Ellie Roozdar 2^nd Interview

Rick: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer and my guest this week is Ellie Roozdar, who was a guest on the show last October. And that interview went very well and afterwards she got a lot of questions from people and she’s still getting them. And so we decided to do a second interview in which Ellie answers some of the common questions she’s been getting. So welcome Eli and thanks for doing this again.

Ellie: Thank you so much Rick for giving me this opportunity. It’s my pleasure to be here.

Rick: You’re welcome. So this will be a little different. I would suggest that people, if they wish, go back and listen to the first interview before even listening to this one, because then you’ll get Ellie’s whole background and you know how she kind of came to where she is now. We’re not going to go through all that again. We’re just going to start discussing these questions and I imagine we’ll spend a very pleasant couple of hours actually discussing these questions. So we’re going to start right in. So Ellie typed up the questions that she’s been getting and probably you’ve gotten many more than these, but these are representative of the most common ones and they seem to be in a little bit of a logical order. So I’ll just start and we’ll take it from the top and spend as much time as we like discussing each one. So the first question someone asked is, “How can I stop the intense functioning of the mind? The mind is very entertaining. It is constantly moving to the past and future. How can I live as presence?”

Ellie: Okay, so yes, but Rick, before I answer this question, I want everybody to just for a few seconds, we’re going to close our eyes, just for a few seconds, including yourself. Okay, and I want you to take a deep breath and feel the presence that is here right now. Strongly right here, right now. And when you’re listening to these questions and answers, please try to listen from this presence, the life that you are. Not from the mind and this character in the mind. Because if you listen it from here, from the source, it’s going to hit home and something is going to open up. Okay, so that is the deal. Always remember yourself as this presence that you are at this moment and you listen to this message. So now we slowly open our eyes and now I’m going to listen to answer this question. Okay, about two days ago when I was preparing all these questions and all, I was sitting in my living room and all of a sudden this analogy just arise from the depth of my heart and I just want to use this analogy so that throughout this whole entire interview we remember this analogy. So because by looking at this analogy you can see this whole entire picture so beautifully. Okay, so here it goes. See the truth of the matter is very simple. I as life, as existence, wanted to know who I am. So I dressed up in this body and I hypnotized myself to be this body. Just a thought. This is just a thought, that’s reality. And in this body all of a sudden I wake up to who I am. And not only I recognize that I am nothing but also I recognize that I am everything. Now the analogy is like this. I want you to see this body, my body, as the totality now. The totality is the body. Now I as the totality pretend that I am this finger. So at this moment I hypnotize myself to be this finger, not the totality anymore. So the moment I decide to do this, not only I am pretending to be this finger but also this finger and this finger and these are all I pretend to be. Now the moment I pretend I am this finger, I feel and I think as a finger. Yes? Okay, that’s all there is. So the moment this thing happens, the ignorance happens. So I am ignoring myself to be this totality and I am thinking that I am this finger. So obviously the moment that happens I am looking at myself as this, as this is what I am, and this person is separate from me. This finger also thinks that I am a person. So here we go, we look at each other, of course I am this and you are that. Of course, this looks like we are separated. But are we separated really? In reality? So that’s what it is. So now, as this finger, I see everything as separate from me. Watch, these people are away from me, of course, this is me, this is you, definitely we are separate. But ultimately we are not separate, because ultimately this is what I am. So that is, especially if the people are right now, if they want to listen to this just as a download, I want them to see this analogy with my hands, and always remember my hands, when I am answering the questions, just remember the hands. So this is the picture now. Now this person now, as a finger, the moment this ignorance happens, the mind starts functioning. It is looking immediately for the source. I am immediately looking for myself now. Who am I? This is not happening very obviously, it is not a question of who am I, but very unconsciously, very subtly, this is happening in here. So this “who am I” search starts, and the mind, the first reference of you now, is going to be the mind. You are asking the mind, “Who am I?” And the poor little mind, which is confused now, is now looking. Boom, boom, boom, let me look, ok, I am a teacher, ok, so that is my identity, very good, very good. Now I am a father, oh very nice, very nice, now I am this and I am that, and it keeps adding, and it has this mental image, I am a good finger, I am a generous finger, I am a loving finger, unconditional love, let’s practice all this, but as a finger, I cannot see, because I don’t see the totality, I cannot have that unconditional love that I am talking about. My vision is duality. I see this as me and this as you. There is no way when I see you, I don’t pass judgment. I will, because I see myself separate. And there is no way I don’t go to the mind. So the mind starts chattering, because the mind is searching now, and that’s normal, that’s very normal, because that is the way, now this mind is looking for itself, it’s a self-seeking mind, it wants to define itself. So that’s why, when people say, “How can I stop the mind?” You cannot stop the mind who is hypnotized, who believes that I am this finger. End of the story. This mind is not going to stop. Yes, when you meditate, of course, when you meditate and you just go slowly, slowly, it slows down, sometimes even it comes into a complete silence, of course, like half an hour, nothing may come and go. But the moment you come out of the meditation, because the character is here, there is that “me” character, thought in here exists, that I am the finger, I am this body, so this character is going to come back, and it’s going to function as a finger, not as a totality, as a separate individual. So, stopping the mind, forget it, you cannot stop this mind until this hypnosis drops. The moment this drops, not before that, the moment you recognize the truth, you see the ultimate truth, in other words, this individual finger all of a sudden gets tired of this play, and all of a sudden it says, “You know what? This cannot be, I cannot be this finger, there is no way I’ll be this”. So, it would curve down, it goes like this, and it goes into this cocoon, in this silence, in that stillness, all of a sudden it recognizes there is some sort of connection, something in here is like an awareness, that’s besides this finger, besides this individual. That recognition is not the ultimate freedom, if I just recognize that there is this awareness in here, there is this existence here, but still this character exists in this, as this finger, but this character would recognize that this is not freedom. The freedom is when this finger would all of a sudden turns around like this, and sees the totality. So, once this sees this totality, what happens? The vision changes, instead of having the vision from the finger looking at the rest, the vision is looking like this, this is how I see now.

Rick: The totality is looking.

Ellie: Totality is seeing right now, see that? The totality is now seeing, “Ok, now, this is not only me, this is my finger, but also the rest of these elements are me”. So, I am seeing now, as here, as right above this picture. So, the duality, it drops, and it becomes as unity. Unity means, I see myself as totality, and everything else, all of this is within me. So, I am the totality, including the body, this body is also in me, but I am not it. So, this is the analogy, so every question that arises, I am going to use this analogy. If you are looking at this analogy, you are looking at it from here, you are looking at the question from here, not from the individual character. The first question, the mind is not going to stop, it is going to chatter, this is natural, because this mind is looking for itself. So, you leave it alone, it is not about the mind, it is about, you have to realize that, the reason this is happening, because this is searching for itself, so you need to quiet down, come into this stillness, so that this whole thing clears out, so you can see what is going on in here. That is how it is. I hope that answers, and for your information, the moment this recognition happens, the moment you realize you are the totality, I have good news for you, this chattering, gone, disappears. Guaranteed, promise you, that self-seeking, in the mind, gone. The mind is completely in here, quiet, like a servant, you give order, the mind does it. That is the end of that. The order comes from the source now, not from the character, not from the character, whatsoever. And the character dissolves in this. The moment it recognizes, the moment it sees that, this character is not going to last in here. So, if you have still a character here, who sees the awareness, and it goes to the mind, and comes back to here, wants to be a present, that character is big and clear, sitting there. So, I just want to clarify that, if that is your experience right now, you don’t feel free, because the character is functioning, I am a finger, I am not the totality, you don’t see yourself as this, as existence, as emptiness. That is a conviction, it has to happen as a conviction, for sure. There is no 99.9%, this is a 100% conviction. That’s it, this is what I am, for sure.

Rick: Okay, good. So to make sure that I and the listeners understand the analogy, I believe I do, but I just want to dwell on it for a bit. My desktop picture and also my screen savers are all these NASA photos of the day. So right now I am looking at you, but I also see a galaxy in the background on my screen. And the reason I like that is because it reminds me of the vastness of …

Ellie: You!

Rick: Yeah, of …

Ellie: Of you!

Rick: And I am not just thinking of the vastness of the universe. Whenever I look at pictures like this, I think of the vastness of intelligence, the vastness of being or presence, which gives rise to all this, and in which all this is contained. And that that’s what I am, you know. And so when you speak of the finger and the body, as you say, an analogy, the body in this analogy represents that …

Ellie: The totality?

Rick: The totality, the universal, vast, all-encompassing, great wholeness. And the finger just represents this body, this individual expression. And of course there are millions of fingers, billions of fingers in this analogy, because there are so many individualities, so many expressions. So anyway, that’s what you mean by that analogy. But then of course you said, and maybe this will be elaborated in further questions, but you said that when the totality is realized, then the chattering mind just stops. Of course, that’s the $64,000 question is, “How is the totality realized?”

Ellie: Very good question. r;: Easier said than done, maybe.

Ellie: Ultimately, if I want to give you the one answer, in one sentence, it is the grace of the Divine. r;: But then again, God helps those who help themselves, so we’ll be talking about that.

Ellie: But the ultimate decision is, I as life, as an existence, decide, “In this finger, I want to wake up totally. In this finger, I want to be a murderer.” That’s my decision. In this finger, I want to be just happy-go-lucky being, “I’m happy with this, everything is fine, yes I am this, no problem.” In this finger, I want to be a doctor, very famous, very knowledgeable, and all that, and I don’t believe in any of that, I think science is good, and that’s me again. That’s what I am again. We are all good. I mean, Rick, when you see this totality, you’re not going to say, “Oh, you are a bad guy, you are a murderer, what did you do?” That’s not how it is going to be, because this whole play is in play. And there is no such thing as, “OK, this being now is woke up, now I have to knock everybody’s door and wake them up.” It’s not going to be like that. You’re going to just look at the totality as this view, and then, OK, if somebody comes on your way, and interested, they send me email, fine, I take care of that. But if it’s not, if somebody says, “Oh, I don’t believe in this, this is nonsense, and OK, I’m happy,” leave them alone. That’s how this life, that’s how I want to behave as that. So, there is no question.

Rick: Good, I like that answer. OK, let’s go on to number two. “How can I get rid of the ego?”

