122. Ellie Roozdar, 2nd Interview

Ellie RoozdarThis is my second interview with Ellie. You might want to listen to the first one before listening to this one.

Ellie is a happily married woman for 29 years. She has been blessed, with two beautiful children—a lovely daughter and a sweet son.

She has graduated from SUNY at Stony Brook and has been teaching mathematics in high school and community colleges. After changing her career, she worked in Information Technology as a Quality Assurance Manage for many years.

Since childhood, she was seeing herself as a vision, which was not associated with the body at all. The question was arising, “Who am I?” This was never answered and it was there in her heart for a long time…
Since the year 2001, she has been inspired:

  1. To get to know who she is
  2. To find what she is searching for

For the past few years, she has had wonderful experiences by “going within,” meditating and discovering the Truth. The Truth reveals itself to itself by itself.
She would like to share these experiences with you.
She hopes that by reading her story, you also get inspired to “go within” and “discover” who you really are, and also find the authentic joy that resides within.

This is simply a discovery, not to become anyone or anything. Remember: Joy is already there, it just needs to be uncovered.
We learn to go within and to be a witness of the “nothingness.” It may be frightening at the beginning. All our life we want to be somebody and add something to ourselves and now we will face “nothingness.”
She wishes you all patience and the best of luck on this path. Please know that this is the best thing and the most important thing that you can do for yourself.

You will be happy that you took time and discover your True Self.

Love and light!

The Skype sessions that I arrange with the seeker, if they are ready is as following:

“Walking meditation” is a Guided meditation, by closing the eyes and  have this journey within. Symbolically, hand in hand  walking together, to recognize and identify the Truthdirectly. The one and only Truth that which the silence/stillness is pointing to. The Truth that has been overlooked all along, will be recognized by itself. This is awakening.

Ellie’s website

First interview with Ellie

Interview recorded 5/12/2012

Video and audio below. Audio also available as a Podcast.

63 thoughts on “122. Ellie Roozdar, 2nd Interview

  1. I just have to jump in here one more time to say:

    Absolutely Beautiful Ellie!! You hit on every major point of Ultimate Truth…
    – that the final spiritual journey isn’t for everyone
    – that it involves a death of the character or false sense of ego
    – that most people just want a better life not the end of the character
    -that no practice can bring one to ultimate fruition
    – that Grace is the ultimate decider in that regard, but that ‘willingness’ to die to oneself plays a huge role
    – that willingness is determined by spiritual maturity, a weariness with the search
    -that this process is one of demolition of the character – not development of it
    – that there is no purpose or free will for an illusory character
    -that one’s true purpose will be revealed when you know who you are
    -that feeding the mind more and more knowledge will not help you know the Totality.
    -that experiencing the full blown Kundalini process is not necessary for knowing oneSelf..
    -that the mind’s idea of emptiness (and fear of it) is not the true experience of it
    -that running from teacher to teacher is not helpful..and can be confusing..and is just a putting off of realization
    -that emotions arise in the state of liberation but they arise within the space that we are – they happen WITHIN us, but not TO us, so ultimately living as the Totality, they are not felt in the same way..
    -that trying to purify the character and resolve every emotional issue prior to waking up is an endless process, so better to capture the fort (the Self) and see what remains..
    – that ‘Who am I’ is the only important question to ponder.
    -that this Mystery cannot be named or defined only lived..and it is lived in peace and joy and love and bliss..
    -that when all is seen as the Self, there is no judgment bad or good – but the Totality can readily know if another is speaking from that essential Truth
    -that intimacy and com-passion (with passion) are hallmarks of the enlightened
    -that Silence is golden and is the true pointer back to the Self..and attention to it, brings fulfillment
    – that being with an enlightened one in the Silence, can serve as a catalyst for dropping the character
    – that a coach or guide can be most useful in helping one discern truth from untruth and navigating the way
    -that witnessing is a natural process of attention toward the Self at a certain stage, but witnessing is not done by the character..and is not the ultimate state
    -that there is still separation in God Consciousness ie., me and my beloved..
    -that strong beliefs stand in the way of realization..especially the belief in the character.
    -that as Rumi says – the whole journey is thus:
    seeing it, declaring it, loving it and living it..

    Thanks for your honesty and courage and generosity of spirit – that’s the only doorway I know to the kingdom of heaven..

    I hope to contact you one day to perhaps have tea -since we both live in New York and work the same way – free of charge and out of love..
    from my heart to yours..

