142. Eliza Mada Dalian

It is said that out of a thousand beings who become enlightened, only one becomes a master who is able to individually guide others out of the complexities of their personal illusions. Eliza Mada Dalian is one such rare being. Affectionately known as Mada, she brings an evolutionary approach to health, personal transformation, and enlightenment. Mada is a modern day mystic, spiritual guide, internationally acclaimed master healer, seven time award-winning best-selling author of “In Search of the Miraculous: Healing into Consciousness,” creator of “No-Yes Active Meditation” CDs, and “Transcending the Fear of Death and the Unknown” guided meditation. She is also the founder of the evolutionary “Dalian Method for Health and Consciousness” – a groundbreaking self-healing method that helps you identify and permanently erase the causes of energetic blocks, fear and pain from the body’s cellular memory, transforming ailments into health and self-empowered consciousness.

Mada’s own quest for truth began at age five when she witnessed her grandfather’s death. At age twenty-four she came across the teachings of the renowned 20th century spiritual teachers George Gurdjieff and Osho. Their words deeply affected her and she left behind her training in education and architecture to devote herself to the search for truth and spiritual enlightenment. After years of meditation and introspection she was blessed with many profound experiences that led to the “ultimate” experience of enlightenment at age thirty-three.

Mada is a no-nonsense practical teacher who doesn’t encourage dependency, rather, self-responsibility. Her teaching style clearly embodies the Chinese proverb “Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.” Mada unconditionally and compassionately guides individuals through their life challenges and helps to fast-forward their journey to greater health and spiritual awakening. Mada travels internationally offering private sessions, workshops, self-healing seminars and retreats to individuals, children, and organizations. She also conducts Online Courses and DM Teacher Training. For more information visit:

Mada’s website: MadaDalian.com
FACEBOOK: www.facebook.com/MadaDalian
TWITTER: www.twitter.com/MadaDalian
YOUTUBE: www.youtube.com/MadaDalian




Interview recorded 10/13/2012

Video and audio below. Audio also available as a Podcast.

82 thoughts on “142. Eliza Mada Dalian

  1. The relative, the individual, always involves stories. The Absolute, the Divine is just immoveable, aware bliss. Being critical, or judgmental, is inherent in the individual, especially prior to Enlightenment. But that’s okay, it’s just a characteristic of being identified with the thoughts and the story, whatever it is. We’re limited at the moment, but later will expand. That’s the greater story: coming home.

    Mike is right, because what he says is reasonable. Snowleopard is right, because he or she sees Mike’s charged feelings, and probably has some of his or her own. And my charged feelings get stimulated, too. It’s all part of a fun game that we’ve learned to take just a little too seriously. It’s part of what must happen as we approach coming home to reality. It’s just not yet the most important or valuable part of what must happen, from an Absolute perspective.

  2. Mike:
    Thank you for chiming in with telling it like it is.
    There seems to be a tendency amongst New Agers/Spiritual Seekers to passively applaud everything Spiritual, even to the point where it patently looks and sounds like over-hyped BS.
    As an avid BatGap viewer, I’d rather read the mixture of reactions (good, bad or ugly) than the milk-toast acceptance of EVERY interviewee, especially in cases noted above.
    Oh, I forgot- there’s no one here to comment on this…

  3. Nice interview..

    One statement got my attention clearly as a rookie of meditation.

    “One can experience and witness same time…”

    May be anyone with more meditation experience could put more light on it…


  4. I found this one to be interesting – maybe cause the last one was so lacking in depth and substance… Eliza made a few very important points – ..

    The master thing doesn’t fly -but her discussion of witnessing sleep/ rejuvenating sleep rang true…as did her thoughts on sex…how vital it is for the sexual/spiritual energy to be ignited in order to reach the higher centers – and how after awakening that energy becomes neutralized…

    I also liked that she didn’t dwell on the ‘I’ disappearance at age 33 but just said it in passing..didn’t makae a big deal of it..I’ve known many who knew Osho and he was a fascinating and powerful dude – gave the opening to many who were ripe but what they did with it was not always the best..so I don’t doubt that something happened..

    But w hat Mike noticed with this one was that not everyone stays true to their awakenings – the ego/mind comes back and claims to be a master leading people to salvation – developing THE technique – and necessarily charging big bucks for that..happens quite a bit it seems…One hopes that she really is helping people with her work, because if not – we are back to telling ourselves another lie…

    This leela sure is entertaining..

  5. stunpad1, I’ll try to reply to your question. Witnessing the body breathing is the same as witnessing any other changing activity: it is a very intimate, restful awareness. The only difference from “ordinary” (pre-Enlightenment) awareness is that witnessing is not vague, instead, it is crystal clear and distinctly unbounded in nature. Witnessing can start spontaneously, in response to self-inquiry, or as a result of meditation, particularly forms of meditation in which thinking is transcended, such as Transcendental Meditation (TM) or Natural Stress Relief (NSR). Witnessing can come and go at first, but eventually it is present at all times, 24 hours a day. It is natural, blissful, free of problems. It is eternally Now. Resting in It is completely freeing, as our life now goes on by itself, without anyone doing anything.

    Hope this helps. Complete understanding only comes when the actual experience dawns. Want to do something to hasten it? Do less, instead of more. Effortless is the key to progress. If you need to release your stresses, practice transcending. Otherwise, just be aware. Oh, and there is nothing wrong with seeking and searching! Just don’t take it too seriously.

  6. Yes I agree Snow – opposition to anything causes suffering..and when one lives this there is instantaneous acceptance of what is, moment to moment..without thinking about it….

    But again not to confuse that with never making a distinction between truth and non truth if it is necessary…and for seekers it is absolutely necessary…

    As Mila pointed out – Ramana and Hitler are both aspects of the one consciousness but we distinguish between them..not to do so would be a form of psychosis..A man jumped off the high line L train into the tigers den at the Bronx Zoo not too long ago…The headline read – “I just wanted to be One with the tiger.” and he wasn’t kidding..

    We don’t lose the ability to make distinctions or fear making them…thinking it’s not spiritually correct to do so..We still put the child molester in jail..we just do it without judgment or anger..

    The Self has no wish or need to be loved – as it is Love Itself – so its fine with just saying what IT means and meaning what it says… It’s sole reason for being is the protecting, perpetuating and expanding of consciousness..and when it speaks, it lets the chips fall where they may..

    There are many healers around these days and just as with spiritual teachers we want to be discriminating, unless money is no object…Again if we are astute we know what feels real…

    It’s interesting but to this day, I have never heard Pamela or Adya or Braco or John of God say that they were enlightening or curing any one of anything…There’s a humility that comes with a true awakening…or gifts of healing…It’s not the money, but the idea of I’m doing it, that doesn’t feel right..

    I searched for and went to healers for years – when I had the Kundalini raging – until I realized that that energy wasn’t separate from me and then the body healed itself..There are still fluctuations to this day – but mostly due to the earth changes going on – not taken personally…

    Most of our pain is born of psychological conditioning..Eliza is right about that, and all good healers know it….all our fears and unfulfilled desires come to call when the energy starts to move through the body…

    .Fear of death as she said is the big one…once that goes – a lot of the physical stuff bites the dust..As Gangaji says – It takes a lot of effort to hold on and maintain an illusion which is why it feels so good when we let go..

    If we take the spiritual path to it’s deepest level – as Braco is now doing – allowing Grace to truly penetrate – much pain can be eliminated…as he is dealing with very deep layers of illusion….

    Christ demonstrated that casting out illusion on the most profound level of the body is the mark of a true master…The satsang teachers are not there yet..none of us are….so everyone needs to check their ego at the door..

  7. Jill, Beautiful message, thank you! I really enjoyed it.

    About your conclusion: I’m not sure I can detect ego, as you can. For example, I don’t see any ego in Adyashanti or Karen Richards, just self-confidence. Maybe it’s due to my own limitations. I’m not at all opposed to thoughtful criticism, but I do far too much of it myself, so I hope I drop this bad habit soon.

  8. I’d give you a pass any day Mike – your honesty makes my heart sing…and everyone loves you here at batgapia….and not everyone has given me a pass here as I remember…but I’ve been sitting in this a long long time..and the Self tends to have an authority all its own..Certainly Jill never did..she was a wimp..not half as brave to speak her mind as you at your age…I’m in awe..

  9. Nice to meet you Nsrusa…and welcome…one of the brave few who posted a photo..

    Quite right – The Self confidence you detect in ones like Adya and Karen is born of the awakened experience precisely because the ego has fallen away and the Self is heard speaking through them.. -The Self speaks with a certain authority..

    Nothing wrong with thoughtful critiques..As I said before – an intelligent seeker makes distinctions when necessary for his and everyone’s sake…as long as it’s not done with malice…humor helps too…I don’t think in terms of bad or good – just true or not true..

    But Snow’s point earlier is valid..most essential is to continually look at own stuff on the spiritual path and be willing to clean the lens – until the Self Evident Truth shines forth unencumbered – to make sure we are not merely speaking from a conditioned response and projection…

    and to all a good night..

  10. Everybody should be given a pass because we are all human.

    But there’s no reason any criticism or argument should automatically be given a pass because of the author. Granted if you respect the author, then you are welcome to give them the benefit of the doubt.

    But any argument should be able to stand on it’s own, and the author should provide evidence and research to support their point.

    Critical thinking, discernment, and communication skills are important to learn, develop and fine tune. But only if we are serious about actually connecting with others and have a genuine desire to realize and know what’s true.

    But if it’s more important to be happy and feel good, ignorance and laziness can work just as good, as that path is much faster and easier. Most people are totally satisfied with a happier dream and can get quite defensive and verbally aggressive, if they perceive any threat to that happy dream.

