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Rick Archer: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer. And this is an ongoing series of interviews with spiritually Awakening people. There have been nearly 300 of them now. And if you’d like to check out the archives go to batgap.com. There’s also a donate button there, which I always mentioned the beginning of interviews in case people don’t make it to the end. Because this whole thing depends upon and relies upon the support of people who enjoy listening to it. My guest today is Enza Vita. And that is in Adelaide, Australia where it is about almost midnight now. And she heroically has stayed up late and drunk more coffee than she’s accustomed to drinking at this hour in order to participate in this conversation. I met Enza about three four years ago at the Science non duality conference in that time it was in San Rafael, California, she she came to a presentation that I was moderating, which you can find on BatGap. It was a panel discussion with what doesn’t matter. It’s a panel discussion on and her, she was noticeable in the audience very bright. And afterwards, she came up and participated in a very deep conversation with one of the participants in the panel. And so I met her husband or partner Lele drily, who is a musician and the two of them had flown all the way over. And I always had in the back of my mind that I’d like to interview Enza. And finally, we were doing it. So welcome. Thank you. Thank you. And it’s good. We waited because in the years since we met, you’ve written this book, always already free, which I read in its entirety this week, and really enjoyed.
Enza Vita: Yes, actually, that book was ready. Five years ago, it’s just never got published until now.
Rick Archer: But I hear you were something of perfectionist in terms of, you know, really making sure it was clear. And, you know, it was,
Enza Vita: well how the book started. Basically, it was It wasn’t meant to be a book, all that that was was just my journals that I kept, as I was going through different experiences prior to realization and after Realization, and and basically one day later said, can I see what you’ve been writing in those in those journals, and I showed him tamas, and he said, you know, they’re good, you should consider getting them published. And obviously, there were no, there were just jumbled up notes of everything. In the middle of that there were quotes of Nisargadatta quotes about the teachers. And, you know, and I also had, I have got the bad habit too. When I hear something on somebody in a book or something, I write it down in my journal right. And sometimes I don’t even give a credit. So it was a little bit less trying to my Jennifer, my really trusty assistant, I gave it to her. She typed it off. She put it through different Scobie, coffee, Scott minutiae. And she’ll say, Miss and so we found another one, she meant that is not yours. This time. I knew that I didn’t like that. So anyway, took a process law that are trying to get rid of all this stuff. And, but then he still was very thick. And some of the stuff wasn’t really appropriate anymore, because I changed. And so I kept on revising, and revising and revising it until it got to the present format.
Rick Archer: Well, I thought it was really clear. And, you know, I. So lately, I’ve been been in the habit of just reading people’s books, or listening to their talks and stuff and not taking a lot of notes. I just kind of feel like I get to know them by reading their book or listening to their other talks and interviews. So that’s what I did. And as I read, they were you know, if you had been sitting in the room, we could have had conversations about just every page just about every page in the book, you know, because there’s all sorts of interesting points that come up, some of which concur with my experience and understanding and some of which differed a little bit, and I thought, well, I like the question or about that. But I think all this will come out during the course of this conversation. So you’re from Sicily originally, which is an island off the southern coast of Italy and it’s part of Italy, it’s where the mafia is from the Pope. To start with. The mafia can be concealed. Good Catholics anymore. So,
Enza Vita: yeah, we do have Masha. And actually, I wasn’t going to talk about this, but some relatives in my family were involved. We never did, because my dad didn’t really belong to, you know, it’s usually passed on to the male lineage. So my dad married my mom, and he wanted to have nothing to do with it. But actually, I remember my grandmother being visited by some guys when I was a kid. And he seemed a very nice guy, I found out after that he was, wasn’t that nice.
Rick Archer: And so you grew up in Sicily. And, you know, there’s a pattern that I’ve recognized among many people that I’ve interviewed and other spiritual people that I know about, which is that very often they have stuff going on when they’re little kids, you know, that it’s, they don’t necessarily have a normal childhood, they have unusual experiences. And, you know, my explanation for that would be that, you know, we all come into this life at varying degrees of level of spiritual evolution, some very highly evolved, some may be close to realization, some, very far from it, probably due to development in past lives. And that, therefore, some kids are just inclined to sort of be different from, from their peers, and to have interesting spiritual experiences at a very young age. Yeah.
Enza Vita: Well, I definitely was different. And my family didn’t really understand what was going on. And I think we, we talked about it with Jerry as well. Actually, when I was probably five or six years old. They took me to psychologists, because there was a Sister of My dad that had some sort of a mental illness. And so they obviously, were very afraid that that’s what was going on with me. Because I will be talking about lights I will be talking about out of body experiences, I didn’t use those words, I didn’t know what they were, I will be talking about lucid dreaming where I’ll be awakened in the dream sight. And so they thought there’s something wrong with this child. And it was, as a kid, it was actually traumatic for me to see how worried my parents were. And I decided that I wasn’t going to talk about my experiences after that time, you know, so my mom crying, worried that there was something wrong with me and sort of zipped up from that on because I thought I couldn’t really, but I had all sorts of experiences like that. And the first of all, everybody was having them. But when I talked to my sisters or my friends that wasn’t, that wasn’t happening. So yeah, and also had some what do you call memories of past life? Yeah, I didn’t know back then what they were. But amongst with red rose that I’d never seen before. See, I grew up in a little village, there was only like, 1500 people. And we didn’t even have a lot of rain. I used to catch the bus to go to school. So there was absolutely nothing. There was a church, and there was the local priest. And that was the closest that I could get to spirituality. And I would love to, I love to sort of sneak back into the church, even when nobody was there. And we had this really old priest. And he wasn’t very friendly. He was like, What are you doing here, go home. And after he left, after he left, the young priests probably in his 20s came, and he was a lot more friendly. And so it became, you know, why buffers teacher were how I’ll be going there and sort of asking him questions. And then he was very nice, you know, you would just try to answer, however we could. But eventually even he had to say, Okay, just one question, I think, really carefully which question
Rick Archer: I wanted to ask you are full of questions.
Enza Vita: I was full of questions, because I was having all these experiences. And nobody seemed to know what what they were,
Rick Archer: what sort of experiences were you having?
Enza Vita: Well, apart the experiences of like, every night, I would go over the roof of the houses in this sort of transparent bowl. And I would also sneak out at night on top of the roof, and I will sit there and I’ll just look at the stars, and I would just feel so amazing. And I’ll fall asleep at some time and wake up in the morning. And I would have lucid dreaming where I would be awake in the dream so there wasn’t much difference between my normal everyday life and the dream state. I’ll be fully awake and
Rick Archer: This was like pretty young, five, six years old,
Enza Vita: very young. And also also, you know, I was a pretty strange child, you know, when I was born, the The nerve of this I got damaged. And so by the age of one years old that I was blind. And yes, and it’s still blind, so I can see a little bit. But back then, there, I also become crossed died, right, and insistently there is this, because he couldn’t see. And typically there is a thing that people that have this sort of condition, they actually have psychic powers. So there was this, together with blood, they heard about experiences I was having, because I was talking, you know, when I was little, I didn’t know that I had to shut up. Right. So I was like, the little witch or the village, you know? And yeah,
Rick Archer: so one good thing, it wasn’t a few 100 years earlier.
Enza Vita: No, well, that’s the thing, when if you’re a girl, and you have I guess, the depth of facial disfigurement, in back then it wasn’t as socially accepted, as well. And, you know, but I guess in retrospect, you know, the way the kids teasing me and stuff like that. But then, in retrospect, I realized that he made me closer to people that were different, you know, the way imperfect, you know, because I consider myself imperfect. Because of this, this, this problem, and, and I realized that everybody felt imperfect in some way or another. And that this one was just an exterior thing. They just showed how everybody felt. Yeah, there was something wrong with them. Yeah, so it was a great gift and a great teacher,
Rick Archer: to say the whole thing about, you know, Insanity and spirituality, and you know, how some times they’re mistaken for one another. You know, some people might have thought you were crazy, and I don’t. And in my own life, my mother actually did go insane and spend years in mental hospitals, but she was also a very spiritual person. And, and this all started out with, like, you know, messing around with a Weegee board. And then she thought she was talking to her mother. And then she started seeing auras around things, she started seeing auras around trees and everything. And yet she was, you know, really flipping out. So, did you ever have times when you, you know, not only maybe your friends, but you thought that maybe are kind of going crazy, because you’re in such a different state than
Enza Vita: not when I was young. Lad in life, just prior to my realization, there was a period in my life where the things were going on, when my mind that I felt that, oh, what’s going on is scary, you know, I will tell my one of my teachers, I feel like I’m going nuts, because I’ll be a night and I would watch my mind spinning by itself, and I was just watching it, and I couldn’t do anything about it
Rick Archer: was that when you were asleep,
Enza Vita: or awake? Like whatever, like, I would just see the mind machine just going faster and faster and faster and faster. And as if I was almost locked out. So I was having all these strange experiences leading up to the realization.
Rick Archer: Yeah, well, we might be getting a little bit ahead of ourselves. But, you know, seems to me, from what I’ve observed over the years, and probably you have to that realization necessitates and actually can be defined as a huge transformation. And when you go from point A to point B, you know, going from ordinary state to a Realized state, all kinds of stuff has to get rearranged in your psychology, your physiology and all. And sometimes that can be quite tumultuous, you know,
Enza Vita: it is and it still is still going through some stuff of that some remains of that, because as that realization comes in into the body, because people think that the realization of our transcendental state, is it, it’s finished. Right? So you go up the mountain, and you have all these amazing experiences. You can have amazing some people don’t you know, your, your mind stops, your thoughts stop. You. You’re blissed out all the time and all this stuff. So it’s very easy for us to think that we’ve reached the ultimate state, but it’s not the end. In a way. It’s just the beginning. It’s just the beginning. Yeah, it’s just the beginning, in the first few years after my realization after the first stage, I guess the realization of My transcendental nature. All I wanted to do is actually sit in my backyard, and just immerse myself in this amazing. Yes, love. And I think that’s what people do, you know, and they think this is it, this is the end, but it’s almost like you’re allowed to stay there a little while. And then you know, something within yourself. If we’re talking like the alpha, we’re talking duality in our like in the new terms, then we say the divine says that it’s time to get back down to go, time to descend back from the mountain into the worlds of time and space.
Rick Archer: reminded of the Zen ox herding pictures, you’ve probably seen those, you know, the different stages, and there’s the transcendental stage where there’s nothing to be seen anymore. It’s just a blank canvas. But then eventually the guy comes back into the marketplace, you know, riding the ox big smile on his face.
Enza Vita: Yes, yes. And, and the sand is very important. Because, you know, first you resist, because you’re not you don’t want to leave the space. So absolute beauty. And also what are the characteristics is that the soul, if you want to talk the soul wants, go deeper into it, go go deeper into the absolute. And
Rick Archer: last, but in no way, you’re not what I was saying. But in a way, you’re not leaving it right, you’re bringing with you back into the world,
Enza Vita: you just send and as you descend, you don’t descend as a god, you descend as a human being. And you take on again, the garments of human limitations. So you start feeling the fears, you start feeling the thoughts, you start feeling the emotions, but now you know, that all thoughts and all emotions are not arising in that separate person here called Enza. But they’re arising in that one being, in which every thing is sharing with, with, and, and so when, when we realize that, I guess our life takes on a deep value and sacredness because we realize that the Divine is experiencing itself as everything, as the world, in and as the world in and as all others and in and as us and, and I guess when that happened with the, with the dissent, and also with the conscious suffering, because up until now, we we have suffered, but that the suffering was mostly unconscious, and when we take on when we choose to come back, as MBR, conscious participant to that divine play, then something else that’s happening where I guess a love and compassion that comes from it doesn’t come from the body mind unit, but it comes from that source starts coming in and when this love and compassion marries with the power of transcendence, he becomes like the divine impulse that is the will and the wish to help other people into the realization of their highest potential, which is Enlightenment. So, you know, the transcendental state is just the first the first bit there has to be that maturity then that then the sees the divine in everything you know, and I guess this is then what we call true bhakti. The true bhakti is the love, the sees the beloved everywhere. And this is when it starts really maturing because we then we are conscious participant of life all of life. We are the transcendental on but we also are everything here, and there’s no separation.
