254. Panache Desai Transcript

Panache Desai – BATGAP Interview (# 254)

October 19, 2014

{BATGAP theme music plays}

Rick:      Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer. Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of interviews with spiritually awakening people, and to find out more and perhaps support our efforts, go to www.BATGAP.com, B-A-T-G-A-P. We’ll go into more details of that at the very end.

My guest today is Panache Desai. Panache is a contemporary thought leader and author, whose message of love and acceptance has drawn thousands of people from around the world to his seminars and workshops.  He is on the faculty of the Omega Institute and the Kripalu Center for Yoga and Health. So welcome Panache.

Panache:            Thanks, thanks for having me on, it’s great to be here with you.

Rick:      I first became aware of you, as did many people, when you were on Oprah’s Super Soul Sunday show. I’ll tell you my first impression, my first impression was: “Okay, this guy was born at quite a high level of consciousness – people come in at different levels – and he was probably born into a very spiritual family. He has a good heart, a brilliant mind, now the question is: how effective can he be in enabling others to awaken or rise to a higher level of awareness?”

Because some teachers are really just good at describing their own experience and the audience sits there patiently and listens, and gets inspired and goes home, and doesn’t have any permanent effect from it. And other teachers are somehow able to bring about some kind of shift in their listeners or students’ awareness. My estimation or opinion is, you know, worth a pile of salt, but I feel in reading your book and listening to a number of recordings and so on, that in most respects you score pretty highly on that second part.

And at the same time, I bet you [that] even you feel that, and correct me if I’m wrong, that you would like to be even more effective than you are, and that sometimes there is a gulf between what you are saying and what people are hearing, and what kind of a benefit or effect they get. What do you say?

Panache:            Well I think that when you are sharing a message, especially when there is an energetic undertone to it, that really is a catalytic turnover, an agent, there is always going to be a distance between what is expressed and what is heard. And sometimes you are ahead of your time, sometimes you are actually laying a foundation for something to be evidenced 100 years from now.

And so I’m clear that more than the words, it is about the presence, and it is about having the courage to embody who I am being, my soul signature. And that somehow, in some incredible way that has nothing to do with me, it reminds people that they are that as well.

Rick:      Yeah, that’s good. And a lot of teachers say and a lot of people experience that when they associate themselves, in one way or another, with a teacher. That it is not so much the words that are spoken; it is the resonance or the presence or the transmission that is hopefully having an effect.

Panache:            Yeah, but you know, it’s funny because for me all of this is very strange. And even to this day it is very strange. I was, as you said, born in a state of awareness that everyone is trying to attain, or everyone is trying to move into, yet for me it is absolutely normal. Of course being Indian, we have this 5,000-year-old tradition where these states of consciousness and these states of awareness have been demonstrated over and over again.

And also being Indian, there is a very clear understanding that it is not about information, it is not about teachings, it is not about the words necessarily, but it is actually more about the presence, or the energy, or the actual vibrational signature of that individual. And that is why people will walk days, thousands and thousands of miles, and take the whole family, just to be in the presence of someone who has had this experience.

You are very right in saying that there is definitely a difference, because you can go to those lectures and seminars and just hear somebody’s mental extrapolation of what it is to be enlightened. However, when you are in the presence of someone who has actually been there and felt that, and embodies that, it is catalytic, naturally, and it is a fact.

And ultimately what’s being expressed through me is going to become normal, it’s just that right now people have moved so far away from their essential nature that it has an impact. My overarching impact is to become completely ineffective and to retire. And so I’m doing the best that I can to retire myself and become ineffective in as short a time as possible.

Rick:      I have a feeling you won’t be retiring in this lifetime.

Panache:            My hope is that that happens. My hope is that we use the same mediums that we have right now that are propagating the fear and the separation, to start to propagate the love and the oneness that we all know we really embody and share together. And that if we can actually start to do that in a way that isn’t obvious, and in a way that isn’t even spiritual, but in a way that is very mainstream and accessible, we can very quickly start to activate that same evolutionary impulse in millions of people, without them even knowing.

Rick:      Yeah, and that does seem to be happening. If you compare what is going on right now with what was happening in the 50s, or even the 60s, it is a night and day difference. There is just such a flood of interest and information and so on, in what we’re talking about here and what we’re going to be talking about today, that there is no comparison whatsoever.  So it does seem that there is some kind of epidemic going on, in a good sense.

Panache:            There is you know, it’s a wonderful time of flowering and yet, when you look at it, when you look at the news headlines, it looks like the world is in a rapid state of decay. But actually what is collapsing are all of the structures and systems that don’t support who we naturally are. What is collapsing is all that has, in some way, led the mechanization of human beings to the point where they can’t be intuitive and they can’t feel their emotions anymore. And so the good news is that is falling away, so that now we can come back to our intuition, come back to being human, and realize that that’s really the blessing; that’s there is something miraculous that happens when we can fully be ourselves.

Rick:      Yeah, I think we are going to talk about this quite a bit in this interview, and in a moment I want to loop back and talk about your personal story, but this idea of collapsing is something that I’ve been thinking about for decades and I have been anticipating, as have been many people who are interested in spirituality. In fact, I remember back in the 70s I read this interesting book called Prophesies and Predictions: Everyone’s Guide to the Coming Changes, by a lady named Moira Timms.

And she took ancient prophecies from all the different traditions and correlated them with what has actually been happening in the world, up until that point, and then extrapolated in terms of what we might be able to expect in the coming decades. So a lot of people in a spiritual mode have been expecting some big change, and of course there was the whole 20-12 thing, but as you say, if you look at the headlines, it doesn’t seem like things are getting better; it seems like things are getting worse. And yet, can you give an interpretation of those headlines that would actually increase peoples’ optimism; that change of a good sort is actually coming?

Panache:            Typically, when we start evolving vibrationally, the first thing that comes up is everything that we’ve repressed or suppressed or denied. So at an individual level, when people come into contact with me or they start doing this work, the first thing they experience is their vibrational density, which is their accumulated emotional content.

You see, when sadness, over time, isn’t expressed it becomes depression. When anger, over time, isn’t expressed, it becomes rage, and fear just becomes unmanageable and unworkable. Now when you look at them at a global level, what keeps the disparity in place is the fear. As much as we think we are free, your average human being exists inside their comfort zone, not realizing that their comfort zone is nothing more than a mental prison, and what keeps that mental prison in place is the fear that they have felt or experienced.

And so what is happening right now is that all of these structures and systems on a global level, that operate under the energy of fear, are actually being challenged. And that is why now it looks like everything is getting worse; it actually isn’t. It is just that all of the repressed or suppressed energy, and all of the stuff that we haven’t wanted to deal with as a species is being brought to the light of conscious awareness.

And of course now, the way mainstream media is, and even more so than mainstream media, the way the Internet allows us to have a glimpse of what’s really true and what’s really playing out, is allowing us to have an objective view of this awakening, and this acceleration. And so I know that when you look at the headlines it is one disease after another, it is one catastrophe after another, it is one potential threat of war after another, however, when you look at it from a holistic perspective where you are able to step back from it a little bit, you can just see that this is nothing more than this immature species maturing, that that’s really all it is. It is just a very immature species that is maturing.

We’re growing up, we’re getting over this stuff that separates us, and we’re beginning to realize that we are interconnected. And sometimes those growing pains are intense, and sometimes those growing pains are smooth, but nonetheless, we are talking about a maturation of a species. We are maturing, our entire planet is maturing, individuals are maturing, and also the illusion, this illusion, these concepts that we’re sold: enlightenment, happiness, and success, and all of these things that are constantly drummed into us, are beginning to be exposed for the light of what they are, that actually all of these external markers are nothing more than lies that perpetuate this imprisonment, and so it is actually very exciting.

When you see a headline that is actually catastrophic, by all means feel what is there to feel inside of you, but know that that headline is showing up because you are waking up.

Rick:      Not only you, but the world.

Panache:            Exactly.

Rick:      I interviewed Barbara Marx Hubbard about a month ago, and she is fond of using the example of a caterpillar metamorphosing into a butterfly, and you know when the caterpillar starts to undergo that change, it is a very serious situation. He begins to dissolve and ends up turning into a bunch of mush, and then in that mush there are these imaginal cells that begin to form and take the structure of a butterfly.

So I guess the question would be, and I don’t know if you or anyone can answer this, to what extent are the structures that seem so well established in society going to dissolve and crumble? For instance, can we expect the entire economy to collapse? Can we expect the various modes of food production and transportation and so on, to come to a halt, in order for a really thorough transformation to occur?

Panache:            We are right at a time where what is required is conscious nonparticipation. The only reason why a very small percentage, let’s say maybe a handful of people, run the entire global agenda, is because we let them. Just imagine right now if everyone who is watching this actually started loving and accepting themselves, which is the most revolutionary act that any human being can commit within their lifetime, and we actually started to opt out of all of the needs that are constantly drummed into us that we have to live up to, whether it be the need to be successful, the need to have money, the need to be recognized, all of these false needs, and we can actually come back to a state of being naturally who we are. We would naturally opt out of most of what this manipulation is wanting us to be a part of.

And so there absolutely is a revolution occurring, and it is an internal revolution. You see, people are a little too awake, they are a little too aware right now, and they are beginning to see through what is going on. They are beginning to recognize that world leaders interchangeable points, that it doesn’t matter who you elect, that there is a greater agenda that they are working towards that has nothing to do with the people that they represent.

In that way people are beginning to realize that corporate entities have far too much power, and they are beginning to exert a little too much control over the way governments function. And so we are alive at an amazing time, and this is absolutely about a revolution. But it is going to be a silent, conscious revolution. It is going to be an internal revolution, and the more we embrace the parts of us that we have rejected, or the parts of us that we have been told we have to fix or change or improve, the faster this external world begins to come into alignment with that greater reality.

