427. Panel Discussion: “Sudden or Gradual: Two Paths to Realization?”

Recorded at the Science and Nonduality Conference.

There is a perennial debate in spiritual traditions regarding whether realization is direct (sudden) or progressive (gradual). But is this a false distinction? Realization is often sudden, no matter how many years of practice may have led up to it, and even after realization, most people find that refinement, clarification, and the working out of personal shortcomings continue indefinitely.

Who wouldn’t prefer direct realization to years of purification and practice? But how many examples of purely direct realization can we find? Can a path be both direct and progressive? Is it possible to have a taste of our true nature from the outset, and then spend a lifetime clarifying and embodying it? Also, is there one watershed breakthrough which can be universally agreed upon as final “Realization”, or are there many degrees and stages of realization, each of them important stepping stones in a never-ending journey?

Proponents of the direct path sometimes argue that if we regard spiritual development as progressive, we will forever be anticipating, never arriving. But some spiritual seekers, not appreciating the distinction between understanding and experience, mistake intellectual understanding with enlightenment, and consider themselves “finished” when they are just getting started.

Isa Gucciardi, Ph.D. is the Founding Director of the Foundation of the Sacred Stream, a school for consciousness studies in Berkeley, CA. Isa is also the creator of the spiritual counseling model, Depth Hypnosis, and author of two books, Coming to Peace and Return to the Great Mother. In addition to her teaching schedule that includes teaching classes in Applied Buddhist Psychology, Applied Shamanism, Integrated Energy Medicine and Depth Hypnosis, she has active practices in Depth Hypnosis and Applied Shamanic Counseling in San Francisco, CA. For more information, please see sacredstream.org.

David F. Buckland has a graduate degree in Vedic Science and researches and writes on subjects related to the approach, shift, integration, and embodiment of the stages of enlightenment. This reflects a 40 year unfolding that has been prominent for much of his life. But with a more recent series of profound shifts, the exploration became the life itself. Under the pen name Davidya, he brings ancient teachings into modern life. After many years of research, he published the book Our Natural Potential: Beyond Personal Development, The Stages of Enlightenment in 2017.

Previous Batgap discussions with David:

Michael Rodriguez – Drawing always from his direct experience, Michael speaks with great clarity and compassion about the undivided nature of Life or Consciousness, pointing to reality in a way that is free from dogma, ritual, or adherence to any particular tradition. He also draws skillfully from the world’s wisdom traditions and integrates Jungian psychology, literature, music, and art into his work to address the full range of human potential. He offers meetings, retreats, and private sessions here in the United States and abroad.

Book–Boundless Awareness: A Loving Path to Spiritual Awakening and Freedom from Suffering

Previous Batgap discussion with Michael

Discussion of this video in the Batgap Community Facebook Group.

Summary and Transcript of this interview

Recorded October 22, 2017

YouTube Video Chapters:

  • 00:00:00 – Sudden or Gradual? Two Paths to Realisation
  • 00:04:33 – Understanding the Direct Path
  • 00:09:16 – The Both/And Path of Integration
  • 00:14:10 – The Experience of Self on a Soul Level and Relative Level
  • 00:19:16 – Holding Dual Perspectives in the Awakening Process
  • 00:23:46 – The Continuous Process of Unfolding
  • 00:28:04 – The Momentum of the Old Way
  • 00:32:08 – Dissolution of the Self and Healing
  • 00:36:02 – Genuine Insight vs Mechanical Statements
  • 00:40:36 – The Importance of Healing and Clarity
  • 00:45:00 – Embracing Residual Traumas and Awakening
  • 00:50:25 – Accessing the Core Wound
  • 00:54:27 – The Illusion of Separation
  • 00:58:07 – Resolving the Core Wound of Separation
  • 01:03:00 – Audience Questions
  • 01:05:12 – The Challenge of Embracing the Concept of “No Self”
  • 01:09:37 – The Inability to Grasp the Concept of No Self
  • 01:13:53 – Exploring Different Perspectives
  • 01:17:09 – Clearing Thought Processes and Genuine Expression
  • 01:21:36 – When the Spiritual Path is of No Use
  • 01:26:00 – The Importance of Resonance and Finding the Right Teacher
  • 01:28:44 – The Unified Field of Attaining Enlightenment
  • 01:32:58 – The Beauty of Non-Progression
  • 01:36:49 – An Integration Process of Years
  • 01:41:32 – Sharing Perspectives on Vedic and Buddhist Thought
  • 01:45:31 – The Consciousness of Black Oaks
  • 01:49:30 – A Path of Gradual and Sudden Shifts
  • 01:53:18 – Maintaining the Lightness
  • 01:57:03 – The Journey of Self-Realization and Shifting Realities
  • 02:01:18 – Connecting with the Felt Experience