Rick Archer: There’s a lot of great stuff in what you just said. I was reminded of a Rumi quote, we’re in a room he says, God sleeps in the rock dreams in the plant, stirs in the animal, and awakens in the human being. And it’s and the implication is that God is imminent is God is all pervading in creation in all those things, but there’s different mediums, rock, plant, animal human are have different different capacities to reflect or express. The Divine you know, Um, and somehow I was reminded that as you were speaking and and it’s funny because before we started, I was remembering a conversation that you were having with Mark McCovey at the science and non duality conference when you were after our little presentation we gave and I overheard you guys talking about God consciousness as opposed to self realization at least that’s what I thought you were talking about. And your friend Leanne, from Adelaide sent in the question, do you believe the term Self Realization and God realization are the same states? If not, how do you see the difference? And I think you’ve kind of just laid it out, because you were saying that there was a transcendental phase, which was like self realization. But then it seems to have matured into a much more devotional divine oriented, service oriented, you know, divine in the world kind of orientation. So you want to elaborate on those points?
Enza Vita: Well, we, we seem, seem to think that she gives me little energy. Oh, we seem to think that realization is somehow bringing the story of the me is not the separate self that we believe to be to a satisfactory conclusion. But actually, what happens is that it is realized that the me that we believe ourselves to be the separate person is not an aware being and not is not an aware being aware of being I say, yes, the only aware being is the one being in which everyone shares in everything shares in so. So that’s the only way being this aware being expresses itself through everything. World stars, UMB everything. And so, you know, when people say, there’s no one here, I guess that’s true. In one sense, there is no separate person here. But the Divine is, is is experiencing itself through each one of us at every moment. And that’s, I guess, that’s the God realization there is only one being and and when people talk about non duality, they think that that means just 111 thing, but the non duality is, we are that one being but we also we are everything else
Rick Archer: is that I don’t mind the way you’re sitting, it’s kind of pretty, but you don’t need to lean in really close. If you don’t want to, you can just sit back and relax.
Enza Vita: No, I get excited.
Rick Archer: Oh, that’s okay.
Enza Vita: In a minute, I’ll be standing up,
Rick Archer: okay, good. Then we’ll just see your your belly. There’s a line from the incredible string band that you just reminded me of which was light, that is one though the lamps be many. So it wouldn’t be true to say there are no lamps. It’s but rather it’s the same light shining through all lamps. And but that doesn’t mean there are no lamps. So I mean, could you would you agree that, you know, it’s not true to say there are no people, your children are an illusion or something? It’s like, okay, you are a person, but you just not only a person, you know, there’s a much vaster reality to what you essentially are, but that sort of shines through the person?
Enza Vita: Absolutely. There is, there is a huge difference between saying that there is no one here. And in a way that it’s a narcissistic and insensitivity to the pain of others, and also to the beauty of the world. And to actually realize that directly, and in a way that opens our heart and dissolves the apparent separation between transcendental and ordinary reality.
Rick Archer: That’s nice. Yeah. Because I mean, there are teachers running around or have been saying that sort of thing. And then if someone comes to them with a heart rending story, like my child got hit by a car, you know, they actually might respond by saying, there is no,
Enza Vita: There’s no one.
Rick Archer: There is no car.
Enza Vita: That is no one,
Rick Archer: right? This is just a story. You know, nothing happened. And who, you know, I mean, maybe on some ultimate level, that’s true, but that’s not the whole picture.
Enza Vita: No, definitely not. Realization doesn’t mean that we are disconnected from our feelings. doesn’t mean that we don’t have any feel disconnected from the world. It’s not as if we are sitting in this space where there is nothing. We don’t have to care about anything, you know, wants to become that wants to become that kind of an idiot. And so, the point is that, of course, there is, there is people and all this is happening, and it’s all one being, ultimately to one being, experiencing itself through everything. Yeah, for now, do you want to say, okay,
Rick Archer: I can I can, or you can keep going? I mean, how could it be anything other than one being? Because if we analyze anything, you know, what is this? It’s it’s paper. But then what is paper? Go case? Molecules? What are they? They’re atoms, what are atoms, they’re subatomic particles, what are they? Well, you get down to something that’s not even physical. And, you know, that some, some scientists are actually they caught the vacuum state and some scientists, John Hagen, who was in that presentation, I refer, equates with consciousness and makes a really good argument of how the, the essential nature of what appears to be physical is consciousness. And that is obviously your essential nature. But you know, having gone through all that, that is not to say, there is no book, you know, and that we couldn’t read this book, and, you know, get something from it. So there’s kind of a Yeah, both an appreciation of, of the universe.
Enza Vita: And there are, there are obviously paths, and teachers that say that there is nothing that we as the separate person can do to awaken. And this, of course, is absolutely true. But if there is still a person there, if we’re still identified with the apparent person, then to say that there is nothing or there is nothing to do, or do we already enlightened, it’s like deluding ourselves, and just putting up a veneer of lofty thoughts over all of our suffering, our suffering, of separation. And, and now usually, I find that these people are even in a worse position than they were before they started seeking because now, this sort of with the denial of the, of their suffering, they just live in a world where disconnection is interpreted as being peace. And a sinner, Lyra. God is always very merciful, sooner or later, as our suffering will resurface in full measure, and we will be forced to confront what we thought that we left behind. So it’s just a stage.
Rick Archer: Yeah, it’s a stage of some people stay in for a long time. But it’s a stage. You’re actually in the big picture of things, how vast the span of time really is, I guess, if not a long time. Not just a blink of an eye. But um, yeah, I mean, I run into these people and say, there’s nothing to do and, and usually what they, I don’t know, it becomes sort of an excuse to not do anything, really, if you think there’s nothing to do and then But then Well, I gotta do something. So I’m also get on the internet and start telling other people, there’s nothing to do.
Enza Vita: Yes, there are always see, David, come sometime on my Facebook. And there are little wars, on Facebook or social media about the two camps, there’s nothing to do, and you have to do something. And you know, even this is a stage because I guess when you see that everything is that, then you lose interesting in telling people. The for example, they are doing bowing, bowing, bowing is that Zen Zen, you know, I didn’t do a lot of mantras, you know, and just people say, Oh, well, that’s a Jew practice, you know, but face like you. You don’t care about telling them that these practices are not necessary. And at the same time, you don’t go around telling the real radical non dualist you know that they say that there is no practice. He, you don’t care about telling them that practice can be as natural as breathing. So everyone is trying to find a passive and every half day’s valid for that particular individual.
Rick Archer: Yeah, I mean, I sometimes I say, Well, you know, people say, Well, you shouldn’t do any practice because it reinforces the notion of a practice. And I respond well, then you shouldn’t eat because it reinforces the notion of an eater.
Enza Vita: There are the two provenance stories you have to meditate to get in launch and or you don’t have to match site. Those are the those and some, some in some places they tell us Some, you just need to drop the search drop there. Because you already that, you know, like some type of unlock member declaration, I guess, and maybe watch or something, but I guess me, for me it didn’t work. I just traveled the road of suffering ends seeking and studying and and then when they come to an end and and then it dropped. Yeah, and I guess ultimately, you know, awareness, awareness our true nature accepts everything. Yeah. And And if somebody says that practice is needed usually a witness will say yeah, okay. And if somebody says the practice is not needed, awareness is able to embrace paradox will say, sure enough, I only the mind can’t do that. See, and I guess it is the point, if we are in a state where something is as been excluded, where they see the ordinary world or something else, this is a good sign that we probably are still in a dualistic state, even though we might think they will reach their ultimate. Yes.
Rick Archer: I meant to, there was this Ramana Maharshi quote that somebody sent me. And I meant to look it up before this interview, and I forgot. But um, basically, well, first of all, he was fond of using the old saying, it takes a thorn to remove a thorn, you know, and that, you know, even though ultimately, practices might not make sense or be necessary, they have a function at a certain stage. But also, the quote I was referring to was something where he said, It’s very rare individual who is just on the brink of realization, and doesn’t need to do anything, and they’re just kind of fall into it, or, you know, with just some slight guidance or something, but for the vast majority, roughly paraphrasing, but this is what he said, For the vast majority, there are all sorts of things that one might benefit from, and, you know, make progress through. And there goes the word progress, which we can talk about. But, you know, he’s held up as the sort of gold standard of, of spiritual teachers these days. And that’s basically what he said.
Enza Vita: Yeah, I mean, Ramana Maharshi. Basically, you would, you would give a first you’ll give the, I never met him, but I study some of his stuff. And it will give to people the ultimate truth, there is nothing to do, but not everyone could understand immediately that and then one already. Yeah, if that wouldn’t happen, then you would give him other things. He mantras, meditations, and I actually heard a story, I’m not sure how true it is. Somebody told me that he told one of his people that were around, he was being really hard on them, you know, where everybody was allowed to sit around him and he was a very sweet man Ramana Maharshi this this particular disciple, you would always send him to do work and all this sort of stuff, you know, like work for everyone else and never had the chance to meditate. And even the some of the other people, they started thinking, Why are you being a little bit so harsh, you know, on him, and yet, after many years of this guy doing service, and never even sitting to meditate, once he finally was allowed in, and he sat down to meditate, he was right. And bang, it happened. Yeah. Yeah. So you needed he needed that service to others to remove the obstacles and then so everybody finds their own way that I guess you know,
Rick Archer: it’s a good point. Shankara talks about the fact that not everyone is ready for ganja yoga, that the sort of the highest non dual teaching that various types of service and meditation and practices Karma Yoga, different things can purify one to the point where the highest teaching becomes appropriate. And again, you know, people people might hear this and say, Yeah, but you know, that’s there’s nothing to do I mean, why should we go through all these stages purification and all that stuff? It’s all one it’s all nothing is real yada yada yada yada. You remember that? That that thing? And then the science non duality conference that you attended the one of the main points was this based on this Tibetan saying that don’t mistake understanding for realization yes or no? Yeah. And then the second part was Don’t mistake realization for liberation. But I guess we’re dwelling on this because it is sort of a little bit popular common to do this to sort of read a lot of books, get good with the words and then somehow convince yourself that that’s what that you’re actually living what all these words are referring to.
Enza Vita: Yes, yes. Yeah. Um
Rick Archer: well just maybe we’ve covered this point, but we’re just talking about the importance of actual experiential realization, as opposed to some kind of intellectual understanding that can become quite hypnotic. If you’ve read enough books, you can really get this stuff drilled into your head. But it’s not the same.
Enza Vita: Yeah, no, it’s not the same. When you, if this is only intellectually, intellectually understood, it’s not going to remove the separations, it’s going to be just a temporary measure. And eventually, that separation is going to surface again.
Rick Archer: Yeah. So let’s, let’s backtrack a bit. So what sort of listen, your interview with Jerry Katz, and you said a lot of interesting things. But one is that we haven’t told people yet. You left home at the age of 17, to go to Australia. And because you had an aunt and our springs, and you decided to go that you didn’t speak a word of English, and your parents didn’t want you to go, you’re too young and everything, but you insisted. And so finally went
Enza Vita: That confirmed in my village that I was crazy.