Ellie: OK, very good. How can I get rid of this character now, it’s sitting here and pretends that I am this finger again. My answer to this is that, maybe this analogy helps, the ego, this character is just a belief, it’s not real, it’s just a belief in my head that I am this finger. So, it’s not a reality. So, I’m not going to go and put energy on some belief, which is not even real. OK, let me show you what I mean. Let’s say you are in a very, very dark room, which absolutely is pitch black, you don’t see anything, you don’t even see the body. That’s darkness, OK? Now, you can do two things. One is just take a broom and go after this darkness, try to get rid of it. That’s how people do, try to get rid of the ego, which doesn’t even exist. Ego does not exist, it’s just a thought in the head. That thought in the head makes this whole entire game play. Now, in this dark room, I can also do something else, I can touch the wall and look for the light. OK, just the moment I turn on the light, what happens? The darkness is gone. So, that’s what I am talking about. See, the moment this finger turns around and sees the totality, what happens? Automatically, the ego drops for good. This path is the path of cancellation of that ego, cancellation for good. This ego is not going to come back and play games with you anymore, because you know who you are now, you see yourself as the totality. This shift of the vision is the key. You see, again I repeat that, if you have some knowledge, some experience of the awareness in here, but if this character is still functioning in here, and doesn’t see itself as the totality, you still feel that, as a person, as an individual, so you can’t see the big picture. You know what I am saying? So, the moment that shift of the view happens, that the shift, shift means that all of a sudden I see myself as rising above this, and I am seeing this whole picture, like this, away from it, away from it. And all of a sudden I notice, “Oh, this was funny”. You laugh, you are going to laugh for the rest of your life. For good. You know, just how could I fall into something like this? It’s just beautiful, it’s just orchestrated so beautifully.

Rick: How did I ever see the string as a snake?

Ellie: Yes, yes, exactly, exactly.

Rick: Now, do you see yourself as nothing, I mean, as a combination of totality expressed as this particular finger? I mean, you know, there is still a sort of a … the life of Ellie, you know, and that is still a finger, it is not all the fingers.

Rick: Just look at me, you can answer the question. Watch the way I am looking. This is Ellie, this is Rick. Where is me? Where is me? I am here, always, always.

Rick: But of course, you are the totality, this is the totality speaking through Rick, the totality speaking through Ellie.

Ellie: Absolutely, I see both of these bodies now, these two are me. There is no Rick and Ellie separate. These are just instruments, these are not really… these are vehicles. I see this as a vehicle, this is a vehicle. And that is who is talking to me right now, is a vehicle. There is only this existence, which I am, functioning through this finger, which is Ellie, and talking. It is not a person, this is not a personal anymore, there is no person here. But there is existence in here. See, this is how it makes it so difficult. This person, in this path, would recognize the truth, and it has to say, ultimately, that “I am that truth”. It would recognize this emptiness, existence, and it would declare, this is the last sentence that this character is going to say, this is the last one, until it drops. And it says, “I am that”. This drop has to drop into the ocean, if it didn’t drop, if the drop is still outside, thinking itself as separate from the ocean, although it sees the ocean, but it is not one with the ocean. Do you see that? That is the problem of majority of the people I talk to. They are still as a drop, the drop didn’t drop yet. And you know what they do? When I talk to them, they go dance around that, they go in the circle, they don’t want to jump into the center of the circle, they like to be a seeker, to be in the circumference of the circle, over and over, tail chasing.

Rick: Do they have a choice of dropping, or is it grace, as you said earlier?

Ellie: No, this is the grace, this part, nobody can help you.

Rick: So the person can’t just say, “Ok, I want to drop now, here I go, boom!” It has to be grace.

Ellie: It has to be grace. The grace decides, the grace of the existence, say, “You know what? That’s enough. I am done. I have enough with this game, and I am not for sure.” And you know what? This recognition of the awareness, when it happens, the life is your guru. The life that you have, that is going to teach you how to be this. It will bring you some challenges, over and over again, so that you see, “Am I this character now? Am I a finger? Or am I this totality?” Constantly, it brings that, constantly. And you see now, a shift happened in here. It is not functioning as a person anymore, this is totality talking right now. This is not a person.

Rick: But totality is functioning as a person, or through a person.

Ellie: Absolutely, but there is no person here, this is inert. This is not a person.

Rick: But this person through whom totality is functioning, has eyes, ears, nose, has intellect, mind, senses, and those are all tools or faculties through which totality functions. Now isn’t there also some remnant at least of ego or “I-sense”, which is just one of the faculties, like senses, like intellect, like mind, which kind of makes this entity capable of functioning?

Ellie: Well, I don’t know what you mean by “I-sense”, you have to describe that. “I” means I am a body again, as a finger?

Rick: No, not that you identify with it.

Ellie: Which one? Which “I” are we talking about? You have to be very clear. If you are talking about “I” as a totality, yes, “I” is a totality speaking. Inside you have to know what is going on. You see, inside, although there is really not inside, you are talking about in the core of your being, you need to know who you are. Then in this play, of course you play. Now, for example, let me give you a very simple example. Tomorrow is a Mother’s Day, very simple. I know for a fact that I am not the mother. For a fact. Now, do I play now, tomorrow, as a role of the mother? Of course I do. And they call me “mommy”. “Mommy”, am I answering or no? Yes, of course. It’s just like a play, you become an actor, Rick, in a movie. In this movie you are a doctor. Your name is Robert now. You have a wife and three children in this movie. And this movie lasts, let’s say, three years, from the beginning to the end. So in this movie you are playing the role of this doctor. So you have to do whatever this doctor does. So when they call you “Robert”, you turn around. And then there is a wife in there, and you make believe as if she is your wife, there are children as if they are your children. That’s exactly how it is. But are you going to lose your identity in this movie? No, you know you are Rick. You know that this is a game, this is just a play.

Rick: So you have a play identity. So there is an identity, but it’s not ultimately real.

Ellie: No.

Rick: In Sanskrit there is this term “lesha avidya”, which means “faint remains of ignorance”, and it’s said that there is this superficial remnant, which makes the living possible.

Ellie: Exactly!

Rick: Otherwise you just be like…

Ellie: I’m not going to say I’m not this Ellie Roozdar, date of birth., I went to the driver’s license place the other day. So they are going to take this picture, and this is what you are, this is your driver’s license. So in the play…

Rick: They don’t put “totality” on your driver’s license.

Ellie: Exactly! So you know your true identity. That’s why I’m saying this pattern is an intelligent, ready mind, to know, to recognize the difference between the truth, which you are, and the play, and the fiction. The mind has to recognize that, and don’t get mixed up. It’s not going to say, “Oh, so now that I’m nothing, so then what’s going to happen if somebody calls me?” No! If somebody calls you, you are Ellie, you are Rick, of course. You are not going to lose your head, you are not going to lose your mind, ladies and gentlemen. You are going to be gaining yourself as the ultimate truth, which is this, which is this. It’s not this anymore, for sure. But that doesn’t mean that you don’t love this. You love this even more, because this is your instrument now, this is your vehicle. Through this, I recognize myself as the ultimate truth. So I love this. And this is allowing me to smell a nice, beautiful flower. That is the instrument now. I can eat a nice meal and enjoy that taste of that meal, through this. So I am going to love this even more. But the love that I am talking about is not selfish, self-centered, egoic, character minded, kind of a love, “me, me, me, me”. No, that’s not going to be that. It’s going to be the love, which I love for that body also, who is talking. Same, same. It’s the same love. It’s all embracing, welcoming, all inclusive. Let’s put it this way, all inclusive love. You see this, this is how you see it. You see all of them like they are you. You cannot say, “Oh, I like this one a bit more than that one.” These are my fingers.

Rick: Which is the golden rule, isn’t it? Love your neighbor as yourself?

Ellie: Absolutely.

Rick: That’s what that means.

Ellie: Yeah, who says, “I love your neighbor”?

Rick: Jesus.

Ellie: Jesus! My goodness! Of course! Because His vision is this vision, not as a character, “Love your neighbor”. Okay, they do that. “Oh, I am a nice character, I love my neighbor, I take care of my neighbor”. That’s the very, very superficial level. If you train yourself to be a nice person, and unconditional loving, and polishing this finger, you cannot, this is not the path of purifying, this is not the path of polishing yourself, to become a better individual, or more spiritual, like, “Yes, better finger, better finger”. We are not talking about that. We are saying, in this path, you are not a finger. Period. Oh, look at that!

Rick: She is making a fuss.

Ellie: Adorable! Let me see, let me see the eyes. Oh my goodness! Oh my goodness!

Rick: Say hi Lila!

Ellie: Lila? Lila!

Rick: Lila, yeah.

Ellie: Lila!

Rick: She is restless, she likes to sit on my lap during these interviews.

Ellie: That’s beautiful.

Rick: Now we are all set, now we can settle down.

Ellie: Adorable!

Rick: Good, so what you were just saying is, in terms of, it’s really about putting things in the proper perspective, proper proportion. It’s not that anything is lost, it’s just that everything is relegated to its proper role. And instead of the finger kind of taking over and being the dominant thing, the whole body, the whole totality. So instead of the individuality saying, “This is what I am, and nothing more”, it says, “I am this totality, functioning through this individuality.”

Ellie: Excellent!

Rick: And through this individuality, here, and all of them.

Ellie: All inclusive. See, at the same time, this is very paradoxic, I am at the same time, I am nothing, yet I am everything. And it shifts, it just goes back, at the same time, it’s both.

Rick: Yeah, yeah.

Ellie: So you are not going to renounce one of them, you are not going to say, “I am only nothingness.” You are not going to be stuck in there. You say, “I am everythingness, everything I see, that’s what I am.” That body is the same, this is oneness, it’s talking. There is no two people right now, talking, interacting, at all. I don’t see it like that, at all.

Rick: Good, let’s go on to question 3. Is there any technique to be more present and have a peaceful life?

Ellie: Now you can answer that, Rick. What technique are we talking about? If you think you are a character again, yes, you have to use all these techniques. How can I calm myself down? How can I bring myself to the present? But as long as you are this character, as a finger, peace is never going to find you. Peace is never going to find you, because you think you are this finger. So even though you go to the seminars, they teach you how to breathe, and how to meditate, and how to bring yourself to the present, you can’t bring yourself to the present, because you as a person are searching outside to find yourself.

Rick: Although there are techniques that have you search inside, like at the very beginning of this interview, you wanted us to close our eyes and take a deep breath, and recognize the presence.

Ellie: Exactly, that’s the only way. The real way is to just curve back inside, and see what’s going on in here. That is the real search, that’s the true search. Other than that, this character is not going to find peace. It cannot be in the present moment, try that. People say, “Oh, I try to come to the present moment, few minutes I am here, then I go back.” Because this present moment to the character who is searching, it’s death, it doesn’t want that, it doesn’t want to stay here, this is too boring. This presence is too boring for the character, but once the character drops, this is absolute joy, absolute ecstasy, absolute peace and fulfillment at every single breath. Every breath is this, and this is absolute, complete. You know you don’t have to be anywhere, nothing has to happen from outside, I am this.

