Cate Grieves Transcript

Cate Grieves Interview

Summary:

Rick: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer. Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of conversations with spiritually awakening people. I’ve done about 620 something of them now. And if this is new to you, and you’d like to check out previous ones, please go to batgap.com – b a t g a p – and look under the Past Interviews menu, where you’ll find them all organized in several different ways. This program is made possible through the support of appreciative listeners and viewers. So, if you appreciate it and would like to help support it, there’s a PayPal button on every page of the website. And we are registered as a nonprofit organization. My guest today is Cate Grieves. Cate lives in Australia, about an hour and a half south of the city of Melbourne on a peninsula. We were just talking about that. And it’s summer there and the gum trees are in bloom. And there are these lorikeets flying around because they like to eat the blossoms and you can hear them chirping in the background while we talk. So, that’ll be a nice added sound effect. So, welcome, Cate.

Cate: Hi, Rick. Welcome. And welcome everyone.

Rick: Yeah, thanks for.

Cate: Lovely to be here.

Rick: Yeah, good to have you. So, we’re going to be talking quite a bit about A Course in Miracles today, since that has been Cate’s primary spiritual path, I guess. And she’s had some profound experiences as a result of the study of it. And I’ve interviewed quite a few people in that, I guess you’d call it a niche or a tradition: Marianne Williamson, and what’s his name, Gary Renard, David Hoffmeister. And then there’s something else called A Course in Love, which seems to be somewhat parallel, but different. And I’ve interviewed a few people in that too. And there’s a categorical index on batgap.com that you can, it’s under the Past Interviews menu, and if you check that out, you’ll see all the different categories of interviews that we’ve done. But in any case, A Course in Miracles has been very profound for a lot of people. And I’ve never studied it. Although, you know, I’m somewhat familiar with it from interviewing these people. But we’re going to learn more about it today and about the effect that it’s had on Cate’s life. So, maybe you can start, Cate, by giving us, you want to start right in talking about A Course in Miracles, or you want to give us more of your background, before we get into that?

Cate: I’m feeling just to maybe start with my background.

Rick: Okay, good. Let’s do that.

Cate: Then I’ll go into the teachings and how they changed my life.

Rick: Ok, why don’t you do that.

Cate: So, first of all, for some reason, I just, you sent me your little, something you wrote about your life. And about that, it was just sort of like a one-page document you sent me and I read it just a few hours before I came on. And I felt that connection with that part of you. What you wrote was about that seeking, that feeling of as basically desperation or something really, part of your whole psyche is calling out for a better way, another way, there’s got to be something better. There’s got to be something more than this, more than what I’m experiencing. So, that feeling, and I think everyone gets to that place where they have that nothing’s working for me. I’ve got to find something. And so, I had certain life situations for myself, which I won’t go into too much in this interview because it’s a bit private. It’s about other people’s lives that I was interacting with. And I just was brought my knees really in a huge way, just really, really brought to my knees. And I had bought the Course of Miracles. I was sort of desperate around late the 90s. So, in 1999, I actually purchased the book of the Course of Miracles. But prior to that, I was very sick. I had chronic fatigue. I had tonsillitis all the time. I was depressed, anxious. I was in a real state. And I was reading lots of self-help books at that stage. And I, you know, as there’s this inner calling in all of us just sort of, there’s got to be something better, or where do I get to the truth? Or how do I? What’s this all about? So, there’s sort of like an inner yearning. And as that yearning came up, I think it was, you know, just that, you know, lying in bed and feeling very vulnerable, and not knowing what’s going on. So, I went to my local bookshop, which I love, and I saw a copy of A Course in Miracles. And as I pulled it out, I heard the words in my mind, ‘this is the only book you need, throw out the rest.’ And I’d heard about this book, I’d been in Al-Anon for many years, and I’d heard about this book from my sponsor. And that’s the only time I’d heard it. I’ve heard her say that she’d read it. And her god of her understanding was love. And I thought to myself love? How can love be a god of understanding because I was living at that time, with a god of duality, a god of good and bad. So, no, Al-Anon is for family and friends of alcoholics. Yeah, it’s a 12-step program. But 12-step programs are for, you know, you start to realize that they’re for everything because we’re addicted to our thinking, our egoic thoughts in the end. So, that’s what we come to say, right, the addiction. So, when I got that message, you know, I bought the book, and I took it home. But I was a little bit scared of it, because it just seemed very strange, it seemed a bit different. The wording was different. It talked about God. I’d shunned God. And even though I’d been in Al Anon for 10 years, I struggled to get a god of my understanding, I just couldn’t get it. So, I picked up the book. And for 14 years, I, on my own, I just did the lessons and I read some of the text. And I really felt this inner calling that this was for me. I just kept getting called back, keep reading it. I never went to any groups, I never knew anyone else studied it. I never mentioned to anyone except the current husband that I was with then that I was doing it. And I would try to do the little lessons, but they didn’t, it didn’t really change my life. And then in January 2013, things in my life came to a head. I was having situations with my daughter. My relation, I’d left my husband and our relationship had broken up on New Year’s Eve. And I remember just sitting on my bed and saying, you know, I just want to be out of this world. There’s nothing here, I’m not happy. There’s nothing, there’s just looking around, there didn’t seem to be any happy relationships. I couldn’t see anyone really happy. So, I thought to myself, I either top myself and leave this world, or I, the one thing I haven’t done is follow the spiritual path and do it properly. So, I made a commitment for the next two years, my whole life was going to be about practicing these teachings the way they’d been presented, rather than a bit here and a bit there and maybe a bit of meditation now and again, a little bit of doing the lessons or reading the text. So, I was working full time as an accountant in a busy real estate agency close to the city. And I was cut off. My career, I’ve had senior roles in lots of all organizations, and I was working in real estate at that time. And I, even though I kept doing my full-time job, I was living on my own. And I just made that every moment that I wasn’t at work, or I was doing, I was listening to a teacher or I was reading something or meditating. So, I just gave up TV, newspapers, the internet wasn’t a really, it was sort of big then, but not as big as it is now. And I fully devoted myself for two years to these teachings, and part of the teachings of A Course in Miracles is to get connected to what they call the Holy Spirit. So, I had to let go of all religious connotations, because I really shunned all that, you know, rah, rah, rah, rah about, you know, Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit. And I had to get a new understanding of God, of Jesus, and Holy Spirit to work with the teachings. So, I really used other teachers of the Course in Miracles to help me. And so, I would sit quietly, and I would write questions to the Holy Spirit, because the Course says that there’s an answer in your mind to any situation you find yourself in. So, I started off writing, and then I started to receive answers, and I’d be writing them down. And I would follow that. So, I just decided to follow whatever was coming through. And if sometimes I’d write about something, and it would say, that person is seeking love, go and love them. Just be there for them and love them. So, this inner voice started directing me. And so, one of the big part of the Course’s teachings is about grievances. And it says that, you know, grievances hide the light. So, I’m blocking the light in me. So, the light is in me, but it’s blocked, because I have these grievances. And I had this massive grievance against my dad. I blamed him for everything that was wrong in my life. So, I thought, gosh, this is so embedded in me, because I was in my early 50s when I started. I think I was 52. And I started to do this two-year journey with the Course in a really strong way. And I just said, Holy Spirit, I want all my relationships brought back to harmonious. I want to be able to go and see my dad and just feel love towards him. I want to go and everyone I meet, I just want to have no angst, no upset, no conflict. I want just peace in my mind, and peaceful relationships. So, that was my goal at the start. And so, throughout that two years, the Holy Spirit, and then, it worked with me. And then as I got into it, Jesus started coming into my mind. And his, I started to connect with him through visualizations in my mind. And he healed me of this belief in sin. Because the Course says that there’s a part of us that feels very guilty, and it’s really unconscious, it’s out of awareness. And so, as that guilt would come up in a way that I could work with it with my inner guides, and I started to really connect deeply with Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Now, it’s easy to say, you know, when you get to the end of the journey, where I am now that that’s my, they’re me. And they’re helping myself, that I had to work with them as if they weren’t me. Because I was in what I call the ego mind, I was fully immersed in my, you know, reactive fearful mind that I didn’t even know I was in. And then the Course has this sort of analogy of a ladder, that you’re on the bottom of the ladder, and you have no awareness of what’s up the ladder. And so, anyone at the top of the ladder is looking at a completely different or even a different mind than where you are at the bottom of the ladder. So, I became very humble in that start of the journey. And I just said, you know what, I’m just going to tell myself that I don’t know anything, and I’m going to learn a new way to be. I’m going to become a real student. And so, 12 months nearly to the day after I started that two-year journey in January 2013, I had a revelatory experience. And it was just so beautiful. It was just this beautiful peace in my mind, it was just so glorious. It was the first time I’d ever had this beautiful peace. But that left, it only lasted a few hours. And then the second year of the journey, which was much more beautific. The first 12 months, I literally cried. I was just crying. It was like all this stuff that was bottled up was coming out. Now not everybody does that, everybody’s different with their journey. But I cried, I just cried a lot. It was like, it was sort of clearing crying, you could say. It wasn’t stuck crying, stuck in it. It was more like releasing. And then the second part of the second year, I started to get these periods of peace. And I did go through some really big changes in my mind. And then in January 2015, nearly 12 months to the date. I had an awakening in the shower, one morning going to work. So, it was a Wednesday morning, and I was getting ready for work. And I was doing this surrendering, you know, I surrender everything to God. I’m just here, my surrender. And just these, I was going through these periods of going out. I lived on a little river. I’d go out on the riverbank and just lie down and open my arms and legs up and just say I give myself like, surrender. I let everything go. I just want to know your love. I just want to know you. And then when I got in the shower that morning, I just, everything changed. And I just started laughing. And I saw everything as God. And that can sound really strange to say that. But what was happening, what I realized afterwards was that my mind had shifted into this sort of God’s mind, which has this sort of, like this infinite state of. So, the Course talks about the real world or true vision. And I just was laughing and I’m like, everything’s God, everything’s wow. And everything’s beautiful. And I was driving to work. And I’m, just was in a sort of mystical state of mind. And I got into my office, and I looked at the computer, and it was, I was really struggling to do my accounting work that day. And luckily, I wasn’t that busy that day, right? And then, it did, it settled down after an hour or two, but, and my boss came in about half an hour after I got into work. And he looked at me and he said, okay, we’ll go through the profit reports this morning. And I remember thinking, oh, he thinks he’s a person, and he thinks he needs money. And I was really like, I could see the truth. But I knew in some part of my mind that I needed to anchor down to do my day’s work. So, I very quickly, I wasn’t in an ashram or something where I could just run around and hug everyone. I had to honor my boss, he needed me to work. I needed to integrate very quickly where I was and what I was doing. I couldn’t just get up and say, hey, this is what I’m seeing and walk out of the office. So, I just really quickly settled my mind. And I started to work. But I was in this sort of really amazing mystical way. Well, you call it mystical, but it was just really, I was experiencing the truth of myself and the world. And then from that I was given, a few weeks later, I was shown that I didn’t have it all, and that to keep going and more and more would come in. And that’s why you know, like you call this spiritually awakening, because it’s infinite. And I’ve even had more this week. So, the way I look at it, I always tell anyone that I do groups with, I’m not there yet, because I’m getting more and more all the time. But it’s that I’m living in peace. I have peace of mind. And I have this beautiful experience of this vast mind, and this love and connected with the Divine. And so, even though more is dropping in, and more is being revealed over time, the peace is still with me, and it hasn’t left me since that time. And that was I think about seven years ago now. And yes, So, that’s in a nutshell what happened to me. But six months after that initial awakening, I had a recognition that there was no me, that I was made up that by my thoughts and my beliefs. And that where I was living was free of like, what I would call a self-referencing at the thoughts that reference back to a small, limited self. So, the thought system of the ego had dropped away completely, and there was just this quietness. And I was able to then move back into my mind and look at the thoughts and see the ego as a, like a bunch of thoughts. And they were like in a balloon, and none were escaping out the end anymore into my mind. It was sort of like, and I just saw that all those thoughts made me think I was a person, it was a personal self. They, all the thoughts, self-referenced a small me. A me in a world that was having problems and having difficulties. And when all those thoughts were absent in my mind, there was freedom, freedom of fear, freedom of guilt, but still able to, you know, make a cup of tea and do everything I needed to do. The thoughts that I needed to be having a practical life, being practical, was just natural. But then, over time, over the period, I can’t remember when they came in, but I started to deepen, and I started to see. The Course has this teaching about the tiny mad idea that time is happening all at once. And I started to see those things, because my mind was in what we call in the, what Course calls, the Holy Spirit mind, looks back from the end of time. So, time looks back from the end of time. So, time is past and future in time and space in the ego thought system. So, outside that, you’re looking back in timelessness. So, I was able to see that there had never been a self called Cate. I would see that what he calls the world is a dream and an illusory world, I was able to see that. I was able to see where the mind had had a tiny mad idea. And how it was one ego mind. So, there was, there’s this one.

