Shri Shivrudra Balayogi Interview

Summary

Shri Shivarudra Balayogi describes his spiritual search, meeting his Guru, and decades of dedicated service and meditation. The discussion examines divine guidance, the role of a genuine Guru, personal effort, and how seekers can distinguish spiritual realization from displays of power.

Questions This Interview Explores

• Is a spiritual teacher or Guru necessary for self-realization?
• How can I recognize a genuine spiritual Guru?
• Why do unusual dreams, inner voices, or synchronicities appear during spiritual seeking?
• How should I regain trust in spiritual teachers after being disillusioned?
• What personal qualities are needed to make real spiritual progress?

Key takeaways

• A self-realized Guru can guide seekers through difficult choices and keep them aligned with liberation.
• Sincere self-effort, discipline, courage, and perseverance are essential on the spiritual path.
• A genuine Guru points seekers toward self-realization rather than miracles or worldly rewards.
• Divine guidance may appear through dreams, inner voices, or seemingly meaningful encounters.
• A seeker’s sincerity helps attract the right guidance and prevents compromise with lesser aims.
• Spiritual understanding is best confirmed through direct experience, not merely intellectual study.

Transcript

Rick: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer. Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of interviews with spiritually awakening people—or awakened people, in this case. I’ve done nearly four hundred of them now, and if this is new to you and you’d like to see the others, go to batgap.com and look under the Past Interviews menu, where you’ll find all the previous ones organized in several different ways.

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I’m very honored today to have as my guest His Holiness Shri Shivarudra Balayogi, affectionately known as Baba Maharaj. Baba is a self-realized yogi, one who has completed the path of yoga and attained union with supreme consciousness. A direct disciple of Shri Shivabalayogi Maharaj, he entered his Guru Baba: I went to that temple. A priest was narrating the story of Lord Krishna, the Bhagavata, and I listened to it for one hour. At the end of the story, an old man came and asked me, “Why are you here listening to God? Have you fought with your parents?” In society, there was a notion that you go towards God only after retirement, at the age of 60 and above—not before that. Before then, you should be enjoying the world. I said, “I haven’t done anything, but I’m looking for Shivabalayogi.” He said, “Shivabalayogi is my Guru.

He has an ashram in Bangalore.” Bangalore is about a three-hour journey by road from Mysore. The place where I was born, Kolar town, is in the southern part of Karnataka and is also about 90 kilometers from Bangalore, but I had never heard the name Shivabalayogi. The saying is that the right moment has to come for you to know your Guru. He took me home and gave me my Guru’s small biography. By looking at the beautiful photographs of my Guru during his tapas, I had already fallen in love with him. After three days, I went to return the book to that gentleman. He said, “Swamiji”—my Guru was affectionately known as Swamiji—“is coming to Mysore City for a public program. You come and meet him.” I was quite thrilled. I thought, “What a lucky person I am. I have just come to know about Swamiji, and he is coming physically to this town.” On the third day, I went with him and met Swamiji.

At the foothills of Chamundi in Mysore, the presiding deity is the goddess Parvati Chamundeshwari. Swamiji was coming to those foothills at the invitation of a monk who was living there. When Swamiji came and got out of the car, I was instantly drawn to him. It was like love at first sight. I became dumbfounded. Something inside told me, “This is the person you have been waiting for.” For about one or two hours, he sat inside while people washed his feet. Everybody came to have his darshan, touch his feet, and take his blessings. I thought that if I touched his feet, I would be sent out. I just wanted to watch him, so I came next to him and stood there, looking at him the whole time. My eyes were so drawn to him. It was a totally inexplicable experience. The person who had accompanied me was looking for me.

“Where have you gone?” Finally, when he came into the queue, he told me, “Come and touch his feet. Come and take his blessings.” I signaled to him, “Please go. I will come later. I just want to watch him, that’s all.” Finally, when my Guru got up, I touched his feet, and Swamiji went away. I came home and spoke to my mother for about two or three hours. I was arguing and trying to convince her. She was trying to determine whether I was really committed or just momentarily excited. She wanted to see whether I was determined. Finally, she said, “Stay with me for another three years. By then, you will finish your education also. Even after three years, if your mind is unwavering and totally concentrated on going to your Guru, then I will bless you and send you there.” For the next three years, I stayed with her.

Whenever she permitted me, once every six months, I used to go to the Bangalore ashram. They used to organize functions on the day of my Guru’s birthday and on the day he completed his tapas, once a year like that. During those functions, after the homa ceremony, he would start giving darshan. He would sit on a tiger skin on an elevated dais, and devotees would be allowed to enter the room and then come out in a queue. I had become so madly drawn to him just to watch him. I never spoke to him about anything. There was nothing to ask. I would join the queue, come inside, touch his feet while watching him the whole time, and then come out. I would join the queue again and come back inside the room. It would go on and on like that for four or five hours. That is how strongly I was drawn to him. Finally, in 1974, my mother permitted me.

She made me promise, “Once you go, I don’t want you to come back. You must achieve on this path. If you come back, I won’t be able to show my face to our relatives. So you must achieve. Go.” I took her leave and received her blessings. My Guru sent me to the Dehradun ashram, so I am based there. It has now been 43 years, and that is how I finally joined my Guru.

Rick: Beautiful story. Thinking back now, from your current perspective, who or what do you think that voice was that whispered your Guru’s name in your ear before you had even met him or heard of him? Baba: That’s really a mystery. Some divine voice, because I didn’t get to see any personality. There was nobody there. But all I remember was the name Shivabalayogi. This was very clear to me. In fact, just one day before I met my Guru physically, Swamiji came in a dream. The dream experience was also very beautiful. It was pitch darkness. I was standing in a queue when somebody came and took me inside the room, telling me, “Swamiji is waiting for you. Why are you in the queue here?” They took me inside through a back door. Swamiji was sitting there on a tiger skin.

He asked me, “What do you want?” I think that, through reading Adi Shankara’s teachings, I had learned about jnana, bhakti, and vairagya. Jnana is knowledge of the ultimate truth, and bhakti is devotion to that truth so that I can achieve it. Vairagya is detachment from the impermanent universe and world. These are the things I asked him for. He blessed me and gave me a mantra: “Om Shivaya Shivabalayogendraya Parabrahmanaya.” He said, “If you chant this mantra, you will come to me very soon.” When I woke up, I was already chanting it. Another thing also happened in the dream.

Excuse me. Was that the dream in which you received the mantra? Baba: Yes, yes, I received this mantra in the dream. After giving me the mantra, he gave me a stick and told me, “You will get everything from this.” I said, “In the dream, I want only Swamiji.” Then he took the stick back. “If you want God, this stick is of no use. This can give you only worldly things.” He broke it and threw it away. Then the dream ended. I woke up early in the morning reciting that mantra: “Om Shivaya Shivabalayogendraya Parabrahmanaya.” That was how some divine experience happened, and it is really inexplicable. To this day, I can only say that it was divine grace.

I always find it fascinating how the Divine can work in that way. Carl Jung used to talk of synchronicities and how all these little signs and things would show up in the environment that we are synchronous with—some of them taking place in relation to something you were thinking, and so on. It fascinates me how the Divine actually functions to give people hints, say things to them, and give them dreams. I always wonder about the mechanics of that. Baba: Yes, definitely. Certain things are very inexplicable. They happen. They happened to me. Though I myself have always tried to understand spirituality in a scientific way, exactly as it is, I wanted to go to the ultimate truth. That was one reason I didn’t want to become a big scholar. I was introduced to Adi Shankara, Ramana Maharshi, and Ramakrishna Paramahamsa—the three saints—and read a little bit about their teachings.

But I thought, “I must experience the truth for myself, so that I don’t get into a particular kind of imagination about the truth. Let me see what it is.” Still, certain things have happened, and it is so difficult to answer how they happened, in what way, or when I resolved to have such an experience. Probably, through my previous lives, I was doing sadhana, which brought me into contact with my Guru in this life, along with these divine experiences. That is all I could say.

