120. Katie Davis

Katie DavisKatie Davis is a spiritual teacher and author who offers satsang worldwide. She is a graduate of the University of Washington, a former secondary school educator, a former owner of aerobics studios in the Pacific Northwest and mother of two.

She is author of Awake Joy: The Essence of Enlightenment and since 1999, she has been traveling to share with people the radical possibility of Self-realization that is the end of all suffering, separation and the key to world transformation.

Katie Davis was a Keynote Presenter at the Vancouver BC Convention Centre in Canada. She offers spiritual talks at church services or spiritual gatherings, corporations, hospitals, professional communities and organizations, schools, television and radio shows, as well as for community organizers worldwide that are offering talks in the form of satsang in public meetings, intensives and silent retreats.

In 1986, Katie Davis radically and spontaneously awakened to the ultimate reality of who we really are without practices or teachers. She had never meditated or even heard of enlightenment, Advaita Vedanta, Non-duality or Self-realization. Katie had no intellectual reference whatsoever for what had occurred.

In 1988, Katie met her future husband, Sundance Burke, author of Free Spirit: A Guide to Enlightened Being, who had similarly awakened in 1982 with Satoshi (Osho) and Shunyata, named the Rare Born Mystic by his friend, Ramana Maharshi, one of the most cherished sages of modern day India.

Katie Davis is a world spiritual teacher and a current resident of Seattle, Washington, USA.

Katie’s website: katiedavis.org

Katie’s book, Awake Joy: The Essence of Enlightenment

Interview recorded 4/29/2012

Video and audio below. Audio also available as aΒ Podcast.

158 thoughts on “120. Katie Davis

  1. Didn’t wait for the video. A wonderful resonance. I could feel the stillness from Katie, and appreciated the utter simplicity of her pointing. What an unburdening is all I can say . Thank you Rick and Katie.

  2. Ha, ha, very good Snow. Have done the scenic route, going for the Ramana express.

  3. What does “Katie Davis was a Keynote Presenter at the Vancouver BC Convention Centre in Canada.” mean? She gave a presentation in a building?

  4. The picture (younger?) does not seem to match the voice (older?). In going to her site, I found the following videos.
    which seems more recent (and matching the voice).
    Beautiful eyes and beautiful smile. So in praise of older women (which we don’t do enough of) …

    But I’ll wait for the video …

  5. I did listen to it … and I think .. I will withhold for now… until the video… I dont want to tamper with the experience others will have. Cant wait til the video is up and to hear all your comments.
    <3 (that dosent looks like a heart r… it looks odd… so I'll just put in some "love" πŸ™‚ )

  6. I don’t know….
    it might be different when one watches the video…

    There is definitely a beautiful deep silence where Katie is speaking from, but she doesn’t seem to have come back fully into the body again in a grounded way, where the absolute and relative are one.

    I might be totally wrong on that one…

  7. Yes, at the beginning I thought Katie sounded almost depressed – but it picked up for me after “the story” of her awakening was out of the way. Maybe just the sound of being very detached.

  8. Then again, there are just different “personality” types – some quieter and more reserved – others lively and full of laughter – others straight-talking, no nonsense etc. etc. etc.

  9. Forgive me Ising – but I felt as though I was listening to an episode of Ghost Whisperer…have to agree with leelaji here..I felt that perhaps some 5 hour energy tabs might be in order..or maybe more aerobics..

    When we are describing coming to the end of the path as Katie inferred was her experience, when the witness has dissolved into the Absolute – paradoxically, I have found we are more integrated – more down to earth – more real – more authentic..more natural…..I didn’t hear any of that…

    I heard all the right words of non-dual speak – but the sound didn’t match up..In the witness state sometimes we can feel and appear a bit detached, but when embodied, we are most definitely, HERE..

    True Silence is not pausing between words -or talking reaaaaal slow – but is found through and around the words and transmitted at whatever the spoken pace..

    Although some good points were made, I didn’t feel what I was hearing was natural or effortless, and despite Rick’s usual abundance of warmth and connectedness, the interview had an eerie disconnected, disembodied, feeling to it..

    All I know, is that with every true sage I’ve ever met pretense is lacking….no ‘trying’ to be spiritual..or calling themselves ‘world teachers’..It was all too pat and perfectly presented and packaged..

    To each his own – and maybe it will play better on the video – be more in sync expression wise and more natural hopefully..but right now the voice is more haunting than enlightening..

  10. Jill:
    I too found an “aloof” quality in that her speech was sounding a bit fabricated in its timing, and she seemed to resent some of Rick’s straightforward questioning at times, responding with a rather distant tone.
    I at first thought it had “an attitude” of spiritual arrogance, but I gave it some time and it just sounded not 100% connected. Contrasted with the down to earth Adyashanti interview, this one seemed stiff regardless of the warmth her delivery of speech pattern delivered.

  11. Yeah Greese – quite right -very perceptive – not arrogance there with Katie – just not quite connected…We can get stuck in all sorts of places even in the latter stages…The body must be included in this..
    It’s not just Adya’s map we’re following but speaking from experience – having been out there in la la land – a natural integration does take place if we don’t get attached to some ‘state’…I always look for that sense of Reality – the honest lullaby so to speak – no matter what words are being spoken..
    .I remember 30 years ago talking to Maharishi on the phone when he was feeding me siddhis to give to the group…Even though I’d heard his voice a thousand times on tapes, I almost fainted hearing it spoken directly to me…It resounded through every fiber in the body because of its inherent Truth…never forgot it…
    Enlightenment to me means, What is Real..and the resonance in the voice is a telling factor..

  12. Yeah Sno – The integration process is interesting….When the energy ignites in some spontaneously, as happened in Katie’s case and in Byron Katie’s and in my own, there can be fragments of consciousness that don’t get included in the realization..You can see Truth clearly in some respects after that kind of awakening and yet there are blind spots..as well as disassociation..

    The blind spots can be emotional or physical or conceptual vestiges of consciousness that need to be brought into alignment…can’t do this oneself..

    I had the help of Ramana – through Pamela – again an act of Grace – to help integrate and recognize those pieces that had not been included in the original awakening…..

    There is also the process of time in terms of integration…. If we run out to teach and try to make a living off this, before the process of embodiment has fully taken place, due to some leftover spiritual ambition, we can get stuck somewhere..So patience is key, as is the support of someone who has been there..

  13. @Jill

    I am curious to know whether the enlightened people like you can recognize who has realized the truth and who has not.
    Are the comments about Katie’s embodiment of awakening etc.; are these mere speculations based on her way of speaking, her tone etc.?

    How do you know who has realized the truth and who has not?

  14. Hi Sam –
    I want to be clear – I never said Katie hadn’t recognized the Truth – she was surely speaking it with clarity – but embodiment is a different thing….

    The realization takes time to integrate in all of us…and some don’t come all the way back…Doesn’t mean one can’t be transmitting the Silence..as she was doing quite nicely..

    … and yes ‘it does take One to know One’ as Wayne Liquorman always says jokingly..secret handshake and all that…giggle…He means that there is only one Self and if you are That, you know when others are speaking from there…We all get the same download..just expressed through different nervous systems, but same Truth..You hear if it’s off..

    I would say in general, that the closer the voice and the manner is to ‘naturalness’, the more integrated one is…This is based on years of observation of self and others…I still remember what it was like when I was up in the ether after the energy rose in ’96…..I sounded like Osho on steroids….

    So I was only speaking of embodiment in my comments here, the integration of Self -not commenting on Katie’s realization of Truth..That’s Self-evident..

    If someone is fully integrated, an outsider would not even suspect they have been on a spiritual journey as they would be as down to earth and ordinary as your neighbor in terms of demeanor….

    Allowing for different personality types, there is still something not embodied in this interviewee..

