Harri Aalto 2nd Interview Transcript

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Harri Aalto 2nd Interview

Rick Archer: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer, and my guest today is Harri Alto for his second interview, did the first one a few months ago. And if you haven’t watched it, you might even want to watch that one before watching this one. We received a very nice response to Harri’s first interview, both Harri and me. He got maybe 600 emails from various people, some of whom he’s still in communication with and I got all sorts of comments, like cancel everybody else and just interview Harri every week. So it’s some people really resonated with that interview. And I’m gonna start with a lot of questions that people sent in to Harri, on the basis of that interview. And then there’s some other sections we’re going to cover in the course of this interview might be a long one. So I’m just gonna start asking these in the order they appear.

Harri Aalto: And well, here I am, again, yeah, I don’t know how you did that again. But like, the first one, I did, I was very appreciative. Let me just say a few words, you know, I was actually quite intrigued and surprised by the response. You know, getting hundreds of people emailing you isn’t my normal existence. And, you know, I tried to answer the questions and inquiries and so forth, as best I could, I didn’t get to them all, but I got into a lot of them. And, and I was also surprised by the depth of the depth of some of the questions. Yeah, they were very, they were profound. Mostly appreciative, but not always. And, and they were, they were deep. They were, they were good questions, and we’re going to try to cover some of them today. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Rick Archer: And you also had people wanting to come to Fairfield to see you and wanting you to go and teach retreats in various places, and so on, which you don’t do as of yet. But it was interesting that that got stirred up. So I’m just gonna take these in order, it’s somewhat random, but I’m sure that a lot of nice material will emerge as we go on. So here’s the first question, what is the difference between no self at all self?

Harri Aalto: Well, you know, my main, if I have a main story to tell, or an experience to relate, or an understanding to communicate, it’s that the growth of consciousness is inclusive and not exclusive. And you know, there are there are movements, you know, I, there’s, there’s pure consciousness fundamental. Everybody has it, some people are aware of it, some people aren’t. And that pure consciousness can be seen as empty, or it can be seen as full. It’s been my experience that there’s a younger person, in my experience, that wasn’t much there. But it was there. 24 hours a day, always there. That’s called awakening, right? The first stage of awakening to me is that stage where there you see this primordial consciousness, that’s universal, right? And then my experience was that that that consciousness grew with as it became brighter, fuller, richer, it wasn’t so dark wasn’t so small. It was, it started revealing its true nature, and the true nature of the relative and the subtle relative. That’s what I’d say about that. Yeah, but question on that.

Rick Archer: No, but it reminded me of something I wanted to say, which is that in the last interview, I introduced you as being possibly the most articulate person I had interviewed my objective tonight. Yeah. And afterwards, I don’t know, articulate isn’t the right word. I’ve interviewed plenty of people who are incredibly articulate, you know, they’re extraordinary. Yeah, yes. But I thought of a metaphor to perhaps distinguish you from a lot of the people out there, which is that, you know, most of the people in the world think that I am a wave, and I see myself as separate from all these other waves. And then teachers come along and say, You’re not a wave, you’re the ocean. And some people realize that experience that oh, yeah, I’m the ocean. And then other teachers, I’d say a little bit more nuanced. Say, you’re you are the ocean, but you’re also the wave. You’re both, you know, individuality and universality. Now what you’re saying is, okay, yeah, you’re the wave in the ocean. But look within the ocean. There’s all kinds of detail. There’s fish and whales and sea We’d crabs and all kinds of stuff going on within the ocean. And you don’t hear too many people, obviously using a metaphor here, but you don’t hear too many people out there in the spiritual circuit, talking that way about the fine fabrics or the fine details within the unmanifest within consciousness. And I think that’s an area in which you are extremely articulate. Well, there’s the word I think in that respect, you articulate, you know, you can say a lot about that stuff.

Harri Aalto: I’d like to add here that none of these fish or whales or squid would ever swimming around in the ocean, eliminate the ocean, the ocean, I experienced, just like many, many people do. It’s an unbounded field of consciousness isn’t disturbed by anything, it’s there. It’s always there. And perhaps in my last interview, you might have, you know, thought that I was only talking about the structure or the, or the details of the I’m not I’m talking about the whole phenomenon, and the ocean will never be anything other than an ocean, what’s in the ocean. And you know, some people think there’s nothing in the ocean. And that’s true. On one level, there’s nothing in the ocean, if you talk about the absolute, pure, unbounded silence, it’s pure, unbounded silence. In my experience, there’s an experience or to that silence. And when it’s when there’s an experience of somebody saying, Well, I, I have this experience, that experience is already something. It’s some fluctuation, however silent. So I’d like to make that point the ocean is always there. I recognize if somebody has the ocean, that’s the fundamental, first and most important experiencer of wakefulness isn’t being aware of that ocean of consciousness. Absolutely,

Rick Archer: yeah. And we’ll get into the questions about this later. But some would say, if you’re, if you’re kind of getting hung up on all the details of, you know, angels and subtle beings and subtle levels, and all kinds of stuff that’s going on, which is what we’re referring to, when we talk about fish within the ocean, you know, that yes, just subtle mechanics of creation, then you’re kind of regressing because you’re getting caught up in stuff, which ultimately is my ultimately is illusory. You know, you should if you’re really settled in Enlightenment, then you don’t care about all that stuff. You’re just down to the foundation, bedrock of creation, and you reside there without any

Harri Aalto: Yes, but nobody’s talking that that ocean goes away, right? The point is that the ocean is there, along with all this other stuff. The point is that you’re not sitting there like Buddha with a big belly, you’re also with eyes open, having the same experience, the same experience of that unbounded ocean of consciousness, along with everything else. A person who has a fully developed consciousness doesn’t suddenly not see the daily relative drives, the car stops at a red light doesn’t drive through the red light stops, because that’s the thing to do. Right? Yeah, preservation is still lively. Now, pure consciousness, if you look at it from just the level of pure consciousness itself. You could say that, you know, I said this analogy last time when it’s clear, when it’s full. It’s like, it starts like a flashlight and ends up like a floodlight and then turns into an illuminated field of consciousness that, that shines on everything and gives it its full value. It doesn’t go anywhere. It’s always there. I, I acknowledge the fact that all the non dualist and the advices have something very significant in their consciousness. Pure Consciousness is great. That’s wonderful. My experience was that that pure consciousness is just like what I’ve said it’s a light that illuminates whatever comes into its proximity. It doesn’t eliminate it. A person

Rick Archer: that’s pure consciousness have a proximity, isn’t it?

Harri Aalto: I said, Whatever runs into it’s a figure of pure consciousness is everywhere. Yeah, but so is the fluctuations of pure consciousness, the subtle relative and even the grocery of everywhere. So universe. Yeah, it’s all one continue. And yes, it’s all one level of consciousness, seen by people who are traveling towards it, as it were. Now, some somebody might say there’s no path. And ultimately, if you want to put it, look at it holistically, there is no path. On the other hand, we all are moving towards something. If, if if somebody wants to eat something, they have to go to the grocery store, and they go buy it. It doesn’t matter if you have pure consciousness or don’t have pure consciousness. You have to go to the grocery store to get the food We call that a journey. Consciousness is like that. Right? It’s you, you moving towards the recognize, recognizing something that’s already there. Right i That’s true. That’s been my life. There’s always that. There’s always that sense when there’s a new experience or a new level, but it’s always been there, there’s always that feeling there. Now, the only thing that my experience has been that every time I see something, say it’s a lesser celestial level, as long as that celestial level or the devas are gods or goddesses, whatever you see, doesn’t obscure the pure consciousness, it’s a valid, good experience. If all you see is the subtle relative, then that’s not good. That’s like being lost in the grocery, same thing. It’s all in reference to the self in reference to the wholeness of the experience. Right. Okay. All right, let’s go on.

Rick Archer: what do you feel is the main benefit of Self Realization?

Harri Aalto: In my case, it’s a sense of contentment, that comes from the knowing. You know, it’s a very simple analogy, you know, the, let’s say, somebody has the world’s most valuable Ruby, but it’s still rough cut. It doesn’t maybe they don’t even know what it is. So they have no value they got they own the Ruby, it’s worth billions of dollars, but they don’t know what it is. what value is that? Some expert, by geo geologists, biologists, your mileage just comes along comes into the hood looks at this raw stone wall. Do you know that that’s a very valuable Ruby? No, I didn’t know that. I’ve had that for generations. Suddenly, that knowledge, what does that knowledge do that that person is very ecstatic. His life has been transformed. Right? That’s a very common analogy, but it’s very true. So So what I’m saying is that is that the understanding of the reality of your own experience, the understanding that there is this field of consciousness that can illuminate the gross reality of the subtle relative, everything in your life can enhance it, that knowledge alone, is worth having wakefulness, for? It’s quite apart from the fact that makes you happier.

Rick Archer: Can one person help wake another person up?

Harri Aalto: Well, I get, I had a lot of people say Help help, you know, can you do something for me? And in the same way that I’m, you know, we’re talking about understanding and knowledge, how understanding enhances experience that’s already universally available? Yes, understanding can help. But everybody, everybody’s different. Right? And, and people ask me, so so if you having all those experiences, why don’t you, you know, change the world? Why don’t you enlighten this person? Why don’t you do this? Think about it for a second, if there was such a human being on Earth? Who could, let’s say, let’s say you could enlighten me, that would upset the entire fabric of creation, all the it would probably what, if there was a healer on Earth who could heal everybody, that’d be the end of civilization as we know it, everybody would get healed, and it’d be lines up going around the world to see this person. But that’s not how it is we have our own lives to live. Now. Miracle, as far as I can see are fortuitous events that happen at the right time to the right person. They don’t happen randomly. I can certainly say, Hey, Rick, you’re awake. And you say, Oh, that’s wonderful. But nobody has had that the Rishis the gurus, the greatest people on earth haven’t had that ability.

Rick Archer: Yeah, but there are great many famous and some knots of famous people who seem to have a knack for being catalysts to others awakenings, you know, many people awoke in the presence of Ramana or Papaji, or some of the contemporary teachers, Adi Shanti. Pamela Wilson, you know, various people have a pretty good track record in terms of catalyzing or facilitating a spiritual awakenings among those

Harri Aalto: who come to them. I agree with that. Yeah, let’s pure consciousness is universal. It’s in around through everybody. You can’t, it’s there. Some people are aware of it some people so so let’s say a person comes along who actually has this experience, and he begins to describe it. Let’s say you’re close to that experience, but you don’t know what it is. It’s there. You know, you don’t know it’s there, but it’s there. So the right person comes along at the right moment and starts to ask Bing it to you. So suddenly the, the, the jewel, the the that was that’s in the rough stone is described to us as what it really is yes, you can Oh yeah, I get it, I get it. That can happen, of course. And it does. But when

Rick Archer: you talk in terms of description that has more of an intellectual connotation, you know, you’re clarifying somebody’s intellectual understanding. But how about the transmission quality? You know,

Harri Aalto: that’s what I’m saying from an an awake person does does not talk intellectually. He talks, he may give lectures and talks, yes, but it’s not intellectual. If the person is awakened, he speaks from his experience from his experience, right?

Rick Archer: So and so what I’m saying in terms of what he can convey to others, and how he can convey it, he can use words. But you know, a lot of teachers say, Well, it’s my silence, which is the real teacher here, my words are just sort of filler. And what if you’re getting anything from me, it’s because of sitting in my presence and there’s a kind of a contagiousness to the sitting in the presence of an enlightened person a transmission, which is supposed to be conducive to awakening.

Harri Aalto: If a person is awake, his speech is the speech of Enlightenment. It’s not just a transmission of an emanation. His speeches, the same speeches can convey the subtleties of, of pure consciousness of awakening to somebody else, of course. But if that person isn’t in the right, at the right time, in the right moment, otherwise, a teacher like that could enlighten everybody they can’t.

Rick Archer: Well, yeah, I mean, obviously, they can’t have 7 billion people in their immediate present or even 10. And even if or if they, if they have 10, let’s say, Those 10 are going to be at varying degrees of receptivity. To my point, yeah, yes. Well, like I’m gonna use the example of, you know, a log that’s burning brightly, we can kind of Ignite other logs, if they come close to it. And you know, maybe one log is dry and ready to burn other loggers kind of waterlogged and soggy. And it’s not going to ignite very easily. But you know, if a log has the readiness to burn, it’s, there’s a greater likelihood of it igniting in the immediate presence of an awakened person than if it’s just off someplace without without such a person to sit with.

Harri Aalto: I do have trouble with saying that all you have to do is sit near person and that person will get okay. That’s

Rick Archer: yeah,

Harri Aalto: that’s a little bit far fetched.

