Transcript of Panel Discussion on Kashmir Shaivism with Sally Kempton, Igor Kufayev, and Menas Kafatos

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Panel Discussion on Kashmir Shaivism with Sally Kempton, Igor Kufayev, and Menas Kafatos

Rick Archer: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer. And I’m out at the science and non duality conference in San Jose, California, with some friends with a lot of friends. But at the moment, I have three, Sally Kempton, he got to five and Manana catheters. And the reason I assembled this little conversation that we’re about to have, is that a question I was rumbles around in my brain, which is articulated as best as possible, if consciousness is the ultimate reality. And if there is an ultimate reality, then everything must actually be that reality if we take this glass, and we started to go more and more microscopically, to get down to the point where which there is no glass. And if we go far enough, we get down to the point at which what we find is what we find if we do that with anything in creation. So is there really a glass? Or is there only that which we find when we get right down to the real nitty gritty? And if that is the case, then how do glasses and tables and palm trees and buildings and people appear? What creates it? Is it an illusion that we’re seeing all these things? So anyway, I could elaborate on that. But I got to talking with Igor about this. And he said, Well, you know, Kashmir Shaivism, addresses this very beautifully. And perhaps we could have a little panel discussion when we get out there and which we’ll discuss this in light of, or with reference to Kashmir Shaivism. And so these three panelists came to mind, Sally, and Igor, excuse me, Sally and menis were both students of Swami Muktananda. And I believe that Kashmir Shaivism, was very much the foundation of his tradition. And Igor was not but is somewhat of an expert in that field as well. So I thought it would be very interesting to have this conversation. And it’s not something that was being done within the context of the formal conference. So we just set it up on on the side. So I’d like to just introduce the guests or actually, I think I’ll have you guys introduce yourselves just briefly, because that’ll be more effective than my introducing you Why don’t we do that starting with Sally.

Sally Kempton: I’m Sally Kempton, and I’m a spiritual teacher and writer. I’ve written a couple of books on meditation and on Shakti. I was a longtime student of Swami Muktananda, who actually introduced me to Kashmir Shaivism in 19, in the very early 1970s. And for that, say before that I was a journalist. I I teach workshops, retreats teleclasses, in what I call non dual, contemplative devotional Tantra because that the tradition that I was trained in and that I relate to is kind of combines the understanding of non duality with with the recognition of the gift of devotion and the understanding that love devotion is an aspect of chuffed, David to the aspect of reality, which is one of the heart teachings of Kashmir Shaivism.

Rick Archer:  Igor?

Igor Kufayev: have Shiva, Shiva five, I was born in Uzbekistan, and essentially, I was an artist, as far back as I can remember myself. Quite a few things have happened in between realizing the time that one would without the second and but to give like a kind of a little bit more linear perspective. I’ve been studying art and pursuing it all my life, where the kind of drive was realized that beneath the drive for art was actually very, very much a powerful, energetic movement within it was kind of eager to express itself as soon as I realized that I’ve realized that art is actually secondary. But what is primal is that drive for self actualization? So, in the meantime, of course, I did a lot of studies and I was at some point. Students at St. Petersburg Academy When not, in my early 20s, I moved to Warsaw, which was my first kind of formative years as an independent artist. And since 1991, I was a resident of London, and pursued artistic career, career and arts as a painter, until a powerful transformation took place around around my mid 30s, which essentially made me realize that there is nothing to pursue other than that, which I’m already as an embodied being. So, in in no time, which took quite a few years, I find myself teaching and essentially sharing this knowledge. So that’s pretty much the story.

Rick Archer: Thanks, Menas?

Menas Kafatos: thank you, for the invitation. been asked fathers of quantum physicist teaching at Chapman University and other places, but in any case, have been a student of shaving since 1980, when I met Baba Muktananda, Salisbury, New York, and I remember, I remember those days, and certainly 1980, but a big transformation took place. And since then, my life has changed quite a lot, I can see the dramatic and the subtle changes, the solid changes are actually perhaps even more profound. I’m also an artist, I started art in Greece, but 14 years old. I told my dad, you know, heart is so easy for me, I would like to go to science, so decided to go into astrophysics first, and then eventually into quantum physics. The exciting part now is that we have actually mathematical ways mathematical tools to get as close as possible to the top five data. So I guess we’ll talk a little bit more about that. But realize that mathematics itself comes from the underlying sea of consciousness. While it is the most fundamental way to get as close as possible to Universal Consciousness, and that we can talk a bit more about some of the specifics of these steps of transformation humans lives and also how the universal shock that gives rise to the universe. Yeah,

Rick Archer: I think you were addressing that in your talk last night of the conference. And you You were saying something along the lines of what I was talking about with the glass and use the word veiling. So I got the understanding from listening to you that there’s some sort of veiling process that occurs in order for apparent forms to arise.

Menas Kafatos: Correct. And, again, from Quantum Physics Today, we know that nonlocality is a fundamental property of the universe, it’s, in fact, it is perhaps the most fundamental of the universe. And describe it in the NACA universe, which is, you know, it’s one of my books. So if that’s the case, and we’re entangled, which is the theme of this conference here, then how come and glass appears of the glass and, you know, sadhak ingericht view itself looked at separately, beings, something must happen and the great X all of them, but let’s say, the protein Upanishad IAM, which is the text of self recognition, written by Keisha Mariah sort of actually gives the steps of how universal consciousness becomes the bound soul, it’s that way and individuals, self. And crucial to that is the principle of veiling, which in Sanskrit is called Maya. And it’s a term that sometimes is quite misunderstood, because Maya herself has misunderstood it’s really the great power of the Lord, to veil herself or veiled himself. Of course, the Lord does not, does not have a gender and appear as a multiplicity of universes and objects. The interesting thing now is that the quantum theory is something that we have come up lately is that and this is why the mathematics important. We find that we have any similar concept that we call bell, nonlocality, and Subash Kok. You may know him, he’s also he’s actually from Kashmir himself. He knows about shamans quite a bit. And I have written a couple of articles and basically there we look at this principle veiling purely from the point of view of quantum physics, and it seems the generator and quantum theory come together, and the consciousness seems should be an important part of that. Without it veiling does not make any sense. So it’s quite exciting because now perhaps we have a way to talk about the unification of physics from the point of view of this violin, which is analog to what the great Shaivite masters were calling de Maya Yeah, and of course, even done

Rick Archer: Do either of you want to comment?

