David Ellzey Transcript

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David Ellzey Interview

Rick Archer: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer, and my guest today is David Ellzey. Buddha the gas pump is an ongoing series of interviews with spiritually Awakening people, you’ve probably watched some of them already many of them perhaps. But if you haven’t, if this is new to you go to batgap.com Bat gap. And you’ll see 325 of them at this count archived under the past interviews menu. There’s also other things to explore, including the donate button by virtue of which were able to support this whole enterprise. You may know David already, from my his participation in the SOFIA University panel discussion that we did in October, he was the mind guy who stood up and did a little mind thing. But he’s not only a mind guy, he’s a teacher and a coach. And here’s a little blurb in the back of his book, David Ellzey, has inspired transformation through teaching and performance for over a quarter of a million people worldwide. He has a guest faculty member at the renowned Omega Institute and a contributor with Deepak Chopra and Jack Canfield to the book, stepping stones to success. So David lives in New York City. And I have known him for quite a few years now because he comes to the science and non duality conference every year, and does some really brilliant stuff. And he did some things this year, which really amazed me, and I think we’ll be talking about that. And we’ll probably actually paste some clips of it into this interview later on for for those to those who are watching later on to watch. That makes sense. So David, welcome. And Thanks for doing this.

David Ellzey: Thanks, Rick, it’s great to be with you.

Rick Archer: Yeah. So as I understand from having read your book, the ocean of now you’ve been at this stuff for a long time. And by this stuff, I mean, both mine and spiritual aspiration. And you’ve blended the two together rather nicely. In a fairly unique way. I don’t know too many people who’ve done that. So which came first, the chicken or the egg.

David Ellzey: The mime or the egg. The mind egg came first. It’s the reason I’m only hesitant wreck is because it really feels like it was integral since I was born. And when I learned what mime really is, in terms of the way I learned it. I believe it’s a conceptual approach to all that’s happening in our existence. And let me be more specific, because that’s a pretty broad statement. Um, when I was born, and throughout school, I was always physical, I would rather be doing recess or gym or, or theater or music, anything that was physical, more than homework. My mom always said she doesn’t understand how I got through school. And she says, basically, you charm the teachers. So I had to give that up at some point because it doesn’t actually get your grades. Depends on the teachers. But it does. Yeah, exactly. And you can’t guarantee which one, so you got to learn to actually be accountable for your homework. So but the point is that I’ve always been in my body, as we all have, but it’s been my place of exploration of life. How do I master this? How do I do this with every finger without one getting caught? How do I you know, how do I. So since I was a child, I was performing in my front room. And even when I was three, I was putting on my dad’s clothes and looked funny, but I loved how people laughed. It was just great to experience. So the body and movement has been a part of my life since the beginning. That’s why I say this is an interesting answer to your question. And then, when I was 17, I studied mine with a teacher who taught using principles of Kabbalah and the simple ones not numerology and astrology. But the simple ones. most simple one, which is that in emptiness, arises form that returns to emptiness. So for the mind, this space between you are the camera and I appears to be empty. But to the artist, taught as I was taught the mind, I can create anything that’s in here that wasn’t there before and then suddenly, it’s not there. Or there’s a glass here. Wasn’t there? Now it is, and in your mind, you perceive it. But then it disappears. It’s the same as the transiency of life itself, isn’t it? So I learned mime from that perspective. And then each Hebrew letter, beautifully taught has a universal principle in it, and a vibration and a frequency to it. So olive, for instance, is the first letter of the Hebrew alphabet. And Aleph represents literally in the way it sounds coming from nothing in the air, so there’s nothing in the air and vibration of the chords and then and then the tongue touches the roof. So there’s contact between two, there’s the appearance of duality. And then it goes into form all left into the world, Allah. So then he would Samuel Avatar was my teacher, and he taught at his school called the center the Ceylon. Teacher. Yeah, yeah, my mom, teacher, and Kabbalah teacher whose parents were dad to rabbis. And it’s Grandfather, I mean, it’s down the lineage. And so he continued the teaching, but he used mind to teach. And what I was going to say was that when I learned this, it made me question at 17 years old, when I’m standing in an empty stage, how capable Am I producing the universe for others to see? Am I just a man? Or am I the bird, and the air and the leaf and the water and the fish? And you know, how open and unlimited limited can my mind be to perform?

Rick Archer: And there’s all that when you were 17? Or are you much better able to articulate it now?

David Ellzey: Yeah, it’d be of the Amb. There be definitely in fact, what was teaching me, he thought he saw enough in me to put me in his show that summer, after one seminar, which was great, it was all things are perfect, right. But while I was rehearsing, I’m supposed to step into a bathtub, because in the bathtub, so this was something I wrote, as I’m resting, I fall into water, and I go into this whole, this whole universe of water. And then I wake up again, and I’m in my bathtub, but just stepping into the bathtub, I’d be doing it. And He’s about this tall, and he’s French with me as a French accent with a big, huge Jewish hair and bald here like me. And he would say, No, David, does not it. You’re doing it, don’t do it. Just do it. You know, he was trying to teach me the concept of being a non doer. 17 grokking doesn’t happen. Yeah. Interesting learning back then,

Rick Archer: hey, I just want to throw in the point that Sanskrit has the same thing that you just mentioned that was it Hebrew, or does where there’s this said to be this name and form correlation between the sound of letters and words, and the forms with which they correspond. So so that, for instance, the name for this, the name for Apple, whatever that may be, would somehow in a vibratory way correspond with the actual vibrations of an apple. And there’s this whole cosmology that’s explained where the universe actually arises out of sound. And the first verse of the Vedas is sequentially unfolds the manifestation of the universe and all kinds of stuff. So it’s interesting that the Jewish tradition has the same way of thinking,

David Ellzey: we’re Sanskrit. Yeah, it’s the same. And it makes perfect sense. There’s no mystery to it, if everything is a vibratory frequency, or light frequency, or then it makes sense. And one of the things Samuel said was, Don’t speak too much, because you’ll use up your word. Jokingly, he was saying, Be Efficient, be clear and concise with what you’re wanting to say. And also what you’re wanting to perform as a performer. So he was teaching us if we want to show that there’s a solid object here, this is enough. I don’t have to go. Right, you know, which is what a lot of right which a lot, a lot of pantomimes would learn to do, because they weren’t trained in this more centered approach. So actually, pantomime got a bad, bad rap after a while, because there were a lot of people not mastering their body and their technique, but trying to do little things with, with way too much. And it’s hard to watch.

Rick Archer: not adhering to nature’s principle of least effort, least action.

David Ellzey: Simplicity.

Rick Archer: You mentioned earlier that mime and spirituality were very much intertwined for you. And but I have a suspicion I may be wrong, that initially they weren’t that you thought I’m gonna be a mind guy. And then somehow your spiritual aspirations began to blossom and become more more clear to you. Is that true or No? Were they really intertwined from the outset?

David Ellzey: Well, they were intertwined in terms of the mind work because Samuel, he told us that way. Yeah. And he introduces and invites you to attend based on that. I see. So you don’t really begin working with him unless you already are looking at the universe in some kind of cosmic questioning way.

Rick Archer: So at that stage of the game was was my um, training your spiritual practice, essentially? Or did you supplement it with meditation or some such thing?

David Ellzey: Yeah, at 17 I didn’t really have a spiritual practice. I was just on the quest. The quest of wanting to understand this I do know since childhood was I’ve always been I’ve always been drawn to understand What’s behind the appearance? I had an experience when I was 14, where I was standing on Texas Land where my family on some had been involved with a ranch for awhile. And it was nighttime in the Texas guys like the Montana sky or anywhere where there’s no lights, it’s like a blanket of stars from horizon to horizon, especially with our mountains. And in in a moment when I was 14, and I was standing there when nighttime all alone, I felt some kind of really life changing sense of presence looking at me from from the sky. And I just had a sense of some intelligence, some sentient see of the universe, and, and it scared me, I got really scared because I felt how tiny and insignificant I was. And then at the same time, it was life changing, because I really felt the enormity of it. I felt the Unlimited, I felt a felt sense of the unlimited sense of being. And what scared me about it was it made me realize that I had been helping a friend through keeping, being a friend of someone who was wanted to commit suicide in early days of high school. And I was good as a listener. And I always felt I was a good listener and good presence. But I realized I smiled a lot, you know, kind of this artificial, like, smile like me? Yeah, like me, a lot of that a lot of wanting approval. And when I had this experience, I realized that that facade was a facade. And it made me really, really afraid. And I started crying and sobbing, so for about an hour, I was just sobbing because I had no clue about what I was without that, you know, 14 years of this little body suddenly being told, Well, you’re not anything that you thought. It’s

Rick Archer: awkward. So this is not under the stars. He started sobbing.