Rick Archer: And ost teachers don’t say that, either.

Harri Aalto: That’s right.

Rick Archer: You know, you don’t say, Well, you know, I can only do so much.

Harri Aalto: Yeah, you gotta do something. Yeah. Practice, do do some meditation. You have to be ready for it. I mean,

Rick Archer:  yeah.

Harri Aalto: Okay.

Rick Archer: Yeah,

Harri Aalto: I think we’re in agreement on that.

Rick Archer: Okay. Okie dokie? How’s it possible to be eternal or experience infinity, since everything seems to be ending?

Harri Aalto: You know, that brings up the whole thing of the the ever changing relative, you know, our daily life seemed to be nothing but a series of events that began go somewhere in end, like that’s relative Life, the Universe function seems to function that way, right? There’s a beginning, a middle and an end now. And then this whole concept that many organizations or spiritual movements talk about that it’s all an illusion, it’s all why go there. And in terms of a person who doesn’t have pure conscious, I totally agree. If you don’t have the pure consciousness established 24 hours a day, then relative appears to be not worth much, you’re, you can become afraid of it because it’s always ending and at the end of your life, you’re gone, it’s over. Now, a person who wakes up has the experience that at first, there’s a separation that takes place. You know, in some organizations, it’s called Cosmic Consciousness, there’s a big separation. Pure consciousnesses is separate from your activity separate from your senses, your body, your environment, your friends, the world. It’s just separate. It’s just there. You don’t really know what it is. It’s just there itself, awareness itself. It knows itself, but whoever you are, doesn’t know it. Okay, so from that point of view, it looks like an illusion. It feels like an illusion. Now the world of the world does, she has a relative life seems like it’s a waste of time. Now, as that separation becomes less and less, let’s say, let’s say pure coin, just say it’s here. And let’s say the rest of life is here and it gets closer and closer and closer call this a light called pure consciousness and light. It begins to you begin to recognize this as the kind of you hear it gets bigger. In bigger than this, that’s a dream, not this is not really happening because it’s already happened. You’re already one state of consciousness, but you’re realizing that and as you realize, the fundamental experience of pure conscious, it begins to unite everything on the understanding the deep understanding level first, okay? There’s a growth of consciousness in terms of the illumination, or the, or the, or the expansion of the self, the expansion of the self means that the changing the value of the relative begins to be known, and its non changing value. There’s a non changing. Remember, the pure consciousness is everywhere, right? It’s not just here, it’s everywhere. Now, the trick is that, or what certainly has happened to me. And certainly, it’s been my experience that neither of the neither the experience of pure consciousness or the experience of, of daily life relativity, neither of them actually change in any way. The absolute doesn’t turn on absolute, the relative doesn’t turn, non relative, it continues to appear to change the illusion is that there’s the appearance of change. It’s an illusion, it’s an appearance, it doesn’t really change, even the relative doesn’t change, because it’s permeated by pure consciousness, infinity the absolute. Now, where I might differ from other people is I would say that even the silence is a field of fluctuating knowingness. It’s actually the ground state of, of all relativity, if it’s a ground state of all relativity, then the relativity is also absolute, is also not changing is also eaten every single moment in the world, whether it’s spiritual or New Age talks about you can you can wake up there’s there’s a field of infinite life, eternity, you can experience the UPS, what does that actually mean? It means just that there is a field of it’s not absolute life, or the absolute, absolute life for some nebulous, huge unbounded nothingness, it’s at its infinite life for you. And for me, and for everybody else, if they can realize that the, if they have the experience of wakefulness, then ultimately you begin to realize that everything is that including the small self, including the census, including the body, including your friends environment, and all of that is infinite. In the end, all of that is, has infinity as its base value. Now, as long as it’s something you don’t know, then you might as well say you’re not, you’re not you don’t have an eternal life. You have an eternal life, if you No, it is not the absolute that has the eternal life. It’s something else. And my experience, I went through maybe a decade where I was looking well, there was had this huge abstract experience and I was looking for, or who’s having that experience? Where is he? Where’s that person? Somebody’s having? Is it just unbounded, absolute knowing itself? Because that was my experience was kind of a unified knowingness that everything was unbounded. Everything, the relative, the subtler relative, Gods angels, everything all unbounded, pure consciousness. But who was having that experience? Didn’t seem to be anybody there? Nobody home that went on for about a decade. And what happened over time? It’s hard to put into words what? But let’s try that unified, abstract experience started turning more concrete, more physical. Somehow, I can’t tell you how. But my senses began, the fun began to function and move within that absolute without coming up. It didn’t disturb that absolute consciousness, that absolute fluctuation of wholeness. Even the census did not disturb that. And soon as that even I had an inkling of that, so aha, that’s where the eye is. That’s where the big is the little lie is the middle sized. All the the knowingness that I’ve had for all these years, actually has a center has an experiencer and an I realized in a flash and had the experience between this words now, between the absolute and the relative is that, that, that, that experience or that holds them together and holds them apart, sees the absolute sees the relative. At that point when the when the knower mind or your knower, you are a knower, and there’s a kind of a point value personality there, as well as the universe, all this, that no work, as if ties the entire experience of togetherness, the all the layers of creation suddenly say, by him that they all are that, so nothing is excluded. the experiencer says I am pure silence. I’m also pure dynamism. At this point, the relative life daily life takes on the same quality, even though it remains exactly the same. On the understanding level, sensory level experience level, the daily life takes on the same value as the absolute while remaining. Regular life no longer seen as an illusion, seen as the full, fully glorified aspect of the self. One of the fully glorified aspects of the oneness there is there is one state of consciousness. I agree with that. But that state of consciousness recognizes, and is all the different layers as well.

Rick Archer: This reminds me, last couple of weeks, I’ve interviewed a couple of physicists one, Peter Russell, and he wrote a book called from what was it from science to God. And then last week, Bernardo kastrup, who wrote a book called Why materialism is baloney. And, and with both of them, the discussion came up about the mechanics of creation. And, you know, on the one hand, we, you know, we are always saying everything is consciousness, it’s all consciousness. And yet, you know, there’s how does consciousness become flesh and paper and metal and, and stars? And, you know, or does it? I mean, it because if you look closely enough, you find that those things are also very insubstantial. You know, this appears to be a hand, but if you get down to the subatomic levels, there’s, it’s just, you know, probabilities have entered, you know, and there’s really nothing going on. So, what are, and Bernardo actually tried to distinguish between inanimate things, such as cups, which there’s nothing that it’s like to be a cup of cup has no self consciousness, and animate things. And we got into a debate about where you draw the line between what’s alive and what’s not live, and so on. And he used the analogy that, you know, it’s all water, and a whirlpool. And water is nothing but water, but it has a sort of an existence as a whirlpool, and it has this sort of self reflective quality where one side of the Whirlpool could reflect the other side of the whirlpool. Whereas he distinctions with something like a cup, which has it’s more like a ripple in the water, it hasn’t become a whirlpool, so it has no self reflective quality. So the question is, how, if everything is nothing but consciousness absolute? And this is perhaps an eternal question, and the the great mystics had been baffled by, you know, the mysterious nature of Maya, but how is it that that, you know, consciousness absolute, appears to assume form without actually losing its quality as consciousness absolute, because if it can lose it, if for if consciousness can become plastic or metal, then it changes. And if it changes, it’s not unchanging? You know, it gets converted into something else? So it’s relative, like everything else?

Harri Aalto: Yeah, that’s true. That’s, that’s a perennial question. Right. And, and along, I started writing about just that thing, how does the absolute managed to remain absolute, in the process of becoming the objective world? And I’ve written maybe hundreds of pages of stuff on that. And let me see if I can summarize it. With my experience of that. Yes, there is a process the reason I call experience pure consciousness on its fundamental level, because it’s conscious, conscious of itself. I also call it pure intelligence, intelligence as a quality of intelligence. That intelligence is the is let’s call it the packets of knowledge that have imbibed in them with a seed values of relativity now relativity doesn’t have any validity on that level, because on the level of the primary level of pure conscious, everything’s eternal. It’s always fluctuating. In Indian terms. It’s called the Veda, right, the fluctuations of the universe of consciousness and individual consciousness. Now, those packets are those reverberations of knowledge, how they become how they objectify from this subjective field of consciousness, how did they become? I’m loath to say this because somebody that accused me of being annoyed all, but I see that I can see how that takes place. I wasn’t going to cover it in this meeting. Well, I’m gonna do a little bit of that. Now. I got to a point in my experience, where there was nowhere else for me to go to understand it other than because, you know, I was looking for how to describe that entire process that I’m experiencing how pure consciousness becomes this moving consciousness becomes a subtle relative consciousness and becomes this gross relatives, SSA. And it doesn’t really become that because it’s already that there’s the answer, it’s already that that’s the answer to, if a person’s consciousness is aware of the subtle, the pure, unbounded consciousness, aware of the subtle relative fluctuations of consciousness intelligence as it’s fluctuating, as it’s becoming conscious, more objective. And as as it becomes the, the world of the natural law are the let’s call it the natural elements, sun, air, water, all those elements of nature that make the body, the sun, the air, all of those things, there’s a process that’s taking place, it’s maintaining you, those are also part of the process. And once you get to that level, it’s only one little step into the gross relative. So you’ve got this continuum of consciousness, it can be seen it can be known. Now, the ancient Indian wishes, of course, describe this in the in the four primary vaids. I was going to talk about that. All right. So they have Rick vaid, some of adlg Vedas and a term of eight, those are the four. Keep in mind, I’m not a Vedic scholar, I’ve had an experience and I, I put it into this framework for understanding because I haven’t found it anywhere else. So Rick Vedas described as there’s a word costs on heeta. It’s pure consciousness, pure unbounded consciousness. That’s our reach is called the Rick Vedas. Everything is included in this, in this, Rick Vaid. Some of it is the movement of that consciousness, I see the movement of that consciousness. It’s as if part of that whole pure consciousness, it’s imbibed in it, it’s everywhere. The self awareness of, of this abstract field of consciousness is cold, some of it, it’s also extremely blissful. But the movement of consciousness is already somewhat physical. It’s moving, it’s fluctuating it’s doing. And there’s that word they used last time, you know. So some of the movement of consciousness is one of the aspects of the experience that I have, I see consciousness, I see its movement. Some people will immediately say, pure consciousness can’t move, because it’s pure and bounded and movable. I agree. It’s pure, unbounded removal, when I also experience a field of consciousness that actually moves along with that does not obscure, neither is obscured. And then there’s the then there’s the Tarva, vade, which is the subtle relative Indian terms, it’s the Deva tongue level, in Christian terms of movie the heavens, and all the angelic beings that the mystics have described. And so it’s a continuum. There’s this pure consciousness, there’s this moment of pure consciousness, then there’s the celestial, the divine level, the subtle relative level one continue. Now, you might notice it’s going from the abstract, to the moment. And that’s a little more concrete than the abstract going towards the moment going to the subtler relative level. That’s more concrete, but it’s still divine, not in most people’s consciousness. Now, if you’re just lost in the field of that, you know, angels and guides and then that’s no good. It’s no better than being lost in relative life no better than being lost in the absolute where nothing exists. Okay, so the fourth field of aid would be the type of aid. That would be a description of the relative.

Rick Archer: Yeah, Jordan haven’t mentioned, I think you already mentioned that. I’m

Harri Aalto: sorry. You’re Jeremy, this is the subtle, relevant, yes. And then the type of aid would be the last would, it would it’s, it’s a description of the let’s call it just our daily lives, universal existence on the gross level. So in, in Vedic terms, or and which actually relates to my experience very clearly, is that there’s these four levels. Now, they’re not independent levels. They’re not 1234. They’re one field of consciousness. So I agree with that. There’s one consciousness. And for the sake of articulating that one consciousness for the sake of understanding now, here’s the jewel again. Okay, this jewel has value because it has all this detail has this wonderful detail has, it has this unbounded quality has this movement quantity, has this divine quality and has this relative quality, all of which makes one eternal, unbounded consciousness, which is what eternal life is all about? You can’t change that. That’s a reality, everybody will eventually get there.

Rick Archer: Let me ask the same question in a slightly different way. One thing I kind of ran into with Peter Russell, I think, if I understood,

Harri Aalto: we only gone through three questions.

