Ellie Roozdar 2^nd Interview

Summary

Ellie explains intense mental activity and ego as effects of identifying with the individual body rather than with the totality of existence. The discussion explores awakening, grace, stillness, and how ordinary personal roles can continue after a fundamental shift in identity.

Questions This Interview Explores

• How can I quiet a constantly active mind and live from presence?
• How can I overcome identification with the ego?
• What is the difference between recognizing awareness and fully realizing unity?
• Is awakening something I can bring about, or does it depend on grace?
• How can I function in everyday life after realizing my deeper identity?

Key takeaways

• The mind keeps searching when identity is limited to the individual self.
• Trying to eliminate the ego directly is less effective than recognizing its deeper nature.
• Awakening involves a complete shift from seeing oneself as separate to seeing oneself as the whole.
• Grace ultimately brings the decisive release from identification with the separate self.
• Personal roles can continue while being understood as temporary functions rather than ultimate identity.
• Seeing all beings as expressions of one reality transforms love from self-interest into inclusiveness.

Transcript

🛤️ Welcome and the first question

Rick: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer, and my guest this week is Ellie Roozdar, who was a guest on the show last October. That interview went very well, and afterwards she got a lot of questions from people, and she’s still getting them. So we decided to do a second interview in which Ellie answers some of the common questions she’s been getting. So welcome, Ellie, and thanks for doing this again.

Ellie: Thank you so much, Rick, for giving me this opportunity. It’s my pleasure to be here.

Rick: You’re welcome. So this will be a little different. I would suggest that people, if they wish, go back and listen to the first interview before even listening to this one, because then you’ll get Ellie’s whole background and know how she came to where she is now. We’re not going to go through all that again. We’re just going to start discussing these questions.

The first question someone asked is, “How can I stop the intense functioning of the mind? The mind is very entertaining. It is constantly moving to the past and future. How can I live as presence?”

Ellie: Before I answer this question, I want everybody to just, for a few seconds, close your eyes, including yourself. Take a deep breath and feel the presence that is here right now. Strongly, right here, right now.

When you’re listening to these questions and answers, please try to listen from this presence, the life that you are—not from the mind and this character in the mind. Because if you listen from here, from the source, it’s going to hit home and something is going to open up.

Always remember yourself as this presence that you are at this moment, and listen to this message. Now we slowly open our eyes, and now I’m going to answer this question.

The finger and the totality

The truth of the matter is very simple. I, as life, as existence, wanted to know who I am. So I dressed up in this body, and I hypnotized myself to be this body. Just a thought. This is just a thought, but that’s reality.

Ellie: The truth of the matter is very simple. I, as life, as existence, wanted to know who I am. So I dressed up in this body, and I hypnotized myself to be this body. Just a thought. This is just a thought, but that’s reality.

In this body, all of a sudden I wake up to who I am. Not only do I recognize that I am nothing, but I also recognize that I am everything.

I want you to see this body—my body—as the totality. The totality is the body. Now, I, as the totality, pretend that I am this finger. At this moment, I hypnotize myself to be this finger, not the totality anymore.

The moment I decide to do this, not only am I pretending to be this finger, but also this finger, and this finger, and these. These are all I pretend to be. The moment I pretend I am this finger, I feel and I think as a finger.

The moment this happens, ignorance happens. I am ignoring myself as this totality, and I am thinking that I am this finger. So obviously, I am looking at myself as this. This is what I am, and this person is separate from me.

This finger also thinks that I am a person. So here we go: We look at each other. Of course, I am this and you are that. Of course, it looks like we are separate. But are we really separate? In reality?

The mind starts functioning because the finger is searching for the totality.

Ellie: As this finger, I see everything as separate from me. These people are away from me. Of course, this is me, this is you; definitely, we are separate. But ultimately, we are not separate, because ultimately, this is what I am.

Always remember my hands when I am answering the questions. Just remember the hands.

This person, as a finger, the moment this ignorance happens, the mind starts functioning. It is immediately looking for the source. I am immediately looking for myself now. Who am I? This is not happening very obviously. It is not a question of “Who am I?” But very unconsciously, very subtly, this is happening.

So this “Who am I?” search starts, and the mind—the first reference of you now—is going to be the mind. You are asking the mind, “Who am I?” And the poor little mind, which is confused now, is looking. It keeps adding identities: “I am a teacher. I am a father. I am this and I am that.”