Sally Kempton: well, I would say one of the year marks hallmarks of Shaivism of Kashmir Shaivism with non dual Shaivism as opposed to non dual Vedanta, which is, of course is very similar to it is the understanding about maya, about the veiling power. So, in, in Vedanta, where the teaching is that ultimate reality is, is the only real truth and that the world is illusion, Maya is considered this kind of mistake, or that the that the straw in the glass that makes us think that there that the water is two, when actually, it’s one, whereas in Kashmir Shaivism, Maya is seen as a as a level of manifestation of Shakti which is, which is the the power aspect of the ultimate reality that that really, she manifests as Maya in order to veil unity, so as to play manifestation and the sort of essential thing about tantric Shaivism is this understanding that the world is real, even though it dissolves in certain states of consciousness, because Shakti that, the love, bliss, energy of the Divine is present in every particle. So so as you were saying last night, it’s, it’s empty, and it’s also full, it’s, it’s, it’s without any, any form, without ultimate reality, and yet it is totally full of ultimate reality. And that’s Shaivism is really, I think, the only tradition that really explains this in a, you know, that, that gives you permission, so to speak to to be a serious spiritual seeker and fully in love with the physical world. Which is why I think it’s worked so well with quantum physics. Yeah.

Menas Kafatos: Well, as Sally said the precise point. And in terms of course, I believe when when you start getting deeper into Shankara, Shankaracharya Advaita Vedanta, then you’ll begin to see that actually, he was also talking about same thing he was but then he was misunderstood. And this is a problem with the with the wars, this is a problem with whether game The Great Shave it so by the master school, the limitation, the limited power of the wards, the Magica Monica Shafi. And, and of course, that is the, that’s what makes our human as, as human beings, we get bound by by our minds and by our own words. And so, in ultimately, Vedanta and Shaivism, are not really opposite. But a shame is much more down to earth in terms of everyday life in terms of science. That’s why we scientists really tend to gravitate towards it, because it accepts the world is real, rather than what they interpret interpretation, some of the Advaita Vedanta teachings ended up saying that the world is not real. And then of course, the reaction of scientists is What do you mean, it’s not real? You’re denying science? So rather than have to explain all for that, that doesn’t, that’s not really what the shank on a man, then you know, just just go with shapes?

Rick Archer: Well, as human beings, we have a certain sensory capacity or certain range within which we can perceive, right. And, you know, we don’t perceive magnetic fields, we don’t perceive ultraviolet, we proceed within a certain range. And so, you know, and also in terms of macroscopic and microscopic, we have certain capacity to perceive. Now, if, let’s say, I had superpowers and could perceive more and more microscopically, what this glass really is, then at a certain point, there wouldn’t be glass, at a certain point, there wouldn’t be molecules at a certain point, there wouldn’t be atoms, as I go deeper and deeper, those more manifest levels would no longer be found. And at a certain point, there wouldn’t be anything that could be called a thing. Right? I mean, I, I wouldn’t be so far, if I’m not speaking incorrectly in terms of in terms of physics. And so you know, just because I have, you know, limited perceptual capacity as a human being, it seems like I see this class as a class because I have limited perceptual abilities. I’ve had super power perceptual abilities. I could choose to see it as a class but I could also So zoom right down and see it as nothing, not see it at all, because it wouldn’t be there. So I guess what I’m getting at is that it always would seem that the world appears because of the restriction in our perceptual and cognitive ability to a very kind of limited band of possibilities. And

Igor Kufayev: yeah,

Sally Kempton: yeah.

Menas Kafatos: Yes. Basically, what you’re saying is the veiling of Maya, we are, we take particular forms, particular forms of existence, even though we are this university of consciousness. We are product evolution, but we are also evolving. We’re also the guidance, the guiding principles of evolution ourselves. So in terms of the glass, and you said, if you look at really deep down, it will dissolve. It will dissolve properly into superstrings at some point. And then what’s beyond superstrings? Well, in chambers, they may it’s adoption also spanda, which means vibration, but the vibration of in the Shaivite underlying consciousness is not the same thing as the field theories, like when they’re saying this quantum field theory, because they’re the vibration of the quantum field, you have a field in the vibrates. Even though it’s not material, in the usual sense, there’s still something there. In the case of these great monistic systems. Consciousness itself has the span that principle, the principle of vibration, but it is a subtle movement. And it is a sort of movement that becomes eventually bigger, and when it gets filter. And in fact, some some great teachings that talk about my God, or the bell, in principle as a sacred like a prison, which takes the white light, and makes it into many colors. And in fact, if you look at the top bus, you will see that at some point, the rays, which had different outputs are really coming from, let’s say, the ego, most of them come from the ego, then then the analogy is there, but it’s an analogy. So it will dissolve ultimately, into some sort of vibration of universal consciousness.

Igor Kufayev: I was gonna say the same thing, but you did much better in terms of scientific implications. It wasn’t Albert Einstein, who was particularly chuffed about actually realization, which he considered to be more important than what he’s known for, is that realization that a lie is both exhibits both qualities, right as both particles and waves. So when Rick was saying the example with the glass, I think it’s very important to also understand that the example of zooming in and trying to kind of like go to the bottom of electrolytes are the finest layer of what this reality is made of. It’s still kind of approaching it a little bit from the old paradigm, not necessarily that you were coming from that, but that kind of zooming in, because what really quantum science gives us is understanding that this glass exists here, both as the possibility of consciousness which has collapsed into a particular object in time and space time, and it simultaneously also exist as a possibility on a wavelength. And this is where we enter or where science overlaps with. Very deep, profound experiences are known as yogic experiences, go and quartz and quartz. And earlier when you mentioned the science of magic, which is very, very unique to Katherine Shirley’s designs, the word magic, magic and magical, which is the science of the matrix. Sometimes it’s called does the liberal mother. That literally, it’s that plethora of complaints, absolute everything, absolutely everything in its pure potentiality. It’s a very profound realization with one one actually experiences it directly. But in terms of sort of the some of the listeners perhaps will be kind of correlate this I would like to mention something for which Kashmir Shaivism stands unique in terms of the importance of the sound, right like this

Sally Kempton: Tantra in general

Igor Kufayev: and Tantra in gerenal that kind of the emission of sound or the the sea, the ocean of sound. And the uniqueness also here is with the understanding the Sanskrit through which the knowledge of Kashmir Shaivism operates, or being conveyed. related, is based on the Note that this is a very, very precise correlation between sound and form between the essence and or in other words, this is something that is encapsulated in the term nama rupa. But like that kind of flip the field, the full potentialities, right, that can reveal the quantum field, we can we can say that it’s a continuum. So that sound the first letter of the alphabet of the Sanskrit alphabet is a. Yeah, like, like in terms of the house is written, and the sound of the sound that is produced is an uninterrupted sound. Right, so there’s the letter R, it actually literally exemplifies that uninterrupted, continue, but soon, soon, as it collapses into the next one, which is a car OXA, sometimes known as, like Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, for instance, elaborated on it very beautifully, where, for me personally, there was a beautiful reconciliation and deep understanding of the teaching that existed in Kashmir Shaivism. And what Maharishi Mahesh Yogi brought through his science of creative intelligence where that literally the Vedic verse, ritual, actually purnamadah Man, the one who’s, you know, whose vision is open to that field, or for potentialities, within the gap between the sounds, to him on the reality is no, not the one who repeats the letter, so to speak. So this is literally ritual UK shall read this from our onion uninterrupted continue to k, where the sound collapses, collapses from wavelength into something particular. In other words, from the A to QA, right. So yeah, that literally literally is the mystery. This is where the mystery has been pointed towards. And I find it terribly exciting because it gives that visceral, visceral understanding of how actually the ultimate reality which is a substratum of all that exist, also simultaneously expresses itself as the infinity of points of collapse, because it’s collapses in point in time, but it collapses in infinity in infinitude of waves of possibilities. In other words, it’s like there’s no end to that collapse. And there’s no end to that sound of that open sound. So sorry, I’m so dramatic.

