Rick Archer: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer. Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of conversations with spiritually Awakening people. For more information or to support our efforts, please go to bat det batgap.com Bat gap and at the end of the interview, we’ll be explaining more about what’s there. But my guest today is Barbara Marx Hubbard. Welcome, Barbara. Thank you. And I’ve known about Barbara for a long time. Most of the people watching this show probably know about Barbara. I’m gonna read a little bit of biographical information about her and then we’ll get into it. Barbara has been called the voice for conscious evolution of our time by Deepak Chopra, and is the subject of Neale Donald Walsch. His book, the mother of invention, a prolific author of seven books, visionary social innovator, and educator. She is the founder of the foundation for conscious evolution. Its purpose is to accelerate our conscious evolution. She’s the producer and narrator of the award winning documentary series entitled humanity ascending a new way through together as a global ambassador for the conscious evolution movement. She partnered with the shift network and formed a team to co produce the worldwide multimedia event entitled birth 2012. Co creating a planetary shift and time on December 22nd 2012. And it’s your birthday, isn’t it? Yeah. Great. And speaking of birthdays, your you’ll be 85 in December, right? Yes, I will. Okay, you’re an inspiration to all of us. I hope I’m half as sharp when I’m 85 As you are now. So she’s currently she’s developing online courses and with the shift network and I think there’s one starting this Tuesday, isn’t there?
Barbara Marx Hubbard: Yes. It’s called co creators rising and it’s a wonderful course of how do we become co creators, with people like Rihanna Eisler Neale Donald Walsch, and Charles Eisenstein and many brilliant people. Steven deinen.
Rick Archer: Great. Yeah. Well, during this interview, we’ll talk about some of the stuff that will be in that course. And this, this interview will probably be put online like Monday or Tuesday morning. And so it’s a little bit last minute for people. But if they let’s say Don’t watch it till Thursday, can they hop into the chorus a little late and then catch up with the one they missed?
Barbara Marx Hubbard: Sure they can? Yes, indeed. Okay, great.
Rick Archer: A little bit more about you in 1984, your name was placed in nomination for the vice presidency of the United States on the Democratic ticket calling for a peace room to scan for map connect and communicate what is working in America and the world. Listen to your your dress at the get the convention there. You also co chaired a number of Soviet American citizens summits introducing a new concept called sim con to foster synergetic convergence, synergistic convergence with opposing groups. And Barbara is the co founder of the Association for global New Thought and the World Future Society. In other words, you are a very prolific person, and have been for many, many decades. And, you know, I was, as I was listening to all these recordings in the last week, hours and hours of them, which I always do before interviews, have a verse from the Rigveda came to mind which goes something like yo Jakara, Tom rich come in today, which means he who is awake, the riches seek him out. And what that means what riches means is like the impulses of intelligence that are responsible for the emergence and government governance of the universe. And it’s sort of like if a person begins to wake up, those impulses of intelligence kind of said, hey, they say to each other, Hey, boys, we got a hot one here. Let’s give her some juice. And have your life has sort of been that story that having kind of awoken and chosen to play an evolutionary role. You stepped into a swift moving current and have received all sorts of wonderful support and beneficial influences from having made that choice, wouldn’t you say?
Barbara Marx Hubbard: It’s really very well put, it is a swift moving current that I think of as the consciousness force of evolution itself. When anyone says yes to a deep inner purpose, that you activate that consciousness force within you and then it turns you on, and does give you so much guidance, and so many insights. It’s true.
Rick Archer: Yeah, it’s a more, it’s almost like it’s just a matter of raising your hand and saying, Okay, I’m willing, you know, I’m taking the first step that’s obvious to me. Keep guiding me.
Barbara Marx Hubbard: It’s the ultimate volunteering.
Rick Archer: Yeah. So let’s talk about what that conscious force really is. Because I’m sure we’ll be alluding to it a lot during this interview, how would you, I mean, some people wouldn’t even acknowledge that there is some kind of conscious force in the universe. I mean, there’s a lot of people who think that the universe is a random occurrence, and a mechanistic thing. And the idea that there’s some kind of deep intelligence governing it doesn’t sit with them. So let’s kind of play around that concept for a bit to lay a foundation for this talk.
Barbara Marx Hubbard: Well, they’re in my understanding two aspects of the God the Creator, the source, one is eternal, one, infinite. Then out of that, for us, obviously, starting in the first second, first instance of the Big Bang, came brilliant creativity. So his first three minutes were designed such if the energy had been a bit faster, or a bit slower, life could not ever have formed. In other words, it was perfectly attuned. And if you study the formation of of matter, and you then go into the formation of life, and the discovery of the DNA and the complexity of every one of those stages of evolution, coming right up to you and me, what you see is we are an expression of the genius of evolution. We are an expression of the impulse of creation, internalized, and personified, and for the first time, possibly, activated by choice, not chance. As we become aware that we are participants in the process, I don’t think there’s a good word for God in evolutionary thinking, or even spirit, because they tend to connote an earlier phase of cosmology, they do not indicate that the process of creation for 13 point 8 billion years is inspired by intelligence. And for me, it’s not an external God manipulating. Nor is it even conceivable that all of this extremely brilliant higher order comes by accident, but that the universe itself is intelligent. Everything in it is intelligence. And the universe has direction and purpose toward higher consciousness, greater freedom, more complex order. And that’s a 13 point 8 billion year trend. So you don’t need to be a believer in something to notice, that the universe has been creating, and not only our Earth, but billions of other planets, and possibly other universes. So you, you, you fall down in awe and wonder of what we’re a part of, but the beauty is just as you say, it’s internalized in every one of us as our impulse to create, to evolve, to love and to be.
