129. Trip Overholt

Trip OverholtOn the heels of an awakening experience in 2006 not unlike that of the many avant-garde sages Trip Overholt would later interview, intense interest in the nature of this present reality persisted without let up.  This led to an opportunity to co-host a  radio show, Conversations With Avant-Garde Sages, show casing the wisdom and experiences of unknown sages in our midst. After three years and about 80 interviews, favorite conversations were edited and compiled (by co-host John Troy) into a free Ebook available at  TheWizardllc.com.

A “happiness pragmatist” Overholt’s paradigm shift from the material to the non-physical “spiritual” essence of reality has borne three delicious fruits he’d like to share.  First, there is a comfortability in his own skin, not there prior that has led to more rewarding relationships across the board.  Secondly, radiant causeless joy is available when attention is merely turned inward.  And finally, there is a capacity for seeing the divinity of all others and of the world that allows for more complete engagement of whatever shows up in the present moment.  Heaven on earth is possible here and now and it is Trip’s calling to be a rock of conviction of that possibility for others who find themselves on the pathless path back to themselves.

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Interview recorded 7/7/2012

Video and audio below. Audio also available as a Podcast.

53 thoughts on “129. Trip Overholt

  1. Ah, a refreshing break from the recent norm. How delight-full.

    Nice to cross paths with you, Trip.

    Thank you for providing an opportunity to experience an abundance of resonance with many of your comments.

  2. the possibility of progression is always there but once it becomes an identification or a fixed belief assuming it is needed to be complete, then it becomes the same old desire game again. As the old zen saying goes; wuwei or action without action is the wayless way to go nowhere. oh i love those paradoxes, one of these days im going to build a gateless gate in my yard 😀

  3. Loved the no-spin, no-nonsense dialogue Trip has with Rick.
    Especially his tendency to bring spiritual leaders’ interactions with followers down to a real level, and not some “holy” deified manner.
    We’ve had enough of that for some time and if Trip is correct in that times are changing such that the old school model of master-student isn’t needed for many, who can benefit from a peer type setting, I’m all for that at this point.

  4. Unfortunately, I think we will run out of atmosphere before we will run out of fossil fuel. The United States is in at the start of a cheap natural gas boom due to a technology called “fracking”. There’s enough natural gas say to last 100 years for this country. (And if they discover a technology to economically extract gas from methane hydrates from the ocean depths in the next 100 years, we’ll have enough natural gas to last 1000 years.)

    But resource shortages are still our future, as well as water and food shortages esp. if you add in the demands of the developing world. The Climate issue will force humanity to think of itself as one. Along with the economic crisis, we will be forced to think about how we live on this one earth sustainably, what is a sane and humane lifestyle, what it means to be in community, what are the values that are truly valuable, our connection to the natural world, what it means to be established in Being as the transition unfolds.

    Our generation lives in an “interesting” time. The decisions we make will determine the next step for humanity. Add to this the beginnings of mastery of biological “life” in biotechnology, synthetic biology, the manipulation of the foundations of matter at the atomic scale level in nanotechnology, the potential for information technology to outstrip human intelligence and the melding of machine and human (e.g. Ray Kurzweil), and one can see how fundamental changes can occur in the next few decades. These are actually issues of concern for those with a more “evolutionary” orientation, those involved in Integral Theory (ala Ken Wilbur). I hear the Andrew Cohen will be interviewed next week. Curious what he has to say.

  5. The prevailing evolutionary orientation of addiction… is being brought to your knees… before significant change is seriously entertained and grasped.

    Addiction is our predominant state of mind. IMO.

    Which is why I see us being brought to our knees… in the not too distant future.

    And then real change can begin.