Sally Kempton: So Igor was speaking about matrika, which is usually translated as little mother or un understood mother. What matrica is or is, is the energy within sound. And it’s, it’s in this theory that the world is created out of vibration out of out of a very, very subtle vibration called spunda. That then becomes more and more concretize. Where it ends up with us where we end up with is language. Because Mutharika as we know, it is actually it’s the veiling power within language. So and I want to I just was thinking of an event that happened to a friend of mine, many years ago, she was in a car accident. And as you know, accidents, car accidents are sometimes the triggers for profound experiences of expansion. So she was thrown out of the car on one on one and landed in the median strip, and found herself in this utterly best plane where there were no forms. She was in a state of complete ecstasy. She didn’t know her name or who she was, there was certainly no pain. And, little by little, as she tells it, after an infinite infinity of time, suddenly these, these, this trickle of words began to come in her mind. And it went like this. I hope. They don’t think it was my fault. And as soon as those words arose, she was back in her body in pain, you know, worrying about the outcome of her accident. And she said, and I expect I’ve experienced this myself, that this was the moment when she understood the veiling power of language, that you know that that audit. Reality is infinite possibility. As soon as we begin to create names, and thoughts and definitions, then reality is particularized and limited and defined. And that’s, you know, much aka Shakti as it’s called the power behind language. The power within language, is actually the form of the of the Shakti aspect, the energy aspect of the Divine that that cuts things constantly into particles and then constantly allows the unveiling of recurring so that we can experience wholeness. And it’s it’s really a, it’s a constant rhythmic movement.

Igor Kufayev: And it’s very beautiful because obviously that accident was a very beautiful example of direct experience of that very visceral experience I can imagine.

Sally Kempton: Yeah.

Igor Kufayev: And Kashmir Shaivism is very, very specific and goes into great depth to explain how the language veils reality, isn’t it. And, and there is obviously this profound science of the progressive manifestation of sound through these four stages. Yeah, from para to Pashyanti, to Madhyama, to the vicarious how it actually literally comes from that level of unmanifested level of pure potentiality, whatever might might call it where Shiva is united with Shakti and indistinguishable on the level of power, and then how it is gradually being manifested through it’s progressively more, let’s say, contracted state until it is being expressed as the thought, or as the speech. And simultaneous simultaneously as everything absolutely, because the language is here to be understood not just what we speak already, but language which collapses, the literally collapses the wave into something, particularly into particles.

Sally Kempton: Yeah, and that’s one of the teachings of Shaivism that I find really difficult to understand in my normal state of consciousness, is that that reality is constantly being recreated in fractional seconds. So the in between any thought in between any breath in between any perception, the whole universe collapses back into its non dual state into its non dual form. And we’re sort of we’re watching a 24 frames per second movie, that is actually a series of stills made stillness between i, this is this is a realization that I actually have to be in what we normally call an altered state to really grasp it, because it’s so it’s so you know, intuitively ungraspable in our, in our ordinary reality. And I think that’s the thing about physics. It’s, like we’re so fascinated by because there is actually a physical world explanation of these subtle, subtle, subtle realities that almost to a modern materialist mind, like all of us, kind of explains it. In a way we can say, Okay, this is a physical thing, as well as being this, you know, infinitely subtle reality that’s only grasp of and high states of meditation in realization. Somebody can do the math.

Rick Archer: I have two questions. Oh, go ahead.

Igor Kufayev: those kind of challenges as well, that accepted accepted view of creation.

Sally Kempton: Yes, it does.

Igor Kufayev: Creation from that perspective, creation never took place.

Sally Kempton: Yeah.

Igor Kufayev: And that’s really the true depth of understanding of the true permanence of pure awareness of the Shiva.

Sally Kempton:  Yeah.

Igor Kufayev: And so that kind of manifestation and the withdrawal, it doesn’t happen only in terms of pralaya. Not in terms of the Vedic tantric concept of time,

Sally Kempton: right.

Igor Kufayev: But it is like this continuum that literally literally has no beginning and no end. So it’s like, like a stream of consciousness. What what I personally like that reference as the stream of consciousness, which simply streams within itself,

Sally Kempton: right

Igor Kufayev: for its own sake.

Sally Kempton: Right. Yeah. Yeah, and infinitely self recursive. I’m wondering if it would be useful if we kind of did a, you know, kind of textbook explanation of how Kashmir Shaivism sees the world?

Rick Archer: Sure. I have a couple of questions based on what you guys were just saying? Should I ask those now? Or do you want to do your textbook explanation?

Sally Kempton: Just kind of get the term just,

Rick Archer: maybe my I can ask my questions. And then you can include the answers in your textbook explanation. One is, you know, you’re speaking as though just now, language is responsible for the manifestation of creation. And obviously, people are gonna think, well, wait a minute, they know the, if they think of language in the ordinary human sense, the universe was around for probably billions of years before there were any beings who had who devised languages. And yet, so manifestation has already happened. So that question needs to be addressed. And the second thing that you were just saying about the collapse of the universe, in that in micro moments in between? Are you saying that that happens? For each observer? Are you saying that somehow the entire universe does that in some kind of universal way? And third question to throw in is, there’s more but three for now, is just that. There’s obviously a concern, consistency between observers, we all see this table with three glasses on it. And if somebody else comes into the room who hasn’t been here today, they’ll see the table with three glasses on it. So it seems that there’s a kind of a template for reality that goes far beyond any individual’s perspective on it. And the individuals just sort of tune in on to whatever extent they can. So the notion that somehow we each individually and every moment create the universe would seem to fly in the face of that point,

Sally Kempton: that that I’d like to answer that, because Shaivism is really interesting in that there is a Creator. In other words, it’s a it’s reality is personified and circumstance. And the basic teaching is that all of this is a manifestation inside one great mind. So and that one great mind has, has, it seems, I’m not wondering that mind is not at this moment. So I can always speak from hearsay. And yet I am exactly so so. So all of this is occurring inside one mind. And, and and that’s the mystery that comes to me and, and is talking about last night, which is that it’s all inside one mind. And that mind, it’s like if you go in enough, you’ll go out and become one with that mind. But but all of our atomic minds are aspects of that one mind, which is why there’s one reality that we all see

Rick Archer: So were all like little sense organs of one Cosmic Being.

Sally Kempton: yes, we’re a prison. We’re like, you know, if if we say the light has gone through a prison, that little dots Points of Light, that are on the other side of the prism are power consciousness, because your consciousness, but actually, it’s one light. So so they’re all these millions of individual perceivers. But the consciousness that seeing through them, there’s one and seeing

Rick Archer: Light that is one though the lamps the many incredible string string band.