Rick: But that’s once the character has dropped, but for the vast majority of people the character hasn’t dropped, so the question was, is there some technique to drop it?

Ellie: No, I cannot.

Rick: Well, you say, curve back.

Ellie: Yes, just curve back.

Rick: And there are effective techniques which can actually be taught, which can facilitate that curving back.

Ellie: Curving back to do what? To not to just, “Oh, I just want to curve back and relax, and see what happens.” That’s not what I am talking about. This path is about when you curve back, when you quiet down, that silence is talking to you. The silence is pointing. See, when you go curve back like that, this silence is talking to you, so you can see all of a sudden, the truth, like this. That silence is pointing towards the truth that you are. And in that silence the truth awakens to itself, it wakes up. Not in the middle of all these mental activities necessarily, majority of the time, I am not talking about exceptions. Every teaching that we see right now, if you are talking about Buddhism, Zen, even Sufism, there is this one common denominator in all of them. And what is that? Silence. Just go to the silence. I am not against going to the satsangs and teachers and talking, and reading books and internet, there is nothing wrong with that. But ultimately, if you have done all of them, and this thing didn’t work, that is because you as a character, does not know this silence very well, does not honor this silence very well, and do not want to jump into that. That’s the bottom line. So, the silence, that’s the key. Now, how you want to do it? There are so many methods. For me, it is just quiet down, stay and be. Allow every thought comes in and out, you don’t have to stop it. You can stop it. I just told you, the mind does not stop until you know who you are. So, you allow this come and go, emotions come and go, in that presence that you are, that the truth that you are. And slowly, slowly, you notice that you are just being. And some people, that’s very unbelievable things they say to me. They say, “I have been teaching meditation for many, many years, and they are still stuck, they don’t know who they are. They call me and we talk, and I say, “Ok, for the next two weeks, all I am asking you to do, just close your eyes and be, just be.” They are sending me back an email, “I have hard time to be, I just cannot be.” How could you not be? Try it, try to cancel this being, see if you can. These are the mind, these are the characters talking. The character says, “I cannot just be.” Every time I feel like I am being, I get anxiety. So, to me, that’s just like, I answer them nicely, lovingly, but try to understand who is talking. This is the character talking, “I can’t be.” What is that? That is how you want to be in the circle, you want to be a seeker, because you want to keep seeking. This path is God. Once you see the ultimate truth, seeking stops for good. And all these practices, how to be present, and how not to think, these are all drops. No practice, no nothing, no search, everything, you are just that. And you just live like that. That’s why we call this liberation. Liberation doesn’t mean, “I know that I am aware, but every moment I have to remember myself as that.” No, no. This is not based on a memory base. It’s not memory based. You don’t have to remember who you are, you are that. That is what you are.

Rick: Yeah, very much so, and you are not going to lose it by forgetting to think about it, or any such thing. It’s in your bones, it’s just stabilized.

Ellie: Yes, but Rick, because truth knows itself. Once it recognizes itself, how could you lose yourself? That to me is just absurd.

Rick: Right, but again you are speaking of the perspective from the destination, and there are people obviously who are not there, who are saying, “Well, is there some technique?” And as you said, Sufism, Buddhism, Hinduism, all these “isms” have techniques that can be helpful. And even you, you mentioned going to satsangs. A lot of times people go to satsangs and it’s all just on the mental level, but sometimes people really awaken in these satsangs, because there is a sort of a resonance that takes place, with the silence of the teacher, and it enables the other people to attune to that level of silence, or some degree of it, and then it does facilitate an awakening for many people. So I wouldn’t reject that either.

Ellie: No, there is nothing to reject. What I am saying is that I didn’t go to any satsangs, I don’t have any teachers, my way was just silence, going within. These satsangs are all good, especially if your mind is ready, if this character is ready to see the truth, of course, the moment it sees… People sit next to me, all of a sudden I see that they just lose them, they collapse. I see them, they collapse. That means the character collapses. It just becomes this, they become this. And then this is talking. That’s how it happens, of course. But to me, the way I experienced myself in this body was, I needed, this body needed to be quiet. This body has to be still, because ultimately you need to jump into this stillness, that you are.

Rick: Yeah, you would lie there for three hours and not move a muscle.

Ellie: Exactly!

Rick: People can hear that in the first interview you discussed that.

Ellie: Yes, yes, I’m not saying… This was helping me to just recognize the silence that is here, is pointing into this ultimate truth that is here. And I told you in that interview, I had these experiences of a love affair. I was thinking, I am a character, and I am going this inside, and there was a love affair here, and I thought there is two, there is this me, and there is the totality. See? And this is the love affair we are having. But in one of these love affairs, one of them, this character dropped. It just burned out. So, once it came out, it was only this. But this awareness arise, just woke up, but it was still a duality. I still was seeing myself, for some reason, in this body, very attached to the body at the beginning. But after a while, the moment you recognize this, the attention of the body automatically goes back to this, to the source. I don’t know, for some, this is just effortlessly. Effortlessly, this attention, instead of going out, it seems like it discovered something, it comes back all of a sudden here. And then, once it’s here, that peace and everything was felt, and in one of those walking that I was doing, all of a sudden I saw everything is in me. Which, it starts a little bit, just on and off, on and off, and now, of course, that eye opens up wide open. Once that eye opens up, this eye belongs to the finger, closes up. It closes up, it’s not going to stay open. That vision never changes, ever. You see people inside of you. Just pay attention, I take people to the walk meditation, I ask them to close their eyes, I hold their hands, I ask them to walk and see, are you walking, or the body is walking in you? Because you are stillness, you are still, the body is moving in you. That’s for sure, you experience that, this is direct experience, this is not something you believe from me. Don’t believe anything that I am saying, you need to experience all of that. This vision I am talking about, that has to happen in you, that eye has to open to see the totality like this, not as a finger. You don’t see yourself as a finger, other people as a finger. That’s for sure.

Rick: But as you say, even in your own case, it took time, and there were degrees of clarity and stabilization and integration, and at times it was intermittent and then it became more stable. So people shouldn’t feel like, if it’s not instantly and completely what you are describing for them, that they are doing something wrong. Just be patient and carry on, and it will mature.

Ellie: Absolutely, and there is nothing wrong, there is no wrongdoing here. Whatever body this is functioning, each body is different. So the life that I am, I don’t like copies. In each body I like to be awakened differently. In Ellie it’s different, I don’t want copies. I don’t want the same exact thing happen. 7 billion people here, in some bodies, I don’t want to even wake up. On this one, I don’t want to wake up, I want to just stay like that. What’s wrong with that?

Rick: And this one I want to be a cat, and this one I want to be a crab or a snail or whatever.

Ellie: Exactly, and you enjoy yourself as this … look at this miracle, Rick. Everything is a miracle. I see sometimes these dog shows, look at the different variety of dogs, and sizes, and their attitude. They even talk about their attitude, they say, “This particular dog has this particular character.” You know, it’s amazing.

Rick: I know, it’s marvelous, the creativity of God or intelligence.

Ellie: All which is you, we don’t forget, it’s you, that’s what you are. Just claim it, Rick, claim it. We need to claim that, you need to know that you are that. You are not apart from that, you are it.

Rick: Yes, but it’s not just a matter of saying that. It’s like a poor man saying, “Okay, I am the king,” or “I am the president of the United States.” I mean, there are people on the street who are delusional, who are like that. It’s a matter of really, genuinely living it.

Ellie: Living it, absolutely.

Rick: And you don’t necessarily live it just by saying, “I am the totality.” There has to be some reality to that.

Ellie: You feel every breath, you feel that, you feel it, you feel that “I am this expansion.” No more this, for a fact. I mean, that has to be… and it shows, the way you look, your eyes, the way you look at the people, it’s coming from the source. It’s not coming from the character anymore. There is no character, because there is no character, never been. The character never existed. I’m just going to repeat that many, many times. Do not go and pay attention to the character, and try to kill it, and try to get rid of it. Don’t do that. That is another trap.

Rick: Just turn on the light switch.

Ellie: Turn on the light switch, and automatically, automatically, that goes away, by itself, effortlessly.

Rick: Good. Let’s go on to the next question, which actually pertains to this. “I know that I am awareness, but I still feel inadequate, limited and unhappy. I don’t feel that I am free yet. What is wrong with this picture?”

Ellie: Yes, we just discussed that. As long as you think that you are a finger, and you are not the totality, you feel limited, unhappy and miserable. This is miserable. I mean, how can I be this finger? My goodness, how can you be this? Ask yourself, is that possible? At age 6 I saw that. I saw that I am not, oh my God, this is not, that doesn’t make sense to me, at all. I was not identified. And this is the same eyes, it’s not the different eyes. But at the moment when I was experiencing that, it was very scary to me, because I didn’t know who I was. Now, I see it again, the same eyes looking, but this eyes now is, although I don’t know who I am. This truth is a mystery. You cannot define who you are. This is not definable, you are undefined.

Rick: In words.

Ellie: Exactly, I cannot say one thing about this. I cannot describe this, but you can be it. You can fully be it. No doubt, without any doubt, you need to claim this conviction. The bottom line is conviction. You are still thinking unhappy and all that, because you think still you are a person.

Rick: So yeah, when the person says, “I know I am awareness, but I am miserable”, that knowledge of awareness must be somewhat just conceptual, not actually living it.

Ellie: Some of the feelings, some of the…

Rick: Some mixture, yeah, there is some mixture in there.

Ellie: I work with people, with Skype, and I was working with some guy who had been in Zen monastery for all his life, all his life. And he called me and he says, “Look, I don’t know who I am, just help me out.” So we did this walking meditation together, just walking together, step by step, over the Skype, and I do that all the time.

Rick: How do you do that? Do they have to sit at their computer?

Ellie: Yes, and then the guy was just… That’s how I do it, that’s how my retreats are right now, pretty much through Skype, and people can come in. And we did it step by step. I don’t tell you who you are. You tell me, when we go down together, scuba diving together, I’ll be with you, like a coach, not as a guru, not as someone who wants to pour information into your head, “Oh, you are consciousness, you are awareness, you are this and that.” That’s not my style. I am going to take you there, we go together, and we go deep down, and I’m going to ask you the question, especially for the people who have done meditation, they are familiar with this area, they know, they trust this. So I ask you the question, you see there is a stillness, and there is a truth in here, which is always here, something that is never come and go. It’s also aware of this emptiness, of this silence also. Now tell me who you are. So he noticed that, he recognized that completely, completely he recognized the truth, awakened, and he started laughing, laughing, laughing, and then he says, “Yes, absolutely, there is no question about that.” And I ask him many, many times, “Are you this? Tell me this, tell me you are, are you this?” So he said that many times, “Yes, I am this, I am this.” So then, about a month later, he calls me, he said, “My mind went crazy, I couldn’t even meditate, I was sick the next day, my mind was going crazy, of course, this feels like death to the mind, this is like a suicide, I’m telling you, it’s like suicide.”

