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Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer and my guest this week is Ellie Roozdar. And Ellie lives on Long Island, but is originally from Iran, where I spent 3 interesting months, back in, I guess, it was 1980’s, leaving just a day or two before the Shah did. I was with a group of TM teachers who were trying to demonstrate that large groups of people meditating could actually create a peaceful influence on their surroundings and the society and I don’t know if we did or not but it was interesting meditating all day and then going up on the roof of our building to watch the banks and liquor stores burn. (Yes, yes amazing) Wild times, and we take walks out on the street and people, you know, here we are these white guys walking around and people say :”you crazy? Get off the streets, you will get yourselves killed”, we felt safe but I am sure we were naive. It was interesting. Thanks, I have been listening to several hours of your interviews and talks over the last week and enjoyed those, and those listening to this will get a chance to catch up on what I heard but one thing I didn’t hear too much in all that and didn’t even see in your website, although I looked through it, was an account of how you got to turn to who you are, in terms of your spiritual orientation, so tell us that story. This is a long, long story. That is ok, we have time. First of all, I just want to thank you for having me here. Oh, you are welcome. And the reason I accept this interview is because, this path was so long and hard, was so difficult, and I didn’t have any teacher, no teacher, no guru, no one to help. So, that is why I want to share this story with the people, I am sure, there are so many people out there, who are listening right now, and are in the same exact boat, but the message is: “There is a light at the end of the tunnel”. And it is not an oncoming train. No, it is not, there is an end to this path, so, if I want to start from the beginning, Rick, I was born in a very middle-class family in Iran, as you mentioned, I have been born and raised till age 23. When I was a child, this is around age 5 or 6, when I was alone in the room, by myself, especially when I was all by myself, just playing or doing whatever I was doing, all of a sudden I see myself as this vision, it is just a vision, it is not a thing, I am just looking at this body, especially in the hands, I was looking at my hands, I was absolutely not associated, whatsoever to this body, and I was so petrified, I was just looking, and the only question I would ask is in Persian “Mankia”- Who am I? It was scary, because I was not getting any answer, and all I was feeling here is empty, there is nothing in here, nothing whatsoever, but this looking at the body, this body does not feel at all belong to me, I am just looking at it, but absolutely not as we see it at that time. This vision was so profound. This is invisible vision I could call, invisible and I would be sweating, all my face was so scared, I would run out of the room, I would go to a place, that there are people there, and then, when there are people there, then I feel a little bit safe, then I feel back, somehow I am going back again, I could not share this with any one I knew this was not norm, I knew it, something from inside I knew it, this is not norm. Did it happen over and over again? Absolutely, any time I was quiet by myself the vision was coming out I was not identifying with the body, this was not me. Did you kind of fight it, because you didn’t like it, you tried to stop it? No, I was scared. But, if it scared you so much, when you tried to kind of stop it from happening? No, this stopping was getting up and leave, yeah, going out, but in this, “who am I” was there, because I didn’t get an answer there, I felt this emptiness, there was nothing here and that “who am I”, that was the question, just was there, I know it was in the back, always, so, as I was growing up, till 8, 10 and 11, this was on and off there, until finally I think this eye, this vision closed up and this body was totally accepted somehow, ok, I am this body but I knew, something is not right in here, you know what I am saying, I knew. So this was my question, as I was growing up like everybody else, I am going to bring a metaphor, to show how I felt. It felt like, imagine you are a king, you are a king of this whole entire continent and all of a sudden you wake up and they dress you as a beggar, and they give this begging bowl and to go into this world and try to become that, so that was the feeling, I knew this was not me, I just knew it, this doesn’t feel comfortable, but it feels like this was giving, I cannot do anything about it, I have to accept this, so I accepted it, but I knew this was not it. So, I took the begging bowl, and I went around the world, and I try to become, just become, and become everything, become a good daughter for the family, become educated, a good student, I happen to be a very very good high achiever, very good student, and finally be accepted in university which is in Iran very difficult, for every 100000 people who apply for collage, only 10% would be accepted, and I achieved that, went to college in Iran, got my Bachelor’s degree and for continuing my education I decided to come to the United States, in 1979, the day Shah left Iran we left Iran also, the next day. Ah, we might have been in the same flight, almost, I think I left about 2 days before that. Right, that is about that time, so I came to United States, to continue my education, again to become, I was just becoming. So then here, I met my husband, I got married, he is Iranian as you saw him today, and then I said, there is something missing here, like a huge hole. And no matter how much I was becoming, this hole was getting bigger, not smaller, it was just getting bigger. Was it like a constant awareness of that or would just come up in your quite moments? Pretty much all the time I was not at ease, I was not comfortable in this outfit, I was not. This was not comfortable. And then I said ok, and maybe if I find the love of my life, love is the answer. So this man, I met him, I fell in love, I mean I thought at that time this was love, this was really love a person to a person, so we got married, that was not it, having the children, same thing everybody else is doing, I don’t want to take a lot of time on that, but it was not it, in having two beautiful children, my daughter is now a grown up, my son is now in college. Something didn’t feet. After my Master’s degree I went and start teaching in a katikati school as a high school teacher of mathematics. I was very very good in that, I am good in transferring the knowledge to this students, I was good, I loved that, that was my passion, in class I was so myself, I feel so great. But again, that thing that was missing is always here. Until in 1995, this body got very very sick, I have got breast cancer. And I have to deal with that. That was one of the turning points, something hit here, I had to take care of that, which I did, I went through whole entire thing, the surgery and everything. And I put that behind myself. But that was something that it made me again go. Not only to take care of the body now, I started to take care, watch the body a little bit more, more exercise, better eating, all that, but then going now curve back in, that’s the time that started. About 2 years after I became a volunteer of American Cancer Society and ever since I am helping all those people in Long Island, who had breast cancer. That was the time of my life. Interacting with people, going to their homes, giving them hope, showing them that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, this is a cancer survivor body, so it was just fun to do that as aside. I thought that’s good, that is it, serving people, it would be something that maybe I need to, again, feel that gap, that hole. That was good, but that was not it, I mean in this becoming is not it. I knew this becoming is not it. It is not the path of becoming, so after a while… after the cancer, I decided to change my career. Because I was commuting a long long distance and I said, so maybe that something close, that was… The dog saying, “It’s time for breakfast”. So you want to go and take care of him? No, my wife will take care. We will keep going. People who listen to this shows, are very well aware of our dogs and cats. I love them, so dearly. So after all this I said, you know, this is something missing. When I changed my career, I was in Information technology for few years, again, I became a manager. Very good at what I was doing, dealing with the people, interacting. And then, at that point I said, ok, I heard about energy, and healing and reiki. So, I found someone, some reiki master in Long Island and she gave me attunement, so I learned reiki level 2, so she showed me how to do it with hands and all that. One day I said, ok, now that I learned this, she showed me that you can me give energy from the distance or to the picture of somebody or all that. So here I am, I said, let me just give energy to my sister. So I was sitting in my living room and I am holding my hands up like that on her picture and all of a sudden my hands start bouncing up and down, and speed was phenomenal, out of control it was like, I can’t tell you, it was so fast that I feel that my shoulders now is going just to pull out. Wow… So I take my hands off, off the picture, so I just hold like this, and I just waited, and then I said, ok, I am going to try again. So I put my hands back now this time my hands were going this way, like this. For those listening on the audio, she is going back and forth, rather than up and down. Right, it was like this, but the speed, I cannot describe that, this was so much that it was so out of control, it was so painful, it was like my hands were falling off. So I take my hands off, and all of a sudden I felt this energy was flowing from the bottom of my belly, circling around like this and coming up and up and up, and going to my head, and my shoulders … it feels like you are in a rollercoaster, that how it was moving, and then my chest was just expanded so much, and then it was just like moving and going on and on, and as I was looking at my hands, all of a sudden my hands became like this, I felt like a football, soccer ball, and this energy was moving in between my hands. When you say like this, for the benefit of those just listening audio, she is holding her hands as though she is holding a soccer ball in her hands. Exactly, like this, and it was going in between my hands, so powerful, it was like a ball moving. And I was looking at it, I just didn’t know what to do with this ball, I just put it on my head, I go like this. (Ah, put the ball on your head) Yes, and I let go, and this was going on and on, I don’t know how long, until it quiet down. And then all of a sudden, as it quiet down, I raise my hand and I notice that this left hand is moving as I am going towards any chakra in my body, if I hold my hand, it starts vibrating, very powerful. So, ok I sat down, I don’t know how long was it, what happened to me I really didn’t have any experience like this. This reiki master told me, that you can give energy to the loved ones, to the people who are deceased, anybody. So, there are 2 people in my mind, so powerfully, so strongly that I want to give energy. One was Mother Theresa. So, here I am, I raise my hands and with a distance I start, giving her energy, and this 2 hands were going off the war, they were going booo… like moving and moving, and shaking and moving and throughout this whole energy it was like that, then it slow down, it quiets down and that was it. And the next one, I said the person that I always… This was love