126. Igor Kufayev, 2nd Interview

Igor KufayevThis is my second interview with Igor. The first one is here. The first interview covers Igor’s personal spiritual journey in detail. In this second interview, we discuss questions inspired by the first interview.

An artist and healer by nature, Igor has been sharing his revelations into the essence of Being since 2002. His approach, in the form of intimate gatherings, silent transmissions and private correspondence, is based on spontaneous and intuitive insight which allows him to empathize with uniqueness of each individual conditioning.

Igor Kufayev was born in Tashkent, Uzbekistan. In his childhood he had many episodes associated with awakening. At the age of thirty six Igor underwent a radical transformation of consciousness which subsequently blossomed into spontaneous unfoldment of Grace.

Since April 2011, Igor and his family have been based in Costa Rica. He continues working with those who require guidance using various forms of communication.

Other BatGap events with Igor:

Interview recorded 6/9/2012

Interview transcript

Video and audio below. Audio also available as a Podcast.

135 thoughts on “126. Igor Kufayev, 2nd Interview

  1. My favorite part of this interview was right at the end… in particular his description of ‘the most direct experience’ starting around 2:16:00 and goes until 2:25:00…

    short transcription below:
    The most direct experience of that. Unfortunately not often pleasant, and I’ll give you an example … something that takes your breath away, and you skip a heart beat…

    Instantaneously when that tremor happens, you feel Shiva IN your Heart.. You feel it as directly and as palpably as anything.. but it lasts so short.. that it is immediately overshadowed (by your mental reactions)…
    … you hear that sound straight here (pointing to heart) it’s a physical sensation… But these moments are always overshadowed because our subordination of responses are so fluid, that it literally floods over this initial ‘WOW’ physical sensation..

    It happens when something terrifying happens.. because it strips us bare… faculties they fail to act in time.. and we experience that first…

    This was an amazing and accurate description of what a real ‘Direct Experience’ is really like… it’s below and before the witness consciousness that many teachers keep harping on about….

    I wonder how many others out there really ‘get’ what he’s describing here…

  2. I’m glad we were able to broach some awkward subject matter with this interview, all too often the darker or more ‘base’ elements of human existence are glossed over in spiritual circles.

    When I caught my previous Master anally penetrating a goose whilst slamming its head in a drawer I was horrified, however that was just my ignorance and pre-judgement. He explained that he was simply working off his vasanas prior to his final awakening.

    Seems funny to think about it now that what society would view as perverted was actually crucial for my Master’s Enlightenment. I have learnt that in matters concerning awakened masters you should never judge a book by its cover!

  3. I think that the greatest challenge to civilization today is the mindset we carry – We are being challenged at every turn to let go of the old ways of thinking – and accept the new paradigm..particularly the spiritual one..This is critical to the next stage of human evolution…….Just because we’ve always believed something, doesn’t make it true..

    The old spiritual mindset was that things take time – that we should progress more slowly, be ever more prepared, and be wary of the offer of quick results…

    But we are living in extraordinary times now, and we are more prepared than we think..What is arising is coming out of the one Heart’s longing for God and the need of our time…

    It’s a time where things can change in an instant..where all things are possible – and a life can be transformed or healed without climbing the mountain step by step..

    Grace is here now extending its hand…It’s a gift that instantaneously unfolds when you just open to receive it..and it is the gift that keeps on giving..

    As a doctor/engineer whose life has been transformed by the likes of Braco, said in an interview recently,
    “We have a wrong understanding of cause and effect, it’s old thinking – that for everything there is a cause and so on..but that’s only for natural science to make steam engines and electronics, but not for our personal lives…Something can change immediately on the human level..I’ve seen it and experienced it…If time is taken out of the equation, linear thought is taken out of the equation, and now anything is possible in a spontaneous moment..”

    The transmission of unconditional Love that is being offered to the world now, and that is calling us Home – through many Eyes – only takes a slight turn of the mind toward it to receive it..a leap of faith; a surrender of old concepts; along with an inner knowing that humanity as a multifaceted jewel has struggled long enough, and this is our time to fly..


  4. @Jill
    ref: “Just because we’ve always believed something, doesn’t make it true..”
    I totally agree with this..

    And I think all of that other stuff you shared is simply your personal opinion and belief which you aggressively hold onto and continue to work towards getting others to believe the same…

    ref: “I think that the greatest challenge to civilization today is the mindset we carry – We are being challenged at every turn to let go of the old ways of thinking – and accept the new paradigm..particularly the spiritual one..This is critical to the next stage of human evolution.”

    Notice how you started your comment with “I think”.. which means you are sharing only a thought, a concept, an opinion.. not necessarily a truth… nor would it necessarily be true for everyone, or any particular person…

    Though I am absolutely sure there are many who may share the same beliefs and agree with you.. and enjoy how all those words sound beautiful on the surface..
    But to me, it feels like you are trying to make a point that is quite counter to what Igor’s point of view he discussed in this interview.

    It might be helpful if you could address why you think his point of view is incorrect, how he might be mistaken, and also why you think your view is more accurate or correct…
    I don’t think Igor was saying to “Not Judge” teachers, Rick oversimplified the message to that. I think he was pointing people to trust their own intuition to discern about how authentic or useful a teacher may be to them.

    Also he probably didn’t want to get into a public accusation or generalized judgement of a particular teacher or type of behavior… As that is premature without all the information, and also easily misunderstood and misquoted….

    But.. that’s just my take from what I heard..

  5. “a new paradigm”…? or a embodied, organic spirituality – repressed, mocked, dismissed (maya as cosmic ilusionism) – emerging to the foreground of collective consciousness…?

    “… the energetic origins of Hatha-Yoga and meditation – which trace back in this era at least to the Pashupata spontaneous movement rituals (100-700 C.E.)…”

    “In order to view physical Yoga and meditation as just endogenous to our development (and as awesome) as gestation once was, as taking one’s first post-umbilical breath, as adolescent puberty, we must deconstruct the over-formalized pedagogical edifices that have grown around it.
    Both indigenously over the ages and in their translation and importation into the West, the “innately arising” (sahaja), panentheistic, Dionysian origins of Yoga and meditation have been shaped and over-shaped into apollonian pedagogical constructs and otherwise tamed and over-tamed to avoid real or imagined dangers.

    The moral sentiments (yama and niyama) and their mercies became mere rules of the rigid-mandatory, or lip-service varieties. The grace of sequence and consequence of karma was “mechanicalized” into an arch-law, in contrast to the Dionysian teachings that the Divine Power is independent of “karmic laws.” The mysterious flow of lineage stiffened into the rigidities of caste, also in contrast to the Dionysian rejection of caste prejudice and the “crazy wisdoms” that ridicule it.

    The reverentially ecstatic “Dance of Shiva, Lord of Yogis,” became stylized in public rituals, “classical” music and dance, and in the overly formalized yogic asanas themselves, or withered in the severe asceticisms of the fakir. By the second century C.E., Patanjali’s dualistic, “classical” Yoga-Sutra had formalized an over-separation between Nature (prakriti) and ultimate Subjectivity (purusha), thus “rejecting the idea that the world is an aspect of the Divine” (Georg Feuerstein, Yoga: The Technology of Ecstasy, p. 412).
    Stuart Sovatsky

  6. You are quite right Valentino – The view here is different than Igor’s and from most yogis..who steadfastly hold that time and relentless practice and esoteric knowledge is needed for Realization…

    Igor and I had the same guru for half our lifetimes and are simpatico in many ways, but in the years since, I’ve moved beyond the idea that climbing the spiritual ladder step by step is necessary for a true awakening…Life has shown me something different..

    Even sages can disagree as Igor pointed out to me after his last interview, and of course we all know there’s a ‘way’ for everyone, so they should always follow their heart in choosing a teacher and a path.

    That being said, my role as a teacher coming on the site, is to point out to people who may have been journeying for eons and not yet out of suffering – or those just starting out – that something is available now -a Grace – a Love – an open portal to the Infinite -that wasn’t available before in earlier eras in such radiant fullness…and that perhaps so much preparation is not as necessary anymore…

    As my teacher Pamela Wilson is fond of saying – ‘the austerities have all been done for us – now it’s time to step up and claim freedom as our birthright.’

    This observation that I am making, and other teachers have as well – is based on steadiness of Self over a long period of time, and because we’ve seen so many awaken over these past 20 years and walk through that door – just by being innocent and openhearted – and in contact with Silent Mind -that it seems obvious to us, that we’ve moved into an entirely different era..

    Just this site alone is filled with people who have spontaneously awakened..sans any long term prep..I’m sure you’ve noticed this from listening to the interviews or reading the posts – happening every day –

    Some might argue that these are not ‘full bodied’ realizations but I beg to differ….I know many of the non-dual teachers personally – have brought them to the site in fact..There are also amazing healings going on in the world as well..sans the medical model..We are all going to have to adjust our ideas of what is possible in the coming days..

    Anyway, to each his own – many ways of getting to California from NYC- there are trains and buses and cars, and then there’s that new fangled thing we call the jet plane.. 🙂

    PS Just for the record, using personal pronouns as in I think or I feel, is not an indication of a personal point of view..would be pretty hard to communicate without them wouldn’t you say? Maybe if you tried listening to the Silence behind the words, things wouldn’t be so confusing…

    Wishing you well always..

  7. @Jill

    I’d normally spend some time to reflect and address your comments at a future date… but due to busy schedule, I’ll reply now…. But my comments may be a bit emotionally charged…. so be warned… but they are still only words, concepts, thoughts….
    REF: “That being said, my role as a teacher coming on the site, is to point out to people who may have been journeying for eons and not yet out of suffering – or those just starting out – that something is available now -a Grace – a Love ”

    This explains a lot… you see your ‘Role’ as a teacher here.. not as a peer… but is Batgap set up for a particular teacher or point of view to be promoted? or
    is the comment section supposed to be to have ‘one point of view’ constantly reinforced over others?

    REF: “PS Just for the record, using personal pronouns as in I think or I feel, is not an indication of a personal point of view..would be pretty hard to communicate without them wouldn’t you say? Maybe if you tried listening to the Silence behind the words, things wouldn’t be so confusing…”

    Hmm… if your personal pronoun isn’t referring to You and your opinion… are you saying that you are speaking for the truth? are you speaking from the absolute view? consciousness/witness state?

    In my experience, research, and opinion.. The absolute point of view doesn’t speak or say anything. That’s why it’s called ‘SILENCE’. I interpret that silence as being impersonal, without any particular opinion or point of view. Silence simply doesn’t care about people’s suffering.

    …… as for your dismissive jab about my confusion….. It’s really amazing to see how you can often throw in one-upsmanship, dismissiveness, condescension, passive aggressiveness, ad hominem personal attacks into your conversation, but make it sound so flowery and pretty….

