Stuart Schwartz Transcript

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Stuart Schwartz Interview

Rick Archer: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer. Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of interviews with spiritually awake or Awakening people. There are nearly 300 of them now. And if you go to batgap.com Bat gap, you’ll see them all archived in various ways. And there’s also a donate button there. And the whole show is made possible by the support of viewers or listeners like you. Today, my guest is Stuart Schwartz. And welcome, Stuart. Hello, Stuart in a beautiful setting down in southern Florida as you can see from the video here. And I’ve heard good things about Stuart over several years now since I began doing this. And so I’m really pleased to have him on as a guest. I think we’ll start with a little quote that Stuart sent me he said he was recently at a whirling dervish meditation in Istanbul, and he read how Rumi summarized his life, I was immature, I became experienced, I was consumed. And Stewart said he could divide his lifetime into those categories. Also, starting with a life driven by conditioning, resulting in a very successful appearance without much satisfaction, then the search for real happiness and peace, decades of working with different modalities and sitting with many masters, leading to teaching others how to relinquish conditioning and experience peaceful silence. And now Satsang, which the word conducts, starts with the truth of everyone, the perfection of self. And I’ll keep reading here from it, because this is nice. The tapestry of life includes all as the expression of consciousness without any separation, anything that attempts to obscure this truth melts in its power. And Stuart gives Satsang in America, Canada, Europe, as well as private Satsang sessions. And he is the author of The Great undoing, which I have here. Great I’m doing from nonduality Praesent is website is Satsang. With stewart.com, we’ll be repeating some of that later. So Stuart, usually these interviews have two main components to them. You know, one is the person’s story, which you kind of summarized with the Rumi quote, and the other is, what they’re teaching, you know, if they have a teaching that they can articulate, and people like both, and when I leave out one of the other, I get complaints. So, so let’s and some people don’t like to talk about their story, they say, it’s only my story. And you know, it’s not who really who I am, and so on and so forth. But, you know, it’s, people like to hear it. And we can perhaps play with the notion of that we both are and are not our story, in some sense. So let’s go into yours a little bit, if you would. I understand you were a student of Lester Levinson. I heard interesting things about him. Also, I think I’ve interviewed one person who was close to in the fifth Hale Dwoskin. Do you know hell?

Stuart Schwartz: Sorry. Well, yeah. Pretty many years, right? Actually, hell introduced me to Lester,

Rick Archer: okay. But we’re jumping ahead of the story, because there’s the immature phase, starting with your life driven by conditioning, resulting in a very, very successful appearance without much satisfaction.

Stuart Schwartz: You know, I think maybe it should be reversed, Rick, okay, that maybe people should hear about how the teaching is going. And then if they’re a new snack, in all the harsh struggle, and the appearances that look good and didn’t work, maybe then they’d be more interested in that as a follow up.

Rick Archer: All right, let’s do that. I’m fine. I’m flexible.

Stuart Schwartz: I thought so.

Rick Archer: Yeah. So how’s the teaching going?

Stuart Schwartz: The teaching is going like being very present. And however the group comes in like Thursday’s, here, it’s satsang. The group will come in. Sometimes they’ll be happy and laughing and I’ll walk in and suddenly get very quiet. Like it’s serious stuff. But however it is, is what I try and follow. You know, be very present to whatever it is because really, that’s what the teaching is conscious awareness in the moment. And the only problem to that is what people believe, what they’re holding on to, and what still seems real. So Satsang really is about meeting that. You’ve heard that a million times, allowing whatever is coming up, meeting it. I know a lot of people don’t like to talk about the story. But you know, it really reveals everything. And it does open up to the silence, which we sit in for a long period of time.

Rick Archer:  In your satsangs

Stuart Schwartz:  In the satsangs,

Rick Archer: right.

Stuart Schwartz: Very deep. Silence. Yeah.

Rick Archer: So. So during the Satsang, you have meditative sessions, I think was what you’re saying, where you just sit in silence, and you’re not talking to the people?

Stuart Schwartz: Right? We’re all silent.

Rick Archer: Right? And this is down in South Florida, but obviously, you travel around also and do them.

Stuart Schwartz: That’s right.

Rick Archer: Yeah. So I think it may go, the way you phrased it was, the only problem is people have things they’re How did you say that they’re attached to? Or that they’re dealing with? Or something? You can rephrase it. But how is that a problem?

Stuart Schwartz: It’s a problem. Because if you’re attached to being this person, then you’ve got a history of conditioning that’s operating. And there’s always some kind of trying to get it right, trying to learn something trying to hold on to what you know, all of it stops you from being open to the moment.

Rick Archer: Does not being attached to being a person… Pardon? Wait a minute your audio broke up a little bit there, what you’re saying?

Stuart Schwartz: The whole thing.

Rick Archer: It just broke up for a second, go ahead and repeat what you were just saying?

Stuart Schwartz: Well, I was just saying that. The only problem is that if you’re attached to being you know, this particular person that everything you know, is in the present moment, every every condition that’s ever gone in, is right there. So then there’s always a question of trying to get better to strive, to change, to modify. And you can’t very well be open in the moment, if you’re doing all of that stuff.

Rick Archer: Right. What I find is that there’s always this paradoxical situation, for instance, you know, you said that, if you’re attached to being a person, alright, does not being attached to being a person mean that you aren’t a person? Or does it mean that in some sense, in some dimension you are, but you’re just not attached to it, and you’re much more than just a person?

Stuart Schwartz: I would say that, that presses a lot of buttons when you say anything about being or not being a person. Because there, it gets into so many different ways of looking at it, like you’re not a person, so you, you can’t do anything, and nothing matters,

Rick Archer: right,

Stuart Schwartz: which could lead to a lot of trouble.

Rick Archer: And there are some teachers who really hammer on that point.

Stuart Schwartz: Absolutely. And I meet some of those students, and they can get into a lot of trouble. If there’s a little imbalance, it doesn’t matter. I don’t mean it that way. What I mean is, we have bodies,

Rick Archer: right

Stuart Schwartz: We have talents. And we have things to do, we’ve got minds, and we have jobs. But something comes before that. That’s what I focus on. You know, who we really are before that is that presence. And that’s overlooked. And if we’re not at home with that presence, that presence, then whatever we’re doing isn’t quite right. Something is something is amiss, until you come back home.

Rick Archer: And obviously, when you say before, you don’t mean sequentially in time, you mean more, more fundamentally, essentially, we are presence. And then in a more manifest sense, we are a person with a job with a family and all that.

Stuart Schwartz: That’s right.

Rick Archer: Yeah

Stuart Schwartz: It’s right here all the time.  And everybody is that.

Rick Archer: Right.  Um hmm

Stuart Schwartz: And it’s overlooked.

Rick Archer: Yeah. And you just said an interesting thing, which is that if it’s not overlooked, if you’re kind of resting in that, then it these weren’t your exact words, but it tends to align your relative life in a much more smooth and frictionless and conflict free fashion than is I think that’s what you’re indicating.

Stuart Schwartz: Yes. Hopefully. Right.

Rick Archer: Hopefully. Yeah.

Stuart Schwartz: And sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes things arise that are very irritating or whatever. But thank God that there is that presence because it can meet it better.

Rick Archer: As like a buffer.

Stuart Schwartz: Yeah, like there was a woman here. There’s a woman that comes every week, who is very much the person and very proud of her conditioning, and a lovely woman. And she was saying, you know, very recently I lost the hearing in my left ear I think she said, Yeah. And, you know, since I’ve been coming here, I don’t care so much, because I feel fine. And I can just see it for what it is. Because it’s, she’s telling me now that she’s not the body in her own words. And it’s great. It’s great to see somebody that’s open. You know, I have my opinions. And I’m listening. You know?

Rick Archer: Yeah. Yeah. So it gives you a, I guess you what you’re saying is it gives you a larger perspective. Because if we think that we’re only this little narrow, you know, time bound, flesh bound thing, then, you know, it’s we’re in pretty shaky ground. But if we’re, if we’re deeper, more pervasive, more, well, not more, but utterly pervasive, unchangeable, and indestructible presence, then it’s a pretty solid foundation,

Stuart Schwartz: I would say resting Rick,

Rick Archer: Umhm

Stuart Schwartz:  I would say relaxed.

Rick Archer: Yeah,

Stuart Schwartz: that’s what I would say,

Rick Archer: relaxed in the presence,

Stuart Schwartz: I would just say, you know, at home, kind of relaxed, and open. And here, not necessarily standing for anything, or knowing anything in the moment. Because that would mean I would be going further into the persona and the mind and standing for something. But right now, as I’m talking to you, I’m looking at you. I don’t do this every Saturday morning. You know, you don’t know what it’s gonna be like. And now it’s just like, talking to a friend.

Rick Archer: Yeah.

Stuart Schwartz: That’s what it’s about. You’re open. This is what’s next. And we’re sharing.

Rick Archer: And when you say relaxed, you know, you look pretty relaxed, sitting there in Florida, and maybe somebody laying on the beach in Barbados, or something feels pretty relaxed. But I think you’re talking about the kind of relaxation, one could also experience in Manhattan, even possibly, you know, working as a stock trader or something on the, you know, on Wall Street in the midst of hectic activity.

Stuart Schwartz: Well, I have worked with people that are on Wall Street, stockbrokers, and they do take breaks, and they get very relaxed, and then they go back into the pit, as they call it. Yeah. And I suppose you could say that’s very true. But I would say that anybody anywhere driving a car is the same thing. You know? It’s like, you never know what you’re gonna see. And that can be pretty stressful.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Well, the point I’m getting at is I and I think you’re getting at is the kind of piece you’re talking about a relaxation you’re talking about, is not something that’s so much dependent upon circumstances that if it’s really anchored, then it will be there, regardless of how the circumstances change, at least to some degree, hopefully.