Rick Archer: And some of the greatest scientists like Einstein definitely used words like awe and wonder a lot. But it always kind of surprises me that pretty much all scientists and doctors and people who look very closely at that phenomenon of creation aren’t deeply spiritual people, because it’s staring them in the face, and they should be able to see it so much, clearly, more clearly than the rest of us. You know, they’re looking at these incredible phenomenon that so obviously, aren’t, like just little billiard balls happening to randomly collide with one another. You think that all just, you know, be walking around in a state of jaw drop all the time?
Barbara Marx Hubbard: Well, I think you know, what happened there, because particularly of the Catholic Church, is when the early scientists were criticized and almost destroyed by the church. There was a tendency starting way back in the early scientists, even though they were very spiritual, to avoid religion, and put religion over here and science over here so that the religious dogma did not interrupt them. Because that dogma was lethal. Yeah. And when science began to actually notice, how do things really grow, how do things really work? They didn’t get it out of revelation or the Bible. They got it out of nature. And I think what happened they went extreme in not wanting the invasion of various views of God. Where as the I would say, some of the most brilliant Scientists are seeing the entire universes. I think it was John Wheeler, who said it looks more like a thought than a thing. So there are scientists at the edge of their own discipline, particularly as we go into quantum physics that realize there’s hardly any matter at all, and that we are affecting what we observe. So it gets weirder and weirder. And we get deeper and deeper into the process.
Rick Archer: Yeah, well, it’s interesting, because religion, as you refer to it, is probably a fairly distorted and degraded form of what had originally been introduced by the founder of any particular legend, religion, after 1000, or even a few 100 years, there’s been a lot of garbling garbling of the message, you know. And so, then you have people cling to belief in things which they don’t or can’t actually experience. And then they become all rigid and adamant and fundamentalist about those beliefs. Whereas you find that people who are really deep in their experience are pretty easygoing about what people believe or don’t believe.
Barbara Marx Hubbard: This is very true. And I also think that if you are embodying the process of creation, and you are impelled to participate in it, you become a true participation, person within the story itself. So you don’t look at over here is the material universe, and over here is science, you experience yourself as a participant in the creative universe. And then that gives you a different vantage point than either being religious or science in its own forms. You are becoming a co creator with the process of creation, and you get to know more about it by knowing more about who you are.
Rick Archer: Yeah, so the word co creator use that a lot. And lelou Mesa was used when she introduced his or her interviews, you know, oh, my juicy, beautiful co creators. And it seems to be a go, you know, happening term these days, so, so do you from what you just explained, oops, dog is running into my wire, they’re good for what you just explained, I understand you to be saying that CO creator means that you’re kind of a conscious participant in the creative impulse that is governing the universe and helping to foster and enliven evolutionary tendencies, rather than being a sort of an unconscious thing that just kind of being knocked along without Is that what you mean by CO creator,
Barbara Marx Hubbard: it is, I mean, I think in the deepest sense, the creative impulse of the universe is within every one of us. And CO creator feels to me like I am creating with an impulse greater than myself, with a universal impulse that localizes in every person uniquely, but I don’t consider my impulse to be just personal. It feels is. And when I studied over the 13 point 8 billion years of evolution, and see there’s a direction in them to higher order, more complex systems, more greater awareness. And then I realized that’s the same tendency in me. I yearn for greater awareness, greater complexity, greater connectivity. And basically I saw that the direction of the universe and my own internal direction are one. Yeah, it’s a very wonderful insight. And that, yes, there have been billions of species are extinct, there had been five mass extinction extinctions. And they are discharged that call the process directed chance. So it’s not like it’s a robotic universe controlled entirely by an intelligent force. But it seems to be a free system directional. Where there’s a lot of experimentation, a lot of things that work and don’t work, including us. And therefore, I would say, you might, you might say, simply, God put freedom in the system. And as we gain ever greater power of Gods, we can blow up worlds, we can create worlds, we therefore have more freedom, to be able to be good. At this divine gift we’ve been given or really disastrous, in which we could destroy our life support system.
Rick Archer: I often think of the metaphor of a child growing up and it’s pretty much no freedom totally dependent on his parents. And then at a certain point, he becomes a teenager. And things start to get really wild, he might go off and start doing drugs or doing crazy things or whatever. But there’s this transition from total dependency to total ended. pendens as an adult. And in that transitionary period, it’s very much a period of experimentation and, you know, trial and error and, you know, breaking boundaries and so on.