  6. To me it seems you are confusing the Sage with the Saint at times. Ive understood the Sage to simply be one who has permanently disidentified or seen thru the mirage of the separate self or “me” while the conditioning, preferences and genetics of the body mind organism still exist and play out as they will in accordance with source, life intelligence, god or whatever u may call it. The Sage is not a Saint with perfect behavior, it behaves as it does without a sense of authorship or doership and the filter of a separate entity known as “me”, whether that be beautiful or ugly behavior. When concepts of the Saint are intermingled then it turns into self help, psychotherapy and the attempt to improve the life of the “me” and not transcend it or see thru the mirage and divine hypnosis that it is

  7. I have been watching and reading the comments for many months. The comments have been at least as useful as the interviews, so I want to thank you all very much!!! Like many here, I’ve spent a lifetime looking for reality. At the moment, my computer has a virus and will not allow me to type what I want. I look forward to talking with you later!!!

  8. Rick, I have to say, I love your “yes buts”. Great reminders to look at a bigger picture. Thanks for the interview, Rick and Trip ))

  9. @Nigh lily “I have to say, I love your “yes buts”.
    Agreed.

    It was interesting that Trip while insisting he has the same degree realization as some of the other well known realizers, also said that he cannot prove anything. None of this can be “proven” (whatever this means). Experientially, we may know Only This. Yet it cannot be proven that Only This is “ultimate” and “final” (whatever the latter terms mean). A mental conviction and certainty can be deadly in terms of growth. Openness and surrender to the Mystery is the process whereby doors are opened.

  10. I don’t think this word was used, but Trip’s assumption of Totality seems to be more of an affirmation than a description of his experience. It would be another long discussion to debate the value of such a practice.

    Since “doubt is the final barrier” a healthy affirmation can certainly help dispel some parts of doubt. What is another barrier is believing any thought – even the thought of enlightenment. Who is there to be on equal terms with Ramana? Who thinks who is the Ultimate?

    That said, whatever works for someone is how Nature structured it. If it worked for Nisgardatta (anyone have more background on this anecdote?) then it could work for Trip.

    I prefer the dissolve-all-conceptions school. It’s so direct.

  11. Well said Jonathan –
    The Sage and the Saint are often confused..While there are some sages who may be considered saints, such as Ramana Maharshi, the vast majority are not…nor are most saints in the sage category…good you noted the difference…Each plays a role in this leela..Saints represent the highest cultural values of a society and Sages are here to point to that Reality that lies beyond even the Universal..

  12. “The Saint is a man who disciplines his ego. The Sage is a man who rids himself of his ego.” Wei Wu Wei

  13. well put, Wei Wu Wei but I would say “the Sage is the done who sees through the ego”

  14. @Erik “I prefer the dissolve-all-conceptions school. It’s so direct.” This is my preference too. (Talking about “doubt” and “certainty” still seems a bit defensive to me. It’s irrelevant especially when one’s heart orientation is to surrender.)

    @Night Lily “the Sage is the done who sees through the ego”. Yep, this seems to me a more precise explanation.

    I sometimes get the feeling this stuff is so easy to talk about, even beautifully and eloquently on the web. But as the phrase goes, “talk is cheap”. It’s in the actual living of life, in all it’s aspects, in rigorous honesty, that oftentimes is just as revealing, it’s own truth, and it’s own value. Lila has it’s own truth, and it’s own value, else why would it be there? (The question was not meant to incite intellectual speculation, but encourage intuition into a broader possibility.)

    When I watch the NOVA science series on the universe, the images from the Hubble space telescope, I say “wow” in wonderment and amazement, this is even stranger and even more beautiful than I can ever imagine. Even stranger is how some biological entities averaging 5′ or 6′ in height can comprehend the universe, first with the solar system, then the galaxy, then multiple galaxies, then edge of the universe, and now the possibilities of multiple universes, and from the comprehension, be able to make accurate predictions on previously unknown *specifics* to test and expand its understanding.

    While not my natural orientation (which is still largely Non-Dual), I can begin to understand those motivated by a self described “evolutionary impulse”, their critique of the culture bound philosophies of the past. Lets embrace our evolutionary, integral, and tantric brothers and sisters. Nothing is excluded.