    …. on a second and related note…

    If we are willing to openly mock, judge and criticize the level of awakening & behavior of the interviewees here at batgap, then we should be also totally open and willing to have our own awakening and qualifications of expertise criticized and examined by others. That would seem to be more fair, it is easy and safe to ‘judge from the pulpit’, but if you can dish it out, then you should be willing to take it too.

    And passive aggressive judgements are even worse, shaming and ‘shoulding’ others, while hiding in spiritual elitism, like “I’m a peacemaker”, “How dare you have negative emotions?”, “Anything you see wrong in me, is really within you.”, “Poor you, Let me give you spiritual advice, I know better.”, “So and so teacher says I’m right and you’re wrong.”, etc.

    …… not saying i’m perfect or above it all, just making some observations… talking to myself but also just talking out loud. I find it useful and insightful to make statements and take positions, and then let inquiry and curiosity do it’s work and investigate into what’s deeper and true.

  11. Thank you nsrusa.. as u said I got to wait for that to happen in course of time. Because when I try to observe breathing .. breathing becomes artificial (heavy and intentionally inhale longer than normal and exhale aswell).. and it’s no more natural.

    Thats funny at same time tough to understand the process. 🙂 .. Thank you.

  12. It’s generally accepted by common law that we have the right to defend ourselves from physical danger and attack.

    What is often over-looked is that there’s a very human need to defend our ideology (worldview, ideas, goals, expectations, personal story).

    In general society, it’s often recommend to avoid topics of sex, politics and religion to keep conversations civil. Because people can have vastly different and strong positions, which can lead to arguments and bad feelings.

    But within the realm of spirituality, awakening, enlightenment, non-dual realizations, etc.; these subjects can have some of the highest and strongest ideological positions that we can hold onto very dearly.

    So it’s a very delicate and sensitive matter to communicate about these topics but also recognize and honor other people’s right to defend their ideology. (Even if we think or ‘think we know’ that their position is false.)

    One of the greatest and often overlooked psychological cruelties is to not acknowledge someone (ie. go sit in a corner punishment for a kid), but it can also be just as painful to not acknowledge someone’s ideology.

    Often times people just want to be heard.

    But even deeper, all that our past inner stories simply want; is to be fully heard, accepted and felt.

    and a quote from Article 11 of Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen from National Assembly of France 1789:
    “The free communication of ideas and opinions is one of the most precious of the rights of man. Every citizen may, accordingly, speak, write, and print with freedom, but shall be responsible for such abuses of this freedom as shall be defined by law.”

  13. A poignant observation, Valentino.

    And one that I will celebrate with a cup of strong, black tea before I hit the sack.

  14. dom,
    thanks for the welcome greet.. good to have you back also, you bring a lot to the table with your unique perspective & communication style.

    Some sort of a group video chat would be an interesting extension for the batgap community, though it might be quite a challenge to coordinate it. It would definitely change the tone of conversation, having a face and voice can make communication even more personal.

    Another idea would be to have some sort of online forum platform, that’s sorted based on topic. I think there’s a yahoo group, but that’s also linear, hard to navigate, and there’s less participants there.

    The current linear comment thread style can be a bit confusing, as it can be hard to follow multiple topics at the same time. But it’s also easy to miss or overlook posts, and there’s no easy way to search or follow topics or people….

    Though…. that’s also very analogous to what most people’s internal thought streams are like. One thought after another, and not necessarily related…. so that’s a unusual similarity..

  15. This interview with Mada is wonderful. I enjoy all of the different voices and language used by all these various Awakened souls.

    I thought of the following possible interview with a very different type of Awakened person, whom I’ve named Remy Martin. Not at all like Mada, it just happens I’m posting it here.

    RICK: Some people think that a litmus test for Awakening is witnessing all night long. Do you do that?
    REMY: Uh, sure. Lots of witnessing.
    RICK: Witnessing, of course, being unbounded awareness, intact and Absolute in nature.
    REMY: Sure, that’s the ticket. And don’t forget that I’m an Absolute Master, which is better than an ordinary teacher. My teachings really work.
    RICK: So you just mean that the individual has dropped off, or somehow become less important, right?
    REMY: Right, that’s what I mean. I’m aware of my past lives, so I’m great.
    RICK: But you do agree with the Buddhists, who say that past lives can be a distraction?
    REMY: Oh, do they? Yes, of course. I was kidding about the past lives thing. But I do see auras.

  16. The belief in past lives (prior to our births, that is) is a logical extension of the belief that who I am today is an extension of… and significantly influenced by… who I was yesterday.

    Belief systems are concentric in nature. Core beliefs give rise to related concentric beliefs.

    And the core belief of “I am an extension, today, of who I was yesterday” is the nucleus of any belief in past lives.

  17. Snow,
    Past life scenarios often do arise during the energetic process but one is advised not to pay much attention to it..sort of let them pass through..and then like all manifestations of mind, they are of shorter duration..
    Once the mind is completely dissolved, a jnani knows that what was never born can never die..always here..
    .As Peter said – no continuation except in belief…If we believe we are a person here – then we believe a person continues but really we never have been nor are now nor ever will be…
    As Papaji said – ‘nothing every happened’ – so I’d just pay all of it no mind…just stress in the nervous system.. a sidebar…..
    I remember Ramana’s words which always made me laugh – When asked – what about reincarnation, he said – ‘don’t you have enough trouble with this life’?
    Love to you..

  18. I’m particularly attracted to the policy of many vipassana meditation retreat locations.

    No fees are charged.

    You are simply asked to make a donation, according to your ability to pay.

    I often found myself donating more than what a comparable fee would’ve been.

    Just because they asked for a donation instead of a fee.

  19. I read some of the comments re Mada’s pricing and her claim to be a master.

    Human nature is keen to judge and sadly judges those that have the compassion to share their wisdom and gifts with us, only so that we can come out of our suffering.

    I am one of the many that is very very happy to have paid Mada’s prices, an insignificant issue, considering the life changing transformation that her work has offered me.

    Proof of her work is in experiencing, and not in debating at an intellectual level. All that does is close you from the possibility of a life altering opportunity.

  20. kindi, Thank you for your testimonial. In this age when it is difficult to verify claims through expensive scientific research, I consider testimonials important sources of information. After reading a few more such positive testimonials, I will be willing to drop most of my skepticism about Mada, which are based on her sweeping and astonishing claims. I do have an open mind.

  21. Just like with spiritual teachers, energetic resonance is also important with healers…because Mary was healed by so and so..doesn’t mean John will be…so if one is drawn to someone – really feels an affinity to a certain healer – that’s the one for them and not because someone recommended them…one stays open and goes by the inner guidance…

    That being said – there are world healers whose energy is here for the masses such as a Braco and is not dependent on one-on-one resonance..

    Mary Baker Eddy the founder of Christian Science who healed thousands in her day – said that the question to ask after being with a healer is: ‘Is Divine Love nearer and dearer to me, not whether all the symptoms have gone away…If it’s true that Divine Love is felt to be nearer and dearer, then we can conclude that matter is indeed surrendering to spirit and that a healing is taking place..Only doubt can interfere with that process’..

    If a healing is to be deep and lasting it involves surrender to that Love…same as with the awakening process….A healer, like a spiritual teacher, cannot give us anything we are not willing to receive…

    Here’s a quote from John of God…
    “..when it comes to healing deep-seated problems, one of the keys is the ‘willingness’ to change even your most entrenched habits – your less than healthful behaviors – your unhappy job or relationship – your impossible schedule – to let go of anything that is holding you back…Such radical change is always scary…People want someone to carry the load and do it all -but they have to be willing participants in the transformation…If the entities say no pot cause it creates a dense aura which is hard to penetrate or if they say improve the diet, or upgrade the mindset – they mean it..If they say return here 10 times – then we do it…Much is required of the patient…can’t be passive participants..The Entity does maybe 60 percent but the rest is up to you”…

  22. Thanks for your comments everyone.

    And yes it is true that since the journey is our goal, we will all benefit from different experiences and learn through our individual ways. My most profound encounter in this life has been the Dalian Method.

    Mada’s present interest is in getting her self-healing version of her method out, so that “dependance” can be lessened and more “self responsibility for transformation” is taken by us individually. (and of course more people can benefit) . For that she has to minimise her personal sessions and keeps the number of people she sees to an absolute minimum. The rest of her time, is dedicated to working on the soon to be released Self Healing book, CD and DVD.

    All I know is that my own fears of scarcity could have got in my way, but somewhere my intelligence knew that was an ego trick designed to keep me stuck. I have been fortunate to have taken the “risk” and simply “trust” in what felt right for me.

    I have not looked back since that day in October 2008 when I first met Mada. The liberation felt has been immense and the “then” broken woman has been restored to a vibrant, keen, self-loving being today!
    I have experienced an alchemical change that can never be taken away and what is more, it just feels like I have truly begun living the life that I came to enjoy on this earth.
    The Dalian Method is nothing short of a miracle, and yes, anyone truly sincere about changing and wanting lasting improvements in both physical and psychological states, should consider taking the courage to consider this technique.

    I have enjoyed the “banter”! Have fun with your choices. That is what we are here to do.

  23. and i forgot to mention my ailments since I have been asked to clarify.
    Physically: (to mention a few things)
    My underactive thyroid condition has been reversed
    Gruelling migraine pains have stopped
    Chronic pre menstrual problems have stopped, and these had persisted for nearly 30 years
    Chronic joint pains have stopped

    jealousy, rage, lack of self worth, insecurities and risk taking no longer affect me. These conditions have “dissolved”, and instead I effortlessly can be more authentic, open, and in my heart. This is a natural state as i have evolved and increased in consciousness.
    my meditation practice has become deeper and deeper, and more enjoyable. My bodily awareness has strengthened, including having the bodily experience of knowing that I am emptiness.


    I live more in the present, and less identified with my thoughts.
    I am able to surrender to daily challenges more easily and “suffer” much less.
    I have been able to let go of many many non serving patterns, some of which I inherited in this life time, and for those of you debating past lives, some of which I had carried over from earlier incarnations.