Stuart Schwartz: Of course,

Rick Archer: yeah,

Stuart Schwartz: of course.

Rick Archer: And so, I watched the, or listen to an interview you did with Renata Mcnay, which I thought was beautiful interview, the two of you, each had lost the child yours, your son slowly over a period of time due to bone cancer, I think you said and hers quite suddenly and unexpectedly. But it was a very sweet interview that I recommend people watch or listen to that. The reason I bring it up is that you know what we were just saying about having recourse to a deeper, more fundamental reality presents can give one perspective, even in tragic circumstances, such as that, which is really quite different than the perspective that many, many people in this world are confined to. So you want to just elaborate a little bit on that.

Stuart Schwartz: Well, that was quite a while ago, the actual incident and the interview was a few years ago. I’ve been looking, I think it’s interesting that you brought up death because two interviews and here we go on death again.

Rick Archer: Yeah, well, we want to spend the whole interview on it like you guys did,

Stuart Schwartz: But you know, I have a whole new way of looking at death these days.

Rick Archer: Uh huh

Stuart Schwartz: A death is always something like to be avoided in our culture.

Rick Archer: Mmmm

Stuart Schwartz: You know, it’s like the end. And it’s kind of points out to our mortality all the time. We don’t want to face it. And I think a very good thing you know, you hear people talking about in the circles about meeting things that welcoming things, and embracing, I think it’s time, we started looking at death in a more practical and very simple way. Because it’s in our culture, and avoided everywhere.  And I think we could make friends with it. Because it’s happening every moment. And I don’t mean the final death. Lately, I’ve been looking at the very core of this relaxation that I’m talking about. And it’s by going straight back to the breath. In any given moment. When we take a breath, and we look at it, it’s coming from absolutely nothing. Emptiness. And if we don’t breathe, it will force us to breathe. And then when we breathe, we say it’s waking us up into life, right? Immediately, we breathe and I am alive. And then we exhale, well, that exhale is kind of like a death right there, the breath is finished. We breathe it in its life. It goes out, it’s done, it’s finished. And we don’t even notice it like that, because we say it’s the continuum. But if we go one step back, and just look at the breath, it ignites that consciousness that we were talking about before. before it even gets to your mind, you are consciously aware, and awake, and there it is, and it’s overlooked so much. And then it wakes up the whole body, there we are. And then it’s over. Finished.

Rick Archer: Yeah.  I know that in yogic traditions, they talk a lot about the breath and prana, and so on. And I am not qualified to elaborate. But it’s said to have a very deep sort of ontological significance in terms of, you know, the very sort of deepest roots of our of our being, are connected in, in some kind of profound way with the breadth and so on. As I said, I’m not qualified to really elaborate, but it’s in eastern in that in that culture, and perhaps some others breath is considered a lot more significant and profound thing than then we understand it from a mere physiological perspective.

Stuart Schwartz: But I don’t even think you have to go into those modalities very deeply,

Rick Archer: right,

Stuart Schwartz: because it’s a process that’s going on all the time. And so I’m always pointing people to go back to watching the breath, just watching the process, not making it into something already established, but watching their own pattern, and the ebb and the flow of life happening. And then webbing, ebb and flow of breath. Because when you get into that pattern you receive from your own mind, naturally and easily. And there you are, you don’t have to change anything.

Rick Archer: This is something that you advocate people doing as a meditative practice, or even throughout the day,

Stuart Schwartz: I would suggest doing it, I started doing it, let’s say if I got up in the middle of the night, and I wound up, just noticing myself watching the breath. And adding I am to the in and the outbreath, I found the very comforting and cured insomnia, most of the time, very soothing. So I started including it in with the satsangs. And the more that I’ve done it, the more than I realize that it’s more simple than simple and completely overlooked. It’s kind of miraculous, if you actually look at it without trying to make it into any kind of practice at all. Because I haven’t done that. I’ve just looked at how it works. Kind of like in slow motion. Watch it in slow motion, from absolutely nothing comes this force that makes you take in this breath. And if you just watch how it feels, as it just enters you. You’re totally awake and conscious. Before you even know who you are. That’s pretty fantastic.

Rick Archer: Yeah. So just so people can derive something. Something they can take home from this, so to speak. I guess what you’re saying is, you know, not just maybe spend some quiet At time, with your eyes closed or something sitting and doing this, but you’re walking down the street, walking the dog or something, rather than just letting your attention be scattered all over, let it rest on the breath a little bit and observe the breath and the breath as you’re engaged in that activity. Is that mean to put words in your mouth? But is that the kind of thing you’re suggesting?

Stuart Schwartz: I would? I would, I would agree with that.

Rick Archer: Yeah.

Stuart Schwartz: I would agree with that. And you know, it’s very funny, Rick, it’s so powerful, and so effective. And I asked people, if they’re doing it, and they say, sometimes it’s so effective, it seems the habit of modifying the person and getting somewhere is so strong. The life pattern is so ingrained, I mean, we’re always future oriented. We’re always going somewhere we’re always attaining we’re learning, you know, to stop to leave, that alone, is almost getting back to what you were saying, like a death to the character. Yeah, you know, how they say die to the ego? Well, we have such a bad connotation of dying, we don’t want to die to anything. Yeah, this is me, you say. So I don’t want to stop the conversation. I don’t want to stop where I’m going, I don’t want to stop my thoughts. I want more, and I want to learn more. And I want to, I’m focusing on something, you know. So that’s why I think people, even people that want to be who they are finding it difficult to stop a lot of times, unless they’ve done it a lot. And then they feel comfortable.

Rick Archer: Just before we lose the thread, you’re talking about this death thing I just happen to have been listening to a talk that some guy gave, I don’t even know his name. And he’s talking about death. And he’s talking about the brain. And this, the sort of helmet that can elicit spiritual experiences and all but he was talking about how he was in India, and in a taxi cab, and they were parading a dead body down the street, you know, and it mentioned here in the US, it’s kind of illegal even to have dead bodies in public. But he was, you know, and so the cab driver stopped and, and he said to the cab driver, how long are we going to be sitting here and, and he said, well, until it’s over, and, and then the cabbie turned around and said to him, you know, here in India, you know, death is part of life. And, and so everyone as they paraded the body down the street was stopping in the Mustang, and, you know, just kind of respecting that phase of that person’s life. And but here in the West, we we just tend to hide it away and pretend that it’s never gonna happen.

Stuart Schwartz: Well, we pretend it’s not gonna happen, but we ensure everything

Rick Archer: It’s true.

Stuart Schwartz: Don’t we? I mean, we have lots of insurance, and we have lots of ways of protecting ourselves, God forbid it should happen. You know, like, maybe it’ll skip over me. It’ll forget, you know?

Rick Archer: Yeah.

Stuart Schwartz: But because we’re so busy suppressing it. Consciously and living as this, you know, we’re afraid of it always protecting that we get ourselves into a rut.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Shankara is Shankara said that, you know, people live as though they’re never gonna die. And I know, a lot of spiritual teachers say that a better attitude is to live as though you know, you could die in the next moment. You know, like your a bird perched on a branch that could break at any time. And, you know, to live your life that way.

Stuart Schwartz: Can you do that?

Rick Archer: To an to a degree, you know, it’s like, I’m no perfect Master of doing anything. But, you know, the

Stuart Schwartz: best way of talking to so many people about similar ways of saying the same thing.

Rick Archer: Yeah, right. Again, not perfect. A work in progress.

Stuart Schwartz: How many do you have to do before it’s done?

Rick Archer: Infinite number

Stuart Schwartz: Infinite number.

Rick Archer: Sure. Is it ever done?

Stuart Schwartz: Well, you know, I would say if they’re, if you’re empty in the moment, and you have no desire in that particular moment, and you don’t have to change anything. In that moment, you could say you’re dead to yourself, which is another way of using the word. You know, it’s kind of like putting a different twist on it. It’s not it’s not morbid. It’s not final. It’s just that’s over in this moment.

Rick Archer: Yeah.

Stuart Schwartz: In a way. Yeah. Go ahead.

Rick Archer: No, you go ahead.

Stuart Schwartz: Well, in a way, it’s like, you know, when people were running off with trying to fix something or they’re in an emotion about something, really, the only thing that has to happen is to bring it to a conclusion to a stop. Sometimes I’ll actually put my hand up and say, just stop. It’s enough. I mean, we get it slow down, stop, take a press went back to that again, and put some space there. And that’s a death, it’s a death to that rush of emotion. Only it’s a positive death. It’s an ending. You expressed it, you felt it, you suffered it? And you let it stop. You know?

Rick Archer: Isn’t there some Buddhist expression dying before you die? Or something? Have you heard that one?

Stuart Schwartz: I have heard that.

Rick Archer: What does that mean to you?

Stuart Schwartz: It means died to the personality.

Rick Archer: And what does that mean?

Stuart Schwartz: It means that, you know, this is the way I am, this is the way I’ve been conditioned. And let him be. That’s a kind of a dying to it. Because I know that I’m something bigger than that. Everything that I know, is a person or ever said that this is the way it is, according to me, is just another way of saying my opinion, my point of view, and it’s all very relative, right? It locks me out of a bigger knowing. And especially peace.

Rick Archer: Yeah, so, but as a person, you must still have preferences. You like this kind of food, not that kind of food, maybe a vote if you vote for this candidate, not for that candidate. You know, you have certain individual proclivities. How do you reconcile those individual tastes with something which transcends them?

Stuart Schwartz: Does it need to be reconciled?

Rick Archer: The two just co-habit peacefully, even though they’re paradoxically dissimilar?

