Rick: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer and my guest this week is Neelam. Welcome Neelam.
Neelam: Welcome. I’m happy to be here.
Rick: I am too. I’ve been looking forward to this for a long time and I have some very dear old friends who have been students of yours for many years and who, you know, I think have been encouraging both of us to do this. So I’m glad that we finally got around to doing it.
Neelam: Yeah, I’m happy. I’m happy about it too.
Rick: So I don’t always start interviews this way but in your case for some reason I have the feeling to just ask you to summarize for us what you would say your basic teaching is. Would that be okay?
Neelam: Yeah, yeah.
Rick: Okay.
Neelam: Yeah, so you know that’s, I would say that’s, let’s just be quiet for a moment, you know? Let’s just sit quietly for a moment here. So you know, because maybe the most important thing to say and the most important thing to remember is that presence or our nature or who we really are that that is already here. So that no matter where we are, no matter what’s going on, no matter what we are doing, no matter what’s happening, that we can, that we can notice our nature. And you know the reason I always say that in the beginning and the reason I always remind everybody on it is that, you know, so often even when we are on a spiritual path, even when we actually already are, you know, knowing that what is it that we are looking for right? We still possibly live in this either big or small level of postponement right? Like there’s some time that I’m going to get there, there’s some thing that I’m going to, you know, there’s some moment that things are going to change, there’s some place that I’m going to arrive and by doing that we miss what is already present. So I really, you know, always myself, you and everybody, I invite first of all to just check, you know, in this moment right? And see and make sure that you know what we are looking for, what we want. Yeah, that it’s already here, right?
Rick: Would it be true to say, would you agree that even though it’s already here it can be even more profoundly here? In other words, that one’s appreciation of it can become more profound or enriched or deepened or clear or whatever, sort of like, oh what’s an example, I don’t know, you know, like maybe music is already here on some scratchy little radio and you’re hearing Beethoven but if it’s a beautiful stereo system you could hear the very same symphony but much more clearly than with the scratchy radio. So there could be some enhancement or deepening or clarification of one’s experience of presence over time.
Neelam: Well, you know it’s really the reason I start with this, you know, basic, basic, basic. And there’s more to what my basic teaching is, you know, this is just the very beginning of it but the reason I start with it is because, you know, that’s really the foundation right? And we need to remember that because otherwise we can imagine, see this is all imagination, that we are going somewhere and by doing that we really are not going anywhere, you know, we just really postponing, postponing what is already here. But a big part, you know, of our ability to be here is that our attention is not really trained to be here right? That our attention is not used to just really recognizing or resting in our true nature right? And maybe even more so, I would say habitually and that’s the past, that’s you know, what we are used to, that’s what really brings us into this life, that’s what really if not recognized causes and perpetuates suffering, that our past is what takes our attention right? Or the past is what takes our attention right? So first we need to recognize presence is already here. Then we need to recognize that in these moments of resting here that everything is okay the way it is right? That nothing has to change, that nothing has to be different, this is all our imagination again, you know, the imagination of the body-mind of how things are supposed to be and how they are, where they are going and what’s going to happen and all that right? And then we also have to, you know, so we have to recognize that, that presence is already here, okayness is already here right? That suffering is really caused by our movement away from that right? That every time we believe something different than what our nature really is, what the truth of our nature is then we experience suffering right? And then that we can do something about coming back and facing that in a very direct way which is inquiry, which is really an inquiry process. And that eventually we really find freedom and that’s what you’re speaking about which is abidance here no matter what right? Abidance here no matter what arises but initially, you know, our attention is just all over the place, it’s just trained to go with whatever arises here right? It doesn’t really stay here, it doesn’t really rest. So we can’t recognize the fullness, we can’t recognize the absolute fullness of who we are.
Rick: Yeah, because I mean life is very intense for many, many people, most people I would say. I mean we’re very privileged in a sense among all of humanity in terms of how easy our lives are and even we must have our difficulties, but you know, the average person is just … tends to be overwhelmed by distractions and pressures and problems and so on. And now people on a spiritual path, you know, they’re kind of looking for a way out of that and as you say perhaps the first thing to recognize is that what you’re looking for is already here. But initially that recognition can be like just such a delicate little thing that can get blown away by anything. And so what I’m kind of referring to is the possibility of deepening it, strengthening it, stabilizing it so that it’s not so easily blown away.
Neelam: Yeah, and that’s why so much of the work I do these days is around teaching that simple process of inquiry, where people can, you know, where you can find your way back to your nature when challenges are here right? When difficulties arise, because we all know about, you know, we can be in stillness and everything is fine but the moment you go and move in life, you know, nothing is fine and just things arise and everything just happens and then you want to be able to find that and you don’t want to have to separate right? And say, “Well, this is my quiet time, this is my spiritual,” because that’s, you know, unnatural, right? You know, “This is my spiritual and this is my life.” So through the simple process of inquiry, you know, people can, we can actually meet what arises, you see, rather than always run away from it. That’s what Papaji used to talk about, you know, the dream tiger, you know, and you’re still afraid of it, right? You’re still afraid of it, so we can learn to just turn our attention and just say, “Hey, okay, what’s really actually present? Can I be here right? Can I meet that so my attention doesn’t have to go with that?”
Rick: Yeah, so I think what you’re saying is that not only can we learn to bring ourselves back to that if we’ve been thrown off, but that we can actually develop it so profoundly or stably that we’re not thrown off even in the midst of trying circumstances, right?
Neelam: Exactly, exactly. And also, you know, in general, you know, the lives are, everybody’s lives are so busy right now, right? There’s just so much going on and there’s so much influences and there’s so many things and we really need to learn to have a little bit more of that, you know, stability or that pull towards inner stillness. Understanding that, you know, everything arises here that, you know, fulfillment is already present, that we don’t really have to, you know, follow things, that we don’t really have to run after stuff. It doesn’t mean to exclude life but it means to keep coming to that bottom line that, you know, when you are at rest, when you are still, when you are, you know, when your life is in alignment, you know, the fulfillment is already here right?
Rick: What would you say to people who say that that’s easier said than done, like the single mom who’s got three kids and is working very hard to make ends meet and you know, who feels like life is just overwhelming her. Could you offer something even for somebody in that kind of state or does it one have to have kind of more ideal conditions to even begin to consider this?
Neelam: I would say everybody knows presence. You know, Rick, I would say everybody has experiences of presence. Not everybody recognizes them for what they are right? So a single mom with three kids, you know, that’s a lot of work and a lot of, you know, attention that goes into that but I’m sure there are moments in her life too, you know, where presence is, where she’s aware of presence right? So maybe she can’t, you know, stop her life. Maybe she can’t devote hours a day to just being quiet. Maybe she can’t, you know, but she could start with just recognizing that these moments, even if they are just a split of a second, you see, because that’s again it’s only mind, you know, mind classifies. Well that was really long and that was really short, and that’s good, and that’s bad, right? So even if it’s just a split of a second that she can recognize and she can say, “Wow, that’s me. You see, that’s my nature. That’s who I am.”
Rick: And then what can she do to make that deeper, more stable, you know, less easily blown away?
Neelam: Well, what we really…anybody, mother with three children or a saint on the top of the mountain or anything in between, you know, what we really have to recognize, understand and really get is what causes suffering right? Because if we don’t really understand that we are still on the quest to change, you know, to change circumstances, to change people, to change situations, to improve life in a way that is external. But if we understand that movement away from our nature is the cause of suffering then we have a willingness then, because you know, everything starts with right understanding, right? Once you understand, then you can say, “Okay, well, I get it. Is there something I can do about it?” Right? And once we have the understanding then we also have the willingness to say, “Wait a minute.” When things arise, when things are difficult and even though it looks like there’s so much stuff out there and we can or should be or would be successful if we changed all that then we have this moment of coming back and saying, “Wait a minute. Let me just see what is actually present right? What is actually present?” You know, because that’s where suffering is right? What is actually present? Can I be here? It’s not always easy to do that but can I be here? And that change of direction, that really changes the direction because otherwise we are still in the outgoing movement of, “If I get it right then it’s all going to get better.” Right?