Rick: So it’s rebelling.

Ellie: Yes, the character, because the character doesn’t want to die, this is like, “Oh my God, I am nothing?” What is that? But this feeling of death is very strong for some of these characters, they rather to be this miserable little finger, let’s put it this way, they rather, “Oh no, no, no, this is too much for me.” And so many people, when I ask them, “Are you ready to die? Are you ready to die to this you character and your life?” Honestly, believe me, I get emails that they said, “No, I’m not ready.” So then it’s a readiness, that mind has to be ready, mature, at least to the level of maturity, it says that, “You know what? I deserve this, and this is it, that’s what I am.” That’s the last thing that this character is going to say.

Rick: Yeah, that’s a good point about maturity and about readiness. You may have heard of Shankara, he was the founder of Advaita Vedanta, and he talks about stages of development that people may undergo, or even practices they may do before actually being worthy of or ready to actually have the final realization. And he said it may involve selfless service or meditation or different things, and it sort of cultures and refines the whole structure to the point where realization can really dawn. Some people don’t like that kind of talk in non-dual circles, but the founder of non-duality talked that way.

Ellie: Yes, absolutely. Let me talk about this maturity, I give a simple example to the people. Rick, if there is a 2 year old boy, let’s say, sitting here, and in one hand I have a half a million dollar diamond, and in another hand I have an ice cream cone. Which one he is going to take? Absolutely, that’s his maturity, right? But the same boy, at age 25, the same deal, which one he is going to pick? Diamond, because now he sees that the maturity, he sees that diamond as a valuable thing. Although the ice cream is very tempting, but you know that that’s the value, correct?

Rick: You can buy a lot of ice cream with that diamond.

Ellie: Exactly, very good. That’s the maturity I am talking about. The maturity of the mind is that, when we go together in this walking meditation, when you see the truth, your mind, this character, has to be ready to say “yes” to this.

Rick: Sure

Ellie: Absolutely, that’s what I am. Although he still sees the duality, it doesn’t matter, you trust this. You need to trust this, although this is not a tangible thing, this is not a thing to hold on, and it’s like a free fall. It looks like a free fall, it’s like a death. But this death has to happen to this character. This character cannot be here and also identify and recognize some awareness is here. It’s not going to work. This character has to die into this, so that it would see itself as a totality. So the character dissolves in this. So I really want you to remember everyone, this analogy I gave you, and try to do it yourself. When you are listening to this, just see what exactly this is the vision. This is the vision, reality vision is like this. So your vision is going to change for good. So that’s how you look at everything.

Rick: Good, let’s go on to the next one. Here’s another one that starts with the same phrase, “I know that I am awareness,” that’s the way the previous question started, “this moment, but when I go to the mind and in relationships, I lose it. How can I remember it all the time and not lose it?”

Ellie: So who’s talking now? The character is talking again.

Rick: The character is thinking, “How can I, the character, hang on to this?”

Ellie: Exactly. The character is still here, recognized there is some awareness here, right in the moment, “Yes, I feel it, this is aware, but then when I go to the mind…” So there is a character in the middle, it goes to the mind and comes back. So you need to close your eyes and check, does this character exist? The attention goes to the mind, the mind arises from this, from this state where you are, the mind, mental activity arises from you, but you don’t go anywhere. Where are you going? You are here, folks. You do not go anywhere. The attention of the body may go to the mind and come back, there is nothing wrong with that. Once you know yourself, let’s put it this way, once you know yourself, any thought is welcome, as long as you know who you are. Any emotion, any emotion is welcome.

Rick: I suppose people might say, “Well, yeah, but it’s easy for me to remember who I am when I’m walking on the beach, or just meditating and taking it easy, then that presence is lively, but boy, when I go to work, my boss starts yelling at me, or when my kids start doing this, or my wife starts doing that, then I lose it. So it’s not maintained under trying circumstances.

Ellie: That is again because there is a character still there. The character has to remember that I am awareness.

Ellie: So how does the character remember that in the midst of Times Square, in the midst of a difficult situation? Is there a way to remember it, or is it either it’s there to whatever extent it’s really there, and it’s remembered or it isn’t spontaneously?

Ellie: It is there always.

Rick: Yeah, but consciously? Absolutely, because that’s you! Because the truth is you! You and the truth are one. How could you lose yourself? Try it.

Rick: But obviously, many people are very overshadowed, they do crazy things, they commit crimes, they beat others, and so on. They don’t seem to be remembering it under those circumstances.

Ellie: Yes, absolutely, because they know that, because they think that I am this character. This is what I think I am, and I have a mental belief about myself. I have this thing in my head, that “Who am I?” as a character. And I see you as a character, and I have a mental belief about you, and when I kill you, I’m not killing really you, I’m killing you, that mental character that I think you are. Correct? So that killing is going to happen. Now, when I’m looking at this as this awareness, as this existence, is this being who killed the other one, he has to be blamed at all? Is there any blame here? This doesn’t know who he is. He thinks he is a finger, he thinks he is a character. So, where is the blame? How can I do this?

Rick: Forgive them father, they know not what they do.

Ellie: Yeah, because the ignorance right now is in functioning, he is ignorant.

Rick: But what we are talking about is people whose ignorance seems to be intermittent, people who are maybe seekers, and they find that sometimes they recognize totality, and then other times they lose it. And the questioner is saying, “Well, how can I stabilize it, so it’s not lost?”

Ellie: Well, honestly, there is no practice here, because I know for a fact, when the drop drops, let’s put it this way, all of these practices are gone.

Rick: So it comes back to grace.

Ellie: That’s exactly true. That’s why we call it liberation. Liberation from what? From all these practices. “Oh, I have to practice, I have to be here, I have to remember this awareness, I have to remember that.” That still is not… the drop didn’t drop.

Rick: But until the drop has dropped, can practices be helpful? I mean, you have your walking thing that you teach, for instance. It’s like they say, “It takes a thorn to remove a thorn,” and so until the thorn is removed, maybe you need a thorn.

Ellie: Absolutely. Once you recognize the awareness, the attention, try to try, that’s maybe only the practice. Bring the attention back to the source. That’s all. Just see what you saw in the meditation. Let’s say we do together a walking meditation, or anything, just walking, closing the eyes, you recognize the truth. You saw that. Just make sure that… that diamond I just talked to you, make sure that you recognize the truth as the diamond, because the truth is very simple. Your mind, if it’s not ready, it’s going to say, “That’s not it.”

Rick: Okay, so you’re saying, until you know yourself as source, by whatever means works for you, learn to bring your attention back to source, if it seems to have been cast off, and seems to have been lost.

Ellie: If you can, yes. And not as a very difficult and hard…

Rick: Yeah, don’t strain and struggle.

Ellie: Right, don’t struggle. You have to see the truth as a valuable thing. You have to value what is. The mind has to recognize that, that although this is nothing, but this is not a nothing. This is not a nothing, this is everything. This mind has to be ready for it. If the mind is not ready, no matter how much interaction I give it to you. That’s why I ask the people, “Are you ready to die? Are you ready to die for this truth?” And if they say yes, I have to ask them again and again, to make sure this person is not, “I just want to get some taste of it.” This is like, I was talking to someone two days ago, actually, this gentleman, he was calling from California. Have you seen, if you’re sitting on the beach, and then you see different people going into the water, especially in Hawaii, I go visit my family and all, and there are some people, you see them, they just take off their clothes and they just run and then jump into the water. You see that? That is the attitude.

Rick: Other people stick their toe in…

Ellie: Yes, some people they stick their toe, “Oh, this is too cold for me, now I have to come back, now I have to go sit back again, now I have to come back again, and now I go halfway…” That is the attitude of the ego, that’s the attitude of the character. I want, in this path, your attitude has to be just, “Jump!”

Rick: Well, the funny thing here is, though, like earlier you were saying, “Well, as a totality, I see this finger wants to be asleep, this finger wants to be a murderer, this finger wants to be a saint, this finger wants to be a doctor.” And so there is a kind of a paradox here, because on the one hand you are saying that totality just enjoys all this variety, and some people are thick-headed and some are not. But on the other hand you are saying, “Well, if you’re…” I guess when you say this, you are speaking to the fingers that are on the verge of waking up.

Ellie: Exactly! And maybe there, part of the deal would be to actually have a little bit of choice as to one’s attitude, one’s willingness, one’s sincerity, one’s readiness. One can put some attention on being more receptive.

Ellie: Exactly, we are not talking about those other people, they want to be just like that, they want to be this finger for the rest of their lives. That’s okay. I’m not even talking… you see, this is a spectrum, the way that these fingers function. Imagine this one extreme, someone says, “I am absolutely this body, this is me, this is the reality…”

Rick: Yeah, when the body dies, that’s the end of it.

Ellie: Exactly, or even now, “Yes, I believe in a God, there is a creation, I am separated, I want to be One.” These are the same category, again. They are starting here. But then there are some group of people that are in the middle. They say, “Oh, I’m happy with this body, this is easy, this is not… I listen to music, I go for a walk, okay, fine, that’s you.” But then there is this one category that they know something is not, “This cannot be it, I cannot be this finger.” This is the group I’m talking about now. I’m talking to that group.

Rick: And those are the people who contact you, and those probably by and large are the people who would actually be listening to this.

Ellie: Absolutely, I’m talking about this group that they say, “I am seeker, I have been doing this for a long time.” Guys calling me, “I’ve been in this path for 25 years, I have done all these meditations, yogas, what’s wrong with this?” They keep saying that, because they don’t know that, first of all, recognition has to be correct recognition. Because some people think that, “Oh, this is a space of emptiness and silence, and that emptiness, like a death emptiness, that is what I am, it’s like a black hole.” That’s not a black hole. If you meditate, you know this is not empty, this is full. So, because according to the mind, mind thinks this is, “Oh my God, I’m going to become nothing, what happened, I’m going to die.” That is the mind talking. But that’s why I say to people, if you have been meditating, if your mind is familiar with this space, and is comfortable with this, feels home, trust that, because ultimately this mind character has to dive into this. Isn’t that so? Ultimately, it has to say, “This is me, yes.” It has to say yes to this. So, if this mind never practiced any kind of silence, it has been all over the place. If you do this walking meditation, this mind says, “I’m not comfortable here, I have to get out of here.” I see people at the beginning, they say, “Well, when I close my eyes, I feel like I’m suffocating.” Yes, of course.

