Summary:
- Spiritual Journey: Constance shares her intense spiritual search and practice, including hours of meditation while balancing life’s responsibilities.
- Teachings and Practice: She discusses her teachings influenced by Theravada Buddhism, her online classes, and her memoir “A Time for Awakening”.
- Life Challenges: The interview touches on Constance’s personal challenges, including her childhood experiences and her role as a parent.
- Awakening Experience: Constance describes her awakening in 2008 and the profound changes in her consciousness and perception of reality.
This interview provides insights into Constance Casey’s spiritual path and her guidance for living a peaceful life.
Full transcript:
Rick: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer. Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of conversations with spiritually awakening people. All those words in the previous sentence were chosen carefully. I’ve done over 700 of these now. If this is new to you and you would like to check out previous ones, go to batgap.com and look under the past interviews menu. This program is made possible through the support of appreciative listeners and viewers. So if you appreciate it and would like to help support it, there are PayPal buttons on every page of the website and a page that offers alternatives to PayPal. We have had a project going on for a few years now of having transcripts of all the interviews properly proofread. The end is in sight, but there’s still quite a few to do. So if you would like to help proofread some transcripts, get in touch. And we also have something called the BatGap Bot, which is an AI chat bot to which I’ve uploaded tens of thousands of relevant documents, and it’s getting more and more popular. So if you’d like to check that out, go to BatGap and you’ll see a menu item for that.
Okay, my guest today is Constance Casey, MDIV. I’ll tell you in a minute what that is. Constance is an author and teacher providing spiritual guidance for those interested in living a gentle and peaceful life. That sounds nice. Constance offers guidance for those entering deeper practice into the nature of reality and adjusting to a shift in consciousness. Her awakening occurred in 2008. She’s been practicing in the contemplative arts for over 40 years, first through her years in recovery, and then as she deepened in Buddhist practice in 2007, which she shares in her memoir. This is her memoir. It’s called “A Time for Awakening.” I read it in the previous week or so. She’s a graduate of the Spirit Rock Dharma Leader Program. Some of her teachers include Trudy Goodman and Jack Kornfield. Constance obtained a Master’s of Divinity focusing on religious studies and went on to do hospital chaplaincy work. As an interfaith hospital chaplain, she offered compassionate care for patients and families while embracing the spectrum of human experiences. However, she tells me that work tapered off because they weren’t too crazy about Buddhist chaplains, but anyway, we’ll talk about that too. She’s also authorized by Naropa University to teach meditation. Constance’s practice is primarily informed by the suttas in Theravada Buddhism, where she has developed her own online classes, the most recent one being called “Clearing Skies, Dispelling the Clouds that Hinder Us,” and she leads support groups for dedicated meditation practitioners. Through her experience, she respects and values your unique spiritual practice and journey, while supporting you to find balance and significance in the face of adversity. Constance will encourage you to attune toward being more mindful and aware for release and serenity. Her first book, which I just held up, called “Time for Awakening”, a memoir, shares her story of awakening and deeper meditation practice and is what brings her to our meeting today. And so welcome, Constance.
Constance: Thank you, Rick.
Rick: The main thing that hit me about your book, the main impression I was left with, was the ardency and intensity of your spiritual search. There are a lot of spiritual teachers and also various scriptures such as Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras which correlate the determination or the intensity of the seeker with the speed and fullness with which realization is attained. And Patanjali actually breaks it down in terms of lukewarm and medium and vehemently intense, and he says those are the ones that get it the fastest. And the impressive thing is that you had this really burning desire and you put it into practice with hours and hours and hours of meditation, many of which were not all that comfortable, and in the meanwhile, you’re renovating a house, building websites, raising kids, dealing with all the vicissitudes of life, and you managed to balance that. A lot of people when you tell them about this kind of thing, they’ll say well I’m just too busy I couldn’t possibly spend 20 minutes meditating. I don’t have time. I would say to all of them, well then time has you! So anyway, congratulations. It was inspiring to read your story.
Constance: Well thank you Rick, I’m really glad to hear that. I’ve heard a lot of different things about the book and everyone has a different reaction. And I’m really glad that you brought that up about the ardency and the different ways of tuning in, our different levels of ardency. The Buddha also described four different levels of people who are open to receiving the Dharma. And he said that there were those who had a lot of dust in their eyes. In fact, he was so concerned on the night of his awakening that he didn’t think he would want to teach because he thought “this is very subtle. This is very difficult, and there’s maybe too many with dust in their eyes”. And then he was visited and told, “No, there are some. There are some.” And he assessed that there were four different levels. Those with too much dust may need many, many lifetimes to really work with getting grounded in kindness and gentleness and honesty in their lives and connection. And those people are learning a lot. And then there’s another level of people who are learning through mistakes, lots of mistakes and falling back and getting back up and falling back, getting back up. And then there are those that are really listening and kind of getting it, kind of clicking. And then there are those that really get it. They just need a little bit of instruction and they get it. And I feel that in this lifetime, I was like the third. I was falling up, falling down. In my book, it may seem like it happened in just one year, but no, it was a long practice.
Rick: Yeah. I am inclined to believe in reincarnation, and when I meet somebody like you, and I’ve met many people about whom I could say this, I figure, well, you’ve been at this for quite a while, and you’re just picking up where you left off.
Constance: Right. Right, exactly. Exactly. And I just really want to impress upon your listeners and anyone out there who’s listening right now, the importance of this precious human life. How beautiful and important this life is. The life that you have right here on this earth is a divine expression. And if we can just tune in to just pause right now, wherever you are, if you are washing your dishes right now, or you’re out in the yard, raking, and listening to this on a podcast, can you just take a pause? Because really, it’s about being here right now. Can you just tune in? Even if you’re washing the dishes right now, can you feel the temperature as you’re washing the dishes? Can you just really tune in and be more present in your life? Because even for me, right now I’m sitting here and I’m thinking this conversation is the most important thing because it’s right now.
Rick: Yeah.
Constance: It’s happening right now. And so, even as I pick up my tea, I enjoy my tea. It’s right here, I can hold it in my hand and I can feel that and I can see you. What are you having? Do you have coffee or tea?
Rick: Not at the moment, nothing. But I’ll survive. My former teacher’s teacher had this quote where he said, “There are so many lives one can live before getting a chance to be human.” He said, “Once you have achieved a human life, make good use of the time. It’s a precious opportunity. If you fail to reach God in this life, then you have sold a diamond for the price of spinach.” Which is not to make people feel bad, because I’ve said things like this when I was teaching and there were some older people or people with a disease that might kill them, and they began to literally cry because they felt, “Oh my God, you know, I’ve blown it. I won’t make it.” That kind of thing. But, and I think you probably would agree, I see this life as one rather brief chapter in a very long book. And you, wherever you are, and anybody listening to this probably doesn’t have much dust in their eyes, or they wouldn’t be listening to it, you should make hay while the sun shines. Do what you can.
Constance: That’s right. I agree.
Rick: Yeah.
Constance: Yeah. One of my earliest memories, I remember being a little girl, I was four or five years old. And I was out in the backyard playing with my brother and neighborhood kids. We just wore underwear and we would play in the sprinkler and the hose and we had little pool, the sides folded down, but you could fill it up and then it would stay up, and my mom even brought out a stepstool so that we could jump off the stepstool into the pool. We were just little kids, running around in the yard. I just loved being outside, and playing in the sprinkler, and all day we would just play outside. And of course, at a certain point, my mom comes out and she’s got curlers in her hair. And she’s like, “This is it, you gotta come in.” And I was like, “Mm-mm, I don’t wanna come in.” And my brother went scampering in right away. And she comes running after me, and she circles me and circles me in the yard, and the yard is so muddy. By then it was just all mud.
Rick: And your mother slipped.
Constance: She slipped, and she got up and she was mad, and she beelined across to me, and she grabbed me really hard by the arm. And she held me really tight and she said in a really intense voice, “Just who do you think you are?” And I stopped completely and looked at her and went, “That’s a really good question.”
Rick: That’s great.
Constance: And I fainted.
Rick: Wow.
Constance: Yeah, I fainted. The question just overwhelmed my child mind. And it was like I knew that question. And I just fainted. And she scooped me up and she was so mad at me because of all the mud, you know? The next thing I knew I woke up in the tub and was getting washed. And I was just walking around and going, “What does that mean? What does that mean? Who am I?”
Rick: Wow, that’s so interesting.
Constance: And I did have some memories as a little girl of a previous life. And I did say to my mother a few times, “I don’t think you’re my real mom.” And she did not like that.
Rick: Right. She didn’t understand what you were saying, right?
Constance: I understand. She did not like that. So, yeah, so that question is a question for each of us to ask, you know, like, what is this life about? It’s a good curiosity. It’s a wonderful curiosity. And just relaxing and opening up to the whole event of the moment can allow in so much knowing, so much presence. It’s really rich, these energies that are moving through us.
Rick: Yeah. You told another story where you and your brother were digging tunnels in the snow and you were burrowing under and sliding down, and then the snow collapsed and buried your brother and he could have easily have died. And you were digging frantically and freezing cold, you had your gloves off because you could dig better and you finally got him out and he ran home. But then you stayed until late at night sledding and looking at the stars, and then eventually lying on the sidewalk in front of your house. And I got the feeling that in all of that, you were having some kind of mystical experience. You want to elaborate on that a little bit?
Constance: Yeah, I just basically spent the whole day practicing in a natural way, you know, just really feeling the snow, the crunch, listening to the sound of the snow as I walked on it with the crunch, noticing even the difference in temperature throughout the day and the sound would change on the snow with my footfall. And so my attention was really present, really tuned in all day long. And when I just flipped over and laid back on my sled later and the snow started falling on my face, it was like the whole universe opened. And I just was like every snowflake was like also a falling star. And the whole universe wasn’t separate from me. And everything that happened, like a slush from the street landing near me as a car went by was also a passing galaxy, you know? And it was like beyond time and space. And just really amazing. And I just kept sort of sliding my way home and going, “Whoa!” [Laughter]
Rick: How old were you then?
Constance: I was at that point about nine.
Rick: Nine, huh?
Constance: Yeah.
Rick: Yeah. I’ve interviewed quite a few people who had some pretty amazing experiences when they were young like that, and then when they got into their teenage years, they eventually kind of shut down.
Constance: Right.