But I thought, “I must experience the truth for myself, so that I don’t get into a particular kind of imagination about the truth. Let me see what it is.” Still, certain things have happened, and it is so difficult to answer how they happened, in what way, or when I resolved to have such an experience. Probably, through my previous lives, I was doing sadhana, which brought me into contact with my Guru in this life, along with these divine experiences. That is all I could say.

I’m reminded of Krishna in the Gita saying that the mechanics of karma are unfathomable to the human intellect. Baba: Yes, very true.

Why a Self-Realized Guru Still Matters

These days, there is a tendency among many spiritual people to say things like, “The age of the Guru is over. You can be your own Guru.” Thich Nhat Hanh, the Vietnamese Zen Buddhist monk, said that the next Buddha may be the Sangha—the gathering of people. In part, this attitude has arisen because many Gurus who have come from the East, and even some who have emerged in the West, have misbehaved in various ways. It has given the whole field a bad name. What would you say to people who have that kind of attitude, who feel that the age of the Guru is over and that you don’t need a Guru? Is a Guru an absolute necessity for spiritual realization, or can it be that some people actually don’t need one?

Baba: I would definitely recommend a Guru-disciple relationship, and that is what I myself dreamed of from childhood: that the Guru should be one who had liberated himself and who could lead me towards liberation. I have always said that when you get such a self-realized Guru who comes in human form, it is like a bonus for you. Guidance might also come from within, through divine grace, but to have a human Guru who is a self-realized soul is one of the rarest things to happen. If you are really lucky, if you are really blessed to have one, that is a great gift. When I met my own Guru, I felt that I had the chance to serve him very closely for 20 years. I saw closely how a jivanmukta, a self-realized Guru, would be. When I read about Adi Shankara, Ramana Maharshi, and Ramakrishna, I started dreaming, “I must meet a Guru of that caliber.

That is the right thing.” I think I was lucky, destined, or blessed by divine grace to have that happen to me. I would definitely recommend that, if one is lucky, one should dream of or pray to God for such a Guru. My Guru himself answered this question by saying that having such a Guru means you keep walking on the path. You may think that you know the path, but suddenly you come to a circle from which several roads bifurcate. That is the time you need a Guru to guide you towards the right path. A true Guru, a self-realized Guru, would insist again and again on what you have to do. Many times, people come and question me repeatedly. They imagine that things should happen like instant coffee, that a miracle should happen and somebody should come. I think I said that miracles might happen, as they did in my own case, but self-effort is also very necessary.

My Guru used to say, “The Divine came and made me sit for tapas, but after that, for 12 years, it was my effort, my determination, and my courage.” My Guru used to say, “The Divine Shiva came and made me sit for tapas, but afterward he ground me into chutney and cut me into pieces by testing me.” Eligibility is always tested. At that time, you need a Guru to guide you onto the right path, keep inspiring you, and keep you going. “If I have achieved, you can also do it.” In that way, I would definitely recommend a Guru-disciple relationship.

Of course, you grew up in India, and at least the more traditional Indian understanding is very clear about the value of a Guru. I guess these days, a lot of Indians are trying to reject that and look to the West. In any case, in your family and your upbringing, it was a strong sentiment. However, in the West, we really don’t have that upbringing so much. What has been your experience with regard to the contrast between India and the culture there in terms of appreciating a Guru, or the need for one, and the West in that respect? Baba: So far, the people that I have come across, I would tell you, are 50:50. In fact, there are many people who have appreciated this Guru-disciple relationship. I have been coming to America for 12 or 13 years now and have been traveling to several cities.

The people I have met have been able to appreciate this Guru-disciple relationship, and it was an American devotee, Charlie Hopkins, who dreamt of bringing me to America. He was my Guru’s devotee. In fact, he introduced Charles Seward Agastya to me. They were all very good friends in the old days. He himself recommended that I must write a commentary on the Guru Gita. The Guru Gita is a wonderful scripture that comes in the Skanda Purana, a collection of legendary stories. It is a conversation between Goddess Parvati and Lord Shiva. Lord Shiva explains the qualities of a Guru—a real, self-realized Guru—and what the qualities of a disciple should be. All these things have been explained. So I have written a commentary on that, too.

When I wrote it, there were some who wrote negative comments because, in the foreword, the first sentence I wrote was that the first time I heard about a Guru and a Guru’s qualities was from my mother as a child. She said, “Even if God gets annoyed, a Guru can protect you, but if the Guru gets annoyed, no God can protect you.” That was the cultural background in which we were brought up. But one person was very wary, and he commented, “Where does this Guru come in? God has to be the Almighty and supreme.” Then I tried to explain to him that in our culture, the Guru’s place has been given very, very great importance. Kabir Das sang: Guru Gobind dou khade, kaake lagoon pay balihari; guru aapne, Gobind diyo batay. This means that if suddenly the Guru and God both come and stand in front of me, the mind is confused for a while: To whom should I prostrate first?

But then the mind comes out of the confusion and decides, “Oh, my Guru, let me prostrate to you first, because it is you who told me about God. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have known about God.” This is the culture I explained to him. Then he was happy, and he accepted it. When I have explained this to the small groups that practice meditation in America and Europe, they have also accepted this fact of the Guru-disciple relationship. So I think if we explain to them the culture and the need for this—why the Guru is considered such an important factor—then they will definitely be able to understand and appreciate it.

Sincerity as Protection from False Gurus

I alluded briefly a minute ago to some people becoming disillusioned with Gurus because many Gurus who have come to the West have been caught misbehaving in various ways. What would you say to people who may have had some experience with a Guru but became disillusioned for that reason? What would you say to inspire them or restore their faith in the possibility of being with, or finding, a genuine Guru? Baba: One thing I have told every seeker is that your own sincerity is very important. Then you would not compromise for any other teachings, and you would not expect anything else from the Guru. If you want self-realization and spiritual truths, all these things are important, and you will not accept it if a Guru is trying to perform some miracle, like bringing out a chain or a ring. These are not the important things.

God is not coming just to give you a ring, and a few hundred dollars can make you fly in the air at 38,000 feet. You don’t need tapas or God for these things. God, or the self-realized Guru, comes to give you the highest things of self-realization. So you will also find the right Guru when you are sincere. That is very important: What you need and what you are looking for. When I was a child, after I started yearning for God and read about Adi Shankara and all these things, I also came across so many Gurus in India who were doing miracles or who would do these types of things. But those things never attracted me. I couldn’t accept them as Gurus. Finally, when I met Shivabalayogi, who had done 12 years of tapas and who gave the message upon the completion of his tapas that humanity had forgotten itself and must do sadhana to know itself, I was attracted to Shivabalayogi.

I understood that this was the right Guru. He would not compromise, and I also would not compromise for anything else. So if we go like this, we will definitely be able to find the right type of Guru. We should not expect easy methods, either. Then we will definitely find the right Guru.

Yes, I can think of a number of stories of seekers who had a very strong desire and very ardent faith. It almost didn’t matter what Guru they found; it was their faith and their desire that carried them through. For instance, there’s that story in the Mahabharata about Drona, Arjuna’s archery teacher, and Ekalavya. Drona sent him away, and Ekalavya just made a little statue and worshiped it. He became the best archer because of his ardent focus. Then you told the story in one of your books about that boy who was a buffalo herder. Baba: Yes, Kanakdasa. That is the story of Kanakdasa, who was a great bhakti poet and self-realized soul who lived about 500 years ago in Karnataka, during the time of the Vijayanagara Empire. As a child, he had once gone out to look after the buffaloes. He saw some priests worshiping God, and he became attracted to the chanting of the mantra.

