Suresh Ramaswamy Transcript

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Suresh Ramaswamy Interview

Rick Archer: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer. Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of conversations with spiritually awakening people. I have done, I think this is number 650 that we’re doing today. And if you haven’t seen any of these before, and you’d like to check out previous ones, go to and look under the past interviews menu. This program is made possible through the support of appreciative listeners and viewers. So if you appreciate it and would like to help support it, there are PayPal buttons on the website and there’s a page which suggests alternatives to PayPal. My guest today is Suresh Ramaswamy. Suresh is a transformational teacher and visionary entrepreneur, passionate about igniting and catalyzing the transformation of humanity. He is the author of Just Be, Transform your Life and Live as Infinity. The book received many awards including the Nautilus Book Award and the International Soul-Bridge Body-Mind-Spirit Award. With his background as an electrical engineer and technology executive, Suresh brings an inspired yet pragmatic approach to elevating consciousness on our planet. Held in high regard by people around the world, Suresh’s light-filled presence and guidance awakens them to their innermost essence. Alright, welcome, Suresh.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Delighted to be here. Thank you, Rick.

Rick Archer: Good to have you. This is a nice book, very beautifully designed. And all these cute little illustrations in it. And I didn’t see, well, I did see them because I flipped through it to see them. But I also listened to the book, I converted it to audio so I can listen. But I read the whole thing and thoroughly enjoyed it. It has a lot of practical advice and a lot of techniques and so on. I imagine that what you expect people to do is just sort of pick out certain techniques that resonate with them and try those because you could make it a full-time job to do all of them every day.

Suresh Ramaswamy: That’s right. Yes, as you said, there’s there’s quite a few techniques. But there is a core technique that’s in the middle of the book, which I consider as you know, this is fundamental, this is the kind of this is the practice I’d like people to do on a daily basis. And it’s called the Awakening Infinite Radiance, or AIR for short. And that’s a practice that comprises of four techniques. So there’s like five minutes each technique, 20 minutes total. That’s what I recommend for daily basis. But then there’s numerous other techniques depending on what’s relevant for you. Like, if you’re dealing with an emotion you want to release, there is techniques for that, and so forth.

Rick Archer: So before we get into talking about those techniques, and all the many things, I think we’re going to talk about a lot of different things today, let’s learn a little bit about you. You don’t talk about yourself very much in the book. Although you have done a lot of interviews in which you do talk about yourself. But the only thing you really mentioned about yourself in the book is that at one point, you were doing six hour long meditations in the in the hills above San Diego, and you had this profound infusion of Light going on. But that would probably be getting ahead of the story. So you, I’ve heard you say you were born in India. So where would you like to start in terms of what’s significant to what we’re going to talk about today?

Suresh Ramaswamy: Okay! So we can we can, we can look at some of the highlights on my journey, starting with my early childhood, if we want to go there. So in general, I think, you know, it was a pretty ordinary growing up experience. But as I’ve been doing interviews, I’ve been going back and really thinking about my childhood. And sure enough, there are some interesting things that happened as I really look back, and so one one interesting thing I would say is probably this is pre school years, maybe I was four years or so. And I would wake up in the middle of the night, and I would see that everybody else is sleeping. And then I would initiate a lucid dream. And the lucid dream was always the same lucid dream. And the dream was not about characters or anything playing out but it was all about Light. So it was like these patterns of light, incredibly, brilliant, very aware and intelligent. And it’s like, I was moving through a stream of these light beams. And I would just keep doing that for I don’t know how long until I fell back asleep. And this was not a passive thing because I could interact with the light I could… there was subtle exchanges with the light. And much later, to give you a very concrete idea of what this looked like I saw the movie 2001 A Space Odyssey, classic science fiction movie. And towards the end of that movie, there is there is the spaceship is hurtling towards, I think one of the moons of Jupiter. And I think the character is Dave, you can see him going through some interdimensional space. It’s the coolest thing I’ve ever seen in a movie, where you can see these incredible colorful lights zipping by. And this goes on and on. And he’s just looking and you can tell that there is a physical thing, he’s sitting in a spaceship, you can kind of see the reflection off his helmet. And you can also see there something which is other dimensions. So it’s kind of going through interdimensional portal of some kind. And that, to me, captures the essence of my lucid dreams. So I find it interesting that I could every night this kept going on and on. And I would just do this, and I don’t think I talked much about it, because people would think oh yes you got a good imagination. And probably that’s what I would also think. That’s probably good imagination. But anyway…

Rick Archer: Sounds like you turned it on, you knew how to turn it on. At will.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Yeah, yeah.

Rick Archer: Some some little adjustment of your attention or something.

Suresh Ramaswamy: That’s right. It could just be like, I have an intention. And it would start, it’s like going back to the VCR and pressing, pressing play. So that was happening. I thought that was interesting and in some ways…

Rick Archer: Did you feel these lights were like angelic presences, or any such thing? were they…

Suresh Ramaswamy: I would say they were intelligent. But it was more not so much like specific beings, but a more general sort of intelligence. Rather than, you know, specific lights being specific beings. It just felt like a general thing. It would be pretty exciting. For me as obviously a little kid, it was endlessly entertaining. Never got boring. And I cannot say there was a specific message that came out of it, or a specific being or a such thing. In fact, this theme plays throughout my journey. It’s not like spectacular special things. It’s more very ordinary. And very, you could say it’s more like impersonal. It’s more impersonal.

Rick Archer: But it sounds like you are tuned into some subtler realm because subtler realms tend to be light filled. And somehow or you were able to just play around on a subtler level.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Yeah, it’s quite possible. It’s quite possible. And now that I look back on it, I feel like yeah, that’s certainly when I connect it with meditation experiences later on. I do feel like, yeah, this is the similar kind of higher dimensional stuff.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Interesting. Okay. So that was like four or five years old, right? And then what’s next?

Suresh Ramaswamy: Next was, I would pick maybe when I was six, or seven. And this’ll just to take a minute to explain it. One fine day, I stepped out into the backyard. And everything was crystal clear. Everything was crystal clear. That is the highlight of the thing. And that came with a tremendous feeling of bliss. That there was nothing happening, twas crystal clear. It was blissful. And of course, I felt like: it’s gonna be like this from now on. It was just like, like, I was, I was sure this would be it would be like this. And it… it wasn’t. Unfortunately, it faded away. But it was pretty cool. It was pretty cool. So that stands out to me. Again, these are very, I suspect, many of the viewers probably have had similar experiences. We’ve just forgotten them.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Some people critique it or criticize when people mention specific experiences because of teachings from people like Ramana, who would say, Well, you know, if it comes and goes, it’s not the reality. But I think these things are significant, and I also think that I’m always interested when young children have profound experiences because it suggests reincarnation, that they have come into this life with a certain amount of spiritual development under their belt, and they start experiencing things at a young age. And often people who do that are predisposed to get on a serious spiritual path a little bit later on and make significant progress.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Yeah, very true. Very true. I think. I think you’re absolutely right, the experiences. If we pay too much attention and emphasis, we can get a little bit sidetracked. But at the same time, they are providing us some clues as to what’s going on.

Rick Archer: Yeah. And there are going to be experiences aren’t there? I mean, if a person is on a spiritual path, they’re going to be all kinds of things. And, you know, so there’s nothing wrong with that. It’s just that it’s not all about those…

Suresh Ramaswamy: Yes.

Rick Archer: those transitory experiences is about something more deep and abiding.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Right, right. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So next point to jump would be my teenage years, I would say, and, and by the way, we don’t have to go through a blow by blow account throughout, we’re gonna start dropping…

Rick Archer: whatever you think is most significant.

Suresh Ramaswamy: So for me teenage years, much like many teenagers experience the teenage angst, I felt it but with a particular unique flavor to it. And that was, you could say, dismay, or despondency, that there wasn’t more to life than the usual stuff. You know… just doing well in school, get a good job, and all these kinds of things. To me, it was like, That is hardly satisfying. So and that was felt like, I felt a certain kind of sadness, it can’t be just this. And if it’s just this life is not looking too exciting to me. So fortunately, soon thereafter, I would say, perhaps when I was 16 or so, I stumbled across a series of books. And books, by the way, have been a huge part of my learning experience and growth experience. They really made a huge difference. And these were books by mystics. They were books by people like Swami Shivananda, Swami Vivekananda,  Parmahansa Yogananda, Paul Brunton. Paul Brunton was one of the interesting ones I stumbled across at my grandparents place. And his book called Search in Secret India, it’s a pretty popular book. And Paul Brunton is a British writer. He travels across India, he meets all these mystics, yogis, fakirs. And, of course, many of them are questionable. And the climax is he meets Ramana Maharishi in Tiruvanamalai. And when he does that, you know, he describes it beautifully. So you feel that connection. And to me, you feel that the vibratory aspect very strongly, because Ramana Maharshi was not a big talker, you know, he was he was really wanting to teach mostly through silence, unless somebody really pushed him and asked him a question. So Paul Brunton does a great job of showing what what transpires in the silence. And so to me that that really caught my attention. And fortunately, for me, my family, very open minded. So I could talk about these things. And my dad, I should say a little bit about my parents. So my dad was an engineer, too, like me. And so very linear, logical, analytical, and my mom was the opposite. Things she would say would defy logic. And over the years, I’ve actually come to appreciate that because I feel that some of the wisest things, they defy logic, you can’t hang on to logic too long. So so in any case, my parents were very open minded. And India, of course, there’s every corner as you’ve seen, there’s temples. There’s yogi’s, there’s mystics everywhere. And that’s so cool. I mean, I really when I look back, I feel like this quality of devotional connection with something bigger that you can’t even describe. That’s in the air. It’s everywhere. When I used to walk to school, all the shopkeepers would be opening their shops and everybody lights this incense and the incense, you know, is the beautiful fragrances wafting into the streets and I’m walking to school. It’s like you’re going to a temple, you know, these kinds of things were every day,

Rick Archer: right yeah, the first time I went to India, it came out on the sidewalk of Indira Gandhi Airport in New Delhi. It was like, Ah, this feeling, you know, even though it’s, you know, taxis and beggars and, you know, kind of crazy scene, but there’s this underlying feeling. Yeah. My experience in India that hits you even in a, in a city much more profound in the Himalayas or in Tera, Vaada light or someplace like that?

Suresh Ramaswamy: Yes, yes. And I was growing up in a big city, you know, most of my education was in Mumbai, which was a big, crowded metropolitan city. So I was walking, you know, dodging cars and all kinds of stuff. That was just, that is just how it was. Did you

Rick Archer: ever go through a phase where you thought, Okay, I want to get serious about spirituality. I’m gonna run away to the Himalayas or I’m gonna join an ashram or did you ever go through that?

