Pujyashree Deepakbhai Desai – Batgap Interview (#127)
June 16, 2012
Rick: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer, and my guest this week is Deepakbhai. And actually I am his guest because I have come up to Chicago from Iowa to interview him in person. And so it is a great joy to be here and thank you for the opportunity.
Now, I have been explaining to Deepakbhai before we started recording that the purpose of this show is to demonstrate to those who watch it that a lot of people these days are having spiritual awakenings and it almost seems to be an epidemic; more and more people all over the world and it is taking many different expressions. It’s not exclusive to any one group or path or teaching or anything else, but it seems to be becoming commonplace and its being facilitated I think by the internet which enables people to see a discussion like this which 50 years ago would not have been possible.
Now, Deepakbhai, of course, himself had a spiritual awakening many years ago at a very young age and we are going to talk about that. And he is a teacher with quite a wide following – quite a high degree of popularity around the world and in India. And he teaches something called Gnan Vidhi which he learnt from his teacher who was referred to as Dada Bhagwan. So I thought maybe we could start if you like by just talking a little bit about what Gnan Vidhi is and then we will take it from there.
Deepakbhai: Gnan Vidhi means getting awareness of pure soul and Dada Bhagwan is a spiritual person. He got realization in 1958, and he himself was searching who is God, where is God and what is the true address of God, how karma is building up, how he can come out from all karma cycle and what is ultimate salvation. So he was searching from the childhood and he says from so many births I am searching this, what is reality, what is universal truth and he got in 1958 realization of what is universal truth. He has experienced pure soul within himself as well as what is reality of this universe. What are the eternal elements, how they come in contact with each other, what are the properties, what are the phases of eternal elements, everything he has experienced and biggest thing who is governing this whole universe? He has realized that thing. And he has passed this knowledge to his disciple or say followers. And Dr. Niruben Amin, Niruma, we called, she got self-realization in 1968 from Dada Bhagwan, and I got this knowledge of
self-realization in 1971. One thing I want to clear that Dada Bhagwan means himself body is not Dada Bhagwan. He says this body is given name A.M. Patel, Ambalal M. Patel and inside pure soul; absolute pure soul is Dada Bhagwan. He himself says I am a Gnani, self-realized person, Gnani Purush. So like that three divisions he has experienced.
Rick: Bhagwan means God, right?
Deepakbhai: Yes.
Rick: Dada means what? Father?
Deepakbhai: Grandfather.
Rick: Grandfather. Right. And so he is saying obviously this body is named Patel, grew up in Gujarat and so on, but it is within that the Bhagwan quality has awakened.
Deepakbhai: Absolute pure soul, is a god.
Rick: And he was aware of that? Right?
Deepakbhai: Yes, experience of that.
Rick: So would that be how you would define self-realization as awakening to your true nature as Bhagwan.
Deepakbhai: No. Who am I? Because see physical body whatever we are suffering we believe that I am suffering. Some thoughts are coming, bad or good; we are thinking I am thinking. Something whatever speech comes out bad or good, we believe that I am speaking. Really who is the doer and who am I? That we must know, and he got that realization in 1958, and he has passed this knowledge through our Gnan Ceremony. It is called Gnan Vidhi, separation of I and My, temporary and permanent, real and relative; and we get awareness of reality who am I within one hour. Two-hour experience is there. Within second hour we can remain in the awareness of the pure soul that is protection for awareness of pure soul. So he has given that knowledge in Gnan Ceremony, Gnan Vidhi.
Rick: I have never done Gnan Vidhi, but I am going to do it tomorrow. So I will put this to the test.
Deepakbhai: Definitely.
Rick: And when you say awareness of pure soul, you know realization that I am not just this body – there must be degrees of that. I mean you can explain that to a person. You can sit down and say, well, you know obviously you are not the body because the body changes, but you don’t change and so on, but that could just be an idea or a philosophical concept for the person and I think what you are talking about is more real experience, not just the concept, right?
Deepakbhai: Yes, correct. Experience means he has realized in such a way that there are so many questions in this world. We must get answer for that. Why this is happening? To whom it is happening? Who am I? How this is governing? Everything, so many doubts about spirituality. And he got answer for that spirituality. And we are also getting such knowledge. Not a single question in mind remains pending. We can get ultimate solution for each and every question.
Rick: Even simple practical questions.
Deepakbhai: Yes, definitely.
Rick: Like should I study Chemistry, or should I study Biology; you are saying that if you have this Gnan Vidhi then there is kind of inner intuition which guides you which way to go?
Deepakbhai: In spirituality we must know permanency. What is permanent and what is temporary. So when we experience permanent thing then we do not have suffering of any temporary thing. Just like a child he feels my doll is broken, so he feels sorry for that, he feels sad for that, but once he grows up he understands that this is temporary, and this doll is just for playing. So after growing up he understands that there should not be any worry if doll is breaking or whatever happens. Like that worldly things, somebody dies, something breaking, somebody lost money, still he feels that I am losing money, I lost my person, I have some disease. So at that time we feel oneness with body and that part gives suffering, worries, tension, stress. Once we know who am I? I am permanent, I am pure soul then all this temporary things won’t touch me. It would not give me bad effect. I can remain aloof from that. I can remain separate from that. And I can remain in my inner bliss.
Rick: Now I first became aware of this sort of idea – of you know that I am more than this body when I was, I don’t know, maybe 17 years old and then I learnt to meditate when I was 18 and kept meditating and you know it has taken, not as 44 years ago, but so there has been a gradual and sometimes profound but growth of appreciation of that. And in the beginning it was maybe kind of flimsy, not very stable, and then over the years it has gotten more and more and more stable. When I read your website and hear you talk you say within one hour – you know this thing. So it must be, to my way understanding it must be sure one gets a good taste of it in one hour but then there must be a process over time where it grows and becomes more stable, is that correct?