  15. “Without a subject there are no objects and all is pure consciousness.” ~KD


    Also the bit about the witness disappearing. Refreshing.

    I liked the end when the questions just ended and silence stood forth. Very sweet. Silence answers every question.

  16. HS –
    You have your own intuitions and wisdom..and I’m sure I don’t have to tell you that it just makes sense that a teacher can only take us as far as they’ve gone, so it’s best to choose one who has gone all the way Home or at least come out of the ether…

    I have noticed that very often we turn out like our teachers quite mysteriously, so good to choose wisely..

    I always chose natural and down to earth cause I found that to be closer to Reality..Hey maybe it’s just a NYC thing – giggle..but that’s this body’s energy preference…

    BTW, can you give me instructions on how to do the emoticon thing so I can stop hearing myself say giggle?..thank you..

  17. Thank you so much Steve…I’m going to try it right now..I can’t make out the third face though – is that a guy on drugs or just someone who’s been on batgap too long.. πŸ™‚

  18. I did it – yay – and yes give me the frown symbol too please..there’s a few people I might have to use it with..

  19. Yes Erick – that’s part of the journey – The person merges into the witness, the witness into awareness, awareness into Pure Being…and all throughout, identity is not lost, only it’s limitations are lost as Nisargadatta says…It is transfigured and becomes the real Self, the sadguru, the eternal friend and guide..

    The entire spiritual journey is in the direction of greater and greater Reality..to becoming the Real…

    Only in the witness state is there a sense of separation…and disconnect…In the final embodied state, resting in the Absolute reality, as the Absolute Reality, we are everything – the Totality -so nothing is apart from us…We can’t KNOW the Absolute – we can just BE it……

  20. Dropped it a while back. Not even going to look – don’t want to risk being pulled back in.

  21. Yes Sno – everything is the Self of course (where did I hear that before) but we can and do discriminate a bit in the relative…There are deeper aspects to Being..and hopefully we all get to explore them…
    Glad you found true resonance with a teacher…hope you follow up on it…It’s everything on the spiritual path..the difference between awakening and not awakening…
    When the satguru manifests in human form for us, we are pulled toward the flame…good luck..

    BTW, is there an emoticon for sighing?? I do that a lot lately..

  22. @ Jill with Love : what tells the flower when to bloom, the seed when to sprout, the sun when to shine, the moon when to wax or wane.

    Don’t be discouraged – Your love & hope for all of us – shines brightly. We love you too.

  23. Ha ha, hilarious – Red army – heaven’s door. Ego at the door of the Self?.

  24. When the fruit is ripe – it will fall in the presence of a teacher or at the sound of a bird song. Ising.

  25. Yes, now that’s something I can relate to on both levels. At last! πŸ˜‰

  26. Lovely Night to you Steve & Snow, – Bonne nuit – a demain. (until tomorrow).

  27. Jill – Thanks for the words of wisdom. It’s an interesting process. I found Katie’s expression more definite than many descriptions I’ve heard.

    “The person merges into the witness, the witness into awareness, awareness into Pure Being…” -Jill

    β€œWithout a subject there are no objects and all is pure consciousness.” ~KD

    As I said, It’s an interesting process. The inner truth is ‘discovered’ and for a while it is so different from the former identity that it cannot be experienced alongside the changing world – so it is in its own space, as it were…that would be the witnessing period.

    Then, through continued experience and surrender the individual aspect falls ever more deeply into the cosmic, and the cosmic as if moves out into the relative. Like a sponge, the changing experience absorbs the non-changing until the gap between them becomes almost infinitessimal.- – – Gosh, that reminds me of some talks MMY gave back in the ’70’s when I was a student at MIU about “the gap”. I guess I get it now. πŸ˜‰

    And MMY also talked about the gap getting so small before Unity dawns that it is as if you are caught up in experience again. Interesting.

    So the witness dissolves into experience, the gap dissolves…then all-that-is dissolves into pure being, I guess. Beautiful.

    I suppose a harmonic transmission, or ‘mahavakya’ would be in order at that juncture. Exquisite. Thanks for the coaching. Now back into my cave.

  28. Yeah, Sno…well put. Descriptions need to be kept clearly separate from prescriptions. And in this situation Jill pretty much nails it with her twofold, ‘go into silence’ and ‘hang out with the awakened.’

    Regarding descriptions, MMY said that all the vedas and vedic literature and the descriptions of experiences along the way are not to be confused with practices. They are there so that when you have the experience you have some reference, some validation…then move on. So my memory of the ‘gap’ conversations becomes useful over thirty years later.

    That MataKali was great with Richard – if only you could capture that silent loving gaze in a book. I got so much out of that humorous half hour video just through resonance. And the end of Rick’s interview when the questions settled into silence. I loved that. So if a book full of words brings you closer to silence through resonance, then that is good. If the words fill you with maps and thoughts and no love, then put the book down.

    Thanks for your thoughts.

  29. Sweet Ising –
    That was lovely – thank you for your love – which I felt deeply..
    Of course I was just kidding about the sighing..I have no expectation for any of you, so can’t be disappointed..
    This is all just happening…and happening as it needs to in or out of time – and yet nothing happens…’I do what seems to be necessary’ as Nisargadatta said, ‘but at the same time I know that nothing is necessary; that life itself is only a make believe’..only as real as we are..

    Snow – Grace does what it does and it is never the same..never shows up in a consistent way or how we think it should….It’s good to keep that in mind…
    Pamela once told me, and it has proven to be true, that if an enlightened being appears the same in all circumstance, there is still a self there…
    An awakened being can only respond in the moment..otherwise they are speaking from memory..or a manual..
    The emotions are quite variable as well..Sometimes there’s intensity, sometimes playfulness…sometimes sadness..sometimes joy..the whole gamut arises…and yes sometimes there’s discrimination..and sometimes not..but always the system is flexible though..as the situation calls for..without any idea of, or investment in, what the outcome of any of it will be..

    Erick – beautifully said – I loved what Katie had to say too..no argument with the words….pure non dual Truth…It reminded me of the early days of satsang when everyone was teaching from the mountaintop..Some teachers have made the return trip though..
    All I was saying yesterday, was that on the return trip, energetically speaking, there is more of a feeling and a projection of being HERE…of human connection and relatibility and ease of expression…
    I think of Pamela and Eli and Gangaji and Neelam and Mooji and Adya and Francis in that way..all very natural and integrated if you hang out with them or when they’re teaching…the same down to earth naturalness…..
    How we hear and relate to Truth depends on where we are listening from…from our state of consciousness – and each expression of Truth is valid from whatever point it is being spoken from….from the mountain or back in the body..some just prefer hearing it spoken from embodiment.
    I would only add to that, that there are elements of disassociation in all spiritual enclaves and sometimes the teachers themselves aren’t even aware of it..
    I was kidding Rick recently, that this being an election year, that I advocate for not only a chicken in every pot, but a resident therapist in every spiritual community.. πŸ™‚

  30. On topic… I know I said I would wait for the video… but wasnt feeling it… didnt feel it. Pretty words … but zero feel.

  31. thank u so much for making the video available quicker on facebook.
    you’re the best.
    : )

  32. I think its one thing to comprehend with mind… and quite another to experience it in Being.
    I just didn’t feel that.

  33. Beautiful Dalai Lama poem Snow.
    I listened to the interview… and
    Thanks for the link to facebook…
    but I’ll pass… I didn’t feel it.

  34. It’s wonderful that everyone is so honest in their expressions on this site..Thank you all for that self-honesty..It’s what’s brought you to the spiritual table..No one has to agree with anyone; love doesn’t need agreement..

    Some innocent one asked me the other day -Jill, you love everyone, right? I said of course I do; I just don’t like everyone…he he…She looked at me horrified as if my status as an awakened being in her eyes was greatly diminished..I’m sure she’ll move on to the next flavor of the week who matches her expectations…..