Suresh Ramaswamy: Well, it was not set that extreme. I always felt like you can find it right here. So I did go to a bunch of ashrams actually with my parents, because near Bombay, there is a Nithyananda who’s mukta Nadis. Guru Dinesh was a great Ganesh Puri, exactly, on the outskirts of Mumbai. So that his somebody’s there Nithyananda is and so going there, there’s heartstrings there at these kinds of things. I did go to the Himalayas, I did go to Kedar not where there’s additional criterias Samadhi, which is pretty cool. I did go to Tijuana, Malay again, with my parents, they were on my gang, let’s go. Let’s check it out. That’s great. I did go to raunchy, which is apartments yogena. And this Ashram is there. So all these were part of the deal. And even on an average week, if there was some wise teachers passing through the city giving Evening Talks on Bhagavad Gita, my dad and I would go off in the evening, six o’clock, seven o’clock, catch the local train, attend these talks. And it would be really cool. I mean, I would enjoy that so much. In fact, I remember, even now, conversations with my dad on the way back like, that would be terms like from a horse from the Gita, you know, one who can see action, inaction, and inaction in action. I call him a human. So we will talk about what does it mean to see action and inaction and these kinds of things. So I just enjoyed this kind of exploration, but it wasn’t any extreme thing that I wanted to, there was nowhere to run to, as far as I’m concerned. It was all right there. And all of these great beings, they said the same thing. They said, this is just stuff, reading is not good enough, you got to meditate. You got to find it out on your own. And so, so I started my sort of feeble attempts at meditation, I would just sit and really not be meditating just be sitting mostly. But it was still an attempt. I think it’s still an attempt. So I still count that as some earnestness and my seeking.

Rick Archer: It didn’t try to get Mantra Deeksha from somebody or anything.

Suresh Ramaswamy: No, I didn’t. In fact, in my entire life, I’ve never found a teacher who’s still in their body, who I felt, this is my teacher. Never, there’s lots of people I really have a lot of respect for. But I haven’t had a teacher, per se, in the body, I have always felt this connection with light. And infinity, as I call it, that I see as my true teacher, and who’s presenting me with the right resources at the right time. And that’s how it’s been. So this continued on, and I would say I studied engineering, and then I came to the US to go to grad school. So I came to California at that point, actually. And I was starting to feel like, I’m just reading stuff, I’m not making any real progress. And at this rate, nothing’s going to happen. So I would try harder to meditate every day. But at the end of the day, I would say it’s it really like 15 minutes, 20 minutes kind of thing, which I felt like it’s not moving the needle, it’s not doing anything. So my solution to that was, I’ve got to find intensive retreats, and they’re gonna be tough. But that’s what I got to do. So that’s what I started doing. I started looking up. At that time, there would be these catalogs with all the retreats in the country. I mean, the Internet was not a big thing at the time.

Rick Archer: But yeah, are we talking about now 90 sometime? This is would be

Suresh Ramaswamy: in Yeah, it would be 90. I would say yeah. Early 90s or late 80s. Early 90s.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Hard to find things in those days. Yes.

Suresh Ramaswamy: So there will be books like rom das his book that would be like a cat there would be Like a index of all the meditation centers in the country, right stuff like that, that would be. So you actually call these people up and all kinds of things. So anyway, I started finding that the some of the best retreats were these Buddhist retreats. And I really started enjoying Buddhism because I felt like it was very getting down to the point, no nonsense. And let’s do the work kind of thing, not sit and chitchat. So I started going for these like week long retreats, 10 day retreats. And it was brutal. Because, man, you know, some of these Zen retreats, you start at 3am. And I was like, I’m not a morning person. At 3am, you wake up and you directly go to the meditation hall, there’s not you don’t even wash your face, you go to the meditation hall, and you keep going, short breaks for, you know, breakfast, lunch, and so on. This was like, it was, it was terrible, it was terrible. But I felt this is what I needed. This is what I needed. And it was very humbling. Because after all those hours, I felt like a loser because I felt like, I could see all my stuff, including all the things, I would rather think I don’t have tendencies for all these desires, all these tendencies to avoid work, you know, sloth, torpor, anger, temptation, you name it, all these things are showing up. And so I felt like I’ve got a lot of work to do. But it was, I think the insight that came out of it was, yeah, all these are within you, but you don’t have it’s not you. It’s just all the stuff is there within you. So there was some inkling of that. And so I’m going to basically, this was many years of retreats, and it starts sticking, because you have transcendental experiences a little bit here, a little bit there. And then you start saying, Okay, I’m still not there. But at least I have some idea where I’m going. And that helps fuel your daily practice. So my daily practice started getting more serious. So let me pause here for a second and see, if you have any questions.

Rick Archer: Well, it’s going well, here, I did have a look around, I want to talk about that good diversity brought up because I really liked that one, too. But that would be we’ll get to it. And I admire your what’s the word, your enthusiasm and endurance, I don’t know, if I would have been able to do things like I mean, I was on long courses, you know, six months at a time, many hours of meditation a day, but I didn’t have to just stare at a wall. And you know, those it was the it was a kind of meditation that’s very gratifying from day one, often, and not difficult and doesn’t involve concentration or control. So but you know, people who could do long Zen retreats like that, got to hand it to him. And also, I also wanted to comment earlier that, you know, I think it’s great that your teenage angst was immediately turned to spiritual directions, because you know, most teenagers, they become rebellious, they do drugs, they do all kinds of crazy, self destructive things, because they’re feeling that dissatisfaction, but they just don’t know how to channel it constructively. So it’s good, good that you had the parents you did and the culture you did to, you know, bypass all of that self destructiveness that you would have had to spend years repairing. Was my experience.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Yes, I was definitely very fortunate and very blessed. And just so many ways. There’s still a lot of work ahead of me, though. So I did keep pursuing that. And I’m gonna jump decades now, because this is really just kept going on and on. And if you were to ask me during this decade, is anything going on? You feel like you’re growing and developing and you know, getting enlightened? The answer would be not at all. Nothing’s going on. That would be my answer. I don’t think they would

Rick Archer: have been able to stick with it if nothing was going on. But something was going on beneath the surface that kept you going, I think. Thank you.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Yeah. Yes, I think So in retrospect was pretty subtle. But my honest answer still would have been nothing’s going on. That’s sort of like because I was, you know, read all these books about how incredible experiences people are having. And I was, I totally wasn’t, it is absolutely dull and boring. So you No, it’s continued on. And so I think about a decade or decade and a half later, I started doing longer meditations more regularly. And things started changing a lot. Even though I, of course, I had done longer meditations and retreats, now I started doing as a routine. And I think I’d built up something because I could meditate six hours. And it was enjoyable. It wasn’t like, like those early Zen retreats where I was basically counting the days and times when it’ll be over. It certainly wasn’t like that. Six hours would just go by. And in those six hours, there would be like, less than a minute of something, which was, which was now pretty remarkable. So this after, I would say, a couple of decades, that would be essentially, it’s like you’re in a lightning storm and outdoors, and you saw the lightning strike. I mean, it’s undeniable. So you just see that, and then you are part of that lightning, and the lightning, the light is so powerful, you are no longer outside of that light, the light takes you in. And it’s also initially intolerable. It felt like that. It felt like, whoa, stop it. It’s, it’s too much. And of course, after that, I would be like, Why did I do that? But that would be my knee jerk reaction. It was too much.

Rick Archer: Let me ask you a question here. At what stage of the game, did you get married, start having children was that in the midst of all this business that you’ve described?

Suresh Ramaswamy: Yeah. So I would say, in my late 20s, was I when I got married. And in my 30s, mid 30s, was when we had children. So so that that all that stuff, you know, household or lifestyle, and ordinary, at first a corporate job. And then entrepreneur venture, they all continued on. So they were pretty look pretty ordinary, nothing spectacular, but it was it was all going on in parallel.

Rick Archer: And obviously, your wife, your wife was cool with your spiritual pursuits. And

Suresh Ramaswamy: she was. So when we, when we first met, and we were still talking about each other’s interests, I was very clear. I said, on top of my list is this thing, this is my like, I’m crazy about spirituality. And I don’t expect you to be but I want you to be totally comfortable with this. Because that’s part of my day to day thing. And she was totally cool about it. And she was also had religious inclinations, actually pretty strong. But still, spirituality was a little different, like sitting and meditating. That’s a little different. But she was quite fine with it. So thankfully, I could do my stuff. And mostly, she would leave me alone, because she had her own stuff to do. But to complete that story, much later, maybe say a decade after we were married, she started getting really interested in the spiritual stuff. And whether it’s osmosis or whatever, I don’t know. But she she really got seriously into meditation. And we couldn’t stop talking about these things, because it’s endlessly fascinating topic. So many of our dinner conversations, if I were to summarize it, it’s always about two things. One is our children. And second, is about spiritual topics. It’s just fascinating. Both these topics for us. Yeah, so

Rick Archer: that’s great. We never had children. But I’ve definitely been a spiritual fanatic for a long time. And Irene has to I mean, that’s how we met. Yes, over in Switzerland, the headquarters of the TM movement back in the mid 70s. But in any case, I mean, I think once you really get how profound spirituality is. And I guess at some point, it dawned upon me that, in fact, I can remember clearly I was driving down a certain Road in Westport, Connecticut, and some guy in the back of the car was reading from Timothy Leary and Richard Albert’s translation of the Tibetan Book of the Dead and they were talking about Enlightenment is like going off in the head of the Enlightenment. Yeah, that’s what you’re supposed to do. And that’s why we’re here. But once you really get bitten by that bug, it’s hard to forget, fortunately. Yeah.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Yeah. I mean, it eclipses everything. I mean, I think everything else is so pale. Once you understand what we’re talking about here. You can’t stop

Rick Archer: and we’re not talking about escapism. Obviously your your life is an example of that, then we’re really talking about something that will enhance life if if you go about it properly, which which is important to emphasize, because some people do become dysfunctional or withdrawn or get into spiritual bypassing and all that.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Absolutely. And those are great point, because there’s can be a tendency to say, life is bogging me down, you know, this livelihood stuff is just like not helping my spiritual growth. So I’m going to put myself in an environment, whatever that is. And just stick to that, because that’s what’s important. And, you know, there have been people, of course, have gone off into the caves for all their lifetime. And that kind of thing has its place. However, as long as we realize that’s not, that’s not the full story. Because the integration, which comes is critical, it’s critical. So in fact, you know, there’s many styles of development, you know, you can go off 10 years, and live in the caves. And what you’re doing in the cave is mostly transcendence. You’re just transcending, transcending, transcending, but you have not done enough integration. So there’s many uncooked aspects of your being, that are still sitting there waiting to get cooked, waiting to be brought into the light. And so you’ll have to do that at some point. So if you come back to the marketplace, 10 years later, there’s a lot waiting for you a lot of integration. And that’s important. So I think the good news for people who are living in the world is you can do this much more in a balanced and holistic way throughout the journey. So you transcend a little bit, integrate that right away, transcend more integrated right away, so there isn’t a backlog that builds up and that can be pretty nasty.