Barbara Marx Hubbard: Yes, exactly. And so in that sense, we, we might be in sort of late adolescence, because we’ve gained huge power. And we can literally destroy our environment in our life support system. And that means we’ve entered the phase of conscious choice. Species before us never realized that they were becoming extinct, that they were doing it by their own behavior. We’re the first species to know that, there’s certain things we could do that could cause the extinction of our own life on this planet. So that is a wake up call, oh, I’m responsible here. And we have no experience at being responsible at this level. It’s new.
Rick Archer: Yeah. I’ve heard you say many times in various recordings that your first wake up call was when you were 15. And the atomic bombs are dropped on Japan. And you know, you sort of it woke this question, and you tell us what that question was?
Barbara Marx Hubbard: Well, the question was, what is the meaning of all this new power? Science, technology industry, the military? That’s good? How come we have all this capacity? We can use it to destroy our world, which we saw with the atomic bomb, like, can we use it? And what are we given it really, to evolve our world, and I thought I could find out that somebody knew, maybe the church knows, or the universities know. But nobody knew the meaning and direction of civilization. Right. And this was in the mid 40s, you know, right after the Second World War, and the atomic bomb, and then heading into the environmental set of problems. In the 60s and 70s, we suddenly became aware that, you know, we are overgrowing the womb of Earth, we can’t have so many babies, we can’t pollute, we can’t destroy all the things we thought were good to do, we now see, we’re just our destructive. So I really don’t hold this human species guilty. But rather, we’re growing up. And now that we know we have to have all new systems, because the top down models of government and the global corporations and organized religions are not designed for global cooperation.
Rick Archer: So to what extent do you feel that you have arrived at an answer to that question that that dawn, the new one, you were 15,
Barbara Marx Hubbard: I think I have a response anyway, that the meaning of our new power is really inherent in connecting those of us who want to express love, creativity and oneness in the novice fear or global brain of humanity, such that we can shift the consciousness, field of Earth from fear to love, towards co creativity, and eventually toward the birth of a universal humanity and a universal species. Until we become a galactic species, I think we’re being born as a universal humanity. And it’s a crisis of birth.
Rick Archer: Yeah. It seems to me, I mean, I mean, that the most of the great spiritual revivals that have taken place throughout history, Buddha, Jesus, and so on, those fellows were limited to, you know, the distance, they could walk around in their sandals, you know, in a lifetime, and, and then they passed away. And then, you know, in some cases, nothing was even written down until a couple 100 years after they died. And then the things got handed down and generally distorted pretty quickly, at least in this one interpretation. But what we’ve got now is, you know, you and I are talking to each other, I’m in Iowa, you’re in California, you will be doing this teleseminar with people all over the world. So seems to me this communications technology that we’ve got is, well, you continue the thought, you know where I’m going with this?
Barbara Marx Hubbard: Well, the communication technology is the planet has grown a new nervous system, particularly in the last 1012 years. With Facebook, the third largest nation in the world isn’t Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, 5 billion cell phones, internet, all of these teleseminar courses, we suddenly have a global linkage for humanity. And the thought here is that when it gets infused enough with a certain degree of consciousness, that the whole field changes. I use the analogy of a baby’s nervous system. It’s fair was born, it panics, it doesn’t know it can breathe, it doesn’t know it can nurse it’s hungry, all of that. And if its nervous system coordinates, and it’s able to breathe and nurse and move a bit, then it can relax, because it has the capacity to survive. I think the same is true for us. We don’t know if we have the capacity to survive, because suddenly we’ve hit a limit to our growth potential, the way we’ve been going. And we have to see that there is enough that we can make it through together, that we have the resources, technology and know how is Buckminster Fuller said, to make the world work, if we connect and cooperate, and we do not have enough, if we are separate and warring. That’s really simple.
Rick Archer: You’ve probably heard your friend Nassim Haramein, say that in a cubic centimeter of empty space at the level of a vacuum, there’s more potential energy than there is in the entire expressed manifest universe. So there’s like tremendous energy if you get right down to the essence of things, tremendous potential to endless resources.
Barbara Marx Hubbard: Well, that’s right. I mean, the zero point energy, which is what Nasim is speaking of is, is infinite. And there are devices that can tap into zero point energy, they haven’t gone to the marketplace yet. But as I understand it, they can and they will. So that’s going to be a complete and radical change of our social structures, and our economic system based on scarcity. So I think we’re preparing for either a devolution and destruction or evolution and quantum shift. And I think the question I’m asking is, what can we do now? Let’s say the next 510 years, when humanity is at this choice point, what can you and I do to to help us move toward a positive shift in time to save us from catastrophe? That’s the drama that’s going on right now.
Rick Archer: I read a quote recently from marshy, Mahesh Yogi whom I heard you quote a few times where he was saying that revival of spiritual revival takes place when both positivity and negativity have risen to a very high degree. Yeah, there’s this sort of contrast that takes place. And he said, the positivity wants to be wants to emerge. And the negativity actually wants to be relieved. You know, there are all these stories in like, the Vedic literature and all where some demon comes, and he’s terrorizing the earth, and then some avatar comes in eventually kills the demon. And the theory or the moral of the story is the avatars doing the demon a favor because he wanted to be relieved of that negative embodiment. And generally, in the stories, the demon actually gets enlightened when he’s killed by Krishna, Rama or whatever.