  15. I just reread your comment of July 11, 2012 at 11:52 am (above), Jonathan, and want to compliment it for its poignancy.

  16. While not denying the truth on the point to be had on “saints” and “sages”, it’s interesting to me that the mind tends to put things in categories, I guess in this case, inspired by a formulation in traditional literature. It’s an attempt of the mind to make sense of mystery of Lila. Whatever happened to “nothing to land to on”?

  17. Amma was in town this week..I haven’t seen her in many years but I felt her Grace…She casts a sweetness over the city that is palpable from any point one might inhabit…if the heart is open to receiving…Her message – like all divine mothers – is surrender – surrender everything to the Self that we are…all our material and spiritual notions…so that we may be lifted up beyond whatever we can conceive..out of suffering and into the bliss of being..Then we can give back in kind..with tears of gratitude for this precious human life we’ve been given…

  18. I’ve noticed my heart has a very different “logic” or intelligence than my brain. Love makes no sense at all to the brain. Shows the brain to itself that it’s notions are at best partial and that even wanting to “know” can be separation in itself, and may serve another function than actual contact with Reality. Still, I am certainly not anti-mind. But I can also go for the free fall now …

  19. Ernest,
    Beautifully said – A big YES to free falling into the depths of the heart.. The working mind is a useful gift and when relegated to it’s proper place as servant rather than master, there’s no problem..It is part of the totality of being..

  20. Jill and Ernest – This is wonderful insight ,and really succinctly put. The heart trumps the brain every time. I sometimes forget this.

    The mysterious and saintly Omar Khayyam had some things to say on this:

    How long, how long, in infinite Pursuit
    Of this and that endeavour and dispute?
    Better be merry with the fruitful Grape
    Than sadder after none, or bitter Fruit.

    4 stanzas later:

    The Grape that can with Logic absolute
    The Two-and Seventy jarring Sects confute:
    The subtle Alchemist that in a trice
    Life’s leaden metal into Gold transmute.

    Namaste.

  21. Thank you Rick for the fine interview. It was a long one! . Thank you also to your listeners for their feedback.

    The point I want to make is that the age of the guru is over. We are that. Jeez Us? Yep. Whatever Jesus wanted us to understand, he was expecting illiterates to understand and benefit from as he passed through towns. I take him at his word that it was as simple as “Be Still and Know That I Am God” This was not bragging. It was an instruction. Just realize it. When it is realized with conviction the rest takes care of itself. Effortlessly.

    As Love,
    Trip

  22. @Jill “Saints represent the highest cultural values of a society and Sages are here to point to that Reality that lies beyond even the Universal”

    “true compassion and true love is really a natural expression of the the real experience of unity” ~Adyashanti – Radio Webcast – May 09, 2012

  23. Irrulan –
    Yes, I was just making the more ‘apparent’ distinction between the saint and the sage..as they are seen today..but in the end, of course, there isn’t a difference..bhakta and jnana merge in Unity….

    Rather than say the REAL unitive experience, I’d say, the FULLY EMBODIED unitive experience is what naturally expresses both wisdom and Love..This embodiment is what represents the complete expression of human potential..but integration and unfoldment are not instantaneous..

    I’m sure Adya would agree that it takes a while to marinate in THIS – before coming to complete rest in the Self – sans all ego/conditioning – in order to become not only wise, but fully human or rather, ‘humane’…

  24. Re: Saints & sages.

    I had occasion to chat with a man I would consider saint-like a few years ago – Pete Seeger. Here is a man whose social mission of compassion pervades his entire being. Interestingly the conversation occurred not too many months after my own fundamental shift of identity and I was able to discern where he was coming from and how that might differ from the sage’s perspective.

    Pete has, as I said, a deep sense of mission stemming from an awakening in his early career. He loves children as the seeds of a peaceful future. He sees every man as potentially contributing to his progressive causes of peace, environmental responsibility and social justice, from which all will benefit.