Rick Archer: Yeah, somehow, I’m coming up with images of taking a mouthful of food that’s much too big to chew and swallow, you just have to take it one bite at a time. And there’s that verse in The Gita, which is something like, you know, he who, who sits denying the experience of the objects of sense and yet dwelling upon them, in his mind is said to be a hypocrite. So you can sit in a cave, thinking about, you know, hamburgers, and rock and roll or whatever, whatever your your Samskaras bring up, and, you know, struggling with that. And, and then there could be somebody in the, in the, in a busy life in the marketplace, you know, engaging all kinds of responsibilities that’s actually much less attached to the world.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Exactly, exactly. I mean, I think when actually one is fully cooked, you actually don’t stick out it really, you’re so well integrated, you kind of blend into what looks like pretty plain. And I think this understanding is slowly starting to develop. And thanks to people like Rick, because you’ve talked to so many people who’ve had so many unique journeys, that each of this is a each of these is a great data point, that says it could look like this too. And like this, too, and like this, too. And when you start averaging it out and sprinkle Rick’s wisdom on it, because every interview, Rick has got so much wisdom to bring, you start seeing no, it’s it starts actually this is coming forth, that there is a certain ordinary ness to the awakening, it need not, you can get there without a lot of fuss, without a lot of drama. And it can be quite beautiful, in a very subtle way.

Rick Archer: So that was one of the main motivations for starting this show, was that, you know, I live in a town where several 1000 People have been meditating for decades, and people were having genuine spiritual awakenings and, and you know, significant things, not just flashy experience here and there, but something profound and abiding. And they would mention it to their friends. And then friends would say, Oh, come on, you know, you’re just an ordinary guy. And you know, you don’t float three feet off the ground, you know, you’re not like st so and so. And so they’d shut up about it, because they didn’t want to like create waves. But so I thought, well, you know, people really need to see that their peers are having these kinds of awakenings. And then they too will be inspired. Because, you know, some of these other people were thinking, Well, nothing’s ever gonna happen for me, and I’ll just keep meditating all my life, but I don’t expect anything. And I thought, well, that’s not the right attitude, because yeah, it can happen for you. So the tagline of the show is conversations with ordinary spiritually Awakening people.

Suresh Ramaswamy: I think that’s fantastic. Because we need to stop thinking, you know, we awaken and you’re going to levitate, or we’re going to be eating Yeah. Or you’re gonna have some unusual visionary experiences, something spectacular, and stuff like that. I mean, all that can happen, but that’s not what it’s about. Yeah. Yeah. So, wherever we, oh, well,

Rick Archer: there’s a bunch of things. I mean, I think you need to say more about where when you had really kind of shifted into a state where kind of resting and being became the default. And then you begin kind of thinking and acting from there and sort of making decisions from that deeper state. It’s like, you know, the universe, established in yoga perform action. So, you know, somehow, through all this struggle, and determination, that eventually became your default?

Suresh Ramaswamy: Yes, exactly. Well, so these these spectacular, you know, momentary experiences of light, they slowly you adapt to it. So you actually hang out in the light, just a little bit longer, just a little bit longer. And this, this was happening more and more, and also, it starts leaking out. So it’s not just in the meditation, you may be driving, I’ve had such spectacular bliss, just pouring out of nowhere, while I’m driving. And I know, Rick, you, you had similar things happening. So this starts happening for no reason. And I think the meditation to me, long meditations have been a critical, important piece of my journey, that I felt like this did make a difference. And slowly, I started adapting and hanging out with the light and the light, you you first relate to the light as being something outside of you. And then as you get comfortable, you get drawn to it. And you can’t really find yourself outside of it. And it’s, it’s there is just the light, actually, there is no me hanging out in the light, there is just the light. And this just happens. It just develops. And furthermore, now when I look back at even my first meditation, back in my teens, I never thought of this. But I would close my eyes, I would look. And it would be like there’s a sun in the inner sun in the sky. This was always the case. So I thought, big deal. I mean, this is this is probably what everybody sees when they’re close their eyes. It never occurred to me that this was something, it’s only took a lot of meditation to rediscover what was happening pretty early on. So there was this inner light, which I feel when I look, when I look back, I see people struggling so much. I mean, there’s so much suffering, and even people on the spiritual path, there’s so much struggling, when I start looking at my experiences with light, it occurs to me that it doesn’t have to be that way, it doesn’t have to be just full of drama and suffering, that when we proactively engage with higher consciousness, we have this dynamic where light can lift us up and pull us into itself. It’s a beautiful experience at that point. So it’s just not I don’t see a bar, see and hear about it as much. Everybody’s talking about their Kundalini rising, and all kinds of things blowing up, the circuits are blowing up. And then they had to rush here and go, like, if you cultivate your energy circuits and light circuits, and then you proactively move towards light, you have the capacity to handle it. And light takes care of the most important things, you know, we can only do so much light can do the rest. So that’s kind of how it kept unfolding. And of course, this is starts permeating the entire existence. So all your day or your night, you’re in the light, you’re just in the light in you’re not having to do anything. You’re just in the light. And, of course, I started sharing about this, but very informally, because I always looked upon this as my own personal journey. It was relatively private. I wouldn’t talk about it outside much. But there came a point around this time when I was sort of product from insight to be more public about it. So that’s been the last 1012 years I’ve been more public about it.

Rick Archer: Oh, You just say to somebody who just heard what you said, and they say, Well, I meditate and I enjoy it. And my mind settles down, and it feels good and all that, but I’m not seeing any light. So am I doing it wrong? Or am I missing something? Or what? Yeah,

Suresh Ramaswamy: so excellent question. Night itself can make itself known to you through a variety of means. So of course, the most obvious thing when we talk about light is we feel this visual perception of light. And we translate that to the inner perception of light. And that’s, of course, makes a lot of sense. But light is also vibration. And you may feel this vibration in every cell of your being. So it’s, you’re still feeling light. But it’s like your body is like feeling full of this high vibration energy, you may hear light. And this is the human say the cosmic sound is nothing but light itself being presented as a vibratory sound. So it’s all connected. So I would say stay open to how it’s presented to you, it’s going to be very unique. And I would say, don’t be too influenced by what you read. Because, again, all the things I had read, they were all good. But they all are not quite right. When I started having my own experiences, so similarly, what I’m saying just take it as a possibility. But your experience, whatever you’re having, is just the right thing for you. That’s what I would say,

Rick Archer: yeah. And different people experience differently. According to their, their makeup, according to the nervous system. I heard a lecture on this one time that, you know, some people, it’ll be more a sense of vastness and others more a sense of bliss, and others may be light, and so on. So, you know, like you just said, all those books didn’t perfectly match your experience. But even what you’re saying now might not perfectly match somebody else’s experience. And yeah, that doesn’t diminish their experience.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Exactly, exactly. And so I think the experiences of higher consciousness and awakening and Enlightenment and all these things, you have to be very careful, because two people reach that level. They will describe it differently. And it’s not like one is right, one is wrong. One will be very centered around, say, self, they will talk a lot about the self disappeared, and I’m no longer feeling like a finite being. And that’s probably exactly right for them. But we don’t have to translate into that’s exactly how it has to be in that’s on my checklist to make sure I satisfy the criteria. No, it could look quite different for you, it could look like this amorphous vastness that you cannot even describe. And guess what, it is another facet of the same thing. So I think all of these descriptions are legitimate and valid.

Rick Archer: Yeah. And some of these people might be very devotional and some very intellectual, and some might be people who are primarily activity oriented, just according to their dharma, you know, their, their, their natural tendencies, but they could all be equally awakened. On the inside, so to speak.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Right. Right, exactly. That’s why we have to be a little bit careful about, we want to be crisp in trying to characterize what these high states are. But at the same time, if we get too precise, we may actually lose something. In being trained to be precise, we had to be very careful. There’s a line when you cross that the precision is actually taking diminishing the truth, truth quantity of

Rick Archer: it. Yeah, in fact, referencing the Gita again, there’s a verse where Arjuna is asking, Well, how does an Enlightenment behave? How does he sit? How does he walk? You know, he’s asking for all these external signals, and Krishna gives this answer, which is totally internal, you know, the study, the established intellect and so on, which you can’t really see externally.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Yes, exactly. Exactly. Absolutely. So I think all the things you hear, including on BatGap, I would, I would, you know, suggest to all the viewers, you know, use it as good data points, to mostly inspire you to do reaching higher states but not necessarily taking these things as specific things you have to check off. Yeah,

Rick Archer: that’s just thinking about like, Michael Moran from Ireland sent in a question. There are some spiritual teachers who talk a lot about Light and Divine Light such as mother Mira and he was wondering if you ever met her or other teachers who you know have emphasized light.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Yes, yes. Yes. The reference to light is hardly new. You, you can go back over 1000 years, you will see references to light. Yeah, when that

Rick Archer: is the single that the whole body will be full of light Jesus.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Hey, exactly. And we can talk a little more about what that light is because there’s a lot to be said about light. But to answer the question, yes, a lot of these teachers are talking about Transcendental light, I have met mother Mira, at one point, she’s referring from what I understand to the transcendental light. It’s the same light. And I feel there is the ability to perceive this light is actually built into us. So we never have to question you know, whether I am able to do that I can guarantee everyone that you have the ability. There’s absolutely no doubt. And so, but when you have that experience, you’re going to use different words to describe it. That’s also for sure. So. So yes, I would say this light is. So let’s a little bit talk about what the nature of this light is, if that, that seems relevant here. So we’re all used to the light and physics we’ve learned in physics, if we first learned about electromagnetics, the electromagnetic wave, and then okay, then we said, Wait a minute, this particle nature of light, and this dual nature, light is blood particles and waves. Excellent. This, to me is what I call the nature of light on the physical dimension. So on a very manifest level of reality, you will see this, and it’s fantastic even at that level. But the kinds of light I’m talking about is the non physical light. So when you step into the non physical, we’re dealing with subtle energy. And we’re dealing with instead of electromagnetic, it’s Magneto electric waves. And it’s also been referred to as hyper dimensional scalar waves. And if you’re thinking, where’s the science behind this, there’s lots of good signs. So if you need a reference, check out a Bill Taylor, Dr. Bill Taylor’s papers, he was