Rick Archer: I brought my pillow on my blankie and my teddy bear. The quality of intelligence, I mean, long before there were living beings who could have discussions like this, there was an evolving universe if the Big Bang Theory, correct, yes, and stars were getting formed, and stars are exploding and reforming and heavier elements were getting created. But if there had been anyone there to really examine it closely, they would have seen that all these processes were being carried out by very profound and precise laws of nature, gravitation, and electromagnetic, you know, law, you know, all the laws of nature that physicists currently understand. So it didn’t take any kind of, you know, biological life to conduct into understand all that. And even now, you know, things happen in the world without biological intelligence, there’s an intelligence governing creation itself. And biological intelligence is just one expression of that. So what fascinates me for some reason, is that whole issue of intelligence consciousness, the word consciousness has kind of a plain vanilla connotation, aesthetically, it’s flat, you know, nothingness. But but it’s far, it’s so much more than that, obviously, if we look to the display of it, in creation, there’s, there’s just so such infinite intelligence, in you know, governing every tiny particle, and every vast, you know, Galaxy, and everything in between, it’s one seamless orchestration of, of intelligence, everything infinitely related and infinitely correlated. So how does that kind of relate to your experience of the actual mechanics of what is going on? And what what is this intelligence, both in its universal value, and in terms of its individual agencies, the expressions of that intelligence which which conduct the manifestation and governance of creation?

Harri Aalto: That’s a pretty heavy question.

Rick Archer: And I want a heavy answer.

Harri Aalto: you say, Where’s the biological component to this? Apparently, you know, mechanical, almost random.

Rick Archer: No, no, no, not random. Nothing’s random.

Harri Aalto: All right.

Rick Archer: And, and, and biology is just a kind of an offshoot of a much vaster intelligence which exists whether or not there’s any kind of biological expressions, you know, whether there’s human beings or newts or anything else there. The universe is this sort of beautiful display of intelligence. And you’ve described to me in the past, you know, experiences of deep laws of nature that are actually responsible for the whole, the whole show.

Harri Aalto: Well, that’s what I was going to get to is that, that soon as you say, consciousness, soon as you say intelligence, I immediately have the experience of let’s call it cosmic biology. Okay. Let’s put the word God in there for a moment. And you could take the word absolute, and exchange the word, put God there. You know, in this age, we don’t talk about God as much, you know, we have more scientists, they’d like to talk about the absolute and the vacuum state and all these, these things. But I, when I listened to a physicist talking to particularly a physicist, it’s really kind of delving into it, it sounds very much like what I’m experiencing. Now, if I were to describe my experience in terms of light, or, or, or, or movements of content, I can see the structure. And it looks like all those terms that physicists use, I forget what they are, but you know, quantas of light

Rick Archer: Yeah there’s force fields and matter fields and all that quarks and leptons and bosons, and all that stuff.

Harri Aalto: It looks exactly like that to me, right now, if I were to describe my experience, to me, I would see pure consciousness. And I see all these, these sheets and waves and points of light, they’re fluctuating, and they’re there, they’re crossing each other, there’s points where they crossed the spiral out, this field of unbounded consciousness, which doesn’t move isn’t movable. On its surface, as it were surface being everywhere. It’s not one dimensional, it’s all dimensional. There’s this field of fluctuating sheets and waves and points and twirling wrecks of light. I can see it, I can see it now. And I see these going into those four fields that I talked about. They bifurcate as it were, they get more and more complex. But the complexity becomes more simpler and simpler. Because all these little points and fluctuations, they make a wholeness. It’s like your body, you know, it’s a kind of a simple on one level, it’s a simple unit, we’re all the same. We’re running around doing what we do. We’re a body, it’s infinitely complex, yet, we’re still just, you know, I see a guy walking down the hall, How simple is that? Or whatever, right? It’s one body, in the same way this pure consciousness looks to me like a cosmic body, oh, my god. How can I say that? And in some way, little me. Little you were related to that, that I don’t want to use the word entity. But let’s, let’s say just gone. Let’s just use the word God. We’re related to God. And

Rick Archer: Tom Traynor used to like to say, sense organs of the infinite.

Harri Aalto: And you could say that, in a sense, you’d say the, the, the elements of nature, or the functioning of the sense organs of God, lets you know, is one way of talking one way of talking about it, right? So what we’re saying, describing this absolute experience, and those four levels that I talked about, they’re not levels independent of each other. It’s one continuum of consciousness. So

Rick Archer: when you’re seeing all these streams and points of light intersecting and doing all this stuff, it’s not like just some kind of, it’s not random. It’s not random. And it’s not some kind of meaningless visual hallucination. You say you’re actually some people might cheat. might say, Yeah, but you’re saying that you’re actually those are actually the mechanics of perception. I’m, excuse me, the mechanics of creation, that your perception is allowing you to, to apprehend to whatever degree maybe it’s not 100% Complete. Maybe there’s even more going Yeah, I’m sure that you’re you’re kind of tuning into something that is sort of integral to the manifestation of the universe on an actual visual level.

Harri Aalto: Yes. And it’s undeniable to me personally, because my daily life is not disconnected from that. Subtle, relative, subtle relative is not disconnected from from this absolute field of pure silence. They’re there. They’re simultaneously. I can’t deny that they’re there. And it’s not just, it’s not just a knowingness, it’s a visual, auditory, sensory. I can literally taste it, even all the senses are part of that. That’s why I like the word wholeness. And I know that it might be hard to understand, but how can you imagine if you if your inner experience is not inner experience, it’s actually inner to outer experience and that inner to outer experience includes pure consciousness, the subtle relative and the gross font of all in one continuum, then, then the knowledge dawns on you that what isn’t absolute. what isn’t absolute Nothing in this, this fluctuating field or this beautiful field eliminates pure consciousness. Pure consciousness does not eliminate those subtle fields nor the so called gross relative which have ceased to be gross as has now become fully, it’s found itself and its full value. And the full value of the relative, it’s the full value of the subtle relative, the full value of the subtle relative is the full value of the Absolute. And I hear you, I loved your analogy at the beginning, you know, you know, describing the ocean, yes, you’ve got all these things swimming in the ocean. The ocean is not disturbed in any way by all this stuff. And they’re not distractions to the homeless, quite, quite on the contrary, what I found, my experience have evolved over 40 years, it didn’t happen overnight. Every time I had a new experience, and maybe I’d get lost in it for a little while I say, Oh, this is so beautiful. This is glorious wall, man. But it was like a puzzle, another puzzle piece. And what happens when you see a puzzle piece put into a puzzle, you see a bigger area, right? So it reveals more of a puzzle, you see more of the scene, what, or whatever the puzzle is, and then you there’s five pieces missing there, and you suddenly have this experience, or you find the puzzle piece. But then then what happened was suddenly there’s a panorama. So in a sense, all of this, after a certain point of clarity of consciousness, everything that happens, expands the field of unboundedness. And of course, it’s already unbounded. But since my physiology and my senses and my body’s only having a certain amount of that, it can keep growing. Well, you know, how to how to put that,

Rick Archer: like you’re saying the very beginning. You know, the Infinite is, is already infinite has always been infinite unbounded and says, Oh, but it’s a matter of how much we can appreciate it. And you don’t necessarily go from A to Z and one. Second,

Harri Aalto: that’s right.

Rick Archer: It’s a it’s a progressive. Yes, yes. Yes. And there’s always more to appreciate.

Harri Aalto: Yes. Let’s take a few more questions since so I don’t get a million questions is why didn’t you answer my question?

Rick Archer: I think we may have answered this one. what is this illusion that everyone?

Harri Aalto: Yeah, let’s see. Yeah,

Rick Archer: I think maybe the next one, describe what it means to be awake to pure consciousness. Think you’ve already done that?

Harri Aalto: Yeah.

Rick Archer: Okay. Well, let’s do this. Let’s touch on this one just a little bit more. Why do you always talk of subtle layers? Are they not just another form of illusion?

Harri Aalto: Yes. And they are another form of illusion, if that’s all you’re experiencing?

Rick Archer: Yeah.

Harri Aalto: In other words, get

Rick Archer: hung up in them,

Harri Aalto:  if you’re hung up in a celestial or some, some angel or God or something, and all you have, is that experience? Or, or, or you have some psychic power or whatever. And that’s what you have. Pure Consciousness is not there. But this, this wonderful or not so wonderful experience is there. If you’re lost in that experience, to the exclusion of pure consciousness? Yes, that’s that would be the same as being what? Running around the relative and not knowing the not having that experience of pure consciousness, same thing on the subtle level.

Rick Archer: And it seems that by the same token, you can get lost in the absolute and there’s a there’s a phrase in the Upanishad which says, in the blinding darkness go those who worship as it go into binding darkness go those who you know, worship the relative even into even greater darkness go those who worship the absolute, you know, it’s used a slightly different terms, but it’s almost like if you become sort of a fundamentalist of of the absolute dismissing all the relative implications and levels of experience. There’s, that is just as incomplete as the people that was what people ordinarily do being hung up on the relative and unaware of the Absolute. If that if I’m interpreting that verse correctly.

Harri Aalto: Everybody has to realize he said, No, but you have to get full glory to the absolute right, because fundamentally, that’s the fundamental experience of wakefulness, is 24 hours a day pure consciousness. Okay, I’ll just go through this one more time. And I do agree with you in principle, but I would never put down the absolute because that’s what my experience started. And still there that has never changed. Pure unbounded consciousness is a field that starts small, it’s little, you know, it made me labors of its flavors taste may be a kid kind of knows it but doesn’t understand it. So that doesn’t mean much. And then perhaps you have pure consciousness at night sometime and you wake up in the morning and you say, I wish that I had all this stuff, but it’s dark, it’s small, it’s here intermittent, and over time, let’s say it becomes permanent. By the time it becomes permanent, you know, it’s a substantial, you’re walking down the street, you know, what is this pure? what is this thing it’s, and then it gets clearer and clearer and clearer and clearer. I don’t believe that clarity ever stops. Because there’s almost an infinite distance to go to the infinite. Now. Now, at some point, you realize that you are that unbounded field of consciousness. And then another point, you realize, not only are you that unbounded field of conscious, you will also it’s fluctuations here, it’s second phase, it’s movement phase. And at some point, you realize, not only are you on the subtle level of understanding and experience, that movement of consciousness, the, even the relative your daily life is part of the story of that consciousness. It’s at that point, you start thinking, well, there’s some kind of wholeness here, some kind of knowingness that includes everything. So yes, pure consciousness is fundamental. But in my opinion, in my experience, so it’s a subtle relative. So it’s the grosser anatta, the illusion, the gross relative is kind of an illusion, if you don’t have pure consciousness, and if you don’t see the connecting links between the subtlest to the grossest, that connecting links as the experiencer there’s so much talk about what there’s no experiences, there’s no i, there’s nobody having the experience. Well, go ahead. And, you know, die if you like, that’s what you’re describing. But you’re not describing that. You’re describing an experience, somebody’s having it. Now, there’s somebody that’s having that experience of the absolute is, is very, very, very subtle. Very subtle. It’s so subtle, but it’s not recognized as a nine. That’s how I look at it. And then ultimately, it will be.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I mean, there are a lot of people out there who says there is no I, you know, there is no person, and so on and so forth. And they go around teaching that way. Yeah. And so you’re saying that there is one, but it’s so subtle that you can miss it. Even if you’re in some kind of awakened state, I mean, people who are not in an awakened state, you know, they practice self inquiry, who am I? Who am I? Who am I? And you know, they never find any, anything substantial. They can say, this is the kernel of my existence, the eye. And you know, hopefully, eventually they arrive at unboundedness. And they say, Oh, I am that unboundedness. But you’re also saying that there is some kernel, there is some individual knower who stands at the door between the absolute and the relative. And that’s subtle and, and take some time to actually recognize if one ever does,

Harri Aalto: every guru, every teacher every movement. And throughout time from the ancient reaches to the present, teachers and the luminaries, they all open their mouth and say stuff, based on their experience, based on their experience. If, if the case was the nothing matters, no path so unbounded, don’t have to open your mouth at all. Yeah. But it’s not like that. It’s just not like that. On the on the day to day level, we all need a little help.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I mean, there are even teachers who say, you know, you don’t need teachers you don’t need, you don’t need techniques or anything that but keep coming to my meetings, they actually make a joke out of that. Okey Dokey. Does one need to meditate to progress and spiritual awareness is already everywhere?

Harri Aalto: It’s good question. We’ve kind of covered it, but, you know, meant, you know, you want to become a good violinist, what do you do your practice? Right, right. It’s really that simple.

Rick Archer: There are left side of this question would be if you’re realized, if you’re awakened, if you’re like, yes, you know, why would you need to meditate and not and you said in the last thing, well, I have a body and the body needs rest. But if you’re really established in pure consciousness, doesn’t that sort of silence of pure consciousness constantly sustain and refresh and rejuvenate the body without having to sit down and engage in a specific practice?