Barbara Marx Hubbard: Yes, yes. Yes. Well, I think that, you know, the amazing thing is, we are the first species on Earth to be aware of our response ability for our own evolution. And what gives me so much hope and courage is that the direction of evolution for billions of years is towards higher consciousness, greater freedom, in a way, much greater love. So if that really is true, and we say yes to the impulse within us and join to co create, I mean, I feel personally called to a great mission, I’ll say what I think it is. The mission is to say there’s a purpose in evolution towards ever greater consciousness, freedom and order. At every crisis point, there is the possibility of the destruction of the species, or the evolution of the species. My purpose is to offer an awareness that we’re at the Jump Point. And by joining together to create that which we yearn to express, we can make the shift in time. And in my foundation for conscious evolution, we’re developing educational processes for people to learn social synergy, co creation, self evolution toward a universal human. And we would like to develop a community of pioneering souls who are deeply attracted to what’s emerging. So this is not about trying to persuade people who are not attracted, or who don’t believe it. But there are millions of us who are attracted. And I think the most important community on this earth our pioneering, pioneering souls, who have a sense of what’s emerging, what’s creative, what’s good and want to do it and share it and connect. So the purpose is to bring In fourth, a community of pioneering souls to participate in the quantum shift,
Rick Archer: I think there is a pretty huge community actually. And it’s growing exponentially. And you know, a lot of it is loosely affiliated. In other words, this group over here may not have any official correlation with this group over here. But But and you know, in, some of them are more officially affiliated, but nonetheless, it’s like, they’re all these sort of expressions like a, like a big kind of a fertile field where all these plants are starting to spring up. And I don’t know if it’s important or not, for them all to be officially connected in some kind of, you know, manifest way, as long as everyone is doing their thing in their own in their own way.
Barbara Marx Hubbard: Well, I think there’s such a thing as social synergy, which is different than saying we all have to be connected in one entity. I’m not saying that at all. But here’s what I learned from studying how nature has gotten from greater disorder to higher order for billions of years. How did it get from entropy to more complex, Sintra P, from you know, instead of going down to disorder keeps going to higher order. And so the great student of this was Ilya Prigogine. And his study of dissipative structures. And here is one observation, I saw him speak once been contended you. When a system is dysfunctional, it uses more of its energy in handling its own dis functionalities, you can see it now. Military, we need more military, prisons, we need more prisons, we’re doing things that in order to solve a problem, we’re in a way making it worse. Meanwhile, in that same system, innovations, or mutations are cropping up everywhere, in health, education, economic science and technology. If you saw all those innovations, and began to see them as a CO, coherent expression of the next stage of evolution, in center be at some point, there’s a nonlinear exponential interaction of innovating elements, nonlinear, very fast, exponential, not additive, but one goes very fast exponential interaction of breakthroughs in health, education, economic science and technology, the arts, the media health, just imagine that by the nature of evolution connecting, because there’s a tendency for that which is rising to connect with other things that are arising, not in one organization, but the fact is, we’re part of one organism. Planet Earth is a living organism, the same factor that was able to coordinate you and me with 50 trillion cells each is at work, co ordinating. Us This is my faith statement. And that the breakthroughs and innovations and mutations and all these different fields are part of an overall pattern, or design, not controlled, but emergent. And I think one of the greatest things that I want to contribute, is a structure in which to connect, in which we people can connect what’s already created. And I call it a reel of co creation. And it literally is our turn on the spiral seen as a wheel, with every sector being filled with emergent, creative projects and solutions, until we see a pattern of the whole. And when we see that you’ll get something very different than the President of the United States, or the president of any country, because liberal democracy does not see the pattern of the whole.
Rick Archer: Interesting, well go continue. If you have more to say, go
Barbara Marx Hubbard: ahead. Well, I just want to say that in a lot of work I did in synergistic process, building large scale wheels in auditoriums and bringing people in to different sectors to say what they want to create what they need to create it what they want to give you shift the dynamics from win lose voting, to co creation, because nobody can succeed alone. No project can succeed without without help from other parts of the social body. You know, like your if you’re in education, well, you need communication, you need economics, you need environmental understanding. So actually, we’re all Part of a living system. This is already true. But we’re put in silos, by our universities and by our top down structures. But we’re not top down, really, we’re all connected. So see, I think there’s one more degree of awareness of this connectivity, through internet. And through some of the advanced means of internet, like there’s a new project called new map, and oh, map, which says that we’re all a hole on, we’re all little hole systems. And every hole system is connected to every other hole system, not by some external force, organizing us, but by the nature of evolution connecting us. And when I say that, I feel a sense of lightness and joy. Because I know every one of us is part of an incredibly intelligent process.
