Pamela Eakins Transcript

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Pamela Eakins Interview

Rick Archer: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer, Buddha. The gas pump is an ongoing series of interviews with spiritually Awakening people and discussions of related topics. I’ve done hundreds of them now. And if this is new to you and you’d like to look at previous ones, please go to Bat gap and look under the past interviews menu. This program is made possible by the support of appreciative listeners and viewers. So if you appreciate it and feel like supporting it, there’s a PayPal button on every page of the site. And there’s also a donation page that discusses other ways of donating or supporting if you don’t like PayPal. My guest today is Dr. Pamela Eakins. Pamela is a sociologist and visionary cosmologist. She has taught at Stanford University, the University of Colorado, and the California Institute of integral studies. She’s the founder and director of Pacific Center, and Her books include Tarot of the spirit, Kabbalah and the Tarot of the spirit, the lightning papers 10 powers of evolution, visionary cosmology, the new paradigm, mothers in transition, the American way of birth, passages for spiritual birth, and priests and priestess. So, judging from the titles of books, of your books, Pamela, I guess it would be fair to say that your interests have included tarot, visionary cosmology and motherhood or birth, not necessarily in that order. Right.

Pamela Eakins: That is true. And would you say my interests also include writing? Oh, they love to write? Yeah, I do. Yeah. And recording experience and going inward and finding words to describe things or maybe to change things to?

Rick Archer: Yeah, so we’re gonna look back and kind of go through things chronologically a little bit. But I thought I’d start by asking you first what cosmology is, and you have a definition, I’ll read your definition. Tell me if you want to elaborate. You said, cosmology is the art of articulating the evolution of creation, how the universe has unfolded, and is unfolding. Anything more you want to say about that? I’ll stay

Pamela Eakins: with that definition. Want to add that being a sociologist, we humans are the universe. And I am very interested in the way human cosmology unfolds. Because a lot of times people think of cosmology in relationship to the unfolding of the universe itself, starting with the Big Bang, or what have you will know. And then the continuation of that my intro, I am interested in that, because because the universe operates by certain principles. And as it turns out, we to our universe, and probably contain many of those operating principles of the universe within our own selves. So I’m interested in how the human universe unfolds, in particular, and how human society unfolds. That’s one of my big interests. And just for example, I have taught in the past a course called Social cosmology, and that’s about society and the development of cosmos of social cosmology and society and how that works. So that’s what read that’s the part that really holds my attention. Okay. So yes,

Rick Archer: so, does what you just said, explain why you use the adjective vision visionary, to distinguish what you do from plain vanila cosmology.

Pamela Eakins: Okay, visionary are the two V’s, you know, piece. Right? Visionary, okay. So, where the visionary part of it came from is, if one comes to an understanding of how things unfold, what are the principles by which things unfold? How does it fit together? There’s a possibility then, that you can move into that and intervene in certain areas or wizard Certain aspects of the principles or use the principles themselves operating principles to intervene so that you can actually create the social world, for example, and maybe even engineer or cultivate components of that social world or the world within our own being. So the visionary has to do with what is your vision? And what would you want to create, and then you create the ongoing cosmos.

Rick Archer: Okay, so the universe obviously, is 14 billion years old, almost by our current understanding. And we are a very recent arrival on the scene. Extremely recent, the last fraction of a second if you if the length of the universe were put on a 24 hour timescale. And it’s the universe has obviously been creating along quite well without our involvement all this time. And now you’re talking about, you know, what we want to create? So does that relate to a point you made a minute ago about how we contain the principles of intelligence, which govern the universe? Are you talking about kind of harnessing or utilizing those principles in order to participate in the universe’s kind of creation, create creative drive, and kind of harness that for our own purposes or something?

Pamela Eakins: In a sense, yes, because there is a flow to universal energies. And if we begin to understand the flow of the universal energy, we can participate with that flow. And like you said, we are the new kids on the block. And we have got a long way to go. You know, but I would love to tell you a story about vision. Sure if I could, and this is a story, okay. This is a story that began to move me into the visionary cosmology, but I didn’t know it at the time. And the story that I’m telling right now that I want to tell, that I just began to tell in my life is this story of going to El Salvador in the middle of the war. And I did not. Previously, I did not tell this story. This was 1885 when this story began, so it’s a long time ago now. But I was unable to tell the story because of one reason was PTSD from having been in the war. But another reason was, I was also harassed actually, by a bit by the US government, and a few other reasons. Also, because people’s lives were at stake. I didn’t want to tell the story. But now I want to tell you a story about vision, because this is really where I began. So I went to El Salvador as part of a delegation of professional delegation. And it was a humanitarian delegation of 16. health workers, all doctors and nurses in public health, one, one social scientists, that was me, and then one reporter from the Los Angeles Times. So that was our team. And we were going there to study of all things, the effects of war on health. And to do that, we would

Rick Archer: beg for help, don’t go.

Pamela Eakins: My gosh, I will cut to the conclusion and then go back the conclusion. The conclusion was, war is not good for children and other living things. So that was the conclusion. So yeah, I mean, it’s quite amazing that we did this, but we our mission was to prepare a report for Congress, which we did. And that was, in a sense, the essence of the report was fully realized what we were getting into. None of us had, well, a couple of people had been in a war zone, but not to the extent of the war zone we were entering at that time. The night before we went into El Salvador, this is the story when he tell you about vision, vision, airy, being a visionary. The night before we went into El Salvador, we were in Mexico City and we met with with Salvador and gorillas who were masterminding the war from Mexico City, they were part of masterminding the war, they could not go into El Salvador because it was too dangerous for them to be in El Salvador, and a lot was taking place in Mexico City that had to do with that bar. So we were led in a van, down curving streets at night, it was dark, around and around and around, so that we would get mixed up and not know where we were. And we were taken into a, an abandoned warehouse district, and in to a head around and around the warehouse district, and then into a warehouse, where we walked in, there’s no power, there was no power anywhere. So no lie. walked in, again, around and around and around. So we would be confused. And some people of our delegation had flashlights. Now how they knew to bring flashlights, I don’t know, we didn’t know each other before going. We were from all across the United States. But some people seem to be a little better versed than others, including, I don’t know how all the appoints appointments were made with all of the people, or you know how they got this meeting with the gorillas, I doubt I wasn’t part of that. So we went into this, almost like a, you could call it a conference room, it had something like a conference table, which we all sat around, and at the head of the table was a gorilla, that they hit the leader they had. And standing next to him on both sides, he was flanked by men, all of them bearing machine guns, you know, automatic weapons, big machine guns. And we sat down, and he told us this story. And basically, what he was asking us to do is take the story he was telling back to President Reagan, Reagan was president at the time, and he believed, he definitely believed we would be able to do that. In other words, he believed that we had that kind of power, and upon our return, we would probably be sitting down with the President. So that was interesting to me to start with. And this was our very first meeting. So he proceeded to tell about what was wrong. And everything that was wrong, was of course, right. For example, here’s what we need. We need, we need food. We need sanitation, we need clean water, we need shelter, we need education, we need jobs, you know, all of the things that you would think of that human beings need. And 50% of the children were suffering from malnutrition is very high. So it was the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere. And he laid it out. And then he said, we need the United States to be out of El Salvador, there’s a big US asked presents, money and military. In El Salvador, we need the US out of El Salvador, here’s what we want you to tell your president, tell your president that El Salvador is a country of very small country, about the size of Massachusetts, we have got internal problems here, very serious internal problems. And these are not east west problems, meaning they’re not it’s not a communist problem, or something like that. What is going on here is a problem. It’s more like a class and race problem that he was describing. So he said, we need the us out because we need to take care of our own issues. And we need to look at how to work our own land and things like that. Okay, so here’s me, I’m very young. I’m very naive. And I understood him and I agreed with him, but at the same time, my my mind was going to the place of I don’t, I couldn’t grasp what he was saying in terms of how things might change because I already was aware of how many people were being killed every day and when what was happening with this war. So I raised my hand very tentative. i This is me raising my hand very carefully. And he was extremely surprised that anyone would have the audacity to ask a question and not pleased, and they called on me, what do you want? By the way, this is all in Spanish. What do you want? And I said, Okay, I have a question for you when you win, because there was absolutely no doubt to be raised, like if you win, this is when you win when you win. What will you do to change things? Nope. Excuse me, when you win? What is your vision? That was the question vision. When you win, what is your vision? And he was furious, pounding the table, or whatever you did, I can’t remember any said, I just told you the vision. I just told you the vision. And I just told you what we want. And I said, I mean, what I mean is, I said, I respect you know what you just said, I really respect it. Believe me, I was terrified. And I said, I really I respect what you said. And I understand, I understand that the children are starving. What I mean by the vision is, how would you do things differently? What would your vision be to do things differently, so that you would not wind up entering entering into the same problem, again, where you would have one group in power, and then another group would get in power, and then you’d have the same issues in the power would keep changing hands, but the issues wouldn’t be resolved. Again, he was furious. He, he paused, he calmed down. Before I tell you what he said, I want to tell you that this man had been in the Salvadoran army. And he switched sides and became a guerrilla leader. So that’s a little background on him. But he calmed down. He thought for a minute. And he said, Okay. We are not profits, that is not what we do. He said, we are working to get the power. We will get in power. Once we get in power, we’ll turn our attention to these other things. And I myself without fully realizing it, right. In that moment, I had a little it was a thing. And it didn’t come in fully. But the gist of it was, wait a minute, new paradigm. Yeah. That’s where I began. And it was before even arriving. That stuck with me that has stuck with me my entire life. And basically, that’s what I’ve been working on ever since. That wasn’t the moment that moved me the most, but it was a real awakening.