    When I get confused, I am actually focusing and spending lots of time to reflect on what you say, don’t say… dissecting assumptions behind your positions.. remembering patterns of past comments… noticing what you comment about and what you totally ignore or mis-read…. but mostly I rely on my empathy, I dig deep and try to feel the emotions behind what you say… and I often find that it’s mostly just extreme and exhaustive pain… (That is one of the main reasons I get confused when reading your replies, but I wanted to try to stay on discussion, instead of getting into personal attacks)

  8. there’s something I don’t get…isn’t Shakti one with Shiva…? why then that extremely dualistic “nondual” attachment…and revulsion of the dynamic side of the Absolute…?
    yeah, more and more deja vus of “Life of Brian”… ; )

    “The sacred is often imaged as an “ocean” while the individual is a “drop” whose destiny is to return to or merge with the ocean. A drop, though, can do things that an ocean cannot. An ocean, for example, cannot become a teardrop shape. If one says that the individual seek the Unity the way drops seek the ocean, it could equally be said that through evaporation, the ocean seeks to become drops and the Unity seeks to become individual. Which is the true destination or destiny? One could imagine a Monthy Python type rendition of this, a la “Life of Brian”, in which one faction seeks to follow the drop while the other seeks to follow the ocean! In my own experience, neither “drop” nor “ocean” fully capture the Mystery of the Sacred, nor for that matter the Mystery of Self. Mystery is accessible from both the “drop” state and the “ocean” state… One is not choosing between the drop or the ocean, the self or the no-self, the particle or the wave, the personal or the transpersonal. Each needs to be honored and seen in paradoxical partnership in order to attune to what is neither drop nor ocean, but rather the Mystery behind both…
    Sovereignty, as I use it, represents a middle ground, so between the drop and the ocean, the individual and the Wholeness,the one and the Oneness…
    To me…sacredness does not ride around within us as some separate entity but rather it is we. Our bodies and minds are part of the sacred. I tend to think of the sacred more as an activity than a thing. The well known “God is a Verb” image first suggested by Buckminster Fuller comes to mind.
    I think of standing in Sovereignty as standing more mindfully in the activity of sacredness, such as openness, holding, love, compassion, etc.”

    David Spangler

  9. Thank you Uli – beautifully expressed. As I see it, Absolute Truth is Absolute. Nothing excluded, even nothing: even untruth. Paradoxical for sure. The very Mystery of it All.

  10. This was a full on very interesting and mesmerising talk.As a yoga teacher It was amazing to listen to what I normally read in books and it makes it all come to life for me so much. Thank you form my heart. I really do get what you say about the heart stopping for that brief millisecond! and how it’s just looked over not realising how profound it is.
    love Roisin

  11. I hear where you’re coming from Valentino – hear the frustration behind the words- and I only wish you well on your journey…sorry we’re not connecting..

    Anger is more than acceptable here…no problem..and glad I could be of help in evoking that emotion..it makes for great self-inquiry..cause we all carry it generationally and collectively…

    I wrestled with it for a long time, along with fear and sadness and all the other strong emotions..The Kundalini over a 20 year period brought them all to the forefront of awareness..What a gift…

    I found they are layered within the human system..like nesting cups…Right underneath anger is sadness – then fear – then utter despair..The good news is that if we are willing to keep going deeper and drop through each one -we get to the source of Self which is our Nature – pure joy..

    In any case, if you don’t resonate with any of these words or hear the Self speaking – you are free to throw it all out..also not a problem..

    Just one last thought though, to clarify – Silence is not the mere absence of words.. The Silence I’m speaking of cares very much about people’s suffering…It doesn’t have expectations as to outcome when it speaks, but it cares deeply..The Absolute isn’t heartless..far from it…

  12. Magnificent!
    For me personally, Igor is the most powerfully impressive interviewee I’ve seen so far on your program, Rick. He reminds me of what I feel from Maharishi’s master, Swami Brahmananda Saraswati with whom I feel very, very deeply connected. Igor’s words and ‘presence’ display that same kind of fully developed spiritual integrity that really comes from the heart and penetrates.
    Thanks so much to both of you.

  13. “Taking Time out of the equation”…? (that has been the “old spiritual mindset”…till now… )

    “In the Spiritual pole there is complete fusion of Time and Consciousness which we experience as Timelessness, or undifferentiated Time. In this state Time-energy vibrates at such an intense rate that is appears static and thereby lacking any element of periodicity or denseness….In the less dense planes all is more fluid, but, at the same time, a certain element is lost which is the most precious gift of our material universe. Here we actually progress, we evolve, we develop, we grow—because we are conscious of Time in its densest aspect.”
    Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet

  14. Dennis Taylor:
    Can you explain further what you were referring to in your previous comment. It went over my head I think. Mind you, I haven’t finished listening to the interview yet.

  15. Rick:
    Hi, just wondering, with these two videos you posted, is it a neutral addition or do they suggest something to you one way or another? Also, not to get you in trouble, but Im curious what your sense of Igor is. Of course, I understand if you’d rather not comment.

  16. Jill:
    It’s interesting to see how certain people get triggered when you speak directly from Truth, and even with speculative talk such as the future spiritual evolution direction. Is it because they are feeling challenged, they don’t sense you are the real deal, conflict with other beliefs…..Perhaps all of the above and more. Anyway, always nice to see your posts here.

  17. Heat Seeker:

    I was trained to teach Transcendental Meditation by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi in 1970. In fact I attended the same teacher training course that Rick attended. Swami Brahmananda Saraswati left his physical body in 1953.

  18. @Heat Seeker. I haven’t even watched the videos. Igor asked me to post them, because he thought he wouldn’t be able to, but if he produces more, he’ll post them. I like Igor. Otherwise I wouldn’t have invited him for a 2nd interview.

  19. John:
    Ok thanks for that.
    Have you ever met Igor before? Seems like you really resonate with him.

  20. Heat Seeker:

    I’ve never met Igor before. And yes, as I said: He reminds me of what I feel from Maharishi’s master, Swami Brahmananda Saraswati with whom I feel very, very deeply connected. Igor’s words and ‘presence’ display that same kind of fully developed spiritual integrity that really comes from the heart and penetrates.

  21. i appreciate Igor’s generosity in sharing very valuable… eternal knowledge… sanatana dharma… from genuine experiences… Igor is definitely one of a kind… in many respects… probably… if time & circumstances allow… with God’s Grace… he will be making additional follow up videos to questions that time did not allow…

    God is Omnipresent as Love…

  22. In my words: you can find “nonduality” teachings in all the wisdom lineages (including shamanism…could it be other way with authentic “integral” spirituality…? see “Yanantin and Masintin in the Andean World: Complementary Dualism in Modern Peru”, Hillary Webb).
    The more listen and dig into the sharings of some so-called contemporary “nondualists”, the more I’m under the impression of incredibly hard-headed dogmatism and extreme otherworldly dualism,…confounding simplicity with simpletoness, lost in a haze of predictible nihilism…having reduced the depth of perennial teachings into a MacDonalds “nondual” burger loaded with transpersonal cliches and spiritual bypassing…
    … another strange phenomenon of these times…

  23. Thanks HS –
    No matter..I love each one on the site..as I know who they really are…the personas are just Love in disguise…

    We know also that one has to have had direct experiences of the Self to recognize the Self speaking…The heart speaks through wisdom – the mind through knowledge…people often confuse the two..but are drawn to what they need..

    Knowledge – particularly Vedic knowledge -can be greatly purifying and helpful at certain points on the path – I was steeped in it for 25 years, and it’s especially needed on the siddha path -so Igor fills a void there – but we must know that when we come to the final leg of the journey, all knowledge is utterly useless..It gets burned in the final fire..

    As all the sages have said, Vedanta or non duality is not for everyone…we come to it onlly when we are weary of experiencing and ready to drop the experiencer….It also requires a very refined and discriminating mind to grasp its subtleties..As Ramana used to say…we practice and gather knowledge until we are ready to see Reality as it is..without blinders..

    In Vedanta all is surrendered as we go into the unknown..we can’t take anything with us..even the most beautiful knowledge does not apply there..There are no rules or guideposts in the final walk…we go naked before God..
    It’s true that the shakti is involved in all awakenings – how could it not be – but the full Kundalini ignition is still a rarity..that’s what Igor is talking about…and thank god it is relatively rare..cause most could not withstand the force of it when it releases..

    It takes time and energy and much focus and discipline to traverse the entire yogic path..and the healthiest of bodies to survive the onslaught…the heat alone is tremendous – like nothing one could imagine..

    Having been through all of its manifestations over 20 years, I wouldn’t wish the full blown K on my worst enemy..and certainly wouldn’t advise anyone to TRY to arouse the energy…The path of the heart is so much saner..

    But if people find themselves salivating at the thought of such a fantastic journey and perhaps spontaneously combusting as I did after 19 years of siddhi practice -then hopefully one has easy access to a true master for guidance..a few tapes from someone on the other side of the planet, isn’t going to help much when things get rolling..

    More importantly one also hopes the yogic realization one has gone through so much for, the practices – the perfect diets – the years of celibacy – the emotional distress – the physical manifestations – all of that – is ultimately worth it….

    Based on my own experience, and that of some others I’ve counseled who have gone through it to culmination – head explosion and all – I say one will still be wanting more….

    I have found blessedly that after all is said and done, only Divine Love truly fulfills…and that is always available..waiting for us to open to it – yogic phenomena aside…

    And the best thing about this Love born of Silent Mind is that it can be transmitted…It, being compassion itself, can and does, lift others out of suffering..and that’s the true saving Grace our world needs..

  24. anatol et al.:
    Regarding practices.
    It really needs to be seen within the context of the teaching situation.
    In non-dual circles, it might be that a teacher knows it is time for a student to drop whatever practice and conditioning around that practice, for Self-Realisation to fully blossom. And it could be exactly what is needed. Just what the doctor ordered.
    And perhaps after, that meditation, or mantra, might be resumed for pleasure; or not; but not because said practice will achieve something or add something.

    I think of in terms of the personal teacher/student relationship. In this case, there is trust in the teacher, willingness to surrender, and focus on Liberation. In this context, a teacher may say any number of things to help the student along. If the teacher instructs drop your previous practice, of course there is a choice, but then where is the trust and surrender?

    Another teacher may have no problem with practices. Although it tends to be the case in advaitic traditions, as they are usually focused on one thing; awakening to Truth, that they have little interest in peripherals – or what is seen as peripherals anyway.

    But I still think the teacher relationship is the key in this. If you are going it alone, and with books, and whatever past experience and practices, and forums, etc Then it’s going to be your call, your flavor, your whims. But if there’s a teacher involved, and I don’t mean the inner guru, (great but not the same as physical Guru for most seekers) or a Skype session, or a 2-day satsang….I mean deep relationship, things will unfold as necessary and it won’t look the same for everyone. Because that Grace knows what is required.

  25. Beautiful, HS – you are speaking Truth from the core of your Self!!! It is Awakeness Itself talking..Keep trusting in that authentic expression..so glad you can see your way clear to the final teaching..an old soul for sure..love to you..

  26. There are many paths. They may conceptualize the problem in different ways. In some places, they may even use the same terms, such as “awakening” and “liberation”. But behind the supposedly similar words, what do really mean? What do we really want? (In some ways, the latter question is academic. I’ve been told people will do what they need to do, what is right for them at the time, and that in that sense, all is well.)

    This interview caused me to think of the Buddhist tradition, particularly the notion of “dukkha”, loosely translated as “suffering”, with the gross meaning referring to the cycle of human existence of birth, struggle, growing old, illness, and death. The more subtle but complete translation is “dissatisfaction”, dissatisfaction of not only the obvious aspects of suffering, but something more basic, the suffering of conditional existence itself (which could include the supposedly “good” things). The feeling of it is as if it is a kind of “burden of existence” or general “unsatisfactoriness”. It also calls into question the whole apparatus of hoping, expecting, wanting, and grasping. Here the goal is not that perfection, purification, expansion, or even transcendence of the self, but the calling into question the whole endeavor at its foundations. It’s a very different version of the problem. At it’s heart is a wanting to know the truth, the truth about the world we live in, and the truth about oneself.