Rick Archer: That you were crazy, right.
Enza Vita: Yes,
Rick Archer: yeah. And then you just got odd jobs and washing dishes and this and that, and, and tell the story a little bit about how you eventually kind of like found a spiritual book, and you kind of learned English by studying a spiritual book and looking up words in a dictionary?
Enza Vita: Yeah,
Rick Archer: yes.
Enza Vita: Well, when I was little, one of the, one of the things that I used to do, I used to have two symbols. And I didn’t know what they were. But if you go to my house that that carved in every wall on the roof everywhere, and there were two symbols there, and I kept on drawing them. And I kept on saying to my parents, and my friends have to remember these two symbols, they’re very important. And my mom tells me that I stood, since I started drawing, I started making these things. And I didn’t actually know what they were. And when I got to the spring of 17, I was walking down tall Street, which was the only road didn’t even have asphalt, it was just a dirt road, we just find a little shop. And I was walking down with my cousin and sort of looked on the shop window and there was a book. And on the on the cover of the book, there was one of the symbols that I’ve been drawn, drawn, since I was a little child. And when he and I bought the book,
Rick Archer: or a lotus or something,
Enza Vita: it was a lotus flower. There were two symbols that what I know now to be one was the the lotus flower, the 1000, petal lotus, kept on going on and on and on forever, I would, I would draw it and sort of go off the page. And the other one was geometric shape, which I used to call the diamond. And I’ve got an idea now, what that is. But you know, I know that I brought him back from past lives where I had been in Tibet and India. Yeah. From past lives that I live in. I know that this sounds crazy. To some people that non, you know, some people didn’t know, past lives, you know,
Rick Archer: this audience, I think it doesn’t sound crazy. No, people use the idea. Yeah, although, you know, since we’ve been talking about the kind of the radical non duelists. Some of them say no, that couldn’t be past lives, because there’s no person and so if you’re going to have multiple lives, who is this person that’s having them? That’s not possible. But it that sort of denies the whole notion that there are relative realities, at least apparent relative realities, and that there are subtle relative realities as well as gross. And if the physical body dies, there’s still a subtle body which doesn’t die and can go into another physical body. So seems pretty logical to me.
Enza Vita: Yes, yes.
Rick Archer: And so you remember some of those past lives, so you must have like doing spiritual practices and living spiritual lives and all that?
Enza Vita: Yes, yes. I remember some really hard lives that I lived in. One in particular, austere, a very steep one, I was like, this Saturday living in a mountain and just eating grass so skinny, I couldn’t even tell that where that was men, a woman you know, it was so and another one. Another one that really sort of affected me this life was I was a wandering monk in a group you know that we’d never stayed anywhere and we had nothing and we just bagged and went around. Just Lada and Do prying and devoted to God. And I was a young man and I did everything I was so devoted. I love God so much. And but then, when it was time for me to die, I was lying down I remember lying down on the on the ground, and some of the other monks when near me. And the last few words, were like I said to the old monk, I’ve done everything for God, everything has sacrificed everything. And he’s as never visited me. And I was heartbroken, I died heartbroken, because I’ve done I’ve done everything for his love, and I never got it. And I think that had an effect in this in this life, you know, that surface in my teenage years where there was a bit of rebellion against God.
Rick Archer: While you’re getting it now, though. And it’s interesting, because on God’s time, you know, a human, a human lifetime is the snap of a finger. And so you know, here you are dying. I’ve never gotten God’s love and God is God, patiently just overseeing the universe and, and in the snap of a finger. Here you are, you know, realizing God.
Enza Vita: And on another level in the fresh body. Yeah. And in another level, time and space. It’s all happening at the same time. Exactly. Yeah. So I’m dying in this moment in this place of planning that God is not here.
Rick Archer: Yeah. Speaking of sod, who is the friend of mine who lives in the Himalayas sent me a nice little story said that there’s a beautiful side who in Gangotri, Gangotri is way up in the Himalayas near the source of the Ganges who loves your Buddha at the Gas Pump stuff. He lives in Gangotri year round much of the time with no electricity, his cuccia, which is a little hut, buried in snow, but somehow we find your site and he loves it. So hello to that guy, if he’s watching. It’s cool. So when you had these memories of past lives, was it like you’re walking down the street and suddenly had a memory? Or were you meditating? Or how did these memories come to you?
Enza Vita: Both sometimes they will come in dreams, lucid dreaming. I was I was having that. Since I was a little kid. Sometimes they were like lucid dreaming. And sometime was like, just like memories, like remembering something. You know, like when you remember something from childhood. And it just comes and it’s all you know. And you see the whole thing, you can go in there. And it’s like real, you know, there is no difference. And some, some, some of them came through meditation, meditation retreats and stuff. Yeah.
Rick Archer: Okay, so you’re walking down the street in Alice Springs, and you saw this book, and it had a lotus on it. And you bought the book and started figuring out how to read English. And so how did things progress from there?
Enza Vita: Well, after that, I was on it. And then I moved to Adelaide. And basically, over the years, I flirted and fallen in love with lots of spiritual tradition. And I know that people tell you that you’re meant to stick to one thing. But that wasn’t my case, what happened is, it seemed like the right teacher and the right teaching would appear. And all that I needed to do is stay open, and just work as hard as sincerely as I could. And, and they succeeded. So from and they were very varied, you know, from nada, yoga, to Dzogchen to Sufism, to Tibetan altars, and shamanic things, Aboriginal spirituality, one of my cousins is married to a full blood Aboriginal somehow, I got a little bit of a taste of that. So and it was great. He was actually you know, I was blessed to be able to do that, because he gave me the opportunity to see that one truth that sits at the core of every path, and, and he taught me not to cling to one way of one idea of it, you know, and in some of my past lives, I remember that I’ve done that where I’ve stuck to one idea, one in our grabbed one concept and stuck to it. And I vowed never to do that again. And, and I guess, you know, that has been the gift of being able to see this truth in so many different traditions. Yeah.
Rick Archer: Who was that Saint? Not Ramana Maharshi the guy earlier on in 1800s I forget his name, his famous St. And Kali devotee, but he, he went through and sort of went through the path of great many different traditions and sort of found, you know, went from a to z and each tradition and found that they all lead to the same goal.
Enza Vita: It’s the Many Faces, the many faces of God,
Rick Archer: you know that saying that you should dig one deep hole rather than a dozen shallow holes. Yes, but here’s another way of looking at it. Take a dozen tools to dig one hole. You know. That’s that’s kind of what you did.
Enza Vita: It’s almost like I didn’t do is I didn’t go out of my way. It’s like the teachers will just appear. Some of the teachers will tell you, I tell you, one, just one. We already you know, my Sevenly are popping in different paths, you know, with our job, we got to interview different people to teach and Sekine. And also we did our own practices,
Rick Archer: you publish a magazine or something, don’t you? Yes,
Enza Vita: we’ve been publishing different magazines since 1998. Spiritual magazines. And but for example, one particular teacher was a dervish, a Sufi mystic from Iran, and we met him at vipassana retreat. After vipassana retreat, he was there, he was just wandering around the world like they do. They’re like, similar to the wandering monks of India. And, and we started talking about his love for Rumi and Leo had this dream that he wanted to get a poem of Rumi in the Farsi language and translate it and obviously, we don’t know Farsi. And, and suddenly talking to this guy, we didn’t know it was a dervish or anything like there are so few mistakes. And somehow there was this thing, yes, I love Rumi and I can speak Farsi, right? When can I move in that that’s what he said to us. And he didn’t move in, if he lived in a house for probably six to eight months. And it was amazing. And, you know, being waking up at three o’clock in the morning, because he to teach us different practices. And some of the practices even though we were familiar with some of the Sufi practices from the asmita, in your hand side, we didn’t know about some of these, this particular practices that he was showing us, you know, one was the obvious, you know, the twirling. But there were some other things like some other practices, they were quite secret, and somehow he was passing them on. And it was strange man, in the sense, the dervish is meant to be always very humble, and never show our advanced data. That’s the real thing. Yeah. And so you always, never show, it was always law, this is just a grasp on my master, my teacher, my guru, but then when he spoke to his guru on the phone, is face became luminous, and some time when he was in the backyard, and he thought that nobody was watching. And I would see, his face was luminous, and his eyes was full of love. And, and as soon as you would see me, you would just, oh, I was just watching the tree. And it was not I was lovely. Cool. And then you went back to Iran. And, and he told us amazing story. So what really goes on, and when he was trying, having to cross me to walk four or five hours every day to get to his teacher, and cross a river, you know, and he had to take off his claws and put him over his head and cross the river. And if he got the light, the door of the temple were closed, and you had just done all that for nothing, you know? And, yeah, and it was he was Why saying all these people in the West, you know, the thing, just suffering, doing meditation and stuff, you know, you have to really work hard in those places.
Rick Archer: Yeah. Well, that kind of points that points to an interesting principle or interesting point, which is that the sincerity and the ardency of one search often correlates with the fullness of the results. At least I’ve seen, you know, people who are sort of lackadaisical about it, and whatever, you know, maybe I’ll meditate some day or something or read a book. They don’t get much, but the people who are just on fire usually end up having very much more profound realizations.
Enza Vita: Yeah. You know, people, people tend to worry about the teacher more, you know, is this a good teacher? As she got the right career if they got the right lineage was really nothing to do with the teachers to do with the students are earnest there. Yeah. And I know it’s almost a teacher is there you know, to help me know and me personally, my way of teaching is that I tried to tune in to the person and try to help them for them to discover what they need. Because I feel that some time if a teacher tell someone what to do, it just doesn’t work.
Rick Archer: That’s interesting point about that. It’s not so much the teacher as it is that the student good. I think both are important. But it’s, there’s a story from the Mahabharata where Arjuna, the great warrior, had this great archery teacher and his Archer teacher was supposed to be the best and, and he made the teacher promise him that he would make him Arjuna, the best archer in the world. And but the archer teacher had this other student named Dhruva. And Drew view was very sincere and dedicated student and he kept getting better and better and better at archery and to the point where he was beating our Juna and I just said, Hey, teacher, you made me this promise, you gotta get rid of this guy. So the teacher had to abide by its promise. So he sent drove your way. And Derby, built a statue of the teacher, and just worshipped the statue and dedicated himself to the statue and kept practicing archery, and got to the point where he was really good, you know, way better, just from the having the statue as his teacher, but it was really his determination as a student that yielded the results.
Enza Vita: Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. After realization, there is definitely an energy that comes to the body of the realized individual. But this energy has nothing to do with a teacher, it’s not something that you can turn it on and off. And what I’ve noticed is that this energy sometimes is very strong. And and actually, when is very strong come into this body. Leo can’t even sit next to me, can’t even sleep in the same bed, it just upsets him too much in our like, stirs him up. So he doesn’t sit on the other side of the couch. Again, but it’s nothing to do with it, which is not a conscious thing. And I’ve noticed that this energy seems to have seems to respond to the openness of the other to this energy. And some time I look at someone and my eyes starts watering, they feel really hot. And I know that there is this energy, but I know that he’s almost the other person that is drawing it out. Nothing to do with me really, honestly, nothing. That’s pure truth. And it reminds me a bit like probably women that breastfed realize to relate to this. When I was in my 20s, and I had my child and I was breastfeeding him. The child was in another room. And as soon as I heard the child crying, the milk started flowing. Oh, it’s nothing to do. And actually what? So it seems funny, but it works like that. It’s not like the mother things are now I have to feed the babies just in beyond. It’s just spontaneous. Any works the same way with this energy.
Rick Archer: Funny story about the restaurant. Remember the restaurant? Oh, you want to tell it just for fun? Sure, sure.