Rick: You’re saying tiny mad, m-a-d, idea?

Cate: Yeah. So, the Course has a really popular line, it says that the mind that was one with the Creator. So, I’ll just give you the teaching of the Course in Miracles around what we’re seeing here, where we think we are and what we’re doing. So, in truth there’s just the creator and the creations which is just God and his Son as the Course calls it, but these are all words trying to point us to what we are and where we are. So, all we need to know is that, the way I like to put it is rather than using the word God, because that can have all connotations from religious upbringings, just think of an infinite love without an opposite, the divine, the beloved. Everyone can sort of, like a lot of traditions use other words than God, but it doesn’t matter. Whatever works for you. Creator. But I love the word infinite love without an opposite. And so, when we get into that state of being one with that, there’s no separation between that infinite love and what we are. So, if you’ve had an experience that’s been in the infinite love, the divine, you’ll know what I’m saying. Now whether that stays around for a few hours, or you’re living in that, everyone’s generally had some experience of that. Now, why do we find ourselves here in a world seemingly in bodies and a seemingly physical world around us? So, the Course answers that by saying that this, the mind, head, the Son’s mind, so, God is the infinite love without an opposite, and we’re there with the Father. But it’s not that infinite love is all around us, but we’re one with it. And then that taught, there was a tiny thought in that, in the Son’s mind that it just had a tiny mad idea that it could be separate. And what happened from that, that thought made it sort of like a little jolt in the mind. And it felt it had for the first time, it felt guilt. There was guilt there. Now, even though we can all relate to that, we can all relate to, have been very open and loving, and then having a thought of guilt. So, we don’t have to think this sounds really abstract, because we’re doing it all the time. We’re having that thought of guilt over and over. And so, the mind had a thought of guilt, it felt so, it felt sort of like, it felt so bad of having that thought of guilt, that it closed off. So, there was like these steps of closing off from that infinite love. So, the mind started like closing doors, like walking through rooms and just closing each door. And as we closed each door, we forgot what was in those other rooms. So, we’ve closed them and so, the one mind, it came to a point. In one room, there is the one mind that is the one ego, which is the one mind. And this is the reason why I’m stressing this as this is an important point. This one mind of the ego, it’s like we’re all this one mind of ego, and the ego mind is guilt. And then because that got so bad, it splintered off in which looks like many and a world was projected out by the mind. So, this whole world is a projection from that one mind of the ego, but it looks like we’ve all got separate egos. It looks like there’s billions of egos here, billions of bodies, and everybody has a separate ego. But that’s the fallacy, that’s false. We all have the same ego mind from that one ego mind. It’s, we all have, we’re all referencing back to that mind. But that’s like through the next, that’s sort of hidden in the next door. So, we’re in this end room, and we have to go back the way we came in. And so, the Course has a very, that’s the way it explains it. But in truth, we never left our source. We never left that infinite love without an opposite. So, but we find ourselves here. So, we’re reminded of truth. And so, what the Course tells us is that where you find yourself is not your real home, and you have a feeling about that. But what happens is because we’ve closed off these doors, and we can’t see where we’ve come from, we’re scared to open the door. But we want to go home, we want to go back there, but we’re so scared of leaving what we’ve made here, what we’re used to. So, this world of physicality and, you know, we’ve tried to make up this false love. And so, how the Course gets us back home, back to that true place in our mind, he uses our relationships. So, he says, all your relationships will be used to bring you home. So, I know you have used meditation. So, it doesn’t matter what path you use. You don’t have to use the Course in Miracles, but for me, it was sort of like my calling-help me, that came in and it’s been beautific. Now it’s not easy because to get home to that, it to experience that infinite love, you can’t have a grievance, you can’t have a judgment on a brother here. You’ve got to remit, you’ve got to have all your grievances undone, And so, he uses this. He asks us to see the innocence and the holiness of our brother. And he says that is your way home, how you see your brother in your mind, your mind is then being taken back, and it’s been washed away from its belief in separation through how you perceive your brother. And that’s very hard for us, because we’ve got, we’re in the ego judgment thought system. And the ego just constantly judges and compares and criticizes and says they’re guilty, or I’m guilty, or you know. So, we’re in this mess, this messy, egoic mind, and we need help to get out. And so, the only way we can get out is by asking for that help. And it’s like, whenever we say, you know, Holy Spirit help me, I’m upset, I’m in, you know, I’m feeling irritated or I’m angry or whatever. How the Course works is it says whenever you’re upset, apply this sort of remedy to it. So, it just, so, the Course has got 365 lessons. And he says, just apply the lesson as the remedy, or something else in your mind, or something from the Course to it. So, the miracle, the Course in Miracles, the miracle is the outcome, the forgiveness is noticing the upset, applying the remedy, shifting your mind, shifting your perception. So, the whole Course is changing your perception. So, perception is our thoughts and beliefs. Because we’re literally, the world is just shapes and colors and movement. And we, our mind gives all the meaning to what we’re seeing, but we can’t see that. We think the meaning is inherent in it. But the thing is, if two people see a different meaning in something, that can’t be the true meaning of it, because if the true meaning would have to be a joint, we’d have to agree on it. And everyone disagrees about the meaning. So, we can argue, we all argue over the meaning. Some people agree. And then all of a sudden, you’ll, you know, you’ll see, you’ll even change your mind about something here about a meaning. Like the Buddha said, you know, you like it or dislike it, you know, you want it one minute, and then you’re pushing it away the next minute. So, the Course takes you through a mind training. It’s meant to be 12 months, but it can take many, many years, to have your mind completely absolved. And it talks about this willingness. People say to me, you did it very quickly, because I did it within two years. But I had this massive dedication, and I really connected to your story, Rick, where there was just this really strong yearning for love and peace. And I just thought those last three lines that you wrote, on what you sent me. This is the line that you connected to: “My gifts thy Lord, I surrender to thee. I feel that God’s grace has blessed me. And my life is dedicated to serving as an instrument of the Divine.” And I just connected to that. So, when I got to this beautiful, peaceful mind, I just said, I’m here to serve you. I’m here to do whatever you would like. And I was guided to start up some groups and hold some groups and meditations and different things like that. But we all take our path. He says we’re all, when we’re back home, so, we help others. So, yeah, have you got any more questions?

Rick: Anymore? I got a million of them. Everything you said.

Cate: A million?

Rick: Well, I don’t know about that, but all the things you said were, you know, we could expand upon and fill up hours talking about. So, I’ll just kind of ask whatever comes to mind and you know, feel free to take it away. But first of all, this is just sort of a compliment, but I was surprised to hear that this all started when you were 52. Because if you asked me your age, I would have guessed you were in your early 50s now. So, maybe this Course of Miracles stuff has an anti-aging effect or something. And you did say, you used an interesting phrase, you said now that I’m at the end of my journey, but then I also heard you say the journey never ends. And so, that one just sort of puzzled me for a little bit.

Cate: I guess it’s like, the end of suffering, and the deepening of truth.

Rick: Yes. Yeah, sometimes I hear people talk about giving up searching, you know, give up the search. And I can relate to that, because I certainly don’t have that yearning, angst, kind of a thing that I used to have. I don’t feel like I’m searching, but because I feel very content and fulfilled and happy. But, you know, I’m still certainly exploring and learning, and I don’t know if there’s any end to that.

Cate: Yeah, that’s right. Well, God is infinite. So, there’s nothing, there’s no ending to this.

Rick: Right. And the range of possible spiritual development is vast, I think vaster than most people realize.

Cate: Yes, I do, too. I agree.

Rick: Good. But then you also mentioned sort of the beginner’s mind kind of a thing. That’s a Zen phrase, you didn’t quite use that phrase. But I think that’s useful. I’ve heard many respected teachers say that it’s actually always good to have the attitude of a beginner, you know, it keeps one humble. And it’s actually true in relation to, again, how much spiritual growth is actually possible. We, in some sense, we’re all beginners, no matter how advanced we may be.

Cate: Definitely. I, and it’s funny, just before I came on, I’ve got the words, beginner’s mind come in. So, it’s interesting. You know, and you had something there about, you know, as Thy Lord, and I was getting over the last day or two, you know, thy will be done. And then someone else sent me that message as well. So, it’s sort of like our minds are joined in this holy love, this divine. It doesn’t matter what words you use, but it’s sort of a love that you said, you know, that even that word surrender. I surrender today, because that was really, the word surrender is not really used in the Course, but it’s pointed to in many ways about coming to God with empty hands. It just means, you know, letting go, just letting go of your life, of all attachments, and just coming.