    (Note, the Buddhist tradition, as with most major traditions, is diverse. But I think these guys are on to something when they placed “dukkha” as the first noble truth, at least for the purpose of framing the problem that aims at the core issues.)

  27. You hit it right on the head Ernest…At our core, we yearn for Truth but being human, we often get distracted by the bright lights..which could include everything from desire for fame and fortune to seeking greater and greater spiritual experiences..

    Fortunately, it is suffering – dissatisfaction – dis-illusionment – world weariness – that brings us to our senses..so to speak…In a moment of clarity, we see through the emptiness of conditioned existence and long for something more real…then the real work of self-inquiry begins..

    This weariness is the greatest gift of all – as it helps us to surrender the one who thinks it knows – bringing us ever closer to who we really are – to touch Grace Itself…..

  28. Just a footnote to the comment on Buddhist practice: there are actually two different Sanskrit/Pali words for “desire”:

    One of them is used to mean “unskillful” desire, namely the desire for the “objects” of the “external world.” It’s this kind of desire that keeps us locked into suffering, cycling in dukkha, unsatisfactoriness.

    The second points to “skillful” desire, namely the desire for liberation from the kind of suffering engendered by unskillful desire. It’s given a completely separate Sanskrit/Pali word, because it’s considered to function in a completely different way, because the “object” of the desire (i.e. liberation, Buddha Nature, Pure Consciousness) is not actually an “object” (though our minds may initially conceive of it as such) — but rather the Ground of all appearances. This second form of desire includes the desire to participate in practices supportive of the unwinding of the first kind of (unskillful) desire — and hence, is considered of utmost importance.

    To throw out the second kind of desire, along with the first, is — from the point of view of Buddha Dharma — an instance of the proverbial “throwing the baby out with the bathwater.”

    In the end, once it has fully served its purpose, this second form of desire is of course itself consumed within the liberating flames of our True Nature ….

  29. A tight fist clenching (my personal description/experience for a strong desire) objects of the external world or liberation from suffering… is still a tight fist clenching.

    WHAT you are clenching (skillful or unskillful desire) is relatively inconsequential, it appears more currently to me.

    Rather, it’s HOW you are grasping (versus what) that may deserve more of our attention.

    Strong, clenching grasps give the appearance of a grasping hand more solidity and denseness.

    Whereas the converse may be true for the lightest of grasps.

    Grasp what you will (skillful or unskillful desires). It’s the intensity of your grasp, however, that affects the felt experience of the appearance of your hand.

  30. Ernest:
    Very funny. Didn’t occur until just now that you and I have been doing the sessions with Neelam. Since I know your name, mine is Mike, nice to meet you. lol
    Stepping out of the virtual curtain – well a little bit anyway.
    Will you be attending tonight?
    I’m happy for your recent opening/awakening.
    So heart-warming to witness that manifestation.

  31. “Vedanta is not for everyone…” …well, not certainly, the formatted version circulating these days in the West…other emergent “nondualities” (the lifting of the veil, at a collective level) are more inclusive of all the levels of Being…

    “…I felt the familiar soaring feeling increase… increase… growing incrementally as my body commenced to shake as I built up my connection with the mind-blowing energy field that the Polynesians call Mauri Ora and Obi Wan called The Force. Most authentic mystics have experienced it at some time or other. It is the power of Life itself… a gift from the Higher Organizing Intelligences associated with this world… the ones we call ‘the Gods.’
    The transcendent state expanded within me until it completely possessed me. While my body continued to vibrate, gripped in the invisible fist of power, it was as though a window in my mind opened and a feeling of utter tranquility enveloped me.
    Abruptly and unexpectedly, I descended into darkness… into the velvety blackness, and for long moments my conscious awareness was just there, in that place of utter stillness and awesome silence… a state in which all that ever was and all that will ever be is unified in the now… in a state of waiting, of is-ness, of being-ness…”

  32. Beautifully said Mila- I bow to your knowledge of Buddhist scripture…yes -certainly a difference between desire for liberation and desire for a Mercedes – but what I think Ernest and I were referring to here, was actually the experience of the whole ball of wax falling away.. a general dis-illusionment with all of it..even the desire to be saved….

    There is a bone weariness with conditioned existence that comes at a certain point right BEFORE the body/mind is about to retool – a disaffection or dissatisfaction with things as they appear, both material AND spiritual..where we are just plain lost to ourselves..stuck in no man’s land – where even the desire for liberation has lost its luster..and we just go throw the motions..true suffering..

    This is why St John of the Cross spoke of two dark nights – one to rid the body of the material identity and the second one – to rid the soul of the spiritual one..It’s this second identity that is the most insidious…It hangs around longer because it knows that the relinquishing of it means certain death..the death of the one who is desirous of anything..

    Usually along with this ‘felt’ sense of despair – there’s also a ‘knowing’ that simultaneously arises, that no practice or ‘way’ however beautiful it may be – will ultimately deliver us..

    So where you are saying that the desire for liberation loses it’s grip AFTER we are delivered – from my own experience and from seeing many people awaken, I’m saying that that desire burns off PRIOR to the dawning of freedom…and deliberate seeking ends quite naturally..

    In this second dark night, a surrender takes place from deep within and we are willing to truly be ‘lost’ at sea for awhile..unable to see our way clear – no plan – no concept of what lies ahead – no teachings to cling to – just open – as we’ve taken a leap into the unknown..We stop trying to get anywhere or climb any ladders or do anything to effect change or transformation..It all seems useless..

    This is the entry point for Grace.. -the point where the Self shows up in either manifest or unmanifest form..and shows us our true face..

    They say that Buddha in fact didn’t wake up from meditating under the Bodhi tree – he woke up from finally letting go of the idea that HE could do it..and in that surrender there was a huge AHA..

  33. HS – how surprisingly beautiful that you and Ernest are both sitting with Neelam at the same time…my prayer was answered there..Please say Hi to her for me..
    Just to be in that clarifying Silence and Unconditional Love every week is a great blessing…it will take you as far and as wide as you want it to…
    Love to you both..

  34. Jill –

    “We can’t take anything with us, even the most beautiful knowledge…”

    “… after all is said and done only Divine Love truly fulfills…”

    This is the enlightenment I want. When the experience of Divine Love comes in, it sweeps all else away, and makes all other ideas and considerations instantly irrelevant, even non-existant.

    I would have to say that this is truly what I live for, the only thing that keeps me going. After the first experience of it happened I felt like a crack addict – waiting, praying, hoping, meditating, anything to have that experience come back. I soon discovered that it comes when it will come, and nothing I can do will make it come.

    Over time, through Grace, it comes ever more frequently, and lingers as a distant echo even when I am again caught up in thoughts, theories etc. So, what you said is for me a beautiful confirmation that Love is indeed the highest manifestation of the Divine. So, thank you for that Jill.

    My favorite scripture has always been the Rubaiyat. Here is a verse which for me states the case clearly –

    “You know, my friends, how long since in my House
    For a new Marriage did I make Carouse:
    Divorced old barren Reason from my Bed,
    And took the Daughter of tthe Vine to Spouse.”

    Love, Namaste.

  35. “The devotee Kamalakanta lucidly defines Maya as the Form (Akara) of the Void (Sunya) or formless (not Nothingness). Is it Real? It is real, because Maya, considered as a Power, is Devi Shakti, and She is real. The effect of the transformation of that Power must also be real. Some make a contrast between Reality and Appearance. But why, it is asked (apart from persistence), should appearance be unreal, and that of which it is such appearance alone be real? Moreover, in a system such as this, in which Power transforms itself, no contrast between Reality and Appearance in the sense of unreality emerges. The distinction is between the Real as it is its formless Self and the same Real as it appears in Form. Moreover, the World is experienced by the Lord and Mother, and their experience is never unreal. We are here on a healthy level above the miasma of Illusion…”

  36. Larry –
    Thank you for sharing that verse and your heart – made my day…It’s wonderful how the scriptures and poetic masterpieces come alive when you’ve seen what you’ve seen…how just glimpses can sustain us for quite some time….

    I hear you’re heart’s longing for Union and make no mistake IT hears you…The tender feeling level is always closer to This so don’t ever despair of it coming to claim you..

    And you’re very wise to know that we can’t make Love stay – It comes unbidden when we are willing to step out of the way – all the way – and let Thy Will be done…

    Just as with awakening, we can’t effort to bring the fullness of existence to our door…All we can do is stay open and ‘take it as it comes’ as Maharishi used to say – be without resistance – accepting all that arises with gratitude…

    In this acceptance of both the darkness and the light, the mind has no choice but to give up and fall into the heart because there’s nothing opposing it.
    We see that every thought every emotion every sensation has a right to be here..and we treat each as a ‘welcome guest’ in our house..as Rumi said..

    The best kept secret amongst humans is that the heart has a huge capacity to hold everything…the pain of the world can be held there..We think it will break if we allow it to open fully and let the world in -or we’ll be made a fool of or we’ll lose control – but quite the opposite happens…Only if we try to keep out what we think is undesirable, do we shut down and then Love doesn’t have a chance..

    So we just pay no mind and let everything come forth..We laugh with the laughers and cry with the criers as Robert Adams used to say knowing we are bigger than any thought or emotion..

    What turned the tide here in recognizing the fullness of existence at every turn, was the sudden realization that we were always in the arms of the Divine- never ever were separate from that Love – even in our darkest moments..It is who we are..so how could it leave us – It it came and went, it would be no better than an inconsistent lover…

    I wish you well always and speaking of Love Itself, if you’re near Napa California, I suggest you drop in on my friend Pamela Wilson’s satsang and tell her I sent you..

  37. Hi HS/Mike,

    I was tempted to take on another internet name myself, since I am an intensely private person. But good to know you’re with Neelam also.

    I’m actually quite attracted to the practicality (Presence in everyday life) and somatic orientation of her approach. It’s very grounding. Talk about a bodily based approach …

    Igor does some have some good points. “To assume you can just mentally shift and forgo millions of years of evolution, countless incarnations, and suddenly, new you, identity with Para Brahman is complete …” (1:34). Elsewhere he says many such realizations are “skin deep” compared to the path he espouses. This gave me pause. The body is not to be underestimated. I’m dealing with a close relative who has dementia, a dementia that has a neurological basis. I can see the powerful influence of biology here. (And many working with Alzheimer’s patients would probably say the same.) I also wonder about statements of how lucky we are to incarnate as human beings so that we can self realize. This means, in part, that we have a human brain, a brain with a prefrontal cortex, a brain capable of self discipline, sattva, self reflection… In other words, part of the spiritual enterprise does depend on biology.

    However, whether the endeavor requires a yogic ascent or just utilizing ordinary human capabilities is a different question.

  38. AAAAH – finally – this tape of Igor’s posted here – called ‘Prana and Citta’ was relatable..

    In the first 10 minutes or so, he comes down from the mountain – and relates human to human, his personal experience of awakening, which is classic in it’s manifestation…how in a moment of utter despair, of surrender, he was taken.. This is how it is — all that comes before ultimately leading to that fine level of devotional feeling..
    Then in the last 2 minutes, (which seems to almost disavow the entire yogic efforting) he states that ‘the path of the heart is the most direct pathway to realization’..and explains how the opening of the heart connects physiologically to consciousness..