of my heart was Jesus. I said.. And I am not even Christian, but Jesus has a very special place in my heart, because of his messages, I start giving energy to Jesus, again the same thing, again hands moving, and I said, I have to call my husband, I have to show him what is going on with me, so I call, he was downstairs, in his office, he came up he sat and I said look, “I want to give energy to your brother. His brother was deceased. Very tragically deceased back in Iran. He said ok, so as I was mentioning his name, and I was giving energy, my hands were acting like that again. And I was watching, and he was watching, we have no idea what was going on, so I remember when this energy was ended he just looked at me he didn’t say one word. He just walked away. I think he was very scared. What did he say later on? You will work it out? Are you ready? (Sure, I am ready) “Why can’t you be like other people?” Ah, he wanted you to be normal… Exactly, I said, what do you mean by that? This is normal, like other people, like your friends. Does anybody of your friends do anything like that? I said I have no answer, I don’t know what to say So I called the reiki master, I said, look I don’t know what you did to me, it is attunement you gave me or something, I had this kind of an experience. She says, “Oh, my Goodness, that’s kundalini awakening”. I said, “I have no idea of you mean by that”. She says, “Ok, that is very powerful and what I want you to do is you give me energy because I have this chronic pain in my back that I want you to give energy”. So, she came to my home, and she lay down, and I say, “Look, somehow I know I don’t have to touch you, I just do it from the distance”. She says, “I don’t know where do you got this idea, whatever that is, go ahead do it”. So I gave energy to her from a distance. And she fell that it is very very strong. She says, “The pain is gone, the pain is completely gone” She didn’t feel anything at all. She says, “This is fantastic, this kundalini opens up, has a lot to do with all this energy. So you can do a lot with this energy, and healing. So come and join us and all that stuff”. So I said “ok”, so I was reflecting upon that. I knew a woman…an Iranian woman, she is in California She was also into energy, she wrote a lots of books about that, I contacted her, I said, “Look this is something like this happening”, I explained all that, she says, “Ok, I want you to close your eyes and scan my body and tell me which part of my body has a problem” I said, ” I have no idea what you are saying”. She says, “Just follow what I just said, close your eyes, picture my body, scan me from the head to toe, tell me which part has a problem. I say ok, I just followed, I closed my eyes, and I am scanning her body, I am coming down and as I am reaching her throat, I feel my energy, my hands start to shake with different kind of vibration, felt different kind of thing. So, then I go down, all of a sudden in her stomach I felt something, and then all the way down to her legs. So, she said, “What did you find?” I said, “Something in your throat and something in your stomach”. She says, “Absolutely right, they found a tumor in my throat”. She has this problem with the thyroid, and she says, “Last night me and my husband went out to dinner, I don’t know what we ate, we both have problem, with our stomach, give me energy to my stomach”. So I started giving energy to her stomach. She says, “Can I ask you a favor?” I said yes. “Can you give energy to my husband, because he is sick also. So he comes in, and I am giving energy to him. And that’s how I started, she said, “You can do this, now you can scan people from distance. After kundalini, the only difference in me was just the hand, this my left arm was like that very sensitive, and my ears became very very sensitive, very sharp with the noise and all, that’s all, nothing else. I never felt anything else changed, feeling wise. Then I start with my friends and people who know me I start giving energy from the distance and also scanning people, saying I feel something in your stomach, in your lower stomach, and they say, “Yes I had some problem with my intestinal and I had surgery” and all that. You can feel the different vibration, even from the distance, you can tell. So, this was going on and on, and I was giving energy from distance for a long time, but I noticed that whenever I give energy to 2-3 people in a raw, somehow I feel such pain and tiredness, if feels like you have two bricks all of a sudden on your chest. It was draining you, or something… Very much, it was not supposed to be like that, you are supposed to be channeling this energy, not giving your own energy. So I was talking to my cousin back in Europe. She said, she knows a guru, that is a monk. He is very familiar with this energies. So, he can help you on this. Accidentally he was coming to NYC. So, I went to visit him, this monk, in the city. Anyone I would have heard of? I cannot… I don’t want to mention his name, he is not that famous, I don’t know if he wants his name to be revealed. (No problem). But he was a Kairo practice doctor, which was also a monk. So, as soon as they opened the door, I went to him, he was sitting there with this orange robe, you know, the robes that they have (Sure). He looked at me and I said to him, “I think I have this kundalini problem”. He looked at me, he smiled and said, “I can see that”. He said, “The energy, the way it is supposed to come up, it has to go straight up and in a flow properly”. Somehow because of the way my spine is, this energy trapped in the middle and instead of the color changes, the color instead of being light, like a yellowish white, it was like an orange red. That is the color he was seeing. So, is that why you were feeling drained, because your kundalini was blocked? Something was blocked, it was not functioning, so he put me on the floor, and he cracked my back and the neck also, I could hear that noise. He was not even touching me, he put a cloth…. something was on my back, so he doesn’t touch me directly, so he just did that. He was physically touching you through a cloth. Yes, and then he said, that is it. Now this energy is flowing, I see the color. I didn’t feel anything. So, he said, the color is now white, like yellowish white, but he said something beautiful to me. He said, “My sister, this kundalini awakening is a blessing for you, do not give energy to people, because I have seen people get into this, and that pump their sense of self and ego so strongly, and they lose themselves in this path, although they do service, but they are lost. They think, like they are something special. (Exactly). Right. So, if I were you, he said, I would go within, and I would try to find who am I, and I said that was always my question. So I came home, Rick, and that was that, and the job that I have, this was the management of the company, I said, “You know what? I have to know who am I” I put this into back for a long time, it is long enough, that’s it, I called them up, I told them, I am quitting my job, I came back home, and I went back to this naturally, I think this body felt to go back to the cocoon, and the meditation started. Strong, powerful meditation. This was not any specific kind of meditation, I didn’t follow any specific guru or teacher. One thing I heard that I know it helped me, that is from a very famous Indian guru, again I don’t want to mention the name because I am not following this person. All I heard was just a methodology of meditation with open eyes and with closed eyes. All he was mentioning, is paying attention to this observer, to this watcher. So, when I did that, I was just paying attention to the observer, to this awareness who is here, but at that time I didn’t know who was this awareness. All I knew was, I have to pay attention to the awareness, that is all. So, I went back to this cocoon. And days after days, Rick, I was in meditation for hours. Sitting down was not cutting for me, because it was so painful, I couldn’t sit for a long time. Because of the kundalini was painful? I don’t know, I was so uncomfortable, because the duration of this meditation was so long. It was not 20 minutes or half an hour, it was like 3-hour meditation (yeah) Just sitting as a lotus position (too uncomfortable), it was very uncomfortable, my back so I would lay down, like a dead body, on the floor or in bed, no pillow, straight. So, after like 3 or 4 hours, Rick, my whole body was like a dead body, when I would come out of the meditation, my arms were just, oh my God was so painful, because I was holding it like this for a long time, it was all painful. You were trying to maintain a still position? Absolutely (ok). This stillness had to be there. For some reason I knew that this was it-stillness, awareness. Now this was the most important thing in this path for me, because as I was meditating, it was healing, meditation for me was a healer. All those memories were coming, all those emotions were coming up, but it was coming up to the presence of me, the presence of “I am”, and it would come and slowly…all this stories of me as a separate sense of self, that sense of separate me, with the story, was coming up and was dissolving. And the emotion… sometimes there is a memory, as if something was happening, and I would just be watching it, allowing this to happen. And it happened, and it just cleaned up. I don’t know how to describe, it was like purifying, it was so healing. And the wisdom, it is amazing, the knowing, and I was so acquainted with this nothingness, with this emptiness, I know this is not emptiness, this is absolutely fullness. So, unlike when you were a little girl, and you would have that experience and be fearful, now you were welcoming that experience and kind of befriending it, and not being fearful any more. True, but that was the vision, here was not the vision, this was just a witness, this was not just like that. I will explain that to you, because that vision later opened up, but this was not that, this was just a presence, which is healing. The presence is healing, is here. So as I was going through this meditation, my husband was petrified, because he saw me on the floor sometimes, like flat dead. And he would come up, he would hold me and he would try to wake me up, honestly, he thought…he was very concerned about this. And you wouldn’t respond? (no) Didn’t you explain to him what you were doing? I would say go away, I am fine, and he just wanted to make sure, that I am ok, I am not dead… But you were not being a normal housewife, that’s for sure. No, not at all. So, Rick, I found a friend from a distance. She lives in Canada. She became my friend. She was also doing the same thing-mediation and all that. One day I went to the beach. I had a very nice walk in the beach I sat in the beach I meditated in the beach, no problem. I was so in peace, I came home, I was sitting in the couch. Something told me that I have to know who meditate and again I feel that energy again, similar, very similar was coming up, I don’t know what it was, so I said, ok, I am going to lay down. I went upstairs in bed, lay down and I closed my eyes into meditation. After like maybe few minutes, all of a sudden this wave of energy, again was coming from the bottom the belly part of me was like a wave this time, it was not like a circular like that, it was wave, it was coming up to my chest all the way to my head holding up, holding my breath. No breath coming and going, nothing whatsoever, taking over the whole entire body, the head and this no breath was going on for maybe 10 to 15 seconds, ok, and the wave goes back. And this was going up and down. And up and down for an hour. And the joy and ecstasy… it’s just amazing. All of my, every cell of my body, not just my belly and my heart, not just that. I’m