152. Anita Moorjani

Anita MoorjaniAnita was diagnosed with terminal cancer, and doctors told her family she was just hours away from death. It was at this point that she “crossed over” and then returned again into this world with a clearer understanding of her life and purpose on earth. This understanding subsequently led to a total recovery of her health.

Anita was born in Singapore of Indian parents, moved to Hong Kong at the age of two, and has lived in Hong Kong most of her life. Because of her background and British education, she is multilingual and, from the age of two, grew up speaking English, Cantonese and two Indian dialects simultaneously, and later learned French at school.

She had been working in the corporate field for many years before being diagnosed with cancer in April of 2002. Her fascinating and moving near-death experience in early 2006 has tremendously changed her perspective on life. Her work is now ingrained with the depths and insights she gained while in the other realm. She works on the premise that our inner world (consciousness) is our primary reality, and if our internal state is healthy and strong, then our external world will align itself and fall into place as a result.

She is the embodiment of the truth that we all have the inner power and wisdom to overcome even life’s most adverse situations, as she is the living proof of this possibility.

Interview recorded 12/8/2012

Transcript of this interview.

Video and audio below. Audio also available as a Podcast.

131 thoughts on “152. Anita Moorjani

  1. Happy New Year everybody! 🙂

    What is showing up lately in a very ethereal, misty, fleeting way is that cause and effect do not exist in reality. Smoking may occur, cancer may develop in the same body and the mind will quickly make one the cause of the other and yet nothing happens as a result of anything. Nothing happens because you were mistreated as a child or because you were abandoned by the one you loved. Life simply unfolds as it wants but the mind being unable to accept this creates statistics, creates cause and effect. It is very difficult to describe in words and in the end there is really nothing to do or say. There is only life unfolding. It doesn’t even feel as if it is doing so in a loving manner. It is simply unfolding whichever way it wants.

  2. Tuovino – Glad to see you’re back!

    Interesting question about why do things unfold as they do. I’m a bit sappy in that regard – believe it’s all out of Love. Just feels good to believe that because so many things which happened in this life which seemed cruel all turned out to be leading in one direction – Oneness.

    Now off to see Les Mis. – bringing plenty of kleenex…

    This interview looks to be a good one.

  3. Warms the heart Laurence. It always feels great to be where one is understood. Hope you enjoyed Les Miserables and didn’t get to use too many kleenexes!

    To all who might be interested, I am presently reading a wonderful book: “The Freedom of Being – at ease with what is” by Jan Frazier.

    Have a wonderful week!

  4. Dear Anita,

    Thank you from the bottom of my heart for sharing your beautiful story of awakening…I am going to send it to a dear friend who is suffering with cancer at the moment…Whether he stays or goes, your tale will be inspiring to him and may bring him some much needed peace..

    I’m continually amazed at the congruency between the true awakening experience and the near death experience…Whether one sees the Light during coma or dies to the ego here on earth, there is but one death…

    The coming to know oneSelf as Unconditional Love, the collapse of the time/space continuum, the expansion into infinity – the simultaneity of the multi-dimensional reams – all part and parcel of a profound awakening into Reality..
    ..
    I also admire your courage in speaking out on the industry that cancer has become…how little understanding there is of what we humans are and how disease manifests and how it can be healed..In my experience, only Divine Mind heals and Divine Mind which is Love is free of duality’s concepts about it…It’s clear here that fear is the basis of all illness – and when separation is healed – fear is no more..

    Thank you for coming back to be a Light Worker..Your authenticity and wisdom and Love are greatly appreciated..

  5. Such clarity and truth. Beautiful interview……..one of my favorites. Thank you Rick and Anita.

  6. Snow – Happy Now Here to you too, and to all.

    Jill – Thanks for the reminder of how close to the experience of physical death the ego death is. And then after, there is nothing more to fear.

  7. Regardless of religion or philosophy, there is one theme that strikes me as instinctively true from the NDE’s. That is the primacy of unconditional love.

  8. What is the use of her experience to me? She was just lucky to have whatever experience she had and it might be easy for her to not fear and do what you love n all.
    If at all we were not meant to fear, fearsome experiences would not be there in first place. A child does not know fear. Its behavior is as if it has no idea that there is something called fear. But the circumstances teach it that it is not so joyous as it was experiencing it before. The circumstances introduce them with fear. So don’t blame the mind or our culture and all. Mind creates fear because it has known it before. Nature or the so called life or oneness has brought into the system where you are bound to be food of other. Cruelty lies at the very core of it.
    Besides, after all her divine experiences, I would like to know her own response when she gets to face such life threatening situations again especially the ones caused by another human being.

  9. This was a nice change of pace.

    I like the discussion of fear. That’s important. Fear must be key to separation.

    And the concept of unconditional love for oneself, which must be a key to knowing Oneness, or the result of it.

    If you meditate, you might try a self-love meditation.

    You might try gathering unconditional love feelings for whatever or whoever it is you love the most, and then directing that same level of unconditional love to yourself.

    Let yourself be accepted, loved, and absorbed completely by the universe.

  10. Sam, you seem to have a lot of fear. Sitting with it and going to the root of what is causing it may help. Inquire within as it seems the only acceptable answer for anyone in fear-mode are the answers found in the first hand experience of inner wisdom. Go into your fear fully as it is the only way through. Om

  11. Time to remember the old Cherokee Tale…
    One evening an old Cherokee Indian told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside people. He said, ‘My son, the battle is between two ‘wolves’ inside us all.One is Evil. It is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.

    The other is good. It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith.’

    The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather: ‘Which wolf wins?’

    The old Cherokee simply replied, ‘The one you feed.’

  12. “Sam, you seem to have a lot of fear.” – simpletruth

    I didn’t detect a large quantity of fear in Sam’s words. Instead, I detected a different, qualitative response to it (fear):

    “If at all we were not meant to fear, fearsome experiences would not be there in first place.” – Sam

    There is a tendency, by some, to demonize fear or treat it as if it is an aberration of some sort.

    I read Sam’s words as an invitation for us to not fall into that trap.

    Fear may be as worthy a feeling to be felt and valued… as love is.

    N’est-ce pas, Sam?

  13. Steve,
    Reading between the lines, I don’t think Anita was saying we become individuals again after expansion, but rather that THIS that we are – Unconditional Love – gets lived through the body/mind in it’s own unique way…

    She was speaking from her heartfelt experience – and didn’t have the politically correct non-dual words to put to it…but the clarity and love coming through spoke for itself..

    I also don’t think she was speaking of putting forth effort of any kind..She was apparently swept away by Grace as anyone who has had a deep awakening is..

    We can’t heal ourselves as individual entities..but if we are fortunate to awaken to non-separation and with that, the accompanying loss of fear – there is the chance for true healing on all levels…

    That being said, destiny is destiny…and why questions can never be answered to our satisfaction…Why do some stay and some go – enlightened gurus included? Wisdom tells us that each leaves at exactly the right time – not one minute before..

    The goal of human life is not to live forever – but to come to know our true nature – express it as IT sees fit – and take our leave..

  14. Yes – and true nature includes unconditional love…We have Ramana’s face to remind us of that..

  15. You are much too agreeable today Steve… 😀

    I usually make the point about true nature including everything because I hear form people quite often whose experience of Self is empty – a cold dark Void type of thing…They are no longer suffering but they are not feeling or recognizing the inherent Love that is contained therein…

    Others mistakenly think that the absence of suffering IS or must be the fullness of Love….but not necessarily so..Often it takes awhile for the remaining layers of Maya to fall away after the awakening into the Vastness to truly know oneSelf as this Love..

