Lisa Rose Interview

Summary:

Full transcript:

Rick: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer. Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of conversations with spiritually awakening people. I’ve done nearly 600 of them now. If this is new to you and you would like to check out previous ones, please go to batgap.com, B-A-T-G-A-P, and look under the past interviews menu. This program is made possible through the support of appreciative listeners and viewers, so if you appreciate it and would like to help support it, there’s a PayPal button on every page of the site. And there’s also a page of alternatives for people who don’t want to use PayPal. My guest today is Lisa Rose. Welcome Lisa.

Lisa: Thank you.

Rick: You’re welcome. Lisa would fall into the category of people who aren’t teachers, who haven’t written a book, who are not trying to be famous, as far as I know, but who have had a very profound spiritual awakening and a very interesting story to tell about it. And we like to interview those people whenever we can find them. I’m going to just read a few little bits from the short bio that she sent me, but I want her to do most of the elaborating. So here’s what I’ll just read. “All I ever did was emphatically declare, ‘I want to know God – now.’ It wasn’t long before I was fast-tracked into a reality I didn’t know existed, an inner world full of extraordinary gifts and ultimately liberation of the mind. The regeneration occurred February 2016, followed by three full years of bliss. The state of consciousness I am convinced is that of a newborn. I wallowed in that cocoon, integrating the expansion that I sometimes felt might never end, until the desire emerged to step back out into the world. While monumentally profound in numerous aspects, I have always felt it to be a pure, to be purely a transition that the best is yet to come”. So these are three, those are three little disjointed, you know, snippets of what she sent me, but I would, you know, much prefer that she fill in all the details than me read a big long thing. So Lisa, where shall we start?

Lisa: Well, how about if I start by just communicating the experience, because that’ll get the flow going, because it was pretty exciting. And then we’ll talk about some other aspects of, how I arrived at the experience and what has occurred since. Okay, what has been called a spiritual awakening, I have another word for it – Rick mentioned it in the bio – I use regeneration, a regeneration of my consciousness. But it was referred to as a spiritual awakening after it occurred, and I began researching it, and the word kundalini kept coming up, and I researched kundalini awakening. So it occurred one evening after approximately three years of intense contemplation. I never knew anything about meditation or prayer. Like Rick said, I was completely irrevocably done with human suffering, and I really wanted to know God, and I stated that to somebody very specifically and emphatically. And I got a laptop and I wound up on a path that led me down quantum theory and meditative science – mind science, meditative science – and I fixed upon a pamphlet written back in the early 1900s called Mind’s Silent Partner by Dr. James Porter Mills. And in there was a formula to regenerate one’s consciousness from the normal human race consciousness to divine consciousness, and we do that through the I am statement of being and contemplating our omniscient, infinite, and eternal nature. So a little bit about what I was doing that led up to the experience, having no idea about a spiritual community or spiritual awakening or anything. So one evening as I sat down to contemplate, actually study, I happened to be almost taking a course of Ramana Maharshi’s teachings – and we’ll talk a little bit about that in just a few minutes – but sat down to study, looked at a picture of Ramana Maharshi just kind of like this off the book that I was studying. And because I was having some difficulty physiologically with a lot of pressure in my system – a lot of energy that was rising up in my system – I was in a state myself of suffering. And I looked at him and I questioned to myself, Ramana, how, you know, because we were studying his life history and at this point in time we were only day eight into the course and I was learning about him as a young man, right, and learned that he had had some sort of experience and ran off to the mountains and he wasn’t taking care of his body, people had to take care of him. And the first thing I thought of was how could you possibly do this to your beautiful young body? I’m suffering, how is it you could possibly just lay in the gutters – was the way it was written – you know, and have people take care of you, and Rick, I honestly threw the book across the bed in total disgust. I was and I’m wondering to myself why am I studying this material, you know, I’ll get back to my James Porter Mills meditations, right, to wedding house. I tossed the book across the bed. I had opened up a bottle of beer because I just finished a two-hour conversation with some people that I was speaking the whole time, took a swig of the beer, set the beer down, and this is when the experience occurred. So I have my… I’m sitting up on the bed, my legs are stretched out, and suddenly a flash sensation came over my entire body instantly as I describe it to people, as if every particle of my body stood at attention, as if meeting its maker. It was an incredible sensation. But in the very next moment my eyes clamped shut – not of my own volition, I did not clamp my eyes shut – and they stayed shut through the entire experience, clamped, right, then something slid back in the middle of my head, which was an incredibly euphoric sensation, incredibly euphoric. And then this energy, this pressure that had been building up, this rising energy due to my three years of contemplation, started to gush through the crown of my forehead, or excuse me, the crown of my head like a fire hose is the way I describe it, very, very powerful. I liken it sometimes to if you’re riding in the backseat of a vehicle and somebody up, you know, rolls down their window, you know that intense wind like tunnel?

Rick: Fluttering kind of thing, yeah.

Lisa: Yeah, that fluttering sensation, but anyhow, this energy is gushing through the crown of my head at that power, and I knew something, of course, by this time that it was very profound happening, happening to me. All I could think of was how great it was because the pressure had been building up so much. A few moments into things, just a few moments into things, remember my eyes are clamped shut, a holographic image of Ramana Maharishi appeared behind – I’d say my eyes were closed – but it first appeared right here in the middle of my forehead, a holographic image of Ramana, this image of him, just the bust.

Rick: I can’t quite see that, but yeah, okay, just his head.

Lisa: Yes, just the head, a very familiar picture of him. So it is a holographic image, black and white, and he says in a… it was kind of a metallic voice with an Indian accent, it was a male voice, Indian accent, a little metallic, higher in tone than I would have expected. But he said, “Feel good?” and not having, you know, inside I’m shaking my head, I’m not shaking my head, but inside I’m agreeing, and he says, “Enjoy”, and the image starts to fade. And I said, “Don’t go”. Of course, I’m not saying this, it was right in that moment that I realized I’m speaking telepathically, it was in my mind that I was speaking this, “Don’t go”. The next thing I knew, the image, of course my eyes are clamped shut, appeared again behind just my left eye, and there’s some significance to that. Later, I’ll talk to a little bit about that, but the image, and this time it’s no longer a full body image, he’s laying – you’ve seen pictures of him on the chassis in the ashram…

Rick: lying down, yeah.

Lisa: Yeah, kind of like that, but he wasn’t like that, his legs, his arms were at his side, and he’s looking at me, and he says, “However long you stay is all that I am”. A and I literally was floored, because that is a song phrase, a phrase of a song that I would sing at the top of my lungs – maybe a decade earlier – from a song by a group called The Sick Puppies, called “All the Same”. And if you go back and look at those words, they obviously have a lot of meaning, but “However long you stay is all that I am”. And I, of course, am still in bewilderment at what is happening, the energy is still gushing out of my head. And there were several things that were said that, you know, just communicating back and forth telepathically, which was really cool. At one point in time, and I won’t go into detail, because a lot of it doesn’t, is not that significant, except for a couple of things. When there was one time when I asked a question telepathically, and when I looked at him – sometimes I would switch my vision or my attention to my right eye, okay, and I couldn’t see him in my left eye – so I’m looking at him, I asked him a question, and the image, his head had turned away. And I knew that the question that I asked was one that he wasn’t going to answer at all, and I turned and looked into my right eye, thinking, “What I must have done the most spiritually, the biggest faux pas ever, asked Ramana Maharshi such a question, I didn’t know what to do, what to say, I was kind of embarrassed, right. And then he… then something comes out of my mouth, but I did not think this thought, Rick. It was if he was compassionate enough with me, there was a thought that was put into my head, that then I asked the next question to him. It was really kind of interesting, because I’m over here in total embarrassment, and the next thing I know, I’m asking him a question that was put into my head, that was really cool, I thought that was really cool. Several other things happened. One was, I’m sitting there and again, energy still gushing out of the middle of my head, and I get an itch on the outside of my left eyelid, that wouldn’t go away. And it’s… I’m looking at him, I’m staring at him, he’s got this grin on his face, and he looks at me and says, itch it. Because I’m thinking if I itch it, right, all this is gonna, the whole thing is gonna blow up, and it’s gonna go away, so I was doing my best. But he knew what was going on, and he said itch it, so I itched it, I was surprised really that I could lift my hand up, my arms had been at my side and my body, I couldn’t even feel my body, right. I’m still in my body by the way, all this time, okay, I never left my body. And so I itch it, and he’s still there, we continued on a little bit further in the communication, until he suddenly decided it was time to go, he said, time for you to contemplate now, which was really interesting, he uses the word contemplate, right, knowing I’ve never meditated a day of my life. I knew nothing about meditation, I was contemplating all those three years, right. And as he’s parting, and he’s fading, and he’s kind of walking into me, so I can feel my head looking, you know, into myself, right. And he’s walking, and he says, and he says, hold on, stay inside, and that too is another phrase from a song that I was singing at the top of my lungs for over a decade, two and three times a day, I just loved it. Believe it or not, it’s a heavy metal song, by, and I’m not really a heavy metal person, but I love this song by a band called Tool, called Parabola, and it speaks to a very spiritual happening, where the spirit of life is rising up through the songwriter. So Ramana is giving me this song phrase, “hold on, stay inside”, and so that was, that was, that was pretty incredible. And then, and then the image completely faded, and, and I was left to enjoy the, the remainder of the experience, and, and when all the energy stopped gushing out of the top of my head, my eyes came open very naturally, everything was fine, and I grabbed a notebook, and I wrote everything down, best as I could remember. So I didn’t do my homework that night, my Ramana Maharshi homework. But it was quite profound, it lasted maybe 10-12 minutes, I guess, the beer was still cold, it had set over on the side of the bed. And so wildly extraordinary, out of the ordinary, I think it probably took almost a month, Rick, of me just thinking about it, remembering it, re-reading my notes to, you know, try to grasp any, any significance of it at all, so gorgeous experience. Immediately afterwards, there weren’t any physiological changes, nothing occurred that was out of the ordinary, like seeing unicorns, or, you know, psychic abilities, or nothing of that nature. I, my… nothing, nothing really changed. In fact, it took almost three or four months before all that pressure that I was feeling in my upper body began to dissipate. And so, but, not to say that my life hasn’t totally changed, and there’s been a lot that’s happened since, but I… that gets me going, that gets me in that state, that flow to share, so thank you for letting me.