    What’s true is, the shakti energy is involved in all true awakenings..We are not bypassing anything on the ‘direct’ path as satsang is called…No matter the path leading up to realization, there is always a physiological correlate when a true awakening occurs..’.For every change in consciousness there is a corresponding change in matter’ as my old guru used to say…couldn’t be otherwise..

    And I certainly agree with Igor that understanding is an important component to any realization but unless we’re blithering idiots, that understanding naturally occurs during and post awakening as the Self reveals ItSelf to ItSelf…It’s part and parcel of it. A natural wisdom emerges out off the awakened heart – and doesn’t necessarily involve reading the hindu texts…That’s a personal choice…

    In regard to Igor’s interpretation of Mooji as not advocating knowledge or understanding of what is taking place within..no no – Mooji is not saying never read a book -no satsang teacher is saying that – just saying that esoteric knowledge or efforting won’t get anyone to the goal….That’s Grace’s job..

    In Mooji’s satsang and others from Ramana, the emphasis is on directly awakening the heart through the Silent transmission of Love along with focused self inquiry…knowing full well that the deep understanding and clarity unfolds from there…

  39. “Now that we have just observed the centennial anniversary of this first trip by a Zen master to the United States, it is worth noting which epiphenomena he [Soyen Shaku] specifically excluded: (1) the sensation of being lifted up in the air like a cloud; (2) the feeling of the presence of some indescribable luminosity; (3) the experience of supernatural joy; (4) the clarification and transparency of mind such that it appears to reflect all the world like a very brilliant mirror; (5) the feeling as thought the soul had escaped bodily confinement and had expanded itself out into the immensity of space; (6) a return toward that definite state of conscious awareness in which all mental functions are present, and the past, present, and future reveal themselves; (7) a feeling of nothingness in which no mentation is present; (8) a state neither of loss of consciousness nor of consciousness of anything in particular, considered by some to be the highest stage of samadhi.
    What purpose did his exclusions serve? They gave early notice to East and West: Traditional Japanese Zen would concentrate on the high ground of insight-wisdom. It would deemphasize the hallucinatory and sensate phenomena of the ‘vision quest.’ The conservative core of the Christian mystical tradition adopts a similar position.” James H. Austin, Zen and the Brain, p. 373

  40. Jill:
    I was going to reply to Ernest and that video of Igor’s, but I see you’ve got it covered, only more eloquently and with authority of course. 🙂

  41. HS –
    Please don’t let me stop you – I love your posts – The more you speak your truth straight from the heart the better…..You always add something important..Each contributes to the whole..

    I was touched by Igor’s humanness in this tape – his revealing that he lost a child..I choked up – made me feel closer to him….

    As a fellow Kundalini journeyer I know what he must have gone through….Maharishi and Guru Dev and that line of masters didn’t ignite that energy unless they knew someone could withstand it..seems to have happened to those who were willing to die for truth – willing to be broken in two and be rebuilt piece by piece….

    We can only wish him God speed..and hope he has found final rest..

  42. Thanks for this Vamadeva. For me it fills in some gaps.

    Interestingly, when I first saw Igor being interviewed, I couldn’t relate. The thought was – here is someone very detached and remote, up in his intellect. Not for me. Then, after a while I went back to it, thought maybe that was too much of a snap judgement, this is very interesting.

    This morning I watched more and realised Igor is not just a cold intellect, he comes from the heart.

    What changed… the videos didn’t. Maybe another chunk of ego fell away…

  43. I totally agree with you Laurence. At first I felt Igor to be too intellectual whereas in the scriptures it states that we must become as little children but upon listening to his other videos I felt his humanity and agreed with many of the points he made and am now enjoying all the additional material that he has so freely contributed here at Batgap.

    Rick I feel that batgap has now reached a higher level as it continues to provide its listeners with good and useful non duality pointers. Keep up the good work! 🙂

  44. I’ve noticed that a subscription to the belief in higher and lower levels tends to solidify the appearance of a distinct and separate being (AKA ego).

    Your mileage may vary, of course. Fortunately, all mileages are equally valid.

  45. Just gazed at Braco…talk about love..this Love is free of all levels and ladders – all practices and efforting – all knowing and unknowing – all trouble and struggle – all past and future – all good and evil – all words spoken and unspoken — prior to everything that exists..before time began..
    It asks nothing from us – yet we want to give it everything..It is beyond the finest relative, yet here now..offering ItSelf in every moment…We need only open and kiss the sun..

  46. Igor, it’s such a genuine pleasure to see how you’re unfolding and blossoming as a teacher in your own right – I think you achieve a very good balance between Spiritual erudition and personal experience in your interviews, one complementing the other. IMO one needs the other, as your Ibn Arabi anecdote illustrates


  47. Ising –
    We never want to confuse the followers of a certain Being with the Source Itself…The followers of every known realized being from Maharishi to Amma to Braco are by definition, not ‘there’ yet…and they just do the best they can…they’re working out stuff…but we know their intentions are good for the most part..

    I had favorable experiences in my correspondence with Angelica who is in Braco’s inner circle and with some others who volunteer for him and was very impressed with the people with him that I met in NYC…They were genuine and non-intrusive – very efficient and helpful..But even if they hadn’t been, my heart with first gaze was open to him as it is to anyone whose Source shines forth so brightly..

    If you had some difficulty in dealing with some of the handlers, I’m sorry for that but hope you don’t miss out on what he’s offering because of that..You may not see what I see in him and that’s Ok – but sometimes oddly enough we humans resist the ones who can benefit us the most…

    Case in point -I was very skeptical and cynical about the satsang teachers when I was a TMer…There was a part of me that said – how dare anyone say they could just give me Brahman through their Presence when I’ve stood on my head for 25 years 3 hours a day – and endured the fire of the worst of the Kundalini..who do they think they are anyway….

    This idea conflicted with my entire mindset up to then of what was possible – but then in my darkest hour, Grace came in the form of a teacher bearing unconditional Love and opened my mind and heart to something greater – something which was the intended next step in my evolution..
    It’s easy to become cynical on the spiritual path – so many shams and scams -and self serving ones – the mind tells us one thing – the heart another – but I say listen to the heart – and don’t let cynicism stand in the way of the beautiful innocence that you are..

  48. I too have felt a deep connection with Braco … have attended three in-person weekend gatherings, and many times participated in the online gazing live-streams; and find them all deliciously sweet & profound.

    When I first heard of him, watched a couple of YouTube videos, my immediate response was: I MUST meet this man! The only other similarly-strong draw, prior to that, had been for a meeting with Karmapa …..

    In any case, as Jill has said, it’s of course a matter of following one’s heart …. and for this reason I hesitate to recommend teachers to others, but with Braco — who espouses no creed whatsoever (not even “nonduality”) and whose programs are so affordable, I often do find myself mentioning him, planting a seed ….

  49. Jill – Never heard of Braco until you mentioned him here. I clicked on to youtube and the tears began to flow.
    What can one say…

  50. Asking why (i.e. why are we here) is a uniquely anthropomorphic attribute. A leaf asks not why, as it begins to detach itself from a branch. A sun asks not why, as it dis-appears from it galactic location. Only the human species is endowed with the attribute of posing an existential query such as “why am I here?”.

    Which lends me to suspect that Consciousness, or Whatever you want to call It, may not have any purpose at all, in manifesting as It does. It simply manifests.

    We may look for a purpose, which is an attribute of our species. But that does not mean that what we are inclined to perceive … is an attribute of what is being perceived.

    In this case… purpose.

  51. Peter- Our minds like to get some excercise now and again. But does any of this stuff really matter?

    Not a criticism. Just a question in my mind.

  52. ”…A leaf asks not why, as it begins to detach itself from a branch. A sun asks not why, as it dis-appears from it galactic location. Only the human species is endowed with the attribute of posing an existential query such as “why am I here?”…”

    Perhaps because a leaf does not have the nervous system, nor does a sun. That makes all the difference and that makes us humans so uniquely positioned in the wide spectrum of consciousness – to ask that question. Which Igor has managed to turn into a beautiful discourse on the purpose of existence.

  53. The purpose of life is to wake up to the fact that there is no purpose..but of course as illusory beings, we love to speculate..The end of the cycle of human existence which some may term enlightenment – shows us that like the leaf – we just blow in the wind – and like the sun – we rise and set with each passing moment…Without the mind as supreme speculator we are free to return to our much wiser nature.. .

  54. an·thro·po·mor·phism
    noun \ˌan(t)-thrə-pə-ˈmȯr-ˌfiz-əm\
    : an interpretation of what is not human or personal in terms of human or personal characteristics

    Would seeing purpose in Consciousness, then, be an anthropomorphic perspective?

    I ask because I often hear some allude to Consciousness possessing a purpose.

  55. ‘Purpose of Existence’ and ‘Purpose of Consciousness’ are not the same expressions and not the same meanings.

    Existence is inseparable from Consciousness, yet while Consciousness needs no purpose for it does not ‘exist’ unless it manifests itself through Existence, while Existence has to have the purpose in order to come into manifestation. (Courtesy of my Teacher)

    Our return to Nature is a matter of speech for we’ve never left our Nature and Nature never left us.

    ”The purpose of life is to wake up to the fact that there is no purpose.. ” – Jill.

    Every realization is valid in its own right, when viewed from individual perspective. Yet as HH Maharishi Mahesh Yogi has pointed out:

    ”Purpose of Existence is the expansion of Happiness”.

    Which brings the current exchanges back to the theme of expanded in Igor’s Webinar.


  56. “Existence has to have the purpose in order to come into manifestation.”

    Permit me to suggest that that is an excellent example of an anthropomorphic perspective.

    Existence + purpose = manifestation.

    Consider the possibility, though, that the “+ purpose” part of the equation…

    is a filter that we add…

    and not necessarily an attribute of “existence”.

    A filter that is uniquely an anthropomorphic one… to our species.

    P.S. Never mind what someone else may have said about this or that. Find out for yourself.

  57. AAh Sunny – a fellow initiate – quite familiar with our old Guru’s perspective..spent 25 years with him..thank you – and it is of course – Igor’s perspective…which is the yogic perspective…but I’m speaking now from beyond that perspective…

    I’m not even arguing against the perspective that is being put forth – it has its own reality – its own truth – like practice and scripture – it is meant for mass consumption -so when it is said that existence must have a purpose in order to manifest and that expansion of happiness is the purpose of individual consciousness .. no problem…It’s as good an explanation as any…It’s just not the final truth..

    And more importantly – not at all relevant to awakening..No ‘why’ question and answer is relevant to awakening..Discourses on the nature of existence are interesting but do not lead to realization….

    These days I tend to speak from direct experience rather than someone elses..directly from the Self rather than from the mind or a guru’s mind..It’s truer that way…The death of the mind as they say, is the birth of wisdom…

    We could all spend endless days speculating and quoting gurus – and some of that speculation will ring truer to us than other speculation, but when the mind dissolves into the heart – and we rest in the Self -in the arms of Brahman – it ends all mentation – all speculation. –

    On the final leg of the journey – if the energy completed its task, we go back to a simpler way of being..the will has been surrendered..We recognize that we are Existence ItSelf – inseparable from Life..without the mind as intermediary… – resting in the bliss of our true nature…wanting nothing – needing nothing – not even the salvation of the apparent world…

    In the final realization – we see that things just are – no beliefs or concepts remain – no more stories to tell ourselves – no scriptures to study – we realize there is no overall purpose for the creation – just moment to moment existence -and yet paradoxically, we celebrate that which is – in all its glory..