It has this mental image: “I am a good finger. I am a generous finger. I am a loving finger. Unconditional love—let’s practice all this.” But as a finger, I cannot see. Because I don’t see the totality, I cannot have that unconditional love that I am talking about.

My vision is duality. I see this as me and this as you. There is no way, when I see you, that I don’t pass judgment. I will, because I see myself as separate. And there is no way I don’t go to the mind.

So the mind starts chattering, because the mind is searching now. That’s normal. That’s very normal, because that is the way. This mind is looking for itself. It’s a self-seeking mind; it wants to define itself.

So when people say, “How can I stop the mind?” you cannot stop the mind that is hypnotized, that believes, “I am this finger.” This mind is not going to stop.

Yes, when you meditate, it slows down. Sometimes it even comes into complete silence. But the moment you come out of meditation, because the character is here—the thought that “I am the finger, I am this body”—this character is going to come back and function as a separate individual.

Stopping the mind? Forget it. You cannot stop this mind until this hypnosis drops. The moment this drops—not before that—the moment you recognize the truth, you see the ultimate truth.

Why Recognizing Awareness Is Not Yet Total Freedom

The individual finger all of a sudden gets tired of this play and says, “You know what? This cannot be. I cannot be this finger. There is no way I am this.”

So it would curve down, into this cocoon, into this silence, into that stillness. All of a sudden it recognizes there is some sort of connection. Something in here is like an awareness that is besides this finger, besides this individual.

That recognition is not the ultimate freedom. If I just recognize that there is this awareness in here, the character still exists as this finger. The freedom is when this finger would all of a sudden turn around and see the totality.

Once this sees the totality, the vision changes. Instead of having the vision from the finger looking at the rest, the vision is looking like this.

Rick: The totality is looking.

Ellie: The totality is seeing right now. The totality is now seeing: “This is not only me—this is my finger—but also the rest of these elements are me.”

The duality drops, and it becomes unity. Unity means I see myself as the totality, and everything else—all of this—is within me.

I am the totality, including the body. This body is also in me, but I am not it. The mind is not going to stop. It is going to chatter. This is natural, because this mind is looking for itself. So you leave it alone. It is not about the mind. You have to realize that the reason this is happening is because this is searching for itself.

You need to quiet down, come into this stillness, so that this whole thing clears out and you can see what is going on.

The moment this recognition happens, the moment you realize you are the totality, this chattering is gone. It disappears. That self-seeking in the mind is gone.

The mind is completely quiet, like a servant. You give an order; the mind does it. The order comes from the source now, not from the character. And the character dissolves in this.

That is a conviction. It has to happen as a conviction. There is no 99.9 percent. This is a 100 percent conviction. That’s it. This is what I am, for sure.

Rick: The totality is the universal, vast, all-encompassing wholeness, and the finger represents this individual expression. There are billions of fingers in this analogy, because there are so many individualities and expressions. You said that when the totality is realized, the chattering mind just stops. That’s the $64,000 question: How is the totality realized?

Ellie: Ultimately, if I want to give you the one answer, in one sentence, it is the grace of the Divine.

Rick: But then again, God helps those who help themselves, so we’ll be talking about that.

Ellie: The ultimate decision is, I, as life, as existence, decide, “In this finger, I want to wake up totally. In this finger, I want to be a murderer. In this finger, I want to be just a happy-go-lucky being. In this finger, I want to be a doctor.” That’s my decision.

When you see this totality, you’re not going to say, “Oh, you are a bad guy, you are a murderer, what did you do?” That’s not how it is going to be, because this whole play is in play.

Rick: How can I get rid of the ego?

Ellie: How can I get rid of this character? The ego, this character, is just a belief. It’s not real. It’s just a belief in my head that I am this finger. I’m not going to put energy into some belief that’s not even real.

Let’s say you are in a very dark room, absolutely pitch-black. You can take a broom and go after the darkness, trying to get rid of it. That’s how people try to get rid of the ego, which doesn’t even exist. Or you can touch the wall and look for the light. The moment I turn on the light, what happens? The darkness is gone.

Turn on the light, and automatically the ego drops for good.

The moment this finger turns around and sees the totality, automatically, the ego drops. This path is the path of cancellation of that ego, cancellation for good. This shift of vision is the key.

Ellie: The moment this finger turns around and sees the totality, automatically, the ego drops. This path is the path of cancellation of that ego, cancellation for good. This shift of vision is the key.