Sally Kempton: Yes,

Rick Archer: good.

Sally Kempton: Yes. There’s, anyway, I don’t know how to answer your first question.

Rick Archer: The first question is, you’re talking about language as the as the method of manifestation. And I and superficial understanding of that, you know, no, one would assume you’re talking about human language, but humans weren’t around for the first many, many billion years. Yeah,

Igor Kufayev: Well, it’s actually not as complicated as it seems, not as complicated as it seems, in, in the sense that this very perspective, if we delve deeper into the perspective of these four, progressively manifesting levels of sound, from power to Vaikhari, or let’s say, power here stands from the one, you know, beyond, beyond of the beyond the ultimate, to the level of where it is literally manifesting as something manifesting as sound, which literally can be heard. And sound that can be heard, obviously, is the form form of that sound condensed does matter. Because all everything in the universe, all forms all forms is just that very

Rick Archer: Sound condensed as matter.

Igor Kufayev: That’s how it is essentially, different frequencies. So even in terms of this granite, I hope it is grounded, not a fake one, even if this is an Indian granite, so we can imagine the structure, molecular atomic structure is extremely dense, it is still a sound, it is still a sound condensed, and hitting that hard appearance of matter. So if we take that stand view for a moment,

Rick Archer: Let me just clarify something and let it continue. Ordinarily, we think of sound as, you know, fluctuations in air pressure, which our eardrums can pick up on, and we interpret that as sound. But you’re talking about not air as the medium, obviously, but something much more fundamental,

Igor Kufayev: I’m talking about the fundamental as scientists would use that, in terms of like when Menas will come back. We’ll ask him to back it up. Because this is precisely how scientists use the term sound. Sound is a frequency and everything is absolutely everything is a frequency just like everything is energy. For instance, the example of the glass that you have started this discussion with, we could have also looked at it that yes, it’s the conglomerate of molecules and atoms, but at the same time, it still exhibits the property of energy. And this is why spiritual experiences sometimes melt, melt, the so called in inverted commas, normal ordinary perception, the spiritual break Through the breakthroughs are usually that, that reality which we perceive through five or purchase right through the five sensory perceptions for which were equipped with the organs of cognition, which is really the anatomy of the spirit, and Yogic and Vedic and tantric spirituality. I mean, the spirituality, let’s say that has evolved and has been transmitted on Indian subcontinent is very unapologetic about this. So in other words, we can see everything just as energy, as well. But we do not perceive necessarily everything as energy until we do. So is in relation to our own, let’s say embodied individuality, this individuality that identifies with the body only perceive this as a matter. This is why we live in in time. Now, this time that we live in this, let’s say, phase in our evolution. The reason why we run into such predicament with everything is because of that, that temporal Eclipse and object objectification, to a degree where we perceive everything as just that matter, you see, while at the same time forgetting that there was no such thing as matter. It’s a degree degree of the frequency with which frequency compacts itself into something particular in Christian spirituality, for instance, right and Christianity with some known as Dragon like the vortex is, what are they called? We have here Francis, maybe he

Rick Archer: You know what he’s is talking about?

Igor Kufayev:  the like, the vortex is

Rick Archer: like a whirlpool anything

Igor Kufayev: where literally where the energy itself at the state of the collapse, to become something in particular. But I just don’t want to go away too much from the first question that you posed in terms of the language and this for progressive stages of sound. How come that when human beings, let’s say, we’re not around even right or there is this also understanding that correlates this for progressive levels of sound, with the epox, that we live in yugas different yugas this, and this are not to be understood in linear perspective. For those who are not familiar with Vedic concept of time or tantric concept of time, it is concentric other than linear. So this concentric understanding of time is much more profound compared to, let’s say, time in terms of yesterday, now and tomorrow. It doesn’t operate on doesn’t view reality in that way, rather, views reality in terms of manifestation of certain aspects of consciousness, or in terms of the liking of certain manifestation. In on manifested play, in other words, when there is a loss or loss of information, that what we know as different yugas and we know that the Golden Age, for instance, was known for 100%, of manifestation of all laws of nature, that were even even perceptible on the obvious plane of existence. And when they

Rick Archer: By laws of nature, you mean devas and certain more refined

Sally Kempton: different, different levels of subtle beings were perceptible in the

Igor Kufayev: exact

Rick Archer: Yeah, the whole, the whole picture was open,

Igor Kufayev: we could even imagine we couldn’t continue the one that in that state. In time, there was no necessity for language. Because what for? You see, there was no separation, the language arises. And this is historically when you can find the references that the you know, like the Tower of Babel, or if you want to go to the depths of the Vedic mythology. And you can see that the rise of the language sir, happens somewhere at the breakpoint when, let’s say 50/50, when there’s a 50% of laws manifesting are normally a split plane, and 50%. I simply lost the Maya, let’s say the density of Maya is that much more.

Rick Archer: So are you suggesting that everyone was just telepathic before that or something? No language?

Igor Kufayev: No, everything is in flux.

Rick Archer: I’m not saying they weren’t. I’m just saying is that what you’re saying?

Igor Kufayev: That’s exactly what I’m saying. Essentially, it’s the it’s the time when perhaps, the, the communication is not necessarily has to happen through this format. But as the diminishing takes place. And by the way, that also linked to the Vedic concept of dharma. Remember that the Dharma in the Golden Age stands on all four, and then it starts losing its legs. in Kali yuga Dharma stands on one leg. This is why we all need to grow it literally holding it together. This is the sort of, you know, so we live in a time when all this necessitates us, we have to have spiritual practice, we have to have religious revelations, we have to have language because otherwise we will simply constantly Miss communicate and look what happens with the language, the one with a language, we can sit together and talk local governments around the world and the politics and economics.

Sally Kempton: So well, I, I am agnostic about the yugas. And it’s very interesting that traditional systems believe that, that that, that this world is gradually what’s happening, it’s a kind of entropic situation where we started out very subtle and wise and become stupider and stupid.

Rick Archer: Cyclically

Sally Kempton: Cyclically, right, whereas, of course, West western view is, is that we are actually in a progressive situation, evolving towards greater consciousness, I have no idea, but it’s true. I do know that. In looking at traditional systems, it’s very important to take what you know, to kind of take what you can really feel internally is true, and not necessarily accept the aspects of it that are hard to swallow, or acceptance of, it has to be packed up that person will become very quickly. Exactly. And, and in those moments, when you are in a state of very subtle experience, you know, and for example, the insight that you’re talking about, they may have may sort of display itself before you as a realization, then that’s true for you. If if it’s not true for somebody else, then then in a certain sense, it it sounds as though you’re asked if it’s like that line and Alice in Wonderland, are you asking me to believe in? Or 24? impossible things before breakfast with me? Yeah. So. So in terms of what is it about Kashmir Shaivism. That is, that is really helpful for us today. And I’m, I love this understanding and, and the experience of the subtle worlds, which is, you know, I think for all of us who’ve done this kind of practice on a world experiences are delightful. And you know, and ecstatic. But to me, what’s more important is that you actually can, can experience the pulsation of divineness, of, you know, of, of non dual sweetness in your own body and in your emotions, and in the table and in the interactions. And, and that will allow you to, to really understand that God is you that God is in this, that, you know that that everything is contained in, in this atom of our body, because that’s what allows us, you know, to, really, to, to, to evolve to the point that I think all the traditions are asking us to evolve to, and it it does involve the thing about Shaivism and is it it, it really asks us to fully accept this manifest universe, and our own thoughts, streams and our own individual manifestation. To take it as seriously as we take you know, the realms of higher thought

Rick Archer: this

Igor Kufayev: maybe this is kind of an invitation to introduce a little bit, where Kashmir Shaivism itself comes from so to like that we give it a little bit of a even historical platform so that we can depart from it and because go beyond the historical platform,

Sally Kempton: yeah, I think it’d be helpful.