Deepakbhai: Yes, correct. But one thing I can say suppose I want to go to airport and if I miss my address and I go reverse, opposite way – 50 mile away from the airport, so if I ask somebody where is my true address, how can I go there, but I can get understanding within very few moments. He explains” oh! this is wrong way, you just take U-turn and take this road, so and so”. So I can understand within few seconds, but 50 miles away so I have to come back to 50 miles and then 5 miles towards airport so that will take time, but correct understanding, true address of pure soul I will get definitely within one hour.
Rick: And then once you have that understanding, once a person has that understanding can they lose it again or is it that you don’t forget it once you have it?
Deepakbhai: Suppose he follows the instructions given by experienced person then he will reach airport, definitely.
Rick: As long as he stays with the instructions.
Deepakbhai: He has to follow the instructions.
Rick: He could get off the route again.
Deepakbhai: Suppose, he feels that I don’t want to follow this, whatever I am doing my path is correct, further instead of 50 miles he may go away from airport far away, we can’t say…But if he follow the words what Dada Bhagwan has explained then that will help. Everyday he will reach towards airport…towards pure soul, absolute pure soul.
Rick: Is it possible to say in an interview like this…what actually happens during Gnan Vidhi, so as to give that understanding.
Deepakbhai. Yes. What is your name?
Rick: Rick.
Deepakbhai: So you say, I am Rick.
Rick: That’s my name.
Deepakbhai: Yes then you say my name is Rick. So what is true? You are Rick or your name is Rick…What you will say? So who are you? Who says I am the owner of this name?
Rick: That is harder to answer at words.
Deepakbhai: Worldly people they don’t know I am separate from my name, my body, my thoughts, my speech, my actions. They believe that I am Rick only. So this is my wife…,my house…my children. So everything belonging must be separate from the owner. So here Dada Bhagwan says separate I and My. You say this is my body. You never say I am body. So who is the I.? He must be separate from My. If I say this is my house then owner of this house must be separate from the house. So like that my body, my hand, my leg, my head, my eyes, my ear, my fingers. So I must be separate from all this my department. Separate I and My. My body, so you keep separate and you are separate from this body. My speech, speech is separate from I. Then my thoughts, thoughts are separate from I. So I want to realize who am I. Then separate I from My. My thoughts, my intellect, my ego. I never say I am ego; my ego. Then outer world things, worldly things – my wife, my children, my business, my property, my practice – everything goes in my department. What comes in I? I without my pure soul.
So absolute I is a pure soul, is a God. So by Gnan Ceremony we are separating we are giving right belief who am I and we are dissolving all wrong beliefs. You are not this, you are this. You are not this, you are this. All this relative are temporary adjustment. And real is permanent. So we are getting belief of permanency, who am I. Then if we follow Dada’s five principles, five Agya that will help to reach to absolute stage.
Rick: So the Gnan Vidhi then enables, it starts the process of discrimination between self and nonself.
Deepakbhai: Yes.
Rick: Or between true I and all things that are external to it.
Deepakbhai: Temporary things and permanent things.
Rick: Right. And then there are five principles you say which if practiced lead to an integration or stabilization of this understanding.
Deepakbhai: Yes, understanding and experience of pure soul. That will increase our experience. First, we get firm determination who am I. Then if you practice five principles that will give you awareness and ultimately you will reach to the full experience of pure soul.
Rick: Would it be relevant to say in brief what those five principles are, or would you rather have that…
Deepakbhai: Who is the doer? How the relative and real are separate. That explanation. Those kind of things.
Rick: Is it easy for people who are living a very hectic, busy life, you know businessman, drive, commuting, on phone all day, can he do this sort of thing.
Deepakbhai: I am also engineer. I am doing my business. And I am fully occupied in my business 16 hours to 18 hours per day. Still both things relative and real they are parallel. They are not one. They are separate. So I can remain in awareness of pure soul in reality, and Deepak my first neighbor is doing business.
Rick: Right.
Deepakbhai: So both things can be done simultaneously, relative and real. Relative is the doer and real is the knower. Both things can happen.
So for businessman, worldly people, married people they can follow very well, and they get good help of this knowledge.
Rick: Some people might take to it more successfully than others. Just I am suggesting, just as maybe some people are better golfers or baseball players or piano players. They have certain aptitude. I mean you yourself were ardent spiritual seeker from a young age and you met a great master at a young age and you really dedicated yourself to this much more fully. Is the degree of success based upon aptitude in anyway or once effort – how much effort one puts into it or how qualified the person is or is it pretty much universally successful.
Deepakbhai: He must have interest. He is a seeker. I want to know reality. And at least one hour or half an hour he should spend per day to understand the spiritual science, because this is a new philosophy, and whatever we are believing – it is a wrong belief. In worldly things whatever we are believing that is really opposite of reality. So if we understand this spiritual science it will take time. Just like chemistry or physics or whatever algebra we are practicing in school or college, it is taking time. In medicine also, in medical science once he gets admission in medical college he does not become a doctor. So he has to learn at least five years, theory and practical. Just like we say you should be in touch with us, theory as well as practical, you will get more and more understanding, more and more awareness and more and more experience.
Rick: And what does the person do during that half hour to an hour a day.