    In short I am a happier, lighter human being, willing and excited to grow more and more, and keen to share my gifts and creativity. I like being “me”!

    I hope this helps xx

  24. From Igor (Vamadeva):

    Eliza’s efforts to uplift the suffering are laudable and this is in no way to undermine what she has shared here, yet the following is for the benefit of other seekers and perhaps Eliza herself. During the interview, around 1:11:00, Eliza when sharing her experiences of witnessing dreaming and deep-sleep states of consciousness shows lack of insight to what is happening in the later. In fact deep-sleep state of consciousness – normally characterized as ‘blackout’ – when fully transcended becomes translucent for the light of consciousness no longer veiled by the inert nature of the deep-sleep.

    For those who aren’t familiar with the nature of the three states, the three relative states are manifestations of the three primordial energies present in Creation on all levels – otherwise known in various Indian spiritual traditions as the Gunas of Nature. They are Sattva, Rajas and Tamas. Each Guna represents a particular energetic fluctuation without which there is no embodied existence. Even such laconic in their expositions gurus like Ramana Maharshi operated with these categories on more than one occasion.

    Raja-guna manifests as motion, desire, heat and passion. Tama-guna as inertia, stability, stupor, veiling. While Sattva-guna as light and equilibrium. The role of Rajas is to act as ingredient necessary for any transformative stage to take place. Tamas makes sure any stage is being checked at a respective level. While Sattva’s role is that of maintaing balance between the three. In relation to the Four Forces, Rajas is related to Heat with Strong and Weak Interactions. Tamas is related to Gravity and Sattva is to Electro-Magentism.

    Now, the three relative states are expressions of these energies which goes to veil Pure Awareness as different degrees of vibration with which the Awareness experiences its own field emanating as Universe.

    Waking state is associated with sattva; dreaming with rajas and deep-sleep with tamas. When one is awakened and gradually transcends the limitations of the three relative states, one becomes the witness of, at first one’s actions (waking state), than one’s dreams (dreaming state), until one penetrates the dark matter of the deep-sleep.

    From the experientiential level, the deep-sleep is the last to be transcended as that is the most dense of all the three. Also, it is there where the seeds of all our psychic impressions are stored as the deep-sleep is associated with the Karma-sarira (causal body). When one’s awareness is luminous enough the witnessing of the deep-sleep state is like seeing under a water with your eyes open. Literally, the light of one’s consciousness illumines the otherwise ‘black’ nature of deep-sleep as the Sunlight penetrates the layers of a sea.

    It is true what Eliza said about the state being needed for the nervous system to rejuvenate. However (when established) the witnessing does not impede that process the least.

    Furthermore, equating the deep-sleep with Buddhist Nirvana is an error in understanding the very essence of that term. Nirvana is an extinction of the very cause of Samsara which is stored and covered in the deep-sleep state. For that reason Nirvana is way beyond the one or the other two for that matter. This is in fact a common mistake many followers of buddha’s doctrines do when they mistake the ‘blackness’ of the deep-sleep with that of Shunya. The difference has been addressed by me previously on various occasions: the darkness of the Shunya is more like a luminous black yet bottomlessly translucent like the night sky, while the deep-sleep (prior to being transcended) is like a pitch black cellar. The difference is vast.

    Second point is when Eliza spoke of the gap getting wider and wider, as we meditate, between witnessing and objectivity. That is only true in the initial stages, also known as the side-effects of Cosmic Consciousness, meditation actually helps to close that gap by spontaneous ensuing of Nirvikalpa Samadhi (the state of no distinction). It is true though she was quick to bring J. Krishnamurti’s quote on ”subject becoming one with the object”, but are we to understand that being her experience or that of the famous teacher? Merging of the subject with object is a rare culmination of anyone’s story, I sincerely doubt there are that many out there to know what that actually pertains from the point of view of direct experience.

    Otherwise a splendid interview.

  25. Thanks for taking the trouble to post your views Rick. It is difficult to describe the experience in words because no words are sufficient enough to express the experience of enlightenment or nirvana! And let me be clear that I don’t equate Nirvana to Enlightenment, though both words have been used to describe awakening from the illusion of separation. The Buddha demonstrated the difference between the two by lighting a candle then blowing it out and asking: “Where did the flame go?” I equate to Nirvana to experience of deep sleep. When the individual flame, or individual consciousness disappears into the vastness of the universal nothingness, the individual consciousness disappears and merges with nothingness. One can describe this experience to that of entering a black hole where nothing moves. As you enter the black hole (deep sleep), no trace of your individual consciousness remains. The Buddha also called this place Beyond Enlightenment. In this space of absolute stillness, there is no knower and no known. All just IS.

    Your post shows someone with sharp intellect but if you are a knower, why use scriptures to describe something that is indescribable? I only know what I know through my own experience. All I can say is that if you are a knower you would know another who is also a knower, and if you are not, then you will not be able to recognize what is beyond words. It matters not who is right or wrong. What matters is that Truth can never be spoken. It can only be known in the silence of one’s heart and being!

    Love and Light 🙂

  26. Back when I lived in the West Village of New York City, I knew a man who liked to refer to himself as “the most grateful dishwasher in the world.” He rented a small rent-controlled apartment (they existed back then) in the East Village and worked as a dishwasher for a small restaurant in Little Italy.

    His cramped apartment was also a weekly meeting place for a number of neighborhood residents who felt that he possessed certain spiritual gifts and insights.

    I remember one of the meeting’s participants asking him why he still worked as a dishwasher when he could charge a small fee for conducting the meetings.

    To which he responded (paraphrased), “if I charged people a fee for attending, I would be discriminating against those who wouldn’t be able to pay. No thanks. I’d rather wash dishes to pay my few bills than do that.”

    Humility was just one of his many gifts.

  27. Maybe like attracts like? Who knows?

    I’ve crossed paths with many a compassionate capitalist, to whom profit or greed was not an operating value.

    First one occurred as a kid growing up in The South Bronx.

    My family benefited from a physician who made house calls. Always said he was glad to receive, as compensation for his visits, what we were able to pay.
    And, in one instance, he even left a couple of bills on the kitchen table upon his departure.

    Yep. Plenty of life experiences, here, that shaped my respect for the value of asking only what people can afford for your services.

  28. Don’t believe in an “ideal world”. Believe that you always have a choice to do as most others are doing or not. Whatever the prevailing practices may be.

    As for after Dec. 21, Jill’s more qualified to answer that question than I am.

  29. Watch her at at work for 10 minutes at http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=O_zm78pkpl0&NR=1. I think she is doing some very good work here: authentic and helpful.

    And, by the way, I don’t agree with people who say that judgment is wrong. Before Enlightenment, it is absolutely necessary.

    After Enlightenment, of course, many things are different. Knowledge of reality depends on the state of consciousness. Each state has its own unique subjective reality:

    1. Waking: we act, we observe, there is an outside world. All is changing, within time.
    2. Sleeping: nothing happens. There is no awareness, no outside world, no time. The body gets restored.
    3. Dreaming: we act and observe in a fanciful or symbolic world that disappears when we wake or sleep. The body gets restored.
    4. Transcending or transcendence: we experience pure, unbounded awareness with no object of perception, no thinking, no outside awareness. The body gets restored, and even old stored internal stresses are dissolved. Transcending can be learned through Transcendental Meditation (TM) or Natural Stress Relief (NSR). It may also happen spontaneously during Zazen, Mindfulness, Vipassana, Self-inquiry, and many other forms of meditation, when we let go fully, even because we have become tired. It may happen after coma, general suffering, or other traumatic experiences. It starts to happen or grow during the other three states of consciousness, randomly, as stored stresses are eliminated by the nervous system.
    5. Enlightenment. Transcendence has become clear and permanent: it is the unbounded Witness. It is present during waking, sleeping, and dreaming. Reality is pure duality: The Witness is unchanging on one side, and everything we once were and did continue on the other side. These sides can be named the Absolute and the relative. The Absolute is immovable silence. The relative is activity (governed by the three gunas mentioned above).
    6. The dawning of pure devotion: we sense the finest level of creation. We are drawn to It and It is drawn to us.
    7. Unity consciousness: we know the Absolute (our unbounded Witness) even on the level of the senses. We know everything, relative and Absolute, to be One and Ourself.
    8. Brahman consciousness: the end-stage of Unity, in which the inner unboundedness (Atman, or jivatman) and the outer unboundedness (Brahman, or Paratman) are seen to always have been One.

    Note: because everyone starts off with a different personality and a different pattern of stored stresses, our spiritual progress may not be as orderly as this description implies.
    – David Spector

  30. @Igor V. “The difference has been addressed by me previously on various occasions: the darkness of the Shunya is more like a luminous black yet bottomlessly translucent like the night sky, while the deep-sleep (prior to being transcended) is like a pitch black cellar. The difference is vast.”

    Lots of gems in your posting Igor. I’ve always wondered about “out like a light” in deep dreamless sleep. Certainly not the division of effortful witnessing or “awakeness” during sleep. But I have to confess, something “knows” or “recognizes” the blackness, naturally and inherently.

  31. sownleotard (a variant of snowleopard?), I will try to use ‘discrimination’ or even ‘discernment’ (which is also a technical term in the Quaker religion), instead of ‘judgment’. I know this term tends to have a pejorative connotation in some circles. In any case, discrimination is sometimes said to be the main function of the intellect.

    I apologize for my ‘voice of authority’. I guess it’s second nature from having been trained as a TM teacher and having meditated and taught meditation for many years. But Rick has overcome that disability and can speak directly and humbly, and I believe I can, too. But if I slip, and speak with a teacher’s voice out of force of habit, I ask for your forgiveness. If you cannot manage that, I ask that you simply ignore me or ask that I go away, as is necessary. I do not wish to irritate anyone.