He went to them and requested, “Please teach me how to do this worship of God. I also want to do it. I feel very fascinated by your chanting and everything.” The priests made fun of him. They said, “You are only a boy looking after buffaloes. What can you learn about these things? Do one thing: Go and sit under the tree and start repeating, ‘Buffalo, buffalo, buffalo.’ You will get it.” But that boy was so innocent, and his heart was so pure, that he took the priests’ words as the command of a Guru. He immediately went and sat under the tree and started repeating, “Buffalo, buffalo, buffalo.” The story says that he had a vision of Lord Yama coming on a buffalo and initiating him into the mantra of Lord Kesava, one of the forms of Krishna. He eventually became a self-realized soul. He was guided to go to another Guru, Vyasatirtha, who was a self-realized soul of that time.

He went, and Vyasatirtha admitted him to his monastery. There is another small story from Kanakdasa’s life. The Guru wanted to teach the other students a lesson. The other students were from an upper-class community, and they looked down on this boy, thinking, “He is only a buffalo boy. What can he learn?” One day, the Guru gave bananas to all the students and told them, “All of you go and eat this banana where nobody will be watching you. Take care of this, and then come back and report to me.” All the boys thought this was such an easy thing. They went out and came back within an hour. They were supposed to return before sunset, but Kanakdasa had not yet come. The other boys were murmuring, “Today the boy is going to be kicked out of the institution.

Even this small job that the Guru gave to test their intelligence—go and eat the banana where nobody is watching you—he couldn’t do it.” Everybody reported, “Oh, Master, I ate the banana behind the bushes. I ate the banana behind the door. I went to the other side of the mountain and ate it. Nobody was watching me, I can assure you.” The Guru smiled and kept quiet. Finally, Kanakdasa came before sunset in the evening. He brought back the banana and placed it at the feet of the Master, saying, “My Master, I am really sorry. I failed, because I tried to eat this banana where I thought nobody would be watching. I went behind the bushes, behind the door, everywhere in the jungle, but everywhere Lord Keshava was watching me all the time. I couldn’t get out of His sight.” Then the Master explained the lesson: “See, this is knowledge and wisdom.

His consciousness has risen to such a level that he can see only God everywhere. When God is everywhere, how can you eat something where nobody is watching? God always watches you from your heart.” That is the faith, knowledge, and wisdom that arise.

I had a feeling that was going to be the moral of that story. It’s a very nice story. So, a bit more on the Guru-disciple relationship, and then I want to talk more about tapas and the meditation you teach and everything. There was just a nice example from your own time with your Guru, where he sent you to a remote part of the ashram and told you to stay there until he came to get you. Hours went by, and you stayed there. He sent a message saying, “Okay, you can come now,” but you stayed because he had said you were supposed to stay there until he came to get you. Then people would come and say, “He’s getting angry. You really better come.” You wouldn’t move until he finally came to get you, and then he said, “Okay, you passed the test.” Baba: Yes, yes. I remember this. It was way back in 1978. I was visiting his Bangalore ashram. For the office, they had bought a table and chairs.

The prisoners had made them in a prison workshop, and the ashram had bought them and brought them there. In the evening, after darshan was over, my Guru asked me, “Go and sit there, at the new office table and chair, and see if you like it.” I jokingly said, “Swamiji, please give me a sweet to eat, and then I will go and sit down.” Some people had just brought some coconut sweets and offered them to him. He said, “I am telling you to go and sit there, and you are asking for a sweet. Okay, I will give you this sweet. Now take this sweet and go and sit there, but on one condition: Until I come there, you should not get up.” “Okay,” I said, and I went and sat there. Every night after his food, he would come out again and walk around the hall and the outside compound. But that day, deliberately, Swamiji did not come out. He went inside and ate his food.

He had instructed the kitchen boy, “Do not give him any food there at the table. Tell him that if he comes to the kitchen, you will feed him. Tell him it is time for him to go and eat. Swamiji is not going to come out.” They came and told me, but I said, “No, I will have to sit here because Swamiji told me that until he comes here, I should not get up.” Then they all made fun of me and tried to persuade me. They went away, and again Swamiji sent word that he was getting very annoyed. He was shouting and irritated. “Don’t make these dramas and nonsense. You should get up and go eat your food. That’s enough of this.” I said, “No, I’m not going to go.” Somehow, that day, determination came to me. I thought he was going to test me, and I said, “I will not go away.” So I sat there. Everybody slept. It was around midnight. Early in the morning, at about 3:30, he started coming.

When he came near me, I was still sitting there, and he was happy. I made him sit on the chair and performed aarti for him. He said, “You have passed the test. That determination is needed. If this determination is there, you can achieve self-realization.” That day, he told me that.

When he came near me, I was still sitting there, and he was happy. I made him sit on the chair and performed aarti for him. He said, “You have passed the test. That determination is needed. If this determination is there, you can achieve self-realization.” That day, he told me that.

Tapas as Burning Away the Mind’s Habits

So your Guru attained Mahasamadhi in March of 1994, and then, as the story goes, he initiated you into tapas in November of 1994. That’s an interesting thing we should discuss. But first of all, does the word tapas mean “heat”? Baba: No, tapas actually means burning. You cook food to make it properly cooked. In the mind, all the acquired habits are there—all the imaginations and constant thoughts. They prevent the mind from regaining its position as pure consciousness. By constantly watching through meditation, through deeper meditation, you have to burn all those habits of the mind so that the mind becomes purified and regains its form as consciousness. That is where the word tapas has come from. Tapana is like what happens when a goldsmith puts gold into the fire and then brings it into its proper shape. That is what the word tapas means.

Sometimes people translate it as spiritual practice, but the way you use the term, it is a very deep, intense form of spiritual practice that doesn’t even begin until a certain stage that we can discuss in a minute, so you don’t use the term lightly. Now, people were paying attention: I just said that your Guru passed away in March of 1994, but then, in November of 1994, some six months later, he initiated you into tapas. This means that he must have appeared to you in some nonbodily form, so please explain that to us and describe that experience. Baba: Well, after my Guru passed away and attained Samadhi, I had been to his native village, Adivarapupeta, where he had dropped his body. I saw his body sitting there, and then it was put into Samadhi. Afterwards, for a while, I felt a void. I was missing him.

When I saw the physical body, I thought, “This is the physical body we served for 20 years.” I gave him food, gave him oil massages, gave him a bath—everything. So I started missing him for a while. Then, a little depressed, I went to Mysore and went onto the Chamundi Hills. On the Chamundi Hills, there is a cave. My Guru used to take us there sometimes and sit peacefully for a while. He used to say this cave was occupied by the sage Markandeya in ancient times and that he had done tapas there. So I went to that place and sat in the cave. I think I was in meditation for about two or three days.

Nonstop, two or three days? Baba: Yes. Probably on the third day, I had a vision of my Guru. He appeared in human form and told me, “Now a time has come when you have to go into tapas. You served selflessly without expecting anything for twenty years, so the seven years’ fruits of tapas have come to your mind. If you just do another five years of tapas, you will be able to achieve Nirvikalpa Samadhi.” At that time, I answered, “I don’t intend to do tapas now. I would like to sing bhajans and serve you. That’s all I feel like doing.” But Swamiji said, “I will create circumstances in such a way that you will be forced to come. This time has come now.” Then he disappeared. I came back to Dehradun, and for two or three months I was simply there. On the tenth day of November, I think, we were doing arati, and his photo was on the dais. I saw him coming out of the photo.

Then I felt that he was holding my hand, and he took me to the room next to the hall. He made me sit on the cot, touched me between the eyebrows, and simply asked me to watch between the eyebrows. “You don’t have to repeat anything. Just do not imagine anything.” What I heard was, “From this room, you have to come out as a yogi, or your dead body must come out. You must not abandon it.” That was the toughness he always showed while teaching. This much I heard, and then he probably disappeared. That sent me into a deep meditation. That was how I sat for tapas and continued it.

When you had these visions of him monthly for years, was it like a concrete form, just as concrete as another human being, or was it more ghostly, diaphanous, or subtle? You could see through it or something like that? Baba: It was as solid as you are seeing me now, in human, physical form. He used to appear and then simply disappear after talking to me. During the tapas period, I had lost the idea of time and of the days that were passing, but he used to tell me, “I am the Divine Guru, and this is a full-moon day. I have manifested, so this is what has to happen now.” That was how I used to come to know that it was a full-moon day—that he had appeared—and then he disappeared. Constantly, he was guiding me. Whatever manifestation happens in front of you, whether it is good or bad, do not react. Just watch. That was what he was guiding me all the time.

