113. Andrée Morgana

Andrée MorganaAndrée is the Founder of a nonprofit called the Hayehwatha Institute and a project called The Best of Mount Shasta. She has been a Spiritual Teacher for 44 years. For 20 years Andrée was a full time teacher of the Transcendental Meditation Program and introduced thousands of people to the experience of consciousness and meditation. Each year for 12 years she went to Brazil and studied their spiritual traditions to see into the spiritual realms and develop relationships with advanced Cosmic Souls.

For Andrée, the exposure to the experience of consciousness led to new avenues of discovery. With refinement of perception, within the unboundedness of consciousness, along with the assistance of two Cosmic Souls, Hayehwatha and Vovó Anamalia, Andrée began to observe the details of the universe and beyond. Andrée feels this is the next level of experience to unfold within our culture; for people to observe their origin, history and destiny with reference to the life of the universe and beyond. What is known as the life we live on the earth is a small portion of who we are.

Andrée lives in Mount Shasta, California where she provides workshops and private sessions with Hayehwatha and Vovó Anamalia, as well as puts on The Best of Mt Shasta Conference & Festival each summer.

For more information:


Vovó Anamalia

Interview recorded 3/3/12

Video and audio below. Audio also available as a Podcast.

110 thoughts on “113. Andrée Morgana

  1. Sounded interesting until the Mt. Shasta stuff kicked in, moving galaxies, etc.
    Very esoteric, almost unlikely but more power to those that have the guts to follow these medium practices.

  2. I’m with ‘ya cyberv. As Amma often says, “we should always have the attitude of a beginner.” Why? Because in the big picture, we are. You’ve probably heard my mention of the 16 kalas, or levels of evolution, outlined in the Yoga Vasishtha. Humans are said to occupy kalas 5-8, or maybe 4-8, with the greatest saints being in the 8th, and then 8 above that which aren’t represented on this planet.

    Here’s a nice quote from Adyashanti addressing the point that people with partial awakenings often conclude that their awakening is complete:

    “Not all awakening is the same. There are different qualities of awakening. Not everybody awakens to the same thing. The idea that everyone awakens to the same thing is sort of a myth. A misunderstanding. It’s actually quite rare that someone awakens to the whole of Reality all at once. Usually we get a piece of it. Of course any piece of the whole feels like the whole. If you bump into any aspect of reality, every aspect feels complete, because in a certain sense, every aspect is complete. So reality always comes with it. A felt sense of completeness. Of totality. That unequivocal sense of “This is it”. That’s how it feels. And also that can lead to certain misunderstandings. We often awaken to certain aspects of reality. Rather than awaken to the whole of it all at once. The deception is that each aspect feels like the whole. And so you may just get attached to an aspect and think it’s the whole. See what I mean? It’s like getting hold of a foot of an elephant and thinking you’ve got hold of the whole elephant.”

  3. Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj;
    “You may believe in whatever you like and if you act on your belief you will get the fruits of it”

  4. Thanks Rick and Andree. An interesting adventure to follow.

    First – a comment on witnessing sleep. Witnessing sleep is a non-stop continuity of awareness. For there to be experiences and memories during sleep, some aspect of mind has to be awake. This isn’t really deep sleep. The key is more the clarity of recognition that pure consciousness is unbroken and continuous rather than an “experience” of being “awake” in sleep – although there may be a tendency to that at first.

    I quite enjoyed the sharing of the old stories. I also found the way this came to her to be unique. For me, it started with outside of the universe, then went up from there. It’s pretty astonishing how vast our creation is. Later, I followed the process down to the physical. A little backwards in some ways but in others, it was highest first.

    I can’t overestimate the importance of that establishment of conscious awareness /the fort before one gets into the secondary stuff. Otherwise its so, so much easier to get lost or sidetracked.

    What she studied is certainly a far deeper exploration of mediumship than I’ve ever encountered. But I have to say I have major concerns with anything that takes someone over like that. Being conscious is superior but it can be quite hard on the physiology. I’m glad to hear it’s only done periodically. While I can appreciate that the vessel can get in the way/ filter the message I would certainly favour a more ‘conversational’ approach to sharing with other beings. Essentially being an intermediary or messenger. From an awake place, that should be more possible.

    It was interesting to hear the differentiation and organization they teach of elemental forces and what might be described as the managers.

    The process used to “journey” people is interesting. I saw a tape of something vaguely similar done by Genpo Roshi. He walked people through the “voices” of incrementally higher states. As it got high, many dropped off. But a few managed to get glimpses of quite high states. It was of course very temporary, but interesting to see. My concern there was giving someone a taste of something they had no means of returning to.

    I’d also agree on Sat Yuga. Our western view of history is way off and totally underestimates what is possible. Just as it’s difficult to conceive of a state/stage of consciousness more than one above our own, so too our idea of what such an age is like is compromised. What we call “civilization” is just one step above the dark ages. The development of language and then writing actually followed the fall of consciousness. It was a devolution necessitated by the loss of awareness. (that’s why the worlds proto-languages all showed up around the same time, fully developed) An example of this is the Vedas. It wasn’t necessary to memorize them when they were widely accessible. Then an oral tradition was adapted to keep the flame alive. Then Veda Vyasa was obliged to write them down.

    Thanks again for an interesting and curious journey on a very different path.

  5. @Steve, Snow, & ising Please note that Andree was very solilidly abiding in the Self before she embarked on all this. Not only that, but seeing everything as the Self – a much more advanced state. As Maharishi used to say, it’s fine to explore the territory but first capture the fort that commands it. So she had done that, and was moved to explore.

  6. @Steve I think Andree would agree, as would the Vedic sages, that the whole universe is a play of mind (maybe cosmic mind), but that understanding and experience didn’t deter the ancient sages from having all sorts of adventures. The scriptures are full of stories. For instance, here’s one about Shankara, the founder of Advaita Vedanta, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adi_Shankara
    After debating for over fifteen days, with Maṇḍana Miśra’s wife Ubhaya Bhāratī acting as referee, Maṇḍana Miśra accepted defeat.[16] Ubhaya Bhāratī then challenged Adi Shankara to have a debate with her in order to ‘complete’ the victory. She asked him questions related to sexual congress between man and woman – a subject in which Shankaracharya had no knowledge, since he was a true celibate and sannyasi. Sri Shankracharya asked for a “recess” of 15 days. As per legend, he used the art of “para-kaya pravesa” (the spirit leaving its own body and entering another’s) and exited his own body, which he asked his disciples to look after, and psychically entered the dead body of a king. The story goes that from the King’s two wives, he acquired all knowledge of “art of love”. The queens, thrilled at the keen intellect and robust love-making of the “revived” King, deduced that he was not their husband, as of old. The story continues that they sent their factotums to “look for the lifeless body of a young sadhu and to cremate it immediately” so that their “king” (Shankracharya in the king’s body) would continue to live with them. Just as the retainers piled Shankracharaya’s lifeless corpse upon a pyre and were about to set fire to it, Shankara entered his own body and regained consciousness. Finally, he answered all questions put to him by Ubhaya Bhāratī; and she allowed Maṇḍana Miśra to accept sannyasa with the monastic name Sureśvarācārya, as per the agreed-upon rules of the debate.[17]

  7. I think babies have a rudimentary mind and their brains aren’t fully developed yet they are there looking outof those two big eyes and see who knows what.

  8. Hi Steve et al
    Yes, one can perceive the infinite prior to recognizing oneself as that. One simply needs a fairly clear experience of transcending in meditation. In fact, the idea is you experience it often enough and the opportunity is there to recognize oneself as that. That’s why they recommend effortless meditation in the interview. That brings the experience.

    Quoting Ramana in relation to this interview is largely taking an opposite position. One should not confuse a teaching of our pure nature (although they briefly touch on that) with a specific form of exploring nature. Once one is awake, the choice for how to be in the world expands markedly. It’s also important to recognize the process of awakening. The recognition of Maya as illusion is a characteristic of the duality of Self realization or Cosmic Consciousness. Inner Self, outer illusion is a duality. This is NOT advaita or non-duality. Non-duality is a later stage where outer illusion is recognized as none other than the Self. Then there is unity. There’s a lot of nonsense about this with people confusing the understanding of different states and blending teaching that doesn’t belong together. Some also confuse inner unity with advaita. This is why understanding the process is important.

    I can also note that Maya means To Build. It does NOT mean illusion. Maya has 3 forms, depending on the degree of purification. When tamas (inertia) is dominant it acts as a covering. Rajas, it acts as an illusion. Sattva, it acts as a means of coming home, a ladder of knowledge. At this stage creation is seen as Lila, the play. This is Shankara’s teaching, the guy who taught non-duality.