Rick: Because they are just so unaccustomed to doing that.

Ellie: Yes, they are unaccustomed, they don’t know what is facing. But slowly, slowly, the mind gets used to it. The mind sees this, “Ok, no, although it’s emptiness, but it’s not really. This is really home.” Mind has to say, “This is home.” Until ultimately mind says, “I am home.” Not “I am at home.” Right, “I am that.” “I am home.” That’s the difference.

Rick: “Aham brahmasmi.”

Ellie: Which is?

Rick: “I am that, I am Brahman.”

Ellie: “I am that, I am that.” That’s the ultimate thing. That’s the conviction.

Rick: Ok, good. Let’s go on to the next question. Each one of these questions is somewhat similar to the others, but each one is bringing out a different flavor. So the next question is, “I want to get closer to God, pray every day to be a better individual, find my mission and have a positive effect in the world. How does the path of self-realization help me?”

Ellie: Very good question. See, this is a real character, now he is very innocent, very innocent. And this character believes that, “I am this finger, but I’m looking for God, ok? So I want to know how this path is going to help me.” This character, it has a strong, already strong belief, now, that “I am definitely separated from the Source.” The Source is One, “I am separate.” So it doesn’t see, see, this finger does not see any connection whatsoever.

Rick: It’s like the person is asking, “How can I be a better finger? I want to be a positive finger.”

Ellie: Yes, “I want to be a positive finger.” There is no service. Once you recognize, look at the totality, what is the mission of every finger? The fingers, they don’t have really mission. The fingers have to work together for the totality. The totality decides what is going on. The dance is in the hands of the totality. So, not individuality of every finger anymore. So, if you are individually wanting to have a mission, what kind of a mission this finger can have? All my life, what kind of a mission this finger did have? Nothing. There is no mission. So, in this path, the totality is functioning as One, through every single individual. So, you are not separate entity to have a mission. So, try to become a better person, more purified, and none of that. In this path, to my friends I am telling you, I dare you, at the beginning of this path, drop your belief. Drop it. I dare you. Once you know the truth, whatever is right, it comes to you. So, you see that Jesus says all beautiful quotes, you hear here and there, and you see, “Oh my God, yes, that is from the source. This message is from the source, absolute.”

Rick: So, let’s take some practical examples. Some people do have a very definite calling. Some people are excellent musicians, or they feel a call to be a doctor, or to be a politician, or to serve in some way, they have a desire to do that. And very often it doesn’t pay very much, they might just volunteer their time, they want to help animals, from being abused, or whatever. So, the question is, are you saying that they need to drop that? Because they are asking, “Would self-realization actually help me be a better musician, a better doctor, a better humanitarian?”

Ellie: Look at the picture again. This wants to be a musician, good for him. Because I, as a totality, want to be a musician here. So I would do my very best in there. So, I’m going to perform with heart. I play with my heart, not with my mind. I play like there is nobody around me.

Rick: Yeah, so you’re saying if you know yourself to be the totality, then you can be a much better violinist, or a much better cellist, or whatever.

Ellie: I don’t even call it better, I want to say everything comes from the heart.

Rick: You’re playing from source, rather than just…

Ellie: Like cooking, if you’re cooking from the heart, the source is cooking. When I cook, I don’t taste the food. It’s just the hands know, this knows. And when you taste the food, there is enough seasoning, I promise you. That’s cooking from the heart. Cooking from the mind, I have to measure everything. I take this measurement, “OK, this much salt, this much this and that.” That’s not what we’re talking about, a little bit higher, big picture we’re talking about. So, you can be anything you want, there is no question. But that’s how the Divine wants to be. And there is nothing wrong with that. As long as you know who you are, that instrument that you’re playing is not a character playing. Characters play to impress other people. Characters play for the money. But if you love to play this, you play it as the source. And that’s why we have all these genius musicians, when they are on the stage, the source is playing. Fully.

Rick: Yeah, there’s even athletes like that, basketball players. Michael Jordan, when he was really playing well, he was playing from source.

Ellie: Absolutely, everybody. Once you are in the present playing, the character dissolves. You got to believe me. When you are intense, when functioning something that you love, the character is not there. And that’s why you see these beautiful paintings. Why these paintings are worth millions of dollars? Because the source made, drew that. The source drew all of that. So, there is a difference. That’s why that picture, Mona Lisa, that smile is worthless, I mean priceless.

Rick: Right, priceless you mean.

Ellie: Priceless, because that smile, what is that smile? That smile talks to you. That smile is a content smile. That smile says, “I know who I am, and I am this.” And that smile is a smile of the final, final. That’s it. I am that. That’s why that’s worth millions. I went to France, I saw this.

Rick: Mona Lisa?

Ellie: There are guards all around that. Guys are standing, not only just covered up, but the guys are right around that. It’s not the value of the thing, it’s that message that comes out of it. It’s so alive. That message is just like Rumi’s poetry, it’s alive. That’s not a dead thing on a paper.

Rick: Good. The next two questions are similar, and we’ve actually sort of covered this point, so we don’t have to go on too long, but it’s basically the question of having profound experience, like the experience of totality, and then losing it again. And then another person asks, “Well, once you’re awakened, can you lose it?”

Ellie: Okay, the experiences, I just want to emphasize, do not just chase experiences, because the ultimate truth is right here. The experience happens in you and moves out. But there is something here that doesn’t come and go. That is what you have to recognize, and that is what you have to fall in love with, not the experience. Because I personally was trapped with this experience as a person, for two and a half years, just going down here, having a love affair. Going down here, having a love affair.

Rick: And then losing it?

Ellie: And losing it. When you come out of the meditation, you’re just a normal individual again, person.

Rick: Right, so it’s back and forth.

Ellie: The experience is not going to help you. And especially there are some teachers, I see people say, “Oh, this teacher had such and such experience.” If somebody constantly emphasizes on experiences, this person, this character is still there, is so proud of his experiences, and trying to show off these experiences. Once the character dies, you’re not going to be interested in experiences anymore, because this path is not about experience, any kind of experience. This path is about “Who am I as this?” And that is fulfilling, is satisfying in every breath. Every breath, the joy of it is just so here.

Rick: So, “Who I am as this”, can that be lost? Can that come and go? Or could there be a phase where I know I am this, and then, “Oh, I forgot it again.”

Ellie: No, because this is not…

Rick: Or once it’s known, it’s known.

Ellie: Yes, once it’s known, it’s known. Once this finger turns around and sees the source, sees it for itself, that hypnosis drops. I mean, completely drops, completely. It’s not going to come back and say, “Oh, I am a person again.” It’s going to act as if, this body is now acting as if there is this Ellie, as if she is married, as if she has children. But is that true? Is that really true, ultimately? No. My son, I mentioned in the last interview, he knows the source, he talks to me from the source. Last year, we were sitting in the backyard, I was just talking to him, interacting from the source, you know, we were just dancing around. I asked him this one question, I said, “I am going to ask you this question, I want you to answer from the source. Am I really your mother?” And he smiled, first he smiled, and then he looked at my eyes, very, very straight forward. With that smile, he said, “No.” That is true, that is true, he is talking from the source. Of course, I am not your mother. Oh my goodness, of course, of course, this has to be so there, in your heart. You have to know that, you are not a mother, for sure.

Rick: Or he maybe could have said, “I am mother’s, I am son’s, I am daughter’s…”

Ellie: No, that is the mind’s thought. He talks to me from the source. From the source, you are not my mother.

Rick: Couldn’t the source say that though?

Ellie: No, the mind says that, because I don’t know who… At the presence, I don’t have any identity, zero identity. I don’t see myself as a thing. I am just space, everything arises from the space, comes out. So this is my identity. So that is what he is talking about, he is as this, as a vision.

Rick: Yeah, it’s like saying, “Is electricity a lamp? Is electricity a refrigerator? Is electricity a light bulb?” No, electricity is electricity, all those other things are just ways that electricity is channeled or expressed.

Ellie: Absolutely, yes.

Rick: Okay, are there any strong emotions, sadness, anger, after liberation? Very good question. Any emotion and feelings and everything can arise, because this body is conditioned. This body has a physiology, has a memory, and everything, it can come out. For example, these past few years, I lost a couple of very, very good friends, that I know. And when I heard the news, let me tell you how this body was functioning. The tears was coming down, pouring, pouring. But deep here, there was this absolute peace and joy, which these two energies, they combine together, it’s like a sweet and sour. And it was delicious. It was not an energy that takes me off of this, what I am. It just didn’t throw me off. It was right here, playing, dancing, this energy was dancing, really. So, yes, the sadness arises, anything can arise, and anger can arise, anything can arise, because this body’s condition is interacting. But as long as you know who you are, as an ultimate truth, you’re not going to identify with that. If you are this finger, you definitely identify with that emotion, that “Oh, I am this anger”. But when I know, this is what I am, and this is the play, it’s playing, so I don’t take this seriously now. Okay, the two friends are gone, but where are they? Where are they, really? Where are they? The body drops, but am I going to drop? You have to know that, you have to know that you don’t go anywhere, for sure. The body, of course, every moment, but are you going anywhere? So, yes, in the play, you can have anything, any emotion can arise, but in reality, you know what is going on in the big picture. You see the big picture now, not just me as a person.

Rick: Okay, good. How is life after liberation? How do I live the truth?

Ellie: Okay, the same way you lived as an ignorant, how did you pretend? You pretended all your life to be an ignorant, you ignored who you are, as an ultimate truth, you pretended to be a finger. That takes so much energy, wasn’t it? It was a struggle. After liberation, what is really living? The truth. The truth is living, and this is effortless, absolute effortless, and in every experience that you have interaction, the truth reveals itself more and more. More and more you recognize that this is what I am, this is what I am, of course, this is what I am. You are not going to identify anymore with the role, all of a sudden, “Oh, I am the mother, I have to worry about this child, and what happened to her or him…” That’s going to go, the fear is going to go, of course. You are not going to have, there is this future, what’s going to happen to me, kind of a thing. There is no this little me, that poor little me I have to take care of. You know that this is what you are, this is it. So, this body, any kind of activities is going to go for this body, whatever can happen.

Rick: Is it going to improve your life in certain ways, though? Let’s say you had a drinking problem, or you were an impatient person, or you were prone to anger, or you argued with people, and so on, is that stuff going to change, do you think?

Ellie: As far as the arguing, you see, let’s say again, if you see yourself as a character, definitely you argue, but if you see the big picture, where is the argument? You know that the essence…

Rick: Is the big picture perspective going to… I mean, does argumentativeness, or impatience, or addictions and all that, do those arise from being confined as merely an individual, and when the totality is realized, do those tendencies and behaviors naturally drop off?