Rick: Great, yeah, we’ll unpack all that. And while we’re on this note, a question came in from Rahul in India. He said, you know, Lisa said she was in bliss for three years after this she been able to work at will with her Kundalini, or does she struggle with the energy?

Lisa: I was struggling with the energy throughout the three years of contemplation, and probably after I had spoken with Bonnie Greenwell, a psychotherapist, a Kundalini expert, and of course, I didn’t speak to Bonnie until after the full three years of bliss. I pretty much took Ramana’s suggestion to hold on and stay inside, meaning don’t go – the way I interpreted it – don’t go outside of yourself to try to find out what happened to you. And there was a good reason for that, because I wasn’t experiencing the bliss right away, it actually came very gradually, right – we’ll talk about that in a minute. But to answer Rahul’s question, three years afterwards, when I felt like I was done, ready, I contacted Bonnie Greenwell to begin to understand what is Kundalini – this beautiful life energy is what I call it. And in talking through some things with her, we went back through some of my earlier years from about age perhaps I’ve been having Kundalini symptoms all those years, but not knowing what they were – heart palpitations, we’ll speak about that in just a little bit, sensations, tingling sensations throughout my body. So to answer his question, because I didn’t know physiologically what was happening to me – I had no orientation at all to Hinduism or the life energy – I simply kept after it. One of the most interesting things along the way, the three years of contemplation, was that as, the more I contemplated – and what I contemplated on was our omniscient and infinite and eternal nature – and along with that came this sense of knowing, knowing – they call it the gnosis – the sense of knowing that everything was going to be okay, that that all of this is happening for a reason. And of course what else was I going to do, but to continue to – and this is where I had learned about what I call the art of surrender through Ramana Maharishi. Very briefly I’d heard, I’d heard about the surrender, and I just latched on to that word, and learned to, in every single moment especially since a lot of this was happening to me physically, right, to just surrender into it. I’m not going to the doctors, okay, I’m not taking any special medication for any of this. I’m working through, because it was… it kept building up. So it started from the top of my head, worked downward in through my temples, into my jaw. I knew something was happening. Again it’s a, it’s a knowing, an art of surrender, and it’s coming from this, ah, beautiful life energy that is moving through me. And it’s giving me the confidence, the faith, right, to continue to pursue my spiritual practice at all cost. So yeah, thanks for the question.

Rick: Sure, here’s another one that came in, a Kundalini-related one from – probably he or she pronounces it – Jean from France, “Could Lisa shed some light on how to approach or nourish the Kundalini process so it unfolds harmoniously and leads to realization or awakening?” For me, it’s been evolving in phases, intense kriyas – Kriyas are, you know, body motions that sometimes are caused by Kundalini, I’m just telling for the audience – then harmonious mudras – mudras are these like, various hand symbols and stuff that might be made – some soma dropping, which maybe you can explain, if our energy intensifying yet running smoother, like my vessel is cleaner, meditation deepens from one day to another, but existential pain is intense. That’s the question.

Lisa: Oh boy, because I didn’t know about Kundalini or life energy or auras or what do we call biofields, I knew nothing about energy, I knew nothing about energy and what was happening to me. So all I knew was to surrender to it. And I think Bonnie Greenwell would better be able to explain and answer that question, she’s worked with two to three thousand people who have had all kinds of Kundalini-related symptoms, right. I had a couple of them that this questioner has asked, but I only knew surrender, meaning… and I can’t even say that I knew to relax into it, there’s no relaxing into it sometimes other than I did hike a lot. I did hike a lot to help to release that energy and it always made me feel better. But I was always back to my contemplative practice, so that by the end of the evening my head is, you know, still kind of full of that beautiful energy. One of the things I’d like to talk about a little bit later on is the lore and the mysticism I think that’s associated with this energy that perhaps would make it easier for some people to approach it full-heartedly and to embrace it and to surrender to it.

Rick: Okay, let me just mention that I’ve interviewed Bonnie Greenwell twice, you can find her in the past interviews menus on BatGap, and also Joan Shivarpita Harrigan, who’s a really great Kundalini expert, and Danny Antman and a bunch of others. There’s a categorical index and there’s a Kundalini category, and if you look at that you’ll see all the people I’ve interviewed that talk specifically about that. Lawrence Edwards was another one. So anyway, there’s a lot to be found there. And there’s also some great books. Bonnie has written a book or two, Joan Harrigan has written a very comprehensive book about Kundalini, which goes into it in great, great detail. So if a person wants to learn more about it just in terms of their understanding, those are some good resources.

Lisa: Yeah, yeah, Bonnie was very helpful in… when I, again, after the three years of bliss, right, and I was looking back, I’m like, “huh?” – you know, I had no idea. And of course, some of the, not just physical, but psychological manifestations of the Kundalini energy. And again, even according to Bonnie, I mean, on Bonnie’s website, she has the word “surrender” right there, right there on the front page of her website, because it is a… well, it’s your higher self. It is your life energy that’s trying to break through blockages, our conditionings, right, that we have subjected ourselves to since we were children, and sometimes unknowingly, sometimes knowingly. And it’s really just your higher self that’s here right with us at all times, trying to break through those blockages. So it’s not here to frighten you. It’s not here to hold you back or make anything more difficult for you. It might seem so in the time, at the time it’s happening, trust me, but it will break through. It will find a way to break through if you’re fully surrendered.

Rick: Yeah.

Lisa: It’s a very, very loving, very intelligent energy, life energy.

Rick: It can be frightening, of course, if a person has no idea what it is and they start having these symptoms, like you, I mean, 20 years going to doctors, taking pills, this and that. And it could even be more intense than that. I mean, sometimes people… well if you read Gopi Krishna’s book and you know the hell that he went through for a long time. So you know it depends on a lot of things I imagined, a lot of variables such as the intensity of the flow and the solidity of the blockages and a number of… if you get into Joan Harrigan’s work, there’s all sorts of different routes that the kundalini can take and sometimes it can get off on a tangent and get sort of stuck in a deflected rising, as they call it. So it’s a whole science and there’s a lot to know about it.

Lisa: Well, let’s talk about the three years of bliss.

Rick: Yeah, that sounds refreshing.

Lisa: Well, after the gorgeous experience, I really kind of didn’t know what to expect, although I did pay attention and stay with it.

Rick: So the three years of bliss commenced right after this Ramana Maharishi on the bed with the beard?

Lisa: Well, it surfaced, Rick, honestly, I didn’t recognize it until probably about six months into it. I happened to be at a spiritual retreat. I thought, oh, there’s a spiritual community out there. I had no idea. I went to a spiritual retreat. Regina Dawn Akers was awakening together.

Rick: Who has been on BatGap.

Lisa: Yes. And we had an exercise where we were to close our eyes and manifest anger within us, right, or some negative human emotion. And I closed my eyes and for the life of me, I couldn’t generate a negative human emotion at all. And that was the first time I recognized, I don’t have any negative human emotions at all. And that was six months. And I kept riding that wave, actually, for 18 months. So it wasn’t just negative human emotion that I was no longer experiencing, it was even some positive human emotion. Things like, you know, joy and laughter and things like that. They were all kind of still there. But what I was trying to explain is that this bliss, this bliss kind of trumps all human emotion. I call it original human emotion, original consciousness. It’s as if I were a newborn. And you know how a child, maybe by about the age of six months old, starts to, you know… the face opens up, the eyes open up, and it’s smiling and giggling. And, you know, by the time he’s 18 months old, he’s just running around. It’s just a happy thing. And there were some things like, I would be able to stand at the edge of a hundred-foot cliff. And you know, how does you look down and you’re like, oh my god, stay away from that. No, I was, whoa, I could honestly dive into that cliff, just like a little 18-month-old child would just plunge off of a cliff. Certain things like that, sensations of fear or animosities or things like that that you were trying to stay away from – I didn’t have those sensations. And I found it to be the most extraordinary thing ever. I thought, you know, everything would just slide off me, like Teflon, right? And so it rose up ever so gently, and I call it a bell curve. And after about 18 months, right, then just as gently as the bliss surfaced, it fell away in exactly another 18 months. So three, four years of bliss. And as it was falling away, don’t think for a moment I wasn’t saddened. It’s the first time I felt the negative human emotion was a little bit of sadness that the bliss was falling away. And as it continued to fall away, you’re like, where’s my bliss? And the negative human emotions have never returned, never returned. And this was happening between negative situation like what we’re all going through right now, right? And, you know, I just see it entirely differently now. The only emotion that I ever feel anymore sometimes is some frustration, some frustration at some things. But as the bliss was falling away, and I’m wondering why it’s falling away, I realized that it’s because during those three… during that period, let’s say I’m up to about desires whatsoever – none. We sold the house, closed down the businesses. My husband was ready to to retire. Anyway, we’ve been married 40 years and had been operating a home building business for about 15 years together, right? And moved, sold the house, moved to Colorado, took up fly-fishing. I didn’t have a care in the world. I didn’t have a desire to even speak out or, I mean, things were still working through me. I was not done yet. I was still in the oven, right? I was still baking this whole process. They call it integrating, integrating the process. And now I see why. I mean, had you spoke to me directly after the experience, I would have said, “Yeah, well, I had this experience. Big deal, right?” But, or at, how about at the peak of the bliss, I would have sounded like a bliss nanny. I… seriously, there was total detachment from the world, total detachment. And so I can see how in the days of, let’s say, Ramana Maharshi or Aurobindo, that era where we just run to the mountains. We create ashram around us because we can barely, I say, barely take care of ourselves. Thank God for my husband. I call him my ashram because if it weren’t for him, I, I would have… I just needed him. Especially here in the West, in the United States, you know, things became very very difficult. Things I didn’t want to do, like go shopping anymore. I didn’t care about cooking anymore. It just falls away. You’re just in bliss. So, beautiful, beautiful period of bliss. And it fell away. And as it was falling away, I began to realize – and this is part of the wisdom of this beautiful life energy that continues to rise up into your consciousness, that tells you – that there’s a reason why the bliss is subsiding. And there’s a reason and a purpose. And here I am right now to speak to everybody about it. If the bliss did not go away, I wouldn’t be here speaking about it and being able to share with all the world.