David Ellzey: Yeah, wow. And then I walked home, just down the hill, and my sisters didn’t know what was going on. And they sat with me by the bed and my mom and and it was really moving because they were loving there was just love there. And I began to settle and then begin to write prose and poetry about it. In the first words that came were life is a puzzle, each person to his place, but only do you fit when you show your real face. So don’t put a mask in your place in the puzzle, because it isn’t going to fit at all. And I wrote little music to it. And so from then on, it wasn’t like I had a transformation that shifted everything. It’s just that it gave me the understanding, which has stayed with me my whole life, that underneath the surface of whatever I’m experiencing, there is this background, which is unshakable for me, even though I felt human. And I felt 14 years old, and I had crushes and I had broken hearts. And there was something in the background, which has now come to the foreground more. So that’s how I would say my journey has been. And then became my teaching, I learned a technique called the Sedona Method, which is a way to dissolve thoughts and emotionality to reveal their essential nature, which again, is consciousness or truth. So that technique has been an integral part of what I’ve been teaching and coaching with, in addition to self inquiry, and investigation.

Rick Archer: That’s nice that you got so serious at such a young age. When I was 14, I was primarily worried about whether I looked cool, and you know, how good a drummer I was. Nice, you know, girlfriends and, and whatnot. But um, took me a few years to sort of get that glimpse that you just Well,

David Ellzey: I was. I was too, though. I mean, that kept going. Yeah. But what was what was new was this groundedness behind it, which kind of has blossomed over time?

Rick Archer: Yeah, that’s nice. So I thought it was real sweet. The story you told in ocean of now about? Well, maybe we’re skipping ahead. So don’t let me do that. If we aren’t, but that story you told about being in the hospital with that boy who was dying. And, you know, I guess you’ve done a lot of work in hospitals and stuff like that sort of a Patch Adams kind of a guy. Yeah. 15 years. Yeah. You feel like telling that?

David Ellzey: Sure. Sure. Well, it’s similar to the idea of where I learned mine, because what you’re referring to is the Big Apple Circus in New York has this incredible program called the clown care program, and it’s similar to Patch Adams was created by Michael Christianson, who knows a patch and his son died of cancer. I mean, excuse me, Michael’s brother. Michael’s brother died of cancer and he was torn. He was torn into bits about it. And he prayed and he said, What do I do? You know, I’m a clown. I’ve traveled Europe I’m, you know, I can do this stuff. But my brother just died. What is this all about? And the message was make this easier for others. And so he the Big Apple Circus was a creation of his with a partner and he decided to create a clown program. And we’re where Dr. Clowns or minds or musicians or magicians are actors, entertainers learned to work in hospitals to make the life make life lighter for those with life threatening diseases or any anything in a hospital, so we created the clown care program. And for 15 years I was a clown and doctor were trained to be to work in hand in hand with the staff at a hospital, but also how to work in the room, because it’s a very different world. In the hospital, people are very vulnerable. Children, you know, who have tubes or whatever, when you poke your head in and you go, Hey, that may be too much. Yeah. So we’ve learned how to be what I call in the moment I put it in the book out the ocean of now because when I peek in the door and go, would you like to visit, and I have the suggestion of clown I don’t It’s not brash,

Rick Archer: you have a red nose or anything like that little tiny red nose, you

David Ellzey: can paint it blue, you can do whatever you want. And I have a little button, you know, you you clown is your doctor’s jacket. So I have a button that said, Yes, I’m pregnant. That’s fine, a long time. It’s a laundry. So we always brought humor, but we would peek. And in that moment of peeking, we had to assess and really be available to have no attachment to anything going in, not going in. If they said No, don’t come in, that’d be fine. Maybe we drop our hat and spend 10 minutes trying to get our hat off the floor. You know, saying sorry, I’m leaving, I just let me get my hat, you know, and we leave. And I didn’t I wasn’t attached to them liking us or so we had to really learn to listen and be inspired every second with what’s best a joke, physical comedy stick. We had bedpans, you know, in the room that were clean, and we put them on the hat and say bet pandemonium whenever we could, but the point was, there was one guy, young guy who was 16, who had cancer. He was a Hasidic Jewish young teenager and nurse came running to us and said, we always worked in partners into me and my doctor mench is my partner friend, Kenny Raskin. And she said, Solomon wants to see you. And we love Solomon for four years. And we went back and looked in the room and it was dark, and his father with pay as the beard and his mother with the scarf, and they were standing by the side of the bed, his mom was crying. And we walked in really slowly because Solomon had asked for us, but he was really almost unconscious yellow skin bones protruding and absolutely quiet. And his eyes were staring at the ceiling, his breath was barely happening. So in that moment, we really had to assess what is being called for here. And so we were very quiet, you know, we really didn’t say much. And then we remembered he loved the song. And my partner could play the you know, the pan flute, the flute, the plastic little flute recorders, he could play them out of his nose, and Solomon love this. And I would sing, I’m a little teapot short and stout. Here’s my hand or here’s my spout. When we get when I get all steamed up, then I shout. Sackett doing, maybe let it all hang out. And he always loved that. So we thought, why not? So we did that. And we finished and nothing happened. And we thought, okay, well, that was our gift. But I had this intuition. And I, as we were returning, I looked at him, and his eyes, his eyes in his face. And his mom was crying at this point, his his eyes went like this.

Rick Archer: For those listening on audio, David just did a little gradual smile.

David Ellzey: Yeah, and a little lightening of the eyes still touches me because I thought he was there the whole time. You know, we assume that people aren’t there, but he was absolutely present. And I thought, excellent, excellent. So we left. And about five minutes later, the nurse ran to us and told him that he had passed, he had died. And the value of that to me was to recognize how important we are in simple ways to each other. You know, our mere prep, loving presence can be transformative or end to life in a positive way before the life is over. You know, so we take for granted this simplicity of being present. And I think it’s one of the most powerful bombs for the soul, you know, powerful SAVs for the soul, this loving presence. It’s not trying to control you know, it’s not attached to outcome. And when I’m working one on one, I honestly feel like in addition to the questions that I’ve learned, that are useful, just being absolutely present, is part of what the soul is yearning for. Soul it feels constricted and contracted in pain. Sometimes it just needs loving presence. So in that story, I think that was part of my recognition and my realization.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I would surmise that all those years working in hospitals also must have had a very kind of refining influence on your heart and your ability to attune to other people, you know, because like, even in that story, you know, you couldn’t just barge in like a bull in a china shop and do whatever he felt like it, you had to sort of tune in to the situation, and do what was appropriate. And it was a very delicate, tender situation. So it must have been, you know, really kind of a heart culturing experience for you doing doing that.

David Ellzey: That’s a good phrase. Absolutely. We were trained also by Michael he was, he was a real angel on this planet. I mean, he’s still around. But in his teaching of us, he said, as best you can, when you see the physical form, don’t see the physical form. See the child that’s well inside? Yeah, so you’re performing no matter how, you know, some children were everything, tumors, but we end it would be impactful. I wasn’t to be really frank, though. I wasn’t really affected by it. I don’t know why. And he’s just been my nature. It’s like, oh, wow, who would look at that. And they wouldn’t change me a lot. I do know that some of the clones had children. Some of the team had children. And I know they were impacted more than I. Yeah. To see that and see children go through that. But for me, I would pretty much it’s why I’m able to work one on one so so comfortably with people is because I really don’t see what’s appearing as much as I hear what’s behind it in a deeper way. It’s just been my intuition since childhood, I guess.