Stuart Schwartz: Well, if I go back to my description of watching the breath, so that there you are totally awake to the moment before, you know you think you’re conscious. But you don’t even know who you are. Let’s say you’re totally in the present moment. Right? So right now the person that you’re describing with likes and dislikes, political differences, he’s not there yet. Right? So if that’s present, you’re always aware of the person having the whole yin and yang of liking and not liking and doing and not doing. It’s kind of amusing to me. I’m watching him. There he goes. Now he’s complaining. Now he’s happy. Now he’s not so happy. He doesn’t like being stuck in traffic, or slow drives lots of slow drivers. That’s the way he is. Not a big deal.

Rick Archer: Yeah.

Stuart Schwartz: You know what I mean? That’s that’s life?

Rick Archer: Yeah, if you don’t like slow drivers move to Montana.

Stuart Schwartz: Fast?

Rick Archer: For a while there, they had no speed limit whatsoever. I think maybe they lowered it to 85. Now, because people were just getting too carried away.

Stuart Schwartz: What are the roads like in Montana?

Rick Archer: oh, you know, wide open spaces. For big sky country

Stuart Schwartz: Did you live there?

Rick Archer: No, we’ve traveled up there camping and stuff.

Stuart Schwartz: What’s it like in Iowa?

Rick Archer: Sort of a midway between Montana and Florida. You know, little bit hilly. The driving is kind of mid range. But I mean, we’re just joking around here. But I think perhaps the deeper point of what you just said is that, you know, there are always going to be frustrations, limitations restrictions, constrictions, you know, you’re living in Florida, there are a lot of older people driving on the roads, and they’re going to drive slowly. And, and, you know, but again, you’re not just the guy who’s, you know, only the little guy sitting behind the wheel feeling frustrated and leaning on the horn, there is a deeper presence that gives one a whole different dimension in which to reside, and makes these sort of superficial frustrations seem somewhat. I think you even use the word humorous that you watch this character and it’s kind of funny.

Stuart Schwartz: It is funny. And I wouldn’t say that it’s our very kind of steak that I’m talking about. Its present.

Rick Archer: Yeah,

Stuart Schwartz: you know what I’m talking Go back, you’re open and present, you know, and it’s not like you have to stand for anything in that.

Rick Archer: Right

Stuart Schwartz: It’s really a place of complete, wide open, not knowing. I don’t know what’s next. I don’t know what’s going to happen. Oh, something comes to mind. We were in one of those deep meditations in satsang. And it was going on and on and on. Sometimes I’ll play music to end it or I’ve got an app on my iPhone that has a bell, you know, I didn’t want to do anything. I absolutely did not want to stop it. Because everybody was so deep. Nobody was fidgeting. And I didn’t want to do anything. And I was just watching to see well, okay, let’s see how this unfolds. What’s next? How will this end, I’m not doing anything. On purpose. I’m just not going to do a thing. And we just continued. And the next thing I knew, the doorbell was ringing, and somebody is banging on the door. And everybody is like, now their eyes are open, and they’re watching. Somebody was at the door young woman was walking by frantic excited, nervous, scared, somebody left their car on right in front of my house, somebody that was in here and was running all this time. And it was really serious, which is watching her. Everything’s totally fine. You know. And that’s how it works. That’s how it ended.

Rick Archer: That’s funny. Seems there are more serious problems than somebody leaving their car on.

Stuart Schwartz: I just thought it was very interesting, because she was so excited. And it was, you know, something out of the norm. And everybody was just kind of watching like, well, that’s the next thing again, you know,

Rick Archer: yeah. There’s a book, which I’ve mentioned in some of these interviews. My camera stopped working. There we go. There’s a which was written by a woman named Suzanne Siegel, who had a profound awakening that freaked her out for a long time, because she didn’t know what it was. But her Mantra became, do the next obvious thing. And that’s the way she ended up living her life was just, somehow the next thing to be done, just made itself obvious and each step of the way.

Stuart Schwartz: So what’s the next thing we’re going to do?

Rick Archer: And that’s kind of how I conduct these interviews, you know, it’s like the same question bubbles to mind. Well, tell us a little bit more about what you do in Satsang, and so on. And then we’ll go then we’ll loop back and talk more about your life and how you ended up where you where you are, so to speak.

Stuart Schwartz: Okay. Well, I pretty well said, you know, whatever is present, we meet upstairs. Like one day, some two people came in bickering. And so there was no soft music or meditation to start with. It was meeting the bickering, you know, and hearing it out and getting it said and spoken and felt and letting it melt? I don’t know specifically, what else I could say about it really?

Rick Archer: Well, let me ask you this, how long you’ve been conducting these satsangs?

Stuart Schwartz: Since around 2000,

Rick Archer: So 15 years. And what sort of transformations have you seen in the lives of people who have been participating?

Stuart Schwartz: That’s a very good question. There’s some people that that are just so into the silence that it’s their whole life. They that’s how they know themselves now. And it’s beautiful to say it’s just like a complete new understanding of who they are. And they’re happier, more at rest. And themselves, really,

Rick Archer: and are those those tend to be the people who really kind of stuck with it and continue to participate regularly.

Stuart Schwartz: There are people that come like travel over two hours to come to Satsang. And I would say that’s pretty dedicated, dedicated, I would say, dedicated to themselves. There are other people that live closer that seem to have reasons not to come.

Rick Archer: Yeah.

Stuart Schwartz: You know, really, I look at it, Rick, as a bunch of friends, being themselves loving the presence so much. Sad. It’s just such a beautiful thing. hard to describe, changes everything. And, you know, you either resonate with that for some reason, and people do with different teachers who can explain why I can’t, I could go to a different state or a different country. And just a few people resonate with what I’m saying or how I’m doing. I don’t know why. And others don’t.

Rick Archer: I kind of think of it as like tuning forks or something, you know, I don’t know much about musical scales, but I imagine that certain tuning forks are going to get another tuning fork resonating with them more readily, than a different tuning fork, you know, because they’re kind of more closely matched on the scale or something. And I know this, this whole thing about transmission, has the implication that something is being you know, conveyed from point A to point B. But I kind of prefer the explanation that there is just an underlying field and that teacher and effective teachers, by virtue of His very presence is is able to enliven that field. And those in the vicinity with who have an affinity with that teacher will tend to attune, but to that Enlightenment, will tend to kind of wake up, or what’s the word? And train with the teacher by virtue of that proximity, that I that was a rather long winded explanation with a lot of big words. But does that make sense to you?

Stuart Schwartz: Completely

Rick Archer: Yeah.

Stuart Schwartz: And it’s not as if it makes sense either. Doesn’t have to make logical sense. You know,

Rick Archer: it’s kind of mysterious, but

Stuart Schwartz: you it’s very mysterious. You don’t know why, you know, because somebody just resonates with you. And they just drop into the silence, and they feel good. And they like it. Or they don’t,

Rick Archer: yeah,

Stuart Schwartz: some people love to talk about it. And they probably wouldn’t like my Satsang. Because I don’t do that.

Rick Archer: You don’t do much talking.

Stuart Schwartz: I don’t do much philosophizing, or talking about who you are, who you aren’t. I always point back to what’s before the mind. You know, so if you’re very attached to your mind, we might bicker.

Rick Archer: they might bicker you probably wouldn’t bicker.

Stuart Schwartz: Well, I mean, I’ve engaged with them. You say this, and I’ll say that. And it’s kind of like, well, they’ll tell me something that you don’t know. Tell me something before all the relative truth and the understanding. You know, and just be not very good for an interview though.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Well, you’re doing alright.

Stuart Schwartz: I put you in the spot.

Rick Archer: Nah, you’re doing alright. I remember Larry King saying his his worst interview was with Marlon Brando here that he would ask Brando a question. And Brando would just say, yes. That’d be it. You have to think of another question.

Stuart Schwartz: That’s very funny.

Rick Archer: Yeah.

Stuart Schwartz: The other day, I was listening to a comedian. Stephen Wright.

Rick Archer: Oh, I love Stephen Wright. I was listening to him. Oh, I was listening to him the other day myself. Actually.

Stuart Schwartz: Maybe you listen to the same thing that I listened to.

Rick Archer: Could be it was a stand up routine he did. Anyway, was there a particular joke he said that you liked?

Stuart Schwartz: It just struck me so funny, Rick, and it was he was talking about two infants swaddled in a hospital room. Did you hear this one?

Rick Archer: I don’t know if I did.

Stuart Schwartz: And they looked at each other. And they bonded these infants in a hospital room. And then he says, and then these, they’re back again in the hospital, but it’s 85 years later, and they’re swaddled in the hospital beds, but they’ve bonded so they know each other. But now they’re attached to tubes and machines and everything. And one looks at the other and he says so. How was it? 85 years old.

Rick Archer: That’s great.

Stuart Schwartz: It’s like It’s like taking the whole life and putting it into So how was the movie?

Rick Archer: Yeah. Steven Wright has a lot of good ones.

Stuart Schwartz: And he’s so dry isn’t he?

Rick Archer: I hope people will look them up Steve Ste. I think he spells it v n w ri ght that I can think of so many of the visitor great is one where he says I have the switch on my wall. doesn’t do anything, every once in a while I get bored and I stand there and just flicking on off. One day I was doing that. And a woman called me up from Germany and says cut it out

Stuart Schwartz: He’s like out of his out of his mind.