Rick Archer: Got every single sentence you speak is like, we could unpack that into a whole discussion we could, every single thing is so rich with with meaning and significance. Just a couple of quick thoughts, and then I’ll bounce it back to you. You’ve probably heard the notion of phase transition where water can be brought to a 211 degrees Fahrenheit or 99 degrees centigrade, and it looks like nothing much is happening. And all sudden, one more degree and it’s boiling.
Barbara Marx Hubbard: That’s such a good image. Yes, yeah, exactly.
Rick Archer: So that pertains to what you were saying about, you know, this kind of critical mass of development taking place. And then all of a sudden, things changed so much more quickly than we had imagined possible,
Barbara Marx Hubbard: right? That’s exactly what’s possible. And it can change either to greater chaos and destruction of our life support system. Or it can change to greater connectivity of what’s emergent and creative. In the same timeframe.
Rick Archer: Yeah, it’s interesting. Yeah,
Barbara Marx Hubbard: right now,
Rick Archer: I mean, yeah, I can think of an example, I mean, Archduke Ferdinand a shot. And next thing, you know, we have World War One, you know, and 30, or 40 million people are killed. And then, yeah, and no one saw it coming. And I’m sure we can think of positive examples where you know, the fall of the Berlin Wall, or whatever, where no one saw it coming. And all of a sudden, everything changes overnight.
Barbara Marx Hubbard: You know, I’m writing a re re editing a book I wrote in 1998. It’s called conscious evolution, awakening the power of our social potential. And it will be out in 2015. And I’m really pointing exactly that out that we live at this exact crossover point, between one phase of evolution and the next. And I’m calling for consciously connecting that which is creative, in social synergy, in small groups, and large and on internet, until we can go into a nice process of finding each other to connect to create. Now I call this social love. If I want to create something, and I find you who need what I want to give, and we start to join to create, like we’re doing right now, as a matter of fact, then we begin to enter the process of joining genius. And that’s my favorite concept of Supra sex. You know, sex is joining genes to have the baby Supra sex is joining genius. And what does joining genius do, it gives birth to the greater self in all the participants. And there’s a joy in Supra sex, like there’s a joy in sex. But since we have to have fewer children, and we’re living longer lives, Supra sex, co creativity is on the rise. And it’s particularly showing up in the life of women. Because if we live beyond 5060 7080, like me, we enter read Gen pause, we begin to have a pause in our own life cycle, from going down into sort of aging and impotence, to rising to creativity and expression. So when a woman falls in love with a deeper life purpose after 50, her body’s No, no longer producing eggs. In fact, she is the egg and who knows what her she I don’t know what her limits are. I don’t know what my limits are. Because as I approached 85 for December 22 2012, I realized I feel like I’m getting newer, not older, or younger. And I’m beginning to say aging is emerging, because we’re living in a world of radical change. So when your age Seeing and you are aware of your participation in the process of creation, you begin to get to be new. And so when people ask me how I feel, I said, Well, I feel new. How about you? And interestingly enough, a lot of people feel they’re at a threshold. Whatever age they’re at. Maybe you do.
Rick Archer: I’m always at a threshold. I mean, I was thinking about, as I was listening to recordings, I was thinking, Well, you know, barber says a lot of the same things over and over again, obviously, because she’s not going to make up a totally new thing every time somebody interviews or actually gives a talk. But there’s always a sense, as you’re saying these things, that it’s new in that moment for you, in other words, that you’re not getting bored with it. You know, it’s it’s ever fresh, ever exciting. And it’s, it’s unfolding and evolving and refining and becoming more subtle and nuanced as you go along.
Barbara Marx Hubbard: Well, you see, what’s really true is we’re all emerging. Yeah. So you’re never the same. Even from one moment to the next. And also, whomever I’m talking with whatever situation I’m in, obviously, there are very similar concepts. Sure. But I never feel it’s odd. That I would be simply repeating myself, even though I am is because of you being there. And me sort of considering who is going to be listening to this and having some intuitive feeling that I’m saying this for people I don’t know. And that who knows what effect it may have on them? Or on me or on you. I feel that newness every moment, in that sense.
Rick Archer: Yeah. And don’t you also find that as you continue to grow, a certain concept, which you might have been speaking about for 20 years, is a pretty you appreciate it so much more deeply than you did maybe 20 years ago, it continues to, you continue to kind of go deeper and deeper into the understanding of that thing, and the kind of intuitive experiential living of it.