Rick: But I think it’s probably symptomatic of ripeness for spiritual awakening later on if you do have, and I think a lot of kids are pretty open, but not all kids. It’s not like we’re tabula rasas when we’re born and we’re just perfectly enlightened and you know, then we get screwed up by the world. I mean, we come in at different levels and some people come in at a fairly high level and are open to having such experiences when they’re young.
Constance: Yeah, yeah, it’s too bad that a lot of children who are very sensitive are sort of judged and shunned and pushed aside and it’s difficult because I was really sensitive and pretty quiet as a kid.
Rick: Yeah. You said something in your notes about how this book came about, “Time for Awakening”, is a miracle to you, or no, is incredible to you.
Constance: It’s incredible.
Rick: How is it incredible?
Constance: Well, I wrote the book in 2009-2010.
Rick: Right when I was starting BatGap.
Constance: Yeah. And of course, we are always struggling to get by. I think a lot of the books you see in bookstores are written by people who have a lot more resources, and so that’s something to consider. I looked for help and support with it a little bit on and off over the years, but didn’t have enough support for it. And I had shown it to my teachers, Jack and Trudy in 2010. And they said, Yes, keep going, work on it. This is nice. I think people will benefit. But I just couldn’t bring it forward until something happened in December 2022. I got COVID and I got really ill with it. I particularly was affected with my heart, and I needed to go to the ER. The doctors were very concerned about me. And they had plugged me into all this stuff to check on my heart. One of my sons, Forrest, was with me. And the doctor came in, and he said, we’re really concerned. And I told Forrest, I said, well, if I die, there’s this manuscript up in the attic, in the corner, On this dusty little corner shelf, and I would really like you to get it out and read it, okay? ‘Cause I’m leaving that for you. And I really wrote it for my sons because it’s so important to me as a mother, to be a mother and to leave something behind like breadcrumbs for my sons. And so that was really, really important. And he said, “Okay.” And so then I got better. I got better really quickly. It was just a minor problem that was resolved really quickly. And both of my sons read it. They looked at it and read it. And they brought it to me. And they said, if this is your dying wish, we’re going to get this. This is good. And we’re going to help you with this now. And so I was like, wow, really? And as it turned out, one of my sons is really talented with commas and grammar and all kinds of editing. And I had each one of them sitting next to me one on one side, one on the other, and we spent months and months looking at it and discussing it. And actually, this was more important to me than the book.
Rick: Oh, yeah. That’s nice that you had that time with them. Especially since you kind of wrote it for them.
Constance: Yes, and it was really healing because they were able to talk about things that I’ve shared in the book because it is a memoir, and they were able to really look back at things that were happening at that time and then stop. We would stop sometimes for a week and really discuss, you know, those memories and the things that they were going through in high school and the struggles that they were having. And then we were able to really apply some wisdom to looking at healing what they need to heal now. It was so wonderful.
Rick: There’s a story in the book where you’re in some restaurant and there are a bunch of gay guys at the next table and you say, “Hey, are you guys gay?” And they say, “Yeah!” And you say, “I think maybe one of my sons is gay,” and you end up sitting down with them and it’s like you become their mom or something, and they’ll hug you, and all that stuff. I don’t know why that just came to mind just now, but it’s just from talking to you now and having read the book, I just think, “Wow, I wish all mothers could be like this.” You know, even though you’re running off to retreats and things like that, which you needed to do for your spiritual pursuits, your love and open-mindedness and everything for your sons is really beautiful.
Constance: Thank you.
Rick: Yeah.
Constance: Yeah, I think being a parent is something that I took upon myself as a really sacred responsibility. And it is, it’s also very heavy karma, and we need to pay close attention to it. And I think that that’s also a result of my own childhood, though, too.
Rick: Yeah, but you know the whole of humanity could be turned around in one generation if all parents were enlightened, but of course that’s a very improbable hypothesis. It doesn’t work that way. But, whenever it can happen, whenever we can. Now, here’s the flip side to that. I’ve known people who were ardent meditators and spiritual seekers who neglected their children because they were so absorbed in their practice. They would leave their kids alone for hours and the kids would get into all kinds of mischief and stuff. And so you have to kind of juggle things more artfully than that and integrate spiritual practice into your circumstances without neglecting either.
Constance: Right, right. And that’s why I really shared in my book about how parenting was a part of my life, it was everything. My practice was more intense, of course, on the cushion. When you’re sitting, you can be really still and totally inward focused. But when I was with them, I was with them. That’s it. I was with them. And I was really listening and really paying close attention. And “what is it that we need to talk about? What is it that we can do? How are you really experiencing life?” This was really important. Being sons also, they would come home from school when they were kids and they would be told things like, “Boys, don’t cry!” You know, after getting their butts kicked on the playground or shoved and all kinds of violence happening. And I would just say that’s ridiculous. This is not about you being a boy or a girl. This is about you being a human and having a heart. And it’s okay to have these feelings. These feelings are really important.
Rick: What do you feel about parenting as a spiritual practice? Because I know of some guys who decide to become monks who think, “Oh, that would be just the worst thing I could do for my spiritual development.” And I was actually living an intentionally monastic life for about 15 years, although it was a very active monastic life, of course, I was traveling around doing projects. But the attitude was, “Yeah, that’s kind of a lesser dharma. If you do that, you’re really selling out.” And it took me a while to adjust to the idea that it wasn’t. And even though we never had children, on the other hand, I feel like it’s the challenges of married life, and I’m sure this is true of having children as well, were very evolutionary, not some kind of trap or distraction from the spiritual path, but I think I’m in much better shape now than I would have been had I been up in the Himalayas with my old buddies now.
Constance: Right, right. Well, our spiritual practice is whatever is here.
Rick: Yeah.
Constance: It’s whatever it’s here. And the Buddha, you know, went back to his son, and his son came into his community. And there’s stories about him and Rahula, his son. And he was a dad in the whole community, with Rahula, as he was teaching. And it’s important, whatever we have, whatever we have to deal with, we need to deal with it. And that’s the way I live. You know, I had a house that was a mess, okay, I need to fix it. I need to work on it. I have children that I love dearly, well then let’s find ways to be healthy and supportive and functional. I like to put the fun in functional.
Rick: Yeah, that’s good.
Constance: That’s a lot of what I like to do.
Rick: Yeah. So, you mentioned that you were an invisible child and homeless, but yet a little while ago you were talking about your mother and running around the swimming pool. In what respect were you invisible or homeless?
Constance: So with my mother, she had some mental illness and she was really not balanced at all and wasn’t able to really raise us as children. And my father divorced her when I was eight. And he really tried to seek custody to protect us from her violence and emotional abuse, but he wasn’t able to get custody. And then he died when I was 12. And for most of my life, my mother would often remind me that I was unwanted.
Rick: She hadn’t intended to get pregnant in that sense?
Constance: Right And that she did not want me, that she had no interest in taking care of me. And she did neglect me severely. So there was a lot of invisibility, but also just in the family system, being so dysfunctional, I sort of became the fly on the wall. I just would sort of retreat. And my main focus was, “let’s just stay out of trouble. I don’t want to get in trouble. I don’t want to be part of this trouble, and I don’t want to participate in it, and I want to just, you know…” And even one of my family members said to me recently, “Remember such and such and such and such happening?” And I said, “Yes.” And he said, “Well, where were you?” And I was right there.
Rick: So they didn’t even notice you?
Constance: They didn’t notice me. So anyway, when my father died, there wasn’t anyone to take care of me. And so I became a ward and I was homeless. I went out and I found support. There was a group of hippies that were living on the West Bank in Minneapolis. And it was the first year that they had started a home for kids who had basically been tossed out and didn’t have any support.
Rick: How old were you then?
Constance: I was 12.
Rick: Wow! That’s young. And I mean, that’s illegal. It’s something you don’t do, toss out a 12-year-old.
Constance: A lot of kids are. In fact, those gay men that I spoke with in the restaurant, they said that they were mostly tossed out. They were tossed out of their homes.
Rick: Interesting. Probably by some very religious parents who were blind to the hypocrisy of what they were doing. Yeah, so that’s young. I was out of the home a lot starting from about the age of 14 because of my father’s alcoholism and my mother’s hospitalization for mental illness and stuff like that. But 12 is really young. And so how did you get along? What happened?
Constance: Well, eventually they found a foster home. But sometimes I was homeless. I was out on the street and finding places to stay with other homeless people. And then when I was found homeless I went into foster care And I went into a series of foster homes on your own and then I was emacipated by the court when I was seventeen.
Rick: Meaning you could just be on your own and didn’t have to be anybody’s ward anymore.
Constance: Right. The judge just said that if you get picked up, they will bring you downtown because you’re under the age of 18. So just stay out of trouble. And I was like, okay. So I actually started college when I was 17, through the help of a man who was at the alternative high school that I went to.
Rick: Well, it’s good that you came through that relatively unscathed. I mean, these days, kids end up in sex trafficking situations and things like that, and all kinds of horrible things.
Constance: That’s true.
Rick: Even more so in other countries, sometimes, like India. In fact, people sell their children in India sometimes for that purpose.
Constance: That’s right.
Rick: I have a good friend named Robin who’s been on BatGap, Robin Shurasia, who has a whole organization that takes care of girls who were born in the red light district of Mumbai and she deals with so many difficult situations. It’s amazing. She happens to be in the US right now actually, fundraising.
Constance: What really helped me was I worked. I always worked like three jobs.
Rick: Kept you busy.
Constance: Kept me really busy and out of trouble. But I did get into recovery, you know?
Rick: But you weren’t drinking or anything, it was a recovery for people who’ve had a rough life kind of a program.
Constance: Yeah, I never really was attracted to drinking that much.
Rick: But you mentioned you were at Al-Anon or something, right?
Constance: Yes, right. And I got into using the tools of recovery, which I talk about in my book. And the tools are what really helped me. I started, every Friday night, to light a candle and just sit down with my feelings. And I looked at the tools, and the tools that I outlined in my book are really simple, seven tools, like attend meetings, work the steps, connect with others, use the phone list, engage in meditation or prayer, read informative and wise literature, write or journal about your questions or concerns, get a sponsor and meet with that person. Be generous and provide support to the whole group. And I just took up these tools like wow, okay, I love I love it. I was like, okay, these are the tools. I’m going to use them. Let’s do it. Okay. And I immediately asked for a sponsor. And my first sponsor mostly just said things like, why not? You know, because I just had so much oppression, internalized oppression against myself and I had so much like internalized shame and I didn’t know how to really let myself be free again after all of those years of homelessness. And I kind of consider the shame and stuff like this is sort of like this, like see this string?