Enza Vita: Well, when I was actually breastfeeding, I like I like to go out, I like to seek coffee shop and look at people. And so I’ll take my baby Jonathan. And, and, and then if he needed to be fed, I’ll just feed him. And so I was having my coffee and the baby cry. And so I get him on my breast. And so the mucus starting to flow, because he’s crying. But before I got put in my breast milk, shoot out a couple of meters to the table of the people next door. It was quite embarrassing.
Rick Archer: Now the principle here obviously, is that it’s the openness and willingness of the student that elicits the giving from the teacher. Yes, that’s the principle.
Enza Vita: And it’s not from the teacher is the giving from that divine impulse that wants to awaken anybody that is ready to be awakened. Yeah, it’s just a vehicle. She can’t turn it on, you know, it’s not as if you’re gonna go Oh, I like you. And now I’m going to give you this energy doesn’t work like that at all. It’s like
Rick Archer: a reservoir of water, great big reservoir, I mean, if you put a drinking straw up to it, not very much water can flow through if you put a bigger pipe up to it, then more water. If you put a great big huge, you know, pipe, then a lot of water can flow. So so the reservoir is the same, but a lot depends on how big the pipe is, so to speak, how, how receptive the student is,
Enza Vita: and the road All of the teacher really is to try to be out of the way as much as possible. Not to not to, to open up to this energy and let her do what he wants to do instead of trying to direct it.
Rick Archer: Yeah. So, so this brings up a beautiful point, which is that, you know, what is the teacher but rather but just divine consciousness? A vehicle we could say, through which divine consciousness can flow unimpeded, you know, you just said, out of the way, be out of the way. And most of most people are kind of in the way of divine consciousness, they’re, they’re not a really obstacle free conduit, you know, through which divine consciousness can flow and express.
Enza Vita: Yeah, and, and it’s now at hand in this process, that it’s not as if I realization, suddenly, you know, I have to be the perfect conduit for God, you know, you just, you just, you just learn and you keep on stretching, and you keep on growing, there’s never ending to the process.
Rick Archer: Yeah. That’s kind of what we’re talking about in the very beginning, that, in a way, realization, self realization is the beginning. And after that, then the vehicle keeps getting refined, purified.
Enza Vita: Yeah, yeah. And you’re not in a way, while at the beginning of our spiritual journey, the progress if we want to call it that is, is assessed by the degree of, of inner expansion. In the as we get into progressively more subtle in a territory, for lack of another word, then the progress is assessed. With difficulty because it requires it’s what actually happens is the dissolution of the self in, in, in the absolute small,
Rick Archer: right? Yes, yeah. That
Enza Vita: of the small self, into the divine. And, and there are degrees, you know, and this is, this is the job, I guess, of after the realization of our transcendence. The, what some people call purification on the vehicle, and it can take many years, the entire lifetime, and maybe there is never ending two degrees, that you can actually dissolve more and more into the divine so that there is nothing left.
Rick Archer: So why do you think that in some spiritual circles, progressive development is a dirty word? You know, why? Why do some people have a problem with?
Enza Vita: What they have problems?
Rick Archer: You know what I mean? Well, I mean, some people say, Oh, you’re progressive and other. I’m not progressive. I don’t have a progressive orientation.
Enza Vita: Yeah. Well, it’s what we talked before, you know, we are awareness. And as awareness, there is nothing we need to do. But unless this is been directly realized, it’s not going to do any good. It’s just just a game we’re playing. It’s just, but it’s also part of the journey, you know, we all been there.
Rick Archer: And is there ever has there ever been anyone who has directly realized awareness and embodied it to the greatest possible extent that it can be embodied? Is that even possible, much less precedent? I don’t think I mean,
Enza Vita: I don’t I think it’s an ongoing thing. I don’t think any human being can actually do that. You know, I haven’t done my realization was about eight years ago, I haven’t done really much teaching apart the ones that directly have communicated with me three miles, and I’ve done six weeks course. My mainly to test my different practices that I had. And the reason for that is in some traditions, and I believe in that is that after Realization, you need to be they tell you, you need to be at least 10 years. Yeah. maturing. And, you know, and I think some some people they get realization, they transcendence that they immediately start teaching. Right. And I think it can be a bit unsettling because I’ve changed so much since since when it happened seven years ago. You know, at the beginning, I was a little bit radical, I guess. There’s nothing to do. Yes, but I’ve mellowed Yeah. Yeah. And that comes with experience and maturity of this energy. Yeah.
Rick Archer: Yeah. We’ll talk more about as we go along in this conversation, we’ll talk more about you know, spiritual maturation and you know, the what qualifies one to start teaching whether some people might be trying to teach prematurely. But a question just came in, why don’t what you want to read to you, then from London asks, You have talked a bit about lucid dreaming. I have also had a lot of lucid dreaming as a child and always wondered how it was different from waking reality. In later years, I realized that perhaps the exploration of lucid dreams can be a tool to explore reality. For example, in the lucid dreaming state, I will often wonder at the source of the reality of the dream, do you think that lucid dreaming can be a tool to be used on the path to Enlightenment? And if so, how might this be the case?
Enza Vita: Absolutely. Lucid dreaming is a very valuable tool on the Path of Awakening. And there are some traditions which I’ve studied, like Xiao Chen, where it’s a big part of waking up and mainly because we can get a glimpse that we can get a glimpse of our nature easier in the in a lucid dreaming than we can. Because more or less, the mind is out of the way. And it’s more directly accessible. And And also, when, when we start having regular, lucid dreaming, we start realizing that there’s no difference between a lucid dream and ordinary life, you know, it’s, it’s the same. It’s all one thing. It’s all one consciousness.
Rick Archer: The most powerful and dramatic awakening I ever had was in a dream actually. really profound. They
Enza Vita: tend to dismiss them, we tend we tend to dismiss the dreams. But in some tradition, like what I just mentioned, Xiao Chen, they’re actually used very much for unfoldment and awakening.
Rick Archer: Yeah. It would seem that and see if you agree with this, that what the reason that is the case is that during dreams, or during even during sleep, if sleep is wakeful, that there’s a much more innocent state or in others much less tendency to be controlling or gripping.
Enza Vita: Yes, yes. The mind is
Rick Archer: our fluid more malleable?
Enza Vita: Yes, definitely. Absolutely. Yeah.
Rick Archer: So would you actually advocate somehow culturing, the ability to dream lucidly? Is that as a practice?
Enza Vita: As I said, I haven’t got yet much practice in teaching I have a few students and that I work with,
Rick Archer: do you somehow enable them or encourage them to do lucid dreaming?
Enza Vita: Actually, what actually do I actually tune in to what they need, tuning to what they need? And and actually help them to discover for themselves what they need for the next step? I found that the best way.
Rick Archer: So it may be everybody, but it may be something else. Yes, yes. In your book, and I think maybe also, in your talk with Jerry Katz, I heard you talking a lot about effort versus non effort and how, as you understand meditation, it’s a very effortless natural process. In fact, you were talking about studying with some Zen teacher and the Zen teacher was talking about controlling your mind and not letting your mind wander and space out. And you were saying, Yeah, but my natural inclination is just to sort of relax into a vast settled state. Let’s talk about the role of effort in a practice or effortlessness.
Enza Vita: Yes. Okay. When I was attending, I’ve done many meditation retreats in the past with different traditions. And so I guess, if we start talking with that, and even with the one that I did here, the six weeks, you know, sometime, you look at a purse and they’re all very genuine. But you know, you see some that are sitting there, very rigid. The faces is really hard. And you think they’re trying to do something right. You can see it in the face, just trying to nail something down. And then on the other side, you have some meditators that are really loose and relaxed. Still, most of them fall asleep. And they’ve got this strange smile on the face anything, oh, they must be having good dreams. There is something in common with these two types, the minute that you brush them or touch them on the shoulders, or there is a sudden noise in the room, they jump out startled. And this is, this is to me, it’s proof that they were not here. They were just fabricating something in the mind. The first one was fabricating some, some really hard thing to hold to grab, and some state, some Mindsight and the other one that we’re fabricating something nicer. But it just proves that we’re not here. And the old practice of meditation practice is to be here, if you have to come back from somewhere, then it’s not, it’s not really it might be good for concentration purposes, or might be good for relaxation, you know, what I call snoring meditation, that’s fine. This, this run, and but you know, a person can meditate like that for many years and not get any progress, you know, progress, you know. And so I guess the practice is, our awareness is composed of two main qualities. One side is the luminosity, what we call the cognizing aspect, the intelligence that allows us to notice everything that is happening. And the other side of awareness is what in some tradition is called emptiness, or relaxation, and openness, that allows everything to be in it. And if we strive too much on one direction, we become controlling of our experiences. And we tend to fall into thoughts because of it. And if we strive too much on the direction of the emptiness, we become too vague, spiced out, Joel. And awareness is neither controlling, or dull, like a drug induced state, it’s like brightly alert, and also relaxed, because there is nothing we’re trying to do. So that luminosity, that cognizing aspect, broadly alert to everything that is happening, but also deeply relaxed. Because there is not the we’re trying to nail down basically. And so this is what I call in the book, instant presence, where, you know, for example, this moment, you know, for example, for do that, everybody’s hearing that right, now, I come we are hearing that, because in each one of us, there is this wakefulness that is always present independent of our thinking. Now, this is the secret, and if you know they all secret of all this entire interview of all the entire book, can get this you can go home,
Rick Archer: pay attention, pay attention, pay
Enza Vita: attention. This is it. This moment of pure wakefulness, if it’s left as it is, it is pure awareness, our natural state is that clause. But if this moment of pure wakefulness moves towards the thought and emotion or judgment, it becomes our ordinary mind, which also perceives, but now is split in duality, subject object. So in our day to day life, what do we do? We are constantly chasing thoughts, we’re constantly judging everything, right? So, the practice of instant presence is basically of any practice that does that is to reverse this thing of the mind or what he does, and because the mind existence depend on this continue movement, because awareness, arrest is your true nature, awareness and movement is an ordinary mind. So we want to reverse that. And we want to just rest like this moment, for example. We just rest in this moment, and we are aware of sitting in the chair, maybe we can aware, we are aware of sounds happening around us. Now we don’t move from sound to sound, we’re not trying to nail anything. It’s better to have your eyes open. I know that in some meditation, you close your eyes, but for this, we want to be able to do it all the time, not just on on the meditation cushion. When we’re walking, when we’re eating or whatever. We want to open up to everything. It’s almost like a 360 degree opening as much as we can And, and also, we want to be fully relaxed, the right balance is probably 5050. If you go one way you become too controlling, if you go the other way, you become too dull. the right balance is broadly alert and deeply relaxed. And you can actually adjust that in yourself. And there are some different little practices, you know, for example, if you start becoming dull, you just a sharp and deep wakefulness aspect by, you know, being more bright, and maybe this is like, put your body a bit more straight. If you’re starting to become too controlling, just allow more relaxation in, you know, he feels like a bit like a sponge being filled with water, and maintain the balance. And obviously, because our mind is always actually, if, because awareness is always used to go and become the mind. At first, we might be able to maintain this balance for a few minutes or seconds. But that’s right, we keep on going back until this becomes longer and longer. And and this is basically the practice, this is all we’re doing. And we do it with the eyes open because we want to be able to do it. Driving, it’s a nice, you’re an excellent driver, because you’re very alert. And also it makes you a nicer driver. Because you’re relaxed, you’re not abused any product cutting you off or anything like that.
Rick Archer: Did you practice something of this nature, yourself prior to realization? Or is this something that you kind of came up with to help people?