    I am, like you all, on a personal quest for Enlightenment, even while knowing that such a desire is paradoxical.

    My username derives from my being the president of Natural Stress Relief/USA, an all-volunteer organization. I basically print and distribute the NSR self-learning materials. But I’m not here to advertise, or to push our philosophy or methods. Am I permitted to participate even though I have a position and a viewpoint? I hope so. This appears to be a free and welcoming forum.

    By the way, even though the NSR course fee is only 4% of that of TM, I have reduced and eliminated the fee entirely when needed. I mention this in relation to the criticism of charging fees that has been voiced here.

    Someone has to do what I’m doing, for the good of the world, and I’m just lucky and grateful that I’m holding this position, even with my many flaws.

    I think you have excellent powers of discrimination, and I hope to be your friend and that of everyone here.

  32. Mike, I am not here to promote my business. I am not here to plug my business. I have already said why I am here, I am a seeker, perhaps like you. You are correct that it is very unlikely I would find a new client here. Most of my new clients come from Web searches by people who love the TM message but cannot afford the TM price. This is not what happens here.

    Batgap is not just about promoting any specific approach, it is about learning about the experience of awakening from those who have awakened.

    Please identify any NSR plugs to Rick privately and ask him to delete them. He can do that, I am sure.

    I have only explained in detail who I am, including my company information, because I was explicitly asked. I only have shared some humor and knowledge out of my sincere desire to share.

    If several people here would prefer that I not participate, I will leave quietly and immediately. I do not want to irritate you or anyone else. I understand how irritable we all are, but we really are in the same boat and perhaps should try to get along.

  33. And my username comes from my WordPress account. I will be happy to create a different account if at least one other person requests it.

  34. “Nasser:”
    Please stick around and continue to comment freely.
    We all need different points of view and I see nothing wrong with you mentioning your organization in the context of commenting on experiences and other interviewees.
    We need less Art for Art’s sake comments here and more honesty, without the sugar coating.
    More responses means more ways to evaluate whom Rick has interviewed, whether the responder does other spiritual practices or teaches them.

  35. As long as it isn’t blatant advertising and mentioned in the context of a response, why bother to police responses that mention costs of different practices?
    Who knows, someone might benefit from that and as you are aware, a vast number of responses in this section have little or nothing to do with the interview anyways, merrily wandering off into YouTube videos, personal greetings and weather in Canada, etc., not that those justify solicitations by anyone if done at all.
    I’d say, look at the whole response and intent: mine, yours, his and all.

  36. I hope this is the last defensive post I must make. I understand skepticism and cynicism, but it’s such a waste of energy arguing, when we can agree on the most important point in life: our thoughts don’t come from where we think they do (our ego or “will”). They come from the space between them, which is lively silence.

    @sownleotard: I did not mention NSR course fees in order to advertise NSR but to give you some idea of our authentic desire to share spiritual information in a way that can reach people. This goes to defending myself from the accusation that I am here to get clients rather than participate authentically. Strange that my words meant to reassure you only confirmed your idea that I was here to advertise. Like many aspects of Enlightenment, I cannot explain this apparent paradox.

    @Mike: Thank you for your welcome. I almost, but not quite, feel welcome here. “I’m simply saying you have promoted your thing here on more than one occassion, whether you think so or not.” Okay, fine. Please contact Rick in private and complain. Tell him I authorize him to delete any words of mine that are seen as commercial in nature. Frankly, I’m not aware of it. “carrying on long-winded, often baffling conversations between your identities, in part because others have decided not to enagage with you anymore, is pretty sad.” Wow, such negativity, even if true.

    @greese: “We need less Art for Art’s sake comments here and more honesty, without the sugar coating.” Sounds good to me. I’m no good with sugar coatings, myself. Never learned tact or social graces as a child. Don’t like to employ them as a 66-year-old adult. I’ve paid most of my dues by now.

    @Mike: I mentioned that the NSR course (whatever that is) is 4% the cost of TM because I was trying to get across that we are not trying to make a profit on spirituality. I don’t even pay myself a salary. Again, if I mention ANYTHING that seems commercial, ask Rick to delete it, with my permission. He is smart enough to make his own good discernments.

    @snowleopard: I did contribute toward’s Rick’s latest webcam, if that counts. I feel so defensive. “anyone who is compelled in a heart-felt way to bring us to the presence of Grace that can finally bring an end to anyone’s suffering” yes, that’s exactly what I do, every day, in my work. “even if they charge for that help” people won’t value it if I don’t charge for it, and I need some money for postage, envelopes, printing, web hosting, etc.

    David Spector

  37. @dominic: Thanks for your perceptive words. I find such direct feedback helpful. “Watch the collapse. Slightest hint of conflict, disapproval, and veiled annoyance from others and you become all Mr Nice guy/Pleaser’. All humble and placatory…too much. Was there a lot of scary anger/bullying in the family home you had to survive through?” Yes, my father was a bully, and his anger was VERY scary. My mother compensated too much, over-loving me. Quite a conflict. I know I’m a nice guy, I know I hwlp people, so I want approval, and I dislike criticisms, which I see as unfair. Just my ego, of course, but it’s very strong and has a will of its own.

    I’ve learned that expressing equal and opposite negativity results in nothing but conflict and suffering. What’s the point? You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. If you want to catch flies, which I do. I want a friendly environment so I can enjoy the fellowship.

    “As well as all the nice quiet peaceful smiley type meditations you’re doing, you gotta kick some ass!”
    I don’t see the value. Whenever I’m in a nice, quiet, peaceful environment more gets done, and it has a better and more lasting quality. My goal is to counter attacks with peace. It worked for Gandhi, or at least to achieve his goals. Granted, I’ve got a big ego, and I’m convinced I’ve “paid my dues”. But I feel I must keep on paying until my enemies are converted into friends. I will learn from experience, and I will use my honesty as my shield.

    “Did you ever do similar work or have you always been a ‘nice holy’ TM teacher…?” Yes, I’ve done Janov “primal scream” therapy and lots of other cathartic-theory work. It didn’t help at all. But my pleasant, effortless, sugary TM practice has done lots to improve many areas of my life. It is currently helping me and my partner prepare for marriage.

    I guess my conclusion from all these interchanges of the last few hours is that this isn’t worth it for me. I don’t really want friends like this, and I don’t really enjoy being on the receiving end of bullying, even if I do have meditation to wash away my stresses twice a day.

    So I wish everyone well and I will leave this thread. I will definitely read your final comments to me, if any, so you can have the last word. That’s only polite.

  38. If it hurts – it isn’t humor in my opinion. New visitors to the site don’t have the history that has evolved between various posters – and I think that should be kept in mind. There’s a lot of fishing and baiting that goes on – but if someone feels bullied that doesn’t sit well with me.

  39. Shall we return to the actual interview ? 🙂

    Mada ~ I didn’t mean for Rick to take a bullet for my comment, for indeed I’ve asked him in our ongoing correspondence to share my immediate responses here, basically to avoid being fully drawn into a discussion at this (particularly busy for me) time.

    To make it clear, I did enjoy your interview very much. It was Snowleapard who introduced your forthcoming talk in advance plus he shared some links to your work so I’ve made sure to watch it. On a personal level I found your presence being most lovable and uplifting, but more importantly that of an awakened being. That did not distract my attention from what you’ve shared in-between and through your very words.

    ‘ve read your response to Rick here, which meant to address myself. As I agree that sharing or putting into words what is lived reality is not an easy task, I also am fully aware of the years you’ve been doing so and that gave me a green light to address some holes in your exposition.

    As an adept you are surely not a novice when it comes to the spiritual discourses and disagreements they often bring. One of the reasons teachers or teachers alike disagree is for the benefit of the seeker who might be exposed to these exchanges, for often these ”disagreements” shed more light than patting on the shoulder can do.

    In view of that I’d like to share an extract of my private exchanges with Jill, who btw, endorsed you in our exchanges as being awakened and intelligent being. Jill wrote to me in response to my comment posted by Rick where she shared her own traversing through the three states as well as confirming my personal observations. Here was my following response which I believe relevant to be shared here:

    I am with you completely regarding the witnessing being an interim, though it takes some longer than others to pass through. And of course in my letter to Rick I meant to address just that – the dissolution of the ‘three cities’ (waking, dreaming, deep-sleep). 

    Both you and I know and have witnessed many practitioners who have gained glimpses of that painful state (what is technically known as CC), and in my experience (as well as working with the others) the deep-sleep was often the last city to surrender. The reason for that is simple – it is the store house of all our impressions (doesn’t give in easily). People report witnessing dreams but when it comes to deep-sleep most still describe it as void or black hole – means they haven’t passed through.

    I’ve just read Mada’s response (she thought the comment was coming from Rick), and even though she made attempts to brush it as being too subtle and hard to relate, named it ‘black hole’ again. 

    That’s what struck me when listening the interview, they were discussing the nature of witnessing throughout the states and Mada described it as she did. Immediately after Mada equated Nirvana with the experience of deep-sleep in meditation and that is a gross misunderstanding of which a lot has been said not just by myself, but by great teachers in the past.

    The example with the candle is Osho’s, not Buddha’s, and Nirvana as (miss)understood by many followers of buddhism has been given critical reviewing by likes of Adi Shankara and more recently by MMY. In any case there are no black holes for the one who is fully established in the Self, for Consciousness is self-luminous. 

    Yes, witnessing could be like looking through the glass of different degree of transparency, or like opening one’s eyes in water or even like a hawk hovering above. Witnessing deep-sleep is like opening our eyes in deep waters, nothing to see, yet it’s no longer void like experience, there is light. The intensity does not stay the same, indeed with the dissolution of the subject, the ”I” the witnessing takes on a very different quality.