talking about every cell in my finger nails, fingers, every cell was feeling that joy. Even in my mouth I was feeling, all of my gums, every cell of the gum is feeling that joy. That’s how it was. Amazing. And it was just the most power, satisfying, joyful thing, ever. Happy. And I was in it, I was not a watcher, I was not aware, being, no no no, that’s gone. This love is so powerful, it’d take over everything. This is no you, nothing going on. So, as it finished, I said, “Oh, my God, who I can share this one now?” I called my friend in Canada. She says, yes, she has the same experience and she described that to me. It is not that, “ok, I know it”. She gave me the description, how it was, how it started… So, we know something was going on. So I was so glad that I was not the only one. So, I went to do some research to find out what is this. What is this thing in a meditation. Because the meditation to me was always a quiet place, silence, nothing like this. So, I went to the internet, the only thing I found, honestly, was this Indian lady in India who had this thing going on in her and people were celebrating around her. And they said that the divine is touching her. And I saw her, it was the same exact thing was going on with her, the energy was coming, going to her head and she was intoxicated and it was going down. People were dancing around here, giving her something to drink and they said this is divine, That’s what I saw. Nothing else. I said, ok. And I didn’t share this with my husband, because if I do, I know, it just again, another thing was going to happen. So, forget it. This thing was so powerful, Rick, for about 2,5 years I was going there and I know this experience. This is just amazing. So, every day for 2,5 years you would lay down? Not every day, no, this was very powerful, you couldn’t do this every day. You can do this only maybe once a week, if you can. Because the energy of it is so powerful, you feel like you going to explode. The times when you do it, you would do it, when you felt the urge to do it coming on, right? Almost like you didn’t really have a choice, it is “I have got to go to do it”. Yes, that’s how it was. Like something was coming on, I have to go lay down. (Right) So this was again, I was falling in love with this. This is my lover fair now. This is me, Ellie and this thing, whatever this thing is…it is divine, this is how it was, me and the divine are going and this merge. This is what happening. Let me just interject a question here, as this was happening, not during the actual laying down, but throughout your 24-hour daily routine, was your normal life disrupted by the changes that were taking place, I mean you have sort of good relations with your kids and your husband, and your friends, your shopping and all that stuff was ordinary? Yes, I try to pretend the image, that facade, that role never changed. I try to not to reveal that (right) and it is very easy not to. You can just do it, this is your little secret, honestly, the only person that knew was my friend in Canada, she knows. So you never discussed this stuff with your husband, even where you are going to? No, he would not understand that. But this love, Rick, is not like a romantic love, it is not like that. This is it. I thought this is the ultimate. You can’t have anything above that, I mean the joy of this is just overwhelming, and you get so hooked, this is like my love affair, honestly that was it. So, you think you are just going to do this all your life… All my life, I arrived, I thought that’s it, there is Ellie, who had this love affair, and this is me, whenever I feel like going, but then when the experience was ending, I felt that sense of separation. And this love affair gets so intense, Rick, that no matter, even if you stay there for 24 hours, you still feel separated. And this separation is not good, was not satisfying for me, I cannot continue this, I cannot be separated from this. So, I don’t know what’s going on with me, but this something is not right. I cannot be separated from this. And I felt separated, and that was giving me pain, again. I wanted to be 24 hours here, but I couldn’t be here, I wish I was in Himalayans by myself, but I couldn’t do it- I have a husband, I have a family, then there was this feeling of bewilderment, it is like something, everything is… When I was looking at everything, everything is a miracle all of a sudden. This butterfly, oh my God, it is like first time I saw a butterfly ever in my life, I was sitting in my backyard, again sitting and watching, this grasshopper came, I was looking at it, and oh my God, look at this legs, look at this face, that kind of thing, bewilderment. So, I said, I really have to know what is going on. Something came to me, there was this Sufi mystic in Iran, his name is Attar. Attar is very old mystic even prior to Rumi. He came up with this infrastructure in this path, path of self-realization. He divided to 7 steps, or 7 stages, when I read that, and I saw those 7 stages, I said, that’s it, this should be in front of me. as a model, because I don’t have anything else in front of me. And am going to use that as a model. This is how he said that, and I knew I was in the path. He said, “Step one is the burning desire. In this path you have this passionate desire to know the truth”. That has to be there as a number one and he emphasized that so much on that. “Stage two is love”, he says love. And I knew that this is the love he was talking about that you feel. That is the love affair he is talking about. Stage three he says, some sort of recognition after love, recognition state, stage four… Recognition of what? Of the truth, I would tell you that, because when I was having this experience, I was recognizing there is something esoteric here, there is something going on, I don’t know what it is but it is something, it is something different, it is not normal, normal thing that people are going through. There is something in here. I don’t want to call it anything, but there is something in here. So, that was the recognition he was talking about. It is not enlightenment, really, it is not awakening yet. Then he is talking about a bewilderment, which I was there. Bewilderment I think you mean? Bewilderment, yes, that means, anything is miracle, when you look at anything, but also in this estate, you are confused, you don’t know who you are yet, you know there is something going on, but you are still so confused. That is a very very difficult state, I was there for a while, and I experienced that. After this, he said unity consciousness. That is the state five, unity consciousness. Six is “die” in God. A unity consciousness means… elaborate… I would elaborate in a minute. (ok, sorry) Unity means just a vision change. The vision that I had at age 6. The vision change, which I am going to talk about in a minute (ok), that is unity consciousness, then he says die in love, stage 6. State 7, resurrected as God. Oh my goodness. I just said, this is it. I am going to put that in front of me and just looking at it, and see where I am. So, I am going and living my life, and bewilderment is there for a long time, and I am going to my life, again meditation, meditation is still going on, because still I was not aware who I was. And even there is a better word then bewilderment, because bewilderment usually means confusion, but I think you mean like fascination or with the mystery, (exactly) with almost being in oar of the divine intelligence that you see displayed in things. Yes, absolutely, but it was confusing though, it was not clear, it was blurry (ok, right) And I knew that was not a place I wanted to be. That was a very uncomfortable place to be. I am telling you, Rick, you don’t want to be here, it is so unclear. So, in one experience, again I just had to meditate, go through this love affair in one experience that I have, this was years ago, I don’t even know what year was it –
going and having this love affair, ok? This is how it happens, I noticed that the experiencer and the experience, they are not two, this is one. And in this experience that sense of separate self, all off a sudden, like this just collapsed, and then at the end of the love affair, all that was left, was this awareness, this existence. And this existence, what happened, all of a sudden it is like something cracked open, and it was so crystal clear here. So here… When the experience was over, everything dropped, everything collapsed, and the only thing was left was this, and immediately, I looked at it, I felt this is me, I am not a part from this, this is familiar, this is not something new, it was there, it was like from the background it came to this forefront, very very strongly, powerfully, from the core of the being, it came up. Here for the first time I felt, there is only one thing in here, all there is, is this, there is nothing but this. And that’s end of that in this body, in this body all there is, is this. This experience was profound because I didn’t keep the experience any more, I didn’t chase the experience any more, it feels like you come out of this shell, you drop the shell, this shell is not important for me any more, because I got what I wanted out of this. What I am trying to say is that the experience in the meditation… that is not important, that is not something you have to focus on, the focus is that the truth of the being who is aware of the experience, all of a sudden reveals itself, in the midst of the experience. And the experience wipes away, and you don’t even need to remember the experience. It is just throw it out, but this is the true gem, this is it. The truth of the being… That “I am”, it felt like “I am”, this stayed there. And that the experience over here, I am… I am… This was on few days, but that is the unity consciousness he is talking about, the feeling of oneness within, but it wasn’t oneness without, there was still a within and without, ok? So, this me, still, I was seeing myself as a separate body, I was still referencing this body as me, and the rest of the world as separate, it was like this. Although in here there is no person. The oneness within doesn’t refer to your body, does it refer to something more fundamental than that? That’s true, but there is still some sort of referencing. Some sort of association… Association was there, yes although there is this oneness very strong, it came up, it was right here, right now, but still there is this “meness” and this otherness. The sense I am here living this, living this oneness and that is separate from everything else. Exactly (right, ok). Now it was just going on and on, this time when I was meditating, it was not chasing that experience any more, that was gone. Even before that, when you were meditating, it didn’t sound like you were chasing anything, it sounded like you were hanging on for the dear life and going on for a ride and that was all happening automatically. True, but I was enjoying it, I was loving it, ok, here it comes. But now this was gone, that was not needed any more. It feels like you graduated from that (ok), outgrown from that. That experience does not need to reveal anything for me any more, it seems like it pulled off… I was just meditating on myself, as I am this…This amazing… I am I found who I am, I found myself, but it was not complete, I don’t know how to explain that, you can tell it was not complete. So, because all of this was not that? Exactly, there is this duality, that vision was still a duality, I see boundaries in there. At that moment I didn’t know it was duality, I just knew there is something that doesn’t feel right. A lot of times people referred to what you are describing as not dual, always unity, but in fact it is actually a state of duality. Right, exactly. And here I am not following any particular