Rick: I have a few thoughts on all this. First a question, what does your husband think about all this?

Lisa: Well, it wasn’t until after the bliss that I spoke to him about it. And, of course, you know, deer in the headlights, right? And so we choose the moments carefully and the circumstances.

Rick: Did he think something weird was going on with you?

Lisa: No, not really. I think, you know, he… I already had been spending a lot of time by myself in contemplation. You know, I stopped a lot of group outings that we were doing, big group events. We lived on a golf course community and I stopped doing large tournaments, stopped doing boating activity. I ended up kayaking a lot by myself, hiking a lot by myself. So, you know, it was fairly gradual shifts in my behavior, but nothing really out of the ordinary. I didn’t watch TV much to begin with anyway, but from that point forward – since I took up contemplation – there was no TV. I haven’t watched TV in probably a decade. So other than golf – I love golf, but… But yeah, it’s… he’s been again, ashram without even knowing it. We’ve had such a good relationship since with no children. We’ve had a very very good relationship, worked together for It was kind of interesting that the… probably about… and again, I would choose my moments, Rick, choose the circumstances and find that right moment to say a little bit about something, right? And when I hit that point where I was telling him about Ramana Maharshi coming into it, Yeah, it was like, okay, so that might have been a little too premature, but it was only last summer, so you know, probably a good going on four and a half years after the experience, that we’re having dinner across from each other at the dinner table. And I was trying to open up again about the experience, and he set his fork down, and he looks at me, and he has a a glazed look in his eyes. And well, it wasn’t, it’s not… it was what it was. Because he says, “Lisa, I honestly do not have any idea what you’re talking about”. And he… it was a very heartfelt… he wants so much to understand, right? And it was in that moment that I realized, oh my gosh, even in these two years that, you know, because people who’ve, if we’ve never thought about God or Spirit in terms of consciousness or the principle of our being, okay, first cause, a lot of, a lot of terminology that I was using that I really didn’t realize that, there’s a huge segment of the population, at least here in the West, who’ve never even considered relating God, our Creator, to consciousness. And that’s when I realized, I’m like, okay, all right, Tim, would it help if I write a paper? “Yes, please”, and I said, “Tim, by the way, I recently found some science behind the bliss that I told you about, can I include that?” He said, “oh please, anything, anything, if you can put it in writing that maybe I can grasp this a lot better and we can talk about it at a level that I can understand”. So that’s what I did, Rick, and that is actually the paper that I wrote to you. It was out of inspiration to my lifelong partner who wasn’t understanding a word that I said, and I… Well, if he can’t understand what I’m saying, then I need to put it in writing, because a lot of it has a, has a very science orientation, basic fundamental science. So, it’s good now, he’s read the paper and he’s opened up to a lot of concepts like consciousness and higher self, and is actually starting to work on a meditative practice of his own, so there we go.

Rick: I re-read one just this morning called “From Existence to Life” – is that the one that you’re referring to? It’s like 12 pages long?

Lisa: Yes, that’s my paper.

Rick: Okay, good, if you want, I can actually link to it on the website and people can read it if they want to get into more details.

Lisa: Okay. Yeah, the one thing about that is if you put a warning on it, because the people other than you, and some of the science people that I’ve sent it to, science foundations… it is not a truth teaching. People expect that whatever comes out of me is going to be nothing but truth teaching, and I’ve not gotten to that point. It is a description of the experience, I’ve tried to put it in layman’s terms. I specifically put it in the context of the step-by-step process. This is what I did.

Rick: Yeah, no, it was a good account. It went step-by-step, as you say. And I’ll put it up there, because it might get into some stuff that we hadn’t talked about, that we don’t talk about today, and you know, people enjoy reading it. They haven’t published a book, so they might as well read that. Plus, at the end, there’s some science stuff that we probably won’t get into in such detail.

Lisa: Well, I don’t know, but let me just… the reason why I sent it to you, okay? I went to the BatCap site, which is just gorgeous, Rick, it is gorgeous. That’s where I found Bonnie Greenwell, and I love a lot of the interviews there. And I typed in the word – I forget what it was – consciousness or something. By the way, I came upon John Hagelin’s interview that you had, right? Gorgeous. I thought about sending him my paper as well, but the reason why I sent you the paper – I’d come across Dean Radin’s most recent interview with you, and at the very end of the two hours, if I may quote, because I was inspired to send you the paper he says, “The reason why you would do science in the domain of consciousness is to figure out who and what we are and to test whether the idea that we live in a nihilistic universe is correct”.

Rick: Yeah, I think that’s really a fundamental and extremely important thing.

Lisa: Yeah, but he says, “So, if there’s any evidence that we’re not living in a random universe that’s completely pointless, and you can get there rationally without having to dive into religion, that would help everyone”.

Rick: Yeah, great.

Lisa: That’s what my paper is about. There’s no religion whatsoever in my practices and what I was doing. There was religion in my consciousness still, Christian religion in my consciousness, but my practice that I was pursuing was one of regenerating my consciousness from a human race consciousness to divine consciousness. So, I have the step-by-step procedure right there in the paper, and hopefully, if it doesn’t… if it only just helps one person. Right?

Rick: Yeah.

Lisa: Yeah, maybe we can prove it in the lab.

Rick: I don’t think we’re putting down religion here. Religion has a lot of cool stuff in it, but it seems to be sorely lacking in experience, and if you just have all the trappings of religion without the experience that inspired the religion in the first place, it’s kind of like, I don’t know, it’s kind of empty. It’s like a dead body that lost its spirit or something.

Lisa: That’s good, yeah, that’s true. Yeah, you know, it’s what you bring to it, but I never brought anything to it. I never engaged in religious practice whatsoever, prayer, meditation.

Rick: Amazing, you could have hung out in Texas so long. He must have been the local pariah.

Lisa: Oh boy, just a gulf.

Rick: Before we get too far from your bliss experience, one conjecture I had as you were describing it was that, you know, let’s just use a metaphor. If a person’s a multi-millionaire, let’s say Jeff Bezos or something like that, then he could gain a hundred bucks here, lose a hundred bucks there, and he wouldn’t even notice it. He’s still gaining and losing the hundred bucks, but it’s just so completely eclipsed by his wealth that he doesn’t notice it. But if a person is homeless and on welfare and all, gaining or losing a hundred bucks would be a really big deal. You know, it would sort of rock his world one way or the other. So I think that we could maybe say that with regard to this upwelling of bliss and this fullness you were experiencing… Well, firstly, I think that maybe you can even complete my thought, but the ups and downs of life just don’t rock us that much because the fullness is so great by comparison with the little joys or sorrows, which may not even be little, but by comparison with the bliss, they are. And so there’s an equanimity. You know, equanimity is a big word in spiritual development, but it’s not something that you try to do. It’s something that happens when the fullness is genuine and well enough established.

Lisa: Yeah, it’s a good place to talk about what was actually happening from a physiological standpoint. I’ve done some research. So after the bliss – after the three-year bliss period, gorgeous, you know – I decided to to step out and research Kundalini. I talked to Bonnie that seemed to be appropriate. There was a lot of information out there. But, you know, and I hooked up with Emerging Sciences Foundation.

Rick: Yes, I’m on their mailing list.

Lisa: Okay, Emerging Sciences Foundation. Read some of Gopi Krishna’s works. But, you know, that was all through 2019. So early 2020, when we were all having to go sit in our homes.

Rick: Bunker in our bunkers.

Lisa: I sat with this, the whole Kundalini awakening thing that everybody was saying that I had had. And I thought, you know, I set out to regenerate my consciousness. So whatever the world is calling it, I’m looking at it as consciousness regeneration. And I’m going to emphasize that a number of times. It’s kind of important. So as I began to research, and by research Rick, by this time, the wisdom that is coming through you, you put a call out to the universe and things just, the very next day, you know, things would show up on the internet, right? You know how it is. It’s just, it was phenomenal. And the pace then, the development along the way of my understanding of what had actually happened to me physiologically, started to unfold very very quickly. And one of the first things that I heard was, I guess there was a week-long seminar by Unify the World. And yeah, there were just like 15. It’s kind of like the shift network or something like that, where they had some of it in the background, until – I don’t know, I happen to be lifting weights or something like that. And in the background was this gentleman with white hair and white beard and mustache, a very older gentleman. And he began speaking about the importance of the peak bliss experience. And I’m like, “What?” You know, so I tune in and he’s going on about the physics of bliss, the physics of kundalini. He’s actually saying these words, the physics of bliss, right? And the importance of compassion and intention. All these things that I experienced that led up to… what led up to the regeneration, I’ll call it, right? And as I studied, his name is Dan Winter, and as I studied Dan Winter’s physics, which – look, I’ve only ever had high school biology and chemistry, and that was some, a few decades ago, several decades ago. So when it came to trying to study physics, I did have to engage a young man from Hawaii. Thank you, Jason, for helping me to to unpack a lot of the physics within a relatively short period of time. But bottom line, I’ll make it really simple, if I may, because I think a lot of this will circle back around bringing, I think, some practical foundation to what we’re calling this kundalini life energy. And there’s a lot of mystery around it, okay? But if I could just explain what was happening, and it’s a page taken from – can we see this?

Rick: Yes, and we can see that, and I am also going to put that, I mean, I’m going to link to that document you sent me, and that also can, that document contains that graphic, so people will be able to see it better. Yeah.