Enza Vita: Okay? What happened to us I was, this was probably four or five years before realization, and I’ve done that other practices. And at that time, I was doing the breath meditation at the Zen type of meditation. And, and one day, I just heard a sound in in the valley, this meditation center was in beautiful part of Adelaide, Adelaide Hills, I heard a dog barking. And somehow it felt like that dog was barking within myself. And then I heard another sound somebody coughed in the room. And again, you know, and suddenly was like, I was the spice that contained all the sounds that were arising. And so what I did, you only lasted a very short time. But what I did, I tried to repeat that by opening up to the sounds around myself. So it was like, it was like I was being guided. And also I was having dreams towards this technique. And I never really encountered, I had encountered other varieties of it. And actually, it was only in the last couple of years that I’ve met this as Dzogchen master, deeply enlightened man. And II actually has some not like this tactic, but a variation. And when I talked to him, he actually said, Oh, you must have been in Tibet with us, you know, you’re one of us. Yeah. So it was a variation of what you was already teaching. Not quite exactly the same. And he was amazed that well, actually wasn’t amazed that somehow I got it. You know, I told I told him that I had some Tibetan teachers that were teaching me in that period.
Rick Archer: There’s a Vedic saying, Be easy to us with gentle effort.
Enza Vita: Yes, yes. And exactly, absolutely.
Rick Archer: And when I learned to meditate, back in the 60s, the principle of it was that it had to be effortless. And that effort would only interfere with the process, because effort effort tends to sort of agitate the mind and keep it keep it from settling and becoming this, you know, settling down becoming vast. And, and also, there’s this principle that the mind does have a natural tendency to seek a field of greater happiness, and that the more settled state is more charming, and more more fulfilling to the mind. So if, if you’re making an effort, then you prevent yourself from settling into that. But if you Yes, if you proceed effortlessly, then you keep encountering greater and greater and greater charm. And so the mind kind of naturally moves in that direction without having to force Yes, it’s kind of like the difference between if you want to keep a dog at your door, you can either chain it up and the dog is straining against the chain, or you can put some food there and the dog just comes and sits at the door.
Enza Vita: Yes, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And we must remember that the mind is not like the enemy. The mind is actually awareness in movement. Awareness in movement And there is only one thing one force and awareness. Arrest is our natural state awareness and movement is our ordinary mind. And so it’s not the enemy
Rick Archer: through the physiology to it’s, it’s unhealthy and unnatural for the physiology to be hyperstimulated all the time, you know, there might be situations in which it needs to be to respond to something, but one becomes habituated, sometimes if there’s constant stress, and the you know, the whole blood chemistry is thrown off, and there’s just this constant agitation in the body, which is unnatural and unhealthy. And it’s much more natural for the body to be in a sort of state of ease and equilibrium, and function in that in that condition. And so I think what you’re talking about is something which might be able to inculcate that kind of style of functioning.
Enza Vita: Yes, yes, absolutely. Yeah. You’re right.
Rick Archer: However, you know, the way you presented it, you know, you said, Well, you could be in this, not in this sort of, you know, you can be in this state, and that is self realization, at least a brief glimpse of it. But as soon as the thoughts percolate up, then you get drawn off. And so that implies that it’s very delicate at first or very, very tenuous, yes. And that might be stabilized in some way.
Enza Vita: And the stabilization happens, by every time we find ourselves, we are somewhere else with our thoughts, we just bring it back, no judgment, we don’t put any judgment, all I should have done that I spaced out, whatever. And also, the moment that you remember to come back, you’re already back. So there is no effort. So it’s just like, little drops, little drops, little moments of wakefulness, and then another and then another, and they get longer and longer. And then the old thing you know, right now, most people we have this, this thing where we default position is the mind thinking, judging everything. And eventually, they all think switches and the default position is the mind to rest, you know, awareness or rest. And, and we still can use the mind is not as if we become some mush, and we can’t do anything. We can’t, we can’t function in the world and we can’t feed ourselves and we can’t work and we can’t look after our family. Not at all, we we actually become a lot more efficient, I guess in life, you know, more efficient, more alive, more connected.
Rick Archer: There’s a verse in The Gita, which goes yoga karma sukoshi Koan, which means yoga is skill in action. And yoga, of course, means union. And so the the principle there is that if you can get established in a unified state, then on that foundation, you can actually be much more skillful in action than than not than other way. Absolutely.
Enza Vita: Yeah, absolutely. There are some things after Realization, I’m not sure whether this is something that happens to everybody that I’ve noticed that seem to deteriorate memories, somehow, is like, I find myself, you know, my job is quite detailed. You know, with publishing and stuff, and things that I’ve done for years and years and years, every time I do it, again, that action, it feels like, I’m doing it for the first time. Something like that, it’s getting a little bit better. I was really shocking. When it first happened. I mean, I was having weird things, you know, Leo knows, you know, we will be meeting in town. And usually we’d like to go to a music shop, and I would like to sit in a coffee shop, again, watching people. And then after a while, you’ll come back, and, you know, wait for me to get up to join him. And I’ll just be looking at him. And to me, honestly, he was like, I didn’t know him. Was this man looking at me with this strange, man. It’s true. It’s absolutely true. And, and he’s looking at me, and, and he’s thinking, you know, I seen this fight. You know, after a while he was used to it. It’s like the minute he moved out of my consciousness. Then he was like, when he came back here, I had to readjust to recognize him. It’s really weird. I should
Rick Archer: have had a little sign. Hi, I’m Leo. I’m your partner.
Enza Vita: The old man looking at me.
Rick Archer: Well, I think this is just a phase though. Right? I mean,
Enza Vita: it is a phase.
Rick Archer: Yeah. It’s it’s an integration phase
Enza Vita: news much anymore. It’s not anything.
Rick Archer: Yeah. I mean, a lot of people Byron Katie, you know, she had to learn how to brush her teeth again and stuff after her awakening. Yeah, Eckhart Tolle wasn’t good for much other than sitting on a park bench for a couple of years, you know. So sometimes even when the transcendent, especially when it comes on very suddenly and fully, you know, it can take quite some time to function again.
Enza Vita: Yes, yes, absolutely. I didn’t get that bad. Mainly because I’ve got a very demanding job, I’ve got more than one job, I’ve got 30 different hats that I have to wear every day. And, and so in a way, it was like a rude shock that had to, I had to, I had to make it work. And so I had notes everywhere, trying to remember things and stuff like that. And I think that in a way was good. Because he, he got me to be a bit more integrated, you know, integrate, yes, it’s good.
Rick Archer: I mean, if you had been able to just sit in the garden and stare at the flowers,
Enza Vita: I want you to do that you wanted to do that. I really, I just wanted to go into a cabin in the middle of nowhere, and live the rest of my life that I realized now that there would have been a very selfish thing to do. But that’s how I felt.
Rick Archer: Yeah, divine had other plans for you.
Enza Vita: Yeah. Yes. And you’re not when when you’re asked to descend, you might refuse, you know, and eventually, you know, it’s like, you come down, you know, partly because of the love that you feel for the beloved. And partly because you know, that if you continue to resist you, you might be kicked out here again. Yeah. I think there is no choice. There’s no, you know, this is part of the plan. There’s no other way.
Rick Archer: That’s another verse from the Gita. Yogastha kuru karmani, established in yoga, perform action. So it’s not just like, we get established in yoga and just veg out, you know, but not have to pay. And because I mean, when she say, I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but true realization is not. It’s something that’s going to be there under all conditions, you know, whether whether you are, you know, doing something driving in heavy traffic, or sitting looking at the flowers it has, and if it can’t be maintained under all conditions, then it’s not really true realization or not really, a mature realization.
Enza Vita: Absolutely, yeah. As to be lived. In fact, like, I’ve met this amazing monks from different tradition. The ones that I’m talking about right now, I’m thinking Tibetan ones, and, you know, they must sit and meditate for hours. And when the bell ring, they are fully here alert to get up and on with their tasks, there is no adjusting. There is nothing there just in the world. And they are so very efficient. You know, some, some time in meditation freeze to see people in after the two, couple hours of meditation, they come out and they all space in, you know, soft, they have to readjust it. Well, there’s none of that is just here, here, here, fully integrated. And that’s where you notice, you know, some of these long term meditators I met this beautiful monk, that he had been a monk since he was three years old. And he was now like, I think it was 97. And it was just amazing. He couldn’t speak a word of English, but we still communicate. It was lovely. He was a lovely man.
Rick Archer: Speaking of monks, he told the story about how when you were a little girl used to Well, you told me earlier in this interview, how you used to float above the rooftops in a bubble or something like that. And then I heard you tell a story where you actually met an old monk Yeah, who said that when he was a young monk he used to in his meditation is he used to see this little girl floating in a bubble tell us that?
Enza Vita: Yes. This was like, Norbu. That is time Miss as Dzogchen teacher, and we were invited to interview him would have been done or 345 years ago, maybe. And in winter, and naturally, Leo knows all the stories because I told him right and, and we were sitting there and he was doing his two hours talk in the morning, and he starts talking about this. When you know when when he was a mind and he was in meditation and you would always see this little girl in a bubble dressed with this velvet dress velvet green dress with little daisies at the bottom. Well that was my dress. My auntie used to make all my dresses. We never bought shot shop dresses. And I had this my favorite dress was this velvet, dark velvet green dress with daisies at the bottom and And when we heard that, you know, I was sitting closer to him. So it was the front and he was sitting a little bit at the back. And I turned to look at him and he was like, what’s going on?
Rick Archer: So this monk had experienced that back 3040 years ago when you were actually having the floating in a bubble experience.
Enza Vita: Yeah. But then, you know, Thomas Spicer said before, it’s all it’s all, you know, it’s not really linear. It’s not linear. So that’s nice. Yeah, it’s interesting now, and that’s why I felt a very strong resonance with this teacher. Before we met him. We had never met him before. And I kept on seeing his picture in various Shambala magazine or whatever Leo buys. And I kept on saying to Leah, it’s like he’s calling me from the picture. It’s like, there is a connection. And there was a connection. Yeah. That’s
Rick Archer: cool. I heard you say that. You always had this feeling like, in this lifetime, you were just destined to be realized it was just gonna happen. And you were pretty, you’re kind of kind of sloppy as a spiritual practitioner compared to Leo, for instance, and compared to some other people, you know, you’re just like, I meditate, not meditate. Whatever. Yes. It’s gonna happen. Yes, yes.
Enza Vita: Yes. And it happens. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, knows, you know, it’s like, we’ve been together for over 30 over 30 years. And I’ve always told him that and he sounded, if somebody heard me sounded, she’s like, you know, she doesn’t want to do anything. She thinks. So now, she’s going to be special to get this thing. But it wasn’t. It wasn’t like that at all. It wasn’t like, a feeling. It felt like this lifetime is my turn. I don’t know.
Rick Archer: premonition or something.
Enza Vita: Yeah. And, and, and I know, I’ve worked really, really hard in past lives. What did you do? And
Rick Archer: you paid? Yes.
Enza Vita: Yeah. And it was just an internal feeling. It wasn’t in my mind. He wasn’t more in my heart. That told me. Just this time is your time.
Rick Archer: Okay, so we’ve alluded a lot to your awakening to your Realization. And we’ve kind of done that in a way that takes just sort of takes it for granted that everybody knows exactly what you experienced when you had this realization, but I don’t think they necessarily do. So. You know, tell us about the actual experience of this realization that we’ve been discussing.
Enza Vita: Okay. No more drinks.
Rick Archer: We’ll bring her a drink. But don’t make it. She’s had enough coffee.