    As for your idea that we have never left our nature – 100% agreement there…but it is the full ‘recognition’ of That and the ‘living’ of It that constitutes Self-realization..with a capital S…We can jump to that conclusion intellectually of course – and apparently ‘know’ from that vantage point – but only the direct experience of of it makes it real….

    I have written much here over the past 4 or 5 months about the difference between a jnani and a yogi..not going to go into it again.. suffice to say that beyond the mind is where the jnani resides…

    What’s true, is that there is something left undone in the yogic realization…. as the mind is still spinning its wheels, so it is not yet complete..a full surrender has not taken place when shiva meets shakti and those knots are untied…

    As I commented to Igor after his original interview at batgap – The final sound is not a sound – one doesn’t hear flutes or anything else when it encounters the vast Silence of the Heart…It’s a direct encounter with the core of the Self- with Brahman – That’s why they call that final Silence, -The Unstruck Sound..as it is no sound at all..It envelops us – swallows us whole – and never leaves us..cause it is who we are..

    And it is purely an act of Grace that one comes to that – no practice will land one there…nor any specialized knowledge – and at that point – there’s no more experience – no more mental speculation..no more individual perspective..just that Love that needs no explanation..

  58. “Thank you, I would apply your P.S. to what you have to share here, Peter.” – Sunny

    I almost always do, Sunny. From my nonmeditational meditations, as Wei Wu Wei liked to say.

    When you place your awareness on all forms that appear and dis-appear before you, you dis-cover that ideas like “purposeful manifestation” are just appearances that appear and dis-appear. Like all ideas and notions do.

    I point to no one’s attestations to make that true for me. I only speak from experience… which also appears and dis-appears… as all forms do.

  59. Thank you for that Peter – you’ve come to the final truth of ‘what is as it is’ in your own inimitable way..

  60. Jill, thank you for taking time to put everything into your perspective.

    No matter how much you wish to speak beyond this or that, it is still just your perspective.

    As for the assessment of what is Igor’s perspective you are not qualified to give your half-baked assessments because you’ve never understood what Igor was conveying here. It is self-evident in your long comment above, unless of course you have the habit of misinterpreting (perhaps twisting?) what others are conveying here.

    I’m a newcomer to this chat and would be gone from this pages sooner than this thread is over, yet I’m not the only one who have witnessed your frenzied attempts to have the last word on every comment page.

    Btw, it is Vamadeva – the one whose comment pages you are but a guest – who is my teacher.

    Peter, thank you, well put, I will apply that also and disappear from this discussion.

  61. Sunny –
    Thank you for speaking your truth- and I wish you God speed on your journey…Sorry you’re disappearing from the conversation – all views are welcome here..I was invited as a teacher to clarify for the site in lieu of doing an interview…I prefer writing to speaking..some like what’s said – some don’t….In any case, sending love to you..

  62. Sunny;

    I respect and appreciate you dis-appearance as much as I do your appearance.

    Looking forward to respecting and appreciating your next appearance as well.

    Bon dis-appearing!

  63. Sometimes I wonder whether the differences between good and well meaning teachers lies in differences in what is considered (primary) “reality”. But even this is conceptual (even if backed by non-conceptual experience).

    But when I hear phrases like “Silence of the Heart”, I am stunned. This is not a matter of being cute, clever, aloof, superior, or “mysterious” or “mystical”. It’s a place the mind cannot go. It’s the place where one bows down. It’s the place where activity ceases.

  64. Rick… thanks for interviewing & introducing us… samarpana & me… to Vamadeva… who is definitely a unique soul… of course each one of us is unique in our own way… sattvic… rajasic… tamasic… some mixture …

    Vamadeva’s uniqueness is that his soul has done it’s HW in previous lives… to create a highly balanced vehicle… of pure physiology… disciplined & wisely discerning intellect… a beautiful heart of an artist… innocence of a child… & humility of a truly wise soul…

    seems obvious… that such purity is what is needed … to experience clearly… to understand clearly… to express/teach clearly… the beauty of the creative process… of the great mystery we call God…

    in gratitude… simplicity… & love… heart to heart…

  65. @Sunny
    I totally agree with your observations about Jill….

    It’s totally perplexing to me, how or why she has this continual ‘habit of misinterpreting’ what others say.

    What’s more surprising is that why more people have not called her out, for her poor behavior and manners.

  66. Gosh – now I know why Braco doesn’t speak at all.. 😀

    and thank you Ernest for understanding what is being said here based on your recognition and experience of that Silence of the Heart – of primordial Reality…..It’s a difficult thing to convey in words, isn’t it..but you know it when you encounter it. – and yes – we bow down in gratitude…love to you…

  67. Jill – I am learning an interesting lesson here, reading all of this.

    It is one thing to pay lip service to “turning the other cheek,” but it is something else entirely to actually do it.

    This has not happened to me in a while, but usually in the past, if someone levels strong criticism at me in a personal way I start to get angry. Even implied criticism gets me a bit warm at the collar usually.

    It’s about “old stuff” being re-activated, most of it from long ago.

    I am noticing that the more the Self predominates, and it does more and more when we meditate, the less these kinds of things have an impact. I would love to arrive at a stage where I can feel love for others no matter what the circumstance.

    Anyway, for me this provides a model to keep in mind – something to aspire to.

    Love, Namaste. Larry.

  68. “I am noticing that the more the Self predominates, and it does more and more when we meditate, the less these kinds of things have an impact.” – Larry

    Larry, just to be clear about what you shared here.

    I’m thinking that you meant you notice Self’s predomination the more that you meditate…

    not Self predominates the more that you meditate.

    My experience strongly resonate with the former, if that is what you meant. And not at all with the latter.

    Thanks in advance.

  69. Peter – Point well taken. Of course the Self is always the reality. The idea of the Self becoming more predominant is an illusion!

    Thank you for that.

  70. It’s been quite interesting and entertaining to see and hear the non-dualists and others dueling it out. I think I’ll go have a glass of wine, chillax, look at the sky and listen to some music I enjoy. Namaste to all!

  71. Brenda;

    Perhaps I need to clean my perceptual lens, ’cause I don’t see dueling afoot here.

    What I see is some feeling disturbed by some others’ actions or expressions.

    Which reminds me of what an awakened one once told me:

    “Bless or thank those whose actions you are disturbed by. For they serve you to reveal the ideals that you may be attached to.”

    Lots of blessings may be in order here then.

  72. Valentino on June 22, 2012 at 2:09 am said:

    I totally agree with your observations about Jill….

    It’s totally perplexing to me, how or why she has this continual ‘habit of misinterpreting’ what others say.

    What’s more surprising is that why more people have not called her out, for her poor behavior and manners.

    >>>>>>>>> my reply… i have emailed Rick offline… and recommend others to do the same…

    if it is true that Rick asked Jill… who supposedly is a friend of his… to act the role of a teacher… and comment on the guests… as she is doing… i feel it’s totally inappropriate… to do so in each guest comments section… if she is a teacher… let Rick give her a guest section of her own… she doesn’t have to be interviewed… since she does not want to… she wants to write… well with her own guest section … she can write all she wants about her teachings… and she can comment there all she wants… and the rest of us will have at least an option to go there or not…

    i further recommended to Rick… THAT TO SHOW PROPER RESPECT TO EACH GUEST HE INTERVIEWS… each guest section should be restricted to… respectful questions for the guest only… not for an open ended chit chat … and then the guest can reply in uncluttered space… so far the only guest with such generosity… & humility… is Vamadeva…

    perhaps others were discouraged by what seems to be… a gang of school yard bullies… who have taken over the turf… and spouting their words of nihilistic anti-anthropomorphic neo-non-duality nonsense… not heeded Mooji’s … “make no tattoos of any utterances” … and Adya’s warnings about stuckness in absolutes… which btw can happen at any level… or Burt’s … “Being is Fluid” …

    those who disavow levels… are definitely stuck in an absolute of their own making…

    fortunately… Vamadeva’s videos are available elsewhere… on FB( Igor Kufayev )… YT … & his own site http://www.igorkufayev-vamadeva.com/#!home/mainPage … so that i don’t have to wade trough BatGap comments… which i have basically given up on…

    Rick has this thing about Freedom of Speech… well that can be accommodated… in the general comments section… and a special guest section for his friend Jill… and the rest of us should have Freedom of Choice…

    overall … Rick’s interviews and most guests have been excellent… not so with the comments sections… as many have commented on their way out… and some… even have been hurt by the rowdiness of irresponsible comments…

    so… do not hesitate to email Rick offline & remember he is for freedom of speech… don’t hold back…

    thanks… God Bless…

  73. Larry –
    Thank you for your honesty and heart…can always count on both..

    Goodness – I’m no saint – just ask my kids – it’s just that due to some undeserved Grace – Love is the predominant force here…and responding to negative criticism with less than that Love would be dishonoring it -unproductive to say the least for all concerned….

    For sure we all have conditioning from the past that get’s triggered in the moment..that’s what Neelam’s courses are about – looking into that conditioning that arises both before, as well as after, awakening, and being ‘with it’ – not avoiding it or putting a spiritual spin on it – but inquiring into it – so that we can come to be free of our past…then we can just experience what is happening in the moment without a filter..and allow the Love which is our nature to be there without interruption..

    When conditioning arises here – some old anger or sadness – it’s not that it’s not felt – we’re not numb – nor is witnessing or detachment the final answer – but rather by allowing whatever arises to be there…inviting it in..and feeling it fully…troubles lose their momentum cause they are not opposed..

    What’s true is, when the ego is seen through – an emotion or thought or sensation simply does not stick to anything…all awakened ones report this – that when the strong emotions or thoughts no longer apply to an identified ‘someone’.. nothing is ‘carried’ beyond the next moment..everything then just rises and falls..as it does in our dream state..

    If there isn’t a ME left – there is no one to really take offense and certainly no ‘other’ to blame..It is seen that if there’s no self here – there’s no self over there…all Consciousness – all the Will of God..all the Self – We are the space that everything arises in – and things don’t happen to us – but within us…We’re bigger than any emotion or thought..or point of view..

    -Do I hear what the apparent others are saying – of course – it’s taken in – but my job is to hear it – and then check to see what I can do to better understand where they are coming from – and how I can better communicate this to them..Consciousness only wants everyone’s awakening..

    Ellie Roozdar said that she won’t deal with anyone who doesn’t want to die to themselves…and I applaud her for that – smart lady – Most of my awake friends feel the same way – feel that putting the final truth of Vedanta out there for the general public is kind of inviting trouble, as it’s completely misunderstood most of the time..so best to deal privately with those who are genuinely willing to stop suffering….

    But what the heck…there are sweet ones like you out there who get it and feel the Silent Love behind the words ..which makes it all worthwhile..

  74. ”…if it is true that Rick asked Jill… who supposedly is a friend of his… to act the role of a teacher… and comment on the guests… as she is doing… i feel it’s totally inappropriate… to do so in each guest comments section… if she is a teacher… let Rick give her a guest section of her own… she doesn’t have to be interviewed… since she does not want to… she wants to write… well with her own guest section … she can write all she wants about her teachings… and she can comment there all she wants… and the rest of us will have at least an option to go there or not…”

    Thank you, Anatol. I second that, and sending it to Rick!

    Let us have ”Jill’s Class” from the top of the Menu… and see what discussion will take there.