Lisa: yeah, but if I can, I’ll just put it over to the side here, okay? So in general, we’re a lot, a lot of us are living in fear, and we have a plasma, a light plasma body. It’s termed sometimes the biofield, it’s termed sometimes aura. But it’s a conscious light body that surrounds our physical body, and when we’re living in fear, it’s definitely contracted. And we all know, I think, by now what it means to be living in fear, these lower levels of consciousness that generate negative human emotion, warring at each other, killing each other, right? It’s just a very contracted way of living and working with our energy, and I didn’t know any of this. I was definitely living in fear for then what I learned when I stated my intention to know God, I was done with human suffering, my own in particular, right? But others, there were many, many things happening to my family and friends in particular around this gorgeous lake I lived on, that in the past, Rick, I would probably just say, “Well, that’s life, you know, that’s the ups and downs of life, that we all have our problems, right?” But I began to look at the situations that my family and friends were experiencing, and I began to bring the compassion for what was happening into my heart, and I did start to feel some real love for my brethren. And then somewhere along the way, somebody passes me, and this is the first time I had met this Regina, right? Regina Dawn Akers, the Holy Spirit’s interpretation of the New Testament. After only a three-month contemplation of that beautiful writing, my energy had expanded. I began to know and identify, identification with something other than your small self really helps to prompt, some new beginnings and some expansion in your consciousness. Remember, your consciousness is not just what you feel is in your mind, right? We experience consciousness, but it’s actually a lot of this, the orc, the Taurus, right, going on around you, right, and you’re expanding your consciousness. I’m beginning to know myself as, through the Regina’s teaching, as divine love and divine peace. Divine peace is actually, there is even physics. Dan Winters has written up physics as to what is happening in the heart when we bring in compassion and we find peace in our hearts for everything that is going on around us, no matter if there are wildfires going on or earthquakes or…

Rick: …presidential elections…

Lisa: …stuff like that. But the peace in your heart becomes like that Teflon I spoke about, right? And as I continued to contemplate for about three months and see myself, identify myself, as “I am divine peace, I am divine love”, we start to generate the heart-brain coherence. So the heart has opened up, and the 20 years of heart palpitation that I had been experiencing because I was over here in fear, I would say within two or three days after about the three months, but I was finally feeling like, “hey, this heart palpitation that I had every single day for 20 years are gone. Gone!” Threw out my meds, ripped up my appointment card with the cardiologist, and that was eight years ago. So… seven, whatever. But you can see why the importance of the HeartMath Institute, right, has, there’s such an emphasis on the heart-brain coherence. And if we’re in fear, we’ll never perhaps get to a point where we have this heart-brain coherence. Each of us have a choice to do this individually, right? But as a human race, unless we can all find the peace in our hearts, right, will we ever arrive at a place where we have the heart-brain coherence, which then, once we get to heart-brain coherence, we can get to what we call the universal cosmic coherence. I began to… so after I took up Regina’s teaching, learned myself as the peace and love of God, then I took up the Minds Silent Partner. Minds Silent Partner, the pamphlet that was written in the early 1900s by Dr. James Porter Mills, right, and in there – so Regina’s teaching divine peace and love of God – he’s talking about our omniscience and infinite and eternal nature. So as I’m contemplating my infinite and eternal nature, these larger, more cosmic waves, the wave mechanics, quantum wave mechanics, are entering into my aura, and they’re rising up. Notice the concentration of energy in my head, or in, you know, in this picture, it’s true. My head felt like it was about ready to explode. It was, whereas it was stuck here in the heart chakra area, it was definitely stuck here in the seventh chakra area, right. But as I continued, again, these waves are conscious waves and they are – it’s conscious light that’s entering into your auric field – and they are highly intelligent, highly knowing, they’re all-knowing waves. This is the, what we call the faith that comes into you, that gives you the confidence, no matter how you’re feeling, gives you the confidence to continue your practice, right, no matter what is going on. And so eventually, that’s what happened that evening when I sat down on the bed, eventually, and I tossed Ramana’s book across the room, eventually it’s going to implode – is actually the physics term, right, the physics terms for what had happened to me physiologically. There’s a lot more physics and I explain it a bit in the paper, not too much, just enough for, you know, us laymen, as citizen scientists, to be able to explain what is happening during what is termed a kundalini awakening, a spiritual awakening with all this energy. It’s really quite simple. I didn’t know any of this. I was at the state of fear. All I knew was to surrender and all this was happening. And the universe, I say the universe, right, is bringing to me all the books, you know. Somebody passed me Regina’s New Testament interpretation, a way of mastery woman, right, she’s about 85 years old. She said, she said, “Hey, what’s happening to you?” I I said, “I’d love to read the Bible, but I can’t understand it”. She says, “Here, have this”. Boom, within three months, you know, I go from, I go from fear to love because somebody passed me a book and I I was open and receptive to reading that. And I have to give thanks to the boys like Braden, Greg Braden and Bruce Lipton for helping to open my mind and to consider to update my science and look at quantum theory and what is really going on when we speak at our physical world in terms of you know, the quantum mechanics, the quantum wave mechanics, because that really helps to loosen the mind from these physical objects and especially our bodies when we know that we’re 99.9% not physical matter, then what is that? What is all that? What is all that beautiful gorgeousness stuff, right, that is right here, right here at our disposal for our use for our own, in my case, regeneration. And we’ll talk a little bit more about that in just a second because regeneration is a little bit more than just having this physical, this spiritual experience. But for our actual health and well-being, it boils down to once your energy is cleared, once you’ve identified yourself not only with the divine peace and love that we are, you identify yourself as a divine creature, right, that can be fully aware. It grows, it’s a consciousness, it’s kind of an evolution, if it came into my body all at once, I’d probably blow up, right, but you become, you come up, become aware of your omniscient, infinite and eternal nature and those things that are associated with our omnipresence, right, the omnipresence of consciousness. And that’s a whole other issue, you’ve probably, you know, talked to about people just on the science of consciousness alone, but, you know, I moved on even from the science of consciousness, I learned early on that, or accepted in my practice early on, that consciousness is not a product of the brain. It’s primordial, it is primordial, it is the substratum of the entire universe. So once we accept that into our minds, – and it’s kind of hard for materialist scientists to, to try to accept that, right – but once we accept it as primordial, boy, things really take off, because we’ve now put consciousness in its proper place. And consciousness – and I’ll use the terms God, universe, consciousness, higher self – I’ll say all are the same thing and operating on energies that we call wave mechanics, we call it, we can call it kundalini, we can call it holy spirit, chi, okay. So these are the things that I’ve learned since I’ve started studying Dan Winter’s science. Nassim has a similar, Nassim Harrison, Harim, has a similar physics, but to be able to know, it’s the knowledge that’s coming, that is starting to take the mystery, not starting to – that’s kind of one of my aims – to help to take the mystery, demystify what’s going on around us, and to break free of what would appear to be objects, even just our own body object, and look at it from an entirely different perspective, and giving you the self-empowerment that we need to establish our own well-being, our own mental health, and our own physical health, through knowing. Through knowing what it is that we truly are, what is our true nature, right, our true nature, so I wanted to go through that, that’s a very important piece of the whole picture.

Rick: Yeah, good. One thing I want to point out here, if it’s not obvious to people, is that, you know, you have a nice balance of experience and understanding, and I think that’s really important. Like you said a few minutes ago, the understanding gave you the sort of conviction to keep going. Understanding can also give a person the motivation to even start, and understanding can also enable a person to realize that they’re finished, although I don’t know if there is any such thing as an ultimate finishing, but one can actually be having a high state of enlightenment and not realize it, because there’s some gap or some doubt in the understanding. And that can be cleared up, and then that can completely shift one’s whole orientation. So, you know, some people are top heavy on the knowledge without much experience, and some people emphasize on the experience side but don’t have much understanding about it. And either way is a less assured way of progressing on the spiritual path. It’s much more prone to downfalls and sidetracks and stuff like that. So if understanding and experience are kept balanced, then they enrich one another, they support, reinforce one another, and it’s really conducive to spiritual evolution.

Lisa: Well, what I’d like to say about that, Rick – I guess I was lucky that, fortunate, that I’ve always been pretty single- focused, and that I don’t get too distracted. I’ve, you know, started jobs in the corporate world and, you know, get an agenda and go at it. I started my own companies, and there’s just a focus, a goal-orientation, right? And when I set out to know God, and again, it’s right here, all of the power that we have, all the all the omniscience, if I say, even the inspiration is all here within us. And when we go and declare something, right. For me, I sat, I I finally found Mind’s Silent Partner, and all I did was, was those meditations. I never went to other sources, right? I never scattered my attention, if you will, and the more that I focused my attention on just these specific meditations, right – I call them contemplations – I couldn’t meditate. That energy had risen up into my head. There was no meditating. It was just contemplating, and what I would do is I would take a passage, and I was living on a lake, and I’d go kayak and just contemplate this stuff in shimmering lake water. We’d build bonfires, and I’d just stare into a bonfire for for hours just contemplating these passages, and I could actually feel shifts in my consciousness, the righteousness, as the heart-brain coherency was working. They called it a dual generator, the dual generator when the heart and brain are working in total coherence, and if we stick to, if we focus our attention inward and stay within without any distractions, no TV, no magazines, even with the music – I love classic rock, but I put away that playlist and downloaded only electronic music without words because all the songs that I would listen to from the 60s and emotions and memories. So I just put all that aside and just move forward with some new just electronic only music, which by the way, I understand binaural beat kinds of things have an effect on. The binaural beats have an effect on, you know, these all of these vibrations going on.

Rick: Yeah, let me just add that next week I’m going to be interviewing Eben Alexander, and I’ve been reading his latest book, and I didn’t know much about binaural beats, but he talks about a lot in that book, and he also mentions a number of things that you’ve been mentioning, so just for those listening, you might want to catch that one too. Binaural beats, in fact, seems to be his main spiritual practice. He’s the guy who wrote “Proof of Heaven”, who had a near-death experience, he was a neurosurgeon who had a near-death experience and was in a coma for a week, and anyway, don’t want to get off on that too much, but okay, keep going.

Lisa: Yeah, where do we want to take this next?

Rick: Well, we have a number of things. I mean, I read your paper and I took some main points on it, which are interesting, and you also have a six-point thing, six steps or points that we can talk about. So we’ll do that, but one thing I just want to sort of loop back on is the one-pointedness of your focus. I mean, you just mentioned it, but I think that’s really important, and it’s something that Ramana, Nisargadatta, and others all talked about in terms of, and Papaji all talked about in terms of their own spiritual development. They just kind of like grabbed on to spirituality like a pit bull on the pant leg of opportunity, to quote George W. Bush, and didn’t let go, and it was that one-pointed focus and determination.

Lisa: Yeah, it’s that inward focus.

Rick: Yeah, in fact, a lot of spiritual teachers.

Lisa: I mean, you don’t see books or TV or music, you know, that’s nowhere in this graph. Our attention is focused inward, and if we can learn to do that, we’re going to have very very quick results.