  2. Listening to the 1st interview with Ellie Roozdar last October I got such a rush of energy. Some beings are peaceful and some sound even depressed upon awakening but Ellie was so full of life and excitement. I contacted her soon after and she was so unbelievably helpful and available and genuine. As a result, she greatly helped me see the Truth. I am happy that you interviewed her once again because Ellie’s energy is very catching and joyful.

  3. Thank you Rick for all you put into these interviews..Everyone appreciates the tender love, and clarity you bring to each..

    and Heat Seeker – will try to check in now and then if I feel moved to do so…miss you all – but others need to speak too..felt I was monopolizing the blog..

    I couldn’t help join in today though -Ellie was so very clear on the essentials and wanted to reinforce what she said…just loved hearing her speak Rumi in Farsi…

    I’m so happy you are pursuing the Truth that you are…via Neelam and Adya..the mother/father Divine Spirit embodied in both of them..-great guides -no need to look further..

    I like what you’ve been writing lately…honest and insightful – so yes I can tell something is stirring..If you stay with it, honor it, I promise it will never leave you..
    sending love –

  4. If that conviction & enthusiasm doesn’t convince “the character” to relax and drop in, not sure what would!

  5. Her background as a high school math teacher serves her well. (Plenty of experience of explaining stuff to people …)

  6. Thank you for the vid Ising…one of my favorite groups back in the day was the Loving Spoonful…used to cut class to see them play in the Boston Commons while in college there.
    I hope all is well with you – and I’m so glad to see you are speaking your beautiful wisdom more and more through both prose and poetry…that’s part of ‘declaring it’ that Rumi speaks of..
    Love you..

  7. Jill:
    Please continue to stick around here and comment in your unabashed, uniquely insightful way that everyone values.

  8. Ellie was kind enough to give me some telephone time with her last Thursday. I had many questions, mainly to do with the weariness of the search and the fear of taking the “leap.”
    This was of great help. Ellie showed me clearly the games my mind is still playing, and held them up for me to see. She offered to stand with me and see if I am ready to run into the ocean waves.
    After we hung up my ego went into defense mode for a couple of hours, then that subsided. The next day I knew something had shifted, and was feeling lighter, brighter and more free. I think Ellie shook something loose and it dropped away, much to my relief.
    No, I’m not an enlightened master yet, but look forward to the next talk with Ellie. Just having a conversation with somebody who is so crystal clear causes big changes.

    Thank you Ellie, thank you Rick.

  9. I need an answer……..I’m having trouble accepting there is no free will. If that is the case, what is the point? If source is doing it all, then why try? If murderers are merely ignorant; playing their character and source is doing it all, then that means source is ignorant. Is it not that source or God has given birth to us and we are Gods in the making? I gave birth to my children but they do not always do what I want. They have free will and make choices. So confusing.

  10. Wow, that woman is *really* embodied!

    One of the most interesting bits I got out of this interview was the suggestion that the identity continues after death of the individual identity, but it becomes identified with the Totality. “I, as the totality, playing the role…” Anyone have any comments on this?

    I also find the analogy of ego death and physical death to only hold true to a certain level. In physical death you have to let go of the name and body shape that you have known yourself to be, but there is certainly the possibility of the awareness continuing and carrying its subtle beliefs and conditioning with it into whatever experiential realm it goes. Death of the individual (ego) is more of a letting go of even the concept of ‘me’ and, as such, is a much more profound death…and birth.

    Nice to hear from you, Jill.

  11. Brenda – These questions often run through my mind too. Sometimes they stop running through my mind. What a relief that is! Cheers, Larry

  12. Yes, Larry……what a relief when they stop. And I have become so fluid that the characters are constantly changing. ha! Who am I now? There MUST be some freewill involved……….I hope.

  13. Yes, Larry..such a relief when it ceases. But here we all arel playing characters…..you, ,me, Rick, Ellie. I have become so fluid that I don’t know anything. ha! I switch characters constantly……so there must be freewill.

  14. Hi Erick,
    I wouldn’t exactly call it an ‘identity’ that continues after the death of the ego..If it does survive, we in trouble…Then we would have an enlightened ego…some remnant that claims liberation for itself..

    Declaring ‘I Am That’ is just a way of expressing the inexpressible shift of consciousness that occurs, but really no ‘I’ to speak of, or latch on to post liberation….

    Perhaps initially, there’s a tendency to glop onto something else – some spiritual identity – to replace the ego identity that we have seen through..This can happen shortly after we encounter the Vastness and feel a bit at sea, but as we come to rest more deeply, it becomes unnecessary to go around the neighborhood announcing, I AM THE TOTALITY -We become accustomed to greater and greater expansion and the body adapts to that..