Rick: Yeah.
Constance: It sort of squeezes you down.
Rick: Ah.
Constance: And it prevents you from opening up and learning.
Rick: Right.
Constance: And so I was kind of squeezed down and my sponsor could see that. And so I would ask her things like, thinking about taking the day off work and just going for a bike ride. And she’d go, “Why not?”
Rick: That’s great.
Constance: “Go for it.” You know? And when I was going out on dates, she was just like, “Take a quarter and a $20 bill, stick it in your bra, and if you have any problem, you can call me with that quarter. And then you have the $20 bill for a cab, if you need it”. And I just had this support. It was just available, and I would just go to meetings and feel this love. And it’s here, it’s like a revolution. It’s an underground revolution throughout the world. You know, in church basements, in places you wouldn’t know. It’s just amazing. I was just like, “This is amazing.” I discovered something so awesome, and I just dug into it. And it really changed my whole life. It changed my whole life. Even when I met my husband, I’d say, “Well, can you pick me up on Wednesday at this corner?” And he’d say, “Why on that corner?” And I’d say, “Well, it’s right after a meeting.” And then he started coming into the meetings too. And I had this foundation for raising my children. I had these principles that were just like coming alive in me. This wisdom is part of these principles and it just came alive in me.
Rick: Are those kinds of tools the same in AA as they are in Al-Anon?
Constance: I think those tools can be used even in any religion.
Rick: Right, but I mean, formally in AA, do they have it? They’re pretty much the same thing?
Constance: Pretty much the same thing.
Rick: Yeah, I think they should be used. I’m sorry, go ahead.
Constance: I’m not a spokesperson for the program. I’m just sharing my experience.
Rick: Of course. And I’ve heard wonderful things about it. I have a really good friend who might be listening to this now who had problems with drugs and stuff and was in one of these programs and benefited tremendously. I wish my father had gotten into one of those things. And it is a very spiritual program from what I understand. And I think that many of the problems in contemporary spirituality with ethics and people being treated respectfully and kindly and responsibly and all that kind of stuff would be addressed by an ethical structure like the tools you just described. So, I think in some spiritual circles, that sort of thing is sorely lacking.
Constance: I suppose it is.
Rick: I mean, think of some of the scandals in Buddhist circles, for instance, which you’re probably more familiar with than you might be in other circumstances, but if those spiritual teachers had been trying to abide by codes such as you just described, perhaps they wouldn’t have behaved that way.
Constance: That’s right. And perhaps if there were some old timers around to watch them and go “watch it!”
Rick: Yeah, if they had a sponsor or some feedback mechanism.
Constance: Yeah, “I see you slipping here”. You know, “let’s just check in”.
Rick: Yeah, that’s one of the problems. A lot of times spiritual teachers don’t have a peer who can be a feedback mechanism and can call them on their stuff. And so, they just kind of go off the rails, more and more.
Constance: Well, there’s an old saying in the program that we’re at different places on the path, but we’re the same distance from the ditch.
Rick: Interesting. That’s a good one. You probably heard of Padmasambhava because he was a Buddhist sage of some sort. There’s something he said once, he said, “Although my awareness is as vast as the sky, my attention to karma is as fine as a grain of barley flour.”
Constance: Yeah.
Rick: In other words, he’s saying you can be pretty cosmic, but you can still screw up if you’re not careful.
Constance: That’s right. I think about that every time I stand at my table saw.
Rick: Right. You cut off your thumb.
Constance: Right. Be very careful.
Rick: Yeah, good point. And I think some of the more time-honored traditions like Buddhism and certain aspects of Hinduism have had plenty of time to incorporate this kind of stuff. And they’re big on kindness. You have the whole Sharon Salzberg, meta-meditation kind of emphasis, whereas some of the more contemporary spiritual circles and Neo-Advaita and so on, they don’t pay any attention to this. If it’s brought up, they might even dismiss it as Maya or as superfluous. It’s just like a compromise with illusion if you’re even taking this stuff seriously.
Constance: Well, my training and my background in Buddhism is that the Buddha taught that there is self and not self. And that we need to be skillful in whatever realization that we’ve had. We also need to be skillful. We have this human form and we need to be moral and our conduct needs to be.
Rick: Right.
Constance: So, that’s been my training. And so, I’ve just really stayed with that because I feel really comfortable with that. And it’s given me a lot of freedom and liberation and happiness and I can go to sleep at night and feel really good.
Rick: That’s good. That’s a good point. I mean, ultimately, one is one’s own barometer? If there’s sensitivity, you should feel it if you’re out of dharma, there should be some kind of discomfort as a consequence. And I think often that people manage to stuff that, to repress it and thereby become less sensitive. And that can be a vicious circle where you become less and less and less sensitive. I mean, humanity has done horrific things and you have to be quite blind to yourself in order to engage in such experiences.
Constance: Right. Well, I was really fortunate to have an amazing teacher early on, in my 20s, Ann Wilson-Shafe.
Rick: Oh yes, talk about her.
Constance: She really didn’t consider herself in a hierarchical way. She was really honest about her process and what was going on with her. And she really admitted so much and that really was a role model for me, that to be honest about what is really going on, to be sensitive and to that honesty is what we really need over and over again to keep coming back into the moment and feeling into those moments of fear, those moments of tension, and what is really true. I practiced with this one way in which she defined addiction for quite a while. And for about 24 years, I practiced in this way where I created an acronym for her definition, one of her primary definitions of addiction, which was what I call D.I.E.D. And the first D was denial. So I was continually checking throughout the day as I was parenting, working on the house, doing my work, is there anything I’m in denial about? Do I need to eat? Do I need to drink water? Do I need to stop? Do I need to reprioritize? What is the most important thing right now. Is there anything I’m in denial about? Is there anything I don’t want that I’m pushing away? That’s denial. Is there anything I’m wanting that I just can’t get? It’s not going to happen. That’s denial. And so I was really practicing with denial over and over again. And then the next thing I looked into, which is connected to denial, is the illusion of control. Was I not aware of all the many streams that are coming together at any point in time because it’s huge. What can I do and what can I not do? And that was part of the recovery program with the serenity prayer.
Rick: That famous quote.
Constance: Yes. Serenity to accept the things I cannot change. Courage to change the things I can. And the wisdom to know the difference.
Rick: Right.
Constance: So this is the prayer of working with the illusion of control and really working with anything unskillful. And I had to stop often, pause, feel. This was the practice. And then for me, I also really looked at external referencing, which is the E, because the way I came in, the way I’m wired up is that I often care about everybody else. What’s going on with everybody else? And I have to be aware that I’m old, I’m tipped over, and leaned in too much on everybody else, and I have to come back. What is going on here? And find that balance between me and the kids, me and the house, me and my work, and what is going on, and find out why have I tipped over. So external referencing, worrying about what other people think, and spending more effort on the perceptions of others is also external referencing. And not just being at home in my own skin. And then the next one was dualistic thinking. And dualistic thinking is the common thinking, either or, black and white thinking, Like it’s just got to be this way or this way or your way or my way. Instead of really looking in the situation and feeling into the whole event of the moment and seeing a variety of options and a variety of ways of seeing it and even a way of seeing it from other people’s perspective as well as mine. And what would be the best, what would be the best outcome for both of us? And I might have to give something up and they might have to give something up and we can come to some negotiated solution.
Rick: You should run for Congress.
Constance: Oh boy, that’d be hard. But this is what I practiced with for 24 years. And so this was the groundwork for what happened in 2007. Because after 24 years of practicing with D.I.E.D, I started really looking at my practice and at all of my practice in the recovery and going, “There’s something that’s like right here.”
Rick: What do you mean by that? You’re pushing your hand up to your nose for the audio listeners.
Constance: There’s something right here and it’s so close, but it feels separate. Like there was still this illusion of separation, this feeling of separation and I kept having these mystical experiences because part of my recovery program was that I would leave for times and I would go and sit in hermitages and I would practice contemplative prayer. And I would again have these huge openings and these big mystical experiences and I would cycle through that and then come back home and go like, now what? It’s not satisfying, you know? It’s over. It’s just another experience. That’s not it. I didn’t even know I was a seeker. I just felt like something isn’t right.
Rick: Well, when you had these mystical experiences, did you put them in a spiritual context? You say you don’t know you were a seeker, but did you interpret them in terms of having spiritual significance?
Constance: Yeah, it was almost like when I was a kid on the sled, out in the snow, like, wow, very present with it, a lot of energy flowing in and through the body and appreciating it, but then it would just fade. It was gone, and I knew it was gone, and I needed to get back to work. I needed to get back to the business of living and let it go, and just move on with, what’s the next thing to do? You know? Now I have to do the dishes. This is just the dishes now.
Rick: Yeah.
Constance: But I knew that there was something that was calling me further, further. And that was when, in the 2000s, I had these experiences. I would sit, I sat for an LSAT, and I’d sit in the room and be completely quiet. And I would just be like, I love this silence. This is so– I love the silence of this room. And I’d hear this sound coming through, and this voice would go, this isn’t it. And I was like, what does that mean? I don’t know, but this isn’t it. And so I kept getting this pull to go further, further. What is it? Well, then what is it? What is it? And that’s why I start the book in 2007, when I just went, I need to check into a meditation center and I need to look around further for support because I just need to broaden my horizons. And eventually that led to my meeting Adya, Adyashanti, and talking with him. And I just really needed to know like straight, is there something that is further here? And what I heard him say in so many words was yes, yes, there’s something here. And I said to him, I said, “Well, one of the phrases that kept coming to me in this process was “half measures avail us nothing.'”
Rick: What’s that again?
Constance: “Half measures avail us nothing.”
Rick: Avail us nothing, yes.
Constance: And that’s a statement from the Big Book. And I read that over and over and over again. Half measures avail us nothing. And so I realized I needed to do this full-on, I couldn’t do it halfway. And I told Adya, “I’m willing, I’m really, really willing. I’m willing to go to any lengths”. And he said, “Well, then you can’t be stopped.” And I realized that I was ready. I was ready to go further, much further.