    I did not sense that his attention was coming from the liberated Universal perspective, yet he was deeply embedded in the heart. Every word from his mouth was saturated with purpose. You could say that his purpose *is* his life and in that sense he has transcended individuality. Perhaps we could call it a identity with the collective heart.

    Contrasting that with my conversation with Adyashanti that same year, Adya is simply embedded in the Beyond. It seeps out every pore into anyone who gets too close.

    Certainly there may be a saintly sense of purpose as part of the sage’s personality, but the sage element is simply another thing altogether. My heart wells up with love when I think of Pete, but my spirit glides into total peace when I think of Adya.

    So perhaps saintly people can find themselves identifying with a larger entity that the normal corporeal identity that most call self. This can be deeply empowering both for that person and for those who fall under their influence. It’s an interesting area if inquiry…what can people identify themselves as on the way to full dis-identification? And how can these saints then take the next step to freedom?

    Peace.

  25. lol ‘marinate’ that one cracked me up Jill. nice one. It was a cool interview Trip, i njoyed it. Now i imagine an interview where one can only talk back each time a verbal arithmetic question is solved.

  26. Re saints and sages. Over the past day or two my wife and I have been watching videos of Leonard Cohen. What a great and loving presence.

    I am not qualified to discern at what stage of realization he is at, but what radiates from him comes to me as pure Compassion and Love. He so obviously feels the pain of the world, takes it in, blesses it with his heart of wisdom and hands it back to us, transformed.

    He spent much time as a Zen monk.

  27. P.S. – A typical Leonard Cohen quote:

    “I tried to become religious, but cheerfulness kept breaking through.”

  28. I thought this interview was great.. yes, it was a real treat and something different. I love Trip’s humour, and calling out a lot of the accepted ‘guru norms’ that aren’t “normal” at all.
    On the last debated point about whether it’s possible for us to attain that “great state” right now that some teachers seem to have- my view is that even if this isn’t ‘correct’, it might be a lot more helpful to hold this view, rather than the perpetual focus on future attainments (which is mind-stuff anyhow).
    Great interview!

    Cheers,
    Dean.

  29. Thanks all of you again for your comments. Thanks Dionysius. To Heat Seeker I would say this. I cannot argue the value of a great teacher – as an affirmer. Mine has been indispensable. However, I have to make this one observation. I have interviewed about eighty people who have “attained” a degree of spiritual maturity/presence. And then I have met a lot of “seekers” and others in my life who have expended some energy in the pursuit of enlightenment. I can’t give you an exact figure, but I would say 95% of those who enjoy some form of persistent realization resulting in inner peace, came into it by a grace given moment/spiritual experience. Almost all of them went on to receive affirmation from a teacher. ALMOST NOBODY, maybe 5%, are able to go to a teacher without that grace given moment first, and become established as that. What I see is people spending decades with teachers and not enjoying the simple persistent realization that hit me like a 2X4 out of the blue. So I look at that and it sure does seem like a business to me. People are obviously getting some kind of contact high out of their long term association with a teacher. And the teachers often don’t seem to be telling them to go away. I’m not wanting to put down teachers. But I am wanting to shift the current notion away from this idea that you need to spend a lot of time with a teacher. No, what people really need to do is summon up the conviction required to hold onto the possibility that truly, they are already that. That conviction is something you practice every moment of every day. If you are “doing” that the teacher becomes unnecessary. Best to practice being in every moment and hang out with peers in heartfelt sharing than create this illusion for yourself that someone like an Adyashanti has something you don’t have. As long as you maintain that illusion you push the peace that Adya apparently enjoys away from yourself.