    Another thing to understand is that creation is in layers. When we’re identified with the individual ego, we experience just a local mind. As the awareness expands, it comes to encompass group minds (local, cultural , etc), the mind of the universe, the cosmic mind and the divine mind. When in a more local mind, there is outside territory. When in a larger mind, it is within. Even in universe (often called “universal”), all of the universe is within. It’s also useful to understand that mind is simply the surface of self-aware consciousness. So yeah, galaxies etc can be experienced outside self or within self depending on where we’re viewing from. When within, it is nothing to move a galaxy.

    Note that ego (individuation) and mind are associated so there can be said to be egos for each layer of mind. eg: cosmic ego. As the world arises from consciousness through mind (then divides into senses and elements, etc – see Sankhya) we can say ego is involved in creation but make sure you understand which ego is involved with what. Personal ego tends to take credit for things its not doing.

  9. Snow –
    You make a good point but one must be very careful in looking at channeled material. Some of it is drivel. Some of it seems to deteriorate over time. Some of it seems to be motivated from some effort to control or other questionable thing. There are some famous sources that use names that imply their source is other than it is. And so on. This is a place where it’s difficult for a listener to verify the actual source.

    For myself, I prefer well established cross-referenced sources. But some channeled material is interesting and potentially useful.

    Mediumship is similar – it depends on the clarity of the medium and the quality and motivation of the source.

    The lower levels of the “other side” have a range of beings that is greater than the range of humans: greater evil, greater good. Our ignorance is not a virtue in these matters.

  10. CV – when first awakened, someone may find themselves in a “dry” detachment where nothing makes an impression or has much interest. This occurs when there is silence and peace but the bliss aspect may not have unfolded. Also, they’ve not had the further decent into the heart where love, compassion, etc unfold.

    If the person thinks this is it, I’m awake, they can get stuck there. But this is not the highest value by any means. Its just the kindergarten of awakening.

    if it properly unfolds, the awakening becomes embodied and moves out into the world. As Andree exemplifies, the range this may take is remarkable. Ironically, the unified person becomes more unique in the fullness of their expression.

  11. Beautiful Steve – noticed @ 7:14 on, the clouds appear to outline the shape of a face.

  12. thanks Andree & Rick for a very enjoyable dialogue… very expansive… and brings back memories of my own… but different experiences during my Maharishi years… which influenced my life profoundly…

    and this is yet another wonderful intro to what i call … spiritual evolution beyond the human earthly body…

    in Yogananda’s “Autobiography of a Yogi” we are introduced to similar ideas… in the stories of Babaji the eternal MahaAvatar… & Sri Yukteswar who resurrected to tell Yogananda how his spiritual evolution is progressing… on a more ethereal planet… and here is an excerpt from an article that may be of interest along these lines… http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j21/babaji.asp?page=1 … [i offer this not as an absolutely correct teaching... because i really do not know... but hopefully as consciousness/awareness expanding stories]

    “Sri Yukteswar, Yogananda’s teacher, said that Babaji’s attainment was inconceivable. It didn’t fit the paradigm of enlightenment as he knew it, which is moksha, liberation. The goal of moksha is very characteristic of North India, which is largely Vedantic. The Northern yogis look at the Siddhas of South India and scratch their heads. ‘Why would anyone want to stay on this physical plane indefinitely? They must have some bad karma.’

    “When I started going to India thirty years ago, that is the response I got from even great swamis in the North—people like Yogi Bhajan and Swami Muktananda. I met Swami Muktananda in 1973, in a private interview, and I asked him, ‘ What’s the difference between your yoga and the yoga of the Siddhas and Babaji?’ And he asked me about some of these Siddhas, and I mentioned that they were immortals. And he said, ‘It’s impossible for anyone to become immortal.’

    “This is a very common difficulty that people who have been brought up in the Advaita Vedantic tradition have, because for them the world is something that is illusory or really not worth much—a big distraction. But the Siddhas saw that the world is divine, and that it’s all in a process of evolution—whether it be inert matter, or animals, or whatever. We’re all part of this process of evolution.

    “So when I train people, I show them not only how to go up into spiritual enlightenment, but I show them how to transform themselves intellectually, mentally, vitally, and physically. It’s a complete transformation. Now this is a very tall order, and I tell people right in the introductory lecture that if their goal is simply to go to heaven or to find some moksha, there are lots of easier paths. This is not an easy path. It’s a long process. It takes many, many births, but the rewards are much more complete. I mean, do you think that the cells of the physical body are interested in your enlightenment?”

    perhaps this is part of what Amma means when she says… “earth is not our real home” …

    om hrim sivaya namaha

  13. Sad to see someone who practiced TM for years, taught it, and sat with a powerful being such as Maharishi, become so distracted…The road to liberation is in the direction of Simple – not more complicated….I consider this that Andre speaks of – a side trip..more mind stuff to chew on..no more relevant than developing siddhi powers..When we truly awaken, the mind is not searching for more and more spiritual experiences or any kind of power..It has dissolved into the heart of hearts – the Self…and the Experiencer is no more..We have all that we need when we meet Reality…We are at Rest..

  14. @Jill Siddhis were a major part of the “powerful being” Maharishi’s teaching. He emphasized not only awakening to Reality, but then exploring how we might apply that awakening.

  15. “When we are awake, where is the “we”?”

    @ Steve — If you haven’t already, you might check out Timothy Conway’s responses (in the comments section) to some of the questions that arose in response to Rick’s interview with him.

    The basic point, as I understood him articulating it, is that always there is a paradoxical dance between Absolute and more Relative levels of functioning. Once established in Truth, we understand our relative appearance as a human being to be just that: an appearance, illusory, every-shifting — enlivened by a kind of vitality (Shakti) which is how the Divine manifests within our human realm of functioning. It doesn’t exist as a separate, permanent egoic entity — and yet it does appear, and function in a whole variety of wondrous ways.

    To deny this Shiva/Shakti dance — in favor of some abstract notion of being completely absent as a human being — is (according to Mr. Conway, at least, and I tend to agree) a mistake, a trap to be avoided ….


  16. hmmm …. imagining a world in which all human beings have realized themselves completely …. and doubting (perhaps still hopelessly caught in delusion) that what this would look like would be 7 billion human forms, each sitting on a couch, at the foot of a mountain, doing nothing much but emanating That 🙂

    Is God so lacking in creativity that She would express her Infinite Creativity in one way and one way only?

    yes, the conceptual distinction between Absolute & Relative exists only from a path perspective. From the view of fruition, the two are seen as always having been non-two and not-one. As the great Buddhist sage Shantarakshita puts it:

    “As it is said, the path in which the conventional and the ultimate truths are united, without any assertion of their being either identical or different, constitutes the great vehicle. An individual who adopts this approach can be properly called a practitioner of the Mahayana, and in such a case the name is being used correctly.”

    Just because “seeking” by a presumed “separate me” has been exhausted, come to a grateful halt, does not mean that creative exploration and celebration of our paradoxical being-here-together-and-as-One also ceases ….

    just my point of view, of course: Light reflected through one facet of Indra’s Net ….

  17. Great stuff Steve..you’re headed in the right direction..I’m glad you’re speaking from your own experience and not from other people’s take on Reality…I like that confidence..

    Rick – A yogi is not a jhani – We can have many powers and still not come to full rest..ever read Paul Bruntons – A Search in Sacred India – written back in the 30’s? – THE book on spiritual searches – where he searched far and wide for Truth– went to every yogi and wandering sadhu and siddha he could find…long story short…last chapter – he ended up finally coming to rest with Ramana..That’s how it’s been for many of us….

    Having the full blown Kundalini experience which happened here 16 years ago, does not necessarily result in Self Realization – the pretty pictures fade -when the shakti completes it’s run – and then what are we left with..

    Just to clarify, self realization or established in Being is NOT the abidance that the non-dual people are speaking of….
    self realization – small s -as MMY spoke of it, is a marker – a precursor to the non dual awakening perhaps, but Self Realization as Ramana and the non dualists speak of it, is all inclusive (of all states)..It’s beyond all states – prior to manifestation and beyond it..This is an important distinction to make..

    Its a popular misconception amongst TMers that the non-dual realization is the same as Maharishi’s designation of abidance, and therefore halfway up the mountain..it’s a semantic difference in Ramana’s languaging and Maharishis..

    For sure, Vedanta or non-dualism is not for everyone..It is the final teaching – as there is no teaching…no practices – no higher or lower to consider..-We come to it when we have been disillusioned with life – perhaps suffering greatly – when are souls are weary – having realized that there is nothing that either the material OR the spiritual world can give us that will truly satisfy…It is the end of all experiencing as it is the end of the Experiencer..

    Brahman is the nothingness AND everythingness of Being – there from the start in the non dual awakening – not at the end of a linear map – and it’s not a cold dank final rest unless the heart has not blossomed…but rather a full and loving existence…

    Once The SELF reveals ITSELF and unfolds naturally, we don’t want for anything…We ARE everything..no separation and this is more than enough..It is fulfillment and we fall to our knees in gratitude..