Harri Aalto: Well, here’s my hair white. Yes, is every guru or teacher I’m not a guru or that but they are. They’re aging and all age and die. Yeah. So yeah. It’s a good idea to, to close your eyes once in a while and have an authentic technique from you know, from good tradition and practice that because it rests the body. But apart from that everybody meditates. According to the level of the consciousness, so if you’re awake, your meditation is different than somebody who isn’t awake. There’s no denying if I close my eyes, I have different experience when my eyes are open, right? I’m not saying it’s greater or better, I’m just saying it’s different. And that’s enjoyable. Let’s enjoy.

Rick Archer: Here’s some points from our friend that we’ll talk about more later on. All right, but in a profound awakening, this friend of mine who I mentioned in the last interview, who sent in a lot of rather skeptical questions, and we’ll come back to these other questions. But in a profound awakening, there is not one shred of difference in experience with eyes closed and eyes open, no division between inner and outer, if all one’s mind stream has if one’s mind stream has been stilled, which is why meditation is no longer is no longer desirable or even feasible. It is clearly seeing an experience that there is all there is is the self silence and one is that where would one go for more of anything. Every moment is meditation, empty of self well, doing God’s bidding, awaken people who meditate are not talking about a compulsive formal meditation, they are just sitting in silence enjoying the view, a monitor is a vehicle and once the river has been crossed, the vehicle gets discarded, to want to go somewhere twice a day that is other or better than where we are, is illusion. If there’s an expectation and more or better or different than we’re still processing, only the mind craves more better and different. And thus, the seeking continues. The real reason why continuing to meditate while claiming liberation is that we feel incomplete. If further evolution is to take place it will unfold by itself. It’s not something we could make happen by formal meditation after a certain point. I think that does it. But he said well, that

Harri Aalto: that’s what we’ve been talking about is that that’s kinda like saying. That’s the opposite of what I’m saying. Just like, just like, essentially, the difference between advisory thinking and my thinking, and my experience is that I say everything has value has full value, eyes open, eyes closed, that tree out there, this route has value in terms of the South, when the experiences in the self totally within the self, then all the experiences are enjoyable, or not enjoyable, in terms of the South, in terms of the self means that you’re inside the ocean of conch, everything has come inside, it hasn’t been thrown into the garbage heap of life, it’s been absorbed into the wholeness of pure consciousness, and it exists there. As an experience. In order in order to become immortal, or have the experience of infinity, everything has to be included. There has to be an experiencer, there has to be an eye, there has to be a Knower. And if there’s a knower, if there’s an experience, if there’s any experience whatsoever. And it doesn’t matter how non dual you’ve become, you can see the wall and the tree and the car. I’m saying that all that experience becomes the self known as the self. But since it doesn’t disappear, it takes on its full value. It’s there anyway, if you say I am all this, but I am not all that. That’s certainly a legitimate experience. So of this state that I talked about the CC state. It’s separate. It has no meaning. Everything you kind of jumped into the absolute without incorporating everything else now. When I close my eyes is pure consciousness. When I open my eyes, there’s pure conscious when I sleep there spirit comes, it’s always there. It’s been there forever. In my sense, I haven’t. Okay, it’s always been there. Always, and never well, nothing disturbs it. If I’m in pain, it’s there. If I’m not happy, it’s there. If I’m happy, it’s there. It’s always there. So I agree with that. There’s nowhere to go. However, I continue to experience everything else as well. And everything else that I experience. Um It kind of adds to is with the N is part of the experience or all of the silence, who’s inside the silence. Inside the silence reveals what the silence is, the silence is non movement, movement, the subtle relative and the growth of all is one continuum of consciousness, one enjoyed, understood, experienced phenomenon of consciousness. And to say that, you know, I, if I, you know, there was there’s some somebody complained about because I move around a lot that guy can’t possibly have any experience and it’s twitchy, jumpy, jumpy, I mean, a person like that couldn’t possibly, well, we’re all different, you know, a horse doesn’t look like me, and, and Rick doesn’t look like we’re all different. And we have different personalities. And whether we’re awake or not awake, we all act differently.

Rick Archer: I mean, Nisargadatta was kind of jumpy himself. He was very animated, and, you know, shouting and just tickling and smoking cigarettes constantly. And He’s regarded as one of the most enlightened people. All right, good.

Harri Aalto: I did have one or two people say that, you know, God awful, you know? But, no, and there’s no, there’s no real answer to what she’s asking. Because what she’s saying is completely true on its own level, pure consciousness does exist, it doesn’t move, it’s always going to be there. Now, over the years, I realized that kind of, along with that pure consciousness, everything else is included. And you could say, you could say that it’s pure consciousness as well. But it doesn’t lose its value. It doesn’t go away. I filled my basket with it.

Rick Archer: Yeah, yeah, I thought of an example that might help to illustrate it, you know, using our ocean analogy from the beginning. You know, if one might say, Okay, if this person has realized that he is the ocean, then continuing to meditate is like taking cups of water and dumping him into the ocean, what does he expect to add by taking cups of water and dumping into the ocean, but the way we use the analogy, you know, continuing to meditate would be more like, Okay, I got it, I’m the ocean. Now, you know, let’s explore within myself and see what can be discovered here, you know, this fish in this this underwater, you know, formation, this coral reef, this, there’s a, there’s an endless world for exploration. And it doesn’t mean that you’re sort of becoming more oceany. You know, as a result of that explanation, you’re just becoming more intimately familiar with the finer details of your own self of what you already know yourself to be.

Harri Aalto: Okay, I like that analogy. And looking at it a little more fundamentally, is that, let’s say, let’s say you’re this ocean of consciousness, and you and you see all kinds of UC Davis or you see that you see that the ocean doesn’t move, but you see all this stuff that’s in it. The more of these points that you see, the more of them that are connected. They’re kinda like, they’re kinda like the microscope and telescope that looks at the, at the that is the self that looks at the wholeness, the self that looks at the ocean. And because there’s more of those points, and there’s more connected unity to the whole thing, you, you know, this is just words, now, it feels like the mirror of consciousness, can see pure consciousness, even bigger, even bigger than more of that structure of consciousness, you see, you’re kind of cleaning the mirror and you see more and more of his purity, there’s more and more of the silence more and more. And seeing more and more, the silence doesn’t denigrate or, or put away the Points of Silence or the movement of some Quite on the contrary, they complement each other. They, you know, there there’s controversy and in Vedic circles as to how do you explain the absolute how does the absolute manager managed to not eliminate everything because it’s absolute, it’s already everywhere. And the only way, in my my experience is that there’s something just as absolute as that equal to that which is pure consciousness. It’s the Knower. The Knower is unbounded. His fluctuations are everywhere. The same

Rick Archer: distinction here between the absolute and pure consciousness like they’re two different things.

Harri Aalto: No, two absolutes. Three absolute sorry, this. There’s no other way to put it into words. Let’s put it this way. If the if there was nothing but the absolute nothing but silence, you wouldn’t exist. That’s not how I experienced. There’s the silence. And then there’s this knower of the silence who is just as unbounded as the silence, just as unbounded. And because he’s just as unbounded, just because I’m just as unbounded. I can look at the silence and say yeah, that silence. Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s unbelievable. It’s always been there always will be. But so will I. How else can you say

Rick Archer: and that knower of violence, which is just as unbounded as the silence, that that is all one knower that you and I and everyone else are, are you saying that somehow there’s the Harri alto knower, and the Rick Archer Knower? And so on that are each just as unbounded as the silence.

Harri Aalto: Yes. The second thing? Yes.

Rick Archer: So the 7 billion unbanked trillions and bounded Knowers? Yes.

Harri Aalto: Yes. Well, you have to know it, to know it. But yes, yes.

Rick Archer: So I guess what you’re saying is that every life form, at the subtlest level, or at the junction point of, you know, the absolute and the relative or something contains an absolute body or an absolute form, which is, you know, unbounded and just as silent, just as unbounded as the absolute as it sounds. And that is the instrument through which the silence is known and lift. Yes. I think what I’d like to do now for the next bit, is, read some passages from posts that you’ve posted on your blog, and just, you know, use those as a springboard for discussion. Okay, and then maybe we’ll come back to some of these other questions again, shortly. So one of your blog posts is entitled, all inclusive awareness. And I just, I took snippets out of these that just sort of jumped out at me a little bit, it’s a, I am no more active with eyes closed or eyes open. Also, I am no more still with eyes closed or eyes open. You know, like that, for some reason, that jumped out at me.

Harri Aalto: And that’s the case, you know, this is pure consciousness, it’s overriding, overarching experience of pure consciousness is immovable silence, right. And that immovable silence, you know, this is these are just words again, have become kind of like the eye of the self, the ears of the self, and they, and whatever is seen her tasted and touched, feels like it’s part of that silence. Like that. So, when I opened my eyes, it feels I’m not going anywhere. I’m already there. I don’t leave from anywhere because I’ve already left. Yes, that’s, that’s the sense of an awakened person’s consciousness that everything’s been accomplished. Except all experiences or additions, they take that how do you put it? There’s an aspect of pure consciousness that’s active, that’s constantly growing, constantly, becoming clearer. And because of that clarity, like I said earlier, because of that clarity and the movement of consciousness, the silence of consciousness also becomes, appears to become greater like that bird analogy, clear blue sky, right? clear blue sky, nothing there, zero. You don’t see anything. But you know, it’s there. A bird flies across the sky or something, something across the sky, a plane, and suddenly, the sky looks immense now. And then, in terms of pure consciousness, the more of those points that you see those eliminations, those fluctuations? The bigger broader silence appears to be

Rick Archer: Yeah, like that. Even I get that. I mean, when I do something really dynamic, like traveling, you know, and I’m going through an airport or something like that. The airports are particularly like, because they’re so cool. Yeah. Yeah, and it kind of, but it seems like it stirs up the silence even more, yes, that you feel even more Contrastingly, this deep, profound silence in the midst of all that chaos. It’s pretty well what I mean yeah, and I would imagine you also even see the chaos and the people in the all the hustling and bustling, silence auto.

Harri Aalto: Well, imagine for a moment if you actually saw your consciousness, you imagined that that you can see silence see, what does it look like? It looks like a field of self awareness. the seeing of it is inside of the experience. And when the seeing of silence is Inside the experience, then it’s like a cosmic lie. It does not eliminate what, what, what you would say or somebody else might say is out there. It says, I am that also because you’re within the assignments, the silence is everywhere. That sight doesn’t come out of the silence when he’s looking at the tree or the bird or the other person stays inside, as it were. Okay,

Rick Archer: so this here’s a, an excerpt from this a little bit longer one from the an excerpt from the blog post entitled The wonderful diversity of unbounded awareness. I hear personified intelligence, I see personified intelligence, and interrupt me if you want to comment as I go, if I haven’t finished, I am aware of and participate in a divine social structure of divine beings of nature. We co-habit all the layers of creation in complete harmony and natural awareness, the fullness and complete divinity of this space is my oneness with God, with a divine social hierarchy that is kept lively by the dynamics of the eternal relationship of God and His creations, I realized that the absolute does not break up, and the relative does not emerge. I am both realities together in their fullness, and actually think there’s other parts from later on to the things that make you want to come in. And that first part

Harri Aalto: you would pick down. I like that stuff. what I’m talking about it, the subtle, subtle, let’s call it the subtle relative, this subtlest acts aspect of relativity, where consciousness is very lively, and these kinds of experiences can be had, and, and are being had by any any consciousness that dwelled in pure consciousness for some time, and become habituated to pure consciousness begins to see the subtle relative as well, the subtle or relative is extremely close to pure consciousness, extremely close it, it’s part of the fabric of pure consciousness. And in terms of God. You know, starting from the grossest level, people are devoted to God, right, they devoted Yes, give me this, I want my children to be happy, I want whatever I want. And then, as consciousness grows, you begin to sense on a more on a feeling level of God’s presence, right, maybe in your heart is, what is this feels like God is in my heart, or in my consciousness somehow. And then as that gets clearer and clearer. Perhaps the senses get involved in that experience as well. You know, great Christian mystics have described how they see the heavens and there, and the hosts of heavens and all these hierarchies. And so have the Hindus, and so have the Muslims, all of the and the Buddhists have all talked about these levels. I’m not talking about them as something that you go after. I’m talking about them as part of the experience of pure consciousness becoming clearer and clearer and seeing the fine fabrics of its own nature, your own nature. That’s all I’m talking about it.

Rick Archer: There’s something related to that, okay. I, from the same essay, I experienced innumerable beings of light flowing into a centered heaven that is my heart, a universal space of cosmic and individual dimensions. A huge, a huge cosmic cone of energy structured from millions of devas, while streaming into my heart, the heart of God, I experienced this one great Creator, the one great God shining self effulgent in the center of creation, what a wonderful secret.

