Summary:
- Background: Theresa Cheung is a UK-based author with a master’s degree from King’s College, Cambridge. She has written numerous spiritual books and comes from a family of spiritualists.
- Spiritual Journey: She discusses her journey of understanding spirituality, the esoteric, and her experiences with doubt and belief.
- Collaboration with Science: Theresa highlights her collaboration with scientists from the Institute of Noetic Sciences and her interest in the scientific study of spirituality.
- Personal Views: She shares her evolving views on spirituality, the afterlife, and angels, emphasizing personal experience and growth over blind belief.
Full transcript:
Rick: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer. Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of interviews with spiritually awakening people. I’ve done nearly 600 of them now. If this is new to you and you’d like to check out previous ones, please go to batgap.com, B-A-T-G-A-P, and look under the past interviews menu. This program is made possible through the support of appreciative listeners and viewers, so if you appreciate it and would like to help support it, there’s a PayPal button on every page of the website, and there’s also a page about other ways to donate if you don’t want to use PayPal. My guest today is Theresa Cheung. Welcome, Theresa.
Theresa: Hello, Rick. Hello.
Rick: Theresa’s in the UK. She says she lives near Windsor Castle, which is not entirely relevant to this interview, but something she told me. She said she did an interview yesterday with some outfit in Australia, right, and they wanted to know about Harry and Meghan the whole time.
Theresa: Ask me to be their royal correspondent.
Rick: Yeah, maybe you missed your calling. Anyway, Theresa was born into a family of spiritualists. She’ll explain what that means. She has a master’s degree from King’s College Cambridge and has written numerous best-selling dream, afterlife, angel, ritual, and spiritual books and encyclopedias, including two Sunday Times top 10 bestsellers. She’s been a guest on Russell Brand’s Under the Skin, which I listened to the other day. That was pretty funny. It must be hard being interviewed by him. He’s like bouncing off the walls.
Theresa: The two of us were bad.
Rick: I’ve listened to a lot of his podcasts. He’s a very funny guy. And also on Coast to Coast AM and featured in numerous newspapers and media. The titles of some of your books are “The Truth About Angels,” let’s see, “Dream Dictionary A to Z,” “The Premonition Code,” “The Afterlife Is Real,” “The Sensitive Soul.” So those are some of your books. We’ll be talking about all those things. This will be a free-flowing conversation. As I always tell my guests, Theresa, just don’t restrict yourself to what I happen to think to ask you. If something comes to mind that you’d like to talk about, just launch into it. And people will be sending in some questions also. So we’ll just have a lot of fun for the next couple of hours. So where would you like to start? I’ll let you decide among all the things we’re going to talk about. Where would you like to start?
Theresa: At the beginning?
Rick: All right, let’s start there. Yes.
Theresa: You want to know why I do this?
Rick: Sure. How did you get into all this?
Theresa: I was kind of born into it. My mother was a professional astrologer, medium. That’s what our family was like. You know, I grew up believing everybody could talk to dead people or consult tarot cards or whatever. Then somehow I was blessed to get a place at King’s College Cambridge to read theology because I’m interested in spirituality. And of course when I went to Cambridge, I realized that not everybody talks to dead people or believes in astrology and crystals and all that. And it’s been a, I hate that word, journey, but it’s been a lifelong journey now of trying to understand the spiritual, the esoteric, and writing many many books about it. And all of my books actually, if you go back in time, because I’ve been doing this 20 years, as I said I’ve been blessed. I’ve been with all the publishers writing about this. I can see it’s me trying to actually learn along the way. You know, my intuitive understanding of it because it’s what I’m born into, and my doubt has played a huge part in it as well. Because I do actually the place I’m at now, which is really interesting, is doubting a lot. And you know, and thinking well don’t believe everything because you’re told it. You know, I’m alarmed at the moment in the world how many people are so very gullible and willing to follow so easily. So that’s where I am. That’s where my latest book, “The Truth About Angels,” actually looks at this. What is going on in the New Age movement at the moment? All these gurus we have everywhere, all these people, and I’m looking into that. So as you can see, I’m a serial writer, a serial spiritual writer, and in some ways I was looking at you actually before I did this interview. You have interviewed so many people and you’ve kind of got to a place, you said, where you don’t feel you belong anywhere now. You’re too much of a rebel to be… I read that somewhere that you felt that you were a kind of a rebel and you had your own individualistic view now of spirituality.
Rick: Kind of.
Theresa: I found that interesting.
Rick: Yeah, I don’t throw the baby out with bathwater. I respect all kinds of authorities or traditions and whatnot. But, you know, like you were saying about doubt, there’s a famous quote from the Buddha where he says, “Don’t believe anything just because somebody says it. Even if I say it,” the Buddha is saying, “Check it out with your own thought processes, with your own discrimination and determine what veracity it may have.” He didn’t use those words, but that kind of a point. I think that spirituality should be a scientific enterprise. I think that a scientific way of thinking is extremely helpful to a spiritual aspirant. I also think that spirituality has things to offer science that science will be very impoverished without, and I know that you’re very interested in that, and you’ve been, you know, involved with folks at IONS, Institute of Noetic Sciences, and so on.
Theresa: Well, I actually co-authored with Dr. Julia Mossbridge when she was still a scientist at IONS, and I believe she’s a fellow and has moved on.
Rick: Yeah, I met Julia. She did a Heartmath test on me one time.
Theresa: She’s a force, isn’t she? And it was wonderful that book actually I did, because I, as I said, I’d written book after book after spiritual topics, but I wrote about them from a believer’s perspective. A lot of my books were collecting true experiences of people who’ve had near-death experiences after life science precognition, and I wasn’t aware of the science out there. I mean, I was creating all these books for the converted, if you were, and it was only when I stumbled across the Institute of Noetic Sciences about six years ago that it blew my mind that there were scientists out there looking at the inner world in the same way as the external world and analyzing it as data. And I have stalked them ever since, and they actually very kindly awarded my read as a landing page, because I talk about them so much now, so that if you’ve read a Theresa Cheung book like “The Afterlife is Real” or “An Angel Called My Name,” that was my Sunday Times top ten, which is people who believe in angels. And if you’ve read this and you want to learn more about the science, go to this landing page and there’s three free gifts from the Institute of Noetic Sciences on there, like a chapter of Dean’s book, you know, a lecture.
Rick: Dean Radin. And he did the forward to the “Premonition Code” for myself and Julia, which was wonderful. That book, to go back to that book, was wonderful, because you had someone like me, who the scientific community would probably, you know, kind of think there, there, laugh at me, in a way, because I come at it from a very, sort of, I lived it, I was born into it, and here are stories, non-scientific, collaborating with someone like Dr. Julia Mossbridge. We created this rather strange book, but which has now got a kind of a cult following of its own, called “The Premonition Code,” where I’m going through the book, I do feel a bit like the comic relief in the book, going, “But Julia, I don’t understand. Tell me about the physics.” And she’s sort of like, “Okay, Theresa, here we go,” and explain it. She’s created this sort of scientific system to test pre- cognitives. But what she needed for that book was my database, because, maybe because I’m accessible, I don’t know, or because I’ve simply been around so long, people, you know, have got a Theresa Cheung book, especially in the UK, if you’re interested in the paranormal. They write to me, I leave my email address in all my books. So I’ve got this database of stories of people who have experienced precognition or intuition or afterlife encounters, and that played into the book as well. So it was a wonderful combination of science meets spirit, actually happening together. That book has now been translated in so many languages. We had a website. It made the front page of the Daily Mail over here. I went on to Russell Brand to talk about it. So it was a wonderful combination. But since then, I’ve still continued to stalk the Institute of Noetic Sciences, and I’m still in regular touch with them, and I really enjoy that. I’ve had all of them on my podcast, talking to me. Arnold DeLorme, Helena, you know, and Garret Yount, the whole team. Dean, of course, miss Dean. Yes, yes. I think if there was a movie about a scientist, they would have to cast Dean. You know, a scientist, he’s just how you would imagine a scientist studying the paranormal to be like. But he was terrific fun on my podcast.
Rick: He has actually such a sense of humor, actually.
Theresa: Yes, yes. So they’re all on my podcast, and that formed the basis of season one of my podcast, was my interviews with all these scientists. But I also had Penny Sartori on there, and Eben Alexander, who has become a kind of friend. I met him when he came to the UK. We had a coffee together, and he was fascinating to listen to as well on the podcast. He talked about his near-death experience. Since then, I’ve just gone on to do more and more interviews with practitioners, experts, authors on my podcast.
Rick: Yeah, that’s good. I listened to a few episodes of it. It’s called White Shores, is that what it’s called?
Theresa: Do you know why it’s called that?
Rick: Why? I don’t know.
Theresa: “Lord of the Rings.”
Rick: Oh, really? I forget that reference.
Theresa: Ian McKellen as Gandalf. I think it’s in the second or third. I can’t remember. I’m not that. But basically, the Hobbits think they’re going to die because the Orcs are attacking. And he says, “I fear death.” And Gandalf turns to him and says, “You needn’t fear it.” Because then he has this beautiful speech. It’s on YouTube, and he says, “It’s White Shores. It’s a far-green country under a different sunrise.” And he says, “Well, that’s not so bad, is it?” You know, he’s comforting that there is life after death, and it’s called White Shores. And of course, that beautiful scene at the end when Frodo goes off in the boat. I love “Lord of the Rings,” and so it was my kind of tribute to that. In the first episode, it was great fun because I asked all the scientists if they could be a character in Lord of the Rings, which one would it be? Guess which one that most of them chose.
Rick: Probably Gandalf. Yeah?
Theresa: Yeah. Some of them chose the ring.
Rick: Oh, the ring itself.
Theresa: Yeah. In a way, what I’m trying to do, because we do talk about really sort of, you know, paranormal topics, the science of consciousness, but to do that in that light-hearted way seems to have worked, because the podcast has proved quite popular, probably because it is so surreal when you listen to it.
Rick: That’s nice. Your “Lord of the Rings” reference reminded me of a scene from “Star Wars” where Obi-Wan Kenobi is fighting Darth Vader, and he says to Darth Vader, “If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.” And then he ends up getting struck down. But then, you know, he’s kind of working from the other side after that.
Theresa: But you see movies, these iconic movies like “Star Wars” and “Lord of the Rings,” I firmly believe the reason they have touched so many lives is the underlying spirituality. It’s a way to teach these spiritual lessons in a way that wouldn’t maybe necessarily reach people with the earnest podcasts or books. And I had this idea, actually, and that’s how I ended up talking to Piers Morgan, you know, because I had this idea of the force in “Star Wars”, and I teamed up with the head of the Jedi Church to write a book called “Become the Force.” And that was an interesting project. I mean, I’m not an obsessive “Star Wars” fan. I just thought all those people queuing up in the theater to see “Star Wars,” what they’re queuing up for really isn’t the special effects and all that and the actors. It’s the spiritual theme, The Force. We all understand what that is. So that was an interesting project to work on as well. As I see, I’m trying very different ways to bring spirituality out of just talking to the converted all the time. I really love also engaging with skeptics. That’s why I went on Russell Brand. You know, he’s not a skeptic. He is actually very spiritually inclined, but, you know, that’s a fun episode to listen to because you’ve got him going, “What?” when I’m talking about life after death and all that. But I’ve also…Michael Marshall, who’s a well-known Guardian critic, skeptic over here. I’ve sparred with him. And I love doing that because I’m not trying to convert anyone, but I’m just trying to talk to people who normally wouldn’t engage in spirituality because I do all the festivals and the talks and everything. But nine times out of ten, the people who listen are inclined to believe anyway. And I think it’s really interesting when people from totally different backgrounds—that’s why I love the “Premonition Code” with Julia. You had a scientist, a neuroscientist, with a general spiritual writer. It was interesting mix, and I like that. I like pushing the boundaries, if you were, in a way, and getting dialogue about these issues about what’s the meaning of life, why are we here.