    What’s true, is that here are always preferences that linger after enlightenment- karmic resonance and all that – but Love surely remains..

    Gangagji once said, that after a lifetime of left wing politics, she discovered (to her horror) after waking up, that she loved George Bush..shocked her silly..She didn’t like his persona at all, and wouldn’t vote for his policies, but the Love was undeniable…the love of Self in All..

    Kim – you remind me quite beautifully, of that refrain from an old Van Morrison song..
    “If my heart could do my thinking,
    and my head begin to feel,
    I would look upon the world anew,
    and know what’s truly real”..

  35. Many awakened ones had more than one teacher, until the ripeness and the ” right” one. Grace the only true teacher in town, both the ripeness and ripened.

  36. Yes very true Snow – but with a final teacher it’s not so much a soul mate but rather the SELF within that starts to manifest in form..not so with previous teachers..who I think of as preparatory..

    I had a karmic resonance with Maharishi and with Watts, but I recognized Pamela as my own SELF made manifest…it’s not quite the same as you are coming to see since viewing Katie…

    The primary teacher whether within or without, is almost never the final teacher…the one who shows up so that you can recognize who you really are..
    .For the rare few, it’s not necessary for it to show itself in form, but for most of us in this leela it is..

    Resonance is of utmost important of course, but it’s also our own ripeness – our ability to recognize them when they show up..there has to be a certain degree of the Maya that has fallen away..

    .I was invited to India by a friend to satsang with Papaji in 1990..had the tickets – didn’t go..kept on practicing – was only mildly curious at the time..

    Not till 2000 did that lineage show up on my doorstep in the form of Pamela and I was drawn like a moth to a flame….It was my words speaking through her – our hearts beating as one heart..endless fascination with her form..

    We’re ready when we’re ready…Grace is always working on us – it was, through all my years of seeking and practicing – but the final meeting with our manifest Self is of a different order…Somehow, from there, the door to the Infinite is opened, and the Mystery unfolds…..

  37. I like that β€œIf my heart could do my thinking,
    and my head begin to feel..” That was a beautiful line Jill.

    Since my shift, I recognize a mis-alighnment in some people I know(for lack of a better word) . I feel the persons’ intention(s) clearly… but thier mouth talks about some different ‘mind-fabricated’ belief.

    I would be listening, without wanting to get my word in, or without trying to work up my next sentence or judgement… just listening…. and then this feeling of sureness that the words were not it. In the begining I would say outloud… ‘just be honest and true” … ‘Tthe truth will set you free”…. and now I am not so foolish and I feel what I feel and let things be as they are. It is almost like judgement but its not coming from ‘mind’ because I still feel love towards the other, even if the words are not true. I know they have just entangled with the mind…. and in some cases I am begining to realize that they have convinced themselves…. like circled the bullseye. The bullseye being Being.

    Did that make any sense? πŸ™‚

  38. I also find that if I listen without getting caught in my mind (judgment, next sentence, my opinion) … if I listen sometimes… with attention and love… out.. tumbles out some beautiful truth from the other person.

    Sometimes stuff they say they would never tell anyone but feel comfortable saying. I know its because of no judgement mind is involved… but then….. uhhhhh………. thier is a tendancy for the other to cling and want to be with me more, and attribute what they are feeling as its ‘me’…. this I am not in favor of… how do you handle that??? I say it has nothing to do with me… this is all you… but….it dosent seem to take.

  39. What I hear you saying, Kim, is that the Self knows if something is off..not the mind knowing…but Being knows…The natural expression of being is felt not just through the mind or even the heart – but also on a vibratory level – and even if the words are true, the feeling level has to match up..or it strikes one who resides in their natural state, as odd..
    That being said, if someone finds their Truth with a certain form’s expression, then that’s all to the good…The important thing is that the heart is opened to the Mystery..somehow, some way through whatever means..and they move toward exploring its depths..It shows up however it shows up for each..

  40. Kim -For awhile, people see you as form – and they like what they see – and want to hang out…so why not….It’s only the wise who know that everything comes through you, but is not of you…As long as you know that, and don’t get caught up in their projection, where’s the problem?

  41. Steve – you’re a riot – I think they could use you on the seriously humorless spiritual circuit…maybe satsang standup is in your future?…

  42. Blessed are you Steve!!!! πŸ˜€
    I think maybe I am the one who could spend a few years on a mountain in solitude… for sure… like Thoreau did… that would work for me!!
    Maybe I shouldn’t listen so much… I look at people though,(and anyone for that matter) and just think..’Wow theyre so beautiful, that expression of conciousness in each person… or is it (Brahman)… like looking at a flower garden – people looking is like… beautiful stuff!
    So when I listen that is whats happening to me… but I dont feel any attachment or need from them. Who knows??

    I’ll cling to ya Steve – Big Fat Bear Hug!!!!! πŸ˜€

  43. Jill πŸ™
    I like to hang out but I like Being aloned, from time to time.
    Some friends feel abandoned when I take care of me… and I don’t have a desire to explain myself for the time I am taking. I just feel happy Being… not arranging or planning or listening. Just silently Being.
    So how to step back without the abandon feeling others project?

  44. opps… answered… ‘as long as ‘you’ know and don’t get caught up in thier projection… Wheres the problem?’
    Thank you Jill… it just sunk in.
    πŸ˜€ Lite bulb!!!

  45. Experience here shows there is definitely a vibrational field around separation. It can be felt and seen…

  46. Good point Ising… like a ‘separation field’… and it can be felt and seen!!!
    True… in all aspects of separation.

  47. I love being alone too Kim…loved it as a kid..and love it now..Family life intervened in mid life..and it was busy as hell, but even then I took a few hours out of the day for myself to meditate..

    Now as you say, there’s a gorgeous Silence to everything – and with the family gone, I see that nothing is needed to fill up the well..so just enjoying it all..whatever comes into view..

    Loving the Silence is the reason I don’t go on the circuit – just do my part with offering what I can offer here or there…

    The more quiet time we can spend especially after awakening, the deeper we go…the more the Self-revelation..it is our nature as spiritual beings to not be DOING all the time..

    When teachers I know are not teaching, they are quiet…just in the Silence – little desire for extraneous distractions..and life is lived simply..

    Even in my marriage – which was a pretty good one if I do say so – we were mostly quiet together…He was an artist and normally at rest and I was a meditator so we were on the same page..Neither of us intruded upon each other’s Silence..

    The only thing that draws me out these days is wanting to share this Love and whatever wisdom it has to offer, but we always want to take care of ourselves too – always a balance between sharing and nurturing the Self..or there will be nothing to give…

    Many satsang teachers became ill due to their 24/7 travel schedules that went on for years…forgetting that balance in all things is the key to living a healthy happy life..

    Your intuition will tell you when it’s time to share or time to meet with friends -and when it isn’t..We aren’t here to meet everyone’s expectations..Some friends will fall away – the true ones will stay and respect your boundaries…..

    One of the hardest things I had to learn as a mother was learning how to say no…I felt guilty if I wasn’t at their beck and call every minute…

    I’m just now learning that as a teacher…I don’t take anyone on anymore who I sense isn’t seriously wanting to awaken..and even then, I pace myself with how much time I can spend…..I used to take calls for years from people in Kundalini crisis at all hours…don’t do that anymore…I made it known that I’m only available during certain hours..

    All Love begins with Self Love…The more we have of it, the more we can give…

  48. Thanks Steve –
    I listened to some of Robert’s tapes years ago – Pamela brought a few to satsang back in the day and someone later sent me some audio of him that I still have on cassettes..He always makes me laugh..His tape on suffering is hysterical…..He would have been perfect for you..