    What is interesting about Anita’s experience or many of the NDE’s was that it was so all encompassing..a direct meeting with Grace..She was surrounded by Unconditional Love and Understanding – with the darkness being dispelled all at once..perhaps because she had already suffered much with her illness and thus the opening into the Light was immediately Self-Evident..

    Sam – take heart – Anita’s tale – like all awakenings serve as inspiration so we don’t lose hope…

  16. There is an old saying where I come from:

    “When you curse the Darkness,
    you curse Light.
    But when you embrace the Darkness,
    Light embraces you.”

  17. I know that Steve…you don’t miss much and Anita’s love was palpable..

    Peter – so true – it is precisely in the meeting and embracing of whatever appears that the pictures change..If it is a full embrace, then no need to keep going back in for dips..

    Eli Jaxon Bear speaks of 3 awakenings within the Self..
    “When you realize yourself as completely empty and devoid of all form, this is wisdom..

    When you realize yourself as the fullness of love overflowing itself without object, this is bliss..

    And when you are aware of yourself incarnate in the appearance of form, this is leela”..

    Sam – I don’t know what to say either…except to send love…You’re wise enough to know there is a way out of suffering or you wouldn’t be perusing this site…..You also must know that there are some wonderful guides out there willing to help light the way..so maybe you want to give one of them a chance to support you in whatever you’re going through..

  18. Anita actually has two sides to her and they work together. Duality and Non-Duality. It’s a Non-Duality that is broad enough to encompass Duality. E.g. at 1:14:45.
    Rick: “What is the purpose of life …”
    Anita: “We are here to experience individuality rather than being part of Oneness … only in physical life of duality can we actually know who we are … and to find out who you are are really is just to find your joy …”

    This point that Non-Duality does not exclude individuality is also echoed by Marlies Cochoret teaching in the Adyashanti lineage
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QhOytpAN1UQ

  19. Hi Ernest –
    Same themes keep popping up…so once again for entertainment purposes..
    An ‘individual’ does not live the life after liberation…but individuality does…there’s a difference…Something – – call it Presence or God or Love or meat loaf (sorry Steve) -lives through a particular body/mind and uses that uniqueness to express ITself…Experiencing ends with the dissolution of the experiencer..but Life goes on..

  20. LOL – You can say that again Steve!!! People hear what they want to hear..Taken from the perspective of duality – there is an individual lurking about living the life..From the standpoint of liberation, no such thing..
    I love this quote from Nisargadatta:
    “The false self is always engaged in ensuring it’s own continuity.”

  21. Hi Mike –
    Points noted..although no one said Anita was a supremely liberated soul out there liberating others.

    IMO she had a profound awakening experience – deep and wide -which left her with much love and light to share…a beautiful Presence ….

    Since no doctor can explain her recovery..it’s in the realm of miracle – we can just take it for what it is – an inspiring message for humanity that Unconditional Love can come to heal us even in our darkest hour..

  22. I agree, Jill, Anita’s recovery it is a miracle. And Anita did say that when she speaks of cancer and its relation to fear and emotion she is speaking from her own experience and would not make blanket statements about it. After that kind of experience of seeing her body heal itself it is pretty understandable that one will not be able to see cancer in the traditional (materialistic) way any more. C’mon, stage 4 lymphoma disappearing in a few weeks-how do you explain that? Medicine sure can’t. If all is consciousness including our bodies then won’t it mean that so is dis-ease?
    Thank you Rick and Anita for this wonderful interview. Anita, you are a great inspiration, thank you for sharing your story 🙂

  23. Beautiful, Steve…thanks for that quote..I look forward to Michael’s interview..

    It’s true, there is no liberation until we meet this fear of death head on and see that what we are holding onto is only an illusion – We must finally realize that we can never lose what never existed..and the good news is that we don’t have to physically die or go into coma to surrender…

    So when the fear arises – we invite it in…simple as that..This was a turning point for me 17 years ago when I just relaxed and allowed…gave up the ferocious battle to survive and said to God – do with me what you will – I’m tired….
    ..
    It had never occurred to me back when the shakti had me by the throat – to not resist the rising fear..until I came upon Dr Lee Sanellas book – The Kundalini Experience…He was the first person to suggest welcoming the fear of death in..and I somehow mustered the courage to do so…
    Certainly took me long enough..but some of us are slower than others..

  24. Here is a video of Bruce Lipton (a biologist) who Anita mentioned, I think what he has to say is very interesting and shows how much misunderstanding there is out there imposed on us by materialistic views.”You are not controlled by genes, you are controlled by your perceptions of the environment..yes, defective genes do exist but they only affect 5% of the population” “Genes are selected and rewritten by our belief systems” Here Bruce Lipton explains his scientific work : The New Biology http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVECAlT4AXY

  25. Beautifully stated Night Lily…’If all is consciousness including our bodies, then won’t it mean that so is dis-ease’…
    and that’s exactly where I feel the awakened collective consciousness is evolving to- to understand the possibility of healing at a deeper much more subtle level…
    It’s not enough to be liberated if the body lags behind..It must be included in the realization..

  26. I have never had
    more enlightening teachers
    than the fears
    that have visited me
    to expose me to myself.

  27. from the video: “organisms always match their environment and as the environment changes the organisms change to adapt to the environment. What does it mean about yourself? What environments are you living in and what are your belief systems they become very important because what we find now is that your genes will adapt to your beliefs..”

  28. Jill: “It’s not enough to be liberated if the body lags behind..It must be included in the realization”.. yes! With all my love to Ramana I have to note that while he had the deepest realization one can easily see that his body was not healthy and balanced (even before cancer)..while this in no way undermines the depth of his realization it just shows that there is more “work” to be done…realization is only the beginning…

  29. and yes, cancer is not always” bad” , as was noted in the interview, and neither is fear, they serve a purpose and can be a blessing…

  30. Yep, agreed Peter- all our fears teach us something if we want to continually learn about ourselves into perpetuity- but if we are bent on liberation, we go to the root of all fear, and there we find that there is the mother of all fears lurking underneath them all..the fear of non-existence….When that is faced, there is no more fear..as the illusion of self is seen through..

    Night Lily -what you are saying reminds me of what Braco is now bringing forth by his appearance in the world- He is emerging at a time when the collective consciousness is shifting into a less dense form..and the mass belief system in ‘conquering’ disease is waning..

    It is said that as consciousness evolves, his healing capability also evolves…He can’t give us anything we are not willing to receive..but he is showing us by penetrating and attuning the physical structure through unconditional love -that there is more integration to take place in human consciousness…

    All the old gurus were unfortunately products of the denser environment of their times..and the body was not able to surmount that density..but the times they are a changing…

  31. I hear you, Jill. Remember the New testament where it is described how Jesus healed people and when the healed ones fell to his feet he said that it was not he who healed them but their beliefs that healed them (can’t remember the exact quote). Exactly what new biology is saying now…

  32. this whole notion of “battling cancer” with banners on every street corner (along with battling everything else-depression, anxiety, etc etc) so prevalent in the Western society now, on a deeper level really means “battling yourself” we are fighting wars with ourselves…no wonder the world is such a mess…

  33. disease is not an enemy -sometimes it is a friendly reminder and sometimes it is a cry for help…don’t fight-LISTEN

  34. Indeed.

    I once crossed paths with someone for whom the fear of nonexistence dissipated.

    When asked why he wasn’t interested in fighting the cancer that had visited him, he replied that he was too busy learning how to dance with it without stepping on its toes.

  35. I may have seen this person or someone who had the same realization,
    he came on stage during Gangaji’s sat sang…beautiful

  36. my first spiritual teacher had the same happen, she had very aggressive recurring breast cancer and after her doctor announced this to her she went home and something happened…an opening…that was the last time she saw her doctors and had any treatment done…fast forward 25 years she is cancer free and is teaching meditation…cancer went away after she tangoed with it for a while 🙂 Her whole life and perception of life changed after that just as it happened with Anita

  37. “For the Sage, what desire remains for the body to be other than what it is? For things to be other than they are.”