Barbara Marx Hubbard: Well, it’s getting more truthful as it goes deeper into reality. And I feel, I mean, when I really got started, no, this was the 1960s with TR Desharnais, down Sri Aurobindo, and Buckminster Fuller, and few others. And it was like a tremendous epiphany. And I had never met anybody like me in Lakeville, Connecticut, none. Now, everywhere I go, there are people like me, whatever we want to call ourselves, pioneering souls, people sensitive to what’s emergent within themselves in the world, people are attracted to participate, people called from within. Now this community is radically accelerating, while the breakdowns are accelerating. So I’m also feeling the live drama of the moment, this is not like I have an opinion about God. You know, this is like, I’m a participant in the greatest drama on Earth, and so is everybody else. And so every statement anybody makes is affecting, were part of the play. And part of the play, right, the second,
Rick Archer: yeah, just to play off something you said a minute ago. I mean, a lot of people feel that I am my body, you know, and once the body starts to go downhill, they feel like, Oh, my life is over. It’s meaningless. There’s nothing really to look forward to anymore, and so on. But I think that, you know, many, many people listening to this, and you’re a beautiful example of it also have kind of gone beyond that stage of development, and they realize that progress and growth and exploration never sees, and the body is just a vehicle for that growth. But it’s not like, you know, if, if it’s getting older, or even if it dies, that is not the end of the game.
Barbara Marx Hubbard: Right? I think what I’m noticing while I’m still alive here is the concept of regeneration. And that regeneration seems to me to happen when you are activated to express more, to give more, to love more, to be more and you get turned on by the joy of co creation. And you get Supra sexually aroused, or vocationally aroused. Because you’re attracted to something and someone that gives you a sense of vitality. I can feel it in myself. The minute I lose what I would call my direction or my impulse of expression, I will feel exhausted. And I don’t care how long I live and I’m not even concerned about it. However, when I get turned on by the impulse and CO creating with others, I seem to have no fatigue. Yeah. So I’m saying to my body, okay body, you are Part II, I’m affecting you by everything I feel and intent. So I am going to ask you to regenerate as long as it’s necessary for me to co create. And when it isn’t, I’m very happy to go. But not until that’s what I tell my body.
Rick Archer: That’s great. Are you looking out there?
Barbara Marx Hubbard: Well, I got a very interesting little note on my computer that somebody’s trying to reach me. Okay.
Rick Archer: So yeah. And I heard you say on one recording that you don’t really want to be reincarnated. And you but you want to continue as a conscious being? And exactly what did you mean by that? Because when, in a way, it sounded to me like you were saying to an apple tree? Well, I want peaches, you know, because if reincarnation is the way the universe works, then maybe you don’t have any choice in that. But what do you what did you mean by that?
Barbara Marx Hubbard: Well, you know, the model that really inspired me is the life of Jesus, as contrasted, let’s say, to the Dalai Lama, or Buddhism, is that Jesus, after the crucifixion, appeared as a new person in a body, right? And said, you will do the work that I do and greater works. Now when I read that, I feel that my choice if you can have a metaphysical choice, about life beyond this life, my metaphysical choice is to have continuity of consciousness in new bodies, to participate in the evolution of the universe. I do not want to return to life on this earth. That’s why I don’t want to be reincarnated. I want to become evermore universal. And I’m a star child. I come from the universe. And I am here to help the planet give birth to itself as a universal humanity. And whether I have continuity of consciousness, through extended life, until eventually we make new bodies, you know, if you really study transhumanism, there’s a huge effort going on, to be able to go beyond the carbon based body. This is not the final version of bodies. All of Western culture was inspired by Jesus who came forth. He said, I’m going to die and rebuild this temple, his body, and whatever happened there. They thought he did it, particularly Mary Magdalene. And so I believe that we are going to be new beings in new bodies that will eventually be cosmic. And reincarnation is no way to go for that.
Rick Archer: Well, you may be right. I was sitting in a hall in New Delhi, in 1980, with marshy, Mahesh Yogi and they were talking about physical immortality. And he kind of stopped and scrunched up his eyes a little bit. And he said, you know, if we want to be immortal, there must be much better bodies than these in which to do it.
Barbara Marx Hubbard: I think he’s right, you can’t be immortal in this body. So trying to extend your lifespan up to a point is good. And the reason I think it’s good, is because there’s so many advances in life extension, scientifically, as well as the ways of with Nanotech and biotech, and quantum computing. And zero point energy, I wouldn’t be surprised for the younger ones who live, let’s say 50 to 100 years beyond where we are now, that life extension will be a new norm. The US will have you know, right now we give birth by choice. Which wasn’t possible before. Conscious conception conscious birth. I think we’re going to move into conscious dying and conscious life extension.
Rick Archer: Could be I was reading in one of Sam Harris’s books, he was saying that there may come a time when if you can’t run a marathon at the age of 500, you’d be considered severely handicapped.
Barbara Marx Hubbard: See, I think that’s a sort of limited view.
Rick Archer: Yeah, it’s
Barbara Marx Hubbard: not about trying to be a good athlete for long and long. I mean, I would like to extend our horizons here and say, I would like to be a cosmic being not be good at something that people here do. Well, I would like to be able, I mean, I volunteered to go up in this space shuttle years and years ago. Right now I’m volunteering to go up in the citizens space spacecraft that are beginning to like Virgin Galactic, others. I would like to go up and here’s what I’d like to do. Invite people on earth to join with Pete Well in space to create an Earth space mind linkage, that would create a field of consciousness that would empower millions of us on Earth. So I’m volunteering to do that. Cool. I’ve been taking you up on it. Yeah. Well, there’s some interests
Rick Archer: be great. I know John Glenn went up again, in the space shuttle not too long ago, five years ago, maybe. And, you know, got to experience that again.
