Nancy Rynes Transcript

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Nancy Rynes Interview

RICK: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer, Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of conversations with spiritually Awakening people. We’ve done well over 600 of them now. And if this is new to you, and you’d like to check out previous ones, go to bat gap, comm bat gap, and look under the past interviews menu. This program is made possible through the support of appreciative listeners and viewers. So if you appreciate it and like to help support it, there’s a Donate button on every page of the website. And there’s also a page for other ways to donate other than using PayPal, if you prefer that. My guest today is Nancy Rhines in NC welcome.

NANCY: Thank you for having me on.

RICK: Yeah, I feel like I know you pretty well, I’ve read your whole book, awakenings from the light in the past week, and you have quite a story. So let me just summarize your story very briefly, and then you’re going to elaborate. But um, you know, some years ago, Nancy had a very serious accident where a car hit or was he was riding her bicycle. And she was dragged under the car and suffers could have easily died or been paralyzed, suffered rather severe injuries. Fortunately, she didn’t die or get paralyzed. Then she had surgery to repair her spine. And during that surgery, she had a profound near death experience, which really transformed her life. And she a lot of wisdom was absorbed or imparted during that experience, which we’re going to be talking about today. So how’s that for a nutshell synopsis of your situation? That’s awesome. So let’s elaborate. So, you know, I realize you’ve told this story 1000 times, and it’s probably in some ways, not too pleasant to tell it, you know, because it was such a difficult experience for you both during the accident and afterwards. But people need to know about it for the context of you know, this the whole thing, what what happened to you and how you are now saying what you’re saying?

NANCY: Yeah, I think I think to kind of as a precursor, though, to to the accident, I think it’s important for people to understand kind of where I was coming from before all this happened. Because I think it gives a different context to what happened if it when people know I was a scientist, I was a science writer for a long, long time. I’ve been in the sciences and the engineering field for probably close to 20 years, or even maybe actually a little bit more by when this accident happened. So I was well steeped in the materialist, reductionist way of thinking and I was a complete skeptic, atheist most of the time, not a very kind one sometimes I would say, because I didn’t, I just thought that, you know, if you believed in anything other than, you know, this material reality, you were kind of delusional. But I think there is a part of me, though, that really wanted to believe in something else, because I had, you know, as, as a young child, I was very spiritual. I wasn’t religious, but I was very spiritual. So I moved away from that in my teens when I got interested in the sciences. And then, you know, going to grad school in the geosciences really cemented it for me, you know, that was, I was really sucked into that culture and that way of thinking. And so that’s how it was for me for the, for the following, you know, 20 years or so. Just being an atheist, agnostic, sometimes experiencing some odd things, but then I would just shut them aside, I’d get them out of my mind. I didn’t want to think about it because it didn’t fit into that worldview that I had that physical reality was all there is.

RICK: You know, it’s funny. Atheism and science are very often roughly synonymous in many people’s minds, you know, and yet, to in my mind, if you’re really a hardcore atheist, you’re not very scientific, you know, because science is supposed to be kind of a little bit open minded and open to changing their perspective. If new evidence presents itself into just to sort of adamantly say no, this could not, not possibly be, you’re not being scientific.

NANCY: Well, that’s a that’s an excellent point. And you’re right on your you’re totally right on the to me now, after having gone through all of this, to me now, the quintessential scientist is someone who is opening really curious. And is is open to looking at, you know, experiences and data and information across the board, whether it sounds weird or not, because honest to God. And I mean, that literally, quantum physics is the weirdest thing anybody has ever taught. Yeah, and it’s been proven to be right, like, How weird is that? Right? It’s just from our perspective, or at least my perspective, as someone who had been in the physical sciences, quantum physics is just like, crazy weird, but it’s true. Yeah. And it’s been proven and multiple, multiple, multiple hundreds of experiments, even probably in the 1000s by now. So why can’t we use that as an example? To really truly be scientists and look at what’s all of the data no matter what it is? Yeah, what it is, so I guess maybe,

RICK: you know, obviously, very few people really understand quantum physics. And I’ve heard some great quotes about from I forget who Max Planck or somebody about how if you think you understand it, you don’t or something like that. But um, I think one thing that happens a lot with new agey people is they they gain a some, you know, a loose layman’s understanding of quantum mechanics, and then they kind of extrapolate it to the macro world to the world of everyday living. And I think some scientists kind of cringe when they hear people doing that, because it doesn’t necessarily translate.