Rick: Yeah, well, as you know, there are many scientists who aren’t really scientific, as Dean often discusses, and David Lorimer with the Galileo Commission and people like that. They basically have the attitude, “Well, you say you’ve got all this data about premonition or life after death or whatever, but that can’t be true, therefore I’m not going to look at it.” Now, that’s not a scientific attitude. And to my way of thinking, anything could be a viable hypothesis to investigate. Angels, for instance, you’re going to talk about angels today. Do they exist? Well, you may doubt it, you may believe it, but you don’t really know, and you can investigate it. And maybe there’s some evidence that ought to be looked at. And, you know, a couple hundred years from now, maybe people look back and think it was ridiculous that there was this schism between science and spirituality. There’s just reality, and both bring different tools to the table for exploring it.
Theresa: Absolutely, it’s part of the human experience since man-woman began. People have had these supernatural, these supernormal experiences, and they’re part of the human experience. Why on earth deny them? I’m very much—I don’t know the reason for them, but why not study them? Why not understand them? I don’t think also you should put people on a pedestal who have these powers or these visions. I don’t believe that either. How is that going to help you? I think it should be all about your direct personal experience and activating that angel gene within you, rather than following someone who says, “I’ve seen angels.” That’s what my latest book is about. It’s about, you know, if you want to see angels, start behaving like one. Start activating it, you know, look in the mirror and smile at yourself with eyes of true love, because most people struggle to love themselves. That’s where you start, with a bit of self-love. And you know, grow your own wings. And that’s what I’d like to see more of at the end, as I move towards the latter part, the twilight part of my writing career, because I really am a serial writer. You know, you have serial killers, but I’m a serial writer. I’ve written so many spiritual books now. It’s a blessing to be in that position. But what, you know, the pandemic—
Rick: Theresa the Scriptor, instead of Jack the Ripper, you’ve got Theresa the Scriptor.
Theresa: Right, that’s my new tagline. But you know, what COVID, the pandemic, has done in a way, it sounds, it’s kind of unleashed me in a way, because I was getting ready to wind down. And then suddenly, in early 2020, I got these major companies like, you know, over here, Beauty Bay or Anthropologie, the clothing store, suddenly saying, “Look, everybody’s dreaming, right, because of lockdown, the furloughs. Can you explain, can you help what’s going on?” And for me, in a way, that was like, “Oh my goodness,” because for me, dreams are the door to the unconscious. They’re the first step, the opening, the beginning. Because most people who are rational or logical or discount spirituality, they’re still interested in their dreams, because they have them. My husband, for example, he’s very logical and rational, but he’s very interested in dream interpretation, because he gets that. So what I found I was able to do, through all these requests to go on radio, TV, or whatever, to talk about the meaning of the most common dreams, was actually to get people to think spiritually, and to think beneath the material, beneath the surface. For example, if you dream you’re falling, are you unsupported in your life? What is your unconscious, your intuition, trying to tell you? And you get people thinking like that, that opens the door. And then you can start bringing in other concepts and other ones. It’s been incredible, spirituality. But I guess that tends to happen in times of crisis, that people do seek deeper meanings. We’re talking life and death here, so we’re seeking deeper meaning.
Rick: I think there might be something else going on, too. I noticed I started dreaming more when the pandemic set in, and I wasn’t radically changing my lifestyle, since I’m not like a social gadfly anyway. But then I heard a story about it on the news, so they were asking some doctor about it. She said, “Well, it’s just because people are sleeping more, therefore they’re dreaming more.” But I think there’s something more to it, which I think perhaps there’s some kind of enlivenment of the field, of the force, if you will, taking place in the world. And that’s kind of stirring things up for people more, and therefore they’re dreaming more. What do you think about that?
Theresa: Well, I think it’s your intuition, your internal therapist, your intuition, it’s in the name, speaking to you and trying to help. Because it’s the part of you that wants to help and heal, because it’s been so chaotic, filled with grief and loss last year. And what it’s doing is, through this awakening of dreaming, it’s called the lockdown dream phenomenon, I’ve been asked so many times about it. And yes, there is a biological reason, people’s sleeping patterns have altered. And of course, when that happens, if you have altered sleeping patterns, it’s not that you’re sleeping more, it’s often that altered sleeping patterns. That’s why you tend to dream more on holiday, because you’re a bit jet-lagged and you get more REM, rapid eye movement sleep. Also, our mornings have slowed down. Instead of rushing off to work or your chores, you’re at home, so you have longer for these images to come to your consciousness and recall them. There are biological rational reasons, but I think there’s a deeply spiritual reason. I’m trying to say so much that I want to say, but everybody dreams, right? Whatever your age, your race, your culture, your political belief.
Rick: Whatever your species, even dogs dream, you can see them kicking their legs and making little noises.
Theresa: Absolutely. Dreams illustrate our shared humanity, and isn’t that what we need to be reminded of right now? That we are all shared humanity, we all share this consciousness. And I think that’s why dreams came to the fore. It’s a powerful spiritual wake-up call. We are all linked. Whoever you are, you’re going to dream. But also, it’s connecting you to that part of yourself which knows the bigger picture of your life, which has your best interests at heart. And I think in the modern world, we’ve disengaged from that unconscious, intuitive part of ourself, because our lives are so busy, so fast, so much materialism, so much passive consumption of what’s on our phones and in the media, that we’ve switched off that inner guide. But the pandemic forced us all back in onto it, and it expressed itself through dreams. And of course, right now, dreams are never more at the… — because Netflix, number one over here, is that paranormal thriller “Behind Her Eyes,” which I don’t know if it’s over there in the States, but it’s absolutely huge over here, and it’s all about lucid dreaming. Yeah. And it’s just like, people have just gone so much interest into it, what’s going on, because it’s a psychological thriller, but it takes lucid dreaming as the doorway going into your dream. It’s just, I’m sure — it was a New York Times bestseller, so I’m sure it will, you know, it’ll be over there on Netflix, too. And so many people — it’s a big talking point online, “Behind Her Eyes.”
Rick: “Behind Her Eyes,” Irene, she says it’s a great series on Netflix. We sort of, we have an erratic Netflix subscription, unsubscribe and resubscribe.
Theresa: It’s very dark, Rick, so I wouldn’t advise it, because — but that’s what I try to do, to remove the fear and woo out of the supernormal. If you want a really positive recent edition, it’s of course the Disney Pixar movie Soul.
Rick: I’ve heard that’s great, yeah. Heaven.
Theresa: And in 2019, I interviewed Dr. Loren Carpenter, who is an IONS Fellow, and he was co-founder of Pixar and a science director at Disney before he became an IONS Fellow. So it did not surprise me at all that Disney was going to serve up the afterlife and a near-death experience for children in animation, because of talking to Dr. Loren Carpenter, and this is, you know, the co-founder of Pixar. There’s so many spiritual concepts, actually, in Disney movies, if you look at it.
Rick: Well, if you think about it, a lot of people are talking about some kind of spiritual awakening taking place in the world, on a global scale, and some of them have rather strange interpretations of how it’s supposed to play out. But, you know, people have been talking about this for a long time and anticipating it, and, you know, maybe it’s really kicking in now, and it’s this… If anybody’s ever been on a spiritual retreat, you probably experienced that there your dreams intensified incredibly, had all kinds of vivid dreams, profound things. And so the whole world is, to a certain extent, on a spiritual retreat now, if you want to call it that, or on a retreat, whether you make it spiritual or not, I guess, is another matter. But there’s definitely kind of an enlivenment taking place, I think, in global consciousness, and it’s impacting everyone’s psychologies, the way we function in our dreams. And I guess you might say that we’re more open during our dreams, during sleep, than we are in the waking state, generally. And so, naturally, we might notice kind of more profound things happening during sleep than in the waking state, more likelihood.
Theresa: Well, we’re meeting ourself in our dreams. We’re understanding, and that’s the goal of therapy/counselling, actually. The goal of a good therapist and counsellor is to get you to understand yourself better, and I think that’s the journey of our lives, is self-understanding. But we do that every night in our sleep. We’re going into this symbolic world, where everything’s represented symbolically, and we’re understanding aspects of our own personality. As I say, it’s like that, the movie references will come in with me. That’s what I’m like. I’m a real movie buff. “Inception,” of course, you know, when everybody stops and stares at the dreamer, right?
Rick: Is that with Leonardo DiCaprio?
Theresa: It is, of course. I also follow Leonardo DiCaprio, as well as IONS. But, you know, that’s what I love, these big movies. They can awaken interest in these concepts in such a way. But what I hope, once the pandemic – we will go back to a sort of normal. I really hope that this love affair the world has had with their dreams won’t go away, and people will keep recording and recalling their dreams, and look at their dreams. I do think it’s extremely powerful. If anyone gets anything out of this interview, please don’t think your dreams are nonsense and random. Write them down, and look at what the dreams are trying to tell you. And don’t just think one dream has a message. Often it’s a series of dreams, a bit like Netflix series. You know, you’ve got to look at them all and see what you are trying to tell yourself, what your intuition is trying to tell you. But there is a category of dreams, also a very rare category, which I believe have psychic elements, because I get so much mail about it. Or precognitive, and that’s another area which suggests there’s so much within us that we have no idea about.
Rick: And would you say there’s a category of dreams that aren’t really dreams? I mean, for me, the most profound experiences I’ve ever had in my life have been during sleep. You know, just counting on the fingers of one hand, you know, and I’ve been meditating for 53 years, but there are some really profound things. But they didn’t seem like dreams, because they were just so significant and profound and intense and whatnot. Irene too, she’s saying over there. So, and it’s probably because of the innocence and the openness of the condition you’re in when you’re asleep. You can kind of be receptive to levels of cognition or experience that you are not so receptive to, even in a meditative state when you’re awake.
Theresa: Well, your conscious mind is so controlling, isn’t it? And it won’t allow the intuition to surface. But of course, when you sleep, your intuition reigns. It has free reign to express itself. Yes, and I call these rare kind of dreams night vision. They’re marked often, because most of our dreams, I would say about 99%, are symbolic. They’re just as valuable, because they’re all really helpful messages, where your dreaming mind expresses itself through symbols and metaphors, but personal symbols and metaphors that you’ve got to learn the language of. I always say when you dream, it’s like going to another country. If you want to understand the culture, you need to understand the language. So, you need to go on a crash course of understanding your personal symbols. Like everybody, you know, if a cat, for example, if you dream of a cat, everybody has a different personal relationship with cats. Some people love them, some people not so much. So, you’ve got to interpret dreams not so much from the universal interpretation, but from your personal one. That’s where often a lot of people fall down. They think, “Oh, I dreamt of this, and it’s going to mean X, Y, and Z.” But also, just a little bit more before we go into the rare kind of dreams, these symbolic dreams also often tend to have a lot of fear in them. And people say, “Well, why is that?” And that’s because the dreaming mind wants to get its message across. Sometimes being gentle and giving you nice dreams on a holiday in Hawaii, it is not enough. Sadly, it’s like being cruel to be kind. Sometimes nightmares and fear will come in. For example, if you’re being chased in your dream, what are you running away from? What aspect of yourself do you need to turn around and deal with? And all that. And also, if you have a dream of death, a lot of people have dreams of death. This is where the symbolic interpretation is so important. If you dream of someone dying and you know that you know, it does not mean to say they’re going to die. You’ve got to look at the symbolism. Death is an ending, but a new beginning. So perhaps your relationship with that person is going through a transformation. But to go back to what you were talking about, night vision, which I believe is a small category, there is a difference. Symbolic dreams tend to be a bit like a music video. A lot of shifting images doesn’t really make sense. But night vision, it tends to have a beginning, a middle and end, feel very vivid and realistic. And I think that’s like a door to somewhere. If you believe in the spirit, the afterlife, the unseen realm, it’s a door that you’re going to there. And I have had a few of these night visions in my life and, my goodness, they typically tend to be when I meet departed loved ones and I have a very vivid, realistic conversation with them. When I wake up, it’s like I have talked to them. It felt so, so real. I did a lot of research into this, and I actually found that the research shows that in over 90% of cases, people who dream of departed loved ones do recover better with the grief. It’s a very healing thing to happen as well. But I call them afterlife signs, afterlife visitations, and I think these experiences should be studied. I just, you know…
Rick: I’m tempted to tell you some of my night visions, but I don’t want to talk about me too much.