Rick: Yeah, so many references to it. A lot of spiritual teachers have said that the desire for God is in itself the most effective means of reaching God.

Lisa: It’s the intention, yeah.

Rick: Patanjali in the Yoga Sutras talks about mild, medium, intense, and vehemently intense in terms of one’s determination.

Lisa: I was the other one.

Rick: So it’s an important, probably the most important variable in terms of the speed with which one progresses.

Lisa: Going to the six points that I make in my paper, setting attention is intention, is number two, and I only put it as number two because I do think it’s very important, number one, for folks to update their science. A lot of us, our age, even younger, I spoke to a 40-year-old woman. I’m 60. I talked to a 40-year-old woman, and she’s still operating. They’re still teaching, you know, in high school biology and chemistry and physics. There’s no science of consciousness, and in the physics, they really don’t get down to the fact that, you know, that we’re 99.9% non-physical, right? I mean, the kids are just wanting to get through the physics classes. That’s if they’re going into engineering, I guess, right? But physics isn’t taught at the level that it should be, or let’s say, in the context of your own personal development, right? So I say number one is update your science.

Rick: Well, as you know, the materialist paradigm holds that we live in a material world and the brain creates consciousness. And that’s completely, you know, asked backwards in terms of the way the universe actually works. And… go ahead.

Lisa: Yeah, in fact, one of the first things that I did notice during the bliss period, as I started to look around, that was one of the first phrases that I said. I’m like, “Oh my god, everything is upside down. Everything is upside down. Man has it all backwards. Man does not realize that his consciousness is the one thing he should be paying all of his attention to, at least until he awakens himself.

Rick: Did you see my interview with Mark Gober?

Lisa: No, sir, I didn’t.

Rick: I have his book behind me on the shelf there. I couldn’t quite reach it without pulling out wires and stuff, but he wrote a book called “The End to Upside-Down Thinking”.

Lisa: Okay, there you go.

Rick: He was a young fellow. He was like chairman or captain of the tennis team at Princeton, and then he got to Wall Street and was really successful in that arena. But after a while, he just began to wonder, you know, I don’t know, these ideas began to dawn on him, and he just plunged into it and wrote this really good book that’s a nice synopsis of evidence that consciousness is fundamental and matter secondary.

Lisa: Yeah, and I would suggest to anybody who has any doubt about that, just take that plunge. Make that assumption and move on to number two. That’s kind of what I did. I was like, “Okay, why don’t I just make… actually the James Porter Mills book, Mind Silent Partner, pretty much established that as a premise, right?

Rick: And even if a person doesn’t feel much orientation to science, I mean, the main point about your point number one, which is update your science, is gain an understanding, gain a vision of possibilities that the universe, the world, is not what it appears to be, and that there’s actually something much more profound, and you are capable of achieving it. And once you get that conviction, then you can set about how to achieve it.

Lisa: I mean, I read a few of, well, probably all of Greg Brayden’s books and Bruce Lipton’s, and talks about epigenetics and a couple books on it. So, there were no classes. I didn’t take any physics classes. It was just a very general, right, easing into flipping things around, right? So, updating your science doesn’t require you go back to college, right? Just read a few things that are out there. And then, and setting your intention. You know, the intention, like you said, is number one, and my intention was, again, I was always pretty single-focused to begin with. So when I set the intention to know God, know and understand. I’m speaking to myself. When I go out and I state the intention, right, just because I’m here doesn’t mean this stuff isn’t here. It’s just that I’m just not consciously aware of it. I’m not consciously aware of it. I’m still in fear. I’m still in fear. So, it’s still there. Your higher self is part of yourself. It’s always there. Did you see on my Facebook, I posted a dog wagging his tail.

Rick: I actually shared that to my Facebook. Go ahead.

Lisa: I forget what it says.

Rick: It says the thing you’ve been chasing all along is part of you, or something like that.

Lisa: Yeah, the thing that you’ve been chasing. The higher self is God. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s like it’s right here. It’s been a part of you all along. So, it’s true. So, when you go and declare an intention, you’re not talking to some man on the moon. You’re talking to yourself and your self knows whether you are 100% emphatic or if there’s any level of doubt. You know, it’s not going to take you where you want to go or it’s going to develop a path for you that is less than a direct path. So, if your intention isn’t pure, expect that you probably might be spending a few more months, a few more…

Rick: …lifetimes?

Lisa: however much time it takes before your intention is as pure as it could possibly be. You want to know God. You want to… I mean, most people don’t, even scientists perhaps, you want to know your higher self. You want to embody only truth, perhaps whatever statement it makes. If you are just like I was, done with human suffering, not just my own, but much suffering that was going on directly around me with my family and friends. Yeah, it was pretty clear. There was no doubt, obviously.

Rick: Yeah, and I would suggest that, you know, you do have to be true to your own nature and tendencies. So, a person shouldn’t feel like a loser or something if they want to watch television or go to the movies or have a nice meal or you know.

Lisa: I still play golf.

Rick: Yeah, you still play golf, you like and stuff like that. So, we don’t have to become fanatics. And sometimes if a person starts really straining, you know, “I’m going to get enlightened in a week or bust”, then they end up flipping back in the other direction and you know.

Lisa: That won’t happen because this life in this, I’ll call it higher self, will take you on a path and will have circumstances and things unfold for you at your own pace. It knows everything about you.

Rick: Yeah, that’s a good point.

Lisa: So yeah, yeah. I… it does. It knows everything about you. It’s almost like your entire soul, your entire being from the day you were born is written in these vibrations, right? So it knows what’s best for you.

Rick: There’s a saying – I don’t know whether it’s from the Yoga Sutras or where – but it’s the means collect around sattva and sattva could be interpreted as purity or purity of intention. And like, you know, like you said, you had that intention and then all of a sudden this book shows up. We had an experience a few years ago where the guy who had been doing our video post-production for many years – very much appreciation to him – had done it long enough and he said you should really find somebody else and somebody who’s really into the content, you know. And before we even really put the word out, within a couple of days someone named Angel Markloid, who had been listening to BatGap for years, felt the impulse to get in touch with those and say, “Hey, would you like to somebody to do the video post- production?” So it was perfect, you know, she’s been doing a great job. But that’s the kind of thing, I mean, you know, it was far more than some random coincidence.

Lisa: No such thing as coincidence, Rick. There are certain words that don’t even enter into my vibration anywhere, I’ll say, right? My vocabulary, yeah. No such thing as coincidence and, you know, I’ll even go so far – we’ll talk about this in just a second – you know, disease does not enter my consciousness anymore. It does not exist for me in my consciousness. Do I experience some things? Yes, but we’ll talk about this at the end because I’d like to wrap this up with what we call self-healing.

Rick: Okay, before we get into what we’re going to do next, let me interject a couple of questions that came in. One is from Claire in Birmingham, England.

Lisa: Hi, Claire.

Rick: She said, I’m going to actually ask her a question and then I’m going to embellish it a bit. She said, “I missed the start. Did you mention the name of the work you based your exploration on?” That was the Mills guy, right?

Lisa: James Porter Mills, Mind’s Silent Partner.

Rick: I can even link to that from your BatGap page. And then her second part is, “What does it mean to be told one has an active kundalini?” And I’d like to add to her question by saying, what if a person feels they don’t have an active kundalini? “I have an idea what kundalini is, but I don’t seem to be having any kundalini experiences. What’s wrong with me?” – I mean, what would you say to that kind of person?

Lisa: Well, that’s interesting. It’s one of the topics of discussions that I’ve had a little bit with Emerging Sciences Foundation. One of the… I think is a myth, that this kundalini energy stays dormant at the base of our spine until it decides to rise. I’m like, I’m probably going to call that perhaps something we need to probably look into and maybe drop that as something, as a belief. Kundalini is a, I feel – I’ve studied it enough, I’ve experienced it enough – is our life energy. How is it staying dormant in the base of our body when, in essence, it really is the energies that are all around us, right? At all times.

Rick: Yeah, but like the little guy on the left that, you know, hasn’t, the fear guy, I mean, obviously his energies are…

Lisa: Still alive.

Rick: …still alive, but his energies are dormant. So his light is being hit under a bushel, so to speak.

Lisa: Well, I kind of… like I said, I’ve been talking to emerging sciences and some other people about this, that if it’s our life energy, it may just be stuck. For me, it was stuck in my third chakra, my third, you know, third area here, manifesting as heart palpitations. I think as we mature, as we age from an infant, that energy is maybe in that root chakra. And as we go about, you know, adolescence, it’s rising up into the second chakra. As we develop these external relationships and work relationships and expand our, you know, relationships outside of ourselves to other people, other things, it’s in our third chakra area. So I just kind of wonder this notion that we have that it’s stuck in our root chakra area all this time until it decides to rise. What’s keeping us alive? What’s beating my heart? Right?

Rick: I think that… yeah, I think that someone like Bonnie Greenwell or Joan Harrigan or somebody would have a good answer for that, and I wouldn’t be able to answer it as well as they, but I think that they would acknowledge that, yeah, this energy, it’s not like it’s totally locked down and nothing trickles upward. But, you know, people go through their whole lives without having it really blossom to the extent that it could in all the higher chakras.

Lisa: I don’t know. Again, I, you know, I studied the kundalini for for a while, for that year, that first year after the three years of bliss, and I had to go back to my original practice and look at that quite seriously as, you know, what I was trying to do was regenerate my consciousness, which boom, took that energy all the way up through my crown chakra, you know, eventually.

Rick: Yeah, but that doesn’t happen to most people. It happened to you because you’re really cooking, you know, and you had this intense desire and staring at the wall for six hours at a time, but most people just go through life without anything like that happening.

Lisa: Perhaps then we need to be looking at this kundalini as a very very powerful energy. I call it life energy. Again, I’m trying to demystify it that it is our… it’s through it we can evolve ourselves, evolve our consciousness. And if we don’t know this, perhaps it is going to get stuck in one of the lower chakras.

Rick: Perfect. I think that’s what every, all the people have been saying all these, you know, millennia. Everyone says it’s there. I mean, kingdom of heaven is within you, and all the yogis, and everybody else says, yes, you have this tremendous latent untapped source of power that lies within, whatever, however they describe it. But the point is to tap it, and most, the vast majority of humanity doesn’t really do that significantly. And hopefully we’re in a time now where it’s proliferating more and more.