Enza Vita: Yes, I feel. Okay. What actually happened? Lee, I don’t need, I don’t need a drink. What actually happened is that I was doing this type of meditation. Well, what I now call instant presence. And I’ve been doing it for several years. At this meditation retreat, a local meditation retreat. We still meditate. Choose then Saturday off a day, and then once a month, we stop for four days retreat, and then seven days retreat every second month. We did that for a long time. And I think Leo’s gonna be the tree. That’s okay. So, yeah, so anyway, and so I’d been doing that for a while, and, and a few months before the realization happened, here is with the drink rob banks.
Rick Archer: Thank you. Thanks.
Enza Vita: My mouth is really dry. I must have been talking a lot. And so in the last few months before realization happened, yeah. I started getting lots of energy in my body. Some time the energy was so strong, it was shaking the body. And naturally, I told that meditation teacher and she said, this is a good sign, you know, keep going, keep going. But why she knew that I was doing something different than what she was teaching. And while at first she was a little bit like, well, I don’t know because she didn’t know about this particular thing, and she thought it would be lost in the mind, as somehow she knows that I was doing Something different. Anyway, she said, this is a good sign, keep going. And, and then we did this seven days to retreat. And it was the last day of the retreat in the morning. And so I set for the last session, and then we will have lunch and then everybody will go home. And the minute that I set within, like maybe first few minutes, I started feeling this. First is intense energy coming, coming up. And he was so strong that he actually escaped me. And then close by us again, and I saw this what I can only describe us a black reflective surface. My attention was caught by it. And when I looked at it still whole happening on the on the on the inner. I just I just realized that I was watching myself moving. But the self wasn’t the self that I knew myself to be wasn’t this self. And it was something so big and terrifying. Terrifying. That my mind just find it. I just I just couldn’t. Even now. I can’t actually even talk about it. Really? I just I just say it was like dark radiance.
Rick Archer: You can’t talk about it. Because it’s hard to describe it. You can’t talk about it, because it brings up feelings of that terror that you experience. Oh,
Enza Vita: no, no, it’s just I don’t know. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Very hard to describe. It doesn’t make sense. A dark, reflective surface, right? That’s the size of arch. And yet, there was so much in terms really? Yeah, yeah. And anyway, all I remember, the next thing that I remember was the bell that announced the walking meditation 10 minutes and, and I heard the bell and then, you know, I didn’t even know what was. And I noticed my hat. My hand I didn’t know it was my hand, not as a hand move, you know, all this sort of stuff. We have stuff. And but then somehow, it’s almost even though I didn’t know what was going on. I, my body actually got out by itself as if I had an intelligent, independent from the brain, which wasn’t there at that moment. And the body got up and went outside. And, and then slowly, you know, I started seeing everything appeared bright and, and there was just love everywhere, and disunity. And I sat there, I didn’t, I didn’t go to do the walking meditation. And then lunch came. And there was this thing where we prepared lunch interns and this lady that had meditated there for many years. Like, she came out. And she asked me a question, because I had done the salad the day before. And so she wanted to know what I put something and, and I human, my words come out of my mouth. And she seemed to accept that she doesn’t think there’s anything wrong with me. So obviously, I still look normal to her. And she didn’t say oh, what’s wrong with you? Or nothing, you know, and the words come out without me thinking of anything, you know, but themselves. And I wanted to talk about it to the meditation teacher with many people. And so we decided to go home. And obviously I told Leo on the way home and he was like, Well, was it what was it said, I don’t know. My mind can’t even comprehend what it was. And then what it was
Rick Archer: going on even on the way home right? This isn’t just variants which came in when
Enza Vita: he was he was going on, but by nighttime, it was almost gone. And so, so I didn’t think anything of it because you know, I’ve always had experiences like this and they always had a beginning middle and hand and I thought this was an odd one of the same kind. And, and then I remember that night I started feeling really sick in bed and started coughing up this UPC stuff and I was I was sick for about almost a month. I was in bed and few times during The teacher the meditation teacher rang me because she will, because we were always there. And I couldn’t even talk to her I was coughing and coughing and coughing, and then one morning, smoking Miriam never, never smoked or never ate. And then sort of, uh, one morning, I woke up and we had a dog and I ran my dog, and we decided to take him for a walk. Because I was feeling better. And Leo, Leo was walking in front. And we live in a sort of a hilly in the foothills of Adelaide. So it’s a bit early, and I remember that he was walking in front with the dog. And, and I’ve just looked over the valley like this. And as soon as I did that, suddenly, it was like, I saw that everything that I was looking was all inside me. Like those mini experiences that I already had, but this one was a bit different, because there was no actual separation between what I was seeing, and our person seeing them, sort of, it’s like, everything was arising and dissolving, and everything was me, and everywhere looked towards me, so that was pop. While this sounds synth sounds fantastic. Also, what’s the thing? This has always been like this, the end, I never noticed, I could have missed it. And I did remember that when I was a child, I was seeing things like that. And just I pretended I didn’t. Because for fitting in, you know, so it wasn’t like a fantastic thing. Like some of the experiences that I had. Previously. They were fantastic. This was like felt very ordinary, very, very, sort of, you know, like, almost like when you see those, those things that change, you know, they go to two images, and you go, Oh, there it is, you know, and that’s how it was, you know, and it was, how could I miss this look everything and, you know, I rushed to tell Leo and and he thought, Oh, she’s still sick. She’s not like incense because I couldn’t find the words to describe what I was seeing. I was saying, I am everywhere. You thought I’m confused. Like spice doubt. I’m everywhere. And this is what also told the teacher a few days after and she was like, Oh, what do you mean the eye everywhere? You know, and she couldn’t understand that first. Yeah. What I was. I didn’t have the words to explain it. And yeah, and that’s what happened.
Rick Archer: That month of sickness was some kind of purging that had to take place before the realization could happen. Some kind of a prepper preparations.
Enza Vita: I think so because I, the doctor came at home and gave me all this stuff. And I was taking the antibiotics and all this. And they were not doing anything. Yeah. They were not doing anything until I was done. Until you know, coughed up all this stuff.
Rick Archer: This kind of stuff has happened to other people. St. Francis of Assisi went through something like that he got really sick before his awakening. Yeah. And if you ever watched the movie, brother, sun, Sister Moon, he almost died. And then when he came out of it, he was like, big change. And there are a lot of other stories in various spiritual traditions of people going through a real intense catharsis, you know, physical stuff. Yeah, and then when they work through that, then boom, there’s clarity. Yeah,
Enza Vita: yeah. Yeah, I find it a body. For me. Personally. The bodies were the one that gets affected usually.
Rick Archer: Yeah. Well, it’s the instrument through which this is lived. Is it not?
Enza Vita: Yeah, yeah. Well, some people I’ve talked to some other people they it’s more like the mind or the depression maybe and stuff like that. I never really had any of that it’s always my body that seems to suffer. getting adjusted to the energy you know,
Rick Archer: well, even if it’s their mind and depression and so on that there are neuro physiological correlates to that you know, there are things happening in their brain chemistry and whatnot that correlate with depression so but but basically the point I’m bringing out is that I think that the well as Jesus said, the body is the temple of the soul and it’s the the brain and nervous system and body are the instrument through which we live realization and you can’t as Jesus again said, you can’t pour new wine into old wineskins you know, the, the wine skin, so to speak, the vessel has to be fit to hold the new wine.
Enza Vita: Yes, yes, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, that’s what happens. And Ramana Maharshi said, it’s like an elephant entering a paint. Good point, something along those lines, right. Sometimes he does a little bit of damage. Yeah,
Rick Archer: or else the dam has to be expanded to accommodate the elephant
Enza Vita: Yeah, let’s find Yeah, yeah,
Rick Archer: maybe it has to be
Enza Vita: taken apart. I know why it’s good for people that this stuff happens for some of us that has happened slowly and gradually, as expanded their ability to be able to contain this energy. Yeah, I know some people that get it all at once, without any preparation, burned them out, sometimes you really trust them. I’ve got a friend, she works. She’s a nurse, in a mental hospital in Adelaide. And she’s sort of tuned in to spiritual stuff. And she tells me, a lot of people there, they’ve had premature awakening, and they couldn’t contain an interesting Kundalini awakening. And, you know, and she’s, they’re sort of trying to help as best as she could. But unfortunately, they just fill them up with drugs. I know
Rick Archer: it’s a shame, because and that’s what all these traditions like our Veda and yoga and whatnot are about, they’re about, you know, making the physiology capable of sustaining awakening. And you can actually end up in a mental hospital if it’s not capable. So a lot of times those things are dismissed by some spiritual seekers as just being a fixation on the physical or a district, you know, they’re not really going for the essence of the spiritual teaching, but they’re really part of the package and having having a value for being able to sustain the shock of awakening.
Enza Vita: Yes, absolutely. Totally agree with that. Yeah, that has been my experience, you really need to look after the body right. Now, I have to really be careful what I put into this body, especially when there is some abundance of energy, because it does all sorts of things. Yeah. The body.
Rick Archer: Yeah. And it’s a shame about your friend who works in that mental hospital shame for those people who have had Kundalini awakenings and so on or ended up in a hospital, because if they had the proper care, under the in the hands of someone who knew what they were doing, you know, what has happened to them? What could be experienced as a great blessing. It is a great blessing, but they’ve just fallen into the wrong hands.
Enza Vita: Yes. And some people awakened without doing absolutely anything. Yeah, they just, it just happened to them. And I guess that’s what threw them out of balance. They didn’t even understand what was going on there had nothing not into so they just went to the doctor, and they were put on drugs, I guess.
Rick Archer: And you know, I think it’s becoming actually more common these days, because awakening, is some sort of epidemic going on in the world. Yeah, really, in terms of more and more people awakening it is
Enza Vita: I agree. Yeah, I’ve seen that. Definitely there is a shift in consciousness, things are happening, a lot of people are waking up, probably because to counterbalance the some of the stuff that is happening in the world.
Rick Archer: Yeah, exactly. I think that’s an important point. And so as a culture, you know, as a medical, you know, the medical community and all that really have to gain an understanding of this, because they’re going to encounter it more than more and more. And yes. And it’s happening. I mean, there are more and more people. I mean, the next interview I’m going to do after this one, two weeks from now, I’m skipping next week will be with a woman named Joan Harrigan, who has a cool place in Tennessee, which is a US state called Kundalini care. And, and she actually a number of my friends have gone there, and she helps people who are having a Kundalini awakening whose Kundalini might be misdirected, or blocked or something, rather, and helps them sort of get it going in the right direction, so that they can blossom into realization without difficulties and problem problems.
Enza Vita: Yeah, I’ve heard from one of my teachers that at one meditation retreat, actually, even through meditation, sometimes people can have seven in too fast, and they had to be taken to the hospital. But fortunately, in that case, you know, the teacher sort of was looking after them. In the mental hospital full of drugs.
Rick Archer: Now, that’s an important point too, because it mean, on the one hand, there are people who have spontaneous awakenings, they don’t know what it is, and so on, so forth. But then there are other people who are spiritual seekers. And they get all gung ho about awakening, and maybe they start doing three hours of fast Pranayama or, you know, just, you know, some kind of intense thing and they end up blowing fuses. So you have to have the safety first principle when you’re approaching this stuff.
Enza Vita: Absolutely, yeah. You need to know what you’re doing. Yeah, I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t. Personally, I wouldn’t necessarily play around with Kundalini. Without knowing exactly what you’re doing is a bit
Rick Archer: can be very dangerous. It can be very dangerous. Yeah. I mean, I think it was Gopi Krishna who wrote a book about Kundalini, his own experience, and it was, you know, just hellacious the stuff he went through. So, you know, in a way we’re, it’s we’re playing I would fire it’s divine fire. But there’s a real merit to having the proper guidance and proceeding in a, in a sensible way.