If you have some knowledge, some experience of the awareness, but this character is still functioning and doesn’t see itself as the totality, you still feel that you are a person, an individual, so you can’t see the big picture.

The moment that shift of view happens, all of a sudden I notice, “Oh, this was funny.” You laugh. You’re going to laugh for the rest of your life. How could I fall into something like this? It’s just beautiful. It’s orchestrated so beautifully.

Rick: How did I ever see the string as a snake?

Ellie: Yes, exactly.

Rick: Do you see yourself as nothing? As a combination of totality expressed as this particular finger? There is still the life of Ellie, and that is still a finger; it is not all the fingers.

Ellie: I see both of these bodies now. These two are me. There is no Rick and Ellie separate. These are just instruments; these are vehicles.

There is only this existence, which I am, functioning through this finger, which is Ellie, and talking. It is not a person. This is not personal anymore; there is no person here. But there is existence in here.

This person has to say, ultimately, “I am that truth.” It would recognize this emptiness, existence, and it would declare—this is the last sentence that this character is going to say—“I am that.”

This drop has to drop into the ocean. If the drop is still outside, thinking itself as separate from the ocean, although it sees the ocean, it is not one with the ocean.

Rick: Do they have a choice of dropping, or is it grace?

Ellie: No, this is grace. Nobody can help you. Grace decides. The grace of existence says, “You know what? That’s enough. I am done. I have had enough of this game.”

The life that you have is going to teach you how to be this. It will bring you challenges, over and over again, so that you see, “Am I this character now? Am I a finger, or am I this totality?”

Rick: But totality is functioning as a person, or through a person. This person has eyes, ears, a nose, intellect, mind, and senses. Those are all tools or faculties through which totality functions. Isn’t there also some remnant of ego or an “I-sense” that makes this entity capable of functioning?

Ellie: You have to be very clear. If you are talking about “I” as a totality, yes, “I” is a totality speaking.

In this play, of course you play. I know for a fact that I am not the mother. Now, do I play tomorrow as the role of the mother? Of course I do. And they call me Mommy. Am I answering or not? Yes, of course.

It’s just like a play. You become an actor in a movie. In this movie, you are a doctor. Your name is Robert, and you have a wife and three children. You play the role of this doctor, but are you going to lose your identity in this movie? No, you know you are Rick. You know that this is a game; this is just a play.

Rick: So you have a play identity. There is an identity, but it’s not ultimately real.

Ellie: Exactly. You know your true identity. The mind has to recognize the difference between the truth, which you are, and the play and the fiction. It’s not going to say, “Now that I’m nothing, what’s going to happen if somebody calls me?” If somebody calls you, you are Ellie, you are Rick, of course.

You are going to gain yourself as the ultimate truth. It’s not this anymore, for sure. But that doesn’t mean that you don’t love this. You love this even more, because this is your instrument now; this is your vehicle.

The love is all-embracing, welcoming, and all-inclusive. You see all of them as if they are you. These are my fingers.

Rick: Which is the golden rule, isn’t it? Love your neighbor as yourself?

Ellie: Absolutely. Jesus says, “Love your neighbor,” because his vision is this vision, not a character saying, “I am a nice character. I love my neighbor.” That is a very superficial level.

If you train yourself to be a nice person, unconditional and loving, polishing this finger—“Better finger, better finger”—you cannot. This is not the path of polishing yourself to become a better individual. We are saying, in this path, you are not a finger. Period.

🧘 Presence, silence, and practice

Rick: Is there any technique to be more present and have a peaceful life?

Ellie: If you think you are a character again, yes, you have to use all these techniques. But as long as you are this character, as a finger, peace is never going to find you.

Even though you go to seminars where they teach you how to breathe, meditate, and bring yourself to the present, you can’t bring yourself to the present because you, as a person, are searching outside to find yourself.

Rick: Although there are techniques that have you search inside, like at the very beginning of this interview, when you wanted us to close our eyes, take a deep breath, and recognize the presence.

Ellie: Exactly, that’s the only way. The real way is to just curve back inside and see what’s going on in here. That is the true search. Other than that, this character is not going to find peace.

People say, “I try to come to the present moment. For a few minutes I am here, then I go back.” Because this present moment, to the character who is searching, is death. But once the character drops, this is absolute joy, absolute ecstasy, absolute peace and fulfillment at every single breath.