Harri Aalto: Maybe we should have kept it yes, that’s my experience our and

Rick Archer: all the time. Or when you’re tuned into it.

Harri Aalto: One of the things that happens which is, which is kind of interest a little bit of an off shoot on this years ago, I’d have to go somewhere, you know, somebody asked me a question, I think, let me think. Yes. Okay. And then at least I could go there and I could find an answer. Now, in the last so many years, I don’t go anywhere, you know, whatever I experience comes out of my mouth. If it doesn’t come out, I don’t have it. Now, that particular experience is what to say about it. It’s there and the it’s simple, every experience is simple. You think It sounds glorious, and it is glorious. But it’s also so simple. It’s not funny. And I have to say at this point is that all these experiences that that I describe are, they’re infinitely simple. And the reason they’re infinitely simple is because they’re in terms of the self, which is the simplest state of awareness. Right. And if they’re in terms of the self, that means they’re close to the self, or they’re reflected in the self, or they are the Self, therefore, they are very simple. Everybody can have them, anybody can have, that’s what I’m trying to say. Anybody can have flashy experiences, but they come from that established state of silence.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I think the reason you’re saying that is that there’s a concern, you know, that people might get sidetracked by by flash. And just fascinated with that, while neglecting the simple foundation of it all. And, and I understand that, and people do do that. And but then the reason I bring up such experiences is that, you know, it’s a little bit different, I feel that sometimes, you know, Enlightenment or realization is dumbed down, in terms of being only that silence. And that’s all there is to Okay, and anything else that you’re kind of beginning to elaborate on in terms of subtle beings, or, you know, David’s and all this stuff. You’re just getting caught up in fluff, you know, you’re getting caught up in mind, candy, that that is not really essential and important, and you’re just going to distract people. So I’m just trying to create a balance. Okay, in that respect, I think a person can go to either, either extreme Yes, and, but a really kind of mature picture would be, yeah, the silence has has to be there as the foundation. And once we become really familiar with that silence, you may begin to experience all this stuff. So deal with it.

Harri Aalto: Enjoy. Yes, no, that’s perfect. I like that.

Rick Archer: Okay. So perhaps a lot of these are so somewhat along the same lines.

Harri Aalto: She did have one that is she

Rick Archer: okay, spiraling fields of light personified intelligence. Here’s, here’s a good one. Heartfelt clarity. This is from that essay. Recently, Catherine, my wife, experienced the tangible fullness and opening of her heart that has not diminished over time, her experiences had the extraordinary effect of now revealing both of our heartfelt heart centered physiologies In my awareness as the structure emergence and expressions of unbounded unity.

Harri Aalto: Yeah, well, one of the one of the qualities of one of the benefits of pure consciousness is there’s this quality of life, you know, I’m about Finnish heritage, so we don’t like using the word love. But yes, that’s the feeling, that’s the feeling is that there’s this within this knowingness, within this knowledge within this pure consciousness is the growth of love for not for, obviously, first for your immediate family, but even for your society, even for the world. And that kind of only happened to me in the last 10 years or so, you know, mainly I was, you know, most of my life I’ve been, I’ve wanted more and more knowledge, more and more knowledge. But then, as that knowledge got bigger and bigger than in terms of my own family, I noticed that there was just a much deeper feeling and say, When Kathy has a profound experience, that shared phenomenon of that experience, created a much you know, exponentially greater sense of a feeling of expanded love. That’s all that is. And, and, and that has grown in me, you know, the fact that I’m out here talking to people means that I’m wanting to share and I’ve really never wanted to do that in the past. I loved it on so called mountain top by myself. But I can’t say much more about that.

Rick Archer: Okay. Yeah. Well, if I read more experiences from your blog, it’s going to be more of the celestial BHO type of thing. Because I’m forewarned, Yeah, cuz I picked a lot of those things out. So here’s one I haven’t read in comment, and then maybe we’ll go back to some of these other questions. The structural intelligence, the very physicality of vibrating knowledge and love, I perceive as a highway between God and me, this solid connection structure from Universal, universal existence, and all of its layers, is known and experienced as one continuum of my individual to cosmic awareness. It feels and is So concretely solid, that it seems I could actually physically traverse or walk this road to God. It is thick with interweaving layers of knowledge, love and light that literally put me into the presence of God. God’s awareness is reflected in my awareness I experienced within my heart, my mind and my senses my whole body, a phenomenal co created divine terrestrial and cosmic hierarchy. That is precisely and perceptually related to all levels of my life, all aspects and functions of my body I experienced structurally and physically extending to this personified totality, this relationship unites all emerging events into one continual experience of individual unity.

Harri Aalto: I couldn’t say better myself. That kind of covers what we’ve been talking about, in many ways, doesn’t it? And, and I think the emphasis for me is that pure consciousness is not just pure consciousness, it involves the body, the senses, the mind, the environment, the universe, all of it is included in pure consciousness. The word pure means everything included to me, let’s call it unbounded consciousness unbounded to me, doesn’t mean exclusive to one boundedness only, it means inclusive of everything unbounded to me, means wholeness, it’s all there. And the body, our physiologies are part of that experience. And I guess many people kind of put the body down in the environment down in the gross realm with the I would say that the so called physical, our physical existence, the story of our lives, our daily activities, or physiologies, when that when those aspects of consciousness or those aspects of our lives are seen in terms of the self, that’s when awareness is at its full range. Pure Consciousness is one fundamental first step, perhaps a subtle relative, you start seeing some of that second step, you still have pure consciousness. Third step would be seeing everything in terms of the self, including the relative, and even a sense of the universal existences there. Ultimately, you sense I sense that the universe have actually the stars, the galaxies, the moon, the sun, I can feel their influence, even if I can’t totally see them or anything. I feel their cosmic influences. So all of that is inclusive in this huge sense of wholeness that eventually evolves, you eventually get to, everybody gets to Okay. All right. So let’s

Rick Archer: come back to some of these. Yes. Did I ask this one? what do you mean that the senses can experience the absolute? I don’t think I did.

Harri Aalto: No, but we kind of covered that. But, you know, that was kind of a surprise to me. You know, this is kind of interesting, because I think anybody who has the experience of pure consciousness actually see something only they don’t think of it as seeing they think of it as something. what is what how do I know pure consciousness is there? There’s some kind of sense that it’s there not. But thinking back on the witness when I first started having it. I wouldn’t have said that I could see it. But I could I know, I’d say of course I saw it. I saw it. It was there. It was a seeing as well as unknowing. And, and that’s what I mean, that kind of seeing that kind of hearing that reverberation of pure consciousness actually has a sound. The sound is the intelligence becoming manifest into the, into the objective world. So the senses get involved over time, it starts on a subtle level of feeling settled level of understanding, and ultimately, the senses get involved in the experience of even pure consciousness. Yeah, that’s what I’m saying.

Rick Archer: There’s a question about describing your experience right now, this minute and how it’s different than other times. But that kind of reminds me of a question, which I want to ask, which is that, you know, like, a couple weeks ago, you came over to my house and it took quite a while to give you directions to get to my house. It was sort of like kind of like trying to guide a blind man through a maze or something. And so and then you’ve told me before, like, you know, you can easily get lost driving around town or something. So what is your actual experience that makes it sort of difficult to do So with and you’d like in that panel discussion we had a couple a month or two ago you said, you know, when you got married, you needed to get married because you couldn’t even manage by you couldn’t write a check or anything. Kathy had to take care. So is there a sort of a sense that you kind of are so out there and, you know, reveling in cosmic realities that it’s, it’s really hard to deal with mundane reality sometimes.

Harri Aalto: No, I was always. I was always like that.

Rick Archer: Yeah, but you’ve always been reveling in. It was always, I’m not in such more of a personality.

Harri Aalto: It’s very much an idiosyncrasy of my life. Yeah, I was that way. As a kid, I don’t have a sense of direction. I didn’t have it, ever. And so it wasn’t something that developed as consciousness grew was always there.

Rick Archer: So in your opinion, then somebody could be in every bit as evolved the state of consciousness as you are, whatever state you’re in, and a lot more or a lot more and yet be an airline pilot, or absolute rain.

Harri Aalto: Totally knocked me. Don’t have me fly your plane or the timber tourism? You’re reading the ground? Yes. No, no, absolutely. As a matter of fact, if that’s their tendency, they’ll get sharper and clearer and more direction oriented. Yeah. I went the way that I naturally am.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Okay. So what I mean, yeah, so so just to just to beat home the point. So Enlightenment, is not in any way a impediment to functioning in the relative and a practical world. In you would even say it’s, it’s an aid to it, you know, whatever,

Harri Aalto: into whatever talent you have, if, if it’s kind of, you know, they’ll grow as talents. And, and maybe, incidentally, I’m not saying I’m particularly enlightened, I’m just telling you what my experience is. Yeah, yeah, whatever it is, draw your own from

Rick Archer: however enlightened one may get yes, you’re saying it doesn’t mean you’re, you’re just gonna be sort of non functional. And we’ve seen that, you know, all these stories about Yogi’s who just sort of, you know, have that people feed them in everything, or they’ll just go wandering off into the forest, and they don’t seem to be sort of really grounded. In the practical world.

Harri Aalto: That’s true. But if you know, I’m an artist, so that’s highly focused, you see how detailed my art is very, very tiny little things, I’m painting, extreme focus on very directionally oriented when I’m painting. So maybe, you know, it’s not like I’m not focusing, it’s just somehow my sense of direction, when I’m driving a car or something, tends to be I’ve never had an accident, or knock on wood, or whatever. So it’s not that I can’t drive it’s something you know, you know, I’m visual, you know, I look if they will remove the tree from a corner that I’m used to seeing a tree and it takes me years to recover from.

Rick Archer: Okay, good. what is the function of memory?

Harri Aalto: You know, memories are really interesting, isn’t it? Have you ever thought of your memory, you know, you’re a kid, you’re a teenager, you know, your guy, whatever age you are. And everything that you’ve gone through is just a memory in the past. And in the sense, the future is a memory to it in the sense that you don’t know what it is. But you you envision, it could be like this, and it’s all sort of, it’s sort of something you remember now, my experience with states of consciousness or a state, so my experience that I’ve had is that when I have them it’s like I remembered to have them. I remembered to have pure consciousness. I remembered to have this unified state of consciousness. I remembered that sight is part of its, there’s this quality to my experience. And I think everybody experiences memory. You’re remembering who you are. You’re remembering where you’ve been. You’re remembering. wholeness. It’s like it’s there. So somehow you lost it. Now you’ve gained it. And because you’ve gained it, it must have been a memory. Yeah. It is that sense.

Rick Archer: Right? You know, in the end of the Bhagavad Gita or Genesis latricia, my memory has been restored, you know, I know who I am now. Or whatever words you use,

Harri Aalto: it feels that way to me that that memory is being restored. Because the natural experiences that human consciousness is is unbounded is infinite. Where did it go? You forgot it. You forgot to remember that you’re awake. It’s that simple. Isn’t that? Isn’t that something really?

Rick Archer: Yeah. And yeah, it’s not. This could also be misconstrued. I mean, it’s not like you should walk around all day. See what got her try to remember the cell phone. Remember the cell phone? That’s some kind of like No, no, you drive yourself crazy doing that it’s not that kind of memory.

Harri Aalto: No, it’s, it’s something that happens naturally. And isn’t something that can be contrived or thought up? Right? It’s not that kind of memory.

Rick Archer: Yeah. And theoretically an older person who is starting to lose their memories and you know, can’t find their car keys, that kind of thing. They could very well be perfectly established and pure consciousness. It’s not affected by that kind of memory loss that comes with older age.

Harri Aalto: I don’t think so. And you know, this whole thing about appearance, what should an awakened person look like, you know? You don’t have to be intelligent. You don’t have to be talented. You don’t have to be anything specific to be awake. In wakefulness, it’s so natural that it’s available to anybody. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Okay.

Rick Archer: Think, tell me, if you think you want to add anything to this? How does the intellect or understanding help the growth of consciousness? That we haven’t already covered?

Harri Aalto: Well, I, I am, I do like the fact that that every experience has an understanding component to it. Within the experience itself, one of the joys of the experience is that you understand it. And, and you get it. And when you get it, there’s a sense of stability, and permanence and continuity, and connectedness between people and the environment. When the understanding says, aha, this is all part of that wholeness. So that’s what I mean by intellect.

Rick Archer: There’s a lot of teachers out there these days teaching, saying all kinds of things. And this question is pertaining to that? How would a person know that they’re listening to the truth?