    We come to trust that all is well and that the Universe is running the show just fine without our vain attempts to rise up and intercede..We see that IT always was the ‘doer’ but for a moment in time, we had the crazy notion that we were..

    So I would say, that post liberation, there’s a ‘momentum’ that continues after the death of the ego, but not a discernible identity…we hopefully don’t LAND somewhere as Papaji was fond of saying…

    .Some call this momentum the parabdha karma – the ‘destiny’ of a particular nervous system that continues to play out it’s role in the Leela..until it is done and the body falls away..

    Speaking of Death -one of my favorite topics – along with Love – wasn’t that a Woody Allen movie – what you said about the profundity of ego death was very true…that there are no beliefs or conditioning to carry on as they were just part of the apparent individuality – so none survive to invite afterlife experiences or notions of rebirth etc.etc….because the mental imaginings by an apparent individual have ceased….

    It’s funny but the very thing that humans fear most – surrendering into the Vastness of Being or one’s true nature – is paradoxically, the very thing that takes away all fear of non-existence…thereby eliminating the very basis of everyday survival fears..
    What a relief on all counts!!..

    This is what transformation is really about -because until this falling away of ego occurs – we can’t relax or rest fully – always either consciously or unconsciously fearing our own death or that of someone close to us – or worrying about finances and having enough this or that – even perhaps worrying as many are today -about the end of the apparent world -and getting those survival kits together –

    So death is always shadowing us.. and being free of the fear of it, is what liberation is all about..Then when the time comes, the dropping off of the body is merely a formality…

  15. IMO freedom is a feeling, if you feel free you are free. Don’t believe you should feel limited in any way and you are free to feel freedom.

  16. Larry, sorry for the repeat message. I’m new to this posting thingy. I appreciate your thoughts.

  17. irrulan; I can resonate with “if you feel free you are free”. I have read many Seth books and agree with his view that we create our own reality with our beliefs.

  18. Brenda – Yes, I’m brand new to this too, and it’s so much fun. Re the thoughts and the charachters we play, I’m right there with you on that. Actually would like to let the whole thing go, it’s really a crock… Cheers, Larry

  19. Jill…

    Perhaps the imagined annihilation that people fear in physical death is closer to what happens in ego death.

    And thanks for the clarification on identifying with the totality.

    Ellie raises some interesting points with her fingers analogy. I was wandering through the grocery store tonight allowing myself to shift into “everyone and everything is part of what I am” mode. It was totally joyful. The barriers between everything fell down into a lively game of love. What used to be scary was now uniquely entertaining. The big guy with the freaky tattoos…the fellow with the really shiny bald head…the fat lady trying to keep her breasts in her shirt. It was all Self entertaining self. Just a glimpse, really but fun.

    All right, I’m going back into my cave now. 🙂

  20. Hmmm let me rephrase that Brenda – not a crock in a bad way, but more a feeling of – wouldn’t it be great to let go of the charachter thing too …

  21. Thanks for another great interview Rick.

    I appreciated the way Ellie didn’t give us anything to grasp in the way she answered the questions. It all kept coming back and pointing to the same thing and not allowing the “me” character to take anything and run with it.

    Beautiful teaching, thanks Ellie.

  22. If it helps. re what Jill stated, “Perhaps initially, there’s a tendency to glop onto something else – some spiritual identity – to replace the ego identity that we have seen through.” What happened here after the initial awakening experiences I discovered that identification was grouped around the “I am”. the sense of existence, aliveness, or presence that we initially feel when we turn inwards. Dis=identifying from mind and body seemed obvious enough, but tricky mind regrouped around the sense of existence. Or perhaps it had always been strong there, not sure, but I had to look and move beyond that sense of Presence to Silence. Before that silence, came and went of its’ own accord, now there is easy access to it.


  23. irrulan:
    “IMO freedom is a feeling, if you feel free you are free. Don’t believe you should feel limited in any way and you are free to feel freedom.”

    On the relative level, and from the perspective of duality, if you say I feel alive this morning, or I feel free as a bird today, then by all means. Enjoy. But…..from the non-dual perspective, “feeling” free is not the same as being Free. Whereby the mego (me/ego) dissapears forever – that is true Freedom. Perhaps others more qualified, will comment further. I speak only from book knowledge, intuition, and limited experience.

  24. Hello-
    Really enjoyed this interview, partly for Ms. Roozdar’s way of expressing herself and her vision, and partly for the Q & A format. Hearing a string of questions addressed in this way was extremely helpful, as the thread of Ms. Roozdar’s method of guidance ran clearly and very simply throughout the interview.
    If I may be so bold, I, for one, would really like to hear more installments of BATGAP like this one, Q & A style, with past interviewees. The “life-story and philosophy” approach is also great, but this episode seemed to really bring to life the actual message behind the person.
    Thanks again, Rick- You’re doing tremendously valuable work, sir!
    And thanks to Ms. Roozdar for the elegant and unique expression!
    Here’s to the Totality!