guru, any books, nothing, just mostly experiential. This all going through, this body going through all this natural unfolding. I am going to ask you, I don’t want to interrupt your flow but you were saying, that all this stuff that was going on with you for years, you were not inclined to be reading all kind of books, to figure out what was happening? I was reading, but there was no answer in there, (you didn’t find it satisfying…), no absolutely not. They were talking about this and that, I wanted somebody to explain to me, what is going on with me. What a stage am I, and I spoke to someone, who wrote so many books about this spirituality, he is Iranian guy, I spoke to him, and I explained about my experience, he says, “Look, I honestly don’t know what are you talking about, but these things that you are saying, there are some names for it. This stages, and also the experience that you have, there are names for it – this is this …but all I am telling you, this is a divine touch, that’s the divine working on himself, in this body, so, that was going on for a while until, Rick, in one…I go for a walk a lot, I mean fast walk, this I actually exercise, (yeah, good for you) as I was walking one time in the street, and this is a busy road I am passing, the cars are passing, here I am going, all of a sudden there is this stillness that is totally silence, and all of a sudden is embracing everything, everything is in me. The trees I am looking, the cars are passing and including the body is in me. But I am not it, I am just looking at it as a distance, and I also noticed that, I am not walking, the body is walking, that’s for sure, I am not walking. And I am looking at the bodies walking in me, the trees are in me, the scorrow pass by, the scorrow has zero distance from me… zero distance. Everything is equate distance to me. As an eye, as a vision, the vision opened up again, complete. That panoramic vision (360?)Yes, let me… it is not 360, I am not seeing my back, (right) What I was going to say is – no boundaries. Things are in me, but I am not it, I am embracing them but at the same time I am not it, I see them as an object, the body became totally an object. That’s it. All there is, is this vision, as a silence, as a subject. That’s the first time in my life I felt love. That is the true love. Love is when there is no separation. There is no distance, distance disappeared, and then that last for a while, Rick, and then again closed up. Again I see the duality, the vision came back to duality. The next day opened up, again closed up, opened up, closed… This lasted for a couple of months until finally stayed just like that, opened up… When it opened up that last time, was there something different about the opening, or was it like the other ones and you expected that it would go away, but it just didn’t? It didn’t go away, it seemed like I got adjusted, like some eye wanted to open up but cannot. I don’t know, this is a vision, I cannot say an eye, it is an invisible vision. I try to describe it sometimes, it is very hard. But that’s what it is, it is not like even a space, the vision is watching this space. Is aware of this space, it is not in a space. So this is a vision… And by vision I don’t think you mean visual (no, no) like predominantly using this sense as opposed to any other sense, you are talking about something more fundamental than that, maybe cognition would be a better word, I don’t know It is a different vision, it is a different way of looking (perspective). Perspective, which I know there is this one message from Jesus, I remembered, that he was saying from the childhood: “The kingdom of God is within you”. But within you is not within this, that’s not what he is talking about, he is talking about…you are this and the kingdom is in you. That’s what he is talking about. Now I know what he is saying that message just resonated, that’s it. The kingdom of God is within you. And also this message from prophet Mohamed, “The one, who knows oneself, knows God”, when you know who you are, you know God. That’s for sure. That was with me, for a long time. Now another message was always carried from Rumi. If you want me to say it, even in Persian beautiful (sure). It says, “…….(in Persian)……………….”. He says, “Those who are looking for God, you are God, it is not outside of you, you are it, you are it”. He is emphasizing “you are it”. So this 3 words, this 3 sentences like a triangle, was with me. One who knows himself, that is awakening, if you know who you are, you know God, the kingdom of God is within you, that’s the vision and you are God. So this has to be experienced, fully, fully resonate with you, to know to realize what Rumi is talking about. So that was the opening of the vision again, the vision now sees unity. That duality vision is not there anymore, but what there was this me, still there is a mind in the background, trying to understand this, and trying to define this somehow. And another tricky part of the process, try to be one with it, try to be present enough, to be one with this, ok? In other words it was not so spontaneous, you had to be sort of be trying something (trying). There was some little effort going on. Yes, so that is when the contemplation started in me. Is there a “me”? Apart from this, that is living here. Trying to be one with this, I am not going to give answers, is that true? But you were asking yourself that… I asked myself this (right), is that true? Or this is all there is? This me at the very end is trying to become this, I mean trying to be aware of this, and also try to analyze that, maybe philosophize that, I don’t know what I was trying to do. But somehow this mind was not surrendered. Awakening happened, I knew that, I knew who I was, there is no doubt in my mind, this was it, this was the truth, the only truth existing here. I know it, but this mind keeps trying to be in tune with this to understand this, this was for a while. Almost as if the mind was trying to fit something within its grasp that actually exceeds that grasp, but it is still trying to get hold of something. Yes, this is nothing to get hold of, this is how it is, Right, but the mind was trying. This is nothingness, but everythingness, but mind cannot understand this, so, mind in one day I remember, I just said, I just don’t know, I know this mind came to the knees, I know how it was. It was just so surrendered, so humbled, I cannot tell you how much, I was in tears. Did it just happen spontaneously all the time? Yes, (this kind of a letting go), this is it, because I know this is it, I don’t know what this thing is intellectually, but I just know it, this is the only real thing existing here. It is the most powerful thing, the most being, existing, shining, being that is. The mind at this time, I felt…You can tell, because this mind was constantly trying to become, to become even aware of the truth, that’s the tail end of the mind, you really have to watch it. Who wants to be one with this? Is that me authentic? That me, you have to watch it, very carefully, and because this awakening happened from within very powerfully, from deep in, it is not something, somebody pointed out to that to me. This was not coming from the outside. This was so deep inside, came out very powerful here, all the time as only king of this whole entire continent. So, when the king arises, there is nothing else left here, there is nobody else in here. There is nobody here, other than this. So, who is this “my” who is trying? That is the time, when this mind just surrendered. And after that, Rick, there was absolutely nothing to try, nothing to become, nothing to understand and also in peace, at ease, this mind is liberated, this mind is free. Free from becoming at last. I was becoming all my life, Rick, even in the path of spirituality, I was becoming, so kind and so loving, let’s have some unconditional love for everybody, the mind was trying all of that, trying to be non-judgmental. This are all the things that mind is trying to become, but you cannot be non-judgmental if you see yourself as a separate sense of self. Because you automatically see yourself as duality. You see duality, when you see duality, the judgment is going to be there, so no matter how much you try, you get frustrated, that is why the mind in this path gets so frustrated, it thinks that I have to be good, I have to be non-judgmental, I have to be this and that… None of that is true, because once you realize the truth, as a truth every though is more than welcome here. There is no such thing: this thought should not be there, I was policing. My mind was policing. This mind should not be there, that is good, this is bad… So in other words now your might have thought, that might be considered judgmental, but that’s ok, they just fit in? Because it is not you, you know that it is not you, you know who you are… But you might still have an opinion about Ahmadinejad, for instance (absolutely) or this rather the other thing, but all this where and why you put, they just float through. Any idea is welcome, any emotion is welcome. You cannot say, ok, now this awakening is happening, it should not be any kind of sadness here, I should not be sad, that’s not true. This sadness arises but you know who you are, you are not going to be a separate sense of self, that doesn’t have any kind of identity, so that it grabs that sadness as this is my sadness. So the same thing with the body, the body can get sick, this body is getting old, it is getting sick. If you know who you are, you tolerate any pain, any disease, any sickness was going on in the body very consciously, you are very aware of this, everything… So one way of saying it might be, you are not trying around it, there is nobody trying around the show any more, the show is just going on and you are just enjoying it as it goes. Absolutely, such a relax, no more “this is good and bad”, how I feel? Am I feeling good, am I feeling bad. This is nothing to do with feeling, what you are is completely beyond feeling, any feeling can come and go, but you know who you are as long as you know your identity. That’s the most important thing, you have to know who you are, and claim that, not claim as momentally this is you know, this is the only truth existing here, and you know that’s what I am. And that’s it. That’s the end of this path. When there is no more becoming. So in your experience, it is that… so you went through all this stages, and unfoldments and in some cases you thought this is the final thing I am going to do all my life. Are you still going through stages around formats, or has it all come to rest? That is resting, (and how does this correspond with those 7 stages of that man?) At the end he talks about the “fino effelo”, that means that you die in God, death of the self, this sense of separate self, which is always there, to the last minute, trying to be one, with the truth, trying to be one with here, be present. That is completely surrendered, completely to the knees, and once that happen because you have to admit that part of you, has to say, there is nothing, I am nothing. That part has to admit that I am nothing. That nothingness has to happen first, in other words: drops in the ocean, but that drop has to become nothing first, once it becomes nothing, then it becomes everything, then the whole totality is you. You cannot become totality from the mental all of a sudden to this consciousness. You cannot say,” I am consciousness”. That is not how it works. That part of you, which is a sense, the me that was here, that was a sense of me, that was never real. If it was real, it could be here, the only thing was real, was this, that we are feeling right now I mean right now, this monitor, the way this vision is, this monitor this body, they both are in me. They are equate distance. The