Deepakbhai: Just what we are explaining; see one thing who has bonded us, not person, not evidence, we are bonded due to our wrong belief and wrong understanding. So blunders and mistakes is the biggest bondage to us. So in Gnan Ceremony our blunders are removed, but mistakes are there. So we have to remove all mistakes. So we are getting flawless vision. After that we have to find out our own mistake in worldly relation, practice, we are having some problem, anger, pride, deceit, greed, attachment, hatred if we hurt somebody, we have got some suffering from other person. So whatever things, we are suffering, or we hurt anybody, so we have to find our fault, and if we see our fault and if we remove our fault, so we will get more and more liberation within, so that we want. We have to find out our faults. We have to see flawless vision for every person.
Rick: So you provide a method for seeing one’s faults more clearly and for removing them.
Deepakbhai: Yes. Simple say Dada Bhagwan fault is of the sufferer who is suffering.
Rick: So if you can discriminate between the sufferer and knower then the faults began to evaporate.
Deepakbhai: We can visualize our faults and that is helping to come out from our faults. So we can adjust with all people, we can adjust with the circumstantial evidence, and we should not see any fault of other person. Whenever something happens bad to us or somebody may insult, somebody may cheat us, still you said this successful people, or somebody may not get success then he gets suffering, he gets depression also. At that time, this knowledge will help that person. Why this is happening in my life. So he gets solution and he can understand this is relative, this is temporary, I am real, I am permanent, so that will help him for stable condition.
Rick: So it seems that the key point is being able to distinguish between the temporary and permanent and having grown in that ability to the point where it is really stable in ones life. You don’t easily get deluded by temporary things, and I was reading in Dada Bhagwan’s book, he was talking about degrees of separation how there may be kind of a gross level of it and subtler level and then subtlest level and maybe we can talk about that little bit. It seems like it is not like instantly complete realization of separation but there must be layer after layer after layer of maybe you would say wrong belief or wrong understanding or perhaps even there is sort of physiological component to it in the nervous system that talk of some scars, you know deep impressions that bind us. Am I kind of going along the right lines here? Is there progression from gross to subtle to subtlest?
Deepakbhai: Yes, simple, we can say there are three stages, from determination then awareness and experience. So initially we get who am I, right belief, that is final, and it remains continuously within who am I and who am I not. This relative part and real part, they are total separate. Really who am I? That my understanding will clear. First step. Then second step is my awareness. Now this knowledge is given, we have fully discharge karma. So many karmas are there. We have not finished that karma. We have not dissolved that karma. So result of karma will come. So due to force of karma, discharge karma, our awareness may disturb, because the karmic force is more, and my awareness is less. So I cannot remain in correct awareness at that time. So at that time, I have to practice what happened to this relative part. How I am separate. My awareness I have to improve. Once I can remain in awareness of pure soul if I practice five principles of Dada Bhagwan that helps to remove the karmic force. And once the karmic force dissolves, my experience will be there and that experience remains constant, and slowly-slowly, I get experience of pure soul in higher degree. So what we have to ultimately get is experience of pure soul, and that remains constant – permanent. So here initially we have experience of body, mind, ego, and that is we have oneness with these relative things, now we are getting experience of reality – permanency and that will slowly-slowly increase.
Rick: Yes, as an example for instance of what you are saying – there are many challenging situations that happen to people, they might get an injury for instance, like I hurt my hand a while back carrying a box and running into something, very painful, and it is definitely you know people who say they have no sense of individuality that they are just you know the absolute. When you undergo a strong experience like that its definitely happening to me and it is not happening to the table, but there is still a dimension even when that happened of silence underlying, and I guess with that silence that is there and the awareness, it makes it easier to bear injuries, insults and you know calamities in life. So I think what you are saying is the more that self-realization grows, things are still going to happen, but there is a foundation which makes things more tolerable.
Deepakbhai: Tolerable not at all but you can feel separation. It is hand of Rick, not yours, total separate.
Rick: So there is a sense of Rick is experiencing this pain, you know.
Deepakbhai: He will experience, but I know he is experiencing just like you are experiencing and separate from you. So like that this body has some effect of pain. So ego will suffer that pain, and I am separate from this ego. So I can also keep awareness oh ego is suffering and he has made mistake in past, so he has got this suffering, and this is a result of my past karma, and when this suffering finished ego also dissolves and suffering also go away and I can remain in awareness of pure soul, so my experience of pure soul will increase because pure soul has a property of bliss, infinite bliss, so he is just like a ice block; if he hits something, give hot things, ice never becomes hot, that hot thing will become cool because ice has a property – it remains cool all the time. So just like pure soul is infinite bliss, it has property. So whatever suffering due to ego, due to wrong belief, we have charged karma and when karma gets discharged that will give suffering of pain. So we have to finish that pain by keeping awareness of pure soul. We have to finish our karma.
Rick: I had a teacher who used to shock interviewers by saying Christ never suffered, and he was not disputing that Christ was crucified, he was just saying in his status he was beyond suffering. The body was suffering obviously, but not..not…
Deepakbhai: There are three parts; one is body, one is ego, and one is pure soul. So body has pain. Ego is sufferer of that pain. And beyond ego, beyond body, pure soul is there. And it has no suffering at all. So if we keep awareness of pure soul, oh I am a pure soul then we are not going to suffer pain of ego as well as pain of the body.
Rick: I think of situations, extreme situations like that of Christ or whatever, and I think well it is just one thing to you know have this understanding I am pure soul, I am beyond suffering, but what if we were put to an extreme test like that, you know would we really have been able to be lived with that understanding just go up the window and one is completely overshadowed by the intensity.
Deepakbhai: Still in this Gnan Vidhi we are getting right belief, so that will never go. At the time of death also this never goes. So such a good heavy pain or whatever happens some accidents takes place, still he has this awareness oh I am pure soul, and this is not with me, this is with body. So many people have experienced such things, in car accident, still he has this awareness and he remains in that state.
