Theresa Cheung Transcript

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Theresa Cheung Interview

RICK: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer. Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of interviews with spiritually Awakening people have done nearly 600 of them now. If this is new to you and you’d like to check out previous ones, please go to bat gap comm bat gap and look under the past interviews menu. This program is made possible through the support of appreciative listeners and viewers. So if you appreciate it and would like to help support it, there’s a PayPal button on every page of the website. And there’s also a page of other ways to about other ways to donate if you don’t want to use PayPal. My guest today is Theresa Chung. Welcome Teresa.

THERESA: Hello, Rick. Hello.

RICK: Hello. Teresa’s in the UK. She says she lives near Windsor Castle, which is not entirely relevant to this interview, but something she told me given the weekend. Yeah, true. She said she did an interview yesterday with some outfit Australia right. And they wanted to know about Harry and Megan the whole time.

THERESA: Asked me to be their royal correspondent. Yeah.

RICK: That’d be Mr. Calling. Anyway, Theresa was born into a family of spiritualist, she’ll explain what that means. She has a master’s degree from King’s College, Cambridge, and has written numerous best selling dream afterlife, Angel ritual and spiritual books and encyclopedias, including to Sunday Times top 10 best sellers. She has been a guest on Russell brands under the skin, which I listened to the other day, that was pretty funny. It must be hard being interviewed by him. He’s like bouncing off the walls. The two of us were bad. I’ve listened to a lot of his podcast, he’s very funny guy. And also on Coast to Coast AM and featured in numerous newspapers and media. And the titles of some of your books are the truth about angels. Let’s see dictionary, Dream dictionary, A to Z. The premonition premonition code at the afterlife is real, the sensitive soul. So those are some of your books. And we’ll be talking about all those things. And this will be a free flowing conversation. As I always tell my guest Teresa, just don’t restrict yourself to what I happen to think to ask you if something comes to mind that you’d like to talk about, just launch into it. And people will be sending in some questions also. So just have a lot of fun for the next couple of hours. So where would you like to start? I’ll let you decide. Among other things, we’re going to talk about where would you like to start? At the beginning. All right, let’s start there. Yes.

THERESA: You want to know why. All this I was kind of born into it. My mother was a professional astrologer medium. That’s what our family was like, you know, I grew up believing everybody could talk to dead people or consult tarot cards or whatever. And and then somehow, I was blessed to get a place at King’s College, Cambridge to read theology because I’m interested in spirituality. And of course, when I went to Cambridge, I realized that not everybody talks to dead people, or believes in astrology and crystals and all that. And it’s been I hate that word, journey. But it’s been a lifelong journey now of trying to understand the spiritual, the esoteric, and writing many, many books about it. And all of my books, actually, if you go back in time, because I’ve been doing this 20 years instead, I’ve been blessed. I’ve been with all the major publishers writing about this. I can see it’s me trying to actually learn along the way. Yeah, you know, my intuitive understanding of it, because it’s what I’m born into, and my doubt has played a huge part in it as well. Because I do actually the point place on that now, which is really interesting is is doubting a lot. And, you know, and thinking or don’t believe everything because you’re told it you know, alarmed at the, at the moment in the world, how many people are so very gullible and willing to follow so easily. So that’s where I am. That’s why my latest book, The Truth about angels actually looks at this what is going on in the new New Age movement at the moment, all these gurus we have everywhere, all these people. And I’m looking into that. So as you can see, I am a serial writer, serial spiritual writer. And in some ways I was looking at you actually, before I did this interview, you have interviewed so many people and you’ve kind of got to a place you said where you don’t feel you belong anywhere. Now you’re too much of a rebel to be, I read that somewhere that you felt that you were a kind of a rebel and you had your own individualistic view now of spirituality kind of. And I mean, I found that interesting. I don’t throw

RICK: the baby out with the bathwater. I respect all kinds of thought authorities or traditions and whatnot. But um, you know, like you were saying about doubt, there’s a, there’s a famous quote from the Buddha, where he says, you know, don’t believe anything, just because somebody says it, even if I say it, the Buddha’s saying, you know, you know, check it out with your own thought processes with your own discrimination and determine, you know, what, what veracity it may have, he didn’t use those words. But that kind of a point. I think that spirituality should be a scientific enterprise. I think that a scientific way of thinking is extremely helpful to a spiritual aspirant. And I also think that spirituality has things to offer science that science will be very impoverished without, and I know that you’re very interested in that. And you’ve been, you know, involved with folks at ions and Institute of Noetic, sciences, and so on.

THERESA: Well, I actually co authored with Dr. Julia moss bridge, when she was still a scientist at ions. I now believe she’s a fellow and has moved on.

RICK: Julia, she did a Heart Math test on me one time.

THERESA: She’s a force isn’t she. And it’s wonderful that that book, actually I did, because I, as I said, I’d written book after book after spiritual topics, but I wrote wrote about them. From a believers perspective, a lot of my books were collecting true experiences of people who’ve had near death experiences, afterlife signs, pre cognition. And I wasn’t aware of the science out there. I mean, I was creating all these books for the converted, if you were, and it was only when I stumbled across the Institute of Noetic Sciences about six years ago that it blew my mind that there were scientists out there, looking at the inner world in the same way as the external world and analyzing it as data. And I have stalked them ever since. And they actually very kindly awarded my readers a landing page, because I talk about them so much now, so that if you’ve read a tree that Chungbuk, like the afterlife is real, or an angel called my name. That was my Sunday Times, top 10, which is people who believe in angels. And if you’ve read this, and you want to learn more about the science, go to this landing page. And there are three free gifts from the Institute of Noetic Sciences on there, like a chapter of Dean’s book, Dean wrote, you know, a lecture didn’t read. And he did the foreword to the premonition code for myself and Julia, which was wonderful. And that book to go back to that book was wonderful because you had someone like me, who the scientific community would probably, you know, kind of thing. They’re, they’re laugh at me in a way, because I come at it from a very, it’s sort of, I lived it, I was born into it. And here are stories, non scientific, collaborating with someone like Dr. Julia moss bridge. And we created this rather strange book, but which has now got a kind of a cult following of its own called the premonition code. Where I’m going through the book, I do feel a bit like the comic relief in the book going, but Julia, I don’t understand. Tell me about physics. And she’s sort of like, okay, Teresa, here we go and explain it. And she’s created this sort of scientific system to test free cognitives. But what she needed for that book was my database because maybe because I’m accessible, I don’t know or because I’ve simply been around so long people you know, have got a treat the Chungbuk, especially in the UK, if you’re interested in the paranormal, they write to me, I leave my email address in all my books. So I’ve got this database of stories of people who have experienced precognition or intuition or afterlife encounters. And that played into the book as well. So it was a wonderful combination of science meets spirit actually happening together. And that books now being translated in so many languages, we had a website. It made the front page of The Daily Mail over here before I went on to Russell Brand to talk about it. So it was a wonderful calculation, but since then, I still continue to stalk the Institute of Noetic Sciences. And I’m still in regular touch with them and I really enjoy that I’ve had all them all of them on my podcast talking to me. Are not Delhomme Helena. You know, Gareth. Yes. The whole dean of course, Mystique. Yes. Yes. The I think if there was a movie about scientists, they would have to cast Dean you know, aside. He’s just how you would imagine a scientist studying the paranormal to be like, but he was terrific fun on my podcast.

RICK: He’s actually such a sense of humor, actually.

THERESA: Yes, yes. So yeah. So they’re all on my podcast. And that form the basis of season one of my podcast was my interviews with all these scientists. But I also had Penny Sartori on there, and even Alexander, who has become a kind of friend I’m Tim, when he came to the UK, we had a coffee together. And he was fascinating to listen to as well. On the podcast, he talked about his near death experience. So and then since then, I’ve just gone on to do more and more interviews with practitioners, experts, authors on my podcast.

RICK: That’s good. I listened to a few episodes of it. It’s called Hide quite shores. Is that what it’s called?

THERESA: Do you know why it’s called? What?

RICK: I don’t know. Lotus? Oh, really? I forget that reference.

THERESA: In McKellen as Gandalf, I think it’s, I think it’s in the second or third, I can’t remember I’m not that. But basically the hobbits think they’re going to die, because the orcs are attacking. And he says, I fear death. And and Gandalf turns it into you needn’t fear it, because and then he has this beautiful speech, it’s on YouTube. And you look at the feet, and he says, it’s white shores. It’s a far green country under a different sunrise. And he says, well, that’s not so bad, is it? You know, he’s comforting that there is life after death. And it’s called White shores. And of course, that beautiful scene at the end when Frodo goes off in the boat. So it’s my I love Lord of the Rings. And it was kind of tribute to that. And in the first episode, it was great fun, because I asked all the scientists if they could be a character in Lord of the Rings, which one would it be? Guess which one the most of them chose? Probably. Gandalf. Yeah. Yeah. Some of them chose the ring, or the ring

RICK: itself? Yeah.

THERESA: I do, in a way, what I’m trying to do, because we do talk about really sort of, you know, paranormal topics, science of consciousness. But to do that, in that light hearted way seems to have worked because the book podcast has proved quite popular, probably because it is so surreal. When you listen to

RICK: this nice. Your Lord of the Rings reference reminded me of a scene from Star Wars where Obi Wan Kenobi is fighting Darth Vader. And he says to Darth Vader, if you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine. And then he ends up getting struck down. And but then, you know, he’s kind of working from the other side after that.

THERESA: But you see movies, these iconic movies like Star Wars, and Lord of the Rings, I firmly believe the reason they have touched so many lives is the underlying spirituality. It’s a way to teach these spiritual lessons in a way that wouldn’t maybe necessarily reach people with the earnest podcasts or books, because I had this idea, actually. And that’s how I ended up talking to Piers Morgan, you know, because I had this idea of the force in Star Wars. And I teamed up with the head of the Jedi church to write a book called become the force. And that was an interesting project. I mean, it’s I’m not an obsessive Star Wars fan. I just thought, all those people queuing up in the theater to see Star Wars. What they’re queuing up for really isn’t the special effects and all that and the actors, it’s the spiritual theme, the force, we all understand what that is. So that that was an interesting project to work on, as well. As I see, I’ve tried very different ways to bring spirituality out of just talking to the converted all the time. I really love also engaging with skeptics. That’s why I went on Russell Brand. You know, he’s not a skeptic. He is actually very inclined. But you know it that’s a fun episode to listen to, because you’ve got him going. When I’m talking about life after death, and all that, but I’ve also, Michael Marshall, who is a well known guardian, critic, scan skeptic over here, I’ve sparred with him. And I love doing that because it I’m not trying to convert anyone. But I’m just trying to talk to people who normally wouldn’t engage in spirituality, because I do all the festivals and the talks and everything. But nine times out of 10 the people who listen are inclined to believe anyway. And I think it’s really interesting when people from totally different backgrounds as well, I love the premonition code with Judea. You had a scientist, a neuroscientist with a general spiritual writer, it was it was interesting mix. And I like that I like pushing the boundaries if you weren’t in a way and getting dialogue about these issues about what’s the meaning of life. Why are we here?

RICK: Yeah. Well, as you know, there are many scientists who aren’t really scientific, as Dean often discusses, and David Laura Marie O’Neill, with the Galileo commission and people like that, that, you know, they they basically have the attitude, well, you say you’ve got all this data about premonition or life after death or whatever. But that can’t be true, therefore, I’m not going to look at it. Now, that’s not a scientific attitude. And, you know, to my way of thinking, anything could be a viable hypothesis to investigate angels, for instance, and you’re going to talk about angels today. Do they exist? Well, you may doubt it in a belief but you’re not really know, and you can investigate it. And maybe there’s some evidence that ought to be looked at. And, you know, two couple 100 years from now maybe people look back and think it was ridiculous that there was this schism between science and spirituality, there’s just reality and both bring different tools to the table for exploring it.