Now, in Yogananda’s book, Autobiography of a Yogi , he talks about experiences he had with his Guru after his Guru dropped the body. I’m puzzled about this because sometimes it is said—I think you even say this—that when a liberated being drops the body, it is like a drop of water going into the ocean. It is thereafter indistinguishable from the ocean, and there is no more shred of individuality left. Yet you hear all these stories, like the ones you’re just telling, of your Guru coming to you monthly. Yogananda had similar stories, and there are many others. Some teachers and avatars say that they are going to keep coming back again and again for the sake of their disciples. The Buddhists have the Bodhisattva vow, where the Bodhisattva will come back again and again to help liberate all beings.

How the Divine Manifests as a Departed Guru

So the question boils down to this: Is it possible for a liberated, enlightened being to continue to exist in some form, on some plane of existence, in order to intercede in human affairs? Or do they completely cease to exist, with the Divine Intelligence—which we were talking about before, in relation to your dream, the sound you heard, and everything else—taking a form through its own volition that people will recognize? In your case, you would recognize the form of your Guru. Do you think it’s the latter? Baba: Yes, very true. Once the Guru drops the body, he does not exist in that form somewhere in space or in some dimension. He has become one with the all-pervading Divinity, which is the supreme consciousness of existence. But from that supreme consciousness of existence, when we invoke it, or when we have had a previous resolution, such a manifestation in that form happens.

I would like to explain this a little technically also. The first stage is what I would call the mind’s quality of imagination, its ability to be creative. Say you fall in love with a person, and your mind starts visualizing that form. The more and more your mind visualizes that form, the more solidly that form starts appearing within your mind. This is the quality of imagination. The more concentrated the mind becomes, the more solid the picture becomes. The next stage is that if you start meditating with that resolution, then, after some time—say, when about 50 percent of the mind is gathered—a mental projection happens, as if a Guru has come. That form will be like a spirit form, a little ghost-like, as you were mentioning a while ago. The third and final stage occurs when the mind reaches the tapas stage and becomes 100 percent concentrated.

Before Nirvikalpa Samadhi, it enables the manifestation. Manifestation is the third stage. Manifestation means that it will be as physical as this world is. All three of these stages are ultimately recognized as illusion in spirituality, because the self has to merge with the Supreme Self. That is self-realization. Before that, if a person has a resolution—say, because I had fallen in love with my Guru—I think he had become established in my consciousness so solidly. All the time, I was visualizing him. Throughout the twenty years, also, with total faith, whatever he asked me to do, I went on doing without questioning. Whether he asked me to clean the toilet, work in the kitchen, or look after a mentally challenged boy, I never questioned why I should be doing that, or why I wasn’t simply meditating during those twenty years. So my mind receded and became concentrated all the time.

With total faith, I was serving. That probably enabled the manifestation of my Guru after his passing away from this world, when the time came. He had made me sit for tapas. There was another incident in 1978, when I was in Bangalore. It was my birthday. The previous evening, a small girl had brought me a big chocolate and given it to me as a birthday gift for the next day. Early in the morning, at 3:30, I took it to my Guru’s room. I took milk for him in the morning, and then I told him, “Today is my birthday. Somebody gave this to me as a gift.” Swamiji took the chocolate and bit it in half. He took one half of the piece, and he gave me the other half—the half that he had bitten. “You take this,” he said, and asked me to eat it immediately. So I ate it. After that, I gave him a small piece of vibhuti, the sacred ash, for him to bless.

He asked me, “Why do you need this vibhuti now?” I said, “Swamiji, I want to do tapas. I want you to bless this and give it to me.” Probably to test my faith, he asked me—and made fun of me—“Do you think this ash can make you sit for tapas, idiot?” I said, “I have faith, Swamiji. Please bless it. I can do that.” Then he said, “Look, if I bless this vibhuti and give it to you, you might do tapas, but you may not be able to achieve complete Nirvikalpa Samadhi. You may get some power, and you may get your own following, but you will become egoistic and go away from me.” Then I said, “No, I don’t need tapas in that case, because I want to remain at your feet. I want to serve you. That is my basic idea. I don’t want to go away. In that case, I don’t need this tapas.” So then Swamiji said, “When the time is right, it will automatically come.

Even if you don’t want it, you will be forced to go into it.” That is what he had said. After that, in 1978, sixteen years later, it happened like this. The manifestation happened, and even when I didn’t want to go into tapas, I was made to go into tapas. That is how this experience happened to me. That is how I would like to explain it. This manifestation happened, but the merger is into one single Self. That is the truth that exists. From that, when you invoke the Divine in a particular form, or when you have devotion, the same Divine can manifest and give you darshan in that form. In my case, it was Shivabalayogi.

✨ Consciousness and the resting point of awareness

So when a person becomes liberated or enlightened in this life, while still in the body, there is that phrase or word in Vedanta, lesha-avidya , meaning some faint remains of ignorance, which supposedly makes it possible for enlightenment to be a living reality. Without that, you wouldn’t be able to distinguish any diversity. You wouldn’t be able to put a spoon in your mouth because you wouldn’t be able to distinguish the spoon from your mouth, as I understand that term. Do you agree with that notion? Are you saying that when the body drops, lesha-avidya drops as well, and there is really nothing left to function in any way, shape, or form? Baba: Yes. When the body is dropped, that is what we recognize as Videha Mukti . After dropping the body, you merge finally. That is everything that happens.

Before that, when the body is alive, it is recognized as Jivanmukti : you are liberated while alive. When people have asked me about my experience, I have told them that a small sattvic ego enables me to live in this body. If that were also given up, this body would be dropped. For me, an attachment to my Guru’s name, Shivabalayogi, is a sattvic ego. A little bit of consciousness is in touch with the brain, and that is how this body remains alive for some time. Then I am able to travel and share my experiences of knowledge and awareness with others. Once that job is done, when I lose all interest even in my Guru’s name, this body will be dropped. Then everything ends. There is nothing else to function.

I’m going to pursue this a little bit more because this question has always fascinated me, and I’m learning new things from you. If the idea is that the soul evolves through millions of lifetimes through higher and higher, more and more complex life forms up the path of evolution, doesn’t it seem wasteful for God to evolve souls through so many births over so much time, only to have them merge into the Absolute and cease to exist? Why wouldn’t they retain some small sattvic ego even after the body drops, once enlightenment is attained, in order to perhaps continue to serve in some subtle form? As I said earlier, sometimes saints say they’re going to come back again and again for the sake of their devotees. That kind of implies that something is retained, and even though they’re already enlightened or liberated, they’re able to take birth again in order to serve.

Baba: If a person, if an enlightened soul, wants to maintain individuality, they can do it, but it is still not necessary. It is the Divine, the all-pervading Divinity, which is working. For example, my Guru, Shivabalayogi, need not maintain his individuality for the sake of his devotees. He has become one with the Divine. Now it is up to the devotees. If they have that faith in the name of their Guru, the same Divine can always manifest in the form of Shivabalayogi to anybody, because there is no difference between Shivabalayogi and the Divinity now. That is how things will happen. As long as I, as a devotee of my Guru, maintain that devotion and faith, the same Divine can manifest to me as Shivabalayogi at any time, so there is no need for that individuality to be maintained. That will automatically happen from the Divine if the devotee wants it.

It is not that the self-realized soul wants it. He won’t have any such visions or desires left anymore. It is the Divine which will take care of this universe and teach the souls who are there. It is all happening from the Divine, because once you become self-realized, individuality has been lost, even while alive in the body. As I am doing, there is no such thing as, “I have a mission,” or “I am sharing the knowledge.” That idea doesn’t come at all. It automatically happens. It is called the automatic Divine activity. Ramana Maharshi refers to this thing. That is how it will happen, so one need not keep that individual ego when the body gets dropped.