Lisa: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we’re getting out, and to…

Rick: Something in the atmosphere, so to speak.

Lisa: It’s everywhere, right? Hopefully to, again, demystify it and take a lot of the lore out of it. I mean, you can really, really get stuck, I think, if you consider to, not consider, but continue to believe that this is some mysterious, what do you call it, feminine goddess energy.

Rick: Yeah, with four arms or whatever. Yeah, we need to bring science into it.

Lisa: Yeah, that’ll… I mean, my husband doesn’t want to get feminine. He’s like, I, you know…

Rick: He’s a construction guy.

Lisa: So, I mean, it’ll… just our perception of what this beautiful life energy is, I think, is a very big stumbling block. So, it’s time to bring that…

Rick: Yeah. That’s a very good point.

Lisa: …that drama.

Rick: Very good point, and that’s true of not only Kundalini, but all aspects of spirituality and consciousness and everything else. I think it would be tremendously important, and it’s happening more and more and more, for a marriage of science and spirituality to take place, in which each enriches the other, and believe me, both of them have tremendous value to offer the other. And I think, you know, I don’t know when, but sooner or later, we won’t see a dichotomy between them. We’ll have a sort of a body of knowledge and experience that incorporates the best of them both, and both will have evolved significantly because of that interaction.

Lisa: Well, I like to say that, you know, and in the beginning, and even at the end of the little video that I made, the clip is, there’s a link of it in that paper that you’ll post that link. And in the video, which I made about a year ago, I say, “I’m here to help bridge the gap between science and spirituality”. If I were to restate that right now, I would say, “There is no bridge between here and here. There is no bridge. We are it. We are all that is. We are sovereign beings. We are sovereign beings”.

Rick: You just have to realize it.

Lisa: Yeah.

Rick: This is a good time to ask this question that came in from Jan Ringelstein in Germany. “I can relate very much to Lisa’s experience and have had something similar. I think it would be very important for people like us to talk to each other and share our feelings, maybe using Zoom or Skype meetings. Are there any groups who are doing this, or how do you find like-minded people?”

Lisa: Thanks, Rick. You’re this.

Rick: And there is a BatGap Facebook group where people get into all kinds of conversations about such things. I don’t know how many members we have now. I think over 11,000 or something. So there’s that, but you know, she brings up a good point. People could organize something like that. I mean, somebody could post in that Facebook group, “Hey, let’s have a Zoom meeting with each other”, and somebody could just organize it and have it. And… go ahead, what are you saying?

Lisa: Just feel free to friend me and, you know, we’ll strike up conversation. I’m very open now. This is my first interview that I’ve done officially. I’ve had several conversations, but this is the first one officially. So let’s run with it. I call it the shareable wave right now, right?

Rick: And there are conferences, like you mentioned, the Emerging Sciences Foundation, and then there’s the Galileo Commission, and a bunch of – and there’s like the SHIFT Network – and a bunch of things where people… and the Science and Non-duality Conference. So people do have these Zoom things, but there’s usually, in most of those, not a lot of opportunity for everyone to share and speak and interact. So, you know, but informally it wouldn’t be too hard to set something like that up.

Lisa: Nope.

Rick: Wouldn’t have to cost anything or anything.

Lisa: Yeah, you want to finish up the six points?

Rick: Yes.

Lisa: Or do you have another question?

Rick: Hang one second. Irene just sent me a joke about our dog. Yes, go ahead and finish up the six points.

Lisa: Is it that dog with the wagging tail? Was that your dog in that Facebook post?

Rick: No, but we have a dog that’s that one of my… you mentioned you like some group that’s something puppy.

Lisa: Oh, the sick puppy.

Rick: The group I really like called Snarky Puppy. So, we have a group, a dog that’s kind of like a Snarky Puppy and like… he’s a Chiweenie he’s called. He can get really snarky and so his name is Theo and I know I’m going to read it anyway. Irene says, “Theo says he he has a kundamini”. All right, let’s get serious. Let’s go back to our points. We got to stay focused. Forever gonna.

Lisa: I kind of like that humor. That’s good. Yeah, so setting the intention, right? And for me it was very emphatic. Number three, then claim your true identity. This is a very, very big piece. Claim your true identity. You’re not the individual with your relationships in the world and your work, you know, you know how it is the the mother, the brother, the sister, the the manager of the company or whatever. These are very worldly things, right? But your true identity, which perhaps we have yet to claim, right, is we are omniscient being. At least it worked for me. At first it was “I am divine love. I am divine peace”. And began to see myself in a different light altogether. What is the light of consciousness, right? I began to see myself in a different light altogether. And again experiencing beautiful physiological changes within my body just by recognizing myself as the divine peace and love of God. Right? Oh my god. And then when I began to identify instead with even more intense frequencies, I’ll say, my omniscience, infinite and eternal nature. When you sit with that for a while and it doesn’t take a long time before an identity starts to rise up within you that virtually leaves you with… left me with the the feeling that “heck I’m I’m universal being with unlimited potential”. You know there’s nothing can stop me from being able to do what I desire to do. There’s nothing outside of myself that is any more important than who and what I am from an infinite and an eternal perspective. And so that’s why I say claim it. You must claim it and remember you’ve got all this higher self all around you. It hears you and when you go out and claim yourself as infinite and eternal, guess what? You’re going to match up with these very cosmic wave mechanics that are going to come in – very intelligent all-knowing all powerful wave mechanics – that will enter into your conscious aura, right, and begin to do its works if you will on your consciousness raising your consciousness. Remember and I say it in the paper you’re not – and Ramana says this other spiritual say it as well – you’re not the one doing the work here. When a woman gets pregnant she’s not making the baby. She’s watching tv and cooking dinner. The baby is being made by the creator, right? Likewise all I had to do was claim my identity set my attention, claim my identity, and the work is being done for you. There’s nothing that we have to do.

Rick: Let me ask you a couple questions on that. One is with regard to identity, would it be true to say that – you might say I’ll pretend I’m you, well I’m Lisa and I live in Colorado and I like to play golf and I like to go fly fishing and I like to hike and you know those are some things about my life. But those are just the tip of the iceberg, those are just one little wave and you know what I really am ultimately is this ocean and yet it’s not to say I’m not a wave. I am a wave but I’m more fundamentally an ocean, and both are true. Would that be a fair way of describing it?

Lisa: How about we do this? The I am is a pure statement of being that is infinite and eternal and unchanging and I am divine love, I am the peace of God, I am the universe. I like to golf right? I have family, I love my relationships. But I am is the purest statement of being, it’s a declaration of your true identity, your true nature.

Rick: So how about if we think of it this way – we’re sense organs of the infinite we’re organs of action of the infinite and the infinite enjoys playing a little golf through this particular sense organ.

Lisa: yeah

Rick: He likes skiing through that sense organ or he or she… I got in trouble the other week for referring to the infinite in a masculine gender, somebody from Berkeley gave me hell on it.

Lisa: No, it was Alan Watts who would call us the apertures. We’re the apertures of the the one infinite creator, just little sense organs.

Rick: And if you think about the whole universe all the galaxies and stars and all the beings who live on all those galaxies and so on, they’re all just the infinite variety of sense organs of the one universal being.

Lisa: All the forms that we see, all the objects that we see – we are one conscious being, being conscious, right? And we are not this separate self. Ricky, you’ve heard all this, right?

Rick: Yeah but it’s nice to articulate it.

Lisa: Yes we’re not this separate self, right? I am… if I go around saying I am Lisa, I am a wife, I am… I’ll never get to my true nature, and the I am statement of being which actually is… there’s a beautiful 10 pages of Mind’s Silent Partner from Dr. James Porter Mills that speaks very eloquently to the I am statement of being. And when you’re using that you are really waking up. Let’s go back to this picture. When you say I am, these little guys out here are taking notice – that’s the I am.

Rick: I heard a great story the other night from Swami Sarvapriyananda. He was talking about Swami Sivananda, I believe it was. He was a disciple of of Swami Vivekananda, who was a disciple of Sri Ramakrishna. And anyway he had some serious health problems – he had asthma and stuff – and sometimes he couldn’t sleep because he couldn’t breathe if he went to sleep. And so one night he was awake most of the night. He was very uncomfortable and in the morning one of his disciples said “how are you doing sir?” and he said “oh, I’m great, I’m marvelous”, and the disciple said “oh, but we heard that you were really suffering and you’re awake all night”. And he said “oh, you mean my body? Yeah that’s in bad shape, it was a bad night for my body”.

Lisa: I’ve had many of those, I’ve had many of those, yeah.

Rick: So before we go on to the next point, let me just slip in a little question here that came in, because I’d like to get them in. This is from Melissa in Brisbane Australia. I’m getting people all over the world today. “Has your diet changed since this profound spiritual experience and if so how, and does it contribute to expansion of consciousness?”

Lisa: My diet has not changed, I still drink beer when I play golf, I still eat meat, I… there were a couple things that I do more of – I drink a heck of a lot more water mainly because I think I moved to Colorado. But remember, what we’re dealing with here is not our physical nature, what we call our physical nature. What we’re dealing with here is of a mental nature – mind, consciousness, wave mechanics. And even Ramana Maharshi will say this I’d you know… no, we do not have to, we really do not have to… it helps a lot to for us physically to feel better, so that perhaps a meditative or contemplative session might go more comfortably. I honestly…. if you’re drinking three glasses of wine a night, you’re probably gonna go to sleep before any effects of meditation take place. So… I think once again check within, right? You’ll know and but I know… thanks for the question. I didn’t do anything at all to alter my diet at all.

Rick: okay good, and if you ever are supposed to – I imagine you’ll be inclined to – and you probably don’t have to worry about it too much. It’ll happen if it happens.

Lisa: oh I get messages

Rick: Yeah, so before we go off of point three – claim your true identity – people have been listening to us, and and I’m sure that for most people these concepts are not new that you have this oceanic consciousness and being, and that’s who you really are and all that stuff. So for someone listening who doesn’t really experience that – they just understand it intellectually – how exactly did they claim it, and what difference will claiming it make?