People say, “I try to come to the present moment. For a few minutes I am here, then I go back.” Because this present moment, to the character who is searching, is death. But once the character drops, this is absolute joy, absolute ecstasy, absolute peace and fulfillment at every single breath.

Rick: But that’s once the character has dropped. For the vast majority of people, the character hasn’t dropped, so the question was, is there some technique to drop it?

Ellie: No, I cannot.

Rick: Well, you say, curve back. And there are effective techniques which can facilitate that curving back.

Ellie: Curving back to do what? This path is about when you curve back, when you quiet down, that silence is talking to you. The silence is pointing toward the truth that you are. And in that silence, the truth awakens to itself.

Every teaching that we see right now—Buddhism, Zen, even Sufism—has one common denominator. What is that? Silence. Just go to the silence.

Silence is the key.

Ellie: I am not against satsangs, teachers, books, or the internet. But ultimately, if you have done all of them and this thing didn’t work, that is because you, as a character, do not know this silence very well, do not honor this silence very well, and do not want to jump into that.

There are so many methods. For me, it is just quiet down, stay, and be. Allow every thought and emotion to come and go. Slowly, slowly, you notice that you are just being.

Some people tell me, “I have been teaching meditation for many years, and I still cannot be.” How could you not be? Try to cancel this being and see if you can.

These are the mind and the characters talking. The character says, “I cannot just be.” That is how you want to be a seeker, because you want to keep seeking. Once you see the ultimate truth, seeking stops for good.

Liberation doesn’t mean, “I know that I am aware, but every moment I have to remember myself as that.” This is not memory-based. You don’t have to remember who you are; you are that.

Rick: You are not going to lose it by forgetting to think about it. It’s in your bones; it’s stabilized.

Ellie: Truth knows itself. Once it recognizes itself, how could you lose yourself?

Rick: People sometimes awaken in satsangs because there is a resonance with the silence of the teacher. It enables people to attune to that level of silence, and it can facilitate an awakening.

Ellie: There is nothing to reject. My way was just silence, going within. These satsangs are all good, especially if your mind is ready and this character is ready to see the truth.

My body needed to be quiet and still. Ultimately you need to jump into this stillness that you are.

Rick: You would lie there for three hours and not move a muscle.

Ellie: Exactly. This was helping me recognize the silence that is here, which is pointing into this ultimate truth.

I had experiences of a love affair. I thought there were two: there was this me, and there was the totality. But in one of these love affairs, this character dropped. It just burned out. Once it came out, it was only this.

After a while, the moment you recognize this, the attention of the body automatically goes back to the source. In one of those walks, all of a sudden I saw everything is in me. Once that eye opens, this eye, which belongs to the finger, closes. That vision never changes.

I ask people on a walking meditation to close their eyes and walk: Are you walking, or is the body walking in you? Because you are stillness; the body is moving in you.

That is direct experience. Don’t believe anything that I am saying. You need to experience all of that.

Rick: Even in your own case, it took time, and there were degrees of clarity, stabilization, and integration. At times it was intermittent, and then it became more stable. People shouldn’t feel that if it is not instantly and completely what you are describing, they are doing something wrong.

Ellie: Absolutely. There is nothing wrong; there is no wrongdoing here. Each body is different. I don’t want copies. In each body I like to be awakened differently.

Rick: And in this one I want to be a cat, and in this one I want to be a crab, or a snail, or whatever.

Ellie: Exactly. Look at this miracle. Everything is a miracle. The different varieties of dogs, their sizes, their attitudes—it is amazing.

Rick: It is marvelous, the creativity of God or intelligence.

Ellie: All of which is you. It’s you; that’s what you are. Claim it, Rick. You are not apart from that; you are it.

Rick: But it’s not just a matter of saying that. It’s a matter of genuinely living it.

Ellie: Living it, absolutely. You feel every breath, you feel that, “I am this expansion.” It shows—the way you look, your eyes, the way you look at people. It’s coming from the source. There is no character, because there never has been. Don’t pay attention to the character and try to kill it or get rid of it. That is another trap.

Rick: Just turn on the light switch.

Ellie: Turn on the light switch, and automatically that goes away by itself, effortlessly.

When Awareness Still Feels Inadequate and Unhappy

Rick: Here is another question: “I know that I am awareness, but I still feel inadequate, limited, and unhappy. I don’t feel that I am free yet. What is wrong with this picture?”

Ellie: As long as you think that you are a finger and not the totality, you feel limited, unhappy, and miserable. You are still thinking unhappy because you still think you are a person.