Barbara Marx Hubbard: But what I’m really speaking of here now, it’s not the major shuttles or Yeah. It’s like these little brief flights, right? Those things they can like, yeah, right. You go up like in Virgin Galactic, they’re planning you, you will go up and you’ll have six minutes of weightlessness. And then you come down. Yeah. And they’re selling tickets on this. This is Richard Branson’s business, very expensive tickets, and they are all sold out many times over why people want to go up and experience this. And they’re going to be trained also to be a team so that they can speak of the of the purpose of it and what it means to humanity to become a universal species. See, this is a Knuth is it? You have to think about what’s new here.
Rick Archer: But you know, you’re saying, Well, I want to be a cosmic being. And I want to have the, I have the sense when you say that, that you you don’t want to be constrained by smallness, you know, you want to have a significant impact. And B is an even more potent catalyst for evolutionary change than you already have been. And, you know, I mean, if we look at it in one way you already are because we all are cosmic being already you know, we are that cosmic being which inhabits all bodies, the universal Purusha, it’s called. And yet we also have our individual expressions. But I think I also hear you saying that you would like your individual expression, to have greater territory of influence to be more cosmic in its range of capabilities,
Barbara Marx Hubbard: right here on Earth. But beyond that, if you just look at the sequence, from the first Australopithecus africanus, as the earliest shift from the animal to the pre human, and you imagine yourself as that you would have no idea. And then you get, let’s say, to be Homo erectus and Homo habilis and Homo Neanderthal and Homo sapiens, and Homo sapiens sapiens, we may be coming to the end of the phase of Homo sapiens sapiens. I think we are, I think the great beings like Buddha, and Jesus, and others were precursors of a new species. And that this new species I’m calling currently homo cocreator. It’s the type of human that feels this impulse emerging within them. So let’s play homo co creator or homo universalis. out for the next 500 years, you’re not going to just see a better athlete. You have to have imagination to expect the radical new.
Rick Archer: Yeah. So what would you say? Let’s say 500. You’re a futurist. 500 years from now, if if homo co creator is, is the norm and Homo sapiens sapiens is some kind of remnant minority that you find pockets of here and there? What would our world look like?
Barbara Marx Hubbard: Well, I think we will have, first of all gone way beyond the environmental crisis and learn to be cooperative and synergistic will preserve our environment, we will get over the major hurdles of poverty, and disease in many, many cases, I believe, we will have seen the transition from war, to actually using our high technologies to serve the earth and explore the universe. And when those high technologies go toward making with zero point, energy and anti gravity and exploration, I think they will assist us in moving beyond the carbon based lifecycle into what might be called the universal human lifecycle that is new. And I don’t know exactly what that’s going to be. But if we look past from Australopithecus africanus, to you and me, can you doubt that we will have ever more refined bodies? I can’t
Rick Archer: know. And, and, you know, given the timescale of things, you probably saw Carl’s rather Neil deGrasse Tyson’s Cosmos series, you know, yes, he had that calendar laid out that he was walking on, and, you know, showing the history of the universe and the all of pretty much all of recorded human history is in the last few minutes of December 31. So,
Barbara Marx Hubbard: we’re really you know, when you look at that, it looks like as far as Planet Earth goes we are at the very, very end of one phase and the minute beginning of the next phase, which intelligence and co creation and spiritual embodiment of the process that’s creating us without with be a co creator, is going to provide such enormous potential of ourselves as a universal humanity. Yeah.
Rick Archer: If you don’t mind tell us the story of the caterpillar and the butterfly.
Barbara Marx Hubbard: Well, it’s a wonderful story. But a caterpillar at a certain stage begins to manifest these little imaginal discs. And they are have a different genetic code. And the first thing that the capacity Caterpillar does is try to destroy them, because it looks foreign to them. And it’s very much like some of our leaders like Martin Luther King, and John F. Kennedy and Robert Kennedy and John Lennon or Gandhi, were destroyed, because they were different than the caterpillar social bodies they were in. But what happens is the imaginal, dis proliferate and become imaginal cells. In the body of the caterpillar, every single imaginal cell is coded with the part of but of a butterfly it is to build. It may it’s never seen a butterfly, but it’s coated with the antenna or the feet or the eyes or the legs. And this is a scientific understanding of the way the imaginal cells toward the end, they’re begin to assemble and cook and participate in building a new entity called the butterfly. And some at some very critical point, before it turns into mush, the metamorphosis occurs, and the pupa opens, and the wet wing butterfly appears very suddenly. And it has a little silver thread and it hangs itself from something to dry out. It’s a very, very dangerous time for the wet winged butterfly because it can’t fly. I think we are in metamorphosis, toward the west wing butterfly, which would be the co creative society with all our new capacities functioning as one living system. That’s what I think.
Rick Archer: But I think we’re still pretty much in the mush stage.