body of… that body is called Rick, and this body is Ellie, this both are objects, fully all there is one subject. One alone, there is oneness, alone by itself, that’s how it is, this is the reality of the whole thing, so you wake up with that, and in this nothing really happens, and there is no sense of self, there is no “individual is here”. All there is, is This, because all there is is this presence, we don’t have any other timing, even if you are thinking about it, that thoughts are happening right here in the presence, the presence of being that is here it is the only truth, That is the bottom of that. You know that this path ends, because you know who you are, that’s it. Now, the part of the adjusting and settling; this is all again belongs to the mind, this is a mental game. The reality was always here, this reality is not going to get deep or any of that, the mind gets more and more surrendered, and dives into the unknown. Because this mind should say, “This is how it happens, although I don’t know this at all, but that’s the only thing I know”. That has to be so authentic, you cannot borrow it from somebody, it has to come from the depth of your being, fully. Now another thing , I want to share with you is very important. This knowing, this knowledge cannot be transferred from one person to another. There is sense to what I am saying because I have been talking to so many people: over the phone or sometimes by email, interacting, this was not successful, although I was a very good teacher in math, I can transfer knowledge, you cannot transfer this. I get a lot of emails, questions from people that they go to this satsangs and listen to all this. This is all good, because I know the intention of that teacher, it has to be very good, they have good intentions, they are pointing out to the truth and you recognize that. Definitely. I can bring anybody from the street, right now, I can go sit down, let me show you who you are. I would point out to the truth and they will recognize that. That is obvious, because that’s your nature, how could you not recognize yourself, that’s you, the truth is you. So, they can do that, but that is not awakening, so you go home, and may be for a few days you feel like love, but then that turns of separate self is still there, it doesn’t go away. So, this person, this type of people, they have to go through all this, because the mind has to go through all this. So, that is the path, ultimately, this mind would be ready to hear the truth when it is said. If this mind is not ready to hear this, no matter how much you say- you are consciousness, you are awareness, you are God, you are atman, doesn’t sync, because this mind is not ready to that, to hear it. So, that’s what’s happening to this people. I get a lot of people like this. They are wasting their time, they are in a circle. They go to one class to another, one person to another, one book to another. They want to hear this, not to practice it. Rumi says, “Don’t be in the circumference of the circle, you need to jump into the center”. The wise person will jump out to the center. How do you jump? By experiencing, when you close your eyes and you go, and check and see it for yourself, you need to see it for yourself. You cannot borrow this from somebody else, nobody can induce that to you. Rumi has a story, if there is still time, I would like to share (oh plenty, yeah). Rick, Rumi says this, this is metaphor of this. Imagine a room so dark, they put this huge elephant, and they put whole bunch of people around that. It is kitsch black, nobody can see a thing, now they say, find out what this thing is. The person who is up front is touching the trunk, he says, this is the gadder, ok, the person who was in the back touching the leg, says, this is the beam, the beam of the house. The person who is in the middle, touches the top, says, this is a bed, and they start fighting, and they were so right, because whatever they were touching it feels like right, ok? But he says, listen how beautiful he says, ” In the hands of each individual if there is a candle that has been lit individually, then there would be no differences” He doesn’t say that if they turn on the light from outside, everybody can see that, that’s not what he says. He is not saying, if somebody knows in here in the trunk part, he can say to other people who are standing in the back, who are not seeing this… the message, because the person who is in the back is hearing this, either he has accepted, just as an idea, or rejected (right), so he can’t see it. So he said, “Each individual has to lit their own candle”. He doesn’t even say that this person, who has a lit candle, has to go to other people and turn the others’ candles either. He does not say that. He may trigger that, he may say, “Oh my God I saw this, oh my God this is elephant”. And other people get excited about this, so that they can work on it and whatever happens naturally, they can see it, they can lit their own candle, but you cannot possibly transfer the truth to somebody else. I know that from fact, this is my experience and based on what Rumi says. So we have to remember that. That’s good. So, in other words, you have to live it for yourself. You have to live it for yourself and that’s why I don’t have any classes. And the description of it does not suffice as the actual living of it. Like hearing a description of some delicious meal, it is not like eating the meal. No, because, you know, people heard about it, that’s why I don’t want to have classes about this. I know this path is very long and difficult, it is not so easy that you hear about this, somebody introduced that to you and you go home, and try to practice, to be that. People call me and they say, oh some teacher told me try to be a watcher, I tried to be a watcher for a long time, it was ok, I was in peace, but then I was frustrated, I had to drop it, that was too much effort. It is manipulative. Yes, because that watcher is a duality watcher already, the watcher that you are at this time. You see me as this, separate, and that, Rick, is totally separate, you and me are two different people so what kind of watching am I practicing here? I am practicing duality, and that reinforces that sense of me, so that watching is not the watching that we are talking about. I think the watching you are talking about is something which either is happening, or it isn’t. It’s spontaneous, it is not a willful exercise, that you kind of do all day long. (Exactly) It is just like breathing, it is just happening. And watching happens from here, this is how you watch, not like this, or maybe the eyes used to be connected to the head – this way you were watching, now this way you’re watching. I don’t know how to describe it. Also some people say, there is nobody here, that’s not going to awaken you. Don’t waste your time (It is a concept) Let me explain to you. I am a math teacher, ok? Let’s make an example, Rick. Let’s say, when this bodies were born, there is one question, big problem has been given to us to solve. Same exact problem, everybody has to solve it. Let’s say, you solve the problem, ok? You got the answer, X is equal to 0, which is nothingness, and X is also equal to infinite, which is everything, ok? You got the answer, and then you come to me and say, “You know what? I got the answer, here you give it to me, I plugin, I test this answer into my problem, So X is equal to 0, I plugin and it is working, isn’t that so? X is working, X is equal to infinite, I put infinite, I cancel out, rationalize it, it works. But does that mean that I solve this problem? Now, if I check the answer, it works, you may say something else, as someone who really solved the problem, you may say, “That X equal to 0, that 0 is also equivalent to infinite”.
Because I didn’t solve this problem, you solved it, you gave me the answer. So if I sit in the middle of all this people, who solved this problem, I have nothing to say, although I have the answer, X equal to 0 is infinite… Even if I may remember, ok this X is equal to infinite, so equivalent, fine, no problem, but that is not awakening, please do not waste your time, just trying to learn all that and incorporate it into your own life, try to fit it in, you don’t fit in that. This is something like realization, this is not becoming, this is not a study, this is not a becoming kind of thing, trying to fit in that kind of a thing idea. There is a Tibetan proverb that I said I was not going to say any more, because I have said it so many times but it fits nicely into this, it is a: “Don’t mistake understanding for realization, don’t mistake realization for liberation”. Oh, beautiful, absolutely, deliberation part is important, you may realize that somebody pointed out to you, but that doesn’t mean a thing, people go to these teachers as a disciples. They sit down, they have to go to this satsang, and next year, and next… I am not saying not to go to satsang. Go there. This is good for the mind, but that is not enough, if that’s all what you are doing, trying to get ideas of what they are saying and… even if the say, Buddha said, “Deeds are happening, events are happening, but there is no doer”. Yes, that’s true but that is not meant for you to go and use that as a practice. Right, it’s a description, it’s not a prescription. Exactly, the real practice is your own experience, you have to see it for yourself, like it never happened before. And unfortunately, one thing that happens at lot of these satsangs, is that the teachers discourage people from actually doing any sort of practice, which might result in that experience. They say, “Oh, practice is going to reinforce the notion, that they are someone practicing, don’t bother with that, just listen to me”. Actually, someone practicing, the ego takes you there, that’s true, someone is practicing, but ego dissolves in that. That part they don’t realize. In this path ego would burn out. That love I was talking to you, that essence, that experience would burn up the ego. One other thing that I would like to share, is that, in order to be awakened to who you are, you don’t have to have all this experiences either, like kundalini awakening if it happens, it happens, but you don’t go to someone to try to manipulate your energies, don’t do that, because, that delays this process of realization. In order to realize who you are you don’t have to have kundalini awakening. Now that I know, and I went through all this experience, even that person said, use that… That was just a trick for the mind, honestly, you don’t need that, and also that love experience that I told you, love affair, that also is not needed. Let me tell you why, because, when you meditate, when you close your eyes in that silence, when the mind quiets down, in that silence, if you really pay attention, that silence, that easiness, that existence of silence, is pointing out to the truth, ok? Now, people are mistaking actual truth with the silence, this silence of being, that emptiness is the… shadow of the truth, it is not the truth. Because the truth does not have a quality, is that one way of saying it? Because the truth is observing that, it cannot be that (right). The truth is what is observing that. This is very delicate. People think this is what I have, all the time I get emails, they say, “Oh I know I am consciousness, but when I go to talk to people, I lose myself, now I have to come back, to step in”. You don’t know the truth, because if you know the truth, the truth has to be there, you have to be there in order to have that interaction, the truth is not any state, any specific state of mind, people think that when I come to the present, and then silence, that is the truth. That is the reflection of the truth, that is the aroma, that arises from the truth, but that is not the