Rick Archer: Yeah. I mean, I presume everybody understood the gist of what you just said that, you know, basically, you get the sort of violent incoherent, you mentioned several times how angry he was angry, you know, volatile people, and they presume that they’re going to be able to govern a country, you know, what qualifies such people to govern a country? Which, you know, points to a deeper issue, which is that, you know, they’re what really governs the country? Is it the so called leaders? Or, you know, is it the, you know, and or is it the general level of consciousness of the people in that country? You know, could you get, you know, Jesus and Gandhi and Martin Luther King and the leadership of a country full of crazy, incoherent people? And would that become an ideal country, just because you had some really great leaders? Or do all the populace have to be raised up to a higher level of functioning and in order for, you know, society to really work?

Pamela Eakins: Well, I think that is a question that we are we you know, this large we and many of the people you are speaking with, that’s a question that a lot of us are working on. So but back if I, if I can choose, maybe tell another story that happened there, and then I could maybe bring you a little bit up to date about why I started doing the work that I’m doing. Sure. So when I when I went there. I was a researcher at Stanford University and I had a joint appointment at the UCLA School Public Health. And that was where the books on on childbirth and those things came from because that’s what I was working on. We had a grant, from the state of California to study a big grant was a big grant to study out of hospital birth 10,000 consecutive out of hospital births and look at medical outcome. And that’s what I was doing. And I was working in women’s health. And and that’s what I was looking at. When I went to El Salvador that was going to be one of my areas of specialization. And by the way I was assigned to because of that, interestingly, I was assigned to mothers of the disappeared. So that was going to be my area that I would be reporting on to Congress, the Congress, and my other area was the refugee situation. So what is happening with the refugee, so I spent quite a bit of time with the mothers of the disappeared and at an ER of refugee camps and with refugees. On the way I met another person, this goes back to your question that you just raised. I want to mention something about another person I met, who really did become the turning point for me. And this person was a doctor, a medical doctor and a professor of medicine. When when we left Mexico City, first of all that night out, we met with the gorillas, we met in our hotel room, we had a briefing, we had a briefing every night, a debriefing every night and a briefing at like 10 o’clock every night for a long time, the whole time. And that night, we had our debriefing. And people were really uneasy because they had not expected what happened with the gorillas, we thought we could be sitting with those gorillas, we thought if they were in the mood, they could have very easily wiped us out if they had felt like it. And we became aware of that. But it was nothing. Like what we actually experienced in El Salvador, which was any moment we could be wiped out. And that we found that we had a lot of enemies, and we weren’t even sure who they were. So we were followed, everywhere we went. All of our bags, and everything were rifled through every day, we had to carry everything with us that was of value. We had notes, we had film, we had all kinds of things from our interviews, and the American government voiced their displeasure with us and call this in for mandatory session at the American Embassy. The American government was primarily funding the war in El Salvador. So in terms of who is the government in that case? Well, we were trying to get a an appointment with the president of the country at the time, into our day. And we were unable to get an appointment with him. But the people at his office laughed, and they said, Well, you’ve already gone over his head anyway, because we were already meeting with the American ambassador. And they said that you’ve already been to the highest point in the country, you don’t need to speak to Dorothy. So that was part of it. That was the feeling so who who is running the country, this is just a country, some country who gets to run a country. And in this case, the the US was basically representing land owner interests. And it was very similar. One person said, one of the land owner, people said, well, we don’t we were just like you, we don’t want anything different than you Americans want. You know, we’re dealing with the same situation you’re dealing with, you know, in, in, in the United States, where where we were trying to get the land, we’re trying to get the land from the Indians, you know, very similar to what you are going through. And this land in El Salvador was not surveyed or cordoned off, you know, it was the land goes from this rock to this tree to you know, and and then it was bought up. And there are all these people living there who are indigenous people. So that’s a big problem. So that was a big problem. So now back to to our delegation going into El Salvador. So the morning in that night debriefing, after the guerrillas, we were also told that night we are taking a lot of medical supplies into El Salvador and here’s what you need to say. These are going to be first of all these are going to be medical supplies for political prisoners. And here’s what you need to say And then we were told we had to delegation leaders and delegation leaders started telling us how to answer questions. And as I mentioned, we didn’t know each other before. And a number of is not just me, but several people did not want to be told how to answer questions. Because we were professionals. And we felt we would answer questions any way we wanted to, if someone asked us and secondly, we didn’t even know we were taking in medical supplies, and why are we taking in medical supplies, we’re a delegation to create an order for Congress not to take medical supplies. So and maybe taking medical supplies would, in some way, in some way hinder our delegation, because it would be a mean side or something like I’m not quite sure how to express that. But, but I was a bit uneasy. So I just wanted to not know about it, that we were taking medical supplies if we were because I just wanted to do my job on the delegation. And I didn’t want to become involved with any kind of sides or anything like that. I will say, after we got on the ground in El Salvador, that it was such a frightening experience. After about three days, I started really bonding with my delegation with all the people in the delegation, we all started bonding. And I wound up being one of the people who was one of the people who delivered the medical supplies, and those medical supplies were going to be picked up and delivered to the university and picked up at the university by a professor of medicine, who is the person I wanted to tell you about in some graduate students. So I thought, Oh, this is good, because all feel more comfortable at the university. This is after experiencing things like listening to bombs, especially all night long. Mortars, continually crashing, gunshots all night. Just continuous after seeing groups of people rounded up in front of our hotel, after seeing pools of blood on the street, this was serious, we were in a war pause for a moment, I’m taking that into myself, I’ve never not been able to talk about this before. So then we take the medical supplies, by taxi to the university. And I’m looking forward to a certain sense being at home at the university. I’m always at home on university campuses. That’s the way I felt. were unloading the medical supplies and realizing suddenly we were in a very open space, it was kind of an open plaza. And then realizing the extreme danger that we were facing by being in a very open space, because now we had already been told that people like us are in extreme danger in El Salvador, we like the four nuns had been killed, the four Dutch journalists had been killed, you know, other humanitarian workers had been killed, and we were prime targets. So so we quickly were trying to get these medical supplies out of the way and get close closer to the walls, really. So we would have more cover. And as we got closer to the walls of the university, I could see that the walls were full of bullet holes. And this is something that we did experience everywhere we went. So here, here are walls that have been knocked down that have rebar sticking out that are covered with graffiti. And by the way, it was ghost town where were the students, there weren’t any there were about three students who came to help load up the medical supplies. There was the medical professor, but there weren’t any teachers. Where were all the people, they were gone. He takes us into his office sits down with me with us, but he started speaking to me and he asked me, he said, what field are you in? And I said, sociology, I’m a sociologist, and he said, oh, oh, oh, yes. The sociologists were the first people to be disappeared. The sociologists are the first to go, because they care about people. And they’re coming up with ideas that might help the situation. And that is not something that is valued in this country. And so the sociologists were gone. And, and as he was speaking, I noticed a strange light in his eyes. And I realized I had seen this light before with other people we had met. And it was a coal Oh, it was a radiant glow, a brilliant light coming out of his eyes. And he he had just finished telling us how much his life was in danger, because of what he was doing, which was not discriminating in terms of who needed health care. He would serve anyone who needed it. And he said to me, with those glowing eyes, he said, These people, these people, you know, they’re beautiful. And what he meant was the people out in the country, they were supposed to be the enemy. And I said, you have this glow in your eyes. I’ve seen it in the eyes of other people. Do you know what I’m talking about? And he said, I do know, I thought he would think I was crazy. But he said, I know what you’re talking about. I do know. And I said, Well, what is it? And he said, It’s Jesus. It’s Jesus. Jesus is looking out of my eyes. Jesus is in my body. Jesus is with me, Jesus is looking out in my eyes. And when he said, When I see the people, when I go in the country, when I see the people, I see Jesus in them. I see Jesus in each and every one of them. And he said, You go in the country, and you have to love them, you learn to love them. They are Jesus. That was the moment for me. I didn’t realize it at that time. First of all, Jesus was not in my vocabulary, I must say, not at all. This was not my interest in political solutions to the conflict if I was interested in anything, which basically means you you talk and you vote, and you do things like that. And that’s how you determine where who’s the government, back to the government, you vote, something like that, you know, you, you try to initiate a democratic system. And I can see that was going to be very difficult there. But when he said, Jesus is in my eyes, that was when the really big awakening began for me, that would stay with me for the rest of my life, and will be with me for the rest of my life. Because I realized, this goes back to what you were saying, I know I’m telling a long story now. But it goes back to what you were saying about will who could govern the country? Will it change? What needs to have been? I don’t know if we will be able to change on a mass scale. But that sense in that experience of having that kind of awakening is such a powerful experience. And I will mark that moment, I know that at that very moment, when I looked into his eyes was the moment that my own personal awakening began because I could no longer I would find out. Once I was able to get out of Salvador, which I did not think I would be able to, I would find out that I was not able after that to return to the life that I had been living. That life was over. It was over.

Rick Archer: Yeah. So the main shift with you there was the realization that political, and certainly military, but even political manipulation is kind of superficial. And that really the, it has to go deeper to a spiritual solution. Incidentally, I spent like three months in Iran just right up until the time the before the Shama left. We used to go I used to go walking on the streets with the Swedish friend of mine with blonde hair, and we really stuck out. And you know, people would come up to you crazy, get off the streets, your life in danger, go back to your hotel. And then, like nine months in the Philippines, just before Marcos left, and things are starting to get a little crazy there. But um, those are nothing compared to your experience. And you know that there are degrees and degrees. I mean, if you if we were to go to Yemen today or someplace like that it would be Syria, parts of Syria, it would be even more horrible. So there are these surgeries of chaos and incoherence in the world. And I think ultimately, what you and I are kind of coming around to hear in this conversation is essentially because my next interview is going to be with James O. De who who was the head of the Washington bureau of Amnesty International for for quite a while, and he’s done all sorts of interventions to try to stop torture and stuff like that. So, you know, there have been all kinds of well, meaning people who want to change the world, obviously, and some of them have gone about it in a political way. And some of them have gone about it in an economic way. And, and, you know, some of them have tried to marry spirituality of some sort with their efforts, like Martin Luther King or Gandhi. So but maybe it begs the question, you know, what is the ultimately the most effective thing that one can do to shift the trends of time to, to change a society? I think I’ll be talking about this with James D also. So, you know, you shifted to an appreciation that it must be spiritual in some sense, you know, can’t just be political, that’s not working. And, you know, so and that was decades ago that you began that shift. So you know, what have you come to in terms of any kind of conclusion? Do you feel that that peace in society will ever be possible? And if so, what what will bring it about?