THERESA: Absolutely. It’s part of the human experience since man, woman began, people have had these supernatural these supernormal experiences, or they’re part of the human experience. Why on earth deny them? I’m very much I don’t know the reason for them. But why not study them? Why not understand them? I don’t think also, you should put people on a pedestal who have these powers, or these visions. I don’t believe that either. How’s that going to help you, I think it should be all about your direct personal experience and activating that angel gene within you rather than following someone who says I’ve seen angels. And that’s what my latest book is about. It’s about you know, if you want to see angels start behaving like one star, activating it, you know, look in the mirror and smile at yourself with eyes of true love, because most people struggle to love themselves. That’s where you start with a bit of self love and, you know, grow your own wings. And that’s what I like to see more of at the end. As I move towards the latter part, the Twilight part of my writing career because I really am a serial writer, you know, you have serial killers, but I’m a serial right? I’ve written so many spiritual books now, it’s a blessing to be in that position. But what you know, the the pandemic Teresa

RICK: scripter, instead of Jack the Ripper, you got to read through the script.

THERESA: Right? That’s my new, that’s my. But you know, what’s COVID the pandemic has done in a way. Sounds, it’s, it’s kind of unleashed me in a way because I was getting ready to wind down. And then suddenly, in early 2020, I got these major companies like, you know, over here, beauty bay or anthropology, the clothing store, suddenly saying, Look, everybody’s dreaming. Right, because of lockdown the furloughs? Can you explain? Can you help what’s going on? And for me, in a way that was like, Oh, my goodness, because for me, dreams are the door to the unconscious there that there that’s the first step the opening the beginning. I because most people who are rational or logical or discount spirituality, they’re still interested in their dreams because they have them. My husband, for example, he’s very logical and rational, but he’s very interested in dream interpretation, because he gets that. So what you what I did found, I was able to do through all these requests to go on radio, TV, or whatever to talk about the meaning of the most common dreams was actually to get people to think spiritually and to think beneath the material beneath the surface. For example, if you dream you’re falling, are you on supported in your life? What is your unconscious, your intuition trying to tell you, and you get people thinking like that, that opens the door. And then you can start bringing in other concepts and other ones. And it’s been incredible 2020 Actually the interest in spirituality. But I guess that tends to happen in times of crisis, that people do seek deeper meanings. We’re talking life and death here. So we’re seeking deeper meaning, like,

RICK: there might be something else going on, too. I noticed I started dreaming more. When the pandemic said in and I wasn’t radically changing my lifestyle, since I’m not like a social gadfly. Anyway, but I, then I heard a story about it on on the news. So they’re asking some doctor about it. She said, Well, it’s just because people are sleeping more, therefore they’re dreaming more. But I think there’s something more to it, which I think perhaps there’s some kind of enlightenment of the field of the forest, if you will, taking place in the world. And that’s kind of stirring things up for people more and therefore they’re dreaming more, or you think about that.

THERESA: But I think it’s your intuition. Your internal therapist, you’re in tuition, it’s in the name speaking to you, and trying to help, because it’s the part of you that wants to help and heal because it’s been so chaotic, filled with grief and loss last year. And what it’s doing is through this awakening of dreaming, it’s called the lockdown dream phenomenon. I’ve been asked so many times about it. And yes, there is a biological reason people sleeping patterns have altered. And of course, when that happens, if you have altered sleeping patterns, it’s not that you’re sleeping more, it’s often that altered sleeping patterns. That’s why you tend to dream more on holiday because you’re a bit jet lagged and you get more REM rapid eye movement sleep. Also our mornings have slowed down instead of rushing off to work or your chores, you’re at home. So you have longer for these images to come to your consciousness and recall them. That’s that those there are biological rational reasons. But I think there’s a deeply spiritual reason for the I’m trying to say so much that I want to say thank you Dreams. Everybody dreams, right? Whatever your age, your race, your culture, your political belief.

RICK: Whatever your species, I mean, even dogs dream, you can see them kicking their legs making little noises.

THERESA: Absolutely. But it’s the dream to destroy our shared humanity. And didn’t isn’t that what we need to be reminded of right now that we are all shared humanity, we all share this consciousness. And I think that’s why dreams came to the fore. It’s a powerful spiritual wake up call. We are all linked, whoever you are, you’re going to dream. But also, it’s connecting you to that part of yourself, which knows the bigger picture of your life, which has your best interests at heart. And I think in the modern world, we’ve just disengaged from that unconscious, intuitive part of ourselves. Because our lives are so busy so fast, so much materialism, so much passive consumption of what’s on our phones and in the media, that we switched off that inner guide. But the pandemic forced us all back into it. And he expressed itself through dreams. And, and of course, right now, dreams are never more at this. Because Netflix number one over here is that paranormal thriller behind her eyes, which I don’t know if it’s over there in the States, but it’s absolutely huge over here, and it’s all about lucid dreaming. Yeah, yeah. And it’s just like it people have just gone. So much interest into it, what’s going on, because it’s a psychological thriller. But it takes lucid dreaming as the doorway going into your dream. And it’s just I’m sure, I’m sure it was a New York New York Times bestseller, so I’m sure it will, you know, it’ll, it’ll, it’ll, it’ll be over there on Netflix, too. And so many people, it’s a big talking point online, behind her eyes behind her

RICK: eyes. I mean, she says the Great. Netflix, we serve, we have an erotic Netflix subscription, we unsubscribe and subscribe

THERESA: very. It’s very dark, Rick, so I wouldn’t advise it because but that’s what I tried to do to remove the fear and woo supernormal if you want a really positive recent addition is of course the Disney Pixar movies

RICK: software. That’s great. Yeah.

THERESA: Heaven. And I in 2019, I interviewed Dr. Lauren Carpenter, who is an ions fellow. And he was co founder of Pixar, and science director at Disney before he became an item’s fellow. So it did not surprise me at all, that Disney was going to serve up the afterlife and a near death experience for children in animation. Because of talking to Dr. Lauren Carpenter, and this is, you know, the co founder of Pixar. There’s so many spiritual concepts actually, in Disney movies. Yeah, if you look at it,

RICK: well, if you think about it, you know, I mean, a lot of people are talking about some kind of spiritual awakening taking place in the world, you know, on a global scale. And some of them have rather strange interpretations of how it’s supposed to play out. But, you know, people have been talking about this for a long time and anticipating it. And, you know, maybe it’s really kicking in now. And it’s this, if anybody’s ever been on a spiritual retreat, you probably experienced that they’re your dreams intensified, incredibly, had all kinds of vivid dreams, profound things. And so the whole world is, to a certain extent, on a spiritual retreat. Now, if you want to call it that around a retreat, whether you make it spiritual or not, I guess is another matter. But there’s definitely kind of an enlightenment taking place, I think in global consciousness, and it’s impacting everyone’s psychologies, everyone’s the way we function and our dreams, I guess you might say that we’re more open during our dreams during sleep than we are in the waking state, generally. And so naturally, we might notice kind of more profound things happening during sleep than in the waking state, more likelihood,

THERESA: we’re meeting ourself in our dreams, were understanding and that’s the goal of therapy, counseling, actually, the goal of a good therapist and counselors to get you to understand yourself better. And I think that’s the journey of our lives as a self understanding. But we do that every night in our sleep. We’re going into this symbolic world, wherever we everything’s represented symbolically, and we’re understanding aspects of our own personality. As I say, it’s like that the movie references will come in with me that’s what I’m like. I’m a real movie buff inception. Of course. You know, when you everybody stops and stares at the dreamer.

RICK: Right? Leonardo DiCaprio

THERESA: it isn’t because I I also follow Leonardo DiCaprio as well as ions. You know, that’s what I love these big movies. They can awaken interest in these concepts in such a way. But what I hope once the pandemic We will go back to a sort of normal, I really hope that this love affair the world has had with their dreams won’t go away. And people will keep recording and recall playing their dreams and look at their dreams. And I do think it’s extremely powerful. If anyone gets anything out of the interview this interview, please don’t think your dreams are nonsense and random, write them down and look at what the dreams are trying to tell you. And don’t just think one dream has a message. Often it’s a series of dreams, a bit like Netflix series, you know, you’ve got to look at the mall, and see what you’re trying to tell yourself. Your intuition is trying to tell you. But there is a category of dreams, also a very rare category, which I believe have psychic elements because I get so much mail about it, or pre cognitive. And that’s another area which suggests there’s so much within us that we have no idea about.

RICK: And would you say there’s a category of dreams that aren’t really dreams. I mean, for me, the most profound experiences I’ve ever had in my life have been during sleep, I you know, just counting on the fingers of one hand, you know, and I’ve been meditating for 53 years, but some really profound things. But they didn’t seem like dreams, because they were just so significant and profound and intense and whatnot. I mean to she’s saying over there. So, and it’s probably because of the innocence and the openness of the condition you’re in when you’re asleep, you can kind of be receptive to levels of cognition or experience that you are not so receptive to, even in a meditative state when you’re awake,

THERESA: when your conscious mind is so controlling, isn’t it, and it won’t allow the intuition to surface. But of course, when you sleep, your intuition reigns, it has free rein to express itself. Yes, and I call these rare kinds of dreams night vision, that they’re marked often, because most of our dreams, I would say about 99% are symbolic. They’re just as valuable because they’re all really helpful messages. Where your dreaming mind expresses itself through symbols and metaphors. But personal symbols are metaphors that you’ve got to learn the language of, I always say when you dream, it’s like going to another country. And if you want to understand the culture, you need to understand the language. So you need to go on a crash course of understanding your personal symbols like everybody, you know, if a cat for example, if you dream of a cat, everybody has a different personal relationship with cat, some people love them, some people not so much. So you’ve got to interpret dreams, not so much from the universal interpretation, but from your personal one. And that’s where often a lot of people fall down, they think, Oh, I dreamt of this. And it’s gonna mean X, Y, and Zed. But also just a little bit more before we go into the rare kind of dreams, these symbolic dreams also often tend to have a lot of fear in them. And people say, Well, why is that? And that’s because the dreaming mind wants to get its message across. And sometimes being gentle and giving you nice dreams on a holiday in Hawaii, it is not enough. Sadly, it’s like being cruel to be kind. Sometimes nightmares and fear will come in. For example, if you’re being chased in your dream, what are you running away from what aspect of yourself do you need to turn around and deal with, and all that and also, if you have a dream of death, a lot of people have dreams of death. And this is where the symbolic interpretation is so important. If you dream of someone dying, and you’re you know that, you know, it does not mean to say they’re going to die, you got to look at the symbolism death is an ending but a new beginning. So perhaps your relationship with that person is going through a transformation. But to go back to what you were talking about night vision, which I believe is a small category, there is a difference. Symbolic dreams tend to be a bit like a music video, a lot of shifting images doesn’t really make sense. But night vision, it tends to have a beginning a middle and feel very vivid and realistic. And I think that’s like a doorway to somewhere. If you believe in the spirit of the afterlife, the unseen realm. It’s a door that you’re going to there. And I have had a few of these night visions in my life. And my goodness, they typically tend to be when I meet departed loved ones. And I have a very vivid, realistic conversation with them. And when I wake up, it’s like I have talked to them. It felt so so real. And I did a lot of research into this night she found that the research shows that in 90 Over 90% of cases, people who dream of departed loved ones do recover better with the grief. It’s a very healing thing to happen as well. But I call them afterlife signs later life is visitations. And I think these experiences should be studied. I just know.

RICK: tempted to tell you some of my night visions but I don’t want to talk about me too much.

THERESA: Oh, no. Please do that. That’s that’s I’d love to hear. Tell me please.