NANCY: Well, that actually is not quite true anymore. Okay. So let’s talk about it. There are several scientists now and and I’m trying to think like, I like blanking on names, but Brian Greene is one of them. He’s the string theorist, Michio Kaku, and there’s a couple other ones. Thinking about try, I think Travis Taylor is another. But there are there’s a, there’s a lot of movement within quantum physics right now. And especially kind of the younger crowd to look at those those rules or that stuff that happens at the very micro level. And see if it does actually influence the macro. And they’re starting to find out that, you know, it doesn’t just pertain to electrons or subatomic particles, it pertains to molecules, which are groups of atoms. So we’re kind of getting up and up and up in scale as to where they’re seeing those quantum effects. But I think it’s going to be years before they completely make that jump to say, well, here, yeah, we can see that it does affect the macroscale. And here’s how, but there’s an opening, and there’s definitely curiosity, and there’s some investigation and research. So that’s a good sign. Because we are all made up of subatomic particles and energy. Technically, all energy. So at some level, there are quantum effects going on everywhere.

RICK: Yeah. And I think perhaps an even more fundamental point, and we’ll get to your story pretty soon. But this is fun. You know, the whole argument about whether the brain produces consciousness or consciousness is fundamental, and everything arises from that fundamental field, and you’re in Tucson, where they have that consciousness conference at the university there, or used to have before COVID. And he also told me like Rupert Sheldrake podcasts, and he and some of his colleagues wrestle with this topic, but um, you know, most I’d say, still, the majority of scientists think that well, the brain produces consciousness and therefore when the brain dies, that’s the end of consciousness and therefore, it’s the end of you. But you know, there’s a flip side where people say, No, you’ve got it upside down. In fact, I have a friend who wrote a book called The, the end of upside down thinking, Mark Goldberg read that book. Yeah, I’ve interviewed him. He’s a great guy. So why don’t you riff on that thought just for a little bit?

NANCY: Well, I would have been in in that brain produces consciousness camp, you know, before this accident, so seven half, eight years ago, I would have been in that camp. That’s where I was. Even though I had some bizarre experiences that were starting to make me question that just a little bit, then I’d shut the door on that questioning again, because it was just to it not necessarily, I guess in some ways, it was too hard to think about that, because it was just so different from what we’ve been taught in the sciences that to think that way means Oh, my gosh, now I’m gonna have to really rethink my entire worldview. And that’s, you know, that’s kind of tough to do, especially when you’re doing it voluntarily. As a scientist, it’s just a, it was a bridge too far for me, at that point. Now, after having gone through, and there’s a, there was a point during the accident, when it happened, which I’ll talk about in a minute. But when I, when, when I had that, that incident that happened, where I was in multiple places at once. I remember thinking, and I, you know, I was conscious through the whole thing. I remember thinking, after this happened, that one point in the accident alone, is going to change the way that I think about reality. And I knew that because it was so, so groundbreaking for me. So now, yes, to me, consciousness is fundamental. And I would say that the I go a little bit further than my, you know, former scientist would any, even a scientist who actually is a spiritual scientist, we’ve got a number of people that I know are like that, but I will even go so far as to say that, that yes, our consciousness is actually creating a portion of this reality, if not all of it. Yeah. And, and that, to me, that’s kind of where I am right now. I’m just trying to figure out how to touch on that and make that more attainable for people to listen to more concrete. But But that’s where I’m feeling. That’s where I’m going now. It’s it’s a gut sense that that’s the way that that this works, especially with people like Leonard says kind and several others who are talking about this whole simulated reality thing. And they’re coming at, like, simulated reality from the standpoint again, of a of a atheist. I’m not to me, Wilkie, we can talk about this too. But this is another thing that occurred during my nd when I realized that this reality that we’re all living in right now is a simulation, or an illusion, or a dream or whatever word you want to use, none of those words really are adequate. But as soon as I had died, and I got my consciousness, you know, into that, what we might call the afterlife, which isn’t the right word either. But I knew that this wasn’t what we thought it was. That this reality is not the be all and end all of existence. And we’ll we can talk about that a little bit more. So no, I’m not. I’m not. I’m definitely into the consciousness is fundamental. It’s all connected. And it may all be one consciousness. So the non duality thing.

RICK: Yeah, because if there is an ultimate reality, then what is what are the less ultimate realities really made of? A look at them closely and boil them down to their essential constituent, it all ends up being the same thing. And that’s why the, you know, Vedic Tradition says things like, you know, that alone is and all of this is that and, and, and so on.

NANCY: Yeah. Yeah. And I finally get that now. Or at least as much as I can in the moment, right. I am not certainly not a philosopher by any stretch of the imagination, but I’m starting to understand what they were talking about. It makes sense. Totally makes sense.