  25. Not so much ego announcing itself as much as redefining a sense of self to include the universe and the silence. Just a step on the way, I guess. A gentle knowing that the boundary between individual “I” and universal existence is artificial. I’d guess the next step would be to let go of even that identity and flow ever more deeply into the Undefinable.
    Keep singing, ising…keep is-ing. Thanks.

  26. @Heat Seeker
    At its foundation being has the quality of ‘self emphatic feeling consciousness’, its aware of itself as completion. And completion feels free by definition. On the other hand completion is based on understanding or recognising. Its a synthesis of the rational and emphatic parts. So if one feels sad but recognises the not-sad around it one still feels free. Imo being free is the same as feeling free and recognising that. Neither feeling nor understanding can be left out of the equation.

  27. What Ellie says is so beautiful and pure.
    And the heart of her message as I hear it is what all great teachers say – sit down, close the eyes, go into the silence. Do it as much as you possibly can (as she did.) And then, gradually, in the right way, in the right sequence, everything opens up.
    The understanding of the mind as to what is happening is also important, to have peace and acceptance and inspiration.
    But in the end it always comes back to the same – “Be still and know that I am God.”

  28. I guess when I run out of exsistance, I won’t exist anymore. This whole thing is very strange.

  29. “But in the end it always comes back to the same – ‘Be still and know that I am God.'” – Laurence


    And The Breath is a wonder-full key to the door of stillness.

  30. Ellie is one of the most captivating speakers I’ve ever heard. Thank you, Rick and Ellie.

  31. This came to my mail this morning from Writer’s Almanac. I love poetry…poets are usually on to something; and this struck me a a very non-dual view.

    Excerpt from “An Essay on Man”
    by Alexander Pope

    ALL are but parts of one stupendous whole,
    Whose body Nature is, and God the soul;
    That, changed through all, and yet in all the same,
    Great in the earth, as in th’ ethereal frame,
    Warms in the sun, refreshes in the breeze,
    Glows in the stars, and blossoms in the trees,
    Lives through all life, extends through all extent,
    Spreads undivided, operates unspent:
    Breathes in our soul, informs our mortal part;
    As full, as perfect, in a hair as heart;
    As full, as perfect, in vile man that mourns
    As the rapt Seraphim, that sings and burns:
    To him no high, no low, no great, no small—
    He fills, he bounds, connects, and equals all….
    All nature is but art, unknown to thee:
    All chance, direction, which thou canst not see:
    All discord, harmony not understood;
    All partial evil, universal good.

  32. intentional 🙂 cause actually nothing can be left out of the equation, wich is also everything. But that leaves no room to say anything about it. Talking creates a relative perspective wich shifts by bumping the boundaries that relativity gives and also the pull of something deeper. Yet untill we have met those boundaries they remain invisable, and we all have met different ones, hence discussion.

  33. Very beautiful and very clear message! Thank you Rick and Ellie!
    Ellie’s stages in her journey correspond very much with my own experience..
    it’s always so interesting to hear it articulated in a slightly different way..

    I just got back from a visit with my family in Europe who I hadn’t seen in a few years. I forgot who said it but someone said that if you want to check how enlightened you are, spend a week with your parents. Well I just spend 9 days with them and it was so interesting to see how there is truly resting happening and the Whole is seen, while the body-mind got triggered in some situations. These were the times where the body contracted slightly and this “Vision”, as Ellie puts it, was never obstructed- but to be honest there were also a couple of times ( it lasted for a few seconds to a few minutes) where I ,as Existence, got entranced into identifying with this little finger character again. My question to Ellie, Jill and to all of you who have the Vision: Do you still fall into the trance once in a while? As Ellie said, these bodies of ours carry conditioning and therefore will be responding to certain situations- I would say in my own experience 99% of the time it is seen through right then and there, and no acting out has to happen, but there are these moments where we as awareness/consciousness get hypnotized. Obviously I also see how the momentary trance is also part of the play and that I can have fun with the momentary UNCONSCIOUS dream. What is all of your experience with that?
    Oh, and by the way, Jill and Ellie, I live in New York too : )

  34. Leelaji –
    That was lovely to hear – thank you for sharing so honestly- and to answer your question – of course there are still triggers here – but as you said, they don’t have the impact and subsequent reaction because they are seen almost simultaneously with the arising of them..