Rick:      You know, you drive a car and you drive on planes, so you’re using gasoline and oil, and that kind of thing. And there may come a time when gasoline and oil are antiquated; they might seem like the steam engine. Or you might send your daughters to school in Florida and put them in the educational system there, but there may come a time when that educational system would seem very primitive by comparison to what we actually end up having.

So I guess the question here is: we are very much enmeshed, engulfed in a culture that has certain engrained ways of doing things, and to a certain extent we need to participate in those things, even though ultimately we may not believe in them, unless we want to go out and live on a farm and try to be off the grid or something, which most people don’t do. Is that hypocritical?

Panache:            Well, I think that you can’t stand outside of it and throw stones at it, that’s the first thing.  You have to evolve inside of it, and somehow, evolving inside of it transforms it. Here is the good news: there are a lot of major CEOs right now who are coming out of the closet as meditators, and they are beginning to now let the world know that the reason why they are successful is because they meditate. And some of them are so bold as to say that that is the sole reason they are successful.

Now I’d never heard that before. And the fact that people are coming out and saying that in the media, now provides people a new blueprint for what it means to be successful. And it even evolves the whole word ‘success’ into a whole other boundary, a whole new stratosphere has evolved. And so, do we participate in the existing system? Yes, but we develop inside of it to the point where we make it extinct. See, we can’t opt out of life and be effective.

I was just with Oprah at The Life You Want tour in New Jersey, and one thing that she said that really struck me, she said, “If I didn’t have all of this money, you wouldn’t listen to me. if I wasn’t as successful as I am, why would you listen to me?” And so by all means we have to participate, understanding it is an illusion, and we have to participate at the highest level because that is the only way it is going to shift. That is how we have a voice, that is how we have reach, that’s how we have impact, so it is not hypocritical; it is just paradoxical. And that is the nature of duality, it is just paradoxical.

Rick:      My favorite word, by the way. And I didn’t really mean to say you’re hypocritical or anything…

Panache:            No, no, no.

Rick:      I’m just playing devil’s advocate a little bit.

Panache:            No but that is for everyone, because I know we all feel … everyone who is watching this, to a certain degree feels like, “Okay, maybe I could be doing more,” or “I fundamentally understand that the systems I’m participating in are flawed, maybe I should move to a farm.” So we all have that inner answer, so I just wanted to clarify that for the audience, that how it changes is by you playing it from an awakened state. How it changes is by you playing the game from a heightened level of consciousness.

Rick:      Is that what you meant when you said we have to participate at the highest level?

Panache:            Yes.

Rick:      So we might be an actor or a politician or a bus driver or whatever, but if we are doing that form a heightened level of consciousness, then we are having a totally different effect than we would otherwise. That’s what you are saying.

Panache:            Yes, you are absolutely changing everything because you, embodying that state, you are impacting everything and everyone around you. You know, our job really is the excuse we get to love people, or the Divine gets to love its creation. And so just imagine being a bus driver, and just imagine being at peace with yourself, and being able to then impact all of the people that are on that bus, and then being able to impact in all the towns and cities that you drive through on a regular basis.

It is not about the stature or the status of your life; it is about the degree to which you are connected right here, in the midst of even the most mundane activities.

Rick:      Is that what you mean by ‘soul signature?’ You have a book here: Discovering Your Soul Signature. So would your soul signature be the sort of …. Well, you explain what you mean by it.

Panache:            Your soul signature is your Divine essence; it is who you really are, it is your most authentic self. And it is the part of us that has actually been conditioned out of us, predominantly. And so that’s why the journey is one of remembering it and discovering it again, and aligning with it.

You see, who we naturally are is abundant, we’re loved, we’re healthy, we’re vital, and we’re connected. Dare I say it? – we are Divine. Who we are normally is basically as we show us, as our conditioned self, or our self-image. And so it is important now that we begin to embrace the self-image, embrace the conditioning, embrace everything that is there on the level of our humanity, understand that that is the doorway to our Divinity.

So really, enlightenment is nothing more than being profoundly human. You are going to be neurotic; you’re just going to be peacefully neurotic.

Rick:      Ahhh…I don’t know. Okay, here’s a little devil’s advocate on that one. I would agree and disagree, because I think maybe initially you could be peacefully neurotic, but I think eventually, at least hopefully eventually, that Divine essences bleeds into your personality and kind of purges or heals or resolves your neurosis, and you are not always like a screwed up enlightened person; you eventually become actually nicely integrated and coherent on all levels.

Panache:            Well I guess another way to describe it is that when you stop having a problem with you, at that point your soul naturally emanates through you. So there is a certain version of oneness that is conformity and all of a sudden egos are going to disappear, and people are going to be walking around like zombies, drooling out of one side of their face – that’s just not sexy. That is not our eventual destiny.

We are here to express oneness uniquely, and our ego is our ally in that, it is just that we don’t understand its function. We are so quick to get rid of our ego; we don’t realize that in the absence of our ego we would be missing the point. Now an integrated ego, now that’s interesting, because when you can embrace your identity and you can embrace your neuroses, and you can embrace who you are, there’s freedom in that. That is really where the freedom arises from. That’s the clarification, is that we’re not going to stop being who we are; we are just going to stop having a problem being who we are. And then our soul shines through us in a tangible way that is evidenced by the impact that it has on the people around us.

Rick:      Yeah, I interviewed Shinzen Young a couple of months ago, he is a Buddhist teacher. And he was saying that there are certain groups in Buddhism that he feels are rather zombie-like in their behavior, that somehow the nature of their spiritual practice has made them kind of unnatural. And then he mentioned other aspects of Buddhism, or other branches of it in which people are much more spontaneous and lively and natural. So it would seem that there are, in some cases, spiritual practices or approaches which suppress your naturalness, rather than embrace it and enliven it.

Panache:            You know that zombie-like state of absolute communion really is the objective here. I describe it like this: a house that has three floors and the first floor is the personality, which is where you are completely your personality. The second floor is a blending of the personality and the soul, and the third floor is completely soul; there is no personality present.

The optimal state is that middle floor, because that is the place from which you can bring all of your soulful qualities into the human experience. So right now, if I were to go into that completely expanded state, I’d be unrelatable and everyone would be looking at us going, “Well that is all well and good, but why do I want to live in a nonfunctioning state?” And that is not it. It is not a nonfunctioning state; it is actually a completely integrated state where you can function, but you are bringing that quality of your soul signature into everything that you do. That’s the state.

Rick:      Nice. There is a Sanskrit phrase, I forget the Sanskrit but the English of it is, “The lamp at the door” – that you kind of live at that juncture point of the doorway between the absolute and the relative, and incorporate both in your awareness and experience.

Panache:            And I think the Eastern world has a lot to do with the cultivation of that zombie-like state, because quite honestly, there’s a belief system and a structure that supports that. If I was in India and I was in that state, people would clothe me and feed me and bathe me, and occasionally show me a Bollywood movie or something, they would take care of me. But if I was in that state in the West, they would probably put in a mental asylum and think, “What the hell is wrong with him?” You know, because in the Eastern world, no self is a blessing, and in the Western world, no self is an abomination.

Rick:      Yeah, there have been some great saints though, you must admit, like Anandamoyi Ma or Neem Karoli Baba, who were not very functional, even Ramana Maharishi – not terribly functional in terms of … you know, he might have had a hard time running a business – but they just had a profound impact on a lot of people, and that was the role they had to play.

Panache:            Yeah, they were anchor points at a particular point in time and space, to evidence to humanity what was possible for them, that’s not the absolute goal of where we are heading; they were just these wonderful hub stations of possibility and presence. And that was a magnificent time at that particular juncture in human history; there were so many human beings who were embodying this state of just absolute Divine connection. Nityananda was another one, and there were so many incredible beings around at that time.

And I just felt like it was a conspiracy that happened, that all these incredible beings decided to come down and evidence the highest form, so that we at least have a blueprint of what that is and what it feels like to be around that.

Rick:      Yeah, they were also generators. Look at the impact, the rippling over generations that each of them had. Each of them had disciples who had disciples, and so on. And so they each kind of created this wave of awakening, perhaps more effectively than if they had been scurrying around doing some relative task; all they had to do was sit and be, and it sent out waves of influence over time.

Panache:            And you know Rick I have to tell you, even today, it is somewhat of a challenge for me. Because there are days when I’m in that state of just staring out of my window in awe, and not really wanting to … because you see, you’re not really driven by the same social drivers as everyone. You get to a point where, it’s kind of this dance between ‘nothing really matters’ and ‘everything matters.’ And there are days where it is like nothing matters and I’m just in that vibrational state of communion with everything, and there is nothing else, and there are other days where I have daughters that kept me engaged in the world, because I have this certain level of attachment now to the world and the outcome of the world. But in the absence of them you know, I wouldn’t have had that.

It is funny, in the absence of my daughters, there is really nothing keeping me tied to the human experience. So it is funny how now I fluctuate between ‘nothing really matters’ and ‘everything matters.’

Rick:      Do you fluctuate alternately or do you live both at the same time?

Panache:            Well it is kind of spontaneous actually. It is like this seamless ebbing and flowing between these different states of experience. For the most part now, what I’m discovering is that there is more of ‘nothing really matters’ beingness that is all encompassing, that is the dominant experience, it is really the dominant part. And then you know, I’m still 36, so there are some immature aspects of my personality that I have to embrace, and still some fearful aspects of myself that I have yet to fully integrate.

So there is that, but it is all of it. That’s why I think that the more expansive or the more inclusive we make enlightenment, the better. Because otherwise we’ve got this too narrow of a definition of what it is, and people are constantly striving towards some goal or ideal that they are never going to obtain.

It used to drive me nuts, I had a Buddhist monk friend and you know, the Buddhists love to talk about the middle path – it’s their favorite teaching, this middle path. And I just said, “This middle path thing is giving me a headache. It just feels like it is too narrow. Explain it to me.”