Rick: But you still managed to balance your family responsibilities and stuff. It’s not like you just said, “Bye, kids. Maybe I’ll see you in 20 years.”
Constance: No, no. No, it was just, again, a matter of really learning and having one day at a time for years and years and years. Being one day at a time, what’s right here, what are the priorities, what do I need to discern today, how are you, how is your health, what kind of food do we need in the house, what kinds of things do we need to do.
Rick: See, I think this is a really good example for people because some people might feel frustrated that they have to work in a job or deal with this or that responsibility. And “I just want to be in a cave on a mountaintop” or whatever, they just want to devote themselves to spirituality.
Constance: But you can simplify.
Rick: You can.
Constance: A lot of people’s lives are pretty chaotic and they can simplify. Like I remember ending a lot of magazine subscriptions and I remember not going to some of my external volunteer activities as much and cutting back on many different things and really just like going okay, every activity needs to be in devotion of this.
Rick: Yeah.
Constance: Even if it’s folding the laundry, even if it’s nailing boards together, every activity needs to be in devotion. And so, I could simplify things more and more so that I would have these periods where I could do focused sitting meditation morning, afternoon, and evening. But there were things that had to go in my life, that had to become more simplified.
Rick: Sure. And I think in our modern society, there are a lot of people, perhaps a majority, who are unaware that the deepest, most genuine abiding fulfillment is to be found within. And so, therefore, they’re seeking it externally and quite desperately. I mean, around Christmas time every year, they always have on the news, these mob scenes in the malls, where people are battling each other over the latest gadget and, breaking the doors down and stampeding and doing all this crazy stuff. And you just think, “Wow, these people are just desperate for something that is not gonna make them happy.” But it’s kind of still a big phenomenon in our society, something our society needs to evolve out of, I’d say, given the state of the world and the environment and the economy and all that stuff.
Constance: Yeah, that’s true. Yeah, there’s a lot of benefit in just taking time with your family, just really getting to know them, sitting down, just keeping it really simple.
Rick: I listened to your book while walking in the woods about two hours every morning, which is what I do. But I want to ask you about that. I mean, you talk about being here now, focusing on what you’re doing and so on and so forth. Do you consider it to be a violation of that, to be listening to a podcast or something while you’re walking in the woods, like I’m dividing my mind? Would you do a thing like that? Or would you either just listen to the podcast or walk in the woods?
Constance: Well, notice how that’s kind of dualistic, you know?
Rick: Yeah.
Constance: And that there’s actually many different levels of attention. Like, there’s different levels of attention when I’m driving a car. I don’t want the same level of attention that I’m giving when I’m meditating deeply and as focused sit as when I’m driving a car.
Rick: Very true, you’d crash it.
Constance: Right, yeah. So, there’s different levels of attention. And so, the chosen level of attention was to walk in the woods and listen to the podcast. My wish is that it’s pleasant, but that even if it’s unpleasant, you’re paying attention to that.
Rick: Yeah, that’s a good answer. Actually, I heard from somebody I’ve interviewed, I think it was Rick Hansen, who’s a neuroscientist, that that they found through studies that it’s really good for your brain to be doing something intellectually stimulating while getting aerobic exercise.
Constance: Really?
Rick: As you get older especially. Maybe it’s because it brings more blood flow to the brain or something, I don’t know.
Constance: We all have different brains and we all have different ways of being and like one of the things for me was I’m also really very visual. It’s actually taken me quite a while to become more verbal and more articulate about talking about this, and writing the book did help me with that. But for instance, after I was at Adya’s retreat, I drew a picture and I just didn’t even know how to talk about what had happened. I had this huge opening and drew this picture.
Rick: Cool.
Constance: You know, of just like all this energy just like coming out of me and I just didn’t even know how to say anything about this to anybody because it just was huge. It was a really big opening because I was practicing really intensively at that retreat. You know, it wasn’t necessarily attributed to Adya, it was attributed to the level of devotion and practice that I was giving moment by moment at the retreat. And so, when we do the practice, there are a lot of openings and some people may not have words for it. They may not have really an intellectual understanding of it. It could be very overwhelming. And so, here’s another picture from a retreat.
Rick: Hold it up more, yeah, there you go.
Constance: Like that? It just felt like there was –
Rick: Lightning coming out of dark clouds.
Constance: Right, and it was a really difficult state, you know? I had beads of sweat pouring down and I was just staying with it and breathing through this really intense feeling. And so, I didn’t know how to even put this into words when I was on retreat and going on to some of these retreats. I would show the picture to a teacher and they’d go, “Well, you’re supposed to describe your experience.” And I didn’t know what to say. There was so much happening. Sometimes I think a picture is like a thousand words.
Rick: Sure, especially if you’re a visual person. I mean, that’s your medium. One thing I was impressed with, and whenever I hear stories like this I’m grateful that that wasn’t the nature of my path, is that how you could sit there and experience a lot of physical pain, trying to sit still for hours on end and just kind of soldier on. I mean, the way I was taught, we were supposed to be comfortable, first of all, because if you’re in a lot of pain, it distracts you from what you’re doing there. And actually, I heard a story, I think it was from Jeff Carrera, whom I interviewed, he used to be with Andrew Cohen, and they would do these long, long things where they’d be meditating from four in the morning until ten at night with very few breaks, and they’d be slapping each other to try to stay awake. And I actually heard a story of someone having a stroke because they had cut off the circulation in their legs so badly. In fact, you told a story of a lady breaking her ankle because her foot went to sleep.
Constance: She tore a tendon.
Rick: Tore a tendon, okay. And so, it’s one thing to be gung-ho on the spiritual path. It’s another thing to actually damage the vehicle because you push it too hard.
Constance: Right, and I did actually do that. I got a ganglion cyst on my wrist. I’m holding a mudra and too tight of a mudra. This is a mudra?
Rick: Yeah, right.
Constance: And the circulation coming down my arm got stuck in my wrist from the way I was leaning and I had to have that removed. So I felt like that was a casualty of really learning that I needed to be more flexible and find my own rhythm, and pay attention more to my own rhythm and to get up and move if I needed, to adjust my posture if needed. And that it’s a real fine balance between not too tight and not too loose. Now, it’s like a real fine balance. And that taught me, I had to really, really tune into that more and more. And so, yeah, these casualties can happen as we learn. I feel like I was like one of those ones that you learn from a lot of mistakes.
Rick: Yeah, I went through a phase where I was fasting a lot and got down to under 120 pounds or something like that just because of the sort of fanatical mindset I was in.
Constance: Oh my goodness, that makes me want to make you a sandwich right now.
Rick: Oh yeah, send it down. Well, that was in the 70s. I’m a lot heavier than that now. But just this, as Jesus said, the body is the temple of the soul.
Constance: It is.
Rick: Now all I do is eat, Irene says. In fact, I just polished off a big piece of cheesecake that my sister brought me. Anyway, we won’t dwell on this point too long, but just in passing, like you said, the Buddha talked about the middle way, in terms of balance, and in the Bhagavad Gita, it says this yoga is not for him who eats too much or too little, who sleeps too much or too little. So, moderation is advocated by both of those traditions.
Constance: Yep.
Rick: Yeah. Doesn’t mention cheesecake in the Gita. I don’t know, what does Buddha say about that?
Constance: Cheesecake. Go ahead, enjoy.
Rick: He’s cool with it.
Constance: The Buddha talks a lot about appreciation of life.
Rick: Yeah.
Constance: Yeah, I mean, mudita is about appreciation and we’re to appreciate life, enjoy life. Meditation doesn’t need to be torture. Meditation is actually designed to be pleasant so that we can liberate and feel free and we can feel more at ease in the world and a part of the world and not separate and that we are connected and we have this amazing divine energy flowing through us. And that we have these capacities that are now freed up, that we can actually help the world in a way, much more. So, the Buddha definitely talked about that. And what really also freed me up after I met Adya was that I had discovered something called the Progress of Insight. And when I learned about that, I realized that the cycles that I’d been going through were actually pretty normal. And that made me go, “Oh, thank you. You know, I’m okay.” I have been cycling through these contracted states and then these more expanded states. And I think I had some idea that it should just be always good or expansive or better or something. And I realized it was normal to go through those states. And that what I needed to do was to just become more skillful in self-care and gentleness and kindness and patience and finding that middle way in those difficult states. And after a big opening, there’s generally going to be a more difficult state.
Rick: Yeah, because a big opening is conducive to the nervous system being able to free itself from impurities or samskaras or deep impressions. And so then when those things get released, you’re going to experience some roughness probably. It’s like when you’re vacuuming the house, there’s a lot of noise and commotion, but you’re getting the dust up.
Constance: That’s right. And the mind seems like it can only handle so much. It just kind of goes like this and it wants to rest. Sometimes you want to just be a couch potato for a while. There would be times when I’d have a big opening and then I’d go into my wood shop and I’d put my hand down on the iron top of my table saw and I’d feel my hands shaking. And I would just go, not a good day to cut wood. No, I think today’s a good day for organizing the shop and for straightening out all of my wood pieces and for making a plan and for sweeping and vacuuming and getting out my shop back.
Rick: Yeah.
Constance: And it’s not a good day for cutting wood. So that was how I was always discerning, you know. When you said balancing, I always feel like some people think that you’re balancing means you have some kind of overview plan or something. I was just really with each day, like what does each day need? What is right now? What is needed right now and for the rest of the day, just a little bit further into the future? What do we need for supper? what do we need next? And that is the way to balance it, that I know.
Rick: Well, I think what you said about when you have a big opening, you might need to rest is important, because I think sometimes what you might really need is to sleep a lot, or to have a massage, or do something really soothing, go swimming, something that’s rejuvenative and restful. And if you keep pushing when your body actually needs rest, then it’s counterproductive.
Constance: Exactly. Great time to take a bath. The oils in the bath and yeah.
Rick: And also what you said about meditation should be enjoyable, I heartily agree with that. And if it isn’t, if it’s torture to sit and meditate, hardly anybody would stay with it. And they probably shouldn’t because if it’s torture, there’s probably something you’re doing something wrong. Maybe you should probably give it up or find something different
Constance: Probably too tight. You’ve gotten too tight. Yeah, focus is too narrow, you need to open it up, relax, sit back in and down. And breathe in a way that’s nourishing. I mean you can breathe in ways that are nourishing and opening. So much of what people are doing is they’re pinching off the breath in different parts of the body. And you can open those areas, you can offer breath energy to those areas to open them up, and relax and let the whole body be filled with breath energy. That’s really opening and lovely. And it can happen this way. It’s really the way forward, I think, is to just relax and tune in.