Ellie: I don’t have those kind of… I never had those type of habits, like drinking and smoking, that’s why I cannot relate to that. Honestly, I cannot give you any answer for that. But in here, there is a transformation happening, transformed. If somebody says, “I know that I am awareness, this is that…” and then they think and behave the same exact way as before, where is the transformation?

Rick: Well, for instance, did your husband notice a change in your behavior?

Ellie: Absolutely, absolutely.

Rick: What did he say?

Ellie: Well, the way we used to interact was like people, characters, but when he is sitting next to me, his character melts down, complete. I mean, he falls into my lap, he never sits too close to me, he was always sitting on the other side of the room. Now he comes in here, and he puts his head on my lap. Never happened before, never happened before, ever, ever, that’s not his style. And then he melts, he melts. And then there is no relationship anymore, there is no two people, like that, it’s not going to be like that. It’s just this, this is living. Yes, of course, as two bodies, like this, two bodies, but I know what is going on behind that. So, I am not going to argue with him, if he is not interested in this path, I just have a compassion, love and compassion. And this is how he wants to be, he likes to listen to his music, and spirituality is not his thing, let’s be it. I am not going to convert him. That’s not my job.

Rick: But it sounds like your realization really enhanced your relationship though.

Ellie: Absolutely, Rick, there is no doubt in my mind, with the children, with other people, any interaction that I have, the truth is absolutely up and running. I see that, I see myself in the picture. You see, this is how you see yourself, like you are talking to a plumber, you see yourself like this, this is how you see it. So, you don’t see yourself as a person talking to a person, as totality is talking, like way above that. So, your interaction is just pure love, pure love, you are looking at his face, you interact and he sees your love, you bring water for him, you interact, that’s the interaction you have with people, absolutely. I go for a walk, I interact with people, I say hello, but the hello is not just superficial, it is just very, very deep. Look in the eyes, I see you as me, this is it, you are in me right now, you are walking in me. That’s how I see people right now. So, how can you not be transformed? As totality, everything is you.

Rick: That’s great. I think we have kind of covered this, but we will see if you have a few words to say. How do you feel about a murderer, or a child abuser, or in general, the destructive act of others, after liberation? You were saying earlier that from the totality’s perspective, this finger happens to be a murderer. Yes, and it is OK, and compassion, love and compassion arises, because this doesn’t know who he is, he doesn’t know who he is, he thinks that he is this finger, so he thinks that you are someone against him, he has a fight with you, and then he decides to murder, and that is the mental image that he is drawing to, so that is, that we answered already, this is going to be absolute compassion, absolute compassion, because the ignorance is in charge right now, he is ignorant, that’s what it is.

Rick: Yeah, OK, good. Here is a question, “I was listening to some spiritual teacher, and he was mentioning that there is nobody sitting on these chairs, there is no doer, so do I have a will, a free will, or not?”

Ellie: OK, well, whoever that teacher is, people go and listen to all these things in these lectures and stuff, that teacher is talking the truth, because as you see in the totality when you look, there is nobody here, really as individuals, because there is no characters in these fingers, all he sees is the totality. So, he is right, there is nobody as an individual self, like a separate self, sitting on those chairs, but their bodies are sitting on the chairs, definitely, like fingers are there, but in the big picture he sees the big picture, so he sees only the source, and not individuals, that’s what he is talking about. And there is no any doer, correct, because who is the doer, ultimately? Ultimately, the source is the doer, isn’t it? Even as a murderer, as a murderer, who is really ultimately did the murder? The source. But the source is in coma, the source doesn’t know who he is. So, therefore, that’s why Jesus says something beautiful, He says, “Hate the sin, not the sinner”, isn’t that so? “Hate the action”, the action is destructive, but who is really ultimately the sinner? It’s not even the sinner, the source is behind that, you see it for a fact, so you are not going to judge that, there is no judgment here. I hope that I answered that question. So, the source is doing this, so yes, you are not the doer, you as a character, he is talking about, you as a character are not the doer, but there is a doing happening in this totality, just like I am moving my fingers, see, the fingers are not doing by themselves, I am doing that, there is a source behind that. This is the analogy, just remember the analogy, the source is doing that.

Rick: The last part of that question, which I didn’t read, was “I am confused”, and I think the reason that people sometimes get confused is, teachers speak from their perspective, which is totality, or maybe in some cases it might just be an understanding of totality and not the actual living of it, but presuming it’s the living of it, they speak from that, and they describe a state of no sense of doership, no free will, and so on. But then people are listening and they feel like they do have a sense of doership, they do seem to have free will, and so they get confused because there is a disparity between the level that is being spoken and the level that is being experienced or lived, which is probably why it says in the Gita that the wise should not delude the ignorant by speaking of the non-involved nature of the self, they should just speak to the level of consciousness of the listener.

Ellie: Yes, exactly, because they know, that’s why Rumi says, “What I say, I come to your level, and I speak.” He doesn’t talk from up here, he comes down to your level, but he is talking, so you understand. I would never say that there is no doer, that doesn’t help you, that’s not going to awake you, believe me, it’s not going to help you. If you want to use that as a shortcut, “Oh, let’s see if there is no…” I get emails, “Oh, I know that there is no me here, I know there is no…” but, no, you don’t know it. You are trying to impose that upon yourself, and that’s how the mind does, that’s how this character does. Tries to act as if there is nobody there, and it tricks you, so you are going to get into this trap, and you are going to stay there, and you don’t know how to get yourself out of it. Unless you know the right way of doing that, and the right way was coming in. That is my suggestion, it might be so many different ways, but the thing that worked here was absolute silence. Go to the silence, just use the right method that they have been doing for many, many years, for thousands of years people are practicing that, not the shortcuts. Yes, once in a while, the shortcuts work. You sit down, if you are ready to hear something, yes, it triggers. But the majority of us, majority of human beings, need to go into that silence, because that silence is talking to you. It’s like a highway, you just put yourself in a highway and just go. Don’t go to these little side roads that people are taking you, and telling you, this is my experience, their experience is their experience. You may never have that experience. For example, last time I talked about Kundalini awakening here, but I am telling you everybody, you don’t have to have any of those experiences, in order to recognize who you are. Please listen, you don’t have to have that. Now that I see the big picture, those experiences are just for fun. It happens in some body minds, it doesn’t happen in some others. So, nothing has to happen, nothing esoteric has to happen in you. Nothing, no firework, nothing has to happen, in order for you to recognize what is true here, what never comes and goes, what is ultimate. And first of all recognize it, then fall in love with it. That’s the important thing, fall in love with who you are at the present, and then once that happens, living is so simple, you don’t have to think about how I am going to live this. This is one breath at a time, it comes out by itself, effortlessly.

Rick: Yeah, like breathing. Here is another question, someone says, “I was with a spiritual teacher and she helped me overcome my fear by feeling it thoroughly and directly. At the moment it seemed the feeling was gone, but after a few days the same level of fear came back again. How can you help me?”

Ellie: Right, that’s a very good question. Just like this, I am this character, with this mind, and sitting next to this guru, she is all present and everything. Yes, when you are sitting next to the guru and you say, “Oh, I feel so inadequate.” And she says, “Ok, look into that and I want you to feel it, feel this inadequacy.” So, this person starts doing that, this person now, the character, once you come into the presence, that ego character drops in the presence. So, it will feel absolutely that emotion, that emotion comes up and it dissolves in the presence of her own presence and that guru. So, in that moment, yes, it feels, “Oh, thank God, this was just nothing, oh thank you God, oh this is so good.” You feel so good, your heart palpitates, you give a hug and everything, fine. You walk away from that, two days later, the character is still there. The character didn’t go anywhere. Yes, you overcome that feeling of fear and everything that arose at the moment, but the character didn’t go anywhere. So, she taught you a technique, anytime you have this feeling of fear, just sit down and look, just directly experience that. Yes, you can do that for the rest of your life. If that’s the kind of thing you want, the technique, how I’m going to stop the mind, I take a breath, a few seconds, I’m going to stop, “Oh, thank God, this is so good, I feel so good.” So, that’s my technique. Yes, if that resonates with your heart, go ahead and do that, use all these techniques to overcome all these feelings, but this path is not about that. This path is not about technique, it’s about who you are. Once you find out who you are, this feeling of inadequacy, this not feeling good, and all these fears and future, this all drops, I promise you. Because these feelings belong to the character, who thinks that I am this separate little miserable me. Once that miserable me drops, you will notice that this is living, and this is not, this is the totality.

Rick: As we’ve been saying, the totality is lived by virtue of this instrument, you see. And sometimes the instruments are kind of rusty. In other words, some people have a lot of emotional baggage, a lot of repressed traumas, and so on and so forth. And so, maybe some of that load has to be lightened up.

Ellie: Yes, yes. Some spiritual teachers even advocate going and doing some therapy or something, just to kind of work out some of this baggage that is blocking the possibility of this instrument being the reflector of totality.

Ellie: Absolutely, I agree, 100%. If you have all these baggages and pain and suffering, and all these things built up in here, you cannot even close your eyes for two seconds, and you cannot even be for a few minutes.

Rick: It starts to bubble up.

Ellie: Exactly, bubble up. Definitely go for all those therapies, and I say to a lot of people that you really need to go for therapy before you even come to this path. I say that. And I notice that level of intense emotions and feelings, and a lot of mental activities. I see the paragraph, and paragraph, and paragraph, the writing. That shows there is a lot going on in this mind. This character has a lot of things involved. You need to just go and, yes, do all those therapies. But that is not the ultimate awakening.

Rick: So, your job is, you are kind of a finisher. Your job is to deal with that ultimate awakening, and not necessarily to deal with all these things, emotional…

Ellie: No, because I know the root of this inadequacy, is because you don’t know who you are.

Rick: Do you feel like you could go into a mental hospital, and possibly deal with somebody there, and somehow get them, or do you feel that it would be way premature for anyone like that, and they’ve really got to work through a bunch of stuff before even talking to you?

Ellie: I cannot answer that. I don’t know what comes out of me right now. I have to be in that situation. I cannot project something in the future, how I’m going to do this.

Rick: But in your experience, it really hasn’t been your specialty to deal with people who are deeply troubled. It’s more like people who have done their homework.