Rick Archer: It’s nice. Did you ever see the movie punch line with Tom Hanks and Sally Fields? No, no, I didn’t. There’s a movie recommendation for you just there was a really sweet scene where he was doing comedy in a hospital. And it’s kind of one of his lesser known but best movies, in my opinion,

David Ellzey: it’s definitely an ego check. Because you can want to be funny. And if they’re going through a lot, and your energy is overriding what they’re giving you, you won’t, it won’t work. And you’ll, your ego will be deflated. And you’ll know. So this is a point in the interview, Rick, where I want to say something I have, and this has always been the case for me since childhood. Everything I see on some level is a metaphor for the deeper understanding. So when I talk about being in the hospital, and this ego check, ego check, it’s the same in life to me, you know, I can want something from you. And if I don’t get it, my egoic sense of self wanting approval or wanting to control you or wanting whatever, he’s going to be disappointed in contract even more. And so, like in the hospital, it’s the same to me as much as I can even do this interview or look at you and not know where this is going and feel comfortable about it. That’s the spiritual practice as well. So me,

Rick Archer: yeah, well, there’s a couple of nice phrases from your book that I wrote down, that pertained to this, you you say for instance, there’s a life force within you that is always seeking to preserve, persevere, and expand. And then it guides us because it is us. And then the key to success is to live from this cosmic intelligence. What spiritually, I look at this intelligence as a magnificent mystery, I am in awe of it and respect it when I aligned with it, or have quieted to feel its presence within me. And as me, I prosper. So, you know, I like this theme that of the sort of the presence of intelligence. And like you said, a minute ago, everything’s a metaphor. Well, every, you know, some people say the world is your guru. But obviously, if you kind of feel things this way, and understand and experience things this way, then nothing is arbitrary. Merely mechanistic material or anything else. Everything is just pulsating intelligence with something to teach us and to further our, our evolution, because as you say, there’s this evolutionary impulse of the universe. Actually, you quoted Deepak as saying that,

David Ellzey: yeah, yeah. He talks about it being the, the, I can’t remember how I said it, but

Rick Archer: The static evolutionary impulse of the universe,

David Ellzey: right, right. I love that.

Rick Archer: Yeah.

David Ellzey: And it’s happening right now. Even as the cells multiply in gallons, blood is coursing through the miles of circulates. I mean, something’s vitally alive. You know, whether we think so or not I was thinking about this the other day because I was listening to Joe Dispenza on one of his videos about how his vertebrae got crushed in a accident where he’s hit by a truck and he through his consciousness chose to look at the reconstruction of his spine rather than with rods, with consciousness on some level he in, in the dialogue and his talking about that, I was listening to how he was describing similarly to Deepak how we have gallons of blood coursing through the circulatory system and trillions of cells. And each cell has a trillion interchanges chemically within seconds. Something’s happening, right? Something, something that we can’t even fathom. And then we limit ourselves thinking, Oh, I’m just this father, I’m just a kid, or nobody loves me. And this thought comes in, and we actually imbue it with more intelligence than the trillion cells that just multiply. Right? It’s crazy how willing we have been, and it’s innocent. So you know, there’s no judgment here. It’s innocent. We didn’t learn differently, but we invest in thought, which is not even really even singular. Thought is a combination of neuro pathway events, which are trillions of little light, chemical, biological boom, and it’s gone. But we call it a thing of thought, then we invest in it. And as I invest in it, if you watch physically, and this is why I love the mind work, because it’s helped me physically demonstrate principles really well. The minute I’m with you, I’m present. I’m all here. I see your eyebrows, I see the energy coming out of your eyes. But the minute a thought comes like, Oh, does he like me, I actually divert my my attention. There’s still presence, but my attention goes to the thought running with you anymore. And I’m entertaining the thought and the thought after it and the thought of why and the thought of a different color shirt would have been better. And suddenly, I’m not even here. But I invest more authority in that. Which really is not even substantive or locatable. It’s imagined on some level, more than my absolute love, which just explodes when I come back present with you in this moment. That’s my experience. I’m really grateful for everything you do. And there’s this new relationship to you because this intelligence then comes up and surfaces to live with consciousness. See, it’s alive anyway, whether I’m focusing on thought or presence. It’s not it doesn’t stop. So then this to me, the spiritual question for all of us is, how much are we investing in the mind more than the absolute presence of awareness. And it’s that spectrum. There’s no final event where it’s completely gone. I mean, maybe Eckhart Tolle or Byron, Katie can talk about it. But you know, I’m not going to wait for a roach to crawl over my foot like Byron, Katie,

Rick Archer: or do you live in New York, right?

David Ellzey: No, it’s happened too many times.

Rick Archer: It’s like, it’s so ordinary that it doesn’t do it for you got to I shouldn’t be enlightened by now. Like a cobra crawling over your foot or something, something that wouldn’t ordinarily happen in New York?

David Ellzey: Well you bring that up, and I have to laugh. Because down in in Texas, you know, as I progressed, in my years there, we would go back every summer and, and I had this thought, Okay, I’m going to be imperturbable. I’m going to be so free that a rattlesnake because they exist on comes across my path, and I don’t move, right. So I’m meditating up on the top of his Hill one night, and you can you know, what’s coming. I close my eyes, and I’m meditating open my eyes, and there’s a rattlesnake, you know, about six feet in front of me. And I freaked out, and I roll back and get back in and go, dang, it didn’t work, you know, my dream. So both even the rattlesnake didn’t work. But what I do know now, I mean, to bring it back to what our conversation is. The practice then is to notice, am I investing in the next thought or not? Because there will be thought, I mean, the neural pathways are built already. So there’s going to be activity in the mind thought. But what I do know, experientially and what I share with, you know, anybody that wants to work with me is that it’s not to not have thought, like when your mind is absolutely still, then you’re perfectly enlightened. It’s to understand that thought forms will rise and fall, but they aren’t who you are, and they don’t have to have sway over your experience. And as that understanding gets deeper, it seems to be the icing on the cake, or the gift or the grace of whatever, whoever that thoughts do weaken because they see they’re not going to be entertained by you. And somehow the patterning if you want to talk about neural pathways, the little electrical impulses, if they’re not happening, they literally absolute accuracy, and pathways change in the brain, etc. So there is a progressively quieter mind. But I think it’s a mistake to say, I still have thoughts so I’m not free or I’m not enlightened. That’s not the point.

Rick Archer: No, I mean, I think if you didn’t have thoughts, you’d be dead. In other words, if you’re alive, you’re gonna have thoughts. I mean, I want to lift this, although, you know, I have talked to people, there was a guy who was it. Gary Weber, who said he hasn’t had a thought since his awaking, awakening. And that which was years ago, and I said, Gary, I mean, you know, don’t you, if you’re planning to, you know, book a flight, or you’re talking to somebody, and you’re working on a speech or something like that aren’t those thoughts? And somehow, maybe it’s our terminology, but he just couldn’t relate to the idea of having thoughts anymore. It’s just sort of like, everything was so spontaneous and immediate for him, that there didn’t seem to be any kind of mental intermediary.

David Ellzey: Yeah, that’s a really I love this discussion. I love this. Because it’s an interesting question, what I call

Rick Archer: It’s very mimey too, I mean, mime-related, is it not?

David Ellzey: How so. Tell me what do you mean?

Rick Archer: Well, I just like when I see you do mind, for instance, I don’t see you as having a lot of thoughts or thinking, Okay, here’s my next move, or something, I see you as being extremely spontaneous, and just whatever is coming up, just you do it without a lot of mental activity.

David Ellzey: Well, it depends on the performance. What you saw me do at the science and non duality conference was a conscious attempt to be that way. I asked Ron, who, you know, the technician to put a piece of music on and then I moved, this might be the place for a clip.

Rick Archer: There was an allowance that Rumi thing too, which I thought was awesome.

David Ellzey: Thank you, thank you. And actually, that quote, was on my Rumi page of quotes, but that specific quote, which I didn’t look for was from Nisargadatta. And I didn’t, but but the quote nonetheless inspired without me knowing where it was going to inspire me to create a story. So in that case, that mime that performance was based on improvisation and spontaneous activity into a story and that was really joyful for me. but a lot of times, I’ve written pieces. Like, you know, if you were to look on my site I have or on YouTube, there’s pieces that I perform that I wrote, took down and now when I’m performing them, there’ll be a moment where I go, Oh, shoot, what’s next? Oh, right. No. But the thing that you’re talking about that you saw at the show, I mean, it’s science and non duality conference was that I was I was like, if right now for instance, I move without knowing. I’m not deciding anything and yet if I let this become a story I’m not I have no thought seriously, even even the words I have no thought weren’t thought beforehand, right? There’s this spontaneous like Gary was talking about everything’s happening. I’m not thinking before I’m saying or moving, which I think is how we do life anyway. And then the mind comes in after. That’s how I think we experienced life with the commentary. And then we turn to the commentary and turn instead of the direct experience. And that’s why we live in what I call a dream state, we’re living the reflection upon life, rather than current moment. So if I’m doing this, then suddenly I allow a story to come. And I get a sense that this is like this, like a bird. So