    You don’t have to see yourself as a sage, Mike… or be seen as one… for you to have the perspectives that you mention.

    It just comes with the turf of having the scales before your eyes dropped. Not of your own doing, of course. They just drop.

    As for the matter of healing, the motivation for it is sometimes premised on a desire for continued self-perpetuation. “Sometimes” underscored.

  38. Yet another great interview and I have to join in after so long watching from the sidelines!
    Thanks for all the wisdom shared here.
    Jill:
    “I usually make the point about true nature including everything because I hear form people quite often whose experience of Self is empty – a cold dark Void type of thing…They are no longer suffering but they are not feeling or recognizing the inherent Love that is contained therein…”
    This sounds like me…any suggestions..?
    Thanks

  39. Beautiful wise words here from all..and it’s true, to the Sage the body has been a mere afterthought..but it’s also good to open to the possibility that our full potential has not been reached even in our definition of Sage….

    From my early study of Christian Science where I witnessed many spontaneous healings, it is thought that a master is not a true master unless he can heal the body as well as the spirit…as Jesus did….knowing that consciousness or Divine Mind includes everything..no separation anywhere..

    A true healer heals by overriding or superseding a person’s belief in matter – the belief in the concreteness or solidity of the material world…A glorious time on earth will be when we can do this for ourselves…so there will be no more suffering on any level for anyone..

  40. Thank you Steve..that was gorgeous – we’re going to have to get you in for an interview soon..

    It’s true Mike that there is no suffering for the Sage who knows himself to be beyond mind..but if Presence decides to live in the apparent world a while longer, why not have full freedom as you said -which includes a balanced body….

    The other thing that Steve alludes to is that if before realization we are not enjoying good health it can be a stumbling block to knowing ourselves as true nature..as the time spent in managing the illness can consume much of our energy and time as well as solidify the mis-identification..

    Lastly, we have to remember that not everyone will profoundly awaken in this lifetime – so that I’m interested in any wisdom or method that can point to or alleviate at least the physical suffering for them….

  41. Mike, I can say to what you said- why give if Consciousness is already everything and requires nothing? Why love if Consciousness is love itself? Why strive towards health when Consciousness can not be sick? … Life naturally flows towards greater and greater balance and this includes balance of our human bodies.

  42. Steve: An ailing body can often make the mis-identification and attachment even stronger, and an even greater obstacle to knowing our True Nature.
    Right on,Steve..and it can also be the doorway like in Anita’s case . It is all about perception.

  43. I would love to see Steve and Jill interviewed! May be where batgap is heading, so much wisdom here 🙂

  44. Jill, no disagreements with you on the point that the individual does not exist, while “individuality” does through one’s body-mind, propensities, and/or calling. (Even in the “normal” sense, the “self” does not exist as a static entity since the mechanism of identification can shift from “I”, to “we”, merging with the mother, or with family, clan, nation, characters of a movie, one’s “work”, or not at all as in open spacious awareness.)

  45. I hear you, Al. I know that “cold” place you are speaking about and what Jill was pointing to. I can see how one can get stuck there. I see many neo advaitans stuck there. Feels to me that Anita’s advice on following your joy is right on. For me it is working with animals…Each of us has our own calling of the heart, you just need to hear it.

  46. Al on..
    So glad you joined us…no point in being alone on the journey..only one Self that we are all aspects of..

    Concerning your question – without knowing any more about your experience except your resonance with emptiness, generally speaking, the suggestion is to give it some time…

    My teacher Pamela Wilson used to say that if we awaken to ourselves and it first appears more stark than we’d imagined – ‘we want to make love to the emptiness’- be ever grateful for it – see it as a milestone in human evolution..and have faith that it will surely be seen one day for what it truly is…Love Itself..

    Sometimes we are caught in the Void because we are still mourning the loss of something we cannot name..so a sadness pervades…The sadness is also indicative of an expectation that has yet to be met..

    Devotion to either the form or the formless Self -can help to lift the veil even further….I also found that a ‘willingness’ to forgive everyone everything including ourselves was of importance in going deeper..we know not what we do -and holding on to anything – any perceived notion of wrongdoing – can often keep us stuck..

    It’s also good to remember that Divine Grace which is unconditional Love is always with us at every point along the way…moving things along at a perfect pace for each – and no one knows the exact time or moment when IT reveals to you its true face..

    For now and for anyone – no matter where they may be residing – Anita’s suggestion is a good one..’Do what brings you joy’ – even in the smallest of endeavors…whether it’s reading inspiring literature – walking in nature or playing your favorite music..

    When we treat ourselves well – and are kind and accepting of all that arises within and without- joy, which is our intrinsic nature, naturally blossoms..

    Love to you, and let us know how your are fairing..

  47. Oh c’mon, Steve, as Rick says, we are all bozos on this bus 🙂 that’s what makes it fun

  48. Jill, we posted a reply to Al almost at the same time! You put it so beautifully. Adya also speaks about this place, and he helps a lot of people stuck there. He calls it disappearance of personal will. It is a limbo place when one sees through the ego enough to let go of personal will but something bigger still hasn’t taken over…I heard many people during Adya’s satsangs talk about this. In every case he usually points to something that they are still holding on to afraid to let go.

  49. Well said Ernest – glad you noted the distinction between an individual surviving realization and the individuality living it…and I like that idea of identity being fluid even in the relative sense..beautiful..
    So, since you know this intellectually and have also tasted this Truth for yourself, can we lay the idea of a surviving separate individual identity to rest and just chalk up what remains to as you said – propensities – flavors – gifts etc?

  50. I think you’re my alter ego Night Lily – giggle..we’re on the same page..

    Yes that place Al was speaking of is so common that it’s almost become a rite of passage..and Adya is so right that it always requires a deeper surrender…a letting go of some aspect of self that is perceived as majorly important to us…

    Sometimes it’s just a feeling of not being deserving of God’s love..Pamela used to say that bliss was harder to bear than suffering..

    I always feel that a teacher or guide can be of real help at that point – to get in there with clarity and see specifically what it is that is blocking the full View…what are we unable or unwilling to surrender..

    So many veils that cover the heart…and it’s precisely the heart that needs to blossom when we are coming up empty..

  51. “I usually make the point about true nature including everything because I hear form people quite often whose experience of Self is empty – a cold dark Void type of thing…They are no longer suffering but they are not feeling or recognizing the inherent Love that is contained therein…”

    Speaking only from my personal experience in meditation, the experience of Self as Emptiness is an attribute-less experience.

    Coldness, darkness… and yes, even Love… are attributes that are assigned to an attribute-less experience.

    The attribute-less experience of Self as Emptiness.

    If I am experiencing coldness, darkness, or love, I am not experiencing Self as Emptiness. I am experiencing my response to Self as Emptiness. Which is a whole other experience.

  52. I get what you’re saying Peter – realizing oneself as Absolute Emptiness is not an experience of anything…but everything arises within it…including, and most importantly, Love….If not, we’ve missed a step…There are no sacrifices of joy or love or compassion etc along the way when we are liberated…quite the contrary – as true Emptiness when seen in its Absolute Fullness – doesn’t leave anything out..

  53. @Jill “So, since you know this intellectually and have also tasted this Truth for yourself, can we lay the idea of a surviving separate individual identity to rest and just chalk up what remains to as you said – propensities – flavors – gifts etc?”