Rick: Yeah, and you talk a lot about sort of, I’m not sure if you use the word dissolving, but sort of, you know, going beyond an egocentric orientation, you know, seeing through the ego, not functioning from ego, so on and so forth. And I think that relates very much to the surrender idea, because if one regards oneself as either this body, or this sort of localized person, you know, in a very concrete sort of way, then how can one possibly sort of be attuned to cosmic intelligence, or universal mind or whatever we want to call it, which is, which has no constrictions or limitations whatsoever. So, it’s sort of like to really, I think, be surrendered or be a servant of the Divine, one has to realize one’s essential oneness with it, and then one naturally takes on the role of an instrument of that, you know?

Cate: Yes. You know, make me an instrument of thy peace.

Rick: Exactly.

Cate: That’s the beautiful.

Rick: And that’s just not a lofty idea it’s, it can be kind of a reality of one’s daily life.

Cate: Yeah. So, just for anyone listening, you know, listening later, about the body stuff, you have to remember that it’s, we can’t deny the body. It’s important to because, you know, when we get on these spiritual paths, we, most people go off on tangents. So, you always sort of, I did a lot of things that, you know, then I had to be reined back. Because so, we all do it, you know, and you find spiritual people that go off and, you know, and I thought I had to not have any preferences. So, I was like, oh, I got to give up all my preferences, but I was quickly corrected on that. It’s okay to have preferences just don’t attach to them. So, you know, if you like something a certain way, like to dress a certain way, that’s all right, just don’t be attached to it. So, it’s sort of a funny thing on spiritual paths that can get sort of get caught in it and start, you know, trying to start doing something. So, with the body thing, that’s probably the most difficult part of the journey is sort of, in the Course, it says, you know, I am not a body. I am free. I am as God created me. I am spirit. So, we’re asked to repeat that quite a lot, but not deny the body. So, we keep doing what we need to do with the body stuff, and, you know, feeding and showering it, but losing this really strong identity as a body. That’s what he’s, what the teachings are calling us to, asking us to look past the body of someone else, and focus on the holiness, the innocence, the true self. And so, there’ll be that inner state, you know, the divinity in me, sees the divinity in you. So, the holiness in me, looks at the holiness in you. And when you’re around somebody that sees your holiness, or your divinity we chose, what gurus do and masters do, they literally see the beauty in everyone, it’s very, it can really transform you. So, that’s what the Course sort of says is, have your mind cleared, and brought back to its holiness. And then you are now used to see your, the holiness of each brother that you come in contact with. And that’s the miracle being passed on. So, you can actually, the minds are joined and it’s like, there’s something connected to that. So, you know, when I would use to read or listen to stories about, you know, say, Ramana, people would just turn up and just look at him and go into this Samadhi. And I used to think, how can that be, he’s not doing anything that the mind of the person, the devotee, is literally give, they’ve sort of got this permission, they’ve let go. And they’ve, their mind has just sort of let go of everything and it’s just focusing in on the beauty and the divine, the divinity of what they see. And that, in A Course in Miracles, that happens for us with Jesus. So, he, Jesus comes through in the, as the author of the Course. And he says, I’m taking your hand and work with me. So, he becomes that invisible guru, but he says not to view him as a guru. But to think of him as a loving older brother, somebody you know, when you’ve got an older brother, that’s wise, and, you know, you’re like a little sister, or a little brother, and just saying, you know, what, we’re asking questions, hey, what do you do here? Or how would you look upon this? And we just need to open up to that. And I already had a beautiful love of Jesus from when I was in the Catholic Church when I was younger. I always loved Jesus, but I felt even as a young child at church, I sort of left the church about 13 years old, but I remember thinking they’re teaching it wrong. This is not right. But I didn’t know the answer, but I could feel somewhere that to teach that God is wrathful and God punishes and God sees us and judges us, I couldn’t. So, all that’s corrected in the Course. It says, God doesn’t judge. God is perfect love, it’s the divinity, it’s the Divine, it has no opposite. So, our judgment is in our own mind, our own ego mind. So, it takes a while when you start the Course if you’ve already got a whole lot of ways that you think you sort of, some people get it more quickly because they’ve got less. It took me years to change the way I thought about God. Because in my, I’ve still got my original Course book and I’ve, you know, scrubbed letters, words out and changed them because by even the word God, I struggled with that. I had to change my whole idea that there was this infinite love that knew me, created me by my true self. So, what it is, is there’s a center to us, there’s a center, an invisible center that is never changed by anything of this world. And that’s what we’re getting back to, this really beautiful, whole and perfect inner center. And that’s really what we’re pertaining to. And Jesus is that symbol of that divine love. And so, he’s, and the Holy Spirit’s like the wisdom. It doesn’t matter what you use, some people use angels, or it doesn’t matter what you use, everybody has quite a unique path. I’ve worked with many Couse in Miracles students over the last few years. And they all have different ways, we all have our own unique path. But I just like to mention, now, just feeling to mention that even though I studied the Course in Miracles, my main other book was a book called The Disappearance of the Universe by Gary Renard. And that I read well, in that two years, I read them side by side. So, I’d read a couple of pages of the Course in Miracles and a couple of pages of Disappearance, and then do my lesson. And meditate, work. And then I would also, like I would come home on a Friday night from work, and I would say, right, I’m in my Course of Miracles retreat for the weekend in my own little unit. And so, from Friday night to Sunday night I would literally just, you know, turn off everything and meditate, listen to teachers, write out my grievances, say I want to be free of these, let all that turmoil in my mind arise, let it go. And I just sort of would, I really wanted to have that peace, what the Course calls the Peace of God. And so, I guess, what I stand for now is the certainty of people that are going through the Course and feeling like, this is what happens to me when I give up all my attachments. Or if I, you know, it’s easy to think if I don’t have an attachment, I won’t do anything. But really, it’s about that new purpose of being in service. That’s what sort of spirituality is now, about being in service. So, your purpose now becomes, my purpose now, for a few years after I had what they call that awakening experience, I worked in accounting, and I just, the way I went to my job was I just said to myself, I’m here to serve the person that owns this business, and I’m here to do the job he’s asked me to do. I’m just here to do my accounting work, that’s what he wants from me. And I’m blessed by this little bit of money that gets put into my bank account each week or month. So, you can use your, you don’t need to leave anything in the spiritual path, you can give over everything, wherever you are, whatever you’re doing, you can just give it over to love. And just really say, I’m here to honor my brother and do the best job I can. So, the ego is all about getting, you know, getting recognition, climbing the corporate ladder, you know, trying to, you know, comparing and judging, but coming from a spiritual, you can, a spiritual way you can give your job a new purpose. And I think that’s important because a lot of people think that they need to leave their partners and their jobs and, you know, go off and do things and you can, there’s nothing wrong with that, right. But you don’t have to. It’s, these days you can just repurpose. It’s like, you know, everybody’s into recycling, just repurpose, recycle, repurpose your life. You know, so, your life was a purpose to get. The Course says the ego is all about getting. And so, the focus then changes to giving. And then, you know, whatever you need is given back to you. But once you’ve come, I love what you said, you know, just serving as that divine instrument. There’s nothing better I mean, it’s just amazing to be open. But you still need to, for me, I still put that personal time into that quietness. That is number one for me, because if I lose that, I can’t be of help to anyone. So, that’s number one. I’ve taken periods of time away from teaching and all that. And you interviewed Lesley Skylar a couple of years ago on here. And I contacted her after I had my awakening experience. I needed to ground myself. I needed to have someone to talk to. And she was my husband’s spiritual teacher at the time. So, I connected with her, and she helped me through that period. Because it can, it’s just you, you’re right out in that space, that vastness. And she helped sort of anchor me and confirm that what I was experiencing was right. And I don’t know, it was just lovely to have someone, a teacher, I actually hadn’t had a teacher before she was my first one. And it wasn’t for very long, only for about three or four months. And she said to me, she gave me some advice. She said, don’t go out teaching too quickly. She said, take five years, before you do anything. And then sometimes even 10 years. So, what that just means, it doesn’t mean that you don’t do any teaching, it just means that the number one thing is your inner connection to that love. And it’s, there’s so many distractions in this world that can move you out of it. And I mean, we’re going through this huge distraction at the moment, and it’s very easy for spiritual people that have been aligned to lose the alignment, right? And I’ve seen it happen over the last couple of years. And so, the number one thing for all of us needs to be our alignment with that love and wisdom. And to really if we need to take that time. So, I’ve never cared about, I’ve never been attached to or felt responsible for my groups. I’ve always said to the group, I’m taking five weeks off or whatever. And really made sure that I’m connected, because how can I be helpful if I’m not putting that as number one. So, that’s been something that Lesley really helped me with. And I made sure that I kept my groups, well I didn’t keep my groups small, but yeah, I just kept that quietness. I think that’s really important.

Rick: Yeah, somebody else told me recently that they had had a disillusioning, rather traumatic experience with some spiritual teacher, and then they latched on to Lesley and she’s helped them a lot. So, getting some good feedback about Lesley lately. Also, I just want to pick up on one thing you said about attachments. And, you know, you’re obviously sitting in a nice home there. And you know, you’re not wearing a burlap sack or something. It’s, you know, it’s not like we have to be without things, but the orientation shifts such that we find that our primary source of fulfillment is within, it’s not with the outer things. And whether we have lots of outer things or not many outer things, one way or the other, it’s the inner fulfillment is our anchor. And if that is the case, then you’re naturally not overly attached to outer things, you don’t overly exalt on the acquisition of them or despair on the loss of them. It’s sort of like, you know, a multimillionaire who could gain or lose thousands in a day, and it wouldn’t really ruffle them one way or the other, because he’s got that foundation of wealth or in this case, inner fulfillment.

Cate: Yeah, I went through an experience where, the experience where I transcended death and suffering, was that I went into a visualization with Jesus, because I, at that particular time, I’d lost my job. So, it was just after the awakening over the next few months, and that’s what I had to go through. This sort of final thing of the overcoming the obstacle of death. And I couldn’t get a job and I had a mortgage and you know, costs and my guidance kept coming in that this is now a, this is a lesson in letting go. So, I was sitting, I went down to the local shops, and have I got time to tell this story?

Rick: Yeah, I even know the story. I listened to it this morning while I was cross-country skiing. You got a coffee, and you went into the back where there was a stream, and you go from there.