    For one, there is no longer separation and in that flow of ”sameness” witnessing itself dissolves. Like you said, the flow is not longer interrupted by the coming and going of the natural order (aka waking, dreaming, deep-sleep). 

    To give a more powerful example, if (God forbid) you or I were knocked down, we would not loose consciousness in a common sense of that term. 

    Not to scratch your back, but when you express your experiences with this or that state or when you speak of the ultimate there are no grey areas. I think when we speak directly from our experience we are crystal clear when it comes to conveying what needs to be conveyed. I didn’t mean to dig under Mada’s level of attainment, but since she put herself above a thousand teachers she has opened herself to criticism. 

    Yet the main purpose of my comment was to address the importance of ‘being without the three gunas’ – being beyond the reach of the energetic fluctuation which we are made of as an embodied Self. 


    Otherwise Snow is right we have more in common even if what I’ve pointed out reads as otherwise.

    Btw, Snow ~ the Gunas are not the map it’s more like a minute composition of who you are on an embodied level, which can only be changed via powerful alchemical transformation, but even then the trans-formaiton would have to follow that minute combination before the qualities of nature have no sway over the process of Being in Becoming.

  40. Ernest ~ thank you for your kind comment. You’ve shared:
    ”… I’ve always wondered about “out like a light” in deep dreamless sleep. Certainly not the division of effortful witnessing or “awakeness” during sleep. But I have to confess, something “knows” or “recognizes” the blackness, naturally and inherently.”
    Of course in a human being, Consciousness is never fully veiled – that’s the whole enigma. Even when the three relative states have a full grip there is awareness however dimmed that makes us what we are. So when it comes to the deep-sleep, even the one in whom consciousness is in a dormant state (as it were) still on awakening from the dreamless state one reports – ”slept well, there was nothing, just blanked out”. Obviously ‘someone’ is witnessing that ‘nothingness’ of the deep-sleep.
    When awakening is powerful enough the awareness is permanent and not lost in any circumstances. The Gunas of course carry on their job as usual, yet awareness is no longer overshadowed by any permutability of Nature. Deep-sleep is no longer blackout, but a state of full rest where awareness coalesces in dimmed luminosity of nothingness.
    The experience of deep-sleep in meditation is actually known in christianity as the ‘dark night of the soul’. Many mystics went through it was years, most famously St Peter who called it the agony of separation. There is nothing happening in that state, one meditates and there is nothing… no bliss, no sign, no flicker… Just a thick black veil.
    That is traversing through the tunnel of countless karmic impressions. Often coming out of that state is accompanied by rapturous revelations and/or visions of light, albeit some loose faith in their strength to go through that most doubting of all experiences. But worst still is when some mistakenly make this transitory ‘nothingness’ into that of Void. Shunya is glorious its everything but dull.

  41. ”So if I understand, you’re basically saying you think she’s awake, but hasn’t described her experience clearly? Or are you saying she’s awake, but there is more to go, based on as you say, “the holes in her exposition”? Just trying to decipher your comments.”

    There is more to it.

    Here are some more extracts of my exchanges with Jill. This is what I wrote:

    ”… Mada is certainly awakened, intelligent and sensitive being – that was an incentive to share. And when the emphasis was put on witnessing, and it continued in that same way, it become apparent to me that what she calls Enlightenment is the state of witnessing. She actually said: ” the whole point of all this is to become a witness”. Well, what about those of us who have been witnessing from an early age and knew that’s not it? There is more to it. Whence my comment…

    About healing. Interestingly enough the maximum of healing and psychic abilities are usually accompany the subtle duality of CC (I can testify). When I was practicing pranic healing, close to MMY person in TM movement told me about an indian lady who was a powerful healer, awakened next to MMY. She once asked the guru advice, how to go about it in terms of her path towards enlightenment. Maharishi’s reply was:

    ”nothing wrong in wanting to remove someone’s suffering when there is enough prana going in that direction… However, if your objective is to become One with That, that’s where all your prana should go… Then removing suffering would become your natural state…”.

    Hearing this words of the beloved Master, quickly cleared my views on the efforts of helping others.”

    I’ve consciously withdraw from the healing practices, and it was immediately clear to me that there was more work to be done on myself.

    That’s not to say we are all made to the same measure.

  42. Chuck ~ no doubt all true re-valuation takes place within on that level when all these noise subsides.

    When we talk about Grace though, it is not up to us to relax into it or to be overthrown by its Power. (That’s my 2 cents based on working with people anyway). Sometimes Grace comes uninvited at other times we spend lifetime waiting for Her.

    Gunas, what are they? Here is Ramana (who commands more respect than any other teachers here, whence we’ll use his words as a point in making):


    Question: Does a jnani have Sankalpas (desires)?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: The main qualities of the ordinary mind are Tamas (sloth, inertia) and Rajas (passion, excitement); hence it is full of egoistic desires and weaknesses. But the jnani’s mind is Suddhi-Sattva (pure harmony) and formless, functioning in the subtle Vijnanmayakosha (the sheath of knowledge), through which he keeps contact with the world. His desires are therefore also pure.

    Question: What is the relation between the pure consciousness realised by the jnani and the ‘I am’-ness, which is accepted as the primary datum of experience?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: The undifferentiated consciousness of pure being is the Heart or Hridayam, which is what you really are. From the Heart arises the ‘I am’-ness as the primary datum of one’s experience. By itself it is completely pure (suddha-sattva) in character. It is in this form of pristine purity (suddha-sattva-swarupa), uncontaminated by Rajas and Tamas (activity and inertia, that the ‘I’ appears to subsist in the jnani.


    And more on dreaming, sleeping:


    Question: Does a jnani have dreams?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: Yes, he does dream, but he knows it to be a dream, in the same way as he knows the waking state to be a dream. You may call them dream number one and dream number two. The jnani being established in the fourth state-Turiya, the supreme reality- he detachedly witnesses the three other states, waking, dreaming and dreamless sleep, as pictures superimposed on it.

    For those who experience waking, dream and sleep, the state of wakeful sleep, which is beyond those three states, is named Turiya (the fourth). But since that Turiya alone exists and since the seeming three states do not exist, know for certain that turiya is itself turiyatitta (that which transcends the fourth).

    Question: For the jnani then, there is no distinction between the three states of mind?

    Sri Ramana Maharshi: How can there be, when the mind itself is dissolved and lost in the light of consciousness?

    For the jnani all the three states are equally unreal. But the ajnani is unable to comprehend this, because for him the standard of reality is the waking state, whereas for the jnani the standard is reality itself. This reality of pure consciousness is eternal by its nature and therefore subsists equally during what you call waking, dreaming and sleep. To him who is one with that reality there is neither the mind nor its three states and, therefore, neither introversion nor extroversion.

    His is the ever waking state, because he is awake to the eternal Self; his is the ever dreaming state, because to him the world is no better than a repeatedly presented dream phenomenon; his is the ever sleeping state, because he is at all times without the ‘body-am I’ consciousness.


  43. ”…I thought it interesting what you said about CC being painful, Vama. In the mid 90′s in Fairfield there was a group who met weekly to talk about awakening after several folks popped. There was a woman there who was experiencing what seemed to be CC, and she was not happy. She felt disconnected and lost…”

    Yes, very much so, Chuckee. I can add based on what people relate to me in various conditions, it is hard to deal with Spiritual Emergency yet it’s nothing in comparison with the agony of someone who is in CC and feeling the rupture between the Self and the world out there.

    Mainly because those who are in the state of spiritual emergency are usually novices and need immediate assurance and direction. But those in CC have been there and seen it all, so it takes more to help to bridge the gap and it could take a while.

  44. Wow – take a break for a day and miss a lot here..

    Nsrusa – I’m sorry if your feelings were hurt by certain posts…best to just not engage and follow your instincts as to who you want to communicate with..and ignore the rest – just know you are welcome here…

    Vama – thank you for all your posts – just beautiful – I’m sure it will help many get clearer on their experience of witnessing and sleep in particular…which is why I suggested yesterday you post some of our private correspondence..

    Just to add to the conversation, I have found it baffling that some meditators still nurse the erroneous idea that witnessing goes on in the state of liberation..It’s the acid test for them and it’s just not so….

    In enlightenment, the witness dissolves into the Absolute, and witnessing is no more..It goes on in the waking dreaming and deep sleep states, up to and UNTIL liberation..until one passes through the void -at least that’s been the experience here and of others I know…Then sleep is restored to its natural rejuvenating function..

    Witnessing during deep sleep is but a stage just as it is in waking and dreaming state..although it is more of a marker for things to come than the other two..

    There is a transition stage however, for some -as we discussed yesterday where there is witnessing, alternating with deep sleep (conking out) as Mada spoke of – but finally and absolutely – there is seamlessless between all 3 states of mind….with no differentiation…always awake..when we are resting beyond mind in the heart of the Self….

    Then the grosser more illuminative aspect of witnessing deep sleep, which I have described as looking through a glass window and you described as seeing under water – fully awake while the body is sleeping soundly- is experienced in a much subtler fashion..

    So to be clear – when there is complete dissolution of the I thought – the grosser aspect of awakeness is not as apparent anymore as it was in the transitional stage..Awakeness without the witness is on a much subtler level as we ever deepen into being..and the three states are one..Then it just IS..

    Yes the witnessing state for some is torturous – it was for me – as the separation from God/Self/Love is the most extreme form of torture…which is why our dear guru used to say that we’re lucky if we pass through that stage quickly…Unfortunately some do not..more difficult without a living teacher..

    But we have to distinguish this ecstatic/tortuous longing as our saints and poets have written so beautifully of, from the often tortuous existence of everyday life in duality with all it’s ups and downs..They are not one and the same..The witnessing state at least provides some detachment – from the heart’s extreme longing..