RICK: Well, I’ll start With the most profound one, and we’ll see if I get into any of the others. But the most profound one, I was asleep, my body was and I was ushered into a room. And I was asked to lie down on my stomach on a pallet of some sort and hang on to a couple of handles, at shoulder height like, and some being came in with a stride under a spear and started stabbing up and down my spine like stabbing and it was the most excruciating, intense thing I’d ever experienced. And I’m summarizing here. And when I woke up from it, I woke up like, kind of in a sweat. But feeling as I gain ordinary consciousness, the greatest bliss and sense of liberation I’d ever felt like as if I had been bound by steel bands for all of eternity, and they’d been broken. And I just walked around in a state of awe for several days, because I felt so transformed by that. And then I later discovered just a few years ago that this was like back in 1980. This happens, I later discovered that Tibetan Buddhism or something has a practice where you’re supposed to imagine Lord Shiva stabbing your chakras with his trident. And I think maybe somebody had that experience that I had, and then tried to reverse engineer it into a practice. So that was one

THERESA: of them. Incredible.

RICK: It was like if I’ve had any significant awakening in my life, that was

THERESA: the biggest. Did you know about this ceremony? No, this practice

RICK: that this the dream happened in 1980 or so and I just heard about this thing a couple years ago, this there was some such tradition.

THERESA: I mean, that is such an incredible scenario to just, you know, come out of nowhere. And the fact that you felt bliss on wakening

RICK: really transformed just like it’s

THERESA: it’s it’s basically the the darkness before the dawn, it’s the pain before burns released what? Yes, it’s about and sometimes I always say in my books, you don’t go to heaven, you grow to heaven, growth hurts. And the only way to grow is out of your comfort zone.

RICK: Okay, another one quickly. So the experience was just complete unboundedness into just unbounded awareness. And then gradually, gradually, a thought started coming. And I started thinking, Holy mackerel, I am having one heck of a meditation, I don’t even remember starting to meditate, oh, this is beautiful. And then I kind of experienced I was sitting in load, and I became aware of my body, I was sitting up in lotus, having this meditation, this unbounded awareness. And then again, summarizing, I realized, I’m fast asleep, I’m lying on the bed, this whole thing was happening just sort of sums

THERESA: things up. So you knew you were dreaming? That’s lucid dream, you knew you are dreaming when you’re dreaming. That’s a wonderful skill that you can learn. Have you have you practiced lucid dreaming techniques that No they

RICK: haven’t ever practiced? It just comes or it doesn’t, you know? And wouldn’t you

THERESA: want to know? Wouldn’t you want to wake up in that dream land state you can roleplay you can be anywhere you can go up to space, you can fly you can visit country?

RICK: Well, I remember when I read the Carlos Castaneda books, Don Juan told them to try to see your hands and your dreams. And so then, so I thought, Alright, I’m gonna try to do that. And eventually I actually, I’m dreaming. Okay, I want to see my hands. Yep, did it. And then after that, I just didn’t keep you know, messing with it.

THERESA: Oh, I’ve been with me. That’s my next big journey. Lucid Dreaming because I’ve written so many dream dictionaries and encyclopedias now. And that’s where I want to go now. And I’m learning techniques and potentially writing another book about it, actually, because there’s so much interest in it. How do you do it? How do you how do you become lucid in your dream? Because actually, we do need it at the moment because the way our waking life is not great at the moment for a lot of people. So let’s, let’s go and explore and have fun in our dreams. So many of us limit ourselves in our dreams. We have these dreams, either they’re boring, or they’re they’re not not very pleasant or whatever. But actually, you can make your dream life wildly exciting. Oh, yeah, you can role play, you can be or do anyone in anything. And I’m telling you, when people are able to control their dreams become lucid in their dreams, the confidence boost it gives you I’ve had one or two times in my life, maybe three, where I have been aware that I’m dreaming. And I’ve controlled the dream. I can tell you the next morning, I’m just flying literally, you know, I the world. I feel I can do anything. And often it’s before something amazing happened in my waking life. Because what we don’t realize also is our dreams are a commentary on our waking life. Yeah, right. It’s just a continuation. And if you want your dreams to be more exciting, if you want creative ideas for the next novel or your next project to come in your dreams, as many great geniuses have actually had inspiration from their dreams. You know, the plot of Frankenstein, for example, was a dream.

RICK: I read that book, you know, all kinds of other people have had. He dreamed that’s the song yesterday. Yeah, all kinds of stuff.

THERESA: I mean, Chris Christopher Nolan, the director, he’s he’s a very much of a lucid dreamer. But But what I’m saying if you want to have more interesting creative dreams, it starts in your waking life, become more mindful, become more curious in your waking life. A lot of us go through life with our blinkers on in a kind of like routine, if you could actually treat each day as the precious gift is full of wonder and or that’s not always easy, because life can be tough. But if you can become more curious about everything in your waking life, that’s going to have a knock on effect on your dreaming. And there are certain techniques you can do during the day to increase the likelihood of becoming lucid in your dream. One of them is on the hour, or every two hours saying, Am I awake? Am I asleep? Like right now? Maybe I’m dreaming. I’m having this conversation with you, Rick. And but no, I’m awake, that hurts. So keep asking you that because the thing is that what you do in your waking life will somehow carry over in a dream and eventually you’ll be in a dream. And you’ll be asking yourself, Am I awake? Or am I asleep. And then when you know you’re asleep, ah, you can do anything. It’s amazing.

RICK: You know, dreaming is considered both, I think by moderns and by ancients, as one of three are three ordinary states of consciousness, waking, dreaming, and sleeping, right. And in the Vanik tradition, they have, they identify the define a state, which they call forth, which they call Teresa, Teresa means forth. And the idea is that if pure consciousness is is developed, well, if one becomes aware of the field of pure consciousness, which is one on one’s own essential nature, to a sufficient degree, such that it’s no longer overshadowed by anything, it becomes a continuum throughout the other three states waking, dreaming and sleeping. So that’s an interesting consideration. It’s like the movie screen, you know, it’s always there, no matter how the movies change. And so it’s really a, we could say almost a fifth state of consciousness where the fourth state becomes a permanent feature of life throughout the other 324. Seven, yes. Yes, yes. Just will be interesting to throw in there.

THERESA: Fascinating.

RICK: I mean, I have friends who say they haven’t slept in decades. Although they’ve slept, they snore, they sleep, but pure consciousness remains fully illuminated throughout the 24 hour period, including deep sleep.

THERESA: Well, that’s true for all of us. But for some reason, we don’t recall right?

RICK: It’s there just gets blocked, you know, but it can be enlivened to the to the extent that it can no longer be blotted out or overshadowed by the depth of sleep.

THERESA: Okay, okay. But I do think that everybody, when, when they’re asleep, they are their consciousness is going places. And I find it very interesting. Actually, people who write to me and say, I don’t recall my dreams. I don’t remember. I don’t recall. And there’s I think there’s a whole psychology there about what’s going on. About why is it that you don’t want to understand yourself at that deep level?

RICK: Don’t just that people are kind of dulled out, you know, not, there’s not enough clarity to remember the dreams. Well, that’s

THERESA: that’s why so many more people are dreaming right now, because life has got a bit simpler, especially if you’re on furlough, you’re at home. I mean, when life is in full, you know, full swing is too much stress immediately when you wake up that that you know, life. It you your unconscious is too gentle, it can’t compete. So sometimes it’s stress and being way too busy. Or if you’re someone who has a you know, a really, really active waking life, you know, that’s fulfilling you maybe, you know, when you sleep, you just do want to switch off. I mean, there is a psychology behind it, or you’re a very rational and logical person who doesn’t really feel comfortable with talking about what is irrational, who doesn’t really want to suspend disbelief. So there’s all sorts of all sorts of reasons for it. Not having dream recall, and I but I, I love working with people who say they don’t remember their dreams, because usually after a week or two with me working with them, I’ll set in the exercises, they dream.

RICK: You know what happens to me sometimes, not all the time, but is maybe once a year, this happens to me. I’ll suddenly remember a dream that I had 30 or 40 years ago, and I hadn’t remembered it then. But also boom, it comes to mind, I think, oh, yeah, that dream. Isn’t that interesting? And then I go on with my day, but it just comes up.

THERESA: Yeah, what’s the lesson there? What does what’s your dream in mind? What’s your intuitions trying to tell you? Something as I say, it’s your internal therapist and much cheaper than a real one. And we’ve all got this resource and I wish we would all connect with it more and, and fall in love with our dreams. I hope we continue this love affair with our dreams that has happened in 2020. Dreams are huge at the moment. I

RICK: think they’re a blast. I mean, I look forward to going to sleep every night because not only is sleep blissful in its own in its nature. But it’s entertaining. Yeah, I wake up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom or something. And I’ll just chuckle about what I’ve been dreaming. And then oh, it’s

THERESA: because there’s no limits. In dreams, you can actually that, you know, in waking life, we have restraints, we have norms or society or whatever. But in dreams, there are no limits. You know, other people are frightened about that. But it wasn’t the Dalai Lama, correct me if I’m wrong, who said that the best meditation is sleep? I’m sure you said that. And what happens when you sleep? Your dream? So, you know, that

RICK: somehow that triggered the Hamlet’s soliloquy there? Or, you know, To be or not to be that is the question whether it is nobler. And then to sleep to dream. There’s the rub, what dreams may come to? Yeah.

THERESA: Yeah, dreams can feel our waking life. They can they, as I say, they can help you understand yourself better, you can roleplay scenarios. So, you know, you can actually face the worst case scenario, in your sleep. For example, you know, the things many of us fear like being attacked or dying or, or being lost or unprepared. You know, the classic thing of being late for exam, and what your dreaming mind does, it takes you to that worst place scenario. And there’s this like, you know, in the self help movement, you’ve got to imagine the worst case most of us won’t allow us to imagine that, especially if you’re perfectionist or successful person, you won’t allow yourself to be that unprepared or to walk around nude in your way, your dreamy mind takes you there. So the worst thing has possibly happened. You have exposed yourself in public, you have forgotten your lines on stage, you have messed every single thing up. And it’s okay, because you still woken up the next morning, it’s a memory, it’s gone. It’s in the past, you’ve been there, you’ve done that. You’ve got it out of your system.

RICK: You know, another one that I had for years that a lot of people say they have is you’re in high school or something. And in the dream and you suddenly realize there’s some class that you were supposed to have been tending, and you totally forgotten about it. Now it’s the end of the year, and you’ve forgotten that now you’re going to flunk this class, because you forgot to go to it. Did you ever have that one? Oh, that was school

THERESA: themed dreams are among the top five most common actually, there’s, you know, certain. And the reason is in school, it’s when we are forming. It’s such a formative time in our life like it although that it’s when we meet people or get influences that that you know, create our personality. It’s the school that forms are in most of our lives actually spent working out issues that we had at school or in our childhood, trying to really understand what we think or not what others do. So that’s why we have school, school themed dreams and being late for an exam shows testing situations and not feeling you’re up to it. A lot of people suffer from imposter syndrome, or whatever and think am I up for it and your dreamy mind is just expressing all this for you. So you cathartically can get it out of your system.

RICK: Another one I’ve had a lot from over the years is I’m swimming underwater. That’s nice, but I can breathe. And I think to myself, Wow, I’m underwater, but I can breathe. Isn’t that interesting?

THERESA: That’s a beautiful dream. Water of course is a universal symbol of emotion. And a lot of people actually they’re underwater but they’re drowning. The fact that you can breathe suggests that your emotions you got you are emotional management is an important part of life. You are managing your okay, you’re not being submerged by emotions, you are navigating them. I’d be more worried about that dream if you were drowning and couldn’t breathe. That’s a beautiful dream showing the sea of emotions you’re swimming through your own emotions and other people’s and you’re understanding it you’re being a natural psychologist. That’s what that dream would express to me.