Rick: Yeah, on that point of changing the whole world in order to make ourselves happy versus starting at home I think it was Gandhi or the Dalai Lama or somebody who said, “It’s a lot easier to put shoes on your feet than to pave the earth with leather.”
Neelam: Right, right, of course, beautiful. Beautiful. And just that understanding, you know, even in the busyness of life if we have the right understanding we can pay attention. It’s not a “have to” or “should” or “must” it’s just what we could, you know? It’s possible, it’s a possibility.
Rick: Would you advocate some sort of quiet time or meditation or something like that, sitting in silence, as a sort of blocked out part of one’s day, rather than just trying to remember the silence in the midst of all the activity?
Neelam: Well, what I always encourage students, what I always encourage is to develop their own “personal practice,” you know, quote unquote because practice is also a controversial word, you know, we can maybe talk about it at some point, you know, what practice means. It means a lot of things to a lot of people, there’s a lot of misunderstanding, but I always say, “Develop your own personal practice which is, find the time to be quiet.” It’s not, you know, do an hour a day or do this or do that but find a time to be quiet.
Rick: Yeah.
Neelam: Find the time to do it. Find the time to possibly do some simple physical activity, you know, a little yoga, a little stretching, a little walking or something that moves that energy also because sometimes the patterns, you know, the body-mind is so connected, you know and the patterns can be so solidified right? Find some time to do inquiry, you know? So, everybody in their own capacity right? Some people do a lot, some people do less, some people do very little but we all try to do some, some of that.
Rick: Yeah and even the person whose life is hectic they find some time to chill out in front of the TV or, you know, do something like that. So it’s possible it’s just a matter of what you choose to do with that time I guess.
Neelam: Yeah, and I also say to people, “Start with five minutes,” you know? Do five minutes, you know? Don’t do something that is unrealistic, you know? Find something that you can actually do right?
Rick: Yeah so you’ve given us some basic points about your teaching and you said that was just sort of the kernel, the essence of it and there’s more. Perhaps we could elaborate, well, we’ll be elaborating in the course of the interview but let me just refer to a couple of things that I really liked when I listened to about 20 hours worth of your recordings.
Neelam: Oh, Rick, thanks for that.
Rick: It was fun, I do it while cutting the grass and riding my bike and stuff like that. But there were a number of things I really enjoyed and that’s why it was easy to listen to 20 hours worth. For one thing, I really enjoyed the fact that you often tie in the physiology when you talk about this and not all teachers do that. Some of them speak as though we don’t have a body and that what’s happening in the nervous system has no bearing on what’s happening in our more subjective life. But I think that it’s really valuable that you do that. Would you care to comment on that?
Neelam: Yeah, and that comes through experience, through many years of working with people, through my own personal experience and just seeing that there are tools out there right now that maybe we didn’t have before. Maybe before it wasn’t so clear or popular or understandable or easy. And that, as you say, we do have a body right? It’s a body-mind and it has the physiology functions in a certain way. The better, the more we understand that, the less we are in conflict with that, the more we understand that it’s just natural, that that’s just the way it is, that that’s just the way it happens. Because so many people have so much judgment on their own experience or other people’s experience, but their own most of all. And the more they can understand, the more we can understand that it’s just natural, it happens this way. And if they can understand the technical part of it so to speak and they can learn to be with it in a more efficient way, I think information is very powerful. Information is very useful. There’s a lot of good information out there right now. The brain, the nervous system, how it works, the fight or flight, the survival, how much of our experience is guided by that. To really understand that more I think is very crucial. It’s so much easier than to say “Let’s just be here.” Because teachers often say, “Well, just be here.” Whatever that means. And for some people it’s easier because they have some training already in being here. For some people it’s like, “What is that? What the hell is that?” So to understand how can we use the sensations of the body, how can we use the understanding of the nervous system, to really help ourselves to be here. I think anything that helps, anything that helps is just really useful.
Rick: Yeah, I mean in the Indian tradition, the Vedic tradition, they have this concept of vasanas which are said to be physiological impressions that correspond with the various conditionings that keep us bound. And so they very much take that into account and say that physiological change has to happen, it’s not just a thing that’s happening in consciousness alone.
Neelam: Yeah, of course, of course. Because when vasana is present there’s a momentum there, there’s the momentum of the past, of it not having been experienced. And so it brings with itself its own momentum, and that momentum is what takes our attention right? That’s where we get caught in when it arises. So to have a way to know how to address that better, I think it’s very powerful. But there’s also another aspect of that that I’m thinking that initially when we really want to know presence, we really remove things. We have to go in, so we have to let go of impressions, sensations, feelings, thoughts, we just really, really narrow down, we just have to go more and more remove everything or let go of everything, right? But that’s just half of it, right? And then let’s say by doing that we really arrived at the fuller realization or awakening to our true nature right? But that’s only the beginning, right? This is not the end. So then we want to come back to the functionality in this body-mind, you know, and that requires a willingness to be present with everything that arises otherwise it becomes a disembodied experience right? An experience that is just, you know, it’s halfway, you know, it’s not fully integrated back into this relative reality.
Rick: That’s very interesting. It pretty much describes the whole course of my experience over the decades where when I first learned to meditate there was a sort of a just transcending the body and going beyond and not being tuned into it at all. And these days it’s more like a kind of a cat scan when I meditate where there’s this kind of awareness, the attention continues to be brought to different parts of the physiology which I feel are blockages and then those dissolve, you know, and then another one and then that dissolves. It’s more like a kind of an integration on the physical level that seems to be taking place.
Neelam: Yeah, because you know that first we have to let go of everything and then we need to come back to it just in a different way you see? Because the real awakening or the real, you know, realization is not about avoidance right? It’s not about avoidance, it’s about discrimination, you know, so how can we now, from this new perspective, come to everything and really embody life or embrace life but with this discrimination present, with this knowing present right?
Rick: So when you were talking earlier about taking a little time out maybe even five minutes or whatever to just have sort of exclusive focus on an inquiry process, would that inquiry process possibly include a kind of a tuning in to what’s going on in the body as opposed to just a mental procedure?
Neelam: You know, when I encourage people to sit there’s many different things I encourage them to do that for. If you can spend some time in quiet, in real stillness, beautiful right? When we are sitting with what has arisen and it’s taking our attention, I always ask, you know, the inquiry process that I teach, I always say inquiry is not a mental exercise right? It’s not about thinking, it’s really about changing the direction of your looking right? Instead of looking into the outer and the thoughts, feelings, emotions you look into where there is the cause of suffering right? So to get there, though, practically, you know, I always encourage people, and this is the inquiry process is so much based on physical, noticing the sensations of your body of really noticing what’s actually present right? Because there is, you know, there’s so much going on in the mental, it’s absolutely, you know, useless to even try to focus on that right? There’s so much going on in the emotional, that even though that’s already closer to our natural state but it’s potentially volatile, and you know, if we’re not careful it’s going to take us right back into the story, you know, of what’s going on. And then there is the sensation of the body which is just so much more, you know, slower, and it’s so much more accessible that we can use it for our entryway to presence right? Yeah. If we are willing to pay our attention to it really in a pure way, you know.