truth, truth is always here, whether there is a mind, or no mind. Mind can come and go, emotion can come and go. This does not come and go, it is always here, ever presence. That’s a very important thing. So, there is no such a thing – I go and I forget who I am, and I come back… That’s you don’t know who you are, because the attention may go to the mind, but when this awakening fully happens, when the mind surrenders, the mind is liberated. The attention automatically comes back, you don’t have to put any effort to that, the attention comes back here. By itself, there is no effort, it effortlessly comes back. It is not that I have to remember that attention has to be here. It is not like that, and that mind that was trying to become, and those thoughts of self-seeking, they automatically vanish, they dissolve. So, this mind is not a quiet mind, it is not saying anything, nothing is going on, this mind is just in service, right here, at your service, and this mind realized what is the king. What is the king here, and listening to that, it becomes a tool, really. -I was going to say that word, I was going to say it is a tool. Yes, that’s the tool, just like the way this arm is. (right) So, it is in my control now, it’s in the control of This. That’s the end of that. There is no such thing- I have to bring my attention back. Another question I get a lot is “what is life’s… Let me just say, wouldn’t you agree that if there was something that you had to have by putting your attention there, in other words, if your attention had to be responsible for having that, then it would necessarily be very intermittent, because by its very nature the attention doesn’t stay in one place, (exactly) it goes here, it goes there, according to what we need to do. And so this is more of a foundational rock bottom thing, which is irrespective of whether the attention may or may not be. Absolutely. The attention goes where it is needed, it goes out when it is needed and then comes back. It is not going to stay there, like the way it was, trying to self-seeking, like I have to now become something and get credits… No, I think when it is done, the work is done, this comes back right here, and that’s it, and that’s why… the truth is so ordinary, when attention comes back to the ordinariness, it becomes extraordinary. That is the gem, this mind has to train, to be trained, to respect to honor This as the way it is. A mind which never meditated, never is not comfortable with this silence, with this stillness, this mind even if you tell them, what is the truth, this mind will not accept that. Because this mind is not comfortable with this silence, this aroma of the truth. The mind sees that, but mind bounces back to sleep. That’s what happens in people. I work with a lot of people, I thought that they understood, they just got it, not mentally, but I thought they realized what I am talking about. I felt that they have a robber bound, you just pull them… they feel like they are there, but the next time they call, they are exactly bounced back, as amazing, so disappointing. So what would you say to them to prevent that robber band phenomenon? I would say – meditate, I would say, you just need to go within, just jump in, and see it for yourself. In the meditation, again not that experience does not have to happen, that silence is talking to you. I mean there is nothing else in here, something is here, as observing this silence. Now, in your own case, meditation was almost involuntarily, it was spontaneous, you sort of had no choice almost, and people hearing your story might think, “Well, she is special, because even since she was a young girl, she was having this recognition that there was no one there. And then she went through life, she was almost overtaken by this periods, when she would lie down and all this stuff would happened to. But in my case, I am speaking as someone, I am busy, I sit and try to meditate, nothing happens, it’s boring, I am not like her, and maybe I can’t get this like she did”. That’s possible, and to be honest with you, this path is not for everyone. I am not saying this from the ego, from the mind. This path is that you need that number 1, that “burning desire” that I just mentioned to you. It has to be number 1 priority of you, honestly. If this is your first priority, then you can do it, then this opens up for you. But if this is in your “to do” list stuff, and probably at the bottom of it: “if I have time I am going to meditate… and now I have to take care of my kids my husband”. So go ahead and do it, that is your path. Because this is not, as I said, it is not meant to be that every single being realizes That. It is only for the beings that are so uncomfortable with this format, this play. My play was not that much of a horrendous play, but still was not fitting. I knew this is not it. For a fact I knew, so something was pulling me to find out what is the truth and what pulled me was just this way, I went this way… When I hear a story like yours, I think, well… I believe in reincarnation first, I don’t know if everybody does, but, obviously she built up a head of steam in previous life, she built up a momentum, so in this life, even as a young girl, there was that pull. And there were these experiences, and she just picked up, where she left off. Like it says the Gita: Arjuna says, “What happens of the persons on the path and then die”. Krishna says, “Well, they pick up where they left off”… and then they born in a family of a yogis where they are incline to do this sort of things. But, my response to that would be, that it is always a good time to start, even if you don’t have the burning fire and you don’t have this spontaneous ability to meditate as you have, start where you are, and there is always something you can do, and maybe that little spark will grow into a fire. Absolutely, you mentioned about reincarnation. That’s a belief, the mind believes in that. -It’s a belief, maybe wrong, but who knows. Rick, when you realize the truth, you will notice, there is only one thing here. There is no individual soul exist in here, so that it would go back and try to reincarnate. You know it for fact, it is not a belief now, you know there is this, all there is, is this, this is it. Because there is no individuality, that’s the fairness of this truth in each body-mind, that’s the fairness. Honestly, I think that if that was the case, that the story is right, so then people are born so differently, so different backgrounds and different advantages, that’s not how I see it. I see this oneness. One unbroken wholeness is functioning throughout these bodies. These are objects, this is not a person here, only an object. So, if this oneness is functioning here, what is left out? What is going on? Nothing. Even if the body drops, I don’t go anywhere, this is what I am always, it doesn’t come and go. This is not something that evolves, doesn’t evolve, this all game of becoming and enlightenment, this is all for mind, it is a mental game, because the truth never ever changes. That’s how I experience. Yeah, they get us into the whole levels of a reality thing, and ultimately there is no universe, I mean not only no reincarnation, not only no mind. But there is no body, no universe… A physicist will tell you, boil it down to its essence and there are no atoms, there are no molecules, there are no compounds, there are no organs, all that in its essence is unmanifest, you know. But if we give any credence whatsoever, for the sake, you know, there is this term mithya, which I heard you mentioned in one of your talks, which means dependent reality. The example often uses that of a pad, we see a pad, we put water in it, we put bins, we use it as a drum. There seems to be a pad, but really it is only clay, there is no pad, and for the sake of relative interaction and life and so on, we can acknowledge the virtual reality of all this levels and stages, and evolution and all that stuff, but ultimately, it’s all a fabrication. Exactly, and it is a miracle fabrication, this game of duality, the way… nothing is happening here. Right, and nothing ever happens. So, now watch how things are happening. Look at this, it is such a miraculous, and everybody, over 6 billion people, believe that something is here, and something is happening. Isn’t that beautiful? That’s a miracle, so you believe in this dream, ok? But when you wake up, in the background you see the truth. But then you play, this time you play differently, you don’t take it seriously, you know this is a play, for fact you know, this is not a reality, this is just a play. It is not even a game. Game has winning and losing, “oh I lost”… that’s not even a game. I am telling you everyone. This is just a play. When you realize that that’s the end of that. So just like when they didn’t know anything about the moon many years ago, they thought moon has its own light. So, some people worship moon and.. oh full moon… beautiful. Then they found out that the moon does not have any light. Moon is inert. So, the light comes from the sun. You know it now, but you still go out and enjoy a full moon. Still you write a poetry for the moon, don’t you? You are not going to stop that, but that is the miracle of that. You see what is the truth in the background, but yet you play the game. And that’s how it is. There was a story about Shankara, he was tested by king, who wanted to see if he was the real deal. And so as he was coming up to the king’s palace, the king let loose a wild elephant. The elephant came running down, and Shankara quickly climbed up a tree. Then the king said, “Hah, you must be a phony, if it is all an illusion, why would bother to climb a tree?”. Shankara said, “Ah, the illusory elephant chase the illusory me, up the illusory tree”. Absolutely, it is not that it is not real, it is real, I am touching it. See? This is for now. It is, and it isn’t. It is so temporary, you see things as objects. Everything I see and touch I know that is not ultimate. But for now, this is just a play. It is mithya, it is Lila. That needs to be realized from fully within. Another question, Rick I want to share with you, a lot of people say, so what is life after awakening after this awareness? Nothing. Life goes on, there is no a specific… People think they have this image in their minds that this type of people have to have the specific way they walk or talk or eat or kind of a lifestyle. None of that. This life goes on as a liberated mind. The mind that is not any more seeking for the truth. And trying to become God. End of the story. We were talking about this common question that I get, “What is the lifestyle of someone…?” (right). We just said, it is very simple. It is just the same way it was, very ordinary. You will be amazed how ordinary it is, but yet as I mentioned is extraordinariness in that ordinariness. You have to find this, what I am talking about. You have to be there, to realize what I am talking about. There is nothing missing, that’s how it feels. It feels like this is whole and complete. And it’s unfolding itself, there is no agenda, you don’t need to do a plan or anything. The way that I was: always have some agenda. There is no such a thing, a lot of things come to you, you don’t chase things. That’s how it’s happening here. That’s the only change that happens, if there is any. This mind is free from becoming, as so in peace with not knowing this. This mind needs to jump into this unknown and be trusting it always. Everything just unfolds naturally. Absolutely, that trust is important, when I am asking people if you are experiencing things, just pay attention to the watcher who is experiencing it, not just the experience itself, because if you chase the experience, that’s going to take a long time for you. Just before you meditate, when you close your