Cate: Yeah, so, I was literally like, full of fear. And I could afford this sort of takeaway coffee. Although, you know, my, it was just over the top fear about, you know, what I had and what I didn’t have, because I did have quite a bit there at home, but as in food in the cupboard. But so, I sat down on this little, it was like a little inlet from a river. And I dangled my feet over the side of this little inlet, and the water was only about one foot deep. And then I looked at it, and it was all murky and muddy. And I was in such turmoil, and I’m like, I really need your help, Jesus. Help me, I’m really scared that I’m gonna die. That I’m, you know, because my guidance was don’t ask anyone for any help. So, I was coming back to rely on this inner guide for everything, and plus a really big lesson. So, I close my eyes and I felt Jesus come into me, and he laid me back on the cross. And I could feel like this wood going onto my back. Actually, I can’t remember, there was two things he did for me, and I can’t remember which one came first. But I think it was actually lying in the gutter. So, let me talk about that. So, prior to me getting to that little place where I was looking at the water, I kept getting these images of me lying in the gutter as a homeless person. And that was the ego. And what I see, saw later was, it was like, the ego brings out the big guns, you know, like, this western little guy is like, you think you’re spiritually awake? Well, what about this, you know, and it’s like, this big thing arises in your mind, this big, scary thing. And he kept showing me like, if you keep going, if you’re going to live in this awakened mind, you’re going to end up in the gutter. So, I sat down, and I was like, I’m going to end up in the gutter, I’m just gonna, I’m not going to be able to do, I’m not going to be able to work, no one’s gonna want me. And so, he came in, and he actually laid me in the gutter outside. So, I saw in my mind, the gutter outside where I lived, and I laid down in it, and I could feel the cold concrete and then I sort of looked up, and then I just started laughing. And I realized that I could go out the front of my house, lie down in the gutter. And he said to me, people would just come along and say, hey, do you need some help? Now, do you need a sandwich? Do you need a bed? You know, I could just see this stream of people helping me. And I just and then, anyway, then I just started laughing. And I realized that that was just a big nothingness, there was no fear in that, it completely left my mind. And then he lied me back on the cross. And I could feel, you know, there’s some timber behind me. And I sort of put my hands out. And he said to me, this was what it was like for me. And all I could feel was this absolute deep peace, this purity, and this feeling of not being a body. And I had my hand out, it was like a nail poised to go in and he said, even if that nail went in, you wouldn’t feel anything, because you’re not this body, and you can’t die. And I know this sounds like probably to someone else, it just sounds like words. But that experience, I felt myself to not be a body, to be completely free. And when I woke up, when I came out of visualization, I looked down into the water and the water was crystal clear. There was all these little fish swimming around. And there was like all these sort of like little bottle, you know, how sometimes little tabs from the drinks, you know, little silver things.

Rick: Effervescence?

Cate: Yeah, it was more like little bits of silver were on the bottom.

Rick: Huh, sparkly things.

Cate: And the sun was shining off them.

Rick: Oh, tabs. You mean that you take off of a can, those little aluminum tabs.

Cate: Yeah, off a drinking can that was, I don’t know what they were, but I could see things. It was clear, literally a different picture. So, I’m thinking, how could I have seen murky, muddy water beforehand, and now I’m seeing something completely different. I’m seeing this most beautiful, all the little fish and all the little glitter things. And I’m like, well, that’s just, that’s a beautiful healing of my mind. And after that, I never concern myself with money. And prior to that, I’d spent my whole life worrying about money. Just every moment, I was always scared of being short of money. And it just left me in a moment. And I never have a thought about money. And I just, and I, you know, this traveling lighter and needing less, just need very little. Yeah, it’s very nice. It’s just so effortless to live. Live in this mind that has no worry.

Rick: Let’s talk about the Course in Miracles itself for a few minutes. Because not everyone is familiar with it, listening to this. And they might be, they might have some questions. So, as I understand it, there was this woman named Helen Schucman was it or something?

Cate: Schucman and Bill Thetford.

Rick: Right. And they were in New York City, I believe. And she was a psychologist or professor or something like that.

Cate: Research psychologist.

Rick: Psychologist. Yeah. And she, you can probably tell, just tell the story without my guessing at it. But this whole thing just started happening to her. She wasn’t even a Christian. She was Jewish. And this whole thing started coming to her, and go ahead and tell the story in brief.

Cate: Yeah. Well, I’m probably gonna get a few things wrong, because I’m not really up to speed with all of it. But as I understand it, she, her and Bill were like all of us in these working situations. And they weren’t getting along. And also, I’m guessing it’s not said but I’m guessing that they probably realized that how they were helping their clients was probably not really completely helping them. Because psychology only goes so far, right? So, he said, Bill said to Helen, there’s got to be a better way. And she said, Bill, I’m going to help you find this better way. And she started getting these, sort of having those dreams and like sayings and she sort of scroll, she saw a scroll in her mind, or she had a dream. And the voice said, if you go, if you open it this way, you see the past and if you open that way, you see the future. And in the middle, it just had ‘God is’ and she said no, I’m not going to open the scroll. And he said you’ve passed this test. So, he didn’t mean it was a test. But what it meant was just that she was really willing to help Bill find a way and that’s a little bit like us when we say I want a better way. Something comes in to answer that. It’s just like this divine, it just comes in answer it anyway. Jesus started working with Helen’s mind. And but, she was very, it seemed in what I’ve read and heard that she felt uncomfortable with it. But she really felt this deep feeling that it was her life’s work, that it was really important that she allow this book to come through her. But she was.

Rick: Was she skeptical that it was really Jesus, or did she feel? I mean, did she struggle with that at all? Or did she kind of accept that right away?

Cate: I think she would talk to Bill about it. And that’s why Bill was important. Because Bill said, just keep going. Let’s just see what comes through. So, he really helped her just say let’s just stick with it. And so, he would.

Rick: Would she write the stuff down or was she speaking it out? And it was just kind of, they were recording it or anything.

Cate: She wrote it in shorthand. She was very, she had her own shorthand.

Rick: She knew how to do shorthand.

Cate: And he she just heard the words, “This is a course in miracles, please take note.” And so, she wrote down in the in shorthand, and then she would go in to Bill and he would, they had a typewriter and she would read the shorthand notes to him, and he would type them up. And then they’d read them. She, while she was taking down the Course, Jesus was also getting her messages as about her relationship with Bill and, you know, different, just different things in her life, the people in her life. And so, he was sort of like, she was probably, her and Bill, were the first students of the Course.

Rick: Let me ask you a quick question here. I have friends whom I know, if they were to hear this conversation, they would say, Jesus, how do you know it’s Jesus? I mean, they’d just be a little skeptical that Jesus is kind of hanging around and intervening and communicating through somebody like this. So, you know, what would you say to somebody who has some doubts like that?

Cate: I would say, actually, just get a copy of the Course in Miracles, start reading a little bit, and you realize that this, whatever what’s coming through could not have come through anyone here.

Rick: Helen couldn’t have dreamed it up.

Cate: It’s impossible. There’s no way because what it is, Rick, because it actually got, I think that the title is iambic pentameter, which is that heartbeat, which was like Shakespeare, right. And the words, so, what they’re, when they’ve done studies on the Course’s text, that the lines of the pause the way the words are written, she couldn’t have known the last word when the first word came out of that sentence, because it’s like it finishes in a complete, you know, da-dum, da-dum, da-dum, which is like a heartbeat, or like a rhythm. So, the words have got a rhythm to them. And to write like that, and to write a whole book with that. It’s, the book was written, the book was like, already done. And it had to come through.

Rick: Yeah. And she was writing pretty fast, right? She wasn’t sitting there, and you know, the way writers do kind of agonizing over the sentences and restructuring them and all that. She was just taking it down in shorthand fast.

Cate: Yes, yeah. And she couldn’t change a word, she tried to, but then she realized it didn’t fit. So, she had to go back, and he corrected her a few times. And there’s a little bit of editing done, but the first few, I think it takes her a little bit to get into it. And then it really gets a rhythm. So, the way for people well, it’s okay to be skeptic. I was too. I think everyone, but I listened to, there’s a little audio of Helen Schucman, she’s been interviewed by someone. And she just says, I couldn’t do what the Course asked me to do. Even though she was one of the first students, she really struggled to actually believe what had come through her and apply it. So, it’s a practical application, she did her, she did actually do some of it, because she was very loving and kind. And she did extend that loving kindness to a lot of people. But she was also, she knew that her role was just to really bring the book through as a scribe. So, she also was shown that she’d been a scribe in a previous life. And that she, so she just had this opening. And she said, she saw the words, but you know, or heard the words, but I don’t know exactly how she heard them. But, I mean, I’ve also had things during the night, I’ve had words come across my mind, and I’ve had particular words in a sentence bolded. And then I’ve been given the whole understanding of that teaching. It would be something from the Course. So, I understand that we can have these, you know, she wasn’t really, I don’t know whether you’d call it a channel, or whatever. But she received this book, and she wrote it out. And for me, I just, after I’d started reading it for a while, I just came to see, this couldn’t have come from her. And there was no, it was all so beautiful. It was just like a big love poem. It was so gorgeous. And the thing about it is because it has teachings like there is no world, this world is an illusion, a lot of spiritual people put it down. They don’t like that. They want the world to be real, and they want to make a better life for themselves. So, a lot of people will, you know, there’s a few people who’ve put out videos saying, you know how I’ve dumped A Course in Miracles but it’s just this fear in our mind.

Rick: Vedanta says the same thing, basically.

Cate: Yes.

Rick: Advaita Vedanta.

Cate: The Course in Miracles is a pure non-dual teaching. It has no, that’s why it can’t, it’s just so hard to read. Because we’re reading with a dualistic mind, the egoic mind. And it just sounds like you might read three pages and get one sentence to start with, but you won’t, so you need persistence. You have to persist with it if you’re on that journey. And like I think you said the other day, when we were talking, you know, as you read that same spiritual book, you get to understand it more and more. So, you just, I had a little sticker beside my bed on my lamp, and it just said, never, never give up. And it was just like, no matter how bad my day was, I just would say, okay, tomorrow’s another day. I’ll just keep going. I’ll do my lesson. And I’ll do it to the best of my ability. So, it’s really about just putting one foot in front of the other, just keeping going. You’re gonna, on this spiritual journey, you’re just all over the shop a lot. You go through for a long period of time, you’re just up and down. But you know, it’s like Al-Anon used to have this lovely saying, “this too shall pass.” So, when you have doubt, the doubt will leave. And then you’ll have a period where there’s no doubt, and then doubt will come back. And then it’ll leave again. And that’s what he says. So, when you’ve got doubt, just hang in there.

Rick: Yeah, it’s like a train is going along, and it’s going through a tunnel, and then it’s out in the open, and then it’s going through a tunnel. And, you know, when it’s in the tunnel, it’s progressing just as much as when it’s not in a tunnel, you just don’t see the progress because it’s dark in there.

Cate: That’s a great analogy. The Course says that you can’t tell your advancements from your retreats, because a lot of the time we think we’re retreating. Like, you know, if someone had looked at me in the first six months of my spiritual journey where I cried. I used to cry into the dog, and you know, wipe my tears on the dog’s fur. And they would have thought, wow, Cate’s really retreating. But I knew it was advancing because there was just a lot of rubbish that was being cried out. And it was sort of like things were changing in my mind as I was crying. So, sometimes we think we’re going through a really difficult period like that. Had I have spoken to someone as I was walking to the cafe that day with the coffee, they’d think, aww Cate’s gone, you know, just gone so bad. But no, it was an advancement, because I used that part of that fear, I was ready to bring it up and say, hey, I want to be released from this fear of death and suffering.