Theresa: Oh no, please do, I’d love to hear. Tell me, please.
Rick: Well, I’ll start with the most profound one and we’ll see if I get into any of the others. But the most profound one, I was asleep, my body was, and I was ushered into a room and I was asked to lie down on my stomach on a pallet of some sort and hang on to a couple of handles at shoulder height. And some being came in with a trident or a spear and started stabbing up and down my spine, like stabbing, and it was the most excruciating, intense thing I’d ever experienced. I’m summarizing here. And when I woke up from it, I woke up like kind of in a sweat, but feeling as I gained ordinary consciousness the greatest bliss and sense of liberation I had ever felt, like as if I’d been bound by steel bands for all of eternity and they’d been broken. And I just walked around in a state of awe for several days because I felt so transformed by that. Then I later discovered just a few years ago that, this was like back in 1980, this happened. I later discovered that Tibetan Buddhism or something has a practice where you’re supposed to imagine Lord Shiva stabbing your chakras with his trident. I think maybe somebody had that experience that I had and then tried to reverse engineer it into a practice. So that was one of them.
Theresa: Incredible.
Rick: It was like if I’ve had any significant awakening in my life, that was the biggest one.
Theresa: Did you know about this ceremony before this practice?
Rick: No. I just heard about that. The dream happened in thing a couple years ago, that there was some such tradition.
Theresa: I mean, that is such an incredible scenario to just come out of nowhere. And the fact that you felt bliss, awakening, but literally transformed, just like, gosh. It’s basically the darkness before the dawn. It’s the pain before birth.
Rick: It’s a huge release.
Theresa: Yes, it’s about, and sometimes, I always say in my books, you don’t go to heaven, you grow to heaven, growth hurts. And the only way to grow is out of your comfort zone.
Rick: I’ll tell you another one quickly. So the experience was just complete unboundedness, you know, just unbounded awareness. And then gradually, gradually, a thought started coming, and I started thinking, “Holy mackerel, I am having one heck of a meditation. I don’t even remember starting to meditate. Oh, this is beautiful.” Then I kind of experienced I was sitting in lotus, and I became aware of my body. I was sitting up in lotus having this meditation, this unbounded awareness. Then, again, summarizing, I realized, “I’m fast asleep. I’m lying on the bed. This whole thing was happening just sort of on some…”
Theresa: So you became lucid, so you knew you were dreaming. That’s lucid dreaming. You knew you were dreaming when you’re dreaming. That’s a wonderful skill that you can learn. Have you practiced lucid dreaming techniques?
Rick: No, I haven’t ever practiced. It just comes or it doesn’t, no.
Theresa: Wouldn’t you want to? Wouldn’t you want to wake up in that dreamland state? You can role-play, you can be anywhere, you can go up to space, you can fly, you can visit every country.
Rick: Well, I remember when I read the Carlos Castenada books, Don Juan told them to try to see your hands in your dreams. So then, as so, I thought, “All right, I’m going to try to do that.” And eventually, I actually, I’m dreaming, “Okay, I want to see my hands. Yep, did it.” And then after that, I just didn’t keep, you know, messing with it.
Theresa: Oh, I mean, with me, that’s my next big journey, lucid dreaming, because I’ve written so many dream dictionaries and encyclopedias now, and that’s where I want to go now. And I’m learning techniques and potentially writing another book about it, actually, because there’s so much interest in it. How do you do it? How do you become lucid in your dream? Because, actually, we do need it at the moment, because the way our waking life is not great at the moment for a lot of people. So, let’s go and explore and have fun in our dreams. So many of us limit ourselves in our dreams. We have these dreams, either they’re boring or they’re not very pleasant or whatever, but actually, you can make your dream life wildly exciting.
Rick: Oh, yeah.
Theresa: You can role-play, you can be or do anyone and anything. I’m telling you, when people are able to control their dreams, become lucid in their dreams, the confidence boost it gives you. I’ve had one or two times in my life, maybe three, where I have been aware that I’m dreaming and I’ve controlled the dream. I can tell you, the next morning, I’m just flying. Literally, you know, the world, I feel I can do anything. Often, it’s before something amazing happens in my waking life, because what we don’t realize also is our dreams are a commentary on our waking life.
Rick: Yeah.
Theresa: Right. It’s just a continuation. And if you want your dreams to be more exciting, if you want creative ideas for the next novel or your next project to come in your dreams, as many great geniuses have actually had inspiration from their dreams, you know, the plot of Frankenstein, for example, was a dream.
Rick: I read that section in your book, you know, Paul McCartney and all kinds of other people have had, he dreamed the song “Yesterday.” Yeah, all kinds of stuff.
Theresa: Yes, I mean, Christopher Nolan, the director, he’s a very much of a lucid dreamer. But what I’m saying, if you want to have more interesting creative dreams, it starts in your waking life. Become more mindful, become more curious in your waking life. A lot of us go through life with our blinkers on, in a kind of like routine. If you could actually treat each day as the precious gift it is, full of wonder and awe, that’s not always easy, because life can be tough. But if you can become more curious about everything in your waking life, that’s going to have a knock-on effect on your dreaming. There are certain techniques you can do during the day to increase the likelihood of becoming lucid in your dream. One of them is on the hour or every two hours saying, “Am I awake? Am I asleep?” Like right now, maybe I’m dreaming I’m having this conversation with you, Rick, but no, I’m awake. That hurts. So, keep asking you[rself] that, because the thing is that what you do in your waking life will somehow carry over in the dream, and eventually you’ll be in a dream and you’ll be asking yourself, “Am I awake or am I asleep?” Then when you know you’re asleep, you can do anything. It’s amazing.
Rick: You know, dreaming is considered, both I think by moderns and by ancients, as one of three, or three ordinary states of consciousness – waking, dreaming, and sleeping, right? In the Vedic tradition, they have a, they identify, they define a state which they call “fourth,” which they call turiya. Turiya means “fourth.” The idea is that if pure consciousness is developed, well, if one becomes aware of the field of pure consciousness, which is one’s own essential nature, to a sufficient degree such that it’s no longer overshadowed by anything, it becomes a continuum throughout the other three states – waking, dreaming, and sleeping. So, that’s an interesting consideration. It’s like the movie screen, you know, it’s always there no matter how the movies change. So, it’s really, we could say almost a fifth state of consciousness, where the fourth state becomes a permanent feature of life throughout the other three throw in there.
Theresa: Fascinating.
Rick: Yeah, I mean, I have friends who say they haven’t slept in decades, although they’ve slept, they snore, they sleep, but pure consciousness remains fully illuminated throughout the 24-hour period, including deep sleep.
Theresa: That’s true for all of us, but for some reason we don’t recall.
Rick: Right, it’s there, it just gets blotted out, you know, but it can be enlivened to the extent that it can no longer be blotted out or overshadowed by the depth of sleep.
Theresa: Okay, okay, but I do think that everybody, when they’re asleep, their consciousness is going places. I find it very interesting, actually, people who write to me and say, “I don’t recall my dreams. I don’t remember. I don’t recall.” I think there’s a whole psychology there about what’s going on, about why is it that you don’t want to understand yourself at that deep level.
Rick: Don’t want to, or is it just that people are kind of dulled out, you know, there’s not enough clarity to remember the dreams?
Theresa: Well, that’s why so many more people are dreaming right now, because life has got a bit simpler, especially if you’re on a furlough or you’re at home. I mean, when life is in full, you know, full swing, there’s too much stress. Immediately when you wake up, that, you know, life, your unconscious is too gentle, it can’t compete. So sometimes it’s stress and being way too busy. Or if you’re someone who has a really, really active waking life, you know, that’s fulfilling you. Maybe, you know, when you sleep, you just do want to switch off. I mean, there is a psychology behind it. Or you’re a very rational and logical person who doesn’t really feel comfortable with talking about what is irrational, who doesn’t really want to suspend disbelief. So there’s all sorts of reasons for it, not having dream recall. But I love working with people who say they don’t remember their dreams, because usually after a week or two with me working with them or setting them exercises, they dream.
Rick: You know what happens to me sometimes, not all the time, but maybe once a year this happens to me, I’ll suddenly remember a dream that I had 30 or 40 years ago. I hadn’t remembered it then, but all of a sudden, boom, it comes to mind. I think, oh yeah, that dream isn’t that interesting. Then I go on with my day, but it just comes up.
Theresa: Yeah, what’s the lesson there? What’s your dreaming mind? What’s your intuition trying to tell you something? As I say, it’s your internal therapist and much cheaper than a real one. We’ve all got this resource and I wish we would all connect with it more and fall in love with our dreams. I hope we continue this love affair with our dreams that has happened in 2020. Dreams are huge at the moment.
Rick: Yeah, I think they’re a blast. I mean, I look forward to going to sleep every night because not only is sleep blissful in its nature, but it’s entertaining. Yeah, I wake up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom or something and I’ll just chuckle about what I’ve been dreaming.
Theresa: Because there’s no limits in dreams. You can actually, you know, in waking life we have restraints, we have norms of society or whatever, but in dreams there are no limits. Other people are frightened about that, but wasn’t it the Dalai Lama, correct me if I’m wrong, who said that the best meditation is sleep? I’m sure he said that. And what happens when you sleep? You dream. So, you know, but yeah.
Rick: Somehow that triggered the Hamlet soliloquy there. Oh, you know, “To be or not to be, that is the question, whether it is nobler in the mind. And then…to sleep…to dream–ah, there’s the rub… what dreams may come… to, yadda yada yada.
Theresa: Yeah, dreams can fuel our waking life, they can, as I say, they can help you understand yourself better. You can role-play scenarios. So, you know, you can actually face the worst case scenario in your sleep. For example, you know, the things many of us fear, like being attacked or dying or being lost or unprepared, you know, that classic thing of being late for exam. And what your dreaming mind does, it takes you to that worst place scenario. And there’s this, like, you know, in the self-help movement, you’ve got to imagine the worst case. Most of us won’t allow us to imagine that, especially if you’re a perfectionist or successful person. You won’t allow yourself to be that unprepared or to walk around nude in public.
Rick: I’ve had that one.
Theresa: But your dreaming mind takes you there, so the worst thing has possibly happened. You have exposed yourself in public. You have forgotten your lines on stage. You have messed every single thing up. And it’s okay because you’re still woken up the next morning. It’s a memory. It’s gone. It’s in the past. You’ve been there. You’ve done that. You’ve got it out of your system.
Rick: You know, another one that I had for years that a lot of people say they have is you’re in high school or something and in the dream and you suddenly realize there’s some class that you were supposed to have been attending and you’d totally forgotten about it. Now it’s the end of the year and you’ve forgotten that, now you’re going to flunk this class because you forgot to go to it. Did you ever have that one?