Igor Kufayev: Well, Sally just said is very important, because it takes us back to the very core of why receptive discuss this. And so, like, Would you like to?

Sally Kempton: Well, let me let me give a little piece of it and then when they knew me, let’s do it like radio lab, you know, when person says something, somebody else does it so you’re not listening to one person sort of droning on. So, the way that I I explained shut cash The cash flow show I have a worldview. You know, in the simplest way I know to explain it is to think of reality as as a great vast self recursive eyeness You know a consciousness and an agent who is who is non dual has no limits is totally vast and who is in this experience of, of I am it sort of self interaction self interaction self occurs, like constantly turning back on itself. And in in Shaivism, they say that this is self recursive one As this I am nervous, has the quality of consciousness and bliss awareness and bliss and they give it the name Shiva for the awareness part and Shakti for the bliss part. And, and they say that inside the Shakti the bliss, of consciousness is is powers of will knowledge and tremendous was talking about it last night. And that, that in the process of manifesting universes within itself, the Shakti aspect of supreme consciousness actually creates all the multiverses within her own body on her own screen, out of perfect freedom as play. And that’s the fundamental idea of, of Kashmir shy potential, all of this is constantly being manifested in the great mind, of, of, of consciousness who’s quiet, which in the Sanskrit is given a feminine form. So it’s the feminine aspect of which is why I call my, my workshops, the feminine path, it’s the, it’s a so called feminine because, of course, we’re beyond gender here, aspect of consciousness, that is, that is making everything within itself and that the idea in Shaivism, is that, that, that the ultimate is completely present, it’s a holographic model, and the ultimate is completely present in every atom of the universe, you know, just the way the whole holographic picture is, is present in every fragment of it. So, so, so that understanding at that overall understanding, which I think is that which is the as above, so below, as here, so elsewhere, recognition is then there’s been a very specific process of this ultimate reality manifesting through stages called Pathways, which means essence, you know, so that, it, it, that very subtle vastness becomes more and more particular. And that vast consciousness becomes an individual consciousness, and then then a mind and ego and, and the physical world, but, but always with the understanding that the whole is, is, is in the atom. So, so and the idea that the individual consciousness is, as one of my friends calls it baby faced gods. So the whole process, the whole, the whole tradition, is really there for for showing us and it does it very specifically, how your consciousness could be the same as the vastness you know? Of course it is it isn’t. But, but ultimately it essentially, essentially it is and that it’s a, it’s a tradition, it’s really all about helping you get that, you know, it’s a it’s a, it’s a practice, it’s a practice based tradition. So whether or not the talk was actually look like that, like they say, on the charts, which were obviously seen in meditation by some sages, but

Rick Archer: and the tattwas are?

Sally Kempton: Tattwas are, that the, the stages of, of the manifestation of that consciousness into this consciousness into this body. And, but the thing that Shaivism says, It’s so interesting is that creation is from the inside out. So, in other words, their position is that, that the contract with the individual consciousnesses comes first and then world this experience and that, of course, does not jive with Western theory of evolution, or the, you know, the, the, the belief that our or the, perhaps the truth, that that this physical universe started with the Big Bang and that, that human individuated consciousness came much later.

Rick Archer: So yeah, you just said, so, the individual consciousness comes first and then the creation, I would, I would have said, consciousness comes first, and then creation, but individual consciousness

Sally Kempton: Well, in other words, what I understand Shaivism to say is that, that the observer, the conscious the individual observer, is prior to what is observed. And that’s, in other words, in other words, this universe, this physical universe, exists to be experienced by a conscious observer

Igor Kufayev: is a very Sakhalin term, universal,

Sally Kempton: universal ego,

Igor Kufayev: which is unique, by the way, yeah, to Kashmir Shaivism unique because it many people when they misunderstand or understand that only to certain measure that creates a lot of perplexed if not confused, kind of ideas because what it, what it really means is that essentially there is nothing but Shiva and the very expositions of Shiva here is a pure awareness. Nothing but the absolute is nothing but that totality. And not only that, that notion of universal royalty which, sorry, I was just very beautifully explained through like, individual courses because it’s always individual consciousness, it’s always with one reference only,

Rick Archer: even if it’s a universal individual.

Sally Kempton: Yes,

Rick Archer: yes,

Igor Kufayev: yes,

Rick Archer: it may have to be before there are any biological entities around

Igor Kufayev: Kashmir Shaivism does not accept the notion of nothingness, it’s actually criticizing every stage that came, did its best to actually dismantle and show the weak side of the understanding of nothingness. So that ever since the was the rise of of the Kashmir Shaivism on the on the stage as a unique system, right, as a unique with very, very concisely formulated doctrines, there was this understanding of the universal we go at. And in fact, the term for she was under Tara. It’s also like amo is atom. You know, so I’m Tara is like an atom in the same group. I’m not stands for, for

Sally Kempton: the ultimate atom,

Igor Kufayev: the smallest of the small. In other words, it’s, this is very important. It’s like the very fabric of this consciousness, out of which everything is woven, is Shiva. And there is another very supporting also sloka which comes through some of the scriptures is that even the blooming the earth that the earth element, which is considered to be the manifestation of this was the most grossest, isn’t it is that the densest element is Shiva. Literally, it states that, in other words, yeah, it’s a completely different perspective of appearance and course, the Vedantic right, that Advaitic the Danzig concept of this world is an appearance in consciousness in Kashmir. Shaivism instead, views this reality as reality itself, beholding itself through the multitude of formal phenomena for its own glory. In other words, it cannot help it, but to admire itself. But in order to do that, it needs to be literally needs to break to the infinitude of forms. So that can save as many angles as it can to behold this magnificence. So this is one of the central points in Kashmir Shaivism is not the universal language. In other words, there’s no such thing as Rick’s, Sally’s, or Igor’s, or anyone else’s ego, there is no such thing as individual ego to start with. This is a very radical understanding, very radical, understand, this is on which Kashmir Shang is operates, that there is only agency, which is there was only one agent, and that agent is pure awareness, Shiva, who exemplifies here that archetypal quality of masculine spirit, right erected spirit. But Shakti is Shiva, in its form, in its form, as manifestation as dynamic powers of Shiva. So, it’s like the universal majority is very important aspect which aimed at showing through a very, very concise discourses and expositions that there is no even such thing as to consider yourself to be somehow this limited individual, that limited individual doesn’t even belong to the limited individual, but limited individual is she even described Yeah, that’s the beauty of the Kashmir Shaivism.