Rick: At one point in Dada Bhagwan’s book he was saying that he had no intellect, no ego, and so you were saying the three things you know, the body, the ego, pure soul. Does there come a time in course of one’s development where there is no ego whatsoever and even the intellect or do these things remain as faculties just like our senses.
Deepakbhai: No, he has ego, but discharge ego is there.
Rick: That means what?
Deepakbhai: Discharge ego. So it just gives effect of karma and it will dissolve. So
4-degree of discharge ego is there, 4-degree. He says 356 degree I got realization of pure soul, experience of pure soul. But still 4-degree remained. He has to reach that stage. Ultimate stage, Lord Simandhar Swami, Lord Mahavir reached to 360 degree. So he says, I have 4 degree less than Lord Simandhar Swami.
Rick: Lord Simandhar Swami that you are referring to, he was a human being or …
Deepakbhai: Yes, human being but he reached to the full stage, absolute stage of pure soul, absolute knowledge, Keval Gyan.
Rick: I once heard the phrase Lesha Vidya, some faint remains of ignorance and that it was said that if you are going to be alive and functioning as a human being there has to be a little bit 4%, and there has to be a little faint remains or you would not really be able to function in the world, but it sounds like you are saying you can get rid of that even that 4%.
Deepakbhai: 4% means 4 degree, but because he is giving spiritual talks, he is wearing clothes, he is staying in house so that relative part is there and his biggest intention that let the worldly people get the knowledge of the salvation, so his life is totally dedicated for world salvation, and for that he says my 4% what 4 degree remain that is due to world salvation and not for my own interest.
Rick: Right.
Deepakbhai: This body, speech and mind, this three batteries are getting discharged, and due to ignorance we are charging for next life, thoughts, speech or action. So when we reach to 360 degree still our mind, speech and body are there, and they are getting discharged. Due to discharge karma, he has to stay in this world. So Lord Simandhar Swami has discharge karma of mind, speech and body, but ego totally dissolved, and absolute stage of pure soul is experiencing within him. So there is 360 degree, he reached that stage – still mind, speech and body are there, and they are getting discharged. Due to discharge karma, he has to stay in this world. So when this is finished it is liberation and then soul will get ultimate liberation. He would not come in birth and rebirth cycle.
Rick: So it sounds like you would discriminate between understanding, realization and liberation. There would be different levels of attainment and you know it sounds as though Dada Bhagwan was saying that because of those 4 remaining degrees I have gone beyond self-realization but not yet attained total liberation, so would you define liberation then as a state in which all the remaining karma had been finished but until then the best we can hope for is realization and perhaps would you say that once realization has dawned then I think I read in the book he was saying that no new karma is generated but all the karma that is accumulated begins to discharge.
Deepakbhai: Discharge karma we have to finish. And for discharge karma when we are finishing the discharge karma, we have to keep awareness there should not be charging of new karma and these five principles will help for stopping charging of new karma. So once we get awareness, right belief, self-realization and now if you practice five principles we are stopping charging of new karma and we are eliminating discharge karma with equanimity. So slowly-slowly discharge karma we will finish and there is no charging of new karma. The soul remains free from all atoms, new body, new mind, speech everything. The soul is free from all relative things, atoms, karma, and body. So absolute pure soul will be liberated from this world and he reaches to the ultimate liberation.
Rick: When ultimate liberation is reached, and one is no longer coming to this world is there sort of complete dissolving of that being such as like a drop going into the ocean or do they still exist on some higher level?
Deepakbhai: Individuality remains separate from other pure soul and he visualizes whole universe and he remains in infinite bliss forever.
Rick: On some loka, some realm or something?
Deepakbhai: Yes, it is beyond this world, universe.
Rick: I was wondering about the whole theme of separation, which is emphasized a lot in Dada Bhagwan’s book because of course in traditional Vedic knowledge, separation, as I understand it, is a stage – Dvaita – and then eventually there is Advaita where there is unification again, so first a separation is accomplished and then later on unification again. Does that fit with your teachings?
Deepakbhai: Unification means…
Rick: Well, let’s say we are talking about distinguishing between self and nonself, permanent and the impermanent, but even from the standpoint of physics if we analyze the impermanent closely enough and go down-down-down to the most fundamental level we find it’s a field of permanency, it’s a field of pure unification, pure potentiality, it’s not all this changing stuff. So sages and teachers throughout the centuries like Shankara and others have spoken of the state of unity where the impermanent is seen in its finest value as the self. So it is not just self and nonself but even that which was previously nonself is seen in terms of the self. You know what I mean?
Deepakbhai: But really Lord Mahavir, Lord Krishna has given so many speeches, just like Bhagavad Gita. So he has explained everything nonself as well as self. So when he reached to the full stage he sees permanency, but he can see temporary also. So when people ask them, like Arjuna has asked so many questions. Lord Krishna has given answers for that. So when he reached the full stage he has knowledge of permanent element also as well as temporary things also, phases of the element. So he has knowledge of all the things. Not only he will say everything is a pure soul, everything is absolute pure soul, not like that, he can visualize both the things temporary as well as permanent. Pure soul and phases of the soul, phases of the nonself also, and what is the permanent thing in nonself. So everything he can visualize, he can see.
Rick: In other words, he ultimately comes to see the permanent in the impermanent.
Deepakbhai: No permanent and phases….See eternal element is such that it has permanent matter, permanent properties and temporary phases – when it is called as eternal element. All the elements have property and matter is permanent and phases are temporary. Just like moon, sun and earth. They are revolving each other. The phases of moon we can see, first day of moon, second day of moon. Like that the phases of element take place. Still on the fourth day of moon, moon is permanent, phases are temporary. Just like soul is permanent. There are six eternal elements in this universe. One is soul. One is matter, atoms. Atom is also permanent. One is time. One is space. There are six eternal elements and when they revolve each other the phases of element take place. Phases are temporary and eternal elements are permanent. So when he reaches the full stage, he knows all phases of the eternal element and eternal element as a permanent.