Rick: You guide people in this stuff, right? You have one-on-ones with people and so on.
Constance: Yeah.
Rick: After this interview, you might want to set up a Zoom thing if you haven’t done it already, where you can meet with whole groups on a regular basis. Because there might be a lot of inquiries.
Constance: I have a wise circle that I’m developing with practitioners to come together and really focus on this middle way of practice where it can be gentle and refreshing and fulfilling. And deepening, it gets deeper and deeper, but you do have to be willing to face into the difficult states. Because we do have to become friends with fear, more and more. We have to become friends with fear, and that takes more humility and more openness to the broad open path.
Rick: In my own case, I’m not going to talk about myself too much, but I’ve been through a difficult childhood and I ended up dropping out of high school and getting into drugs and getting arrested a couple times, and when I finally learned to meditate, it was like, “Oh my God, this is so refreshing,” and I stuck with it, and I’ve actually never missed one since 1968. I just felt like, “This is my lifeline, I’m going to stick with this.” And I was able to, even though I was a very flaky guy who wasn’t able to be consistent about anything, but I was able to stick with it because it was so enjoyable, and I began to notice so much more motivation. I got back into school and got a job and this and that. And I’ve gone through all kinds of crazy phases over the years, as one does as you go through all the changes of life. I can look back at certain periods where I was a total nutcase. But if you just kind of hang in there and stay on the path, you work through that stuff. And you know, it gets better and better. I’m happier now at the age of 74 than I’ve ever been.
Constance: Yay! Hey, wonderful! We can celebrate this human life. It’s so precious.
Rick: Definitely.
Constance: I feel like we’re always, you know, making our own banana cream pie.
Rick: What do you mean by that?
Constance: Well, as we meditate, we also have to be aware that we’re each a little bit different and we’re in different states of being. And so, like, I would make a banana cream pie that’s gluten-free. So whenever I would practice, I would have to tune into “what is the state that’s here, and how can I breathe in a way that’s supportive of this state?” Or maybe I need to do walking meditation, maybe walking through the woods, listening to a podcast, or doing something else, maybe taking a bath. And my banana cream pie is gluten free, and sometimes crustless, and sometimes it’s as simple as a slice of banana with some ready whip. And that’s it. I’m done. I just got one little bite and it’s perfect. And so we’re always kind of making our own pie, each day. What is our pie? What fits for you? What fits for what is your particular state? And what is the context of your life? There might be some other priorities that need to be assessed, and then I think it’s really important to find a safe home and to ground yourself at home and have a place where you feel really at home and you feel safe.
Rick: A literal home, a physical home.
Constance: Yeah.
Rick: Sure.
Constance: Yeah. And wherever that is, just really ground yourself there and feel that this is your safe place, and from that, then you can build your practice more and more.
Rick: Yeah.
Constance: It was really important to me to build my own home and to have –
Rick: Literally, you did.
Constance: Yes.
Rick: Tell people about that a little bit.
Constance: Well, let’s see. Here’s my tape measure.
Rick: Yeah, you’re a carpenter, actually.
Constance: Yeah.
Rick: You and Jesus, yeah.
Constance: Right. So, I just would pick this up every day and this was my grounding. My tape measure. This is a fairly new one, not as beat up as my old one. And our house is a really old house, and we ended up tearing off the back of it and really having to rebuild the whole thing. And from the ground up, I had to learn all kinds of stuff about first getting the structure, getting the foundation, putting up the studs, doing everything, you know, the drywall on and the framing, everything had to be just right. And I was always checking if I have my level here. What I’m always checking to see is it level or plumb. And I remember I worked with one guy who really helped me. He was really great. And he and I put up a steel column in the basement because what had happened was the back of the house collapsed at one point, and I had to run to Home Depot at the store and run in and get a jack. I had to get that jack and get home, put that jack up. And then we had to put in a steel support in the middle of the house to hold up the main beam coming across. And then we had to get a portable welder out here to work with that. And it was like 30 below zero. It was a really cold winter. And just do the next thing. But I remember I checked that light. It wasn’t plumb when he helped me with this. And I said, “It’s not plumb.” He said, “Oh, it’s fine. It’ll be fine.”
Rick: Plumb means perpendicular or what?
Constance: Perfectly straight.
Rick: Perfectly straight, okay.
Constance: Perfectly straight. But a lot of people I worked with would say, “It’ll be fine.”
Rick: Right, they’re sloppy.
Constance: It’s not fine.
Rick: Right.
Constance: So I would say, “No.” And then he’d say, “It’ll be fine.” And I’d say, “Well, I’m going to think about you every time I walk by that.” And the next thing I know, he came back and fixed it. So we got along great, you know? I did have some help with it, but a lot of the work I did myself.
Rick: Yeah, and this went on for years and years.
Constance: Years and years.
Rick: While you’re raising sons and creating websites and going to spiritual retreats. It’s like you must have figured out the bi-location siddhi or something.
Constance: Yeah, but having a home is really, really important.
Rick: Sure. And all those poor people in Gaza right now who are crowded into Rafa. Living in tents and waiting for the next invasion and so on.
Constance: Insane, it’s insane.
Rick: And the trauma of little children at that age, going through that kind of thing.
Constance: I know. It breaks my heart.
Rick: Which is not to say it wasn’t traumatic for the Israelis when Hamas invaded. I’m not saying that. But anyone anywhere, the Ukraine for instance. It’s just so sad when people are subjected to all this stuff.
Constance: I know. It’s like, there’s this complete denial about the importance of this human life.
Rick: Yeah. And it just creates trauma that I think lasts a lifetime for many people.
Constance: I’m really grateful for the people here speaking out for them. I’m really, really grateful. It’s so important. You know, we do need to speak out. We need to do what we can with this human life.
Rick: Yeah. So, let’s keep moving along because you say you awakened in 2008, and we’re proceeding a little bit chronologically here, and we haven’t gotten to that yet, but I want to be sure to get to it. And also, your book, you finished it 15 years ago or something, so I want to find out what’s been going on since then. So let’s budget our time and make sure we cover all that.
Constance: Okay.
Rick: So, what next? What’s the next important thing we should talk about here?
Constance: Let’s see, I don’t know, where are we?
Rick: Well, we’ve been moving along, we were talking about building the house and so on. You’ve done a bunch of camping trips and spiritual retreats and you went to Malaysia for three months and all kinds of stuff.
Constance: Right, and then I had discovered The Progress of Insight and I went, “Okay, alright.”
Rick: Tell us what that is.
Constance: And I saw that I had been cycling just like that. I had been going through these same states over and over again, and I’d been getting into this wonderful, beautiful state of equanimity, which was really high-functioning for me. And so, often when I would get into this state of equanimity, I would be like, “Well, come on, kids, let’s go for a bike ride. Let’s build another wall, you know? Let’s do all this cool stuff.” And then, after reading that, I realized that was the point I needed to stay still. I needed to be really still.
Rick: Because?
Constance: Because that was where the whole mind has such an open and vast perspective that this was almost like a moment of potential for something.
Rick: So stay still means don’t take a bike ride, don’t build a wall, in other words, don’t sort of try to busy yourself.
Constance: Right.
Rick: Okay.
Constance: Just sit still. And so then I realized I needed to have continuous practice. I needed really focused practice on retreat. And so that’s when I decided to go to Malaysia and check into an intensive meditation center. Pretty intensive.
Rick: It sounded intensive. I read all about it in the book. All kinds of stuff going on there and physical difficulties with mosquitoes and mud and leaky things and spicy things.
Constance: Bats and lizards and snakes.
Rick: Creepy things.
Constance: Monkeys over there.
Rick: Yeah. Right. But it sounded like it went well for you for the most part. You had a big opening there. The teacher there liked you and you almost became kind of peers at a certain point it seemed. He sat down on the floor with you rather than sitting up on his chair, and there was a camaraderie.
Constance: Yeah, there was. I think it takes a great deal of maturity to really see your teacher as a human being, to see your teacher and appreciate your teacher as an awakened human being here and now, and that there is no hierarchy ultimately.
Rick: Right.
Constance: That we are just here.
Rick: So in other words, if someone were less spiritually mature, they might idolize their teacher or consider themselves to be just a kind of a fallen creature by comparison with that lofty soul that’s sitting in front of them and that kind of thing.
Constance: Right, I think that’s really disempowering.
Rick: It is. And it can be problematic too because you can let the teacher get away with all kinds of shenanigans if you do that.
Constance: It’s really disempowering and it’s insulting to the practice.
Rick: And yet one can be respectful to one’s teacher.
Constance: Of course.
Rick: You know, it’s not like, “Hey man, let’s go shoot some pool.” There’s an appreciation and even a reverence and a devotion.
Constance: Yes, that’s why it’s beyond dualistic thinking. There’s all of these parts together. All of this multi-way of viewing is together. And there’s a deep, deep respect for my teacher. He lives in my heart. He lives in my heart always.
Rick: Yeah. So, let’s get subjective for a while because we’ve been talking about all these objective things like house building and traveling and kids and whatnot. I know it’s difficult because these subjective states are sometimes beyond words, but try to chart out for us the stages of your subjective growth, your inner experience, how you view the world, how you view yourself as your consciousness has shifted, if you want to use those words.
Constance: Well, everything is just happening.
Rick: Well, everyone could say that, right?
Constance: Everything’s happening. But it’s just happening. So, there isn’t any separation. It’s almost indescribable. And there’s a deep intimacy with what is. Like, even right now, I just feel my seat. I feel appreciation. I feel the breath in the body. A connection with everything that is. And it’s already here. It’s a gift. It’s already arising and passing.
Rick: So when you say there isn’t any separation, how would you compare that experience with what you might have experienced 30 or 40 years ago when you looked at a tree or person or something? What’s the difference if you could sort of put us inside your head?