Ellie: Well, I’m not a psychiatrist, I’m not a psychologist. I don’t claim anything. I’m nothing. From this nothingness, I don’t know what comes out of it. All I know is that when I read an email, let’s say they send me an email, I read it. When this person, I see this struggling, has been there for a long time, so many years of going to India, coming back and see this guru and that guru, doing all this yoga, meditation. This individual, and I see desparate, you have to be desperate in this path. Not just, “I want to get this information, but I’m going to steal this pinky finger. Give me some information”. No, this path is not… That’s why I’m saying it needs courage. You need to be courageous, to jump into what you see as an ultimate truth and claim it. Most of the people, they see it, absolutely they see the truth. But they want to dance around, constantly, just like a tail chasing game. They don’t want to face it, because facing it is like death, is like a suicide. I just said that. That’s why Rumi said, “Bemireed, bemireed, darin aishq, bemireed, darin aishq chomur deed, hame rooh pasireed”. He says, “Die, die into this love”. Once you die into this love, once and for all, you will be resurrected. That’s what he is talking about.

Rick: Beautiful e;Because this is like death, death to the character, death to this belief, just this little tiny knot, there is this one knot in here. That has to be untied. But you know what the people do? They go outside and untie every little knot, except this. They know everything, they know everything about everything. Oh, the stock market is this, and the gold value is that, they know everything. Science and all scientific books, they know. But then, once you come to themselves, they don’t know that. Oh my goodness! Which is good, this is what you want, this is what I would play, fine, that’s how it is. But this path is not just being, “Oh, facing my feelings, this is my pain”. That is not how it is. Once you know who you are, these feelings are gone. You are not going to have fear, for heaven’s sake, never, ever. Fear of what? The ultimate fear was death. You already died. You already died. How many times you died? That’s why we say, “Jesus on the cross”. What does that mean? You die and then you resurrect. Death has to be there though. You cannot resurrect without dying. Dying is the part of it. This part is not easy for everyone. So, that is why I am saying, ultimately, the truth decides exactly what I am going to do in here.

Rick: When the time is ripe. Some teacher gave me the practice of just being a watcher. I tried it for about 2 weeks and it did not work, so I dropped it. Is this a good practice?

Ellie: I am sure you can answer that, Rick, by now. Watcher of what? Who is watching now? The ego, you see the character in this body, in the finger, is watching the other character as true. This is duality already, to begin with. So, if I practice to be a watcher, I am reinforcing what? Duality. Because there is a character watching now, watching everything as separate. Everything is separate from me. This is how it looks. See? I am separate. But the watcher, the real observer that we are talking about, is not watching from here, not from the finger, is watching from the totality. So, your true watching is rising above this. So, that is why that watching is not working. That watching because the character is watching, as a person. So, if you reinforce that, it is not going to work. As you see, I get that all the time, I practice this to be just observer. That observer that you are, is the ego observing, is the character observing, not totality observing.

Rick: Yeah, it is an attempt by the ego to mimic something that sounds like … they have a conceptual understanding of this state.

Ellie: You cannot fake this.

Rick: Right, right. And there is a state in which there is this witnessing state, which some people naturally live for a while, where there seems to be a natural detachment from everything, and I am that, and everything is detached from me. But even that is not something you do, it is just something which may be that way for a while.

Ellie: It opens up, the inner eye opens up, inner eye is symbolic, there is no “I” in it.

Rick: It is not a practice.

Ellie: No, no, no, it is not a practice. This part is not a practice. This part was not a practice for me. Practice for me was just curving down, going inside, and I just want to know what is going on with me. Because I have so many things going on. That is the practice part. And recognition of the truth, there was a recognition that there is something here as existence. That happened, but beyond that, the rest of it, this sense of duality, I don’t know how this dropped. The duality vision drops, all of a sudden, and you see this Oneness, and that is what I am.

Rick: And Oneness is not a practice either, it is not like you are walking around, “I am Oneness, I am Oneness”. It is just…

Ellie: You cannot fake, this is the only thing you cannot fake it. And when people are talking, you can tell, you can tell, is this being talking from here, or is talking from the experience. Absolutely the energy shows. People can definitely see it. This is not something that you can fake, because you are that, you already claim that as your identity. So you are that, you are it. So you are talking from it. So again, for example, if somebody, and I am not passing any judgment right now here, “Oh you are this, and even my close family, my daughter says something, is that phasing me? She defines me as this and that.” No, I know who I am. I am not the role, I know that for sure. I am this, so no matter who says what, I get nice emails, sometimes whatever the comments, either way, it doesn’t matter, because I know who I am. So as this, I don’t even know who this is. This cannot be described, this is a mystery. So I am just living the mystery that it is, but I cannot describe it. This always stays as unknown, I am always unknown.

Rick: And you know, this thing about not describing it, that’s not so mysterious either. I mean, try describing the color red, what can you say about it? It’s like everybody knows what red is, unless they are color blind, but how can you describe it? It’s something that can’t be put into words.

Ellie: Exactly, or you can say, if someone is blind, right now sitting, always blind, sitting here, and you try to describe the color red to that blind person.

Rick: Who has never seen it. And even if they are not blind, there are certain things, you know, this is sort of purple, how do we describe purple? Well, it’s a little bit like red, but what is red?

Ellie: Exactly, it’s indescribable, but yet…

Rick: Certain things just don’t fit into words.

Ellie: But yet, it’s more obvious thing, it is here. It’s the most obvious, permanent existence, forever, self-illuminating, self-loving, peaceful existence that there is. That’s all we can say about it, but you cannot describe this, this cannot be described ever. Please do not, because my mind was originally, when this discovery was happening, was just so into trying to describe this to other people, like my husband, how this thing is. Then this drops, this drops, I noticed, at the point I noticed that this cannot be described, but you can be it. And all those practices stops, you know, practice to be unconditional love. This character is practicing all that, I want to be unconditional love, I want to be helping other people, I don’t want to judge, these practices are all dropped, because you are automatically, you see yourself as the source. So, the source is not judgmental like that. I see the malfunctions, don’t get me wrong, if somebody is acting like a selfish being, I see that. But there is no blame in there, that’s that for sure, because I know where this person is coming from. This ignorance is doing it, ignorance is right here, right now. So, that is the vision, I just want to see, I want to see this analogy as helping people to see the big picture. And all these questions, if it comes from the source, you see how beautiful it comes, just from the source we are talking, not from here, so I remember, I have to be so compassionate, this and that, no. But in action, you act like a character when it comes into the action. When it comes to the action, all of a sudden the character, because the character is there, it functions as a character. But when your identity has shifted to this emptiness, to this existence that it is, everything arises from this. And two things, very powerful comes here, absolute love and intimacy, and secondly, compassion. Absolutely, absolutely, that’s how it is.

Rick: Good. OK. “My heart knows it is the truth, but due to the hardcore non-dual teachings, I always get confused on whether a practice leads to realization. If I don’t exist, will these practices reinforce the “I” or melt it?” One more sentence here in this question, “The last four years I have stopped searching and meditating, now I feel I am at peace, but I know I have not realized the truth, and would love to.”

Ellie: That’s what it is, we answered that pretty much, right?

Rick: We did earlier.

Ellie: Yes, the character starts as a “Who am I?” And then it curves down, of course, but then that practice is not a practice of, how can I say, naturally this happens. For me, this naturally, I curved inside, I went inside, and this happens as a very natural thing, it’s not a doing thing.

Rick: It happened naturally, but it didn’t reinforce the sense of “I” either.

Ellie: No, no.

Rick: Some teachers say that, you shouldn’t do any sort of practice, because it’s going to reinforce the sense of “I” or a practicer, to which I respond, “Well, then you shouldn’t eat, because it’s going to reinforce the sense of an eater.”

Ellie: Exactly, exactly. No, I don’t think that reinforces, honestly, that’s the answer.

Rick: Maybe some practices do, but what you were doing doesn’t. If it’s natural, if it’s spontaneous, if it’s effortless, it shouldn’t reinforce, I think.

Ellie: Absolutely, absolutely.

Rick: Good, another question, “I have read so many books, attended many satsangs, have done so many different yogas and meditation practices for many years, however I am still not free. How can I start over?”

Ellie: All the time I get that. Well, this is very simple, I just want to give you, not a prescription again, the first and foremost, when we are on this path, there are so many nonsense questions going on in your head, like, “What is my purpose? What is going on? What is this whole life is all about?” Those questions are good and dandy, but there is one solid gold question, that needs to be in the core of your being. The moment you identify with this finger, that question is, “Who am I?” Believe me, that is your core question. Don’t go around, you know, nonsense questions, try to get answers for those. That’s my first and foremost thing to tell you. When you close your eyes as a being, just be, and have this core question always in your heart, “Who am I, really? Who am I?” Not that I want to be enlightened, I want to be enlightened, I want to know, that’s not like that, it’s just “Who am I?” This question has to be very authentic, coming from the depth of your being. And when you go to the silence, that is the question behind this whole scene, always. And once you go into that silence, as I mentioned, by and by, the silence is not a silence, the silence is pointing towards who you are, really. That silence is talking to you, without any esoteric experience, it is talking to you. So, you recognize the truth when you go within. And when you recognize that, the ego, that character, when it sees that, if it is ready enough, if this character is ready, is desperate enough, it has been in this path enough, will recognize that as an ultimate truth. And not only recognizes that, but it is going to merge into that. It jumps into that. And when I say jump, that is symbolic, again, that there is no character, that idea of you again, it would say “Yes to this”. And that’s the end of that. So, shortcuts, if you want to get shortcuts, this is not a spiritual pill somebody can give you, and you swallow and you get enlightened, it doesn’t work like that. Do not waste your time. I get people, they keep going to this teacher, to that teacher, to that teacher, who is doing that? This character is doing that. Oh, this teacher doesn’t resonate with me, let me go to the other one. Who is doing that? This is the character, wants to dance around and taste every single teacher. They are all saying the same thing, aren’t they?

Rick: Basically

Ellie: but you know, yes, there are some teachers who resonate with you, if it resonates, you stay there. Not to jump from this person to another. Because that confuses you again, that puts you into another way of thinking, because the mind likes that. Don’t you see? The mind likes that kind of a trick. Oh, this person, I heard all about this one, let’s go to the other one. That is not the way to be, that’s not going to help you.

Rick: In India, they say, they have this analogy, it’s better to dig one well that’s 100 feet deep, than 10 wells that are 10 feet deep.