Rick: So to take a hypothetical example let’s say somebody’s boyfriend or girlfriend just broke up with them and they’re very upset and you know they could sit and do a sort of inquiry process. So they could sit there thinking “Oh, what a jerk he is, or she is,” or whatever, that would be the mental level or they could just be sitting there and feeling all these emotions of loneliness and sadness or they could tune into the physiology and get down to what’s really being felt on that level.
Neelam: Beautiful, beautiful, and they could not … because the tendency or the movement oftentimes is so much into the story right? So when you’re sitting and you’re just really noticing what is present in your body, that’s something you can actually be with you see? You can’t be with the thoughts, you can’t be with that amount of emotion that is still fueled by some kind of story right? But you can be with the sensation in your body and by doing that you actually are coming or bringing yourself back to the present right?
Rick: That’s good. One word that I heard you use a lot which I really appreciated, was “tenderness.” There’s a lot of emphasis on the word “tenderness” and let’s talk about that for a few minutes. Perhaps we can define or maybe I should just let you start by defining in what sense you use that word.
Neelam: You know, tenderness is natural. When we are in our natural state, when we are at rest, when we are not struggling with what is here, where there’s no conflict, tenderness is naturally present right? It’s just what is right? It’s just how we really are. Most of the, you know, it’s, you naturally experience tenderness when you are in a quiet place. You know, if anything was too, if you’re quiet and there’s nothing going on, you probably wouldn’t experience anything. But let’s say something comes into the field of your experience, you would most likely experience tenderness towards that, when you are really, really at rest right? Now in the process of conditioning which is, you know, when I say conditioning I mean an inability to be here, you know. When I say conditioning it’s the habits that we learned to avoid our true nature right? So in the process of conditioning we moved away from tenderness right? We actually invested a lot into harshness, into holding, into being tough, you know. You just, you know, you have to toughen up. You just, you have to move through it you know. There’s a lot of stuff out there, you know, conditioning-wise that just tells us to deny what is actually present right?
Rick: Well I was just going to say it seems that the world tends to coarsen us, you know. It’s a big, gross world in a sense and we get out there, we have to work hard, we have to do this and that, and the tenderness kind of gets covered over with a thick skin of harshness or coarseness, involuntarily almost you know.
Neelam: Yeah, that’s what I mean, conditioning. But there’s a difference between, you know, having a certain sense of boundary when we are existing in the world and having to toughen up the inner you see. Having to toughen up that access to your true nature, you know. That’s oftentimes a survival, you know, mechanism or a strategy that gets developed over time, as we are living in the body-mind, the strategy of, you know, you have to toughen up because it’s just unsafe but that really just cuts down on the natural sense of tenderness too right?
Rick: But the word “strategy” makes it sound volitional like, “Okay, here’s what I’m going to do, I’m going to get tough so that I can protect myself,” but it almost seems that it happens involuntarily. And to take an extreme example, I mean, these soldiers who go over to Iraq and Afghanistan, you know, and they’re bombarded with such a stressful situation then they all come back with PTSD, you know, post-traumatic stress disorder where there’s been an extreme sort of accumulation of stress and coarsening and quite the opposite of tenderness.
Neelam: Well Rick, you know, that’s a little different what I speak, it’s a little different. And it’s really not so much what happens it’s more how we are with what is here, you see. How we are with what is here, you know, because I understand PTSD and I understand harshness and I understand things that happen but, and I agree with you, the voluntarily, involuntarily because it involuntarily the body-mind-nervous system responds in a certain way, but then we solidify in that response, you see. Then we believe that, then we say, “Well, this is how it is” right? And that’s not really the truth right? This is not how it is. It’s just that in certain situations your body-mind, your physiology is going to respond in a certain way naturally, obviously, of course right? However, if that response gets solidified and we believe in it then we start to believe that we have to protect, you see, that on the inner, I’m talking on the inner, I’m not talking being discriminative with everything and everybody in the world. That’s not what I’m saying right? I’m just saying on the inner, you know, are you at rest, you see? Are you at rest or are you suffering? Or are you holding something right? Because if you’re holding something that’s going to cause suffering no matter what it is. PTSD, you know, a challenging experience which I have a lot of experience myself, you know, through my own illness. How are you with that? Are you at rest with that? Can you be here with it or are you suffering right, when it’s happening right? It’s still happening, you know, we can’t avoid that right?
Rick: So do you think that it would be possible for, let’s say, let’s say the army hires Neelam to train the soldiers who are going over to Iraq and Afghanistan to better deal with the stress they’re going to encounter by learning to, kind of just what you just said, to sort of be with it, to not buy into the belief of so and so? Is that possible or is it not fair to take such an extreme example?
Neelam: I don’t know that they would want to go then if I was sitting with them.
Rick: Good point. I don’t know if anybody in the Iraq army actually wants to do that, you know?
Neelam: So if the army hires me that’s probably the end of the army right?
Rick: Good, I hope they hire you.
Neelam: But, you know I want to say something about the tenderness because so much, you know, in our condition, this harshness, right? And even the spiritual practice can become very harsh.
Rick: Yeah.
Neelam: The reason why I say so much tenderness, you know, because even people when they sit with what has arisen, they say, “Okay, are you able to be here? All right, what’s wrong with you? Why can’t you do it?”
Rick: Yeah, it’s like, “Whoa, whoa!”
Neelam: And that’s their inner right? That’s their inner. And I say well, tenderness is natural, you see? So discriminate with it. See that when you are harsh, when you are you know tough with yourself, even if it’s about spiritual practice, then it’s useless, then it’s the past, you see? Then it’s not natural, then it’s not going to help you right? It’s not going to do anything for you. So that’s the level of discrimination I would like for everybody to have, you know, like, “Wow, tenderness!” If it means that going to sleep right now is the most tender thing to do then that’s what’s going to help you the most, you see? It’s not going to help you to sit there and toughen it out right?
Rick: Yeah, so perhaps we could say that you’re warning against straining in the name of naturalness or tenderness. One shouldn’t strain, one should just be natural.
Neelam: Natural, right. And going back to natural, because so much we spend in self-hatred, so much people spend in self-hatred, in little ways and in big ways, you know? So that’s just not productive, right? Not productive. But going back to your example of the army and the PTSD and let’s say hypothetically because I don’t really, you know, it’s so hard to judge anybody’s self-experience or gauge, not judge, but gauge anybody’s self-experience, but hypothetically, if consciousness is really used to resting, if it’s really so much more conditioned to just be in its own natural state, when these difficult, challenging experiences come in, they are most likely going, we are going to be much easier with that, you see? I’m not saying it’s going to be nice, I’m not saying it’s going to be pleasant, I’m just saying there’s a possibility to remain in that tenderness with that, you see, which is huge, which is I think humongous because that means there’s no suffering.
Rick: Yeah, well think of the Bhagavad Gita as an example. I mean Arjuna was saying “I’m going to go get these guys” and Krishna then reminded him of his mother and that brought this wave of tenderness and then he thought, “I can’t fight at all,” and then Krishna kind of got him to the point where he would …
Neelam: You still have to …
Rick: Yeah, you still have to do it, but here, do it well-established in presence then you’ll be okay.
Neelam: Exactly.
Rick: I think a synonym we could use for tenderness though, which has a negative connotation, might be “vulnerability,” you know, that one might think that if one is too tender then one is going to be vulnerable.
Neelam: You know, vulnerability, but I would say again, these are inner places you know? I would say vulnerability to the human condition. Really understanding that there are limits to the body-mind, that there are limits to this experience, that there are certain things that do cause harm, that there are certain things that are going to have consequences you know? And not in the conditioned way, consequences like we were taught by our parents but real, you know, certain things do cause harm. That’s the truth of it right?
Rick: Sure.