Rick Archer: ti ll er,

Suresh Ramaswamy: ti, ll er, he was the chair of the material science department at Stanford University before he retired. And he’s done. He’s written many books, many papers, many white papers, which are very readable, you will see what he’s done to characterize this physics equations, measurements, all that good stuff. So it’s pretty interesting how payments space are different, and so on, and how to measure it, we are just starting to get into that, being able to actually measure this subtle energy and the magneto electric field in a physical space. So that’s the, that’s where the non physical touches the physical, this is already pretty cool. But it’s not by any means the end of the journey, there’s further higher dimensional light, which you can think of as cosmic light. And this light is something which I would think of as packets of intelligence. From our point of view, we can think of it has seeds, which are ideational seeds, ideational constructs, which when you bring it to a more manifest level, it turns into stuff that we, we know about. So think of it as the root of that. So it’s a very, very sublime, a level of creation, that level of light. So that’s the, you’re starting to approach the highest frequencies of light, which I call the light of infinity. So if you think about it as this pure consciousness, and from there, creation is conceived, there’s the intelligence, which conceives creation, and then there’s the beginnings of the actual creation. That’s the first light. That’s the light of infinity. And from there, everything is more, you could say, the frequencies are getting more denser is one way to think about it. You could also think about it as there is, there is Plasma Light, then there’s liquid light, and then there’s crystallized light. So by the time it’s crystallized, you’re looking at the table in front of you, and saw what we think of solid objects. This too is light, it’s crystallized. So that’s a little bit about what I think of as the fields of light because literally all of creation is actually just light, including us. And we simply are tuning into these higher dimensional aspects which have always been there. And I think for somebody on the spiritual journey, this can make a radical difference. Because it’s almost like upgrading to business class. It’s certainly

Rick Archer: you can lie down and sleep.

Suresh Ramaswamy: I think you would lie down into being but not sleep, because sleep is, yeah, you really shift within, where you’re naturally abiding in what I call the state of beingness. Because it’s really, there’s nothing going on, but you are just resting in your essence. And that, to me is beingness. There is nothing going on. And a lot of people we are living in a world that is so much, you know, hustle and bustle, running around doing stuff are driven by the mind. This is a familiar world for most of us. So when you hear what beingness a lot of people think, are you talking about just taking a nap and not doing anything that they keep thinking it’s not doing anything and beingness is not that beingness transcends and subsumes doing and ongoing. So it’s neither doing not not not not doing. And you could certainly be engaged in action, and be and be in being. So the difference is, you know, what I call my book title is just me, because that title, I think, summarizes it down to two words, because when you’re just being, you can move through life through inspired action. So you still act, but it’s all coming out of inspiration, just like this BatGap show. There’s a lot of that happens behind the scenes, a lot of actions, but it’s coming from a place of inspiration. That changes fundamentally, it’s very different. So that’s a little bit about light, and how it can radically change the trajectory of our evolutionary journey.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I mean, you can be very deeply established in beingness. And playing a intense tennis game or something like that, you know, and racing all over the place, jumping back and forth. And yet there’s that. In your innermost experience, you’re not doing anything. Exactly. pure silence.

Suresh Ramaswamy: This kind of goes back to that action in action and action. Strangely enough, that’s pointing at beingness. It’s really pointing at being as it’s saying, even if you do don’t get caught up in doing this. Yeah. Stay in the being.

Rick Archer: Yeah, my my sense is that versus what you think about it is that the second part of it inaction in action is what I just said, one could be playing tennis or something. And yet there’s a level in one’s experience, which is inactive, because it’s just pure silence being but the first part of it, action in inaction, is that the way the first part goes, yeah, yes. Is that I think there’s something really interesting, which is that the field of pure silence or pure Being is an ocean of intelligence that is bubbling with intelligence. So there’s dynamism within the field of silence. And you could think of the dynamism as impulses of intelligence in the ocean of intelligence, but it’s pure silence. And yet at the very same time, it’s pure dynamism. And that, to me, is the understanding, as I guess, of action in inaction, so it’s not just dead flat, silent being it’s it’s an ocean of potentiality. That’s just bursting with energy and creativity. Intelligence.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Exactly. Exactly. So I think then you hang out in these planes of light. That’s exactly how I would say it. It’s, there seems like there’s nothing going on. And yet the possibilities are infinite. It’s bubbling with these infinite possibilities and the potential to turn into a variety of into universes. Yeah. Yeah. So that’s absolutely

Rick Archer: stuck. That way, too. They say that in a cubic centimeter of empty space at the level of the vacuum state, there’s more energy, potential energy, then there isn’t a whole manifest universe. It’s just like, tremendous.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Yes, yes. Yeah. I think science. I do see pockets here and there, which is really cool things happening. Where people like, Donald Hoffman, I don’t know if you’ve had an interview. You have. Amazing. That’s amazing. I mean, that, you know, again, for people who may not be familiar, he’s a he’s a Professor of cognitive science in University of California, he talks about how what I talked about as crystallized light a minute back, he talks about it as the user interface for something. That’s the deeper truth. So that’s an interesting way of talking about Chris crystallization as the user interface for higher constructs of light, eventually leading up to the essence. So nothing is what it appears to be. You know, I mentioned that many times. And Donald Hoffman is talking about how you can prove that scientifically. And as a part of the evolutionary journey, how you can show that we have actually optimized it such that the user interface is optimized, not that we see the truth, but we feel it has the right UI characteristics, which for me, is Revelation right there.

Rick Archer: Yeah. It’s funny, just like 10 minutes before we started this interview, a message came in email came in from a guy said, I really loved your interview with Donald Hoffman. So it’s funny that you would bring him up. But I thought about that interview. And it’s like, I spent a week preparing for walking my usual routine walking in the park while listening to him. And as I felt like, my brain was going to explode or something because I really had to stretch to completely understand what he was saying. But by the end of the week, I felt like Okay, I think I have it, we can have this conversation. But he was great. I encourage people to watch that one. Yes, I want to ask you another question about light. Before we get too much further. I don’t usually think of, I mean, I’ve had experiences of inner light, and I can sometimes think of it that way. But I don’t usually think of pure consciousness as light. Because light to me seems to be a little bit more manifest level than pure consciousness itself. Light has a sensory connotation. And I think of perhaps what we might call the causal or celestial realm as light. And the beings there doesn’t the word Deva actually mean light being

Suresh Ramaswamy: shining, being shining beings?

Rick Archer: Yeah, that’s the literal translation of it, I think. So I think of, of that of the light field as being a little bit warmed up level of the Absolute, and which, which is all light, and there would be beings who have light bodies and will probably live in White Houses. Not by not by the ocean, but you know, structures. Yeah, anyway, yeah, no, that’s

Suresh Ramaswamy: yes, no, no, that actually matches up exactly. Because there’s pure consciousness, the absolute, where there’s absolutely nothing going on. I mean, there is nothing we can say about it. There’s nothing we can say about it. As soon as we say there is a vibration, which is really creation, at that point is vibration, there’s something going on. That’s where the light starts. So let there be light, you know, there be light, the highest purest vibration, and it’s still a vibration. So it’s already out of your consciousness. And yes, there’s beings who are at that level, that’s their kind of baseline

Rick Archer: stomping ground. Yeah, yeah.

Suresh Ramaswamy: And from there, and that light is not necessarily what we think of as visible light, it just is light is represents a lot of things, it’s not just the visible quality, it’s something light can be invisible, actually.

Rick Archer: And perhaps we can say it would be visible, you have to have the eyes to see it, it’s it’s a subtle form of light, which the average person’s nervous system is not refined enough to cognize. But one can get refined enough to cognize it. And that’s why some people actually see those subtle beings, you know, I don’t know whether they’re seeing them with their physical eyes, perhaps they’re seeing them with their inner eye, and they could see them even the physical eyes were damaged. But um, some are other, there’s that perceptual ability in some

Suresh Ramaswamy: way. Right. So maybe this is a perfect point to talk about this, where the physical pattern does, perceives the electromagnetic light, then we shift into our inner energetic, anatomy, energetic vision, we can perceive the subtle light. Furthermore, there is the light anatomy. So we have whole causal anatomy, which perceives the causal light, which is the highest frequency. So if you have these three levels, so a lot of times, people will talk about Kundalini and energy centers, and there’s a lot of emphasis on the energetic anatomy as if that’s the endpoint. And to me, that’s a stepping stone to the light centers, light anatomy, and the higher perception which is even now even more subtle, even more subtle. And when I say subtle, don’t think always beings floating around in these dimensions. The subtle thing is very ambient. It’s just like, imagine you’re flying at 35,000 feet. And you look outside the window, like your heart sing hola doors, just open expansiveness, maybe some clouds. It’s more like that, as I see it, it’s not a lot of people busy doing a lot of things. Plain,

Rick Archer: little elves holding the plane.