This truth is a mystery. You cannot define who you are. You are undefined.

Rick: So when the person says, “I know I am awareness, but I am miserable,” that knowledge must be somewhat conceptual, not actually living it.

Ellie: There is some mixture. I work with people on Skype. I don’t tell you who you are; you tell me. We go together, like scuba diving, and I am with you like a coach, not as a guru who wants to pour information into your head.

I ask you the question. You see there is a stillness and a truth in here, something that never comes and goes. It is also aware of this emptiness and silence. Now tell me who you are.

One man recognized the truth completely and started laughing. He said, “Yes, absolutely, there is no question about that.” Then, about a month later, he called and said, “My mind went crazy. I couldn’t even meditate.”

Rick: So it’s rebelling.

Ellie: Yes, the character doesn’t want to die. This feels like death to the mind. Some people would rather be this miserable little finger. When I ask people, “Are you ready to die to this character and your life?” I get emails saying, “No, I’m not ready.”

It is a matter of readiness. The mind has to be mature enough to say, “You know what? I deserve this, and this is it. That’s what I am.”

Rick: Shankara talked about stages of development and practices before the final realization—selfless service, meditation, and different things that culture and refine the whole structure so realization can dawn.

Ellie: I give a simple example. If there is a two-year-old boy, and in one hand I have a half-million-dollar diamond and in the other an ice cream cone, which one is he going to take? The ice cream. But the same boy at age twenty-five will pick the diamond, because now he sees its value.

The maturity of the mind is that, when you see the truth, your mind has to be ready to say yes to this. Although this is not tangible, it is like a free fall, like death. This death has to happen to the character.

The character has to die into this so that it sees itself as the totality.

Try to remember this analogy. When you are listening to this, see exactly what this vision is. Your vision is going to change for good.

Living as the totality

Rick: How can I remember awareness all the time and not lose it?

Ellie: Who is talking now? The character is talking again. The character recognizes there is some awareness here, but then it goes to the mind and comes back.

Close your eyes and check: Does this character exist? The attention goes to the mind, but you don’t go anywhere. Mental activity arises from you, but you are here. The attention of the body may go to the mind and come back; there is nothing wrong with that.

Once you know yourself, any thought is welcome, as long as you know who you are. Any emotion is welcome.

Rick: People may say, “It is easy to remember who I am when I am walking on the beach or meditating. But when my boss yells at me, or my children or wife are difficult, I lose it.”

Ellie: That is because there is a character still there. The truth is you. How could you lose yourself?

Rick: Many people are overshadowed. They do crazy things, commit crimes, and hurt others. They don’t seem to remember it under those circumstances.

Ellie: They think that they are this character. They see you as a character, and they have a mental belief about you. When they kill you, they are killing that mental character that they think you are.

When I am looking at this as awareness, as existence, as being, who killed the other one? This doesn’t know who he is. He thinks he is a finger. Where is the blame?

Rick: Forgive them, Father, they know not what they do.

Ellie: Yes, because ignorance is functioning right now.

Rick: Until the drop has dropped, can practices be helpful?

Ellie: Once you recognize the awareness, bring the attention back to the source. That is all. See what you saw in meditation. Recognize the truth as the diamond, because the truth is very simple.

Do not struggle. You have to see the truth as a valuable thing. The mind has to recognize that although this is nothing, this is not a nothing. This is everything.

Rick: So until you know yourself as source, by whatever means works for you, learn to bring your attention back to source if it seems to have been lost.

Ellie: If you can, yes. Don’t make it difficult. You have to value what is.

Some people jump into the water immediately. Others only put in a toe and say, “This is too cold,” then come back. That is the attitude of the ego. On this path, your attitude has to be, “Jump!”

Rick: When you say this, you are speaking to the fingers that are on the verge of waking up.

Ellie: Exactly. I am talking to the group who knows something is not right: “This cannot be it. I cannot be this finger.”

Some people think this space of emptiness is like a black hole, but that is not a black hole. If you meditate, you know this is not empty; this is full. The mind thinks, “I am going to become nothing. I am going to die.” But if this space feels like home, trust that.

The mind has to say, “This is home.” Ultimately it says, “I am home.” Not “I am at home.” “I am that.”

Rick: Aham brahmasmi.

Ellie: “I am that.” That is the ultimate thing. That is the conviction.