RICK: For some reason I’m into telling you all my dreams now because this is the time to do everybody

THERESA: does this great I’ve been on I’ve done so much radio and TV recently and and I’m actually started a podcast with a sky presenter called Alex Morgan actually I talk about that and we’ve got some over here in the UK it’s not us celebrities but UK celebrities who are coming on and it’s a bit like an interview but then they share a dream and then they will me on as the dream catcher and I usually get that it gets really deep. You know really deep we had a politician or you know talking about Being in an opera and not understanding the words, you know what that’s so deep. And you can, you can actually because people will reveal because thing is we’re celebrities they have this mask on. But then they think it’s okay to share a funny dream about being nude or their ex ex chasing them. You can go right in with a psychology there. But you can do it in a in a really safe way. And it’s doing really well actually, it’s called in your dreams, where it’s kind of an interview, but we go deep with a dream. And I think what a wonderful development. If this, this would never have happened 510 15 years ago, especially here in the UK, which does tend to be quite cynical. And here we are, in mainstream, talking about dreams. And taking them seriously. I mean, I just feel my my work is done. I’m so pleased, because what we’re doing there is spirituality is understanding ourselves from the inside out.

RICK: Yeah, here’s one this another one this kind of is here’s one of the worst of egotism comes into the dream, I’ll have a dream where I’m levitating or flying or something like that. And I think that’s cool. But at the same time, I think, oh, is anybody watching they can go? Is anybody seeing that I can do this.

THERESA: Because every me dreams are a hall of mirrors. Most of them. Most of them are a hall of mirrors. You’re dreaming yourself. And, you know, levitating, you don’t take yourself too seriously. You’re rising above the situation. And also I you know, you’ve done so many of these amazing interviews. By the way, I’m so glad. And I’m actually really grateful to Tim free. Yes, I was. I say that.

RICK: That’s where I first discovered he was listening to his podcast, and I listen to it regularly.

THERESA: Oh, he’s great. So thank Tim for for connecting me and I absolutely I’m going to recommend it everywhere. Now. This podcast, but you’ve interviewed so many people, that in a way, you must get a sense. Now. I know what this person is going to say before they do it before they do. But do you feel that you’re at that point now? I mean, what is it? 600? Wow, yeah, like a sponge, you’re taking it all on board. And there’s a point now and you think, is there anything new that I’m going to hear? And I think that’s sort of that trains about?

RICK: Well, I never get bored, everything seems new and fresh. And each new guest is like opening a Christmas present or something and you don’t know what you’re gonna get. And I really enjoy, you know, each week, preparing for the guest for a week and listening to their stuff and reading their books. And it’s, it’s, it’s, you know, certainly they’re repeating themes. And we actually have a categorical index on that gap where we cluster people into categories, so you can see all that. Oh, I don’t know. A category for you. But um, I don’t know, I think it’s, it’s, I love it. It’s kind of like everything in my life led up to doing this.

THERESA: It’s, it’s the best job in the world. Somebody else said

RICK: that to me just the other day. He was a brain surgeon in Dubai or someplace said, Well, you got the best job in the world.

THERESA: It’s fascinating, isn’t it? Because you never know what you’re going to stumble across. Yeah. You know, all these people. And it’s a wonderful platform. And thank you to take this opportunity to thank you as well. We welcome guests, it makes accessible, accessible, and gathers together names that you maybe wouldn’t find out otherwise,

RICK: that’s part of our mission actually, is not just to interview well known people but to interview people like who are just leading ordinary lives, but I’ve had some significant spiritual awakening. And that was part of the initial motivation for starting this is that I was talking to friends around town and some of them were having spiritual awakenings. And then other friends didn’t believe it because they just seem like ordinary people. And so you know, how could they have a spiritual awakening, they’re not floating two feet off the ground. So I just wanted to kind of showcase such people so people would realize that it’s possible for me to if it can happen to Joe Schmo over here I can, I can do it.

THERESA: I’m sorry, I just I have this habit of talking too much.

RICK: I mean, flashing the sign to me during interviews, usually every every time and you’re talking too much

THERESA: is the Irene but what was I gonna say if maybe forget now, okay. Yes. What I loved about this, I was so excited to be asked is that you put the emphasis on ordinary because I have been invited on to certain podcasts or whatever. And I’ve actually sometimes declined because they build the person, this extraordinary awakened soul. And I can’t go there. Maybe I do suffer from imposter syndrome. I can consider myself very ordinary, I have my moments of spiritual awakening and clarity like everybody else. But I consider myself very ordinary. I consider myself just simply lucky that I’ve been in the right place and the right time and opportunities have come my way. And I’m very curious about the spiritual journey because I was born into it. But I don’t like being presented on a platform as some kind of like, Oh, she’s got angels jumping out of her shoulders or whatever. I can’t, I can’t do that. I don’t I don’t bless my readers. I know I have seen people in this movement blessing people. And this is, as I say, at the beginning where I am right now is I’m getting concerned about all that because especially online now we have so many light workers, courses. I have people writing to me, I’ve just done a certified Angel course and certified it, you know, is there I know what certification the certification I’m into and that’s why I collaborate with ions is scientific endorsement and certainly mediumship I’ve done a lot study of mediumship people who know because it was what I was born into a family of spiritualist and spiritualist believe you can communicate to the other side. And I can’t do it myself. I have I connect with departed loved ones in dreams, and through my feelings in my heart, but I wouldn’t say I see dead people. In the sense most people think of mediums like the Whoopi Goldberg kind of representation for ghosts.

RICK: So I’ve studied the guy who wrote this got the Oscar for the screenplay for that movie. What’s his name? Bruce? Bruce, Joel Rubin. Oh, gosh, yeah, he’s a, he’s a real spiritual guy, we stay in touch, he sends out a nice little Christmas email every year and with his family news, and we always chat a bit. Anyway, I’m subtracting you. Sorry.

THERESA: Sorry. No, that all that is so interesting. But basically, with mediumship, as I say, because a lot of my books are about afterlife experiences or encounters. Up until a few years ago, I would avoid mention of mediums because I think the opportunity for fraud is too strong. However, I realized that so many people do get comfort from visiting medium. So I explored that scientifically as well. And went around the country actually to try and find an HONEST medium, you know, someone who was doing it from their heart, not their ego in their pockets. And there are people who do do that they’re rare, but they are. And I’ve came across the wind bridge Institute. I don’t know if Yeah, yeah, she wrote the foreword to the book, I wrote about my search to try and find an HONEST medium. And I love what she’s doing and having a scientific testing, you know, using all the scientific protocols. And on her website, she lists mediums who have been tested and passed that, you know, and have a code of ethics don’t charge, you know, you know, in arm and a leg, right? Yeah. I think for a medium ship or a psychic, you know, you should pay no more than you do for a good haircut. No, you shouldn’t. And if there’s any celebrity hype around it, steer clear because this is about creating a spiritual superstar. Not not the real deal, in my humble opinion. And as I always say, my opinion could be wrong. It’s a difference between opinion and fact. But that was an interesting voyage that I went on looking at mediumship. And it was it was some, you know, I do think there are some honest mediums out there, people who genuinely seem to connect with something, what’s going on, whether it’s telepathy, but even that’s worth studying, isn’t it? That’s fascinating that someone can actually read someone else’s thoughts.

RICK: I just want to comment on a couple of things you said, firstly, for some reason, when I hear the word Lightworker, it makes me feel mildly uncomfortable. There’s something something pretentious about it or holier than thou, you know, and, oh, I’m a lightworker. And what that makes you like chopped liver or something like that?

THERESA: You know, what I found? I think that they’re more Lightworkers now than they’re actually people seeking that light. Because so many of them and it’s not enough to just be spiritually awakened. You got to be a light worker and you heal and you have a usually there’s a certified course and a workshop, you know, in pre COVID times, and it’s quite frankly, ridiculous. A lot of it and almost, you know, funny if vulnerable people were not being exploited. And actually recent, my latest episode of my podcast I talked to, I think I emailed you about this, Rick, Christopher Johnson, who was in the Netflix documentary, holy hell.

RICK: And I emailed you back about this association for spiritual integrity that I got to help

THERESA: me. I’m so glad because it was after I interviewed him, I had an hour long interview and I the interview is going up around now. In my introduction, I actually mentioned you and what synchronicity, because I didn’t know about that organization. So I list the website and I’ll put it in the show. Oh no. So people who are concerned and it was a riveting interview he talked about, you know, he was 18 year olds and how he got sucked into this cult, you know, and what was going on the dynamic between this guru. It’s actually if you ever watched her, you know? Oh, Netflix you say that claim? I’ve heard of it. It’s about the Buddhafield cult.

RICK: Oh, yeah. So I heard of it.

THERESA: Yes, it’s very

RICK: feel did a whole article about it.

THERESA: Absolutely fascinating. A Will Allen film, I do highly recommend it. Because it’s a warning. Yeah, of how easy it is to get your whole life given over to to a cult. And Christopher Johnson plays a leading part in that he was one of the Guru’s favorites. And he talks about how he was sucked into it, and how he escaped. And I’m, I’m blessed. For that interview, it was actually again, through someone who Tim freak knows Richard Cox, who kindly connected me because he was hearing me talking on my podcast about, look, why are you following all these people? Have you checked your credentials? I was talking a lot about that. And so I got this interview. And, you know, it’s it’s really, really helpful interview, I would love to put him in touch with you. He has a holy hell Facebook page that for people who have been sucked into cults, or whatever, and it’s so relevant right now, because the, you know, the theme of being fed lies or untruths, has gone mainstream. Media?

RICK: Yeah, let’s, let’s dwell on this topic, just for a few more minutes, because it’s important, and then we’ll switch over to angels. But I think that, you know, discernment, discrimination, and ethics are critical components on the spiritual path. And if one is deficient in any of those, you can be meditating for decades, and just go way off the rails, and, you know, get yourself totally stuck, and deluded. So it’s, you can’t just sort of do a spiritual practice, or this or that, and, or follow a teacher and relax in all those important areas, and expect to just cruise along. They’re all

THERESA: but it’s so it’s so easy to get caught up in it. Because I know when I started, and I got my first Sunday Times, top 10. This was all nearly 20 years ago, I suddenly get deluged with mail of people who, like you’ve changed my life, you know, whatever. It’s very, I’m going to be honest, it’s intoxicating.

RICK: I get that. People tell me that, you know, they’re contemplating suicide, and then they listen to bad GAAP. And, you know,

THERESA: that’s wonderful. And I’m sure that is the case. But it’s like, you know, because then you are in a position of responsibility. Because you can either take it to the end, I can see why people would get love that and take it further. Because then when the media started to come in the media plays a part as well. My first feature in a newspaper, it was a lovely feature. And of course, you have no control on how the journalists do it. But when it came out, it was a national newspaper, the world’s greatest psychic. That’s what they call me. Yeah, yeah. No, I’m not. But I’d written about astrology, where I’d given psychological profiles for each day of the year based on simple astrology or whatever. And a lot of people were saying the predictions I’d made were very accurate. But I know that I’m not psychic, I was just using common sense, popular psychology, you know, and putting in a bit of, you know, excitement with it. But at that point, I had a choice. I could have gone that path, the celebrity kind of like, psychic, you know, maybe I have the odd intuitive hit, maybe I am intuitive, I think we all are, but it’s a choice you have to make. So ever since then, I’ve said I’m an ordinary person, who, like everybody else has extraordinary experiences from time to time. And when I do I celebrate those, and I write about them, and I want to hear about them, but I can understand how it happens. And especially as I’m a serial writer, and I’ve worked with so many publishers, publishers a business, you know, if they’re going to publish a psychic or healer or medium, they want that psychic and healer medium out there with the tour and the, you know, they want it’s a business. So it’s it’s very difficult when when, you know, and to go back to when you see a lot this term Lightworkers somebody says they’ve had a vision of an angel or somebody says they can see auras or had a near death experience. You know, if you are you are then automatically people want to worship and follow and there’s something in human nature that wants that. And that concerns Yeah,

RICK: well you remember what Jesus said He said, you know, whatsoever All these things, I do these miraculous things, you shall do even greater things. I think he was trying to tell people that, you know, there’s nothing really special about me that you don’t potentially have, as well. And you know, you need to, you need to develop it. And

THERESA: apps. Absolutely, I believe we all got it in us. But it’s, it’s where you choose to put your focus. And also, when you do focus on it, not to get obsessed with it, and not to be results driven. Yeah. And to expect the unexpected when you do start developing your spirituality and not saying that spirituality is going to reveal itself in a very set fixed way, you know, like in the movies or whatever, you know how you think, or suddenly you’re going to wake up and you see an angel or sudden you’re going to wake up and you have a blinding premonition that saves your life. That’s not how it works. It’s it, it’s much more subtle than that.