    Then if it’s meant to be, we come back into the world – into the body, and serve in whatever role is given to us…often publicly supporting and clarifying or working behind the scenes..but always coming from Love..a Love that is not personal…We are undivided -living the Absolute/Relative paradox seamlessly..joyously..

    If we want power, and flash and dash, it’s there for the asking and many so called spiritual teachers will provide us with it – but how many lifetimes does it take to put away childish things…The Divine reads hearts -so it’s good to know what we really want – cause it gives us what we ask for..always..

    If the ego mind is still active – if it hasn’t surrendered to the Grace that lives in the heart – that is here and now – both unmanifest and in form – and is still searching and grasping for more ‘experiences’ -still involved in the field of dreams that Maya can provide endlessly, we have not awakened to our True Self….

    Papaji used to say that MORE, BETTER and DIFFERENT spiritually speaking, were the three gates to hell…

  18. Hi Anatol
    Thanks for another memory. I recall reading that article in the magazine itself, then years later seeking it out online and downloading it.

    Among the awake, there are those who choose to stay and help after the karma is done (lifespan is complete). And there are those who’s recognition of the body as a structure in consciousness becomes so thorough, so embodied, that the body becomes what might be called a state of mind, placed and produced as required. One just has to reflect on the later part of the Yoga Sutras to see examples of the potential.

    As others have mentioned here, the recent tradition of spiritual progress being made through withdrawal from life has given us few examples of fully awake people in full expression in the world. The variety of that will be astonishing.

    Earth is the Playroom of our home, but we have to come all the way home before we can see it that way.

  19. Snow – with a name like that you must be “back east”. We don’t do that on the “wet” coast 😉

  20. Right back at ya Steve – blessings to you – and thanks a million for the Platters..they don’t make em that smooth anymore..

  21. Oh Chuckee – thank you for the understanding..Sometimes I feel like I’m talking to the wind…I love the yogi story as well – never heard that one -perfect adjunct to the discussion..and thanks as well for the Flamingos..I could say I don’t remember that era – but – ahem- I cannot tell a lie..loved it..

  22. So the buddha is walking down a narrow mountain path, steep cliffs on either side: beautiful view, though rather treacherous.

    Two of his dearest friends are walking, single-file, in front of him. At one point he notices one of his friends veering off the path to the right, dangerously close to the drop-off. So — out of kindness and love for his friend — he says, “Friend, bear to your left!” At which point his friend, trusting buddha’s words, bears to the left, and so comes back to safety on the path, grateful for the kind words of advice, so perfectly suited to his unique circumstances.

    However, the second friend, who already had been veering in the opposite direction, i.e. a bit to the left, assumed these words to be for him also — and so, following the same advice — veered even more extremely to the left, and fell off of the cliff to his death.

    I have no idea what this means. Or, in fact, if it ever really happened to the buddha and his two dear friends 🙂

  23. Mila – LOL – enjoyed the creative story – and I think both of Buddha’s friends were served by hearing the Truth spoken, don’t you?.. Maybe the one who fell off the cliff was actually better off than the one who came back to safety..cause he went farther and faced his own death..who knows..I’ll bet they both got just what they needed though….Now if you had said they veered to the right and became Republicans, then I would have worried..

  24. what the Buddha story says to me… we have to be very careful in giving advice to others… first we must determine their frame of reference… simplest example i can think of… a Californian wants to go to Colorado… and is told to go east… then a NYer also want to go to Colorado… and is told to go west… east/west opposite directions… same destination…

    and frame of reference of mind is a very complicated thing… best to have a Genuine Guru…one who can actually see your thoughts… even Francis Lucille recommends a guru…

  25. I so agree Anatol- that most need a guide on the journey..as there are pitfalls.. They don’t call it The Razor’s Edge for nothing..but a guide is different than a guru..That era seems to be rapidly fading…

    The teachers teaching today like Francis and Pamela and Neelam and Mooji are not gurus..nor did they have gurus – just ones who had awakened and traversed the path before them, and acted as pointers toward Reality..

    And yes it is personal when we come to sit with a final teacher – as it should be – the advice is more specific -but reading minds is not essential..Insight, sensitivity and heart suffice..because most of the work is done by the transmission of Silence..

    Alan Watts said to me many years ago when my father (fortunately) dragged me to a lecture at Columbia U..He said, young lady – ‘NEVER EVER put a teacher on a pedestal, not only because you want to create intimacy rather than distance, but because they will surely fall off that pedestal, as they are both human and divine…good advice which I never forgot..

    We go to a guru until we are able to discriminate the real from the unreal – until the Self (satguru) begins to manifest in our awareness – then we are ready to meet a teacher at a more equal level..who just presents as a friend -for the final walk Home..

  26. Good stuff Steve on the jnani/yogi thing…Thanks for posting that..good confirmation…

    Only point I would add to the article is that Ramana’s Realization was not just inclusive of Jagrat, Svapna and Sushupti (waking sleeping and dreaming) but all other states as well including GC, UC and BC…The sage or jnani is beyond and before all states..

    I think there is a lot of confusion about the two types of paths and realizations..the yogis and the jnanis..which I’m sure make some of the interviews perplexing to the listener..One guy is swinging from the trees wearing robes and garlands and the next one is sitting there in their house drinking beer doing the wash…I exaggerate…but you get the point…

    Both paths can of course interface at some point..there are yogis who later became sages..It just doesn’t ‘necessarily’ happen that way when Shiva meets Shakti…One can have the full chakra experience quite powerfully and still not come to Brahman..to rest in the heart of the Self..The mind can still be left alive and spinning after the fireworks have died down…

    Speaking of yogis and siddhis, I think the greatest of all Siddhis and the only one that ever interested me, is the one Ramana passed on and is still passing on- – and that is the power to Silence the Mind and awaken others..just by mere Presence..

    What matters is that whatever path one is on, that it ultimately ends in Reality..

    Sno – always a beautiful summation of how it is…I so enjoy your posts..Sometimes though, I find it’s helpful to people to break it all down (horrible I know) because even though it’s the Truth being spoken, unless that Truth of how things really are is being experienced by the seeker, the words remain up there in the ether…
    At some point, if allowed, the Absolute understanding, makes it’s way down into the body where it can then serve in a more accessible capacity..

  27. Sno – .
    What I meant was, and failed to convey – is that if we speak from the standpoint of ‘Embodiment’ of the Absolute Oneness, – if our understanding has filtered down into the DNA so to speak- I find it’s easier for the listener to grasp the essence of what we’re saying – than if it is spoken more abstractly from the perch.. It’s the same Reality just spoken from a different position..

  28. and beautiful poetry it is Sno – After reading your earlier posts, I was thinking of Adya’s ‘qualities of awakening’ tape..which you may be familiar with – and which speaks to the natural unfoldment of This..

    how the understanding blossoms on the vertical axis -and then filters down into the body where it is enlivened with Love – more horizontal..Then further descending into the gut allowing it to infiltrate every fiber of Being – leaving behind any apparent separation between any of the parts ..which he calls embodiment..

    It’s our spiritual destiny to proceed in this direction – and we all are -as the three knots of conditioned existence are undone…May take one lifetime or many….The embodiment level is where teaching naturally comes forth…cause the will has been thoroughly relinquished..and then Grace uses you to say and do what it wants said and done..

    For me, ‘the landing’ came through a deep surrender born out of tremendous grief and suffering- For other friends who were wiser – who didn’t wait to be bonked over the head – just a simple fervent prayer sent hurtling through space to whomever might be listening – asking to be taken all the way down and in..was enough..

  29. @Steve: Doing good you affectionate big puppy. Spring is in the air and that’s pure grace in my books. .

  30. Just got back from a walk and that same gorgeous full moon shining here.. Music and Nature – can’t beat em. Off to an early sleep – dead tired!

  31. Hi Gerry and Chuckee and Steve – beautifully said by all….I was just speaking relatively to make a point…words fail…
    Of course..how could the day dream be any different than the nightly dream..no beginning or end to either as you all well know…
    and when I speak of paths – again – I’m speaking relatively – there is a path and yet there isn’t -depends on the perspective..
    and when we talk of a path ending in Reality – I was referring to the earlier discussions about hopefully not getting lost in side trips…of going in the direction of Truth and landing in the SELF where we began…
    Love you all..

  32. Dear Friends: A mountain of angst came up lately. Tried going around it, chipping away at it, tying a chain around it and hauling it out to sea, blowing it up, but couldn’t get rid of it. Giving up, I wrapped it in a red ribbon and gave it to Self saying that I knew it wasn’t a very pretty gift but perhaps it could find something useful in it. When looking now all I see is a red ribbon flapping in the breeze. Thought I’d share this with all of you – as you’ve been so supportive. Beautiful sunny day out there – going out to walk lightly in it.