Sally Kempton: It’s helpful to understand that there’s a Shiva paradigm, which says that, that this consciousness, this absolute consciousness, exists at three levels with three different capacities for perception. So, so at the ultimate level eyeness Is the pure I am Shiva Shakti, the who’s where there is no form, everything is within itself. Everything is potential. There’s there’s absolute freedom of will knowledge and action, total bliss, total perfection, total consciousness. And then once this, this once there has been the refraction through Maya once there has been the veiling, what remains is, is consciousness which is it’s pure awareness that has no no, it has lost its capacities. In other words, it no longer is all powerful. No Longer all pervasive, it’s a limited consciousness and it’s Rex, Rex consciousness, it’s the place you get to in Buddhist, you know, in self inquiry when you, you know, when you go past the mind, you go through the mind to go past the body and you, you realize that you are pure consciousness, but it’s a limited consciousness at that point, because it’s its powers have been taken from it by Maya. And then then the third level is the level of im Omkara, the ego level of consciousness where you’re totally identified with your mind, your body, your personal history. And it’s interesting to to recognize that that that pure consciousness as we mostly understand it in spiritual practice today is not the ultimate consciousness, the ultimate consciousness is, you know, has been freed from the Vallely and is actually able to experience itself or herself or himself as all that is and and beyond. So it’s always an interesting question to ask yourself, Okay, who is my eye? Now? Is this my ego I identified with as Sally is this, is this that the pure awareness that is free from the body mind? Or, or am I actually experiencing myself as always, at this moment, and what Shaivism says is that you cannot regard yourself as, as a true non duelist if you’re, if you’re not actually experiencing this entire universe as a part of your, your own being as a part of your own body. So it’s a, it’s a very, very, very expensive understanding of

Igor Kufayev: what is also also fakes on the back of consciousness, consciousness, to that necessarily separation, where the self have to be separated from the non self, sort of, because it’s shares a lot with

Sally Kempton: Vedantists. Yeah.

Menas Kafatos: So yeah, in terms of the was the primary eye consciousness. Very practically, we experienced it every day, but we don’t pay attention to it. It is the perfect I awareness, which are the so called Pure levels of shavers, man is pure and impure does really share the connotation of good or bad, and I don’t want to go that way. But more has to do with unlimited versus limited, or unlimited, totally Unlimited, then partially limited and totally limited. So at the unlimited level, basically, you can have five levels of the ins. And the first two levels really considered one. It’s the Parma Shiva, para Shakti or the Supreme Self that is not separate from the infinite powers that he has. And Shakti, Shakti or Chitty, sometimes she is referred to, they’re the same, it’s really like a one coin or a coin that has only one side, we think of the coin, say, well, the coin is both of the coin, both sides, but actually, this major coin has both sides on one side, so there’s really no difference between them. The eye, and that don’t even exist yet in the mind of universal consciousness. But then there is a slight vibration, beginning vibration, which happens with the first and maybe the most fundamental power, which is the power of will, universal will. And then following the universal will is the power. And I’m saying then, of course, the game is a linear thing. It’s not linear at all. But let’s say subsequent to that, in the sense of emerging from it is the power of to know the IANA shots. First one’s called each shot. And then the third one is the karma Shakti, the ability to create your ability to do whatever universal consciousness wants to do. And eventually it becomes violent. And it creates it becomes karma, or karmic karmic consequences, but that’s pure level. Those five levels you can consider them as four levels, Christendom is three levels doesn’t matter. That’s so much numerology, but there’s just one i awareness. And it’s just the steering this is again the the idea of the spine, the steering, the vibration, that the universe begins to manifest as an idea, but not in at any human sense, but a concept in the Universal Mind. And the first steering of that, that Universal Consciousness is the self awareness. And that’s where, in fact, then he referring to the two letters A little while ago, of the Sanskrit Allah bid which eventually, of course, it gets you down to earth, to the earth level, this steering of consciousness goes through this happens through these three principles, or universal powers, of course, the infinite recipient powers is but for our ways of categorizing, we say it is the power to wail something is the power to know something, and that is the power to act on that something or in relationship to that something, that’s something this particular case eventually becomes a universe or maybe because many universe, in fact, because probably infinite universes, but that’s the first the first thing is the self awareness, the pure eye awareness. And then once you have that, then it’s beginning of the division, but not happened yet. Of that. So the I Am That is really the eye and that are the same at the beginning. It’s not there’s not am there is a verb that we just add there to make sense of the English, or some of the other languages, but this really I am that are one, the Muhammad ADA are the same. And then there’s a steering, and there’s the beginning to separate and you can do that with circles. So the first level where the manifestation begins to take place, you have the AI dominates. So really the the level of the willpower, it’s the will, I can know everything or I am about to project everything. And then in the subsequent level that dominates. And that is, oh, okay, I know the universe is about manifest so that we can and then at the Creator level, the two are balanced together. And the I ended that are totally balanced. And then below that, and again, below and above our special ideas that don’t really apply strict sense, but it is a way for us to convey what’s going on, then the great veiling power materializes, quote unquote, or becomes apparent, and veils with the five clocks, called cancer cards, she veils the powers of the Lord, and it is the cosmic rays from them then gives rise to time space limits. So time gives limits eternality, space limits omnipresence, then you have limited of the will. So as a human being, as Sally said, then we have a limited ability to do some things, but not everything. limited ability to know some things. And that becomes an adventure becomes limited knowledge. And then limited ability to do things which eventually gets us into karma. It gets into do actions and reactions and consequences of our actions.

Rick Archer: And I think I want to emphasize if my understanding is correct, that you’re not talking about this process of manifestation in some kind of chronological, historical, billions of years ago, you’re talking about it happening continuously right now. And

Sally Kempton: from everywhere, it happens in no time. And in fact, they say the blink of the eye, but even the blink of the eye is a fraction of a second, there’s no time there’s no

Rick Archer: space, it’s an ongoing bubbling up of creation from through all those levels that you just described.

Igor Kufayev: Are we allowed to speak from the experience? Because

Rick Archer: why not?