And so he starts roaring out loud and whacks me on my back, and he is a very chubby monk and a very sweet guy. He kind of looks like the chubby, happy Buddha that you have, with his hands up in the air – the abundance Buddha. And so he whacked me and we’re having a good laugh, laughing at me for 5 minutes, and then he suddenly stopped and said, “Make the middle path so big that you can no longer fall off.”

And I’m like, “Okay, that’s cool.” So that means: become so inclusive of who you are and life, that it is all a part of your being, then you can never fall off.

Rick:      I love that point, yeah. I think you mentioned that in your book too. As you were speaking I was reminded of a Nisargadatta quote, which I just looked up. He said, “Wisdom is knowing I am nothing, love is knowing I am everything, and between the two my life moves.”

Panache:            That’s beautiful. I love that. He delivered the same lecture for 20 years. “If somebody would find me here, what would they have to say?” is another great one.

Rick:      But I think what you are saying is really important, because it seems to me there’s a natural human tendency to cubbyhole themselves, to sort of isolate ourselves in a particular belief or a particular religion. Or these days there are nondual people around, who sort of take a stand in the nondual perspective, or at least the understanding of it, to the exclusion of the dual. And when you start talking about relative things, they think you’re just playing around with distractions and illusions. But what you’re saying is [that there is] this all-inclusive, all-engulfing, all-encompassing awareness which harmonizes and contains all possible paradoxes, and therefore is unperturbable.

Panache:            That is exactly right.

Rick:      Let’s loop back a bit, because you’ve alluded to your birth and your upbringing and so on. I think you have a very interesting story and if I don’t get you to tell it, there are people who are going to email me and say, “Why didn’t you get him to tell his story? I always like to hear the blow-by-blow description of how they came to be who they are.” So let’s start at the beginning and maybe I’ll throw in a few questions as you go along.

Panache:            Well I was born into an Indian family in 1978, and my parents, before they had me, had a still-born baby girl. And so being Indian, we had encountered living saints for multiple generations and at the loss of this child, when my mother was 3 months pregnant with me; she went to India to be blessed by one of these beings for my birth.

Rick:      Who was that? Do you mind saying?

Panache:            Well she went to Ganeshpuri, to Nityananda’s shrine and Muktananda was there at the time. And so Muktananda said, “Basically, he has come to do God’s work. Don’t worry.” I was born into a house that had a meditation room in their living room, and we were a first generation immigrant family so we had like 14 people living in one house. And so having a meditation room in one of the rooms was a big deal. And actually the room that my grandfather put the meditation room in was the living room, where everyone was ordinarily watch TV and goof off. So all of a sudden there is a meditation center there.

I spent the first five years of my life with my grandmother, in that room. She would recite mantras and chant the Guru Gita every day. She was a very devotional woman. I never forget, she always had this aroma of coconut oil – it would just you hungry, it’s just such a good smell, and when I smell that I think of her.

My house was like an ashram. There was incense everywhere, you know, you can imagine. So I was exposed to this devotional tradition at a very early age. Even as a child, when I would get upset or having a hard time, as soon as I crossed the threshold of that meditation room, I would stop and just be at absolute peace. And so that vibrational space was home for me – one of devotion, one where everyone’s focus was on the Divine, and everyone’s heart was open to something greater.

In India we also understand that God is infinite, so I grew up with picture of everybody, like Jesus, Buddha and Mohamed, and every great saint and mystic you can imagine was on my wall. And so I was every religion, I was every religion.

Rick:      Hindus tend to be that way; they tend to be very inclusive.

Panache:            Yeah, you know we cover all of our bases. That way when you transition, someone is going to be there to meet you.

Rick:      Right, you can’t go wrong.

Panache:            Exactly! If you’re going to have a relationship with the Divine, have an infinite relationship with the Divine. It also works out great Rick for school holidays – I was every religion, so that was fantastic too. I got presents for every holiday. So that was my life, it was a very interesting life because when you are Indian, on the weekends you watch Bollywood movies and you go see spiritual teachers. It is kind of what you do.

London had a big Indian community and so a lot of the saints and rishis from all traditions would come there and do programs, and the weird thing is that they would all say to me, “We’ve been waiting for you,” and I would just look at them like they were strange. And this has been an ongoing theme from my early childhood and all the way into my teens.

Rick:      So just out of the blue, your mother would take you up to the saint and he would say, “Oh, we’ve been waiting for you,” kind of like the Dalai Lama or something?

Panache:            Yeah, and you know one of the things you do in the program is you have this thing called darshan, which is where you basically go and get the blessing of the saint or the realized master. And we would wait for an hour or two for darshan and get there and they would say, “Oh, we’ve been waiting for you. When you are older, come see me in my ashram,” and they would also say, “Thank you for incarnating,” which I found very strange, as a child.

Rick:      Do you have any idea, or did any of them say, or do you now have any idea who in the heck you were … this big, special guy that has come to earth? I mean, do you have any sense of past lives or what sort of entity you may had been and incarnated as?

Panache:            You know that’s a great question, and it is a question that I won’t answer on purpose.

Rick:      But you do have something, you just don’t want to say publicly?

Panache:            No, because I think ultimately it is not about me and it is not about me being the reincarnation of somebody, it is not about that. It is about being here, embodying this presence at this time. There are so many people, and when Benjamin Creme was running around with the whole prophecy about the Maitreya being born in London, I get that all the time. Other people experience Christ, other people experience Krishna, you know, I call it a game of ‘pin the avatar on Panache.’ And everyone has been trying to do it my whole life … trying to say, “Who is this guy?” And based on their belief system and ideology, they will all try to pin the avatar.

And ultimately all I can say is, there is an unbroken lineage, this unbroken lineage is here to support humanity. What I can say is that I am definitely a part of that unbroken lineage.

Rick:      So without mentioning specifically whom you might have been in previous lives or anything, would you say that you are an avatar?

Panache:            I wouldn’t say that, but people say that about me.

Rick:      Okay, and let’s define what an avatar is just to put it in context.

Panache:            An avatar is an incarnation of Divine beings. So for example, you can have a reincarnation of Krishna or Shiva, you can have an avatar of a particular consciousness that comes into human form to just help remind humanity about what their potential is. That word gets used around me a lot.

Rick:      And there are partial avatars, and more completed avatars, and full avatars, and all degrees. I suppose we could almost say that in a sense, we are all avatars because we all have that spark that is the Divine, right?

Panache:            That’s right, and plus, also the other thing that is the reason why I don’t make a big deal about all of that is that there is no hierarchy, and that in oneness everybody is that, and really that is the point now. It is not really about an individual coming back to save humanity; it is about all of us embodying who we are and doing it collectively.

So the age of the guru and the teacher is basically over; this is an age of personal empowerment, and really that is the only way it can happen. And so again, people will be here to remind us of who we are, but for the most part this is about us waking up to ourselves.

Rick:      There is this saying, and you’ve probably heard it, “The next Buddha is the sangha.” Have you heard that one?

Panache:            That’s right, that’s exactly right.

Rick:      Yeah, I must say, I’ve derived a lot of benefit from association with a couple of gurus. In fact, you see a picture of one behind me there. It is not over for me in terms of the benefit I derive from visiting Amma in this case, and there are many people in the world who gain a lot from seeing teachers, so I wouldn’t want to put that down.

Panache:            No, no, that’s not putting it down, it’s just that you see, as long as there is a need, those incarnations will occur. We are coming to a point in our development as a species where there will no longer be that need. That’s what I mean.

Rick:      Don’t you think that there will always be some lights that are brighter than others? Some people who exude more Shakti, more spiritual energy than others, and whose association with whom would be beneficial?

Panache:            No, we’re moving into a point where everyone’s light and everyone’s contribution is being leveled out, so what is happening right now is a great harmonizing and balancing. Whereas before you would need individuals who had gone through all kinds of interesting incarnations to be able to embody this type of conscious, we are moving to a point where people won’t need to be reminded anymore because they’ll have remembered.

Rick:      Yeah … so what you are saying is enlightenment, or whatever we want to call it, will become more the norm and it won’t be a big a deal.

Panache:            Exactly, exactly, and so that’s why there are still lots of incredible beings that have arrived and I respect them deeply however, that promise or that possibility will be actualized, making the role and the function redundant.

Rick:      Yeah, it’s just that I still suspect there is always going to be a range; it’s natural. You know, there’s a range of levels of evolution, people are born at varying levels of evolution and they continue to progress, so I can’t imagine – maybe my imagination is limited – but I can’t imagine that we will necessarily have a world where everybody is at the same level of enlightenment.

Panache:            That’s where we’re headed.

Rick:      You think so?

Panache:            Yeah, because you see here is the funny thing, we all came from that level of enlightenment, and we’re all experiencing that to the degree to which we can right now. However, what is happening is that everyone is being accelerated through their evolution. So humanity’s next evolutionary leap is spiritual and so right now we are being accelerated through that evolutionary leap! Literally to the point where we become luminous.

So what that means is that your inner light will become so powerful that it will be evidenced through your physical form. Just like those medieval depictions of saints, where they drew those halos around them. That’s really going to happen, we’re moving in that direction. And again it might not be immediately, but within three lifetimes I guess – three generations – we’ll be in that state.

And so you need a teacher as long as you need teaching, but the very second you realize that there is nothing to learn anymore, you don’t need a teacher. Now that doesn’t mean that we’re not grateful for all of the teachers that have come; of course we are, because they’ve played their part in us evolving beyond the need [for teaching].

Humanity is on the verge, for the first time, of realizing that there is no need for anything external. That’s where we’re moving to, and that shift cannot occur as long as there is any dependency on anyone or anything.

Rick:      Well, when a baby is born, a baby is utterly dependent upon its parents – would die without them, without some kind of care. And then the baby eventually grows up, to the point where maybe that baby is caring for the parents – the roles have reversed.