Lisa: I guess because it became so evident to me after when I read those in the beginning of the book – James Porter Mills’s book Mind Silent Partner – it became so clear to me that the I am statement of being is a crucial, a critical piece that we have to break the mind free from our old concept of ourselves. So Rick if you wanted to become a concert pianist and start taking piano lessons, you probably might get there a lot quicker if you in your mind – and this is not just affirmation that’s going on – but if in your mind you accept yourself as a concert pianist, guess what’s going to happen – you’re probably going to get there a lot quicker instead of fumbling through lessons and going to teachers and you just emphatically declare yourself as I am… just like Tiger Woods did “I will be the number one golfer, I am the number one golfer in the world”.

Rick: Sure it’s… you’re not going to just…

Lisa: Very very powerful statement.

Rick: you’re not just going to end up… there was… I think it was Horowitz – someone came up to him in on the street in New York City and said “how do you get to Carnegie Hall?” and he said “practice, practice, practice”.

Lisa: I would say to… and this is where the Ramana’s self-inquiry practice comes from, and we’d call it self-inquiry. He uses the question “who am I”. What it does is, it turns the mind right back on itself, there’s no outward projection. Every time you have a thought, a thought about anything in the outer world, the self-inquiry practice “who am I” brings your attention right back to center “I am. Who am I? I am”. That’s why that practice is so very powerful.

Rick: yeah

Lisa: “I am” – we’re not even meditating on an object out there, right? That’s the difference between meditation and self-inquiry, you just… and that’s really what I was doing when I was establishing myself as “I am omniscient, infinite, eternal”, right? So it was the same practice as self-inquiry and my mind is not out there even meditating on anything in the objective world. So I learned of the power of it through the Mind Silent Partner pamphlet. I bought into it and did it, and it seemed to really accelerate my attention and my focus. And there’s a lot of physics with regards to the power of attention and what is happening to us Piezoelectrically I think is the word, okay? There’s a lot of physics behind our power of attention. In fact in every single now moment and you know this – we only ever have the now moment. There’s the past and the future but we only ever have in this now moment, and in this now moment where is your attention? Because that’s all you have really in this now moment. Where is your attention? Here? Or like 99% of the population, everywhere else? But you you want to awaken quickly, establish your true identity the “I am”? Keep your attention focused inward and watch what happens. Watch all that beautiful, high-powered, highly intelligent, knowledgeable energy that’s around us start to flow through you very very very quickly.

Rick: There’s a great verse in the Gita it goes “for many branched and endlessly diverse are the intellects of the irresolute, but the resolute intellect is one-pointed”.

Lisa: Yeah yeah, there you go. The thing, let that I be seen all right,

Rick: And the whole body will be full of light. And then of course there’s Nisargadatta who said “my guru told me that I am the self, I am pure being, and I believed him and I just stuck to that conviction”, and within about three years he fully realized it.

Lisa: Yeah yeah, beautiful all right, beautiful.

Rick: So let’s go on to point four

Lisa: Okay Surrender – big big one for me, and again it goes back to some of the kundalini symptoms that that we spoke about earlier, especially with the one question there… especially for me I knew nothing about the inner world, I knew nothing about the inner world. I my attention was entirely in with the objective world, and so I had a lot of a lot of blockages. And so when I began the practices, the energy was surfacing in certain ways, and if there’s any resistance whatsoever if I didn’t come across the art of surrender – and actually believe it or not, when I when I came to know myself as the peace and love of god through Regina Dawn Akers’ New Testament interpretation. I also latched on to… she had also written this little pamphlet called The Teachings of Inner Ramana. She too just embraced Ramana Maharishi’s teachings, read through them. They’re very kind of difficult, a lot of Sanskrit terminology, a lot of Hindu terminology. But through contemplation and a lot of help from Ramana type energy, she ended up scribing – she calls it scribing – The Teachings of Inner Ramana, and in it she breaks down what is self-inquiry so that the western mind can understand really what is self- inquiry as well as – and this is cute – what is surrender. And so I read the pamphlet and I’m like so I typed… I ripped out – look at this – I ripped out page 11 or whatever the page is

Rick: Carrying it around in your pocket…?

Lisa: Carrying it around in my pocket for months.

Rick: I think you need to have it laminated.

Lisa: It’s classic isn’t it? It’s just classic. But in here she lists then at different points you know what we can do, what do we mean by surrender, and different things that we can do in every single moment because I was really incapable of doing self-inquiry. But in every single moment how am I to see this, so if something is happening out there like an argument how am I to see that. Let the higher self… let it be perceived in a different perspective. How shall I listen to this? How shall I… some of the… and I’m sorry I’m reading through the ripped paper here, but how should I think? So what you’re doing is you’re observing, you become more the observer of events and circumstances going on on around you. And instead of reacting and you don’t just walk away, what you’re doing is you’re asking your higher self – these higher beautiful energies that are right here at our disposal – how should I be viewing this? What should I take from this, instead of responding. We’re being the observer and letting the higher self then answer the question for us internally. We can walk away – I mean we don’t have to then jump into the argument and say “well my higher self said”. No, the whole practice is to begin to train the mind to, instead of reacting to the external world, that we keep our mind focused, that we’re keeping our mind focused. And the art of surrender especially when we’re dealing with some physiological or even psychological/ psychic kinds of things that are happening, due to this beautiful energy that’s just trying to break through. It really helps when you’re what I call fully surrendered. And every single day I would wake up and surrender myself to God to render surrender, I was fully surrendered to the spirit of God as James Porter Mills would say. What you want to do is get rid of your human race consciousness – it’s very limited and rambling and rustling and – what do they call it – that monkey mind thing, right? And instead fill it with the spirit of life, the type of consciousness that we were meant to and designed to house, a divine consciousness. So I was already pretty much surrendered to what I call the spirit of life l-i-f-e with a capital l, yeah.

Rick: Okay.

Lisa: Yeah, that’s surrendering. It’s a good one and you can practice it all the time in every single moment.

Rick: Yeah, and it doesn’t mean you become passive and you somehow just wait.

Lisa: Oh no, I never…

Rick: I mean some people might think, “well, I’m just going to sit here until I… the spirit moves me to do something like get a job or get out of bed or whatever”.

Lisa: What you’re doing is you’re evolving your consciousness. You’re not responding to the same old story, the same argument, the same situation, the same election, the same stuff – you’re not responding to it. What’s more important, what is lasting and eternal – your consciousness. You’re evolving your consciousness. I’d like to spend 24 hours a day evolving my consciousness

Rick: Yeah. Another way I look at it is that – and you’ve said this today – is that if everything is divine, if everything is is intelligence, if the whole creation is this a play and display of of intelligence, then surrender to an extent means being observant and being kind of cooperative with the play as it unfolds itself, being sensitive to what is unfolding and responding accordingly.

Lisa: Well it’s amazing too Rick, once you’re not participatory in things that no longer serve you they will fall away. They will fall away because you are no longer of that vibration. So either those people in your life are going to fall away. If they’re family members they become more peaceful. We are all one conscious being, so I bring my attention inward. I’m much more peaceful, a heck of a lot less belligerent, let’s say, in response to external situations – family kinds of stuff – going on. The whole family’s become kind of peaceful and it’s… we’re one conscious being, yeah and…

Rick: Yeah, nice.

Lisa: It’s amazing.

Rick: I’ll just quickly throw in a Gita verse for that one too. It’s the objects of sense turn away from him who does not feed upon them but the taste for them persists. On seeing the supreme even this taste vanishes.

Lisa: Yeah yeah yeah yeah beautiful, beautiful. It’s the universe at work for all of us, and when one of us chooses the highest and best good, guess what’s going to happen – the universe is going to allow for that as opposed to anything else that might be going on in that particular circumstance or situation – eventually, it may not happen right away.

Rick: Good point though. Highest first. Okay, point five…

Lisa: what are we talking here?

Rick: Meditate.

Lisa: Oh, meditate. I use the word meditate because a lot of folks know that versus I use contemplation. But it is important to, I think, establish a meditative practice and not for purpose other than to evolve your consciousness. In this case, this is what I was trying to do. I was trying to regenerate my consciousness. So I knew that a practice to continue to keep my attention, focus inward was essential. Anything less than my total attention inward was less than my total attention inward, so a meditative practice – anything that I could do to keep my attention focus inward. There are all kinds of meditative practices, as you well know Rick, just to establish peace of mind, to establish – let’s say just focus your awareness on awareness, beautiful, that helps to really settle the mind. And helps to I think bring into your conscious being some higher frequencies, some higher lovely more cosmic frequencies into your aura. Some people meditate purely for those spiritual experiences, right, being able to have glorious colorful very – what do you say – densely conscious kind of spiritual experiences behind their closed eyes. So meditation serves many many purposes. But I had established a meditation practice – it was contemplation. Contemplation where I would take a passage – a very inspiring passage – and contemplate it for hours, just one passage, contemplate for hours and you’re evolving your consciousness. And so I found that… by what else did I say here… your intent here is to evolve your consciousness, attain liberation. Such meditations are self-dynamizing. I learned that from Aurobindo – if you go to the Aurobindo website talking about how self-dynamizing they are. They are evolving your consciousness, we’re not just playing around or trying to become peaceful, we are evolving our consciousness and will align your consciousness with universal principles. And that’s what I was doing. And I gave a couple of examples in the in the paper here, of some of the most powerful contemplative things that I would take to harden. But again it all comes back down to the level of attention that you’re giving to your inner world.

Rick: And one thing about meditation is that your motivation for doing it may evolve over time. I taught meditation for many years and sometimes people would start because they had high blood pressure or because you know they couldn’t sleep well or because they wanted to have a better golf game. You may remember the book “Golf in the Kingdom” by Michael Murphy. But then you’d see them six months later and and you say “how’s the blood pressure doing or the insomnia?”, and they say “well, that’s okay but now I’m kind of interested in this cosmic consciousness stuff”. So the motivation may change. So it’s kind of… in a way doesn’t matter why you start.

Lisa: Well, you have your higher self’s attention – that’s for sure. That’s why it does evolve. Some people start with yoga thinking they’re just getting some muscular movement. But tell you what you’re doing is you’re settling your energy down, you’re centering your energy. And guess what, starts rising into your consciousness is the higher consciousness. So all of a sudden they find themselves meditating and wanting to do more and more.