    It is not merely a detachment from what is arising, or even an understanding that momentary ignorance is present – which is found more in the witnessing state, but rather due to the quality of Love that permeates…Compassion seems to be the true buffer in terms of not responding to lapses in consciousness..We see ‘other’ as just an aspect of ourselves – so it’s a gift when we get to see through them, where we are still ‘holding’…

    B. Katie used to say when asked why she still was teaching students after so many years – and she said, ‘there are still pieces of myself that have not been fully integrated’….Our families are even better mirrors for us..

    I’ve been with this a long time and in my opinion, there is no perfect state where we are 100% DE-conditioned..and completely integrated..Self Love is ongoing…As they say, enlightenment is instantaneous – but Self-realization is endless and that’s the beauty of it..

    If you are in and around NY, and want to write to me privately…Rick has my e-mail..
    Love to you..

  35. If there are still triggers that repeatedly take a person fully unconscious or totally reactive, then that is not freedom.

    Techniques that ignore, distract, delay, deny or avoid a trigger that continues repeating itself are all a form of spiritual bypassing. Trying to maintain any particular ‘spiritual state’ or behavior is also a subtle form of bypassing.

    Ram Dass in his documentary movie about his stroke titled “Fierce Grace” starts out announcing “I failed the test. I have a lot of work to do.”
    Dealing with the trauma and physical loss and injury from a stroke, he got triggered and freaked out. There was no resting with the absolute or divine love. I recall that he credits the love of his passed away Guru which helped him heal and grow from the experience.

  36. So true Valentino – the more we can rest in the Self – the more we call forth Love – and the less reactive we are….hence greater and greater freedom…

  37. I think Neelam’s ‘Past is present’ teaching can be quite useful on how to handle triggers.

    Transcribed from her batgap interview.. she starts talking about this at 1 hour 14min in the video:
    When past is present, we can either be HERE or NOT.

    And we can be Here, and being Here sometimes means often times, to experience something that is DIFFICULT..
    Because that is the reason that past is still active, because it has not been experienced before. It still has momentum, and appears vital and important and useful in some way.

    So seeing that, recognizing that, and saying: “Okay, Can I be Here?” Sometimes means, experiencing things that are Difficult. …
    That is what allows us to stay in our nature…
    It’s either. You know. You’re able to experience it and it never comes back again, or you have to experience it many many many MANY times…
    Because that’s it’s momentum, but every time you experience it, the momentum lessens.

  38. Absolutely Valentino – and happily, there is a point as Neelam would agree, when we are resting deeply in our true nature – where this process becomes automatic because of our devout willingness to be with everything, and resist nothing, so a troubling issue just rises and quite naturally dissolves back into itself by itself..

  39. In Neelam’s batgap interview, it seems that she clearly disagrees with the ‘process becomes automatic’ theory, when Rick actually asks a question with a similar assumption.

    Also in her explanation, she seems to clearly state, that she still has personal experiences of Past is Present, and it doesn’t seem like vigilance and willingness to be here are pointers toward an ‘automatic process’.

    These are interview excerpts starting around 1:13:15
    Somebody ask Papaji, Do you still have to be vigilant? and he said: With every Breath!

    Because you don’t know. NOBODY KNOWS! Right? There’s NO END! End is an idea.

    So the embodiment is a real truthful living of what we know is true. That includes body, mind, emotion, sensation, expression in the world, it includes EVERYTHING. That all your interactions are in congruency with what you know. Right? With what you REALLY Know, NOT with what you Think. Right?

    .. Rick “Does it eventually become second nature, like riding a bicycle? Does it become so ‘Automatic’ that I don’t even think about it? ”

    Neelam- I would say in my experience, NO.
    Because presence is your nature, so there’s nothing that you have to do about that ever, ever. right?

    However, in my own experience, there is a lot of stillness. Right?
    *** However there are times that Past is Present. AND BOY Am I Aware of it when that happens. ***
    So now, the question: Is there still, you know, an ongoing Willingness to be HERE?

    Past is present, and Can you remain in that Inner Surrender? you know? Can you remain, NO Matter What?

    and that’s sometimes difficult.. that’s why it’s called past, because it has it’s own momentum and importance. That wants to tell you, That maybe there is something to listen to. Right?

  40. Valentino – some misunderstanding – I’ve known Neelam for many many years – She and Pamela were my direct teachers back in the day – same Self – so I do know of what she is speaking…and I think we’re all on the same page… no conflict…all in the interpretation..