    The answer is “yes”, and by a long shot. The remainder (“vasanas”) will have to take care of itself with time since it’s probably easier said and willed than done. (Neelam’s inquiry practice is a big help here.) But the immediate experience is “resting in the Void” (which is also Fullness, Life, sweetness, Love, Light, and Self if one’s attention goes to that aspect). This happens when I can slow down enough to allow it to fill the space. (Certainly not when I’m computer programming or getting worked up about American politics.) The Marlies video expresses both my sentiment and experience (though hers is more thorough and persistent). She nicely ties in the devotional and Love aspect which harkens back to my earlier Christian (Catholic mystical/contemplative) days. She most closely expresses my version of “Non-Dualism”.

    But I want to emphasize, this is my path (the so called “path of ascent” the “path of return”). I cannot claim it would be right for another person. I cannot even claim it’s the highest form of spirituality. Who knows. I’ve been around the block enough (including outside the Non-Dual traditions) to be aware of those who see the opposite as the greater task (the “path of descent”), the Divine incarnated in human form, in embodiment, in matter, in the messiness of evolution as the leading edge. And of course, both sides will have their gifts to contribute as well as their pathological versions.

  54. Beautiful, Ernest – sigh of relief -but rest assured – what goes up must come down…not an either/or proposition -we complete the cycle – Papaji doesn’t fool around – and not as messy on the descent as we would think, as we are then in the world but not of it..

  55. It is interesting how pearls of wisdom can be found in the most unlikely places, just heard this during a movie preview at a movie theatre tonight “..Fear is not real, it is a product of your thoughts. Don’t get me wrong, danger is real, but fear is a choice”…loved it, I think i’ll go see that movie when it is out , (it’s called After Earth)

  56. exactly, the times are changing…and maybe certain themes keep popping up because something new is emerging in spirituality (except for the “hermetically-closed-in-their-minds”)…

    There were no bells or whistles. There was no out-of-body flight or any sensations entering an altered state of consciousness. There was nothing as dramatic as what had happened when I was seven. I only saw a human figure appear in front of me. This was not a specific person but a generic individual, almost like a department store mannequin. It was not a being of Light as I was used to seeing, but seemed sculpted from light that glowed from within itself. It definitely appeared solid and physical, even though radiant with light. It seemed bursting with meaning; so much so that if information were heat and light, it would seem that this individual was standing in front of a furnace. I felt overwhelmed by the insights this figure contained, and could not grasp them all. Almost fifty years later, I’m still unpacking the information it had to offer. But one thing stood out.
    This figure represented an incarnate person in physical embodiment. It was neither a spiritual nor a non-physical being. It was not an image of what a person might become if he or she left the physical plane or became some kind of ascended master. It was an image of the spiritual Light contained within and radiating from the act of individuation and personhood. It was the light of being a person. As I watched, the figure changed into a chalice and then became a figure again. It did this three times altogether, as if emphasizing that this person also represented a quality of holding. Afterward, I thought of this figure as “the person who is also a chalice”. At the same time this vision unfolded in front of me, I sensed the presence of a group of inner beings in the background, one of whom came to stand behind me. He said quite distinctly, “There is a new spirituality emerging, a spirituality of personhood and incarnation. It will represent a new way of being in the world.”

    – David Spangler, “Apprenticed to Spirit”

    (by the way, the yogic work of Aurobindo initiated the truly integral transformation of the body/matter towards a supramental body – the yoga of the cells – a complete reversal of the traditional, otherworldly dismissal/escape of this manifestation – he called it very aptly “illusionistic Vedanta” in his letters on yoga…)

    The goal is not to lose oneself in the Divine Consciousness.
    The goal is to let the Divine Consciousness penetrate into Matter and transform it.
    ***
    ‘… [T]hrough many centuries a great army of shining witnesses, saints and teachers, names sacred to Indian memory and dominant in Indian imagination, have borne always the same witness and swelled always the same lofty and distant appeal, – renunciation the sole path of knowledge, acceptation of physical life the act of the ignorant, cessation from birth the right use of human birth, the call of the Spirit, the recoil from Matter.
    ***
    ‘ … We seek indeed a larger and completer affirmation. We perceive that in the Indian ascetic ideal the great Vedantic formula, “One without a second”, has not been read sufficiently in the light of that other formula equally imperative, “All this is the Brahman”. The passionate aspiration of man upward to the Divine has not been sufficiently related to the descending movement of the Divine leaning downward to embrace eternally Its manifestation. Its meaning in Matter has not been so well understood as Its truth in the Spirit.’
    ***
    When we connect to the evolving soul within, and then to the eternal self and cosmic being, and further to the transcendent Divine, becoming instruments of its light and power, we permanently overcome the ego sense and thus eliminate falsehood and evil in our being.
    ***
    In a realistic Adwaita there is no need to regard the Saguna as a creation from the Nirguna or even secondary or subordinate to it: both are equal aspects of the one Reality, its position of silent status and rest and its position of action and dynamic force; a silence of eternal rest and peace supports an eternal action and movement.
    The one Reality, the Divine Being, is bound by neither, since it is in no way limited; it possesses both. There is no incompatibility between the two, as there is none between the Many and the One, the sameness and the difference. They are all eternal aspects of the universe which could not exist if either of them were eliminated, and it is reasonable to suppose that they both came from the Reality which has manifested the universe and are both real. We can only get rid of the apparent contradiction – which is not really a contradiction but only a natural concomitance – by treating one or the other as an illusion.
    But it is hardly reasonable to suppose that the eternal Reality allows the existence of an eternal illusion with which it has nothing to do or that it supports and enforces on being a vain cosmic illusion and has no power for any other and real action. The force of the Divine is always there in silence as in action, inactive in silence, active in the manifestation. It is hardly possible to suppose that the Divine Reality has no power or force or that its only power is to create a universal falsehood, a cosmic lie –
    ***
    “…Time is the remaining aid needed for the effectivity of the [Supramental yoga].
    Time presents itself to human effort as an enemy or a friend, as a resistance, a medium or an instrument. But always it is really the instrument of the soul.’…‘To the ego it is a tyrant or a resistance, to the Divine an instrument. Therefore, while our effort is personal, Time appears as a resistance, for it presents to us all the obstruction of the forces that conflict with our own. When the divine working and the personal are combined in our consciousness, it appears as a medium and condition. When the two become one, it appears as a servant and instrument …”
    – Sri Aurobindo

  57. “The goal is not to lose oneself in the Divine Consciousness. The goal is to let the Divine Consciousness penetrate into Matter and transform it.”

    An exemplary example of a common phenomenon, albeit an often unobservable one. The phenomenon of turning a subject experience into an objective conclusion or attestation.

    We do it all the time when we convert :my truth” into “the truth”. And in this case, one’s goal appears as “the goal”.

    Be wary when someone represents his or her experience of X to be true for others.

    There are no the truths or the goals; there are only my truths and my goals.

  58. As for the latest experience, I can’t say for sure that no one has ever had it, because someone like Ramakrishna, individuals like that, could have had it. But I am not sure, for when I had this experience (not of the divine Presence, which I had already felt in the cells for a long time, but the experience that the Divine ALONE is acting in the body, that He has BECOME the body, yet all the while retaining his character of divine omniscience and omnipotence) well, the whole time it remained actively like that, it was absolutely impossible to have the LEAST disorder in the body, and not only in the body, but IN ALL THE SURROUNDING MATTER. It was as if every object obeyed without even needing to decide to obey: it was automatic. There was a divine harmony in EVERYTHING (it took place in my bathroom upstairs, certainly to demonstrate that it exists in the most trivial things), in everything, constantly. So if that is established in a permanent way, there CAN NO LONGER be illness it is impossible. There can no longer be accidents, there can no longer be illness, there can no longer be disorders, and everything should harmonize (probably in a progressive way) just as that was harmonized: all the objects in the bathroom were full of a joyful enthusiasm – everything obeyed, everything!