Ellie: Excellent, excellent, that’s it. So, be honest. And then, the last jump, as I said, is important. So, what I do, usually with coaching, we go down to the deep down, and people can see the truth for themselves, and they claim it. But from that point on, the ego part of it, by and by, sometimes, through every experience, that ego would drop, that character would drop into the truth, as truth. Sometimes that’s going to happen. You’re not going to go discouraged. I see people awakened, fully awakened, I see them, they’re seeing the truth, they’re talking to me. But then, a week later, he comes back, I talk to him on the phone, “Oh, my mother was this, and my brother was that”, and then he goes back to the story and the character. The character wants to go back again, to me and my story. That happens a lot. So, that character has to be so ready, so mature, as I said, mature, once it’s recognized, attention automatically comes back home, doesn’t go back to the world anymore. That’s very important, that is the maturity. That is a mature character, who had enough. And once he sees that diamond, he says “yes” to that.

Rick: Well, that’s kind of what we were talking about in some of those earlier questions, is can you realize the truth and then lose it again? So, like you’re saying, you can see it and then get caught up back in the story.

Ellie: No, once you see the awareness, the existence in here, there is still duality.

Rick: So, you can glimpse it from afar, then you can lose the glimpse, but when you become that, then you can never not become that.

Ellie: Once your vision shifted, once you’re out of this picture, you are totally, you are not this finger, you are this totality, once the vision changes, there is no way you lose yourself. Absolutely no way. You’re not going to lose yourself, you’re not going to practice to be yourself, there is no search anymore, you’re not going to have to read anymore about yourself, you’re done. You live yourself, you dance yourself, you smile yourself, that’s what’s going to happen.

Rick: So, this next question kind of relates to what you were just saying, “How do I know that the truth of my nature is the ultimate truth?” It seems like people can have a glimpse and they think, “Oh, this is truth, but is it the ultimate truth?”

Ellie: Yes, but because that comes to the maturity of the ego again. If the character is not mature enough, although it sees that, although it sees that as the truth, but it’s not going to accept that, it says, “OK, I don’t think so, so what? I’m going to go back and search more.” See, that ego character has to be mature enough, once it sees the truth, it would recognize. That’s why this coaching, my coaching, when I offered this coaching, so that I go step by step, coaching people, so that they see the truth, and once they are there, I’m going to be there with them, so that they can see that as an ultimate. I’m not going to let their ego run away. We stay there together, I want them to have the conviction, “Yes, that’s me, yes, that’s what I am, that is what I am, that is what I am.” They repeat that, so that there is a conviction in there. But if you just do it on your own, the way this happened here to me, it was a long path, because nobody was helping me, I didn’t have any help. That’s why I’m offering this free help, coaching, this is not a teaching, I’m not putting more information to your head, to have more information, you don’t have enough information, some of the people had a lot of information here, which I rather you didn’t have any of that. If you have all this, you can’t see this, you can’t see this at all, you hardly can feel it.

Rick: Can’t see the forest for the trees, they say

Ellie: Yes, there is too much junk in here. So, that’s the coaching, and it’s just like somebody is trying to give birth, and there is a midwife sitting right next to this person, and helping, coaching, but the real giving birth is yours. I cannot give birth for you. That’s how it is, coaching, it’s not teaching. You are already that, what can I teach you? That’s why I don’t have classes. What can I teach? You see this finger, if you know you are the totality, you see everybody else as totality, already. But then how can I teach you to be totality? You are already it. So, to me teaching is just wasting time for me, for here. I don’t think that’s needed. I cannot help just giving more information to your head, adding to my experiences, talk about my experience, that doesn’t help you. What I want, I don’t want to waste your time, and I don’t want to waste my time. My time is very precious. So, I spend this time for you, if you are ready for this, totally and seriously, ultimately, you know that this is it, you are going to die for this truth. You are ready to die for that. That’s that. Now, says, everyone who comes to this world has a role of demolition. That’s what your role is, demolition of the character. But it’s not that you are trying to do that, or attacking that, no, that’s not what he is talking about. He is talking about every being is doing that unconsciously. Unconsciously they are doing that. They construct and they disrupt. This world is teaching you, something good happened, bad happened, good happened, you lose some, gain some. Every peak and valley is teaching you who you are. It’s giving you the message, every experience each of these fingers are going to have, which are so different, it’s going to bring them back to the source. It’s calling them back. But some of them, they are ready to come back and jump, while they are in this body. That’s the beauty of it. Heaven on earth, that’s what they are talking about. Heaven is here. Heaven is not something that you die and go to heaven. That’s not how I see it anymore. That world and this world, both of them merge to this, to this. That’s what you are. And that is the ultimate, that’s the ultimate truth.

Rick: Ok, we are almost at the end of our questions. You hear a lot of people these days saying, “Oh, I awakened, I had an awakening, and so and so is awakened, and so on and so forth. So here is a question that relates to that. I have been awakened, however the mind, old me, is still there. How can I be one with the truth? And I just would add to that, it seems to me that there are many stages of awakening, and many flavors of it, but all these stages and flavors of awakening are not necessarily liberation, but are often mistaken as liberation.

Ellie: Absolutely. Liberation means, “I see oneness”. I see me as my One, just me as this, this is me, and everything is within me. And everything happens in me, not to me anymore. See, as a finger, everything is happening to me, but as totality, everything happening in me. That’s the vision. The ultimate freedom is when you feel your true essence, and you know it for sure, that is what you are. Seeing it, and declaring it. Loving it, and living it. That’s the ultimate thing that comes out of me right now. So, that’s what it is. I just want to say something beautiful, it just came to me. Rumi says that, they ask him, “What is your path?” He says, “Rāh-e mā rāh-e eshq va marg ast; agar mītavānī bemīrī, biyā; vagarna, boro.” He answers, “Our path is the path of love and death. If you can die, come. Otherwise, go.”

Rick: Nice.

Ellie: Simple as that. That’s as simple as that.

Rick: So the last three questions could actually be lumped into one question. They are questions about what your teaching is, and you are referring to a retreat here, like you offer some sort of ultimate truth retreat, and there is a question about whether there is a fee for that. So, do you teach a retreat in residence? Like, do people come to Long Island and come to a retreat? Or are you just talking over Skype? Explain all that.

Ellie: Yes, sure. The retreats can be so many ways. I have people from all over the world, they call me, from Dubai, from UK. If they are far away, and I see them ready, we do this through a Skype. So, that’s Skype interaction, and phone calls, and everything, and emails and stuff. But if they are local, definitely I invite them to be local, come in here, and yes, absolutely, I interact with them individually.

Rick: Do they just come to your house, or do you sometimes set up a little thing at a retreat center, and everybody comes there, and so on?

Ellie: It’s very intimate, it’s one-to-one in my home. And we do walking meditation, we come sit down together, interact, and that’s what’s going to happen. And that’s what it is. And the interaction over Skype, I have done it many, many times with people, and they know me very well. So, I have very good friends right now. But as I mentioned, first of all, there is no fee here. Because right now, as this totality, I don’t need anything. I don’t need your money, or you give me something. There is no character here, who wants to show you the way, like somebody is lost, they lost their way. I would just stand there, “OK, in order for me to show which way to go, you have to give me this much money, so I can show you the direction.” That’s how it doesn’t resonate with me anymore. So, I am helping myself. There is only One, this is only Oneness. So, me as being, is in two different bodies, and so therefore, I am helping that other body to come up to this level. So, that is my service towards the humanity, and it’s for free. But what I am asking to the people, because the ego, because the character, when it sees the free thing, it thinks that there is no value into that. Especially when you see the ultimate truth, you think there is no value for that. So, what I am asking people to do is just, before I start this walking meditation with you, and we go through all this process, I am going to ask you to give any donation that you want, to your favorite charity, including Buddha at the gas pump, including this, because this is the way you would get to know who I am, and interacting with me. Rick is kind enough to accommodate this for you, and so therefore, I would highly recommend, if you can possibly, just make any donation to this site, that you found me, and any kind of charities that you like, the highest is the better, because the highest you pay, the more value you see this is. That’s what it is, that’s how it is. So, that is the way I deal with it. And that’s absolutely, I spend every time that you need, one step at a time we go, and I am there for you, to the very last step, to the ultimate, until you see that. I see people right now, I am interacting with people from Dubai right now, all over the United States, a lot of people, Canada, UK, a lot of people in UK. So, yes, absolutely. Okay, thank you, Ellie. As far as Buddha at the gas pump is concerned, there is a couple of donate buttons on the upper right hand side of the website, the website being www.batgap.com, and one of them is for a one-time donation, the other is for a subscription thing, where it sends a certain amount every month, automatically from your PayPal account. And if a person tries to do that and gets stuck, you know, I’ve had a couple of people say they couldn’t figure out PayPal and they’ve ended up sending a check. So, they could email me and I could give them my address if they want to do that. And all the, any money that’s collected as donation has been used so far for like, you know, equipment and hosting fees, and I attended the Science and Non-Duality Conference out in California last fall, I’m going to go again this fall, and I went on a retreat with Sharon Landreth down in Missouri a few weeks ago. So, it’s used for something, stuff that’s directly related to this.

Ellie: Very good, yeah. So then, Rick, there is one last thing I want to say, just came to me again from Rumi, I want to end this.

Rick: I like these Rumi quotes.

Ellie: Oh my God, it’s beautiful to hear you speaking the Farsi. He says, “Hasel-e-omram se sokhan bishnist, kham budam, pokhteshodam sokhtam.” He says, “My whole life is about only three things. I was unripened, I was ripened, then I burned out.” He’s talking about again, the character. Start from unripened, then I will be ripened, then I will die. That’s the end of that. So what I’m saying to everyone, my final word, find who you are, as an ultimate truth. Love it, you fall in love with it, because that’s the only thing that is always here, is ultimate, and is always eternal. You fall in love with the eternal. Once you do that, living it is just going to be such joy, because every breath is a celebration of you, as an ultimate truth. Using this body to experience this absolute beauty.

Rick: That’s great, thank you, beautiful.

Ellie: Thank you.

Rick: It’s very enjoyable. Alright, let’s make a couple of quick concluding remarks. You’ve been listening to an interview with Elliei Roozdar. Eli happens to live on Long Island, which is outside New York City, but she communicates with people all over the world, with email and Skype. If you’d like to get in touch with Eli, go to www.batgap.com and from there you’ll see a link to her website. There’s a contact form, or contact information on the website. Also at www.batgap.com you will see all the other interviews I’ve done, about 120 of them so far. They’re all archived there. You can subscribe to a little email notification thing, so that every time I post a new interview you’ll get an email about once a week. Also if you’re just listening to this on YouTube, you can subscribe to the YouTube channel, and YouTube will notify you when I post a new interview. Also you’ll see on BatGap a link to an iTunes podcast, so that you can listen to these in audio on your iPod if you wish. Okay, so those are the practical points. Thanks again Ellie.

Ellie: Thank you, thank you Rick. Peace be with you.

Rick: Peace be with you, and thanks to those who’ve been listening or watching, and we will see you next week.