    So let’s get clear on how we might use the term automatic.. It doesn’t mean no vigilance -which is translated as the holy act of keeping vigil – it just means that in a deeply surrendered state, when we are resting in our true nature -we are always keeping vigil – Awareness is omnipresent and always willing to see and meet what is arising –

    So it becomes a ‘natural’ habit to operate in this manner… and since there’s no effort involved by a separate ‘someone’ – – even if potent circumstances appear, they are instantly recognized, attention is given, and then apparently are dissolved back into the Self….

    That’s been the experience here ..but I’ve been with this a very long time..The good news is that karmic momentum does lose its grip as our willingness to not avoid anything increases…and at some point, all practices such as Inquiry become a natural part of us – not a separate doingness..

    When a teacher is doing an interview or making a tape, she is speaking to a general audience..I invite you to take a private course with Neelam and ask her your questions directly..

  41. @ Jill,

    Yes, that is so true about the love/compassion that permeates…with the “Whole Vision” operating, it is almost delicious to be with all that arises… and yes, so true about seeing others as an aspect of ourselves and that being such an opportunity to see where we are not fully surrendered…
    Thank you for sharing about your experience.

    I was mostly curious about the notion that according to Ellie “once the drop has dropped, “once you recognize yourself as source, the hypnosis drops”, “it will not come back as a person again”. “As long as you know who you are,you don’t identify in the play again”.
    I was wondering if she truly never identifies with her little finger character again, even for a few seconds or minutes..

    and yes, i would love to write to you. I live in Manhattan and I will ask Rick for your email


    my question wasn’t so much about “handling triggers”.

    “Resting” is not about “bypassing anything”! There is no problem with being with whatever arises. Of course some arisings are easier to be with then others….as you so mentioned the Fierce Grace that arose for Ram Dass in his stroke… yes, very humbling indeed are those kind of experiences! And yes, we are being tested by life for sure, how surrendered we truly are. Every day, I see these amazing opportunities to let go more and more and more..it seems to be never ending…and YET, in the midst of all that there IS RESTING HAPPENING. No technique, no delay, no deny….it is just happening by itself.

    In my experience, as soon as there is some sort of conclusion by the mind, to “having gotten somewhere”, we are being hit on the head by life to show us, that there is no place to land. Ever! That’s where I have been hit with Fierce Grace! And to me that is what Papaji meant by Vigilance. It’s not that the body mind has to be vigilant all the time to “remember”. It’s to be vigilant about “landing”, about believing any conclusions.

    I don’t know exactly what Neelam meant when she said what she said with words, but in my own experience, there is a dropping back that happens, that is not a going to sleep…it’s the opposite it is more awake than ever….it’s not the ego mind that is vigilant, but Existence Itself! So it feels very effortless. Peaceful. Love itself.

  42. Love what you said here Leelaji…’that it’s not the ego mind that is vigilant, but Existence Itself!’ Perfect..

    To answer your query about whether one re-identifies with the finger after the ball has been dropped, I would have to say I agree with Ellie there -and say no…The death of the self is the death of the self…

    What I think you’re referring to, are momentary contractions of Awareness that can happen if the experience is somewhat new or some nagging doubt remains – quite common – but if we just stop and check within – we see that there is nothing for the arising emotion or story to cling to..no finger identity to identify with…as all is just vast empty space..

    At some point, we don’t even think about whether we’re contracting or expanding or identifying – it’s all a seamless living of It…as even the witnessing awareness dissolves into the Absolute and loses it’s watchdog function..

    You sound wonderful and I have your e-mail – so will get back to you later in the day about meeting for tea in the City….

  43. That is so interesting what you said Jill….

    Looking at this phenomenon of momentary identification with the finger character with the perspective you just shared, I have to say that although there are times when an old story seems to be believed for a moment, I can’t say that they are actually attached to a separate character…..there is really just a story arising that is believed momentarily and then as soon as it is seen for what it really is- there is absolutely no reality to it and just space. I attributed much more power to the arising that it actually had! Fascinating. I guess I am still on training wheels….. : )

  44. Leelaji –
    Well we’re all on training wheels supporting each other in our inquiry into what is true..
    I’m glad that you quickly grasped the subtle distinction that needs to be made by an awakened one between story arising and the idea of a me character reappearing – so as not to foster doubt about the truth of our experience..
    An honest gaze within, which you obviously have, will always confirm our true identity…

  45. Lovely, Leelaji & Jill. I’ll go with Jill’s momentary contraction. Self is like teflon – the story can’t stick…but the memory of believing the story that can surface during a contraction – now that is the most terrifying thing there is.

    Peace to you both…and someday we’ll all go out for bagels.