Rick Archer: don’t do that. Don’t shoot

David Ellzey: it. Right, right. I go there for the story, right, whatever happened. But that happened without me planning. So I kind of understand what Gary’s proposing is that the mind quiets. Because there’s no habit of reflection and then re categorizing it based on our past, because that’s basically what thought is, you know, re putting it in another file, oh, this movement, or this reaction from Rick means to me, like my father, I’ve gone back in time to a file and superimpose that in the present moment. And if all that resolves that identity, then really literally, on some level, everything is happening without too much thinking. So I can understand his his proposal on some level,

Rick Archer: there’s a few themes that we’ve covered in last few minutes that I’d like to try to tie together and perhaps, extract a question from, you know, we were talking about the incredible intelligence that is all pervading, and how even, you know, what’s happening in a single cell in our body, and there are trillions of is beyond our comprehension. And, you know, we might add that if we had to consciously manage what’s going on inside a single cell, that cell would die. And if we had to do it all ourselves, we’d be gone in a second. So there’s this kind of vast intelligence that’s, that’s governing and orchestrating things. All right. And I think we would agree perhaps that essentially, ultimately, we are that intelligence, just from what science tells us about the way the world works. There’s this, too, if you blend that with a spiritual perspective, there’s the obvious sort of omnipresence, omniscience and omnipotence of, you know, the intelligence governing the universe. And then you you brought in the point about quieting the mind and a quieter mind enables one to be more in tune with that intelligence. So that, although obviously, we can’t, you know, know everything or do everything in a, in the relative creation, we can be attuned to that intelligence, which does. And and if we are, then our life flows with the same degree of perfection, that intelligence with which that intelligence governs the universe, even though we aren’t responsible for we, as an individual aren’t responsible for governing the whole universe, fortunately. But as far as insofar as our individuality is concerned, it flows with that same degree of perfection. So that’s more of a statement than a question, but I want to just throw it out there as grist for the mill here.

David Ellzey: Yeah, I would actually, I would reframe a little bit of it in that the vocabulary is really important. And I think it’s an essential part of the spiritual dialogue these days. Because there’s a real subtle, and I don’t know if you meant this, or you just were using words, because we have to to function, which both would be fine. But in the normal use of the word I need to be in. And this is what I wrote in the books by respect, you’re using the vocabulary I need, the more I am in tune with that intelligence, the more my life moves towards success, and an interestingly enough on for me taking someone through and for me, just in terms of the understanding, at some point, even that concept of me in alignment with the universe is still dualistic in nature on a subtle level, right? And so what hap makes it happen for us to feel the omnipresence of our own being is to begin to dissolve the concept of anything that I need to do in order to, but it’s how I write in my book, because there’s a progressive nature on the spiritual path. Otherwise, anybody like, you know, personally, I love Rupert so much because he’s so eloquent and simple and clean. In his very British presentation,

Rick Archer: Rupert Spira, referring to

David Ellzey: upert Spiro, I’m sorry, yes, of course. He’s very eloquent. And I remember at this science and non duality conference, Deepak was Deepak Chopra was trying to interview him. And it was challenging. I don’t know if you were there, but I was

Rick Archer: supposed to moderate that. And Deepak said, I think I’ll just do it and then later on Rupert’s wife said, I wish you had moderated it. Anyway, go ahead.

David Ellzey: Well, I absolutely am grateful for Deepak presence on the planet because he’s integrating all forms of, of Arts and Sciences, I’m really grateful for that. What was challenging for him, and it was an innocent innocent challenge was that Rupert really isn’t very good at commenting upon truth. And Deepak was trying to take our view of the audience and say, you know, a lot of people might wonder this, and how would you approach this? And, and he’s not very good at theorizing, you know, so Rupert would say, Well, you can’t you can’t imagine how to do that. Because then you’re wasting your time. And you know what’s absolutely true? You know, and Deepak kept saying, I know, I know, that’s true, but I mean, people, you know, and Rupert had a hard time, not just doing Satsang. And for that, I’m grateful on a song on some level, because he remains kind of a beacon for not sacrificing or compromising an absolute understanding. So this, this idea of quieting the mind to be more in tune with the omnipresent universe or omnipotent, omnipotent universe. On some level even that has to be questioned, to the point where the the quieting your mind is also the quieting of the identity of identification with being separate from this absolute. So it’s not once I do this, I’ve become more in touch with this. It’s more like, this is what I am anyway. And the only thing that happened is the mind quiets is the veils for the small Sheaths begin to disappear to a misunderstanding of who I am. Yeah, it’s subtle, subtle.

Rick Archer: That’s good. I mean, yeah, as you probably know, the Yoga Sutras. Second verse says, yoga chitta Vritti nirodha, which is the Yoga is the cessation of the fluctuations of the mind. And if we use the ocean analogy, then obviously the more chopped up the ocean is in waves, the more distinct and individuated those waves are, even though there really only water, the same waters, the whole ocean, and the the more quiet the ocean, as it comes down, the less you see any individuation. So it’s just a metaphor or an analogy, but I think there is something to and there’s obviously 1000s Spiritual references to back it up, there is something to having a less agitated more quiet mind, which doesn’t mean you can’t be dynamically engaged in an activity, you know, doing whatever. But there’s, there’s sort of an inner quietness that gets cultured.

David Ellzey: Yeah, and it’s fun, isn’t it? It’s a question of two approaches. One is, I will quiet the mind so that I know more of the truth. And the other is in the recognition of the truth the mind quiets.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I would prefer the latter myself.

David Ellzey: I do too.

Rick Archer: I mean the first one is like you have little waves in a pan of water, and you push on the waves trying to get them to stop.

David Ellzey: Right,

Rick Archer: create more waves.

David Ellzey: Right. And, at the same time, the work that I’ve been doing the letting go work, the Sedona Method is based on the principle of letting go, but before the principle and the technique was created. Lester Levinson, the creator of it actually had 20 years of just proposing I am as the tool, you know, like Ramana, but he’s Ramana Maharshi. But he saw that the mind was too active. So he said, Okay, I respect that the mind is active, and in the way of this understanding, so let’s give the mind something to do. So he said, Okay, let me define the ego as this sense of lack and everything done to survive this sense of lack. And that if you let go for in a nanosecond, this perception of lack, the egoic, ghost disappears, because you don’t lack you are the all. So he was teaching this technique for the minds current state. But in the end, he also said you have to let go of the one who’s letting letting go. So techniques can be useful on a journey, which

Rick Archer: is what Ramana said to actually, I mean, I have a quote on my computer someplace where he said that the vast majority of people actually aren’t ready for just a sort of direct, you know, fruition of the Who am I question there? He kind of encouraged people to do whatever preparatory things they were inclined to, with the understanding that it takes a thorn to remove a thorn and that ultimately they’re going to be dropping those things. Right. Was Lester a student of Ramana?

David Ellzey: Know the irony with Leicester, in you know, the fun storyline with Lester is he was a scientist and an engineer living here in New York City. I think he grew up either in Brooklyn or New Jersey. I can’t remember. Did you study with? No, I met him a few times towards the end of his life. But in 1952, he had his experience. He had a second heart attack. He had half a dozen ulcers. The doctor said, You’re good man, Lester, but go home. You don’t have much time left. So we had a penthouse apartment overlooking Central Park and he sat there in the chair saying what the heck happened? You know And scientists as you know, traditionally the principle of science is to study and, and pursue threads of understanding until there’s resolution, some new knowledge and he’d never done that with himself. So here he was about to die. And he said, Okay, I guess I’m the laboratory now. What am I made of? And he saw a lot of emotions. And over instead of dying in a couple of weeks, for three months, he sat in self inquiry, what’s the pain? What if I love instead of hate? What if I let this go, I’m gonna die, don’t want to take it with me, you know, he was exploring. And what he discovered was each time he actually had a little transition of that perception or his approach, or his perspective, his body began to feel energized. And at the end of three months, his body was so awake, that he had to walk for three days, the story goes without stopping just a burner, because he, yeah, he had unleashed the suppressed energy and the contracted energy of all emotionality. So he lived another 42 more years. But on that day, when he at the end of those three days, he was in ecstasy, on a certain level, this bliss of overflow. And he realized that that was tiring, too. And so he asked himself, What if I even let go of holding on to my happiness? Because I don’t want a piece of the pie because this bliss wasn’t here before. So that means if it started, it can end.

Rick Archer: Bliss, there were some serious blisters.