Rick: Okay. I want to pursue this a little bit more because this is interesting. You know the famous saying by Shankara that the world is an illusion, Brahman alone is real, the world is Brahman. I don’t know the Sanskrit for it. So as I understood that what he is saying is that – that which we call illusion, the illusory temporary changing world is in its essence Brahman, in its essence it is permanency, it just appears as temporary and changing, but we are misperceiving it.
Deepakbhai: Dada Bhagwan simply says that soul is permanent, and world is relative correct, and soul is real correct. It is not like total illusion. Because we are doing jobs, so we have expectations I must get my salary. It is not like illusion. If illusion then there is no job, no salary.
Rick: Right…get hungry.
Deepakbhai: My wife, my children everything is there. So it is relative correct. Dada simply says world is relative correct, and soul is real correct.
Rick: Yes.
Deepakbhai: It is temporary correct.
Rick: It is real on its own level.
Deepakbhai: And permanent correct.
Rick: Right, yeah.
Deepakbhai: For time being it is correct, my wife, I have taken divorce, so my relation is broken, but when he marries he has wife, so it is real, but it is relative, but for sometimes few years it is correct.
Rick: Yes, it is real in its own way.
Deepakbhai: It is not illusion; she is not wife…it is not illusion. It is correct, but temporary correct, for some years. After death they are definitely separated. But for few years it is correct. Soul is forever correct, permanent correct.
Rick: Right. It does not become non soul or something.
Deepakbhai. Yes.
Rick: But like if we take an example here of something temporary, this microphone. It is made of metal and plastic and different elements and if we break those down we find atoms, and a minute ago you said atoms are permanent. But we can go even deeper and you don’t have atoms anymore. You know you have these subatomic particles that don’t resemble atoms and you can go even deeper.
Deepakbhai: Individual fraction of atom that is permanent.
Rick: You get down to a level where you find permanency. If you break it down deep enough there is that permanency.
Deepakbhai: Yes.
Rick: And it is the same permanency we discover…
Deepakbhai: That is permanency of other element, not self. Atoms are other element and they are also permanent when it is individual fraction of atom – that is also permanent. So two elements, one is soul and one is matter.
Rick: Just to be persistent….(Laughter). What I am suggesting is that the matter side of it, if you boil it down deep enough you find the same unified field that you found on the soul side. So you discover that oh you know as Shankara said, the world is Brahman, this is pure soul in its essential type.
Deepakbhai: Not at all, no, means only soul is one thing. But suppose in cinema, one is observer and one is the scene. So two things, one is object and one is observer. Two things must be there in this universe. Not only observer is only one, only one, only one. There must be some object and then only observer can observe the object. So objects are also permanent, but phases of the object – permanent thing – they are temporary. Phases of the element are temporary. Soul is also permanent, and phases of the soul are temporary. So object is also there, and observer is also there. Soul is observer. And other things like object. Observer when sees object; there are two things in the world, Lord Krishna has also given two things, one is permanent thing and one is the other thing, matter means pure soul and other matter is also element, but they have no knowledge and wisdom. They don’t have properties such as knowledge, such as bliss, such as vision, but it has another property while soul has another property, but both are separate, and both are permanent.
Rick: So you are saying that ultimately there are two elements in this world. They are soul and non-soul.
Deepakbhai: Really six elements.
Rick: Six elements. Okay. So there is soul and then there are five other elements. And what are those other elements made of?
Deepakbhai: They are permanent. Matter is like atoms-parmanu, Anu Parmanu. Individual fraction of that matter is atoms. Still there is division, divisions of atoms can be last individual fraction is atom is permanent and other is space one of the element, time is one of the element and soul and matter does not have property to move. So one element is helping to move, and another element he is giving stable condition. There are six eternal elements in this universe.
Rick: So you are saying that the eternal elements such as atoms, space, time, those cannot be reduced any further to even more fundamental level of reality. Each of those elements is as fundamental as it gets, and you can’t break them down into a common element that comprises them all.
Deepakbhai: Not at all. They remain not mixable and all six remain supporting each other, but in this body, there are six eternal elements, but they are not merging with each other, they remain separate all the time. Their property is such that they never mix with each other. They remain total separate.
Rick: There are some theoretical physicist who would debate you on that point. They would say that you know you can go deeper, you can unify, you can get down to fundamental forces, and those forces become unified and ultimately you get down to unified field. But I am not a theoretical physicist, so as far as I can take it.
Could we talk a little bit about your own experience? You know you met Dada Bhagwan when you were 17 and at a certain point you know you gained self-realization from him. Could you describe your own path, your own experience anything you feel would be of interest and inspiring to people?
Deepakbhai: I got in 1971 this knowledge from Dada Bhagwan, and initially I felt happiness. Oh, something inner bliss is there. Slowly-slowly, I came in contact with Dada Bhagwan and Niruma and slowly-slowly I understood the spiritual science and then I felt, oh! this is something every day every moment I feel this may help me for understanding what is the reality of this universe; what is pure soul, what are other elements; what is mind, intellect, ego; how the anger, pride, deceit, greed, everything is working. And then I slowly-slowly by grace of Dada Bhagwan I felt separation from experience from this Deepak, my first neighbor. And at that time, I was studying engineering, first-year engineering, BE Mechanical. So four years when I studied, still I felt that I am inside, I am separate and Deepak is studying, he is getting good marks, he is giving examination, everything, still my inner awareness is total separate from this Deepak. So that is biggest experience.