  33. Oh Ising – that is sooo good to hear…You offered it all up to Grace..realizing that the illusory ego is powerless to change anything..
    Any time we make a genuine offering and are willing to let our higher Will take care of things, we are relieved of the burden..
    And now even if the angst or fear or sadness again arises, and it may – you won’t be fooled by it..You’ll see what you just saw – that any human problem really has no power over us..unless we hold on tight – so you’ll again let it all dissolve back into the Self quite naturally ..until this becomes a way of life…The Self is the fire of Truth that burns all that is not real..
    Much Love to you..

  34. And Love to you Jill – Yes to all you said. Radiant day out there even the “black snow” piled by the roadsides is shimmering like a starry night.

  35. You should never doubt your expression Chuckee – It’s perfect…we’re on the same page – so naturally what each other says, rings true…the same SELF speaking to ITSELF..
    Yeah the mind stuff gives me a headache..I think we had enough of that in TM…I can’t even process it lately..
    Glad you understand that sometimes the Self speaks relatively – The One wants to be flexible when speaking publicly..but privately, it’s geared to the need of the specific listener..
    love to you..and now gotta get up take a walk and get off the comp before the rear end goes completely numb…

  36. @Snow, I would trust the body wisdom on this one. I used to experience horrible intrusions of pain on the left side of the head (no physical problem) and would each time address it and ask for just a little at a time knowing it would be too much for the body to bear. It always listened. That heavy mountain of stuff that surfaced, I believe, was the rest of it tho there was no physical pain this time. Trust in the process. Love to you.

  37. “What is REAL?” asked the Rabbit one day, when he and the Skin Horse were lying side by side near the nursery fender…
    “Real isn’t how you are made,” said the Skin Horse. “It’s a thing that happens to you..When a child loves you for a long, long time, not just to play with, but REALLY loves you, then you become Real.”
    “Does it hurt?” asked the Rabbit.
    “Sometimes,” said the Skin Horse, for he was always truthful.
    from The Velveteen Rabbit…

    Never an easy process Sno – but my heart is with you… much easier in the long run to let go than to hold on..but that can’t be forced..The body will fall into line…just as the mind and the heart did…natural process of Grace at work…although it can be far easier to surrender the heavy stuff in the Presence of a true teacher..This I know for sure..

    Like the Velveteen Rabbit, in order to come into our full joy, and find what is Real, we all need to be recognized and affirmed..We need to be accepted and appreciated..most important, we need to be seen with loving eyes and reflected back with warmth and enthusiasm..

    Psychologists such as Stephen Cope call this the narcissistic need for mirroring…It is considered a need almost as important as food and oxygen..The unconditional Love emanating from an enlightened one can provide that mirroring…Suffering on any level, is always Grace calling us Home….

    You don’t have to go it completely alone you know..There is so much support available now – Why not go see Elli in Canada for a few days retreat..and bask in the warmth of Ramana’s direct gaze..I’m willing to bet that the last of that pesky conditioning will fall away…..

  38. Snow-d… Just a note about the “hurts like hell” part. It’s not the leaving thats painful, nor the “heavy”, nor the surrender. The pain is from what is holding on, what doesn’t want change, what is resisting the leaving. As the surrendering gets deeper and the detachment more complete, that progressively eases until there it’s rare. In those rare cases, even if there is some pain, it is not “your” pain. It’s more just like another sensation of the environment. Like a biting wind, perhaps.

    It’s also good to remind oneself that each hunk of that release, each surrender is a deepening of being, an increase in quality of life, and clarity, and bliss. (aside from the occasional elephant stampede.) 😉

    The process is much more than worth it.

  39. Nature is our home,
    God in another form.
    Let’s love and protect,
    care and respect,
    the wonder of this world.

    Mother Nature, may our hearts rise
    in the beauty of creation,
    seeing God in one another,
    in the wind, the trees, the water.

    Every bird that sings, all living things,
    are nothing else but You.

    As part of the whole,
    we have to play our role,
    learning to feel,
    striving to heal
    the wounds of this world.

    Mother Nature, may our hearts rise
    in the beauty of creation,
    seeing God in one another,
    in the wind, the trees, the water.

    Every bird that sings, all living things,
    are nothing else but You.

    Nature only gives,
    sustaining all that lives.
    For us to survive,
    we need to strive
    to care for all of life.

    Mother Nature, may our hearts rise
    in the beauty of creation,
    seeing God in one another,
    in the wind, the trees, the water.

    Every bird that sings, all living things,
    are nothing else but You.


  40. Sno –
    In reading your description of your inner process, it dawned on me yesterday that it really sounds as though the Energy has been awakened from within…I’m speaking of the Mother’s Grace – that of the Kundalini Shakti..

    While the shakti is involved in all spiritual awakenings to some degree, when it has been ignited in some beings in a powerful way, it often involves a long drawn out process of purifying the chakras in a systematic manner…..’cyclically’ as you described..It also confers creative gifts which some like yourself have displayed ie., poetry art or musical genius etc..

    While not horrific, unless it is drugged or interfered with in some external way, the K can be quite disruptive to the life….and people who haven’t experienced the power of its full intention, tend to think it’s like the common spiritual process, and try to give remedies – practices or prescriptions – to ease it or direct it..but as you may know by now, none work…Once ignited, the Creative Intelligence has it’s own mind…it’s own timetable..it’s own unfoldment..

    I’m glad you are so trusting and accepting of the process and are surrendering more and more to its manifestations, because that’s the only way to be…I kept trying to understand it – and kept bemoaning it -which just caused further suffering..

    My mentor at the time El Collie, wrote brilliantly on Mother Kundalini from her own direct experience and was a real support back in the day to many people around the world….Her newsletters which have now been posted by her husband since her passing, are on her website, Shared Transformation, and are full of insights as she went through the entire K experience starting when the energy rose in her at the age of 19…I always recommend people who are going through this inner transformation, to check out her site..She was a wonderful writer..clear as a bell..

    Only someone who has been through the entire process themselves can help support…all else is useless..Many gurus are out there now who claim expertise in calming the energy or re-directing it, and are charging big bucks – but I caution against that sort of thing…The less interference the better..and no one should charge for supporting people in this kind of crisis in my opinion, especially if they haven’t been through it themselves…cause they don’t know what they’re talking about..

    No one knows why some people go through a more lengthy and elaborate energetic process on the way to enlightenment, but it seems to be spontaneously happening to more and more people in recent years, and it’s causing a lot of confusion and distress..The energy brings up everything we’ve avoided either on the mental emotional or physical levels and it can be a nightmare for some..

    There are no simple fixes – ie, taking up specific breathing practices or adhering to special diets or even visiting Divine Mothers, as the energy once ignited, has got to run it’s course and come full circle…

    One can do some things to help if it’s felt to be overwhelming at times such as – stay away from medical interference and drugs of all kinds – ground oneself – do physical work – gardening – walking – dancing – stretching, etc, is good- eat pure food – and most of all, don’t indulge in meditation or spiritual practices …nothing that can stir up the energy even more..

    Coming to a final teacher, the Self in manifest form -can help soothe the overburdened system with the transmission of Silence – bring clarity on the experience, and help consciousness deepen into the peace and Love of the Self..to bring it to rest there..That’s what helped me…so that’s what I recommend when people feel ready to do that..

    From this vantage point, having come through the turbulent K years in one piece, I see the prolonged Kundalini experience manifesting in some bodies as an extraordinary process that may serve some evolutionary purpose…but who really knows…

    It was fascinating for what it conveyed to me, and for the blissful interludes and insights, yet I wouldn’t have chosen the siddha path as a means to awakening had I known what it actually entailed..and that it, in fact, didn’t actually lead to anything truly worthwhile.. but then again you don’t always get to choose..

    If the energy has been turned on spontaneously – full blast from within – I say then all you can do is endure, surrender, let IT do it’s thing and hope for the best…

    Muktananda once said ‘remember always that this energy isn’t the Universe attacking you, but that it’s God moving through you’..The attitude makes a difference…

    I wish you well my friend..and anyone else out there who is wrestling with an enlivened Mother K…

  41. ah… fond memories of listening to melodious sound of Maharishi’s voice… my approach was not to concentrate on words/meaning… but simply to allow sound or glance of those dark hypnotic eyes… to atune to M’s Presence… silence stillness… heart… enjoy…

    Maharishi Mahesh Yogi was asked by Dr Brian Josephson (Nobel Laureate in Physics) about the Nature of the Absolute on the 28th of July 1979. Part two of two… “Maharishi … graphically shows the Nature of the Absolute on paper. And he talks about the difference between Purusha and Prakriti.”

  42. interesting interview coming up with Robert Forman… excerpt from his book… “God save us from some bloodless ~ joy, joy, joy! ~ If we are after anything, we are after full-bodied freedom. … I want to be awake, utterly non-resistant, to pain and joy and love and loss and boredom and knowing and not-knowing, wide open to the full catastrophe that is the paradox of a whole, confusing human life.” (P. 198)

  43. Sno, sounds like you’re working on piercing that 5th chakra at the moment…Amazing that you visualize it in the mind as a hot sword…sounds accurate..The awakenings of each energy center are filled with heat and can be painful as well as exquisite as you said..
    In my counseling of K people over the years I’ve seen it all – some rushed to the ER thinking they were having heart attacks when the heart chakra was opening..it was so shocking and painful…so glad you have a high pain threshhold..