    Apparently there’s some problem now with his estate – people claiming rights to his story and likeness etc…Amazing what will happen post the passing of a great one…

    I wish I could have known him personally…Pamela said he was unique…the first to carry Ramana’s vibe in the States..

    .When he woke up taking a math test at the Bronx HS of Science, his parents didn’t know what to do with him…It was a huge opening..if you can imagine it at 14…and he was talking about the Mystery at great length..

    Fortunately, the family was wise enough to not call in the doctors..they sent him to Yogananda who was the only guru passing through the States at that time, and Yogananda recognized that he was way beyond a ‘teaching’ or a devotional practice, so sent him on to Ramana in India….
    I wished I could have met Robert – really resonated – most down to earth guy around – completely natural…He just touched Pamela’s head during his last satsang in Sedona- and that was it for her..She continued on with Neelam, but that was the opening..

  49. All Love begins with Self Love…The more we have of it, the more we can give… – Jill

    Wow Jill that was soooo beautifully said. What a peaceful, knowing, and being silent. I felt your words clear as a bell. Thank you for sharing that. I have a condition to immediately save, help, assist, give… but now I feel that condition… sense it rise up in me… to act … and I let it be in the space of non-action, in the space of its urgency, and it calms.

    I have witnessed in my immediate impulse to help… I have only post-poned the lesson the other needed.

    Being present for that person, situation, feeling… that is all I can do and that is enough. That self love is reflected back to them… because of that oneness thing… it helps others too.

  50. Hey I saw a video of a man named Osho… would that be a ‘typical one?” He talks slow-like, heavy-like his words are heavy. Is he one?

  51. Beautiful Kim, just got back from the river where Self showed up and sat beside me on the bench, as a Monarch Butterfly. How exquisite One is – everywhere, everything.

  52. Beautifully said Kim..The Oneness does everything – it’s the alchemist – not us..Of course we want to help – but the person cannot really help – so just stay in IT..and watch things transform..

    I love Osho- He talked reeeeel slow for sure..a very powerful dude -mesmerizing eyes – He said he never came down from the mountain, was really ‘out there’ -but his Silence affected a lot of people I’m sure….
    The old gurus like Muktananda and Maharishi and Osho and the like, were very powerful beings – great shakti…They had their time and influence in the world…They prepared many of us for the awakening that is taking place now on a mass level……

    Many of their disciples who spent 20 or 30 or 40 years with these great beings are now waking up with the final teachers..different roles in this leela..

    As I’ve said before, the preparer teacher is almost never the final teacher…The transmission of shakti is not the transmission of Silent Mind..

    Snack time – and exercise time- love to you all

  53. I think you’re right Steve – The comment page has gotten pretty narrow with just a few of us posting -so perhaps we should all step back and allow others their say..As much as I love you all, I’ll gladly take some time off from the comp..and my rear end will thank me..

  54. Hey I saw a beautiful Red chested Robin this morning and stopped and walked with him awhile… and then a beautiful smiling girl in a robin red dress.
    I’m dancing too πŸ˜€

    and then off to get sustanance. xoxo

  55. What has cracked open here recently (thank God) is the seriousness, and it is falling away rapidly. After a lifetime of seriousness, I can’t describe how liberating and enjoyable this is…so forgive me if anyone has been offended by my sense of playfulness. . A time for all seasons, I guess.

  56. White tailed deer fawns. So jealous Snow. We have a cabin on an island in the St Lawrence River right in the middle of the rapids, and on another Island that we face, there are plenty of deer, tho I’ve yet to see one of them.

    Saw one on the ice two years ago – and plenty in Hyde Park in England, when I lived there. Will try to get up at dawn this summer and see if I can spot one when they come to drink from the river.

  57. HS, if you are taking part – enjoy. Good for you – let us know how it goes.

  58. Don’t know how clear the skies are there in Kingston – absolutely stunning full moon shining in Montreal. .

  59. A man ask the sage … ‘hummm shall I pursue enlightenment or millions”….
    the sage replies “Pursue millions because at least there will be someone to enjoy it.”
    HA HA HA!!! Do you get it??? Soooooo FUNNY!!!! πŸ˜€
    God I love this stuff!!!

  60. Not tonight Snow – she was at an indoor Birthday Party πŸ™ Will take her out tomorrow night tho for sure.

    @Kim – love your sense of humour Kimmy. .

  61. Not yet … its still sunny here. I’m in Vancouver just off Robson… seems like its noon. I cant wait to see it though. πŸ˜€
    On time… I was with my true love, driving to my place and it was a big full moon. He said he had a gift for me. All I could see is a black box-like thing in his big hand.
    I thought ‘oh my God hes going to propose to me!!!. and what?!!! In the car!!?” My heart pounded and I pulled over and turned off the car
    The next thing…. he smiles, a smile ‘full of love’, (I held my breath) and he hands me a “Vancouver Canucks vs The Sharks” commemorative Hockey Puck.
    Everytime I think of that day and look at the moon I have a good chuckle inside. Such a story!!

  62. Ha, ha, love that story Kim. So Canadian. Did you eventually tie the knot or move on?

  63. Ha, Ha, moon madness – love every minute of it.

    Forgive us Rick – we know not what we do.

  64. Oh geez 13 years and alot of turmoil… but he has been the greatest teacher to me, he was brutally honest… I got crushed alot but i always knew that he would take me to a profound place… turns out he left me and thats when I experienced the shift!!

    I was down and crushed and was having other things on my plate and I felt completely done… everything I thought wasnt true… I believed my head… once I accepted reality, that I didnt have control … I surrendered and then BOOM! BLISS Pure Bliss!!! It happened on a run in Stanley Park… I saw myself in everyone and everything .. and it was surreal. About 20 minutes of it… and no mind involved at all.

    He is not on the same page but my shift and acceptance of him has helped him, too. He senses something changed. I dont get entangled in drama with him. His childhood was much more tramatic than mine… that was a common thread for us… and I have always held a place of compassion in my heart for him… even if he decided to leave I told him I wanted him to be happy and that I would always love him. No drama.

    When I let him go and let things be as they are… hes come back … and is more expressive… maybe because he senses I’m not attached as I was, I think if he stays or goes its as it should be… I dont have a preferance. I’m just happy for the beauty that arrives in my life… ever changing. Funny how things go.

    It baffeld me for a bit… the non-attachment thing… it was really unusual for the kim I use to be. I use to cling to him.. always in fear… now I’m free and surprisingly more loving but a higher love… not a romantic love but a higher one. I cant explain it too well. πŸ™‚

  65. Oh shoot.. ego again… I quess. I didnt tie the knot with him but still love him… and learned that even if anyone loves me.
    Its all the love coming out of me!! that makes me feel so Fantastabulous!!!!
    I love to love. Don’t even care if it comes back.. where before I did care.

  66. Yeah blame it on the moon Ising… I am usually such a quiet one here.. what happened?!?!
    Je je je ha ha ha πŸ˜€

  67. Ising.. I dont watch hockey… but still have that puck. Gives me a lot of pleasure that puck.. goes to show… you never know whats gonna happen in life…
    Infinite Possibilities every day!

  68. Gautam Buddha became enlightened on the day of the full moon. Gautam Buddha’s whole life is connected with the full moon: he was born on a full moon night, he became enlightened on the full moon night, he died on the full moon night. This cannot be just coincidence.
    Found this on line…makes ya go hummmm.

  69. I enjoyed his expression of it as well … and the thimble analogy… thanks for sharing that Snow πŸ™‚

  70. Morning Kim: Loved your letting go story. Hold too tightly to anything and it will surely be lost. Can see the space that it has given to your partner and the freedom you are now enjoying without expectations. Wonderful.

    No wonder I love full moons. (Born under one as well) – thanks for sharing.