Self-Realization Beyond a Personal Mission

Rick: Someone asks, “I want to get closer to God, pray every day to be a better individual, find my mission, and have a positive effect in the world. How does the path of self-realization help me?”

Ellie: This character believes, “I am this finger, but I am looking for God.” It already has a strong belief that it is separate from the Source.

Rick: It is like asking, “How can I be a better finger? I want to be a positive finger.”

Ellie: Look at the totality. What is the mission of every finger? The fingers have to work together for the totality. The totality decides what is going on. The dance is in the hands of the totality, not the individuality of every finger.

In this path, the totality is functioning as One through every individual. You are not a separate entity to have a mission. Drop your belief. Once you know the truth, whatever is right comes to you.

Rick: Some people feel called to be musicians, doctors, politicians, or humanitarians. Are you saying they need to drop that? Would self-realization help them be better at what they do?

Ellie: This wants to be a musician because I, as totality, want to be a musician here. I would do my very best. I play with my heart, not with my mind. I play like there is nobody around me.

Rick: So if you know yourself to be the totality, you can be a much better musician or whatever.

Ellie: I don’t even call it better. Everything comes from the heart. When you are cooking from the heart, the Source is cooking. The hands just know.

Characters play to impress other people or for money. But if you love to play, you play it as the Source. That is why we have genius musicians. When they are on stage, the Source is playing fully.

Rick: There are athletes like Michael Jordan who, when they were playing well, seemed to be playing from source.

Ellie: Absolutely. Once you are in the present, playing, the character dissolves. When you are intensely functioning at something that you love, the character is not there.

Experiences, emotions, and life after liberation

Rick: What about having a profound experience of totality and then losing it? Once you’re awakened, can you lose it?

Do not chase experiences. The experience happens in you and moves out. But there is something here that doesn’t come and go. That is what you have to recognize and fall in love with, not the experience.

Ellie: Do not chase experiences. The experience happens in you and moves out. But there is something here that doesn’t come and go. That is what you have to recognize and fall in love with, not the experience.

I was trapped with experiences as a person for two and a half years, going down here and having a love affair, then coming out of meditation as a normal individual again.

Once the character dies, you are not going to be interested in experiences anymore. This path is about, “Who am I as this?” That is fulfilling in every breath.

Rick: Can knowing who you are as this come and go?

Ellie: No. Once this finger turns around and sees the source for itself, that hypnosis drops completely. The body acts as if there is an Ellie, as if she is married and has children, but ultimately that is not true.

Rick: Are there strong emotions—sadness or anger—after liberation?

Ellie: Any emotion can arise, because this body is conditioned. I lost very good friends, and the tears came pouring down. But deep here, there was absolute peace and joy. These two energies combined together, like sweet and sour.

Sadness can arise, and anger can arise, because the body’s conditioning is interacting. But as long as you know who you are as the ultimate truth, you are not going to identify with it.

The body drops, but am I going to drop? You have to know that you don’t go anywhere. In the play, any emotion can arise, but in reality you know the big picture.

Rick: How is life after liberation? How do I live the truth?

Ellie: The same way you lived as an ignorant person. You pretended to be a finger and ignored who you are as the ultimate truth. That takes so much energy. After liberation, the truth is living, and this is effortless.

You are not going to identify with the role anymore. The fear of the future is going to go. There is no little me that you have to take care of.

Rick: If you had a drinking problem, were impatient, prone to anger, or argumentative, would that change?

Ellie: I never had those types of habits, so I cannot relate to that. But there is a transformation happening. If somebody says, “I know that I am awareness,” and then behaves exactly as before, where is the transformation?

My husband noticed a change. When he sits next to me, his character melts down completely. There is no relationship anymore as two separate people. It is just this. This is living.

I am not going to convert him. If he is not interested in this path, I have compassion. This is how he wants to be.

Rick: It sounds like your realization enhanced your relationship.

Ellie: Absolutely. With children and other people, the truth is up and running. I see myself in the picture. You don’t see yourself as a person talking to a person. The totality is talking.

Your interaction is pure love. I look in people’s eyes and see you as me. You are in me right now. You are walking in me. How can you not be transformed?

📚 Doership, free will, and teaching at the right level

Rick: Someone asks, “There is nobody sitting on these chairs, there is no doer. So do I have free will or not?”

Ellie: That teacher is talking about the truth. In the totality, there are no separate individual selves sitting on those chairs. The bodies are sitting there, but in the big picture he sees only the source.