    As I’ve said here many times before – Love is the key to all of this…Grace…which is divine love’s influence on the heart – It is the only thing that bridges the gap…If we are lucky enough to meet it in in a form we can’t deny, I say sell the silver and go sit with it…

    As we move into more calamitous times – we want to be established in the peace and joy of being where we can no longer be rocked to the core…

    Love to all..

  45. Hey sownleotard or dominic or whoever you are. I’m again receiving complaints about some of your posts. Some people are leaving or declining to participate because of you. Please refrain from attacking people and if you want to post things that have nothing to do with a particular interview, please do that in the General Comments section. Last warning.

  46. What a wonderful interview. Am I right in saying that Eliza’s technique is very similar to kinesology, EFT or FFT? ANd how true, masters, rather than those just awakend, tend to teach or leave a leagcy like OSHO or currently Sri, Sri Ravi Shankar, ie Art of Living.

  47. *adds a word of caution*

    The temptation to compare the fruit of someone else’s meditation with that of yours… and opine that the other person’s experiences should proximate yours… is a very strong one, to be sure.

    And I’ve been asked countless times, by those who have joined me in my meditational adventures, for a “map” for them to use along the way.

    When you’re here/now, however, maps are unnecessary. For every point on any map is always here/now.

  48. No maps guys – or hard and fast rules – but commonalities of experience or ‘markers’ that many awake ones pass through, sometimes are addressed here…

    Many teachers such as Adya felt compelled to lay out a ‘qualities of awakening’ experiential map because he noticed, as many of us who speak to lots of seekers have, that there are certain milestones that are commonly experienced along the route…

    These are not written in stone – but I think that his reasoning was that people who might think they are done at first awakening – might benefit from seeing the fuller picture..

    MMY’s map was to give a vision of possibilities as well – also not to be taken as written in stone – certainly not in it’s ‘linear’ delineation..Outside of time, Reality is not seen as progressive or linear..As Rick noted to me the other day in an e-mail – the map was given for the man on the street..and makes little sense to the awakened mind..

    Certainly not everyone wants or needs any outline -I agree with Peter on that – and no map is best I’ve found when guiding someone one on one – as innocence coupled with no expectations – brings quick results – but when people – particularly TMers write with questions about sleep or some other difficult passageway – Vama and I feel compelled to clarify..as best we can.. speaking from our direct experience..


  49. No, no maps, but commonalities of experience. Thank you Jill, and thank you for synthesizing this at times slippery topics.

    This commonalties are based on years of experience of observing the process, and despite the uniqueness we all share the same nervous system. The system is not different from the rest of creation and some are convinced to be a reflection of Universe in its entirety.

    The symptomatology of awakening is not different from the diagnostics made on painstaking observation of this or that illness. Since all true spiritual practices are aimed at the recovery on the level where disease has been plucking the soul, the remedies are often remarkably similar.

    Experienced teacher can diagnose the progress or the lack of it, with an accuracy which can only come from experience not the text-books or map description.

    After all the variety is greater at the base, the range becomes narrower with the ascend, culminating in the same flavor regardless of the uniqueness of each individual conditioning.


    Something else, from Jill’s beautiful comment on the previous page:

    ”…But we have to distinguish this ecstatic/tortuous longing as our saints and poets have written so beautifully of, from the often tortuous existence of everyday life in duality with all it’s ups and downs..They are not one and the same..The witnessing state at least provides some detachment – from the heart’s extreme longing…”

    This is an important distinction, which many confuse as coming from the same place. The longing of separation born of duality in the dormant state is not the same as the longing of the witnessing. Indeed detachment makes all difference.

    The detachment of the witnessing state is already a realization. For the Self has been realized and lived within, even if still perceived as separate from the field of activity, it is nevertheless liberation. Albeit not the full glory of the Self lived on the level beyond division of any kind.

    P. S.
    Speaking of the loftiness of the witnessing state, Prophet Mohammed has Qur’an reveled to him in the state of Cosmic Consciousness. It took the Sufi mystics to bring Oneness into the core of the teaching known as the ‘Eternal Submission to the Will of God’. Unfortunately still overshadowed by the polarized interpretation of Islam.

    Polarized and politicized.

  50. I have never been part of a blog like this before, so this has been an interesting experience, seeing the way the dialogue goes with one another.

    In the past I have participated in a forum where I have discussed practical things that are changing within me, and practical things that are getting in my way. In this way the emphasis is on transformation.

    My observation is that there is tremendous amount of mind chatter on this blog, which of course all of you know, is the thing that gets in our way from experiencing true transformation. I am not generalising, since there is much being discussed which is helpful too.

    I felt I needed to share that, because the mind analysing and understanding is a great way to grasp things at first and is a needed process, but after a while the true knowing happens when we move from our mind, to the innocence of our hearts, and eventually into intuition and beyond. This all has to be experiential.

    I feel some of you on this blog are actually preventing others from staying open to what could be life-changing experiences.

    I misrepresented my statements earlier by using a word such as “dissolved” in haste. The word that I should have used was “transformed and transcended” instead, if that helps. Language is hard to use, when describing the spontaneous nature of changed circumstances that are no longer crippling us.

    As for being in a honeymoon phase with the guide that I have found, I just wanted to add that I am very happy with where my path has taken me, and take full responsibility for my own choices. It has taken tremendous courage to face my own darkness and tremendous work to transform those hidden areas. Mada simply shone a torch with her own light to areas that I was unconscious of, but ultimately the work had to be done by myself. The individual offering me his help, clearly could do with some of Mada’s assistance or from someone of her calibre if he too wants to wake up.

    I saw a post about group discount requests from Mada. For anyone interested, I am attaching a link, on a free teleclass that she offers. At that time, she offers individual support and answers specific questions that people would like to address.


    Thank you for taking the time to read. xx

  51. Kindi..
    Thanks for posting here and sharing your experience with Mada who many of us enjoyed listening to..and found to be a highly aware and intuitive being..with much to offer..

    The kind of blog or group that I think you’re used to, where people reveal their experiences in the Presence of, is called satsang – defined as sitting with the Truth of oneself and/or someone who represents the living Truth- and I heartily agree that this is most effective in triggering transformation…Satsang, as you probably know, is going on all around the world on every continent..

    As people trust more and more here at batgap, they do reveal their burdens and their joys and I’ve tried to encourage it…but in truth…whatever and whenever and how much one is comfortable revealing, is up to them…can’t be forced..

    Some start out hiding behind a curtain but as the process continues more and more openness is cultivated…as there is a freedom in that..After all, one of the trademarks of an awakening soul is that there is increasingly nothing to hide – as all comes to be seen as one’s own Self..

    Some of us on here are teachers and have been working either publicly or privately for many years so tend to offer more explanations or clarifications than sharing of the seeking experience..Many also come from a TM background like Rick which emphasized that knowledge or discernment of the experience is as important as the experience..

    Of course we know that as one awakens and the conditioning fades into oblivion, one speaks less from mind and more from the heart of Brahman and that voice is Self Evident to one who has also met the Self..

    So welcome and I hope you continue finding the ever deepening bliss of Self –

  52. Chuckee, my email igoranvar@gmail.com

    Drop me a line or a letter with whatever comes out without much dressing it. I’ve witnessed enough openness nakedness, and went through the emotional stripping myself to understand…

    Just to relate to what you’ve shared in your last few posts, what is being said here is not that important but what meant here is. It is not a surprise that you are sensing what is being said beneath or between the lines.

    Standing at the edge of the cliff is not a pleasant experience, but making that blind step into the unknown compensates for countless years of silent suffering.

    I’m not here to encourage or to discourage you, but just to let you know that you’ll be fine for Grace never forsakes those who can make that leap of faith.

    With Love & Grace

  53. Chuckee –
    Be glad to chat anytime – Rick has my e-mail – feel free to write and just simply tell how you feel..and what is perceived to be going on right now..straight from the heart…sometimes writing it out brings it into clarity..

    It sounds from here as though something is shifting.. I kinda felt in your recent e-mails that you had come to the core.. that you were tired of the game and willing to die….guess Francis did his job in stirring the pot…..We all play a game of hide and seek with ourselves..until we don’t…

    So not to worry…only the mind’s idea of the jump is scary…the actual falling into the Self is sweet..just a Silence like no other….not effortful..just a letting go..realizing it’s not up to us…You can’t do this -can only relax and allow it to have you..

    This is your time…sending Love..

  54. Thanks snowleopard for your kind post. It is all a play, and it is not always necessary that we agree on everything. Our paths and experiences as well as our journeys vary. All instruments bring their unique sound vibrations to make it a one big orchestra. All is well when things are shared through the heart!

  55. Dear Igor, I will respond to your post once I’ve recovered from my dental work~shock (may take a couple of days). But brace yourself, as I have some things to say to you as well, and this is because you too have asked for it, ha, ha! 🙂

  56. This comment will probably reflect that in my heart of hearts I have one foot in the devotional tradition, probably seen as the “lesser tradition” from the perspective of non-dual circles. I can appreciate “just this” or “something knows” in deep dreamless sleep with the sacrifice of all individual identity and division between knower and known. But the non-dual and “enlightenment” (note the term) traditions reflects a set of values that emphasizes “seeing”.

    At a certain point one realizes there are other intelligences, such as that of the heart. Forgetting about “seeing” or “knowing”, I can certainly appreciate the value of just “resting”, letting go of all will, letting go of “something to survive”, “plunging into unknown” (and letting it be such), “surrender”, and finally love. This seems to me to include more of the total being, not just detached seeing. It involves not only transcendence, but that of healing. It moves from detached neutrality to something of positive value, not just positive value in the abstract, global, and energetic sense, but positive value in the particular expressions in this messy human life and incarnation.

    For whatever one may think of Near Death Experiences (NDE’s), one theme rings strongly intuitively true for me from the reports of those who have undergone such an experience. And that is God is Love. Love is a central value and a meaning in this human existence. And in our everyday existence, in our conflicted and imperfect world, we make choices with the awareness of the question “is this loving or not” or “does it serve the higher good”.