Theresa: Oh yeah, well school-themed dreams are among the top five most common actually. There’s, you know, a certain and the reason is in school it’s when we are forming. It’s such a formative time in our life. Like it or loathe it. It’s when we meet people or get influences that, you know, create our personality. It’s the school that forms our… and most of our lives actually are spent working out issues that we had at school or in our childhood trying to really understand what we think or not what others do. So that’s why we have school school-themed dreams and being late for an exam shows testing situations and not feeling you’re up to it. A lot of people suffer from imposter syndrome or whatever and think am I up for it? And your dreaming mind is just expressing all this for you so you cathartically can get it out of your system.
Rick: Yeah. Another one I’ve had a lot from over the years is I’m swimming underwater and that’s nice but I can breathe. I think to myself wow I’m underwater but I can breathe. Isn’t that interesting?
Theresa: That’s a beautiful dream. Water of course is a universal symbol of emotion and a lot of people actually they’re underwater but they’re drowning.
Rick: Yeah.
Theresa: The fact that you can breathe suggests that your emotions, emotional management is an important part of life. You are managing it. You’re okay. You’re not being submerged by emotions. You are navigating them. I’d be more worried about that dream if you were drowning and and couldn’t breathe. But that’s a beautiful dream showing the sea of emotions. You’re swimming through your own emotions and other people’s and you’re understanding it. You’re being a natural psychologist. That’s what that dream would express to me.
Rick: For some reason I’m into telling you all my dreams now. I guess this is the time to do it.
Theresa: Everybody does. It’s great. I’ve been on I’ve done so much radio and tv recently and I’ve actually started a podcast with a Sky presenter called Alex Morgan. Actually I’ll talk about that. And we’ve got some over here in the UK. It’s not US celebrities but UK celebrities who are coming on and it’s a bit like an interview but then they share a dream and then they wheel me on as the dream catcher. Then it gets really deep. We had a politician talking about being in an opera and not understanding the words. That’s so deep. People will reveal, because the thing is with celebrities they have this mask on but then they think it’s okay to share a funny dream about being nude or their ex chasing them. You can go right in with the psychology there in a really safe way and it’s doing really well actually. It’s called “In Your Dreams” where it’s kind of an interview but we go deep with a dream and I think what a wonderful development. This would never have happened 5, 10, especially here in the UK which does tend to be quite cynical. And here we are in mainstream talking about dreams and taking them seriously. I mean I just feel my work is done. I’m so pleased because what we’re doing there is spirituality. It’s understanding ourselves from the inside out.
Rick: Yeah here’s one that’s another one that’s kind of here’s one where some egotism comes into the dream. I’ll have a dream where I’m levitating or flying or something like that and I think that’s cool but at the same time I think oh is anybody watching they can is anybody seeing that I can do this?
Theresa: Well that’s good because every I mean dreams are a hall of mirrors most of them. Most of them are a hall of mirrors. You’re dreaming yourself and you know levitating you don’t take yourself too seriously. You’re rising above the situation and also you’ve done so many of these amazing interviews by the way. I’m so glad and I’m actually really grateful to Tim Freke.
Rick: Yes
Theresa: I always laugh when I say that name.
Rick: That’s where I first discovered you. I was listening to his podcast and because I listen to it regularly.
Theresa: Oh he’s great isn’t he? So thank you Tim for connecting me and I absolutely I’m going to recommend it everywhere now this podcast. But you’ve interviewed so many people that in a way you must get a sense now I know what this person’s going to say before they do it before they do but do you feel that you’re at that point now? I mean what is it 600 interviews?
Rick: Nearly
Theresa: Wow yeah you’re like a sponge you’ve taken it all on board and and there’s a point now when you think is there anything new that I’m gonna hear and I think that’s what that dream’s about.
Rick: Well I never get bored everything seems new and fresh and each new guest is Like opening a Christmas present or something and you don’t know what you’re going to get and I really enjoy each week, preparing for the guest for a week and listening to their stuff and reading their books and it’s you know certainly they’re repeating themes and we actually have a categorical index on BatGap where we cluster people into categories so you can see all the…
Theresa: Oh gosh what were you going to put me in?
Rick: We’ll start a special category for you. I don’t know I think it’s I love it it’s kind of like everything in my life led up to doing this.
Theresa: well it’s the best job in the world.
Rick: Somebody else said that to me just the other day. It was a brain surgeon in Dubai or someplace said “Oh you’ve got the best job in the world.”
Theresa: Well it is it’s fascinating isn’t it because you never know what you’re going to stumble across. All these people and it’s a wonderful platform and thank you. I’m going to take this opportunity to thank you as well.
Rick: You’re welcome.
Theresa: It makes accessible and gathers together names that you maybe wouldn’t find out otherwise.
Rick: That’s part of our mission actually is not just to interview well-known people but to interview people who are just leading ordinary lives but have had some significant spiritual awakening and that was part of the initial motivation for starting this is that I was talking to friends around town and some of them were having spiritual awakenings and then other friends didn’t believe it because they just seemed like ordinary people and so… How could they have a spiritual awakening, they’re not floating two feet off the ground? So I just wanted to kind of showcase such people so people would realize that it’s possible for me too if it can happen to Joe Schmo over here I could I could do it.
Theresa: I’m sorry I was just I have this habit of talking too much so
Rick: Me too, me too Irene flashes a sign to me during interviews, usually every every time: You’re talking too much.”
Theresa: no no no it’s great but is that Irene? But what was I going to say? If maybe… I forget now okay yes. What I loved about this and I was so excited to be asked is that you put the emphasis on ordinary because I have been invited on to certain podcasts or whatever and I’ve actually sometimes declined because they billed the person like “this extraordinary awakened soul” and I can’t go there I maybe I do suffer from imposter syndrome I consider myself very ordinary I have my moments of spiritual awakening and clarity like everybody else but I consider myself very ordinary I consider myself just simply lucky that I’ve been in the right place in the right time and opportunities have come my way and I’m very curious about the spiritual journey because I was born into it but I don’t like being presented on a platform as some kind of like oh she’s got angels jumping out of her shoulders or whatever can’t I can’t do that I don’t bless my readers I know I have seen people in this movement blessing people and this is as I say at the beginning where I am right now is I’m getting concerned about all that because especially online now we have so many light workers courses I have people writing to me I’ve just done a certified angel course and I think who certified it? Is there? What certification? The certification I’m into and that’s why I collaborate with IONS is scientific endorsement and certainly mediumship I’ve done a lot of study of mediumship people who you know because it was what I was born into a family of spiritualists and spiritualists believe you can communicate to the other side and I can’t do it myself I have I connect with departed loved ones in dreams and through my feelings and my heart but I wouldn’t say I see dead people in the sense most people think of mediums like the Whoopi Goldberg kind of you know representation from “Ghost” so I’ve studied it
Rick: I interviewed the guy who wrote this Who got the Oscar for the screenplay for that movie what’s his name Bruce Joel Rubin.
Theresa: Oh gosh yeah
Rick: he’s a he’s a real spiritual guy we stay in touch he sends out a nice little Christmas email every year and with his family news and we always chat a bit anyway I’m sidetracking you sorry
Theresa: Sorry no but oh that is so interesting but basically with mediumship as I say because a lot of my books are about afterlife experiences or encounters um up until a few years ago I would avoid mention of mediums because I think the opportunity for fraud is too strong however I realize that so many people do get comfort from visiting mediums so I explored that scientifically as well and went around the country actually to try and find an honest medium someone who was doing it from their heart not their ego and their pockets and there are people who who do do tha
Theresa: they’re rare but there are and I came across the Windbridge [Research Center] I don’t know if you’re there
Rick: Julie Beischel
Theresa: Yeah yeah she wrote the forward to the book I wrote about my search to try and find an honest medium. I love what she’s doing, and having a scientific testing– using all the scientific protocols. On her website she lists mediums who have been tested and passed, that have a code of ethics don’t charge you know you know
Rick: An arm and a leg
Theresa: Right I think for a mediumship or a psychic you know you should pay no more than you do for a good haircut.
Rick: That’s good.
Theresa: You shouldn’t and if there’s any celebrity hype around it, steer clear because this is about creating a spiritual superstar not not the real deal, in my humble opinion As I always say my opinion could be wrong. There’s a difference between opinion and a fact but that was an interesting voyage that I went on looking at mediumship. It was it was… I do think there are some honest mediums out there, people who genuinely seem to connect with something. What’s going on whether it’s telepathy but even that’s worth studying isn’t it that’s fascinating that someone can actually read someone else’s thoughts.
Rick: I just want to comment on a couple things you said. Firstly for some reason when I hear the word “light worker” it makes me feel mildly uncomfortable. There’s there’s something something pretentious about it or holier than thou you know. Oh I’m a light worker and what that makes you like chopped liver, or something like that.
Theresa: Well do you know what I found I think that they’re more light workers now than they’re actually people seeking that light. because there’s so many of them, and it’s not enough to just be spiritually awakened, you’ve got to be a light worker, and you heal and you have a… usually there’s a certified course and and a workshop–in pre-covid times. It’s quite frankly ridiculous, a lot of it, and almost funny if vulnerable people were not being exploited. Actually my latest episode of my podcast I talked to I think I emailed you about this, Rick, Christopher Johnson who was in the Netflix documentary “Holy Hell.”
Rick: Yeah and I emailed you back about this Association for Spiritual Integrity that I helped
Theresa: Yeah I’m so glad because it was after I interviewed him I had an hour-long interview and I’m the interview is going up around now and in my introduction I actually mentioned you and what synchronicity because I didn’t know about that organization so I list the website and I’ll put it in the show notes for people who are concerned and it was a riveting interview. He talked about he was 18 years old and how he got sucked into this cult and what was going on, the dynamic between this guru. It’s actually… if you, Have you watched “Holy Hell”?
Rick: oh is it on Netflix you say?
Theresa: Netflix, yeah it was very acclaimed.
Rick: I’ve heard of it
Theresa: It’s about the Buddhafield cult.
Rick: Oh yes I heard of it.
Theresa: Yes it’s very
Rick: I think Be Scofield did a whole article about it.
Theresa: Absolutely fascinating, a Will Allen film. I do highly recommend it because it’s a warning of how easy it is to get your whole life given over to to a cult. Christopher Johnson plays a leading part in that. He was one of the guru’s favorites and he talks about how he was sucked into it and how he escaped. I’m blessed for that interview it was actually again through someone who Tim Freke knows, Richard Cox, who kindly connected me because he was hearing me talking on my podcast about “Look why are you following all these people? Have you checked their credentials?” I was talking a lot about that and so I got this interview and it’s really really helpful interview I would love to put him in touch with you actually. He has a “Holy Hell” Facebook page for people who have been sucked into cults or whatever and it’s so relevant right now because the theme of being fed lies or untruths has gone mainstream
Rick: Yeah it really has
Theresa: because media
Rick: Yeah let’s let’s dwell on this topic just for a few more minutes because it’s important and then we’ll switch over to angels. I think that you know discernment, discrimination and ethics are critical components on the spiritual path and if one is deficient in any of those you can be meditating for decades and just go way off the rails and get yourselves totally stuck and deluded. You can’t just sort of do a spiritual practice or this or that and or follow a teacher and relax in all those important areas and expect to just cruise along they’re all
Theresa: but it’s so easy so easy, Rick to get caught up in it because I know when I started and I got my first Sunday Times Top 10, this was all nearly 20 years ago, I suddenly get deluged with mail of people who like “You’ve changed my life!” whatever it’s very…I’m going to be honest it’s intoxicating
Rick: I get that too. People tell me that they were contemplating suicide and then they listened to BatGap and you know…
Theresa: Well that’s wonderful and I’m sure that is the case, but it’s like then you are in a position of responsibility because you can either take it to the… I can see why people would love that and take it further because then when the media started to come in; the media plays a part as well. My first feature in a newspaper was a lovely feature, and of course you have no control how the journalists do it but when it came out it was a national newspaper: “world’s greatest psychic” that’s what they called me.