Barbara Marx Hubbard: Some of us are, some of us aren’t. So the point is, we went that here’s the point, there’s a time factor. And it may be that our species won’t make it, it will just turn to mush. Because you see, if only a few of us are making it, and we live at a time of the life support system being destroyed, then we will really all lose our chance. But if enough of us wake up to the fact that we are part of what’s new, and joined together, then we’ll be able to invite all the rest of them to come along or not. But it depends on how many of us want to say yes to this. That’s what it depends on?
Rick Archer: Well, fortunately, it seems like more and more saying yes. Hopefully it’s a sufficient number.
Barbara Marx Hubbard: I think so. We don’t we don’t know. Because you know what? We’re members of Generation One, nobody on earth has been through a high tech overpopulating polluting species towards the new we don’t have an elder in this. Yeah.
Rick Archer: You know how you were saying earlier that, you know, there have been all these apparent experiments throughout history where species have come and gone. And, you know, if you think about how populated the universe must be with probably trillions of inhabited planets, I don’t think it’s a done deal that they all go through the mass stage and become butterflies, you know, I think probably some fail. And some gates, some planets get hit by asteroids and blown to smithereens or the death star comes and gets them or whatever, you know, but I think we don’t need we can’t kind of rest on our laurels and feel like, Oh, I’m meditating. And this is just all gonna work out for the best. I think there needs to be as you as you exhibit a sense of motivation and urgency and determination to you know, make it happen.
Barbara Marx Hubbard: I also feel we’re not alone in the universe. Oh, no, not at all. And that probably the next stage would be shared contact, not through the government or the media or the Defense Department, but just through the people having shared experiences. I think we have them already on the inner plane. Yeah, millions of us are getting all kinds of guidance. But I can imagine joining in small groups and large and simply asking for direct contact, because I think we by being positive ourselves, who will attract that which is positive. Yeah. So I’m all for that.
Rick Archer: I think some are getting it like Steven Greer, and so on. Yes, he
Barbara Marx Hubbard: has. Yes. And I’d like to see how that could become a shared experience for enough.
Rick Archer: Yeah. And you know, this thing about not being alone in the universe. I mean, there’s the one thing of extraterrestrials you might come here and ships or something, but then or with whom we might communicate telepathically. But there’s also the thing of the all the subtle realms of creation which are teeming with life, and which many people have are awakening to capacity to perceive. And you know, I have friends who see angels and subtle beings and so on are around us all the time as commonly as you and I might see people at the mall. So and you want you mentioned wanting to become a cosmic being, you know, well, there are cosmic beings among us helping to guide our destiny. I know that may sound esoteric for some listeners, but I really feel like that’s the way creation is structured.
Barbara Marx Hubbard: I know I was a student of John Mack, who was the head of the department of psychiatry at Harvard. And he began to study abductees and said, it seemed like it was real, but a different level of reality. And he pointed out that there are different levels of physicality, like nature spirits, they have at Findhorn, you know, that, that people actually could get guidance, and then they took care of the vegetables, and they grew bigger than any other vegetables. So I believe all of these dimensions of reality are coming into openness. And we probably have different attunement to different levels. And so I think this is a very encouraging element. And we don’t need to relegate this to weirdness or, or craziness, but we need to be attuned to what feels authentic. Yeah. Because there’s a lot of extraneous and extreme views out there. And I always am a little bit cautious when somebody is channeling from Venus or absolute authority, what the channel has said, yeah, so I’m not saying it’s not true, but I really feel we all need to attune to what feels accurate to us, and not be under the power of any channel.
Rick Archer: I agree with you because I think a lot of that stuff. I was just chatting with a friend recently who was married to somebody who was doing channeling he’s not married to her anymore, but he felt like Yeah, well, some of it was right on but a lot of it. So obviously was a matter of her some subtle level of creativity in our own mind, but it just fabricating stuff.
Barbara Marx Hubbard: Exactly. So I think I’m gonna have to leave now. Okay, so I’m just enjoying this so much.
Rick Archer: Yeah, let me make a few concluding remarks. Okay. First of all, you have this course starting imminently. If people are interested in plugging into that, how can they do so?
Barbara Marx Hubbard: They go to evolve.org. Okay, that’s my website. And we’ll have it up there for the next few weeks. Because you can come in late. It’s fine. It starts September 16. But people come in for the next few weeks. Sure.
Rick Archer: And if someone’s watching this next year, or whatever, you’ll be doing other courses, so they can always plug it into one of those. Yes, yes. I hope so. Okay. And so some quick concluding remarks, I’ve been talking with Barbara Marx Hubbard, and you can find is devolved.org. The best place to find out more about you and yes, yes, yeah, springboard into other things. And this interview is one of an ongoing series about your number 250, by the way, oh. And so if you go to batgap.com, bat gap, you’ll find them all categorized and index in various ways. And you’ll see other things you can explore chat group and link to an audio podcast, a place to sign up to be notified by email, a donate button, and also as we continue to grow and build and diversify what we have to offer there. So thanks for listening or watching. Thank you very much, Barbara. I really enjoyed this and we’ll see everybody next time.
Barbara Marx Hubbard: Thank you so much. Bye bye bye.