Rick Archer: You know, thinking about that, there’s, there’s that poem by Tennyson for men may come and men may go, but I go on forever. And he was actually writing about a brook. But there are many phrases in scriptures about the eternal nature of the self. And, you know, that know that to be indeed indestructible, by which all this is pervaded, and so on. And there’s, there’s a particular line, I’m thinking about this, because I’m putting together a talk for a conference I’m going to go to in the fall, but there’s a line in the some Upanishad, that says, smaller than the smallest bigger than the biggest, and it’s referring to the cell for the Atman. And I was thinking, okay, it was an example of something big, and I thought, okay, the Andromeda galaxy merging with the Milky Way galaxy over the next 8 billion years. And if you let 100 years equal a second, which is, you know, a generous estimate for human lifetime, it would take several 100 years just to have that whole event happen with, you know, trillions of lifetimes just flashing on and off like little strobe lights the whole time. So and yet, that is said to be the nature of the self that that presents that that you’ve been referring to which it just abides, you know, in the midst of vast spans of time and distance, and so on smaller than the smallest, bigger than the biggest Wherever you look, there it is. And that’s set to be who and what essentially, we are. And yet, there’s this tendency for us as we’re wired as individuals to just narrow down into very minut, individual boundaries, and perspectives. And I think what you’re doing is giving people a taste of that vast, unbounded perspective into as a counterweight or a counterbalance to the tendency to individuate. Again, a bunch of big words, and I talked too much. But that’s the sense I

Stuart Schwartz: I enjoyed listening to that, because I love what I really love to see is the exuberance that you feel about the knowingness and the spreadingness of that, that’s not really a very good way of saying spreads. But that’s what you’re doing. You’re, you’re you’re sending out your vibe of joy.

Rick Archer: Yeah,

Stuart Schwartz: That’s what I see. And what I see is a lot of a lot of effort that people were doing to try and fulfill dreams. You know, and it’s very hard to do that if you’re not a person, you know. So, you know, what I’m saying, people do have their dreams, and they have their desires. And I think it’s healthy, you know, and so they’re struggling along, and sometimes they have successes and failures, we’re back and forth. In this duality, I find that if you’re settled at home, in this presence, then the very next thing that you’re supposed to do is an outlet is a way of you expressing yourself better and more clearly, and more originally, than you could, if you were trying to modify circumstance and understand to make something happen.

Rick Archer: Yeah,

Stuart Schwartz: there I go with a lot of words,

Rick Archer: No those are good words. And this whole thing about making something happen. That’s a whole interesting topic, the authorship of action, you know, who really act who really makes Who is it, there’s really doing stuff, and making things happen? You know, we we really attribute the authorship to some individual entity, which we call me. But again, there are all sorts of beautiful scriptural references to the fact that you are not who you think you are, and things are not getting done by in the way you think they are. There’s actually, you know, you are not the author of your actions you are far beyond that, and sort of nature itself, or the divine, if you wish is, is carrying things out. And you’re really just the witness to all that.

Stuart Schwartz: And when you align yourself with that, then you become an expression of that.

Rick Archer: Yeah.

Stuart Schwartz: And it’s very natural. And you know, that it’s not the individual doing it, but it seems to be coming out of the individual. So it’s like, the more you align yourself with the truth of who you are, then you feel at home, and at home, you can start to express fully without any kind of limitation. And you certainly can’t do that with conditioning because conditioning is so limiting. And stifling. Really.

Rick Archer: Yeah, that’s beautiful. I’m glad We’re talking about this. On the one hand, you know, we need routines and habits. I mean, you learn how to drive a car that took a certain amount of practice, and you wouldn’t want to have to relearn it every time you did it, or even brushed your teeth. Or if you have a complex job, if you’re an airline pilot, or, you know, a brain surgeon, you know, we really hope that you have your habits and your knowledge deeply ingrained. But unless you’re very present, yeah, and that you’re very present, which is, which is a good point, which is because the, you know, the sort of the constant dwelling on boundaries tends to narrow down or restrict our awareness and our appreciation of presence. And, you know, what you’re doing with people, as I see it is bringing them back to presence and, you know, break enabling them to sort of be more than their conditioning?

Stuart Schwartz: Well, I would say even more than that, Rick, I would say that is a lot of effort, spiritually minded people are trying to break down their conditioning and change it. I certainly did that you right at the beginning of the interview, working on it and changing it and overcoming it. And I’m finding that whatever has been programmed in, it’s like the computer unless you can completely clean it out, somehow. Call apple, and just wipe me clean

Rick Archer: and buy a new one.

Stuart Schwartz: Right, exactly. We’ve done that. It’s really a question of going back, leaving it alone, going back to the source. And somehow, miraculously, things change, when you actually go home. Be yourself get still. And then all the change happens internally. And then you watch and you say, well, where’s that pattern? It’s not here. I’m shocked. I’ve been working on it for decades. And it’s not here. Yeah. And I wish all of them would be like, but we’re not in control, like you say, you know,

Rick Archer: my favorite analogy for that is that, you know, if, if the awareness is small, let’s say like a comparable to a glass of water, and you want to dissolve some mud, which would represent the patterns, you drop the mud in the water, and the whole glass gets muddied up the water is, doesn’t have the capacity to dissolve very much mud. But if if the awareness is vast, like an ocean, then you could throw in dump trucks full, and it’ll just kind of dissolve and the whole ocean won’t become muddy. So, you know, the tune, enabling people to tune into presence as you do should, and does, I imagine, enable them to unwind, you know, dump trucks full of habits and patterns that otherwise would bind them, you know, for decades to come throughout their life?

Stuart Schwartz: Hopefully, yeah. And also alleviate the suffering. And there is no limit to what the self will take. You could dump as much mud as much harder and as much stress as you want. Because as far as I could see, it’s the only thing that can really need it.

Rick Archer: Yeah. If you really have the capacity, and I think, you know, we all essentially, fundamentally do, but we’re not all awake to that to the same degree. You know, I mean, I mean, one of the most horrific examples, of course, was Christ being crucified. And I presume that he was deeply established, very profoundly Established in, in presence. And despite how that ordeal may have appeared from the outside, it may not have been as horrific in his subjective experience, because he continued to reside in deep, deep presence. But obviously, most of us are not of that status. And

Stuart Schwartz: yes, but go ahead.

Rick Archer: No, that’s the point.

Stuart Schwartz: What I was gonna say is, yes, you’re right. I agree with what you’ve said. But we have, we have our own way of doing it. And that is, have you ever noticed that you can be in presence and then you can be out of it? The mind comes back and then. So let’s say something really harsh happens to you that really gets you upset. So let’s say something really strong is coming where it doesn’t let you have the power to leave it. You can always go back and then it’ll pull you back into this is reality. This is too much to bear. Feel it? There’s that death again. Yeah. Let it bring it Back, if you have something really, really strong, that’s pulling at you something dire that’s going on in your life sickness, perhaps, or ill will, with a family member, whatever it is. And it just doesn’t let you alone, the mind just keeps going and going. You mentioned Christ, we could always go back to the house of our own home, yourself for a second, before it posts us out again, yeah, we may not be as divine. But we can always go back and go back and go back. And when I work with people here know that conditioning can be so thick. I mean, we’ve lived in it 24 hours a day, with people trying to make us into modern people, from the time we were born, until the time we left, really, it’s been moved out. So even if there was no talking going on the conditioning was present, how they felt about you how you felt about yourself, what you think of the possibilities of, you know, what you can have and can’t have, they’re already ingrained in the person. And they’re not helping the person at all. They’re keeping the person limited and locked in to who they think they are. So I would say leaving it is not so simple. Leaving that very limited point of view is a difficult thing, it can be a miraculous thing. Even for example, let’s say your life is going well. You know, you don’t want to leave that. Well, if your life isn’t going well. You might be working on it so hard so that you make it better that you can’t leave it that. So where’s the opportunity to just stop and be yourself? It takes a lot of I would say presence to do that.

Rick Archer: Yeah, but there’s something inherently gratifying about doing it isn’t there? I mean, when you sit in silence with those people and your thoughts on that, and the people, some of whom have driven two hours to get there. There’s something so sweet and blissful about that experience that, you know, you don’t have to force them into it, they just fall into it. And so it’s really a matter of providing providing oneself with the opportunity to drop in like that, isn’t it?

Stuart Schwartz: Very much. So

Rick Archer: yeah.

Stuart Schwartz: Many people are like that. So Lauren’s some people have, you know, a lot of things to work through. Yeah. And they can be very difficult. And the more they do, the deeper it seems to get. And I think that well, the only thing that I could ever see in my life, we can get back if you want to know how I got there. Because as much as I’m talking about the conditioning, you can see that there was an awful lot there. And I worked on it an awful lot. And I tried so many different things. You mentioned Lester, and I think I was with Lester for 20 years.

Rick Archer: Did I mention that before we actually started the recording? I don’t remember that theory referring to Lester Levinson. Oh, was that before might have been? Yeah. So let’s just dive in. And tell us a bit about last year and your experience with them.

Stuart Schwartz: Let me remember back it was quite a while ago? Well, let’s do Levinson had a his his theme was that you could have or do or be anything that you will or desire, which sounded pretty good to somebody that was in a rough, rough spot in their life. And in a way he took me under his wing and listened. And he told me, this I thought was really funny. He told me in the midst of all of this hardship of where my life was that I would help a lot of people. So I said to myself, I’m never going to look at this guy again, because he doesn’t know what he’s talking. That’s just not the truth. But obviously, he saw something and he shared it. So I have very fond memories of last year. And his his technique that he developed. But as I kept working with it and teaching others this method, it was like we were always looking for the next thing that we could release and then get to the silence. You know, silence was the reward. And at a certain point, I sat with Robert Adams. You know, Robert

Rick Archer: I’ve not personally but sure, yeah, I’ve read some of his books. And I’ve interviewed one or two people who were with him. Yeah.

Stuart Schwartz: Yeah. So when I sat with Robert, he turned everything around. And he said, You only are the Self, and everyone is the Self. And there’s nothing you can do about it, your pure consciousness. And everything that you’re seeing is an emanation of your mind. So stop thinking so much, and go back to who you are. That was like such a revelation to just hear that. And to actually try and dissolve that all that effort to make things better, and to get rid of things to get to yourself was just a different direction. That wasn’t really the truth.