  46. Great dialogue, Jill and Leelaji. This clears some things up for me. I am noticing more and more that the old stories have little power to “stick” any longer. I keep thinking that to be free means that nothing comes up any more. But the mind is still the mind, and stuff will continue to pass through. It just loses it’s power to bind.
    I too would love to join the tea party, but am in L.A. I feel your energy and am enjoying it.

  47. After trying to understand and follow some of the recent comments, I initially thought I was confused. But I contemplated and also I went back and studied both of Ellie’s interviews, and saw that she made similar observations. So I don’t feel as crazy anymore.

    I will try to point out some of the differences:

    Resting and surrendering are still both techniques that are trying to maintain a particular state or experience. How is that Freedom?

    Even if you are able to make spiritual practices and techniques an automatic, natural, and effortless habit. That’s still a potentially never ending job of becoming.
    It’s not about BECOMING more spiritual, acting like an awakened person, it’s well beyond mind control. It’s more about truly realizing that the mind is not in control, that what You think you are, is not in control. That You is truly and utterly helpless.

    Or maybe Ellie phrased it better by saying it’s about DYING, she mentions it several times in both interviews. Ending the 2nd interview with this Rumi quote “Our path is the path of love and death. If you can DIE, come. Otherwise go.”

    Below is a link to Ellie’s first interview, afterwards I have transcribed 2 sections where I think she goes into good detail about these differences. The whole interview is worth reviewing and studying.

    @ 1:00:30
    One day, I remember, I just said: “I just don’t know!” I know ‘this mind’ came to it’s knees, it was just so surrendered, so humbled, so humbled!
    I can not tell you how much it was, I was in tears!

    I don’t know what this thing is, intellectually, But I just know it, I know it so much, this is the only REAL thing existing. The most powerful thing.

    *** And you can tell, This mind was constantly trying to become, to become, to become even aware of the truth. ***
    You see, That’s the tail end of the mind, you really have to Watch it. Who wants to be one with this? Who is that ME that wants to be one with this? Is that ME authentic? That ME, You have to WATCH it, Very Carefully!

    Because this awakening happened from within, not something that somebody can point out to me. This was so deep inside, came out very powerfully, all the time.
    After that. There was absolutely nothing to try, nothing to become, nothing to understand.. I was so at peace, this mind was free.

    *** This mind is FREE from BECOMING! Finally! At last. I was becoming all my life! ***

    Even in the path of spirituality. I was becoming: so kind, so loving! Let’s have some unconditional love for everybody.
    The mind was trying to be non-judgemental. These are the things that mind is trying to become. But you can not be non-judgemental if you see yourself as a separate sense of self. Because you automatically see yourself as duality. When you see duality, the judgement is
    going to be there. So no matter how much you try, you get frustrated. That’s why the mind is so frustrated. It thinks, I have to be good, nonjudgemental.

    **** None of that is true! None of that is true! ***

    Because once you realize the Truth as the Truth.
    Every thought is more than welcome here. There is no such thing, as this thought is not supposed to be here.

    *** I was policing. My mind was policing!! ***

    Any idea, any emotion, is welcome! The sadness arises once you know who you are. The same thing with the body, the body can get sick.
    *** If you know who you are. ***
    You tolerate your pain, any disease or sickness in the body, very consciousnessly, very aware.

    It’s so relaxed! No more: This is good or bad. How do I feel?
    *** This has NOTHING to do with feeling.. ***
    What you are, is completely beyond feeling!! … BUT.. You have to know who you are, and claim it.

    That’s the END of the path. When there is NO more Becoming.

    People are mistaking the actual truth with the silence. The silence of being, that emptiness, is the SHADOW of the truth, it is NOT the truth.

    Because the truth is observing that, it can Not be That. The Truth is what is observing THAT.

    This is very, very delicate.

    People think (I get this all the time.) “I know I’m consciousness, BUT when I go talk to people, I lose myself, and now I have to come back to tap in.”

    You don’t know the truth! You don’t know the truth!

    *** The truth is NOT any STATE, Any Specific state of mind! ***

    People think that when I come to the present and the silence, that is the truth.
    That is the REFLECTION of the Truth!
    That is the Aroma that arises from the truth,
    BUT that is NOT the Truth.

    Truth is Always Here whether there is a mind or no mind!
    Mind can come and go. Emotion can come and go. This does NOT come and go. It’s always here, ever present.

    That is a very important thing!
    *** There is no such thing as I go and forgot who I am and I come back. ***
    You don’t know who you are!


  48. Valentino – just to clarify –
    Teachers speak to the level of experience of the questioner..and we are in agreement that awakening is not enlightenment..