Pamela Eakins: Maybe on the road, to complete Enlightenment, we come to places where humanitarian efforts make a huge difference, I just want to back up for a moment, I’m thinking about your next guest. One of the things that I did not realize, in El Salvador was that, as I mentioned, we interviewed probably 200 people, or many, many groups, many walks of life on all sides of the war, we spent quite a bit of time with the American Embassy and with Salvadorian, officials, military, we spent a lot of time with political prisoners, in the jails, with the refugees with legal defense people legal defense funds, and I want to say I want to, I want to thank your next guest. Because what I realize is that all of the people who were speaking to us, almost all of them were risking their lives by speaking to us, that was part of it. But they spoke to us, because they believed that we could make a difference as international observers, international witnesses, we were performing a role that was similar to Amnesty International, which I did not realize, but I heard about and see and what they were doing when I was there, and it wasn’t just amnesty, but also other groups of compiling the names of political prisoners, keeping tabs on them, where they were, what what jails and so on, and then bringing as much illumination as possible to those cases. So that because well, because the people would not be killed if their case was visible, maybe maybe. So we did spend time with political prisoners. They were telling us their stories, it was also how we got access into the prisons, because we were international observers, and they were a little bit worried about not allowing us access. But they were also worried about allowing us access. And the the prisoners, the political prisoners, they wouldn’t be prisoners of conscience, and maybe they had some ideas about how things could change that were not appreciated, which is why they were in prison and why they had been all of them. 100% tortured. And, you know, try trying to keep them quiet. So I came to a full appreciation of very big appreciation of organizations, especially international organizations like Amnesty International, and the work that they are doing, to, to try to preserve the views, the people and their views, who may have a differing viewpoint that’s different from the norm. And so that was really important too. So the question is, can we you? Can we ever do this? Can we bring peace? Is that even possible? Can we ever get to that point?I don’t know whether we can get to that point or not. Actually, this is what my book is about. I just have finished the my new book, which is a memoir of this period, which is why I’m talking about this time period. It’s very fresh in my mind right now. And the book is called. It’s called it’s called the Land of kindness. But there are three volumes. The first one is called blindness in sight. The second one is called to end of the war. So it’s the land of kindness to end the war. And in this book, The Land of kindness to end the war, I talk about this, I addressed this question, is it even possible that we could bring peace that we could come up with a different ways of knowing and something that might help and I’ll just interject that I have been spending all of these years since then the last more than three decades working on developing a new paradigm. So I just put that to the side right now, and say that people have very different views. And even in my own family, the views are very different about what should happen. And we see it in our country right now. The, the this split right down the middle, almost down the middle of support for our government and the way our government is going and then complete, like approval and incomplete disapproval. On the other hand, and that may always exist, I don’t know. But my vow, my personal vow is to continue the work well, I must say, Actually, I have actually taken the bodhisattva vows with the Dalai Lama along the way, and part of my personal work is to keep doing it, as Mother Teresa would say, anyway, keep doing it anyway. But the part that I need to do and be very clear about is I need to be in order to do that, I need to be very clear about my own values, what’s important to me what I value, what I want to bring forward, and then just keep working on that. And then keep talking with people and keep expanding the ideas because there are people all over the world, you know, as you know, internationally now, who we are on the same wavelength with the kind of values that we want to bring forward in our world. You know, as we try to work for peace, as we try to operationalize love, I say, operationalize love, because you we can talk about peace and love. But we need to talk about what that means. How do you how do you? What is compassion? How do you take care of people or help people find their way and maybe use, for example, like self determination might be an issue, or empowerment, you know, those kinds of things for for, for all, you know, and respect for all and respect for diversity? So those are just some of the things I’m I am working for, as so many of us are so many of us working on these issues. Yeah. And it’s a movement, as you know, yeah. We’re all part of a movement.

Rick Archer: I mean, let me, let me know if this sounds simplistic to you. But I’ve always thought that just as the individual is the unit of society, unit of a family unit of a community unit of society, the greater society, individual peace would have to be the unit of world peace or peace, National Peace, or whatever. If you have a nation or world comprised of very unpeaceful people who are full of anger and violence within their own psyches, then what do you expect on a national or international level? Sure, there’s going to be a lot of craziness on that level. So it’s like, you know, the old forest analogy, if you if you want a forest to be green, that every tree in the forest is going to have to be green. If each tree is weathered and dry, it’s going to have a gray forest. So I guess it comes down and you know, comes down to can we can is it idealistic or naive to think that possibly enough individuals could become genuinely peaceful within themselves, that that would ripple up and we’d see a peaceful society? And then that requires us to ask the question, well, what is peace? You know, is it Enlightenment? Is it some degree of spiritual development? You know, how would we define individual peace? And you just mentioned a minute ago mentioned like compassion and certain qualities like that, which we shouldn’t just say peace, because obviously, there’s some very beautiful values, which if they were more fully flowered in large numbers of people, we would see them at large in society, people would tend to vote that way. They would tend to act that way. We wouldn’t necessarily have the imbalances we have in society where tiny fraction has huge wealth and then billions of people are starving. And anyway, those are some thoughts around my brain.

Pamela Eakins: Exactly. And so do I think it’s idealistic? Yes, I do. Am I idealistic? Yes, I am I, the older I get, the more idealistic I get, I was very cynical when I was young. I’m not cynical anymore. I’m just doing what I can. But some of the things that come in there that I am trying to do to move in this direction would be to work toward redefinition of certain things in our society, for example, well, I’m a mediator, that’s a big part of what I do. So I’ve done lots of court ordered mediation where I live. And what what we do in in mediation is we try to redefine the conflict and turn it into a win win situation. And at the mediation is the same kind of mediation that you would do at any level, you could do it between neighbors who are having an issue with a trade, or between countries, it’s the same process. And basically, the core of mediation has to do with not the presenting issue. So let’s say the presenting issue is three, that borders between two properties. That’s the presenting issue. But the way the mediation is always solved is by hearing, by each party, hearing the other party’s story in a deep way active listening, really hearing the story, and then validating the story from the other person’s point of view. So it’s really all about validation, and communication. And basically, what that kind of process does is it changes the way we view conflict. And that is one of the keys that instead of conflict being a win lose situation, conflict becomes a, oh, let’s explore this issue, that kind of situation. But of course, people have to be on board with that, you’re like you’re talking about the spirit of wanting resolution has to be there. And that’s a part that is missing a lot of times, so then we go back to the one on one. But before leaving that, I want to say one other conflict, redefining conflict, that’s a key, but the other one would be redefining power. Because right now, the human species is invested in the idea of essentially, the power over model, we’re still invested in that idea. And what we want to do, those of us who are working in this movement, is work more toward a synergistic model where people are contributing, what they’re able to contribute, so to speak, and it’s a power becomes redefined as linking together with other people. So that would be power with and that’s this is, these are some very basic ideas. But these are some of the key ideas we are working with. And I’ve worked very extensively here in the school systems, with children with these ideas. And I saw it make a difference over many years, with a whole community of children as they grew up, it makes a difference. Yeah, it does make a difference. And they want to make a difference too, by the way that killed the kids, I worked with middle and high school level kids. And the most important, their biggest issue, by the way, the biggest issue and this is one of the biggest issues I work with in my life with adults to and groups of people, their biggest issue is called disconnect. That’s the word they use. And the thing they want the most in the world is to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. And I’m using their language and to make a difference. So we’ve got a lot of young people here who really want to make a difference. We are making a difference. I feel like Rick, Rick, we are making a difference. That I don’t know how. I don’t know if I’ll go back to the guerrilla. I’m not a prophet, I want to sometimes believe I’m a prophet. I’m not a prophet. But I will continue to you know, to do this work that we’re talking about. I’m very, very dedicated. And also to coming up with we shift the ideas. Here’s one other piece, our consciousness shifts through ideas and a lot of times start, actually we just get an idea. New idea comes into our mind we say, Oh, I see how that could work. And then eventually, as it becomes stronger within us, it gets embodied. And then we can really work with it. And it can really change us. It’s like, the teachers I studied with that, oh, I used to always be engaged in the laying on hands. And right now, what I’m engaged in is the laying on of ideas. And I’m watching how the ideas go out. And that’s what I’m doing, I’m engaged in planning on abiding is, which is why I’m working so hard to develop some of these ideas, put them into a essentially paragraph form, so to speak, and then and then love them out into the world, which is what with the writing,

Rick Archer: which is what you’re doing with what? Lastly,

Pamela Eakins: with the with the writing process, the writing process, I also teach writing, by the way, yeah, I’m all I also have, right? I do, basically, there’s several things I do. One of them is teaching writing, because because writing is a is a process that when people go inside, and they find the words, then they know what they believe. And then then there’s a legion of writers write writers and speakers, and even politicians, you know, out there working with all this information to bring about the kind of change that we’re talking about. So people are working on, we’ve got a lot of great representatives, by the way, in California, who I share many values with a lot of good people.

Rick Archer: But a month ago, I interviewed a woman named Carver, the Morgan who is doing a very successful mindfulness program in the Portland Public Schools. And, you know, we’re hearing all the time stories about bullying in the schools and kids committing suicide and stuff like that. And she has her program has had a marvelous effect on transforming the culture of the schools in which it’s been taught. And you know, bullying has virtually disappeared and suicide and that kind of thing. It’s way down. And it’s very profound. There’s a whole video about her program that you can find a link to from her page on But, you know, if that kind of thing could be spread universally throughout society, it wouldn’t necessarily be the same kind of programming, you know, and spread in the hands of people who are really qualified to spread it, who were themselves embodying what they were teaching, in their own realization and Cavalia had spent eight years in Zen monastery and was quite highly realized person. But you know, and it can be applied to older people too. But if it could be provided to the youth in their developmental stages, imagine how transformed the society could be absolute what a difference that could make in terms of all these intractable political and societal problems that we we keep facing.