Rick Archer: Yeah,

Stuart Schwartz: you are that you always have been that everybody is that and not knowing it, without believing it?

Rick Archer: Well, let’s say you’re in a dark room, and you can’t see hardly anything in there. And you start making all kinds of efforts to get rid of the darkness, you know, pushing it out the corner, moving it around analyzing it, you know, thinking about it, bemoaning its existence. But then being afraid of it, yeah, being afraid of it, then you just flick on a light switch. And all of a sudden, where’d it go? You know, there’s there’s no darkness here. So you just added a second element, rather than trying to get rid of the first element.

Stuart Schwartz: You woke up?

Rick Archer: Yeah. That sounds like the distinction between the two approaches you took?

Stuart Schwartz: Yeah, but one took a very long time.

Rick Archer: Yeah.

Stuart Schwartz: And then coming from a Master who understood and lived the experience of knowing he was the Self. And that’s the truth. And everything else is some kind of a story on top of it, that’s taken as the truth. And, you know, do you remember a few months ago, when that German wings plane,

Rick Archer:  Oh yeah

Stuart Schwartz: headed into the mountains?

Rick Archer: Sure.

Stuart Schwartz: So if we look at that as being in a dark room, here’s a relative situation where there’s going to be a lot of new changes, as far as those doors and who can be in and who can be out. And also, psychological testing for people that are, we’re giving this much credibility to trust. So on the relative level, you know, it’s a tragedy. And there’ll be an awful lot of insurance claims and horror. And then if we look at the people that were on that flight youngsters, on school excursions, infants, innocent opera singers going to see Germany and then to the Met in New York, I mean, it’s all the trajectory of the relative life, everything going alone, just the way it’s supposed to be. Newlyweds, everything to look forward to. And it’s over. In one moment, it’s all over. And if you really look at that, on a relative level, it’s a tragedy on every level. And yet, when we look at things like that, it can change lives, so that people start to look in different directions, because they’re forced to, you know, they’re shattered, their lives are shattered, talk about a death. It’s a whole mind process of what’s real, what’s expected, the whole trajectory of the life is changed. So that one incident will change families all the way around the world. Some people will start blaming God, others will turn to God. Because of that, some people will try to understand other people will, you know, condemn. But I wonder if you really look at some of the ways that people just kind of open up from something like that, you know, to really look at what this whole place that we’re in this whole life world, what is it? Is it what we think we’re supposed to be doing, you know, becoming somebody and having this which is happening, or to really get into? Who’s running the show? What is it that was supposed to know from this experience? What is it that’s real What is it that doesn’t stop? You know? So

Rick Archer: that’s interesting, you should say that. I kind of do that too with everything. I like to watch the news and you know, follow along with what’s going on in the world. But somehow all these events are stimuli for me to a deeper reflection, like, like, what you’re what you’re saying here. I don’t think things happen capriciously, or arbitrarily or meaninglessly. I think there’s a deep intelligence that pervades and orchestrates everything and, and that, you know, some people like the phrase, the world is my guru, you know, that there’s, there’s a lesson inherent in every event. small or large?

Stuart Schwartz: Do you feel that?

Rick Archer: I do. Yeah. Each moment, you know, the things that are happening in my personal life, and also things that are happening on the world scene, there’s, there’s, you know, some kind of cosmic drama playing out, and there’s wisdom inherent in it.

Stuart Schwartz: Do you feel like everybody that you see is reflecting something back to you about yourself?

Rick Archer: Yeah, to varying degrees. And, and depending upon how, you know, introspective or insightful me, me at every given moment, it’s not like I’m walking through the supermarket and getting waves and waves of meaning. But, but essentially, there’s always a flavor of that, to some degree, sometimes much more profoundly than others.

Stuart Schwartz: A lot of people talk about that, like a mirror.

Rick Archer: Yeah,

Stuart Schwartz: everything you see is mirroring back something about yourself, either consciously or unconsciously, for you to see,

Rick Archer: I really think it is. And the underlying principle to that, in my opinion, is that, you know, there’s a deep evolutionary force that governs the universe, it’s like the universe is one big evolution machine. And so there’s a flow or direction to our life, that everything serves in some way. Everything that we experience in life is not just, it’s the world is not just billiard balls randomly running into each other. There’s, there’s an intelligence on every level, again, from larger than largest to smaller than the smallest. And you can see it if you look at any kind of scientific phenomenon, like what happens inside a cell, or how your liver works, or, you know, the gravitational interactions of asteroids in the asteroid field is everything is perfectly governed by again, the word miraculous, because we don’t fully understand it, but profound laws of nature, nothing is arbitrary, nothing is accidental.

Stuart Schwartz: Few think that we believe it, that we live by that understanding as a culture.

Rick Archer: Only fractionally, you know,

Stuart Schwartz: very fractionally

Rick Archer: very fractionally. And again, you were generalizing here, I think some people live by it very profoundly. And some people hardly at all, but as as a culture, in general, I think we’re way down on the 10% scale or something.

Stuart Schwartz: Yeah,

Rick Archer: yeah.

Stuart Schwartz: It’s really interesting, because scientifically, you describe that perfectly. It’s a fact that everything is run by a very intelligent universe, whatever it is,

Rick Archer: yeah,

Stuart Schwartz: that’s way beyond our little minds understanding of ’cause the mind is really concerned mostly about that particular individual and what’s good for them.

Rick Archer: Yeah,

Stuart Schwartz: you know, it can’t even fathom that. But we can always tell that we’re in sync with it, or we’re not you know, we’re we’re out of sync with it. It’s very painful.

Rick Archer: Yeah,

Stuart Schwartz: with that intelligence,

Rick Archer: Mother Nature’s scrubbing behind our ear trying to clean up our act, you know,

Stuart Schwartz: and we don’t seem to get away with very much doing it and the more acute you get in you’re looking and you’re being very you know, clear about who you are. The slightest little infraction seems to be like, Oh, I see. Yeah, it was just comes into your head. Oh, that’s what was going on here. I wasn’t paying attention.

Rick Archer: That’s a very good point, I think is a very valuable one. It’s like you know, some people do horrendous things. And as Christ said, you know, forgive them father, they know not what they do. They’re oblivious to what they’re doing, and kind of just blindly blundering along. But you know, you get more fine tuned, and every little thing is nuanced, some subtly and others like this, you know, so When you’re driving a car, you know, you don’t make huge corrections on the highway or you go end up in the ditch, you’re constantly making these real subtle corrections and on almost unconsciously, and it keeps you on the road. So I think the kind of thing you’re referring to is like that where we just ended up just adjusting in a very subtle way to each, each moment and staying in tune with that intelligence that you and I have been discussing. not violating it egregiously.

Stuart Schwartz: Right. Do you feel like when you’re staying in touch with that intelligence, that you’re locked into the duality of right and wrong?

Rick Archer: No,

Stuart Schwartz: it’s different, isn’t it?

Rick Archer: Yeah.

Stuart Schwartz: What would you say the difference is?

Rick Archer: There’s well locked into duality of right and wrong. Firstly, the phrase locked in you, when you’re in tune like that you don’t feel like you’re locked into anything, there’s a sense of freedom. And the duality of right and wrong, I feel is that, you know, life is again much too again, the word nuanced that it’s not black and white, you know? And what is it that the, in the Aramaic or whatever from which the word sin is derived, has is an archery term, which actually means to miss the mark. And so and obviously, the word sin is associated with right and wrong, but there’s a sense of being on the mark, you know, a sense of, and it doesn’t necessarily can, her with human morality or, you know, the laws of the land, it’s more of a lot laws of God, we could say, a laws of nature, that one becomes attuned to, and kind of become becomes capable of, boy, I’m really talking a lot today. I’m grasping at a subtle concept here, but becomes attune to the impulses of intelligence that govern everything and acts in accordance with those impulses, and thereby does not violate them or, you know, create harm through one’s through one’s actions.

Stuart Schwartz: And in a way, if you really couldn’t violate it,

Rick Archer: right.

Stuart Schwartz: That’s what that’s what I was saying about the the, as, as a as a, as people locked into when I use the word locked into duality of right and wrong, you know, good and bad, or whatever it is, when you’re not in that. It’s like not being bound by any kind of rules whatsoever.

Rick Archer: Yeah,

Stuart Schwartz: and yet, well, you you’re using religious terms. So I’ll say it’s righteous.

Rick Archer: Yeah,

Stuart Schwartz: it’s good. Without trying,

Rick Archer: right.

Stuart Schwartz: That’s what I was. That’s what I was alluding to.

Rick Archer: I have a good friend, whom I interviewed a while back, who I’ve been corresponded with pretty regularly. And he was saying that some of the cruelest people he has known have been religious fundamentalists are zealots who just are absolutely certain of their correctness. You know, they know the truth. And they, they’ve got it and nobody else has it. You said in their personal lives, they’re often very cruel and harmful to others. And so, you know, I think that contrast with what you’re talking about where one is resting in presence, and there there isn’t a clinging to certainty and rightness and you know, my way or the highway, there’s a there’s a sensitivity to the deeper flow of intelligence, that courses through all of creation and alignment with that, and it just goes so far beyond the duality of right and wrong.

Stuart Schwartz: And everybody is, is that, essentially, when they could let their complete guard down, presenting themselves as a good decent human being? That is not even an issue anymore, right, then that sensitivity is allowed to show itself without any fear of reprimands. Yeah. Or judgments of any kind. And from that, something beautiful blossoms because then the true person is expressing themselves.

Rick Archer: Yeah.

Stuart Schwartz: And how happy Could you be to allow yourself to be just as you are, without any inhibition of how you’re supposed to be?

Rick Archer: Yeah. Which doesn’t mean you’re gonna rip your clothes off and go running down the street or do anything weird or crazy.