Enza Vita: Yeah, I, when I was young, you know, sort of in my 20s, one of the things that I actually explored was some practice that was meant to awaken the Kundalini. And I immediately started having experiences, you know, like, this fire coming up onto my head, and I thought that my head was going to explode. And as soon as that happened, the teacher came there and was trying to help me, but it was like, then I think, as crushed down and happened a few times, and that night, I had a dream, and it was a lucid dream. And a teacher gave me like, a blob thing, you know, and I started blowing into it. And it was a snake. At first, it was a, I was blowing up this toys knife, but then all of a sudden, this snake become alive. And I couldn’t control it anymore. It was a huge Python. And to me, that was, you know, the teacher was, was saying, Don’t play with this. And I stopped, I stopped. Yeah,
Rick Archer: that’s it. That’s interesting. And of course, snake, snake and Kundalini, that
Enza Vita: you run now you think you’re just in control. But once the Python awakens, you won’t be able to contain it. Just, yeah,
Rick Archer: that’s cool that you got
Enza Vita: value. That’s the value of that dream guidance, I guess that we can tune into?
Rick Archer: Yeah. And that brings up a whole interesting point is who is who are these guys that guide us in our dreams? I mean, are there somehow beings hanging around? And they actually,
Enza Vita: ultimately, it’s only awareness, all ultimately is that one being that that is doing everything and taking the shape of everything? Ston or anything, you know, but obviously, on a relative level, there are beings, like there are spiritual teachers here on Earth, and on on other planes, I guess, talking in relative terms, but ultimately, it’s just awareness that takes on all those shapes.
Rick Archer: Yeah. Well, ultimately, the shapes are only awareness. And ultimately, if you want to say ultimate, ultimate, you know, whole universe is just
Enza Vita: That’s it. There’s only one thing one player,
Rick Archer: yeah. But, you know, again, you know, and or, paradoxically, it’s both, right, yeah. And so they’re, you know, you and I are the same person, we’re different people. Both are true.
Enza Vita: Yes, yes. But two separate bodies,
Rick Archer: right. And these beings in these teachers and so on, they exist in great numbers, not only in, in physical human bodies, but on other dimensions.
Enza Vita: On other dimensions. Yes, absolutely. anatta dimension, and they will appear into your life when that time has come. That’s what has been my experience. And I didn’t have to look for them. They just manifested either in the dream state in an appliance or in the physical.
Rick Archer: Yeah, that’s probably another good safety point, which is don’t go looking for these beings. You know, you don’t want to go off into who knows what looking for? Who knows what you’d find. But if if they’re needed, they’ll show up. Or they’ll do that thing. Yes, yeah. Yeah. So anyway, so you, you had this realization, and it took a while to integrate and stabilize. And the memory thing, we’ve talked about that a little bit, you know, one thing we didn’t mention in the memory thing is, have you noticed that the memory in a way has become much more efficient. It’s not like your mind is cluttered with all kinds of stuff that you really don’t need to think about. Or remember, yes, but when you do need to remember some particular thing? That’s
Enza Vita: true. Yeah, that’s true. A lot of the stuff that I used to remember before, it’s not necessarily that doesn’t come up, but if I need to remember something, there’s really important up there. Yeah, that’s what I found. So I guess there is that trust in that.
Rick Archer: So you probably don’t go through your day with three or four songs in your head and thinking about what happened yesterday, and what’s gonna happen tomorrow, and bla bla bla bla bla bla, while you’re meanwhile trying to do something that has no relationship to all that noise. The noise isn’t there.
Enza Vita: That default position is awareness, arrest, but the awareness in movement mind is still there. I haven’t become sort of spaced out individual they can’t do anything. So let’s use that
Rick Archer: this realization, this awakening that is 5-6-7 years ago, eight years ago?
Enza Vita: Yes, probably about seven or eight years.
Rick Archer: And so what is your normal experience? Now, as you go through your day? Describe it.
Enza Vita: Well, I haven’t become a perfect human being. Nobody does. in a relative sense, we all have imperfections, blemishes, I guess that’s the paradox. That one hand, we are that one being, which is pure and perfect. And on the other end, we have a body mind, which has got karmic patterns and karmic conditions. And so even the most enlightened teachers in the world, they’re still human being. And so my nothing is really change. I mean, you would have to ask Leo, because he probably knows better than me. But it just feels that all that has happened is that I’ve lost some ideas about what was and, and before, always tried to be perfect. And strive for perfection. And now it’s okay, there is nothing wrong. You know, I guess that’s the thing, we always think that there is something wrong. But what about if there is nothing wrong? There’s never been a mistake since the beginning of the universe, right? What about if there is nothing wrong with the way we are? And what about if the divine just use a sail? It is young choruses. That word is this young
Rick Archer: idiosyncrasies. Yes, that’s
Enza Vita: a that’s the one. And what about if, you know, my experience has been uses everything uses everything to experience itself? Through that? Through that vehicle the way it is? So gentle? I’ve answered your question more
Rick Archer: harshly. Yeah. So let’s say you’re going through your day you’re cooking, you’re driving, you’re talking to Leo, you’re doing different things. Do you find that there’s a sort of a continual multi dimensionality to your experience, where on the one hand, you’re active doing these things, but on the other hand, there’s a sort of a silence, that just content a continuum of silence, such that it almost sort of feels like in a sense, you’re not doing anything. And also, perhaps even more so that in the sense that nothing is happening in the external world, because that silence permeates the external world as well. So on the one hand, you are driving and cooking and talking Leo, but on the other hand, nothing is happening. It’s calculus paradoxical, simultaneous. I don’t mean to put words in your mouth, but does that describe your experience?
Enza Vita: Okay, it went home bubble cell, for example, maybe this is where you’ve been when I’m by myself, and I don’t need to exteriorize myself, you know, I need to arise myself to talk to you now. Exterior, right? Yes, yes. exteriorized. Yeah. And then there is just this profound stillness, profound silence, then it feels like when I need to stay arise, there is the appearance of someone that is talking to you now. And so this movement between that and the appearance of the person still happens. But now, it’s not believed anymore, that it’s actually a separate person living in this body. So that’s the difference.
Rick Archer: And this way. Let’s say it’s always there. Yes.
Enza Vita: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, the silence is always is the base that contains everything. And then, you know, they did the example of the ocean and the waves, you know, the ocean is still there, containing all way or waves and all the time and saw but there’s still the appearance saw the appearance of the of the person still happens, but now, he always did. But now I don’t feel that somehow I have to maintain some position in order to be a spiritual success. You know, I can just let it happen in our lives. It’s okay. There’s nothing wrong with the appearance of the person. It’s useful.
Rick Archer: So would it be fair to say that now there’s the appearance of the person, and there’s also this abiding silence and the to get along very well? Where now 30 years ago, there was the person But there wasn’t the abiding silence. It was just the person. And that’s that was the only reality?
Enza Vita: Yes, yes, absolutely. Yeah. And by the boss design, it’s like, the sun and its rise. And you know, it’s the same thing. It’s still all sun, it is realized that everything is ultimately that dark radiance of the absolute everything. And when you see that, you know, life becomes amazing, I guess, life, our life, our life as it is, you know, sometime mess is out of control. It’s always miraculous.
Rick Archer: So would it be fair to define Enlightenment or realization as the the, you know, realization of the awareness of presence of being of the dark absolute, as you put it of pure awareness, regardless of whatever else is or is not going on? But that’s, that’s the sort of the key component is that that, that sort of vastness, pure awareness, whatever you want to call it, that’s there. And if that’s there, come hell or high water, no matter what’s going on, then you could define that as a realization or Enlightenment. Yeah,
Enza Vita: that is, so as the sun the sun is the primary source of all light weather. Yes, that’s right. And the rise, the rise of the sun, and also the sun, on a puddle of water, it’s all sun, it’s a one being and yet appears as different things.
Rick Archer: I heard you quote, Ramana Maharshi as saying, that, which does not persist during deep sleep is not real. Is that the right quote? And please elaborate on that,
Enza Vita: something sounds? Well, Ramana Maharshi said whatever doesn’t exist in deep dreamless sleep. It’s not real. And actually, when I first read that teaching, I was like, Whoa, there’s nothing in dreamless sleep,
Rick Archer: nothing could be real.
Enza Vita: So everything is an illusion, right? And I guess that the reason was asleep, which we all go into every night, all of us, there is something in there. What, what that something is, is that pure awareness, and aware of itself. So So basically, it’s like, if we go back to the example of the sun, the sun needs an object in life, dishonest in space, and there is no object, there is no light, the light happens when hits an object. And that’s when conscious and consciousness appens you know, which is consciousness is a bit different than awareness, even though it’s all one thing.
Rick Archer: In your terminology, yeah, the way yeah,
Enza Vita: yes. Yes. Yeah. What was the signing? Um, what was your question is
Rick Archer: the thing about Ramana Maharshi saying that, so, is your experience of deep dreamless sleep different now than it was before your Realization?
Enza Vita: Different
Rick Archer: Yes. Elaborate on the
Enza Vita: was nothing there was nothing in dreamless sleep before. But I had same thing, it is not a nothing is, is a something is the potentiality of the absolute is where awareness comes from.
Rick Archer: So are you saying that
Enza Vita: you are awareness on aware of itself? Because there is no object? She can reflect? Yes, yeah. So it’s not something that the mind can understand or
Rick Archer: even see, because the mind isn’t active in deep dreamless sleep. Right now. The mind is asleep. assassins are asleep. But what I’m getting at here is that number of people I’ve spoken with say that after Realization, sleep has become different because pure awareness is never lost. And even though there’s nothing to be aware of pure awareness itself, about abides during the sleep state, is that your experience
Enza Vita: is the the substratum of everything. Yeah. So it’s ongoing is not like so this is where I’m saying there is a difference between awareness and consciousness. Consciousness comes and goes consciousness, unconsciousness, sleep, you know, you wake up death. The you know, after you die, you’re not conscious. But awareness is the star. stratagem that always is. So if you’re tuned into this abstraction, then there is no change. On the surface there is change. On the bottom, there is no change. So there is no change between what we call our wake life, or our dream life, or deep dreamless sleep, it’s just how many ways that they’re happening. That’s the only difference.
Rick Archer: Yeah. Sometimes this absolute state substratum, as you put it, as the Sanskrit word is called turiya, which means fourth, and, yeah, turiya. And so yeah, when, right, and the reason they call it forth is that waking, dreaming and sleeping are said to be 123, the three states of consciousness, and then this fourth is said to be a fourth, not only just sort of like one more state of consciousness, but one which actually has the capability of underlying the other three of being there perpetually, as the other three cycle through their their narrow routine.
Enza Vita: Yes, yes. Absolutely.
Rick Archer: And in a way, that gets us back to another question, which is that an earlier question, which is that, if there’s a fourth, could there be a fifth and sixth and so on. And, you know, some say that the fifth would be what I just alluded to that, you know, the pure awareness is there all the time as the as waking, dreaming, sleeping, come and go, initially, pure awareness can be there by itself? No, you know, Transcendence, that could be the fourth, but then having it all the time, regardless of whether you’re awake or asleep or dreaming, that could be the fifth. And then we talked earlier, and that woman from Adelaide asked the question of well, would you distinguish between self realization and God realization, some people say that God realization is a further development in which pure awareness is there as it always has been since it got stabilized, but that the senses have become refined and become very subtle in their appreciation so that the sort of the divine in the world begins to be apprehended directly. Now, that’s not a question, but it’s something I hope you’ll elaborate on.