Constance: I don’t know. See, it was like, that’s over there, but it’s not only over there. It’s also here. So there’s no over there. It’s also here. And it’s so rich and deep and it’s also flowing. There’s a flowing, a vital aliveness within us, you know, and there’s also a deep, deep connection with our divinity. And also, one of my concerns is that people think that if you’re awakened that you’re better than other people or something. You’re actually just more human and just more present to being here now and more caring, more compassionate. For me anyway, that’s my experience. It’s hard to describe. It’s really indescribable. You know, I use a lot of different words in my book for, this sense of being is what I felt after stream entry. This just like being down and connected and through and being with everything that is. And there’s been a lot of adjusting to this over the years and deepening more and more.
Rick: So, stream entry happened in Malaysia?
Constance: Yeah.
Rick: And describe what is meant by stream entry in your experience.
Constance: Right, well, in Theravada Buddhism, they consider that to be the first stage of abiding awakening.
Rick: Okay.
Constance: So, that means that it’s irreversible.
Rick: What is the stream that you’re entering?
Constance: The stream is life, all of life, and through, and you’re in it.
Rick: Like the flow of divine consciousness or intelligence or something like that?
Constance: Yeah.
Rick: Okay. And so, rather than not being aware that there is such a thing, or resisting it, or something like that, you have just merged with it to the extent that you can flow with it?
Constance: Well, there were still times where old habitual patterns would come up, where I’d be pushing away, and it would really hurt more. It was more painful to push against it at that point. Really painful. So I think it’s a process of cooperation. We need to cooperate with this human life and it’s way more powerful than even the mind can handle. It’s beyond the mind.
Rick: Right.
Constance: It’s huge. It’s just awesome.
Rick: Because what you’re referring to is a much vaster consciousness or a much vaster intelligence. It’s not just contained within our skull. And so, if we’re going to merge with that, we have to cooperate with it. Like, using the word stream, the stream is flowing along. If you’re gonna get in the stream, you want to flow with the stream. If you’re kind of hanging onto a rock or something like that, then there’s all this turbulence.
Constance: Right, and the Buddha talked about using the Noble Eightfold Path for sure, all the way to the stream and once you’re in the stream, continue.
Rick: Would it be worth running through what those eight things are?
Constance: The Noble Eightfold Path is first right view…
Rick: Meaning what?
Constance: Having a view of life, which I developed early in life, which is that we are participants.
Rick: Okay.
Constance: That we are all participants in this human life, that we are part of it, and having an openness to life. And probably I would include less dualistic thinking. Really looking at some of the things that I was doing, that was actually Right View, working with D.I.E.D, and I think that was a development of Right View quite a bit. I don’t know if I can name all of them right now.
Rick: Oh, that’s okay. Maybe just any ones that come to mind as being most significant.
Constance: Really having an intention for clarity, for presence, for honesty, connection, gentleness for me was the way.
Rick: You do seem very gentle. I really appreciate that. I wasn’t one of your sons and didn’t get to experience what it was like if I broke a window, but you do seem very gentle.
Constance: Yeah. And being gentle is so important. It’s really important, I think. But we also have to be firm sometimes, too. “Okay, that’s enough of that”.
Rick: You can be both.
Constance: That’s right.
Rick: Gentle I sometimes would equate with the word subtle, as opposed to crude, gross, heavy. And so, one can be very subtle and at the same time be firm. It doesn’t mean you become a pushover.
Constance: That’s right. I just didn’t feel like I was doing it anymore, you know? I’m not doing it, it’s everything is just happening and whatever’s left of the I is just trying to participate and continue to cooperate. And any resistance to what is just needs to be faced into immediately.
Rick: Row, row, row your boat gently down the stream.
Constance: Yeah.
Rick: The stream’s doing it, really. You’re just using the paddle just a little bit so you don’t crash into something.
Constance: Yeah, exactly. I know when I went off to Malaysia, I was so glad because they had changed from analog to digital on our TVs. And I told my sons, “Oh, you guys won’t be able to watch your TV shows when I go. Oh well”. Because then I thought that would help them focus more on their homework and doing first things first and taking good care of themselves and stuff like that. And I thought, well, we don’t have this thing to convert the analog to digital. And I had this experience in Malaysia where I had a sort of psychic experience, where I popped in on them and I saw that they were helping each other at the computer, because I had set them up with two computers side by side to help each other. And I thought, oh, that’s good. They’re helping each other. And then when I got home, I realized that they had helped each other find their shows on the internet.
Rick: Ah, so they could watch them.
Constance: Right. So they were very, very inventive. And they figured out another way to get what they needed anyway. That’s great. Even though I was gone.
Rick: Yeah.
Constance: So that’s when I realized, when I came back, I realized I can’t go against this dream, right? They’re connecting with film, they’re connecting with all kinds of things in the world. And I have these two sons, ages 14 and 17, 18, right in there. And I went, okay, we’re gonna have to get a digital TV. And they were like, what? I said, Yeah, we’re gonna have to do that. And they’re like, I can’t believe it. And I said, Yeah. And so then what I did is, I’ve spent years watching what they watch, and sharing it with them. And after we watch a show, we really talk about it. We really, really talk about it. And I watch them like watch all of these shows that have all this mag male toxicity in them, you know, and these hero things that they were watching. And so then I would just ask questions afterwards. Like, how did that feel? And what do you guys think about that? And did you notice that that African American man was eliminated in the first 20 minutes? Why is that always happening? You know, let’s look into this. And so, over the years, we’ve had a lot of conversations about, like when we watch a film, we talk about the film for at least an hour.
Rick: Wow, that’s great.
Constance: And we look at it from the psychological point of view, the theological point of view, the sociological point of view, the internalized oppressive point of view, if there’s any of that in the system. We talk about it from the political point of view, and also from the materialistic point of view. And so years went by, and I asked my son one day, “One of your favorite old movies is coming up and there’s a sequel. Do you want to see it?” And he went, “Mom, it’s just war propaganda.”
Rick: Haha, interesting.
Constance: And I was like, “Wow!” You know, all these conversations have really shaped a lot of things in my family and how we discuss things and how we look at things. And so that’s also, I think, an outcome of the awakening.
Rick: That’s very interesting. Wow.
Constance: It’s leaning in and being curious about the people we love and what are they thinking and trying to have conversations that matter.
Rick: Yeah.
Constance: And trying to talk about things where what they view is also out on the table. Because I would see them disagreeing and they’d be fighting with each other and I’d go, “Oh, that’s just the sociological point of view, and that’s the psychological point of view. And they go, “Oh, thanks.” You know, thanks. And we could have these conversations, more and more. And that’s what’s been so rich is this aliveness that I brought home from the awakening that I don’t know if I would’ve really gotten it as much beforehand.
Rick: Yeah.
Constance: Because I just wasn’t afraid to approach these conversations and difficulties. And I I was able to discern all of these different points of view. There’s a lot of different points of view. Like we’ve said, we’ve talked about really tragic and horrific points of view that are out there. And they’re so limited, you know, but we can open our consciousness and we can look at our capacities in different ways. And we can discuss things in ways that really help people kind of go, “Oh, yeah, hmm, I’m kind of holding on to this point of view. What if I loosened it up and I saw that I don’t have to be right? I don’t have to be right. I can be a student of life and I can learn. I can learn here about this life”.
Rick: What are some of the most interesting and informative movies that you and your family have watched together and discussed?
Constance: Oh, lots. Oh, man. I can think of like four, but one that we like, of course, is The Matrix. We like The Matrix a lot. And Inception.
Rick: Oh yeah, with Leonardo DiCaprio was it?
Constance: Yeah. And that one really deals with deep levels of consciousness.
Rick: Right.
Constance: Deep inside the mind, and what is hiding in there that really wants to be seen, really wants to be seen. And that also happened to me after stream entry. I was able to really see these deep parts of myself that I had still been holding, but that I was able to let go. And these little adhesions would come up more and more, and I could see them and free them up with so much compassion and so much openness. It was so much better. I was able to do that. One of my favorite films I’d like to recommend is a film called “The Quiet Girl.”
Rick: “The Quiet Girl.”
Constance: Highly recommend it. And it’s a movie that’s about how a girl needs a home and she stays with some relatives and they’re kind to her. They treat her with kindness, and the tender kindness shown throughout the film, little by little she’s transformed. And actually watching the film for the first time I was a little worried about her, but I’ll give you a spoiler alert, you don’t have to worry. You don’t have to worry about her, because like us, she gets kindness. We get it.
Rick: That’s nice.
Constance: When you’re treated with sincerity and kindness, you get it, and that’s what we need to do. So another movie recently I liked and that we were just talking about was “Perfect Days”. Yeah, we really do connect a lot with film One of my sons is a great editor. He loves film. And yeah, they’re both wonderful. If anybody came over to the house and watched a movie with us, they would be amazed at what happens after the movie with these conversations. Because we have to just go, okay, you go. Now you, now you. We have so much rich view of what’s happening and understanding. And when you watch a movie, you participate in it. You feel what is happening to you. How are you affected by what is going on? And this is also a metaphor for life, you know? How are we affected when we walk down the street? When you see a dog barking, when you see things around you, how are you affected by that? I mean, this is what we need to pay attention to. So I really brought that home. I think this was more of a key change that I think really impacted my life and the life of my family. Because we could just talk about the description of consciousness and all these feelings and all this stuff like that, but it really impacted my life and my family’s life. And also a lot of patience came up too. I mean, it took 11 years to get the kitchen, okay, now it takes what it takes, you know, little by little, cabinet by cabinet, we built it and we got it done. And it’s really nice.
Rick: That’s great. Well, if I ever come to Minneapolis, I’ll come over for a movie, a sandwich and some cheesecake.
Constance: That’d be great. Or banana cream pie.
Rick: A banana cream pie, yeah, and a big discussion. So stream entry, as I understand it, stream entry is kind of an initial stage, considering how many more stages there are. I’ve heard about all these jhanas, I couldn’t tell you what they are. Daniel Ingram says he’s an arhat and he’s not shy to say it, but I’m not so much conversant with the Buddhist terminology. But in your own experience after the stream entry thing, which happened 15 years ago or more, can you outline how it has evolved, some stages of progress? And I know that there’s that whole thing of, those who know don’t say and those who say don’t know, but still, as Daniel would emphasize, as Jesus said, we shouldn’t hide our light under a bushel, we should be able to talk about these things. At least that’s how books got written about them, or the ancient scriptures. Somebody wrote it down. And people should know, well, if I’m going to do this, what’s the payoff? What could I expect to experience after 20 years of practice or something that would really make it worthwhile?