RICK: And if you’re a teacher, then it’s not only for the sake of your students, that you have to sort of toe this ethical line and maintain humility, and so on. Because, you know, you can harm people if you don’t, but it’s also for your own sake, because the bigger they are, the harder they fall, you know, and if if it goes to your head, you’re going to crash and burn eventually.

THERESA: That is it. As I said, this is this need within people, your right to want to follow and to be told what to do. And it is intoxicating, if you’re in a position of influence, to fall into that and give people what they want, which is certainty. Like if somebody, somebody is grieving, this is what you need to do, if you fear death, here’s here’s what to think. It’s very intoxicating to fall into that. But as I’ve said many times to people, I’m sure if there is an afterlife, when you go to the other side, you won’t be asked how much you copied or followed anyone else. You’ll be asked how how, how much was Teresa Teresa? Not much. How did Teresa be inspired by the works of Mother Teresa or Gandhi or all sorts of, you know, iconic spiritual leaders? How true were you to who you are? You know, that’s that’s what I believe is interesting

RICK: that some of my most popular interviews have been channelers and healers. Oh, yes, everybody, because they’re doing it for you. You know, I mean, I don’t have to do anything. I’m going to get this wisdom from this person, I’m going to get healed by this person, and so on.

THERESA: Yes, exactly. It’s much easier to see someone who and worship someone like that. And also, it’s sensational. It’s exciting. You know, this person seen heaven. This person knows what deaths like this person can talk to. Arcane. I mean, there’s a whole, that’s what I talk about in my angel thing to go on about that. There’s apparently according to Angel experts, there’s this whole hierarchy. I mean, it seems to be very much like they’ve organized the other side like LinkedIn. It’s like, you know, it seems like there’s this whole hierarchy of Ascended Masters, and all these things that happen on the other side. And I think this is nice.

RICK: Well, let’s switch to the angel talk here. Because we spent an hour talking about a lot of stuff and but let’s dedicate the rest of this interview mostly to talking about angels. So angels, you just alluded to somehow live on the other side, or they live in some dimension that is not our ordinary earthly perception. Let me give a quick definition of what I think angels are and you tell me how that jives with what you understand and then please elaborate to great extent, but I’m my sense, intuitive and also just intellectual from everything I’ve studied is that you know, there are many dimensions to the universe. And we all beings have a certain range of perception operate within a certain range. And human beings have the capability to well, ordinarily they operate within a fairly narrow band, but they have the capability to expand, expand their range of perception to incorporate subtler realms, in which forms of life resides subtle, subtle beings, angels, and all kinds of others, a whole menagerie of different types of beings that are outlined in various traditional scriptures. And and there is a hierarchy perhaps in the sense that some of them are much have much greater power and are a higher revolute level of evolution have much greater, broader sphere of influence. And some of them might be you know, very specific and localized either attending to certain individual people or plants or trees or whatever they’re so that might be little angel, Devas or whatever then great big galactic in Gods or devas and human beings aren’t. It wouldn’t be practical for ordinary human life to be aware of this stuff all the time, but some people like David Spangler and others are born to the natural capacity to experience this stuff, and others it may develop later. Iran in life. And it’s what? I’ll say one more thing and then shut up. But one thing that’s fascinating here is that, you know, imagine if extraterrestrials landed on the White House lawn, or maybe the courtyard of Buckingham Palace, it would be a huge news story, wow, this this other kinds of life that we never even realized existed. And here they are, we see them. So it’s a bit ironic that we’re completely surrounded by forms of life that we don’t even imagine, exist, and yet do. And they may or may not be aware of us, many of them are, I think, and they’re all among us. And yet, we’re most of us are completely oblivious to that fact. And that’s fascinating. All right, I’ve said enough, you go ahead.

THERESA: I love your I love your interpretation about angels. And for me, whatever people think about angels is right for them. For me, personally, I’ve come to the belief that I don’t know, these unseen realms, I’m sure they exist, but I have no personal proof. I’m sure there are people who say they can travel to these realms, but that’s their experience that’s

RICK: right here, you don’t have to travel to them. All those subtle dimensions are right here and can be perceived in the midst of riding on a bus or something.

THERESA: Absolutely, that’s what I say the angel around there are within. And that’s my expansive interpretation about angels. And what I love about angels is that they exist in every religion, even Buddhism, we have kind of winged figures, but they can also exist outside of religion, nobody went to war about angels. They are, you know, totally universal. And they’re a wonderful way to draw people into spirituality, you can believe in angels without being religious. I love that aspect. But increasingly, from all the research I’ve done, and I have been writing, I’ve written probably about 15 Angel books. Now, this will be my 1600 books. I have I told you, I’m always What did you call me, you call me

RICK: the serial scripters something. You must have really good time management skills to write all these books.

THERESA: i It’s my passion in life. It’s what I love to do. But a lot of these books are a collection of other people’s stories, people who write to me ordinary people who’ve had angelic encounters. And then I collate them, I edit them. And I talk about them, bringing in some of my academic insight. As I said, I was blessed to have, you know, study at Cambridge to study religion and all that. So I kind of bring all that into it. But now I’m bringing in the science but my where I am at right now I think angels are within as you say, they’re the mysterious, the unexplained the intuition and basically anything that makes you feel sublime, that makes you kind that makes you more compassionate, that makes you more loving. This is where I have come to term angels.

RICK: Okay, let’s, let’s pick that apart a little bit. So angels are within please define within. And then the second part is anything that makes you kinder and this and that, well, you can get kind or just watching a good movie about kind people or something or reading a biography of Mother Teresa.

THERESA: exactly everything that is a, an angel sign your angels sign the biography of Mother Teresa,

RICK: with angels have anything to do with that. It’s just an uplifting book.

THERESA: I know the angels have inspired it, anything. I don’t know. But that’s what I’ve come to believe. I believe that angels exist within us. And they are the force the force for goodness and compassion in the world. And at the end of the day, that force for goodness, love and compassion is all that truly matters. It what’s gives us deeper meaning. It’s what people on their deathbed. I’ve had the privilege to sit with people when they’re dying. When I worked in a hospice, they talk of love, they talk about kindness, they talk about their angels. That’s, that’s the way that I feel angels express themselves. I’m not interested in Angel ology, or giving Angel very human terms and names or saying that I’ve been just because I’ve had a dream. And in that dream, I went to a realm and I saw all these Angel beings reading books, that that is real. I don’t know. All I know is that at the end of the day, what gives our life deeper meaning is this spiritual understanding this connection to the force within us. And that’s, that’s where it’s got very, very simple with me, actually, my life really, it’s not so simple. I’ve realized that all these years I’ve overcomplicated it with all this terminology with all these groups with all these systems, with all these people have this set way of doing it very, very simple. I think spirituality can be summed up with two words. Be kind. That’s great. That’s it. Let’s just end the conversation. That’s it. Just be kind because through doing that we make the world Better Place, we also make ourselves feel better. And there’s scientific research, psychological research to show that kindness is this force. You know, kindness can act at kindness can make you lead a beautiful life.

RICK: Yeah, it’s very important. And for so many reasons. Because not only is like, like I said earlier about teachers, it’s kind of kindness is important, not only for the people you influence, but because there’s an immediate feedback loop. And if you are unkind, you Corson and degrade and undermine your own.

THERESA: So, but the most starting point for that is kindness to the self, that’s got to be the most people understand being kind to others. And I’ve met so many spiritual people who are endlessly kind for other people helping giving, giving, giving, but still unhappy. And of course, it’s that be kind as a provider, be kind to yourself and others. You know, that’s the most important thing. And I think it is the hardest thing for people to learn, a lot of my books actually have become very simple with a journey, the return to love, the return to being for yourself, what you’re looking for in others, because we’re seeking in others in relationships and career in spiritual teachings, feeling good about ourselves. But we’ve got to do that for ourselves. That’s the starting point, self love, every religious system encourages self care, but none of them really tell us how to do it. And I think people, especially if you’ve had a traumatic childhood, as a lot of people drawn to spirituality are because they you know, the people who should care for them didn’t. So they seek a deeper meaning and understanding why you need to learn the basics of self love that return to love. It’s the hardest thing to do. It really is it takes a lifetime. But once you get to that point, not narcissism, I’m not talking about that there’s so much talk about narcissism, that’s a completely different category, but just nurturing yourself, body, mind and soul. That’s the starting point. Because when you do that, I believe you naturally attract people into your life who treat you the way you treat yourself. Yeah.

RICK: Yeah, I mean, the way I would interpret self love, I had a big epiphany when I was 18. And I had been, you know, taking full advantage of everything the late 60s had to offer. And I kind of realized

THERESA: experience is important to I mean, we need to encounter our shadow. And, you know, we learned

RICK: through that we do have gotten pretty messed up. But I had this realization that if I continue on, like this, it’s, it’s, I’m gonna really damage this body, this nervous system, and this is my vehicle for living life. So I really better clean up my act. And then I changed a lot of things, stop taking drugs, learn to meditate and everything. But that, I guess, that you could think of that as self love taking care of this precious gift of human nervous system, not, you know, providing it with adequate sleep and nutrition and, you know, things that make it more healthy, make it function better, like you would take care of an expensive automobile that you want to kind of keep in

THERESA: Absolutely, absolutely. People take better care of their cars than themselves. But it’s a switch that’s got to go on in what triggers that because until someone’s ready to make that decision to take care of themselves, nothing other people say or do is going to help her. It has to be and that’s what I feel is the divine within some switch has to go on that you actually get it. And you know, it is heartbreaking when you tell people will to do the right thing or to take care of themselves, but they’re not there. Yes, it seems that their soul has to go through another journey, another tough love experience. And it’s typically during times of crisis, bereavement loss, grief, they are catalysts for this while I’m reached rock bottom now. So I’ve got to do something different than what I’ve done before. And that’s which is a personal one, it can’t really be facilitated by someone else. That’s why we’re talking about Lightworkers and gurus. That’s all great. But unless you’re ready to take that step yourself, make that decision yourself take responsibility for yourself. It’s not going to help. Yeah.

RICK: I’m going to switch back to what we were talking about a minute ago, you were saying that angels are kind of within and I was reminded of Lincoln’s phrase, the the better angels of our nature, which I believe he said during his inaugural address. And so you’re kind of defining angels there as like, positive attributes within our personality. But I just want to suggest and perhaps you also believe this, that angels also exist outside of us. For instance, one time, one time I gave a, I did a panel discussion of a bunch of people who say they had subtle perception or celestial pressure. perception. And people were talking about the different experiences of subtle beings and all that they have. And, you know, one of the people didn’t have much to say. And afterwards I asked why? And she said, Well, I was they were in my face, they were saying, you realize you can’t talk about this. And okay, I won’t. So and that person also told me that she sees angels or something, don’t even know what they are really, but presumably guardian angels around people all the time, just routinely, as you and I would see people in the shopping mall, they just kind of cluster around and seem to be attending to people in some way.