Neelam: So if you have a real vulnerability to the human condition, you know, to really understand “Wow, this is really fragile, this situation.” You know this situation is fragile. This is the truth of it right? Can we live in that? Not in some ideal vulnerability that means, you know, I am exposing my feelings to everything and everybody whenever I feel like it. That’s not the kind of vulnerability or tenderness that I’m speaking about right? And actually, you know, when you are tender, when you are in that right relationship with what is here, then you are so much stronger you see? Then you are so much stronger than anything or anybody else because you are real. You can really be with that and that’s like “Phew!” you know, powerful in the universe right? If that happens.
Rick: Somehow when you said that I was reminded of the image which I’ve seen many times of a little tender weed or plant pushing itself right up through the asphalt and coming up through this hard thing.
Neelam: I know, I know and the winds blow and the cars go and everything and it’s still there you know? It’s the true vulnerability right? It’s the true softness.
Rick: Now in your own case you know, you haven’t been secretive about the fact that you’ve had health challenges and you’re sensitive to electronics and things like that. Could that somehow be a phase that you’re going through because of the tenderness that’s made you vulnerable and that you might come somehow eventually toughen up without losing the vulnerability and thereby not have these challenges? Or am I off the mark on that?
Neelam: I wouldn’t say that. And you know it’s very hard to put the illness in the context, because there are some real physiological components here that really, you know, they will have to get into a lengthy, lengthy conversation. But you know, in truth, what I always believe and what I always see that everything happens for a reason. And if there is a level of transformation that needs to happen and for some reason this is how it’s happening you know? This is how it needs to work itself through you know? And I can’t really … again, it will be a lengthy conversation if I start to get into all the details you know? I can’t really say much more about it other than there’s a level of transformation, there’s a level of patterning that needs to let go you know? And for some reason this is how it’s choosing to work itself out you know?
Rick: Yeah well you know I’ve interviewed a number of people who’ve said a similar thing, that they’ve really gone through a physiological hell in the process of undergoing a transformation. And even like, you know, Saint Francis of Assisi, he went through this disease and he almost died and then when he finally came out of it he was like Saint Francis of Assisi and he woke up in this spiritual reason. So it almost seems, both in the traditional literature and in contemporary examples, but not always, but sometimes people have to go through a real meat grinder physiologically in order to facilitate or complete some sort of transformation that’s taking place.
Neelam: And also, you know, what I’m learning in the midst of that, I don’t think I could learn in any other way you see? So if this body-mind, if this vehicle is meant to serve in a certain way you know, if it’s meant to share in a certain way and that is part of that information then I can tell you there is a lot of information here you know that wouldn’t be there if it was happening in any other way.
Rick: Yeah as a matter of fact you quoted, I think Papaji is saying, well this is more with relationship to the psyche but you quoted him as saying, “The deeper the psychological wounding, the deeper the realization” and in this case we’re talking about a physiological travail that you’re going through but do you somehow feel like this process you’re going through is conducive to deepening your realization?
Neelam: You know I don’t really hold it in any particular way nor do I hold the realization in any particular way, you know, I don’t really measure, there’s no measurement right you know, so I can’t tell you know, I mean, I’m not really thinking about it like that, I’m not really holding it like that so it’s very hard to answer this question. All I can tell you is what I am learning from it, what I’m seeing is so unbelievable in a way, you know, it’s so different and I don’t know that there would have been any other way to see that.
Rick: Is it possible to put that into words, what you’re learning or is it more of a visceral kind of thing that you couldn’t really speak, articulate? N Again, it’s so much, you know, that we could probably talk for several hours about it, you know. I don’t know if there’s anything easy that I could, well first of all, just the vulnerability of the human body right? Just the real, real vulnerability of that right? And at the same time, a real, you know, ongoing sense which I can’t say, you know, it wasn’t there before but a real ongoing sense that everything is okay the way it is, that there’s just nothing that can shake that, that can move that, that there’s no circumstance, no situation, no body-mind condition that can really change that or shake that.
Rick: Yeah, I think sometimes people hear that phrase “Everything is okay the way it is” and it sounds to them to be sort of passive or defeatist or lacking in motivation but I think the way you mean it, and correct me if I’m wrong, is that there’s a sort of a Divine Intelligence that orchestrates our lives, that orchestrates the Universe and we can trust in that to have our best interests in mind, ultimately.
Neelam: Well when I say “Everything is okay the way it is,” I mean, in this moment, as you’re sitting here, and you can check, and we can just check on that, in this moment, when you really pay attention, when you for a moment just notice what is here then does anything have to be different?
Rick: No.
Neelam: No.
Rick: Now what if you had a severe toothache? Would anything have to be different?
Neelam: That’s the mind, Rick. That’s the point right? The mind goes “Well what if?” Right? But before we go there what you’re recognizing right now is part, what is really the symptom of our natural state. In truth, in reality, everything is okay the way it is. That’s the truth right? You don’t want to translate it into the ego place that says “Oh, things are fine. No problem. We can do it.” It’s just “Oh, okay.” That’s not what I’m saying right? It’s a real deep recognition that everything is okay the way it is just because you see? That’s the truth right? So what would that mean if we really allowed it? Because passive is a story you know? Again, that’s a story. “Oh, okay. It’s just passive.” What it would really mean is it would mean you are okay the way you are, nothing has to change right? Your life is okay the way it is, nothing has to change. Everybody is okay the way they are right? Nothing has to change. The world is okay the way they are, or the way it is right? Nothing has to change. And is that powerful you know?
Rick: Yeah, it is.
Neelam: It really would allow that you know?
Rick: And yes, and to me that doesn’t preclude going out and trying to solve this problem or working at your job or improving your life in various ways or helping the suffering. It’s like there’s a simultaneous paradoxical kind of acceptance and dwelling in everything being okay the way it is, which is not incompatible with improving things in various ways.
Neelam: Well, change is part of life and it doesn’t mean you’re not going to change things. It only means… What I’m always interested in is where are you coming from right? Because if we talk about okayness then it gives us a touchstone. That’s reality. So if you are in all honesty, let’s say something happened in your life right now, you know, I don’t know, something happened and you are just struggling with it. And in all honesty you would ask yourself “Is that okay that that’s happening right now?” And most likely your answer would be no. Then we know the gap between truth and reality and where you are you see? And by knowing that gap we know that we can do something about it you see? So we don’t have to suffer right? So much change happens from a place of not okayness. When you move from a place of not okayness you do change but you create more of the same which is not okayness right? Because the change is not real you know? The change is based on your body, mind, ego, idea of what’s supposed to be. The change is not a real movement that happens in presence right? So that understanding of okayness is not there to justify things. It’s not there to say “Everything is okay. That means we don’t have to do anything. We are all fine and it’s all fine.” It only means, you know, “Oh, I have a reference point. I have a place to go.” Because the mind is so deceptive. When things are here, you know, you can tell yourself that you are okay. But in truth you will check and you will go like, “Whoa, I’m not okay, and that means this is where I am at and this is where reality is. Can I be here?” Which just cuts down on so much unnecessary stuff you know? Just unnecessary stuff.
Rick: Well, to take an example, I mean, we just have had a lot of tornadoes in the Midwest, and theoretically our house could have gotten hit by a tornado last night. And I can honestly say that if that had happened throughout that experience, there would have been a kind of a foundation of, “Everything is okay, even though this is happening.” And then there also would have been the motivation to clean up, contact the insurance agency, do all the things that needed to be done. But there’s always a dimension or an element or a level of one’s life in which everything is okay regardless of what’s happening, at least in my experience so far.
Neelam: Exactly, exactly. And if you were to be not okay with that you would be suffering and then your action would be so different. You still would have to clean up but you would be in such a worse shape you see?
Rick: Yeah, yeah, I see what you’re saying.