Constance: It just continues to unfold more and more.
Rick: More blissfulness, or happiness, or wisdom.
Constance: Yes.
Rick: Compassion, love.
Constance: Depth of compassion, wisdom, love, over and over. I was just eating something the other day and I realized I understand, like, so many things. Like, when Jesus said, this is my body, this is my blood, I get that.
Rick: How do you interpret that?
Constance: We are all connected through everything.
Rick: Uh huh.
Constance: We’re all actually in every breath and every drink of water and everything that we do the earth and every piece is all connected through everything and it’s just deepened and deepened. The levels of training and the levels of work that I’m doing I reserve for my teachers. The closer conversations about stages and levels are what I have with my teachers at this point. But I have been given support by my teachers to talk about stream entry.
Rick: So in other words, you’re actually advised not to talk about some of these other things because they’re too intimate, or it wouldn’t be constructive to talk about them for you, or perhaps for others.
Constance: Not on this forum, but in more close circles.
Rick: Right, private classes and things.
Constance: In classes I would with private students, but in this forum it’s better for me not to.
Rick: No, I understand. I’ve been on courses, six-month meditation courses, where people are mic hogs. They’re just getting up on the mic and just boasting about all these flashy experiences they’re having and everything, and then, you know, 20 years later, they’ve really gone off the deep end into some dark place and so what was all that about? And I’ve interviewed some people, like Swami Sarvapayananda, for instance, who I respect a lot, and in his tradition, he says, we just don’t say. You’ll never get me to admit to anything, any state of enlightenment or anything else. It’s not something that you would talk about.
Constance: Well, once you get into the stream, you pretty much get moving forward, if you have good teaching and you have good support, you really just get so pulled more and more closer and more intimate into the process. And yeah, it’s been hard for me to talk about it. I haven’t heard that many people talk about it. So it’s fun to talk about it with you, right? And hopefully others will benefit from this. And that was how my teachers approved of this book and said, for this purpose, we would like this to be inspiring to others. And that’s how I hold this.
Rick: Did you ever read Peace Pilgrim’s little book?
Constance: No.
Rick: You’d like it. It was this lady who called herself Peace Pilgrim and she just walked around the United States wearing a sweatshirt that said Peace Pilgrim on it with, nothing but the clothes on her back, no money, no nothing, completely at the mercy of God or nature or whatever. And she did this for years and she was never harmed, she was always fed or given a place to sleep, almost always. It was a little rough sometimes, but she just had this radiant saintly look on her face. And the reason I thought of her was that you talked about how after stream entry, it just sort of really accelerates. And she actually had this little chart in her book, she didn’t call it stream entry, but prior to awakening, whatever she called it, it was sort of wiggly up and down, but then once you reach a certain point, it just takes off, because God is in the driver’s seat after that, and so it’s a lot better driving.
Constance: And it’s true, a lot of it depends on your willingness. I continue to be extremely willing and open, and I did go to Spirit Rock, I came home in November and I went to Spirit Rock in March on a full, intensive, silent retreat and that really brought deeper practice, intensive practice very quickly. And that pile of rocks that was on my driveway when I got home from Malaysia…
Rick: Oh yeah, I heard about that.
Constance: It sat there for about three years. I was going through a lot of adjustment and we had to rebuild that retaining wall because it wasn’t plumb. And so, it took us a while to do a lot of things and go slow. And I really want my story to help people understand to go slow, be gradual, take it easy. You know, you don’t need a lot of bleed-through and trouble. You can actually be gentle and take it easy, slow things down.
Rick: Reminds me of “Brother Sun, Sister Moon”. There’s that beautiful song that went, “Do few things and do them well. Take your time, go slowly.”
Constance: Yeah.
Rick: Remember that? Donovan sang those songs.
Constance: It’s beautiful.
Rick: Yeah. Is your husband, Stuart, still in the game?
Constance: Oh, yeah, yeah. He’s around. We all work together.
Rick: Okay, good.
Constance: Lots of things together.
Rick: He’s a saint.
Constance: He is.
Rick: I mean, he was just hanging in there with all this wild stuff you were going through.
Constance: I know. He’s just got his way of supporting us and he loves us, through the things that he does.
Rick: That’s great.
Constance: We have different ways of being, different ways of communicating, and I really respect and love him for all of the work he’s done and that he continues to do for us.
Rick: You know, several times in the last few minutes you’ve said, “My teacher said I could do this, my teacher said I could do that.” And some people might hear that and think, “Well, wait a minute, can’t she do whatever the heck she wants? Why does she have to take orders from her teachers?” And I could give an answer to that, but I’d like to hear you respond to that, a possible objection.
Constance: Well, I think it’s about a resonance in the advice. It isn’t just what they said, but I resonate with it. And so I think that is wise for me. I also don’t really want to give ideas about other stages of awakening.
Rick: I’m not questioning that, the decision not to talk about those stages, but the point of obeying a teacher, that’s a little problematic for some people. And it’s actually abused in some cases.
Constance: I’m not very good at that. I’ve never been very good at that. I’m generally, I don’t get along very well with hierarchy. And because of all of my years in recovery, where everyone was equal, and if there was someone else that needed to speak they could. I actually loved the days when we didn’t have a speaker, and someone just had to step up. And that was their day, and we all learned from that person. I’ve had trouble in organizations where there’s a lot of hierarchy. I don’t do well with that. Also a lot of women have been harmed through the patriarchy for a long time and I really felt that and I’m aware of that. And so it isn’t that my teacher said it, it’s just that in conversation it felt wise for me to agree.
Rick: I was just having a conversation with a friend this morning and we were talking about how some spiritual teachers lament that they actually don’t have any friends who are peers, who are not treating them as special. The only friends they have are their students, but there’s this hierarchical feeling. And especially if they wanted to have a kind of romantic relationship with somebody, it’s very problematic. And we were talking about how teachers really need to have a circle of friends who can call them on their stuff, treat them like an ordinary Joe, not make a big fuss about them, things like that.
Constance: That’s right, and that’s why I’m interested in this organization that you’ve started. And in signing up for that as well and getting to know other people.
Rick: You’re referring to the Association for Spiritual Integrity, which is spiritual-integrity.org, and one of our functions is to help to create networks. We actually have this thing where people create these little subgroups and have a monthly Zoom meeting or something, just where they can kind of touch base and see how they’re doing and check up on each other, things like that.
Constance: That’s true. I feel like the kind of role that I would hold is sort of like, we’re at different places on the path but we’re the same distance from the ditch.
Rick: I like that phrase. I’m going to remember that one.
Constance: I really feel that there is some respect for having more experience and and holding space that is based in respect and kindness and really working with skills around that. But that everyone has a voice. Everyone has wisdom to share. Everyone has something to offer. I don’t want to be like this whole attention. I don’t think I could do that. I would like to hear from others like a wisdom circle.
Rick: Yeah, that’s really good. And I’ve actually seen situations in which constructive criticism is not allowed and if it’s offered, that person is ostracized. Literally their bags are packed for them and they’re out of there.
Constance: That’s really difficult. I like to be corrected. “Please correct me if I’m wrong”. I want to be corrected.
Rick: Yeah, and everyone needs it, I think, because nobody, in my experience, is above or beyond self-delusion. It’s easy to kind of like be blind to one’s own weak spots and limitations, and you really need a peer of some sort, perhaps a spouse, perhaps a friend or perhaps a circle of friends. There’s that poem by Robert Burns, “Oh, would some God the gift to give us to see ourselves as others see us.”
Constance: It’s true. I think we need feedback. Like, I recently told someone who is a friend of mine and who’s very highly enlightened that he is an oaf. You’re acting a lot like an oaf. And the indifference, you know, is inappropriate. And this is not a time for that kind of, I don’t know if it’s equanimity, but the near enemy of equanimity is indifference. And there can be a lot of spiritual teachers, they get into this sort of indifference, like they’re above it all or something. And no, we need to stay centered in the heart, and connected with the heart, and have compassion for many things and struggles and traumas that are part of our own lives. Recently, there was part of a trauma of my own life. So I’m really, really aware of that.
Rick: That’s good.
Constance: People can connect with me on conversations and on Substack, I have some videos and newsletters, and they can learn more about me. And my way of being in the world is just to be myself, you know, just working with life as it is. Now, I don’t want to be above anything, I want to just be with what is right here. Even if it’s really difficult, and it has been many, many times in my life, very difficult.
Rick: Yeah, that’s interesting what you said about indifference. You know, there’s that phrase “spiritual bypassing.”
Constance: Oh, yeah.
Rick: You’ve heard of that one, where people somehow use some spiritual concept or even experience to elude things that they actually should be dealing with.
Constance: Yeah, I guess I just look at that as one of the hindrances, and part of the way I teach is to look at the five hindrances. And as we awaken the factors of enlightenment within us, the hindrances go down. So, the factors of enlightenment are within us. And as they go up, the hindrances go down. And we don’t want to hide, we don’t want to be dishonest. We want to know, we want to really work with this. This is workable material. There is cool stuff in here. We want to know it and be with it and it’s juicy, it’s alive, it’s got vital life force flowing through all the time. It’s amazing.
Rick: Nice. Let me look at my notes here. Okay, so are there any questions have come in, Irene? No questions. So, what is your method of teaching now? What do you do, how often do you do it with people, that kind of thing.
Constance: Sure. Okay, let me find this little chart if I have it. I have a chart, this is my little thing. Can you see this?
Rick: Hold it still for a minute and we can just take a glance at it. Yeah, so, okay, factors of enlightenment, five hindrances, that’s what you’re referring to. Why don’t you go into some details on those? We have time.
Constance: So, actually, whenever I was doing a fourth step, which is in the 12-step program, for many, many years, I was taking inventory on what was going on with me that was preventing me from being closer to turning over my will and my life. And I didn’t realize it that actually it was the same as these five hindrances, which the Buddha talked about and are discussed in Theravada Buddhism. And so it really helps to get familiar with these five hindrances or like clouds that once we see them, we can just see that all that’s a delusion.
Rick: Remind us what they are. Have you already enumerated them earlier?
Constance: Well, no. The first one is desire. Desire is sort of like grasping for something, greed or desire, you really want something, you’re pulling it toward you.