David Ellzey: There. They were blisters from walking, right. Right, bless you can get blisters, if you’re holding on to it, right, because anything you hold on creates blisters. So at the end of the three days of this ecstasy and you let go happiness, that was when he actually had the sense of disappearing egoic self disappearances separation. So I live 42 more years with this, what he called him in perturb ability, but it was the letting go of the perception of a little self that revealed his life for the next. So you didn’t know Ramana? That was the answer to sorry, it’s a long answer. But afterwards, he started looking for literature on what he was experiencing this absolute truth. So Ramana was someone he recommended to read. And also Yogananda Paramahansa Yogananda.

Rick Archer: I want to talk about the Sedona Method with you. But before we do that, I want to pick up on a point you just made, which I’ve been discussing with a friend or two, and that I don’t totally get, and that is the cessation of a sense of personal self, or little self as you put it. And the reason I don’t totally get it, I can get how you no one would say, Yeah, I’m a person, but I’m not only a person, in fact, I’m even not primarily a person, primarily, I’m this vastness, this presence is oceanic awareness. And secondarily, I’m this guy, or this girl or whatever, doing, doing different things. But, you know, I have friends who say that not even that, you know, I mean, there’s just had been a complete falling away of a sense of self seeing happens, hearing happens. And I say, Okay, what if you stub your toe, the pain is felt here, not by some guy in China. So there is still some localization, some personalization, and they talk as though there is oh, I have a headache, or I, you know, have car trouble or whatever. But, um, so maybe I just have not quite wrap my head around what they’re saying. Do you have any insights on that?

David Ellzey: Well, I think there’s a mistaken attempt to in a lot of ways, I don’t know about who you’re referring to. But I think in this kind of conversation quite, quite often, there’s a mistaken attempt to say that when the cessation of the individual dissolves, that the human experience dissolves, to never have emotional pain and never get upset and never get angry.

Rick Archer: No, they wouldn’t say that, they would just say there is actually no one having them. emotional pain happens, upset, happens, anger happens, but it’s not happening to anyone.

David Ellzey: Right. So I think that that’s fine to say those words. And and I actually, that’s my direct experience to that, even as I say, That’s my direct experience to the understanding is that there is an infinity that speaking those exact words. That’s my direct, that’s how I perceive. But it doesn’t change that I live within this full functioning world. And it is a sense, in a sense, dream, like because everything comes and goes. So in that sense, I equal that to a dream. But I don’t take that statement to mean that it’s a new identity that I have. It just seems to be the way things are functioning. I don’t think my mind or my identity is fast enough to own everything that’s happening in the infinite unfoldment of now, the AI is the thought after that tries to own it. So I can’t say I am this or I am that. I just know that as I say I I am both that infinite, and this vibration and this finger doing this. It’s all simultaneous. There is no I am that and this it’s all The same thing, it’s also appearing perfectly as David interviewing with, with Rick, that’s all the appearance of the one. But to dialogue about it and claim it to me is in the sense, I’m just going to use the word useless. Because it can’t be a philosophy. Or, you know, it’s, well, I

Rick Archer: wouldn’t say it’s a philosophy for my friends who talk this way. It’s their experience. And like many other experiences, we try to understand them, we tried to be able to discuss them, but where it’s just you and I are doing that right now about things. Here’s this quote from your book, if there’s no self who’s arthritis, is this a little Jewish? Humor. So I just have not totally grok the what their subjective experiences because my subjective experiences if I fall off my bike, which I did the other day, my knee is very painful. Oh, yeah, there’s pain. But you know, and now I’m limping. But there’s a untouched level of my life, which is beyond pain. And, you know, which didn’t which, you know, but there’s pain in my particular need, not in your particular knee, and I relate to that knee more than I do to your knee, some other guy,

David Ellzey: my knee, your knee? So that’s the actual question my knee, I think what’s been proposed is that you fall off the bike, you hurt your knee. And that’s all happening. The question, the question is not. I love this stuff, because it really is investigating in real detail here. What it’s a subtle understanding. And this is where I think some shifts are available for us. When the pain happens, you can build, you can rebuild, I call it reassembling, you can reassemble a youth that owns that pain and doesn’t like it, resist it and, and reminds him of when he was six. And it happened when you know and you lost your patella because you had an operation and suddenly that you is reestablished. And this pain takes is experienced in context of this, you that’s experiencing it. What I think is being implied in that conversation you’re having with your friend is that the less we do that, the easier it is to experience the pain on some level. Yeah. So the more we recreate or reassemble this little me, I call it just because it’s not the omnipresent. Me It’s this perception reassembled me that’s having the experience, that owner is what’s being questioned here. Because we can’t even find that owner. Really, if I were to ask you, where is he where

Rick Archer: you can’t find any little nugget. And the way you’re describing it sounds very volitional like, oh, we assemble it, or we don’t assemble it, whatever. And, you know, I would say and you would, I think, agree that you know, both in my experience and my friends experience, there’s no manipulation going on here. It’s just the way life is spontaneously lived. In my friends case, with without a sense of any kind of self, personal self, or that has seems to have fallen away. In my case, I still feel like there is one and I never like to pretend that I’m you know, anything that I’m not or experiencing anything I’m not i I’m obstinate in my ignorance until it has actually dissolved.

David Ellzey: Well, you know, what’s fun about this is because everything is consciousness, consciousness is even doing that being obstinate. That’s consciousness too. So if that’s the attempt to always fix ourselves to be more awake, I think is a mistake. That’s how you experience things right now. So you do. Yeah, you will need like your friend or, but it’s an important point, we struggle so much with self judgment, you know, oh, I had an emotion. Therefore, I’m not awake currently enlightened, or the awakening or the enlightening to me, is simply a sense of waking up from believing in this individualized history of a you. I can say I have pain, and absolutely not need to spiritualize that language. I have pain. I have a cough. I had a chest cold for the last two weeks. And that’s been my experience. So I’m using the vocabulary without having to divert it to say, but there’s really no one here.

Rick Archer: Yeah, no, I’m not. I’m not suggesting or advocating that. I mean, those people drive me crazy, you know, please pass the salt, who wants to salt, you know, that kind of thing. But I’m just saying that with graduate one, two people weren’t mood making or intellectualizing or trying to spiritualize anything. There is definitely legitimate stage of experience in which they say, there is no sense of a personal self anymore. And I’m just been trying to wrap my head around that lately.

David Ellzey: Yeah, I think that I think, excuse me, I have a cough. Who has a cough question. Who’s on First? I actually thought about doing the Abbott and Costello bit in, in this question, I thought it’d be real fun where you could try. I know it’s there was so witty, it’s hard to I don’t know, I think it’s just purely subjective. In the experience, I don’t experience a lot of what I can say this. I don’t experience a lot of commentary anymore, that I can say, everything that’s happening seems to just be happening. That seems to be my experience. When I really get suffering, it’s usually because I’m reflecting a lot on something, I don’t like it a lot, I judge it a lot. I think it’s wrong. That’s when I began to really contract a lot. Even while I was sick in bed for about a week, there was a part of me that was grateful that my body was doing exactly what it needed to do when it was coughing, it was trying to say, I want to get rid of you know, give me a minute. I thought this is hard. But on some level, I don’t reflect on it. It’s not as much pain about it. So whether there’s, there’s someone there doing that, you know, that’s a spiritual conversation. But what I can say experientially is the mind quiets. And that’s nice. That’s commentary. Yeah.

Rick Archer: I’ve heard some spiritual authorities say that Christ never suffered to take an extreme example, because if he was who he was supposed to have been in terms of his spiritual status or attainment, his primary, but reality was beyond the realm of suffering, no matter what happened to his body. You know, I don’t think many of us could kind of live up to that. But I suppose that’s a possibility.

David Ellzey: Yeah, it depends on again, we’re creating a him that’s beyond something. So all I know is that there was God there was infinite experience, infinite existence coming into form as that experience of Christ on on a cross, and there was probably really extreme pain, whether it’s that or not, right? That’s a concept to me. That’s a theoretical conversation, there was probably pain. So pain to who?

Rick Archer: Right? And was there sort of this kind of oceanic bliss that persisted despite the pain on some kind of relative level? You know?

David Ellzey: I don’t know. It feels like that kind of conversation is a always it comes back to me like as you and I look at each other, his eyes and on these computers and technologies happening, and people are watching and listening. This exact, this exact now is what I’m interested in.

Rick Archer: Alright, let’s get back to this now.

David Ellzey: But not just the conversation. But this is actually the only thing that’s happening. Everything else is commentary on this or our dialogue is perfect. That’s what’s happening now. But what is in terms of in terms of any counsel or any work that I do with people one on one, this exact moment is the work that I always come back to what is here, what’s here or contraction? Is there a sense of fear that’s connected to a story. And then we dissect until what’s revealed, again, is presence awareness that really doesn’t have own the fear. But maybe it is unconditionally present with the fear without judgment. And there’s a healing in that. So I don’t get into a lot of theoretical stuff unless it unless it returns us to this moment.