I don’t know, it would seem to me, and I don’t want to beat the point to death, but it would seem to me that there are always going to be some people who are a little bit farther along the path than others, and who could inspire and help uplift the others.

Panache:            Maybe I can explain it this way: if a baby was born and the baby way just left to be in its natural state, that baby wouldn’t need anyone subsequently to remind it of its natural state.

Rick:      No, but it would need food and all that stuff.

Panache:            Yeah, yeah, so all of that stuff will still be there, but the spiritual need or the role will no longer be necessary, because actually what is going to happen is people are going to stop messing with what is natural. So the conditioning and all of that stuff that happens is going to end, to the point where when a being is born, they will be left in that state of oneness and that state of completion, entirely. We’re a little ways away from that but that’s where we’re heading. We’re heading onto a plane of consciousness where everyone is a guru, everyone is a teacher, everyone is embodying their highest principle and their highest potential. And at that point there is no hierarchy anymore.

Rick:      Well that kind of brings us back to your story actually, because you were born in this spiritual family and you were very attuned as a little kid. And then you kind of hit a rough patch when you were a teenager, so you didn’t quite stay in your natural state; you kind of fell from it or got kicked out of it for a little while. So tell us about that phase.

Panache:            Well I was always in the natural state however, being normal was too painful. So again, trying to conform to what everyone else was expecting of me, and trying to live up to what society defines as normal is painful. And so I got to a point in my life where everyone around me was doing separation as their way of being in the world, and here I am, and I couldn’t buy into separation.

However, there’s a whole world around me that is convincing me that that is normal. And so at a certain point, when enough people tell you that pain, lack and scarcity and fear are normal, out of some need to belong, which you have as a teenager, you contort yourself into a box that you don’t even fit into, in order to find some shred of love and acceptance from somebody outside of you. And of course it didn’t work.

It was just a very painful time because I think that, especially as teenagers, we are trying to find some sense of autonomy and some sense of being individualized, and we strive for that. However, we don’t have that modeled to us in a way that is holistic, we don’t have it modeled to us in a way that supports our functioning in our natural state of being. So for me is was just a painful move away from what I had known, and what I had lived in, and what I had existed in.

Also being a young man was interesting too, because that’s right around the age where people are trying to assert their dominance over each other. I really had no interest in that, until eventually I had to cultivate that as a survival instinct. I mean I was just like – not a part of this world, didn’t want to be a part of any of the social convention, or any of the norm that was going on; I basically just opted out.

I wasn’t a part of a clique or a herd mentality, that wasn’t me. Needless to say, I became a bit of a target.

Rick:      Bullied and all.

Panache:            Yeah, and so the bullying ensued and of course when you are not part of a pack and you’re not in this animalistic mindset, you get picked on. And of course what further made that worse was that I went out with all the nice-looking girls! I’d rather spend my time in that vibration of love than deal with all the testosterone wars that were playing out in my school. And in my school it was very pronounced, because it was a particularly interesting neighborhood and you needed to assert yourself in that way to survive.

Rick:      Were there many other Indian kids among your peers?

Panache:            There were a few Indian kids, Pakistani kids, a lot of West Indian kids – thanks to the British Empire the Commonwealth was well-represented in my school system.

Rick:      It sounds like you did capitulate a bit and go get into a bit of sex, drugs and rock-n-roll phase there for a while.

Panache:            I did, loved it, it was awesome. Yeah, actually in some ways I found that whole time to be so enlightening?! Funny how you wouldn’t use that word with that phase, but it was so essential, because I understood the subtle nuances of what we as human beings do to avoid feeling our pain, and also the lengths that we’ll go to find some sense of love and belonging from outside of ourselves, it was a very interesting time of self-discovery for me, you know, and just observing myself in that.

And I also got involved in music, and I was involved in the whole underground music scene, which to me was fantastic. Because I was on stage with like thousands of people and I’m basically emceeing or rapping to music, and I’m already out there in that experience. And part of it didn’t make any sense to me, but now when I’m on stage in front of thousands of people, it makes perfect sense to me, because it is so natural to me.

And music was a great unifier; you know we were people from all different walks of life. You had London’s most wanted to aristocrats, all in the same room with each other. It is the great equalizer. And somehow, music allowed us all to find the sense of oneness. It kind of helped everything make sense. It made a world that didn’t make sense, make sense.

So I loved being a part of that, and the experiences I had as a part of that were priceless for me, because they really gave me an insight into just how desperate we are to be loved and accepted, and also how absolutely insane that is, to expect that to come from outside of us, because people don’t love and accept themselves.

Rick:      Was it a period of loss, feeling lost and confused, and you loved it in retrospect because of the contrast, or did you really not lose your Divine awareness and you just enjoyed the play of what you were going through?

Panache:            I’m the kind of person that I’m just doing what I’m doing and there’s nothing else that’s going on, so basically that was what was in front of me at the time and that’s just what I was doing. So I didn’t see it as a sense of loss; I saw it as an interesting experiment, actually: in belonging, not finding belonging, in finding acceptance, not finding acceptance, in rejection, in abandonment, in being celebrated, you know, in all of it.

It was just an interesting time in my life, because again, all of these experiences allowed me to relate to people. And in the absence of not knowing what separation feels like, and not knowing what abandonment feels like, or rejection feels like, or even adulation feels like, there’s no way that you can relate to other people. And so I loved those sex, drugs, and rock-n-roll years, they were great.

Rick:      I hear your daughter (baby crying in background).

Panache:            Yeah, it’s nap-time.

Rick:      Do you mind my asking what sort of drugs you experimented with?

Panache:            Basically, most of the people that were around me were smoking marijuana and doing ecstasy. I personally wasn’t really into marijuana at all, it just made me sleepy. So I did a little bit of ecstasy, things that kind of picked you up were the things that I was more inclined to.

Rick:      So you never did things like hallucinogens, like LSD or anything like that?

Panache:            Nooo, I mean all that you see, LSD was your generation and so we were too cool for that.

Rick:      We were too cool.

Panache:            Yeah, so we got involved in everything that was a part of the rave culture. And the thing that was a part of the rave culture, we would do.

Rick:      Just curious, because there are some serious researchers who talk a lot about using psychedelics as a means of exploring consciousness and all, and I would have been curious to know what kinds of experiences you had on that had you taken it, given the foundation that you already had established.

Panache:            Yeah, no, there was no LSD. LSD was a parents’ drug of choice, so we didn’t touch it.

Rick:      Yeah, you rebelled against it. But then you came out of that phase and I recall you saying that in your early twenties you had a real opening, significant. What was that?

Panache:            Well actually I realized that, I realized the fragility of human existence profoundly one night, as a result of a bar fight in my local neighborhood. You know music draws all kinds of people together, and being from East London the majority of people that I was attracted by was London’s most wanted. And so it was a very dangerous environment; it wasn’t necessarily somewhere where you felt safe. In any given moment something could happen that could literally end your life, or severely physically injure you for the duration of your existence. And I had been very blessed in the middle of it all, because I had seen all this going on but I hadn’t personally experienced it. A lot of that had to do with the friends I had at the time, they were very protective of me.

One night I ended up in the local bar by myself, actually, and took exception to the fact that I was there. Everyone in that bar knew me …

Rick:      Because you were brown-skinned or what?

Panache:            Yeah, basically, and everyone in that bar knew me but none of my immediate circle was there, and so he saw it as a perfect opportunity to engage in a bit of a physical altercation with me. He head butted me and then two other people jumped in, and everyone realized very quickly how bad of an idea that was and the bouncers came and called everyone off of me and I walked out.

And that same night, people had heard what had happened to me and I got a phone call, and basically the phone call was, “Would you like us to handle it?”

Rick:      Like kill the guy or something?

Panache:            Yeah, something like that, and I basically just said no. I took it for the experience and the wakeup call that it was, and I understood that I was done, like that life and that segment of time that I’ve carved out for that experience was over. And the next day it all ended – the music ended, I didn’t go out anymore, everything ended, the drugs ended, all of it. I just got to a point where I was just done, and it was so strange, it was like someone had tapped me on my shoulder and said, “Okay, that’s enough of that, you’re finished.”

Rick:      Yeah, I know what you mean, I made a few abrupt shifts like that myself in my life.

Panache:            Yeah, then the funny thing is that what came rushing back was spirituality. And I just sat down with my mother and said, “Mum, I’ve got to go away and live like a monk for six months.” She knew the day was coming when that conversation was going to happen, she just didn’t know it was going to happen at 21, and she said, “Okay, go,” she said, “Where are you going to go? India?”

I said, “No, not India. I want to go to America.” And I went to an ashram in Upstate New York, South Falls, and again, just lived a very simple life for six months, and I was a lousy yogi, Rick. Like seriously brother, I was so bad that I think they were going to kick me out at one point, that’s how bad I was.

Rick:      What were you doing that was so bad?

Panache:            Oh my God, like, I would go in the meditation room and instead of sitting in a proper asana, I would lie down and be snoring. I was so disrespectful, but it wasn’t that I was meaning to be disrespectful, it’s just that I felt so at home in that meditation room because it reminded me of my childhood, it reminded me of being with my grandmother and being in that space. I could finally just relax and allow all the stuff that I had accumulated to come up and wash through me. And everyone is looking at me like, “Oh my God, he’s Indian and here he is laying there, just snoring. What chance do we stand?” you know? There are some very serious yogis out there, so it was an interesting time, but it was an interesting six months actually. It was very powerful time of inner alchemy.

For my family, the connection wasn’t really with Muktananda; it was more with Nityananda, because my great grandfather and Nityananda were basically friends. Nityananda would stay at my grandfather’s house in India. Nityananda was a realized avatar that was just an incredible being, probably one of the most incredible beings we’ve had in recent years. And so they had a temple there with his energy and his presence, and so that’s why I went there. I went to reconnect with that.