  75. Anatol –
    I love your idea – people sticking to the point of the interview when they comment..When I came aboard a while back, no one was actually doing that, so great that you brought it up again as a reminder to all..
    As far as I know, it is a free country and everyone including moi has a right to comment on these pages…or anywhere else for that matter…I certainly wouldn’t deny you the right…and we all agree it is Rick’s site – so he has the final say…He is not swayed by opinion as you know..rather a level headed chap..

    As a matter of fact someone had suggested to Rick recently that I give my own satsang on the site – offered to set it up for us – and he asked me about doing that, but I turned that down…simply no time with the private counseling thing going on –
    but maybe a separate page on the site for some who are interested in what I have to say would be good…I wouldn’t want you to have to wade through all those bulky comments my friend..

    Peter also had a wonderful suggestion, that if something irritates us – something that is said – something we don’t agree with – we bring it to that person directly but mostly we bring it Home and inquire into it..that the anger or irritation it engenders is a gift to our spiritual life…I agree with that wholeheartedly…that’s how we evolve..how we awaken – by turning around and inquiring of ourselves..looking at our own stuff and what the triggers are…It’s all about us..not them..

    Be well – love to you…and I’ll also talk to Rick about your suggestions as well..thanks..

  76. It would certainly be good to have a Jill’s Class. I would be right there, participating and learning.

    But I strongly feel that we all have the right to post comments here, and it seems a shame to spoil that by banishing someone just because a few don’t care for what she is saying.

  77. I’ve had my intellectual tussles with Jill 🙂 But no one has spoken to my heart at its depths like Jill has. I consider it a “service” for one to (respectfully) speak the “highest truth” as that person sees it. Being conflict adverse, I know it’s not always the most comfortable thing to do. It’s easier to retreat into a cave. But speaking out would be in service of truth and freedom.

  78. I just wanted to say thank you to Igor for taking time to make all those videos answering people’s questions. And I do agree with Anatol that it would be nice to keep comment pages related to the guests and topics discussed in each given interview.

  79. Thank you Larry, Ernest, HS and Sam…you all touched my heart with your words…

    The original intention in coming to the site this past year was to help Rick bring some embodied teachers in – ones who have marinated in THIS for awhile -and to recommend others -which has now been accomplished…and so many beautiful friends came – Pamela and Neelam and Gangajij and Eli and Mooji and Adya and Wayne and Tony etc -and hopefully there will be more to come..

    To be clear, Rick did not accord me any ‘special status’ but strongly suggested after reading my private e-mails to him – that I would be a ‘valuable asset’ in his words to batgap if I posted on there..as I was not up for doing an interview..He didn’t bring me on specifically to teach..but I am a teacher..and that’s what teachers do..

    I certainly didn’t want to cause any divisiveness….only wanted to inspire and encourage and to point to what is simpler than we know..that Silence that is here now and which contains everything..Some heard it behind the words, some didn’t…We knew that would be the case, going in..

    I pointed to the direct path often and rather passionately – rather than the yogic one, mainly because having thoroughly experienced both, I didn’t want anyone to suffer what I did for 20 years with the turning on of the energy as a siddha. –

    Make no mistake, this energy is not something that can be controlled once ignited, no matter what practices or purification or preparation we undergo..or what any yogi says..Maharishi was a great great master and yet the energy did what it did to this nervous system..quite a harrowing experience..that has lasting effects..

    And I still get e-mails and calls from many around the country and Rick often refers people to me, who accidentally had the Kundalini turned on as well as from siddhas who deliberately tried to – who are in major crisis..

    If I hadn’t met a teacher from Ramana, who was able to bring consciousness to rest in the heart of the Self, I can honestly say I wouldn’t be here today..I’d still be out the top of the skull..

    So I will steadfastly maintain that the path of the heart, sitting with the awakened – although it involves the shakti – as all paths do -as consciousness is inseparable from the energy – is a whole lot gentler and from the View here, ultimately more satisfying…

    I’m not retiring from commenting – (already did that, once, giggle) but will back off for awhile…to give the site some breathing room..never meant to inhibit anyone from saying their piece….

    I love you all – you too, Anatol, Sunny and Valentino – and may you come to know the bliss of the Self in all its splendor..

  80. Hi Jill,

    Wanted to ask a question to you. Here it is.
    UG Krishnamurti says that awakening ( I mean whatever the final thing is. I dont want to go in different meanings ) is a causeless happening. It happened despite all his efforts.
    Osho in one of his chats in his early days ( in Hindi language ) mentions the same thing that it is a causeless happening and that even attaching a single cause to it would be a lie.
    You too just mentioned that it is the Grace that transcends us.
    Then what are all these things… meditation, self inquiry, choice-less awareness etc. meant for?
    Saying that this is just to wear your mind out and surrender… isn’t it again a cause?
    Please tell, what is the truth? Please do not hide anything 😐

  81. Dreaming lucidly with eyes shut,
    and to the action figure that you identify with,
    what matters within the dream… simply matters.

    Be it meditation, self-inquiry, choiceless awareness or whatever.

    Yet to the Awareness of the dream, nothing matters.

    Dreaming lucidly with eyes open… ditto the above.

  82. Sam, you ask such layered questions that I may have to bring the mind back in to answer — just joking..

    I wasn’t going to comment for awhile but can’t ignore a direct question….

    So this is the View from here- UG and Osho are speaking the Truth – In my understanding and experience – awakening is choiceless and causeless..

    To quote Ramesh Balsekar, an illusory ego can’t choose or cause anything – ‘it can’t make something happen that wasn’t meant to happen nor prevent something from happening that was supposed to happen’..as all is Consciousness..That’s the Absolute view..and it’s the Truth known to the awakened mind..

    We can have varied and various spiritual experiences through practicing but the moment of awakening itself is always uncaused..It is an act of pure Grace..There’s nothing we can ever do to deserve it….

    We come to know this because we can see that the self is the connecting link between experiences…and when this ego/self is seen through, there is no more continuity of experience…

    It’s the story line and belief in the false character that kept the false link operative between events – but without the self, it is seen that there really isn’t a connection between anything..just a universe rising and falling from moment to moment with every breath, as in our dream life…so anything we did leading up to awakening couldn’t possibly have been a direct cause…

    The confusion comes because in daily life, ‘apparent’ choices are made every day -what mattress to buy – what food to eat – what movie to see – what job to take- and consequences apparently result from those choices- – but a sage knows the deeper truth of it – that the choice is just apparent.. no longer fooled by appearances..

    This doesn’t mean we don’t get up every day and do what we do – couldn’t do otherwise – meditate or not meditate -stand on our heads or not – the karmic momentum will dictate what we do – we just don’t ascribe a relationship of cause and effect when the mistake of the intellect is resolved..
    .As Satyam Nadeen once said when asked about preparation for enlightenment – ‘no such thing – when we’re on the 49th step, no matter what we were doing – when we step onto the 50th – something occurs…It’s called destiny’..

    Some say great longing for God is the direct and primary cause of awakening and that can seem apparently true from a certain relative perspective – but that would eliminate a whole lot of people who were out at the local bar or on drugs and woke up..some who never even heard of enlightenment…

    The dualistic mind is constantly befuddled by choice vs choicelessness and free will vs determination -and cause vs causeless existence..etc etc..and unfortunately, the relative/absolute paradox can’t merely be resolved on the intellectual level…or it will remain there..That’s what many sense is the neo-advaita problem..a resolution happening mostly in the mind -so the realization often doesn’t seem full bodied..

    If we don’t fully resolve the paradox and embody it we will continually ascribe relative relationships to absolute realities..

    Best we can do is hold all opposing views lightly until Grace comes to call – be comfortable with all the polarities of life – until they are seen as One…and then life is lived seamlessly without division as to this or that…no separation ends the dilemma..
    Someone asked me what I do the other day – a new acquaintance – I just said – I do what is obvious to do in any given moment…which is a pretty weird response here in NYC..but it was honest..

    And that’s what I advise seekers – not to worry too much about the larger questions – let the mind relax and just do what is obvious to do – innocently going through daily life without a spiritual agenda…being simple like a child – doing what you love and brings joy to your heart as often as you can – letting go as much as possible of things no longer needed – within and without – and being open and accepting to whatever arises…

    Grace can be found anywhere the ego has retired -so satsang can be a place of directly experiencing it.. …Grace is just another name for unconditional Love and it especially loves an innocent open heart like yours Sam….. From the sincerity I pick up through your posts – I’d say you have nothing to worry about…

    Love to you..

  83. Gosh HS – I’m speechless after reading your post..so cool..The understanding is coming fast and furious now, ay?.. I see that I really can retire now….Neelam must have given you the super duper transmission – just so wonderful that you are coming to this at such an early age..I couldn’t be happier..sending love..

    and Night Lilly – I hear you – and hopefully we will try harder to keep the questions and discussions relevant to the interviews – almost everyone has asked for that at one time or another -including myself when I first came to the site – but then from time to time we all just let it go – cause in a sense we realized that almost everything that arises on these pages is seemingly relevant to everything else..

  84. Thanks for the recent posts, Jill. Made alot of sense to me. I need to lighten up on myself (and others) in my seeking and judging and what you said has helped me drop a few bricks off my load.
    Love to you.

  85. Jill: “almost everything that arises on these pages is seemingly relevant to everything else..” I hear you..)))

  86. as for the practice question , one of Rick’s favourite phrases came to mind ..enlightenment is an accident but practice makes one accident prone.. 🙂

  87. My two cents on “paradoxes”. The mind is confused. (But reality is not, or reality is what it is, or reality is one.) Oftentimes, the cause is even more prosaic. Taking spiritual utterances out of context.

  88. Thanks Jill for your sharing. Thanks to Heat Seeker also.
    @Peter and Earnest,
    Tried to understand what you are saying. But could not get it exactly.

    Anyway.. But after listening to all, when I try to see from the place where I am standing; again I am puzzled, ‘What to do?’ Need to contemplate on this. Learning that, I can not do anything to get out of this; does not end the struggle. Can not do saadhanaa day in and day out while ignoring the questions which turned me to this path; hoping that one day my sadhana will bring the answers ( or to say end all the questions ) 😐
    Can not find the ‘Who am I’ question to be mine. It is not MY question. 😐 I don’t relate with it.
    What do I want???? What is my question? 😐

  89. Brenda –
    Thank you for that – I’m so glad something was heard through the words…and very glad you are being easier on yourself..In the end this whole trip is about Self-love..As we move along the path, it blossoms until we can barely stand it – and then we just want to share it anyway we can..

    Night Lilly -I have offered to pay Rick to retire that comment…:D

    Sam – Not to worry – You are in the best possible place right at this moment for awakening…caught in the middle of knowing the Truth at your core that there’s nothing to be done, and yet half-believing – there’s something to do…

    This is the place where the mind gives up it’s reign, if only we let it…It’s pulled apart at both ends…at it’s extreme – and ultimately, it doesn’t really stand a chance of surviving the Truth that you are..Stay there – not knowing which way to go..and see what happens..
    I know it’s uncomfortable and no one likes to be confused – but the mind’s general state is confusion – it’s its nature – we pay it no mind – The willingness to bear the unknown is more than enough for Grace to make its entry..

    If we grab onto what is familiar at this point of tension- relying on what we’ve already done and what information we can accrue..we miss the opportunity that is presenting itself..

    No need for the Who am I question at this point- I personally never related to that either – The self-inquiry I’m advocating for – that Neelam teaches – is exactly what you’ve been doing…seeing the places where you are stuck and witnessing them…not avoiding anything that is going on within..
    Again I recommend being in the company of the enlightened – a whole lot can get cleared up with the transmission of Silent Mind..