Neelam: It would be such a much more difficult experience.
Rick: Yeah that’s really good you know, because I think sometimes people hear that teaching and in fact there was a teacher whom I was going to interview and he speaks a lot like this and some other guy was getting in touch with me and saying “I hate that, I want to come on the week after that guy and refute him, you know, because it seems so lacking in compassion” and so on. But I think if it’s understood in the proper context it’s not at all devoid of compassion.
Neelam: Because that kind of okayness means … what it means, translation means everything arises here.
Rick: Yes.
Neelam: That’s the truth we can’t avoid, you know. Can I avoid the body-mind experience that I have been going through over the last several years? No. Can I be in struggle with it? Sure. Would that be easier for me? No. Can I be at rest here? Sure. Does that make it easier? Definitely. Right? So that’s all it means okayness. It doesn’t mean some kind of idea, you know.
Rick: Yeah that’s really good. I’m glad we dwelt on that point a little bit. So let’s shift gears and let’s talk a little bit about awakening. We throw the term around a lot, awakening, enlightenment and so on. How do you define those terms?
Neelam: Well, first of all when I say “awake” I mean when I say, you know, our nature, who we are that’s awake. So every moment you are aware of that, that’s awake.
Rick: And what are you aware of, just for the sake of everyone listening? If you are aware of your nature, who you are, what is it you are aware of?
Neelam: Stillness, presence, rest, God, being whatever you call it, no mind, you know, the place of no identification, just these moments of just “Ah, space” right?
Rick: Yeah.
Neelam: Clarity, just here, right?
Rick: And is it sufficient for the situation to be that a sense of individuality is aware deep down of some presence or stillness or is it really that one has to … the whole identity has to shift?
Neelam: No, no, the sense of individuality has to disappear even if it’s just for a second right?
Rick: Right, right.
Neelam: That’s what I call “awake” because then there’s nobody there to really perceive that it just happens right?
Rick: Yeah.
Neelam: Now though, you know, for many of us it takes, in the beginning, we will be aware of these moments but then we will contract back into the sense of identity. You know, when we first become more consciously aware of these moments, because everybody has these moments, everybody has them, just nobody really pays attention and knows what they are right? But then when we more consciously become aware of it, you know, it happens and it doesn’t happen, that’s what it looks like right? It happens and then it doesn’t happen because we contract back into the sense of identity again.
Rick: Yeah.
Neelam: And so in the process of awakening, if we can call it that, most of the time we’ll be going back and forth between those for quite a while, you know, nobody knows for how long right? Because there’s no measurement of that again right? But there will be this like, “Oh, wow, this is amazing,” you know like. “Look at Rumi,” you know, “Just read Rumi’s poetry and see the process of just falling in love, being totally enticed by the beloved” right? “Being, you know, longing for it and desiring it,” da-da-da-da-da and eventually, phew, just being it right? So that’s a very, very, you know, step-by-step process of awakening really. So we go back and forth between these realizations and recognitions and then contraction into the body-mind. And, you know and so it gets more and more subtle, you know? We can even still be in expanded states of consciousness, in bliss and I mean, just totally amazing, beautiful things and there is still a sense of identity present right? Until eventually something happens, this is that moment when, you know, that sense of identity where it burns through and we are just simply unequivocally aware that who we are is just none of that right? That none of that is who we really are. And once that happens that doesn’t go away right? Because now something has happened and as before the sense of, you know, identity was so focused on the body-mind like we would just, you know, when you close your eyes you would just go back to the sense of your body. Now when you are quiet, what you go back to is vastness right? It’s present, it’s just natural, nobody’s doing it, but it’s just like something has shifted in the ground you know, of our experience right? It’s no more just relating to this, this is just part of it right?
Rick: If both things are … are you saying that one can completely … one gets to a point in which there’s no resurrection of a sense of individuality or anything or are you saying that the primary identification is with the vastness and on the surface, or in some kind of utilitarian way, there’s the individuality and all of its …
Neelam: Of course.
Rick: … likes and dislikes and quirks and what not.
Neelam: Yeah, the individuality doesn’t disappear necessarily but there is really not … but that ground of experience has changed.
Rick: It takes a back seat so to speak.
Neelam: Exactly, it’s not anymore just “Oh, this is me” it’s like, “Now, this is me” right? “Everything is me,” right? “Everything is me” and then there is that sense of individuality still here too, of course.
Rick: Yeah, I have a friend named Bob and he said that he underwent a profound shift at one point. He said prior to that it was always sort of Bob having the experience of consciousness and then after that it was consciousness having the experience of Bob.
Neelam: Exactly, exactly. Yeah, I said, “You walk in like this and then you walk out like that” and it’s like nothing really changed but so dramatically changed.
Rick: Yeah, when we use the word “dramatic,” it brings up the point that in some cases it seems for some people this sort of shift is very gradual, so much so that they hardly notice it. And other people it’s this night and day, profound, dramatic shift. Would you agree with that in your experience as a teacher?
Neelam: What I see more is that there is a moment in which the realization really happens. However, that moment can be a very subtle experience. For some of us, again, spiritual experiences or the amounts of it and all that has nothing to do with awakening right? That just is individual. For some people it happens like that, for some people it happens like something different and it doesn’t really matter. So the shift itself for some of us, can be “Whoa,” you know, just fireworks. And for some of us it’s going to be like, “Oh, that’s it? Wow, that’s amazing” right? But still there is a recognition there, because otherwise before there’s still this going you know? We are still going to it you know? It’s like “Oh yeah, that’s a nice place, I want to go there.” And then it’s like “Well, it’s not going because it’s here” right? Because everything is here.
Rick: Do you mind talking about your own path a little bit? Were you a fireworks lady or were you a subtle gradual? Or did you go through years of on again off again, “Got it, I lost it,” or what?
Neelam: Again a long story so I’m going to try to make it really short here. But at a certain point in my life for a long time, I wasn’t even aware that I’m on a spiritual path. I am sure that that’s true for many people. I wasn’t even aware. However, there was that momentum that was moving me in a certain direction which I then recognized later right? Later. And so at some point there is this like “Oh, there is something out there and I really want that but I don’t even know what it is and I don’t even have a name for it or I don’t even have, I don’t know what the path is or anything.” And then eventually as it quickens, as it comes more to the actual experience of it I just started to have different experiences. I just started to have different experiences that were so unusual that I didn’t know what they were. I didn’t know where they were coming from. At that time they were really scary. They were terrifying because you go out on the street and you suddenly see people’s past lives and their karma and their different things. I mean, just something opens and you’re just suddenly in this totally different world and you’re like “What the hell is happening?”
Rick: And you hadn’t been doing any spiritual practices right? This was just happening.
Neelam: Not spiritual per se. There was some kind of Kundalini kind of thing, yoga or I don’t remember exactly. There was something but it wasn’t really spiritual per se. Suddenly boom, something happens and this body-mind is just starting to experience a lot of expansion and a lot of visual and sensory experiences. And there’s like not being able to sleep. There’s just a lot of energy, just transformation going on. It’s like there’s no understanding whatsoever. And then I started to look for a teacher. I started to look for somebody. And I go to these Buddhist places and they say, “Well, it’s just whatever is happening, just be here and just do these practices.” And I’m there trying to do visualization and I just can’t because every time I sit quiet I just go into total bliss. There’s like nothing. There’s like no momentum towards that. So finally I go like, “Well, I don’t think this is working.” Because I’m just laughing most of the time because I just can’t make myself go there. And eventually coming more in touch with Ramana and reading some writings of Ramana but still really not fully trusting, not being able to fully trust. So then really looking for a physical teacher and then meeting another teacher before I met Papaji and just spending some time, a couple of years involved in this and again spending endless hours just in bliss and meditation. But the moment I would get up there would be suffering.