Rick Archer: Okay, so So David, you mentioned the Sedona Method in your book, and you say it was quite influential in your life. And for those watching this, you might want to listen to my interview with Hale Dwoskin, who’s one of the primary teachers of the Sedona Method and a good friend of David’s, we talked about that. But funnily enough, when I interviewed Hale, he mostly seemed to want to talk about the Vedanta and this experience he had had with, you know, this, with what’s your name, John Harrigan at the Kundalini Care Institute in Tennessee. But in any case, tell us about the Sedona Method and why what’s important, why you’d like people to know about it.

David Ellzey: Why, why I want to let people I’ll answer that and also why Hale went that direction. Because Lester, before He created a technique or a method was actually talking about absolute truth. So it was Lester’s original teaching. And then he noticed the minds activity as I said earlier in the interview, and he created some series of small questions that turn our attention to the illusory sense of lack and and from there on it dissolves and reveals truth again. So we just created this interim series of questions. And so the Sedona Method is really useful for me I at 18 years old was driving home from a party and exploded in rage I hit the car the passenger seat and yelling extremities extremities wasn’t an extra me extra. I wasn’t extremes. The legs were coming into your mouth. It was terrible. It was really ugly. It was hard to see too. With it No ExtremeTech IX extreme words.

Rick Archer: Yes,

David Ellzey: I was I was setting out I was upset obscenities.

Rick Archer: Thank you. Yeah.

David Ellzey: Thank you. And see when the mind quiet it’s hard to access. Sometimes it’s problem. So I was driving and I was just screaming and yelling and hitting. And I had been to a party where I, you know, you’re 18 you’re trying to fit in, you’re trying to say the right things and get liked and all that. And I done that. But some part of me said, What are you doing? You’re like, you’re killing yourself. You’re not saying what you want to say. And you’re saying what you don’t mean? Who the hell are you. And I was just, it was like, I was mad at myself for doing that to myself for being false, being false. And for like, 10 years, I had these explodes explosions of rage. Our family was, you know, they were good people. So we didn’t have a lot of I mean, they were nice. We had this tendency to be nice and caretaking. Good people really kind souls, but we never learned about emotion having emotions. So a lot was pent up at 18 and exploded. So for 10 years, I had this kind of type of explosion of anger and rage and emotionality. I never heard anybody or put my hand through a wall and broke a hand or anything, but it was scary. The amount of emotion scared me and the energy. And so when I was 28, somebody told me about the Sedona Method, and I studied it. And it was the first time in my life, where I had a looking glass that I could look through at what I was afraid of, and be able to approach it in a way where I still felt empowered, and not disempowered by the emotion. And so it was really, really important to me. And I think for a lot of people where they feel overcome by emotion. To be if this is important if if they have an A yearning in their heart to be free of the emotion, not just for the sake of so they can earn more money or which is valuable. But in the end, if they have a deep yearning to understand who they are. To me, the technique is really even more useful for how I use it with my, with my clients, so it helped me. And then as I continued to read Ramana Maharshi and Robert Adams and disregard that and begin to understand the Bhagavad Gita a little bit and some ancient teachings, it began to come in alignment with an even if I’d never read any of that in alignment with what happened to me when I was 14, which is, there’s something here behind all of the appearance. And so the Sedona Method helps dissolve the appearing emotionality, and resolve to a greater sense of clarity and peace and proactivity, as opposed to reactivity. So it’s very useful. And there is a point where it’s pointing to even letting go of technique per se. So it isn’t meant to be you’re not supposed to fall in love with the technique and then be attached to something new. It’s a means towards a deeper understanding of self.

Rick Archer: I remember when I was preparing for hails interview, I was listening to a lot of recordings of him. And I think I listened to some whole weekend seminar he gave, and he was kind of there was a certain standard set of questions that he would go through with every point sort of the way Byron Katie has her like four questions that she asked, Would it be useful to tell us what those questions are? How, how the Sedona Method would deal with a particular person in a particular circumstance?

David Ellzey: Well, it’s a universal, the questions like the four questions and the turnaround are universal as well. So for Byron, Katie, essentially, there’s four approaches, and I won’t explain all of them, there is a video I do on them on YouTube. But essentially, one is letting go of the perception of lack. And that can be lack of love, lack of control, lack of security. Because all of these once you let them go for a moment, because they cause the emotion. If I like this, I get scared. If I like this, I get angry. So when we let go at that lower level, the waves can settle down a little bit. You know, it’s like a tsunami. tectonic plate moves creates wave. So you let go the water down here and the there’s a settling. So the first is letting go of lack of control or love for security

Rick Archer: Can it be said in a nutshell, how you actually accomplish that.

David Ellzey: The letting go

Rick Archer: Yeah.

David Ellzey: Well, first, there’s first in the teaching of it. There’s a kinesthetic aspect you actually experienced letting go of a pen or pencil. It’s kind of a kinesthetic proof that you can and then you ask yourself, would you be open to you have a desire to be free of it? You know, Would you be open to being free of it if you could? And then if you have this moment in time, literally this nanosecond of looking me in the eyes, would you be willing to be free of it for a second and just see what it’s like. And so there’s a there’s a verbal exploration of it until a person or person says I can’t, you know, I can’t let it go in my work, not as necessarily the work of Lester. But in my work, I actually begin to investigate the concept of a you that can’t let it go. And we begin to realize that that’s illusory, too. And so the letting go happens with time and you begin to realize it’s it’s illusory. Anyway, what I’m holding on to the sensation is real, the body sensation. Anger has a lot of chemicals in it. So I’m experiencing it since orally, but what’s causing it is a perception of nobody loves me. That’s illusory. That’s a history. That’s a memory. So once that’s let go of the emotion can settle too. So how it’s done is just talked through until you experience it. And then when you do you begin to know kinesthetically, what it feels like.

Rick Archer: I think you mentioned in your book that it was in a Sedona Method class, maybe with hail that you had some really sort of watershed breakthrough moment. Is that you want to talk about that?

David Ellzey: I’m not sure I remember

Rick Archer: some real kind of a breakthrough. It was like an awakened your your big capital A awakening. That happened at some point that was quite Oh, quite a memorable shift for you.

David Ellzey: Are you talking about in my book? Yeah. Yeah, that actually referred to it in your book? Yeah, it wasn’t with Hale with Hale. It was with Reverend Michael Beckwith?

Rick Archer: Oh, yeah, that was it.

David Ellzey: Yeah, I studied with him. For a while when I was at agape in California, His Church was Hale the, it’s been progressively watching the work over 25 years, where I would go to the retreats once a year, and watching and experiencing my own progression, through that period of going to a retreat to get something, you know, I’m gonna go get more awake. And then with time, the more personal work I did the quieting of that concept of obtaining awakeness, and more my experience of what I call the Great disappearance, which you’ve heard me talk about which I think awakening is not an awakening to something, it’s a disappearance of what’s not true. And, for me, that’s much more real. And that’s why the letting go or the self inquiry, the investigation is so powerful, because we’re not moving from this state to this state. It’s a disappearance, which reveals the state of non state or whatever we want to say. But that experience with Michael, we were in meditation was 28 years old. And there was an experience of since 14, right? The sense of omnipresent sentient, something in the sky looking at me. And in this in this meditation, there was a sense of the body just like a ghost disappearing and trapdoor opening inside and me falling through the body into infinity. And even the me disappeared, and I could still hear birds and, you know, sense the body. But that was a moment of a glimpse of, of consciousness or awareness that wasn’t identified with the physical form. And it pointed towards that as a deep, deep truth.

Rick Archer: So it’s just a glimpse, it didn’t abide it didn’t persist.

David Ellzey: Well, what I, you know, anytime we talk about an it, it’s really funny. Again, in this concept of disappearance, I can say that it began the unraveling of the perception of a me identified with the physical body in this material world. So it began the disintegration at a deeper level of it was another saying there’s something behind all of this, again, from 14 years old, 14 years later, that it wasn’t out there now. It was actually also operating this. And

Rick Archer: that was over 30 years ago. So how was how’s it been unfolding since?

David Ellzey: I’m still trying to be awakened? No, it’s just what’s what’s progressed since then, is more joy, because I think what happens is as as the perceptions of limited, you know, little me, unworthy, not loved. Nevertheless, enough, nevertheless, as those begin that goes quiet. It’s just more joy, there’s more relaxation, there’s more ability to be present and be of service in a sense, or at least be present to, you know, to the inner work that I do. So. That’s been the progression.