Then I started job, then I started my business, still inside I can remain all the time separate and the relative part is doing job, business, everything is going on and inside myself no worry, no stress, no tension. Total separation from this mind, speech, body, ego also, intellect. Ego is suffering so many things. But still I can remain all the time from ego, intellect, pride separate from all these things. That is biggest experience. And I was helping Niruma to edit Dada’s book, so that helped me more. I could study more Dada’s literature, and this is science without contradiction. Just like in Chemistry,
2H +O it gives water, so we can’t say 3H+2O is going to give water. Because if there is change of one atom, result won’t come. Here also due to one wrong belief, we will not get good result. So here also my understanding is very clear by studying Dada’s literature with the grace of Dada Bhagwan, so I have remained in touch with all Dada’s literature, spiritual science. And I understand this that there is no contradiction at all. And for everything I got solution, why this is happening, to whom this is happening, who is the doer, how this is happening, everything. Slowly-slowly I can understand, and I can experience that thing. Who is governing this whole universe? How pure soul is separate. Why this thoughts good or bad are coming. How the intellect is working. How the ego is working. How the anger, pride, deceit working. So I can understand by grace of Dada Bhagwan and that is biggest experience for me. I can remain separate from anger, pride, deceit, greed, thoughts, everything bad or good, negativity. That is the experience.
Rick: You say slowly-slowly. Were there any breakthrough moments where it was a big shift or was it always a little bit at a time.
Deepakbhai: Slowly-slowly my progress was there. Some problems arise in mind, intellect or ego then I will get solution from Dada’s knowledge and that will give me happiness and my experience will increase.
So like that when worldly problem comes in my business also, in my house, my father, mother, brother, sister have some disadjustment, at that time this knowledge will help me to solve my worldly problem and that will help me. In day-to-day life I can solve my worldly problem and I can remain in awareness of pure soul without anger or without pride or without greed or deceit, attachment, hatred. There will not be that such things do not happen, but I can dissolve that thing, anger, pride everything.
Rick: Sometimes people report kind of dramatic awakenings, like for instance, Buddha under the Bodhi tree is the most famous example. You know, he sat there and finally there was this big breakthrough and he was enlightened, and even regular people these days sometimes have these major shifts. You know they feel like it is a night and day difference all of a sudden and then there is no going back. Were there milestones like that in your own progress where instead of just a little bit each day there was a big change…
Deepakbhai: Big change the same day of Gnan Ceremony.
Rick: In the beginning.
Deepakbhai: And then it began…the biggest change, the very first day. Then
slowly-slowly my covering goes away and I experience more and more about my permanency.
Rick: I imagine in the beginning that it seems these days a lot of people are reporting spiritual awakenings, you know, and maybe there are some similarities between what they are reporting and probably differences and some of them if you would say are you self-realized, they would say yes I am self-realized; I had a spiritual awakening. But would you agree with that? Do you feel like self-realization is becoming somewhat commonplace these days or is it a rare thing and you are not really going to find it too many places?
Deepakbhai: If somebody says I am having one million dollar but when he want to purchase then he will say I don’t have money. He is believing that I am a multimillion person, but when he want to purchase something he want to purchase car, he doesn’t have money, when he withdraws from bank, bank will say nothing is there. So we have to take as experiment and on trial we have to study it. Whatever I am feeling whatever I am experiencing is correct or not. So every moment we have to study it. See Dada says that when I study myself I always doubt. Whatever I believe is always under doubt. What is true. I want to know truth, universal truth. And whatever I believe it may not be universal truth. So again and again he is doubting about his own belief and
slowly-slowly he got ultimate knowledge. So just like whatever I study from Dada’s knowledge still something happened I will apply my knowledge and if I get result then I will understand my understanding is correct and if I get bliss then I will understand my understanding is correct and I am on right progress and if I feel something unhappiness or some anger or depression or insult if I feel that then I will apply knowledge again and again. So when experience of pure soul is there, he really got self-realization then he has to taste how I am getting the result. And he got the right result then he is correct. Suppose, somebody says my house is fully lighted and if I fall down on chair or table, so the light is not there. So we have to understand, we have to keep doubt what we are believing and then you get correct understanding. So many people taking Gnan, before that anger is there or pride is there. Some conflict between relatives in worldly, in business also some problem, so at that time he applies this knowledge and he sees his own fault. So biggest positive in this Dada’s knowledge, we can see our own fault; anger, pride, deceit or greed. So we are seeing our own fault. And when we see fault of other person, our conflict will increase and when we see our own fault our conflict decreases and dissolves. So after self-realization one who says I got self-realization, biggest part is we have to see our own faults.
And we have to see worldly as a flawless vision, not fault of any other person. Whatever bad thing happens, or good thing happens, some problems arise between some people, we have to see as there should not be any fault of any person; flawless vision, all the time. That is biggest positive result of self-realization.
Rick: So you are saying that if self-realization is genuine then there are symptoms of it, such as not seeing faults in others, not being prone to anger and greed and things like that.
Deepakbhai: Yes, that can be dissolved by this understanding.
Rick: Yeah, I heard a funny story last night from Alicia, she was telling me the story that apparently at some gathering, not one of your gathering – just some gathering, some spiritual group, two guys got there early and saved seats in the front row, so they could have a good seat. And then they went back, they were going to get some refreshments or something and one fellow said, if you want are you going to get some coffee then the other guy said there is no one here to decide and then they went back up to the front because the thing was going to start and someone had taken their seats and the guy who said there was no one here to decide said, hey wait a minute you are in my seat.
Deepakbhai: So Dada says that when he got self-realization in 1958, he says I totally disconnected from this mind, speech and body. Still mind, speech and body are working but he has no ownership of mind, speech and body. He never says, I am speaking, I am thinking, I am doing; says my doership is totally dissolved and totally separate. No ego means no doership.