Stuart Schwartz: Well some do you know.

Rick Archer: Some do Yeah, in fact

Stuart Schwartz: Some feel that that’s freedom.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I remember St. Francis and Brother Sun, Sister Moon, you know, when he had his awakening, he took all his clothes off gave him to his father, I don’t want this anymore.

Stuart Schwartz: I don’t need this anymore. There was some people that feel very liberated naked.

Rick Archer: Yeah.

Stuart Schwartz: I don’t know, are you? Me particularly, but

Rick Archer: not particularly,

Stuart Schwartz: Not particularly

Rick Archer: not attached to it.

Stuart Schwartz: But it’s funny. So people feel like, you know, the freedom is about the personal freedom, that now I am free to do whatever I want, you know, it’s a personal thing.

Rick Archer: Yeah, but I don’t think that’s what you’re talking about. It’s like, not at all. Because if a person interprets what you’re saying superficially, you know, oh, I can just do whatever the heck I want. I’m free, you know, no restrictions, no, right and wrong. They can make a mess of things you’re talking about first, you know, be attuned to the deeper intelligence of nature. And then from that platform, perform action. And things will flow naturally

Stuart Schwartz: Yeah action just happens.

Rick Archer: Yeah, action happens.

Stuart Schwartz: Yeah, because everybody, like you say, everybody is the self and everybody has particular talents. And it would really be really nice. If people could allow themselves to express those talents without their own sense of limitation.

Rick Archer: Yeah. You’ve been around quite a few masters and teachers and so on. I don’t you haven’t enumerated them all. But haven’t you noticed that rather than being kind of bland or same old, same old in any way, they actually have these vivid personalities, you know, even though they’re kind of grounded in something which is universal and the same on its level, on their, on the level of their individual expressions. They’re just very colorful, generally, very, tend to be charismatic tend to be just kind of really full of life.

Stuart Schwartz: Many times yes.

Rick Archer:  Yeah.

Stuart Schwartz: Yeah. All inhibited.

Rick Archer: Yeah.

Stuart Schwartz: You know, this is how I am. This is what I’m doing. And, you know, there it is.

Rick Archer: Yeah.

Stuart Schwartz:  It’s like everybody has their purpose, I would say, you know, to express. I guess it’s very hard. You know, they say that you you do your homework, when you look at different people that you’re going to interview. And I was waiting for you to give me some kind of, well, who is this guy? Because I don’t see myself as others do.

Rick Archer: Yeah.

Stuart Schwartz: You know, and here you are you You know, you have your your impression.

Rick Archer: Well, my homework consists of reading their book, if they have one, and yours took about half an hour, because it has just these nice little aphorisms on one side of each page

Stuart Schwartz: I actually read my book the other day, because I had looked at it quite a while.

Rick Archer: Yeah. And then I listened to some recordings, usually, while I’m riding my bicycle, or cutting the grass or whatever, I just kind of get to know that person. And then I have a conversation with him. I don’t usually take a lot of notes or you know, write down a lot of questions or anything, I just kind of get a feel for the person and have a conversation. So that’s what my homework consists of.

Stuart Schwartz: It’s very, very admirable.

Rick Archer: Well, I don’t know about that. It’s just

Stuart Schwartz: I watched a couple of interviews with you. Also. I thought you’re pretty smart. You understand a lot of the black holes and stuff, things that I haven’t gotten into.

Rick Archer: Well that kind of stuff fascinates me.

Stuart Schwartz: I could see that.

Rick Archer: Yeah. I mean, I’m obviously not, I was a high school dropout. And, you know, then I, I learned to meditate and got back into school and got back into education more, but I wouldn’t consider myself some sort of intellectual by any means. As with you I, for a long time. Now, spirituality has really been my main interest.

Stuart Schwartz: And do you do anything besides this? Do you teach?

Rick Archer: No, I meditate. But I don’t teach. I did teach. I was a TM teacher for 25 years, but I haven’t done that a long time. And I just do this, this is kind of my, the active phase of my of my spiritual zeal.

Stuart Schwartz: Well, you reach so many people, you know,

Rick Archer: yeah,

Stuart Schwartz: it’s quite something

Rick Archer: which is gratifying. You know, that, that beautiful prayer by St. Francis, Lord, make me an instrument of your peace and whether there is, you know, this, let me so that and then it goes on and on. And I think we all have a tendency to want to be a conduit for any thing of value that we have experienced, you know, and that’s why you’re teaching, I would say so. And it’s as simple as like, you know, liking something on Facebook or telling somebody About some movies, so you want to share anything that you found to be a value. So that’s what you and I are both doing in our own ways

Stuart Schwartz: we’re doing it. And yet I had no idea, in my mind that this would be something that I would be doing with my life. You know, it wasn’t like, this is something I was going towards

Rick Archer: a long time ago,

Stuart Schwartz: a long time ago, I was going for happiness. Really?

Rick Archer: Yeah.

Stuart Schwartz: You know, I’ll take that. And whatever I have to do to get it, I’ll do that. And it’s kind of like, at a certain point, it was like, this is a fork in the road, I could go along with and be Stuart and do it he likes or get nudged and pulled and do that. And sometimes you say, yes. And sometimes you say, No.

Rick Archer: Well, you mentioned you weren’t getting much satisfaction out of the course you were taking.

Stuart Schwartz: Yes, that’s very true.

Rick Archer: Yeah.

Stuart Schwartz: I would say that. I’ll go back to what you were saying at the beginning to tell a little bit about the history if you if you want

Rick Archer: Sure.

Stuart Schwartz: Yeah. What I can remember from the time I was very little, was being somewhat in the background, seeing everything, but not participating very much, basically, not really wanting to be here. I couldn’t explain why. But it wasn’t the joy is kind of a thing. And there was an awful lot of tugging, pulling, Do this, don’t do that go out. I was very concerned to stay home and just be still, you know, very, very content. And then the conditioning started that was like, you know, some kind of battle, you should do this. You shouldn’t do that. And so there was a lot of resistance. I understand resistance. I can I can deal with it fully, because I lived it. I lived it fully.

Rick Archer: Are you Jewish?

Stuart Schwartz: Yes.

Rick Archer: Yeah. There’s that joke of in the Jewish tradition, when does a fetus become a human being when he graduated from medical school.

Stuart Schwartz: That’s right. I remember once, you know, with the extended family, at the Passover Seder, you know, so there’s one long table going from one end of the house to the other with every relative you’ve never seen to the whole year. And so it’s the ends of the meal, which comes hours later with this very orthodox. I remember my mother lamenting about my birth.

Rick Archer: Really?

Stuart Schwartz: Yes, she started in with how long it took, and it was a breech birth. Big Baby. So I think the resistance started.

Rick Archer: You didn’t want to get involved.

Stuart Schwartz: I didn’t want to come in. I didn’t want to be here. And it was a struggle, and it was difficult. And, and then we were off and running. I do remember, one of those modalities that I did was rebirthing.

Rick Archer: Oh, yeah.

Stuart Schwartz: You did that also?

Rick Archer: No, I haven’t. But I’ve interviewed somebody quite early in this series. What was her name? I don’t know, third or fourth one that I did. And she was really into that and talked about

Stuart Schwartz: Sandra somebody?

Rick Archer: Well, Sandra Glickman was one I don’t know if she did remember that.

Stuart Schwartz: Not GLICKMAN,

Rick Archer: there was a woman who is an artist and her name isn’t coming to mind. Maybe it will anyway, she she taught rebirthing. Yeah,

Stuart Schwartz: yeah. And I remember that, after that session, involves a lot of the breathing, but not in the simplicity that I’m looking at it now. But there was great joy. Out of the blue, something must have opened up. You know, it was just absolutely beautiful.

Rick Archer: Yeah.

Stuart Schwartz: And then the stuff started to come up again. And then I didn’t know what to do with it. So it was off and running. What’s next?

Rick Archer: Well, that brings up two points. One is, wouldn’t would you agree that pretty much every one in the world is looking for happiness, and yet, not finding it in the outward direction, or at least finding only sort of transitory happiness in the outward direction and ultimately, they’ve got to take recourse to this presence or silence that we’ve been talking about. And I forgot the second question. So go ahead and respond to that one.

Stuart Schwartz: You know, if appearances look good, right, everybody, you know, if you look around and life is pretty good. You have no reason to complain, right? It’s good. Everything is fine. You have enough money you have A good partner, everything is stopp complaining. It’s fine.

Rick Archer: Yeah.

Stuart Schwartz: But it isn’t, you can’t really explain it. And you can’t really say just go to the self and everything will be fine, because it’s not your experience.

Rick Archer: Everything’s kind of fine. Already Maharishi Mahesh Yogi used to say that the angels have no incentive for Enlightenment, because everything is so glorious, you know, they don’t want to close their eyes, they don’t want to go inward, that the world in which they live is just sublime as it is. So why bother with looking for more?

Stuart Schwartz: Yeah, but the more you go inside, the more you do the meditation that you’re talking about, then you’re aware with your eyes open, you’re consciously aware, I would say that’s the whole purpose of the teaching. purpose is to really once you get established to knowing who you are, so that you have the experiences of appearances, you have the minds dictates whatever it is, and you either listen, or you pay it no mind, or it gets softer. And then you have the awareness to be present, with your eyes open without having to go anywhere. Yeah. And your home, your open use see clearly.

Rick Archer: That’s what I was getting at earlier, when I was referring to maybe stockbrokers or something who, you know, were established in presence and yet engaged in this crazy dynamic activity. I think that’s very possible. And it doesn’t have to be a life of sort of withdrawal and seclusion and, you know, outward silence to have that inward silence.

Stuart Schwartz: I agree.

Rick Archer: Yeah.