  30. “Best to practice being in every moment and hang out with peers in heartfelt sharing than create this illusion for yourself that someone like an Adyashanti has something you don’t have. As long as you maintain that illusion you push the peace that Adya apparently enjoys away from yourself.” – zortacular

    I love the occasional opportunity to be able to exclaim…

    “a(wo)men to that, zortacular”

  31. AAAH – yet another one that Ramana has shed his Grace upon and birthed into being…a deep bow to that Silence which lives in the heart of every man..

  32. Saw this Amma quote and thought it was relevant for our ongoing discussion of the nature of non duality vis a vis living in the world:

    “Children, once realization is attained, some beings merge with eternity. Very few of them come down. Who would like to come down again after having entered the Ocean of Bliss? In order to come down from that state, that state from which there is no return, it is necessary to have something to hold onto, a determined thought, a sankalpa. Only a few who can make that sankalpa to descend will come down.
    That mental resolve is compassion, love or selfless service to suffering humanity. If you do not want to listen and respond to the call of those sincere seekers, and the cry of those who are suffering in the world, and if you want to remain in the impersonal state and do not want to be compassionate, it is alright. You can remain there.
    When you come down, a curtain which you can pull away at any time, is put up by self-will in order to make functioning in this world more smooth and uninterrupted……..Consciously you do not pay any attention to the other side of the curtain…..Yet on and off you do go to the other side, but you manage to come back. The very thought or reminder of the other side can simply lift you there. Once you come down then you play the role well.”

  33. “The point I want to make is that the age of the guru is over.” – Trip

    When I stayed at a rehab hospital for a few weeks last year, I asked an occupational therapist what she thought was the hardest part of her job.

    “Is it getting your patients familiarized with, and willing to use, the various walking aids to re-learn how to walk again (I used a walker the entire time that I was there)?”, I asked.

    “Nah, that’s a relatively easy task”, she responded. “Compared to weaning them off their walking aids so that they could continue to learn to walk without them.”

    Could the same be true for some spiritual walking aids (AKA gurus)?

  34. Peter,
    It’s a good point – who was it that said that anything can start out as nectar, but if used past it’s due date, can become poison..

    That being said, a guru or guide – one who has traversed the spiritual path in depth- can serve an all important purpose until that purpose has fulfilled itself……

    A true teacher, like a good parent pushes the child out of the nest…to let him find his own expression – he doesn’t encourage life-long dependence..but the nearness to the flame – the devotion to the Self in manifest form – can be the sweetest love of all..and can in fact take us deeper into Being..

    Even in the non-dual state I think it’s important to keep bowing down to the Divine in gratitude – as a reminder – so that the illusory ego/mind doesn’t have a chance to rear it’s head and begin to think that it did the enlightening all by itself….we’ve seen enlightened egos and it ain’t pretty..

    The problem only arises when one sees the guru as a ‘person’, then it’s likely that one can get caught up in a devotion that is not real..turning it into a non-productive attachment..Devotion must always be to the satguru – the Self within..that is manifesting without..

    So until we can come to know ourselves as Love, and return it in kind to every living being – until there isn’t a drop of separation between the seeker and the Beloved – until all questions are answered from within – I say why not enjoy the intimacy and sweetness of the relationship of lover and beloved..

  35. I like the open ended option. For those that need gurus, gurus are there. For those that need to be misled, faux gurus are there. For others no guru is necessary. It does seem though that cases of spontaneous awakening without association with a realized soul is uncommon. Still there does seem to be a kind of explosion in the numbers of those that are awakening like it doesn’t take as much as it used to. The Hare Krishnas focus a lot on a saint, I think Chaitanya, who purposely chose to remain in the devotional relationship. If someone wants to, why not let them?