eyes, be aware of that awareness, who is always here. Be aware of the peace, which is always here. And then, whatever happens, just pay attention to that, and notice that this silence is pointing out to something which is always here. And you need to trust that. That trust is very important. This awakening once it happened from the core of the being, it’s so self-shining. You don’t need to do anything, it’s just so here. But the important thing is that, if the mind says “Oh! This is so simple, this is so ordinary, that should not be It, it has to be something extraordinary, an esoteric, or as this lady said, the love and this”… that’s not good. That takes you again to the journey, so, I am emphasizing one more time, during meditation, nothing necessarily needs to happen. I think it is good you are emphasizing that, because some people just are naturally wired such that they have kind of flashy experiences and all but most people aren’t. And the people who aren’t, often look to those who are, and think, “Well, it’s not happening to me, I’m missing, because I am not having flashy experiences, so I must be so far away from it”. And I think it is good to…as you are doing, to reassure people, that it’s not necessarily going to be that way and it’s not going to be for them the way it was for you necessarily. But it could be just as legitimate. Absolutely, it is so unique for every being, I know for a fact that in everybody’s mind, entity, because they have different background and culture and everything else that’s coming from, the way that this thing blooms up is so different and unique. That’s the beauty of it. This truth does not want a copy. I know for a fact. And if God loves anything it’s variety. I mean, look at the universe, look at the plant kingdom and the animal kingdom, everything is an infinite variety. Even two twins, if they decide to do that, it’s not going to look alike. It’s going to be so different. And also knowing that, you are all already That. You see, this is like a circle going, starting, and when you turn around, you go back to the same exact point. You circle around. Point A. And then, when you turn around, you come back to that point, it is going still point A. This is so important to know. You are already there. But you are… there is a veil in there. Remember that beggar I told you, that they dress you in that beggar outfit, and now even this veil is just removed. Veil, I see you are saying veil. I thought you are saying whale. That beggar is wearing it. When that’s removed, that all there is, is you. There is no becoming here. You are already That. How would you reconcile the notion that on the one hand you are saying “know that you are already That”, with what you said earlier, which is that it’s not an intellectual concept and you can’t know it really by just hearing somebody saying it, such as you are saying it right now. How would you reconcile those 2 things? What’s to stops people from somebody just walking around saying, “I’m already That” when they don’t really realize it? That is a very good question. I’m so glad that you asked that. Excellent, you know. This message is not for someone, that is in the beginning of this path. I gave 3 or 4 different messages throughout this whole entire lecture. For someone who is beginner I would say, just go within, discover the truth yourself. And every answer is here. And you would advocate some sort of meditation for that person. That’s the only thing it worked for me, for this body-mind. This body needed to go to this cocoon. Put this cocoon around itself and stay there, and then all of a sudden open up and then fly out. That’s the way this body wanted to do. But if you have some other way you think, because there is no only one way. There are 6 billion ways to do this, let’s put it this way. But if your path, if you think you are comfortable with meditation, and that’s pretty much what all of Iranian Sufis and mystics are mentioning. Rumi, at the end of every poem, it says in … he says “jamush”, “jamush” means silence, silence, keeps saying that,. But they don’t introduce any specific methodology of the silence, how you do that. There are so many different ways of meditation. Mine was not any specific way, not watching the breath or any of that. It was mostly – “be aware”, aware of what comes and goes. Not even quieting the mind, because the mind quiets down on his own, you don’t need to force it, ok? So very important, even in this path there are so many people saying “Oh I have to keep myself quiet”, that’s not what it is. The awakening is not about a quiet mind. You awaken to the truth, of who you are, and the mind can come and go and there is nothing wrong with that, emotions come and go. And it doesn’t have to be any specific emotion, it doesn’t have to be always joyful…it’s not like that. Because this body is conditioned, this body has gone through so many things in the DNA and all that. So, let the body, just whatever arises in the body, it will arise As long as you know who you are, it doesn’t matter what’s happening in this body, what kind of feeling. So, that’s the advice you would give to a relative beginner, (absolutely), ok. People who are in the middle, you need to come into some sort of contemplations. Like this “I” that I am talking about, ok? Is there an “I” in here, apart from the memory, there are memories here, go investigate. Is there an “I” apart from this memory existing, that is claiming all this memories. There is no doubt about that, whatever happens in the mind, is happening. But is that true, that there is this “I” in here? So, sort of a self-inquiry you are saying, for the intermediate people. Yes, and also this “I” keep saying that, “I have to be … I am so conditioned… I have to uncondition myself”. Go and find out if this “I” is an authentic “I”. Is this “I” real? These are all questions I have to ask myself. And how does a person find that out? Just close your eyes, go and search, where is this “I”, show it to me, very simple, is this “I” here? Show it to me, where is it? You see there is nobody here. And also this is very important when you say “I”, immediately, you are going to the mind and the history. “I”, when you say “I” , in this minute, who you are? Always in the present, this is the only time there is. In the presence of here who am I? If you don’t go to the mind, because the mind has stories, so the thought, that separate sense of self is there as an illusion and have that story. So, this mind is not authentic. The mind tries to keep itself quiet. “I have to keep my mind quiet”. I am watching this sentence now. I am as an observer watching “I have to keep myself quiet, bring my mind over here, I have to be in the present moment”, who is saying that? You don’t have…, you are saying this is though, as someone who might say that. Someone who might say that, yes. If he says, “I have to be in the present moment”, who is this “I”? Because as presence, that you are, you don’t need to be present. Who wants to be present? These are the good questions. Ask yourself. The presence that you are does not need any of that. That “me” that is trying to be is not authentic. You go and see that. So this is for the middle people. And the people who are at the tail end. They have to jump, jump, jump…just drop as a drop. That means that if you really know that you are this awareness, this existence that is here, and you are totally one with That. It is not you are apart from That. The mind has to surrender. Your mind has to value This, and trust This. This mind has to know, this is all there is. Admit that, I don’t know how to say, just melt into This. Was that a choice for you or did it happen spontaneously when it happened? That was a little bit of an effort, (little bit of a choice?) Yes, it was choice, because at that time, the truth was here. But this mind keeps trying to become That again, still wants to be one with That, pay attention to That, just be with That…very mild… So you just recognize that you were doing that, and you just voluntarily gave up the effort. Yes, one day it happened just dropped. Yeah, it just felt like “enough”. That’s it. There is nothing, you realize that This cannot be known, but it can be live. You can dance it. But you cannot describe This. You know it, you live it, but you cannot describe it. This cannot be talked about. You cannot talk about the truth, the moment you talk about it, it is not truth any more. You can go and sit in front of teachers and they talk about it, they point to it, they mention it. But talking about it, does not cut. It just don’t satisfy you, it’s not awaken you. So if you are just using them and bringing home, and mind thinks, “Oh! I know I am able…”, a lot of people I get phone calls from “I know that I am awareness, I know that I am not this body mind but… ” If there is a “but” in there, I know something is not… There is no but, if you know who you are, that’s it, you know it. Like for example if right now if I ask you, Rick, are you hungry? Answer me, just anything. Well, actually I am not at the moment. Ok, how do you know that? Because that’s my experience, that’s the way I feel and don’t feel hungry, I had breakfast. Can you prove it to me? Just let me see how it is. I don’t know if I could prove it, (is that needed to be proved?) no because it’s my knowledge, it’s my experience, you know. That’s the same way with that when you know yourself. That’s the same exact way, you know this you don’t have to prove it. You know it. This is very important, this knowing is not…and that not knowing that comes from the mind, it has a wisdom behind it. That not knowing. It is a surrender not knowing. When I was a 6-year-old girl, that not knowing was a scary not knowing, that not knowing needed to know, have to know. It’s just something so puzzled. I really have to know that, it is like huge difference between these 2 not knowing’s. Huge… although both of them are not knowing. Both of them was the same experience. But one was just a not knowing who started a path, a desire a burning desire the other not knowing completed this desire. Although it’s not knowing. How could you not know still? But you are in peace. How could that be? That’s the miracle. You surrendered to it.. Fully, that has to happen. After a long and winding road, you surrendered to it. (yes) And I think, things can happen till they happen, you know. They can’t happen till they are ready to happen. You couldn’t have as a 6-year-old girl, you didn’t have a choice to somehow be like this now. You had to sort of go through all those things… sequentially, or I don’t know… I can’t say have to, but that’s the way it happened, and you didn’t appear to have any big choice at any stage of the game. You just went from one thing to the next. And then, you know, finally here you are Exactly, and what I also want to say is that, although I didn’t have any teacher and guru, I am not saying that you shouldn’t have, as a matter of facts, they can really, if the teacher is really knowing the truth can help you in the right place. Because they see you where you stand, where you are right now, they can guide you through that. But they cannot transfer you the knowledge. This knowledge is individual. So, I am not saying that you shouldn’t have that, but I am saying that you have to do your own investigation also. So, that’s why what I do is, I don’t have classes like that, because I really don’t want to talk about questions, the only question you need to have, one question, that’s a goal question and what is that? Who am I? That’s the only question I want to hear. If I hear something else, I cannot go along with that. Because these questions are being answered by other teachers. Let this people go, and answer their questions… get the answers, once they are at the tail end of themselves. There is