Rick: So who controls the mind, speech and body if one is not the doer who or what is the doer?
Deepakbhai: Yes, this is a biggest question. Suppose one doll is there and we are putting three cells, batteries, so when we start that so doll will walk, I am hungry, I am sleepy – so she will talk, but when cells get discharged, battery gets discharged, it will fall down.
Rick: Right.
Deepakbhai: Just like when we charge this cell, for charging some plug is there, some power supply is required and when discharge take place nothing is required. Just like our mind, speech and body they are discharge battery. So only scientific circumstantial evidence occurs thoughts will come, speech will come, or action of body will take place, but it does not require any doer. For charging new battery, doer is required. Due to ignorance of pure soul we are believing that I am Rick, I am doer, I am thinking, I am speaking, I am doing. So that part due to wrong belief we are charging new battery of mind for next life, new battery of speech for next life, new battery of action of body for next life and in other life what happens, so whatever we have charged in past life in this life our mind, speech and body these three batteries are getting discharged now. And for discharge, our ego is not required. For discharge, circumstantial evidences are required. So due to some circumstantial evidence, time, space, other evidence automatically discharge of mind will take place, discharge of speech and discharge of body will take place. So for discharge, egoism not required. For charging new karma, ego required.
Rick: So right now you are talking to me and you are moving your hands and doing all sorts of things, but you are not the doer.
Deepakbhai: I am seeing that what Deepak is doing. I am knower and seer of this Deepak.
Rick: Right. So what is making Deepak do these things?
Deepakbhai: Discharge.
Rick: So it is just karma unwinding…?
Deepakbhai: Yes, unwinding…karma is unwinding but circumstantial evidence. Dada says scientific, circumstantial evidence are governing this universe, not soul.
Rick: So the soul is just uninvolved witness and everything we are doing, saying and thinking all that is just discharging karma or if we don’t take the soul to be detached witness then we are charging up new karma – creating.
Deepakbhai: No, due to ignorance of pure soul, we are believing that I am doer of this thought or speech or action.
Rick: Then we generate new karma.
Deepakbhai: Then we will charge new karma.
Rick: Some teachers say that when the soul is really realized, you know fully then it is 24 hours a day. Even when the body is asleep, inner awareness remains.
Deepakbhai: Yes, correct.
Rick: Correct.
Deepakbhai: Yes, it is possible. In higher stage, both things body has got sleep and inner awareness remains as it is.
Rick: Is that your experience?
Deepakbhai: Yes. I have got this experience. So due to wrong belief that we are believing that I am sleeping that wrong belief goes away. I am not sleeping and who is sleeping, I know, and myself I know who is I – Who am I.
Rick: So the body may be snoring, but inner awareness of self is…
Deepakbhai: Remains separate…
Rick: Yes, good. It might be a good place to end, but let me just see if there is anything in my notes…
Here is one little final point perhaps and I think I have covered all the other ones, and that is – do you feel that awakening can happen without a teacher or is a teacher absolutely essential, a Gnan Purush or some teacher.
Deepakbhai: Teacher is always essential, but Dada says that in this life I don’t have any teacher, but in past life he achieved, in spirituality, full stage. He must be teacher in my past life. And then I got this realization in this life.
Rick: And so if a person thinks in this life I can do it without a teacher, maybe they should find one.
Deepakbhai: Yes, it is very difficult. Suppose somebody says, one small boy I don’t want any teacher, I will learn 1, 2, 3; A, B, C, D; mathematics, physics, chemistry without teacher, is it possible. Experienced person is required always. In medical also, when he finishes medical study, three years he has to take internship under experienced doctor, so without experienced person one cannot reach to that stage.
Rick: Right. And in case of spirituality is it more what the teacher says or is the real influence sort of a subtle transmission that is taking place and that is what really awakens the people? Like darshan…
Deepakbhai: By grace of spiritual teacher he can get knowledge as well as experience, but his humbleness is required. I want to learn what is reality. I want to study. I want to reach. What you have experienced, I want to study that thing. From his side, his requirement is there-demand and supply. With grace of spiritual teacher he will learn more.
Rick: Yes, they say the teacher is like a big reservoir, but the student has to bring a pipe and put it up to the reservoir, you know. And if he just puts a little drinking straw then there is not going to be much flow, but if he puts a big pipe, meaning great willingness and sincerity….
Deepakbhai: Here ego is there. It is a biggest obstruction. If I say I know something, I know everything then ego is higher, he would not absorb more knowledge. Less the ego, he will get more knowledge. Ego is always obstruction. I know nothing about soul, that ego helps.
Rick: Amma, the hugging saint, who is coming to this area soon, she always says we should always have the attitude of a beginner.
Deepakbhai: Yes, just student. I also myself after so many years, I got in 1971 this knowledge still everyday I feel, oh I am student, I am learning this Dada’s science. Everyday I am thinking that towards this side. I know whatever I am knowing, still I want to know further.
Rick: Beautiful. Good. I think that’s a good place for us to conclude.
So let me make a few concluding remarks. First of all thank you very much again for this opportunity. It has really been a pleasure sitting with you and having this conversation. It’s a great blessing for me. And to those who have been listening or watching, you have been listening or watching an interview with Deepakbhai who is based in Gujarat area in India but travels all over the world and has a website where you can find out more about him and his teachings. I will be linking to that website from mine, and mine is batgap.com and there also on batgap.com you will find other interviews that I have been doing and will do, you can subscribe to an e-mail newsletter to be notified of new ones and if you are watching this on YouTube, you can subscribe to the YouTube channel to be notified of new ones every time one is posted which is about once a week.