Suresh Ramaswamy: So, so I’d like so it’s so that’s why, as we build up our subtle perception, we don’t want to stop anywhere. Because even when we perceive another light, we could proceed even higher octaves of the slide as we keep going. And you could be walking

Rick Archer: through the woods and looking at a tree and you’re not seeing a subtle beings or anything you’re seeing the celestial level of, of the tree. So yeah, it might be seen as glowing, you know, when the celestial glow is if you have golden glasses on or something.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Right, right. So in fact, you know, usually all the stuff we do with our eyes closed. So it’s typical, of course, we close our eyes, we focus on the inner eye, and that’s great. But eventually, it’s not either, or, you can have your physical eyes open, and the inner eyes open at the same time. And it’s all it’s superimposed on this. So you can have both existing concurrently. And you don’t have to run back to your meditation cushion to perceive something in the inner world. It’s always on

Rick Archer: integrated. Yeah, we’re gonna talk about integration more today. No, that’s one of your big themes. It’s important. Yeah. So what you’re saying is that the gross physical body is just the outermost or most manifest level of what we are. And there are subtler levels of the of the body, kind of like the Russian doll model. And those subtler levels have sensory apparatus, actually, I mean, when people have a near death experience, in fact, that question came in about that, which I want to ask you, or an out of body experience. I’ve interviewed many people have had out of body experiences, their gross body is lying on the operating table or some someplace like that. But they’re, they’re off looking at something down the street. So there’s some kind of sensory apparatus that’s more subtle than the gross body? Yes,

Suresh Ramaswamy: exactly, exactly. So we have these sort of, you could say, altered states of consciousness, whether it’s by ingesting a substance, or a car accident, or a near death experience, where we totally see this kind of thing happening. But it’s kind of disjoint it’s like, when I take the substance, I’m off in this altered state, then I come back, it’s like a dichotomy. But over time, you notice, it’s all part of us. And it can be, it can be all equally existing at the same time, you know, happy coexistence, yeah,

Rick Archer: integrated. And I also get the sense in it, and I’ve talked to many people about this, there’s sort of like a, you know, the way a camera can zoom in or zoom out, according to what you do with the lens. So, you know, we gain the ability, as we as the range of our experience grows, and incorporates subtler realms of creation, we’re not necessarily going to be, you know, dwelling on focusing on the subtle phenomenon all the time, like while we’re driving down the street or something, because it’s not necessary or appropriate. So we’ve, we zoom to the level of the street, and then maybe we should go sit on a park bench and relax. And then we, you know, settled down to a subtler level of perception. Do you think that’s valid? Or does that need correction? What I just said,

Suresh Ramaswamy: I think it’s actually awesome, it’s very useful to keep that in mind, I would maybe just add something to that, which is, I would look at it as three things to keep in mind. One is the baseline of consciousness. So it’s almost like, depending on evolution, we’ve, we parked our consciousness at some level, because we feel that feels comfortable. We’ve just adapted and built up to that level, wherever that is. So we got to get a sense of where that is. Because sometimes if it is park on a very finite level, then the intensity of this drama starts feeling like too much. Because we’re parked there. We don’t know anything else. We’re like, This is it. This is it. And that doesn’t feel too good. As our consciousness rises. We have a much more all encompassing sense of things. So we see Yeah, there’s some crazy stuff going on here. But you’re also cognizant of something subtler, deeper, higher at the same time. So this baseline is number one I would look at in terms of level of consciousness. Second one is exactly what you said, which is the ability to be fluid In moving about, to wherever there’s wherever it’s relevant. So whatever needs attention, we go there. If it’s on the light planes, we go there, we’re moment later when needed in the grocery shop, checkout, we’re there. So we were able to move and not be like, Oh, I am going to stay in light. That’s, something’s a little off there. So the ability to fluidly move about. And finally, I would say, to complete the story. Wherever we are, we have like this, you could say, a bubble around us. And at first, the bubble is little small, it’s a little tight. It’s like the energy is tight. And as we evolve, there’s more, more sort of fluidity and flexibility, and bigness. So wherever we are, we’re big. Okay, even if it’s on the grill, in the grocery store, we’re big there. If it’s on some super high dimension of light, we’re big there. So this bigness stays with us. We’re anchored at high plates, and we’re mobile. So don’t be these characterize the consciousness level?

Rick Archer: That’s really good. So in other words, just to reiterate, pure consciousness becomes the baseline. And then we are function functioning in the in the relative field and the field of activity can fluctuate between gross and subtle levels, according to the needs of the moment.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Though,

Rick Archer: you can be doing something really vigorous, as we said before playing tennis pier, gotcha. This is there, you could be sort of communing with the Davis or whatever. Guys, this is their

Suresh Ramaswamy: right. And increasingly, you are not defined by where you happen to be. Right? That doesn’t define you. You could be out playing tennis. It doesn’t reflect badly or anything. There’s nothing wrong with playing tennis. There’s nothing wrong with meditating. There’s not It’s not like one is better than the other. They’re all all just fine. Yeah. And I think maybe when we talk later about exalted states of consciousness, we can talk a little more about this kind of thing, how things are a little bit different as you move from one strainer to another?

Rick Archer: Yeah, let’s not forget to do that. Let me get this question that came in from Rita. I don’t know where it really is. But it’s related to what we’ve been saying and takes us off in a little bit. Additional direction. She said, You referred to early experience with the light as lucid dreams. Guess when you were a little kid? Can you explain the difference between lucid dreams and out of body experiences? There’s a distinction between lucid dreams and OBE, but I don’t think I get it. They seem to be about the same thing.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Okay. Okay. Yeah, it’s a good question. Because certainly, there is there’s overlapping things here. And by overlapping, I mean, let’s look at it. So lucid dreaming, you are primarily highly aware. And you are, it’s like you’re seeing a movie. And you’re very aware that this is a movie. So you’re very lucid, basically, out of body experiences, what’s happening is, you are most of us are like, locked into this body. And we’re operating from the physicality of our being. But if you unlock that, and now you’re floating in your astral body, which has some different characteristics to it, you can have experiences in your astral body. So you can have out of body experiences, like, you know, you can travel to places, you can see remote things, things like that. So, but you have that disconnection from your physical body. So that characterizes our body. Now, where it starts getting interesting is as part of a lucid dream. Typically, in a lucid dream, you’re not out of body, but you could step into our body as part of your lucid dream. So this is where you’re having both. You’re having a lucid experience, which is our party. And it’s you could call it astral projection. And there’s all kinds of interesting things going on there. So they’re not the same, but they can be an overlap.

Rick Archer: Okay, good. All right. So where do we want to go next? We still have a lot to cover, I think what would you like to discuss next?

Suresh Ramaswamy: Oh, boy. One thing I’d like to reflect on is maybe, well, practices we talked a little bit about practices, but maybe the role of practices I think sometimes there’s confusion about people that are like So do you believe in practices or not, you know, if this is these are the only two choices And I feel both ways, I think practices are very, very important. And I think we’ve want to do everything we can to discipline ourselves, so that we can step into these higher dimensional feats of light. It does take discipline, it does take clarification of our internal internal state. So practices systematically take us in that direction. So I would say, find whatever practice you like, and make sure you regularly do it, this is going to be very important. On the other hand, what I actually saw when I started stumbling into some interesting places, in consciousness, is that when you kind of break through into a whole nother level, you realize, like, when I was having this big experience with light, I knew instantly, that no amount of meditation can get you there. So I felt like, all my meditation was not sufficient to put me in that place. So it’s, it’s, you can tell that grace has stepped in and picked you up. And it’s not your practice, it’s so clear, it’s so clear, you can meditate for a million years. I mean, I knew this so strongly, that everything I did, I could keep doing it for a million years, it would not be enough. And so practices are futile. Other words, okay, and it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do it. It’s very, very important. But don’t think you can make this thing happen, you can’t make it happen. You have to be, you know, sometimes I say this, it takes extraordinary simplicity, extraordinary humility, an extraordinary clarity, to to perceive this pure luminosity of infinity. So you got to get so simple, so clear, and so humble. And practices can help that because they peel away your agendas, your personality, your identity, until you’re so simple, so clear, so humble and pure, that you see what’s already there. And, and you still recognize that it’s purely grace, it’s 100%. Grace. So there is a it’s obviously seems contradictory on the surface, but it’s not. It’s not contradictory. You, you’ve got to have this unwavering focus. steadfastness, presume arounds, you can’t stop. I mean, you gotta keep going with your practices. But obviously be smart about it. You have to be intelligent and which practices right? And who you hang out with, you know, whether it’s the community you hang out with, or if you choose to work with a teacher. be discerning. You know who that is makes a difference.

Rick Archer: Yeah. You’ve probably heard the saying, Enlightenment may be an accident, that spiritual practice makes you accident, Paxman. That’s fantastic. And there was also some teacher who said to his students, you’re all perfect, just as you are. But you could all use improve.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Yes, yes. You know, and another way to put it is, it takes a lot of effort to become effortless.

Rick Archer: Yeah. I’ve been studying a lot of Vedanta in recent years and the you wouldn’t know this to hear some people talk but Vedanta gives full lease the teacher I’ve been studying with, gives full recognition and respect to all the various types of practices, you know, Karma Yoga, Raja, yoga, bhakti, yoga, all the different things when could do and what Buddhism has to offer all kinds of things. And they feel In Vedanta, that the final step doesn’t have anything to do with practices, as you just said, but that all these practices and Shankara taught this to that practices, refine, pure and purify one, to the point where, you know, Vedanta can actually be practiced, effectively. And it’s not really a practice, it’s more of a step of clarity of understanding that takes you across the final threshold. And I think the word grace which you use is also very good, because it’s not something you do. It’s more like, Grace takes care of it when you’re ready for it. Yeah,

Suresh Ramaswamy: exactly. And the grace, you realize even the force that motivated you to practice. Yeah, that’s also grace. Yeah, it’s also great. So you realize this in retrospect, and you’re filled with such tremendous gratitude because from the Getting to the end. The Grace was there. It’s just that in the end, it was like, starkly obvious. There’s one funny thing I wanted to relate at this is a saint centuries back who, who was sharing about his journey. And, and he said, You know, I came across incredible practices, and I really applied myself. I did it with all my heart, and it didn’t work. So I would go to the next practice, work really hard, it wouldn’t work. And he said, practice after practice failed. Until finally, I found something that worked. And everybody’s like, what is that? What is that? So he says, weeping was when you walked in there was weeping. And basically, you know, when your heart reaches that point, when you truly cry out for the infinite, that is heard. So we don’t want to get so caught up in practices, and be so regimented and mechanical, that none of that works. Okay, you can’t convince infinity to say I’ve done 10,000 hours of this practice. Who cares? It doesn’t work. But when you cry out, oh, boy, that changes everything.

Rick Archer: I’ve heard a number of teachers say that the most essential factor is the desire and the intensity of your desire. In fact, Patanjali says the Yoga Sutras, yogi’s can be categorized as mild, medium, or intense, and the ones who vehement intensity like, you know, Enlightenment or bust. They’re the ones who tend to get it the quickest, although you tell a funny story in your book about a teacher who says, you want to tell the story? Whether it takes 10 years, 20 years, 30 years?

Suresh Ramaswamy: That’s right. That’s right. Yes. So this teacher, this student was obviously very, very gung ho. It goes to the teacher and says, you know, I’m going to really apply myself here. And I’m willing to do everything you’re talking about. How long will it take for me to get enlightened, have the breakthrough? Teacher says 10 years? And he goes away, thinks about it comes back. He’s like, I’m going to double my practice. I’m going to stop everything do this night and day, how long will it take? Teacher says 20 years. And this continuously, he wants to even to add more. Teachers is 30 years. So you can see where this is going. It’s it’s really, it’s not about that. You realize that? Yeah.