Stuart Schwartz: And I’m sure and I don’t know very many of them. But I’m sure there are people running big corporations that are very, very still unclear and make decisions on the spot that are just right on, for the most part.

Rick Archer: Yeah. In fact that, you know, I would say that that’s actually a qualified, unnecessary qualification for someone running a big corporation or successful military general, or, you know, someone who has a lot of detail and complexity to deal with. If if their mind is sort of all scattered, and you know, not very comprehensive, not very silent, then it can be very comprehensive, it’s you can only focus on one little thing here, one little thing there and kind of get lost in the boundaries. But if it can maintain the silence, it can maintain comprehensiveness and take a lot of things into account and make the right decision.

Stuart Schwartz: And I don’t even know if I would say it’s silence so much. It just is.

Rick Archer: Yeah,

Stuart Schwartz: you’re fully alert,

Rick Archer: right

Stuart Schwartz:  fully alert, very clear, and very present.

Rick Archer: I thought of that second question I was going to ask, which is that? A lot of people find that when they begin to become present, or, you know, sit in meditation a lot, like maybe you do in your satsangs with people and stuff that you know, we talked earlier about it dissolving conditionings and so on. But that that dissolving process can be a bit uncomfortable or tumultuous things can start to kind of nail like a Pandora’s box thinking things can start to be released that were tidally repressed. So what in your experience? What’s your experience been with that perhaps personally and also as a teacher?

Stuart Schwartz: Well, it’s, it’s true what you say the deeper you go into yourself, the more you really excavating into what’s been suppressed for many years. And I could say that it would be necessary to suppress a lot of negativity because it’s not very welcome. Anger, negativity, despondency, all that stuff. There’s not much place for it. So we push it down. And it does come up. And it really depends on how strongly you actually believe that it’s possible to get through it. Because the more you think you are the person suffering, the more you’ll keep it suppressed. You won’t want to open it up, because there isn’t a trust that they can actually move out. There’s just a complete avoidance of that. So I would say it takes a very dedicated, strong person to stay on target, no matter what happens, knowing that even if it’s gonna get very dark and painful and a lot of it is messy and very impressive. That it will pass. Everything does. It may not feel like it’s passing fast enough, but it will pass. I really have A lot of well, I honor those people, you know, because I know how difficult it is. And I really am amazed at the people that don’t seem to have that same kind of problem. They just seem to be, you know, they look at things and they see it once or twice, and it’s gone. That’s in all of that. But many people, you know, when they’re suffering, it’s too painful. And it seems to be the same old thing. It’s the same pattern. Again,

Rick Archer: if a person doesn’t consider themselves to be particularly strong, or what was the other word you use dedicated or something, then would what would you say to them by way of encouragement? Can they become stronger and more dedicated through some practice or something?

Stuart Schwartz: Well, I would say, let’s say what would I say to somebody like that? What do I say? I bring them back to themselves as fast as I can. I remind them who they are. They are the self. I think that sometimes the ego gets such a strong pull on the disbelief that feels true that it has to be given a talking to about who you are,

Rick Archer: yeah,

Stuart Schwartz: you are always the self, the absolute. And you need to remind you to go through that. And that’s the kind of encouragement that’s necessary.

Rick Archer: Yeah.

Stuart Schwartz: And to just to let people know, that you understand, and it will pass.

Rick Archer: And that’s where a teacher can be valuable, I think, among other reasons, that you sometimes need that external encouragement.

Stuart Schwartz: And you have to allow yourself to say yes to whatever’s coming up, right. You can’t push it away, because it’ll come back. Yeah. I think that after a certain point, Rick, as I’m sure you’ve discovered the leverage between the ego and the self ships. And you lose interest, you actually lose interest in your own ego, self, and the other the self grows and grows so that it becomes easier and easier to see through that stuff. Yeah, it no longer runs here.

Rick Archer: Which brings up an interesting point, which is that some people have this understanding. And sometimes even the experience that Enlightenment or awakening is instantaneous, they just have this shift. And that’s it. However, I would consider that to be the exception rather than the rule. And in your own experience, was it any thing of that kind? Or has it been a sort of progressive thing, perhaps punctuated by occasional milestones that you know, are noteworthy?

Stuart Schwartz: Exactly what you said.

Rick Archer: Yeah.

Stuart Schwartz: A progressive shift with milestones. Yeah, sometimes very huge ones. You know, very powerful ones, and sometimes just beautiful awareness. Aha, yes.

Rick Archer: Yeah,

Stuart Schwartz:  look at that. And you know, something big is just dropped somewhere, somehow. And it’s gone. It’s fast.

Rick Archer: Would any of those milestones be interesting for people? Would you like to?

Stuart Schwartz: Tell them?

Rick Archer:  tell us a few things? Yeah.

Stuart Schwartz: Well, there was one that I talked about with Renata about hearing some kinds of news music that I had never heard of. There was a time I was in Rome. That’s what I was describing, very early on in the early 80s, where I just was determined to know what this freedom business was, you know, it was very rational, you No, I’m going to put my attention and energy into this. I want some clear understanding here. And whatever I have to do, I’ll do it. But I want some kind of understanding. And I was going after, what exactly is it that I don’t understand of what’s out there. And I had this magnificent awareness of reversal of everything. Everything hard, like buildings became very, very translucent. And this beautiful, beautiful music was like thrilling to me. And whenever I thought it couldn’t get better, it would. It was like, You can’t imagine how good This is get just get it through your head that there’s something magnificent going on here.

Rick Archer: And in music was just some kind of Inner Inner thing is some celestial coming from a local loudspeaker was coming from within you.

Stuart Schwartz: It was in my head,

Rick Archer: right, right.

Stuart Schwartz: It was in my head. It was my experience. It’s like I created it. I needed it. It answered something. It blew me away. It was just, I was happy. Like, I’ve never been happy for months after that. No matter what was going on, and lived life, we just continue. I know a lot of things changed after that. I know that. There was another incident when I was in India with Neelam  and Nirmala, and Pamela Wilson.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Oh, with Papaji

Stuart Schwartz: No, with Neelam

Rick Archer: Oh, Neelam was the teacher in that case?

Stuart Schwartz: Neelam was the teacher in that case,

Rick Archer: okay.

Stuart Schwartz: And we were up in Rishikesh. And we all had beautiful experiences there.

Rick Archer: Nice.

Stuart Schwartz: It was magnificent. Just being by the Ganges and meditating. And that was another wide open experience. There have been many, many like that.

Rick Archer: I think I hadn’t realized or I’d forgotten that. Pamela and Nirmala had studied with Neelam.

Stuart Schwartz: Nirmala, especially.

Rick Archer: He must have told me that I forgot. Cool, any others? It will actually, with regard to that one it was it’s kind of noteworthy and interesting that, that breakthrough, or if you want to call it that was preceded by a kind of a firm determination or an ardent desire, you know, to? I forget how you phrased it, but there was determined Yeah, there was just this, like, I gotta know, this, I gotta have this and kind of a focused seriousness, and then that kind of triggered a breakthrough.

Stuart Schwartz: It’s like, I was demanding it. Yeah. I really was demanding it. And I was saying to myself, alright, I’ll look at everything. I’ll let go, whatever, I have to let go. I’ll do whatever I have to do. Yeah. I mean, I was surrendering as determinately as I could. And something happened to blew me away. But then life went on, you know. I would say that. I was very, very lucky. With all my resistance, with all the hardship with all the stuff that I thought I would never get through. I was always lucky enough to have people who were very clear, particularly my friend, Kim Rolando, who would be a miracle if you could get her to be on your show. I don’t think she would I never heard of her. No, nobody asked for she’s very, very free. And we would sit and talk for hours. And I think it’s being with somebody that is so totally open and aware. I don’t know what it is. But everything is okay the way it is, even if it appears rotten. And you’ll get through everything. And I suppose I know that, that people trust that. So we plod along. And we allow everything to be the way it is, excuse me. And somehow it passes. It all passes.

Rick Archer: His stuff is contagious. You know. I mean, it’s so just hanging out with people who are fervent about about what we’re talking about is it definitely rubs off.

Stuart Schwartz: No doubt. No doubt.

Rick Archer: So did you have any moment? I mean, that was one you mentioned in Italy, but did I’m kind of of the opinion, having talked to so many people and all that. It’s almost impossible to define awakening, as you know, an absolute clear, cut definable moment that either you have had or haven’t had, there’s seems to but I may be wrong, but there seems to be so many flavors and nuances and degrees and stages of awakening. That and many people who have had awakenings that they think are the final one, end up having others that they realized so they realized the early ones were not final. So for you, what do you say about that? I mean, have you had was there some like major watershed moment for you? Or do there have there been many in their continued it’d be more.

Stuart Schwartz: You know, Rick, I just feel that as long as you’re in a body, there will be always something for you to learn and for you to see. And for you to be open to. It’s just that there’s less and less resistance to it and more and more awareness that whatever comes, nothing can touch, the open awareness that you are. It’s just that just that knowing that you’re present, you’re here. And everything can happen. And it’s fine. You’re safe. Yeah. You could say it’s the exact opposite of a person in the world looking for safety and practically everything that they do. The safety is right here in the moment. Because you are. And if you know that, what more could you ask for?

Rick Archer: Yeah. There was a security and in that,

Stuart Schwartz: though, I couldn’t define that security. But I could say that if you can feel it, and relax into it. Well, then your home. Maybe you could be more home? I don’t doubt that. I don’t doubt that I could be much more home. You know, when I looked at certain teachers, you know, they couldn’t find get the food on the fork into their mouth. They were so illuminated in you know, nothingness.

Rick Archer: Yeah.

Stuart Schwartz: I manage to eat very well. The fork finds my mouth. I wouldn’t say that’s the truth. It may be. I don’t know.