  57. I met Mada in July at her Omega workshop and my life has forever changed. Her five-day workshop at $350.00 was very reasonable, and I cannot even put a price on what I took away from the experience. I am forever grateful for the gift that Mada is sharing with the world.

    I am not a Blogger, but I just want to express my gratitude for Mada.

    With Love,
    Caren G

  58. Dear Mada ~ sorry to hear about the dental work, I wish you a speedy recovery.

    No worries take you time to say what needs to be said. I surely did ask for it, but instead of bracing allow me to face you with an open heart… bring it on!

    With Love

    P. S. I’m at the SAND next week till beginning of the following week, just incase your response comes during that time, but I’ll be happy to read it on my return.

  59. wow… there has been A LOT of meaty content in this comment thread the past few days…

    It’s tough enough just trying to keep track of the multiple subjects and parallel conversations going on, but I feel the need to jump in with some comments before the conversation heads into more new directions….
    Re: Disagreements, Heated Debates, Direct Challenges & criticisms

    “I like watching train wrecks.” I shared this multiple times with a local friend with my spiritual circles, and at first he totally could not relate at all. But more recently, he has said that he’s learned and joined on, he can now enjoy watching train wrecks. In the past, he would get extremely uncomfortable around heated conversations, which was probably due to reasons like: He felt uncomfortable around the chaos, he felt his inner peace was being threatened by exterior environment, and he felt unease because of an unconscious need to fix things..

    It is part of human nature for people to ‘Rubberneck’ when they are driving by a car accident. Part of it is natural curiosity, but another part may be an unconscious need to see violence and the unknown. It’s really unusual though, when there is a big traffic slow down, and it ends up being something very minor, like one or two cars on the shoulder, one getting a flat tire changed. That sort of debunks the theory of ‘unconscious need to see violence’, but there still may be an unconscious need to see and investigate a potentially unknown danger, or a potential opportunity to see carnage….

    I don’t think I like watching train wrecks because I primarily want to see conflict or violence. For me, I see it as a potential opportunity to see people being HONEST and true. I can also get a better feel for other people, people can reveal hidden aspects of themselves when they’re in disagreement. I can see what they value and don’t value. I also see how identified they are with their mental positions and ideology, based on how they defend them, and how unreasonably they attack or dismiss others. I also see it as a good learning opportunity, I get to use and evaluate other’s opinions, conclusions, assumptions, ideas, etc, and now I can compare them with mine, challenge my own, challenge theirs, and by adding all of that information to my knowledge base, I can come to a better more informed position…..

    In summary, I usually learn more when people disagree and conversations get heated. When everyone stays on safe topics or just talk about things all parties mostly agree about, yes it makes for peaceful and ‘feel good’ conversation, but I usually learn less and get less out of that type of communication.

    Also I might be a bit of an ’empath’, so when people are putting on a spiritual and peaceful front, often times I get an emotional hit / insight of in-congruency, what I’m taking in mentally doesn’t jive with what I’m feeling emotionally. I feel that there’s some sort of deception going on, but mentally don’t have enough information to figure it out.

    So, differences of opinion can be very useful and needed. Genuine spiritual inquiry should be very vigorous on challenging your own positions, beliefs and conclusions. With that same skill, it’s only natural to do the same with conversations with others. BUT we should be cautious to not fall into the trap of over-identifying with our beliefs, because then we take it too personal when someone else simply shares a difference of opinion.
    Re: Maps, Models, Intuition, standards, common language

    Maps can be both useful but also a hinderance. If you rely too much on someone else’s map, that can just add more frustration and unnecessary personal pressure. However if you’ve been exploring yourself and trying to make sense of your experiences and setting up some sort of internal map, then it can be useful to use someone else’s map for comparison and insight. Let’s say you’re totally lost and confused, looking at someone else’s map, may point you to an incorrect assumption or expectation that you had.

    Maps on the spiritual path might have infinite dimensions and levels, unlike road maps which are 2 dimensional. So many maps out there might be totally worthless to you, because you’re traversing a different dimension, level, or category. Also we tend to think in linear terms, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc., each individual can be travelling in their own unique order, or sometimes going through different levels at the same time.

    Homeostasis – multiple levels of balance and equilibrium – ie. mental, physical, emotional, psychological, energetic, spiritual, etc
    Spiritual addiction – “So heavenly minded, no earthly good.”

    It can be easy to hide in spirituality, or to over-use spiritual practices and techniques. You take your car to a car mechanic, but you get your hair cut from a barber, and you go to a hospital for a broken leg. Some over-use meditation and spiritual practices as a way to avoid emotional and psychological health and also as a way to avoid life. Transcendence doesn’t have to be the only technique.

    What’s missing in modern western spirituality is a common language and standards. There is too much confusion out there caused by different definitions of very commonly used terms and pointers. What exactly is awakening, realization, enlightenment, ego, suffering, freedom, witnessing, consciousness, awareness, presence, self, love, etc.
    It can be extremely confusing just trying to keep up with the many different definitions and expectations of various teachers and seekers. It’s inevitable that there’s going to be strong differences of opinions when everyone has significantly differing definitions of big terms.

    But… I can’t think of an easy solution, but I can identify it as a major cause for a lot of confusion and mis-communication.
    Re: Past lives & Reincarnation

    Why does it matter that much if someone believes in it or not? Why shouldn’t people be allowed to fully explore it if they’re interested?

    Tibetan buddhists seem to believe in it and use it to choose tulku’s (reincarnated lamas for high ranking positions)..

    What has seemed common from past lives stories (ie. Brian Weiss past life regressionist therapist & author of many lives many masters) is that death traumas in past lives can carry over to current life, and techniques to revisit and release that ‘past life’ emotional baggage can be helpful. So if you have unexplainable trauma or strong emotional reactions, maybe it might be researching if it might be from a past life. Past life regression therapy is pretty common among new age healers & some therapists.
    Role play -> Teacher, Healer, Therapist, Coach, Expert, Client, Patient, Devotee, Student, Seeker, Peer, etc

    “Caveat Emptor”, “Buyer beware” – Let the buyer beware.
    “Due diligence” is a term used for a number of concepts involving either an investigation of a business or person prior to signing a contract, or an act with a certain standard of care. It can be a legal obligation, but the term will more commonly apply to voluntary investigations.

    Caveat Emptor & Due diligence are usually terms referring to property sales or business transactions, but it can also be used for spiritual and healing transactions.

    It is the responsibility of the customer (seeker, client, student, etc.) to investigate and evaluate the vendor of services (teacher, healer, therapist, etc), and then decide whether whatever price is charged or donation given, is of worthwhile value to the customer.

    Some vendors charge a lot of money, some charge nothing. Sometimes they deliver a lot of value for the higher cost, sometimes when it’s free or too cheap, you might get negative value. There are no government agencies or independent standard organizations that regulate the very open and wild wild west world of spirituality, healing, faith, energy workers, etc.

    — Wounded healer phenomena -> Wounded Teacher?

    It’s pretty common that many doctors, therapists and healers have a personal history of severe injury in their past. That created a strong motivation and drive for them to research and devote a good portion of their life to self healing. Then unconsciously they devote their lives to healing of others as way to deal with their own unresolved pain and emotional baggage.

    So there is the same danger when people take on the Teacher or Guru role, it can be very easy to get attached to power role, invulnerability and also use that position to project your pain unconsciously upon students and clients. It feels good to think you’re helping or saving someone, very prideful and ego fulfilling, “I DID IT, I am awesome, people love me.”, but underneath all that is still unresolved vulnerability and excess sensitivity to criticisms, blind spots, and unresolved stuff.

    — devoted student of the present moment

    Devotion is often overlooked within non-dual circles… Traditional devotion usually refers to focusing on a guru, diety, or a particular spiritual practice. But devotion can also be simply devotion to being fully conscious and responsible to whatever your responsibilities are in life. And as a student or seeker, every single experience of life offers an opportunity to learn and grow. So even if you are with a flawed dishonest teacher or guru, you can still learn a lot. A big part and benefit of the student/teacher role, is about simply being a devoted conscious student. The teacher is just there to be a mirror, a lot of the actual teachings you already know or are easily available from many sources.

    The pointer of ‘beginner’s mind’ comes to mind. 😉
    Re: Batgapia is not a euphoric all welcoming utopia

    While many mention some variation of ‘all are welcome’, this is really not that friendly of a community.

    Many regulars hold very strong views and can be quite openly critical, challenging and skeptical to other’s views.

    But generally it’s not with the intent of a personal attack, but it can come across and feel that way to a new person, who is over-eager to share insights with a spiritual community that looks friendly. But then can be suddenly shocked by very skeptical responses.

    I suppose I will side with “Realizing the truth is serious business, it’s not all about just feeling good.”

    But, we should also try to respect and honor the very human need and ‘Right to defend our own ideology’.

    Not feeling like you’ve been heard hurts. Getting challenged by multiple people feels like bullying.

    But having our pains genuinely shared, felt and understood by others, that’s compassion.


    I know this might be long winded, but I wanted to address a lot of topics….. I’m mostly just talking to myself and talking out loud. Just sharing some thoughts, and maybe it might be useful for someone else. If not, it was useful for me to get them written down. Not trying to intentionally offend or attack anyone in particular.

  60. OMG – spoke volumes and to a depth I haven’t heard in any of the enlightenment talk. Beautiful Vamadeva.

  61. Humblest thanks, to you both, Ising and Snow.

    Not to turn it into a one-man show, here is the last one from a while ago. Btw, Anvar is my middle name:


    Were all the rush has gone –


    Suspended will, desires are none –


    No remorse left, instead –


    Only the humming of bees –


    Soothing the Heart, broken into –


    Who am I ? echoing –


    I’m That, never born –

    Ocean of ever flawing



    – Anvar, Sep 2002 –

  62. Valentino:

    Is that a shaka hand gesture I see in your pic? Can’t absolutely tell ’cause my ‘puter is a dinosaur..