Rick Archer: Do you ever find yourself even now kind of gripped, trapped, stuck? You know, kind of, or do you feel like those days are gone and there’s kind of a perpetual sense of ease and freedom?

David Ellzey: Yeah, two things I want to say. Just to finish what I was saying before, so don’t forget Francis Lucille says something beautifully, he talks about the fragrance of the Self and, and I love that because it’s like the fragrance of the best gourmet kitchen of all existence or non existence wafs up into our human experience and we follow the fragrance. What I can say when I say the word progressive since I was 14, and 28 is that this knowingness is not actually progressive. It’s not time and space based. So it’s not like the knowingness has gone from here to here on a linear scale, the knowingness actually feels like that in which the progressive sense of experience of it being true and beyond all other experience begins to be deeper. But the actual knowingness isn’t progressive. It’s It’s unfathomable and unmeasurable, and not based in time. So that isn’t progressive. But this human activity, knowing that’s what’s happening, you know, that can always be deeper.

Rick Archer: Yeah. So it’d be fair to say that maybe the, the appreciation of it, the attunement to it, the clarity of it, that kind of thing, is progressive, but it itself, by its very nature, by definition, couldn’t be progressive.

David Ellzey: Right? And that’s the celebration is progressive to it moves me to tears quite often. So I said that Francis, I was at a retreat once of his, you know, I had another disappearance while I was with him. And I said, Wait a minute, wait a minute, I had one of those with Gangji, and I had one of those was so and so. And I had one of these when Michael and I said, for afterwards, I took them aside, because I love him. He’s like a friend. To me, buddy. I said, Francis, this happened again, does it ever stop or like, is there a progression or? And he has this French accent, right? He said, David knows is, the thing is that, why don’t rinse your body, there is dynamic life, this progression, it never ends, he was saying that there is no end to infinity. So if we’re in this realm, there’s this progressive sense. And that was a beautiful way for me to realize, as much as I love this moment of realization. It’s even it can infinitely be deeper. It’s a beautiful gift.

Rick Archer: Nice, good French accent.

David Ellzey: Thank you. Actually, I impersonate Francis at his retreats, he gives me the right, he gives me his

Rick Archer: You get up and do a little stick with a no stick is just. Yeah. Incidentally, for those watching live, it looks like there’s about 70 people on I don’t know if the question form is working or not. We’ve had trouble with the one on the upcoming interviews page. So if you submit a question there, and I don’t ask it to David, go ahead and send it to rick@batgap.com. And I’ll ask it. Okay, so you work with people, what do you do?

David Ellzey: So it’s called coaching, of course, in the monocular. What it is basically doing is investigating and then using the Sedona Method and self inquiry and just rational, rational approach to what appears to be real and what’s not real, and what that reveals more of a sense of calm peace and presence. So I work with people, CEOs, I work with mothers that work with people going through divorce, raising, single parenting, people, in relationship anywhere in the world. I mean, I have clients, I’ve had hundreds and hundreds of clients and done 1000s of hours of this investigation where someone presents an issue. I have one, I have clients who are parents, right? And so there’s always these issues around how much control to exert, how much allowance to allow, what parameters are correct what are based in fear. And so when emotions are quieted, emotionality based on again, fear of not surviving fear of doing it wrong wanting approval. When those quiet, you basically have a greater sense of what to say, how to say it, and its impact is different, its impact is higher, because if you’re not infusing the commentary with covert energy, the child like an animal senses the covert energy as well and can relax if you’re not sub, you know, subconsciously trying to control them. They can actually listen better and not be on a defense same in adult relationships. So my coaching is basically to help people dismantle their unconscious, habitual emotionality and perceptions of who they are to reveal a greater sense and this is, you know, I want to say this here. I feel like it’s really important on this spiritual quest. That that they’re not Be this preponderance on transcendence because if I have a client that, you know, wants spiritual transcendence, that’s fine, you can begin to get peaceful in this moment. But if your kid screaming and come running in, you can’t say I’m busy. You gotta say, What do you want? You wanted that for the last 12 weeks? What’s up with that? Talk to me, you know, and they go, you can go into emotionality. Or you can stay calm and say, Okay, I get it, I get it, sit down for a minute, let’s talk about this, you know, use words, use words, you know, talk to me. It’s a different energy than Shut up, you know, which is needed. Sometimes I guess, if you need to be clear and strong. But the cleaner your energy is, the more impact you are, and have in any any place in your life. So that’s what I do. I help people really dismantle unconscious emotions and unconscious thinking to become more conscious. And live life from that. Yeah,

Rick Archer: I would say there’s a place for transcendence, but it has to be integrated into active life. And then it’s no longer really transcendent. It’s just kind of provides a foundation upon which activity can be more successful.

David Ellzey: Right. Again, it’s the absence of the emotionality or the historic you that thinks they can’t do it. When that quiets the ICANN is more strong. So yeah,

Rick Archer: I agree. And your book, you have this section of five keys for unlocking success, the joy of living choose your life to find stillness, beyond thinking taste the quantum soup and live beyond war. Do you want to run through those a little bit?

David Ellzey: Sure. I just noticed this, this light here, there’s a

Rick Archer: there’s light and there’s dark. Yeah.

David Ellzey: My hands are in lightening right now.

Rick Archer: Right? Look at that. Whoa, I’m having any.

David Ellzey: Okay, just watch the hand. It’s a very strong Hebrew symbol. Watch right here. Now you’re enlightened. Yeah, that’s the thing about physicality for me is everything is is material. You know, I almost disappear. I don’t know how, how it happens in there. But this is a love this. See, everything’s a metaphor. This is why I’m so in love with this idea of everything being cared for. So here I am thinking I can’t live my life. Nobody loves me. And I’m behind this veil thinking everything out there is that same thing as I’m thinking here. But when we when we let go of the veil, we actually come forward, literally into light, the light shines warmth of the sun, we can see more clearly. That’s what we’re doing is we’re stepping out of darkness, metaphorically into a stronger sense of light. So sorry, I just had to throw that in because it was such a nice addition.

Rick Archer: And for those listening on the audio podcast, there’s this if David leans forward, the sunlight hits his face. And if he leans back, it doesn’t. And that’s what we’re referring to here. So there’s a little metaphor going on in the video.

David Ellzey: I keep forgetting the audio. Yes. So your question was about those five things. So again, it’s perfect that you asked that right now, because we can live. Of course, who else would be more perfect than you? As conscious? So those five was five elements there, you know, so the inner work is essential. How am I unconsciously repeating my life? How am I living from reassembled perceptions of myself since childhood? So those questions have to be asked, as I dissolved them to see through them or let them go. What’s here, then you can make some choices about life that support the continued living at a higher level of consciousness. And those five things are our ways to do that. And to express higher consciousness and living, find the things that bring you joy. For instance, I love the sun, for example, right? So if we weren’t on T on TV, on video, I would just sit and feel the warmth on my skin. Because I could be here forever. So that’s a joy. So if I know it is, make sure I can have it when I can. So it’s just a matter of supporting joy. The second one is, what’s the life? Yeah, so be conscious if you’re surrounding yourself with people that that don’t support, living with more happiness, that are used to complaining and believe everyone’s to blame and the world is only bad. That energy is going to support your sense of happiness. So just be aware. Just be aware of who you’re surrounding yourself with. And if you’re thinking about changing, have honest conversations, you know, it’s part of your strengthening and grounding and standing as some people say standing as consciousness. You know, take your stand as consciousness take your stand as awareness. Talking about this is really an essential part of it, not thinking you have to be ashamed of it or hide your spiritual journey.

Rick Archer: So in other words, you want to be around people Whoo hoo are appreciative and supportive of your spiritual journey. That’s

David Ellzey: Yeah, And you have there’s, you know, mutuality in what’s the third one.

Rick Archer: Find stillness beyond thinking.

David Ellzey: Yeah, so that’s, you can there are many paths to the song, right? Many rays. So meditation, letting go. Different techniques that quiet the mind. Stillness is always here. It’s not like it’s not, we don’t have a choice. It’s behind and in between all sound and vibration, and it’s out of which vibration appears. And so it’s here. It’s what I would call the infinite potentiality bowl. So it’s, it’s this unformed. So practice giving yourself moments of it, because I think it’s like drinking from the well. too important.

Rick Archer: The next one is from the soup Nazi thanks to quantum soup.