  36. Paulk,

    Of course what you say is true. All of those sorts of relationships with gurus happen and so they are all perfect. The main thing about a guru, it seems to me, is their self perspective. Does he or she think of herself as a teacher with some sort of useful information to convey? I would say the real guru does not accept that role. Ramana Maharshi did not. The guru understands there is really nothing to be taught outside of what life is already teaching. Being established as THAT is being seamless with what is happening “externally” and radically accepting one’s own responses internally – whatever they might be. Could be sticking a knife in the throat of the person that is carting off one’s child to a sex trade or allowing it to happen. One doesn’t know until it is taking place. Thus, a guru has nothing to teach per se because we can never know our responses ahead of time. She has no code of behavior to teach and she has no symbolic information to impart that begins to capture reality. Her gift is her unclouded reflection, her seamlessness with the unfolding NOW and her utter acceptance of her own responses that also unfold naturally. That teaching could be conveyed in silence. Why is it so many students are hanging around their teachers more than a year or two? Could it be the teacher gives them the impression there is a lot to learn? That “enlightenment” is something only available to the few who have passed through the eye of the needle? If the student is ripe and ready, whatever is to be gained by the association can easily be gained in a year. If he is not ready it just goes on and on and on. It is not in the economic best interest of teachers to have graduates. So there is a potential conflict there.

    If Ramana Maharshi were alive today, would it be best to go visit with him for a couple of weeks and soak up his presence and come back to one’s life whatever it is and simply be? Or is it better to hang around Ramana for the contact high years on end. I cannot say, but I will say Ramama eventually kicked his main devotee out of the Ashram for being too devotional to his form.

    I don’t have any answers. All I have is my own experience and it is very limited. I didn’t spend hardly any time at all with someone that considered himself my teacher. I have spent a lot of time with a person that considered himself my friend and simply shared with me. That was so highly productive, I feel an obligation to share that with others.

  37. Zortacular, I get what you’re saying. I too like it when hierarchy is not allowed. Friendship sounds more relaxed than devotee and perhaps that quality invites surrender. But maybe this is a Bhakti versus Jnana thing. Some say the humility generated in the deciple/guru dynamic leads to dropping the ego. The Bhakti thing is kind of inexplicable. One can have this deep longing that comes from nowhere. I like the Ramana example though where he wouldn’t let the devotee be too attached to his form, but I would guess that was specific to that guy while others might have been allowed to stay.

  38. Just a word about Masters – an excerpt from James Sloman’s, classic, ‘Nothing’…

    “A Master is not necessary for the true master is inside us..But the inside master is, in a sense, still asleep, so the outside master is needed..She simply creates situation after situation until we begin to wake up and become aware, until we begin to see the true nature of our situation..She surrounds us with a fragrance to arouse us out of our slumbers and dreams.”

    “Once we begin to become aware, then she assists us to avoid the various traps and attachments that can arise…And a true master eventually assists us to see into the nature of perhaps the greatest attachment of all – the attachment to the master..Ultimately, even the master must be transcended”..

    A Master is not necessary, but desirable..For while we’re asleep, we’re always dreaming that we’re awake..To dream that we’re awake is the best way to stay asleep..The mind’s best defense is to imagine that it’s already gone, that we’re already awake or enlightened..Without the disturbing fragrance of a master, our slumbers may continue for quite a while”..

    “What’s the master doing? Actually he is not teaching at all, for there’s no doctrine or body of knowledge to convey..That is why a master never really gives an answer, but simply destroys the question..Because he is not out to teach us some knowledge..Instead he is out to destroy our mind”..

    “The effort of the master is to pull all supports out from underneath us until the mind has no place left to stand..All answers just fill our mind again so how can a master give us answers? And since he’s not giving answers, he’s inexhaustible, he can go on forever..A body of knowledge is limited, but a master is unlimited..He knows nothing; he has attained to perfect ignorance, so he can keep on talking for all eternity and never exhaust the subject.”

  39. Very true Steve- THIS is not ‘necessarily’ found in satsang with Pamela or Neelam or any of the quality teachers of today…What they are, are just excellent conduits for Grace – a more direct way to meet Ramana or the Christ Consciousness within…..

    As HS said, in the end, it’s the sincerity and honesty of the seeker that brings a body to whatever is needed to awaken..and as long as we stay open to whatever opportunity presents itself, we’re good..