    As it was the first experience, it started to fade slightly when I began having contact with people; but I really had the feeling that it was a first experience, new upon earth. For I have experienced an absolute identity of the will with the divine Will ever since 1910, it has never left me. It isn’t that, it’s SOMETHING ELSE. It is MATTER BECOMING THE DIVINE. And it really came with the feeling that this thing was happening for the first time upon earth. It is difficult to say for sure, but Ramakrishna died of cancer, and now that I have had the experience, I know in an ABSOLUTE way that this is impossible. If he had decided to go because the Divine wanted him to go, it would have been an orderly departure, in total harmony and with a total will, whereas this illness is a means of disorder.

    Satprem: Is this experience of May 1 related to the Supramental Manifestation of 1956? Is it a supramental experience?

    Mirra: It is the result of the descent of the supramental substance into Matter. Only this substance – what it has put into physical Matter – could have made it possible. It is a new ferment. From the material standpoint, it removes from physical Matter its tamas, the heaviness of its unconsciousness, and from the psychological standpoint, its ignorance and its falsehood. Matter is subtilized. But it has surely come only as a first experience to show how it will be.

    It is truly a state of absolute omniscience and omnipotence in the body which changes all the vibrations around it.

    From the Agenda, June 6, 1958

  59. “I am conscious of my body, but I don’t mean this (Mother touches her body): I am conscious of THE body – it could be anyone’s body! I am conscious of these vibrations of disorder, which come most often in the form of suggestions of disorder: a suggestion of hemorrage for example….The battle begins to be fought…between what we can call “the will to hemorrage” and the reaction of the cells of the body….But suddenly, the body is seized with a very strong determination and proclaims an order, and immediately the effect begins to be felt and everything returns gradually to normal. All this happens in the material consciousness. My body has all the physical sensations except the (actual) hemorrage….A few days later, I receive a letter from someone, and in the letter is the whole story: the attack, the hemorrhage, and suddenly the being is seized with an overpowering determination and hears the words – the very words uttered HERE. In the end he is cured, saved….And so I began to realise that my body is everywhere! You see, it is not just a matter of these cells: they are cells in, who knows how many, perhaps hundreds or thousands of people…It is THE body…”
    [quoted in Satprem The Mind of the Cells, pp.51-2]

  60. “The goal is not to lose oneself in the Divine Consciousness – The goal is to let the Divine Consciousness penetrate into matter and transform it”

    Thanks for that quote Uli- I don’t think any liberated one would have a problem with it -because that’s exactly how it is…If the surrender is deep enough, we naturally complete the cycle..

    Once the paradox is resolved, the Life is lived seamlessly with no distinction between the Absolute and Relative realities…One Reality – one Life…Love comes down from the mountain – and the descent is as natural as the ascent..

    But we can’t discount the ascent either…One has to first see that the world is illusion -that the ego doesn’t exist..which is what true Advaita speaks to…..first things first…Because only then, can we reverse course and make the descent and return as fully embodied Presence..

    From the experience here, the individual does not return – but that which we truly are, does..and THAT is the transformative value..

    Yes there are renunciates and there always will be but as the quote went on to say – The transformative power of Being is found in the Silence of inaction as well as in the Silence of action..either way – there is a contribution being made..

    I’ll say it again – when the paradox of living is resolved within – these points become irrelevant…free will/vs determination – choice/no choice – action/inaction/ – body/nobody etc etc..Only the dualistic mind is concerned with them..

    In liberation, the war within stops because mortal mind is no longer running the show – seeing separation where none exists….Then Divine Mind is gracefully moved to act through the human mechanism in whichever way IT deems appropriate..

  61. just to be clear: when Aurobindo speaks of “the” goal, it’s in the context of introducing his integral yoga, not as the one and only way…

  62. “You can quote people past and living till you’re blue in the face. The fact is it comes down to one person’s interpretation of their experience.”

    Right on, Mike.

    Just as I quoted you above, my interpretation of it is ALWAYS a subjective one. That’s true for everyone.

    One of the potent fruits of the invitation to “know thyself” is… we discover how we tend to objectify our subjective experiences.

    Or, my map (which is still never the territory, of course)… is the map that applies to you as well.

  63. Peter,
    Agreed that there are many ways or paths to liberation -and many subjective experiences along the way – but liberation is the end of subjectivity. and is a universal experience..and there are commonalities to this experience across all spiritual paths..
    If not, then I guess we can throw out every scripture of every major religion ever written..as well as every testimony of those past and present who live this freedom..
    The only discrepancy I can find between any of the great works and their exponents, is coming from the dualistic interpreters of said experience..but Reality is what it is..unchanging, absolute in its manifestation..

    Mike – well said…and I agree there are many flights of fantasy that a seeker is prone to take off on..so it’s best as you say, to keep emphasizing the here and now lest we lose our way…
    But that is not to say that this here and now is some stark, forbidding, bare bones Reality without a vision or light of it’s own…without insight or vision..That’s not the experience here..It is full of joy and unconditional love and clear seeing as Anita indicated….
    I’ve found 1that when we draw such a contrast between here and there, between Reality and Mind generated Fantasy – it makes those who are less inclined to want to face Reality – less inclined to do so….
    The siddhis and such are carrots to draw some in..and keep them motivated..until we are ready for surrender of everything..It takes many lifetimes to want only Truth, which again brings us back to the fact that Vedanta in it’s purest form, is not for everyone..

  64. “Agreed that there are many ways or paths to liberation -and many subjective experiences along the way – but liberation is the end of subjectivity. and is a universal experience..and there are commonalities to this experience across all spiritual paths…”

    I respect your subscription to the idea of liberation, Jill. And I applaud you for desiring to be of help to those who share the same subscription. Subscribers to that idea/notion abound, so there’s lots of opportunity for your valued services.

    But I am not a subscriber to that idea/notion, at the “present moment” (hats off to Mike here).

    Mirages do not require liberation for me. They are simply mirages. Appearing and dis-appearing at will, which is their nature/essence.

    That includes the mirage of me communicating with the mirage of you, of course.

    In this dance of mirages that we are all a part of.

  65. Hi, Steve. Several reasons.

    Ramana is very often quoted here, sometimes in an effort to support or back up a particular perspective of a poster.

    Michael is uniquely qualified to authoritatively address the context (underscored) of Ramana’s words and thoughts, IMO, without the intrusion of an over-inflated ego.

    I intuit no one else to be more qualified than Michael to perform that service here. The service of authoritatively addressing the context of Ramana’s utterances, without the need to see them in any particular light.

    As I said in an earlier occasion, Steve, I’m rarely attracted to WHAT a person believes. I’m much more attracted to HOW they believe what they believe.

    And it’s not what Michael believes that draws my attention. It’s how he believes it.

    Some grasps are strongly egocentric; some less. I intuit Michael’s grasp, of Raman’a utterances, to be of the latter.

  66. Uli,
    You might be interested in my friend Dr Kurt Johnson who Rick will be interviewing in the coming weeks…His new book – The Coming Interspiritual Age is getting wonderful reviews…He’s very much an admirer of Aurobindo..and is a leader in the Integral movement of today… Kurt was a trappist monk for 14 years…as well as an evolutionary biologist..

    After Kurt’s shift took place in the monastery he wrote to Pamela Wilson to ask for her clarification..Two months later he came to her satsang and began working toward integration with her which is where we met..circa 2000-01.

    Stillness Speaks has just added him to their site and released some of the correspondence between Pamela and Kurt that took place when he was in the monastery..Here’s part of what Pamela wrote to him back then…which I think you’ll enjoy..As you can see, Ramana’s transmission is anything but dry..