Rick: But you’re not even a psychic.
Theresa: Yeah yeah no I’m not, but I’d written a book about astrology where I’d given psychological profiles for each day of the year based on simple astrology or whatever and a lot of people were saying the predictions I’d made were very accurate. I know that I’m not psychic. I was just using common sense, popular psychology, and putting in a bit of excitement with it but at that point I had a choice. I could have gone that path, the celebrity kind of psychic. Maybe I have the odd intuitive hit maybe I am intuitive I don’t I think we all are but it’s a choice you have to make. So ever since then I’ve said I’m an ordinary person, who like everybody else has extraordinary experiences from time to time, and when I do I celebrate those and I write about them and I want to hear about them, but I can understand how it happens and especially as I’m a serial writer and I’ve worked with so many publishers. Publishing is a business you know if they’re going to publish a psychic or a healer or a medium they want that psychic and healer medium out there with the tour and the you know they want it’s a business so it’s it’s very difficult when when you know and to go back to when you see a lot this term light worker somebody says they’ve had a vision of an angel or somebody says they can see auras or had a near-death experience you know it’s you are you are then automatically people want to worship and follow and there’s something in human nature that wants that and that concerns me a bit
Rick: well you remember what Jesus said he said you know whatsoever all these things I do these miraculous things you shall do even greater things and I think he was trying to tell people that you know there’s nothing really special about me that you don’t potentially have as well and you need to you need to develop it and
Theresa: absolutely I believe we’re all got it in us but it’s it’s where you choose to put your focus and also when you do focus on it not to get obsessed with it and not to be results driven
Rick: yeah
Theresa: And expect the unexpected when you do start developing your spirituality and not think that spirituality is going to reveal itself in a very set fixed way you know like in the movies or whatever you know how you think or suddenly you’re going to wake up and you see an angel or suddenly you’re going to wake up and you have a blinding premonition that saves your life that’s not how it works it’s a it’s much more subtle than that
Rick: And if you’re a teacher then it’s not only for the sake of your students that you have to sort of toe this ethical line and maintain humility and so on because you know you can harm people if you don’t but it’s also for your own sake because the bigger they are the harder they fall you know and if it goes to your head you’re going to crash and burn eventually.
Theresa: It’s as I said this is this need within people you’re right to to want to follow and to be told what to do and it is intoxicating if you’re in a position of influence to fall into that and give people what they want which is certainty. like if somebody’s grieving this is what you need to do if you fear death here’s what to think it’s very intoxicating to fall into that but as I’ve said many times to people I’m sure if there is an afterlife when you go to the other side you won’t be asked how much you copied or followed anyone else. You’ll be asked how much was Theresa Theresa not much how did Theresa be inspired by the works of Mother Theresa or Gandhi or all sorts of you know iconic spiritual figures how true were you to who you are. That’s what I believe.
Rick: It’s interesting that some of my most popular interviews have been channelers and healers
Theresa: Oh yes everybody wants that.
Rick: Because they’re doing it for you. I mean I don’t have to do anything I’m going to get this wisdom from this person I’m going to get healed by this person and so on.
Theresa: Yes exactly it’s much easier to see someone who and worship someone like that and also it’s sensational it’s exciting you know this person’s seen heaven this person knows what death’s like this person can talk to arcane…There’s a whole that’s what I talk about in my angel thing to go on about that there’s apparently according to angel experts there’s this whole hierarchy I mean it seems to be very much like they’ve organized the other side like LinkedIn it’s like you know it seems like there’s this whole hierarchy of ascended masters and all these things that happen on the other side, and I think this is madness…
Rick: Well let’s switch to the whole angel talk here because we spent an hour talking about a lot of stuff and but let’s dedicate the rest of this interview mostly to talking about angels. So angels you just alluded to somehow live on the other side or they live in some dimension that is not our ordinary earthly perception. Let me give a quick definition of what I think angels are and you tell me how that jibes with what you understand and then please elaborate to a great extent. My sense intuitive and also just intellectual from everything I’ve studied is that you know there are many dimensions to the universe and we all beings have a certain range of perception, operate within a certain range and human beings have the capability to… well ordinarily they operate within a fairly narrow band but they have the capability to expand expand their range of perception to incorporate subtler realms in which forms of life resides, subtle beings angels and all kinds of others a whole menagerie of different types of beings that are outlined in various traditional scriptures. There is a hierarchy perhaps in the sense that some of them are much have much greater power and are a higher level of evolution have much greater broader sphere of influence and some of them might be you know very specific and localized either attending to certain individual people or plants or trees or whatever they have so that might be little angel devas or whatever and then great big galactic you know gods or devas and human beings are…it wouldn’t be practical for ordinary human life to be aware of this stuff all the time but some people like David Spangler and others are born in the natural capacity to experience this stuff and others it may develop later on in life. I’ll say one more thing and then shut up. One thing that’s fascinating here is that you know imagine if extraterrestrials landed on the white house lawn or maybe the courtyard of Buckingham Palace. It would be a huge news story. Wow there’s other kinds of life that we never even realized existed and here they are! We see them! So it’s a bit ironic that we’re completely surrounded by forms of life that we don’t even imagine exist and yet do and they may or may not be aware of us many of them are I think and they’re all among us. And yet we’re most of us are completely oblivious to that fact and that’s fascinating all right I’ve said enough you go ahead.
Theresa: I love your I love your interpretation about angels and for me whatever people think about angels is right for them. For me personally I’ve come to the belief that I don’t know these unseen realms I’m sure they exist but I have no personal proof. I’m sure there are people who say they can travel to these realms but that’s their experience that’s about
Rick: the realms are right here you don’t have to travel to them. All those subtle dimensions are right here and can be perceived in the midst of riding on a bus or something.
Theresa: Absolutely. Absolutely. That’s what I say the angels around there are within and that’s my expansive interpretation about angels. What I love about angels is they exist in every religion even Buddhism. We have kind of winged figures. They can also exist outside of religion. Nobody went to war about angels. They are you know totally universal and they’re a wonderful way to draw people into spirituality you can believe in angels without being religious. I love that aspect but increasingly from all the research I’ve done and I have been writing I’ve written probably about 15 angel books now this will be my 16th you know
Rick: you’ve written about 100 books haven’t you
Theresa: I have I told you I’m what was what did you call me um you called me
Rick: the Serial Scriptor or something you must have really good time management skills to write all these books
Theresa: It’s my passion in life it’s what I love to do but a lot of these books are a collection of other people’s stories people who write to me ordinary people who’ve had angelic encounters and then I collate them I edit them and I talk about them bringing in some of my academic insight as I said I was blessed to have you know study at Cambridge, to study religion and all that. So I kind of bring all that into it but now I’m bringing in the science. But where I am at right now I think angels are within, as you say, they’re the mysterious, the unexplained, the intuition and basically anything that makes you feel sublime that makes you kinder that makes you more compassionate that makes you more loving this is where I have come to term angels
Rick: Okay let’s let’s pick that apart a little bit. So angels are within. Please define within and then the second part is anything that makes you kinder and this and that well you can get kinder just watching a good movie about kind people or something or reading a biography of Mother Theresa.
Theresa: Exactly everything that is an angel sign, your angel sign, the biography of Mother Theresa why would you…
Rick: Why would angels have anything to do with that? It’s just an uplifting book.
Theresa: I know but angels have inspired it
Rick: Anything
Theresa: I don’t know but that’s what I’ve come to believe. I believe that angels exist within us and they are the force for goodness and compassion in the world. At the end of the day that force for goodness, love and compassion is all that truly matters it what gives us deeper meaning. It’s what people on their deathbed…I’ve had the privilege to sit with people when they were dying when I worked in a hospice. They talk of love they talk about kindness, they talk about their angels that’s that’s the way that I feel angels express themselves. I’m not interested in angelology or giving angel very human terms and names or saying that I’ve been just because I’ve had a dream and in that dream I went to a realm and I saw all these angel beings reading books that that is real. I don’t know. All I know is that at the end of the day what gives our life deeper meaning is this spiritual understanding this connection to the force within us and that’s where it’s got very simple with me actually. My life really it’s got so simple. I’ve realized that all these years I’ve over-complicated it with all this terminology, with all these groups, with all these systems, with all these people who have set way of doing it. It’s very very simple. I think spirituality can be summed up with two words: “Be kind.”
Rick: That’s great
Theresa: That’s it. Let’s just end the conversation, that’s it just be kind. Because through doing that we make the world a better place we also make ourselves feel better and there’s scientific research, psychological research to show that kindness is this force. Kindness can make you lead a beautiful life.
Rick: Yeah it’s very important and for so many reasons. Not only… it’s like what I said earlier about teachers. It’s kind Kindness is important not only for the people you influence but because there’s an immediate feedback loop and if you are unkind you coarsen and degrade and undermine your own makeup.
Theresa: So true but the most important starting point for that is kindness to the self but most people understand being kind to others and I’ve met so many spiritual people who are endlessly kind for other people helping giving giving giving but still unhappy and of course it’s that be kind is the proviso be kind to yourself and others you know that’s the most important thing and I think it is the hardest thing for people to learn a lot of my books actually have become very simple with a journey the return to love the return to being for yourself what you’re looking for in others because we’re seeking in others in relationships in career in spiritual teachings feeling good about ourselves but we’ve got to do that for ourselves that’s the starting point self-love. Every religious system encourages self-care but none of them really tell us how to do it. I think people especially if you’ve had a traumatic childhood as a lot of people drawn to spirituality are because they you know the people who should care for them didn’t so they seek a deeper meaning and an understanding why. You need to learn the basics of self love, that return to love. It’s the hardest thing to do, it really is. It takes a lifetime but once you get to that point, not narcissism, I’m not talking about that. There’s so much talk about narcissism although that’s a completely different category but just nurturing yourself, body mind, and soul that’s the starting point because when you do that I believe you naturally attract people into your life who treat you the way you treat yourself
Rick: Yeah I mean the way I would interpret self-love… I had a big epiphany when I was 18 and I had been you know taking full advantage of everything the late 60s had to offer and I kind of realized
Theresa: experience is important too I mean we need to encounter our shadow and you know we learn through that we do
Rick: I’d gotten pretty messed up but I had this realization that if I continue on like this it’s it’s I’m going to really damage this body this nervous system and this is my vehicle for living life so I really better clean up my act. And then I changed a lot of things stopped taking drugs learned to meditate and everything. I guess that you could think of that as self-love taking care of this precious gift of human nervous system not uh you know providing it with adequate sleep and nutrition and you know things that make it more healthy, make it function better like you would take care of an an expensive automobile that you want to kind of keep in tune.
Theresa: absolutely absolutely people take better care of their cars than themselves but it’s a switch that’s got to go on and what triggers that because until someone’s ready to make that decision to to take care of themself, nothing other people say or do is going to help it. It has to be and that’s what I feel is the divine within. Some switch has to go on, that you actually get it and you know it is heartbreaking when you tell people well to do the right thing or to take care of themselves but they’re not there yet.