Rick:      I just want to interject that I think sometimes you need to lie down and snore, if that’s what’s called for, in terms of some physiological transformation that’s taking place. It can be counterproductive to force yourself to sit there when you should be lying down and snoring.

Panache:            Yeah, well you know, the very second you make it serious, you make it part of your identity, it becomes ineffective. And so when you need to do it a certain way and that’s the only way that you can connect, then you’ve got a problem. All that means is you’ve basically upgraded your prison cell, so you’ve got a slightly nicer toilet but you’re still in jail.

Rick:      So then, you were there for six months, so at what point did this profound opening take place?

Panache:            Well actually it was weird, the ashram – just to digress a lot here – it was strange being there too, brother, because all of a sudden I would touch people and they would go into spontaneous kriyas and movements of energy, and they would fall to the floor crying, and I would know things about people, and it was just weird.

And it was particularly weird because there was a guru there, and all of a sudden people are experiencing the things that they ordinarily [would] experience from the guru, from me, which was weird, for me. And I’ve always been allergic to the ‘g’ word, you know; just don’t use that around me.  So anytime someone hits the floor and starts pranaming and says, “You’re my guru,” I’m like, “Get away from me, I’m not your guru, don’t use that word around me.”

And so that was interesting too, because it was hard to reconcile what was happening through me. Again, it wasn’t anything to do with me; I wasn’t doing it, but it was just happening through me. I went back home after that and basically was home for a month and I said to my mother, “I’ve got to go back to America. My destiny is in America.” I had a Green Card, I mean everything, the whole thing was planned out so perfectly on my behalf.

And I came back to America and just travelled and wandered around for a while until I ended up in LA. And had the experience in LA where I just experienced the Divine in its totality and the rest is history, from that moment on.

Rick:      And what precipitated that?

Panache:            I had reached a point where I basically was tired of hearing about God, and I was tired of hearing about my potential, and I basically said, “Listen, if I’m here to be a messenger and all the of these saints and rishis and yogis and monks, and all these people that have seen something in me are actually seeing something that’s real, then I need to experience what the Divine is,” because unless I’ve experienced it, I can’t sit there and look at people and tell them that this is the truth; I’m just not going to do it.

So I said, “God, if you are real, show me who or what you are, otherwise I’m not going to be who I’m here to be.” Needless to say, when you call out “God,” stuff happens. So I’m sitting there on the sofa in Venice [Beach], California, I’m experiencing wave after wave of energy moving through me – fear and sadness and anger. Basically, everything that I had accumulated over the course of my lifetime was being experienced in a very rapid way. The culmination of that experience was this light that filled the whole room, the most incredible light, and so the Divine in an infinite form. It was like a brilliant golden light, so amazing.

The feeling associated with this Presence was love, but not the human definition of the word; it cheapens it. Oprah asked me what my definition of God was, I could just answer it with silence, because any words that we use diminish what that Presence really is. I guess when you call out “God,” God kind of shows up and reveals itself, and from that point on I had no choice but to embrace my soul signature and my function and my role, in a conscious way, whereas before, prior to that, it had all been unconscious.

Rick:      Kind of works that way. There was a Doors song in which Jim Morrison shouted out, “You cannot petition the Lord with prayer!” But as a matter of fact, I’ve run into so many people who reach a point in their life where they just sort of give God this ultimatum, you know? It’s like, “Alright, I’m tired of fooling around, I want to know you, I want to see you,” or whatever, or “I’m going to sit on this rock and starve to death if you don’t reveal yourself,” that kind of thing.

And if they’re really ripe and ready to do that, very often there is some huge opening, some big shift.

Panache:            And you know what, in that moment, my whole life made sense to me. Everything that was happening through me, my whole life, even when I was in that music phase, and that drugs, sex and rock-n-roll phase, this energy was still translating through me to people, I mean their lives were shifting. The conversations they would have with me were not conversations one might have in a night club. You know, when you’ve got grown men who people fear, that are just crying because they just feel the love and the energy.

So in that moment it all made sense to me, that this energy, this Presence had been flowing through me my whole life. And that’s why all of a sudden people were just bright and shiny or sparkly, as I described them, as a child – they dove from being encumbered and heavy to being sparkly. That’s why all of a sudden as an adult, people were having all kinds of physical ailments disappear, and people were having life challenges disappear, because this energy was working through me to effect those transformations.

Rick:      Talk a little bit more about the fear and stuff that you experienced before that shift, because I think that that is also a common phenomenon [among] people. It’s as if when a jet goes through the sound barrier, there is all this turbulence before it breaks the sound barrier and then it is smooth. But a lot of people report that when they kind of breakthrough into an awakening, there is a real acceleration or purging that takes place just before that.

Or [take] the Buddha underneath the tree, he sat there and all the demons assailed him and so on, before he finally broke through, so talk a little bit more about that.

Panache:            Well fear is so interesting with human beings, because we don’t allow ourselves to experience it. So I’m thinking nature – it experiences fear, shakes it out and then moves on, but we as human beings don’t do that. And so for me, the fear that had accumulated in me was literally shaking out of my body, because it is a density, because it actually gets stored in our cells.

The interesting thing is that this was evidenced in my experience, but also in so many people that come to see me, because all of a sudden it’s like fear starts shaking out of them and then tears come. And so the emotion, the density, and density is important and here is why, because it is the distance between our soul and our identity.

Rick:      That density is?

Panache:            Density. And density is our anger, fear, and sadness that we have oppressed, suppressed or accumulated. And so what happens is, or what this energy does, is it literally brings people into experiencing their anger, their fear, and their sadness, and the distance between their soul and their identity diminishes until eventually there is no separation. And that is the complete embodiment, and that’s what happened to me, is that the anger and the fear and the sadness that might have accumulated through being in those situations, through being in relationships, having my heart broken, through being picked on and having that rage and resentment and anger, and feeling powerless and all of that inside of me, all of that was washing through me. It was almost like I had to die, or enough of me had to die in order for me to embody fully what I’m here to embody.

Rick:      Yeah, you just touched upon like 3 or 4 different Bible quotes went through my head while you were saying that, I mean there is, “The body is the temple of the soul,” there is “Not pouring old wine into new wineskins,” and I don’t know if this was the Bible but there is this, “Die before you die. So there are all these images or metaphors or teachings, traditionally, about being a fit vehicle for the Divine, and purging or cleansing or making the vehicle fit if it is not already so. And it would seem that when you are on the verge of an awakening like that, that there can be a final, big housecleaning, where the last dross of density, as you put it, gets cleaned out.

Panache:            Yeah, what’s funny is that one of our most popular events that we hold here is the Ultimate Energy Immersion, and it is a 21-day program in which we specifically address density.

Rick:      Is it in-residence?

Panache:            No, it’s a remote class, and the blessing is that people come in in a sense of separation and they’re leaving in a state of oneness, and it is just amazing. And what is happening is that it is the experiencing of their density, and being open to feeling their feelings and feeling everything that they’ve stuffed inside of them, that allows them to shorten the distance between their current reality and everything they’ve always wanted. And so it is happening. That is one of the functions of this presence at this time, is to bring everybody into harmony with themselves, so much so that there is no distance anymore between their soul and their identity. Because in that reality, it’s like that saying, “With God, all things are possible.” Well, God is inside of you, if you shorten the distance between you and the God within you, then literally everything becomes possible.

So that is what is happening – the fear, the shaking out of the fear, the sadness, anger, it’s all a part of it, it is all being transmuted, I guess, for wont of a better word, because people are now ready to embrace it in order to move on.

Rick:      Sorry for this trivial interlude, but I was reminded of Back to the Future, where Michael J Fox is going back and he is trying to get his parents to meet each other, and his mother has a crush on him, which totally freaks him out. And so he is trying to get his father to say the right things to his mother so that she’ll get interested in him, so that he can be born. And he says, “Here’s what you need to say: “You are my destiny.”” Then the guy ends up saying, “You are my density,” and screws it up.

Panache:            Just so you know, a Back to the Future reference is never a trivial interlude; that just made the whole interview, right there.

Rick:      Oh great. Maybe we’ll throw in a few other ones as we go on! But, okay, more serious now, I think this ‘density’ word is interesting because it does seem like a very dense world – very concrete, gross, solid, and that solidity, that grossness, that density, impinges on us constantly. And you were talking, towards the beginning of this interview, about being able to embody paradox and bridge two worlds, and it seems to me that the name of the game is to be able to function in this apparently dense, gross, solid world, and yet not have it rope you in, not have it overshadow you, so that the non-dense can be lived in the midst of the apparent dense without any conflict or opposition.

Panache:            That was like a Vedic Sutra.

Rick:      Was it?

Panache:            Yeah, it was, it was like a Vedic Sutra. Rick, that was lovely!

Rick:      Oh good, which part, the whole thing?

Panache:            That the non-dense can live in the presence of the dense without being affected by it, that was beautiful!

Rick:      Great, maybe next life I’ll be a rishi.

Panache:            You’re an undercover rishi.

Rick:      A stealth Rishi.

Panache:            So that’s actually perfect, because the more we embrace our own personal energetic blueprint, the less we’re impacted by the world, the less we’re impacted by our reality. And so this is why this is so important, because again, what happened to me happened inside of me; it wasn’t about anything outside of me.

My internal state shifted, and that allowed me to be a part of the world without being impacted by the world in the same way that other people were. I mean I could always see through this illusion, I’ve always seen it as it wasn’t real, I’ve always seen that there was more, and always known that however, there was a new ability to fully access that.

Once I had addressed my own personal density, I was able to see through it. It is almost like a peek through the curtain to what this reality is about, and at that point then, [I] was able to be a catalyst for others.