Rick Archer: Yeah. I mean, Neem Karoli. Baba are under my mind, you know, hear stories about them having to be fed and having to be kind of watched less they wander off into the jungle, you know, because they’re just so oblivious to their bodies.

Stuart Schwartz: It just becomes a lot more pleasant than I imagined that would be. Yeah, you know. And I allow him, like I said before, to go on with his following to whatever degree he wants to, you know, he’s fine, even if he isn’t? Because it’s not me. Yeah, and that is me. And that sounds a little cryptic. But that’s how I say it.

Rick Archer: That was actually the point with which we started this interview that, you know, I brought up the word paradox, that, you know, you are a person, and yet you’re not a person. And the two somehow coexist quite, quite comfortably when, when the integration is really established.

Stuart Schwartz: Well, if you meet a person that’s totally identified as a person, they will see me as a person, right? If I meet somebody who knows who they are, that’s what they’ll relate to with me. You know, that’s okay. Either way. Yeah. So make the difference.

Rick Archer: And also, you’re still the person. I mean, if I were eating dinner with you, and you said, Hey, Rick, pass the salt. I wouldn’t, you know, say, Well, who wants the salt? Or, you know, there is no salt or I’d pass you the salt, you know,

Stuart Schwartz: pretty irritated.

Rick Archer: Stewart, the person wants the salt. Okay, here we go.

Stuart Schwartz: Did you think there were gonna be questions?

Rick Archer: There is one one just came in from a man named Krishna in Calicut. India. He asks, I have been practicing meditation and chanting for some years now. However, in recent times, I have been experiencing some kind of burning sensation in the throat, medical checks don’t show anything. However, when I’m in when I’m deep in meditation, this goes off. And he comments on this?

Stuart Schwartz: Well, he had the answer, right in this question. What was apparent in his life, the deep burning, disappeared. It disappeared because his attention was in on the person trying to change it. He was before that. So there was no semblance of it sounds like there was no semblance of barley.

Rick Archer: Well, I think what he’s saying though, is that when he meditates this burning sensation. Let’s just see. Well, it doesn’t say that it’s happened. Yes, when I am okay. He says it goes off by that. I didn’t know whether he meant it starts burning or it stops burning. It wasn’t clear to me. Christian, you can send in another question if you want. But um, so I guess we’re asking here. Does this burning intensify when you meditate and go into the self or does it does it dissipate? Not sure. Go ahead and send in a follow up if you want Okay, so, all right, let’s, let’s, uh, chit chat just for another minute. Well, Krishnan sends in another question if he wants to, or anybody else, What haven’t we considered that you would like to make sure that we do consider before we wrap it up? But is there that’s really dear to your heart, or that you really want people to hear leave them some thought you want to leave them with or anything along those lines?

Stuart Schwartz: Oh, that’s a very big open, it gives you all possibilities, possibilities, and how to zero in on the most perfect. Yeah. Yeah. The beauty, the absolute beauty of being yourself as natural and, and simple. Without a lot of pontification about philosophy and existing and not existing. And allowing yourself to flower and to be happy. It’s just right there. And it’s so possible.

Rick Archer: And for the person who says, Hey, that sounds great. But that’s not my experience. How do I get to be where you are in terms? And how do I get to live life the way you’re describing it?

Stuart Schwartz: Be open, to really questioning the truth of everything that you’re feeling, and taking it as gospel, to allow it to stop, to allow yourself to leave that to not be so connected and attached to well, wanting it to be different. And being right about it. takes a certain amount of desire for it, don’t you think? Yeah. And openness.

Rick Archer: And something you just said really rings a bell to I’ve heard humility described as the quality of not insisting that things happen any particular way. And when you think of humility as being a sort of a way of functioning, which is not ego predominant, you know, but which in which the ego has sort of relaxed, its, its grip, and, you know, not insisting that things happen. Any particular way you allow that larger intelligence that we’ve been alluding to, to run the show, and actually is capable of running it a lot more efficiently than then our individual intelligence.

Stuart Schwartz: Well, you know, we’re all consciousness, right? Everything is consciousness. But if you say that this vast consciousness is now going to be just who I see myself as my mind, my body, I’m limiting that consciousness to like, the size of a pea, right? And then it’s all my responsibility for things to turn out the way I want them to or not. And then I suffer or I don’t, you know, I mean, it’s like, I’m setting a trap for myself. Yeah. So if I just see that clearly that the consciousness is wide open. And I can enter into that, rather than limited, it’s a possible thing to do. And I’m going to say one more time, always go back to examining what it feels like to breathe. Something so very simple. If you actually just spend some time watching it, put it in slow motion, watching the whole process. It will bring you home very, very swiftly. Set awareness before thought.

Rick Archer: And you were saying earlier that when you advocate this to people, and then sometimes when you talk to them later, they say, Oh, well, I forgot to do it. But um, would you recommend that people reserve a little bit of time, 1015 minutes or something where they just sit down in a quiet room and just dwell on that let that be their sole focus for a while?

Stuart Schwartz: Well, I wouldn’t say that would be a bad thing where I don’t usually tell people that they should do at any period of time or or when, but as much as they can, yes, yeah. Yeah. Because I have found that it is so powerful, so powerful, it’s totally alive, because if you look at it, we talked about the self is unconditional love, right? Completely unconditional love. So who can create life through the breath? Only that which is the one or God and it is given to absolutely everything that’s alive, insects Hello most people, people in jail people convicted of major crimes, breath. Holy People breath in between people, people that believe in that belief. Everybody gets it 100% It’s given from absolutely nothing. It’s giving you life. Here it is. It’s your gift. And without it, you can’t do it. Nothing. You can’t think you can’t move, you can’t do anything. And we’re not really honoring it. So I think it’s about time we did. Because it’s giving us

Rick Archer: everything. Nice, you know. And you certainly don’t have to buy into any particular philosophy or have any particular intellectual capacities or anything else, too.

Stuart Schwartz: It’s kind of like a secret. It’s being exposed. Yeah. And it’s quite something. You know, Here’s your gift. You are alive and you are conscious. Enjoy it. Feel it.

Rick Archer: Good. All right. Well, Krishna didn’t send in a follow up question. So maybe we’ll hopefully we answered that one.

Stuart Schwartz: Maybe we do.

Rick Archer: Oh, wait a minute. Here comes.

Stuart Schwartz: We did.

Rick Archer: This is from a fellow in Wales. Oh, this is he’s a guy named Ramat from Wales says he doesn’t have a question. You just very much looking forward to seeing you in London soon. Love, love, love.

Stuart Schwartz: Ramat?

Rick Archer: Robot. You know, remotes

Stuart Schwartz: Oh it’s a woman. Yes.

Rick Archer: Oh, robot. Yeah. Have a camp. She’s happy that you’re coming to London.

Stuart Schwartz: She’s lovely. Yes.

Rick Archer: Great. Good. Well, you’re lovely to this has been a good conversation.

Stuart Schwartz: Nice talking to you. You’re great.  Oh, thanks.

Rick Archer: There’s some quote that kept coming to mind during your whole talk today, which I think I just want to throw out there. It’s a Sanskrit saying, and I forget the Sanskrit but the the English of it is, there is no joy in smallness.

Stuart Schwartz: That’s very nice.

Rick Archer:  Yeah.  Yeah. So however, the theme of our conversation has touched upon that a number of times. Yeah. Great. Well, let’s just wrap it up, then. I’ve been speaking with Stuart Schwartz. And obviously, he lives in Florida and has weekly Satsang is down there. But he travels and it sounds like he’s going to London soon. So I’ll be making to his website. And you can see what his schedule is on there, I’m sure. And also, we have a page on batgap.com, which is like a geographic index where you can put a particular place and like London, and it’ll pop down a list of people I’ve interviewed who are going to be teaching in London, and then you can go from there to their website to get the details.

Stuart Schwartz: It’s beautiful. And after that, excuse me, there’ll be Satsang at the castle or Hello castle in Ireland,

Rick Archer: Great.

Stuart Schwartz: We’ve been going for about 10 years.

Rick Archer: Cool.

Stuart Schwartz: That’ll be after.

Rick Archer: Cool, and any other places are you just going to the UK,

Stuart Schwartz: UK and Ireland.

Rick Archer: So go to Stuart site. And you can if you’re in the UK or Ireland and you can check the dates on that. This as I said in the beginning is an ongoing series of interviews, we have them scheduled next several months now, the next next week is a fella named Wayne weirs, who happens to live in a little van or something and travels around the country. He didn’t know where he was going to be when I interviewed him. But he has a really good 4g connection with this with this laptop. So wherever he is, that’s where we’re going to do it. And there are, as I mentioned, there are several 100 of these. And you can find them all archived and organized and categorized on batgap.com. And we intend to keep doing them for a long, long time. So what few other things you find in batgap.com, just go through them real quickly place to sign up for email notification of new new interviews, a link to the audio podcast of this show, which we’ve been having some technical difficulties with, but we’re working on getting them fixed. And donate button. And as it’s about it, explore the menus. So thanks for listening. You’re watching thank you again Stuart. It’s been a lot of fun.

Stuart Schwartz: Thank you very much

Rick Archer: Really enjoyed it.

Stuart Schwartz: I enjoyed it.

Rick Archer: I’m sorry. I’ve talked too much. I feel like I was a little gabby today

Stuart Schwartz: You did fine

Rick Archer: And everybody should should check out Stephen Wright.

Stuart Schwartz: That’s right. It’ll make you laugh.

Rick Archer: Yeah. And if you want a really weird comedian who’s also very funny checkout, Emo Philips you ever hear of EMO Philips?

Stuart Schwartz: I have. Yes,

Rick Archer: he’s hilarious. All right. Thanks a lot.

Stuart Schwartz: Thank you, Rick

Rick Archer: Bye bye

Stuart Schwartz: bye bye.