absolutely nothing else they can do. Once this mind is at the tail end of this rope, then you can contact me. Because that’s the only way, and I have been for your backwards. And that’s for free, there is no donation, I don’t live my life like this, thank God, I have a good life. I don’t need to get donations, any of that. I do this for the humanity, I just want this message to go around and people if that resonate with you totally, you can contact me and I see where you are. If you are a beginner, I will tell you, if you are in the middle, or if you are at the end. I know some people are at the end, they are struggling so badly at the end, that at the end people who have to jump… I think I can help them with the mind not with the awakening. The awakening is something from within. It has to happen from the core of your being, but the mind is not necessarily surrendered to That. Mind still wants to play the game. That part, definitely I can help. Then also I have to tell you, all these people I talked to and tried to help didn’t honestly. It didn’t work out the way I wanted it. But there are 2 people in my life that are so ready to hear this. And I have to mention, one is my son. He is only 21, and he told me that, “Mommy, when I was up to 10 years old, I see myself as a vision”. A vision… The same vision (chip off the old block, as they say), that’s what happened, and he was explaining about it. Exactly that’s what it was, and I pointed out to him the awareness, the existence, that he is. So he knows, he is aware of That, he is aware of the awareness, but he is not fully surrendered, because the ego, the separate sense of self is still there. So he acknowledge That, because I pointed out to That. But he has to go through the path of this completeness, complete surrender and that.. So, that one, which is very easy. And the other one is my sister, she is in Hawaii, and she lives there. All day long, she was a meditator, all day long, in the beach, at home, long time. As I was talking to her over the phone, and I pointed out to the awareness, to the existence, absolutely… Bingo…. She says, “Oh my goodness, of course”. She was just shouting, she was happy, that kind of readiness… This is not a message that every ear, every mind can hear. This message right now, if there are people now listening, There is a certain group of people, they can definitely hear this, and…”Oh my goodness! Of course”. But there are some people who hear this but they don’t understand, they don’t comprehend, that mind is not ready for this, to hear this. So, therefore, there is whole bunch… That’s why this classes are so difficult, there are so many varieties of group of people sitting here. It’s not in the same level. So, whatever you are saying, it hits some people, it doesn’t hit other people, it is just so… the energy and everything are not really the way it’s supposed to. So, I definitely say, if you want to go there, go ahead, but just do your own homework. You have to do it on your own, this is something, it is like resurrecting, this means some sort of an effort. Not effort mentally, from this body, it has to happen here, so have that in mind and do not mistake the real truth with the silence. The real truth is not just a silence of the mind. It’s not just this stillness.. You are close, very close, but somebody has to point out to you, the actual truth, what is the truth here? And that is so self-shining. If somebody is aware of That, and fully that, and such confidence, and such beauty and joy and energy comes out. So when you see That, if it resonates with you, you say, “Oh my God, this is the kind of being, I love to interact”. This person can definitely help me. That’s my suggestion. Other than that, I just know, although this is a long way, but it is very worth it. Because there is a difference between you as a separate self of self, living this life not knowing who you are. But you as this whole totality, knowing who you are, it’s a huge difference. Huge difference, and I would say that even if it is a long way, every stage of the path is rewarding. So, it’s not like, nothing’s happening, and then all sudden, boom. It’s like some kind of a reinforcement as you go along. Absolutely, that’s why Attar has this 7 steps, (right). It’s an enforcement. You are going from this stage to stage and stage and it’s unfolding. It’s cooked up. Something is baking, something is unfolding, getting ready and finally blooms, and that’s it. Once it bloomed, done, end of the story, Rick. There is no more becoming, mind is free. This mind is not any more looking for…searching for things… desires… those kind of desires that mind has….gone. And of course, what you are saying now, kind of clashes with the popular notion these days that you shouldn’t think that it’s somewhere in the future, and there is some path that you are going to go through, and you eventually going to arrive at some goal, because that just gets you out of the present. I mean, maybe at some level that’s true, but also I think that as your whole story has illustrated, it’s not true. And there can very well be an unfoldment, that appears to take place in time, even if there is no time. And a realization that finally may appear to take place at a certain time, even though, ultimately, you know it has always been there, and so and so. To see a paradox thing. Very true, and I just remember when you said path, people think, path means from point A to point B. That’s not what we are talking about, I just said, you are in the same circle you end up with the same exact spot, so that’s not from point A. It is from point A to point A. But this way, it’s not this way. So there is the difference, this way. Do you follow what I am saying? It is this way, always here. Everything happens here. It seems like everything happens at the same time. Here, this way. The things are happening this way, that is the reality. The illusion of the mind, it seems that things are happening horizontal. It’s not horizontal, everything is here. And everything’s happening here. It is so hard to describe. Ultimately all of these happening are nothing. The end of nothing, there is nothing happening. I mean right now all of these talks that we have, that came back to nothing, to nothingness. So eventually ultimately nothing is happening. So, that is what I am talking about. The function of you is here, is not some future kind of thing is going to happen, no, this is like unfolding in here. The truth unfold itself to itself by itself. Excellent, there is a verse that Gita said exactly that. There is also a beautiful T.S. Eliot poem, I am reminded of here, which I can’t quote exactly, something about coming back to where we started and realizing the place for the first time. Absolutely, coming back to what we started, exactly that. That means nothing has to improve in here, that you are That already. See again, this message is for not beginners again, you are not that. You notices that all my goodness there is nothing to become, absolutely nothing to become. Because this mind was so into this, now this here, there is nothing. And everything arise from this nothingness, see, it just arises. Like all this talk that you hear, oh my God, this is just coming out of This. And it is so powerful, it is so energetic, people feel that energy. It’s not just some learnt stuff, you know, somebody is talking about. You feel the energy, that comes from this talk, it has a power behind there. So, people notice that. It’s just noticeable, it is very powerful, and that is what I am seeing in that body right now. This is the same exact thing, talking to itself, there’s only one. This is only alone. And another thing: that sense of false security, that this “me” has. “Me” and my God, that is gone… And replaced I would suggest by a real security. Real security is: all there is, is This. There is no “me”, you have to be very mature. This mind has to be very mature to surrender to this, it has to be mature, you have to have to stand up for this truth. And claim it, and knowing it, and knowing that is all there is. So, this maturity has to be there, that readiness to hear this, it has to be there. You cannot just know this and then go and say: “Oh, my god…”, and talk to God, conversation with God. You cannot do that. There is no two in here. There is no you, there is no God, there is no somebody else. There is no any of that, all there is, is This. This is all, there is, and that’s the end of that. So, that would be that what it is, very powerful, mind completely trusted This, relies on This. Although, it’s not tangible, although you cannot do this, but it’s so here. Beautiful, I can talk to you all day, but probably better not. But this is beautiful, I’ve really benefited from this conversation. I’d say more so than many of the conversations I had, it really kind of resonated with me, hit home to a deep level. So, I really appreciate it, and maybe we will do another one some time. Rick, I’m trying to write this down, I put it in writing. And again the whole path, so when the people read that, they see there is this way of doing and unfolding. I am doing that. So, within the next month, or so, I’m just putting some stuff in writing, I’d love to share that with you. I’d love to read it. Are you turning it into an actual book, or you just going to put it into a web site or something? In a website. As I mentioned to you, I don’t want to create a business out of this. That’s how comes from here. I don’t want to have a book, I don’t want people to buy this book. In this path, you don’t have to pay a dime, nothing. You can turn it into PDF and people can download. Absolutely. I’m going to put it in PDF. I’m going to put it in my website, but I definitely like to talk about this again because I’m sure that I’d get a lot of emails, talking, people get back to me and again have some more questions come up. And I love do that….So, that would clarify. Has to be clarified to some many people, people who are confused. Maybe we could do this, you know, after you have written the things, send it to me and I will read it. Then you can also accumulate a list of kinds of questions people are submitting. Also on my website people will submit questions when they hear this interview. Let me actually conclude by explaining that… There you know, this interview is posted on batgap.com, which is the acronym for Buddha at the Gas Pump. It’s also in YouTube. It’s also a podcast, and so on. But each time I post a new interview, there is a little discussion group often springs up around each particular one, and sometimes people get off and talk about all kind of things we have a general common section for that, we try to kind of encourage people to stay focused on what this particular interview is about. So, this all be posted there, if you have questions for Ellie, or questions that you would like to discuss among yourselves, please go there and you will find that. And also if you’d like to be notified each time I post a new interview, there is an email sign up thing on the website, where you will just get on the average one email a week announcing each new interview. I don’t sell the email list or anything, for those who don’t like getting spam. Please do that if you wish. And of course I will have a link to Ellie’s website there. So, you can go there, read what she is offering and getting touch with her if you like, but only if you advanced. (No I’m not excluding anybody) I am just joking. (Thank you) But anyway, so that’s a good conclusion. So, I really appreciate having had this conversation with you, and we will have another one and the next interview is Gangaji, so shall be coming up Tuesday night. Thank you everyone for listening or watching and we’ll see you next time. Thank you Thank you Ellie, I have really enjoyed this. Thank you so much.