Pamela Eakins: Hmm, absolutely. I’d like to mention now my biggest contribution, I think, in the school district, which it’s funny, it’s a small thing could make such a difference. But for 13 years, I organize something called the Youth Summit, a youth summit and speak outs, where many speak outs where the kids would come. And they would talk about what was important to them, and what the issues were, was going on. And they at these speak gets, they would pick topics for their youth summit, when at the Youth Summit once a year they would come together and, and share. And if this was a very important time, they would share in the top six, and then I would bring in counselors, mostly counselors, people from the community psychotherapist, and people like that to facilitate breakout groups, that would happen. And so there was a big build up to this all year, and then we would have the youth summit. And what I introduced at the youth summit that made such a giant difference the kids picked their breakout group that they wanted to be involved in it could be might be drugs and alcohol, it could be gangs, it could be anything that was on their mind. A friend of mine made for me 25 Talking sticks. And I took these talking sticks into these breakout groups so that the kids each kid would have a chance to speak and this is the first time for most of them in their lives. They had this opportunity because what they said was, so these are these will be mixed cultural groups or very mixed cultural groups because when the when the youth pick their picked a breakout topic would break them out of their normal cliques. They would be an end these normal cliques were what reinforced the ongoing behavior. And then when they were able to break out Out of the clicks, and listen to other people’s stories, they would have very dramatic breakthroughs and begin to tell their own story. Because they had the opportunity, they were holding the talking stick in their hands, everyone was listening. And many times these were kids who had never spoken, because they said by, you know, their own, in their own words that starting in first grade or so the teacher would recognize only certain kids in the class and scan over the rest of the class. And so certain kids got into a habit of speaking all the time, and a lot of kids never spoke. And then this just continued, because for me, a big part of liberation is self expression. If we cannot express ourselves, we are not free. So this is another aspect of it. And I like to tell you a little story about one group one year, I was chairing that day, gang breakout group. And there were several gang breakout groups. But in this one gang breakout group, a young man wanted to come and talk about his experience. And he was beyond high school age. He was probably nine or 20. And he had been jumped out of a gang. We were everybody probably as gangs. But we have definitely have gangs here. And it’s not just the children. Their parents are also in gangs there were California coast south, south San Francisco. And there’s a lot of immigration, very mixed cultural community and a lot of gang activity. And you know, people searching for security and gangs, which I understand, so that this one young man had been jumped out of a gang and he made a vow that he was going to try to bring gangs together as his life work. And he wanted to come and speak. And he wanted to talk. So I was in I happened to be in the breakout group with him. I was facilitating that group. And he came in wearing a red and blue plaid shirt. So that’s integrating both of the gang colors, the red and the blue. The kids in group, some of them were in gangs. And some of them were gang wannabes. They were younger, and we’re considering entering a gang. One man had no affiliation. And he was very young as only about 14. And he never heard the things people in this particular group were talking about. And he was I remember him sitting there with his eyes wide open taking it all in. He was just saying Church and the subject was anyway, so there were all these of these gang kids. And then on top of that there was a police officer in the group. And he was off duty. And he was just helping and wanted to be part of it. And then there was a high school counselor in the group and she was wanting to be part of it, too. And the young man with the plaid shirt, red and blue plaid shirt he was talking about he wanted to make the point about what else you could do, how you could help so that kids do not go into gangs. And what you could do is you could help to support them in a different way. And he was lamenting that he had not been supported by his father that every thing he did, he kept trying to get his father’s attention. He only wanted one thing in his life. He wanted his father to tell him he was proud of him. Son, I’m proud of you. That is all he wanted. Never heard this from his father. And he turned every good thing he could think of and then he started going into bad things and could never get any attention. When he told this story. This story struck a nerve, it struck a chord with the rest of the kids. Interestingly, as he was talking the story, it also struck a chord with the high school counselor and the police officer, both of whom started to cry, the counselor and the police officer and they sat there. The counselor was weak. A police officer was just tearing up. But because we had the talking stick, they didn’t get to speak yet. And then we pass the stick around. And what happened was that the people in the group, the youth and the adults agreed that a key point was parental support and the police officer said he had the identical experience as the young man in a gang that he did everything he could to get his father’s attention. Never We’re gonna get his father’s attention, wound up becoming a police officer, which is similar to becoming a gang member in the sense that he was part of this gang, but he was on the quote, like the good side. And the, the high school counselor also had the same experience, never having been told by anyone, that her parents that they were proud of her. This became a theme, it was a theme among a lot of the kids in the gang group. And the conclusion was that year. Know, your kids, you’re proud of them. Okay. And what that means is support people. And we have to, we have to begin by supporting the people sitting in this very circle, no matter which gang they are, if they’re red, or blue, you know, it doesn’t matter, we need to support each other if you’re a cop, or if you’re a gangster, we need to support each other. See, this cop is a real person. He’s not just a cop. And this gang leader is not just a gang leader. These are people with deep experiences in society. So the answer here comes in telling your story being allowed to tell your story in a safe place and being witnessed having your story witnessed. final part of this story is that night. First, that the the story of that particular group traveled throughout all the kids in the youth summit, and they all heard about this, tell your kids, you’re proud of them theme. And they were all rocking it Did your father tell you he was proud of it and had to do mostly with the men I want to say they not didn’t talk about did my mother tell me I was proud of me was the father. It was all about the Father. So that night, the parents came at the end of the day, and the youth put on presentation. And so they had speeches that had grown out of this for the parents. And there was a very impassioned speech done by this young man. About tell your kids, you’re proud of them. And this is why and many of the parents were sitting there weeping, literally, in some words here. At all, were very thoughtful. And I am quite sure that they went home and told their kids, they were proud of them, I can tell you, I came home. And I told my kids how proud I was them. I told my husband how proud I was of him. And I have ever since that day, this has been also a theme in my life to listen to people very carefully. And to always try to support that person. Even if I don’t completely understand the struggle. I want to understand story in a much deeper way. And and be as supportive as possible. So I think just having the opportunity within the schools, you can build this and it’s possible like building in mindfulness, you could do that Bill building in a mindfulness practice, way we had built in and still built in, in our area, these annual youth summits and these after school speak outs where the kids can come and also I was also involved, heavily involved in the peer counseling programs, which you can also do peer counseling and conflict resolution in schools. So when you have the bully situation, and here’s another case, and we’re doing this in our legal system, too, and I’ve worked in the legal system as well, but the like with between a bully and a child who has been bullied, to come together and listen to each other stories and get to a deeper level with where where this is coming from behind it. So that’s another way to go is with the storytelling.

Rick Archer: So as you speak, what comes to my mind is that there may be two components here. One is the kinds of things you’re talking about communications mediation, you know, storytelling getting getting sort of the new grooves carved and the way we behave with one another and another is to increase our capacity as human beings but by that I mean like the kind of thing that deep spiritual practice can do. So it wouldn’t be enough for instance I think for cavity Morgan to go into the Portland Public Schools say okay, here’s here’s how to meditate do that. And let’s, let’s go about our day. But in addition to learning practices, such as that there’s all sorts of interactive, communicative breaking down social barriers. kind of activities, you know, which really helps the kids see each other as human beings and appreciate each other and you know, be more loving and kind towards one another. Because you can, you can meet people who’ve been spiritual practitioners for decades, and they’re still very selfish. And, you know, it’s all about me and my, my program and my spirituality and to heck with you. So I really, perhaps both, just as some people these days, say that you need both spiritual development and social activism, you know, to change the world, in this, in this case, some spiritual foundation, but then all kinds of interactive engagement with one another to develop our skills as human beings or emotional capacity, communicative communication skills and so on. Yeah, that’s anyway, that’s what I can see him all this.