Rick: Yes
Theresa: It seems that their soul has to go through another journey another tough love experience and it’s typically during times of crisis bereavement loss grief they are catalysts for this well I’ve reached rock bottom now so I’ve got to do something different than what I’ve done before and that switch is a personal one it can’t really be facilitated by someone else and that’s why as you told me we’re talking about light workers and gurus that’s all great but unless you’re ready to take that step yourself make that decision yourself, take responsibility for yourself it’s not going to help
Rick: Yeah I’m going to switch back to what we were talking about a minute ago you you were saying that angels are kind of within and I was reminded of Lincoln’s phrase the better angels of our nature which I believe he said during his inaugural address and so you’re kind of defining angels there as positive attributes within our personality but I just want to suggest and perhaps you also believe this, that angels also exist outside of us. For instance one time I gave a panel discussion of a bunch of people who say they had subtle perception or celestial perception. People were talking about the different experiences of subtle beings and all that they have One of the people uh didn’t have much to say and afterwards I asked why and she said “Well they were in my face they were saying ‘you realize you can’t talk about this’ and okay I won’t.” That person also told me that she sees angels or something, doesn’t even know what they are really, but presumably guardian angels around people all the time, just routinely as as you and I would see people in the shopping mall. They just kind of cluster around and seem to be attending to people in some way
Theresa: Absolutely, Rick, there are people who say that they can see that and I say good for them if it makes you happy and it harms no one. However the great majority of people, myself included
Rick: And me
Theresa: don’t see that
Rick: I’ve had a few glimpses but not much
Theresa: Where does that leave us, feeling like failures? I mean spiritual failures because obviously if this person says they can see all these beings why can’t we?
Rick: Well…
Theresa: And does that mean that we need to learn then what they do or whatever and it sets up a cycle of dependency like that you know these people are they’re on a higher spiritual level and I’m very much about you know equality in spirituality and I don’t actually think it’s necessary because I can see angels in a grain of sand in the love of my pet, and in the laughter of my children or in a sunset or a sunrise. that’s how I see them with my inner eyes, when I close my eyes and I think of beautiful things and I think that’s much more of a powerful message than to go out there and say to people well there are these beings you can’t see them but I can
Rick: Yeah no I’m not coming from that angle.
Theresa: Because I’ve been to course after course of spiritual, honestly in my teens I was such an earnest spiritual seekers and I really thought I went to the college of psychic studies I went I mean I literally was a junkie for courses I was shopping for for heaven as it were and every and I actually found myself because I was in these these groups and they can be very smug spiritual retreats or whatever I’m going to say that very serious as well humor is often lacking but it was certainly was when I was doing it all these people were saying well I had this vision and whatever and I was thinking I’ve seen nothing you know and I felt something was wrong with me and then I’d go to the guru and they say well when you’re ready they’ll appear and that’s great but then I just feel that there are a lot of people like me who maybe have been on psychic development courses have seen absolutely nothing but feel they ought to, made it up. I don’t know.
Rick: I think it’s good not to compare oneself with others. I mean you know I don’t feel bad, that I can’t
Theresa: When you’re young you do. I mean when you’re young you do
Rick: You tend to yeah you tend to more but
Theresa: I’m much older now so I realized the only person I should compare myself is the person with I I was yesterday and the only person I should aspire to be is the better person I can be tomorrow but back then it was very impressionable
Rick: right
Theresa: and I began to think you know why are we all doing all these courses and spending hours meditating I mean who’s got time for that anyway shouldn’t life be lived you know spending… and I typically find it, no disrespect, Rick, but it’s often men who meditate for hours
Rick: yeah
Theresa: I just think well you know
Rick: I love it
Theresa: I know but you know I’m sure
Rick: I mean I do stuff the rest of the time but you know a couple times a day
Theresa: I I know but two hours to be able to switch off and especially if you are busy and you’ve got dependents or whatever or whatever you know to just take two hours out to go and I you know I’ve seen that happen a lot you know in couples that the man where’s he gone oh he’s meditating and she’s rushing around doing 101 things
Rick: I think Irene really appreciates getting me out of the room for an hour
Theresa: No that’s true but but if meditations for you as I say I think if it… everybody has their own unique way
Rick: When I meditate; she’s saying it seems like it’s mostly men who like to meditate and I don’t know if that’s true but you know
Theresa: probably not I’m gonna get aside she does change
Rick: Rrene doesn’t resent the fact that I’m not like bugging her for yeah she [Irene] says you meditate and I vegetate
Theresa: but anyway I’m not criticizing that at all if it’s somebody’s path and it makes them feel good
Rick: saved my life and it makes you know and it continues to enhance it yeah
Theresa: Yes but I just think you know I would never recommend for example in my books go and meditate for two hours every day or whatever because it’s simply not practical
Rick: Yeah I wouldn’t either I mean it’s just what I do anyway to each his own and this whole thing about comparing oneself with those I mean you know I can’t play basketball like some famous star or I can’t write like you do or you know all kinds of things that I don’t do but I do what I do and you know if the the world we need variety is the spice of life and there are eight billion of us and we’re each unique and everybody has their contribution to make so you know we have to it’s called dharma in the you’re probably aware of this word that you know that course of action which for you is most appropriate and and through which you can be most effective
Theresa: Absolutely that’s where I’ve come to at the moment darling yes that’s where I’ve come to at the moment and whatever works for you as long as it harms no one and it makes you feel good about yourself, absolutely, it’s wonderful but to return to the angels as I said I have a very expansive interpretation of angels now and it does tend to be connecting to your better angels which I think is what the world needs at the moment. The more of us activate you know it’s in our DNA the you know being kind having empathy is actually in our DNA. Cultures that take care of each other, societies that take care of each other tend to survive so it’s necessary for evolution and I think increasingly in modern times the empathy gene has switched off for whatever reason and switching that back on again for me is igniting the aspiring angel within you and you know bringing and if you believe in unseen realms bringing the angels closer to Earth because it’s like a magnet empathy compassion love if there are unseen beings out there that draws them closer to you that’s how they speak to you
Rick: Yeah there’s a saying in sanskrit which is “the means collect around satwa.” And satwa means purity and by means it just means that there are impulses of intelligence, we could call them angels, which kind of um are involved in the way things happen in the world, they orchestrate things. And if you are more like them then they are able to align with you more they’re able to resonate with you more and be of greater assistance in the fulfillment of your desires because your desires are more in tune with sort of divine intentions.
Theresa: Absolutely absolutely beautiful I love that I love that
Rick: So we’re you know they they’re we’re not alone they they do exist within us but they also if we limit our
Theresa: But do you not think that what’s within us is also without us I mean I’ve got to you know that bliss is when there’s that beautiful merging between the force spiritual force within us with with what is outside us that it’s all one that there’s a sense of interconnection because when I have spoken to people who’ve had peak experiences or interviewed them for my books or whatever they talk about this interconnection and also near-death experiences people who say that they’ve died and gone to heaven I spoke to Eben Alexander but it’s this this blissful understanding that it’s all the same and that’s such a mind blowing mind opening concept that is hard to explain in human terms but for me what’s within and what’s without is one
Rick: Yeah, no you’re absolutely right and great sages like Ramana Maharshi and others have described this beautifully that they they’re not just philosophizing about it, it’s their living experience they are the oneness they are Brahman they are the totality and then there’s this little human body. I was just hearing a story last night from a swami I take classes from named Swami Sarvapriyananda and someone was saying to Ramakrishna who you know lived back in the 1800s mostly you know and who had gone through a number of difficulties in his life, people giving him a hard time and various health things and and someone was saying why is it that such a you know soul as you should have to suffer all these outrages you know it’s really not right and he said said you know if you forget the exact wording but if you think this little thing here is me you know you’re really not seeing the full picture. He said the same thing when he was dying of cancer people say oh you’re suffering and all that no no he says I am the universe how could I suffer I am the vastness that you’re just kind of identifying with this little entity this little physical form but that’s really not what I am.
Theresa: that’s a huge expansive way to look at it.
Rick: yeah I mean he wasn’t just yeah philosophizing
Theresa: that’s incredible um I mean why bad things happen to wonderful good people eternal question isn’t it and I’ve just come to the point now when you know I get so much mail about this just to say just keep asking why never stop asking why because in the asking of why you activate your compassion and your empathy because imagine we imagine a world where we knew why everything happened like we know why a woman screams in pain when she has a baby we aren’t that concerned are we we just think okay you know just imagine a world where we knew the reason for your friend having cancer or or someone, a child dying imagine if we knew we would not be kind or compassionate we’d be nonchalant and that’s not a world that I think I would want to live in so I’ve come to that point because you know these are questions that you know been asked since the beginning of time who is Theresa Cheung to be trying to be able to answer them you know because I do get asked them a lot and trying to come up with an answer for these, I’m sure you get asked them as well. You know um big big questions like that like what is life why are we here why do bad things happen to good people um there’s a part of me that would just love to have a great answer but I just say let’s just keep asking these questions because the more we ask questions the more we grow because I think when you know something, when something is known and certain sorted it’s almost like stagnant isn’t it?
Rick: yeah
Theresa: the growth stops
Rick: If you’re, especially if you’re adamant about it or if you’re insistent that it’s got to be this way then that that’s a problem.
Theresa: But we’re living in a world now where it’s so much like that, where it’s black and white, where people are just like “It’s my way or the highway” that’s the world way the world’s come. I I am, I know the answers this is what’s happening this is… you know we’ve lost this ability to be open-minded about other opinions that are different from our own.
Rick: Yeah
Theresa: That’s sad, that is really sad so yes we’re all dreaming more and we’re awakening but the sad part as well, as I’ve seen, as I’m sure you have in recent years–this closed-mindedness that’s happening as well where people have their fixed ideology and that’s it, that’s the answer.
Rick: Yeah there’s so many things going on. I think there’s an increased polarity taking place in the world and in many people’s psychologies and this thing about knowing things for certain I mean we you know you and I believe certain things that we’ve been discussing today and we believe that there’s an afterlife for instance but you know we’re not going to kill
Theresa: I could be wrong of course now that’s that everything
Rick: That’s the scientific attitude.
Theresa: I could be wrong about everything I have an opinion and I could be wrong about everything I’ve said to you and I’ll find out on the other side when…
Rick: That’s one of the principles of the scientific method: hypotheses should be falsifiable in order to be a valid hypothesis
Theresa: That’s why I love working with scientists because I’ve often asked them, especially ones like Dr. Beischel, the IONS crowd you know, Dean “Are you a believer?” They say to me that’s irrelevant, they often say to me that’s irrelevant. The science matters. “I’m a scientist first and a believer or a skeptic second.” I like that development.
Rick: Oprah was interviewing uh Eckhart Tolle and she did this
Theresa: I thought you were going to say Harry and Meghan.
Rick: It’s coming up but she did this thing where she started little sentences and had him finish them right and so one of the sentences was “I believe…” and then he said, “Nothing in particular.”
Theresa: you know I’m starting to say I don’t know and also I change, I do change my mind, opinions I had 10 20 years ago of course I’m a different person now I’ve evolved, I’ve learned. I’ve changed my mind and people find that very difficult. When I started out I was collecting all these angel stories. Angels are real. They’re these beings with wings and whatever it’s all it does evolve and change and I think that that’s something that people who follow you as we have in this world, if you become a public figure, struggle with I say, “Well actually that’s wrong, this is what I think now.” And that’s okay, it’s okay to change your mind but changing your mind seems to be considered a crime these days.
Rick: Yeah I was thinking of another Lincoln quote here. Someone accused him of changing his mind or something like that, about something. He just he spun it around and said you know that’s a good thing that I can change.
Theresa: It is a good thing, it is a good thing to be to be open-minded because that’s how the human race evolves surely. If we all know all the answers we don’t know. All of us are guessing here
Rick: It doesn’t mean that we don’t favor certain bodies of knowledge that we accumulate I mean you know we’re pretty darn sure the Earth is not flat although there are people who think it is.
Theresa: That documentary “The Flat Earth” I mean I Can’t believe it
Rick: Where is that on Netflix also? Oh I gotta see that one
Theresa: I’m spending way too much time on Netflix that’s what you’ve identified on this.
Rick: but yeah I yeah yeah and you know we know that people landed on the moon but there are people who think we didn’t but you know so it’s not like we have to be total wishy-washy you know people who don’t favor one perspective over another but you just can’t take it to the point of absolute adamancy
Theresa: No. Well there are only two things we know–we’re going to be born and we’re going to die those are the answers, and taxes but we do know those two things. That’s all we really know. Everything else why are we here, why are even alive?