Rick: Sure, and most people who have been on some kind of spiritual path can relate to what you’re saying, because they know that they go through phases, sometimes even for months on end, where a lot of stuff is being purged, you know. And you just have to sort of patiently go through that, and you’ll be a lot better off when the process is completed, or at least a phase of it is.

Cate: Yeah, the Course calls it, there’s a big thing about development of trust, it’s all about developing the trust in the inner guide that is helping you. And you don’t even have to, you can really develop it in you, but the Course is actually the inner guide’s words as well. So, if you feel like you can’t hear any messages, you know, apply the daily lesson or read something, and the truth just calms you down. So.

Rick: Are there also some verses in the Course where it talks about the value of really being ardent, and, you know, kind of almost intense with your search? Like, in the Yoga Sutras for instance, there’s a verse about how yogis who are, who have vehement intensity in terms of their determination, achieve the goal very quickly. Then in your case, you know, you kind of had that you

Cate: Yes.

Rick: every weekend was a, you know, you were full on for the whole weekend, focusing on this thing, and it bore fruit. Does it, are there some verses suggesting that in the Course itself?

Cate: Yeah, it says that towards the end, you sort of need a great deal of willingness. It does constantly sort of talk about willingness and readiness. But it also says that, you know, it can be just a slow journey, and for a lot of people it can be over many years. It doesn’t really talk about it like that, I don’t believe, but I think you can come to it that way, but you don’t have to. A lot of times I felt for myself, I was backed in a corner because I was really suffering so badly. And you know that I think you may have, really can relate to that, you know, when you’re really, it really is dire, you really feel like your life is so painful. I was sick. I had major issues with my daughter and I was, you know, my son, my relationship with him wasn’t well. And all my relationships had failed. So, I had nothing to grasp hold on to, you know, I couldn’t grab hold of anything. And I was not really enjoying my job as well. So, I think what happens is, you know, that can be a good thing, when you really, everything is stripped away. But after I had the awakening, I was shown a past life, two past lives. And I was sort of awakened in one of them. And another one I was, the first one was an Aboriginal male. I just remember being that Aboriginal man up on top of Australia. I went up there on a trip a few years ago, and I tried to find the area because I saw the area where I lived and I remember, I just had these scenes of sitting under this beautiful tree and just being so peaceful. And the second past life I saw was I was Italian nun, and I really loved God. So, I think with the Course it’s like they’re all dream lifetimes, right? But they can be helpful to get you to where you need to be. So, whether you believe in reincarnation or not, doesn’t really matter. It’s really just, is it helpful? Can it, just use whatever you can from those past lives to help you get back to, get back home? Don’t stay stuck in them. And they were helpful, that did help. It was helpful, but I don’t talk about them much.

Rick: Were you trying to remember those past lives? Or did they just come to you?

Cate: No. They just came in.

Rick: During a dream in sleep or during a meditative state or what?

Cate: During a meditation. I was just, yeah, I don’t particularly you know, do meditation, but I do sit in silence.

Rick: That’s meditation.

Cate: Sometimes a lot of the time, it’s just sort of like, just sitting. Yeah, just going walking or whatever. It just came into my awareness. And I saw, especially this Aboriginal elder, I was the elder of the tribe. And it’s so funny to have the memory of being a man, you know, when you’re a woman, but it felt, the connection was the same. It didn’t matter. I just call it man-me, like me as a man. But it was just like, it feels as real to me as this life. It just felt so beautiful. And I can, I remember he, sitting under this tree, and just sitting in this absolute beautiful peace and quiet. So, there’s a possibility that these lifetimes have been revealed to me that it’s about me being able to teach.

Rick: Yeah.

Cate: And I didn’t, maybe that’s why it didn’t take too long to undo what was there in my mind. Because I’d already had some sort of experiences.

Rick: Yeah, I definitely think there’s something to the idea of spiritual practice of some sort in a previous life or previous lives creating momentum, which just continues on in this life. And, you know, very often I interview people who had these amazing experiences as children, you know, they were seeing angels or whatever. And, you know, I always get the feeling past life, you know, this kid came in at a higher level of evolution, and they’re just picking up where they left off.

Cate: Yeah, it is, if you can access it, it’s lovely. I remember when I was younger going to church, not at a service, but just you know, when the church was really quiet, and just sitting there and looking at the statues and that, just that feeling of love. I think I started to experience that. But in our western society, it’s not really fostered, is it? I mean, my dad was an accountant. My mom was a housewife. I had no one in my life that had any spiritual bent at all. No one ever said anything, you know, growing up, there was six kids, and it was just all about get an education and get a good job. So, yeah, but I didn’t have any, you know, any mystical sort of experiences as a child, but I did have that feeling of when I looked at the, like the statue of Jesus or, and I remember also the statue of Mary. You know, there’s something that is remembering. So, we’re remembering that love. So, it’s always an experience of love, that divine love. And that’s really, so, I just also want to say something else as well.

Rick: Sure.

Cate:  The Course has got a little pamphlet, it’s called The Song of Prayer. And there’s a couple of little pamphlets that were added on later. And the Song of Prayer is around, it talks about this song that we’re in with God. And that’s where I got to after. And that’s what I was saying about the deepening and things opening up and further illumination. There was a period of, I don’t know how long, it’s sort of a bit hard to remember now as you get, you sort of leave it all. But I remember one day, I was just sitting quietly, and I just generally it’s when I’m going to sleep as well in bed. I just went into this song with God. And, it was like, we’re all there singing to God. And, it was like, you know, they sort of hear about these near-death experiences when people say the music was amazing, the sounds and voices that you just haven’t heard here. And I heard that for the first time. And it’s just so much gratitude and love. And it’s like, this whole energy is just full of gratitude and love. And then that’s coming in by God, but God’s not a person or a thing – it is the song. So, it’s like these songs being sung, and then we’re singing back. And to me, that’s the highest level of mind I’ve got to. I think to me, I don’t, can’t see anyone going past that, because that’s just, it’s just so beautific. But you couldn’t have a conversation and hold the intensity of it. And I remember Eckhart Tolle talking about, you know, when he’s on his own and quiet, it’s like the volume is turned up, you know, with this, you know, this love and this peace and serenity. And then when he, you know, gets with other people, it’s like it’s turned down, but it’s still on. And I remember thinking, yeah, that’s how I experienced it, too. That’s why I like to take those quiet times. Because you know, when you’re, you know, you’ve got your headphones on, you can rip the music up. It’s like you have no earphones on, but you’re turning up the intensity of that song. And one of the things I realized is that we’re all there. We’re all there as the voices but not as bodies. And we’re all there, not as individuals, but one, what he calls the one sonship. And it’s all singing to God and God singing and it’s like this creation, and then the words and the sounds we make and the love and the song that we sing is our creations and they sing. And those creations sing. And it’s just like this completely other thing that you come to. It’s hard to describe, but that’s what it’s like. And it’s like, we’re creating with this song. It’s just so beautiful. It’s so lovely.

Rick: You mentioned that you can’t imagine a higher state than that. And there’s actually a millennia-long debate in Indian philosophy between those who feel that all is one and those who feel like they want to maintain some kind of separation so that they can have an I thou relationship with God and enjoy being a devotee of God. And Shankara kind of resolved it. Shankara was the founder of Vedanta and a great non-dualist, but he was also a great devotee. And he kind of resolved it by saying the intellect imagines duality for the sake of devotion.

Cate: Yeah, yeah. To me, the devotion comes before the song. The devotion gets you into the song, but why would you want to be, in the song you’re one. You’re one in the song. To me, that’s, yeah. I just feel that’s it. I’m in the song. It’s just full of gratitude and love, and it’s so gorgeous. And it’s just, wow, there’s no way I want to enter into any judgment or have any attachments or thoughts because if I do, I lose all that. It goes, right? And it has gone before and I’m like right, what is it that’s taken me away from that to let it go and move back? Because why would you, you wouldn’t, once you get there, it’s literally sort of like a drug in a way because it’s so beautific you don’t want to lose it. It’s just so gorgeous in that time. And I just feel very honored to hold some groups and meditations and things and help others. I’ve had a couple of people sort of awaken through interaction with me, and that’s been so beautiful. I mean, they have to do it, but it’s so lovely as a teacher. So, I’m like a newbie, really, a newbie on the block, because I’m only sort of, you know, been around for a few years, and I have kept myself quiet because, you know, it’s always been a desire of mine to not be too popular. So, it was really to come on to this interview was like oh, you know, but I was guided – yes. I had guidance six months ago that, you know, there’d be a few things coming in, and I’d have a few more people knowing me. And then I had a friend Shannon Williams come in and ask, she felt guided to support me. Because, you know, I’m not very technical minded, I don’t have a lot of things set up. So, when you start getting a lot of people coming and wanting to talk, or join groups, there’s a lot more involved. And so.

Rick: You’re doing okay. Zoom isn’t that complicated. Do you have some kind of like email list if people go to your website so that they can get notified of Zoom events and things like that?

Cate: Yes. So, I have a website, which Shannon’s just fixed up in the last 24 hours. And it’s www.categrieves.com.

Rick: And I’ll be linking to it.

Cate: And I set that up so, it took me ages. So, and Shannon’s just come in and put a link and put some information in there. So, Shannon’s got a website called The Happy Learners. And that is a term from the Course where we become happy learners. And so, Shannon and I are going to do some retreats and things coming up in this year. So, it’s going to link into that website. And basically, the way I like to run it is that I’ve got a Zoom to Miracles Facebook group, it’s called Zoom to Miracles with Cate Grieves. And it means that if I take a break, I just put the post up on the Facebook group, and people know that something’s changing with the group. Because you really want to get everyone in one place so you can let them know. But Shannon’s going to be doing emails as well, because there’s a lot of people that aren’t on Facebook. So, I will have two ways.

Rick: Good. Well, all that stuff, make sure I have all the information straight, and I’ll put it up on your page on batgap.com so people can just follow those links. And, if you change something in the future, you know, just let me know, and I’ll change the text then. So, that, you know, it’ll be the proper information.

Cate: Yes. So, Shannon will let you know, and it’s so lovely to have her support. So, I just want to send out my gratitude to her. And gratitude to everyone in the group that, you know, because one of the things the Course says is as a teacher to not put your teacher on a pedestal, not to have awe around them, you know. So, I’m always saying to my group, do not put me on a pedestal because it will delay your realization of truth. Because you’ll have this idea that I’m somehow doing something that you can’t do. Right? But you can use my, that charge of willingness, so if I can impart anything I like to say you can do it. It does take a lot of willingness and determination and commitment, but you can do it and you are worth it.