Pamela Eakins: Right. And as you’re speaking, I just had this thought that one of the things that is critical here, is breaking down the barrier that is created by fear. So when we do these kinds of activities to bring people together, what we’re doing is getting people excited about knowing each other and getting people excited about diversity, rather than being afraid of that, and getting people to break out of their groups, their social groups, and getting people to interact with other social groups that they may not normally be interacting with, like, like groups that are based on race or language. We’ve got all these problems here where I live, you know, race, language, culture. Yeah. And we’ve also got immersion programs here that, that the children can go into to learn other languages, man. The two languages here are English and Spanish. But we have three languages in our county, that are the official languages, which would be English, Spanish and Chinese. And here, yeah, right here, it’s I live in a bilingual community. And the community can easily divide. On just on the basis of the language and culture Well, the language is the culture, basically language and culture. And part of what what I had worked toward for years and years and years is to break that barrier. And the year that I left him, tell him another a dangerous story. The year I left as coordinator of the summit, first I had children. It was more than the youth summit, by the way. So little place through there, I was on the board of an organization called the coastside Collaborative and the vow of this organization, the mission of the organization was to make sure that no one in our area are areas that they’re 35 miles long, it’s it’s a geographical area that is 35 miles long and three miles wide, and has about seven towns. And it’s geographically bordered, that’s how it gets, you know, beach is between the ocean and a mountain range. So our goal was to make sure that every person in that area was served. And in terms of what the guerrillas were saying, from El Salvador, we need food, we need sanitation, we need medical supplies, and we meet, we need medicine, we need health care, these are all the things that we need. Well, these are all the things that we supplied. We were an over, we were I was on the board, and we were an umbrella organization for 50, about 50 nonprofit organizations. And we met once a month and a representative from all of the from each nonprofit would come. And we would share information about the services and make sure that we weren’t duplicating services so that we wasting money and so on, and we came up with a system where everybody was served. But the thing was, so there wasn’t anyone hungry and there still isn’t nobody is going without food here. And this we were not it was called a collaborative. That’s the name of collaborative. But we were not the only collaborative around our entire county was divided up into collaborative in San Francisco divided into collaborative, the same kind of collaboratives to make sure that people were not falling through the cracks. And you know, to find ways to help so this was really this is very, this is service back to back to Mother Teresa, you know, this is prayer and action is what she called prayer and action. It’s where you really work to make these things happen because one of the causes of war and to use that term broadly. The cause of war is going to be, basically the haves and have nots. But if we help to take care of each other, to reach out to the people, and so on, then you know, the community is going to be a better place. But here’s what I wanted to say I started that was parenthetical, I can do these really long parenthetical statements, because what I was going to talk about was my last year with the youth summit, so by now, so I’d been doing it for 13 years, and my children were already they had already passed through, they were gone, they were gone, they would have gone to college, and maybe even out of college, and I was still doing it, you know, still working in the schools. So but the last year, I did this, after the youth summit, I got called in to the principal’s office, in the middle school. And I was in trouble, like the kid. So he says to me, what went wrong at the Youth Summit? And I said, nothing. And he said, Where were the white kids? And I said, Oh, I see what you mean, I don’t know you have to apply to come. And it turned out that we had more children of color, you might say, a lot more. Like it was probably 90% youth of color, and maybe 10% White, which does not match our community demographics. And he was very upset. And he said to me, this cannot happen again. And I said, Oh, but he’d been there as long as I had. And I said, but we succeeded. Because when we first started, the ratio was the other way around 90% White, the kids who were very outspoken, are the ones who came maybe 10% kids of color. And then what happened was over time, those who had previously not had a voice found their voice, and their voice became louder and louder and louder, until there was fear generated that they had gained so much personal power. And so much power meant through this experience, that the people at the schools began to get worried about the power dynamics. And interestingly, I said to myself, as I walked out the door of his office, I said, I think my work is done here. I felt like I was walking off into the sunset is like trigger calling, you know, trigger. That’s a horse, calling frog. Come on, let’s go. Let’s ride on to the next town. So you know, it was actually very satisfying. But I left I did leave right after that. And interestingly, so did he. I think that we both saw we have entered now a new era. We both left the same summer.

Rick Archer: So you mentioned that after you got back from El Salvador and your and your vision went from political to spiritual, that you’ve met many mysterious people with different ideas, different spiritual ideas, what sorts of people?

Pamela Eakins: Oh, my gosh, this is the question. So when I came back, I was completely shifted, for example. So as I mentioned, I live in Northern California, and I had been planning to move to Southern California as soon as I returned from El Salvador. In fact, I was the only person I knew on the delegation was a doctor and one of the doctors and I happen to be engaged to him. And we thought, you know, going into this war zone, he was a he was a professor in the Department of Public Health at UCLA. And we thought going into this war zone. This is this is good. We’re in public health. You know, this is good for us. We responded to that war in a very different way. I came out with my spirituality, you might say blasted wide open, and not really realizing it, though. I didn’t, I couldn’t yet understand what was going on because they did come out with PTSD. Anyway, I broke up with him on in the back in the Mexico City Airport on the way home, and I told him, I need to go home. I need to go home. Well, my home was at the time was on the market and was being sold and I was supposed to move there to Los Angeles to work at UCLA and be with him the following day. My kids were being taken care of by our my My assistant who took care the kids and my aunt Well, sin, El Salvador, I was a single mom at the time. And as soon as I got home, I called up the realtor and took my house off the market. And I just said, I cannot move. I don’t know what’s going to happen. But I’m not going to UCLA. I am not going to lie. I’m not going, get married. I’m not doing any of that I need to rethink my life. I don’t know what this means. I don’t know what I’m doing. I have no idea. And my brother was coming. He was already there. He and his friend to help me drive them moving fan to Los Angeles, everything in my house was packed, it was all in boxes, and ready to go. I cancelled it all. I just said I can’t do it. And then I started unpacking the boxes, and didn’t even know what the future held. first person I met in this timeframe was my daughter and I went out it was Sunday morning. And he was my daughter was about five, five years old. And we were going to go out for breakfast on Sunday morning. Well, the restaurants were packed, we went to a little restaurant at a harbor by here a fit a working fishing Harbor, commercial fishing. And the restaurant was packed. And the hostess said to us well, if you want to because it’s hard for a five year old to wait 45 minutes for a table. So the host is said to as well, if you want to you can sit here at the fisherman’s table, which was a big square table, and all fishermen, commercial fishermen and they’re getting ready to go out on their boats. So we sit here we’ll sit here, while there was one woman at this table sitting back in the Corps, a big table. And she’s sitting way back in the corner of the table wearing a long black dress and a white turban. And that was the area, the zone that was open at the table. We scooted down the booth all the way into that corner with her. And the fishermen were talking about the phases of the moon and the tides. And my daughter got very excited about this. And she said, Oh, I love phases of the moon. I love the phases of the moon. She said I draw them all the time. And I and we were we had not been in the conversation until then. And I said oh no, no, no, no, they’re talking about phases of the phone when the bonds really big. And then it gets really small. Those are called phases. And the woman who was sitting there then began to engage us in conversation. And she started talking about the ancient ruins church mission and, and the moon and the moon. God is just all of this different kind of conversation. And the three of us got into small conversation in the corner. And she said to me, she leaned back and said, I have been waiting here for you for two months. They told me that you would be here. She said, I recognize you as soon as you walked in the door. And you are to begin an apprenticeship with me. Wow. And instead, I just laugh. I this was a Sunday, I was the director of a big research project at Stanford. I was I carried a briefcase. I wore suits. This is hard to imagine. For me, it’s hard to imagine, but that is the life that I was living. And I said, I don’t think so. And she said no. I’m right about this. I know it. I recognize it and we start

Rick Archer: Who was the “they” that told her about you?

Pamela Eakins:  I said impossible is impossible.  They were her guides, like her guides

Rick Archer: Astral guides or celestial guides.

Pamela Eakins: Her astral guides, her astral guides. And so as she was this woman was a fish cleaner. Her job she had a job there. She was a fish cleaner on a commercial fishing boat. I mean a sport. A party boat, they call it so where were people not regular commercial fisherman that people would come in and go out on the boat and catch a fish, you know, they go out or be any fish, you know, so they go out early in the morning, you know, 536 o’clock in the morning and so she He’s claiming the fish on the boat party boat, they call it and the Queen of Hearts was the name of the boat. So she’s working on the boat. Well, she’s a vegetarian, she doesn’t eat fish. And so this is what she was telling us. So we will Why do you do that then? So here’s our plan. She says, I’m trying to come to terms of food on the planet, we have to eat. And I’m trying to understand. She said, I came here. I was looking for you, mate. She’s looking for me. And she said, I got this job on the bow. And I’ve been waiting here every day for two months. Wow. So I, so I say, Well, I can’t do it. And she says, Oh, but you are going to do it. And I found myself saying, Oh, maybe maybe. And she says tomorrow morning, and I say, Oh, maybe I could call in. And these were the days before people worked at home. This was before we had this setup to work home. But I did have a secretary, those were the days when people actually had secretaries. And we don’t do that anymore, either. So I called up my secretary and I said, you know, do you think it would be okay, I did this, I do think it would be okay, if I work from home tomorrow. She’s sure I can handle the office. No problem, no problem at all. So I say oh my gosh. So I find myself driving down to the parking lot at the harbor and find her in the place she has described, which is a little blue truck. With a camper shell on the back. And a Doberman, a Doberman guarding the door, she invites me to come in, I crawl in very small space. And she’s got what appears to be a television in the corner covered by what I am certain is a black altar cloth with some little objects on the top. Now, this would be normal to us right now. But this wasn’t normal at that time, like in 1985, for this to happen. So she says to me, okay, and here’s where the, actually this is where the new paradigm began. So she says to me, you are going to create a tarot deck. She said, I had planned to do it myself, but I can’t do it. Now. I’m, I’m too old. And I was told to me the person was going to do it, who would be doing it here at this harbor. And I said, I don’t think so you are going to make a tarot deck, she said, and it is going to be completely balanced in dark and light. And in masculine and feminine, because there is not one that exists that has this kind of balance and is critically important for the future, the future of our species. So it was hard for me to even process this because if I actually had made a tarot deck, I would have been out of a job because it doesn’t cohabitate with the university. So it just doesn’t work. And Stanford has a very strict image, and they make sure that people rise into that image. It’s really important. So but what happened was, she said, Come on, come with me. And we went back to the same arrest. We had been at the day before she pulls out this tarot deck, lays it out on the table, and she says, Read it. Read for me. And I said, I don’t know how I don’t know how she said yes, you do. You This is something you you have known this. She said this for many lifetimes, right? So so I started looking at these cards and the strange thing was, I got them. It was beyond getting them. It was beyond getting them. I saw that they fell in to the most profound order. That’s when it began. But it was another thing that again, I didn’t fully understand at that time. There were seven decks on the market, seven tarot decks. And I started working with him, she gave me all of her she had all she gave me the decks, and she said you study these and you’re gonna see what this is you’re working with, because these Tarot, Tarot decks, They weren’t just random tarot decks. These were all of them were designed based on the tree of life, which was from the Western Mystery School tradition and contains the energies and the principles, the operating principles, whatever the Kabbalah there cabbalistic pterodax And I began to undo I walked immediately within maybe two days of apprenticing with her. I walked through the doorway of Toronto, I think of it as a doorway into the Kabbalah. And I was inside this body of mystical knowledge within about three days that I had no idea previously, that it existed.