    The energy goes to clear wherever it’s needed…I once couldn’t eat solid food for 3 months – couldn’t swallow when the throat chakra was being opened…side benefit to that was losing weight – ha ha …

    Digestive nightmares went on for months with the 3rd chakra piercing..but the 6th was worst for me – massive headaches..so much pressure I used to sit and cry all night..thought I had a brain tumor..but then they disappeared mysteriously when the energy moved one fine day..

    And here I am still alive 20 years later – on the other side of it – so I can reassure you and your partner that this does have an end to it…have seen many go through it..Just be careful about being attached to any of it..as it prolongs the agony…take the witnessing view of everything..and don’t do any chemicals..of any kind..

    Over the long haul, when it finishes it’s run, paradoxically, the body is strengthened by it..I haven’t had a cold or flu or any serious illness since the K began back in the 80’s and feel and look younger than my age…It’s no walk in the park but eventually it all balances out..

    As you know, the less resistance the better..We can’t DO surrender but we can cease to resist..As Gangaji always says, any negative feeling fully felt, will dissipate, any positive feeling fully felt, will grow..

    Stay as strong as you are and maybe have your partner read up on El Collie’s K site or stock up on some books on the Kundalini and the chakra openings…to see that these kinds of energetic awakenings aren’t as uncommon today as they once were…

    By the way – a fully awakened 5th chakra results in great creativity, an awakened 4th, in healing abilities and true compassion, an awakened 6th in wisdom and intuition.. – so some benefit..The centers don’t open in any particular order either – and often open in pairs – 3 and 6 are closely associated, as are 2 and 5 and 4 and 7..

    One thing I can’t say for sure, is that all this will necessarily end in Self Realization..It didn’t for me or anyone I know…It ended here with an explosion in the head yes – – and a knowing I wasn’t the body – a death of the ‘I’ thought – but I still was not at peace…I was dissociated from the body and there was much fear and misunderstanding…

    I still had to come down to rest in the Self..to find that peace and love that only meeting the Self can provide..Not everyone lands there…I was fortunate that Ramana, through Pamela -showed up at the perfect time to help put things right.

  44. Excellent comments Jill.
    I would clarify that the piercing experience is of the main knots or the 3 caps rather than the chakras themselves. The chakra openings may or may not be accompanied by great purification but the piercing is of barriers to that.
    Just a few comments for the general audience – while kundalini rising is a key part of awakening preparation, it is a natural process that may be almost unnoticed by many. Those who use techniques designed to awaken chakras may notice the process more. Those with practices more like a mantra meditation may not notice much at all until the 6th chakra opens.
    Also, there tends to be a heavy emphasis on the main line. But there are many thousands of secondary nadis that are also cleared. We can experience this as thoughts or emotions arising in meditation, physical or energy releases, or purification. Most go by with hardly a notice.
    While there are people who go fast or take big leaps, most tend to step through this gradually and quietly. One need not expect or dread some big energetic drama.
    But if it does arise, there are experts, as Jill mentions. One I’ve heard recommended is Kundalini Vidya. They have an excellent book on the subject too, including the varieties of risings, the ways it may be deflected, and so forth.

    And not to worry if you don’t notice much. The opportunity will be there to see it all during the descent after awakening, after the “lights are on”.

  45. Thanks for clarifying that about the piercing of the knots David….and for pointing out that not everyone is going to go through an intense Kundalini process of clearing all the chakras…From Sno’s original comments, it seemed like he was involved in a more intense process so didn’t want to take it too lightly…

    I would venture to say that most people don’t go through a heavy process or a prolonged one.. that it depends on the sensitivity of the nervous system and the profundity of the awakening…

    There are what they call partial awakenings, which are much more common, where just a small portion of the energy flows throughout the system – and then there are the stampeding elephants..Ramana used to say that when the full blown Kundalini enters the room, the body is never the same…All the furniture gets rearranged..

    Not sure that preparation is key to not being upended…I meditated for 25 years – siddhis for 19 – only ate the purest of diets all my life..was in excellent health from birth – and still it was prolonged and intense..Even now there is some residue…heightened sensitivity to noise and light and crowds..etc..living in NYC I am..

    So thanks for your input – hope what we all post here can be of help to anyone listening…I can’t bear the thought of anyone suffering needlessly on this journey alone….I think what helps most is sharing from our own experiences – rather than esoteric knowledge..there are many books for that…

  46. Thanks for clarifying that about the piercing of the knots David….and for pointing out that not everyone is going to go through an intense Kundalini process of clearing all the chakras…From Sno’s original comments, it seemed like he was involved in a more intense process so didn’t want to take it too lightly…

    I would venture to say that most people don’t go through a heavy process or a prolonged one.. that it depends on the sensitivity of the nervous system and the profundity of the awakening…

    There are what they call, partial awakenings, which are much more common, where just a small portion of the energy flows throughout the system – and then there are the stampeding elephants..Ramana used to say that when the full blown Kundalini enters the room, the body is never the same…All the furniture gets rearranged..

    Not sure that preparation is key to not being upended…I meditated for 25 years – siddhis for 19 -6 advanced techniques – only ate the purest of diets all my life..was in excellent health from birth – and still it was prolonged and intense..Even now there is some residue…heightened sensitivity to noise and light and crowds..etc..living in NYC that I am..

    So thanks for your input – hope what we all post here can be of help to anyone listening…I can’t bear the thought of anyone suffering needlessly on this journey alone….I think what helps most is sharing from our own experiences – rather than esoteric knowledge..there are many books for that…

  47. Guys and Gals,
    I think we’ve had this discussion before..getting tripped up by words..one more time…As long as one is self-identified – there is ‘apparent’ choice and intention…If ego/identity is real for us..we act accordingly..

    So if given the ‘apparent’ choice of whether to resist or let go of what is no longer needed, we try to choose wisely..and surrender..The intention alone conveys a willingness to move toward the Divine and that is more than enough..It only looks for willingness…

    It’s true that when one is no longer identified as the ego/mind – when we have crossed over, and are living undivided, no longer a semblance of duality – – resting in the one Self -without any practice or outside assistance – no longer seeking anything- we can then dare to say there is choiceless awareness..If all is seen as One, and the paradox has been resolved on the level of experience, then there is no problem..and nothing to do..We are lived..

    Until then, speaking the higher Truth from a knowledge of how things are, that there is no one and nothing to do or to let go of, doesn’t get us anywhere..

    If challenges are still arising and we’re faced with a heavy emotion for example, we can apparently ‘choose’ or ‘intend’ surrender over resistance to what is..so why not go in that direction..It does help..

    I think the problem many people have with this Absolute/Relative concept, is because they have glimpsed Reality and have a good mental grasp of it, yet are not fully established in it…
    so it’s that in-between period where we understand quite well what the Absolute Truth is, but it hasn’t filtered down yet…caught between two worlds ..sensing there is intention, but then knowing there’s no real intention, choice but no real choice, surrender, but nothing to surrender..we swing back and forth..

    but I say, just be natural – don’t go into the mind to explain away what is arising – thinking there’s nothing to do – and just do whatever FEELS right in any given moment..

  48. Steve -and if Ising has let it all go – is at peace now – at One with everything – you’re right – there’s truly nothing that can be done from there by one’s own intention – cause the one who intends, has collapsed into the Infinite – cause to celebrate –

    I perhaps wrongly assumed- that it was just a heavy emotion that she surrendered to Self a few days ago…and that there were more moments to come..

    At any rate, she knows her own inner experience best…we’re just reading between the lines..I was just saying in general, that if we speak from our knowledge of the Absolute instead of our experience of living it, it tends to trip us up..

  49. Jill
    Yes, learning the surrender trick is a profound key on the journey. It gradually evolves into what has been described as perpetual surrender.

    It’s also worth noting that being in a transitional period is common to the path. As we approach awakening, as we integrate an awakening, as we approach the next stage, and so forth. The process does get easier after we get used to letting go of what appears real at the moment.

    However, it’s worth noting that at a later stage, choice and intention return. Not as the choice and intention of an individual, but when we become that which is choosing and intending. (that which is choiceless contains that which is choosing)

    Maya becomes Lila when we see the source and process, then we become That.

    It’s difficult to describe but surrender and choice become the same. The choiceless surrenders to choice, choice surrenders to choicelessness. Choice is seen as pure love.

  50. David – Yes – I think we’re saying the same thing in a different way- When the final surrender takes place we move into what I call Choiceless Awareness – where individual will has been relinquished and we are aligned with Universal choice….Life is then lived seamlessly without separation..