You are absolutely right, the more you address the personal, the more you can then open up to see and interact with the universal. And so then at that point, you are not impacted by life in the same way that everyone else is. Simply stated, you don’t personalize things as much as you used to; you have a lightness of being, you have an access to peace that is transcendent. You realize that peace is actually natural and it is always available, and that within just a few deep breaths you can get back to that state of peacefulness, even in the midst of tragic news. You are spontaneous, you are able to feel what there is to feel as it arises, you are no longer able to distract yourself, you are no longer able to engage in addictive patterns or behaviors. You basically step into the space of observation, where you put yourself under observation and just delight in all the subtle nuances of your own humanity.

And so there is a great opening that happens when people consciously address what they have been running away from, which is their pain.

Rick:      Well what you just said is a really nice de-scription of the way you function, but unfortunately descriptions are not always effective pre-scriptions. And a lot of times people hear the kind of thing you just said, and try to mimic that, but somehow it doesn’t really do it for them, you know? They’re kind of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic; they’re not getting down to the essence of it.

Panache:            Let’s give them the experience of it.

Rick:      Okay, great.

Panache:            Are you ready?

Rick:      Yes.

Panache:            Okay, close your eyes, open your palms, and just take some long, deep, cleansing breaths (several seconds of silence pass). And just rest in the awareness of your breath. It is no accident that the word for ‘breath’ and the word for ‘Spirit,’ or ‘God,’ in most esoteric traditions is actually the same word.  Just observe the inhalation and exhalation (several seconds of silence pass).  So we’re just going to let this greater Presence that you are connected to make itself known to you (several seconds of silence pass). And feel the energy in your palms – it may be manifesting right now as heat, or a pins- and-needles sensation. Some of you may be aware of almost-like an electric current, or some of you may have yet to cultivate the courage to feel again, because life has just been too traumatic, and that’s okay.

Within every human being is a dormant spiritual power or potential that just needs to be aroused. And this greater spiritual power or potential, again, is evidenced in every culture, every mythology, every tradition, across all continents. We’re just going to ask that this spiritual power be fully remembered, realized and actualized within you: that we are vibrational beings, and that in truth we exist inside a giant feedback loop, and that our emotions, in truth, are nothing more than energies in motion.

Just extend the breath down to the base of the spine, and just allow this Presence, that is love in its purest form, to come flooding in. And just allow the love that has always lived within you to merge with this infinite Presence. You are not broken, you don’t need healing and you don’t need fixing. It is time to just embrace all that you are, because I love your anger, I love your rage, I love your sadness, I love your depression, I love your fear, I love your anxiety, your worry and your stress. I love everything about you that you’ve labeled as ‘bad’ or ‘wrong.’ I love your guilt and your shame. I love all that you are because no part of you is a mistake; it all serves a purpose and a function, and it all just needs to be embraced.

So just rest and allow the density to flow through, knowing that the more it does, the more you are able to experience the oneness that is already here. And just be with your experience for the duration of our time together. I love you, and thank you for loving me. And just take some breaths rishi Rick.

Rick:      Some friends call me “Rick-Ved.”

Panache:            Yeah! That works brother.

Rick:      That was nice, I should always do that in the middle of interviews. And I hope this is just the middle, because I want to continue on a bit more with you, if we may.

Panache:            Only as long as you promise to make another Michael J Fox reference.

Rick:      I’ll work on it, or some other reference [that is] equally insightful.

Panache:            Star Wars.

Rick:      Yeah, yeah, we’ll get to Star Wars. There must be some great Yoda quotes we can bring in here. (Rick speaking in character voice says …) “Feel the force Luke,” or what is that, “There is no try; do or don’t do.”

Panache:            That’s right.

Rick:      I wanted to ask you about this thing of “You’re not broken, you don’t need fixing,” and all that stuff. When you say that, the only way I can understand that is to take it to the level of the Divine, because on that level nothing is broken, nothing needs fixing. But if we were to, just to take a ridiculous example, if we were to strap a parachute on you and drop you in the Syrian desert next to one of those guys who is about to decapitate some innocent person, and you were to say to him, “Hey, you’re cool, you’re not broken, you don’t need fixing,” I mean, you would probably be next in line for decapitation.

There are a lot of people who have a lot of things wrong with them, at least on the surface level.

Panache:            And it is interesting that you chose that example, because that example is a very interesting because actually, this particular thing that is playing out in the media is nothing more than a manipulation, so that people can fulfill the greater objective, but we will, in subsequent years, find out about. So this is an interesting one because it is not what it looks like.

Rick:      You actually mean going in and bombing ISIS?

Panache:            Yeah, well no it’s not even about bombing ISIS; it is about a greater political agenda that is playing out, that is an interesting one, but these people are nothing more than pawns that are being used to bring this into the world’s media.

It is so funny how now there is this demonization of Islam that is going on in the world’s media, it is almost as though now Islam is the problem. Islam isn’t the problem; there are so many Muslims who are so peaceful and so devoted and so committed, and there are so many esoteric branches of Islam, like Sufism, that have contributed to the upliftment of humanity.

And so it is like this manipulation needs an enemy, but sometimes that enemy is manufactured. Sometimes the enemy is manufactured so [that] people can be manipulated, because when you scare people in a very tangible way, they are easier to control and manipulate. And so that’s an interesting example, because that is a perfect example of how the media manipulates to fulfill a political objective.

So what you are hearing and what you are seeing is completely what they want you to hear and what they want you to see. but there is something else going on below the surface, that when you actually start to pay attention and you start to put all the dots together, you can see a bigger picture. So that’s that piece.

Now the second piece is: why does somebody move into a place where they can even begin to commit an act like that to another person? Well, because they have moved so far away from their natural state of being. When I’m addressing you and I’m saying, “You’re not broken, you don’t need healing, and you don’t need fixing,” when I see you, I see this beautiful spark of golden luminosity. That’s the part of you that is real, not what you’ve been told.

Rick:      And not only me, but the ISIS guy who is about to…?

Panache:            Everybody. That’s the part that’s real, that’s the part that’s whole and complete, that’s the part that is Divine, that’s the part that’s present in all of us.

Rick:      And that’s the part you’re addressing when you say, “You don’t need fixing,” and so on. So you’re not dismissing the possibility of some repair and healing and so on, to the more relative faces of a person’s structure?

Panache:            Actually, the funny thing is that when you embrace the truth of who you are at the deepest level, all of that happens automatically, all by itself. So what I’m saying is that remembering your Divinity is the solution to every single issue that you believed you have. And not only is it the solution to every issue you believe you have, but it is also the solution to every global problem that we are currently experiencing too.

Because in a world where you are fully embracing who you were, you’re not going to cut your own head off, are you? You realize very quickly that decapitating the head of another person is nothing more than chopping your own head off. Well why would you do that? You wouldn’t, you see? So there’s an interesting paradox again that’s playing out here, which is this manipulation of fear – and we’re seeing it now with Ebola too, right? There’s so much fear around Ebola and it is just being propagated, and it is being put out there in a major way, and it is just constantly being drummed into the collective psyche. And all of a sudden now it’s airborne, and it’s just this manipulation of people that is playing out, and it is a fear-based manipulation.

And while you are in that energy of fear, and you know this, the best that you can do is engage in that fight or flight mechanism, the part of the brain that is just rooted in survival. And so this is nothing more than a veil to attempt to keep people trapped in survival, and to keep people trapped in that animalistic state of being in which the only response is war, or the only response is bombing, or the only response is whatever the extreme response is.

So that is why – and again this is important because we are awakening to see through it all – we start to begin to search for a deeper truth in the midst of the misinformation that we are being fed on a daily basis.

Rick:      So do you think this misinformation is part of some kind of orchestrated conspiracy, that it is being puppeteered by I don’t know, the Illuminati or some such thing, or do you think that it is just really part of the collective consciousness, you know, that we feed on this stuff and the media obliges because it sells airtime and ad space, and so on, but it is not really being orchestrated by some powerful, small group of individuals?

Panache:            You know, I haven’t met them yet, so I can’t confirm or deny the existence of this small group of individuals. But what I can say is that if they exist, I’m sure I will meet them at some point, and that will be an interesting meeting.

Rick:      Why do you think you would?

Panache:            Well because it is a part of my purpose to eradicate all of that; that’s kind of why I’m here. So if there really is a small group of people that are manipulating the majority, then that’s a destined meeting, I’m sure, and I’m sure it will be an interesting one when it happens.

But ultimately I think that the key to freedom here, is to address our own fears. And the key to freedom here, is to begin to recognize how we’re engaging in life. Are we engaging in life from a fearful place, or are we engaging in life from an open-heartedness, and a slightly more expanded awareness, where we’re more calm and more relaxed as we navigate our daily activities?

And actually the more you begin to just breathe, stop, slow down and relax, the more you begin to disengage from those energies. And the more you disengage from those energies, the more you begin to see the bigger picture of what’s really playing out out there. And I don’t know, I mean, David Icke jumps on that band, I mean so many people are on that bandwagon, right?

Rick:      Yeah, reptilians and all that.

Panache:            Right, and again, I’m the kind of person that is very skeptical, so unless it’s happened to me, or I’ve experienced it, I don’t buy into all the ideas around it. So illuminati, if they are out there, I look forward to meeting you at some point, and I can’t wait to rid you of your controlling, fearful ways.

Rick:      By loving you.

Panache:            By hugging you.

Rick:      It’s interesting, well you were pretty young when 9-11 happened, but I remember my reaction was just like, “I’ll be darned.” It wasn’t fear, it wasn’t anything else; it was like, “All this stuff happens.” I wonder why I can watch the news every night sometimes, because how can you pollute yourself with all that horrible stuff that’s going on, but [for me], it doesn’t have any kind of effect really. I don’t think I’m numb or checked out; I think it’s just that I do tend to reside in a more Divine, if you want to call it, space.

Panache:            Rishi Rick.

Rick:      Yeah, and all this stuff just kind of seems like it’s a drama that’s playing out. And in a way it’s fascinating, like you go and see a Shakespeare tragedy or something, and it’s fascinating to see how the drama plays out. And I kind of feel like the tragedy is going to end up happy in the end, but it’s just real interesting to see how the world goes through the changes it’s going through, and what is really the significance of these specific events that freak everybody out.