  71. Kim,

    The full moon is associated with the guru in India. The full moon in July is the day that the guru is celebrated. The full moon reflects the light of the sun most brilliantly. I’m sure others here could fill in the symbolic significance more fully.

  72. πŸ™‚ ah, so that’s why I have no truth of my own to speak of. Now I get it. Off to enjoy the wonderful sunshine and baby geese. Have a beautiful day.

  73. Welcome to “Batgapia” Spaceman. Thank you for that lovely Kerouac poem. Haven’t heard one in decades – used to have a book of his poetry but not sure where it ended up. πŸ˜‰

  74. Hey, thanks ising. I’ve enjoyed your posts and many of the others as well. It’s from an album called “Kerouac-Kicks Joy Darkness” where various actors and musicians read his poetry. “Moon” is my favorite. I find the music moving and perhaps sort of melancholy.

  75. thanks for that erickouac! hadn’t heard that byrds song in the longest time. πŸ™‚

    norah jones…sigh…

  76. Hi Jill

    One Question. Don’t know the appropriate place to put.

    If there is no self basically, where did it come from? I mean who got the thought of ‘I’?
    And if by some practice or say by grace, it is recognized that there is no such thing as ‘I’ ; then all of us should be awakened at the same time when the first recognition takes place in any body. I mean if Ramana or say Osho wakes up then whole world should drop it’s false identity at the same time? shouldn’t it? Why does the awakening remains limited to that body of Ramana or Osho only?

    Another question is: If the identification happens with body; and then one day it falls away, then there is still the possibility that i will again forget my true nature and start identifying with body! Isn’t it frustrating? Why do I forget my real nature in first place???

  77. Thanks Snow Leopard. Enjoyed the ‘moon song’ indeed.

    Thanks to Rick for another absorbing interview and to Katie for taking the time to share.

    Also Rick, on your recommendation I purchased ‘Collision with the Infinite’ as mentioned in a few of your interviews. It truly is a beautiful story and one that resonated with me. So thank you!

  78. HI Sam –
    Hey – that was more than one question…giggle..although the answers all add up to the same thing..

    Basically there is no answer to the Mystery that is unfolding..It just is..’Why’ questions are not answerable..I could be flip and say who wants to know but I’ll be nice this morning..

    No one really knows why the ‘I’ thought manifested…we can speculate and say because the false ego needs to develop in time and space in order for there to be something to surrender… but it’s really just part of the play of Leela..the game of life..The One wants to know Itself and creates the game..

    When each ‘apparent’ aspect of the wholeness awakens to Itself, in a sense, we are all experiencing that awakening, but in time, we are experiencing it as separate happenings..To one in duality it appears as if it is unfolding step by step, aspect by aspect, but in Truth, it’s occurring simultaneously.

    Once the Truth is seen and embodied, there can be no re-identification with the ‘I’ though…I’m not just talking about a glimpse of Reality and then a remembering of that glimpse, but in a true awakening, the ego/mind is seen through and thus starts the process of dissolution..more and more conditioning falls away until we are resting deeply in the Self….We are pulled inward, into the Vortex of Beingness, and at the point there is no chance of bringing back the illusion..

    My friend, all your questions are beautiful, but in many ways they are an avoidance of Self – an avoidance of letting go and just surrendering to the Mystery…That’s what the mind’s job is – to keep us wondering and speculating – so it can remain the master of it’s fate…The more power we give to the imaginings, the more questions it will spin..and none will satisfy..

    At some point, we grow weary of it all – and stay stop – we remain still – then Grace pulls us in..It’s a willingness to just be simple… not having to know.

    .As Nisargadatta said, ‘the death of the mind is the birth of wisdom’…We let go into the unknown and then all relevant questions are answered from within..
    Love to you..

  79. Well at least one small mystery has been solved here…the mystery of Katie’s odd speech pattern….couldn’t make sense of it, since it was so different than all the other awakened ones I know, and so like most things, I let it go back into the ether- just chalked it up to her particular flavor..

    here’s what an old TM friend told me..

    ‘As the story goes, when Maharishi started the movement back in the day, Gurdijeff people would come to him and they spoke haltingly, pausing after every few words…Finally, in exasperation, Maharishi asked them why they didn’t speak fluently…They said, they were taught to remember the Self repeatedly throughout the day..that was their practice…Maharishi told them that the Self isn’t realized by trying to remember it, nor forgotten by not doing so…It’s lived ‘naturally’ or it isn’t’…

    ever grateful to my old Guru for always confirming what the Self already knows..

  80. VIzzyweb – Amazing!! You are about the only person I’ve ever known who found Collision with the Infinite a ‘beautiful story’…It was the most frightening awakening story I’ve ever read…and wouldn’t recommend it to anyone..I know of at least 3 people who read it and decided to never meditate or even contemplate going on the spiritual path…Suzanne’s was a very askewed awakening..shocking…and terribly sad…I don’t even know why Rick has it on the list..The only comfort for me in reading it, was that as bad as my siddhi awakening was, it wasn’t quite as bad as hers, and the long term outcome at least, was a whole lot better…

  81. Actually, some us New Yorkers do speak slowly, and as I get older, I prolly speak even more slowly, but always, naturally…spontaneously…That’s what MMY was referring to…the un-naturalness of the pattern…The Self is always natural…

  82. I wasnt perplexed by speech but by the defensiveness in the interview with KD.
    I did not ‘feel’ the peace I have felt with other teachers. And found now after reading about the speech part now … sounds like parroting… so maybe ‘tha’t is another reason I didn’t feel it, buy it. The words are nice, and can be learned… but no one can give you that which is Beyond the learning. I didn’t feel that with KD. Lacked many things, in my humble opinion.

  83. Jill…
    Beautiful what you said to Sam …
    Hi Sam… I like your questions too.
    Any belief you have about yourself is a mental concept. No thought you have about yourself is Realization. This Realization thing, is not a belief.
    (For me this knowing seems to come from the heart, not the mind. For other maybe different)
    Its not a thought but a direct realization within yourself… within the gap between the two thoughts… its a knowing that you can’t put into words.
    What you percieve, experience, have, think or feel is ultimately not who you are. They are ever changing. You are the space for all those things… where all those things appear. Its formless, timeless (meaning time dosent exsist, not endless time) and is invisible.

    When you come to a point that you don’t know who you are. You realize you dont ‘kinow’ (mind) who you are you are closer to the truth… when you don’t know….

    (phew, I hope that made sense πŸ™‚ to you )

  84. I do see that what you pointed to Snow..
    that is why I put ‘in my humble opinion.’

  85. I also see my conditioning arise… the old ‘if you have nothing nice to say’… so therefore I should hold back.

    And many times I do. But here I am speaking what ‘appears’ to be true for me… in an invited form (Batgap).
    Labels of good or bad dont move me so ….. because they are one….crest and trougth or the wave. I don’t see that as negative because it is also part of the whole…. I don’t deny that negatives arise in mind as well as positive… its a movement of dualities.

    So my humble opinion was not a personal attack to put down. It was uniquely individual expression that we all were given. Not the denial of the dualities of mind…. but the acceptance.
    And again in my humble opinion too many people try to please others by not expressing what is true for them.
    That uniquely individual truth is what makes each being, each flower, each dead leave, beautiful. πŸ™‚
    Because that is what is.

  86. Well said Kim –
    We are here to discern and speak the truth of ourSelves…not here to please others..We’ve all done enough of that…If we don’t hear Truth, we should say so..in a way that is not unkind..It doesn’t help anyone to try to be spiritually correct…Sometimes the greatest kindness is telling it like it is, straight from the heart..

    Sno –
    You have your own eyes and ears – but we’re just offering a View based on deeply knowing the Self..

    Resonance is important of course..but resonance with what? I maintain that the Self wasn’t speaking through Katie..the words sounded ‘correct’ but they were stilted and studied..and the emotions were nonexistent…Wholeness doesn’t act or react that way..