THERESA: Absolutely. Rick, there are people who say that they can see that. And I say, good for them, if it makes you happy, and it harms no one. However, the great majority of people, myself included me, don’t say, I’ve had a few glimpses. But where does that leave us feeling like failure? I mean, spiritual failures, because, obviously, if this person says they can see all these beings, why can’t we? Well, and does that mean that we need to learn then what they do or whatever, and it sets up a cycle of dependency of that, that, you know, these people are, you know, they’re on a higher spiritual level. And I’m very much about, you know, equality, in spirituality. And I don’t actually think it’s necessary because I can see angels in a grain of sand, in the love of my pet, in the laughter of my children, or in a sunset or a sunrise. That’s how I see them with my inner eyes when I close my eyes. And I think of beautiful things. And I think that’s much more of a powerful message than to go out there and say to people, well, there are these beings, you can’t see them. But I can,

RICK: yeah, no, I’m not coming from that angle.

THERESA: Because I’ve been to course, after course of spiritual honestly, I’m in my teens, I was such an early spiritual seekers. And I really thought I went to the College of psychic studies, I went, I mean, I literally was a junkie for courses I was shopping for, for heaven, as it were. And every and I actually found myself because I was in these these groups, and they can be very smug spiritual retreats, or whatever, I’m going to say that very serious as well, humor is often lacking, but it was certainly well done. I was doing it. And all these people were saying, Well, I had this vision and whatever. And I was thinking, I’ve seen, you know, and I felt something was wrong with me. And then I’d go to the guru, and they say, Well, when you’re ready, they’re appear. And that’s great. But I just feel that there are a lot of people like me, who maybe have been on psychic development courses have seen absolutely nothing. But feel they ought to made it up. I don’t know.

RICK: I think it’s good not to compare oneself with others. I mean, you know, I don’t feel bad that I can’t.

THERESA: I mean, when you’re young,

RICK: you can do more, but, you know, much

THERESA: older now. So I realized the only person I should compare myself as the person with I was yesterday. And the only person I should aspire to be as the better person I can be tomorrow. But back then it was it was very impressionable. And I began to think, you know, why are we all doing all these courses and spending hours meditating? I mean, who’s got time for that? Anyway? Shouldn’t life be lived, you know, spending? And I typically find it no disrespect, right. But it’s often men who meditate for hours. Yeah. And I just think, well, I know, but, you know,

RICK: I do stuff the rest of the time. But, you know, a couple times a day, I know,

THERESA: the two hours to be able to switch off and especially if you you are busy, and you’ve got dependents or whatever, or whatever, you know, to just take two hours out to go. And I you know, I’ve seen that happen a lot, you know, in couples at the man, where’s he gone? Oh, he’s meditating and she’s rushing around doing 101 things.

RICK: I think I really appreciate you getting me out of the room for an hour.

THERESA: Though, that’s pretty good. But if meditations for you, as I say, I think if everybody has their own unique

RICK: saying, it seems like it’s mostly men who like to meditate, and I don’t know if that’s true, but you know, obviously not gonna

THERESA: change. I

RICK: mean, doesn’t resent the fact that I’m not like bugging her for 24/7. Yeah, she says, You meditate and I vegetate.

THERESA: But anyway, I’m not criticizing that at all. If it’s post somebody past and it makes them feel

RICK: good. It makes you know, and it continues to enhance it.

THERESA: Yes, but I just think, you know, I would never recommend for example, in my books, go and meditate for two hours every day or whatever, because it’s simply not practical.

RICK: I mean, it’s just what I do. Anyway, Thinking about comparing oneself with others. I mean, you know, I can’t play basketball like some famous star, I can’t write like you do, or, you know, all kinds of things that I don’t do, but I do what I do. And you know, if the world we need, you know, variety is the spice of life, and there are 8 billion of us, and we’re each unique, and everybody has a contribution to make. So, you know, we have to, it’s called Dharma in the you probably aware of this word that you know, that course of action which for you is most appropriate, and, and through which you can be most effective.

THERESA: Absolutely, that’s where I’ve come to at the moment. Yes, that’s where I’m to at the moment, and whatever works for you, as long as it harms no one. And it makes you feel good about yourself. Absolutely. It’s wonderful. But to return to the angels, as I said, I have a very expansive interpretation of angels now. And it does tend to be connecting to your better angels, which I think is what the world needs at the moment, the more of us activate, you know, it’s in our DNA, the, you know, being kind, having empathy is actually in our DNA cultures that take care of each other societies that take care of each other tend to survive. So it’s necessary for evolution. On the I think, increasingly in modern times, the empathy gene has switched off, for whatever reason. And switching that back on again, for me is igniting the aspiring Angel within you. And, you know, bringing, and if you believe in unseen realms, bringing the angels closer to Earth, because it’s like a magnet, empathy, compassion, love, if there are unseen beings out there, that draws them closer to you. That’s how they speak to you. Yeah.

RICK: There’s a saying in Sanskrit, which is the means collect around subtler and subtler means purity. And by means, it just means that there are impulses of intelligence, we can call them angels, which kind of are involved in the way things happened in the world, they orchestrate things. And, you know, if you are more like them, then they are able to align with you more, they’re able to resonate with you more and be of greater assistance in the fulfillment of your desires, because your desires are more in tune with sort of divine intentions. Absolutely, absolutely. Beautiful. I love that. I love that. Um, so we’re, you know, they, they’re, we’re not alone. They they do exist within us. But they also, if we limit our

THERESA: think that what’s within us is also without something I’ve got to you know, that bliss is when there’s that beautiful merging between the force, spiritual force within us with with what is outside us, that it’s all one, that there’s a sense of interconnection, because when I have spoken to people who’ve had peak experiences, or interviewed them for my books, or whatever, they talk about this interconnection, and also near death experiences, people would say that they’ve died and gone to heaven. I spoke to Eben Alexander about is this this blissful? Understanding that it’s all the same? And that’s such a mind blowing mind opening concept that is hard to explain in human terms. But for me, what’s within and what’s without, is one.

RICK: Yeah, no, you’re absolutely right. And great sages like Ramana Maharshi. And others have described this beautifully, that they, they’re not just philosophizing about it, they’re it’s their living experience. They are the oneness, they are Brahman, they are the totality. And you know, then there’s this little human body, I was just hearing a story last night from Swami I take classes from named Swami sobre P Ananda and, and someone was saying, to Ramakrishna, who, you know, lived back in the 1800s. Mostly, you know, who and who had gone through a number of difficulties in his life people giving him a hard time and various help things and, and someone was saying, why is it that such a, you know, soul as you should have to suffer all these outrages? You know, it’s really not right. And he said, he said, you know, if you forget the exact wording, but if you think this little thing here is me, you know, you’re really not seeing the full picture. And he said the same thing when he was dying of cancer. People say, Oh, you’re suffering and all that said, no, no, no, it’s just I am the universe. How could I suffer? I am the vastness that you’re just kind of identifying with this little, you know, entity, this little physical form, but that’s really not what I am.

THERESA: That’s a huge, expansive way to

RICK: experience Yeah, I mean, he wasn’t just yeah, that was amazing.

THERESA: That’s incredible. I mean, why bad things happen to wonderful, good people. eternal question, isn’t it? And I’ve just come to the point now when, you know, I get so much mail about this just to say, just keep asking why never stop asking why? Because in the asking of why you activate your compassion and your empathy, because imagine we imagine a world where we knew why everything happened. Like, we know why a Woman screams in pain when she has a baby. We aren’t that concerned, are we? We just think, okay, that you know, just imagine a world where we knew the reason forced your friend having cancer or, or someone a child dying, imagine if we knew we would not be kind or compassionate, we’d be nonchalant. And that’s not a world that I think I would want to live in. So I’ve come to that point, because you know, these are questions. I’ve been asked since the beginning of time, who is trees a chance to be able to answer them? You know, because I do get asked them a lot. And trying to come up with an answer. For these, I’m sure you get asked them as well. You know, big, big questions like that, like, what is life? Why are we here? Why do bad things happen to good people? There’s a part of me that would just love to have a great answer. But I just say, that’s just keep asking these questions, because the more we ask questions, the more we grow. Because I think when you know, something, when something is known and certain sorted, it’s almost like stagnant, isn’t it? Yeah, the crust stops

RICK: if you’re especially if you’re adamant about it, or if you’re insistent that it’s got to be this way, then that that’s a problem. But, um,

THERESA: but are we living in a world now where it’s so much like that where it’s black and white, where people are just like, it’s my way or the highway? That’s the world way the world’s come? I I am. I know the answers. This is what’s happening. This is, you know, we’ve lost this, you know, ability to be open minded about other opinions that are different from our own. Yeah. And that’s sad. That is really sad. So, you know, yes, we’re all dreaming more, and we’re awakening. But the sad part as well, as I’ve seen, as I’m sure you have, in recent years, this closed mindedness that’s happening as well, where people have their fixed ideology. And that’s it. That’s the answer.

RICK: Yeah, there’s so many things going on. I mean, I think there’s an increased polarity taking place in the world and, and many people’s psychologies and this thing about knowing things for certain, I mean, we, you know, you and I believe certain things that we’ve been discussing today, and we believe there’s an afterlife, for instance, but you know, we’re not going to kill, I could be wrong.

THERESA: I could be wrong about everything, I have an opinion. And I could be wrong about everything I’ve said. And I’ll find out on the other side, and that’s

RICK: one of the principles of the scientific method. Hypotheses should be falsifiable in order to be a valid hypothesis.

THERESA: Not working with scientists, because I’ve often asked them, you know, especially ones like Dr. Bayshore, the ions crowd, you know, Dean, Are you a believer? And they say to me, that’s irrelevant. They say to me, that’s irrelevant. The science matters. I’m a I’m a scientist first and a believer or skeptic second, and I loved I like that, that development,

RICK: Oprah was interviewing that Kurt Tolley, and she did this, I thought

THERESA: you gonna say Harry and Megan,

RICK: coming up. But she, she did this thing where she started little sentences and had him finished them. Right. And so one of the sentences was, I believe, and then he said, nothing in particular.

THERESA: You know, I’m starting to say, I don’t know, oh, and also I changed but I do change my mind, you know, that opinions I had 1020 years ago, of course, I’m a different person. Now. I’ve evolved, I’ve learned, I changed my mind. And people find that very difficult. You know, when I started out, you know, I was collecting all these Angel stories. Angels are real, you know, they’re these beings with wings and whatever. It’s all it does evolve and change. And I think, you know, that that’s something that people who follow you as we have in this world, you know, if you become a public figure, I struggle with that. I say, well, actually, that’s wrong. This is what I think now and that’s okay. It’s okay to change your mind. But changing your mind seems to be considered, you know, a crime these days.

RICK: Yeah, I was thinking of another Lincoln quote here. Someone accused him of changing his mind or something like that about something and he just he spun it around and said, you know, that’s a good thing. But I can change

THERESA: is a good thing. It is a good thing to be to be open minded, because that’s how the human race evolves. Surely, you know, if we all know all the answers, we don’t know all of us are guessing here.

RICK: And it doesn’t mean that we don’t favor certain bodies of knowledge that we accumulate. I mean, you know, we’re pretty darn sure the Earth is not flat, although there are people who think it is.

THERESA: And that documentary The Earth. I mean, I

RICK: was there. Where’s that on Netflix? Also? I got to see that

THERESA: way too much time on Netflix. That’s what you’ve identified on this. But yeah, yeah.