Rick: Yeah, yeah putting teachers on pedestals gets teachers and students in trouble.

Cate: Yes, it does.

Rick: But, some questions have come in.

Cate: Oh, good.

Rick: I want to ask these questions before we run out of time. So, let me see here. I’m just gonna ask them in the order they came in and our topic will jump around a little bit, you know, but let’s just do that. So, hang on a second here. Okay. Here’s the first one. This is from Joy Summers in Philadelphia. She says, “I listened to your talk on healing the body with the mind from 2019. In it you lay out a practice for setting an intention with Holy Spirit to heal what is in pain or sick while you sleep. You do this for 30 days. You’re working on healing the ringing in your ear and some deafness. Did the practice work for you? Did the hearing issue get healed?”

Cate: The deafness, it’s funny cause that’s, people ask me this so it’s nice. The deafness is still there. The ringing is gone. But I’m still a little bit deaf in my right ear. But having said that, it doesn’t bother me. It’s, I mean, I’m still wearing glasses. So, yeah, so it did work. But yeah, not the deafness hasn’t gone. But I haven’t, the way I look at it is that my guidance was not to concern myself, because it’s not a big thing. It’s not, it’s really not a big deal. It doesn’t stop me. I don’t have any pain. And yeah, that’s so.

Rick: Okay.

Cate: Yeah, that’s my answer.

Rick: Sounds like tinnitus. I’m surprised I don’t have that. I used to be a rock and roll drummer, but for some reason I have good hearing, although my wife would question that. But, okay, here’s another question. David Reeves in Tennessee, “How do you give up grievances against Nazis without letting them take over the country? Let’s say you were in Europe in 1930s and the Nazis were advancing how, you know, how would A Course in Miracles person have dealt with that?”

Cate: Okay, so this is that, this is the answer to that is that if we can, you know, like Jesus says, love your enemy. Or he’s, so if we look at everyone as having fear in their mind, and us as miracle workers, it just means that we come from this divine love. And now that’s hard, because the ego is going to say that they’re wrong, and I’m right. And the Nazis are saying you’re wrong and they’re right. So, it’s the same thing. There’s no order of difficulty. It’s all the same fear-based thought system that everyone’s coming to. So, say we lived back then, and we’re in that situation, and we’re in that country. If you were coming from love, you changed your mind and you were coming from love and seeing the holiness, you might say, you were a Jew, and a Nazi came to your house, and you had no fear. And he opened the door, there might be something in you that the love that you felt, that holiness and you saw only innocence and guiltlessness, you could change it. And I’m just reminded of, you know, like, when Jesus was carrying the cross, and the soldier that hated him stuck a sword in his side. And then he saw the love in his eyes, and he dropped to his knees. We’re literally, that’s what we’re really about. We’re not to value this life. This life is not to be valued. What’s to be valued is that what we can do with the love that is in our mind. So, we let go of valuing whether we live or die, and we see the only value to this life is to offer the divine love to our brother. So, if our brother looks like a Nazi soldier, and he comes in, we might just say, you know, would you like a cup of tea, or something? And I know it sounds, it might sound very, and it’s not even to offer the tea. But that’s, why I said that is that I want to make it as if it’s something that we can’t, what happens is the ego says that, why should I love somebody that’s trying to kill me? But we’re going to look from what they call from above the battleground. And we’re going to see that that soldier is full of fear, he’s fearing us, and we’re fearing him. And that continues over and over and over. And it’s still going on, right? Different ways that fear is happening still with wars in this world. And so, to be the one Christ Mind in the world, or one of few, and to say to anybody that’s, you know, has got a gun or trying to hurt you or whatever. It’s saying I’m my brother. We are one. It doesn’t matter if you say anything, but it’s really your attitude. And to see His Holiness, no matter what a brother is doing or saying. Now, say, for example, somebody had done that back then. And maybe that soldier was completely changed in that moment by the Divine Love of someone that he met. And then he went on to say, what are we doing, you know, these are my holy brothers, I don’t want to kill them. And then he was able to affect others. And so, the miracle then starts to perpetuate the whole thing of what happened could have been completely different. Had there been one person in their right Christ mind, we don’t know. Right? So, all we can say is that, what am I doing? Let’s forget about Hitler and the Nazis and whoever’s in the country. I mean that, rather than saying, Nazis or this or that, reclassify it and just say, they’re in their fear mind, they fear me. And they fear something. And my job is to just see their holiness, and to see that they’re fearful just like me; I’m judging them, they’re judging me. The only way for that relationship to change is for me to change. I’m not waiting on him to change. I’m going to change myself. And maybe I could affect something that could have ramifications far beyond anything I could imagine. So, we each have to take that mantle, that light within us, and hold it. And so, Jesus is like that. Many sages that have gone before have shown us that by just coming from love, rather than fear, you could change the whole world. You could. So, that’s the answer.

Rick: You know, there’s a line in the Gita, which says you have control over action alone, never over its fruits. So, you know, all you can do is what you just described. And it may be that you have an influence, and the person has a change of heart, or it may be that you get carted off to the concentration camp. But the outcome of the action is not so much in your hands. It’s the, I mean, yeah, the outcome is not, it’s the action itself. And there were some very saintly people who died in concentration camps like Etty Hillesum, and others who were just like these, you know, really high souls, and but who perceived that horrible situation in a completely different light than most people were perceiving it. And I mean, Jesus himself as great as he was, he said, forgive them, Father, they know not what they do. But they went ahead and did it. And so, his presence was not sufficient to change the course of events, but he was surrendered to the outcome, whatever it may be, you know, as he said, in the garden of Gethsemane, let thy will be done.

Cate: Yeah. And His teaching was that he never defended himself.

Rick: Right.

Cate: They said to him, you know, who do you say you are, they say you are, say you’re this and he never justified, defended. He literally just went along, and just literally looked at everybody with this pure love. Even as he was dying, he was, this is the teaching, right? That, so if we get carted off to a concentration camp, or in a hotel in isolation or something like that, or quarantining or whatever you’re fearful around.

Rick: Which is really not on the same level as a concentration camp.

Cate: No, it’s not. Well, you know, there’s people that still feel that way.

Rick: Yeah, like Novak Djokovic.

Cate: From things I’ve read. Yeah, so, um, so our peace does not have to be disturbed no matter where we are. We can be looking like we’re in the most dire situations, and still have peace. And so, those saints, what you say it’s just somebody that’s got a clear mind connected to that oneness of infinite love. And so, the only thing that we can do in those lifetimes is anchor ourselves in that peace and love, and nothing outside of us can disturb that. So, we have that decision, we can decide for that. And that’s the only decision because otherwise we’re deciding with that ego mind that judges and compares and criticizes. So, we can get into a state that it doesn’t matter who comes and takes us, whether somebody pulls us aside and kills us. They can’t kill the true self. They might kill the body, but that’s not you. And that’s what the important distinction here, is that we’re identifying with a body. That’s not who we are. We are this love of God, the inner experience, and that is our true self. So, if you’re feeling yourself to be a body, yes, you’ll have fear about somebody doing something. That’s why the spiritual path is so important. Because you can get beyond all that. And you can be without fear, and you can be in peace.

Rick: Good. There’s another question. This is from Irma Oksanen in Thunder Bay, Canada, “How do you relate A Course in Miracles teaching with the 12 Steps?”

Cate: They’re very similar, but the way I look at it is that the Course in Miracles has got a lot more detail. But the 12 Steps is like coming to have a God of your understanding, surrendering, making amends. Now with the Course of Miracles, it doesn’t really ask you to make amends to anyone, but I did. So, I sat down with both my children, and I had a session with them. And I had a couple of sessions with my daughter and one with my son. I said, I want to air everything out, and get it all out on the table. Tell me anything that you feel I’ve done wrong as a mom, and let’s talk about it. So, it was sort of part of that, you don’t have to, but I wanted to have open communication and clear it all out, explain it all, and come to the end of the conversation where we’re just now having a relationship based on love. So, that’s sort of, in the 12 Steps it asks you to make amends. And then it says, I think the 11th step, having had a spiritual awakening, come in to do service. So, very similar to A Course in Miracles. A Course in Miracles is just a, it really gets you to work with the Holy Spirit and follow guidance. So, in a way, that’s sort of, I left the 12 Steps and moved more into the Course in Miracles because I liked that idea of guidance. And so, it says you can be guided all the time, so guided what to say. So, I’m just listening, what to say, getting, you know, it’s me, it’s my thoughts, but they’re given to me. So, the Course says you don’t have your own thoughts; you either have ego thoughts or holy spirit’s thoughts. There’s no you to have, there is no Cate’s thoughts where it, we’re listening to two thought systems. And we’re all doing it. So, no one’s different, everyone’s the same. That’s really important. These, once you get to these stages of realizing that your brother is just in fear and the Course says to look beyond that and see the call for love. So, when the Nazi soldier comes in, even though he might be yelling and screaming and got his rifle aimed at you, he’s really saying I’m, you know, shit scared of what’s going on. I’m scared of you, you might retaliate.

Rick: Scared of what they’ll do to me if I don’t do what I’m ordered to do.

Cate: Yeah. So, in that moment, the Course says just sort of listen in for what to say. So, you can’t tell anyone what you would do, except to say in any situation, just keep listening in and ask what would you have me say? But it always has to come from love. And love just leads you to, I mean, since I’ve been practicing this over the last sort of six or seven years being in this different way, it’s just amazing. And a lot of the time, I mean, it wouldn’t probably be in that situation with a Nazi with a gun. But with a lot of times when people are upset about something, I’ll just, like a joke comes through me, like something really lighthearted. And it’s like, it’s not through what we would call a spiritual teaching, but I don’t know. It’s like, you become like a little child, and you sort of see the funny side of things and you, that you say something lighthearted, and they laugh. And it’s gone. So, you know, that’s how fun this is.

Rick: I was just thinking of the Monty Python skit, ‘always look on the bright side of life.’

Cate: Yeah, yeah. You know, and, like I was, my husband and I we live together and we’re just living in this, both of us have these clear minds and you know, we do the voices for our dog. You know, we just, and he’s so funny. You know, I’ve always done them with, when I had my kids, I used to do invoices for their teddys and dolls and things. And so, we have so much fun, you know, and the dog is usually always grumpy. You know, is always complaining and irritable with us. And then one time we started calling, her name’s Lily, and we call her Lily Baba like she’s the guru. And we say, oh, you know, we just, we have a bit of fun. We send out spiritural teachings and things. You got to be lighthearted.

Rick: We do that too, but Irene’s the one who’s really good at the dog voices. I’m not, she has one for one dog and one for the other dog. She could’ve been one of those Hollywood voiceover people for cartoons and stuff.

Cate: Yeah, it’s so much fun.

Rick: Muppets.