  51. Yes, a (timeless) moment of clarity – that’s all. Was just going to sleep when this “process” started spontaneously. Was not surrendering anything at all. The unreality of all so-called normal reality was so unmistakenly evident within – a real unreality underneath all thought is all I can say about that. Thoughts came up and fell back into the unreal real. Then a subtle fear arose that it would be overlayed and I fell asleep. Didn’t mean to create such a fuss. Don’t know where the “Oh Man” came from – not a phrase this me ever uses. Go figure. Regardless, this solid real unreal cannot be denied here. And that is good news for me.

  52. Ising, the surrender we talk about is not intentional (of the mind), it is more subtle than that. When you fall asleep at night, you are surrendering to sleep, you are allowing sleep to come. There is a kind of neutral gear between states of consciousness we go through for a moment at every change. Each of those is a moments transcendence, a moments release or allowing. So it is a ripe time for experiences.

    Similarly, some notice on occasion that waking in the morning, for a moment they don’t know who they are or what day it is. The concept of person has not yet kicked in. The ego ceases with the mind asleep at night. So letting go of the ego is not difficult. Just unfamiliar to waking state. 🙂

  53. Thanks Steve & David. Yes, have had some of those waking in the morning experiences – like a crystal clear river coming into the body. What is new here after last night’s glimpse – is the absence of doubt. In spite of many experiences that was still lingering. There is a certainty within,that before last night. wasn’t there. – that space was so solid it can no longer be doubted. That is huge for me – there’s a feeling of no pressure. It’s there regardless of what’s going on. If I make no more progress that that – I’d be happy with that. Love to all.

  54. @Snow
    How the shift is experienced varies widely. Some experience a death of the “ego” as controller self. Some, a gradual change that becomes more clear over time. For some, the ego seems to expand into the cosmic. It’s all the same thing, a way of experiencing how the identification shifts from being an individual person to being cosmic.

    If there is a sense of “ego death” its found later to still be there, but now just as the function of individual expression. The controller aspect and concepts of being a separate person are what actually ends. Although its common for some “shrapnel” to still be found, old habits of thinking to be seen and released.

  55. IS-ing – the end of doubt is wonderful. Makes it easier to step off the apparent cliff. (laughs)

    Although I’d clarify on Jills comment. The end of doubt is profound but I’ve not seen it as typical of the last barrier. Certainly possible though.

    For those few heart-centered folk, ironically compassion for others can be the last stress (it separates). But most commonly, it is our concepts of what awakening is that are the “last stress” to being. Once we let go of even our ideas of what it “should” be, then we can be.

    This is one of the reasons many teachers eschew any concepts about awakening. But to my mind it doesn’t work. The mind habitually makes a story and gathers beliefs about what this thing is. Better to have a good story that will serve us well after we let it go. (laughs)

  56. Steve – yeah that’s a big one too. I’ve seen people have a grand experience and then get stuck on the idea that the experience was it, if only it would come back. But an experience or taste is not it. They watch everyone around them wake up but still hold to a past memory of an experience. The ego is tricky that way. This is a variation on concepts of what it is.

  57. @Snow – I’d say its more the style of experience tends to certain types of wakings but one never knows.

    For many who have been on a long path, it can be as simple as knowing it’s real. Seeing someone they know personally wake up. That can clear the jaded shadow of old disappointment. (doubt) And its one of the reasons Rick start these interviews.

  58. Thanks Jill – the certainty of what…doesn’t seem to matter, except perhaps in trying to communicate – This certainty just is and feels unshakeable.and I am happy with that. Life will still bring what it brings.

  59. I can’t speak for Ising – but I do believe intuitively that she has already jumped off the cliff and slipped into spaciousness… From her recent description of how it went down, and from her expression of gratitude and new found confidence and joy in the experience…her saying it was enough…that is classic in waking up….
    Reading people spiritually is a subtle art..It develops over time with teaching – and right now it’s very important that she doesn’t doubt her experience..By the way, it was Ramana who said that doubt is often the last barrier, not I..

    I have felt for some time, through the spaces in Ising’s writing, that she had been on the verge of falling in…and now I think she has…

    The Divine sent her something recently cause she was so open, innocent and willing…not attached to concepts at all, she touched one’s heart -so let’s just let her unfold naturally from here without too much more generalizing and analyzing..

  60. Nice, Jill. I haven’t been able to follow the comments.

    But yes, you’re right about doubt. When the shift is clear, it’s self-verifying and destroys doubt. (although as Adyashanti comments, mind does tend to come back after a honeymoon and debate it)

    If the shift is not so clear, then its nice to have that verification. Clarity will come in time in any case but a shift can be very soft and gentle. Being that its new and often surprises, doubt can arise and get in the way of the peace and bliss.

    The surprise part is actually pretty funny. I’ve known a few people who’s initial reaction was – What! Thats it? All that practice and it was that SIMPLE!!?? Great laughter ensues…

  61. Thank you Jill – and all – Truth is, that’s all I know, that’s all there is to know and that is all I need to know. Blessings – come what may.

  62. Goodness gracious… how that must sound…think I best be quiet for awhile. Hope this 2 hours of sleep isn’t the start of a new trend – sure glad I cut the work schedule down to 3 days a week.

  63. Doubt, like every other form, appears and dis-appears.

    We can assign whatever meaning we want to its
    appearance and/or dis-appearance.

    But it will still appear and dis-appear.

    Like all forms do.

    “Good day,, doubt. Nice to see you again”

    “Au revoir, doubt. Until we meet again.”

  64. When an “awakening” contains aspects of “this, not that”… i.e. the presence of clarity (this) with the absence of doubt (that)… that “awakening” most likely takes place within the dream.

    On the other hand, an awakening of “this and that” is often an aspect of lucid dreaming.

    Where clarity and doubt are seen as complementary aspects of the dream.

    A dream where all aspects/forms appear and dis-appear.

    Including and clarity and doubt.

  65. Don’t “know” and can’t “know” because this wave is still appearing as a wave.

    When it dis-appears, you can ask me then.

    But then again, there won’t be a wave to ask.

  66. Here/Now are articulations of time/space, or the medium in which waves appear and dis-appear.

    It’s understandable that waves rely on wave-speak to describe the ocean or wavelessness..

    It’s part of what we do best… seeing the ocean as a wave.

    Or seeing the absence of all appearance as an appearance.

    That’s an experience I can’t attest to, however. I can only attest to the two different forms of awakening that I alluded to earlier.

  67. Happy to acknowledge that that’s your preferred spin on the ocean via the lens of a wave. It isn’t mine.

    The absence of time and space… or the ocean absent the waves… includes the absence of here and now.

    Here and now are part of wave-speak, by waves that appear and dis-appear in time and space.

    Thanks for sharing.

  68. hmm – Peter, I can’t say that’s language I’d use to describe the process. One can have good experiences in lucid dreaming but that’s not the same as an “awakening” referred to here. Certainly there is an “awakening” to the dream, then from the dream – at least the superficial aspects of it. Then a deeper discovery of the dream in a global way (Maya) and an awakening from that dream as well.

    But who we are is the deeper and truer aspect of awakening rather than our relationship to dream.

  69. “…who we are is the deeper and truer aspect of awakening rather than our relationship to dream.” – David

    Possibly. But then again, we could also be NOT the thing that we are identified with, whatever that identification may be.

    I.e. “We are a/the deeper and truer aspect of wakening” (a statement of identification).

    Response: We are not that too. Or any other identification.

    When I shared my experience of the two forms of awakening, my exclusion of a statement of identification was deliberate.

    We can perceive what we perceive without identifying with it.

  70. “We are” is a collective form of “I am”, both being manifestations of the passive verb “to be”.

    Speaking only from my experience in meditation, when you are nakedly aware of the thought “sadness”, the thought “sadness” easily appears and dis-appears.

    But when you place your naked awareness on the thought “I am sad” (a common thought-form for many), you can observe it stick around for quite some time.

    Any time that you use a version of “I am” or “we are” as part of a thought, you initiate or maintain a process of identification with that which you are observing.

    Ergo, I (a subject) am (an identification trigger) that (an object).

    No matter what that may be. Including “the deeper and truer aspect of awakening.”

    The truth of the matter may be… that we are not anything that we are identifying with.

    On a side note, what would happen if a parent encouraged his child to observe “sadness” instead of “I am sad”? I suspect that sadness would appear and dis-appear more easily in her life. Instead of stick around and turn into suffering.

  71. “Who We Are is not an identification with.
    Who We Are is identity as.”

    Its actually the same thing, Steve. When you go through enough shifts, it becomes clear that there is a sequence where we experience and then become. That becoming is identity = identification.

    But at that level, the identification isn’t held or “sticky” the way it is with ego identification. Thus we can experience being a tree or a god. Identification can shift as easily as we wish.

  72. I agree. Wholeheartedly.

    Which is why when my daughter asserted that she was utterly confused about something last night and felt some angst about it, I asked her tp place her naked awareness on the thought-form “I am confused” (an identification) and then “confusion”.

    The former felt constraining whereas the latter felt free flowing, she reported back to me.