Rick Archer: Yeah. And I think part of the my understanding of why this would be the case possibly is that there’s something there’s something about effortless effort, there’s a verse in the, in the Vedas, someplace that says, Be easy to us with gentle effort. You can you can struggle and strain, and it actually can stress you out, you know, I mean, it can create knots of tension in your in your nervous system, you can crack up, you can literally go insane. I’ve seen people do it. And Swami Sarvapriyananda talks about it to people who just struggle and strain so hard that they go nuts. So there’s some kind of a balance point between determination and surrender.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Yes, yeah. Yes, exactly. So there is, you know, when I look at my years of meditation early on, there was clearly the energy of striving, and efforting. And I look back now and I’m like, you know, I wish I could just relax more, you know, you have to relax. There is this balance between having the motivation to practice, but when you do practice, you’re totally relaxed. Because these higher states that you cannot get there, if you’re pushing the pushing energy doesn’t work.

Rick Archer: When I learned to meditate, the kind of meditation I learned that one of the main principles was that the mind has a natural tendency to seek a field of greater happiness. And pure consciousness is said to be a blissful state. So the technique utilize that tendency and allow the mind to move in the direction of pure consciousness from the outset, and then to encounter greater charm at every step of the way. So it was effortless for me from day one. And I don’t think I would have taken well to I didn’t have the discipline to practice something that would have been arduous. So, you know, it’s kind of just taking advantage of something that’s a built in tennis, natural tendency of our mind.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Yeah. Yeah, that’s that kind of technique would be very appealing to people and I can see that dynamic is really good. It kind of draws you into subtler states. Yeah, that’s fantastic. That’s fantastic.

Rick Archer: One of the points in your notes he sent me is awakening is awakening gradual or sudden? I would say yes.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Yes to your Yeah. US. So here’s the thing, all those years of practice, were they wasted, I look back, and I’m like, No, they were not because there is the capacity to hold higher consciousness, which is built up over time. And when you look at it, it doesn’t seem like a big deal. But boy, when it’s not there, it’s like, if you just go for a hike, and you step into a flash flood, I mean, that thing is gonna, you know, throw you off, you, you are not prepared for it. Whereas if you’ve built up your sockets, slowly, but surely, these sockets, the capacity of the sockets to handle the high energy is there, and then it’s actually pleasurable, that same pleasantness can be highly unpleasant. If you’re not, you don’t have the capacity. So the practices do have their role to play, even if it looks like they’re not paying off right away. And furthermore, integration turns out is a pretty rough journey, if your circuits have not been built up, because integration has many dimensions to it. There’s a psychological dimension, there’s a somatic physical dimension, there’s an energetic dimension, these dimensions all have to be addressed. So if you’ve done a good job of building your energetic capacity, you at least got pretty strong in one way, and you can focus on the psychological stuff. Or maybe the physical stuff, maybe there’s your digestion is thrown off, or something crazy is happening, you can focus on that. Otherwise, if everything is thrown off, that’s tough. It can take you years to come back to what seems normal, right? You’re like, forget all this Enlightenment, I just want to be like an average person, you know, it can get good can get that bad. Yeah.

Rick Archer: Spoken like a true electrical engineer. I mean, I’m sure in electrical engineering, you understand that? I’m just reminding the audience that you are one actually but it too much voltage flowing through a circuit can fry it, you know, blow it out. And there that’s perfectly apt to the spiritual path and in too much intensity in an unprepared nervous system can create serious problems.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Yes, absolutely. So that aspect is pretty important. And there’s practices I talk about, I have a practice I talked about called river of light, where you move this light energy through your light channels. And so you’re building up this capacity, basically. And there’s so many ways to do that spinal breathing, etc. Whichever you gravitate towards even Qigong, or yoga, etc, they all help you slowly, but steadily develop this balanced in our circuit.

Rick Archer: Um, I moderated a panel discussion at the science and non duality conference five or six years ago, about the direct versus progressive paths. And this is kind of related to what we’re talking about right now. You know, some people have the idea that you can somehow just directly bingo, be enlightened or cut short the whole path of evolution and just arrive at it, then others say, no, no, it has to, it’s going to take time, you have to sort of build up. And I don’t think it’s quite as either or is that I think one can have direct glimpses, and then through having those repeatedly, progressively, culture and refine the nervous system. Until that becomes permanent. But I haven’t actually seen any examples. I don’t think of anyone who just sort of from day one, or even day 10 had some kind of direct realization, and then never lost it, or and was perfectly integrated, and in their behavior and their ethical values. And, you know, all this all the other stuff that is involved in living human life.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Right, right. Yeah, I don’t think it’s an either or, you know, going back to your question, is it gradual or sudden, there’s a gradual part, and there is a quantum shift. And there are many quantum shifts. In fact, I think of awakening as any quantum shift. You can think of it as an awakening. And this is to be expected. There’ll be a lot of gradual stuff, which is significant and not to be undervalued, simply because you can write a blog post about it, you know, it’s actually stuff which is very important about it. Important, and then there is quantum shifts, and then there’s like, whoa, something’s happening here. So I feel these both are important. And in fact, the quantum shifts are great news. But if you can’t hold on to them, you’re in trouble. So that’s where the gradual stuff plays and shows its role.

Rick Archer: Do you think there is any final resting place? Or do you think that evolution is open ended?

Suresh Ramaswamy: Here? Again, I would say yes to both actually. So there is, there is a thing I would say where you have mostly you could say, graduated from existing as a pattern individual. So there is there is that idea of graduating from that, but doesn’t mean you’re done. Because you can continuously, the embodiment can continue, where you are constantly stepping into more refined ways of radiating that realization that is indefinite, and ever increasing and ever more subtle and ever more powerful. But at the same time, you can say there is a point where something is fundamentally shifted, and it’s revocable and irreversible. At that point,

Rick Archer: yeah. There’s the Hindu model of the 14 logos, you know, and you can, you can reach a point where you don’t have to come back to the earth plane anymore, but you’re still on some higher loca and perhaps evolving upward, you know, there. So, that model sort of makes sense to me.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Yeah, yeah. Except I think that model as long as we don’t think those planes are places where we have to show up, and I have to die and go to this plane, and then have a graduate from there. Right here, we have all the planes, right. So we don’t want to be like, I hope I graduate from this plane, then I go to the next plane. And then from there, it’s you could be graduating from many planes right now.

Rick Archer: And usually, people who talk about those planes say that chances are if you go and dwell on one for a while, you’re going to come back here again, because that’s not liberation. That’s just some heaven. Yeah. Yeah.

Suresh Ramaswamy: So that’s a pretty long, very fascinating journey. And it gets pretty complex. But I think the good news is the fundamental principles, some of these things we’re talking about, like beingness, you can be on whatever plane you want the fundamental ideas of beingness, essence, infinity light, they apply. So you stick to these principles, you’re going to keep going in the right direction. That’s important.

Rick Archer: Here’s a question that came in from Rita Spartanburg. Are there reasons that grace? would withhold experiences from someone? Or is it because of a lack of openness or perception on the part of that person? Does it have anything to do with who deserves them or not?

Suresh Ramaswamy: So clearly, if I had to say only one thing, I would say, grace is very universal, very impartial, and very neutral. So it’s fully available to everyone equally. So this is the more important thing. But when we sit in these bodies, the way grace we perceive Grace trickling into our eyes, we may see it in interesting ways. And we may use these kinds of ideas that haven’t reached a certain level of development, maybe I don’t deserve these kinds of blessings. And it can feel like that. But ultimately, it’s not true. Ultimately, Grace even gives us the best we can take. And and so it’s not like it’s not held back. I don’t think it’s personally, I don’t think anything is handed back in any way. It’s all it’s all there.

Rick Archer: I can think of an example of grace, holding back, or at least providing an experience very reluctantly. In the 11th Chapter of the Gita, our Juna wants to see Krishna has divine form. And Krishna basically says no, you can’t handle it. But our Juna persists. And Krishna finally says alright, here you go. And you have this experience and that he spends the rest of the chapter asking him to take it away, because it’s too much.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Yes, yes. So, okay. So Grace is there doesn’t mean I can ask for anything. I’ll get it. You know, that’s certainly not. It doesn’t mean that and on the spiritual path, we may read something we like, I want that. Can you give it to me? No, Grace doesn’t operate. It’s not push a button. You’ll get it? No. But on the other hand, what you truly need will be given. Yeah, that’s what I’m talking about. Whether we realize that or not, regardless. So I think it’s very important for us to be so old And that wherever it comes in, we take it in. And then you see something bigger comes in. And soon it becomes so undeniable that you will never question it, it becomes too much. Almost

Rick Archer: the Rolling Stones had a song where they said, they’re saying you can’t always get what you want. But you can try. Sometimes you might find, you get what you need.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Yeah, yes, yes. And you know, a few minutes back, I talked about weeping, I think it’s always a good idea to pour out, whatever you think, whatever level you are at whatever you can think, just go ahead and place it at the feet of infinity. Don’t self judge self evaluate, and try to figure out what’s the right thing for me just just let it all go. And I think that kind of thing. Makes a big difference. It can happen any time. If you’re, you know, even now, as we’re talking, I feel like, I feel like telling all the viewers don’t just think of this as an exchange of ideas to be digested by your mind. I would love for everyone to listen with their whole being, like with your heart, with your whole body with your energy and pick up what’s there. Because right now Grace could be operating and giving you something you really need. So be open to that. Be open to that in every moment.

Rick Archer: Yeah, that’s really important. I mean, you know, if we just think of this as an interesting conversation, and then go on with our lives, they won’t have a lasting effect. Maybe there’ll be some influence, but ultimately, you know, we want to experience all this stuff, not just understand it or, and be entertained by it. And so somehow, we need to find a way each of us to grow in our experience.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Exactly, exactly. So yes, you feel this quality of melting. I feel like when you shift from your more intellectual, cerebral way of thinking of things, to feeling into things, the entire spiritual experience start changing, you feel like, everything is softer, more diffuse. And you are entering into the soft energetic field where you you can’t help but Melton to that, when these kinds of things happening, pay attention, because you’ve stepped into a whole nother dimension, when you start feeling that this is quite remarkable. So don’t be looking for some flashy thing. This subtle softness. That’s a big deal.