Cate: I’m like that, Irene, too. And you do. And that’s the product, isn’t it? That’s the fruits.

Rick: Yeah.

Cate: It’s the lightheartedness. Because what else is there to do? We’re here in whether you call it a dream, or whatever you want to call it, we’ve got this lifetime. So, you might as well have it happy.

Rick: Don’t worry, be happy.

Cate: Exactly. But you do have to go through a period of undoing and relinquishment and all that sort of stuff and then it’s, and it is not easy. But you get to the end. And there is the lightheartedness at the end.

Rick: Yeah, and you see that with a lot of, you know, enlightened people that they’re just these, I mean, remember Anandamayi Ma that her very name means the bliss permeated mother. You know, and there was just, there’s a lot of joy and laughter and quite uproarious sometimes around these people that they just radiate it. So, obviously, they’re having a good time.

Cate: You do become like a little child, like, you know, you enjoy skipping, or you enjoy just sitting out with the flowers. And I just remember, you know, the first year after I sort of had the big shift, I was just fascinated by all the little insects and like flowers, and I was really looking at everything in so much more detail. And you do, I thought I’m becoming like a child again. And it’s lovely, because when you’re really busy, and you’re so, your mind, you know, it’s like that, you know, stop and smell the flowers. Well, it’s more about, it’s you’re stopping, and you’re really smelling the flower, and you’re really present with this thing, and then you’re present with the colors. And I started doing watercolor painting a couple of years ago. And I look at the sky a lot and sort of, how would I paint that and what colors and you know, it just, it ends up being so lovely. I would, you know, for anyone listening to this that is having angst in your life, all I can say is like, you know, Rick and I would like to join together to say that whatever path you take, if you feel drawn to it, just keep going. Just let all your grievances go as quickly as you can. Move into love. And, you know, come to be somebody in the world that is standing for something else. Be so vigilant, like be super vigilant, don’t get pulled out into the world into judgment. It’s so easy to go off track and be distracted and go into fear. Like, yeah, anyway, that’s, there is certainty of, you know, a clear mind, which, you know, they might call it enlightenment or awakening or whatever, and there’s nothing wrong with saying you’re awakened. Like, there’s this idea that to say, your mind is clear, or you’re awakened is like somehow that you’re not awakened. But you don’t even have to say it, you just move around. And you know, it’s just these open arms of love to everyone, that’s really what it is. And in the Course, it says enlightenment is just a recognition. It’s like a recognition of who you are. I’m this love, and I’m one with this love. You know, is, and even to say that it created me, it’s like, it is me. It’s not like the creator and me are separate it, I am it. I’m in this love, and it’s, I call it a big soup of love. So, we’re like in this. Yeah, that was the term I was using when I was awakening, I was just like, I just feel like everything’s love and it’s like a big soup of love because I make soup a lot, right?

Rick: That’s great. Okay, here’s another question for you. I’m not sure if this is Lipica or or Ipika, is it an L? Okay. Lipika Shankar from Atlanta. And her question is, “I understand that your journey and truth you found led you to great peace and joy. Practically speaking, how would it help a person who is going through the sudden loss of a loved one? How would that situation arrive at peace and understanding?”

Cate: Well, very, so, it’s not about denying your feelings. That’s not worth it. If you’re breathing and you’re upset because you’ve lost someone that you love, they no more grieve. That’s, Ken Wapnick was a great teacher of the Course. I listened to David Hoffmeister and Gary Renard, they were sort of my three main teachers. And Ken Wapnick just said be normal. So, allow yourself to grieve. But at a certain period, you just get quiet, and it depends where you are on your spiritual path, right? It really depends on how, what changes occurred in your mind. And so, the Course teaches that we are eternal, we’re not a body, we’re having many streaming lifetimes in a body. But it’s not who we are. So, that might help you. But I would just say, Holy, say the prayer, Holy Spirit, Jesus, look at this with me, help me, come into my mind, and look at whatever is upsetting me with me. And just get quiet, and ask for help. And that’s, and so be appropriate. And so, when we, as spiritual teachers, we’re around others that are upset about something, it’s to be appropriate. And one of the best teachings I had, I had a friend that was very depressed and anxious and was lying on a couch crying. And I went over, and I started to, you know, talk the spiritual teachings and she said, Cate, can you just rub my back? And I went, yeah. That’s it. Just rubbing someone’s back, that’s all you need do, just make them a cup of tea. Just be there, be there in silence. So, you know, this is, it’s the worst thing you can do sometimes is start saying, you know, you’re in your ego mind and whatever. It’s really, we need to be appropriate. And that was one of the things I was, I’ll sort of finish off about, you know, integration, coming back from that high place of mind, coming back, being appropriate. You know, really being what they call normal or appropriate and knowing. And that’s actually the Course says, just to listen, you’ll be given the words and so, you’ll know. But obviously, I wasn’t listening when I went over to see this friend. I was like, oh, I need to, you know, say something from the Course or, and I said to her, you’ve given me the best spiritual practice ever. And you know, now I just listen, I’m quiet. Sometimes I’m quiet.

Rick: Well, Lipika Shankar she must be Indian by, judging by that name, and she probably has read the Bhagavad Gita. I would recommend rereading the second chapter, there’s a lot of good verses in there about how nobody dies. And yeah, and also, I mean, I’ve interviewed a lot of people and read a lot of books by people who have had near death experiences. And whenever I read such books, or interview such people, for me, it really sort of thins the veil between, you know, this life and the eternity of life that is the reality of it. And, you know, there’s a verse in The Gita that comes to mind “you grieve for those who for whom there should be no grief, yet speak as do the wise, wise men grieve neither for the dead nor for the living”. And he goes on to explain that nobody dies. And that dying and being reborn is like changing your clothes, you know, putting on a fresh pair of clothes. So, that all may sound kind of philosophical, but I think there’s a reality behind it. And if we ponder that stuff, you know, put our attention on it, to some extent, it just becomes more real, or more, you know, more kind of more deeply understood. And I think that can help because if you feel that this wonderful person whom you loved has utterly ceased to exist, then I should think that would be a lot more grief inducing than to feel that well, their body kind of served its purpose, and now they’re somewhere, and they’ll continue to be somewhere, and their existence will continue and their evolution toward God will continue. I mean, that’s a much more kind and heartwarming perspective in my opinion than to think that someone has just been utterly obliterated.

Cate: Yes, yeah. And the Course in Miracles says the same thing. It’s very close to the Bhagavad Gita.

Rick: The Gita, yeah.

Cate: I’m not even sure how to pronounce it properly,

Rick: You did it.

Cate: because I haven’t really read it or studied it, but yeah. So, I think the start of the Bhagavad Gita is similar. A Course in Miracles says, “Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists. Herein lies the peace of God.”

Rick: It has the same verse. Yeah, the Gita says, “The unreal has no being, the real never ceases to be.” Exactly the same.

Cate: So, they’re really connected and so, yeah, we’re eternal. And so, yeah, after that initial grief it’s important to allow yourself to feel what this lady’s feeling. It depends how, you know, because you don’t want to become a robot. But the more advanced you get in your spiritual quest, like it says the wise men don’t grieve, it’s you know, you won’t grieve. But that was beautiful, what you said, Rick, it was really lovely. I felt like you had that answer for her. So, that’s nice.

Rick: Oh, thanks. I mean, last time I cried was a few years ago when my cat died. And of course, I know that the cat is going to move on as a soul and all that stuff. That’s my orientation. But I loved the cat, you know, and it was just a natural response. And it didn’t last very long. But I didn’t resist it or indulge in it one way or the other.

Cate: Yeah, yeah. And it’s funny, because when you cry, like Kevin’s dad died a few years ago, and I shed a few tears. And I didn’t last very long with it, but all I could feel was this real beautiful love coming up. And I just saw a memory of him. He sat beside me when I went to Canada, he sat beside me on the chair with a box of photos. And he was pulling out the photos and telling me about it. It’s just so beautiful that joining. And I just yeah, I just let the tears fall and then they moved away, and I know who he is, his true self. And I’d only met him once. So, I just think, you know, it’s just to allow things to move and take their shape, but it’s all based around love. So, like when your cat dies, like my dog’s getting older now. And I know, you know, she’s got some health issues. So, you know, I’ll probably shed some tears when she leaves, but it’ll be from love. It won’t be that I miss her, and I’m attached to her, it will just really be this thank you for this lifetime for being in my life. And she was a teacher to me for a while. Yes, she helped me with some spiritual teachings. So, she was really good.

Rick: There’s a nice analogy in Indian teaching, which is that as we evolve our consciousness and our physiology become more adaptable and more sort of flexible. And the analogy used is that initially in a rather low state, we’re like a stone and if you make a mark in the stone, it kind of just stays there. And later on, it’s we’re more like sand, you know, you can make an even deeper mark in the sand, deeper experience and, yet it doesn’t stay very long. Later on, it’s like water, you know, you can stick your whole arm in the water and it’s a deeper experience and yet it goes away even faster. Later on, it’s like air, you know, like a line in air. And I’ve spent a lot of time around Amma, the so-called Hugging Saint some people call her, and observed her closely. And someone will come up to her, you know, my husband is beating me, and tears will stream down her face. And then, you know, you’ll see her really commiserating, really feeling with that person. And then the next person will come up and something, she’ll be laughing uproariously about something that that person will say. So, she’s very much in the moment, and very much kind of fluid in accordance with the circumstances. And just a really kind of a beautiful example of that.

Cate: Yeah, that’s fantastic. And that’s, those demonstrations are really beautiful, because that’s where we’re all going to get to, you know, just being really helpful in that moment. So, we’re here just to serve and be helpful to others and connect and, you know, in whatever ways. I mean, that’s the thing. She doesn’t know the next person or what it’s gonna be, but she’s she just joins them in that. That’s beautiful.

Rick: Yeah. Here’s another question. This one’s from Michael Moran in Ireland, “Can you explain more about the pentameter in ACIM? Does this apply to the whole text?” Yeah, the iambic pentameter, okay. “Or every sentence, maybe some paragraphs or sentences only? Did Helen comment on this, or was she aware of this?”

Cate: I’m not aware. I’m sure she was aware of it, but I don’t believe she had any comment on it. But as far as I know, that, as you read it, you’ll notice that the words, you know, like in Shakespeare, words had to have, so as you read the words, so the words are put together in a way, and that’s a teaching that it’s got the da-dum, da-dum. So, yeah, all the words, and it ends there is like, there’s actually, maybe after we’ve finished this talk, we can, I can put something up on my, attached to this talk on your website that. I think I can find something that explains a little bit more about the iambic pentameter in the Course. So, if you want to go, you could actually search on Google for it. So, but there’s much more to it.

Rick: Well, if you want, you could either put a video up on your channel, and we could link to it, or you could make a little video and we could patch it into this at the end.