Rick: We know we’re conscious or we know that consciousness somehow is.
Theresa: But are we? You know when we when you have a very realistic dream.
Rick: Could be but then we’re conscious in that dream there’s…
Theresa: What’s happening? Where do we go? Everything in this life is a mystery and if you have that attitude I think that’s a wonderfully exciting way to live it’s a expert I have come to expect the unexpected all the time
Rick: Yeah I could make a joke now and ask you to talk about something really crazy that you have no idea what because that would be unexpected but anyway I won’t do that. So let’s see
Theresa: Would you like to know about Harry and Meghan
Rick: No I don’t care. I wish them well.
Theresa: I’ve said I’ve been doing radio stations is it’s you know about dreaming or spirituality and then they hear my accent especially overseas and they want my opinion on Harry and Meghan it’s fun
Rick: Yeah I’d rather rather hear about the Beatles but then you’re not from Liverpool.
Theresa: Oh the Beatles yes yes how many Brits have been on BatGap? I know you Had Tim
Rick: Quite a few others, that fellow I was listening to Brit
Theresa: A former Brit Gap BatGap.
Rick: We have a thing called Brit Box over here that you can watch British [films]. Irene watches it but maybe I should call it Bat Box, but who is that guy who’s friends with with Eckhart Tolle who he’s written the… Yeah I’ve had Steve on I was just listening to him.
Theresa: Yes Steve Taylor
Rick: In fact I want to email him because he mentioned something in your interview with him that I found fascinating which was that he finds himself feeling blissful at funerals and he thinks people would think that’s strange but I want to say me too and it was not so much funerals but when both of my parents died I felt tremendous sort of upwelling of bliss and not that I was happy they died but and in my father’s case I didn’t even know he had died and I was just having this amazing day I was thinking wow this is wonderful I feel so good today what’s going on and then later I found out he had died the night before. I think it’s somehow that we participate in their release, their..
Theresa: But they also return to you in spirit, don’t they? They can always be with you in your memories, in your dreams, and in your heart. It’s a kind of a fuller, richer relationship in some ways because when someone’s in their physical form it’s limited by time and space
Rick: Yeah
Theresa: and when someone dies that relationship in spirit… and that’s that’s the wonderful thing that you have lost someone that eventually you come to a point when you enter into this new relationship in spirit and realize how rich and full it is
Rick: yeah and in the case of my parents they both lived very difficult lives My father had a lot of PTSD from World War II and alcoholism and my mother [had] all sorts of psychological problems but in any case, I felt with both of them they must have experienced quite a delightful transition from what they had been experiencing to boom that release and somehow I partook of this.
Theresa: Well if you’ve ever sat with people who have passed it’s quite you know the peace, the peace– I mean obviously not always, but when I you know in my teens I worked in a hospice and that was very powerful experience holding someone’s hand and but instinctively when I was with them you just sense that something, the spirit when the spirit goes it’s it is a blissful release.
Rick: Did you ever hear what Steve Jobs said just as he was dying?
Theresa: “Oh wow!”
Rick: Exactly. Three times.
Theresa: “Oh wow!” three times. He was such an intuitive man as well he went “oh wow!” what was he seeing what was he seeing? but you instinctively feel that the body becomes like a coat that they’ve taken off. That’s what it is, it’s no longer them. That’s why I’m not actually big on funerals in a way. I’ve because I know that that beautiful Mary Fry poem I always love quoting “Do not stand at my grave and weep, You know I am not there, I do not sleep. I’m the wind that blows.” It’s just so beautiful idea, way of understanding death.
Rick: Yeah in the Vedanta tradition there they’re what they call koshas or sheaths and the the physical body is the outermost sheath it’s called the annamaya kosha which means “food” kosha because the body is made of food and then there’s the the breath the pranamaya kosha the the mind the manomaya kosha the the intellect and then the innermost one is the bliss sheath the anandamaya kosha and when when the physical body dies it’s believed that all your shedding is the outermost sheath and that the others still exist and function on whatever realm you end up in
Theresa: These are beautiful representations isn’t it of the same thing how you know every culture has given beautiful interpretations of this this release that Steve was talking about I agree this… but you know I don’t want to glamorize death in any way and I’m conscious when I have written afterlife books to not deny, you know that death is this great adventure you’re going to we’re here on this Earth for a very important reason because this Earth is almost a bit like school we’ve got an important things to learn and there’s you can have heaven on Earth
Rick: Oh absolutely yeah
Theresa: you and people often say the afterlife is you can experience it right now through what you say what you do what you feel you I believe actually that you create the kind of afterlife you will experience by what you’re feeling thinking and doing that we actually create through our through our lives and that’s why you know the concept of does a serial killer go back to that thing? Do they go to heaven? Do they have this blissful relief? They shouldn’t surely if they’ve been horrible, they’ve killed lots of people, What happens to them in the afterlife that’s another question I get and I think that in the afterlife just as in this life the learning continues and I believe that the spirit of someone who has been evil will have to feel what their victims felt or the people they hurt so there’s empathy
Rick: Have you ever heard Dannion Brinkley’s story? He’s one of these well-known near-death experience people and he had four NDEs, twice getting struck by lightning and two in heart surgeries and in each and he had been a sharpshooter in Vietnam, killing people. What he experienced was a life review in each NDE in which he experienced the consequences of his actions from the perspective of the people whom they influenced and the families of those people and so on. He had to go through everything they experienced as a result of having their loved one killed and
Theresa: What an awesome thought
Rick: Yeah so that and he doesn’t I mean he’s dedicated his life to helping people in hospice situations and things like that now but it’s kind of interesting to hear him describe it because it’s not like a punishment it’s more like a learning
Theresa: Learning it’s it’s growth, yes so that that’s not that… I don’t believe in hell but it’s the learning I think on the other side, but also what an awesome thought because near-death experiences classically talk about the life review don’t they? Watching your life again typically in reverse and I always think well do I really want to watch my life again if I’m doing something I don’t if I’m doing something I’m not proud of. I’m gonna have to see this again? That’s often very powerful for me, if I do something that is not in line with you know my values or my higher self or whatever and I think well do I want to watch this again and that’s a really you’re gonna have to watch it all again you’re gonna live every interview again.
Rick: Right, well that’d be okay they’ve been fun but even now don’t you have the experience, I do, that you often will relive or dwell upon something that happened many many years ago and you’re kind of… particularly you know negative things I’ve done that have hurt people and I just sort of go through it and I feel like I’m kind of processing it and reaching out for forgiveness to the person and things like that
Theresa: We’ve all we’re all human we all have a shadow side and why we do I don’t know but we do and but I think in those cases especially if you have hurt someone and you can’t reach out to them or they don’t want to communicate anymore I think there’s there is great value in sending them positive energy that you know sending them the energy that you understand that because a lot of people they want to know how you made them feel and I think they a lot of people want to be seen and heard and I think if I and if they say won’t communicate with you just sending them that healing energy I think can have a dramatic effect not only on yourself but also on them in an unseen way so
Rick: Yeah
Theresa: I just say that to anyone listening if you’re feuding with someone or there’s animosity or you’ve hatred, I hate that term, but you know we have it all within us, just try for three days to send them compassion and it makes a radical difference, a radical difference it’s a big shift it’s a big shift but you can do it
Rick: Yeah I heard a story on the radio the other day about this guy who when he was 14 had killed another boy and then he had spent many many years in prison even though he was 14 when he did it and eventually the the father of the boy he had killed had come to prison and had befriended him or maybe he had written to the father I don’t know but they have become like dear friends and the guy who killed the the other guy’s son now works for an organization that that he has established that they’re they’re kind of helping people with forgiveness and helping you know you know helping people who have been through experiences like that so obviously…
Theresa: I think forgiveness is a forgotten word these days actually I think there’s not enough emphasis in spirituality on we talk about love and compassion and empathy. Forgiveness I think is something that’s a little bit neglected in the spiritual repertoire– forgiveness of ourselves as well as others.
Rick: Works both ways That father of the boy if he had just continued hating this kid all of his life it would have been eating away at him.
Theresa: You give over your power
Rick: Yeah, instead something beautiful came out of it. So what haven’t we covered? You’ve written so many books. Shall we talk about psychic cats?
Theresa: Yes. Do you know after I went on Russell Brand and the most bonkers interview ever, actually this was because up until Russell Brand which was a few years ago I really hadn’t done much media because I do try and practice what I preach and I very much feel that spiritual books are something that people find that they don’t need to be marketed I really do believe.
Rick: Probably your publishers are bugging you to get out and promote more.
Theresa: Yes or I should stop doing what I’m doing and go on a retreat something or go to the monastery or nunnery wherever I wanted to go but it was one of the first ones I did really and he mentioned psychic cats and since then it’s had a bit of a resurgence. yeah it is people basically and I’d annoys me because Rupert Sheldrake wrote about the telepathic bond between human and dog. he is not that because he’s a scientist however Theresa Cheung you know she writes about it let’s have a good old laugh you know and it’s but I suppose it played into the stereotype of as a woman of a certain age who lives with cats and thinks she’s psychic but basically it’s a beautiful book. I had a cat when I was growing up that was my best friend. I had it for about nearly 20 years and died just before I went to Cambridge. That beautiful cat was I think a fur angel and that inspired the book. Then people write to me about how their cats have sensed how they feel. I mean cats are used in hospital settings as well as dogs I mean I’m now very I have both two cats and two dogs at the moment and it can work there is an apartheid in our house you know but it can work I love them both and I think animals are I think actually you can tell a lot about a person the way they treat animals
Rick: We’ve had, Irene in particular, but I think I also experienced this with a couple of our cats. Or even maybe dogs when they died, is some kind of afterlife message or communication or something from them.
Theresa: “Pets from Heaven,” yes
Rick: Was that one of your books, “Pets From Heaven”? to write it but I changed it actually in the end after. I get a lot of messages from people because you know actually the relationship between a human and their pet can sometimes be one of the most important relationships in a person’s life and I I think pet bereavement is a big under-neglected area that you know these are their best friends sometimes and people do have afterlife experiences involving their cat or their dog or their horse or their rabbit. And it’s not to be laughed at because love in any form is valid. I believe animals have souls. I believe that they have empathy. They’re natural empaths. Dogs are natural empaths you know and when that goes from your life it’s tough. I think you can connect with pets on the other, you can connect to pets on the other side
Rick: Have you had Rupert Sheldrake on your podcast?
Theresa: I haven’t actually, I must do but you know I do get annoyed that he wasn’t he wasn’t laughed at.
Rick: Oh he gets laughed at, believe me, a lot of people think he’s a nutcase, yeah.
Theresa: Well anyone in this area does, even the IONS scientists they get a lot of flack, don’t they? But that’s okay that’s okay I get laughed at but you know as I said this year not so much, Rick. I took a pandemic to unleash me but now people are seeking out spiritual insight. I wouldn’t say guidance I don’t think I guide. I just offer a perspective
Rick: What are you saying? Irene’s saying something. He’s shows psychic abilities all the time. Yeah
Theresa: Is that your dog?
Rick: Irene saying he shows psychic abilities like yeah right like if we even think about going someplace, taking a walk or something, we have to be really really careful because even thinking the thought he’s like “whoa!” His ears perk up. Maybe there are some kind of signals we’re letting out or something I don’t know but
Theresa: It’s unconditional love as well and that to me is an angel so I think that pets can be angels, but that’s your next guest to see
Rick: Yeah Theo
Theresa: You’ll have Theo for two hours. I bet you that would get more…
Rick: I’d show you one of them but she’s fast asleep. Irene can pick… maybe I should pick her up. Oh what is what is… Pick Luna up. What is Luna?