Panache:            See the thing is when you start to really wake up, you can’t look at them as just isolated instances; you have to start putting them together. So I watch the news to spot trends.

Rick:      Hmm, as kind of a cosmic play unfolding.

Panache:            Yeah, because this Ebola thing has been playing out for how long now? Actually the funny thing is that about a month ago, the U.N., when it first came out and said that it has a potential to go airborne, and now all of a sudden the U.S. media is saying that it has a potential to go airborne, that they’ve underestimated it. Now how much of this is true and how much of it is just manipulated? We don’t know.

Rick:      Viruses mutate and they sometimes can go airborne eventually, when originally they can’t.

Panache:            Exactly, but again, we have to navigate our fearful response to what’s playing out, because it takes our consent. Now right now, if everyone watching this news on this Ebola thing buys into the worst case scenario and lends their energy to it, then it becomes a reality, which is exactly what they’re trying to do!

And that’s not to say be ignorant or be oblivious to what’s playing out; I’m not saying that either.

Rick:      Hang on, hang on. So you’re saying “they,” whoever they are, are actually trying to bring about a worldwide pandemic?

Panache:            Well, look at how this is trending, and look at the amount of fear that’s being propagated on a daily basis around Ebola. Pick a subject – it could be terrorism; it can be Ebola. Look at the amount of fear that is being propagated around these issues. Well you have to have a look at why, because if enough people get afraid, then clearly it becomes real.

Rick:      So who would want it to become real, and why?

Panache:            Any, any corporation. I mean, how much money would a pharmaceutical corporation stand to make off of the cure of Ebola?

Rick:      Yeah, could be big.

Panache:            Right? And how profitable is war?

Rick:      Yeah, there are even some who say that the ‘powers that be’ have this agenda of diminishing the world’s population to a fraction of its current numbers.

Panache:            Yeah, I’ve heard that. I’ve heard that they’re trying to get rid of a billion people, because they’ve just decided that the world would be better in the absence of a billion people. But again, it’s so hard to decipher what’s real and what’s true and what isn’t, you know? That’s why you just have to kind of trust your heart and again, look at what’s going on; don’t look at things as isolated incidents.

Start mapping things out, then you can see trends. It’s like you can see the end game before it happens, if you do that.

Rick:      Yeah, well I think the key thing to come back to is something you said a few minutes ago, which is that the recourse of the Divine is the ultimate solution to all this. And we could also say in the same breath that recourse to the Divine is the ultimate refuge, you know; if you could reside there, then all this stuff won’t touch you, be in the world but not of it.

Panache:            That’s right, and I love what you said Rick because for the most part, if you’re resolved in who you are, when you watch the news it won’t impact you, because world events can illustrate where you’re unresolved personally. So when something is going on in the world and it impacts you, then it’s something you need to look at on a personal level that you haven’t looked at, and that’s the first thing.

So the news and the media actually becomes an evolutionary catalyst in and of itself. That’s why I love Russell Brand. Russell Brand right now started his own news show called Trews, where he aims to deliver the trews!

Rick:      Cool, I would like to watch that. I would like to get Russell on this show someday.

Panache:            Yeah, I would love for you to get Russell on this show too. Actually everyone who thinks that I’m the avatar, they’ve got it confused; Russell is the messiah. He’s got the beard and the hair, he is the incarnation and the Maitreya. Russell Brand is the Maitreya, it’s not Panache Desai; that is false information that Panache Desai is the Maitreya.

Russell Brand is the Maitreya, there you go, I vouch for him. Now he has no choice but to come on your show.

Rick:      Good.

Panache:            So Russell got so fed up with all the misinformation and all the fear, that he basically just started his own news channel on YouTube, to tell the truth. And he doesn’t do it in a way that let’s say a David Icke would do it, or someone who is a conspiracy theorist would do it, but he does it in a way that is very rational and very logical and very funny, because it’s Russell.

Rick:      Well, put in a good word for me. Also, a good friend of mine was his TM teacher.

Panache:            Well, if you’re in with his TM teacher then you’re in with his direct hotline to God, so you’re in a good place there Rishi Rick. I’m sure it will happen rather quickly.

Rick:      So how did you end up on Oprah’s radar?

Panache:            Well, she basically does a very good job of kind of scouting out who is next and paying attention to what’s happening. And was very fortunate for us that everyone that she was asking was saying that it was me, whether that be institutions that I’d been at or individuals that she respects and admires. It was just a wonderful coming together, you know, that that happened. And it was just a beautiful time that we shared, that I will never forget and I will always be grateful for, because she is such an incredible being, and she has this ability to just expand everything in a way that is so profound. So I love her and I’m so happy that we had the time we had together, and it’s just an amazing experience in my life.

Rick:      You mentioned in your book that after you had been on her show you got a little weird for a while, like it went to your head or something, what was that?

Panache:            Oh yeah, yeah. Well because when you have that kind of light shone on you, all that you’re left with after that experience is your shadow, and also, you realize how absolutely lonely and miserable success is. All of a sudden I’m 34 years old and I’ve made it, I’m sitting on the couch next to Oprah Winfrey. That’s something that some of my peers and colleagues have been trying to do for 20 years. And then two days later I got my book deal, which was another … and with Penguin Random House, so it’s like I had these series of highs that were just incredible, but then what you’re left to deal with is yourself, and the immature aspects of yourself, and all the parts of you that are freaking out that all of this is happening. I was ripped out of my comfort zone real quick.

Rick:      Kind of the Justin Bieber syndrome.

Panache:            Yeah, yeah, I kind of went a little ‘Bieber.’ I mean I wasn’t punching out any paps or anything, or having these compulsive needs to walk around shirtless, or have loud parties, or speed-race a Lamborghini through the streets of Miami, but I had my own moment, yeah. And I’m so happy that I did, because I could, again, really relate to what happens to people, you know, you go from whatever platform you’ve got to all of a sudden having a global platform. And again, you have to mature in who you are to be able to maintain and sustain that, if you don’t, you crash and burn. We see it all the time with celebrities; people get there real quick, overnight, and all of a sudden they crash and they burn.

I was so blessed in the fact that my daughters had been born in September and the interview aired in February, and I was changing diapers and taking out the trash, and there was this reality to my life that kept me really grounded. I minimized my Justin Bieber moments and I’m happy to say, thanks to some sever ass-kickings from my wife and my mother, I was quickly righted the course that I was on, and I’ll be forever grateful to them for that.

Rick:      Yeah, that’s great, I can say the same of my wife and my mother. I remember one time I was walking in Switzerland with my mother and I had gotten …n’yeah, kinda full of myself, and she called me on it you know, and I remember that little lesson to this day. And my wife still does that on a regular basis.

Panache:            I whole-heartedly count on the goddess to destroy me, fully. And they do such a good job of playing that role, that they lovingly destroy everything that’s false about me, and that’s such an act of grace. I’m so grateful that that happens, and it happens around my kitchen table, it happens frequently. They have no problem letting me know how they feel, and there’s no problem expressing their love to me, because that’s really what it is; it’s a major expression of love.

But you know, fame is a trip man, and success is an even bigger trip, it’s just an absolute illusion. There’s not an ounce of anything real in any of it, because people don’t really know you; they know their perception of you. In some ways that can be really painful because you’re never really yourself. And all of a sudden people’s motivations change, you know, everyone’s got an agenda in them, and also I’m getting these tweets, “Can you introduce me to Oprah,” you know, it’s just weird, it’s a weird world.

So I’m glad I went through it, I’m glad I went through it early, I’m over it. Hopefully I’ve minimized any subsequent ass-kickings from my mother and my wife, as a result of addressing it at an early age.

Rick:      Minimized, but I wouldn’t consider yourself absolved from the possibility of some.

Panache:            Oh no, no, actually, life would not be as interesting as it is in the absence of those interactions, so yeah, I’m grateful.

Rick:      One thing I found refreshing, and I don’t know if it was in your book or some of the interviews I listened to, is that you readily acknowledge that you do, you know, vacillate between much more clear immersion in the Divine, and kind of a little bit off balance from time to time, and then you have to come back to it. So that there’s an acknowledgment of a stabilization or an integration or a continual process that is taking place, that not all teachers would openly admit to.

Panache:            Well I’m only 36 you know, so there’s still maturing that’s happening in me. And I think that that’s just important to be transparent about, because I think as it is people create such a sense of separation between themselves and people like me, falsely. And my job is to completely dispel that myth and that illusion to such a degree, to where they’re like, “Oh cool, it’s just normal,” and it is.

And so I have no problem putting it out there, and I think it’s important because it gives people some real insight as to [the fact that] it doesn’t matter what state of consciousness you’re living in; you’re always going to be human, and that’s the blessing, you know, it’s that.

Rick:      Yeah, and I suspect you’ll be able to say the same thing when you’re my age – 65, you know? It’s not a matter of age, because as long as you’re alive, there’s still some kind of growth taking place.

Panache:            Yeah, but when you’re 65, you’ve seen more, you’ve experienced more, and you’re less engaged. And so we’re going to make this interview a little cooler … I loved Scooby Doo as a kid, did you watch Scooby Doo, Rick?

Rick:      I don’t think Scooby Doo existed when I was a kid; I was watching Deputy Dog and Mickey Mouse and that kind of stuff.

Panache:            So Scooby Doo had a nephew called Scrappy. So Scrappy was this little puppy who was into everything and wanted to fight everything, he took everything personally, so he’s the small self, the big self is Scooby. Scooby is like so chilled out and so like not affected by everything; the best response you get out of him is just this, “Hmm?” and it’s like having an old dog.

It’s like when you’ve had a dog for 14 years, or 16 years, that dog will just lay there and just look at you. And you can pull its ears, you can wag its tail, you can hug it, if you’ve got children, your children can dress it up in tutus and put tiaras on its head and paint its toe nails, you know, and that dog will just sit there, because it has seen and experienced everything.