Cate: All right.

Rick: And people can, whichever you want to do.

Cate: Yeah, cause I think there’s some, I know, I’ve read something about it. And so, I’ll go and have a look. But there’s more information about the aesthetic. And it is beautiful. So, it is in most of the text. And I think it’s in the lessons, but there’s a section called the Manual for Teachers. And I think that’s written in more layman’s terms and easier to read, because you, to read the text is hard, because it’s like pretty much reading Shakespeare. And that’s why it’s difficult. You really have to keep reading it and sort of just shift your mind a little bit as in a lot of people who read the Course, they just say Holy Spirit, help me understand this. That’s like surrendering and opening your mind a little bit. And there’s, the words are meant to just really wash over you, right? Because the Course is about bringing in experiences not about understanding a theory, it’s probably the way the Bhagavad Gita is written. It’s, the verses are meant to help you have that experience or get an understanding. So, anyway, that’s, and I think that sort of, the beat is like music. It’s got a musical beat because it’s like da-dum, da-dum, da-dum, So, it’s like a song, a poem, a love song to you. And it’s just resonating in.

Rick: Have people made audiobook of it that you can listen to?

Cate: Yes, there is.

Rick: Or is it better to read it? Or does it matter?

Cate: Some people only like to listen to it. So, the Foundation of Inner Peace is the organization that puts out the Course, the first Course that came out because there’s a few versions. But that’s the, what we call the Foundation of Inner Peace, the FIP version. And I think you can buy an audio, used to get CDs, but I’m sure they’ve got something now where you can download it and get it onto your computer and listen to it. It’s really lovely to listen to.

Rick: Okay, great. Well, we’re just about out of time. Is there anything you want to say in conclusion to wrap it all up? Or that you should have said, and we didn’t get to it?

Cate: No. I feel, well, I was getting this title coming through when I first started to think about this talk. And it was: this need not be. So, those four words – this need not be – so, anytime if you’re having depression, anxiety, fear, feeling of guilt, anger, any emotion, there’s a, Jesus in the Course says this need not be. In other words, there’s help. Now, there’s, if you get the Course in Miracles, Chapter Four, Section Four is called This Need Not Be. And I was guided to do a talk on this chapter, which I’ve recorded and put up on my YouTube channel. So, for anyone that is listening to this talk and wants to hear a little bit more, that’s what’s come through. So, there should be the latest talk is This Need Not Be. And it’s just like a little helpful guide that you don’t have to spend your whole life taking medication for depression and anxiety, taking medication for illnesses, there is a way that you can become free of. Now, it’s nothing wrong with taking medication, I took antidepressants for about 14 months of my two-year journey. And then I felt to, I could slowly wean myself off them. So, take medication, nothing wrong with it. But you can come, if you work with these teachings or any spiritual path, they all end up at the same place. There’s just different ways of getting there. So, my analogy that I was shown was that we’re all walking up a mountain, and the top of the mountain there’s, we’re all there. And we’re looking out at this beautiful vista. But when we walk up, we’re all using different teachings different ways. Even if you tried to follow a teacher, you couldn’t step in the same steps that, the same footprint when he lifts his foot up, you can’t put your foot there, you can’t do your teacher’s journey. You have to own your own journey, and we all have what’s right for us. So, the best advice I can give to anyone listening is trust what’s given to you. If it’s not A Course in Miracles, trust that we’re all given the right book, the right teacher, and you might have various teachers, you might have to leave one and go to another and then leave them. But trust your journey. Don’t move just because someone else is using another practice, or another book or another teacher. Trust your own journey. Because your journey up the mountain is different, you’re gonna step on different blades of grass and use different resting places. And we all get there. And we already are there. That’s the truth. We’re already at the top. So, that’s a really important part because even people listening to me decide I have to ditch my teaching and go to the Course, just feel whether that’s right for you.

Rick: You could kind of, I mean, you could probably do the Course in addition to other stuff like for instance, if I wanted to do the Course I could do the meditation I already do and do the Course right?

Cate: You certainly could, yes. But eventually you end up just doing the Course because it’s literally, it’s got everything in it, you know. You’ll find Byron Katie’s work in there, I’ve found that. I’ve found all like Mooji’s talks. I found in self versus self-concept. It talks about the self with a capital S that you’ll find every spiritual teacher that’s taught, you’ll find sections of the Course that use that language. It really is such an amazing teaching.

Rick: Yeah, I’m glad you brought up this thing at the end about if you’re feeling really down and everything, there’s hope, because you kind of started the whole interview with that too, because that’s the state you were in. And as I was listening to you say that I, you know, I often feel that this, like. For instance, there have been more soldiers who, US soldiers, who have committed suicide than were actually killed in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. And there are so many people who are really suffering and feel like there’s no hope and life is meaningless and all that stuff. And you know, a lot of everything you’ve said today, I hope will give inspiration to such people. And I always feel like we’re like, we’re like lottery winners who are begging on the street, not realizing we’ve won the lottery. And there’s, the winning ticket is in our sock drawer or something like that. We just have to find it and cash it in. But we all have this tremendous reservoir of bliss within us and

Cate: Yes, So, true.

Rick: life just needs to be located. I just want to, there’s a fella named Max Bober from Northampton UK that Irene said has sent in several questions and they all center around this. He said, “Do you have any advice for someone who feels so bad that they can’t see any hope? What do you do when you are alone and you feel hopeless?” I think it’s probably been a long time since you felt hopeless, but what would you say to Max?

Cate: I just call to God. Just call for help. Literally get on your knees and call out ‘help me’ and just open your heart. Just have that little crack in your mind that you may not know everything. There might be something more. There just might be something more. Like just get, just really just say, ‘I don’t know, I don’t know how to be happy, lead me.’ So, you let go of trying to direct everything, and just open up and decide, bring in anything that I need to, that will be helpful for me. And as I said, we all have our own individual journey and different books and teachers and, or it could just come in without a book or a teacher. Who knows, but just open up, and you will get help. It’s really about surrendering to not knowing, that’s the most important part. If you can just say, look, I may not know, I’m, because what happens is we have these really strong beliefs that we think are true. And they may not be true. And so, the reason why we get depressed and anxious is because we’re stuck down like, it’s like a steel ball around our mind. And it’s like tightly held beliefs about the world, about ourselves, about everything. And we just have to open that up a little crack, and let the light in and just say, actually, maybe, what I believe and what I think there might be more. And just, that’s what I would do, because you can’t, no one can tell you the truth, you have to desire it. It really comes from this deep inner calling in your heart like that, like as I started off, for me, and same with Rick, and I’m sure every spiritual aspirant is like nothing’s working. So, rather than drinking or doing something that doesn’t get you to freedom, just open up and become willing to not know. Be in that not knowing mind, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe I don’t know, but I’m yet to know. So, in that state, you’ve just got this readiness to be taught. So, you have to become like a baby or a student, humble like the beginner. And if you can become like a little child and just say, ‘I don’t know, teach me, bring in something that’s going to help me. I’m open to it, because all what I’m doing now isn’t bringing me happiness.’ And it just means that you open up and believe me, something will come in. You can trust that.

Rick: Yeah. Yeah. Cate has alluded to my story a couple of times. I had sent her a thing that I had written a few years ago on the anniversary of my 50th anniversary of my having learned to meditate. But basically, I had been arrested for drugs twice, I dropped out of two high schools, I was, my mother was in a mental hospital, my father was an alcoholic, I was always getting kicked out of the house. And my life was really in a shambles. And I just had this kind of like, come-to-Jesus moment one night, where I realized that if I continued on like this, I was not going to live a very long life and not a very happy one. And so, I thought, I gotta change something. And so, I thought, that’s it, I’m gonna stop taking drugs, I’m going to learn to meditate and, you know, do my best to move in the opposite direction to what I had been going in. And sure enough, it worked. So, you know, and I shudder to think what might have happened if I hadn’t had that epiphany. But I guess, you know, you referred to Alcoholics Anonymous, and a lot of people hit rock bottom, and those, before being ready to enter such a program. And I think that’s what I had done, although I wasn’t, alcohol was my problem. But there’s so much more to life, you know, it can be so incredibly fulfilling and interesting and productive, and so on and so forth. One just has to find, you know, Jesus, we’re talking about Jesus a lot, he said, ‘seek and you shall find, knock and the door shall be opened.’ So, I really feel that if a person makes, like you said, get on your knees if you have to, if there’s a sincere intention to, you know, find the truth or some higher meaning in life, you’ll be heard, you know, you’ll get a response.

Cate: Yes, for sure and many, we’re all there. Like it says in the Course, we’re all going to get to that stage and not for the age of the person that’s written this question in, but it’s never too late. Diederik Wolsak, I think he found the Course when he was 72, and he’s helped so many people. So, never feel it’s too late, even if you’re 85, it’s never too late. Because even when you turn, it’s sort of like turn to God. But know that God is love. And that love loves you. And there’s a quiet center in you that is untouched by everything, all this anxiety and depression and upset, there’s this beautiful holy center that is waiting to expand and be in your mind and light it up and illuminate it with your true self and who you are. And I’d just like to bless you. And actually I’d just like to bless everyone, because that’s what I do, right? My teaching, I’ve been given this teaching about this Christ blessing. And that’s, I’ve been given it by Jesus, and it’s my thing to do. And I just want to share it with the person that’s written in and with everyone. So, I just want to say I love you, and I bless you, and I honor you, you are innocent, you are guiltless, you are seamless, you are the Divine Love of God, you are holy, you’re beautiful, your true self is divine. Amen. And that’s really it. And if you can feel any of those words hitting your heart, then I’m just happy to be a conduit of something that just gives you the message of your true self.

Rick: Well, that’s beautiful, Cate. That’s a good place for us to end it. I can’t improve upon that. So, I won’t say anything more. But I’ll just say that I’ll be putting up a page on BatGap about you and this interview. And it’ll have whatever links you want me to have on it to, you know, send people to your Facebook page, your website, your YouTube channel, and everything else. And so, you know, people can follow those links and get in touch, and I’m sure they’ll really enjoy and benefit from interacting with you in whatever way, you know, they can fit in.

Cate: Wonderful, thank you.

Rick: Thanks, Cate.

Cate: Thank you, Rick and thank you, Irene, for offering for this interview. It’s lovely, beautiful. Bless you, Rick.

Rick: You’re very much welcome. And thank you to all of you who have been listening or watching. And as you probably know, this is an ongoing series. So, go to batgap.com and explore the menus, sign up for the email notification thing if you want to subscribe to the YouTube channel. And, you know, we’ll keep them coming. There’s an Upcoming Interviews page where you can see what we’ve got scheduled. So, thanks a lot, and we’ll see you for the next one.

Cate: Thanks, everyone. Love you. Bye-bye.

Rick: Thanks, Cate. See you later. We’ll be in touch.