    I think you’d enjoy Sloman’s ‘Nothing’ book…It’s a brilliant yet simply written truth.. about all the ways the mind tries to deceive us…James simply and clearly deconstructs the ego’s insidious and systematic attempts at survival…whether it’s having us run from teacher to teacher never committing, or clinging to practices and teachers out of misguided loyalty or fear – or even just resisting all teachers and outside help….

    The truth is, the mind never wants to get rid of itself -and in fact, it actually can’t..no technique, however beautiful, is up to the task of doing so..because an illusory object like the ego/mind can never really affect anything..so who and what will attempt the annihilation?..That’s when practice ends..in that preliminary realization..

    The transmission of Silent Mind, which stops the mind in its tracks – stops it from spinning out tales of woe or bliss – is what can actually outwit the mind and beat it at its own game..An alchemical reaction takes place between teacher and student when this Vast Silence is shared…IT does the work and no teaching or practice is really necessary..

    This Final Silence which is pure Grace, is the only thing more powerful than mind..As long as we think we can do this ourselves, we haven’t seen through the mind’s deception..The eyes cannot see themselves..We can come to a heightened Self-Awareness through practice, but that’s not enlightenment..

    Of course there’s no such thing as individual will or ‘willfullness’ to force us to go anywhere or do anything or see anyone, but there is such a thing as ‘willingness’..This willingness is not born of the will which is another name for mind or ego -It’s actually a gift from Grace.. It’s the clarity and humility to realize – I can’t do this alone – please help me God…That’s why suffering has been such a great teacher for many of us – it brings us to our knees so we can at least be willing to surrender into the unknown…….

    I’ve found along the way, that whatever we are resisting mightily, is exactly what we need to go toward..
    Sending love to you my friend..

  40. Stevearino-
    no pressure here..sorry if it sounded that way – You’ve said many times that you don’t believe an outside teacher is necessary and I was just sharing that often it is a huge help.. certainly was for me even though I was pulled from within..needed both the unmanifest and manifest guru to go all the way..as did most of the teachers I know..in fact, all of them..

    We’re not all Ramanas unfortunately, so sans mountain – and in case anyone was listening who was sitting on the fence about contacting a final teacher, I just wanted to make the case for it as I always do…that’s all…

    I’m very happy that you’re happy and for what it’s worth, I see a wonderful change in your posts recently.. less quotes from Ramana – and more Steve – and only want to encourage you to deepen more and more..however that occurs..

  41. Interesting thread. I asked to be copied and I’ve been following the posts. I like what Jill wrote:

    Is there still conditioning being resolved? Yes. Is there any confusion between what that is and who I am? No.

    That sums the point being made in the interview. I know what I am. It took a few years to fully accept it but it’s rock solid now. The persona does what it does. Doesn’t stain the mirror. So I don’t need a teacher. It’s all about conviction. It’s true, if fate intends it, close, prolonged association with an established mentor sometimes bears fruit. But weekends/retreats with Adya are not that. The value of the association with the established mentor is that the alchemy takes place in the most ordinary of moments, over a prolonged association. These associations happen when they are meant to happen.

  42. Therefore, looking for a teacher, attempting to get whatever it is that they get, is a contrivance. You get it when you are meant to get it. Theparadigm shift from the material to the non-material happens when it happens. Til then, the best thing you can do is live your life to the hilt. Exhaust your materialism. Then the shift takes place of its own, gracefully. No need for the teacher.