There is no doer, ultimately, because the source is the doer. Even in the case of a murderer, who ultimately did the murder? The source. But the source is in a coma; it doesn’t know who it is. That is why Jesus says, “Hate the sin, not the sinner.”

The character is not the doer, but there is doing happening in the totality. Just like I am moving my fingers: the fingers are not doing it by themselves; I am doing that. There is a source behind it.

Rick: People get confused because teachers speak from the perspective of totality, while listeners still feel a sense of doership and free will. There is a disparity between the level being spoken about and the level being experienced.

Ellie: Exactly. Rumi says, “What I say, I come to your level, and I speak.” He doesn’t talk from up here; he comes down to your level so that you understand.

I would never say that there is no doer. That doesn’t help you. If you try to impose that on yourself, the mind tricks you. You get into a trap.

The way that worked here was absolute silence. Go to the silence. Use the right method that people have been using for thousands of years. Do not take shortcuts.

Nothing esoteric has to happen. No fireworks have to happen in order for you to recognize what is true, what never comes and goes. First recognize it; then fall in love with it.

Rick: Someone says that a teacher helped her overcome fear by feeling it thoroughly, but the fear came back a few days later. How can you help?

Ellie: In the presence of a teacher, the ego character may drop and the emotion may dissolve. But two days later, the character is still there. The character didn’t go anywhere.

You can use that technique for the rest of your life if that is what you want. But this path is not about technique; it is about who you are. Once you find out who you are, feelings of inadequacy, fear, and not feeling good drop.

Rick: Some people have emotional baggage and repressed trauma. Maybe some of that load has to be lightened so the instrument can reflect totality.

Ellie: Absolutely. If you have all this baggage, pain, and suffering, you cannot even close your eyes for two seconds. Definitely go for therapy, but that is not the ultimate awakening.

Rick: So your job is to deal with ultimate awakening, not necessarily all the emotional baggage.

Ellie: The root of inadequacy is that you don’t know who you are. I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist, and I don’t claim anything. But people need to be desperate on this path. You need courage to jump into what you see as the ultimate truth and claim it.

Most people see it, but they dance around it because facing it is like death. Rumi says, “Die, die into this love.” Once you die into this love, you will be resurrected.

Death has to be there. You cannot resurrect without dying.

Rick: Some teacher gave me the practice of being a watcher. I tried it for two weeks and dropped it. Is this a good practice?

Ellie: Watcher of what? Who is watching? The ego—the character—is watching the other character as separate. That is duality. The real observer is not watching from the finger; it is watching from the totality.

Rick: It is an attempt by the ego to mimic something it has understood conceptually.

Ellie: You cannot fake this.

Rick: There is a witnessing state in which there is natural detachment from everything, but even that is not something you do. It may simply be that way for a while.

Ellie: The inner eye opens. It is not a practice. Practice for me was curving down and going inside, wanting to know what was going on. Recognition of the truth happened, but beyond that, the vision of duality drops all of a sudden, and you see Oneness.

Rick: Oneness is not a practice either. It is not walking around saying, “I am Oneness.”

Ellie: You cannot fake this. When people are talking, you can tell whether they are speaking from the source or from an experience. The energy shows.

No matter who says what, I know who I am. I am not the role. I am this. As this, I don’t even know who this is. This cannot be described; this is a mystery. I am just living the mystery.

Rick: Try describing the color red. Everybody knows what red is, but how can you describe it?

Ellie: If someone has never seen, how can you describe red? It is indescribable, but it is the most obvious thing. It is here—the permanent, self-illuminating, peaceful existence.

Do not try to describe it. You can be it. The practices of trying to be unconditional love or not judge dropped, because you automatically see yourself as the source.

The source is not judgmental, although I see the malfunctions. There is no blame, because I know where this person is coming from. Ignorance is doing it.

🎵 Starting over and recognizing the truth

Rick: Someone asks whether practice leads to realization. If I don’t exist, will practices reinforce the “I” or melt it?

Ellie: The character starts with “Who am I?” and curves down. For me, this naturally happened. It is not a doing thing.

Rick: Some teachers say you shouldn’t practice because it reinforces the sense of a practicer.

Ellie: I don’t think that reinforces it. Some practices may, but a natural, spontaneous, effortless turning within does not.

Rick: How can someone start over after reading books, attending satsangs, and doing many practices for years without becoming free?