The puppy, on the other hand, is into everything, there’s no way that that puppy is going to just sit there, so there’s a certain age piece here. Also the other thing for me is that I’ve grown up in the public, to a certain degree, and everything that happened to me happened at a very young age, and it happened in a spiritual genre, so … hello, whoever that person is walking behind Rick.

Rick:      That’s my wife letting the dogs in, which is why if you’ve seen me opening and closing the door over and over again during the interview, I’m letting dogs in and out.

Panache:            Thanks for clarifying that; I just thought you were bored and needed a moment to open the door and have a quick chuckle and come back to the interview. So anyway, where was I, yeah, Scooby Doo. So Scooby Doo is enlightenment! You know, I think with age comes this appreciation for life that you don’t have when you’re younger, where you don’t take things as personally.

One of the chapters in the book is the spiral staircase and the infinite expansive spiral staircase patterns. You know, life impacts you differently at 70 than it did when you were 20. So hopefully when I’m 65 I will be as cool as you are, and as chilled out as you are, and some of the more immature aspects of myself will have been embraced.

Rick:      Well if you got to know me better, you would not necessarily want to be [like me]. But anyway, if I show up next week with a tiara on and my fingernails painted, you’ll just know that I’m in my Scooby Doo phase.

Panache:            Exactly – Rick’s getting his Scooby Doo on.

Rick:      So we’ll wrap it up pretty soon, but there’s a couple of tidbits from your book that I just wanted to bring out because I thought they were beautiful. One is that you said – page 149 – “Either everything is Divine or nothing is,” and you talked about being grateful for whatever comes, and I really liked that, it really resonates with me.

Panache:            Thank you. You know, we have to cultivate an all-inclusive relationship with our reality, and the only we can do that is by stopping this incessant need that we have as human beings to compartmentalize everything, including God. You know, at some point we just have to let God be infinite, and deal with the mystery of infinity and the ability to not know what It is, but to experience It. And so you know, there are a lot of people who sit on their side of the fence as it pertains to God, and we even experienced it in India where there are different gurus, and if you have a different guru than someone else, then you don’t talk to each other. You know, someone’s asana is better than someone else’s asana, and someone’s guru’s disciples are the anointed, chosen ones and some disciples aren’t.

Rick:      Well you have that in the West too; every little sect thinks it’s the one, you know?

Panache:            Exactly! So we have to just stop all of this immature tomfoolery and just understand that we’re all a part of this infinite spectrum, and we’re just expressing this infinite spectrum in whatever way we have the faculty and ability to do.

Rick:      Yeah, let me tell you an experience I had, and it’s part experience, part understanding, part intuition, but it occupies my attention a lot of the time, which is that I just can’t get over the fact that as I’m walking down the street or doing anything, that what I’m actually looking at, interacting with, is just this ocean of intelligence assuming different forms. But even if we think of it from a scientific perspective, what science has told us about what’s actually going on, every little cell in our fingertip, every little blade of grass, every insect, everything, if we were actually tuned into what’s happening there, is this miraculous play and display of infinite intelligence.

And there’s no place in the universe, no cubic centimeter anywhere, which is not permeated with that intelligence. Of course science doesn’t usually talk about it in those terms of ‘intelligence,’ but this is just something which intrigues me, and I suspect that your experience of it is even richer, far richer than mine. Do you also kind of dwell on that a little bit, or does it fascinate you?

Panache:            I do, but you know, it’s kind of gone beyond … I used to have this need when everything first happened, to understand it or to articulate it, and I’ve quickly realized that I just can’t. The experience is so overwhelming that there are no words; it’s just there, it’s just this infinitely expansive energetic field that we are giving form to.

So everyone is right in their belief that they are center of the universe, they are. No matter where you are as an individual, you are in the center of the universe, and actually you are providing your reality its content. So it’s almost like this completely blank vibrational canvas that takes whatever form it takes, because you are there observing it in whatever way you’re observing it, based on the degree to which you are integrated into yourself. So that’s the cool thing, is that this whole thing is just one giant energetic loop of information that’s coming from us, that’s being then brought back to us in a sensory way that we can then experience, and then in some way try and articulate as best we can, using the very limited vernacular that we have.

And again, you and I articulate it how we articulate it, but the truth is everyone is experiencing the same thing, they’re just articulating it uniquely. But we’re all experiencing it, right now. Everyone is the center of their reality, every single person, and everyone is experiencing what is going on in their own unique way.

Rick:      Nice. A friend of mine likes to use the phrase “sense organs of the infinite,” and I put it myself – that we’re all these little tendrils through which the Infinite interacts with Itself.

Panache:            Yeah, it’s amazing, and this whole thing about ‘God incarnating as God to experience God,’ really is what it’s about. That’s really the truth of it, because I’m just left in awe sometimes, just absolute awe of this sheer light and brilliance that there is. And also that what that encompasses and what that entails, and that includes the guy who is about to behead someone in the Middle East, that includes the guy who is about to be beheaded, it includes the knife that he’s about to use to do the beheading! And then it also includes the sand that they’re standing on and the air that they’re breathing – I mean it’s just so all-encompassing and awe inspiring that now I know why we as human beings have so romanticized it, because that’s what we’ve needed to do in order to relate to it.

But in truth, it’s completely unrelatable, and that’s why for the most part it is so scary for people. [That is why] enlightenment – living in your truth and living in your power, or living an enlightened life – is one of the scariest things for people, because it is one giant unknown, it is one giant question mark.

Rick:      Until you actually do it.

Panache:            And then there’s just the nothingness.

Rick:      Then it’s not scary.

Panache:            Then there’s just an absolute nothingness.

Rick:      Yeah, there’s an Upanishad which says, “Certainly all fear is born of duality,” and so when duality has been transcended then how can there be fear?

Panache:            That’s right; it’s another great one from Rick-Veda.

Rick:      Here’s a nice phrase and we can maybe end on this one, although we don’t have to, but this might be a nice one to end on. You said on page 206, “We’re reaching a critical mass where the energy of the collective will be love.”

Panache:            Yes, that’s exactly where we’re headed. But basically what happens when love enters your life, it begins to bring everything into alignment with that energy of love. What’s happening right now on this planet is love is being introduced to such a degree, or being remembered to such a degree, that everything we once considered not to be love is actually becoming love itself.

So it’s like there’s this unfinished equation that’s being finished and balanced, and there is this giant harmonizing that is going on right now. Everyone is basically coming into alignment with this greater chorus of love that’s permeating the earth, it’s awesome.

Rick:      And you know it might be closer than we think. You were saying before it takes three generations, and maybe; maybe three generations to fully ripen. In physics there is this concept called ‘phase transition,’ like when water gets hotter and hotter and hotter, nothing much seems to be happening. It could be 211 degrees Fahrenheit and it seems like water, but as soon as it reaches 212 it boils; there’s a phase transition, it becomes steam. And it is quite sudden and unanticipated, if you didn’t know the boiling temperature of water.

So it could be, I mean look how fast things are changing, with technology and this consciousness explosion that’s taking place. So it seems to me, I hold that hope, that it could be that there will be a transformation much more abruptly than we might think.

Panache:            Well it is said that the technological revolution was tens of years, and the spiritual revolution will be just enlightened; in a singular moment everyone will remember who they are.

Rick:      Could be.

Panache:            And my sense is that we’re the generation that is going to bring that into being, and the new generation, regardless of our age …just the fact that we’re alive now, we’re inhabiting time and space, we’re going to bring that into being.

Rick:      Yeah, well let’s hope so and let’s keep on trucking and do it.

Panache:            Yay, amen brother.

Rick:      So thanks, this has been really fun.

Panache:            Thank you! This has been a lot of fun, it has been.

Rick:      It has been; we’ll have to do it again sometime, maybe even in person somehow.

Panache:            I would love that. That would be fantastic.

Rick:      Let me make some wrap up points. I’ve been speaking with Panache Desai, as you no doubt know by now, and he has a website – www.panachedesai.com . I’ll be linking to that from his page on www.batgap.com , as well as to the Amazon page at which you can get his book, if you wish: Discovering Your Soul Signature. And the book consists of 33 chapters meant to be read over 33 days, and each chapter contains 3 segments – morning, noon, and night. So you read one in the morning when you get up, you read one at lunch, and you read one before you go to bed. And I didn’t do it that way; I read the whole thing in the last week, so I had to go to sleep a lot in the last week in order to read the night one at the appropriate time. But in any case, I enjoyed it.

As I said, I’ll link to Panache’s website from mine, and to his book. And if you go to www.batgap.com , you will see several ways of looking at or exploring all the other interviews I’ve done and will do. Under the ‘Past Interviews’ menu, they are categorized in 3 or 4 ways – alphabetical, chronological, topical – and there’s a ‘Future Interviews’ menu showing what’s coming up.

Next week I’ll be going out to the Science & Nonduality Conference in California, and I’ll be having a conversation with Adyashanti and Francis Bennett about Adya’s book, Resurrecting Jesus, so that’s probably going to be the next one up on the site. To be notified when these things come online, there’s a link on www.Batgap.com where you can sign up to be notified by email each time a new interview is posted, so do that if you like.

There’s a ‘Donate’ button, which I appreciate and depend upon people clicking from time to time – you’ll see that on the right-hand side. If you don’t like to do PayPal, there’s a menu: ‘Why Donate,’ and it explains how you can do it in ways other than PayPal.

There’s also a link in each interview to an audio podcast on iTunes, so that you can just subscribe to the audio and listen while you’re commuting or something like that. So thanks for listening or watching, and thank you again Panache, it’s been great.

Panache:            Thank you, Rick, and thanks to all the BATGAPers out there for all of their love and support. I love you all, thanks for loving me.

Rick:      You’re welcome and thank you. See you next week everybody.

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