Rick Archer: Yeah, this whole conversation, this part of the conversation reminds me of something I’ve been wanting to ask you, which is the whole issue of psychedelics. You mentioned psychedelics earlier. And there’s some really good things happening with psychedelics in terms of helping people get off alcohol, or tobacco or face death, if they have terminal cancer, without fear, and many people attribute them. To them, profound experience, prefer spiritual awakenings and experiences. But I have yet to be convinced that psychedelics can be a long term viable means of attaining higher states of consciousness. They give you they can give you a profound glimpse, but I don’t know. I haven’t seen examples of people who might who have taken them regularly for long periods of time. Who are satisfied themselves with what they’ve attained? I mean, there’s a great guy named Chris Bish, whom I’ve interviewed, along with Michael Pollan, who’s writer on a number of things, including psychedelics. And you know, after, I don’t know, nearly 100, pide dosage, LSD trips, Chris still felt like, Okay, I had amazing glimpses and experiences, but there’s something missing. There’s not this permanent abiding realization, I got the same feeling when I interviewed Stanislav Grof, that after all, he had been through over the decades, there was a sort of a melancholy or something I picked up on it. So I don’t know. For me, I did them when I was a teenager. And it really opened my eyes to the possible possibility that there was more to life than I had been perceiving. But I can’t imagine them having been a long term solution for me. And in fact, they did damage as well as provide some glimpses.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Yeah, I think I mean, you really summarized beautifully. I mean, I would echo that same sentiment, which is, there can be glimpses, which are very convincing. And for some of us, we’re still so starved, because we’re so like, we had heard enough of what’s going on around us. That that glimpse gives us a ray of hope that boy This thing is real, it’s not just books talking about it, I know it’s real. And that we can be the positive aspect. And that kind of pretty much drops there, you still have to do the work, you can own that you can abide in that. So the danger is, you might get a glimpse, and you might be like, I can’t wait to have that glimpse again. And I know exactly the guy I need to go see, and just need a weekend off and do this. This is the danger where you start going there, as if that is a strategic approach. And it’s not a strategic approach, because you keep getting glimpse after a glimpse, but the glimpses get to be more of a mixed bag, because your subconscious starts showing up in bigger and bigger ways. material that is unprocessed, is going to start showing up. Secondly, you’re in a very imbalanced state to integrate that unconscious material, you’re not in a place of lucidity, clarity and power. So I think that’s a not a good place to be handling these things. Furthermore, you’re compromising your energy field, you know, if you look at the energy field of somebody who’s been doing any kind of substance for a long period of time, their energy flow gets compromised is essentially has, you know, dents and, and, and holes. And these will have to be repaired, these will need to be repaired and the repair will require systematic, long term energetic work, needs to allow healing. So there is no shortcut. In the end. In the end, you’ll have to do the work and I feel let’s start sooner, rather than go down the path of substances. And then 10 years later, I’ll really start doing the work. You know,

Rick Archer: I think even Carlos Castaneda, his teacher, Don Juan said something about that holes in one’s luminosity. And you know, that long term. hallucinogens were quite destructive if you kept out him, but that he felt like Carlos was such a dunce he needed a kickstart.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Yes, yes, I think do that during the early days, like I think back to 60s 60s on rom Das. And that generation, there was some confusion between altered states of consciousness and truly high states of consciousness, where you are, again, abiding in those states, and you really have done the work. And so the consciousness itself was such an unchartered territory that even altered states were considered like, this is so cool. I’m going to go for it. So. So I think there was a little bit of confusion. I think now we’re coming out of that confusion, where it’s pretty clear. Yeah, those are altered states. Yeah, they’re pretty cool. But only for five minutes. You can’t you can, you know, hang your hat on that. You’ll have to do the work. Yeah.

Rick Archer: You mentioned the energy field and seeing, you know, imbalances in the energy field, do you have that kind of perception yourself? Do you see people’s energy fields,

Suresh Ramaswamy: you know, when I meet incredibly talented people who can see that stuff, I feel like I’m nowhere, anywhere, have that kind of capabilities. But I do feel it in my own way. And it is much more you could say subtle, rather than, you know, looking at a very like as if you’re looking at an x ray of somebody saying, okay, here on this quadrant, you got a little puncture. So I know I don’t have those kinds of abilities. But you start seeing, you know, you talked about the intensity of seeking, you start seeing who has this fire really burning, you can feel that heat. And that really makes my day when I feel when I meet somebody, whoa, it really like this person means business. And I feel wow, this, this is what it takes, I can see that it will take it may take time. But I can see that quality is there. And whatever the impediments are, they can be overcome. I don’t see that as an issue. Once that fire is burning brightly, you will get there. Because guess what all of us have had to overcome a variety of things. I don’t think we need to glamorize our unique issues. They’re just issues at the end of the day.

Rick Archer: The Gita says no effort is lost and no obstacle exists.

Suresh Ramaswamy: There you go. There you go. Yeah.

Rick Archer: Here’s a question that came in again from Michael Moran and Ireland. And if you don’t know, you know if any of these questions I asked is not in your ballpark, just we can pass on but Any experiences with the merkabah? The Light Body vehicle purportedly use for interdimensional travel, often reported as a catalyst for mystical experiences and experiences on celestial planes?

Suresh Ramaswamy: Yeah, so yes, that’s the one fascinating topic where, you know, when people start talking about the planes of light, and how do you get there? How do you function there, how you navigate there. So there’s things like merkabah. But in general, I would say, there is what I mentioned as the light body. So our own higher dimensional aspect of our being, you could say, has got certain aspects to it, as you start understanding these things. You can amplify certain energies. So you can amplify by using sacred geometries, you can amplify by a tuning into certain frequencies of light, like diamond frequencies of light, you can sort of tune in and tune up certain things in your light body that essentially activates it and strengthens it. So So yes, there’s ways of working with that. Again, it becomes a matter of you can operate on the light frequencies with much more ease, and it becomes more natural at the end of the day. Okay, so there’s many tools.

Rick Archer: Rohit Singh is asking, what would be an example of not holding back asking for grace?

Suresh Ramaswamy: What would be an example of not holding back? So I feel a lot of us can sometimes have some tentativeness. Could be lack of self worth could be lack of self love could be any number of things where we feel, you know, I’ve actually had conversations where I’m working one on one with people, and I ask them, if you could ask for anything. What would you do ask for and they say, I wish I could have a better boss. That’s really what I want. Really what I want. And this is, I’m not kidding. So we

Rick Archer: know it reminds me of a joke. So a dog found one of those magic lamps and rubbed it and a genie came out. And so the genius he, when you see the cartoon, he’s the dogs already gotten his first two wishes. And the genie is saying, you only have one more wish? Are you sure you want another tummy rub?

Suresh Ramaswamy: There you go. So we are on sometimes because of how we see and perceive. Whatever we see and perceive affects what we ask for. So we asked for these balloons, which ended up being like very finite oriented, small, very small. And sometimes we may ask for maybe we’ve read a lot of spiritual stuff, we say, well, I know what I want Enlightenment. Well, we may still not be truly asking for it, because Enlightenment implies, or you’re willing to let go of everything. Because all all the stuff can’t make it in, you know, pass that porker. So are you implicitly willing to let go of everything? So if you really mean it, it has to be right there. So you can’t just ask for and not say it and bring along all this baggage. So so we need to be truly ready for it. And if we are, I think things happen. So yeah, hopefully that answers.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Not asking for grace. I think one way of looking at desires, like you just said, like to get a better boss. Nothing wrong with them. Everybody has them. And desires can be thought of as steps, steps for progress. Hopefully. There’s a natural tendency in life to want to become happier to expand one’s territory of influence to know more to be more all this stuff. And you know, we don’t necessarily leap to the highest possibility in one one bound. Sometimes it’s incremental, or, you know, step by step. But, um, but I think it’s also good. You know, we’re often faced with different possibilities and we can’t do everything. And I, you know, I think if, if we can discern that okay, well, this one seems to be higher than this one, then go for the highest First, choose that one. And, you know, prioritize if you can. And that I think would be the wisest use of one’s time and energy.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Yeah, yeah, I think time to time it’s good to take an honest look at what’s on my plate. and sometimes we, we have spiritual aspirations. But we’ve got 25 things on the plate. And the what’s left in terms of energy is very little for the spiritual aspiration. So we really need to simplify, you know, over time. We’ve got to say, Well, yeah, reality is I’ve got to do these things today, okay, fine. But over the years, you got to start looking at, if there’s 25 hasn’t gone for 20, as 105 hasn’t gone to three. Because if if, if this, this was maybe a good point, or reflect on this, the desire the general idea of desires, because if you step back and look at the journey of evolution over a very long period of time, I look at it as for the longest time, you know, when we individuate, we’re like, Whoa, I can’t believe I’m like this being and this is so cool. And I can’t wait to have experiences. And we have experiences, we love it. But we feel like I can crank up the intensity a little more, because that’ll be more fun. So we keep cranking up the intensity by hiding our infinite nature from ourselves. So because that is like such a thrill, just for a moment, I forget that I’m an infinite being. And I’m lost in my individuality. That’s so cool. Because when I rediscover my infinite nature, it is amazing. So we keep going back and forth, and we keep hiding more and more. Under a bigger and bigger rock, we keep hiding, it’s harder to find ourselves, and denser and denser realities, we, we actually create denser reality so we can hide in a bigger way. This is the journey of involution. I feel, because what happens is, we we are betting on individuation, as being more fulfilling. So in tunnel to us, there is this voice, I humorously call it, Ted Talks. So Ted Talks is this voice within us. And Ted stands for thrills, excitement and drama. So we feel somehow that if I have more thrills, more excitement, more drama, that’s so cool, I want that. So this is the individual saying, I would like to experience more of my individuality by having these experiences. So we want, we think if we keep lining up better experiences, that’s the way to go. So this trajectory keeps going on and on and on and on, for for a long time. Until we start seeing, certainly one fine day, it’s just not satisfying us. It’s just not paying off, it’s getting more and more diluted, it’s like I can’t get it, I can’t get what I really want. So this feels very sort of depressing. But it’s actually a huge turning point. Because we can make a U turn. And we can start going backwards to source. And this is the journey of evolution. So involution going out, evolution coming back. And when we make that U turn, I think this is a big point in our journey, because even though we are still got ways to go, the it’s imminent, it’s imminent, it’s just gonna take X amount of time, once you reach that point, so I feel very excited when I come across a person who was making that U turn right in front of my eyes. So big deal, it’s a big deal. And then of course, there’s a series of quantum shifts that happen that speed us along, back to source. So we kind of go away from involution where we are, you know, the fear of missing out, right, that’s very commonly talked about. We’re always thinking, oh, somebody said, this cruise is so good. I gotta check this out. I gotta check out this concert. I got to check out this. We go from that to the joy of missing out, right? We’re so happy to be missing out of experiences, because we don’t no longer need experiences for fulfillment. We are finding inner fulfillment. So this is like a big picture.