  43. Hi Trip —
    It’s interesting to note that those who ‘apparently’ awakened without a teacher come forth with the notion that a teacher is not needed, and those who have awakened with a teacher, think that’s the way to go..We then teach from what we know..how it was for us, and then others listening resonate with either point of view..
    .
    I think that we can both agree that this thing we call awakening – can happen at any time any place any how…at the bus stop – at the movies – changing a diaper..I’ve heard it all – the 39th step turns into the 40th – etc etc.. – but probability says – when a body is in the field of heightened awareness – around one who is of Silent Mind – where unconditional Love reigns – there is a quickening – an enlivenment of the physiology – so I’d say the likelihood of it happening in that arena, rather than on the bus, is far greater…

    This Silent Grace that the teachers from Ramana or Adya’s lineage or Nisargadattas’s people are transmitting to the world is not some sort of woo woo or something someone is projecting or injecting into another’s body – no one is doing anything deliberately – but if we are familiar with Silence – and not of the walking dead, we can surely feel that something alchemical occurs and it is quite powerful..and I maintain..ultimately transformative.. –

    Even through e-mails or postings on line -if one is sensitive -the Silence of an awake one can be felt..and can awaken a ripe seeker..mysteriously – Up close and personal of course it’s even more engaging..and yes many may need more time spent with Silent Mind on retreats etc – than others, but eventually if the seeker is sincere, IT wins..

    Because the final awakening here happened in the Presence of a teacher – naturally I’m a firm believer in putting oneself as close to the fire of Truth as we dare..Lord knows people don’t have all the time in the world to just hit the local bar and wait..

    and even after awakening – while the conditioning is still dissolving – lest the ego rears it’ head – I think it’s good to drink of the wisdom and clarity that an awake guide is offering – until we are completely empty of self – clear of all delusions – in love with all that is – and all questions are answered from within..

    I’m sure your ongoing association with the Wizard – and his Presence in your life – had a little something to do with your awakening, no?

    .

  44. HS
    I think the ego/mind is capable of asserting itself at any time during the de-conditioning process…We are always vulnerable to this in the space between awakening and freedom..Desires and avoidances arise based on our conditioning that simply do not serve..and the energy brings them all to the surface..to be seen through…not a bad thing at all..

    I wouldn’t exactly call it re-rooting of ego- since it was never really rooted to begin with – just an illusion that fights for survival at times -so checking in with a teacher seems to make sense until there is an automatic momentum in place that is always seeing through the pitfalls..After a certain point, the life’s drama, which is all mind created, ceases..

    I would say from observation and experience that the ego/mind is much less likely to assert itself and cause much trouble post awakening if – A, there’s been a true and profound awakening – and B, the commitment to Truth is strong enough to override any arising..

    I don’t think you my friend have anything to worry about..you are true – and your teacher is – so not a problem..

    On a personal note – when some arrogance arose here from my TM background after awakening with Pamela – and I started questioning whether this was the highest level, blah blah blah – she encouraged me to go to Neelam’s satsang..

    So I did..and one night I raised my hand and started in with my TM blather about higher states of consciousness, and Maharishi said this or that etc etc..Neelam just gave me a look that I still remember to this day…She didn’t say a word, just stared at me for maybe only a few minutes but that seemed a lot longer..The burning was tremendous..throughout the head – and the Silence was profound – I was immediately reminded of who I was and the brief delusion I’d been under…thinking there was anything other than this LOVE…

  45. Jill:
    Really well put!
    I’d like to put it on general or the latest interview so more people will see it.
    Minus the me part.
    🙂

  46. It seems to me that Trips own words are that he is locked into a view point of how one should proceed that is exploring each others Divinity without a teacher is best. Of course this one view point invites all the differing ones. I have been part of groups that formed from being together with each other in a teachers presence and they did not work very well for very long. Usually imploded into conflict of opinions and judgments after a few meetings. I have found it beneficial to notice how my energy is different in a realized beings presence and looking athttps://batgap.com/wp-admin/profile.php what is really different. Maybe if a number of people in a group are already established in non dual reality then it would be different but then that would not be too different than being with a teacher. Anyone who doesn’t believe a teacher is important to awakening has likely never really worked with one.

  47. Thanks rick the honesty and sincerity of this interveiw was most fullfilling and beneficial for me so far….I love it 🙂

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