Igor Kufayev: Sometimes we’ll Buddha at the Gas Pump

Rick Archer: Is it allowed to any rules here? Okay,

Igor Kufayev: Because this is just kind of like, maybe to illustrate. It’s just beautifully elaborated. And I did mention that in our first interview, towards the very end, the dark manifestation that let’s say that the manifestation of Shakti and it’s triadic form, she works triadic form doesn’t make any difference, because as you said, it’s one at that stage, but as it breaks out into that, which is known as simply as that will, knowledge and action is actually directly exponential actually experience and gives us the understanding that what traditions operates is not some kind of imagined symbols, some kind of symbols that simply archetypically introduced to illustrate that doctrine or that philosophy, it is actually experientially available. It is that triangle that equal lateral, which at first experience Just as a breakthrough to which you simply perceive in yourself out of which a tremendous amount of light pours out. So when you said that, when you were, in order for anything to appear, there has to be a wheel, and the knowledge of how and the action to follow up with, right, and I’m really happy because he immediately added, but that does not happen in terms of sequence like it’s not first second, it literally happens all at once. And that was direct experience that I was relating that interview is that you actually become that triangle equal lateral, pure equilateral, and then your consciousness literally withdrawn into that equilateral then equal lateral itself is losing losing its space in the universe from their own simply press proceeds upon from your own being. This is why the direct realization of one sphere as she was nature is that universe is not created, sustained and dissolved, it literally comes out of my own being. And at some point, you even asked me, but you asked me, but you’re not, you’re not presupposing here that it’s coming out of you as ego, to which I was not able to reply to you because there was no such thing. At that stage there was the dissolution takes take place fully, it first became that this primordial energy is the energy of that will knowledge and action. And then the withdrawal of this of this energy into pure consciousness itself, where the universe is literally been pouring out in billions of universes per per fraction of a second. Of course, it’s like a mouth is being thrust into language. But when it was actually an ongoing experience, it was something which is very hard to convey, because it goes beyond the language simply becomes a limitation. But to illustrate that, because this is so the this philosophy is that these documents and these practices are not found on some kind of rational understanding of reality, but it is experienced directly. And then, like us all yogas, as all yogo says that verification of the knowledge through direct experience to direct partaking.

Rick Archer: So we had to move outside, we were taping the first part of this in the hotel bar, and the bar needs to open. So now we’re out on the patio. But we have about 15 minutes in which we’d like to conclude this conversation. And I’d like to start these 15 minutes by asking a question that similar to the one I asked in the beginning, but brings in a different element. And that is the element of it. That is the surprise and intelligence. And that is that, it seems to me, it would surprise me, it does surprise me that any scientist could be an atheist because science is looking at something that is so incredibly awe inspiring and marvelous. And there’s such vast complexity within a single cell. Within you know, a single molecule. There are laws of nature that are so brilliantly functioning and coordinated with one another that it seems to me it’s like God is staring them in the face. And so let’s just sort of play a bit with what Kashmir Shaivism or all of us in general might have to say about the divinity that seems to pervade everything and orchestrate everything.

Menas Kafatos: Well, let me just make a comment about scientists being  atheist, not all sides. They

Rick Archer: Oh I know I didn’t mean to say all were,

Menas Kafatos: but they are minority. Well, maybe they’re majority, who knows? I mean, there’s really no here we go.

Rick Archer: need to worry about the sign at all that was divinely orchestrated. So,

Menas Kafatos: what’s the Preventing point of view among scientists? I have no idea. But certainly there’s vocal minorities. Let’s put it that way that the militant atheists take it upon themselves to correct, you know, the wrong thinking among the public and more or less I feel like the all Inquisition except they’re not burning people at the stake. They would like though, to take away funding, close down departments. They are to cross the boundaries. You’re right. I mean, look, the great founders of quantum theory, they all had this profound understanding of the Divine and they talked about it, maybe not in, in the western terms of God, although quite often, or made the call of arms for his family, the yin and yang sign, and, of course, Planck said that you science takes us to the edge of the ego and then leaves us there. What’s that? So they’re all talking about the Divine Presence, I would say that what is going on many times with this atheists ideas, is to try to preserve particular positions, funding, and maybe PR and all of that books, writing books, and all of that stuff. But indeed, if you dwelve, into the deep parts of reality, science, it’s not really different from the great traditions, and it’s a gradation. And when scientists say there’s only one reality, well, after all, that’s what Shaivism says. It’s just again, different, different ways of expressing the same thing. So I agree with you. Yeah.

Rick Archer: So what do you have to say about the, the intelligence that seems to be just saturating every iota of creation and orchestrating its function,

Sally Kempton: I’d like to say one other thing about the God idea, you know, I do believe that part of the problem is that we have such a, we, we tend to associate modern people tend to associate God with, with what sometimes called the mythic God, in other words, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Joseph or, or the, you know, Shiva with his, with his dreadlocks and snake around his neck and it and it’s, it’s really important to, to, you know, to understand that God has another name for reality, or God has another name for for cosmic intelligence. And that, in that sense, it seems like, there there are more scientists who are not militant atheists than you would ordinarily think. But God is a hard word for, for modern people. Yeah. It’s almost, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s almost, it’s like, I often feel when I’m teaching that I have to get people’s permission to say God, you know, because and so often we go okay, so reality the DAO, righteousness, you know, whatever name you want to give it. So, the thing about, about tradition like Shaivism, or Kabbalah, for example, which is so much like Shaivism, the Jewish mystical tradition is that they exist within a traditional framework where, you know, where the story that God’s story is accepted by everybody. So people use it as a kind of a shorthand, right? And my guru used to say, Shiva, is not a Shiva is not a Hindu deity, Shiva is this, this crystalline divine intelligence is consciousness is at the heart of everything, and what I, what I think is very beautiful is to, to realize the both end. In other words, there, yes, it’s this divine intelligence, it’s completely impersonal, it’s inside everything. But it’s also as personal in a, you know, as, as a subtle as it’s a subtle, you know, reality inform it at that level of consciousness as it is in you and me on a physical level of consciousness. And that, that what the traditions let us do is hold those two perspectives. Yeah.

Igor Kufayev: There is no God outside of me.

Sally Kempton: There’s no God outside. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Igor Kufayev: Good. Imagine that. Realization.

Sally Kempton: Yeah,

Rick Archer: speak a little louder, and

Igor Kufayev: there’s no God outside of me, and there is no me outside of God. In other words, if someone wants to have that immediate sense of what God is,

Rick Archer: I guess another way of putting it as God is in everything and everything is in God.

Igor Kufayev: Well,

Rick Archer: or is that different? Is that a different statement?

Igor Kufayev: There is no God outside of me. And there is no mean outside of God. Right? It’s a kind of a double affirmation. It leaves you nowhere but ignored, and leaves go nowhere, but in you. It’s a very, very comforting realization, very comforting realization, even now, even if it only takes place on that level of mental realisation, it’s still valid, it is still learning. Because what it does, it creates this way, it creates this possibility that that what is the ultimate what is indestructible because it simply doesn’t come into existence and doesn’t come out of existence. Its existence itself, existence flows out of that, and being reemerge back into that which gives birth which sustains and dissolves and that is nowhere but in me. And that is also awesome. That meat is no way.