    Please do me a favor and don’t hold up interviewers as paragons of Realization..our beloved Rick not withstanding.. Most wouldn’t know the Self if they tripped over it..Many are quite confused with so much energy coming at them..and they wouldn’t be doing what they’re doing if they weren’t still seeking..

    I will say a few last words on this here – since you mentioned earlier that many people speak deliberately…That’s true..but deliberation is ALWAYS of the mind – there’s nothing to deliberate about if one is the Self..We don’t have to carefully choose our words like we were reading from a manual..Again, I stress open and natural….

    I wish you could hang out with some awakened ones so you’d see the difference…Teachers speak spontaneously – without the mind’s intervention…no forethought…and more importantly there is much LIFE in the system post Realization…We don’t look like we’ve been stun- gunned, cause we’re not trying to remember ourSelves as Maharishi said…

    The expression of all satsang teachers I know is fluid and fluent..because the clarity comes from the Self and not the mind..so the words just spill out..effortlessly..

    I’m puzzled by why Katie and Sundance even call themselves satsang teachers..when they are speaking from somewhere else..perhaps from a technique that they learned from Gurdijeff….

    I’m afraid this is going to happen more and more, as more and more people have an opening and quickly become familiar with the ‘language’ of being..declaring their realizations from that standpoint followed by the website and the book on Enlightenment….This is why I stress having a teacher – cause if we go off track – there’s no one to point it out..

    If you visit a nunnery or a monastery of any kind- people speak slowly and softly, and there is a sense of peace..or at least the absence of agitation- but it’s not the peace of the Self for the most part..It’s just some sort of passivity born of squelching the emotions and the sensations..There are all sorts of transmissions and sometimes we can confuse them…

    The only thing these days that rankles my bones – is when I hear people masquerading as the Self..hard to bear…but to each his own..

  87. Steve –
    I was completely congruent with Kim..Katie’s words were true and clearly advaita- but they were studied and learned – not spontaneous – found in any non-dual text..’Parroting’ is a good word for it..So the Truth was being spoken but not from a genuinely embodied realization..

    And also let’s not confuse the awakened state with the enlightened state…We can still be off the mark sometimes when we speak from awakening – cause the mind is still operative..It’s been lived here for 16 years..

    I just told Rick that I can no longer be on these pages if he continues to invite people on who he plainly knows are not ‘on it’ shall we say, but just for fun or controversy – or because variety is the spice of life or we’re trying to up the site’s visibility…cause I think it is confusing more people than it is helping…

    If one loves Truth, one can’t bear to see it twisted -or deluded.. or worse yet – used for ones own gain..I’ve given him all the teachers I know who are truly realized and whose realization can help awaken others – (and there aren’t as many as we think) Some of them have come on, but if you throw in the simulated versions, the opportunists or the just plain crazies – it’s hard for those in duality to discern..and confusion reigns…It gets tiring trying to separate the wheat from the chaff..

    I’m afraid that the Spring lineup on batgap- except for a couple of repeats like Kiloby and of course dear Nirmala, is pretty slim pickins..for me the bottom of the heap…I wouldn’t be able to not give a strong opinion on them…and Rick would have to censor me cause he hates controversy..

    and so I must retire…good luck and love to all out there..If you stay sincere and true in your hearts, you will find a true teacher to take you all the way Home..

  88. I felt what I felt, it was what it was. Feel no need to dissect, rationalize, explain, justify, call it higher or lower than anything else.

    My, the things that happen when a gal’s at work. πŸ™‚

  89. Thank you Snow, that is soooo beautiful – really speaks to the journey. Have cut & pasted it – so I can keep it. Sure you don’t mind.

  90. Just to end on a good honest note cause we’ve all spent sweet time together…so this is straight from the heart of Truth….

    HS – I’m thrilled that you want to spend time with a true teacher..a jnani -not many can make the distinction..speaks to your sincerity -and you are right – there aren’t many around -They usually aren’t selling books on the corner..
    I can tell you have already spent time with a few from your words..You’re one that will get far as the fire of truth burns brightly..and you have youth and passion on your side…
    Hope the Neelam satsang tele-conference was enlightening for you on Sunday…rare to be able to spend time with a true jnani..If you stay with her, I promise that lineage won’t disappoint..

    Steve – pleasure knowing you – you gave me so many good laughs..and always brought things back to basics – to the Self..when things got too ‘heady’..I do hope though, that you seize the opportunity to meet Ramana in form someday before the body dissolves..He wants that for you..His transmission of Silent Mind is here quite powerfully now..readily available..through his teachers..
    Contrary to popular belief..we don’t have all the time in the relative world to get it done…and the tendency as we get older is to just sit and wait, and do what we’ve always done – thinking progress is occurring and awakening is just around the corner -but I would encourage you to be more proactive..
    as I would encourage all those who are practicing day after day and waiting for Grace to call…Meeting Ramana in books and tapes is just not the same as meeting him in person…much more direct..

    Ising and Kim – much love to you both in your new found innocent openings..may they unfold in a blessed way..and I know from your words you will stay true to Truth..just continue to follow your hearts..The opening as you know is a gift from Grace and after that there is the process of allowing whatever is not of the Self to fall away…no resistance is key…and if you should be attracted to a teacher..go for it..Everyone needs support at some point – as the path can get as narrow as the razor’s edge..

    Sam – sorry I didn’t get to know you better – but want to just say, stop imagining and take that wonderfully inquisitive mind of yours, focus it, choose a teacher and a teaching and stay with it..till all your questions dissolve into the heart..

    Erick – you are already in the tigers mouth and don’t need anything more from me..unfolding beautifully…love your writing of late..you have my e-mail if you ever want to check in…

    Ernest – Haven’t heard from you in awhile but from what I did hear – you too, are unfolding naturally – less head – more heart – more clarity – more focus on the Self and not as much outer directed…more surrendered to what is..

    Anatol – I love your caring for the world but do hope after so many years of meditating and devotional activity that you one day do yourself a favor and open to the final teaching..Bhakta quite naturally leads to Jnana..no conflict -so you can truly open to non-duality without resistance… Awakening must be our first priority – Then we can do so much more for the reflected world..

    Chuckee – Love your heart – and hope you keep speaking your Truth from the gut and coming more and more to rest in the Self…maybe we’ll meet in FF one day….never doubt yourself and what is coming forth..and remember you deserve true Rest..

    David – I hope you too find ultimate fulfillment not in those texts and scriptures of imaginary higher and higher states, but right here in your own heart of hearts..the cave where Brahman resides…It’s more than anyone could ask for, if we just surrender all the mental conditioning into unknowingness…..

    Sno – I’m so glad you’re not in suffering at this moment -.and I’ve enjoyed your poetic musings…you are a good good man – but just one word of caution…and please take this in the spirit in which it is offered..
    Until we’ve actually died to ourselves, the suffering mind can always return when we come up against difficult challenges…We want the Absolute to be stable throughout.and that takes an act of Grace..
    Someday we’ll have to face the body’s demise as well as that of loved ones and other losses – so good to discern if we’re truly out of suffering and resting in the Self..
    Thinking we’re there before we’re there – which sometimes takes hold of a body/mind, is a blind spot – and in my View, is the greatest block to Self Realization that there is…It’s impenetrable..The mind deceives itself into thinking it’s got it, but it’s only a deeply ingrained mental idea..
    They say that anyone can be brought to Jesus so to speak, except the ones who already think they’ve met him..For that reason, a true teacher can be invaluable, to serve as a Reality Check..to clear up any false notions..

    and finally Rick –
    I think Heat Seeker asked a good question of you earlier – one to seriously ponder.. about what your intention is in bringing forth this site. I thought it was to bring forth Truth, so I spent a lot of time this past year trying to help bring the best people to be interviewed to help meet that goal, but now I think the original intention has gone far afield..
    So I ask again, are you interested in bringing forth representatives of Truth, or are you just interested in having amiable chats with whatever flavor of the week shows up, in the hope that the site will take off and you can quit your day job?
    In addition, we never want to become complacent in our personal spiritual search either….44 years is a long time to hang in there without resolution..and just interviewing awake ones certainly isn’t going to do that for you..Either we give our life’s attention to this or we don’t..Truth takes some time and focus and passion to pursue..
    In closing, I will remind you (and everyone out there especially the lifers – the TMers who have been going round and round for 30 and 40 and 50 years) – what our beloved Guru Dev said to us ….It made a big impression on me anyway 37 years ago…increased the resolve…
    He said..’Getting a human life and body is precious and if we don’t realize ourselves in this lifetime when we have the chance, we will have sold ourselves for the price of spinach.’