Harri Aalto: You The sad thing about knowledge is that let’s say you’re in a high state of consciousness, and I’m in a lower state of consciousness, then I will hear what you say, on my level. And you will speak from your level. Now. Maybe they can go together a little bit, because you said something profound if I trust you. But generally speaking, the movement of consciousness moves from higher to lower, when?

Rick Archer: In a situation,

Harri Aalto: yes, that’s the way it is. And what can you do about that other than keep speaking, what you know, and and ultimately, or eventually, somebody will hear it? Or not hear doctor, they’re up to their lights?

Rick Archer: Yeah. And I would say something about this question that there should be some kind of resonance with one’s experience. You know, I mean, if somebody’s saying something, there’s, that’s supposed to be truth? If it is, there should be some kind of resonation, or some kind of connection on the level of your experience that that kind of verifies it for you or makes it seem right to you or something. You know, I mean,

Harri Aalto: everybody has some intuition, right? Yeah. And some deep in ground, even if they don’t know how to talk about it. Pure Consciousness is universal. Therefore, somewhere you have it. And you have intuition. Everybody has some intuition. And yes, you intuit that. Yeah. This person is saying the truth is not want to hear more of what he’s saying. I agree with that. Yeah.

Rick Archer: And there’s actually a flip side to that, which is that people get that intuitive Aha, when they listen to or read something profound. And then they think that that’s basically all there is to it is that intuitive? Aha, and they don’t realize how much vast potential for a maturation of actual experience there is.

Harri Aalto: We all tend to when we when we have let’s say, we have a profound experience. Everybody tends to say this is all there is right? Oh, by that by made it now.

Rick Archer: what is the process that allows love to grow?

Harri Aalto: You know, you know, when we were first talking about consciousness and the movement of consciousness, the movement of consciousness is the movement of Locke, it’s a movement of connected this connectedness means unity, unity means deep feeling. So, if consciousness grows, then the sense of unity grows, the sense of this movement of consciousness, this continuity, this love is a byproduct of consciousness becoming aware of itself, and you becoming the knower of that experience. The knower of that experience is the is the being is the individual that feels love. It’s not the absolute that feels love you as an AI, or the loving entity that can communicate and talk and, and, and help and whatever,

Rick Archer: I read a nice interview or a nice lecture by Maharshi. The other night that I had heard him, I heard the recording of 1000 times. But basically, he was saying that, you know, love grows by culturing the habit of not mining the crude and mining more and more of the subtle, you know, and just the, the sort of the subtler values get more habituated, and then her appreciation grows by virtue of that, and with more refined appreciation, love grows.

Harri Aalto: That’s essentially what I’m saying. Yeah,

Rick Archer: yeah. what is the dying process? And can we skip it?

Harri Aalto: Okay, the dying process?

Rick Archer: You’re the one who gave me these questions. Yeah, I

Harri Aalto: know. When I should have skipped, I think we should just skip. The the dying process is the is the process of being born. Waking up? That’s what the dying process in that sense. Yeah, yes, sure. That’s what it is. Imagine if nothing was passing, if nothing was ending, then everything would die, eventually, it would be there would be no rebirth. Now, to me, there is no such thing as. Okay, if you want to talk about illusion, I think death is the biggest illusion. And, and, and it’s an illusion, because human human beings can be immortal, they can, they can gain immortality

Rick Archer: in their physical bodies. Or on the level of consciousness.

Harri Aalto: There are many levels to the body. Okay. And right, so

Rick Archer: well, you’re talking about some kind of unbounded level of the individuality that interfaces with the pure silence. So presumably, it’s not only unbounded, but it’s eternal.

Harri Aalto: I’m not a big advocate of that the absolute is the experience are of unbounded infinity. I’m a component I’m a proponent of that the individual on on a subtle level can be and will be, and is eternal. Okay, on an individual has now an individual, in the sense that it’s an awake individual, right? That means immortality to me, that experience, sir, will never die.

Rick Archer: And even if it’s not an awake individual, I mean, how about my dog? I mean, is there some essence to the dog that’s eternal, and that essence is kind of kind of grow in its capacity to appreciate its its own eternal nature over

Harri Aalto: time? I believe that’s true, you know, get going on to a bigger and bigger level. And you know, how do you answer questions? You know, they say the universe will land eventually. But to me, it’s the light the universe goes to sleep just like we do. We wake up, we don’t know, what’s the next universe? Or the next one? If there is one? Yeah. Um, where’s it? Where’s the universe gonna go?

Rick Archer: And actually, my next question ties in with this next question, which is, how do I know you’re not making all this up? Which is that when you say a thing like that the individual is eternal? And we all go to sleep when the universe dissolves? I mean, is that just something you read in some book? Or is it? Is there some aspect of your personal experience that kind of substantiates that for you?

Harri Aalto: Okay. When you have the experience of pure consciousness, pure conscious, it’s unbounded, and then you and you see the fluctuations of them. And those fluctuations are also eternal those fluctuations are the universe I can see the universe in those flight intuitive and to a certain degree see it. Now, that’s, that’s just my little consciousness. How is it that I can see that I know that that the universe is my consciousness? I can see it. It’s an expression of your conscience. It’s an expression of mine in your kids can take it’s not the other way around. Right? It’s the universe is contained within Mike and yours to everybody’s human consciousness is the movement of consciousness is the wholeness of consciousness and is the material universe as well. The material universe is also part of that culture. Now, once you know that, you see that you intuit that. There’s no into the university that there can’t be. It’s eternal. If the absolute exists, then everything is absolute. If I if I exist, and I’m absolute, you can’t discount my body or anything and say, well, that’s not real. How is it not real if the absolute is everywhere?

Rick Archer: Well, let’s take this piece of paper, you know, it’s paper, but it’s also the absolute in its essence appearing as paper. And I could take a match to it, and it would be ashes and smoke and gases. But so it no longer exists. This paper, it has been converted chemically and to other things, which, and maybe the atoms themselves haven’t been changed. They’ve just been totally rearranged and dispersed. So there’s no no localized piece of paper anymore. It’s been turned into other things. Every atom in your body was once part of a star. And, you know,

Harri Aalto: get it gets awful abstract. Okay. I’ll just say one thing here. Yeah. In terms of pure unbounded consciousness, which is eternal, even the coming and going of the universe is like that. Right? That’s all I can say. So it’s coming. I might just say that rolls back again, I don’t know. Right. In terms of eternity. Even the universe is just a lack of time. Yeah.

Rick Archer: I don’t know if that answers the question. But it’s pretty abstract. It’s

Harri Aalto: very abstract.

Rick Archer: Okey, dokey. Why do so many people not have inner sight? And by intersecting assuming awakening? Yes.

Harri Aalto: Why? Why is that? It’s to a person who’s gone through the stages from Cade. Hold on. It seems inconceivable that, that it isn’t recognized more because it just needs to be recognized. Even the first stage of pure consciousness, why don’t more people have it? My sense is that everybody has it. And they don’t get it. They’re overshadowed. They’re looking somewhere else. It’s not even. Yeah, they’re overshadow. But I don’t even find that word appropriate, because I think it’s there. You know, I’ve described pure consciousness to many, many, many, many people. And they go, and like that it’s gone. But they got it for a second, because it’s always there. Yeah. How is that possible that they forget it the next second, but it seems to be.

Rick Archer: Now, if you’re watching the movie, you know, it’s like you’re really into the movie. And some guy sitting next to you could say, I look carefully. So that little sparkly thing there. That’s actually the screen, he has this big flat screen or you say, oh, yeah, I see what you mean. But wow, this movie, and I’m gonna keep watching.

Harri Aalto: Yeah. So I don’t I guess that’s why we’re here on earth to discover why we’re not having the full experience. And some people have it. And they want to pass it on to other people. Or try to.

Rick Archer: Yeah, and maybe it’s the nature of the age that it’s rare. It’s kind of off. Yeah, it’s an intense time we live in maybe, you know, 100 years, 200 years from now, it’ll become more common. And it would seem absurd to have conversations about it almost. Because it’s like everybody experiences it could be what do you think of free will? Or is everything determined?

Harri Aalto: Well, that was a question that came up from people more than one person asked me then. And, you know, if you think of any event, let’s say there’s an event. Like, we’re meeting here, it’s an event, it was kind of created by in a previous event by him. There’s always a previous event to the event. And you could let’s trace this event back in time to when we first met, it started there. But even before that, there wasn’t a move to Fairfield and yet, so there’s events, events, events, events, we go to the first event. That first event is pure consciousness. There’s a fluctuation in pure consciousness that started this event now that fluctuation is eternal. At that point, if you’re aware of that first fluctuation of this stream of events, and there’s no prior events, at that point, you could say you have free well, you’re at the hub of the wheel, you could go in a million directions. At that point, you have this sense that free will is dominant. You can go in any direction and all these streams start there. but only at that point where there’s no prior events. That would be an awakened mind. There’s no prior event. Yeah,

Rick Archer: that’s good answer. I think the hub of the wheel is a good metaphor. If you’re at the hub, you can go down any spoke yes, you’re already out on the spoke, you’re, you’re committed to that spoke, right. And there’s that verse in The Gita, which goes something like, for many branched and endlessly, divers are the intellects of the irresolute. But the resolute intellect is one pointed. So the resolute intellect is like you’re at the hub, you know, and from sitting there, you can move in any direction, you know, you’re not sort of already bound and committed to something that’s controlling you,

Harri Aalto: on a more mundane level. Think of it it all feels like free will, right? Yeah. Hey, I want to move my arm. Well, I decided to move that arm. So that feels like a one sided not to so I’m enjoying the sense of free? Well, perhaps it’s it’s based on previous events. But my enjoyment is of the free well, so that’s on a more mundane level. That’s how we enjoy our lives. We think it’s all free. Well, and in a sense, if we think it is, how is it different from free will?

Rick Archer: Yeah, philosophers have debated this one forever. But you know, from a practical, you know, from a practical standpoint, I think the point you brought out is really great, which, you know, a lot of people feel just sort of conditioned and bound, and they’re just rolling along and their life is out of control. But there really isn’t, in your experience. Now, isn’t there a real sense, sitting at the hub, sitting at the junction, the kind of the point at which all streams of life, you know, emerge from which they all emerge? Isn’t there a real sense of sort of being at the master switchboard? Yes. And there is this kind of freedom, not only in terms of subjective unboundedness, but even freedom in terms of decision making?

Harri Aalto: Yes, yeah. And it also feels like thoughts that you have on that level. Find their fulfillment? Yeah. And do they always, they have some take time, but they tend to happen. tend to happen

Rick Archer: more? Yeah, more regularly, for sure. Do you ever like the other day, my wife was on hold with some company. And they were playing this stupid song over and over again, she had it on speakerphone. And when she finally got off, the song was like, going through my head. I finally turned on Pandora, listen, some other music theorists do that. Do you ever have that kind of silly, you know, condition kind of stuff?

Harri Aalto: Not really. Probably in other ways? Maybe not with music? Yeah. But yeah, that’s funny.

Rick Archer: Yeah. what more can I do to speed up the process of gaining pure awareness?

Harri Aalto: The, you know, we talked about meditating. And, obviously, you know, eating good food, having a healthy lifestyle, all of those affect what you experience, right? Now. Fortunately, once you’re kind of you have a certain degree of wakefulness then influences you less and less, but on the path, as it were, then, for instance, a meditation technique. It’s certainly helped me. You know, when I started meditating, as a young man, immediately stuff started happening in a way, in a way that wasn’t happening prior to that, you know, understanding depth of experience on you know, all kinds of stuff very rapidly developed. You could I could see it, and feel it and know it. So yes, meditation, good food.

Rick Archer: You weren’t drinking a six pack and smoking a joint every night? That’s right. I wish that that kind of thing helps. I say that facetiously. But I’ve been in touch with people who are kind of interesting,

Harri Aalto: obviously not in Denver,

Rick Archer: or Seattle, I’ve been in touch with people who are interested in spirituality, and then you know, but they have a drinking problem, or they’re, they’re doing something which seems to be hampering them. You know, what, the same time like the elephant analogy, the elephant washes itself off in the river, then it gets out and throws mud on its back again, you know, so, obviously, people, we don’t want to be lacking in compassion for people who have problems with that sort of thing. But we also don’t want to say that there’s any the such things can be accepted as legitimate paths to Enlightenment I, Adam, I’m getting

Harri Aalto: no you’re getting, you know, my Yeah. My whole angle is understanding. Right, right. I mean, if you read my blogs or anything else, or how I speak, it’s I tried to convey my experience and hope that somebody gets something out of the end, invariably of the some hundreds of people who commented on my last talk quite a few of them Got something, whatever that something was? So, yes, that’s what I do. Okay.