Maybe that’s what happened with Jesus also when he appeared to his disciples some days after his crucifixion. Maybe it was just the Divine assuming a form that they could relate to. Yogi: Exactly, because the disciples had that faith in their Guru, so the Divine appeared in that form as Jesus.

Yeah, it’s interesting. I’ve spoken to a number of people to whom Ramana Maharshi appeared long before they had ever heard of him. There was one woman I interviewed a couple of weeks ago who, when she was just a teenage girl, had this adamant determination that she needed to know the truth. She sat on her bed and stared at a door for hours and said, “This is Pamela Wilson, and I want truth to come through that door.” She had this determination, and then she finally went to bed. She woke up a little while later, and this Indian man was sitting on her bed. She threw a pillow at him. (Laughter) Baba: Wonderful. (Laughter)

She didn’t know who he was. Later on, maybe years later, she saw a book in a bookstore with his picture, and that was the man she had seen. It just fascinates me that the Divine works in this very intelligent way. Any thought of the Absolute being flat, colorless, unintelligent, sort of nothingness, is blown away by these kinds of stories. It’s just this profound intelligence that’s running the show, it seems. Baba: Yes, because it is the Divine which is the source of intelligence. The Divine is beyond all this. The Divine is not bound by any particular rules or laws of nature. The Divine can work out things in any way it wants.

And I would presume that you would use the term “Divine” synonymously with God, right? Baba: Yes.

Okay, beautiful. Incidentally, people listening, we have about 160 or so people listening to the livestream. If you want to send in a question, go to batgap.com, go to the Upcoming Interviews page, which is under Future Interviews or something, and then go to the bottom of that page. There’s a form you can fill out to send in a question. Some people have already sent some in, which I’ll be asking in a while. So let’s talk about your tapas. You were initiated into tapas in November 1994, and you began to practice it. You practiced an average of 20 hours a day for five years. As you said, your Master told you, “Either you should come out a yogi or your dead body should come out. Put in effort until the last breath of life.” I’d like to know a little bit about your experience during that time.

Tapas, Meditation, and Single-Pointed Concentration

You mentioned in your book that sometimes it became very painful and uncomfortable, and your head would be on fire and there would be all this discomfort, but you just plowed on through. Give us a sense of what those five years were like, doing that much intense tapas. Baba: First, I would like to give the idea of what tapas and meditation are. My Guru gave these criteria: When you close your eyes and are able to keep the mind quiet and totally focused in single-pointedness for at least one hour, that is real meditation, he said. Until then, you are trying to meditate. When you are able to keep the mind quiet for at least eight to ten hours in a stretch, in one single sitting, then tapas begins. After that, your determination and your ability to forbear—that patience—is also very important. These are all put to the test. There were two different circumstances.

When my Guru sat for tapas, physically there were no better or comfortable situations, and no such facilities were available. He was sitting in the mud. Only after some time did devotees build a temple, and then he sat there. Whereas when I sat inside that room, there was an attached bathroom. After sitting for eighteen to twenty hours, I could get up and pour some water on myself to have a bath, then come and sit again. There were a few people serving me and looking after me. Once in 24 hours they used to come and bring some form of food, some liquid food. Amba Shivranjani was one such person who served me very dedicatedly, like a mother, in those days. She used to come from Delhi, and after two years of my sitting for tapas, she permanently came and settled into the ashram, giving up her home completely. She was looking after me very devotedly.

She gave me vegetable soup or some rice and dal in liquid form, so that type of thing suited me more than milk. I used to have all these things. However, eligibility and patience are always tested. Enormous bodily pains do happen, and sometimes there is a burning sensation. Once I fell and hit my head against the wall, so a lump appeared on my head. Amba was watching me and asked, “Babaji, what has happened to your head?” Only then did I notice it. These types of things also happen. But enormous detachment, vairagya , and a firm conviction that this world is impermanent and this body is going to die—that this is one opportunity, and before this body dies we can know ourselves and become aware of ourselves as that immortal soul—that dedicated priority in the mind will always see us through.

The manifestation of the Guru also always encouraged me to have forbearance and keep going, keep going. All these things were happening. Whenever such visions were coming, other types of visions were also coming. Sometimes they could be temptations, and sometimes threatening types of things. My Guru had always advised me, “Do not react to them.” The ability to keep the consciousness totally quiet—quietness and silence—needs to be achieved. Just watch whatever happens. Nothing will happen to you. They might try to come and wring your neck, but they won’t do it. You should not react, that’s all. If you react, your tapas will fall; you will go back. This was the basic thing that he taught. The mind will run away again. It is the reverse journey: The mind becomes quieter and quieter and concentrates. Slowly, you lose consciousness of the surroundings and, one day, of the body also.

But your own consciousness of existence is always there; that is maintained. You do not disappear, and you do not become unconscious. That is the most important thing. Gradually, attention shifts to your own Self instead of its imaginations.

Yeah, in your book you mentioned that in samadhi you do not vanish; your existence is always there, just like you just said. Only the thought of “I,” “my,” and “me,” or God, vanishes. Baba: Yes. The last thought that vanishes is the thought of “I,” that individuality. Before that, it can be very awful, because that “I” does not want to disappear. It wants to maintain its egoistic existence and keep you in this world. But if you remain totally determined and ready to die—whatever happens, no problem—but this “I” must go. I want that truth of existence. Only then does that “I” also vanish. The doership, everything, vanishes. Then only the Self exists. It is effortlessly there, but the idea that “this is the Self” will also not be there. Simply, you exist, that is all. That is supremely peaceful and totally contented.

Did you sleep at all during this period, when you took— Baba: Sometimes, yes. In those four or five hours, I used to come out after having some food. For about an hour, I used to rest quietly. I used to lie down so that the food could be digested, and then I used to get up and go back to meditation. I don’t remember totally sleeping. It was relaxing. I used to lie down.

Did the habit become established for pure awareness to be maintained during sleep, if you were sleeping at all? And these days, this is a little bit tangential, but do you consider witnessing sleep, or maintaining pure awareness during sleep, to be an important criterion of awakening, or not so much? Baba: It is. Even a dream could occur, even now, because the dream gets produced by the brain. But that is simply watched as a witness, without feeling any involvement in that dream. It doesn’t appear that “I” am there. A picture appears, a vague picture appears, and then it’s over. You are simply watching as a witness.

When you were doing tapas in that room, were you just sitting on a cot? Were you sitting without back support, or were you leaning against something? I know that’s a superficial question; I’m just trying to picture your situation. Baba: In those days, I sat without any back support. I was sitting on a cot.

Interesting. I couldn’t picture myself doing that. I’ve done some long meditation sessions, but usually it’s an hour, then a break, and I do some asanas, and then another hour. I’ve never sat for six or seven or eight hours or anything like that. I’m wondering if, among your students, anyone has been able to do anything even closely resembling what you did, even for a day or two, or are they all just able to go a couple of hours before having to take a break? Baba: A few of them have said that they are able to sit for six hours. Five to six hours, they have been practicing.

Because it seems like if people try to emulate what you did, everyone’s going to be discouraged, because nobody could measure up to that kind of routine. Baba: Yeah, it would be very difficult. It requires a bit of practice. Even during those years of my service to Swamiji, he used to come to the Dehradun ashram for two to three months a year, and the rest of the year I used to be there. After attending to the morning chores of the ashram, taking care of cleaning, and doing some puja, I would prepare a couple of chapatis and then retire. In the backyard, there were a lot of bushes and mango trees. I used to go and sit under a tree and practice six to seven hours of meditation. After that, I would come out, feel hungry, eat those couple of chapatis, and then come back to the ashram. So, for a long time, I practiced these things.