387. Mukti, Francis Bennett, Loch Kelly: “Emptiness is also Form” (Panel Discussion at the SAND Conference)

On 10/21/2016 at the Science and Nonduality Conference, Loch Kelly, Mukti, and Francis Bennett discuss the paradoxical understanding reflected in the famous Heart Sutra’s saying, “Form is emptiness and emptiness is form. Form is none other than emptiness and emptiness is none other than form.” They have noticed that many people get caught halfway after an initial awakening in a kind of spiritual bypass: stuck in stillness, spaced-out, blissed-in, or attached to the conceptual belief that “I am nobody.” What are the pointers and supports to realize the already manifest life arising out of the unmanifest awareness? They give examples of the fullness of waking up from a limited sense of self to pure awareness, then also waking in to our bodies and waking out to relating and creating in the world. Loch, Mukti, and Francis discuss the importance of the dancing emptiness of embodiment and how to live from open-hearted awareness.

Mukti, whose name means “liberation”, is a teacher in the lineage of Adyashanti, her husband. Together they founded Open Gate Sangha in 1996 to cultivate the awakening of consciousness in those who yearn for truth, peace, and freedom. In teaching, Mukti brings flavors of feminine quietude and nurturing as well as kinesthetic, visual, and precise pointers to Truth. Many speak of her being particularly gifted in her offering of guided meditations. Her keen interest as a teacher is in the revelation of consciousness touching and transforming human experience. She is licensed in acupuncture and certified in yoga instruction. For sample teachings, audio clips and downloads, and further information, visit muktisource.org. AudioBook: The Self in Full Bloom

Previous BatGap interview with Mukti

Francis Bennett entered the Trappist Abbey of Gethsemane in 1981 and in the ’90s subsequently lived at a “daughter house” of Gethsemane in Moncks Corner, South Carolina. Until recently, he was living in a small urban monastery in Montreal Quebec. He has been a “spiritual seeker” during all those years, practicing in the Christian mystical/contemplative Tradition and working deeply with teachers in both the Vipassana and Zen Traditions as well. In 2010 he experienced a profound perceptual “shift” in which he realized the ever-present presence of pure Awareness, which some would call, the Presence of God.

Francis’ book: “I Am That I Am: Discovering the Love, Peace, Joy, and Stability of the True Self“.

Previous BatGap interviews involving Francis:

Loch Kelly, M.Div., LCSW is the author of, Shift into Freedom: The Science and Practice of Open-Hearted Awareness. He is an educator, licensed psychotherapist, and recognized leader in the field of nondual meditation who was asked to teach Sutra Mahamudra by Mingyur Rinpoche and nondual meditation by Adyashanti. Loch has worked in community mental health, established homeless shelters, and counseled family members of 9/11. He is the founder of the non-profit Open-Hearted Awareness Institute. Loch collaborates with neuroscientists at Yale, UPenn, and NYU to study how awareness training can enhance compassion and well-being. For more information, visit lochkelly.org.

Previous BatGap interview with Loch.

Transcript of this discussion

YouTube Video Chapters:

  • 00:00:00 – Introduction
  • 00:01:57 – Introduction to the Discussion
  • 00:03:31 – The Mystery of Our Existence
  • 00:05:34 – The Divine in this Manifest World
  • 00:07:40 – Awakening to Emptiness and Embracing Form
  • 00:09:29 – The Second Operating System of Awake Awareness
  • 00:11:11 – Understanding the Context and Content
  • 00:12:43 – The Interplay Between Form and Emptiness
  • 00:14:07 – Finding the Middle Path and Comprehensive Awakening
  • 00:15:47 – The Process of Integration
  • 00:18:04 – Awakening to the Present Moment
  • 00:20:22 – The Presence of Knowingness
  • 00:22:11 – The Unchanging Presence
  • 00:24:11 – The Fabric of Dancing and Pervasive Awareness
  • 00:26:00 – Awakening to Who We Are
  • 00:27:25 – The Dance of God: Yoga in Action
  • 00:28:44 – Shining the Light of Awareness
  • 00:30:44 – Human Consciousness and Capital C Consciousness
  • 00:32:07 – Anticipation and Suffering in Human Experience
  • 00:33:51 – Form and Emptiness: Identity and Non-Duality
  • 00:35:52 – The Concept of Emptiness in Physics and Spirituality
  • 00:37:21 – The Interconnectedness of All Things
  • 00:39:11 – Different Paths of Awakening
  • 00:41:14 – The Path of Spiritual Practice
  • 00:42:52 – The Three Paths to Awakening
  • 00:44:12 – Touching into our True Nature
  • 00:45:30 – Unlocking our Potential
  • 00:46:48 – Fullness in Divine Intelligence
  • 00:48:30 – Opposites Collapsing
  • 00:50:24 – The Tightrope of Self and No Self
  • 00:51:38 – Locke’s Presentation