Rick Archer: All right, I think we’ve pretty much covered all these questions. They’re all just sort of variations on on the same theme. So, back to some of the questions here. In terms of your own experience, did you ever have, in the last that interview, we talked about this experience you had, where you were wondering what all this unboundedness was that people were talking about. And then you had the experience of losing it for 1015 minutes. And you realize then, and that was horrible. And you realize that you’d actually had it all your life. And you go ahead here and say they

Harri Aalto: ever tell you the experience I had with this business, this word bliss, they get told

Rick Archer: that in the last interview, okay, I did that. And people were saying, You saying what is all this?

Harri Aalto: Well, but the point that we were making, then is the point I

Rick Archer: was gonna ask you, other than that, 15 1015 minutes, did you ever have a dark night of the soul, you know, any kind of like, really difficult time you went through where, you know, the worst

Harri Aalto: period that I went through, was in my late teens for about a year or two in my early 20s. When I had the separation kind of stuff, you know, up, up until that point, I had this kind of unity, of sense that everything was was was consciousness was light. And then it shrunk or separated into this kind of separation, where I was aware that consciousness was there, but I wasn’t part of it. Now, for about two years,

Rick Archer: you your individuality wasn’t? Are you talking about a cosmic consciousness kind of thing where there was a separation, and absolutely,

Harri Aalto: it was very clear. At night, it was 100%. There during the day, it was 100% there, but I didn’t like it. And it affected my, my happiness level, my contentment level, I wasn’t very, I wasn’t very happy that everything was separate. I wasn’t happy. And it was, it was a kind of a tense time for me for about two years. And then I had some dramatic experiences of subtle nature, that change that would be kind of, whoa, you

Rick Archer: want to tell us what those were? Might as well.

Harri Aalto: These kinds of more divine experiences. So the subtle relative experiences where the where I started having a long with that witness, that silence came this more divine level of experience, that was this more celestial level of experience until it became so intense that that I was almost lost in it when I watched it, because there was always that, that call it a witness, if you like, or pure consciousness was clear enough, and big enough and full enough that it didn’t disappear, along with this divine experience, or these celestial experiences. So they were there simultaneously. And so all that that disturbing separation disappeared, they were close enough, that the subtle relative this the subtle levels of creation, the heavens, the, the, you know, the beings that exist on those levels were there, along with this, unbounded this. Now, there’s an interesting point here. You know, there’s a question in here somewhere that says, these divine levels of existence, whether you call them Christian or Vedic, or whatever you want to call them? Do they have a purpose? You know, most people don’t think of them as having a purpose. But those those subtle levels of creation, or were the laws or the, all these aspects of nature function, how this is even in Christian, I shouldn’t say even in, in Christian writings of the the saints who wrote about those levels, they talked about, you know, these different levels, how this level creates this on the relative and this level creates this on them. So those subtle levels of creation also have their personifications. Those are the hosts that live on those levels now. I’m not in any way advocating trying to look for the sort of gold for them or use them as techniques. I’m just saying that these subtle levels of creation have a function there. There’s, there’s there’s how light how, how air, how Earth, how all the elements of nature, go through this process of becoming human beings is orchestrated on those divine levels. And in the future, if it’s appropriate, I’ll get more into that.

Rick Archer: Why do you hesitate?

Harri Aalto: Well, because it’s it’s it’s a field that nobody talks about and isn’t isn’t experienced by many people, it seems

Rick Archer: all the more reason to talk about

Harri Aalto: it well for in your case. But yes, you know, just want to leave something for the future right now. PT. Barnum, there’s, there’s, there’s a tremendous amount. But I want to emphasize that the reason anybody could see these or put them in their proper perspective is because there’s, there’s a consciousness level that’s silent enough, pure enough that all of this celestial stuff, and the gross relative stuff is incorporated into that experience. Okay,

Rick Archer: so you’re saying that the, the realization or perception of these subtle things is what kind of got you out of this dark night? If, and it’s, it’s interesting, because your experience follows the trajectory should tread


projectory trajectory,

Rick Archer: you know, it can’t say that area of the screen. But it follows a path that is very much in line with what Mark Maharishi Mahesh Yogi laid out in terms of seven states of consciousness. He said, You know, this cosmic consciousness state you’re established in and as pure consciousness and there’s a separation. And then the Gulf begins to be bridged. And there’s this sort of unity of God consciousness and then eventually you totally entity. And I don’t hear people talking so much about that unity of God consciousness. They either seem to maybe that sometimes I wonder, are people just in cosmic consciousness, they think it’s the final state, this you know, real Self Realization and separation from the relative or have they somehow jumped over leapfrogged over the God consciousness stage. And they they’ve arrived at Unity, everything in terms of the self without having ever explored, or however, having needed to explore all this kind of subtle relative that phenomena,

Harri Aalto: there’s two things that aren’t talked about much this state of celestial perception, in relation to pure consciousness, and then after unity experiences, after a unified wholeness of experience, there’s an that’s when the senses and the body and all these things move into the absolute and everything is seen from the absolute level. So those two areas aren’t discussed much. For some reason. Now, in order to, I don’t like to talk about the seven Maharishi seven states of consciousness, because the implication is that I’ve gone through those stages, let’s just say that I’ve had experiences that seem to correspond to those states throughout my life, why wouldn’t you want to imply that you had gone through them? Just because I don’t. Just because out of humility

Rick Archer: sort of thing.

Harri Aalto: I’m not really humbled by that. I’m just saying, Okay, I seem to have those understanding and experience I went, waking, dreaming, sleeping, right. But we all have it. And CeCe was kind of this kind of witness was there for years and years and years, didn’t think anything of it, I’ve been coaching, yes. And and then there were celestial experiences for many, many years. And then, and then that evolved into a kind of a unit of state that you know, Unity Consciousness, whatever you want to call it, which is there. Now, you know, I have this unit to the state. But those are really simple states of consciousness. Because they don’t really involve the senses of the body or the environment. In a profound way,

Rick Archer: the way you describe them, or the way you experience

Harri Aalto: the way experiencing, I feel my experience started. Once I realized that everything I am everything. So that’s when it got interesting. That’s when it got interesting to me. And we haven’t gotten there yet. And you know, a year or two from now, I’m actually, I can’t believe it. But I’m actually you know, like everybody else. I’m now writing a book. Great. So and I was, I will state all that in it.

Rick Archer: Okay. And then we’ll talk about that. Yeah. Yeah. Because I don’t even know what to ask. I mean, I’m just poking around here asking what I can. But, you know, I’m not familiar with your experience, obviously, as you are. So there’s all kinds of things you could probably say that haven’t even occurred to me to ask you to say, you know, and I can only

Harri Aalto: I’m trying to stay practical as much as I can, you know, it’s hard but

Rick Archer: well, you know, I always found when I was teaching meditation, that it was nice to give people a wide range. So even in an introductory lecture, I’d give some really practical down to earth benefits. And then I’d kind of take them on a vision of possibilities of ultimately if you develop this area to its fullest extent, what could it be? And then I’d come back again to some none Other areas really down to earth benefits, then take it all the way to its extreme. And that way, whoever sitting in the audience, you’re, you’re kind of hitting their their particular sweet spot. And

Harri Aalto: there’s millions and millions of people and teachers and gurus and movements and New Age, this new age that who are dealing with those evolving issues, you know, up to up to and including, you know, this first stages of Enlightenment. And there are very few people dealing with these tomorrow’s unity experiences or GC experiences, because

Rick Archer: there isn’t much of an audience for them or because there isn’t anyone qualified to talk about them. Yeah, I guess if there were much of an audience for them, then members of that audience would become the teachers who would begin talking about them. So you’re just saying it’s really not as relevant to our collective evolution yet, as it may be somewhat

Harri Aalto: just not that interesting. Because, you know, those those. Having said that, I am interested in that, because you’re totally

Rick Archer: interested in terms of that having been your own experience. Yes. You’re just saying you don’t feel too much inclination to talk about it, because there aren’t that many people who are really ready to hear it. That’s what it sounds like to me.

Harri Aalto: Well, but you’re more than I thought, I didn’t expect that. You’d be surprised. I didn’t. I didn’t expect to have such a response from you. I really didn’t.

Rick Archer: So is your book going to pull any punches? Are you really going to spank me to shave everything, you’re gonna spill all the beans ever again? Good luck with that takes people years to write books, but hopefully you have a fair amount of time to put into

Harri Aalto: five already probably written 20% of it.

Rick Archer: Okay, great. Okay. So, the C?

Harri Aalto: You know, I would like to say that, you know, one of the things what there was just one person said, said something like, Who do you think you are? And I don’t think I’m anybody special. And I don’t think I’m any different. I think everybody has the potential everybody has the ability to have every experience. If I can have it, anybody can have it. That’s my attitude. Okay. And it’s an it’s an honest, true attitude. I mean, look, I don’t take up any more space, I take less space off the news. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.

Rick Archer: Already, there’s more questions from this person who asked the question about why you would continue to meditate, it might might bring out a few new little nuggets. If I asked a few of these. We already talked about, you know, why continue to meditate. And just say, I’ll just throw out some of the stuff and see how you respond to it. True awakening or self realization is the end of all states. It’s knowing the self or Brahman as who we are, who we really are. Out of this awakening all the virtues unfold as old conditioning falls away. But there is no step by step process, no illusory self noting change. And let me one more paragraph that relates, while the revelation continues on the subtler levels, until all conditioned responses fall away, and we are fully integrated. And at rest in the heart of being, we don’t need to make any effort to have grace unfold. Once the opening occurs, the self reveals itself to itself quite naturally.

Harri Aalto: It’s true. I don’t have any problem. No argument with any of that.

Rick Archer: Really, whatever you’re doing is not in violation with the question she is raising terms of practicing TM siddhi program or you know doing this or doing that it’s all just okay?

Harri Aalto: what she’s saying is correct. But the implication is that stop you don’t stop doing stuff, stop enjoying stuff sit in the silence like Buddha.

Rick Archer: Yeah, there’s nothing more to explore nothing more to that.

Harri Aalto: I don’t buy right. Because I’ve always seen more. The silence is there. Silence is huge, unbounded. The movement of that silence, the revelations of that silence. Keep unfolding I see more and more even that even gross relative of I go to national parks enjoy myself. I don’t sit like Buddha at the base of the trail. I climb to the top of the train like everybody else. I have a good time. what I I don’t see advocating going into a retreat and staying there with the eyes closed for the rest of your life.

Rick Archer: Yeah. And I don’t think that’s quite what she’s saying. Because, you know, she has an active life and goes to the gym and has a couple of kids that she visits with and all that stuff. I think what she’s saying is is that, you know, if you really rest in the self, then there’s no seeking after, you know, more subtle experiences, which, and I mean, I agree with what you’re saying here, I’m not sort of arguing her position, I’m just using that as a, as a stimulant to bring out more stuff, what you’re saying. And you know, for instance, she said, there are 1001 experiences that Mother Shakti can show us. But truth is one, the yogic path does not necessarily lead to rest, the energy gets turned on and just keep circulating, only inactive grace can bring the energy or consciousness to rest. So but what you’re saying is you arrived at rest decades ago, and in that, and that state of rest can be a platform foundation upon which to enjoy further exploration that there is no end to exploration. It’s not like yeah, go ahead,

Harri Aalto: the waking up process doesn’t eliminate anything, and it just repeat myself. It does not eliminate the enjoyment of the relative, it increases the enjoyment of the relative, right increases the enjoyment of the subtle parameter increases the enjoyment of the silence, all of it is increased, increased increased. It’s like you’re owning more and more. You’re not owning less and less. If you have an experience of silence that overpowers you, overpowers, your intellect overpowers, maybe that’s a strong word or overshadows everything else, then I could see that yes, you would say, Well, you know, let’s just enjoy the silence. There’s nothing you can do. Now. There isn’t anything you can do to the silence, the silence is the silence, the sign of the pure consciousness is. Now the most wonderful thing about challenge is that is not silent.

Rick Archer: I think that’s the key point right there. You know, if silence is nothing but silence, and then, you know, once you’re established in it, then all this stuff about Davis and other experiences, it seems like a getting away from that pure silence. It’s a stirring up something which you finally had arrived at. And you know, pure silence, oh, boy, you’re there. Why stir it up again. But what you’re saying is that silence isn’t just silence, it isn’t just flat absolute, that it’s a field, it’s a world of possibilities. And if you rest there long enough, and start to see things clearly enough, you’re going to begin to want to explore those possibilities.