Rick: Yeah.
Neelam: And by that time the change would be so profound from the expanded states and the blissful states to the suffering states that I just thought, “I’m going crazy, I think.”
Rick: Wow, it’s interesting. So it was a complete on-off, black-white kind of shift, huh? It wasn’t like some of the bliss carried over into your daily life?
Neelam: Some of it did but there was such a huge difference between me just sitting there. I could sit for hours in bliss and then I would get up and I would be like, “What? This is just suffering, right?” And then I remember lying down at some point and this thought arose that said, “I want to find somebody who is going to show me out of this.” And a week later I was in Satsang. Never heard about Satsang, never knew anything about it. A week later somebody brings a flyer to my house about Satsang. It’s a flyer of Satsang with Gangaji and I’m reading it and I’m just thinking, “Huh, that’s interesting. This woman didn’t spend millions of years sitting in… I mean, I don’t know that, but she didn’t spend years in this lifetime sitting in a monastery.” So eventually I go there and so goes from there. Shall I tell you more?
Rick: Yeah, yeah, please, this is interesting.
Neelam: So I go to Satsang with Gangaji and in the beginning there’s just so much love in that place that there’s a total contraction in my body and just goes like, “No way, I’m just not going there.” So I just don’t go. At that time she used to travel for a month at a time. So after a few days I go like, “Huh, well, maybe let’s try it again.” So I go there and I go there and just instantaneous almost my mind drops and it’s just total absolute stillness and just bliss and just like nothing ever happened. So I write her a letter, she invites me, we talk and all that. And then somewhere halfway through, she always has had Papaji’s picture with her. And somewhere halfway through I suddenly see Papaji, which I didn’t see before.
Rick: The picture you mean?
Neelam: Yeah, yeah, but you know the picture was there all the time but I just didn’t see it, how you suddenly see something. And I recognize in that moment, “This is my teacher and that’s where I have to go and that’s it.” So about six months later I’m in India with Papaji and that’s how it went.
Rick: And so how long did you have to be with Papaji before this phase of either bliss or suffering ended and it sort of settled down?
Neelam: What was interesting is that initially when I saw Papaji I just went like, “Wow, this is just totally unbelievable and this is amazing and it’s unbelievable that that exists in a human form, that that exists.” However, then the first month there was like, “Okay, well, I have had all these experiences already.” See still a very subtle veil of the ego that would just sit there. “Well, what are you going to show me, right? Here I am, right? I have already experienced so much.” And of course slowly realizing with some help that this is just wrong, this is not the right way to be there. And then something drops inside and I recognize that I just have to fully give myself to it, just give myself to it. And I do, I give myself whatever arises for me to do, write him a letter, talk to him, do this or do that, whatever it is, I just follow that. And I follow that to the point, to the place where I ask him at some point “Can I come and sit close near to him when he gives satsang?” And he says, “Okay.” And I go there and sit there with my eyes closed and I hear what he’s saying to everybody. And this has been months already, I’m there for months, two or three months already. I have heard him speak right? But I’m hearing for the first time, I’m really hearing on the inner what he says to everybody. And for the first time I really recognize what he’s speaking is true. This is just the truth. And so something relaxes in my own body-mind, we can say trust or whatever, something happens. And that very day I go to, I’m going out for dinner and suddenly this huge fear of death arises. And I just go like, “No way.” So I’m just going to have the dinner and sit there with some friends and have the dinner. And the fear of death is just like right here, just totally present. And I’m just like, “I’m not going there.” And then I walk out of the dinner and three little Indian girls come up to me, just in the middle of the street that I am walking and they come up and each has a little flower and they just give it to me silently. Each just gives me that little flower and they don’t say anything, we can’t speak. And my heart just totally opens and just breaks and I just go like, “Okay, I’m just going to go home and just sit and just see what happens.” So there I am.
Rick: So you went home and you sat. Home, you mean home in Lucknow, not home in…
Neelam:
Neelam: Oh in Lucknow right. I’m just going to go and just sit and I sit and that just takes a second. And there’s that huge desire to just run and be with Papaji and sit at His feet. And that fear of death just arises and just sweeps through the body. And there I’m sitting and still with my eyes open I can see everything disappearing, just what we see, what we normally relate to as reality, everything disappears and there’s just total stillness and there’s just a total… just what I can’t describe, indescribable.
Rick: And that was it? I mean, would you consider that moment to have been the shift or is it more gradations than that?
Neelam: You know, because when it happened it was just timeless and it took a long time to come to the sense of the body-mind and whatever else was happening, that took its time. And then I have written Papaji a letter about it. So the next day I’m going to satsang with this letter and I walk into satsang and suddenly I realize everything is me. You see, Papaji is me, everything is me, there’s really no separation. So from that moment on, I’m not saying that that’s the end of the embodiment, I’m just saying from that moment on there’s just no doubt or no question about that.
Rick: Yeah, it was a very significant milestone, you could say.
Neelam: Yeah, yeah, because from that moment on then what I know is everything is okay the way it is. Truth is our nature, presence is our nature, everything is here, I am everything, there’s really no separation and that’s it.
Rick: Was there some profundity or fullness to the experience at that point there with Papaji and in the midst of that transition which tended to fade over time or would you say even the opposite, that it’s enriched or matured over time?
Neelam: There was a certain fullness. First of all the body-mind was challenged by the experience. There was such a tremendous shift and such a tremendous amount of energy that there were just some physiological, physical things that were going on that just challenged the body and it eventually got used to that. And I would say though, maybe there was a couple of years of just real, real expanded state which then eventually gradually settled, it settled into more of a sense of just fulfillment or just rest. So at some point it just so became clear, even more again, it’s not about states, even that expansion is just really what the body-mind goes through, it’s not the essence, it’s not the core of the experience.
Rick: Yeah, this point about states, it’s kind of a point of debate in many spiritual circles and even among myself and a friend who is a student of yours or has been. Ramana said at one point, I came across a quote, that there are no levels of awareness but there are levels of experience. And I think that’s where the confusion arises. Awareness itself is just a homogenous wholeness but experience, the degree to which one embodies awareness, then it seems like there’s no end to the … I was kind of saying this in the very beginning of the interview, no end to the embodiment or to the integration or to the fullness with which that can be lived or expressed. Would you agree or no?
Neelam: Let’s clarify Ramana, because you know, what he just simply said, he just simply set a stage for the levels of … Levels, see, words are just so difficult, because we just start to interpret that.
Rick: Yeah.
Neelam: Basically said, okay, realization is one station in this, right? But what he also said and this is what we have to remember, because that’s where we get into argument. What he also said, you know, once realization happens there is no more willful volition. When a true realization happens there is no more willful volition. So there isn’t anybody there who can desire anymore for anything else.
Rick: Right.
Neelam: And he said, you know, based on the karma, the individual karma, there will be a momentum from the past that would bring certain individuals, call them, to a certain level of awareness after realization but that has nothing to do with our normal perception or understanding of okay, well, realization is here now what’s next? Right? What can we do now to … Because realization means that willful volition has ended right?
Rick: So if I understand what you just said, there may be further maturation into more kind of complete levels of awareness or realization, whatever, but it’s not by virtue of some individual motivation or volition that that happens, it has to just do with one’s karma, one’s dharma, whatever.
Neelam: Exactly and I would not even say more complete, because realization that’s it, that’s what he’s saying. But some, you know, again, individuals would reach a different level of awareness and that’s predestined right? This is not something that can be done, that can be desired. You know desire itself is the contradiction to that right?
Rick: Yeah so perhaps it has to do with what one’s destiny is as a tool of the Divine or whatever. So would you say that someone like Ramana or Papaji or whatever might be an example of someone whose destiny was such that they reached a more … I have to choose my words very carefully.