Before coming to the Dehradun ashram, I had also spent four years on Chamundi Hill. There is another cave called Nagar Teertha, which the priest of the temple had shown me. I used to go there. Many times, I would tell my mother I was going to classes, but I would go up the hill and quietly meditate there for the whole day, seven or eight hours, and then come down. I practiced like this sometimes, so a long period of practice is definitely necessary.

There’s a saying these days. So many people sit at their jobs or in front of their computers, and they don’t get much physical activity. The saying is that sitting is the new smoking. What they mean by that is that just sitting a lot without exercise can be really bad for your body, the way smoking is bad. I’m wondering why yogis like yourself manage to stay so healthy with so much sitting and without much physical activity. Baba: I agree that if you sit for a long time without proper exercise, the body parts can be affected. So, I’ve been practicing yoga exercises. Even during those five years, when I came out for four or five hours, after some food and some rest, or sometimes before taking food, I used to do some exercise. A couple of people who were looking after me also used to massage my legs and hands very much. That was how I could take care of my body.

My own Guru’s body could not be properly looked after during his tapas. When he sat, his legs and hands didn’t grow properly, and his hands had become totally joined like this. Even after a lot of massage, after twelve years of tapas, they came out, but his fingers totally remained joined. He could never straighten them. So, that type of deformity or problem can occur if the body is not properly taken care of.

Okay, good. Now let’s switch and talk about the actual mechanics of the meditation that you practiced and that you teach, Jangama Dhyana. I guess one question is, why don’t you explain the mechanics of it briefly, and then I’ll have some questions for you about it? Baba: In this meditation, you can sit in any comfortable posture. I ask people to keep the back and neck straight. Keeping the eyes closed, you have to concentrate your mind and sight between the eyebrows and just keep watching there without repeating any mantra or name. There is no need. We also ask people not to imagine anything, so these two things—watching and not imagining—are very important. Throughout the duration of meditation, do not open your eyes. If you set half an hour, one hour, or two hours, do not open your eyes during that period. That is also important. The mind has two aspects: thinking and watching.

These are different aspects of the mind. If the mind is totally preoccupied with thinking, it cannot watch properly. If it is watching, or observing, and you achieve that watching one hundred percent, then your mind automatically stops thinking. When you close your eyes, hundreds and thousands of thoughts and visions arise. While watching them, the mind has a tendency to analyze: “This is good, this is bad, why not this?” It gets involved. One thought follows another, and the mind is absorbed by analyzing. So, instead of analyzing, you are taught just to watch. Watch between the eyebrows. Do not think about whether those thoughts are good or bad. Do not try to know what they are. Then all the thoughts disappear, and pure consciousness happens. This is the basic technique I try to teach.

As you know, of course, there are many different kinds of meditation: using mantras, aphorisms, breath control, body feeling, lights, visions, attention to different parts of the body, sounds, and so on. This is a question that Clifford actually sent in. Would you say that different types of meditation are better for different people, or would you say that there are qualitative differences between different kinds of meditation, with some being more effective than others? Here’s a question that just came in from a guy named Faisal in Lebanon. He said, “I get a headache and feel anger when I try to do third-eye meditation, yet when I rest my mind in the heart center, I go into deep meditation easily. Why am I experiencing such a difference between the two locations?” Would you say that, for Faisal, maybe it’s better to do that kind of meditation? Baba: Not like that.

If you watch gently and politely between the eyebrows, do not rush. Sometimes we have a tendency to rush and force it. If thousands of thoughts are coming, it can be awful and torturous. At that time, people try to force it. Do not force it. Watch gently and politely. Maybe you are straining unnecessarily. If you simply watch between the eyebrows, even if it is not possible to do so immediately because the eyeballs move in parallel and don’t easily come into one direction, it takes some time. Steadily watch. Skillfully keep watching the front portion, and slowly it will come. Then it will not be straining at all. You should not rush. All methods are equally respectable. There are two things. In this method, which was practiced in ancient India also, the technique was obtained by my Guru from the Divine manifestation. That’s why we would like to teach it.

It is like being directly recruited as an officer. In this method, you are allowing the mind to become quiet on its own, without any external anchor. If you go on watching, the mind becomes quiet, quiet, and one day, when it is one hundred percent concentrated, it will easily turn inward and merge with the Self without getting stuck anywhere else. There are many other methods. They can serve as preliminary exercises for focusing first. You practice concentrating the mind: chanting a mantra, concentrating on the breath, or concentrating on any body part. If you imagine something, the mind can become concentrated, but it is likely to get stuck there also. To make it turn inward, you have to give up that practice and become quiet. That is important. Just as if you have read the life of Ramakrishna Paramahamsa, Mother Kali always appeared.

He performed tapas as a devotee of Kali, visualizing Kali. Then, when Totapuri came and wanted to teach him Nirvikalpa Samadhi, Ramakrishna said, “I am able to withdraw the mind from everything, but Mother Kali is always there.” Then, becoming annoyed, Totapuri is said to have pierced the space between Ramakrishna’s eyebrows with a piece of glass. That was when Ramakrishna went into Nirvikalpa Samadhi. So, the idea behind all these methods is to practice concentration first, and then the mind has to turn inward. But with this method, it can turn inward directly because there is no anchor that you are giving it. You are simply using the eyeballs to bring the mind to concentration. Very soon, you will realize that the mind is trying to watch itself. If it can give up all the thoughts and visions that it is holding through the watching process, then automatically it starts watching itself.

Its attention goes onto itself. Just now, the mind is preoccupied with its imaginations. It is like watching a movie: your mind gets sucked into that consciousness, and everything happening in the movie appears as if it is happening to you. You get involved. Then a yogi comes and wakes you up: “Come on, you are just watching a movie. Nothing is happening to you. You are perfectly all right.” Then your consciousness comes back, and you realize that you were simply watching it and that nothing was happening to you. In the same way, the mind becomes happy, unhappy, fearful, or confused, all because of its own imaginations. When all these imaginations go away, its attention goes to itself. That is how awareness of the Self eventually occurs, and the mind goes into samadhi.

So, in this meditation you teach, your eyes are closed, right? You are actually physically trying, with your eyes closed, to direct your gaze—your eyeballs. If your eyes were open, people would see your eyeballs going up and becoming somewhat cross-eyed, up toward this area. Explain once more why that is useful and why it works. You’re not actually seeing anything because your eyes are closed, so how is it that directing the eyeballs upward and toward the center actually helps draw the mind within? Baba: Even if it is difficult to go upward, that is not necessary. At the same level, bring both eyeballs together. We call it the vanishing point. If you draw a road, you see that the road goes on and then comes to a vanishing point. In the same way, when both eyeballs come together, the vision is lost, and then the mind comes one hundred percent and holds there.

The eyes are the strongest of the sensory organs. They can withdraw and hold the mind very strongly without any external anchor. There is no other imagination, thought, or object to hold onto. The eyes are simply watching, and they are not watching any particular form. You are just watching between the eyebrows, but there is no form or name. Nothing is given. Thus, you are watching, but you are not actually watching anything. That is when the mind comes back, because the mind is made up of consciousness and energy, and both are inseparable. This is the Shiva and Shakti concept that has been described in ancient times. Shiva means your existence in a thoughtless state. Nishchestit is the Sanskrit word used. In Hinduism, when the body dies, it is known as shava , meaning that it will not move anymore; it is finished. But Shiva appears to be inert, though it is not inert.

It is supreme consciousness. That is the concept. When the mind gathers, its attention turns inward. Just now, its attention was directed toward its imagination. Consciousness means that wherever you apply your consciousness, you become aware of it. When I am talking, if all of you apply your minds and your consciousness to me, you will become aware of what I am trying to say and convey. In the same way, that consciousness has now become the mind and is preoccupied with its own imagination. When it imagines, its attention is also on the imagination. So, that imagination has to finish. When it finishes, the attention is on itself. The mind watches itself. That is when you will realize that the mind is nothing but consciousness, and consciousness is nothing but you yourself. It is all the same. From the Self, consciousness has sprouted.

From consciousness, the mind has sprouted, and all the imaginations have sprouted. You simply have to take it back to the Self in this way, by quieting the mind.