RICK: Yeah. And, you know, we know that people landed on the moon, but there are people who think we didn’t, but you know, so it’s not like, we have to be total wishy washy, you know, people who don’t favor one perspective over another, but you just can’t take it to the point of absolute, you know, adamancy.

THERESA: No, well, we there are only two things we know we’re going to be born with those. And taxes. But, you know, we do know those two things. That’s all we really know everything else. Why are we here? Why are we? Why are we even alive?

RICK: We know we’re conscious, or we know that consciousness somehow. So we

THERESA: have a very realistic dream

RICK: could be but then we’re conscious in that dream.

THERESA: There’s there what’s happening, where do we go? You know what everything in this life is a mystery. And if you have that attitude, I think that’s wonderfully exciting way to live. It’s a expert, I have come to expect the unexpected all the time.

RICK: Yeah, I could make a joke now and ask you to talk about something really crazy that you have no idea what because that would be unexpected. But um, anyway, I won’t do that. So let’s see what

THERESA: you’d like to know about how are you making no. wish them well, I’d be doing radio stations. It’s you know, about dreaming or spirituality. And then they hear my accent, especially overseas, and they want my opinion on Harry and Megan. It’s

RICK: fair. I’d rather hear about the Beatles, but then you’re not from Liverpool. So

THERESA: oh, the Beatles? Yes. Yes. How many Brits have been on that gap? I know you have

RICK: quite a few others. That fellow I was listening to just

THERESA: wait, get up for the bridge gap. That gap. So

RICK: we have a thing called Brit box over here that you can watch British? I mean, watches it but um, maybe I should call it that box. But um, who was that guy who was friends with was Eckert? Totally. He’s wrote that? Yeah, I’ve had Steve on. I was just

THERESA: listening to him. Yes, yes, Steve Taylor. In fact, I

RICK: want to email him because he mentioned something in your interview with him that I found fascinating, which was that he finds himself feeling blissful at funerals. And he thinks that people will think that’s strange, but I want to say me too. And it was not so much funerals. But when both of my parents died, I felt tremendous sort of upwelling of bliss. And not that I was happy they died. But in my father’s case, I didn’t even know he had died. And I was just having this amazing day, I was thinking, wow, this is wonderful. I feel so good today, what’s going on. And then later, I found out he had died the night before. And I think it’s somehow that we participate in their release, you know, that they’re there,

THERESA: they also return to you in spirit, don’t know that they can always be with you, in your memories in your dreams and in your heart. And it’s a kind of a fuller, richer relationship in some ways, because when someone’s in their physical form, it’s limited by time and space. Yeah. And when someone dies, that relationship in spirit, and that’s, that’s the wonderful thing, when you have lost someone that eventually you come to a point, when you enter into this new relationship in spirit, and realize how rich and fully

RICK: and in the case of my parents, they both live very difficult lives. And my father had a lot of PTSD from World War Two and alcoholism and all my mother all sorts of psychological problems. But in any case, I felt like with both of them, there, they must have experienced quite a delightful transition, you know, from what they had been experiencing to boom that release. And somehow I partook of this.

THERESA: Well, if you’ve ever stopped with people who’ve passed it’s it’s quite you know, the peace. The piece that I mean, obviously not always but when I you know, in my teens, I worked in a hospice and that was very powerful experience holding someone’s hand and but instinctively when I was with them the you just sent that something the spirit when the spirit goes, it’s It’s is a blissful relief.

RICK: Did you ever hear one Job said just as he was dying? Oh, wow, exactly three times.

THERESA: Oh, wow. Three times. He was such an intuitive man as well. You know, he went, Oh, well, what was he seeing? What was he saying? Yeah, but you instinctively feel like the body becomes like quote that they’ve taken off that’s what it is it’s no longer them and that’s why I’m not actually big on funerals in a way either because I know that that beautiful Mary for iPhone I always love quoting you know, do not stand at my grave and weep you know, I am not there I do not sleep I’m the wind that blows you know, it’s just so beautiful. Idea way of understanding death. Yeah.

RICK: In the Vedanta tradition, they’re, they’re what they call coaches are sheets. And the the physical body is the outermost sheath. It’s called the Annamaya Kosha which means food Kosha because the body is made of food, and then there’s the the breath, the prana, Maya Kosha, the mind mana Maya Kosha, the intellect and then the innermost one is the bliss sheath, the anandamide, Kosha. And when, when the physical body dies, it’s believed that all you’re shedding is the outermost sheath, and that the other sheets still exist and function on whatever realm you end up in.

THERESA: These are beautiful representations, isn’t it? The same thing, how you know, every culture has, you know, given beautiful interpretations of this, this release that Steve was talking about, I agree this, but you know, I don’t want to glamorize death in any way. And I am conscious when I have written afterlife books to Not tonight, you know, the death is this great adventure, you’re going to We’re here on this earth for a very important reason. Because this earth is almost a bit like school, we’ve got an important things to learn. And there’s, you can have heaven on earth, absolutely. at you. And people often say the afterlife is you can experience it right now. Through what you say what you do what you feel you, I believe, actually, that you create the kind of afterlife you will experience by what you’re feeling, thinking and doing, that we actually create, through our, through our lives. And that’s why you know, the concept of does a serial killer, go back to that same? Do they go to heaven? Do they have this blissful relief? They shouldn’t? Surely if they’ve been horrible, they’ve killed lots of people, what happens to them in the afterlife? That’s another question I get. And I think that in the afterlife, just as in this life, the learning continues. And I believe that the spirit of someone who has been evil will have to feel what they’re victims, or the people they hurt. So there’s empathy I’ve

RICK: ever done in a story. That is one of these well known near death experience, people and he had four MDS twice, getting struck by lightning and two and heart surgeries. And in each and he had been a sharpshooter, in Vietnam, you know, killing people. And what he experienced was a life review in each nd in which he experienced the consequences of his actions from the perspective of the people whom they influenced, and the families of those people and so on. He had to kind of go through everything they experienced as a result of having their loved one killed. And what an awesome song. That was, and he doesn’t. I mean, he, he’s dedicated his life to helping people in hospice situations and things like that. No, but, you know, it’s kind of interesting to hear him describe it. Because it’s not, it’s not a punishment. It’s more like a learning.

THERESA: Learning. It’s growth. Yes. So that it’s not that I don’t believe in hell. But it’s the learning I think, on the on the on the on the other side, but also, what an awesome thought, because near death experiences, classically talk about the life review, don’t they? Watching your life, again, typically in reverse? And I always think, well, do I really want to watch my life, if I’m doing something that I don’t, if I’m doing something I’m not proud of, you’re going to have to see this again, I that’s often very powerful for me, if I do something that is not in line with, you know, my values, or my highest self, whatever, and I think we’re too I want to watch this again, and that’s a really, you’re gonna have to watch your again, you’re gonna eat live every interview again?

RICK: Well, that’d be okay. They’ve been fun. But even now, don’t you have the experience I do that you often will relive or dwell upon something that happened many, many years ago, and you’re kind of particularly, you know, negative things I’ve done that have hurt people and I just sort of go through it and I feel like I’m kind of processing it and reaching out for forgiveness to the person and things like that.

THERESA: We’ve all we’re all human. We all have a shadow side and why we do I don’t know but we do and but I think in those cases, especially if you have hurt someone and you can’t reach out to them or they don’t want to communicate anymore, I think there’s there is great value in sending them positive energy that you know, sending them the energy that you understand that because a lot of people they want to know how you made them feel I think they’ve a lot of people want to be seen and heard. And I think if and if they say won’t communicate with you just sending them that healing energy, I think can have a dramatic effect, not only on yourself, but also on them in an unseen way. So, yeah, I just just I mean, I say that to anyone listening, if you’re feuding with someone, or there’s animosity, or you’ve hatred, I hate that term. But you know, we have it all within us just try for three days to send them compassion. And it makes a radical difference. Radical differences. It’s a big shift. It’s a big shift, but you can do it.

RICK: Yeah, I heard a story on the radio the other day about this guy, who, when he was 14, had killed another boy. And then he had spent many, many years in prison, even though he was 14 when he did it. And eventually, the father of the boy had killed had come to prison and had befriended him or maybe he had written to the Father, I don’t know. But they have become like, dear friends, and the guy who killed the other guy’s son now works for an organization that that he has established that they’re, they’re kind of helping people with forgiveness and helping, you know, helping people who have been through experiences like that. So obviously,

THERESA: I think the forgiveness is a forgotten word. These days, actually, I think there’s not enough emphasis in spirituality on we talk about love and compassion and empathy. Forgiveness, I think is something that’s a little bit neglected in the spiritual repertoire. Forgiveness of ourselves, as well as others works

RICK: both ways. You know, I mean, the father of the boy, if he had just continued hating this kid all of his life, it would have been eating away at

THERESA: him. You give up your power.

RICK: Instead, something beautiful came out of it. So What haven’t we covered? You’ve written so many books, shall we talk about psychic cats?

THERESA: Russell Brand and you know, the most bonkers interview ever actually, this was actually because up until Russell Brand, actually, which was a few years ago, I really hadn’t done much media, because I do try and practice what I preach. And I very much feel that spiritual books are something that people find that they don’t need to be marketed. I really do believe probably your

RICK: publishers bugging you to get out and promote more, yes,

THERESA: yes. Or I should stop doing what I’m doing and go and retreat something or go to the monastery or Nunnery wherever I wanted to go. But it was one of the first ones I did really, and he mentioned psyche cats. And since then, it’s had a bit of a research. It’s people basically, and it annoys me because Rupert Sheldrake wrote about the telepathic bond between human and dog. He is not of that, because he’s a scientist, however, trees a charm, you know, she writes about it, let’s have a good old laugh, you know, and it’s what I suppose it played into the stereotype of as per a woman of a certain age she lives with think she’s, but basically, it’s a beautiful book, you know, I had a cat when I was growing up, that was my best friend, I had it for about nearly 20 years and died just before I went to Cambridge. And that beautiful cat was, I think, for Angel and, and that inspired the book. And then people write to me about how their cats have sense to how they feel. Cat, so use hospital settings, as well as dogs. I mean, I’m now very, I have both two cats and two dogs at the moment. It can work, there is an apartheid in that it can work. I love them both. And I think animals are, I think, actually, you can tell a lot about a person the way they treat animals.

RICK: We’ve had I read in particular, but I think I also experienced this with a couple of our cats, or even maybe dogs when they died. Is it some kind of afterlife? Message or communication or something from them?

THERESA: That’s from heaven. Yes. Was that one of your books? From heaven? Right? No, I was asked to write it. I was signed to write it, but I changed it actually in the end after. But no, I get a lot of messages from people because, you know, actually, the relationship between a human and their pet can sometimes be one of the most important relationships in a person’s life. And I think pet bereavement is a big underneath neglected area. That, you know, these are their best friends sometimes. And people do have afterlife experiences involving their cat or their dog or their horse or their rabbit and it’s not to be laughed at because love in any form is valid. I believe animals have souls. I believe that they have empathy. They’re natural empaths dogs are natural empaths you know, and when that goes from your life, you know, it’s tough and I You can connect with pets on the app, you can connect to pets on the other.

RICK: Hand, Rupert Sheldrake on your podcast,

THERESA: I haven’t actually gets annoyed. He wasn’t. He wasn’t laughed at, you know, he

RICK: gets left out, believe me, a lot of people think,

THERESA: well, that anyone in this area does, you know, even the eye on scientists, they get a lot of flack, don’t they? But you know, that’s okay. That’s okay. I get laughed at. But you know, as I said, this year, not so much, Rick, it’s been a take a pandemic to unleash me. But now people are seeking out spiritual insight. I wouldn’t say guidance. I don’t think I guide I just offer a perspective.