David Ellzey: Yeah. You know, I never saw that episode.

Rick Archer: Oh, he was in a lot of episodes. It’s referring to Seinfeld there was a soup Nazi. And he, you know, he would stand in line, he’d be really strict, and people would come up for soup. And he’d say no soup for you.

David Ellzey: Right? Right. So yeah, so quantum soup is the idea. It’s hard to use words about it. But it’s the idea that there is no fixed entity or fixed Ness in all existence, because everything is a continual conflagration of appearing particles, out of the wave form of infinity timeless space into a time atoms, subatomic particles, molecules. And this appearance, but none of this is fixed. Never has been. So even a thought is not representing a fixed reality. Even a thought is remembered, or memory is remembered only on certain levels of what actually happened. So to invest and give authority to the idea that what’s now is fixed, is not being open to what’s potentially a really exciting or resolution oriented moment. So the quantum soup is staying open to the unfolding infinite elements of this moment without fixing a mental mindset. And taking away the opportunity of it being better than it is or more resolved, or more loving, or whatever

Rick Archer: remains something that Brian Swimme said, as a physicist, that the Big Bang isn’t just something that happened 13 point 7 billion years ago, it’s something that is continually happening, you know, that the universe is just sort of manifesting out of this infinite ocean of potentiality at every moment.

David Ellzey: It also and why is this relevant? You know, in this conversation, it’s relevant. Because if if your work at it, booty in the gas pump is by the way, it’s a great title. If you work if all of this is about exploring, awakening, and I love your title of awakening, people not awakened because they’re not

Rick Archer: awakened. And I changed it because I realized that was not right.

David Ellzey: No, and for this exact reason, there is this this unfoldment continually. And so life if life is considered that way, we don’t even get to hold on to fear. Because we’re fearing something, we’re imagining a fixed image. Let that go and everything unfolds. And you align with a better unfoldment if you do so, with your heart open, with less fixed mindsets and thoughts. So this opening of awakening is awakening to the perfect unfoldment of the universe.

Rick Archer: Nice. All right, well, we’ve covered quite a bit various various things. What haven’t we covered that half an hour after we stopped this interview, you’re gonna think we should have covered that

David Ellzey: good question. You know, as I, as I Be quiet and listen I see sunlight pouring across the New York skyline and, and on my shirt beneath the camera, I think. And I’m aware that this moment is is absolutely rich. And that’s why I wrote the book The ocean of now. There’s a misnomer even in the word now because it refers to an hour then Right? Or then or, and there’s actually not even an end to the now. Even that’s a mistaken understanding of the continuum or the non spacetime based existence. So in this moment right now, as people are listening, or watching I really invite you to listen to this moment without project putting onto it anything without wanting to know what I mean? Without wondering about what time it is. Or if those thoughts come let them come and let them go. And experiencing what it means really literally, to simply be, not even be present, but be this unfoldment. Imagine the body unfolding, you know, the trillion cells replacing itself every second. Just imagine the reality of that, that this form that you can see on the video is actually not a fixed entity. It’s trillions of cells are disappearing and new ones are coming in. We can’t fathom it. So the only thing that I would say wreck an answer to your question is that, to me, everything we’ve said in this very fun and enjoyable interview with you, refers back to this unfoldment of now, which is, can have emotions in it. There’s no picture of even what this is supposed to be like. But the acceptance of it, or the unconditional place in which it’s occurring, or uncondition. ality, that’s the, that’s the celebration, not just the thing that’s appearing. But that in which it’s appearing, that’s the celebration, any word you choose to give it? So I think anything else that I would want to say right now is gratitude, thank you for, for this opportunity to talk with you and be with others. And that’s what came to mind when you asked,

Rick Archer: good. And I would just throw something in here, although that was a very good ending. And maybe we’ll even cut this off. But, you know, edit out what I’m about to say. But we were watching an old Dustin Hoffman movie last night. And he played armed robber who had just gotten out of jail, and it was getting back into crime and all and he was hanging around and interacting with these various people. And I was thinking Kali, you know, there are a lot of people out there whose existence is so bleak, and whose sort of appreciation of what’s going on is so not I don’t want to say stunted, so sort of dry and without any kind of fulfillment, or or uninspired, I mean, throwing in the word, I was thinking, you know, hopefully, there is some kind of global awakening taking place, because it’s painful to think of the billions of people living such an on fulfilled existence. I mean, if you if you look at the statistics of the number of people in the United States, who take various kinds of mood altering drugs in order in order to get by that kind of thing. And you can trust that with the joy and the fulfillment that, you know, probably you and I would both say, we are living in many of the people watching this having pursued spiritual development for so many years. It It inspires me to encourage people to, you know, give their attention to this. And we’re probably preaching to the choir here, because the people watching this already are doing that. But the more and this is part of the my motivation for doing this show, the more people can sort of turn their attention to the the joy and the wonder that is so rich in every moment of living and actually begin to live that, the better it will be for them and for the world as a whole.

David Ellzey: I would be in agreement. And so again, if we return to this present moment, as you’re speaking, I feel a tenderness in my heart, a little bit of sadness, right. And I feel yours in a way it would be a pity or tragedy for the human species to not be able to experience this happiness which is possible or, or contentment, or love. And so you bring up a point that I’ve been thinking about the last couple of days about creating a video about or something, which is we read and see negativity in general, that’s what the news is, for the most part, and yet, what I’m really conscious of, especially living in New York City with 8 million people, if I were really to film, all of the kind acts that took place, they would explode the news. They would explode all new stations, they would explode the internet. Because consciousness is still yearning, and it will always yearn to expand, right to grow in the amount of love that I see. Also, if I would love to videotape how many times a door was open for somebody or somebody helps someone up with subway step, or they let somebody else go first, or somebody gave somebody on the street, something there last dollar or so I just want to put out there that I’m in agreement. These are dark times in many ways the Earth has been plundered, you know, climb I met and fear and greed and all those things. But I would also invite everybody that’s listening in context of what you’re saying, Rick, to stay open to this possibility of the infinite acts of kindness right now that are happening, that humanity is not lost in that sense. And it’s it’s heartening for me to remember that. And so I hope people are on a journey of love and kindness and spirituality. But there’s also this groundswell of kindness which humanity still has towards itself. You know, I saw, I saw a Muslim woman that went to rally for the Republican leader, I don’t even really love saying his name, but. And she was the only one in the audience and he kicked her out. But she spoke on CNN afterwards, or some news station. And she said, I just went, because I believe they don’t know who I am. And I don’t know who they are. And if we did, this would all change. And she said, there were so many people that said, I’m sorry, this is happening to you as she was walked out.

Rick Archer: Well, she causing a fuss, or did you just kick her out because she was Muslim.

David Ellzey: She stood up and she just stood up while he was speaking. That was her statement. And people around here were shaking her hand and they liked her. And they, you know, people were nice. So, unfortunately, in certain arenas, people’s emotions are hijacked, and then utilized in politics a lot. And she was beautiful and eloquent. She was a stewardess. Basically, she was she just practice Islam. And she stood there, and people were kind to her. And she said, that’s all I wanted to know. And to show is that even amidst this fear attitude, the human heart remains available. So I think that’s a, that’s the spirituality is the human heart. You know, whatever path we choose to follow.

Rick Archer: Nice. Well, let’s end it on that note, because it’s a sweet note. So let me just make a few concluding remarks. I’ve been speaking with David Lz, as you know, and his website is David LZELL, z ey.com. And I’ll be linking to it from his page on batgap.com. And there also, as I said, In the beginning, you’ll see all the other other interviews I’ve done, archived and categorized in various ways, place to sign up for the audio podcast, a place to sign up to be notified by email each time a new one is posted, the donate button, and a bunch of other things if you search around a little bit. So thank you, David. And thanks to those who have been listening or watching. And for those who have been watching live, David will be will be splicing in a few of David’s mind routines, maybe the one from San where he did ruin me or something. Well, David will decide what he wants to splice into the conversation. So you might want to watch this again in order to catch those. And you must have also some of that stuff on YouTube. Right? And on your website. Yeah,

David Ellzey: you can go to YouTube or Vimeo and just put in my name, and you’ll find my channel.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I think people will enjoy watching those. Yeah, I

David Ellzey: think so too. I think so too. Yeah. And there’s some on my site, too. If you go to watch, listen, my site has some videos that are about these topics. Great. Thanks, Rick. It’s really a pleasure to be with you.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Likewise. So see you in October, if not sooner, on the October 7 conference. Yeah. All right. Thanks. Pleasure.