    Love and blessings to all..over and out..

  91. Sorry Snow – posted at the same time.

    And people had a problem with KD’s voice?????

  92. Oh Chuckee, how fabulous is that. Am ready for deep sleep now. Don’t even need a moon shining.

  93. Snow – hilarious – I’d just about drifted off after Chuckee and you woke me right up again. No pun intended.

    Funny enough – when I posted the comment about your poem – I wandered off to the corner store singing “The long and winding road” and came back to find you had posted it. Definitely some interesting synchronicity going on here.

  94. Jill…
    I ditto that… after your words to me about time, a few days ago.
    So God Speed to all… and the kindest regards for all the beauty and love, learned and shared.


  95. Wow, although I’d heard the song before never really “heard the lyrics” until now.. Never did acid – but imagine what that song would do to someone tripping?

    Anyways, off to bed. Sleep well all.

  96. Kim if that means you’re leaving too – Enjoy Yourself – that’s all there is. Blessings to You.

  97. Blessings to you as well Ising… I will think of you everytime I have cake with ising. xoxo πŸ˜€

    Happiness and gratitude, from my heart to all.
    And to all a good nite. πŸ™‚

  98. Hi Jill
    I happened upon your advice column when I checked what people had to say about the interview.

    Your basic advice to me is good but is sadly shadowed by denial. Not everyone is on your path. As I have said repeatedly, this awakening has been in stages. As it is grace, that has nothing to do with my or your expectations of it. In fact, awakening never has anything to do with expectations. You know that. Even your grace did not come from reading Ramana. As I’ve said elsewhere, I quote scripture only to demonstrate this is not just my own experience.

    If you refuse to recognize and thus discount someones journey, you are not pointing the way.

    The books that have noted Ramana’s talks record a clear seeing. But they speak to the place I’ve been, not to where I am now. I don’t mean better, just different. Thus, I work with other teachers who have had a similar journey to my own.

    Your advice cannot serve if it does not recognize the one who is unfolding. Not everyone is served by Ramana nor should Rick’s interviews serve that agenda. As his site says, it is interviews with Ordinary awake people to help others see the possibility. Then they can find truth for themselves. As long as you think you or anyone else can “bring forth Truth”, you don’t understand truth. Myself, I’m happy for this diversity of expressions. I’m learning something from it. Keep it up, Rick!

    I appreciate your compassion Jill but there is something more to let go of for that advice to come purely from the heart of the Self. And yes, I can use more of that myself too. It is unfolding.

  99. Thanks Jill. You have been an inspiration for me. In having recognized the Self, I thought this was enough work for a lifetime and have stopped seeking. But you’ve shown me that there are much greater depths of surrender and Love. And you’ve shown me that reaching for Finality is not necessarily an unreachable goal.

  100. “And you’ve shown me that reaching for Finality is not necessarily an unreachable goal”. Poor English. “Finality is not necessarily an unreachable goal”. (So much for spontaneity …)

  101. Rick has stated the purpose of his site. “Buddha at the Gas Pump: Interviews with ‘Ordinary’ spiritually awakened people.” They are not all going to be super stars, same place on the road, or even exactly the same road.

    The new reality in this interconnected world is pluralism. We need to learn to deal with this. The wisdom of multiple traditions at one’s finger tips (or click away). A synergistic blending of modern knowledge with ancient tradition as in Ken Wilbur’s Integral Theory will be part of the mix (even though it’s probably too “mental” for most people on this site). Even different criteria for “truth”. (There will be some who will never accept a thorough subjective transformation as the final criteria, no matter how obvious and convincing it seems to be.)

    In the new cacophony, there is a need for discernment. If someone feels in their heart of hearts that something is amiss, something needs clarification, they should their speak their truth, even fiercely, *for the sake of others*. It at least can be a consideration. Other people can then sense whether it resonates from deep within.

    For those desiring a more “purist” path, there is an off ramp to the individual teachers, their web sites, their videos, and their satsangs.

  102. Regarding the degrees of embodiment thing…How can we truly judge that in another. Adya says, “Nobody gets enlightened. Enlightenment gets enlightened.” In other words the local experience we call our self doesn’t awaken – it is the thing we all are that wakes up inside the person. The personality then re-forms constantly around that inner opening.

    Did any of you ever study black holes? The cool thing about them is that you can never see one. Light can’t get out. Not only that, but as the light falls in, those observing from outside will never see it enter the black hole and disappear. That has something to do with relativistic bending of space time around the singularity.

    Personalities are like the light falling into the black hole…they bend and warp and take on the shape of the singularity but never fully take its form. How could anything take the form of the Formless? Anyway, that’s how it looks from the outside. From within the knower is the singularity, there is no light or gravity, just endless falling into infinity.

    Ever notice how thoughts manifest? It’s sort of crazy…how we think things then they just play out in the events of our lives. We see this more clearly as we relax more into It. Thoughts are the bubbling up of the cosmic energy as the gravity of Eternity pulls the localized view into the Universal view. As such they are the expression of the Unknown becoming known.

    So since our experience is a projection of thought, our entire individual life expression is also just the Universal playing its lila through our projector lens. Like the movie projector, the figures on the screen do not gain their specific features by their inherent light, but by subtracting some of the light and colors out of the pure white light that shines within the projector.

    Likewise, all forms that we perceive in the world are subtractive expressions of the Brahman that is too great to be expressed in its wholeness. Yes, even Ramana and Nisgardatta, as precious as their expressions are, are, to our eyes, limitations of the Absolute. As such they are, no matter how clear they may be, not able to express wholeness in its entirety. They are just thought-forms as we are just thought-forms.

    The combination of our personal limiting factors and those of another expression will produce the chemistry of the relationship. Teacher-student relationships are no different. There is no question that resonance is a personal thing. And while it is good to be discriminating on the path to the unknown, we must remain open to the gifts that come from every crack and crevice of our experience. The bird whose song stimulated Adya’s awakening may not have been fully embodied – but it certainly worked the will of Grace.

    So I have a hard time with judging a teacher’s degree of embodiment…but I have no trouble sensing transmission when it is going on (for me). There are many stars in the sky – each one contributes to the glow of the universe, and the universe would be incomplete without even the tiniest of these.

    Let us go forth in peace, honoring above all the voice of truth in our own heart.

    And to Jill, I say thanks from the depths of my heart, for your light is not just that of Ramana, but a reflection of a generation of awakening. From Maharishi to Watts to Pamela to Neelam and all those other threads that have woven the cloth of your life…From the LSD hippie revolutionaries of the sixties to the corporate raiders of the eighties to the waves of the awakening in the new millennium, these are all in you making you who and what you are and that is so beautiful.

    Thank you for taking the time with us here. I can’t imagine spending that much time at the computer when the birds are singing in the park and the spring sun is warming the window breezes. Also, I can’t imagine wanting to spend so much time with us crazies. πŸ˜€

    I might as well quote Adya again here, “I wouldn’t wish this job (spiritual teacher) on anyone.”