Theresa: Can I see you please?
Rick: Yeah here comes Theo over, yeah you can hold Theo over her. Don’t actually give Theo to me.
Theresa: I think he’s got to be on there
Rick: There he is, that’s Theo. is it He’s a psychic Chiweenie
Theresa: So this is where I know that I’m wealthy because I say to people if people offered me a billion dollars or my doggie, I’d choose my dog. So I’m wealthy already. Beautiful dog you have. Theo is gorgeous Theo rock, right?
Rick: This is Luna. Isn’t she pretty?
Theresa: This is the future for BatGap
Rick: Yeah
Theresa: Oh that dog. Love(s) you. Look at that, look.
Rick: Yeah
Theresa: Oh oh oh no you go no I can’t talk about anything else, I’m thinking doggy oh
Rick: We used to have a couple of cats sometimes one of them would walk in front of the camera like this. You’d see its tail going across.
Theresa: Oh they’re lovely, they’re lovely. They’re great companions and the way you treat animals says a lot about you as a person.
Rick: People like Gandhi and others have said similar things you know and Jesus, of course, said what you do “whatsoever you do unto the least of these, you do unto me.”
Theresa: Yes I agree I think that we are creating a…the barbaric way that animals are treated, we’re creating a very negative energy and force in the world. I mean I’m not advocating obviously…I’m a vegetarian, of course I would be, but you know I don’t have anything against people who aren’t as long as the animals are treated humanely. It’s cruelty against animals it’s one of the reasons I think I said this on Russell [Brand], that I went off social media for several years because some of the images of animal cruelty I literally I couldn’t cope I found them too upsetting because I’d replay them in my mind and I had managed to deal with it now but I just cannot understand how anyone could be cruel to it’s the innocence I think
Rick: yeah that’s why people love them it’s the innocence
Theresa: Yeah the trust
Rick: Again it all comes back to… like here’s an analogy, if you had a knife let’s say that was sharp on both ends and didn’t have a handle and you stab somebody with that knife you’re also cutting your own hand you know. I think any kind of mistreatment of people or animals or anything else is like that knife it hurts them but it hurts you just as much if not more
Theresa: Well it’s that beautiful thing: when you point a finger there’s one
Rick: Exactly, “there’s three pointing back at you.”
Theresa: Yeah yeah so it’s like you know god yeah yeah exactly yeah
Rick: Yeah all righty so is there anything else that we want to cover that you’re going to not be able to sleep and dream tonight because we hadn’t covered once you once we hang up and you just…?
Theresa: No I’m just just love it. I really am very grateful for the opportunity and to talk to you and I’m so glad I found your channel
Rick: Yeah
Theresa: Spread the word about it and I’m just very grateful. Thank you.
Rick: Well let’s stay in touch. I can I can recommend some people to you who you might not be aware of that might be good to have on your podcast, and you’re connected with all kinds of people that you can tell us about.
Theresa: Absolutely, any guest on my podcast you’d like their contact just let me know. As I say Christopher Johnson, he’s a very eloquent man, former member of a cult and the Netflix documentary “Holy Hell” was you know, it’s very famous and he makes a powerful and memorable appearance in that. He will get a lot of interest. You know Eben Alexander
Rick: We had him scheduled at one point, sort of tentatively, but then it kind of fell through the cracks–that was like five or six years ago. We should do that.
Theresa: Oh yes you’ve got to let me know and I’ll connect you. He would love to. He’s in a place in his life now when that’s what he’s doing. He’s just spreading the word. Just try to think because obviously you want names that are going to draw
Rick: We can do it afterwards too I mean by emails we can communicate about this. Irene chooses the guests and schedules them.
Theresa: thank you Irene
Rick: She’s saying ‘thank you, Irene.’
Rick: She’s the power behind the throne.
Rick: She’s the power behind the throne I don’t know, I think she’s on the throne.
Theresa: Oh gosh no but I’m just ashamed you don’t want me to do my Harry and Meghan commentary.
Rick: Well if you insist.
Theresa: Well it’s taken over over here in the UK at the moment, the media’s awash with it. It’s ridiculous. People are having opinions about it and you know it’s…
Rick: Well it’s almost that same principle we’ve been discussing where people project something on to others and think of them as special and they should consume all the airtime because they’re so famous or whatever and we’re not princes and princesses and they are I don’t know it just seems kind of, it’s a form of entertainment more than anything.
Theresa: It is entertainment it’s but what happened in your country especially last year is that your your politics in particular became better than a Netflix series I mean we over here in the UK we’re watching it like next installment and like on the edge of our seat.
Rick: Like a horror movie.
Theresa: what do you what happened to America in your opinion what happened.
Rick: I don’t know. I have been following the whole conspiracy theory thing a lot. I’ve interviewed three guys who have a podcast called “Conspirituality” where they talk about the incursion of conspiracy thinking into the spiritual world, spiritual community but obviously whatever’s going on in America it goes far beyond just spiritual communities there’s and you’ve probably seen the Netflix documentary uh what is it called the one about about social, “The Social Dilemma” that’s it.
Theresa: Yes oh my goodness.
Rick: So everybody’s kind of going down their own rabbit holes and getting more and more polarized and as you were saying earlier being more kind of entrenched in their particular perspectives and not not being broad-minded to see multiple perspectives and and the whole social media thing reinforces that and it’s you know it’s made politics unworkable it’s made families unable
Theresa: To divide
Rick: To talk to each other and so some are rather…that’s gotta…we’ve gotta move beyond all that.
Theresa: Obviously I’m here in, I’m a Brit based author but you know as I said I had this opportunity last year to go on “Coast to Coast” for two hours. I did two hours of dream decoding. It was wonderful. They were really kind but it was kind of going into that work because obviously being on the line for two hours and the adverts I was hearing and the and it was all “China Virus” and I’m thinking oh god Theresa Cheung
Rick: Oh yeah.
Theresa: It was really kind of quite unsettling and you know having my surname that I do although I’m not Chinese my my husband is. It was kind of…I couldn’t believe it. I was in this like… I but also what I found when I went into that two hour on “Coast to Coast” was I could understand why people were believing this because there was a very family feel there was a sense of belonging you believe this and we’ll give you this and you belong it felt very almost weirdly reassuring because all the thinking had been done for you so it was kind of a comforting experience also going into that world. I mean they treated me very. They were lovely actually. I had no complaints but it was… not I didn’t expect that
Rick: I think another feature of is you get into a certain group like QAnon or something and you feel like oh now I’m kind of in the inner circle I really understand what’s going on you know aren’t I special and all these other people are just sheeple who are being duped by the mainstream media and they’re they’re blind and it gives you a sense of superiority, or it aggrandizes your ego then you get a hit on that.
Theresa: It’s very seductive but it was an…
Rick: It’s like that with regular cults too you know. My guru is the best guru and and we’re also enlightened and everybody else is sub subpar
Theresa: everybody wants to feel special but we can we can all feel special in our own unique way. We don’t need to belong to a group you know we can become… I think there’s stages aren’t There’s being, belonging, becoming, and bliss I think of life like that and I think we we go through those stages in our life , catch glimpses of bliss along the way
Rick: Yeah
Theresa: But you know
Rick: Groucho Marx said “I wouldn’t want to join a club that would accept me as a member.” [Laughter]
Theresa: Yeah that’s brilliant, that’s brilliant.
Rick: Alrighty, well you and I could go on for another two hours, but…
Theresa: Oh I love talking oh but you’re just a gracious host thank you, thank you I love
Rick: Thanks. Theresa it’s been a lot of fun and the people watching have remained fairly consistently high up in the 200 zone despite all of our frivolity so uh hopefully they found this entertaining.
Theresa: And if you just want to skip to the end and say watch the Disney Pixar movie “Soul”– that says everything I want to say about life. Got to see that.
Rick: Got to see that.
Theresa: Beautiful. You’ve got to please please. I’d love your thoughts on it because it’s where I’m at now actually. It’s wonderful
Rick: Cool. I think I have to find out where it is where we can watch that. Okay
Theresa: It’s finding meaning where you don’t think you’re going to find, It’s all about that that meaning isn’t found where we all think it is.
Rick: Yeah I’ve heard good things about it. Okay, well on that note, let’s wrap it up but we’ll be in touch and keep cranking out the books. Maybe we’ll do another interview when you hit the 200 mark.
Theresa: Absolutely I’m going to and you get to the thousand
Rick: Yeah I’ll get to the thousand interviews, you get to the 200 books.
Theresa: Probably when you go to the other side, you’ll be interviewing all the angels as well. I can see it.
Rick: I probably will. You know this whole thing started…I was in this group and we met every Wednesday night for about three hours in in a little living room in some guy’s apartment, and we sometimes packed like living room and it was we just had this spiritual discussion that went on for about three hours and it was really kind of profound and I really got a high off it. But I would kind of interview people, I would start probing people and asking them questions. The ground rule was you’re supposed to just talk about your own experience and so the guy, the host of the thing kept saying “Stop interviewing people, you’re interviewing people.” And finally he was the one that pushed me to start this show. He said, “You know, you should really be interviewing people. Why don’t you start?”
Theresa: that’s your yeah that’s what you got going, what you are…natural. That’s your curiosity, but curiosity is again is another foundation stone of spiritual, is spirituality for me. Curiosity is a really important part of the spiritual journey
Rick: yeah I think we both have that and probably a lot of people who are watching this do too it’s like life is so fascinating and there’s just uh so many interesting things and people and
Theresa: once you dip your toe into this you never there’s you’re never bored again
Rick: yeah
Theresa: because there’s always more to learn isn’t there and to discover in this journey.
Rick: yeah boredom, I don’t think I felt bored for decades. I don’t know what it feels like. Because everything is fascinating.
Theresa: It is, it is. Including sleep and dreams
Rick: Absolutely Yeah yeah all right so let’s stop rambling
Theresa: Thank you, thank you Irene. I know she’s there.
Rick: She stepped out of the room but…
Theresa: Oh okay, well thank please thank her for me
Rick: and thank you to those who’ve been listening or watching. I hope you enjoyed this one.
Theresa: Well done for sticking with us.Thank you.
Rick: Thanks for hanging in there. We’re both a couple of goofballs obviously but so maybe it’s just the goofballs stayed with us.
Theresa: Yes thank you, thank you.
Rick: Anyway next week I’m going to interview a guy named Rabbi Rami Shapiro. I’m going to try and experiment with it because you know we we send out a form to the people whom I’m going to interview and we asked them “What do you want Rick to watch? What do you want Rick to read?” and all this stuff. He said, “I don’t want you to watch anything or read anything. I want you to just know nothing about me and we’re going to have a conversation.” which is the way Larry King used to do it. He didn’t want to know anything about his guests, so I’ll try that next week. I won’t know anything about this guy. I can’t tell you anything about him now.
Theresa: Rick you’re going to, you’re going to google [him] you know are.
Rick: No, no I’m going to resist. I’m going to listen to other stuff all week and read other stuff I have a lot to catch up on.
Theresa: You’re going to google I predict. I’m going to be a precog you’re going to
Rick: Oh now I can’t because you said I would. Anyway that’s what’s happening next week. So thanks for listening or watching and visit batgap.com and check out the menus see what’s there you know you can sign up to be notified by email of new interviews you can subscribe to the audio podcast and if you’re watching on Youtube which you probably are please subscribe to the channel. If you wish and once you hit the subscribe button a little bell pops up and if you hit the bell also then they they will notify you when a new thing comes rather than just sporadically. Anyway thanks and we’ll see you next week. Thanks, Theresa.
Theresa: Thank you. Bye bye.
Rick: Talk to you later.