    Kurt,
    “There’s a reservoir of devotion in the spiritual heart which rests, waiting for a silent song…akin to moonlight whose soft touch opens the evening flowers..And then it flows unreservedly from heart to heart…How lucky we are to be the Mystery’s children and to know it..not as father mother but that which breathes us, moves rivers within, and beats the drum of our heart..This is communion of Self to Self, life and love in devotion to Self – a celebration of what is real and cannot die..”
    Love,
    Pamela..

  67. Very cool, Mike.

    You gave me something to look forward to when I return from my errands.

    Later, ‘gator.

  68. No disagreement there Mike – we’re on the same page – trust the here and now of course – and I’m certainly not an advocate as you know for bells and whistles – just at times want to give a vision of possibilities..lest anyone gets stuck in the dryness –

    and yes the great spiritual literature only comes alive post liberation..doesn’t serve to really illuminate beforehand – but at certain points of doubt or confusion, it can be an important source of validation ….especially for those without the up close and personal, personal teacher..lest we get off track and start to make up our own idea of realization…

  69. To the dream action figure who is engaged in The Dream, of course love appears to be the real thing. So does every other aspect of The Dream. It comes with the territory of Dream participation/engagement.

    *substitutes the term apparition for mirage*

    But once you taste the essence of your apparitional nature, Jill, you dis-cover that ALL of your ideas and notions about anything and everything… are apparitions as well.

    Then you can start dancing with them, instead of defending them.

  70. Hello all,
    I love the clarity emanating from Jan Frazier’s words. This is from her book “The Freedom of Being – at ease with what is”:

    “The spiritual life is about learning how to be fundamentally okay no matter what happens.it’s about relaxing the dogged attempt to fix each thing as it comes along, instead putting primary attention on your interior. This isn’t about keeping a stiff upper lip or living at a distance from life, or taking refuge in comforting ideas about how “none of this is real.” it’s about being in full recognition of what-is, even as you’re not at its mercy.”

    There is great reading material on her website Janfrazierteachings.com.

    Besides Ramesh and Mooji, I also greatly enjoy Vernon Howard’s “The Mystic Path to Cosmic Power”.

    Just thought I’d share just in case someone is experiencing things the way I am.

  71. Thank you for that clarification on MJ Steve…Yes – all true teachers are leading us back to our true nature..which is peace and joy…What else would their function be?
    Some love us into it – the bhakti way of the heart – Some use discrimination to take us home – the discriminating way of the jnani.- but all, as Touvino’s quote indicated, bring us back to Reality – to a fundamental place of acceptance of what is as it is…which is the Kingdom of Heaven within…

  72. “Not only does happiness exist within us – it is in fact our true nature, our essential being.” ~ MJ, a la Steve

    *approaches a clean, empty blackboard and writes the word “happiness” on it… steps back a few feet and Feels the affirmation “happiness is my true nature and essential being”*

    *approaches the blackboard and erases the word “happiness” (which returns the blackboard to being Empty)… steps back a few feet and Feels the affirmation “Emptiness is my true nature and essential being.”*

    I see my reflection more easily in the empty blackboard, Steve, than I do with any word that may be inscribed on it.

  73. Alphie,

    “When Fear Falls Away” is next on my list. I should be receiving it tomorrow. I simply love getting my hands on such gems. As I read them, and they always show up at the perfect moment :), I experience the veils dissipating, evaporating, falling away leaving behind great spaciousness, clarity and joy.

  74. “I see my reflection more easily in the empty blackboard, Steve, than I do with any word that may be inscribed on it.”

    Just curious, then, Peter …. what motivates you to hang out in the “comments” section of a website like this? 🙂

  75. Hi, Mila. Happy to oblige.

    I try to surround myself with a diversity of viewpoints as much as I can.. to avoid what I call the “echo chamber effect”.

    The ECE is what often occurs when you are immersed in an environment of people who see and feel as you do about a particular subject… or an environment where commonly shared perceptional biases.are reinforced by others sharing the same biases.

    If you are interested in consistently questioning your own beliefs… which I am and which I encourage my daughter to… exposing yourself to a diversity of viewpoints becomes a very helpful means towards steering clear of the ECE effect, I have found.

    That, in part, is why I come here. Another part being that I LOVE the practice of meditation, and sharing the fruits of my experience in meditation with others who enjoy its fruits too.

    Does that answer your question, Mila?

  76. good question, Steve 🙂

    & thanks for satisfying my curiosity, Peter. I admire an open, questioning, intelligently-doubting mind ….

  77. It was a pleasure answering you question, Mila.

    Chiefly because it carried no assumption of what my motivation might be.

    Rather, it asked for it.

    Assumption-less questions are a rare commodity these days.

    Thanks for treating me to one. 🙂

  78. Your curiosity is so noted, Steve.

    I don’t see a question there, though, so I won’t assume one was inferred.

    Explicitness… has its virtues.

  79. “If you are interested in consistently questioning your own beliefs… which I am”

    Now of course Ramana’s advice here would (I’m assuming :)) likely be to go straight for questioning the one belief — namely, the belief in a “separate self” — whose unraveling pretty well takes care of the rest of them — renders any remaining beliefs (appearing within “your” mind or that of “someone else”) to be innocuous: no more troublesome than clouds passing through the sky ….. right?

    And then, if we choose to congregate around shared interests, ways of speaking, or whatever — no problem! And we can even welcome and dance with “beliefs” — without necessarily having to believe them 🙂

  80. I’ll have to chew/reread your first paragraph a few times, Mila, to more fully understand/appreciate it. Gotta feel that I fully understand something before I can respond to it.

    Your second paragraph struck a particular nerve in me, however. Not good or bad; just did.

    I’ll substitute group think for ECE here too.

    Most collective identifications (nationalism, religions, ethnicity, etc.), I have discovered, emanate from group think.

    And the stronger the group think, the more biased the shared biases are expressed.

    From a very early age, I had what I call a healthy aversion to group think, and its many manifestations.

    It was what it was then (the aversion to group think), and it is what it is now.

    BTW, it is the nature of group think to generally be exclusive of contrary views. That’s how strong biases generally treat differing views.

  81. “everything.”

    Amen 🙂

    Peter — Francis Lucille makes a distinction, which I have found useful, between, on the one hand, groups (political parties, religions, whatever) which gather together around shared, unexamined, reified beliefs; and, on the other hand, true sangha — which is a gathering-together based upon shared *experience* (viz. a glimpse of Truth).

    The former tend toward fundamentalism, and — as you’ve said — are best avoided.

    The latter — a true sangha — can function as a beautiful support system, as well as a venue for celebrating with spiritual friends. Kind of like heart-cells in our body — which are necessarily differentiated from other kinds of cells (say, kidney-cells), and necessarily work together — but for a very good purpose.

    Which is just to say, or at least suggest …. that not all groups are evil 🙂

  82. LOL

    Never thought or said that any group was evil, Mila.

    Just freely revealed that I am not attracted to group think manifestations where differing views are treated as subordinate to the the prevailing ones amongst the group.

    There is a benefit to prevailing views being juxtaposed to non-prevailing ones.

    And I’m a big fan of that particular benefit.

    Peter <— ideological anarchist of a sort

  83. “There is a benefit to prevailing views being juxtaposed to non-prevailing ones.”

    Totally agree!

    But this kind of brings it back around (in my view) to the point I made above — that once we’ve fully unwound the “belief in a separate self” — then any remaining beliefs (ours or others) cease to be threatening. (Making it a very efficient approach, if we can pull it off 🙂 )

    “Peter <— ideological anarchist of a sort"

    That's cool …. just might want to take care not to get too identified with a "rebel" persona 🙂 — Peter-the-ideological-anarchist is just a dream-character, yes?