    So again – for right now – let the mind relax -don’t try to solve the paradox..no effort……just be..

    Love to you all – hope you enjoy this beautiful day wherever you are..

  90. Sam;

    Regarding your search for your own question, ever read the novel or see the movie The Razor’s Edge?

    Some researchers say that Somerset Maugham wrote the novel after visiting with Ramana in India.


    Larry, the story’s protagonist, also had his own, personal questions. This what he ended up doing to them:


    And this is the truth that was revealed after all of his questions were turned into ashes.


    Have a match?

  91. Don’t sell yourself short HS….yes there’s a difference relatively speaking, but in terms of the deeper Truth, developed intuition is separable from the Self..

    One doesn’t have to be resting comfortably in Being for 20 years and completely without ego, to speak from a clear awakeness in the moment, which you very often do..

    Someone once said that the critical difference between a sage and an ordinary being is that the sage knows what he doesn’t know..and will readily admit to not knowing anything, sensing that true spiritual knowledge comes through him, but is not of him..

  92. @Jill

    “…the self is the connecting link between experiences…and when this ego/self is seen through, there is no more continuity of experience…

    It’s the story line and belief in the false character that kept the false link operative between events – but without the self, it is seen that there really isn’t a connection between anything..just a universe rising and falling from moment to moment with every breath, as in our dream life…”

    I find this description interesting. I’ve never heard the no-self experience described as discontinuity.

    It reminds me of an experience that I’ve had for several years. When events become past (…as they all seem to do 😉 …) they somehow step out to such a distance that, though I recall them clearly enough, they seem almost infinitely distant. Last week can seem like last year and last year could be ten years ago. Another aspect of this experience is that the memories are crystalline, not shrouded in the dimming of the past as it recedes. It’s sort of like looking at a printed page through a fiber optic disc. The remote characters are as if lifted from the page to the top surface of the disc. I know that is an obscure analogy, but it’s how it feels. When I recall something it’s like looking down a tunnel and seeing the event in total clarity, but the distance of time is removed. Sorry, it’s a hard experience to describe. Anyone else feel this sort of thing?

    I also liked this comment: “…the sage knows what he doesn’t know..and will readily admit to not knowing anything, sensing that true spiritual knowledge comes through him, but is not of him.”

    It’s not channeling but allowing the fuller Self to speak. No ownership is possible. It’s funny, but nowadays when someone says “I wrote this.” or “I did this…” I can see the delusion of authorship. We don’t originate anything. It simply comes into being though us individually and collectively.

  93. Namaste, Jill. I can’t comprehend how anyone could take offense at your postings. They are so full of light, truth and, above all, love. There is never a trace of ridicule or judgement in them…though there is much discrimination. Just because they are also full of clarity and a profound perspective that may differ with that of the interviewees, I don’t see that as judgmental or off-topic. And because you voice such a profound perspective, I see no fault in being insistent and repetitive. Lord knows, all the great teachers have a message that they repeat until their dying day.

    I am reminded of Yoga Vasishtha in which the great sage helps the young Lord Rama to awakening. After describing every possible angle on the subject, Vasishtha exclaims, “It’s just so simple…how can anyone miss that?!”

    Your message, Jill is uber-simple. That’s why it’s so hard for mind to take. “What do you mean nothing? Really, nothing?”

    So, here we are. I had actually taken the week off of batgap. It’s funny the progression I experienced here. When I first started listening here I was dazzled by all the descriptions of the interviewees. So many points were so familiar and it helped my mind gain perspective on my experience.

    Yet there was something still to be known and it drew me to begin joining in the comments. If some point in the interview was particularly meaningful to me I’d highlight it in a comment. You picked up on one of my comments and encouraged me to continue my engagement. You were never patronizing, but always supportive.

    Over the past months (seems like years as the transformations have been so steady…see my time note above) I’ve delved deeply into some of the tougher knots of knowing…trying to get a perspective and also what to do with my state of affairs. Many on this site have joined in this collective process of evolution and I am grateful to all. At times it seemed like a lively party with everyone laughing and dancing in the wonder of it all.

    Through it all I’ve found that your comments have been the most pithy and more importantly, the most transformative. You gently guided me to understand that simplicity is the technique; that Being is its own answer; that no practice will get you to the completion, only honest and pure being.

    Yet within that, there is room for any activity or practice that feels right. I have seen no contradiction with any of the teachings here on batgap. You have just provided a gentle reminder of the essential task at hand and how ultimately simple it is.

    I had actually stopped engaging in batgap this past week or so because I sensed that there is much less here for me than before. You must know how it goes – we get passionately involved in something, not because our individuality desires something so much as our universal nature longs to grow through this experience. When the growth is done, the means to that goal is dropped quite naturally.

    So I was feeling that I had learned much of what I came to batgap for – and I’m extremely grateful for the blessings I have received here. Your guidance in that growth was seminal.

    Now when I come to batgap, it is not as a seeker but as a sharer. I come to enjoy the sharing of the Reality that can be enjoyed by hearing it described, discussed and commented upon. Like you have said about satsang, when the people in the group no longer are seen as mirroring your issues, then the group has served its purpose. That doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy the group, it only means that it no longer holds the same import that it once did.

    For the many of us who, through life’s circumstances, cannot step into good satsangs with great teachers, this forum is invaluable. And I must reiterate that your posts here are the most essential to me.

    I don’t know how many others get the sense of the truth of a speaker just by listening, but this forum is a great place to taste all types of knowledge and expressions. Each interviewee certainly has their flavor of wisdom, but also all of the commenters display their personal energy in every word (or in the spaces between the words)…and each contributes a unique element to the collective uprising that is turning now.

    I know that resonance is a personal thing, so what is perceived will be different for each person, but I have always felt that your posts have a direct light that is palpable, sometimes overwhelmingly so. It has been a very real transmission for me. Also, when you left the group a few weeks ago, I noticed that the activity dropped significantly. It seemed to me that the sweetest part of it, like the frosting on the cake, was gone and we were left to our own devices.

    That said, Self is everywhere. The Guru is everywhere. God is everywhere and we will certainly find our way with or without your participation here. But coming from one who has found a shortcut on what was beginning to appear like a very long and winding road, appreciation for you contribution is deep.


  94. Erick –
    The check is in the mail… 😀
    Seriously, thank you for your more than kind words I always feel your genuine and grateful heart — no need to even say it –

    It’s been wonderful to observe your inner transformation these past months – I had little to do with it -The Silence was calling you..and you answered the call.. It was your willingness to open to your own Self and leave behind previous concepts..to trust that this was simpler than we all thought – and to rest in the unknown so Grace could find you….It was obviously your time…

    Speaking of time, yes – as your experience shows – with the falling away of ego we find ourselves outside of it..The link of the self that tied us to conditioned existence, and therefore linear time, is no more…

    This becomes more and more obvious as one deepens..and is not merely seen as an abstraction..but a fundamental reality..We see clearly that all is just lived moment to moment…no past or future in any real sense…

    I compare daily existence without the ego/self to our dream life because it’s a good parallel..When the veil is lifted- there is only the Eternal Now – all collapses into the infinite moment..that has no beginning and no end..

    Just like in our dreams..when the ‘I’ thought is resting – there’s no starting or end point..we enter and exit at any junction…and then the experience fades into the ether….no actual birth or death except the rising and falling of circumstance..It was only the illusion of self that gave rise to our concept of a timeline between living and dying….

    Please do keep in touch – you have my e-mail – and I hope you’ll continue to share your wisdom on batgap..THIS was meant to be shared…even though in the truest sense there’s only ONE of us here..

    Much love to you..

    and yes the Self is out of time

  95. Thank you Rick and Igor for such a honest interview. Doesn’t even felt like 2 hrs at all.

    The comments on this thread are interesting as hell : )

    Jill, from what I’ve read -you seems to be a wise person.
    A quick question from me (if you don’t mind me asking)
    – it sounds to me from the way you commented in the previous replies that Kundalini can be ignored and you had recommended a path for a safer awakening – ie via the heart.

    The reason why I asked that question is that I have an active Kundalini that has been going on for about a year. Was a spontaneous event – haven’t even heard of it before and was frighten initially. Experienced all classical symptoms that are typically associated with this phenomena.

    From what I’ve read and gathered – it is virtually impossible to stop or reverse the Kundalini process once it started. You seems to be suggesting otherwise.. Please let me know if that is the case.

    I am currently trying to be as mindful as possible in my daily life – and also sitting for about 1-2hrs per day. Throughout the past few weeks – I felt my awareness expanding – the witness consciousness is more obvious now – however I still get to experience the usual K symptoms

    In the country that I am from (Singapore) – I have no access to spiritual teachers outside organised religion. Even tried that mode and those teachers have no clue about K

  96. Criable
    I’m sorry if you are having any distress related to the Kundalini symptoms..Spontaneous ignitions do seem to catch us unaware…You must be a sensitive soul..

    It’s great that you are able to ‘witness’ the phenomena and are also reading up on it and watching interviews with knowledgeable ones like Igor who can bring some genuine understanding to the table..as to how this energy manifests in the body/mind..

    My K experience was a tumultuous one lasting over 20 years with the energy awakening and clearing every chakra and ultimately culminating in a rather harrowing shiva meeting shakti nightmare…It good 5 years of wandering around in outer space before I was able to finally find a teacher to bring me to peace…I have to say it wreaked havoc with every system of the body..Fortunately through Grace, I was able to come through it..

    Concerning your question of a gentler path, I was referring to what they call the ‘direct’ path, whereby sitting with an enlightened being, a transmission of Silence is given, and the heart knot, etherically speaking, is undone..From there, the Kundalini unfolds in a natural manner as it makes its way through the body/mind without resistance..leading to ultimate freedom…

    To be clear, Mother Shakti is involved in all paths to awakening – as this energy is inseparable from consciousness itself, so it’s not as if it can be avoided or bypassed – but the yogic path of clearing all chakras and proceeding step by step to the goal is a long and arduous one..and in light of the Grace that is available today, largely unnecessary..

    We are living in extraordinary times whereby Grace is available through an embodied teacher to help make the process more efficient and not as difficult or dangerous…Through the transmission of Silent Mind, consciousness can be brought to rest in the Self and unfold from there into deeper aspects of Being..without the climbing of the etheric ladder..

    So what I’m saying is, that through Divine Intervention – through an intermediary – much of the perils of the journey can be mitigated…When the peace that surpasseth all understanding is given FIRST, it makes the rest of the trip, much easier to manage…The energy still does its thing but being centered in the Self first, makes a huge difference…Traversing the path without that center being established first which is what happened here, was not the best way to go…

    Wisdom tells us that the heart is the balancing point which is why it is strategically centered in the middle of the chakra column..It is the connecting point for the ethereal energies above and the grounding energies below: It is the place where heaven and earth meet..the literal meaning of the cross..This vital nucleus is known universally as Love..

    Being that you are in Singapore without direct access to an enlightened teacher – I would suggest that you peruse this site as well as go to satsangteachers.com and see what teachers might appeal to you and contact them through skype if possible..

    In truth, there are no boundaries in consciousness so even being with someone that way or by phone can have a powerful effect…Dear ones like Mooji or Adyashanti or Gangaji or Neelam or Pamela Wilson are high on my list for divine support and intervention…

    You can also ask Rick for my e-mail if you want to further discuss your personal situation..I’ve spent the better part of 16 years counseling people privately regarding the K..