RICK: Well, I think we’ve teased people enough in terms Okay, alluding to your accident and your experiences you had during it. So you did mention that you had a few weird things happen in your life before then which kind of challenge you a bit but you brush them aside or are those worth getting into it all or you want to go straight to the accident?

NANCY: You know, they might be worth getting into afterwards. Okay, because I think that it almost makes more sense to talk about them either partway through or right after I talk about the end itself, because they fit. They fit better that way.

RICK: Alright, so don’t don’t forget to do that.

NANCY: Okay, I’ll keep my fingers crossed. Remember,

RICK: I’ll make a note Weird things.

NANCY: Yeah, we’re things would be good. Yeah, there’s a couple of them, I think that are worth mentioning. Okay. Because they’re sort of related to all this. Yeah. Yeah. So in, it’s been about seven and a half years ago now that this accident happened, it was in January of 2014. At that point I was living in near Boulder, Colorado. So in the kind of the northwest suburbs of Denver, and the the climate out there, for those who who don’t live in that area don’t know the climate in the wintertime. It’s often the case where we could go out on bike rides during the middle of the day, because it wasn’t really all that cold.

RICK: Yeah. And then the next day, you could have a foot of snow. The next day, it’s 70 degrees.

NANCY: Exactly. So this this particular day, it was a Friday, I was off from work for that whole week, I had taken off work for the holidays, and just decided to go on a bike ride in town to do some errands, no big deal done it before. And went out. The bizarre thing though, before I went out on, got to the garage, got my bike out. And I had that there was a feeling I had in my gut that told me Don’t do this. Don’t go out today. And I just like, brushed it aside, it’s like, I don’t know why I wouldn’t go out today I have these errands to run. And it seems nice. And there’s hardly any traffic. So I’m going to go. So I went out on my bike ride. And within probably a half a mile, I think it’s wasn’t that far from my from my house, there was a traffic circle that had just been put in at that, at that time, the Denver area was starting to get a lot of these, you know, roundabouts or traffic circles put in and like nobody knew how to use them. We all hated them. Nobody knew how to use them. And I was on a bike. And there was a bike path like a bike lane coming into the traffic circle. And there was one on the other side going out. But they hadn’t done anything, like put a bike lane in the traffic circle or a way to get around it, you know, other than go through it. And this particular one was very narrow, there was not a lot of room to maneuver, it was probably a little bit too tight. Just from the design perspective. So I get into it. There’s a guy driving behind me in a like a Subaru wagon type of thing. And then off to my right, there’s a street coming in to the traffic circle that’s going to intersect it. And they were supposed to stop that that road coming in from the right was supposed to stop at the circle before proceeding. So I’m in the circle. And all I’m going to do is go around and then out the other side. Because I was just going to go straight basically try to go straight through it. And I get up to where that road comes in from the right. And I noticed that there are two vehicles like one a really large SUV. And then behind that was a truck of like a small truck of some kind that were coming in. And it looked like they were slowing down. And I am kind of watching them and watching where I’m going. But at the last minute I could tell that that front vehicle the the big SUV, which turned out to be like a Tahoe sized vehicle. Instead of slowing down, she decided to speed up and kind of she ran basically ran through it. Well, I was right there. So she, you know, she hit me like this broad. Yeah, on my right side. And I remember putting my hand out, like I thought that there was enough room like maybe, you know, I could push myself away from her. This was like beyond thinking at this point. But I was trying to push myself like this out of off off of her. Somehow I ended up I must have done a flip in the air and landed on the hood of her vehicle. Just like you know, I’m grasping on the hood of her vehicle as she’s driving around this traffic circle. And the bizarre thing is I’m thinking okay, she’s gonna stop, right? Like, if she would have stopped it wouldn’t have been that horrible of a thing. But she didn’t stop. She didn’t see me on her hood. She was texting. And she had her phone up on the steering wheel and she was looking at the phone. Didn’t notice that she had just run over someone’s bicycle and there was a bicyclist on her hood looking at her. And so she kept