    She opted to observe the latter thereafter.

  73. Steve – There is not one way here, but many.

    Self sees trees and gods, then Self sees only Self, then Self sees Self as trees and gods so can become them as wished.

    Mind is the surface of Self-awareness so is none other than Self. But Self becomes aware of itself at every scale. Thus, every object of perception is in a bubble of self-awareness and thus has it’s own “mind”. Bubbles are within bubbles, creating what might be called layers of mind. What level is creating what? That can become a rabbit hole.

    When self-awareness ceases, mind ends as does any objects of perception. That remains. But for That to know Itself, it creates via mind. Mind and objects are not the issue – just being caught by them.

    Yes, and identity. Many teachers talk about overcoming or killing the identity. That’s an important teaching for one stage. As a separate sense of self, that does end. And for a time we may feel identityless. But that is not the end of the process. As greater clarity dawns, we still find some value of person there, having experiences and a sense of who we are. But now, it is an evolution rather than a fixed thing. We are becoming more than being.

  74. Another note on this to clarify – mind is just the surface of Self. It is nothing separate from That. What arises in mind is from impulses of intelligence/ intention of Self. We could say it is innocent within itself.

    Those impulses arise from Smriti and Shruti, memory and sound/vibration.

    That said, due to the principle of as above, so below, local mind can mirror this process when it’s self-identified, creating it’s own story and drama separate from Self. When that veil is lifted, that dynamic winds down and we are as if driven by the Divine. Which in turn we find is none other that ourSelves.

  75. NeverNotHere and similar sites and teachings put great emphasis on the first stage of awakening/ enlightenment but typically fail to recognize it’s only the beginning. By the intro, Norquist seems in this camp too.

    Its wonderful to see all these expressions of awakening. But one can note many are quite dry, not yet the full Sat Chit Ananda of ripened CC. They are free but empty.

    Such teachings are generally classed as “neo-advaitist” because they confuse the inner unity of Self Realization (CC) with the total unity of mature Unity. As long as the world is seen as illusion and That is seen as empty, there is still duality and almost everything has been missed.

    The problem with such teaching is if the person is convinced “This is it”, this will be a barrier to further progress just like concepts of awakening can be a barrier to awakening.

    And you’re certainly welcome to consider words like Divine to be a romantic notion. But if you think it hollow and false, that would be your loss. I once made that mistake also.

    Dry CC /Self Realization is a stepping stone to a much fuller vision and being. Mistaking it for the goal is to loose the potential of a profound gift. As the saying in India goes, you will have sold a diamond for the price of spinach.

  76. thanks David for your comments… expressing the full blossom of a flower… or at least much fuller… than just the beginning of a bud…

  77. Sigh…just came upon this..hope Chuckee doesn’t…his head will explode for sure.. I’ll just say for him that I can’t find a boundary in consciousness..and any talk of ‘states’ post awakening, is beyond the pale..nonsense…Only the mind separates in this way; the heart cannot..
    There is just the SELF…Brahman – which includes everything..is everything..always was..always is..undivided..whole..in love..in joy…one without a second…

  78. Hi Jill
    Right – consciousness itself is stateless and without boundaries. But most people experience apparent stages in unfolding their realization of the fullness of That. What most people describe as The awakening is NOT the fullness of that. Not even remotely. And unless it’s actually inclusive of all, it’s not what the Vedas meant by Brahman.

    I find it curious this is debated on this site. Many of the interviewees have described this (including this one) and it’s one of the basic tenets of the interviewer.

    You can debate philosophically all you want but I’ve seen and helped people through these stages. And even interviewees such as Gangaji who push against concepts of stages describe the stages in their own unfolding.

    As I mentioned, telling people there isn’t a process is just another concept that has to die like the ego. There is no instant enlightenment.

  79. Of course there is a process or progression.

    Every storyline requires progression.

    You can’t have a story without it.

    Of course there is a process or progress.

    It’s a story after all.

  80. David on March 14, 2012 at 9:46 pm said: “…. I find it curious this is debated on this site. Many of the interviewees have described this (including this one) and it’s one of the basic tenets of the interviewer… ”

    and last nite… Adyashanti devoted almost the whole two hours of his online course… to really explain beautifully this process of getting stuck… in what has been called neo-advaita…

    basically it’s getting stuck on the first one or two steps … without progressing to the third…
    1) the world is illusion
    2) only brahman is real
    3) brahman is the world

    i hope Adya makes his video available to everyone on YT etc… as he really does it great justice… in my POV of course…

    just a thought … seems to me… this kind of stuckness… is a lot more likely to happen… on the path of knowledge… on the path of devotion & selfless service… this stuckness can be avoided … since the opening of heart embraces all… to whatever degree… from the start… one example comes to mind is Peace Pilgrim…

    after realization… Peace P did not talk about it… in the way it is talked about now… she basically taught people about peace… inner peace… world peace… finding ones role in the big scheme of things… forgiveness… love… compassion by example of her life… suggested simplicity of life…

    one of her students kept asking her… “Peace what is your secret, you must have a secret ?”… Peace always replied … “i have no secrets” which in a way was true… about her life… however… shortly before her leaving the body… she finally admitted… “i do have one secret… long time ago… i utterly died to my self” …

    in my 2cents POV… we are going through a period … where we do need to talk about it somewhat… mainly because of heavily conditioned/addicted western ego-mind-intellect… which needs some amount of “understanding” for the knowledge to spread… and this is happening at various “levels” … yes levels…

    and those who really Realize… with a capital R… do not talk about it… (much)… they live it… thanks for listening… love & light…

  81. Not debating that there is an internal process David and Anatol- but we can get carried away by the labeling of different states etc etc..and the putting down of neo-advaita -or any path – the whole misunderstanding of what constitutes halfway up the mountain which is so common today..

    For what it’s worth…The SELF or Brahman IS all inclusive of all states and we deepen into it over apparent time…not a linear ladder..but an understanding and a fullness of heart that filters down into the body to permeate every fiber and then moves outward into the apparent world..end of story..end of mind as we know it..just this..no debate..

    Anyone who has truly awakened and is willing, will unfold quite naturally from there..Papaji never said anything more to Gangaji than – ‘that’s it’ at certain intervals..He’d say the door is open now – or you’re going in the right direction…not much instruction which just keeps people bound..

    Adya lays out a looser map than MMY’s which leaves more room for spaciousness..simpler – and it can be useful – but when the door has truly been opened by the Silent transmission, we throw the maps away….we have to..It’s a safety net that ultimately has to be relinquished..by teachers and by students..

    Whenever I feel people have gone too much one way in terms of any mental map I tend to try to loosen the ties…by bringing them back to just what is…The Self and nothing more…We begin there and end there..That’s all the non-dualists are pointing to..

    Ultimately, this whole trip is about relinquishing control over everything we relied on to get us through the journey…if we relied on a mental construct, a mental map, or a practice or a devotional construct -we need to let that all go…and go completely into the unknown..have faith and jump….

    The best teachers encourage people by their example to go into the unknown and stay there and see what happens..The kindest thing Pamela ever did for me was to emphasize that there is nothing to cling to..no map at all…full speed ahead..dying to all we know ourselves to be….
    As humans we are always looking for certainty and there is none once the Vastness appears in one’s life – as one’s life…(Actually there never was certainty but the illusion of it somehow appeared).. If we pull back and allow the mind to come in and divide up Reality, we can and do get stuck..as teachers and as students..

    Sometimes the site gets quite heady and then Consciousness here says – just leave it all alone..hence last night’s posting..
    Love to you all..

  82. “…there is nothing to cling to..no map at all…full speed ahead..dying to all we know ourselves to be…. – Jill

    A(wo)men, Jill.

    All-inclusively said, in so few words.


  83. Can I assume, snow, that when you say “built-in GPS” you are referring to the same thing that Nisargadatta referred to when he said:

    “Since it is awareness that makes consciousness possible, there is awareness in every state of consciousness. Therefore, the very consciousness of being conscious is already a movement in awareness. Interest in your stream of consciousness takes you to awareness.”

    “Built-in GPS” = “interest in your stream of consciousness”?

  84. Anatol
    I’ve found Adyashanti very useful on my journey. For example, he talks about the “decent” after awakening, head, heart and gut. I’d not seen that elsewhere but ran into myself.

    He’s a little lighter on concepts than traditional teachings but describes the process beautifully, bringing another perspective and supporting hundreds in their process.

  85. When I practice anapanasati with my daughter, Steve, our only intention, at the outset, is to place our attention on whatever form appears/dis-appears before our attention.

    Sometimes those forms come in the form of thoughts; sometimes they come in the form of pictures; sometimes they are feelings; sometimes physical sensations, or, combinations of some or all of the above.

    When your sole intention is to place your attention on whatever form appears/dis-appears before you, labeling form-object(s) is not part of the awareness placement. Nor is the creation of conclusions regarding those form-objects.