    There’s also a wonderful site called sharedtransformation.com. It is dedicated to providing information on the K. The woman, El Collie who ran it, now deceased, was a good friend who had been through the entire energy journey over 30 years and writes eloquently on the subject…

    One way that her newsletters, which are still posted on the site, were very helpful was in seeing that this energy phenomenon was global – not just reserved for a few yogis in the Himalayas, and reading others’ experiences, can give you comfort that you are not alone…The newsletters also helped to distinguish K symptoms from pathological ones..which is important.. and gave good suggestions for grounding oneself…I unfortunately continued to meditate and practice siddhis after the K was ignited which made all the symptoms more troublesome..

    I leave you with what Swami Muktananda wrote years ago which helped to soothe..He said – ‘Always remember that when this energy starts moving through you, never fear, as it is not the Universe attacking you, but God moving through you’…and that’s the truth..

    Sending love your way…

  97. Hi Jill, thank you so much for the very thoughtful reply. K is a relative rare phenomena – its hard to get help from people who understand what it is. In this part of the world (Singapore) – most people regard K as evil. In fact I was being forced to undergo an exorcism (taoist style) procedure when a close family member saw me having kriyas. Unfortunately it was an failed attempt to rid me of my K : )

    El Collie was the first few authors that I have read to decipher my situation back then. Think I have at least read her “on the path of the spirit” 3 times. Her book was such a saving grace then when I was on the verge of insanity. I have been reading on this subject and spirituality ever since.

    If you don’t mind- I’ll be contacting Rick for your email

    Thanks so much once again

  98. Yes of course Criable – write to me -I wouldn’t want you to be alone with this…Interesting that we both found our way to El Collie’s site from different parts of the world at different times…I was led to her in the mid 90’s..

    It seems that even in death, her words are a guiding light…she left an important legacy..El knew more about the Kundalini than anyone else, cause she lived it from start to finish..It wasn’t book knowledge with her..she spoke directly from experience, although she was very well read in the area as well..I think I read all 200 books on her list at one time..

    What’s true is, most spiritual seekers don’t experience the full blown ignition of the energy, which as you know from El’s writing is quite rare..Usually what is termed a Kundalini awakening, is actually when only a sliver of energy escapes and makes its way up the central channel..usually not even going all the way to the brain….
    The slow ascent which awakens all the chakras over a long period of time, is fraught with many symptoms both emotional and physical and is not at all common..

    Some have said the K has an evolutionary purpose for the planet…I don’t know about that – all I know is when it happens in a particular body/mind, it needs understanding and nurturance..
    Hang in there..
    I Iook forward to hearing from you..

  99. Criable ~ I haven’t been taking part in this discussion (except for the video-responses to the questions Rick and I didn’t have the time to cover in the 2-nd interview) simply because I haven’t got much time due to my commitments in working with those who require (at times immediate) guidance and support especially when dealing with the symptoms associated with spiritual emergency.

    I know you’ve addressed Jill and am sure she will be very helpful in this regard, yet if you wish to contact myself you are most welcome (just follow the link to my website in the introduction text, and to the Contact page).

    As someone who is undergoing through the process, you need to know that awakened Prana Kundalini moves and behaves in the manner which is colored by the intentions present right on the eve of awakening. It is in the nature of Prana which is linked to the most subtle mental and emotional processes. That is often overlooked, yet that is where the subtle trajectory of awakening is most revealing. Including the ‘not knowing’ or ‘not intending’.

    The intensity and often safety of the process is paramount to the degree of our understanding, acceptance and inner intelligence which is often frail at the early stages of that process.

    It just happened that my ‘speciality’ is to work with people who have been affected to whatever degree with that blazing fire of Grace, regardless of how long they’ve been treading the path.

    In addition to that I emphasize the importance of diet during different phases of ascend as well as nutritional and herbal support to make sure there is enough elasticity in the nervous system and the brain. Plus the system is oiled enough to make sure the ceribro-spinal fluid has the fuel to run without burning the nerve endings.

    I agree with Jill said – do not fear. There are plenty of people being ‘unaware’ awakened and learning to live with that most powerful of all human experiences, literally as we speak.

  100. Hi Igor (Vamadeva),

    Thanks so much for reply in spite of your busy schedule. I’ve been following you on youtube and watched both your interviews with Rick -and I must say that my experience with K are very very similar to yours – the automatic asanas, mudras, bandhas, mantras, kriyas etc.

    I am also with you on your approach – ie understanding which stage in the development process and the relevant aspect of “self” to let go. That’s the very essence of your approach that I make out from your interviews/ comments.

    Although you did not explicitly mention the word “Grace” in your interview – I felt that you attribute a great proportion of awakening to it.

    Earlier I had a teacher (Chrism) who emphasized alot on surrendering to the divine and reassured me that I am not crazy. I am beyond the “shocked” stage now and currently my intentions are 1) trying to understand K and at the same time – 2) to become a better person.

    Thank you so much once again for the comment…. Will be writing to you soon.

    Best Regards,

  101. I am used to the warmer Gangaji, Mooji and even Adyashanti-style presence by now, so at first I found Kufayev to be a bit too cold and intellectual-sounding. I found him more compelling as I stayed with the interview. He seems to possess a brilliant mind, he claims to have awakened to high levels, he has a quiet charm and I even suspect a good sense of humor which he reserves for what he deems appropriate times. While sharing fairly different information, he reminds me of early Alan Watts, without Watts penchant for theater. Kufayev here conveys not only wisdom and information, but also hints at further implications. His particular expertise on Kundalini – including preparation for the possibility of, and warnings regarding – appears so considered, that I am strongly inclined to believe significantly different notions from his to be poor guesses based on limited samples and dubious inferences/understanding.

  102. Thanks for sharing, Anatol. I was ‘there’ btw, at that webinar. The subject of Human Body as the battle ground is actually related to the main topic Vamadeva was addressing.

    @Dolphin – it’s funny you should mention likes of Mooji and Adyashanti in comparison to Igor – Vamadeva, for some of those who sat with these teachers come to him precisely because they didn’t find the help nor the answers, yet on just /seeing hearing Igor speak felt immediate heart connection.

  103. Thank you, this was a very reassuring interview. It seems as though the significant physiological changes I’m experiencing are not discussed or understood by many. Others I have listened to make it seem so easy with no mention of physiology – ?? Why? This for me is a truly embodied internal journey – I like what other teachers say but they aren’t of much help to those in the throws of unexpected awakenings. It seems like when the k awakes – noone really wants to discuss it, ‘the symptoms aren’t to be identified with’ – yes ok I get that, but just to know that you’re not about to internally combust and that you will be able to function and go on with life -given a little clarity from those like sarojini and the depth Igor has is gold on this site. The rest – from my perspective feels like chit chat. Thank you Rick for including these treasures.

  104. Know what? When I firs started into this kinda awakening of mine 20+ years ago, I used to see myself as the only soul on earth having this kind of insights about time, space and consciousness, the very same Igor speaks about in this interview. I would not talk about it to anyone, because I had the feeling that this was going to be an useless effort.
    Recently, many times I’ve had this “aha” feeling attending the words of an skilled or master person, I cannot possibly learn nothing from you or anyone, for this truth cannot be even brushed out the words. If you haven’t had a direct taste of the “enchilada” -I like Rick’s tasty metaphor- you can never figure out what it’s taste out of the list of ingredients neither from other’s experiences. And, i guess that is happening to many many seekers, they mistake the words of some kind of guru which have only a recalling effect of their very own seeker individual experiences for teachings: they think they’re learning something when they’re actually remembering what’s already known: they own true nature.

    Having said that, I don’t mean there’s nothing to learn. My own experience is that the teaching based upon the raw practices, the humble daily paths or techniques that must be taken in order to achieve some sort of growth, are the most powerful for boosting in awakening -yoga, meditation, martial arts or whatever- , more than the epic speeches upon the “true nature of reality”. It takes many many wisdom to enhance the Upanishads or the sutras, and only very few people can achieve this level.
    But, the feel I get hearing guys like Igor, (maybe Adyashanti or Tolle or very few more) is kind of “that’s it” and they speak directly from the experience, but also from the patiently crafted and worked mindfulness of their own awakening.

    Thank You very much Rick and Igor again for this fantastic talk.

  105. At the outset of the above video clip, Igor uses the terms “consciousness” and “awareness” interchangeably (i.e. “the expansion of c(C)onsciusness, the expansion of a(A)wareness”.

    He also speaks to awakening/self-realization-enlightenment as if they are distinct points of experience that occur in a progression.

    If you ever dreamed lucidly, you will recall that time (duration) and space (locality) are aspects of the dream, but not aspects of the a(A)wareness of it.

    All dreams contain progression (time and space), but the a(A)wareness of the dream is aspectless.

    Or so has my lucid dreaming experiences, both with eyes shut and eyes own, revealed to me.

    Which prompts me to encourage you, the reader, to consider that all discussions of things which include a progression (or the aspects of time and space)… to be merely reflections of a dream.

    Awareness of the dream, on the other hand, is devoid of any and all aspects. Including expansion (which requires time and space).

    I wonder if Tim F. touches upon this in his most recent interview with Rick.

  106. Peter ~

    Lucid Dreaming is a manifestation of witnessing over the dreaming and/or deep-sleep states of consciousness.

    Witnessing is impossible unless there is subject present.

    The main emphasis of the above given talk was to examine the often used terms in the light of direct experiences, where the different quality of consciousness dominates over other.

    Seen (object) dominates in waking (ignorance, maya, etc) over seer and seeing.

    Seeing (experience) dominates in awakening over seen and seer.

    Seer (subject) dominates in self-realization over seen and seeing.

    Nothing dominates in Enlightenment – there is no seer and seen, only seeing remains on its own.

    There is no progression. It is a sequential unfoldment of different values. Please watch the vid again there is a slight chance you’ve missed the point.

  107. I’ll be happy to re-view the clip later tonight. Have some errands to perform now.

    Until then, some perceptual seeds for your fertile soil:

    1) Re. “sequential unfoldment”, sequence, like progression, requires the fibers of time and space. Fibers of the fabric of c(C)onsciousness.

    2) Re. “…in Enlightenment – there is no seer and seen, only seeing remains on its own”, what you point your worded finger to as Enlightenment is what I point my worded finger to as Awareness.

    Subject-object is the Dream’s foundation. Being Aware of being Aware, on the other hand, is devoid of all aspects; including subject-object.

    You lumped c(C)onsciousness together with a(A)wareness re. the attribute of expansion, at the video’s outset. Do you still feel the same way? Still (ap)perceive a(A)wareness to possess the attribute of expansion?

  108. Thank you, Peter.

    I’ll respond to your last comment when time permits. Speaking of which is not part of the dream-reality but as real as Space itself. This is were our vision differs. When Awareness all there is, the term as Dream is a redundant concept.

    If you can spare another Ghati (vedic measure of time) here is the part 2 which is based on Q&A


  109. Thanks Rick and Igor for an exploration of many subjects, some not widely covered. Quite enjoyed some details.

    Still don’t quite relate my experience to the overall perspective but will review further and check relevant followup videos.

  110. When we are driving if suddenly some one honked harshly behind our car….. the first jerk comes in the spiritual heart area…..
    we get real jolt in the physical body…..later we understand it was a sound from car behind us… and start analyzing why they honked etc….. but first second we feel the sound in ourself…. not out side….

    I felt this many times…..

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