    If is it, aloha!.

    My daughter was born on Oahu.


  63. Peter,
    Yes, that’s a shaka sign, the photo was taken last year on the island of Oahu, while I was hiking to a small waterfall off the old Pali highway.

    I have visited Hawaii 3 times, with one visit for 30 days, so I did get a taste for the local lingo, customs and food, but wouldn’t consider myself a local. Never fully got into the Pidgen slang language. I did visit Philippines several times totaling about 2.5 years, so I am familiar with the island lifestyle though.

    South Park’s most recent episode #12 of season 16 actually pokes fun of Hawaii, their customs, and the separation between locals & tourists. It also shares some great insights into anger, Butters who is normally overly positive, kind, nice and a bit of a pushover, suddenly goes ballistic and is pissed off at anyone and everything. But with that anger, he is also brutally honest and shares some very critical but also honest observations of the other characters and their flaws. Sometimes some TV shows share some great lessons on human psychology, the writers have to be both creative but also have studied human behavior.

    The latest South Park episode is available for free online at southparkstudios dot com.

    Mahalo for the greet..

    Aloha nui loa (very much love, very much aloha)

  64. Valentino: I love South Park, I have referred to it here before. No holds barred on that show, and yes, some wonderful insights into human psychology. And sometimes, it just feels good to laugh your arse off. They make it an even playing ground. No one, and I mean no one, is off limits or too special to be made fun of. Irreverant and enlightening simultaneously. oops……this should be in general comments.

  65. I am surprised by the analysis of children’s perception of kissing and sexuality. Yes children call kissing by adults “yucky” and are not eager to see it, but is this due to conditioning? My parents never told me to look away from kissing. Are we to attribute all age-related differences in perception of sexuality to heavy handed onerous conditioning by parents and religion?

  66. If sexual abuse were higher among clerics that are abstinent, how would one demonstrate that as a fact and a cause? How would one really know that? The alternative hypothesis would be that some sexual abuse victims later in adulthood enter professions where society says they can “check their sexuality at the door” in hopes of avoiding the psychic shadow of the trauma of youth. I worry when gurus make big assumptions about sociology.

  67. I suspect, batfly, that the boobtube exerts a lot of influence in how its addicted viewers respond to kissing and sexuality.

    I grew up watching the grown-ups of Father Knows Best, The Donna Reed Show, and Leave It To Beaver sparingly kiss. Kissing, on the boobtube today, is a whole different viewing experience then it was then. So are sexual acts.

    I cannot think of a bigger influence today… in the arenas of sex and displays of affection… than the boobtube.

    P.S. I grew up wanting to be as good a kisser as James West was on Wild, Wild West.

  68. @cybervigilante It was a certified Osho-free interview. Hope to post it before I leave for the SAND conference tomorrow morning. Taking a bit longer than usual to prepare for posting.

  69. My apologies to Igor and everyone who has been waiting for my note. I’ve been very busy… so here we are!

    Let me start by saying that though on some level I feel the moment has passed and much water has flown down the Ganges to meet the ocean, to honour my earlier commitment to write I will address some of your points raised earlier.

    Firstly, I must confess that I do not enjoy intellectual banters! I have never read a single scripture in my entire life. I can only comment on my personal experiences. My work is practical and to the point. I see what is in the energy (layers of the unconscious patterns) and give guidance on what one can do to transform their pain and suffering and experience the inner stillness and light of consciousness for themselves. The Truth is already within each person. All that is needed is to peal away the layers of unconscious beliefs that are preventing one from recognizing their eternal being that is never born and never dies. With this in mind, I will do my best to say a few words about my experience about deep sleep and consciousness, keeping in mind that consciousness is intrinsically built in within everyone and everything in existence.

    Just as there are many levels of wakefulness, there are also many levels within sleep. Osho names 5 and describes each level very eloquently. Every person experiences all these levels at various times and in various degrees but rarely becomes aware of them all. The level of awareness through these levels will greatly depend to how much consciousness the individual has cultivated in their current and previous lives. All the five levels could be recognized if the person is fully awake in their ability to watch and witness everything at all times. Our ability to witness and remain conscious during sleep is proportionate to how much we are able to witness in our wakeful state.

    My experience/awareness of deep sleep is that of space similar to the gap that exists between incoming and outgoing breath. What I mean by “black hole” is a state where you are in the universal belly of existence, much like the mother’s womb, where everything is dark. This darkness, however, is conscious and full of possibilities and potential, like the unborn child, or the new day that you will enter after coming out of sleep. And of course, no one knows what those possibilities are, unless they are lived, experienced and manifested into material reality.

    In the state of deep sleep, the “gap” is also where we enter into an absolute state of transcendence where nothing moves and the ego does not exist. Thus my description of it using the word ‘nirvana.’ In this state of Nirvana there is simply consciousness that is aware that the Universe is a vast unknowable space out of which arise all the possibilities that come to light moment-to-moment, in the here and now. Light is simply one of the manifestations that arises out of darkness. The darkness helps for the light to be seen. In other words, the darkness the black hole helps for the light of consciousness that emerges out of it to be seen.

    The second point: you say, “she put herself above a thousand teachers she has opened herself to criticism.” The statement that out of thousand enlightened souls one become a master comes from Osho. This is a profound statement that only masters can understand! To be a master one must have a deepest understanding of human condition, compassion for human pain and suffering, and a willingness to find ways to existentially elevate suffering caused by unconsciousness. A master is someone who knows that this cannot be done through words and scriptures alone. Though helpful in the beginning, they become a barrier to the seeker experiencing the truth for themselves. A master is someone who knows that talking about Truth can take the seeker only to a certain point, after that they need to experience the Truth for themselves. To help the seeker experience the Truth for themselves and heal into consciousness , the master creates practical tools.

    Another important role of a master is that he/she can see deep into the seekers inner darkness and can shine his/her own light so the seeker can see into their inner darkness and thus transform it into consciousness. A master does the “dirty work” of stepping into the seekers unconscious and helping them face and transform their fear, pain, conditionings, and array of so-called ‘problems.’ By doing so the master knows that during the process of transformation the seeker will many times doubt, question, and even attack the master for disturbing his/her sleep.

    A teacher on the other hand, is someone who imparts knowledge and concepts. He or she cannot see what is happening inside the other person’s unconscious or directly help them identify and transform the causes of their suffering.

    Lastly, have you ever thought that experience of enlightenment can be manifested differently for a woman as it is for a man? Even someone the caliber of Osho humbly stated that he could not fully comment on how a woman would experience the gift of awakening because he was a man (and I must say that he has come the closest to knowing and describing how it is). A woman is not interested in logical representation of Truth. And as far as I know, no woman has ever created scriptures or talks much about them. In other words, she does not impart knowledge but rather works from a place of inner wisdom and compassion that reside in the depth of the heart. She is practical and down to earth. We call women who know the truth wise. Similarly, the men who are called wise are those who are able to surrender to the wisdom that abides within the woman’s heart.
    Love and blessings to everyone 🙂
    ~ Mada

  70. “Firstly, I must confess that I do not enjoy intellectual banters! I have never read a single scripture in my entire life. I can only comment on my personal experiences.”

    No finer source (personal experience) to form your observations, Mada. Kudos for acknowledging that.

    The dance of conceptualization can be an intoxicating one. Clean and sober has its distinct advantages.

    “The Truth is already within each person. All that is needed is to peal away the layers of unconscious beliefs that are preventing one from recognizing their eternal being that is never born and never dies ”

    I appreciate your assignment of the primacy of authority to the individual himself/herself, instead of an external authority figure.

    And I also appreciate your observation that the only task that deserves our attention is… unveiling/unlayering that which veils us from what is already there: the Truth.

    Thanks for taking the time to respond here. Something that few interviewees do.

  71. Re: rank, title, hierarchy, level, role, duty, position, talent, skill, special powers, etc.

    This a great topic that is worth exploring deeper. Modern spirituality has the benefit of mixture of a wide variety of experiences, teachings, and traditions. But it also lacks a common structure, language, standards, and also limited regulation or oversight.

    It’s easy to turn this into some sort of black/white issue, ie – anti-guru people vs. guru is necessary people. Or some fall into my guru is better than your guru type positioning. Or some say titles are bad vs. titles are good. etc.

    I acknowledge that there are benefits of having titles, rank, hierarchy. From a strictly practical level, it’s a very efficient way of transferring information and organizing people. If everyone was at same levels, nothing would get done, or if it did, it would take 3 times longer, and results would most likely be worse.

    There’s also a lot of harm and abuse that can come from hierarchy. There are many well known stories of teachers, gurus, priests, etc. who have abused their positions of power or influence. But peers and students can equally be just as harmful. Defending someone blindly, putting too much power and faith into a projection of their teacher or guru, too much emphasis on their own rank and progress over humility.

    A lot of the harm and abuse comes from PRIDE. Taking credit for what is only allowed by divine grace. Or giving credit to a teacher or guru, it may seem a benefit from some form of transmission, but everything is allowed only under grace. Or some people are born with blessings of unique talents, awakening experiences when young, or just unusual gifts. That talent was given, by divine grace, identifying, taking credit for, and putting yourself above others due to that, is very prideful.

    Instead of pride, if grace has blessed someone with awakenings, realizations, talents, special powers, mastery, etc. The focus would be better placed on personal DUTY; to best use those gifts from divine grace, that would be a sign of gratitude, appreciation and humility.

    There’s too much focus on blaming positions or others, projecting responsibility onto the external world. There needs to be equal focus on personal responsibility and inner motivations.

    ……… Just some food for thought… 😉

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