  84. “the-ideological-anarchist is just a dream-character, yes?”

    Yeppers. All self-images are. As are our images of others. Mental apparitions at play. Double yeppers.

    “just might want to take care not to get too identified with a ‘rebel'” persona”

    Good news (or not). I’ve never had as loose a grip on my self-images as I do now. And I suspect that they will culminate, in looseness, when its time for me to shed my space suit.

    “once we’ve fully unwound the “belief in a separate self” — then any remaining beliefs (ours or others) cease to be threatening. (Making it a very efficient approach, if we can pull it off 🙂 )”

    That is not my experience now, although it once was in he past.

    No belief needs to be “unwound”, and nothing needs to be done to any belief.

    Instead, it’s HOW we grasp any particular belief that determines the density/hardness of the ego structure within us, or its porousness/ephemeralness.

    But check with me, re. this, later, Mila. I have an increasingly loose grip on this perspective as well. 🙂

  85. Thank you, MIke, for sharing your communion with Michael James with us.

    I’m going to enjoy each chew. 🙂

  86. Peter – “I LOVE the practice of meditation.”

    Very glad to hear you say that. As far as I can tell, most if not all of the great teachers and gurus have meditated, including the Master of Galilee – (“the Kingdom of Heaven is within.”)

    IMO without meditation, satsang, preferably both, it’s mostly just talk.

    But of course personal experience is what counts in the end.

  87. Laurence:

    You’ve cited those who have been visible, who practiced mediation.

    But so have the invisible. For meditation has facilitated their invisibility. Or, their presence of their non-presence.

    I equate talking to indirect experience, and meditation to direct experience.

    They both bear their distinctive fruit.

  88. Yes – Michael is quite clear – that the outer teacher who shows up is the manifestation of the satguru within…

    Most seekers cannot recognize (apart from glimpses) the I AM within for themselves even after years of pain-staking meditation and self inquiry -thus the I AM takes form so that we can see ourSelves more clearly..That’s what resonance is –

    We meet a satguru in form and the attraction is like a moth to a flame – we feel that they are speaking directly to our heart – their words pierce our heart and penetrate the mind’s defenses – and we are captured by our own Self..

    This is why it’s important to make the distinction between a final teacher – the manifest satguru who is Reality Itself – and a mere spiritual teacher…because only one who knows his own true nature – who is empty of self – can reflect the Truth back to us…
    Thanks for posting Mike..

  89. Just sharing two clear quotes from Ramesh Balsekar:

    “It is destiny that determines all that happens including the arising of dispassion that leads to self-enquiry, the meeting between the guru and the disciple, and the fructifying or otherwise of the guru’s teaching in the disciple.”

    “Silence does not mean not talking. Silence is silence of the mind. Silence is absence of questions, absence of thinking, true meditation.”

  90. Peter – Direct experience vs. indirect experience. “They both bear their distinctive fruit.” Agreed.

    My thinking on this has undergone a change. I used to believe that direct experience was the only thing that was useful. Then I began to find that things other people cited from their own experience would often trigger a realization or breakthrough.
    A while back there was a short satsang video of Francis Lucille which sent me sprawling.

  91. “Sent me sprawling” – meaning the props were kicked out from under – a good thing. Just right for that moment in time.

  92. “Direct experience vs. indirect experience.”

    Mind if I change that to direct experience and indirect experience, Laurence? They don’t have to be oppositional; they can be quite complementary with each other.

    A potential pitfall lies in construing indirect experience (thinking, talking, etc. ) to be direct experience, though.

    Attendance at formal and informal sanghas, for instance… without the inner work of meditation… can often be fertile ground for that miscontruance.

  93. Touv,
    Beautiful quotes by Ramesh – yes – Silence is Silence of the mind – It is the absence of all separation..
    Have you read Ramesh’s A Duet of One – his commentary on the Astavakra Gita? just gorgeous..

    Anita’s speaking of fear made me think of the poet/sage Bhirtrihari’s writings on it..how deep seeded it is in our dualistic world..He said:

    “Enjoyment is always accompanied by the fear of misery, social position is always accompanied by the fear of a downfall, wealth by the fear of loss, health by the fear of disease, honor by the fear of humiliation, power by the fear of foes, physical beauty by the fear of old age, scriptural erudition by the fear of fresh opponents, virtue by the fear of seduction, life by the fear of death..”

    Heal the split mind and you heal the fear..

  94. Peter – Yes – direct and indirect experience seem to work together, and complement one another, as you point out. There came a time when meditation by itself was not feeling like quite enough. Then Jill urged me to start sitting with Pamela, and everything opened up.

    Now the feeling is that meditation supports satsang and satsang supports meditation. They form a wonderful duo, working in harmony.

  95. Zorb,
    Speaking of gorgeous – your poems made me cry…Whenever one speaks the truth of one’s heart – through prose or poetry – or however it bursts forth – we all bathe in its beauty…This Truth of Self when recognized and shared unites us like nothing else can..
    Much love to you..and keep writing and sharing…

  96. Steve,
    Hopefully this video of Ramesh will answer your question:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cB7h2mtMQ0I

    Jill, I did read “A Duet of One” as well as several other books by Ramesh. I find him very clear although I can see why he may upset many as he does not beat around the bush and does not make enlightenment sound magical at all but I resonate with his way of seeing things.

  97. I think this advice that many NDErs give that you should live your passion and be yourself etc, is misleading. That is already what we do anyway. We do whatever we want to here. It does not lead to the ultimate freedom from clinging.

    As long as you think you are somebody who has their own thing going on, you are clinging, which will cause endless suffering.

  98. Meditation is a beautiful part of my experience. I never did follow a specific way of doing it such as counting breaths or candle gazing, it just drew me in and for a long period required of me that I sit twice a day but now it draws me in at different times such as after reading a paragraph from a particularly inspiring book or watching a gorgeous sunset.

    I was just thinking that from my experience here at batgap and other places discovered through internet how many of us are having similar experiences and yet, as my path has been without a human teacher and other seekers to interact with face to face, I am not presently aware of anyone in my immediate surrounding with whom I can truly exchange what we all are sharing here. Isn’t that ironic?

  99. Yes Steve and it feels painfully lonely to exist in the everyday world, working, interacting with others while all the while feeling that spaciousness within. It often feel as if I am losing my mind (how funny!).

  100. Hi guys,

    Just wanted to share this with you. After exchanging here this morning abour Ramesh and life’s great sense of humor, I decided to step out with my husband and simply enjoy our Sunday. A couple of block away from home we came to a tiny yard sale, no big deal. My husband always in search of tools and fishing gears suggested we stop and look and so we did. I approac tiny box filled with some books and decided to look through them onl to find a brand new, never before read book entitled “Consciousness Speaks” by none other than Ramesh with a great big picture of him on the cover. I just started laughing and told the couple having the sale that I knew exactly why I had decided to drop by there today. We left waving at each other as if old friends and I bought Ramesh’s book for $1.00.

    Then we headed to an antique place where I saw an apron with the inscription “When We Make Plans, God Laughs”. What a beautiful day!

    I see I have some reading to catch up on here. Will be back after dinner. Ciao! 🙂

  101. Padre, I love the Adya quote on aloneness! Tell me more on entitification.

    Dom, “the only way out is through”, this makes so much sense!

    Jan Frazier, in one of her articles entitled “The uselessness of trying to rise above” says something quite similar. Here she is talking about grief after the loss of someone dear but this is true as well in other situations such as loneliness, fear etc.