    Now enjoy the peaceful flowers and try not to burn the chicken.

  103. Hi Heat Seeker
    There are some rare people who have one single very full awakening. Most people, in my experience, go through that process in a series of awakenings. And by that I don’t mean conceptual discoveries but actual changes in being where the old reality falls away and a new one takes it’s place. I’ve had several of those and have discussed them with teachers who fully support my understanding. I’ve helped others through those stages as well.

    It’s true, there are some who are not interested in understanding that process. Nothing wrong with that. Some don’t need it. There are teachers on BATGAP who say there is no stages but describe them in their own unfolding. Their principle seems to be avoidance of concepts that might be a barrier. Fine. But there are people who have published books describing the hell they went through because they didn’t understand what was unfolding. I’ve met some who’ve really struggled. Depends on the person and their clarity. Some need understanding.

    And yes, of course I bring my own take to my own experience but I listen to others, seeking a fuller understanding of the underlying process beneath the variations in their experience. This is partly to support others and partly as the process of return mirrors the process of creation, in reverse. Understanding creation means understanding who you are in a fuller way than you might imagine. (see comment on Maya below)

    A “path” is a variation in how one comes home. For people like me, understanding is key. It is much deeper than preference. There is a recent blogger who is talking about how sex played a key role in her awakening. For others it is through devotion, inquiry, meditation, etc. Same underlying process, different approach. It makes the journey different but the result about the same.

    When someone starts saying “highest truth” and “Truth”, thinking they know the one true truth, they’ve created a barrier to more. For me I might have agreed at one time that Ramana spoke of the highest understanding. I don’t anymore became I have experienced several layers deeper than he describes. So it’s not the “highest truth”. It’s a very good truth and one very worthy seeking. But to me it is not the highest.

    He is certainly much more embodied than I am. Don’t argue with that. The question is – why other teachings?

    There have been many sages over the years who have spoken of truth much like Ramana. Some of those same sages also spoke of other truths of other perspectives. Buddha himself spoke of both Ramana-style truth and higher ones. But unless you understand the difference, they all sound about the same. But I can tell you, the difference is night and day. Literally.

    For example, many sages speak about existence being absolute. Sat Chit Ananda. At one stage, that is truth. But at a further stage, existence is just another value of duality. Brahman is beyond existing or not existing. It is a profound difference to change from feeling you exist absolutely to recognizing yourself as neither existing nor not. That’s actually more absolute, if we could say such a thing. Some of the same sages speak of this also.

    And yes, the higher teachings are very simple and profound. But if I catch myself thinking it’s the highest, I know I’m mistaken now. Just read the 11th chapter of the Bhagavad Gita, for example. Arjuna is overwhelmed just to see the extent of the form of God. God’s perspective is the highest and even merged with God we do not have the capacity to comprehend as God comprehends. So what then is “highest truth?”

    OK – I’ll give you an example of something the Vedas talk about but Ramana does not. There are 4 Mahavakyas, phrases from the Upanishads that both define the unfolding and can serve to trigger the realization at the right time. I am That, Thou art That, and so forth. You’ve undoubtedly heard them before. I’ve seen them in action.

    Secondarily, there are also 4 becomings where we experience and then become (recognize ourselves as) a stage or perspective of creation.
    Aham Vishvam: I am the Universe
    Devo Hum: I am the Devata (laws of nature)
    Aham Shrivhir: I am the Cosmic Body
    Veda Hum: I am the Veda

    Some will say – oh thats just Maya. But thats another truth that is not the highest as I’ve mentioned before. These are profound realizations that bring great knowledge about your body, the universe, and so forth. They have been part of my path. Thus, it is my preference to have a teacher with whom I can discuss those truths with.

    Who you are determines how you experience the world and what is true for you.
    Perhaps this makes my point clearer.

  104. Erick
    Love the comment on black holes. For every black hole, there’s a “white hole” where the light comes out. You might enjoy Nassim Haramein. He has a pretty cool model of the unified field, suggesting everything has a singularity at it’s centre. Had a big experience of the universe at 9, then spent much of the rest of his life trying to describe it.

  105. “But even for them, I still find the judgements childish and rude.” – tynman99

    At the same token, tynman99, I have never met an awakened person who evidenced being affected by anyone’s judgement of him of her… be it a negative or positive one.

    Judgements tend to have an inconsequential affect on them. But they can be, occasionally, entertaining.

  106. I havta say I was finding the situation becoming more and more frustrating as well. While I appreciated much of what Jill had to say, her comments seemed to be turning into “sarlo’s guru rating service.” I understand her passion but the situation was becoming more and more divisive. She could always pull the trump card and say, “I’m the fully awakened and fully embodied one, and I know” and while it may not have been her intent, she was discounting Sno’s resonance with KD for example.
    I have had experiences with teachers where there was an instant knowing that they were awake, a dropping of mind occurred , changes in the visual field…) what chuckee probably means by “kinda like tripping”, but I feel where one gets into trouble is when one thinks that that sense is infallible for all teachers or whomever for that matter. I would never presume that some teacher wasn’t awake based on that not happening. But then again, I don’t claim to be fully awake or fully embodied either. Neelam once told me that there is no way to judge from the outside if someone is awake, and I know she gets all kinds of info about people’s nervous systems and such.
    As to people’s speech patterns, my sense has been the opposite, that when folk’s are speaking from presence they slow down, and when more from mind they speed up. But these kind of observations are grossly general and can’t be applied to an individual. Jac O’keefe is most likely awake in my view and she speaks very rapidly.
    Several years ago I sent my Mother (who’s now 87) a link to an Ekhart Tolle interview because even though she’s rather a pessimistic person, I’ve seen hints of openings before. Her response was “well, he’s kind of a slow talker… but I found it relaxing.) That was my last attempt at sharing this stuff with her. πŸ™‚
    Another teacher told me that “judgements are delusion.”
    I resonate with that. I think acceptance of what is happening is key. I watched Gangaji’s webcast last weekend and her question to work with was “what are we resisting?” ` Something to look at moment by moment in one’s day for instance. And yes, I suppose that someone could say I was resisting some of what Jill had to say, and I dunno, they might be right! πŸ™‚

  107. @Peter “I have never met an awakened person who evidenced being affected by anyone’s judgement of him of her… be it a negative or positive one.”

    I wonder about this one. I would think no less of a person because they are “moved” or even “hurt”.

    I do wonder about those who are “immune” and “invulnerable”. Talk about embodiment …

  108. Observing someone to be unaffected by someone else’s judgement… is simply an observation.

    Drawing a conclusion that they, therefore, must be “immune” or “invulnerable”… is creating a conclusion based on an observation.

    I feel more comfortable sharing the former than creating the latter.

  109. Also worth noting that the awake still have very full emotions – in fact more full in some ways, but they move through and complete rather than engaging a story, drama, and so forth – as you mention Snow.

    There are stories of guru’s being quite angry, for example. But as you say, quickly dissipates afterword.

    One shouldn’t think someone awake has no feelings and is immune to offense. They’re just unlikely to make it personal, more patient, and more compassionate.

  110. “One shouldn’t think someone awake has no feelings and is immune to offense. They’re just unlikely to make it personal, more patient, and more compassionate.” – David

    To someone awake, judgements are also often seen as aspects of the story (underlined) that the judgment issuer is creating about the subject of the judgement. Judgement issuing, therefore, may just be another manifestation of storytelling.

    “Have whatever story/judgement about me you wish”, someone awake may be heard to utter.

    “I just can’t promise you that I will subscribe to it, if that is your purpose for placing it on my plate.

    For I am not any and all stories that you are inclined to create about me.”

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