Rick Archer: Look, yeah, designers, and I would say that doesn’t mean that everybody is going to have to quit everything. They’re doing cold turkey. Right? You know, there’s, Jesus said, you know, Seek ye first the kingdom of heaven and all else should be added unto thee. He also told the rich guys it’s easier for rich man for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom. of heaven. So give away everything to the poor and follow me. And they said no way. But um, but still, I mean, I don’t know, you haven’t given up everything you have a family, a nice house and, you know, career and all that stuff. And but you’ve added, you could say you’ve added a second element to your life, which is this the spiritual dimension, which has actually enhanced all that stuff. And it made you more successful. So I think that’s an important point. Yeah, yeah.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Yeah, I think there’s a huge point right there, which I want to actually emphasize, when you’re talking about letting go of everything, you know, what does that really mean? Since we live in a very materialistic state of mind, we think Letting go means I have to sell my house, or to sell my car, I have to, you know, move away from my family or whatever. This is totally not the case. It’s totally not the case. But a more important thing is you do have to let go, but your inner attachment and the way you relate to these things has to be completely, radically different. So you’re there. But at the same time, internally, you’re in a very neutral place. It’s, it’s you’re more neutral and impersonal. Compared to previously, you think you care by being attached, but you really learn to care without being attached, which is slightly different, which is, which is something unusual. Yeah,

Rick Archer: I think the inner fulfillment enables one to engage in the activities of life without being attached. Let’s say you were a popper and living on the homeless person living on the street had very little money, you’d be very attached to every possession, and if somebody gave you $10, it’d be a big deal. And if you lost $10, it would be a big deal. But you know, if you’re a millionaire, then you know, you just things can come and go, and you gain 1000 here and lose 1000. There, it’s not that big a deal. So the inner fulfillment, that what we’ve been talking about today, enables one to have a proper relationship with means of outer experience, and not to be overly caught up in it, but still to be able to enjoy it.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Exactly. And I think to make that even more concrete, relationships, which is such a relatively complex topic, as a finite being, when we engage with relationships, we are necessarily trying to extract fulfillment out of that relationship. That’s just how we, that we feel natural, that’s what we want. But when you reconnect with infinity, with your essence, with the source of everything, you get that in abundance. In other words, you’re a millionaire, you feel like a millionaire. And now, it doesn’t mean you walk away from relationships. You are still in relationships, but your fundamental relationship with relationships is different. You are there to share. And you’re not greedy and poor, you are you have a lot to offer, and share and radiate love, light fulfillment. So this dramatically changes real world relationships. Because when you don’t get what you want, it doesn’t affect you in the same way. It just doesn’t. So relationships, guess what, they actually become really good for a change. Because we stop fixating on wanting them to be better, it actually gets better.

Rick Archer: Right, another way of putting it as if two people are both sort of empty, than both are in gotta get mode, you know, taking mode. And so both are trying to take nobody’s giving nobody gets. But if both are full, then both are just sort of overflowing. And there’s just a sort of amplification of fulfilment of the individual fulfillment. But the fulfillment is not dependent upon what is coming from the other person. That’s just icing on the cake, because the fulfillment is already there within.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Exactly, exactly. And the only thing I would add to that is it doesn’t have to be both people, because I can see helps 1000 People asking this question. I’m not sure my partner is into this stuff as much as I am. Yeah, I agree. Don’t fret, because it’s not doesn’t mean it’s, it’s hopeless, or you can’t make this work, in fact, that think of that as an accelerator, because, in fact, it will make you even go for a higher standard, because you can be totally even more purely unconditionally loving. When there’s a partner who doesn’t quite get it. Who doesn’t see it, who doesn’t agree with you? Oh, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. ET is not dependent on that. So you don’t have to hold your breath for your partner to reach some, whatever you think is the level they should reach. You never know what level anybody is, number one. Number two, focus on yourself, you know, just connect with the source of everything. That’s what I’m saying.

Rick Archer: Right? Here’s a question from dijanna, vode, voge, Novick in Toronto. Can you talk more about letting go of everything? What does that mean? And how does one remain more open?

Suresh Ramaswamy: Turns out, my next book is about all about letting go. So there will be lot more, I’ll be saying about letting go. But let me say this. Usually, we are operating as what we see our identity identity as a finite self. And operating as a finite self letting go looks a certain way. It’s like, I had a phone and you want a phone? Okay, fine, I’ll let it go. I’ll give it to you. That’s what it looks like I let it go. So you can have it. This definition of letting go changes, we started letting go into infinity. Because what we start seeing is a we’re not a finite self, we are much bigger, we are actually essence. And as essence, you’re this more fuzzy identity, you’re gonna have the small identity, you’re this much more amorphous identity. And from that place, that you don’t see everything as distinctly separate. It’s almost like in my own fuzzy identity, everybody is already kind of in that field. So there isn’t a distinct me and letting go of me to you. It’s all me. So within this field, I’m going to release something. And so the letting go starts looking quite different. That’s the letting go, I’m really talking about expansion of consciousness. And then in that expansion, we release whatever we receive or clinging to. And it’s an inner letting go. So it has nothing to do with physical movement of objects, etc. Right, you can still have your car, but you just realize it’s parked in my garage doesn’t mean it’s my car. It’s just parked in my garage. It’s a very different relationship. Nice. Okay, so

Rick Archer: we’re almost reaching the end of our time here. And I’m sure there’s a dozen things that we haven’t talked about that we could talk about. But is there anything you know, uppermost in your mind that you really want to touch upon? Before we wrap it up?

Suresh Ramaswamy: I’m delighted, we’ve touched on so many, I think very important things. Maybe there’s a couple of things I’ll touch on quickly. One is, I think this direct relationship is what I encourage people to move towards. So we have a tendency that we think we need a lot of intermediaries to access truth. We’ve got to start looking directly at let’s say, infinity is the word I like to use, and cultivating this direct relationship with infinity. And I feel that becomes the primary thing. And we are less distracted by various other resources along the way. Not to say nothing else helps. But the primary thing is the infinite, the relationship with the infinite. The second thing I’d say is working with light. I mean, I feel like we have we didn’t get a chance to talk about the planetary sort of collective consciousness and so on, which is a big topic on its own. But all I’d like to say is, if we just look at the newspaper headlines, it can be kind of dismal. And it evokes in us a fearful response. We feel like Oh, my God, what’s going to happen to the planet and there’s 100 things to worry about. I feel that approach, which is based on the mind looking at something taking the usual reductionist, reductionistic approach, breaking it down, fixating on problems judging who are the heroes, who are the villains, and now saying, What do I need to do? Shifting from that to a state of beingness? Where we say, well, let me see what’s already there. And if you look at the deeper layers of what’s already there, so actually pretty good stuff. There’s incredible stuff on the planet right now. And so when you step into that, and that becomes an inspiration to say this is so good, how do I make it even better not from a place of love, but a Place of unity and inspiration. And that brings out a different quality now you can still engage in helping the planet. But it comes from a different place. And I feel that’s what’s really needed, not running around in fear. And there’s things like light emanation, I talk about which you can look up on YouTube and my website. So I want to get into that. So, I think working with light can be a significant game changer. And so that’s what I would encourage everyone to look at, because for a long time, our evolution is bullock carts trudging along, and there comes a point when we start working with light, where we can step into the, you know, supersonic era. And this is also requires understanding the nature of light, and also nature of transmission of light, where, how can we pick up a higher vibration and, and, through osmosis through attunement, through resonance, we can use that to lift ourselves up. So we play an active role. It’s not a passive thing, but it is a real thing. And so I would encourage everyone to look at that, if that speaks to you.

Rick Archer: Yeah. I mean, it’s true, I feel like the the world really needs a lot of people to evolve quickly now. And, and because that’s what the need is, that’s what the opportunity is. And so it’s, it’s, uh, you know, make hay while the sun shines kind of situation where we, we can hop on that supersonic jet, you know, and, and really make a lot of progress if we’re so inclined if we seize the opportunity.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And tune in to high people who you think are, you know, high consciousness high, why people, such as, you know, people, you know, that are on the show, you have like hundreds that you can pick who you have the resonance with. And that resonance is the key to feeling into that. So. So I feel very excited, actually, about the future of humanity. Not so scared. I’m more excited.

Rick Archer: Yeah, me, too. I think we talked about this last week with Dwayne Elgin, I think there there is going to be some chaos. But I’m really excited to the possibility of Brett, you know, working through that chaos or his job. Yeah, Joanna Macy uses the term, we have to go through it. And on the other side, things could be pretty amazing.

Suresh Ramaswamy: Absolutely, absolutely. And that doesn’t have to be a promise that we will find out centuries from now. If you tune into the frequencies of light, you can feel that now. Yeah. And you can operate inspired by that. And I think that’s the cool thing. We don’t have to sit around and wait for some war to end somewhere. Before we feel good. You know, we can lift up our frequencies right now. So I think that’s very, I feel very optimistic. And a lot of the reason is because of viewers. Like you right now, people watching this hearing this, you are the reason I’m optimistic, because I know. You are right at the cusp of something absolutely fantastic. And if you’re ready to make the leap, there is the support for that.

Rick Archer: That’s great. That’s a perfect note to end on. I certainly couldn’t have said it better. So So Thanks so much. I really enjoyed having this conversation with you. And I hope we have more in the future and we can stay in touch.

Suresh Ramaswamy: I would love to do that. Thank you. I mean, I’m again, both you and Irene. I really appreciate what you’ve been doing such a dedicated way for the years and years, I think is remarkable because it’s truly shifting the collective understanding of what awakening is, and giving concrete examples every week of what that might look like. So, thank you,

Rick Archer: thank you Suresh. So, to those who have been listening or watching here again, as Suresh his book just be has dozens of different techniques and practices in it. Now, I’ll be linking to it on his webpage on his page on as well as to his webpage and YouTube channel. And aside from the book Suresh is what are some ways people can interact with you?

Suresh Ramaswamy: I would say the best thing is my website, my name Suresh A link to it that’s too complicated. Just be will take you to the same place. And those you will find numerous things like a hammer retreat coming up August, I have several things going on mentoring programs, etc.

Rick Archer: and direct and retreat or online retreat. This is going to be in person in

Suresh Ramaswamy: San Diego. Okay. So maybe next year I’ll do more online stuff. But my mentoring program is online so you can join that from anywhere in the world. That’s an ongoing thing. Another website I would recommend checking out is my nonprofit, which is radiant Radiant So I’ll let you take a look at that. Okay,

Rick Archer: I’ll link to that too. Great. Well, thanks so much. And thanks to those who have been listening or watching, if you go to and look under the future interviews menu, you’ll see who we have scheduled for the coming months and every month we scheduled for more people and so the list is kind of keeps shifting along as time moves. So great seeing you all are not seeing you but having you here and we’ll see you for the next one. Thank you