Rick Archer: So when you when you start awakening into this zone, is that what you’re talking about walking through the doorway and into this world of Kabbalah? And tarot,

Pamela Eakins: yes, yes, it was a it was a different world. It was a different worldview. And I could see the way that it was laid out a personal it contained, all you and I are talking about something like part of our conversation is about contradictory forces or forces that might potentially oppose each other opposing forces or something like this. So the the Tree of Life, which is what the Torah was based on, the throw fits on the tree of life, essentially. And this tree of life contains all of these opposing forces, like light and dark, you know, hot and cold, male and female, all all sort of paradoxical forces, like paradoxes. So they all fit on this tree with also this these complementary, supplementary for this, that that power things and make them work. So I was able to see how these, these tarot cards fit on this tree of life. And then how it contained this cabbalistic mystical knowledge is mystical. There’s a lot of mysticism involved here. But I could see how it fit together. And oh, here’s the part that I want to tell you. I being a PhD, you know, I’m having a PhD in Sociology, I had studied all of these, I’d studied theories of society, like how society fits together, what makes society move, like social movements, like how social movements happen, what, what you need to create a social movement, like, believe me, the CIA Studies, Sociology, because sociology has outlined, how do you make a social movement happen, which includes like a revolution, you can actually activate a revolution, it’s not that difficult. If you have certain pieces, you need certain pieces, like an example would be, you have to find a key person in the community who everybody respects and responds with, and then work with that person on developing a certain agenda, and so on. And that person will already have built in followers, that person’s a charismatic individual, then you work on creating sound bites. And you know, there are just different ways that you create a revolution. And this has been based on studies of all of the revolutions, that’s where it came from, it’s like, and it’s like extracted material from studying a revolution, then you then you would abstract it into a theory. And so this is what what people like the CIA works with these theories of revolution or theories of intervention and community something like that. So, anyway, I had studied all these theories, these grand theories of how society works, how it fits together, and economic theories how that works. When I looked at this theory, I saw that this retiro slash Tree of Life slash Kabbalah is actually a theoretical system that shows how aspects of the world fit together. And it also provides intervention points. And I believed, and I still do, that this theory that I was looking at was more comprehensive, more profound, and more precise, than anything I had studied in graduate school in sociology and psychology. I saw it I never seen anything as profound as what I was looking at and what this fish wife was showing me.

Rick Archer: Who dreamed it up. Where did where did it come from?

Pamela Eakins: Well, it’s it’s, it’s been evolving over a period of maybe a couple 1000 years or so. It is held by many groups. And when I say it’s evolving, it’s because they call it the living Kabbalah or the living tree of life. It’s the same. Basically, it’s the same structure, everybody’s holding the same structure, like the same diagrams and things like that, but it’s how followed by a lot of different groups. And so the one that is most well known would be as a tear, Judy is. But also, it’s the the Masons, the Rosicrucians. The Gnostic Christians, there are many, many groups, all Western groups, okay, so this is a Western, a Western system, a very profound Western system. And also the the diagram of the Tree of Life also accounts for Eastern Eastern ways of knowing, because you can actually place them on the diagram, which is something I’ve done, I actually have a seminary, I have started to seminary. This is another story, I don’t really want to go into it too much right now. But I have a seminary where we use this system, and we look at all of the world’s religions, all the dominant, the most dominant religions are most known religions. But what I wanted to say about the Masons, the Masons, and I should have known this, but I didn’t. So I come out of a, I do have Masonic history in my family, but the Masons are very, very secretive. And even my grandfather, who was a Mason, my grandmother, they never spoke about what they learned it was you were not supposed to speak about it. That’s all there was to it. But as I got deeper into the study of this, what I found and what I learned, oh, I will say I did start to create a tarot deck. I did. I did. She was right. Yeah, I was destined to do that. I started to do that. And I started to study, I went to the library, this is what I did. And this is pre internet. You know, so we didn’t have the internet to go to so I went to the library looked for anything I could find. I found one thing that interested me one book, the first there was virtually nothing in the life about tarot, Kabbalah tree of life. But I found a book by Joseph Campbell, on the turbo Kabbalah tree of life. And I knew Joseph, I’d studied Joseph Campbell, you know, I knew Joseph Campbell. And I thought, oh, my gosh, Campbell did this. This is amazing. So I check that book out of the library, fearful that the library and so we’re going to make a judgement about me for checking out a book about this out of the like, because I knew the librarians. And then I take the book home. This is hilarious to me, I took the book home, I opened the book to devour it, that was my plan, the Joseph Campbell book, and out of the book, falls a tarot card. And the tarot card was the card called the Wheel of Fortune. And the Wheel of Fortune, as I now know, means your fortune is about to change. And here we go, which was not my first thought my first thought was, oh, no, someone lost their card. Oh, no, I need to take it back to the library. And then I thought, oh, no, don’t take it back. That’s going to attract a lot of attention. So I didn’t take it back. I kept it I still have it. It’s a book are in a book, I wound up creating called to row of the Spirit. So anyway, and let me tell you this part two, I found out in my studies, that as you probably know that this country, the United States, was founded, primarily and built by Masons by Freemasons. And many of the early people such as George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, almost all of them were Masons. And so they were using Masonic ideas was to create the American Revolution. And they were the also the same people who brought us the French Revolution. And what they did was they looked at this paradigm, the Tree of Life paradigm, which is from the Western mystery school that they were very versed with, they were studying it in the Masonic lodges. And on the basis of this paradigm, they effected the American Revolution, they put together all the pieces that they needed, based on this paradigm, and created the revolution and then exported it to France. And so then they did the same exact thing in France with French masons and created the revolution in France. Then, at the same time, they were constructing the US government system, which they created on the diagram. It’s a diagram of the tree of life, which is what underlies the Tarot deck underlays, a tarot deck. And the basically the diagram has with is called three powers. And they turned the three pillars into the three branches of government. And those three branches are executive, judicial and legislative, which match part of this diagram. And then it’s got three layers or three levels to it, in addition, which are horizontal, three vertical, and then three horizontal. So the three horizontal are executive, or excuse me, federal, state and local. And so those are the three levels down. So what I found out is that the entire year, CES, had been based on this particular diagram. And I did not know that in the beginning. So we think of the Tarot, as it’s a parlor game, right? And it’s a good parlor game. And it’s a fun one too. And it does have the power of predictive validity. Because it’s the reason it has that power is because it outlines a flow, and when you know what the flow is, you know what’s coming next. And it turns out that this been developed for so many years, 1000s of years, and being in a sense, it’s not perfected, it’s alive. But it turns out that this system, it’s, it’s based on ancient Egyptian teachings in ancient Greek teachings, you can study where it comes from, and I don’t want to go into that right now. But as it turns out, it matches the outflow of systems in the universe, as they are developing outside of human society and outside of human consciousness. And that would be the way what science is now discovering, and the way the prints the operating principles of the universe. And so that later brought me to one of the more recent books that I wrote called, visionary cosmology. paradigm, which is all about science. And it actually shows the outflow of how then we’re back to the very beginning of our conversation about cosmology, because it shows the outflow, well I started awakening to through the fish wife, this woman, who I only apprenticed with her for six months, and then she absolutely disappeared. She disappeared the same way she showed up, and she just got me on it got me going. And then she disappeared into the sunset in her truck. It was an amazing experience. But she wasn’t the only one I had Eastern. You know, she was Western that was Western mysteries, but Eastern mysteries, people are showing up. And I was just saying, yes, come, come. You know, ours is not a caravan of despair, hop on, you know, tell me your story. Let’s learn, you know, let’s find out. Let’s see where we’re going. You know, so it’s a very exciting time. And I was opening, opening. And as I was opening, opening, opening, I could feel almost feel the whole university that I’ve been involved in for so many years, I could almost feel it kind of receding in the rearview mirror was really interesting. As I opened to this move fast, massive, I will definitely call it now massive Spiritual Awakening on so many different levels. Yeah, once I let all these people in, and then I sought them, then I was looking and then I became one. ripening. Any anyway, yeah.

Rick Archer: Let me ask you part question. One. Okay. So I’m going to, I may need to remind you the second question after you answer the first question. The first question is, you know, you mentioned that the fish and fish woman said that they had told you that tell her that you were coming and that they had some kind of astral guides or something. So is the Tarot, inspired by some kind of astral of subtle beings? Is it something that was channeled to people 1000s of years ago and continues to be channeled and thereby developed more and more, channeled is one word cognize is another that you know, singers, cognize deeper laws of nature and express them in words. That’s the first question. The second question. You just talked about how utterly transformative this has been for you and what a massive spiritual awakening it has elicited, but you haven’t spoken too much about your inner life. You’ve spoken about a lot of events that you’ve gone through over the years, but you really haven’t talked too much about your your subjective perspective. Your you know, kind of deeper mystical changes, if any that have taken place. Part Two questions,