    ” Not minding doesn’t mean the absence of grief. It means you don’t mind the grief. You allow it to enfold you. You bow to the reality that the person is gone. You don’t waste energy on wishing it were otherwise, escaping into a headful of useless if-onlys, or taking refuge in consoling ideas that blunt the terrible pain of loss.”

    “When it’s raining, let it rain. When there is sorrow, be sad. Do not seek refuge in the prospect of a sunny day, or in the picture of the loved one in heaven. Be real with yourself.”

  102. Touv,
    That was interesting finding Ramesh’s book a few blocks away…Synchronicity is a hallmark of the awakening consciousness..

    Just wondering where you live – what part of the world ? cause there has to be a sangha somewhere near by unless you’re on a desert island..might be nice to have ongoing spiritual support other than just batgap…

    I know that Wayne Liquorman who carries on Ramesh’s teaching travels all over the US Canada and Europe…He recently opened Russia to the non-dual teaching..

  103. Jill,
    I live in Florida but for reasons unknown it seems so far that the teacher within wants me to do the work on my own. I have tried several times before to reach out to various groups in different countries but I keep getting the unmistakable message that mine seems to be for the moment at least a solitary path requiring lots of silence and aloneness. It feels as if things unfold in a carefully planned manner in a loving and careful way. If it is meant to be, it will be right?

  104. Yes – I understand Touv– only brought it up cause you had said earlier that you felt alone with it..no one around to share with – but it seems to be unfolding just fine..and we’re all here at batgapia..whenever you feel like chatting..
    love to you..

  105. Dom, to me, what you wrote and what I wrote are one and the same, isn’t that great!

    Jill, I do feel that all is unfolding as it should and I am grateful for all at batgap and know I can always come here. It is just that it would be fantastic to be able to exchange face to face with someone who believes as I do that nothing takes precedence over what we discuss here now. Thanks for always being there.

  106. Beautiful pointing Zorb – as it comes from your own experience of Self…No map it’s true but it does seem to unfold – once the opening is created – as Adya points out – along certain lines..

    .I have found in working with many over the years that creative types seem closer to this to begin with..those that feel…closer than those who rely on the mind….Before ‘officially’ waking up my husband used to keep falling into it spontaneously while painting..

    As you know, being a poet – the creative process requires a surrender of it’s own..and has a flexibility inherent in it…Something is allowed to open – and that something is creative intelligence ItSelf..

  107. Thanks Jill and Night Lily,
    Yes, what you suggest rings true and will give it some time. Definitely some things lurking somewhere to be let go, most elusive though!
    And Touvino – I have only met one person face to face who I have been able to talk to about this so far since an awakening. I went to a meeting once but it did not feel right for me. But the internet Sangha is calling!
    I borrowed some old books from my mum years ago but never really got into them at the time as they did not make much sense. Then during a dark period last year I found one of the books – World Within the Mind by H.P. Shastri. A perfect little highlight summary of the Yoga Vasishtha. I could not believe it when I started reading it- it blew me away and I knew something was at work for me to find this at that time. I was buzzing and laughing at the crazyness and the fact that my mum must have been interested in this stuff too. I still have not spoken about it even to her…I might have to change that now I mention it!

  108. Snow – eloquently stated from one who understands the creative process…I would only add that like the creative unfolding, the spiritual process involves a trust of the unknown – a not knowing – an allowing for things to emerge as they will…

    Mike – You bring up a good point in terms of many creative types appearing quite egocentric in their private lives…but we’re just saying that DURING the process itself – there is an absorption – a drawing in of energy -a stepping aside of ego..a timelessness..So maybe this dropping in is not happening consistently – maybe the artist is tortured at other times – but when creating – the portal into spaciousness is apparently open..

  109. Jill, there was a period when I was learning to paint and invariably, I would find things in my paintings that I knew darn well I would never have been able to draw on my own and I looked forward to turning my paintings sideways and upside down to find what masterpiece had shown up.

    Al, Wouldn’t it be wonderful to be able to share all this with your mother!

  110. He walked into the Art Store to get a specific tube of paint, the clerk said ‘oh you use oils?’, he said ‘oh no! I’m not an artist, it’s for my daughter’.
    The clerk laughed and said ‘oh but we’re all artists, my dear’. 😉

    I have to disagree about putting people in categories, hard for one may not be for another, what one thinks is hard or easy, is only a projection.

  111. I’ll accept the idea that psychological factors play a role in the cause of disease. The difficulty lies in quantifying those factors. However, the role of genetics as a causative factor in disease is greatly overestimated by the public simply because folks would rather continue eating meat & dairy – coffee – soft drinks, skipping exercise, not sleeping enough and not getting enough sun. So one often hears the claim, “It’s bad genes.” This is also a useful belief system for the pharmaceutical industry which is pouring millions into drugs that will address these genetic factors. I’m not saying medical miracles don’t happen but cancers and a host of other diseases wouldn’t be an issue if folks would simply clean up diet and lifestyle.

  112. Thanks Rick, Anita
    I heard Anita tell her story prior but quite enjoyed some of the points brought out further along – about fear and suffering, why we try to control, why we hurt others and what ends all of this.

    One small point I’d just raise about meditation. Anita is slightly off there, seeing meditation as a means to get where she feels she can already be without it. Many people who awaken stop for similar reasons. Rather than seeing meditation as a means to get there, it’s better to see it as a means to culture the vehicle. The settling give an opportunity for the development of the subtle body to allow a much fuller experience of life to unfold, beyond awakening to our inner nature. Igor talked about this in his interviews, for example. That’s a development that can go well past most peoples understanding of what we’re capable of.

  113. wow…i had thought to glance at a few comments before listening to interview…and now, hours later…am dizzy from all the conversation. amazed at all the energy put forth…how thoughtful and articulate most commenters are. since i have not been a participant in these exchanges, and gather that there are many ‘regulars’ who seem to know each other quite well, i have a question for you, JILL. you respond quite often to posts and speak w/a voice of ‘authority,’ and you make reference to your working w/many ppl…so i’m wondering if you are a teacher, or have some connection to rick/batgap the puts you in a “special” position to address comments/concerns expressed on this site? i resonate w/what you have to say. it just stands out to me as having a more authoritative flavor than others posters…and i’m curious. to EVERYONE…i appreciate the depth of sharing.

  114. Samruda
    Glad you resonate – If you hear that voice of Self speaking- you must have already recognized it within…same Self..
    No self definitions here in terms of ‘teacher’ – dropped that label a while ago…but do work privately with whoever shows up.. to help clarify experiences and lend support….
    Yes friend of Rick’s – came aboard last year to support the site in whatever way possible..brought some teacher friends to it for interviews and post whenever the spirit moves me..
    Glad you came aboard to batgapia- it’s a wonderful community so feel free to jump in…it’s like a little sangha..and no one bites – well almost no one –
    You can enter the dreamscape at any point at any time whenever it interests you…the more the merrier..

  115. Thank you, Anita for your overflowing heart and sincere presence and love. Listening to you speak is a huge heart opening. Deeply enlivening, here and now. Laurie

  116. I feel so deeply fortunate to live in a time where these interviews are possible. What a valuable and profound gift you give to use with these interviews Rick. Overwhlemed in gratitude. Thank you!!!!! Laurie

  117. Thank you Anita, for being so fully merged in the complete one love and simultaneously aware of this human existence in which the separateness longs for its return. The beautiful tension of opposites so fully expressed by your being, your heart, and your articulating. Your way of simply being who you are invites us all back to this one love… a transmission of the one love is who you are. Thank you! Laurie

  118. Wonderful & grounded in the reality of life.
    Fear is indeed the bugbear! Loved the genuine approach to what is really so simple at the end of the day.

    Bernard

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