    I haven’t given much thought to the distinction(s) between awareness and consciousness. It does feel like a playful conceptual sandbox, though.

    Instead, we both enjoy placing our attention on whatever forms appear before us.

  86. I never felt a resonance with the notion of self-inquiry in the first place, so I’m not surprised with that conclusion of yours.

    Inquiry involves a inquirer, regardless of the object of your inquiry.

    Naked and unadorned awareness, on the other hand, poses no question/questioner..

  87. Hi Jill
    Apologies for the rant. I simply find it frustrating when people tell those on the journey to cast aside their map. Sure, the map is not the road but we’ll put it aside when we get there. Without some idea of where we’re going, its easy to get lost and create unnecessary suffering.

    There are now numerous people who have had a spiritual awakening and are confusing self-realization with Advaita Vedanta. This is what I mean by “neo-advaita” – it’s a distortion. A significant number are teaching it. It’s natural to think we’re “there” when the seeker falls away and clarity comes. But as the sages of old have reminded us, that’s not it. If you don’t continue, you have lost a profound opportunity that is extremely rare. It’s very difficult to get this kind of growth after we leave the body.

    There is “halfway up the mountain” in terms of thinking oneself awake before one is. And it shows again as people who are awake who think they’ve got the whole story. Unless they know there’s more, they won’t look.

    Yes, I fully agree about Brahman. It is beyond states and is inclusive of all states. But until we “get there” – and not just Atman but Brahman, where even the duality of Prakriti-Purusha (nature/awareness) merges, where the process of experience collapses, where all of experience is united and is not separate or seen as illusion, that’s not it. It is SO not it.

    Sure – I’d like to agree that once awake, it will all unfold from there. Gangaji had the advantage of darshan, hanging with the teacher. If you don’t have that emulation, you often don’t have the internal compass. The ancient sages agree and I’ve seen the same. Vasishtha said you have to desire Unity to develop it. How can you desire it if you don’t know it’s there? How can you cooperate with a strange process if you don’t understand it? Sure, there are some who just surrender to the process but most of us need a little more, in my experience.

    I love Adya and as I mentioned prior, agree that he has a looser definition. But he leaves out much of the GC stuff. If you don’t understand that process, what are you to make of it showing up? And he doesn’t yet talk of past the gut, past the unity shift. What of the root? What of it coming out into the world? 😉

    And yes, awakening is letting go of the map and surrendering. But the map was useful to get to the point where we can let it go. It was your time to let it go but is it everyones time? Is your instruction the right one for all?

    There are times when we need to let go of the map. And there are times when we need a map. To demonize all use of maps is the issue I’m trying to point out.

    There’s another way we can look at it. In India, they have 6 systems of philosophy. The first is Nyaya, logic, how to gain correct knowledge. The following 5 describe the reality of each stage. For example, the Yoga Sutras are the map for Self Realization. After that, we put that book down and turn to Karma Mimansa. Then the map for Vedanta. What many teach today is Vedanta for self-realization. Oops.

    As for certainty, that comes later, as you approach unity. Then the “inner guru” comes online.

    I agree that giving the mind too much weight is a mistake. But I also know it’s much easier to get the mind out of the way if it’s satisfied. Especially for people who have strong intellects (the gyan’s).

    The analogy that comes to mind – a walking stick. As we climb the mountain, a walking stick is useful. When we reach a new, steeper part, a different stick may be useful, so we put down the old one and take up another. When we reach the summit, we can put them all down. But do we then tell all the hikers to abandon their walking sticks because you did?

  88. Re. David’s above analogy…

    I abide halfway up the mountain.

    I originally arrived here via an effort to reach the top, because I believed that its apex possessed something that I didn’t have.

    Until I discovered that every location of the mountain possesses exactly what its top does.

    So I abide midway, and am happy to offer you as many sticks as you want for your journey.

    Because no matter where you will eventually end up, you will possess what the mountain’s top has to offer.

    At any point of the mountain.

  89. Thank you David –

    I think I opened up a can of worms unintentionally…Only point was that mental constructs of all kinds can trip us up..and yesterday’s discussion seemed to be a bit heady..so statements were made to be less so..

    .My feeling is that the more maps we can unload the better…They keep us safe but can be a hindrance..I have no problem with you seeing their usefulness..no right or wrong here..

    You’re new to the site but I spoke earlier about spending many years enamored of the mind – on going to see Alan Watts as a teenager and delving into Zen – then with MMY for 25 years of practice and purification through knowledge..not against the intellect, but just came to see it’s limitations..

    When I finally arrived in satsang 40 years later, it became clear that all of that which brought us there could not take us further..I saw that true Understanding comes AFTER realization..not before…that the illusory mind could NEVER be satisfied..that it was non-productive to keep trying to grasp this realization through the mind..We can’t get it that way..

    To save friends time now – I tell them to just be open and receptive – to leave the mental constructs behind and be willing to put oneself in the field of Grace…It will do the rest…

    BTW Adya does speak to the heart- As I remember, he talks about when the understanding deepens and beings to penetrate that area -and the emptiness begins to dance…That dance is none other than the dance of love..the filling up of the emptiness..and then finally he says the river flows down into the gut – penetrating all that we are – which he calls embodiment..the final relinquishing of personal will..That embodiment then moves into the world seamlessly..as we are lived..

    That’s enough of a map for me..seems accurate from what I’ve observed in most awakening processes – and as long as it’s not clung to for dear life by the obsessive among us, what the heck. Hey,.I flunked geography so what do I know of maps..I’ve just observed that they can be a hindrance to the natural flow of life running through us..In truth, almost anything can be a help or a hindrance..

    When I speak, I always say – take what you need that resonates and throw away the rest…We are all unique..and there is really no reason to debate..was just trying to uncomplicate a process that seems to be getting ever more complicated..
    Love to you and all..

  90. Good point Sno – but be aware that not all who hang out a shingle and are posted on u-tube are spiritual masters -There are no requirements or licenses in this area..and there are many I know who hang loose and don’t hang a shingle who are doing some fine teaching wherever they roam..yourself included..If we are the Self we can easily recognize its expression in others..

  91. Hi Peter
    That’s an important discovery to make, and quite valid. But there something else that’s useful to know. The higher you go, the greater the view. Not to stretch the analogy too far, but it’s what makes the “top” different.

    If you want to understand reality, it’s much easier when you can look around. If that’s not important for you, half way up may be just fine. Enjoy it.

  92. Nah, Jill, it’s just my little rant because of the challenges i faced in my own journey. I do what i can to support others so they can have a smoother ride. If they want it.

    So your motivation is similar to mine. I’m hoping to give people a map to support them through the huge landscape of awakening. You’ve learned to cast those maps aside. I have too actually. I’m working to create a framework to support the massive numbers who are coming down the pipe. The process has begun to cascade and there are many outside any teaching who are looking for a map without all the clutter.

    What you suggest to friends is very good. But don’t forget the foundational understanding you have that they may not. And there are some of us who have very strong intellects. The mind will not abate unless its satisfied.

    And BTW – I’m not new here. I commented on all the earliest interviews but then got behind and now just drop in here occasionally.

    Apologies if I came on a little strong.

  93. David –
    I love rants – no problem….and this is all very individual as you know..we’re all just speaking generally here..some people need more information than others when the opening occurs…and they find teachers to give them that..some prefer the jump into the unknown and find they like it there..I liked peeling the bandaid off quickly as a kid..

    There’s no one way of approaching people -and we don’t have to shoulder it all….Grace does the enlightening – not us..burden lifted..I feel your heart in wanting to help and that’s what’s really important..

    When teaching one on one, or just hanging out as I call it – people will get what they need…I always Trust that the Self speaks to exactly what is needed….

    We don’t have to formulate a teaching..it will just come through naturally according to who you’re speaking to..and if it is received fine – if not – that’s also fine..the Transmission does most of the work anyway…

    and now to important stuff – American Idol -got to get the popcorn ready – my twins are coming over –

  94. Steve – that’s funny – there’s no accounting for taste is there….but what’s not to be enjoyed….I like basketball too…although the Knicks are again on a losing streak…darn it..not like the old Knicks back in the 70’s…when they knew how to play as a team..an old boyfriend had season tickets and I was sooo in love with Clyde..those were the days…

  95. Rick, have you heard from Andree lately? I ask because the link you posted in her name “Domain Expired” two days ago. Hayehwatha and Vovo are still up, but the other, gone since 4/17/14, so I’s wondering if she’s ok or if you know anything?
    This interview made me want to talk to H about the edge of the universe, as per a dream I had a while back (5 or 6 yrs. ago actually), just as I was beginning to “understand” a little about Ramana Maharshi’s ‘Who Am I’ technique. Funny how things line up…

  96. Her domain was renewed yesterday for a year. Looks like it just got caught in the long weekend. In this case, the home page is probably replaced with a placeholder and the rest of the site is intact but not accessible.

    It will probably be back up early next week.

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