Pamela Eakins: okay. Okay, so, the first part of the question is about where did this come from? So we’re really talking about this, let’s say this tree of life paradigm the turbo It has history and then this is more objective. But the 10 point is based on a 10 point number system. And the 10 point number system comes from ancient Egypt, they developed it, and then it goes through Greece. So Protagoras picked it up studied in Egypt, pick up the 10 point system, because that was not being used in Greece learn the 10 point system. And in Greece, they were already using very widely, something which is also used in shamanic systems the world over. And that’s the four directions or the four elements basically consisting of fire, water, air and earth. And that was predominant in Greece in ancient Greece. And that’s seems to be very foremost in our primal thought pattern, the circle cross with you see it in cross culturally everywhere, of composing fire, water, air and earth, as these four elements that bring us into being, and then this 10 point system. And when Pythagoras picked up the 10 point system, and he brought it back to Greece, to me started teaching it in what was called at that time, that was, would be a mystery school. And he Well, because in Greece, they were using different forms of trading, and different number systems. And it wasn’t really regulated, how you would use a number, how you would want to call that how you’d use a number system for things like trading, they would trade maybe I’ll trade you this sheep for this bartering, more bartering, but not a token economy type of system, based on these numbers. And so when he introduced the 10 point system to Greece, He disrupted the culture, and his life was in danger for disrupting the culture with this idea that you could actually abstract. From this, I’m going to trade you sheep for something else, you know, you could make this abstract. So the essentially, this this is a it is, it’s a system that we don’t really realize it well, in the beginning, it was an archetypal system. And what that meant was, one wasn’t just one, one was a starting point one was original being maybe it’s arbitrary, but it’s unique, its original, it’s new. And then it moved to two becomes the power of the one moving into a space of attraction. It’s like putting up two points on a board, you start with one and Jerry, bring up another one. And all of a sudden you have directionality, maybe polarization relationship, it’s very archetypal, the number two, and then the number three, one and two come together give birth and the number three, so to sum A, new, so three is a place of birth, it’s a Space of Creation. And on down, I’m not gonna go through all of them right now. But each one very, very archetypal. And so it all comes together, sort of in the middle on the number six is six is the place of balance in the middle, it would be the sphere of mediation, it would be the sphere of understanding the sphere of truth and beauty where everything comes together. And, oh, I will mention a couple more because the number four, I mentioned 123. originality, your original original being. Two, attraction will say, three, creation, four is stabilization, because we create more things than we can possibly stabilize. And so we have to choose what are we going to pay, to nurture and to stabilize and to make sure it thrives. Number five is called cataclysm. And that’s the things that come in sideways disrupt us terrorists apart, it can be illness, financial problems, you name it, anything that is going to destroy us war. But usually what we do in our culture is we’ll go back and forth between the five and the four between Cataclysm and then restabilized and then get it stable, but then the next Cataclysm is going to come so we just get stuck between those two things. Break it up, tear it down, or build it up a tear down, build it up, tear it down, build it up, tear it down. That’s our normal way of operating. And with this, this system gives us a lot of different areas to go in. So now go to the six the six mediates between the four and the five for stabilization. Five Cataclysm six is a place of synergy. where we can pull in the aspect of building up and stabilizing. And we can also pull in the aspect of tearing down. Because there is a time for tearing down, there’s a time for building up and a time for tearing down. But that just that process is not going to be the end process. Working with those pieces in intuitive, really, learning how to understand when we need to bring in one or the other is really important. But we can’t stop there. Because if we want something to really, really change, we need to go get an I guess I’ll segue here into the second part of the question, what we need to get is new information that we don’t have yet something that’s going to pull us out of the game. See, for example, back in El Salvador, those guerrillas, the guerrillas, the government, of El Salvador and the US government, they were all in the same game. Even if they were on different sides, they were still in the same game. They were they believed that they were fighting over the same thing. And that was all there was and then we continue to fight over it. Well, according to the Tarot Tree of Life, Kabbalah, those are three different levels of the same thing. What is needed is to go to what’s called the number seven. And to make the seven real number really simple. I’m going to call it the vision quest. It’s a sphere of the vision quest. That’s where we have to go get new information we never thought about before. And so my life I think, since learning, this has basically been an ongoing vision quest. So two parts all divided the answer to Part Two into two parts. One is that I didn’t know at the time, but I know now like we all know, this is a movement. And when this woman, this fish, white collar, pulls me out of the field, spotted me in the field pulled me out of the field, and last of me to create this tarot deck. I didn’t realize that it would be part of a movie. Because there were seven decks on the market. It took us seven years to create it us is my mom painted the cards, and my mom was an art professor at a university. And I was a sociologist and a writer at some other university. And so we collaborated on this. I won’t tell you right now about that about getting my mom to do that. That was a really interesting time because she didn’t want to do with Tarot deck. She was a serious artists. My mom was a serious, very well recognized artist before she did a tarot deck. Okay, so anyway, but we did it. And it took us seven years because of the publication process and so on. By the time we finished, and by the time throw, this spirit came out, there were 700 tarot decks on the market. It had come down this concept like rain all over the planet, and we picked it up and so did a lot of other people. And it was just decks. It was all these Oracle’s the runes, the Tarot Deck, the runes, the eaching, pendulum, all kinds of Oracle’s the animal cards, everything was coming out at the same time. It all just hit OK. Why did it hit what was happening? And I think it’s been because we all knew that this that paradigm that we were living in, we got it all at the same time had to come down. But we had no leaders. We didn’t know how to move it. We didn’t know how to make it happen. And the the wisdom that began to come out was that we’re the ones we’re looking for it we’ve got to find it within ourselves. We’ve got to go to a new level within ourselves. And so for me, what happened with me was, I became a deeply introspective person. I started doing a lot of vision quest, I did Native American Vision Quest, I did a lot of meditation. I taught meditation, I opened a spiritual center, I taught lots of groups. And I just took myself deeper and deeper and deeper into my own consciousness. And then I found at certain places in my own consciousness, it felt like it was opening out into the universe, and that I began to recognize and realize in the cells of my body, I got it first intellectually, but then I got it in the cells of my body. I am living universe and all Have the processes, the laws of the universe in your care in this body, they apply to this body. So I’m coming together as a one, a one individual for a little while, and then I will disperse and become something else maybe. But the uniqueness of that individual path is absolutely critical. Because if we recognize each one of us the uniqueness, this uniqueness that we have, and then begin to step into that and push out the boundaries of that uniqueness, that may not sound like a spiritual path, but it is a spiritual path for me because, because, well, just to talk about what is, what is spirit, what does the word mean? What is it spirit, and spirit is when we’re connected with the earth, when we’re connected in the cosmos, it’s the opposite of what the youth called disconnect. It’s feeling a strong sense of connection, of belonging, I belong here, I am the universe, the universe has given birth to me. And I belong here in the universe. And that’s a big part of the message that I want to bring forward. For the kids. For the young people you belong here. You’re not an alien, and so many adults, I’m an alien here, I never fit in my family, I never belong. And it’s like, Wait a minute. Wait, let’s look at this. Let’s rethink this. Yes, you do belong here, it took 13 point 8 billion years for the universe to arrive at you, you are the state of the art university, you are at the cutting edge, and you are unique. You have this unique aspect to your DNA that no one has had before. No one will have again, let’s explore it. And who are you? The question is not Who are you to do this? The question is, Who are you not to do this? Who are you not to do this because it’s built into the universe. And when we wind up getting our, our sense of how the universe works, and how it fits together, in alignment with our bodies, ourselves, our bodies, our minds, our hearts, our spirits, getting it all in alignment, then, and our spiritual path can help us do that, then we become life alive in our task, and living in an exciting in this exciting place, where where we can, where we feel our sense of purpose and the interconnectedness of, of all ages. And so that was what I turned my attention to, not just to awakening that aliveness inside myself, but also to, through various means helping other people find this aliveness in themselves aliveness and connection. Yeah, so I don’t know if that answers the question, but I didn’t my entire life. 24/7 is dedicated and devoted to spiritual practice. I taught a meditation group last night. And the theme or the type of meditation that I taught was one that many people had experienced before, but But I brought in a version that that was for today. And for some of the issues that we were working on a loving kindness meditation, or metta meditation about, you know, cherishing ourselves, basically cherishing others, and then even cherishing our enemies because I’m working on. That’s one of the areas I’m working on myself is to redefine the enemy, internally, externally read to find the schisms in ourselves, and then find the ways spiritually to work with those schisms within ourselves and become healed and whole, an integral human being. And for me, that’s all about the spiritual path. It’s connecting us with the universe in a way that is enlivening. It makes sense to it makes sense and it works and it’s thrilling.

Rick Archer: Okay, yeah, I have a final question. I know you’re interested in paradigm shift. And, you know, our society we could say is built on paradigms. There’s a materialistic paradigm which is often, you know, considered to be the foundation or guiding light of the scientific endeavor of scientific worldview. And basically, it’s that you know, the universe is made of stuff and sort of dead and inanimate, and, you know, there’s a sort of a rant, the universe is some kind of a random process, which functions according to some laws of nature as defined by Newton and others. But nonetheless, there’s no intelligence involved this somehow this mechanistic thing that it just carries on and on its own without any guiding intelligence. And yet, obviously, there are more enlightened paradigms that have been espoused by spiritual luminaries throughout the ages. And even by scientists, I mean, many of the quantum physicist Max, Niels Bohr, and Max Planck, and all those guys studied Vedic Vedic philosophy and quoted it and felt like the new physics they were discovering jived with those ancient traditional understandings? So the question is, it seems to take a while for paradigms to percolate up into practical social structures and ways of being just as if you had dumped some paint in near the source of river, it’s gonna take a long time, not that you’d want to do this, but it’s going to take a long time for the paint to go all the way downstream and reach the ocean. So to what extent do you think the kind of newer paradigms have been have begun to percolate up, such that we could begin to see real change on on the so called surface of life, and to end when, and you might even want to resort to tarot in order to answer this question, but when if ever, do you feel like they will become predominantly and the old paradigms will be put to rest?

Pamela Eakins: Oh, my, oh, this is? It’s such an interesting question. And it’s a hard question. Because sometimes I wonder if there have always been, from the beginning, people who were awake and alive and aware, and who always had the feeling and understood and knew for themselves that the universe was alive, unconscious, I think, in all its

Rick Archer: traditions, identify them, you know, even 1000s and 5000 years ago, but they’ve been in the minority. And, you know, perhaps our hope, right? survival of the species lies in such people becoming the majority, or at least a sizable percentage of the world’s population.

Pamela Eakins: Right. So I have a client this week, I also have a private practice. And I had a client this week, a man who told me that mysticism, which would can include the idea that the reverse is conscious is sheer idiocy.

Rick Archer: There you go.