    For enlightenment to be fully embodied- and an unwavering Silence to be known – there has to be a death of the ego/mind/will – but this doesn’t happen overnight for most people..It didn’t for me or for Ellie or for almost any teacher I know of..We all spent much time sincerely looking within and gaining clarity on the experience of emptiness – till Grace intervened, and it no longer came and went..

    In actuality – who we are never comes and goes, but our attention does waver or stories can and do arise in the early stages – and we can have very sincere awakening experiences and still have some lingering doubt – so pointing one back to what is real is important..We always want to be tender with the experience…

    It is true that after the final death blow has sounded, and we pass through the Void of Voids – there is no more doubt or any idea of coming and going and no one even there to witness it or give a damn – but it’s a process for most, and we want to acknowledge that..

  49. Hi Valentino,

    you know it’s ok that we don’t seem to find a common ground….. I am also the first to admit that I am not the greatest with articulating this whole thing…. In my experience there is no coming and going…and at the same time there is more and more dropping away….i don’t know what that means or where “I” am at….and honestly, I don’t care. Just taking it one moment at a time….. I don’t feel that I am on any journey to become anything….it’s the opposite…….in the end it doesn’t matter…..but LOVE IS ALIVE HERE…that’s all that is known…..

  50. All this talk of emptiness and the void makes me a bit uneasy. There is a hint at some kind of dis-connection in those terms. That is not what I want. I am seeking Light, Love, Compassion, warmth, comfort and above all a connection and oneness with all living things.
    If emptiness is what awaits, then I have just wasted 36 years… that being said, I don’t really believe that emptiness is the highest level of awareness, maybe just a way-station.
    Or am I mis-interpreting some of the above comments?

  51. Laurence –
    Not to worry – and of course emptiness is not the end state, but when people first awaken they do come to experience themselves as vast empty space…..They disidentify with the personal ME and gain identity with something greater – and more expansive..This emptiness can sometimes be misinterpreted as something flat or dull..and disappointing..
    but this is merely a stage in the natural dissolution process..a milestone to be sure…but not the totality of being…

    Acceptance of this emptiness as a milestone in one’s evolution and having gratitude for it – honoring it – is the best way to seduce it into showing us it’s true face and making it dance..

    Before this vast emptiness is recognized as pure unconditional love, this dissolution of the self – this emptying out of who we thought we were- must take place and it is often misunderstood..

    When Mother Teresa (according to her letters to her bishop) first encountered herself as emptiness, she was distraught…and bemoaned it – thought she had gone astray..She was expecting her God of Light and Love to appear..She didn’t know that the emptiness was Him in disguise…and died without finding what she desired..

    Our expectations of the spiritual journey sometimes conveniently leave out part of the necessary process of evolution..We want the light handed to us on a silver latter and are not usually willing to go through the darkness (the void) to see it..No one becomes a butterfly overnight…

    Who we truly are, as Neelam says, is space and tenderness at our core…They are one and the same, but it takes some time to come to that realization and fully embody all that it is….

  52. Jill – Thank you for this lovely and inspirational response – and just for the record, I was not trying to take issue with any of your former postings.
    All that you say about the feelings of emptiness that arise as the ego dissolves are in line with my experience also. What I find is that for me , the stages of awakening are not always clear cut or exactly sequential. There seems to be an ongoing carnival of different experiences, ranging from a few hours or so spent in the “wasteland,” to stability and centeredness, to the ecstatic inner Divine Presence, then maybe a brief go-round with irritability or impatience, and then back round again. These cycles run regularly, and as they continue, the “down cycles” seem to be losing steam and whatever negative thoughts occasionally pop up no longer cling for very long, i.e. sometimes only a few seconds.
    So yes, as many here point out, the awakening process happens differently for everybody. It seems like a journey, but is really just a falling away, until all that remains is Love and “fullness of being”(Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.)
    I also very much like what you say about honoring each experience or stage, and greeting them with a welcoming sense of gratitude.
    So anyway, yes, yes, and yes! Love, Grace, Fulfillment.
    How beautiful that is.

  53. Beautifully stated Laurence..and thank you for sharing yourself so honestly…that’s what people benefit from..that’s what satsang is..sitting in the presence of our own Truth…
    We hopefully leave the abstractions behind when we go on the final leg of the journey..and speak straight from the heart..
    yes yes – a falling away of everything that isn’t true -letting it all go – which some describe as the great unburdening of self -beautiful –
    and the more we can surrender and ride the waves between rest and restlessness – the more we are grateful for all that arises – knowing God is contained in the blocks as well as the bliss – the deeper the Love and the greater the freedom in the end..
    Love to you..

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