373. Adyashanti and Francis Bennett – “The Embrace of Jesus and Buddha”

Adyashanti and Francis Bennett in a public dialog about the parallels and differences between Jesus and the Buddha, as two complementary yet very different models of awakening. Where the Buddha emphasized inner peace and the transcendence of samsara, Christ emphasized embodying divine humanity in the midst of samsara, embracing the human condition in order to serve those who are lost in ignorance.

Adya came to a deeper appreciation of Jesus by way of his study of Zen, while Francis ─ a former Trappist monk turned non-dual teacher ─ came to Buddhism by way of immersion in mystical Christianity.

Adyashanti, is an American-born spiritual teacher and author devoted to serving the awakening of all beings. His teachings are an open invitation to stop, inquire, and recognize what is true and liberating at the core of all existence. Asked to teach in 1996 by his Zen teacher of 14 years, Adyashanti offers teachings that are free of any tradition or ideology. “The Truth I point to is not confined within any religious point of view, belief system, or doctrine, but is open to all and found within all.” He teaches throughout North America and Europe, offering satsangs, weekend intensives, silent retreats, a live internet radio broadcast, and a podcast called Being Unlimited.

Previous BatGap posts involving Adyashanti:

Website: adyashanti.org

Francis Bennett entered the Trappist Abbey of Gethsemane in 1981 and in the ’90s subsequently lived at a “daughter house” of Gethsemane in Moncks Corner, South Carolina. Until recently, he was living in a small urban monastery in Montreal Quebec. He has been a “spiritual seeker” during all those years, practicing in the Christian mystical/contemplative Tradition and working deeply with teachers in both the Vipassana and Zen Traditions as well. In 2010 he experienced a profound perceptual “shift” in which he realized the ever-present presence of pure Awareness, which some would call, the Presence of God.

Francis’ book: “I Am That I Am: Discovering the Love, Peace, Joy, and Stability of the True Self“.

Previous BatGap interviews involving Francis:

Transcript of this discussion

Recorded 10/25/2016 at the Santa Cruz Open Circle.

YouTube Video Chapters:

  • 00:00:00 – Introduction of the Speakers
  • 00:03:33 – Homage to the Enlightened One
  • 00:07:38 – The Full Circle of Awakening
  • 00:11:30 – Embracing the Sorrows of the World
  • 00:14:59 – The Journey of Truth and Unfolding
  • 00:18:23 – The Myth of Suffering and Liberation
  • 00:21:45 – The Meaning of Realization and Freedom
  • 00:25:00 – Finding Truth in Suffering
  • 00:27:58 – Embracing Pain and Sorrow
  • 00:31:43 – Similarities and Differences in Religious Teachings
  • 00:36:01 – Embracing Different Spiritual Perspectives
  • 00:39:47 – The Balancing Act of Masculine and Feminine Energies
  • 00:43:55 – Sheila-ism and the danger of creating your own religion
  • 00:47:40 – The Importance of Earnestness in the Hero’s Journey
  • 00:51:14 – Autonomous Freedom and Authenticity
  • 00:55:15 – The Buddha’s Silence on God
  • 00:59:50 – The Nature of Truth in Buddhism and Christianity
  • 01:02:52 – Importance of Miracles and Siddhis
  • 01:06:59 – Awakening and the Side Effects
  • 01:11:23 – The Importance of Facing Life
  • 01:16:17 – Intimacy with a Dead Saint
  • 01:20:32 – The Role of Guilt in Christianity and Spirituality
  • 01:24:29 – The Role of Guilt and Conscience
  • 01:29:06 – The Illusion of Remaining the Sole Repository of Truth
  • 01:33:37 – Choosing to End Suffering
  • 01:38:02 – Approaching Discomfort with Curiosity
  • 01:42:17 – The Fluctuating Experience of Grace and Selflessness
  • 01:46:11 – The Highlighted Elements of Reality
  • 01:50:58 – A Loss of Personal Relationship with God
  • 01:55:26 – The Evolutionary Nature of God and Denying an End Point
  • 01:59:36 – Vita Dulce Do Et Spes Nostra Salve

Save

Save

Save