Enza Vita: Well, the difference between self realization, God realization, I think, it’s, it’s my leap, that when we experienced the Self Realization, there is still a little subtle. Not duality. But it’s still something resting in something. And so it’s almost like, I know myself to be this, right. And with God realization, you don’t, you don’t experience anything else, but that you don’t experience anything, but God, and whether this keep going forever, whether there are subtler and subtler level, you know, every time you reach a level, you always think is the end. But I know now that there’s always a plus step. So are far are deep, you can go Who knows? I don’t know. I don’t know.
Rick Archer: Personally, I think there’s probably, well,
Enza Vita: infinite level. Like, yeah, the, the many, many, many infinite phases of God, you know, that’s, that’s how I like to see it, you know, and so you go deeper, and you see something else and you go deeper and something else. And if God is infinite, then that would be infinite as well.
Rick Archer: Because there’s no end to the I mean, if we think of you use the sun analogy, a number of times in the sun, the sun is just shining, and but it shines off different reflectors in different ways. And, you know, shines off a muddy puddle one way in a clear puddle another way in a mirror and other way and so on. So if we, if we think of, you know, our being our body and makeup as a reflector, who’s to say that couldn’t that even this one reflector couldn’t be refined to a much greater extent, and then even if there are limits to how much this reflector could be refined, there could be other reflectors you know, other types of bodies, which could which from the outset, are far more refined than a human body could even become?
Enza Vita: Yes. And ultimately, it is all decide by that divine principle that creates it all creates role, so that he can discover itself more through a different configuration. Right. And so it’s like, you know, each one of us is really providing a mirror I guess, for the absolute deceit itself to us. Yeah. And
Rick Archer: friend of mine, I like to refer to us as sense organs of the infinite. You know, we’re Yes, since Yeah.
Enza Vita: Nisargadatta said, this body is the body the absolute, because he was at that stage where, you know, all there was left was at the absolute.
Rick Archer: So it’s what about to in the morning now in Adelaide,
Enza Vita: I do look for a wall and you see, yeah, 1:56
Rick Archer: getting tired.
Enza Vita: I’m up to stay up all night.
Rick Archer: But let’s just cover a couple more points, and then I’ll let you go and stay awake all night. One thing you met, you said earlier, we just passed by, which I find interesting is that you felt that perhaps this epidemic of awakening seems to be taking place in the world is kind of like nature’s response to the severity of the problems we face and is, and hopefully holds the potential for enabling us to surmount these problems and shift into a better world. I mean, you didn’t say all that I’m elaborating on, I think, the seed idea that you brought out, but do you have any thoughts on that?
Enza Vita: I’m not sure, ultimately, this is just an idea. But I have seen through our work, talking to different teachers, and this is happening worldwide, a lot of people something that was quite rare. People are popping up everywhere, waking up. And so there is definitely a divine plan behind this. And so ultimately, I’m not sure exactly why. But this is what’s what’s going on. And I think we’re moving into an era where maybe the set somebody is the guru is dead. The era of the Guru is dead. But but this I mean, not that spiritual teachers would disappear, but maybe more the the guru that is some super human being with super special qualities and perfection. That is moving away. And what is coming is the era of waking up together, you know, so there might be still somebody a teacher there, but more like a friend, not like a super human perfet being.
Rick Archer: Yeah, my guess is that there will always be extraordinary souls, you know, and but, but even the extraordinary souls all set have told us throughout history that hey, you can be like me. I mean, Jesus said, what are all these great things that I do YouTube shall be able to do these things and even greater things? He said, Yes. Yes. So I think that’s the thing. I mean, and even in that tradition, you know, despite the fact that he’d said that, many would consider it blasphemous to suggest that one could become as enlightened to being as Jesus, or something.
Enza Vita: Yeah, and that’s puts a little bit of a ceiling on that. If we’re all the one being, why not?
Rick Archer: Why not. And then I
Enza Vita: can see your point, some people probably be very upset, but yes, some other human being could achieve that status that that level of unfoldment I guess, right?
Rick Archer: Because there is this sort of attitude of, you know, we, we’re all flawed, and, you know, we can never totally overcome our inherent flaws. And Jesus, you know, this, this Divine Being was perfect, and we can ever be like that. But I think the point you’re bringing out is that, you know, if you’re a human being then sure there’s always going to be some kinks some glitches, but but they’re great heights to which a human being can rise.
Enza Vita: And those kinks are the ones and you know, why are there because the one being once experience itself through those kicks?
Rick Archer: Yeah. Little salt makes vegetable sweet. Okay, you know, I’ve heard you say that when you first had your Realization and started telling some friends, they got mad at you and then thought Who are you to say this? You know, how could you do? Yeah, you look like the same as you always look. You’re not floating two feet off the ground. Yeah,
Enza Vita: well, your family and friends are the worst. Yeah. You know witches arrived, keeps you humble. It keeps you humble.
Rick Archer: A prophet is not without honor, except in his own home. But um, but actually, that was one of my motivations for starting the show I, you know, have a lot of friends in town who have been, you know, meditating for years. And a lot of them were having awakenings and you know, really genuine, profound ones. And they would tell friends and friends would say, Oh, are you kidding? You’re just being egotistical, it couldn’t happen to you, and you seem like the same old jerk that you always were never. And so they they got alright, I’m not going to talk about it anymore. So that’s the way people are going to react. So I thought, all right, I’m gonna start a interview show. And I’m just gonna start interviewing these people and show people that it’s these awakenings are happening to people just like them. And maybe that will embolden them to believe that it could happen to them, too. And you know, how? Because if you’re totally close to the possibility, then maybe you’re going to keep it shut down, you know?
Enza Vita: Yes, yes. And I must say, I love the way you do the show, you know, you, you, you bring so much openness. And I know that probably you don’t agree with everything that your guests to talk about. But it’s like, you know, you got to really open heart and, and you give the person a lot of hope and openness. You know, and this is great, because, you know, only awareness can do that.
Rick Archer: Well, thanks. And it’s not that I don’t agree with everything that guest says, although we might say that in certain ways, but it’s more like, alright, this person and I have slightly different perspectives on this. And maybe we both are, you know, like just blind men feeling different parts of the elephant, and we don’t have the, the picture of the entire elephant. And so let’s let’s kind of rub these perspectives together and see if we can both kind of expand each other’s perspective.
Enza Vita: Yeah. And we can learn from each other. Because as I said, all these are the different expressions of God. And if you want to know more about the divine, then by sharing with each other, we can learn those phases we might not know yet.
Rick Archer: Yeah, excellent. So you say you haven’t been teaching much yet. And, but you’re probably going to experience what I call the BatGap Bump. Where, you know, people will watch this, and within a week 5000, people will have watched it, and people will start getting in touch with you. And, and so what do you have to offer people who would like to get in touch with you?
Enza Vita: I’m open, I don’t make any plans. Really, I haven’t made any plans. This is my second interview. The first one was with Jerry, and sort of a, for me, it’s like I just flow with life presents. If there were people interested in these teachings, I’m willing to do whatever I need to do to get to them. And
Rick Archer: so so physically, you could travel to a place if the will if that were
Enza Vita: not enough, teachers, yes, somebody can arrange it, I’m willing to. Or you could
Rick Archer: do Skype consultations, you would do that? Yes, I could do that. And do you have any idea what you would charge for those.
Enza Vita: I’ve actually set up a nonprofit organization that because what I want to do is try to work out some sliding scale, because I don’t want to somehow prevent people screw people saw, I haven’t really narrowed down how it’s going to work. But I was thinking of a like a sliding scale where with a very minimal cost or maybe even free for some people and going out for people that can afford it and stuff like that. So that everybody, we’re actually starting this. This this with this foundation, we starting meditation for kids and for people that have handicapped and, and, and also offering maybe troubled teenagers, this is all in the in what’s going on. And, and also to people that can’t really afford to go to very expensive retreats, or older people. Yeah.
Rick Archer: It’s mainly something you’ll be doing in Australia, or will you be somehow putting it on CDs or something?
Enza Vita: I don’t know. I haven’t thought of it. Okay. Good idea. That’s a good idea. Yeah.
Rick Archer: You should make a meditation or something like that. Yeah,
Enza Vita: yeah. Yes. Yeah, we could do that. Yeah, that’s a good idea.
Rick Archer: Okay. Well, I’m sure there’ll be all sorts of ideas. Good. Alrighty. So I think you know, we’d like to interview a mix of people and some, it’s, it’s fun to interview really established teachers like Adyashanti and people like that and who have a great day. You’ll have experience and wisdom. And it’s also really fun to find people who haven’t done much teaching. And even people who aren’t who have no intention of teaching, they just, you know, ordinary person working in a job or something, and they’ve had this spiritual awakening. So it’s, you’re somewhere in between, because you, you definitely have you stuck your toe in the waters of teaching people. But sounds like it’s very much in the early stages, and who knows what it might evolve into?
Enza Vita: Yes, I don’t know. And when I first started thinking about teaching, my first reaction was like, I’m not sure you know, and mainly because I see myself as to having, I guess, progress now relative, in a relative sense, you know, I make mistakes and all this stuff, you know, but then, somebody sent me a little, quote, The said, the life of a Zen master is one continuous mistake. Now, I’m not saying I am a Zen master, but I guess that’ll be required. So it gives me the courage to keep walking and and trying to do what is being asked of me. Yeah. So
Rick Archer: there was a humor group back in the 60s, called FIRESIGN theatre, and one of their phrases was, we’re all bozos on this bus.
Enza Vita: We all a mess. And also, we are that unconditional love that holds everything.
Rick Archer: Yeah. And I can’t think of a spiritual teacher who doesn’t make mistakes. And if they if they were to insist that they’re beyond the possibility of making mistakes, I’d be a little bit suspicious.
Enza Vita: Yes, yeah. I’d be careful not perfection. We we like to, for our teachers to be perfect. And we like ourselves to be perfect. But in reality, we all have. Yeah, we work in progress. Like I said, yeah, yeah.
Rick Archer: And I’d like to, you know, we’re all friends kind of helping each other. These days. That’s the culture that seems to be developing. We’re kind of holding hands marching forward together.
Enza Vita: Yes. It’s wonderful. Yeah, it’s great.
Rick Archer: Okay, so I’ll be making a page on batgap.com. About you, as I always do, and people will read a little bit about you and be able to link to your there’ll be a link to your website, and anything else that you have. Your book will have a link to the Amazon page of your book. And just to make more general, concluding remarks, this interview has been one an ongoing series, go to batgap.com. And you’ll see there’s a past interviews menu. And there are about five different ways that the past interviews are categorized. Check that out, there’s a place to sign up to be notified by email about once a week each time a new interview is posted. You can always unsubscribe. There’s an audio podcast, which we’re still having problems with. But I’ll send out an email when that gets fixed. And there’s the donate button, which you know, obviously, this takes a lot of time, and it’s still not my full time. Occupation. I have a day job a couple of hours a day, so any financial support people feel inclined to offer is appreciated. So thanks for listening or watching. And thank you again, and it’s really been a delight. I really enjoyed this conversation. And we’ll meet again,
Enza Vita: was wonderful. Yeah, thank you for making it so joyful. Yeah.
Rick Archer: Thanks. I hope he can sleep tonight. Yeah. Now you need to counteract the coffee. I don’t know. Have a beer have a beer. Okay, what is it? Cardamom Irene says carbon carbon counteracts caffeine. So make yourself some hot milk and stir some carbon into it. And maybe that’ll help you sleep.
Enza Vita: I have some karma and I like to cook with different spices. Yeah.
Rick Archer: Good. All righty. Thanks. Talk to you later. Thank you. Bye bye.