I am sure you’re aware that in the Gita, chapter 6, verse 13, there is a teaching about fixing the gaze on the tip of the nose. Shankara’s commentary was that if fixing the gaze on the tip of the nose were literally meant, the mind would be left with the nose but without God. I’m not questioning whether your meditation technique draws the awareness within. Obviously, it does. I’m just trying to understand the mechanics, because if your eyes are closed, what difference does it make what direction your eyes are pointing in? They can’t see anything whether they’re pointing this way or this way. They simply don’t see anything if they’re closed. Baba: No, because if the eyeballs are constantly moving, it gives a jerk to the mind and keeps the mind spinning. The mind cannot stop.

This constant moving and wavering of the eyeballs is one of the basic reasons for the mind’s inability to go into samadhi. Even Patanjali has said this. So, the idea is to hold the eyeballs in one-pointedness, if possible, at the center between the eyebrows. Slowly, as you go on simply watching, the eyeballs also steadily stop at one point. There, you don’t have any imagination of what that point is. It is neither the tip of the nose nor the space between the eyebrows. There is no imagination; you simply hold on to that, and then you are watching. When you are watching, you will see slowly all the thoughts disappear, and all the visions disappear one by one. They all go and get evaporated; they are all the acquired habits of the mind. Sometimes I tell people jokingly that the garbage of the mind is being thrown out. You just keep watching; don’t think about what it is.

Then this thing happens: the mind becomes totally silent. When it is silent, its attention turns entirely to itself. That’s when you become aware, and that’s when stability comes to the mind. Eventually, when the mind comes here one hundred percent, it lifts the body consciousness upward also. The body consciousness is generally known as Kundalini. This Kundalini is nothing but another part of the mind. It is also consciousness, because of which you have obtained yourself as body consciousness. When this is also lifted, compared to the Kundalini, the mind is much stronger. A seeker is always advised to control the mind first. Then it automatically lifts the body consciousness on its own. They both become one, and then the mind gets delinked from the brain’s clutches. That is when a seeker can feel as if he is here for a while.

You see, this place has been explained as having a thousand petals, sahasrara kamala. It is only a symbolic expression. There is not actually a thousand-petaled lotus. But if the mind is here, it means it is now totally purified and has blossomed like a lotus and is ready to go into samadhi. That is the idea of this practice. Then you lose your sense of location, and samadhi starts occurring to you automatically. That is the usefulness of this method of meditation.

There is a term that’s in vogue these days called spiritual bypassing. What is meant by that term is that sometimes people can achieve some sort of awakening, and yet a lot of things haven’t been worked out—a lot of kleshas or sanskaras or something—and it ends up causing trouble in their behavior. I gather from what you just said that your teaching is kind of like a master switchboard. If you can enliven or awaken that, it will automatically take care of the other things. For instance, some might say, “Well, you really need to focus on the heart to develop the heart,” and if you’re just focusing here, you might develop this level without developing the heart. So there would be a spiritual bypassing. But I think you’re saying that this will pull all the others along, like pulling one leg of a table and having all the other legs come along.

Baba: Exactly, because this will happen only when the mind is totally purified. All vasanas—all acquired habits, everything—disappear, and then the mind becomes totally purified. So there is no bypassing. It will happen once the mind is purified. Then the body consciousness also gets lifted. Only then will it start merging into the Self. When samadhi comes, that is when self-realization will be total and complete, effortlessly, once and for all. This consciousness, abandoning all its cravings, will go and settle into the Self and remain there, totally contented, giving you self-realization. That is why this has been practiced in the ancient Rigvedic era also. This is one of the highest methods that is recommended. It is totally useful. Even if you want to look at the heart, there is no problem doing so for a while.

But you have to understand that you cannot bring the eyeballs downward like this to look at the heart. You have to close the eyes and imagine as if you are concentrating on the heart. That is when the mind becomes purified and has to go inward. That is what has to happen eventually. Total purification must happen for samadhi to occur. Only then will abnormal behaviors not happen. One would be able to observe, and only then can a person also be a good teacher and present what really happens.

You use the word “imagination” a lot, and you talk about how we need to come out of imagination. Here’s a question that came in from Lalita in Albuquerque, New Mexico. She asks: It is easy to get stuck in the imagination of our personal stories. How do we let go of our attachment to our stories, and how important is it that we do so? Baba: Just by watching them. Do not try to analyze them. Letting go is very important, because you have to realize that simply by imagining, you cannot achieve anything. So you have to let go. The past is not going to come back; it is over. The past is meant for you to learn a lesson so that you don’t repeat it. More than that, you should not allow the mind to go into complete brooding. You can plan for your future, but you need not be anxious. In this way, you can keep the mind in the present.

The present is always a purified state, and it is totally peaceful and enjoyable. In this way, you can overcome all those stories. You must have a firm conviction that they are all imagination; they really do not exist. The past does not exist; it is over. The future also does not exist. Until it comes into the present, there is no evidence of it. Both are simply in your memory and imagination. If you realize this, you will be able to give them up easily and make the mind go inward.

Here’s a question that came in from Cornell in Kingston, Jamaica, which is in the Caribbean. He says: I have only encountered you through a computer screen, and I doubt I will ever be with you in person because of physical distance. Can the guru-devotee relationship truly exist even when the devotee never gets to be with the guru in person? Baba: It is possible. If you develop total faith and cultivate it, then you will be able to feel the Guru within you, and you will see that guidance also comes to you constantly. The grace will descend depending on your faith. That is why faith is important. My Guru always said, “You can lose anything, but do not lose faith.” I also jokingly tell people, “You can become annoyed with me, but do not throw away the photo that you bought.” That is your faith. Do not allow that faith to be disturbed.

In the present-day world, there are so many ways to be in touch. You can write an email to me directly, which I will deal with. If you go to our website, the email address for spiritual questions is there, and you can always write. An app has also been developed called Shri Babaji, in which I have given this technique. There is also a time capsule that you can set for 10 minutes or 20 minutes. In the beginning, I have explained the technique, and after that, the wake-up shloka prayer is also given. In this way, you can always be in touch with me, and you will feel my presence within you. Finally, what is needed is your total faith.

Your determination and the strength that you had to do the kind of tapas you did are extraordinary. You’re a monk, and I’m wondering if you advocate celibacy to your students in order to cultivate greater strength and make the practice more effective, or don’t you comment on that? Baba: It is recommended, though we do not insist upon it. Celibacy is important if you want to devote that much time to what you need to become. If you simply want to practice one or two hours of meditation and then live a stress-free life, that is all right. But if you want to become a self-realized soul, then you will have to go that far. For example, if you want to become a college teacher, you will have to prepare yourself to that extent. But if you want to become the president of the United States, you will have to prepare yourself to that extent—to that much dedication, that much time.

Everything will have to be given. So, finally, it is up to you what you want to become. I wanted self-realization, and that is why I totally dedicated myself to this life. That is why we could achieve it.

I think maybe you might want to not use that president analogy for the next four years or so. It doesn’t quite hold up with reality. Here is an interesting question from Geddes in Bristol, which I believe is in the UK. They say: I’m addicted to seeing different clairvoyants, psychics, mediums, and tarot card readers for guidance in life. Even if they’re supposed to be the best in the world, they often confuse me even more, yet I still go back to them. How can I stop being dependent on their readings, even though I meditate? I still can’t find clear answers on how to make the right decisions in life and not make mistakes. Sometimes I avoid making any big changes in life because I’m afraid of making a mistake that may cause me suffering. Perhaps it’s better to make a mistake rather than take no action and stay in limbo.

So the question is about seeing clairvoyants and mediums and so on, and how to be more self-sufficient in terms of making the right decisions in life. Baba: You see, spirituality teaches you to learn to face the moment. People are always afraid to face the results. If you are ready to face the results as they come, for this my Guru said, “Try to live like a soldier.” When a soldier goes to the battlefield, he knows that either he will do it or he will die. Both are equally acceptable. That is why he is never confused. This life is also like that. You have a desire, you put in the effort, and you try. As the result comes, simply accept it. If it has not happened today, it will happen tomorrow. You try again and again. If you go like this, you don’t need a tarot reader or anything else. You just need your own confidence. That is what is needed.