Sally Kempton: And the thing that so subtle about it is is true. realize that, that when you say I am that or I am Shiva, that you’re you’re not, you’re not talking about ego. Yeah, and yet you are so. So it’s, that’s the subtle, that’s the subtlety that has to be realized, right? But yes, you have, in other words, that the ego does have to die in order to realize that, that you are that is the reality. And so So Shaivism is often, and tantra itself is often seen as it people often take it to sort of inflate the personal ego, right? Because if you’re saying I have that, you know, often at a certain level you’re going I am that but it’s not an inflation it’s not to inflate yourself and and that that’s what’s that’s why it’s another realization Oh,

Rick Archer: Christ said I am the Way the Truth and the Life and I’ve gotten in trouble for that. And there was a Sufi saying I forget his name, who said Western Masonic is that the guy who was dismembered on the public square for saying, I am God, and he wouldn’t stop saying anyone’s, they were dismembering.

Igor Kufayev: Sally just said, I want to go back to Luke because this is very important. It’s tremendously important. Because it’s so subtle, because the realization there is no me outside of the God. And there is no God outside of me the realization, it’s actually happened simultaneously on so many levels, and unless unless it sacrifices immediately the separate existence of myself from the lowercase, then it’s not really realisation because this is what’s really exciting to have that it’s when it’s in other words, when the opposite of that whatever that you know, focal point suddenly opens up, you realize that, as an opportunity do not exist, you do not exist as this opportunity outside of that, which who you are, and that is what Kashmir Shaivism is. So with recycled development. It’s the realization of the utter utter magnanimity of your nature. But it’s a devastating realization, because it always at the cost of the inhalation of that which you consider yourself to be. As the Kashmir Shriver Scriptures speak about that, and even verb also followed by the realization that you can never be ignorant because that’s only belongs to the play or belongs to that contraction, and expansion within the Shiva within the heart of Shiva has expanded. So this is also very humbling realization, very, very fumbled realization that there is no such thing like, you know, neither prior to realization, no personalization.

Menas Kafatos: So what, what, perhaps, shamanism is a complex system, so we can really add to it. And that’s not that’s not really purpose here. In terms of making sense, or bringing into the, let’s say, the quantum level, or the everyday life, some, some ways perhaps can be added to the understanding some of these principles derives principle. And this principle of complementarity that we’ve been talking about. It’s also highly misunderstood in scientific terms, it was proposed by Niels Bohr. And today, mostly, it’s ignored, because he’s just philosophy and didn’t really doesn’t really matter very much. But actually, it matters a lot. And it is one of the ways that universal consciousness manifests universe at every level, from the very, very top supple top level, in terms of the opposites are not really purposes, but they’re complementing each other. And that’s why bar adopted the yin and yang symbol. The Yang does not exist without the Yang, you know, they’re, they’re together. They’re intertwined. Yeah. So, complementarity recursion, which has here, so elsewhere, which was also in the Shiva Sutras. And the third one is the creative interactivity, or sentience, which is really the Ananda part. It’s the bliss of the self, which gives rise to everything because of this juxtaposition of the AI and the that, which comes out of the comes out of the love, right? These three principles apply at every level. And they’re very scientific. And one has to contemplate them. Because complementarity, again, can be dismissed as well. You’re just talking about opposites. No, it’s not about opposites about how the opposites merge into each other, but they’re also separate in some ways, but But another point of view. So as you were saying, the individual and cosmic consciousness, they are the same but not in the same way they, you know, they merge together but not at the same time they have a separate existence depending on where you view it from. So, in terms of going back to the word God, I tend generally to also avoid it, because it comes with a lot of baggage. And nowadays I have to tell you, consciousness is becoming a word with too much baggage. Yeah, I’m really beginning to forget that now shifted into awareness. And actually, I prefer to use the the Sanskrit terms for consciousness. There’s so many beautiful terms, because why not use them? Yeah, Chitty Shakti, Kundalini, you know, on and on and on, very vibrates and smother. You know, they’re all of these different names of consciousness questions today has become another in a way, another word like God,

Sally Kempton: and nobody knows what it means anyway.

Menas Kafatos: Most of these disagreements are really about what is meant by you know, scientists and philosophers are argued, and if you neither by consciousness, they’re really talking past each other there. None of them. Nobody’s saying,

Igor Kufayev: I can I can I just yeah, just the word madness very beautifully now expanded upon the polarities. They’re not the opposites, but one contains and the other and one cannot exist without the other, she was as good as dead, right as the tantric tradition goes, unless he is accompanied by Shakti as his own manifestation, as everything as energy as the water and so forth. So, in terms of our personal experience, upon the realization and upon the integrity phases, which are unnecessarily accompany this process, when we necessarily return to that consciousness, which is the mundane, so to speak consciousness of our reality, to do and interact, right, because we cannot be in Chivas consciousness all the time. You know, this, this value will simply not exist in the cache with scriptures acquired and apologetic about that. So we have to go back because they were then that is mercy of Shiva itself up on that form. But we return with a very qualitatively different realizations, in other words, our individuality that becomes sacred, because it went through that sacred act of realizing who we are, in essence, and then we and then there’s the second AHA realization, that our even that individuality goals is very sacred, that individuality becomes sacred because it’s in the form of Shiva. It’s an aspect of Shiva in its reflected status, something that can be called Shiva, through the multitude of expressions.

Sally Kempton: Beautiful. You just thought I actually wanted to add one more piece

Rick Archer: before I speak last because these two gentlemen just said a bunch of stuff. So why don’t you make some concluding remarks,

Sally Kempton: I actually was going to talk about the the the factor in Kashmir Shaivism that is, so incredibly significant as as an aspect of our own spiritual capacity, which is the understanding that because Shakti has veiled everything, Shakti has to remove the veil. So in other words, you can it is literally impossible. As an individual to realize the truth no matter no matter how much effort we make, no matter how smart we are, no matter how much practice we do, we can only take ourselves up to a certain point. And beyond that, it is really the will of Shakti, the will of Shiva, that that gives us the capacity to see through the veil. And that’s the thing that, you know, that’s the ineluctable reality that makes it so difficult for the modern, you know, non devotional mind to get, because normally the way that that that that unveiling happens is, is through the arousing of a kind of combination of love and knowledge. And the love is very much a part of it. So, so, in other words, the, the experience of having the veil removed is an experience of kind of opening up to the vulnerable love saturated Shakti infused quality of grace in the individuals life. Without that, you know, knowledge is just knowledge, it doesn’t move you through the veil. It drives you Yeah, even you know and even even your realization without that aspect, does it transform you ultimately and and I think that in the understanding of non duality, which is, you know, which all of us have found so, you know, so So such a profound basis for conversation and community. It’s really very important to understand that non duality is just a concept without grace without, without that, that gift of, of connectedness between the individual and the divine both, both within and without. So I just wanted to, to close with the salutation to Shakti, who veils and reveals to the power of the five powers of the Divine which include concealment, that is, the absolute hiding of the face of, of the Divine, and the revelation of of its presence, which hopefully is really the outcome of this conference, and it’s conversation for all of us.

Rick Archer: Thank you, and I’ll make my concluding remarks much shorter than usual. Thank you all for participating this and those who have made it this far through the conversation, please go to and enjoy