RICK: What do you say? I mean, say something CEOs, those companies all the time. Do Yeah. I mean, saying he shows psychic abilities like Yeah, right. Like, if we even think about going someplace, you know, taking a walk or something. We have to be really, really careful. Because even even thinking the thought he’s like, Well, yeah, his ears perk up. Maybe there’s some kind of signals we’re letting out or something. I don’t know. But it’s,

THERESA: it’s unconditional love as well. And that to me is an angel. So I think that pets can be angels, but that’s your next guest. Do for two hours. I’ll bet you that we’ll get more

RICK: than that she’s fast asleep. Irene can pick. Maybe you pick her up. Oh, what is what is? Pick Luna? What is Luna? Please come see over Yeah, you can hold the over here don’t actually give them to me.

THERESA: I think he’s got to be

RICK: there is that’s the is it is a psychic to any.

THERESA: But this is where I’m wealthy because I say to people, if people offered me like a billion dollars, or my doggie, I choose my dog. So I’m wealthy already. Beautiful dog you have CO is gorgeous Thea rock.

RICK: Right? She pretty.

THERESA: This is the future for you look at that. Oh, no, no, no, I can’t talk about anything else and thinking, Oh, they

RICK: used to have a couple of cats. Sometimes one of them would walk in front of the camera like they should see its tail going across.

THERESA: Oh, my lovely. They’re lovely. They’re great companions. And say the way you treat animals says a lot about you as a person. Yeah.

RICK: People like Gandhi and others have said similar things, you know. And Jesus, of course said What You Do whatsoever you do unto the least of these you do unto me?

THERESA: Yes, I agree. I think that we are creating, we know the barbaric way that animals are treated, we’re creating a very negative energy and force in the world. I mean, I’m not advocating obviously I’m a vegetarian, of course I would be but you know, I don’t have anything against people aren’t as long as the animals are treated humanely. It’s cruelty against animals. It’s one of the reasons I think I said this on Russell that I went on social media for several years because some of the images of animal cruelty. I literally, I couldn’t cope. I found them too upsetting because I’d replay them in my mind. And I had, you know, managed to deal with it now. But I just cannot understand how anyone could be cruel to it’s the innocence I think yeah,

RICK: that’s why people love them see innocence. Yeah, the trust. And again, it all comes back to you know, like, Here’s an analogy if you if you had a knife, let’s say that was sharp on both ends and didn’t have a handle and you stab somebody with that knife. You’re also cutting your own hand you know? And I think any kind of mistreatment of people or animals or anything else is like that knife it hurts them but it hurts you just as much if not more

THERESA: what is that beautiful thing is when you point a finger There’s one

RICK: three pointing back at you.

THERESA: Yeah, yeah, so it’s like you know God Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

RICK: Already so is there anything else that we want to cover that you’re going to not be able to sleep and dream tonight because we hadn’t covered once you once we

THERESA: just know I’m just just love it. I really am very grateful for the opportunity and to talk to you. And I’m so glad I found your channel. Yeah, spread the word about it. I’m just very grateful. Thank you.

RICK: Let’s stay in touch I can. I can recommend some people to who you might not be aware of that might be good to have on your podcast and you’re, you’re connected to all kinds of people that you could tell us about. And

THERESA: absolutely any guest on my podcast, you’d like their contact, just let me know. As I say, Christopher Johnson, he’s a very eloquent men, former member of a cult and the Netflix documentary, holy hell was Chris, you know, it’s very famous. And he makes powerful and memorable appearance in that he will get a lot of interest. You know, even addicts

RICK: scheduled at one point sort of tentatively, but then it kind of fell through the cracks. That was like five or six years ago, we should do that.

THERESA: Oh, yes, you’ve got to let me know. And I’ll connect you he would love to a place in his life now. And that’s what he’s doing. He’s just spreading the word. Just try to think cuz obviously, you want names that are going to go away

RICK: and do it afterwards, too. I mean, you know, by emails, we can communicate about this, I read chooses the guests and schedules them. So thank you. I read you saying thank you. Just behind the throne? I don’t know. I think she’s on the throne. Oh, gosh,

THERESA: no, I’m just showing you don’t want me to do my Harry and Megan commentary.

RICK: If you insist.

THERESA: What is taken over over here in the UK at the moment, the media is awash with it. It’s ridiculous, you know, people are having opinions about it. And, you know, so

RICK: it’s almost that same principle we’ve been discussing where people project something onto others and think of them as like, special, and they should consume all the airtime because they’re so famous or whatever. And we’re not princes and princesses, you know, and they are and I don’t know, it just seems kind of, it’s a form of entertainment more than anything.

THERESA: It’s entertainment. It’s you know, but what happened in your country, especially last year is that your your politician politics in particular became better than a Netflix series? I mean, it we’re over here in the UK are like watching it like next installment, and on the edge of our movie. What do you what happened to America? In your opinion? What happened?

RICK: I don’t know. I have been following the whole conspiracy theory thing. A lot of I’ve interviewed three guys who have a podcast called can spirituality where they talk about the incursion of conspiracy thinking into the spiritual world, spiritual community. But obviously, whatever’s going on in America goes far beyond just spiritual communities. There’s, and he probably seen the Netflix documentary. What is it called? The one about about social the social dilemma. That’s it?

THERESA: Yeah. Oh, my goodness.

RICK: So everybody’s getting kind of going down their own rabbit holes and getting more and more polarized. And as you were saying earlier, being more kind of entrenched in their particular perspectives, and not not being broad minded to see multiple perspectives and, and the whole social media thing reinforces that, and it’s, you know, it’s made politics unworkable. It’s made families unable to divide each other. And so some or other that’s got, we’ve got to move beyond all that.

THERESA: Obviously, I’m hearing, you know, I’m a Brit based author. But you know, as I said, I had this opportunity. Last year to go on Coast to Coast for two hours, I did two hours a dream decoding was wonderful. They were really kind. But it was kind of going into that world, because obviously being on the line for two hours. And the adverts I was hearing and the and it was all China virus and I’m thinking, oh God, Teresa Chung. Oh, yeah. It was like really kind of quite unsettling. You know, and, you know, having my surname that I do, although I’m not Chinese, my, my husband is, it was kind of, I couldn’t believe it. I was in this fight. I, but also, what I found when I went into that, to our on coast to coast was, I could understand why people were believing this because there was a very family feel, there was a sense of belonging, you believe this and we’re give you this and you belong. It felt very, almost weirdly reassuring, because all the thinking had been done for you. So it was kind of a comforting experience also going into that world. I mean, they treated me very, they were lovely, actually had no complaints, but it was it was not I didn’t expect that. I think another feature

RICK: of is is you, you know, you get into a certain group like Q anon or, or something and you feel like, oh, no, I’m kind of in the inner circle. I really understand what’s going on, you know, aren’t I special? And all these other people are just sheeple who are being duped by the mainstream media and they’re blind and it gives you a sense of his superiority or aggrandized as your ego Go that you get a hit on that.

THERESA: It’s very seductive. But it was It wasn’t like that

RICK: when it comes to, you know, the best guru and and we’re also enlightened and everybody else is you know sub subpar.

THERESA: Everybody wants to feel special, but we can we can all feel special in our own unique way. We don’t need to belong to a group, you know, we can become, you know, I think there’s stages on there there’s being belonging, becoming and bliss. I think of life like that. And I think we, we go through those stages in our life. catch glimpses of bliss along the way. Yeah, that

RICK: Groucho Marx said, I wouldn’t want to join a club that would accept me as a member. Yeah, that’s the already well, you and I could go on for another two hours. But

THERESA: oh, I love your gracious host. Thank you. Thank you.

RICK: It’s been fun. And the people watching have remained fairly consistently high up in the 200 zone, despite all of our frivolity. So hopefully they find this

THERESA: entertaining. If you just want to skip to the end and say, watch the Disney Pixar movie. So that says everything I want to say about. You got to please, please, I’d love your thoughts on it. Because it just, it’s where I’m at now, actually, it’s wonderful. I think it’s I have to find out where it is where we can watch that. Okay, it’s finding meaning where you don’t think you’re going to find it. It’s all about that. That meaning isn’t found where we all think it is.

RICK: Yeah, I’ve heard good things about it. Okay, well, on that note, let’s wrap it up. But we’ll be in touch and keep cranking out the books. Maybe we’ll do another interview when you hit the 200. Mark?

THERESA: Oh, absolutely. Okay, can you get to the 1000? Yeah, I’ll get

RICK: to the 1000 interviews to get to the 200 bucks.

THERESA: Probably when you get to the other side, you’ll be interviewing all the angels as well. I can see it,

RICK: probably well, yeah, this whole thing started, I was in this group. And we met every Wednesday night for about three hours in, in a little living room in some guy’s apartment. And we sometimes packed like 30 people into this little living room. It was just had this spiritual discussion that went on for about three hours. And it was really kind of profound, and I really got a high off it. And but I would kind of interview people, I would start probing people and asking them questions, and the ground rule was, you’re supposed to just talk about your own experience. And so the guy the host of the thing kept saying, Stop interviewing people, you’re interviewing people. And And finally, he was the one that pushed me to start this show. He said, You know, you should really be interviewing people watch it.

THERESA: That’s, that’s your Yeah, that’s what you got to go with. That curiosity. The Curiosity is, again, is another foundation stone of spiritual spirituality. For me. Curiosity is a really important part of the spiritual journey.

RICK: Yeah, I think we both have that. And probably a lot of people who are watching this do too. It’s like, life is so fascinating. And they’re just so many interesting things and people and

THERESA: once you dip your toe into this, you never there’s you’re never bored again. Yeah. Because there’s always more to learn isn’t there? And to discover this, this journey?

RICK: Yeah, boredom is like, I don’t think I’ve felt bored for decades. I don’t know what it feels like. It’s because everything is fascinating.

THERESA: It is. It is including sleep and dream. Absolutely.

RICK: Yeah. All right. So let’s stop rambling. Thank

THERESA: you. Thank you, Ari. Uh, no, she’s

RICK: she she stepped out of the room.

THERESA: Oh, okay. Well, thanks. Please. Thank you.

RICK: And thank you to those who’ve been listening or watching. I hope you enjoyed this one.

THERESA: Sticking with us. Thanks. Thanks for hanging

RICK: in there. We’re both a couple of goofballs, obviously. But so maybe it’s just the goofballs. Stay with us. Yes, thanks. Thank you. Anyway, next week, I’m going to interview a guy named Rabbi Rami Shapiro. And I’m going to try and experiment with it because you know, we we send out a form to the people that we’re going to interview and we asked them like, what do you want Rick to watch? What do you want Rick to read? And all this stuff? And he said, I don’t want you to watch anything or read anything. I want you to just know nothing about me and we’re going to have a conversation, which is the way Larry King used to do it. He didn’t want to know anything about his guests. So I’ll try that next week. I won’t know anything about this guy can’t tell you anything about him now, but

THERESA: make you’re gonna you’re gonna get go you know.

RICK: Listen to other stuff all weekend, read other stuff.

THERESA: You’re gonna get a go I forget, I got to be a precog you’re going to Oh,

RICK: no, I can’t because you said I would. Yeah. Anyway, that’s what’s happening next week. So thanks for listening or watching and visit bat gap calm and check out the menus and see what’s there. You know, you can sign up to be notified by email when new interviews, you can subscribe to the audio podcast. And if you’re watching on YouTube, which you probably are, please subscribe to the channel if you wish. And once you hit the subscribe button, a little bell pops up and if you hit the bell also then they they really notify you when a new thing comes rather than just sporadically. Anyway, thanks, and we’ll see you next week. Thanks, Teresa. Thank you. Talk to you later.