Rick: So a question came in relevant to what we’re talking about right now, from Rob in Newburyport Massachusetts. “Could Lisa elaborate more on her approach to contemplation? I have a practice of meditation but I’m dealing with physical suffering that sometimes makes it difficult, so learning more about how Lisa used contemplation would be great”.

Lisa: Well, I did speak to that earlier – find something Rob highly inspired inspirational – meaning it has… um… for me it was abstract concepts as abstract that would help to enlighten and keep my questioning going on. For instance, now I’ll go ahead and read the example that I gave in my paper. It’s just a very short example. One of Mills’s – James Porter Mills’s – from the Mind Silent Partner, one of my favorites was “come forth come now forth thou living word light the offices of my mind, my spirit is thy spirit a wellspring of truth rising up is eternal life within me”. Now, have a sip of wine and think on that while staring into a bonfire and say it.

Rick: Just a sip?

Lisa: Yeah. Just say it over and over and over again in your in your mind and contemplate. Let the mind… I would do it open-eyed. I found myself staring at walls a lot right – bonfires and shimmering lake water, even clouds in the sky – as I continue to contemplate such beautiful inspirational kinds of words. Remember when we use words of truth such as eternal life or omniscience or divine love, the spirit of these words will rise up in your consciousness. You can’t help but to just sit there and want to contemplate more and more. So I would say just find something that works for you, that’s highly inspirational, inspirited from spirit, that really keeps your mind from going back out into the outer world, keeps it focused within.

Rick: And I think something that works for you is the key phrase and different things work for different people, so if something doesn’t work for you find something that does. Something will work. All right, point six – abide.

Lisa: I got that from Ramana. So I mentioned to you I’d never studied any of Ramana’s material, even after taking the eight-week, the six-week course day eight into it where I tossed his book aside because I couldn’t understand a Sanskrit word that was being said. I didn’t understand what he was saying at all and even after the six weeks I’m like… I might get back to that, but I did really embrace in the three-year period even though I stayed inside. I stayed inside myself. I didn’t research the internet what happened to me at all, but I did feel comfortable going and researching some of Ramana’s material. And conscious immortality was one of my favorites – beautiful stuff in conscious immortality for me to continue to contemplate…

Rick: Is that a particular book or something, or is that just one of the concepts?

Lisa: It might be a book but I think it was… No, it was… I think I have it in pdf…

Rick: Oh so there’s a document called conscious immortality.

Lisa: Yes, conscious immortality,

Rick: From Ramana?

Lisa: Yes. It was probably as you well know…

Rick: Excerpted from something?

Lisa: Well, excerpteda and somebody wrote it for him and then was re was translated into english. I forget, it was back in that three-year period of bliss but one of the most… one of the other things that I got kind of attached to – there’s a fellow on facebook, John Wassenberg, and he’ll post little blurbs, little sound bites from Ramana’s… all of his stuff. He has letters, gems… conscious immortality, all kinds of documents. And John Wassenberg will post these beautiful little gems of Ramana. So I allowed myself to expand my learning of Ramana’s teachings outside of self-inquiry and outside of surrender. And that’s where I picked up on the term abidance. And when we look at abidance it just means to persevere. You may get distracted – yeah, I got distracted in fact right before the experience. Rick, I used to own a boat rental business for 15 years – a fleet of boats and jet skis, a houseboat – and you know here I am trying to… and I closed the business down. But I was… I am a boater, but back then on the lake, a very big boater and and I swear for 15 years I never had a problem with with boats – being in and around boats. But darned, if I didn’t slip off my boat and mangle both of my legs below the knee to… where I was rendered I couldn’t do anything but but lay in bed. I was miserable, absolutely miserable. That’s when I signed up for that class because I was like… I couldn’t go anywhere at all, so I’m just going to go ahead and sign up for that class because I was pretty much committed by this time to give it 24/7, right, 24/7. I had gotten to that point, “well, why not? I can’t walk”, And why does that happen, how is it is that higher self sometimes – universe right – that is playing with you, it’s like how do I fall off of a boat I ran a business for 15 years, right?

Rick: Reminds me a lot of Adyashanti’s experience. He was like a competitive bicycle racer and you know the certain and he started getting into spirituality. And at a certain point he found himself flat in bed for a month, six months or something like that, and it was some strange thing and he eventually recovered from it and he started getting better. He started getting back into bicycle racing and then, boom, he’s back in bed. And finally he got the message and…

Lisa: Yeah it is the message and I’ve come to learn that about sickness and illness and injury.

Rick: I’m glad you’re bringing that up because you said you wanted to talk about health and we’re kind of at the end of our time almost, so let’s segue into that now. But what you wanted to say about that?

Lisa: Okay I appreciate that. So the regeneration process that that I grasped and held on to – and they call it the kundalini awakening, spiritual awakening. I called it I regenerated my consciousness back to truth, back to the state it is that we are all born with in the world – pure consciousness and without any conditioning whatsoever. And what I’m learning – and I use the word regeneration – is that there is a whole arena of of regenerative healing, a whole discipline. And I actually have hooked up with a fella by the name of uh Ken Graydon, and the title of the book is too small to put on the camera – Regeneration Healing, self healing. Regeneration healing, and it has to do with being able to… and I think this is what I did with regenerating my consciousness consciousness is omnipresent. What happened yesterday, what is happening in the future is accessible now if you think about… If you studied the science of consciousness enough you know that it is omnipresent, meaning we can go back into the future, right, and bring it forward – like I believe is really what was happening when I went to go regenerate my consciousness. It regenerated the consciousness back to… it’s the truth premise that it was when I was born. So likewise I am working now with Ken and in a group – he has a Facebook group – to try to understand more about this and to be able to self heal. Now that I understand I think the omnipresence of consciousness and being able to affect in the now moment conditions that I may have experienced in the past. They call the Akashic records there is a record of every moment of your life, every moment of yourself somewhere here – where my… I don’t know where I’m pointing to – but the whole idea of being able to self-heal is a… it comes from the omnipresent nature of our consciousness. So it’s a new area for me and I’m really really looking forward to it. And if there’s one more thing I can say about it Rick, is that I truly believe – I truly honestly believe – that the pineal gland which opened up for me during the experience is a critical, absolutely critical, more so than the pituitary gland. The pineal gland is the master gland. It is the gland that enables and allows for our healing and well-being. With the pineal gland obstructed in any way, shape or form, I think this is why we see illness in the world. There was a… I belong to the academy for the advancement of post materialist scientists – you’ve probably interviewed a number of them… Marjorie Woollacott,

Rick:Oh yeah, Marjorie’s great. Dean Radin, others

Lisa: Charles Schwartz, Charles Tart or whatever. And that some of those fellows… Menas

Rick: Menas Kafatos, yes

Lisa: Gorgeous, right? So I joined their group as an affiliate member and they just recently posted something, and I thought “Oh my gosh, what in time… how does that work with the universe?”. Throws out a post for the scientific basis for integrative medicine. Integrative medicine being of course the whole mind body organism and the integration of it, and how essential… This article was posted, or this book was written in 2005 – basis of integrative medicine. There was an article then that summarized the book, posted on the National Institute of Health website, that speaks to the importance of the pineal gland and its master control over our whole immune system. So I say, again going back to one of my purposes to demystify this whole beautiful life energy why aren’t we setting up master classes to open up our pineal glands? Let’s do this thing, there’s no fear. There’s so much mythology and fear. If the pineal gland is so critically important for health and well-being as per something that’s 15 years old, let’s get on it, let’s do that.

Rick: Yeah, there’s a lot of things we need to get on, and I think it’s picking up momentum. There’s more and more people and groups like the ones you’ve mentioned who are just getting on this thing, and I think that the future is potentially very bright because of that upwelling of interest in such things, and you don’t see it on the six o’clock news. So it can be rather depressing to see what people think is going on which is going on, but there’s so much more going on that doesn’t get reported.

Lisa: I think there’s fears there that are unfounded that you know you’re going to open up some psychic abilities that you don’t want. No, once again your higher self, which is right here, knows when your time is ready for whatever it is that you’re supposed to be doing, whatever your soul purpose is. And I have explored psychic abilities, nothing’s come to me. I’ve explored lucid dreaming, I’ve explored astral projection, I’ve explored these things and have attempted to remote view, or even just see with my eyes closed. There are kids nowadays that are born that are able to see with their eyes closed.

Rick: I know I’ve read some stuff like that. Yeah, it’s fascinating stuff.

Lisa: Yeah, interesting. So that’s where I’m headed that’s where I’m headed after… I wanted to do this interview with you Rick, again very much inspired by not only all the work that you’ve done over the past years, God bless. I can’t say enough about Buddha at the gas pump, but because I was inspired by by your interview with Dean, and saying if there’s any way anybody can step forward with some science to try to help out to bridge this gap that I… it’s just one, you know it’s just one. There is no bridge, it’s just… it’s we’re all one, we are all one.

Rick: Yeah well, that’s a good note to end on. And there is so much more – I mean you and I can easily go on for another couple of hours but we’ve given people a taste. And I’ll put up a page on batgap you know as I always do about this interview, and perhaps you could send me links to like some of these books that you’ve held up because people might want to know what they are and I can link to them from that page. And if you want people to be able to get in touch with you how should they do that – through Facebook?

Lisa: Just Facebook

Rick: All right, through Facebook. I’ll put a link to your Facebook page on there. And I’ll put up that paper that you’ve been talking about, and which goes into some more detail about the things we’ve been talking about. So great,

Lisa: Yeah yeah, well, thank you very much. And I really appreciate everybody who’s tuned in live today I really do that makes me feel when….

Rick: Yeah we’ve had quite a few people, it’s up

Lisa: Good good. Thank you everybody, thank you so much, and thank you Rick and Irene. Thanks

Rick: Yeah, thank you Lisa. Thanks to those who’ve been listening or watching and as I mentioned earlier, next week will be Eben Alexander and also his partner Karen Newell, and the week after that Richard Tarnas who’s a cosmologist at the California Institute of Integral Studies and it rolls along. All right, so thanks everybody and we’ll see you for the next one. All right, bye-bye. Thank you.