Harri Aalto: And I’m not even saying it that that you’re not seeing them in terms of the silence, you are seeing them in terms of the self, let’s call it the big self. Yeah, rather than show exploring

Rick Archer: these possibilities doesn’t take you out of or away from in any ultimately a big self. It’s not it’s not detracting or diminishing, or, and there’s not a sense of, I’m not going to be content until have explored all these things. It’s more like established, established and contentment, this is unfolding. And it’s a joy to to be a participant in that experience.

Harri Aalto: I do agree that

Rick Archer: I’m going to put words in your mouth, I’m just putting words everything

Harri Aalto: and everything in pure consciousness does unfold from within itself, of course. And there’s this, you know, you want to give it you want to give some validity to attention, then I’ll give some validity to attention if I put my attention on an aspect of understanding, then understanding unfolds, and it unfolds automatically. But it seems that the initial impulse has to be put there has to be started. Take a direction and all this stuff unfolds now. There’s an ongoing continuity to my life that has never stopped, has never stopped being clearer and clearer. Pure Consciousness has not stopped unfolding from within itself and become a greater and greater silence. I don’t usually even like using the word silence. Because silence, pure unbounded silence isn’t even an experience. You could say that’s a nothing state. How do you experience nothing? By the time you have an experience? There’s something happening? Pure consciousnesses there’s there’s something happening. That’s something happening is the movement of consciousness on the subtlest level. That subtlest level is enjoyable. the subtlest level percolates into the subtle relative percolates into the gross profit. It’s one continuum of expense, and, and it keeps unfolding. I mean, for instance, Think of think of, you know, I can’t, I can immediately go to Mars and see where or any plant in it’s and see that what’s going on there, right? So that’s an unknown, right? Pure Consciousness is kind of like that every time you something unfolds, it also unfolds a whole field that you haven’t seen before. There’s always more, it’s enjoyable. It’s just as enjoyable as going to the grocery store or eating good food or having a relationship with somebody or your family. Knowledge becomes the enjoyment aspect of your life. So more unfolds from within itself. You say, Oh, that’s pretty cool. And so more than four there’s an every time more unfolds is a bigger puzzle.

Rick Archer: And as it unfolds, it’s it’s still pure consciousness, right? Absolutely don’t like something has kind of split off from pure consciousness and become non pure consciousness say still the ocean, it’s still the ocean. It’s just like a new your, your to get back to the metaphor, we use the very beginning of the interview, you’re just you’ve discovered some new little coral reef to explore in in the same ocean that you are. And that coral reef is contained within you. It always has been. It’s just that you hadn’t really tuned in on it. And oh, and oh, no, no, it’s here. Let me get my scuba gear and explore this reef, because it’s part of me.

Harri Aalto: Let’s bring it even closer to home like what I’m doing right now. That’s, this is one of the fish in the ocean meet talking, right? Otherwise, why am I talking? Yeah, I enjoy it. I want to share it. You enjoy it. You want to share it? That’s one of the fish in the ocean? Yeah. Why should I start? Yeah, why should I start? Right? And why should? Why should not more and more people get it? Why not? Wait? That’s what it’s all about. Now, to say that you don’t have to do anything. Go ahead and do nothing, then don’t talk about me. Don’t make comments about me. If there’s nothing to do it Don’t leave me alone. And you know, you don’t have to believe me. That’s okay. You know what I’m saying? The reason we go forward is because there’s more to go forward to it doesn’t matter how awake you are. Why do all the Guru’s open their mouths and have people I’m not a guru, I just have an experience that I’m wanting to relate. And I enjoy relating it now. Yeah, I didn’t enjoy it as much in the past I do now. And that’s kind of what I do. And

Rick Archer: I think the person who’s asking these questions has a very, has the same fundamental motivation, I should, which is to share knowledge to clarify people’s misunderstanding to prevent people from getting diluted, or sidetracked or something, and she has her take on how things are, and it contrasts with your take on how things are. And I would love to be able to sit you down with such people and, and have you hash it out, and rather than me trying to play middleman, but it’s not working that way. But it actually does, you know, provide a stimulus for bringing out more information. You know, if you, if you just took questions that were all, we’re all just entirely in tune with your viewpoint, there would be certain areas that that wouldn’t come out. Yeah, that wouldn’t come out. And certain people who would be left out of the discussion, because they’re few viewpoint wouldn’t be taken into consideration.

Harri Aalto: Well, there is I agree, but it isn’t just this one person. There’s,

Rick Archer: there’s whole she represents a whole niche of the higher niches then there’s other niches of

Harri Aalto: the what is the silence people?

Rick Archer: There’s that. And I mean, the Hari Krishna, people are going to hear you one way and the Christians are going to hear you another way and say you’re going to hell. I mean, there’s all these people with different perspectives. And

Harri Aalto: you know, I agree with that. But the people you’re going to help other people who are receptive, it’s always like that. And, and Sheikh, this lady can help the people who are receptive to her? Yeah, right. And I don’t think

Rick Archer: that having you answer her questions can help people too. Because if there are people, because there are, as you say, there’s a whole sub category, there’s a whole niche of people who think a certain way. And personally, what me as an interviewer, I have a great, I’m in a great position, because I get exposed to a different perspective, every week, nobody can blame you. So I love kind of like, you know, having this flavor and this flavor and this flavor and just kind of like exploring all these different perspectives. And personally, I think that’s a healthy thing. And so, I don’t know, if you kind of like, it’s like the Democrats or Republicans, the Democrats are all watching MSNBC, the Republicans are all watching Fox News. So they’re, they’re each in their own bubble. And they don’t really kind of like there’s this, they don’t make sure that there’s a divide, they don’t mix. They’re kind of there’s a gulf between them. So it’s kind of useful, I think to especially in the spiritual world to mix it up, and to explore different perspectives and use that as a way of just like what you’re saying exploring?

Harri Aalto: Well, I do broadening the range. I accept their experience, they don’t accept the mind, I expected, I totally respect the fact that they’re talking about pure conscious, I have that same experience. Even if I wasn’t having the experience that I’d say I’m having, intellectually, I would hedge my bets and say that everything is included. Yeah. Right. Rather than nothing is included. I’d hedge my bets and say, God is there, the angels are there, the devas? Are there the relative is there, and it’s all good?

Rick Archer: Well, that’s kind of what I’m doing. Because I don’t really experience all those things. But intuitively, yeah, makes such sense to me. Yes. And intellectually, also, I mean, just understanding how creation works, it’s got to sort of be this way, that it’s almost I can almost taste it, you know, even though I don’t experience it.

Harri Aalto: So And yes, I, I am not fond of the word illusion, even though it describes a certain state of consciousness. And it’s, and it’s clear that that elusive quality of the relative is there up until you understand and see it in the self? Yeah. If you can imagine for one moment, if if your eyes and your ears are seeing the subtle relative, and there is no gap between the fluctuations of the sight, most silent level that is possible for humankind, when my conscious, let’s say, to experience and there’s no gap between those fluctuations, and the subtle, irrelevant. The Divine relative, and no gap between the divine relative and the gross, so called gross wrong, what if there was no gap? If you could see that as a continuum? what would you say that all was, I say it’s all consciousness. I say it’s all a continuum. Because that’s how I see it. That’s how I know it. That’s how I hear it. Even intellectually, I can’t conceive of a state where there’s only only unbounded stillness right? Now, that unbounded stillness this is interesting is that permeate the subtle relative does permeate the gross router. So it is all on bounded silence on in movable silence, by a movable it looks a movable, there is a state, there is a state of nothingness. But you don’t have that experience, you kind of intuit that there’s this vacuum state somewhere, there’s no experience. By the time you have an experience, there’s already let’s call that pure intelligence or pure consciousness, itself knowing field, it’s kind of a warmed up warmed up, that’s a good way to put it. And that warmed up field, you can see what what it is, you can actually see it, you can hear it, you can even touch it. And the reason you can have a sensory experience. So if you’re conscious is because it’s your experience. Ultimately, ultimately, it’s your it’s your personal experience. How can the absolute be personal? Well, it can be personal, because it’s an experience. If it wasn’t an experience, you couldn’t have it. Since it isn’t experience, somebody’s having it, that somebody is ultimately seen as physiology as well. Ultimately, as soon as there’s a connection to God and the subtle levels, you’ll begin to see it on a more cosmic level. But the individual, the eyeness of the individual is still there, and is rediscovered. Maybe maybe, maybe people lose that is you know, in some states of consciousness, but it’s regained, its regained. If the state of immortality exists, then somebody has to have that state. Otherwise, it’s not immortality.

Rick Archer: In other words, it doesn’t exist. In

Harri Aalto: other words, it doesn’t exist. If you just merge into the absolute, then that’s the same as death. Now, if consciousness survives, then something survives. what is that something that survives? The the individual who is cosmic, the individual who is unbounded, if the individual person the eye Enos of pure the, the eye ness of consciousness. That’s kind of interesting because the, because the experience of pure consciousness the experience of the FBI at a certain point is universal. It’s everywhere. The AI is everywhere. Now, to recognize that AI is universal and personal at the same time. That’s the trick That’s the trick of awareness. That’s a trick of Enlightenment. They’re there together. There’s no difference between the unbounded eye and the and the personal lie, they’re the same thing. But they’re there together. They exist together. And that togetherness of the eye, the eye is everywhere. But the eye is still focused at the center of the wheel, the hub of the wheel. So let’s say consciousness, starts expanding from the center, and goes on in all these directions. If the INS of the pure consciousness of that first initial experience is seen as the self, and it doesn’t, it doesn’t lose itself in the pieces. Let’s say that all the pieces of consciousness join each other. They’re like a web, right? So the web can get as big as you like. But because all the points in the web are joined, they continue to be pure consciousness, they continue to be wholeness. As a matter of fact, the more of these points, the more of these layers, the more of these even relative phenomenons ultimately, that you experience, the more they reveal the self manual work, the more they reveal, even the silence

Rick Archer: which kind of reveals Brahman worlds, they say, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. Well, that was a little far out and abstract for some people, maybe, but it might be a good stopping point.

Harri Aalto: I think so. Yeah.

Rick Archer: So this is good. I just get I guess I’ll just make some concluding remarks and probably don’t have any final comments, because that was a good one. But if you want to you can.

Harri Aalto: Okay, I’ll make just one. Sure. Comment, you know, I do tend to go out there sometimes with

Rick Archer: That’s good stuff. I mean, and I could start probing you on that. No, but by now,

Harri Aalto: you know, everything in pure consciousness, everything on these levels, everything has a practical, day to day, the story of my life, my daily life is the same story as it is on the subtle level. It’s the same story that is on the absolutes, one story, and everybody has that story. Everybody has to connect. Everybody is the totality of a consciousness. I know that sounds out there. But totality is a simple state. It’s not a complicated state. Pure Consciousness is a simple state, the subtle relative, and the gross relative all tied together, it becomes knowable and becomes simple. It doesn’t become more complicated. Because everything is revealed. No one aspect of consciousness hides any other aspect of consciousness. And if it doesn’t hide it, it becomes clear and simple. Yeah, there we go.

Rick Archer: Well, for most people, there’s plenty of hiding taking place, you know, many, many layers of obscuration. And so for most people, this will be a long term for everyone. I’d say it’ll be a long term exploration never ending exploration. And, you know, it’s hard to say exactly where any one person is. The whole you know, it’s almost impossible. Yeah. But wherever one happens to be, keep on trucking. Because as yet more to explore.

Harri Aalto: Well, I’d like to thank you for having me again. It’s great. I enjoyed it. And, and we’ll do it again someday here. Okay,

Rick Archer: the first thing when your book comes out, I bet you it’ll sell well. So I’ll make a few concluding remarks. So I’ve been interviewing Harri alto, Harri and I live in the same town as you can tell. And this interview has been won in an ongoing series, there are about 240 of them or so now. You can watch them all and watch them all. But you can investigate to see what ones there might be to watch by going to batgap.com Bat gap. And there you will find under the past interviews menu, you’ll find an alphabetical index, a chronological index, and a topical index, categorical, which we’re doing our best to sort out. There’s also on future interviews menu, there’s a list of upcoming interviews, and there’s also a page to suggest a guest if you’d like to suggest someone to be interviewed. There on the site, you’ll also find a donate button which I appreciate people clicking and need people to click as if they can to keep this whole thing going and expand it. There is a chat group which gets quite lively sometimes around each interview. Each interview has its own theme and the chat group there is a link to an audio podcast so you can listen to this, you know, just in audio while you’re driving or whatever. And there is a link to sign up to be notified by email each time a new interview is posted. And some other stuff too, a few explore around. So thank you for listening in or watching and we’ll see you next week with I believe David Hofmeister. I think his name is Nick. He’s, of course in miracles guy, so we’ll talk about that. Okay, thanks. Thank you, Harri.

Harri Aalto: Thank you. It’s great. Yep.