So thank you all for listening and watching. Thank you again Deepakbhai. It has been a pleasure.
Deepakbhai: Jai Sachidanand.
Rick: Jai Sachidanand.
Additional 10 minutes of the audio that was recorded later in the afternoon in a public gathering where Rick asked Deepakbhai few more questions…….
Rick: I had the honor of interviewing Deepakbhai this morning, and I have a followup question or two.
In your introduction this afternoon you said if I understood you correctly that it is important to have a clear understanding of the goal when you embark on the path. My understanding has always been the separation of self from non-self is not the ultimate and is perhaps represented by Samkhya in Indian Philosophy, but that the schools of Indian philosophy are not competing with each other, they are complementary and that eventually that separation gives rise to a greater unity which is represented by Advaita Vedanta and lot of westerners these days are talking about non-duality and Advaita and there are all sorts of people running around teaching and that is why I think this might be a relevant question and not just sort of an academic question and even in Dada Bhagwan’s book he talks about self-realization in his own case as having been a stage after which much further development continued and even late in life I guess he felt that it was not complete, you know there were like 4 points out of 360 that remained to be achieved. So the question in a nutshell is – is duality separation of self from non-self the final destination or is it a stage after which eventually complete unification, Brahman or totality or unity is achieved.
So the question I will try to put it concisely – I am unqualified to ask this question in that I haven’t done Gnan Vidhi, I will do it tomorrow and maybe the question would evaporate if I had done Gnan Vidhi, so apologies for those who have already done it and have been doing it for a long time. But since you had said that it is good to have a clear understanding of the goal when embarking on the path, my question is – is the ultimate goal a state of separation of self from non-self or is that like a point on the journey and the ultimate goal is more a complete unity in which non-self and self are contained within a larger wholeness.
Deepakbhai: In this spiritual science really some beginners they don’t know about self and non-self. They want only peace, bliss, permanent happiness. Happiness should not end; it should remain continuous. So everybody, every people or every living creature wants happiness and that happiness should not end. Whatever we are getting happiness in this world that is a temporary happiness. Some food or some marriage life or from money, house, car, everything are temporary things, and we are getting happiness from temporary things, temporary happiness. So here they don’t know what is permanent, what is temporary, what is self, nonself. They want happiness . I want permanent happiness but permanent word also they don’t know. Here what happens, they realize their own self, who am I, and self is permanent, soul is permanent, so permanent gives permanent happiness and they realize, oh, after Gnan Vidhi I don’t have so many problems, my worry, my stress, my conflict goes away and inner bliss starts because soul is permanent, it is full of happiness, full of bliss, so he starts experiencing inner happiness. So hereafter Gnan Vidhi that worldly unhappiness goes away and inner happiness starts. Understood.? And then if he understands more about this science he will get more clear understanding for worldly problems, how to solve worldly problems, so that will help in future, but initially he gets inner happiness. See what we are believing that we are oneness with nonself all this relative part we merge with relative part, so initially after Gnan Vidhi, we are separated from relative part then we will reach absolute I, absolute pure soul, so that is Keval Gnan or absolute stage of pure soul. So after we reach to that stage, but in that stage all this relative remain as it is. Our wrong belief totally dissolves, and we are reaching to the full stage as a knower and seer of all this relative things, all this phases, relative things, but that you say that everything is one that is not possible.
Observer and object remain two all the time. After ultimate liberation, object is there, whole universe is object and that absolute pure soul is observer. That stage remains forever, from beginning to ultimate stage, you understood?
Rick: Yes.
Deepakbhai: Is there any question?
Rick: Again, you know its premature because I haven’t done Gnan Vidhi, but my experience and understanding is that there are many many layers of attachment and it goes deeper and deeper layers of identification. And I think you answered it very well this morning when you said that with Gnan Vidhi there is self-realization and then the karmas just begin to dissolve and that may take a long time.
Deepakbhai: Discharge karma…we have to finish.
Rick: Right.
Deepakbhai: It will take time.
Rick: And well I guess maybe a good question would be are there deeper and deeper karmas, does it start with small ones and then get down to more heavy karmas that are more kind of deeply rooted.
Deepakbhai: Yes, slowly-slowly. Karma remains physically, thoughts or speech or action is there. But our understanding goes deeper. Separation, we can experience more separation from this non-self, and we experience our pure soul. So that our understanding power goes deeper and that will help to keep separation for subtlest time, minute time. Every moment we can remain separate. Discharge karma is as it is. Previously we feel gross karma. We see gross level then we can see in gross level also there are so many phases, from beginning to end there are so many phases and we can see minutely from very beginning to end and we are knower for that discharge karma. So our understanding power goes deeper and deeper. Karma remains as it is. We are attached and then we are getting separated from discharge karma, and in that discharge karma our awareness, see whatever we are feeling my thoughts are bad, then he understands, no, behind that thoughts negative opinions are there, then further he understands that behind that opinion intellect is working, behind that intellect egoism is working, ego has negative belief for himself, so when bad thoughts we will see not only bad thoughts but we can understand up to last negative belief, what ego has negative belief, and once we know that negative belief it gets dissolved and we can remain separate from this ego, intellect, thoughts, mind and we can experience our pure soul. Oh I am totally knower and seer. When ego dissolves when we see that negative belief of ego then we are observer of that ego. That ego gets dissolved and at that time awareness or say experience of pure soul comes out more and more. So thoughts or speech or action remain as it is. But our understanding power goes deeper and deeper to the root. Due to ignorance everything gets generated. From where it gets generated, our vision is clear for that. And once we know where is the beginning, when we dissolve that beginning root cause, we can experience pure soul more correctly.
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