If you practice meditation, meditation will give you more confidence and belief in yourself—that you can do it. It will also help you to face the moment as it happens, totally peacefully. Then life will be more peaceful instead of your getting confused like this.

Do people sometimes come to you with personal questions, such as, “Should I get married? Should I go to college? Should I get this job?” Do you actually answer such questions, or do you just tell them to meditate and that they’ll know the right thing to do themselves? Baba: We generally advise them to meditate, and the decision will have to be theirs. We can help you arrive at a decision, but never get confused. Ponder over your own mind and what you want to do, and do that. Once you have done so, accept the responsibility, and learn adjustment and management. That will help you to be stabilized in life always. Those who can adjust and manage will always be happy. This is my advice to everybody.

I have a question that actually relates to the one we were just discussing. You mentioned in your book, “In many legends you will read of people or even demons performing tapas in which their minds become concentrated to the maximum. Then God has to come and give them whatever they ask.” So my question is, how does one balance asking God for what you want with surrendering to whatever God wants? You’ve probably never heard of the Rolling Stones, the musical group, and they had a song in which they said, “You can’t always get what you want, but you get what you need.” So, on one hand, you could have this adamant determination to get a certain thing, but it may not be in your best interest. On the other hand, you could be totally passive and not desire anything, just let God give you whatever you need. But then you might be too passive and not taking dynamic action.

So how do you find a balance between surrender to God and determination to achieve something that you desire? Baba: See, one example my Guru used to give: If you ask God, you will end up asking for a small chocolate. If you allow God to give to you, God wants to give you the supermarket itself. So, if you surrender to the Divine, what is needed, what you are looking for, is peace, happiness, and contentment. Ask God to give you these things. That will keep you always happy, not the things that you want, because everything is impermanent in this world. You start imagining your happiness is in a chocolate, or in a property, or in a dollar, but that may not be the thing which will give you happiness. Happiness is when you have contentment, when you have peace within yourself. Ask for these things and practice meditation to achieve these things; then you will have everything.

Sounds like what Jesus said: “Seek ye first the kingdom of heaven, and all else should be added unto thee.” I’m sure you’ve heard that phrase. Baba: Yes.

These days, there are a lot of spiritual teachers around, many of whom I’ve interviewed. I have interviewed 400 people. You say, “Do not be in a hurry to become a Guru yourself,” and I would say, in the case of many people I know in the Zen tradition, after your realization you’re supposed to wait ten years before taking on a teaching function. Yet many of these people seem to be really helpful to others. They don’t necessarily claim to be an ultimate, final teacher or anything like that. But when we go to school, we have a teacher in the second grade who wouldn’t be qualified to teach college courses, but they’re helpful to us in the second grade. So what do you think about all these literally hundreds of people these days, many of them Westerners, who are teaching satsangs and functioning as spiritual teachers? What do you feel about their activity?

Baba: They can be helpful for those people who are in kindergarten, who are learners. To a certain extent, that might definitely be helpful. But if a person wants to become self-realized, the teacher—whatever they have achieved—depending on that, only such a teacher would try to create an awareness. So what people want depends on that. If you are happy with a small amount of learning, well, then these teachers also can be helpful, at least to motivate others. We don’t rule them out completely. I have spoken about what my Guru told us: Become a better disciple first; don’t be in a rush to become a Guru. The important idea through that is that you do not think that you have become 100 percent perfect. So, as long as you don’t have that ego, it’s no problem if you want to teach whatever you know, even if it’s only a little bit.

I would say many of the people I referred to I would define as self-realized, as I understand it, and I think they would, too. But most of them would also say, “I’m still a work in progress.” So I guess a question I could ask you is: Are there stages of self-realization? Could you actually be self-realized and yet still undergo further refinement or development of some sort? And is there a stage at which no further development is possible, when you’ve reached the pinnacle? Baba: Either you are not realized or you have become realized. It is as simple as that for me. Once you are realized, that is done. You have come to know that thing after knowing which you don’t have to know anything else. That is self-realization, once that has happened.

So you became self-realized in 1999, as I understand it, and that’s almost about eighteen years ago now. Do you feel that in these past 18 years there has been any further growth, progress, learning, refinement, or any of that? Or has it really just been sort of a static state that you achieved, and that’s it? Baba: Yes, it is the same as what I was eighteen years ago. What was achieved is the same. There is contentment, total peace, and that awareness. The same continues.

Okay. Well, let me see. I think I’ve pretty much asked most of the questions that came in, or else we just covered them anyway. Are there any sort of final words that you would like to say to people? Perhaps something we neglected to discuss, or some thoughts you would like to leave people with? Baba: We, as humanity, have tremendously advanced through science and technology, but unfortunately have forgotten spirituality. That is why there are still conflicts among human beings, there is dissatisfaction, and there is no peace. We all talk of peace but do not practice peace. So we need to take spirituality along with science and technology, because spirituality teaches the mind to be cultured. Through that, we can utilize the discoveries and inventions that we are making without creating harm to this Earth or to humanity.

We need to be more responsible toward fellow beings and toward other creatures also. Thus, it is important to practice spirituality. That’s what I would advocate. We have respect for all subjects, whether it is science or technology. Everything can be useful if you practice spirituality. That’s what I would like to advise.

Do you feel that if there were enough of an upsurge in spirituality in the world, all these terrible problems of global warming, famine, war, and all these other things would kind of melt away? Do you feel like all those are really symptoms of a lack of proper spiritual development? Baba: Yes, I feel that human beings can become more mature, better, because I have never liked to call anybody bad or wrong. Only some are mature and some are not mature. Through spirituality, humanity can become more mature—to consider each other, to love and honor each other, and to respect the things that we have been given. That’s why I would advocate spirituality.

All right. Well, thank you so much, Babaji. I really appreciate the time we spent together. Bruce said probably we need to take a few breaks, but we didn’t take any breaks. You just kept going. Baba: Yes, you made me very comfortable, and it was very interesting. Your questions were also very interesting, giving me an opportunity to share my experience. Thank you for that, and thank you to BatGap for giving me this opportunity.

Yes, thank you. Baba: We feel much honored.

We’re recording this on May 1, 2017, and you’re in the U.S. now, and you’re going to be touring around. So people who are listening to this now, I’ll have a link to your website on my website, and they can go there and see what your tour schedule is. Maybe they’ll be able to connect with you in some city. If someone’s listening to this a few years from now or something, then go to the website anyway and see what the tour schedule will be. I presume you’ll be doing this for a while. Hopefully, I will, too. Maybe we’ll do another one of these days. Baba: Definitely, certainly.

Maybe we’ll do another one of these days. Baba: Very interesting talking to you.

Likewise. It’s really an honor, and I really enjoyed talking to you. Let me make just a couple of general wrap-up points. I’ve been conducting an interview with Shivarudra Balayogi, as most of you know by now if you’ve been listening to it, and I continue to do these interviews once a week. If you would like to be notified of future ones or check out past ones, go to batgap.com and look at the menus there. There’s also an audio podcast you can sign up for. There’s an “At a Glance” menu; if you go to that, you’ll see everything summarized that is available on the site. I think that’s about it for now. There’s a donate button on the site, which I appreciate people clicking if they can. It helps to make this whole thing possible. So again, thank you very much, sir. It’s really been a pleasure and an honor to speak with you.

Have a wonderful tour in the U.S., and give my love to Clifford and Agastya and everyone else there. Baba: They are all here. They are conveying their love to you.

Good. Baba: Thank you so much. My love and blessings. All the best to BatGap. You have been doing a wonderful job of creating this awareness and helping people to know about spirituality so much. Wonderful. All the best to your efforts. Thank you very much.