Neelam: I know, because it’s such trouble, you know, because really we have already so much terminology and we already have so many ideas we do have to be careful, you’re right.
Rick: Well, think of this as a metaphor.
Neelam: Maybe Kabir, who was really in the transcendent state, you know, who was really living in the transcendent state, maybe Kabir, that’s somebody that I can say.
Rick: Well here’s a metaphor that might help us. Let’s say you have a Christmas tree bulb, a little light bulb and it’s plugged into the 120 volt circuit in your house and then you have a spotlight out in the driveway that’s maybe 300 watts or something and it’s really bright. Both of those bulbs, so to speak, appreciate the same electrical field but one of them shines more brightly because that’s its function.
Neelam: But I want to make it more practical is that okay?
Rick: Sure, please.
Neelam: Because this is something we don’t have any control over.
Rick: Right.
Neelam: Nobody knows that and nobody has any control over that. That either happened or it didn’t, that’s either happening or not. Is it a huge light or is it a small light bulb? Nobody knows.
Rick: So if you’re born a little Christmas bulb you’re going to be a Christmas bulb appreciating the electrical field and if you’re a spotlight you’re going to be a spotlight, but both of them are plugged into the same source so to speak.
Neelam: Exactly, but what we can do, because this is nothing we can do about that right?
Rick: Right.
Neelam: What we can do and this is really, I really stress the need and the necessity for the process of embodiment right? I really see that the awakening, as it is the end of a certain part of our journey, is really a beginning, it’s really just an entry point into reality right?
Rick: Yeah.
Neelam: Into truth. So because this, where we end up on this spectrum between the tiny bulb and a huge thing, I mean, nobody knows and who cares right? This is just what’s happen or not right?
Rick: Yeah.
Neelam: This is just what’s going to happen or not right? But what we can do is we can really, at every moment, remain in the awareness of, “Am I at rest or am I suffering?”
Rick: Right.
Neelam: And that’s something we can do right? Because we don’t know when tendencies are going to arise. We don’t know what circumstances are going to bring that up. We don’t know, you know, awakening is not some thing you know? It’s not some kind of experience that we can hold onto. And I have seen that being held onto and I have experienced that for a very short time in my own experience, a tendency to, “Oh, maybe I want to stay here.” No, no, really not. It’s not worth it right? There’s nowhere to stay. There’s nowhere to be, you know? This is uninteresting right? Not really. But we have the capacity to remain in the total honesty, in the total truthfulness, in the total openness, in the total vulnerability of where we really are you see? That’s what we can do, that’s what we can do right? We can’t do anything else but we can do this.
Rick: So you prefaced what you just said by saying that realization is, in one sense, the end of the journey, but in the other sense, the beginning of the journey because there begins the real process of embodiment. So was what you said after that, in the last minute or two an explanation of what you mean by embodiment? And if not, what do you mean by it?
Neelam: This is a very simplified explanation of course, because somebody asked Papaji, “Do you still have to be vigilant?” And he said, “With every breath.” Because you don’t know, nobody knows right? There’s no end, you know, end is an idea right? End is a story. So the embodiment is a real truthful living of what we know is true. And that includes body, mind, emotion, sensation, expression in the world, it includes everything right? That all your interactions are really in congruency with what you know, with what you really know not what you think right?
Rick: And does it eventually become sort of second nature like riding a bicycle? I mean, you might say, “Well, do you have to continue to balance?” Of course, every moment while I’m riding the bicycle but it becomes so automatic that I don’t even think about it.
Neelam: I would say in my experience, you know, because presence is your nature so there’s nothing you have to do about that ever, ever, right? However in my own experience, there’s a lot of stillness right? However, there are times that past is present and boy am I aware of that when that happens right? So now the question is, is there still an ongoing willingness to just be here?
Rick: When you say past is present, which I heard you say many times in the recordings, what you mean is past conditioning is coming up in the present and having its influence, is that what you mean?
Neelam: Exactly, yeah. That’s what I mean by past is present, that the past arises here and we are aware of it and now we can either be here or not right? So it seems right?
Rick: Yeah, so we have, like with Papaji’s vigilance point, we have the choice to sort of, or the need to be vigilant when the past exerts its influence so as not to be swayed by it.
Neelam: So what I mean because again, we are getting into the hard words territory, like choice you know? That’s always a point of intention, you know? But past is present and can you remain in surrender you know? Can you really remain in surrender no matter what you know? No matter what. And sometimes it’s difficult of course, you know? That’s why it’s called past right? Because it has its own momentum and its own importance right? It wants to tell you that maybe there is something to listen to right?
Rick: Yeah and so it’s interesting that you use the word “surrender” with reference to that. So let’s say a past tendency is coming up and tempting us to behave in a certain way. You’re saying that surrender is somehow … we’ve used two words here, “surrender” and “vigilance.” How do both of those things play into not being controlled by past conditioning?
Neelam: When past is present we can either be here or not right?
Rick: We could lose our grounding in presence or not, I see.
Neelam: Yeah and we can be here and being here sometimes means, oftentimes, to experience something that is difficult. Because that’s the reason past is still active right? Because it has not been experienced before. You know, if it has not been experienced before it has still momentum. It still appears as if it was vital and important and useful in some way. So seeing that, recognizing that and saying, “Okay, can I be here?” sometimes means experiencing things that are difficult right? Because that’s what has not been experienced and that’s what would allow us to remain in our nature right?
Rick: And when we do that does it take the steam out of that past influence a little bit so that next time, if there is a next time, it’s not going to maybe have as much influence?
Neelam: It’s either you’re able to experience it and it never comes back again, which has happened, of course it happens. Or you have to experience it many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many times because that’s its momentum right? But that doesn’t matter again because every time you’re willing to be here, of course, its momentum lessens right?
Rick: Yeah, you’re not reinforcing it.
Neelam: Exactly because you’re not moving with it anymore. You’re not saying “Well, that’s okay, and let’s just do that” right?
Rick: Yeah. There’s something we kind of skipped over when you were telling your Papaji story and that is the word “transmission.” It seems that what was really going on there was far beyond whatever words Papaji was speaking or you were understanding. On a much more profound level there was a transmission taking place which was the real engine behind the transformation that you underwent.
Neelam: It’s so hard to say anything about that because of course right? But can I really say something about it?
Rick: Well perhaps what you could say about it is …
Neelam: I would just say just being in Papaji’s presence, that means being in the presence of truth, being in the presence of somebody who really has recognized truth, which means the mind stops there. It just doesn’t have a place to go right?
Rick: Yeah.
Neelam: So just being exposed to that, does it do something? Of course it does right? Because when you are in it, like you were using the example of the light bulb, when you are in the field of that, everything within you gets informed, that’s the truth, that’s the truth. It’s a non-verbal information but yet still it gets informed, right? “This is the truth, this is the truth, this is the truth,” right? So of course.
Rick: So in light of your own experience with Papaji and also your experience of many years now as a teacher, how much priority or emphasis would you place on the importance of being in the physical proximity of an awakened person as opposed to doing it on your own?
Neelam: I would say it’s individual, you know? I would say when there is the true desire for freedom it would attract you to where you need to be and if that means being with a person physically or in their proximity or in that sphere of influence, then that’s what your job is. And if it means to just be in the mountains or in the middle of the city on your own, then that’s, you know, like look at Ramana right? Ramana had a spontaneous awakening when he was 16, and that was it, right? Then he had that still draw and pull, you know, and recognition of Arunachala as something that is the thing and he made himself there, and after he arrived there, that was it right? There wasn’t any need for anything, right? Neither before or after, for him. But is that true for all of us? No, of course not. So it’s individual.