Rick: Before you go to the next one, so it’s the difference between “I want some cheesecake” and “I WANT SOME CHEESECAKE?”
Constance: That’s the difference. The compulsiveness, the real urgency.
Rick: Attachment, maybe.
Constance: The attachment, yeah. The clinging to it instead of seeing that this is an option and it’s not harmful. There’s nothing wrong with it. You can enjoy it.
Rick: But if you don’t get it, it’s not the end of the world.
Constance: Right, right. And so then the next one is inappropriate anger or ill will, and that also includes boredom because sometimes when we’re bored, we’re saying to the universe, “You’re not interesting enough to me. I don’t like you, universe.” And we don’t see our participation. So we have to look at our participation in these.
Rick: Some say that anger is blocked desire, like thwarted desire. If you desire something and you get up against a wall, then the inappropriate but all too common reaction is to flare up in anger.
Constance: Right, right. And so, for these first two hindrances, the desire and the anger are like two sides, like that’s one side and that’s the other side. So, one is grasping, clinging, and one is pushing away, not wanting. And so, it’s really important to be aware of this happening, because in samsara is nirvana.
Rick: Define those terms.
Constance: So, samsara is the cycle of suffering that we’re going through over and over again. And when we get closer and closer into it and we get really close and gentle and feel it in our body and the senseate awareness, the release comes. So we have to get intimate with what is going on and what we’re participating in and what these habitual tendencies are. And we all have these too. We all have them. And that’s one of the things that freed me up in studying Theravada Buddhism, because I had been looking at all of these things going on within me for years and years and years. And in the program, they were labeled as defects of character. And so I thought, “There’s something wrong with me.” But there’s nothing wrong. It’s just part of what we need to work with. It’s just part of the workable batter that’s here so that we can learn to become more and more skillful with and more honest about. And those two are like one side of the coin, the other side of the coin, compulsive desire and then the anger and ill will. And then the next two hindrances are also like one side of the coin and the other. The next one is stagnation, which we can label as a kind of like overall, like a sort of stuckness, kind of like a mud puddle with sticks and moss and everything grown over it.
Rick: Like dullness, lethargy?
Constance: Dullness, lethargy, just like real cloudiness. And then the next one is agitation, where you’re just overexcited, overstimulated. Now agitation is just like the water is just all like this. And then the stagnation is like the water’s like this. And so those two are also good to be aware of, like how is the energy moving here, and here, and what can you do to support yourself to move through that with some clarity and some kindness and gentleness. And then underneath all of these is doubt. And with stream entry, the doubt gets severely removed. The doubt is gone because you realize at this point that there isn’t any other way but this. You have to pay attention to what is. And so the doubt is also something to become friends with because when you look at your relationship with doubt, you’re building a sense of faith in the process. And so I feel like the doubt is sort of like the bottom or like all in here and then these are these hindrances here. And so I wanted to do a drawing about it, but I haven’t done that yet. And this is really important. We have to get honest with ourselves. And like I said before, in the beginning, you have to remove shame. You have to remove inappropriate shame and feelings of unworthiness when these things come up, because that prevents you from learning. If there’s overwhelming shame, you can’t learn. But like you said, it’s okay to have shame for inappropriate behavior. If I’ve done something wrong, I want to be corrected. And so there might be some appropriate shame. And I want to make, I want to resolve not to do that again. And I want to apologize and I want to repair and make amends. That’s an appropriate amount of shame. But sometimes in our culture, there’s like a constricted sense of shame for learning, for just learning about this human life, you know? Because as kids and in school, you don’t get taught emotional states of being, and being in different states, and working through difficult states. You know, this emotional intelligence is not honored and supported in our society. And so, I try to teach through that, and then the mindfulness of being aware of these states with a sense of generosity and kindness for yourself as you really tune in to what’s happening and possibly also uncover some deeply hidden beliefs that are there, and working through whatever it is and then getting closer and closer into meditation and what you’re comfortable with for sitting times. I think people should build up gradually, very gradually. And I was sitting like I’ve been sitting for years and years and years, but I was sitting before I went to Malaysia, I was sitting three times a day and then I was doing half-day retreats, and then weekend retreats, and then a five-day retreat, and then a ten-day retreat, and then I went on a big, long retreat.
Rick: Right
Constance: So I do think it’s really important to gradually build up your sitting practice so that you’re really staying centered and you’re integrated with your life and your family and at home, feel safe. You can start to work with what’s happening because this sense of self gets all broken up.
Rick: And you probably need some instruction on how to meditate, otherwise you can’t just sit. You need to know what to do a little bit.
Constance: Yep.
Rick: Otherwise, there needs to be some kind of confirmation that you’re doing the right thing or not doing the right thing and so on.
Constance: And it’s different for different people.
Rick: Yeah.
Constance: The Buddha taught like 37 different types of meditation.
Rick: Yeah. There’s something called the Shiva Sutras which outlines something like 108 different ways of transcending.
Constance: Yeah. And that’s a discovery process. You know, I’m not a Buddha and I’m not as wise as all that, so it’s a discovery process with each student. They sometimes find their own path.
Rick: Yeah.
Constance: Through that too.
Rick: And what was it you had on the other side of that chart? You had the hindrances side and the enlightenment side.
Constance: Yeah. So the other side is mindfulness. Well, here we go. So mindfulness, investigation. So really need to have a sense of natural curiosity and be open with what’s happening and then being aware of energy and you do need energy. Now, if you’re in stagnation, then we need to get things moving, need to get things opened up, bring in some fresh air, bring in some water energy, and really move energy. You do need energy. And it has to be wholesome energy, you know? It’s balanced, like not too tight, not too loose. Finding that middle ground with energy is so important. And then right in the middle here is nurturing contentment. A lot of people don’t realize that even just like when they’re sitting on a bench waiting for the bus, huh, just enjoy that.
Rick: Yeah, I know. And you feel like, “ugh” doesn’t make the bus come any faster.
Constance: Right! Like, “When is it going to get here? When is it going to get here?” You know, I would just enjoy.
Rick: Yeah.
Constance: You know, there are so many moments throughout the day.
Rick: Maybe have a nice conversation with somebody who’s sitting on the bench with you.
Constance: Yes! Yes, I met a beautiful woman once who really helped me on the bus stop. She was beautiful. She really gave me advice. She was like 40 years older than me at the time. She was so nice. So, yeah, we can pay attention. And then the next thing is tranquility. How can you build more tranquility into your life? More peace, more simplicity, and then feeling the tranquility as you settle into meditation. You feel that sense of inner peace and calm and letting that arise, those feelings of delight, like you said, when you enjoyed meditation, letting that arise.
Rick: Yeah, it’s blissful.
Constance: For some people it arises for a few seconds and they’re like, “What’s that?” They’re like not used to it, you know, like, “What? What just happened?” That was nice. Oh, you can deepen in that. You can let that deepen and you can refresh yourself with that more and more. And then that leads you into samadhi. That leads you into deep samadhi and then that leads you to equanimity. And equanimity is that wonderful harmonious balance within, that’s just right here, right here. And we don’t realize it. I didn’t know until I really got into Buddhist practice that when you’re practicing meditation, these hindrances are at bay. They’re relaxed. They’re not there. And so then the mind is free. It’s free to just really be present with these beautiful states of being. Delight, joy, peace. These other states are available to us. And we don’t need any drugs. You don’t need any drugs, they’re like perfectly here and available. You know, it’s amazing to me. If so many people knew about this, and they could just take their time, and go slow, and be gentle, and develop this more and more as part of their life, it would help the whole world.
Rick: Yeah, we’ve all got it within us. It’s like I sometimes say, it’s like we’ve all won the lottery, but most of us have the winning ticket in a sock drawer and we don’t realize we’ve won. We’re begging on the street but we’re actually multi-millionaires.
Constance: Right, exactly. Yeah.
Rick: Yeah. Okay.
Constance: Time’s just flying here. Oh my goodness.
Rick: Yeah, isn’t it? What is that saying? Kermit the Frog. “Time’s fun when you’re having flies”. That’s a good one. I love Kermit the Frog. So, this has been a delightful couple of hours. I’ve really enjoyed talking to you and getting to know you better, and you really radiate what you talk about. And there’s not an ounce of phoniness in you.
Constance: Oh, that’s good. Thank you.
Rick: Appreciate it. So I’ll be putting up a page on BatGap with a link to your website and anything else you want me to link to. Like you said, this Substack thing or something, I can link to that. Make sure I have everything I need to link to. And people can go there and get in touch, get on a mailing list if you have one, or organize to have classes with you or whatever, right?
Constance: Thank you so much. Yeah. I have a Substack newsletter, Constance Casey on Substack. That’s where most people sign up to know about my events and classes and things like that.
Rick: Yeah. So I hope you get a nice BatGap bump, as we call it.
Constance: Thank you. May this be a benefit to all beings.
Rick: Yeah, well that’s the idea for all this.
Constance: Yeah.
Rick: So thanks Constance, and thank you to your husband and your sons and everybody who has been supporting you and enabling you to make the wonderful progress that you’ve made.
Constance: Yeah, the apparent me is made that’s here, that’s so grateful for all of the support. Yes.
Rick: Yeah. Good. Alrighty. Thanks to those who’ve been listening or watching, and there’s an upcoming interviews page on batgap.com so you can see who we’ve got scheduled. We usually only schedule about a month in advance, but you can always take a look at that. And then of course, check out all the other menus on batgap.com, like if you’d like to be notified by email whenever there’s a new interview, sign up for that, or subscribe to the YouTube channel and YouTube will notify you, and so on. You guys know how to do this kind of stuff. So, let’s check out what we have to offer.
Constance: Yeah, I think it’s really great that you have all this variety and that you’re really encouraging. I feel like you’re like an awakening doula, you know?
Rick: Oh yeah, doula is like a birth person, right? Or no, a death person. They have death doulas also.
Constance: They have birth doulas and death doulas now. I feel you’re like an awakening doula and bringing all of these voices together and giving this voice to let people know that there are these options.
Rick: Yeah, maybe I’m a yenta. Remember Fiddler on the Roof? Yeah, you know, I love playing that kind of role. And anyway, I won’t elaborate on that. But so anyway, thanks to you. Thanks to those who’ve been listening or watching, and we’ll see you for the next one.
Constance: Okay, bye-bye.
Rick: Bye. Thank you.