Ellie: There is one solid-gold question that needs to be in the core of your being: “Who am I?” When you close your eyes, just be, and have this core question in your heart. Not “I want to be enlightened,” but “Who am I?” It has to be authentic, coming from the depth of your being.

When you go into the silence, that question is behind the whole scene. The silence points toward who you are. You recognize the truth, and if the character is ready and desperate enough, it will merge into that.

There is no spiritual pill that someone can give you. People keep going from teacher to teacher. Who is doing that? The character. If someone resonates with you, stay there. Do not jump from one teacher to another, because that confuses the mind.

Rick: It is better to dig one well one hundred feet deep than ten wells ten feet deep.

Ellie: Exactly. Be honest. The character may drop through experiences, and sometimes a person who has awakened fully goes back to the story. The character wants to go back to “me and my story.” That happens.

Once vision has shifted and you are out of the picture, you are totally the totality. There is no way you lose yourself, no search, no practice, and no need to read about yourself. You live yourself, dance yourself, and smile yourself.

Rick: How do I know that the truth of my nature is the ultimate truth?

Ellie: That comes to the maturity of the ego. If the character is not mature enough, it sees the truth but does not accept it. In coaching, I stay with people so they can see the truth as ultimate and have the conviction, “Yes, that is me. That is what I am.”

You are already that. What can I teach you? Coaching is like a midwife helping someone give birth. I cannot give birth for you. The real giving birth is yours.

Every being is undergoing demolition of the character, unconsciously. Life teaches you through every peak and valley. Every experience brings you back to the source.

Heaven is here. It is not somewhere you go after you die. That world and this world merge into this. That is the ultimate truth.

❤️ Liberation and the path of love and death

Rick: People say, “I awakened, but the mind and old me are still there. How can I be one with the truth?” There seem to be many stages and flavors of awakening, but they are not necessarily liberation.

Ellie: Liberation means I see Oneness. Everything is within me, and everything happens in me, not to me. The ultimate freedom is feeling your true essence and knowing for sure that is what you are—seeing it, declaring it, loving it, and living it.

Rumi says, “Our path is the path of love and death. If you can die, come. Otherwise, go.”

Rick: Nice.

Ellie: Simple as that.

Retreats and service

Rick: Do you teach a retreat in residence? Do people come to Long Island, or are you talking over Skype?

Ellie: The retreats can be many ways. I have people from all over the world. If they are far away, we do this through Skype, phone calls, and email. If they are local, I invite them to come here and interact individually.

Rick: Do they come to your house, or do you sometimes set up something at a retreat center?

Ellie: It is very intimate, one-to-one in my home. We do walking meditation, sit down together, and interact.

There is no fee. I don’t need your money or for you to give me something. There is no character here who wants to show you the way in exchange for money.

There is only One. Me as a being is in two different bodies, and I am helping that other body come up to this level. That is my service toward humanity, and it is free.

I ask people to give any donation they want to their favorite charity, including Buddha at the Gas Pump. The higher you pay, the more value you see in this.

I spend as much time as you need. One step at a time we go, and I am there for you to the very last step, until you see that.

Rick: As far as Buddha at the Gas Pump is concerned, there are donate buttons at www.batgap.com, one for a one-time donation and one for a monthly subscription. The money is used for equipment, hosting fees, conferences, retreats, and things directly related to this.

Closing words

Ellie: Rumi says, “My whole life is about only three things. I was unripened, I was ripened, then I burned out.” He is talking about the character: start unripened, become ripened, then die.

Find who you are as the ultimate truth. Love it; fall in love with it, because that is the only thing that is always here, ultimate, and eternal.

Every breath is a celebration of you as the ultimate truth.

Living it is such joy, because every breath is a celebration of you as the ultimate truth, using this body to experience this absolute beauty.

Rick: That’s great. Thank you. Beautiful.

Ellie: Thank you.

Rick: You’ve been listening to an interview with Ellie Roozdar. Ellie lives on Long Island, outside New York City, and communicates with people all over the world by email and Skype.

If you’d like to get in touch with Ellie, go to www.batgap.com, where you’ll see a link to her website and contact information.

At www.batgap.com, you will also find the other interviews I’ve done, along with email notifications, the YouTube channel, and the iTunes podcast.

Rick: Thanks again, Ellie.

Ellie: Thank you, Rick. Peace be with you.

Rick: Peace be with you, and thanks to those who’ve been listening or watching. We will see you next week.

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