Rick: Same thing with Amaji, the hugging saint, she never had a teacher, she just kind of like … it was like …
Neelam: Exactly it’s natural, spontaneous, it just happened.
Rick: Yeah. At one point, are we doing okay on time?
Neelam: Yeah, we’re doing okay, yeah, maybe another few minutes.
Rick: Okay. At one point I heard you say something about the strong desire for freedom being instrumental in bringing about awakening and there’s traditional sources for this too in the Yoga Sutras for instance, Patanjali talks about the degree of intensity of one’s desire is going to have an impact on the speed of the realization but then again there’s this popular term and in fact even Papaji said it, of “stop seeking,” so there seems to be a kind of contradiction there between strong desire and stop seeking. That’s a question.
Neelam: Yeah, I lost you here for a moment.
Rick: Oh, okay. How much did you …
Neelam: Yes, yes, I hear what you’re saying.
Rick: Okay, good.
Neelam: So, I think what Papaji also said and what I would say for sure is that desire for freedom is the only true desire right? Because it doesn’t seek anything external you see. It seeks its own nature right? So it’s not a desire for anything right? So the desire for freedom, what it means, you see, it doesn’t mean necessarily I’m sitting there thinking, “I have to be free, I have to be free, I have to be free,” right? But desire for freedom means there’s a certain intensity and a certain fire and a certain devotion and a certain surrender to that need to know your own nature and to that need to know, to find out, you know, that there’s a certain power to that, there’s a certain strength to that right? So that is what’s going to help you to discriminate in the beginning between this and everything else right? So, you know, because in the beginning, like, there’s so much, there’s so many things going on that it’s like, “What’s true?” you know? And then there’s this one place that is just burning with wanting something, wanting something. And what is it? Food, this, that? No, but it’s wanting something right? So I find that’s instrumental because that moves us towards what we want right? But then of course we come into the presence of somebody like Papaji who, you know, the mind just doesn’t enter, right? You know, the mind doesn’t… I always thought Papaji is like the cookie monster from the Sesame Street, you know, like the mind just gets, you know, eaten up in His presence, you know, because He’s just sitting there, you know, and the stillness is so powerful, you know? And so then you come into a presence like Papaji, and He says, “Just stop,” right? Because you arrived in a place where it brought you far enough you see? It took you out of the samsara you know? It took you out of the, like, “Everything matters, and let’s go everywhere, and let’s do everything,” and it focused your attention on something that is really important, until you found a place that told you “Enough! You’re already here, just stop” right? That’s the end of that desire, of course, but it had its function, it was natural.
Rick: Very good, I’m glad to hear you say that because a lot of times people read this, you know, “Stop seeking,” and it’s way premature, they’re not sitting in the presence of somebody like Papaji and they might interpret that as “Oh, well, might as well just sit back on the couch and crack a beer you know?”
Neelam: Yeah, but what He always means when He says, “Stop seeking,” He says, “Now, in this moment stop looking for anything. Look here, here you are, don’t look for anything, stop seeking, stop looking, stop looking.”
Rick: Stop looking somewhere else.
Neelam: Somewhere else, here it is, that’s what He means, “Stop seeking now, now,” right? Now.
Rick: Yeah, yeah, good. Okay, a couple more questions then we’ll wrap it up. I’ve interviewed a number of people who, before they had ever heard of Ramana or anything else, actually had a visitation from Him. They were walking down the street or they were sitting in their bedroom or whatever and this Indian man shows up and they’d never seen him before and maybe years later they saw his face on a book cover and then, “Oh, that’s the guy I saw!” What do you think is going on with that?
Neelam: Well again, consciousness … by the way, Papaji had visitation from Ramana too right, before He met Him in person. And I would say, you know, consciousness, the truth responds to a true desire. So wherever there’s a true desire the truth itself will respond to that, in whatever way is necessary you see? So if it’s a vision of Ramana or a visitation, because it’s not a vision, if it’s a visitation of Ramana, if it’s a book that we find, if it’s a word that we hear, if it’s a person that we get to talk to and they tell us about something that’s a natural mechanism right? It’s a natural thing. So many people have experienced that, you know, strong desire, they go and they find a book, and they go like, “Wow!” because that’s their response right? And there’s also something about the lineage you know? There’s also something about the lineage that the lineage just … I don’t know how that is but it’s predestined, right? So there will be also that choice so to speak, again, because who is choosing, right? That it ends up in this particular stream, in this particular ocean.
Rick: Yeah, to me it’s fascinating because it points to the idea that there’s such a incomprehensibly vast intelligence that’s governing the universe that could actually show us the face of Ramana a decade before we actually even encounter his picture on a book or something. It’s fascinating that this kind of thing can happen.
Neelam: Our imagination of what’s happening is so small. What we can think is so tiny, so there is just such a much vaster design really happening here that when we recognize it, when we realize that, that’s where that sense of unshakable okayness with everything comes from because when we recognize that everything is taken care of, really, truly, it’s all been in its design forever, we really don’t have to do that.
Rick: Yeah, that’s really beautiful. I mean, we’re hinting around at the “G” word here, you know, “God,” but there really is that sort of … well you expressed it very beautifully just then. There’s a sort of a design or a kind of a cosmic intelligence that seems to have a hand in how things are going in our lives.
Neelam: It’s already happening, it’s been already in motion. We’re just catching up, we’re just like, “Oh yeah, wow, that’s amazing, that’s happening!”
Rick: I read an article the other day that astronomers now believe that there are literally billions of inhabitable planets in our galaxy alone and kind of dwell on that for a second and think about what a vast play this is that we’re playing a little part in.
Neelam: Yeah, and Papaji used to say, “Millions of universes, millions of beings in a space that doesn’t have any depth at all.”
Rick: Fascinating. Great, well this has been wonderful or to use a phrase that I’ve heard you say many times and I’ve grown very fond of it, “good, good.”
Neelam: There we go, you said it, you did it, you are it! You are the man!
Rick: It became a very endearing sort of term. I like the way you say that with your Polish accent. So I really appreciate having had this opportunity, it’s been a very enjoyable interview. Is there anything you’d like to say in closing or have we pretty much taken care of it?
Neelam: No, I think it’s good.
Rick: Okay, good. So let me just make a couple of concluding remarks. I’ve been speaking with Neelam. This is an interview in an ongoing series and if you have enjoyed this then you can find many more on YouTube or by going to www.batgap.com and you can subscribe there to be notified by email whenever a new one comes up and also you can subscribe to the YouTube channel and you’ll be notified that way. This is also available as a podcast so you can listen in audio on your iPod or whatever. And there’s a discussion group at www.batgap.com which often becomes quite lively with even hundreds of sometimes very intelligent comments being posted by people around each interview. So each interview has its own little discussion group that develops, so feel free to go there and participate in that if you like. I’ll be linking to Neelam’s website from www.batgap.com, so if you’d like to get in touch with her and find out about courses and programs that she offers you can just follow that link and you’ll go to … what is it? www.neelam.org?
Neelam: Yeah, www.neelam.org.
Rick: Yeah, N-E-E-L-A-M, so you can just go there directly but I’ll also be linking to it. Have you written any books?
Neelam: No not yet, we are just working right now, we are working right now to get a book out.
Rick: Okay, let me know when that’s out and I’ll link to that too.
Neelam: Sure, sure. Just sit quietly for a moment, okay?
Rick: Okay, good, and then you can bring us out of it when you wish.
Neelam: Yeah, thank you for that.
Rick: Thank you, Neelam.
Neelam: Yes, thanks.
Rick: It’s been a joy.
Neelam: Thank you.
Rick: All right, bye-bye.
Neelam: Bye.