Pamela Eakins: Yes, sheer idiocy. And that that struck me as as interesting because he was us into a very, very successful Silicon Valley, high tech, CEO type. And I thought that was that was interesting. But for me, with all of the meditation I’ve done in the deep station, the intense I’m shuffling the tarot cards, they left in my hands. But with all the work that I’ve done, what’s come alive inside me is that the universe is alive is aware is conscious, everywhere, every tree, every flower, every raw. It’s all alive. It’s all conscious. It’s all in communication. And Vivekananda said, you know, to the one who was alive, aware and awake, the the rocks, and trees and rivers preach sermons, and to other, they’re just rocks and trees and rivers, you know, and to me, I’m one of the ones the rocks and trees and rivers are teaching sermons to. So I pulled out the cards, the tarot cards, maybe to end on. And I’m asking the cards, I’m saying, see this mysticism. I told that man this week, I said, I’m a mystic. And he, you know? Yeah. And basically, he was saying, it doesn’t make sense. It does make sense. And I said, but you haven’t experienced it. And I said, so you’re judging something that you haven’t experienced, but I have experienced it. And so you can judge me on that basis, if you wish, but it’s something I’ve actually had experience with in my life. And part of what I’m trying to do is open to other people’s experience as well. That is part of my mission is to listen to other people and try to open and I’m always hoping other people will also try to open but but that’s, that’s one of those release the outcome things you know, let go of the outcome. because, I don’t know, but let’s see what the Tarot has to say. Let’s ask the DRO I love to challenge it. So I’m just thinking, so you said, Well, is this ever hack? Make this more simple?

Rick Archer: Yeah. And, and, okay, I’m not asking for a timeline or one of these predictions like, you know, 2012, or whatever that thing was, but it’s like, you know, there’s a, there’s a percolation of, you know, new paradigm, new vision, new way of thinking, that slowly working its way up into the culture. And it’s kind of a hit and miss arrangement, where there’s opposing forces that would dampen down such perspective and such thinking, and there’s no clear cut assurance that one or the other is going to win out. And, but, you know, the fate of the planet hangs in the balance, as far as as far as I can tell, you know, the fate of humanity of all the species everything, there’s a lot riding on this. And so,


oh, my gosh, I am so with you.

Rick Archer: Yeah.

Pamela Eakins: And I’m so with you on this.

Rick Archer: So that gives you a moment to think a bit and she has to pull out a card and perhaps respond

Pamela Eakins: exactly, because, because but I just have to echo that really quickly. Because the what is the difference between looking at the world as if it’s dead stuff. And believe me, I met a lot of people in El Salvador who could kill because they felt they were already dead.

Rick Archer: Yeah. And even the people, they regard even the people, they kill this dead stuff, you know, whereas they were already corrupts you and I would have a real hard time squashing the bug, you know, we need to pick it up and get it out of our past. So we don’t accidentally step out because we see reverence for compassion for

Pamela Eakins: I read, thank you. Reverence for me is the key word. Because if we feel that the universe is alive, and is conscious, it takes us into a different place than if we feel the universe is made of dead stuff and is not conscious. And so so to raise awareness for the living creatures that this is another thing we can do for kids, you know, is, is help them raise their awareness, like a friend of mine has an animal rescue center around here, where they rescue wild animals, anything mountain lions, whatever, and then those they become teachers for the kids. And the kids connect with these and realize, well, this isn’t just some wild animal this this animal has personality. Okay, sorry. Just another idea while you were talking

Rick Archer: question is, what’s it going to take for the sort of more enlightened paradigm to become predominant? Right, could it be squashed and die on the vine? Or, or will it you know, eventually gain ascendancy?

Pamela Eakins: Okay, so

Rick Archer: And what can we all know everyone listening? Everyone’s interested in this, what can we all do to shepard this along?

Pamela Eakins: Everyone, okay, because I want to change the question to say, what can we do to make sure it happens? That’s because it’s a really big question that you’re asking. And I want to say what can we do to bring this forward to to help it sail and to work with the energies and to really get them to move? Let’s see what happens. Okay, here we go. Okay. All right. Here we go. Okay. The first card is called Fire sister. And the funny thing about this card is it says this card assumes that there is guidance from another plane. So on this card, you will see a salamander at the bottom of the card. The salamander says we are in the business of creating a new world because the salamander is the first creature. This is mythologically, the salamander is the first creature to be born into the new world. And we are going to create this by cheese called buyers, sister, fire represents spirit, and the sister is representing Earth. And so this is about interestingly, we’ve just been talking about bringing a new spirituality to Earth. She also has a tiger in her hair, and I just mentioned the like the mountain lion, being with the kids, but this tiger in her hair is like a different way, now in the world and working with all the different aspects and energies of the world. But her secret name, the secret name of this card is called free spirit. So it’s about getting ourselves free on Earth, and figure actually free and then when we Free ourselves up and free our imagination so that we can enter into a new new dimensions within our own being we are, quote, favored by the cool lords of the fires of spring, and the lords of the fires of spring, that has to do with with all the energies then begin to work together to bring it into form. So it’s like get yourself free. Get yourself free, that’s the that’s the essence of the energy that comes forward. So the first thing is get free and stay free. The second card that comes up is the devil, which I will also hold up that will replace the other card. The most important thing that showing on this card is it shows the people artificially separated from one another, they are chained, but they are chained, they are chained apart, but the link of the chain surrounding each one is so big, they could just lift it off. And so they’re chained by their own consciousness, it also shows an altar on the card. And the altar is only half the size it’s supposed to be, it’s supposed to be double the size. Also in Hebrew, the card is called a Yean, which means I but it means third eye, the third eye. And so having an altar, that’s only half the size is supposed to be having a focus on the third eye. And also, the idea that we can lift off the chains says what we need to do is we need to see a picture that’s at least twice the size we are seeing right now, we need to see a much larger picture. And one of the things that is whether there may be two things that are really holding us up the card is Capricorn and it’s about material, material things. And we are going to need to maybe take a new look at that it’s also about ego. So whatever our ego is associated with, we may have to let go of, and one of the models I was just looking at that I’m working with now, as I’m developing something called it’s a coming home ceremony or blessing ceremony to help heal the schism within individual people or groups of people, things like PTSD and whatever. But as as we are working with that one of the things is that if we want the same things our oppressor wants, we are never going to be able to get beyond the situation we’re in now, we have to think bigger problem in El Salvador, keep turning over the power to the next group keep turning it overturning and overturning when I was there, okay, because because everyone wanted exactly the same thing. And unless we think bigger, and we start to imagine a different kind of world, we’re not going to be able to escape the things that bind us. Okay, and so it’s going to be in releasing, releasing some of the things our ego can become attached to releasing some of the methods and ways that we do things. Okay, then. So if we do that, we keep seeing a bigger picture. The last card is all Yes, yes. Okay. Last card is called Earth sister. I love this, because this is earth sister. And she’s on the cover of the book. And she is called the mountain in fruition. And the mountain is a metaphor for life on Earth itself. She Okay, so I told you a little bit about the structure of the trial, but I’ll tell you a little bit more. So it goes on one through 10 pattern. There are four suits. One is a fire one is of water, one is a wind and one is of earth or air and earth. And so therefore elemental suits, and there are 10 stages in each suit. And then at the top of each suit. There are four face cards a mother, father, brother and sister roughly just like a kind of a regular card deck, and the earth sister, The suits are cumulative. So they go in the order of fire, water, air and earth. So by the time you get to the earth, and you’re holding inside yourself, we’re earth we’re body, Earth is body, and we’re holding inside of us the spirit, heart and mind which corresponds to the other three suits. So we are walking spirit, heart and mind in a body. Okay, so by the time you get ers sister, then there’s a father, mother, brother and sister at the top of that so she is the very last card after all, going through all the stages of spirit, which is fire all the stages of water, which is heart and all the stages of air or wind, which is the intellect and consciousness. And now she embodies it all. She does not know what the future holds. But she is 100% ready to enter every big initiation that is now going to come her way she’s prepared. And I would say, and she’s pregnant with the future, the mountain in fruition, this is earth pregnant with its future. So I would say, so what do we need to do? Get free from old ways of knowing free ourselves from aspects of the material world and our ego that are holding us back, which means we’re going to have to break through the fear, many layers of fear, realize we can just lift those genes off of ourselves right now. But if we don’t want to lift them off right now, because we’re too afraid of that, and it’s too dangerous, we’ll make a plan to lift it off over a period of time, start making the change. But start working toward imagining what it’s going to look like, imagining with our third eye, what it’s going to look like, and then allowing ourselves to know we’ve completed all the minor initiations, we’ve learned all the things we need to know. And now we don’t know where it’s gonna go ahead. But what we’re going to do is think on our feet, and we are going to go there. So that’s, that’s where we are. And we will just keep moving the energy and keep releasing the things that we need to keep releasing, and keep getting for free. So and that’s the only path we really have ahead of us. Think, at this point in time. So we’ll just keep on. Keep on opening up old bonds, Rocky and Exactly. Keep that keep that third eye. Open. And looking. Great. Yeah, keep working together.

Rick Archer: Good place to conclude. Okay, well, thank you, Pamela. I’ll just wrap it up here. Appreciate the time we’ve spent together and keep, you know, keeping on is a good place to end because we’re both we’ll both keep on doing what we’re doing and doing what we love. And hopefully we’re making some kind of a contribution to the fate of the planet. If we’re not, we’re having fun trying anyway. That’s right. Yeah. So thanks. For those who have been listening or watching, you know, my interviews tend to be rather long. And some people like that some people find them too long. But, you know, you can always watch them in bits if you’re not like I’m so long. But I like to sort of get into an extended conversation with a person and not feel that they’re rushed, or that they have, you know, sort of cut things out that they might feel are important, I should want it to be the everything you wanted to know about Pamela Eakins. But we’re afraid to ask kind of style, you know. I mean, appreciation. Good. So in any case, I’ll be continuing to do this. And Pam will be continuing to do what she does, and you can get in touch with her through her website, which I will be linking to from her page, and that as well as linking to her many books. And regarding BatGap, if you like this and would like to be notified when new interviews are posted, subscribe to the YouTube channel and or subscribe to the little email notification list that we have a link for that gap. You’ll get about one email a week if you do that. And check out the other menu items on the site, though we’ve been having some problems with the audio podcast, but we managed to fix that just yesterday. So those who’ve been having those difficulties, check you know, check your iPod or your iTunes or wherever you subscribed, you should see everything up to date. Now I think we fix those problems. So thanks again, Pamela, and thanks again to those who’ve been listening or watching and we’ll see you next week.