RICK: kids in the car like staring at you or something Yeah,

NANCY: she had two little kids in the backseat there was like, I could see them. They knew I was there. I think they were probably screaming at her. Yeah, it’s my guess they’re two little boys, I believe they were probably, I think the police officer said, like seven and five years old. And I, if I remember, right, the woman’s mother in law was sitting in the front seat as well in the passenger seat. But none of them could get her to stop, like this woman was bound and determined to keep driving. And so she kept driving, and I just couldn’t hang on anymore. Like I couldn’t find any, I wasn’t far enough up to grab on to anything I could hold on to. So I slipped off and slipped down. And, and it’s like every bicyclists nightmare to be in this situation where somebody is going to run you over. And so I fell off the front of her vehicle, you know, I’m trying to grab on to stuff. Try not to get on the ground, because I assumed if I if I hit the ground, she was going to run right over me. And that was, I just assumed that would be it. Like, that was going to be game over at that point. So I did actually I couldn’t grab on anything I did hit the ground with my, my left side. And I heard I heard, you know, I heard bones breaking, which is very disturbing. If you’ve ever done that before, you know, how disturbing that sounds. I heard, you know, I heard my my collarbone go. And several other I mean, it was just a it was a mess. We can talk about that in a little bit. But, but I hit the pavement. And first, you know, some, you know, happenstance, I was right in between her wheels. And I was positions such that she wasn’t going to run over me at first, but she was in a turn. And so I kind of figured that her back wheels would probably impact me. So there was a at this point, there was a little instinct that took over I reached up under her I was at this point under her vehicle like where the axle is, and I reached up like this and grabbed the axle. It’s the only thing I could think of to do. And and then when that happened, I had also had like a bicycling backpack on when I was in the accident. And there was a chest strap that went across the front, well, that somehow got stuck on on something on her axle or in that undercarriage area. So that was dragging as well. So that was stuck on something. And then I had reached up and grabbed the axle. So she was at this point, dragging me underneath. But the that funky thing that I talked about a little while ago, when when my shoulder and head and hit hit the pavement, after I came off a vehicle. That’s when all of a sudden I was in two places at once. And that really freaked me out. I was there was a part of my consciousness. And I call it my you know, my human level of consciousness that was that was in my body and experiencing the accident. And then what what some people might call a soul or the higher self or whatever, there was a higher part of my consciousness that was almost propelled out of my body and ended up standing at the side of the road was kind of watching all this unfold. And it had a different perspective on everything. And that part of me, what I noted was more of my true self, my truest self, it was very calm, very gentle and compassionate, loving and accepting of what was happening. My

RICK: question here, I’ve had accidents where, you know, despite the pain and the trauma of the accident that’s taking place, like falling off a bicycle or, you know, the other couple months ago, I tripped over something and fell on my face on some concrete but there’s a kind of inner silence that witnesses and it’s not perturbed by the trauma, but I’ve never had one I don’t think where I was like six feet or 10 feet away observing it from the outside, which is what you’re describing. So do you how do you what do you make of that after all this time and you’ve had plenty of time to think about it? Why did that happen? Any idea?

NANCY: Well, that’s yeah, it gave me some pause. Really, you know what I was laying in the ER after after the accident. I have thought about that all day. And of course, I’ve been thinking about it a lot over the last seven and some years. So the way that I view it is, I don’t know, may or may not be absolutely right. But it feels close for me right now is that, you know, whatever this human body is, it has some level of consciousness on its own. You know, maybe the brain does produce a little bit of consciousness, I don’t know. But there is there is a basic level of consciousness may call it personality, and whatever. That’s, some people call it the ego that’s really attached and stays with the body. And that’s, that was what stayed with me. And that that part of me that was in my body was very fearful. Of course, why wouldn’t you be and feeling pain and feeling absolute terror, and it was it was in that flight or fight mode, that that part of me that was propelled out, it was almost like 50 feet away, it was, it was quite a ways off from the accident. That is what I would consider now maybe my higher self or a higher state of our of our own awareness

RICK: or subtle body. I mean, some traditions would say we have a subtle body, which is what carries on when we die, or which maybe during an operation we were watching from the ceiling or something like that, you know, right. Yeah,

NANCY: there’s so many different terms for it. And I don’t think any one of them are really quite right. I don’t think we really quite have the full understanding of what that all is at this point. But it but it certainly some kind of eternal consciousness part of me, or that I was a part of was out there and separate

RICK: just sent me a comment said it’s quite common for people who have severe trauma to you know, leave their bodies or witness it like that. It’s kind of the ultimate coping mechanism.

NANCY: I think it’s it’s a savior mechanism. Yeah, you know, it really is it’s, but it for me, it was definitely two very different states of consciousness. One was fearful and Trump in traumatize the other one was very spiritual, very aware, very connected, almost knew the future, and knew that everything was going to be okay.

RICK: Kinda reminds me of Woody Allen saying, I don’t mind dying, I just don’t want to be there when it happens. So it’s kind of like you’re not there, you stepped out?

NANCY: Well, I think that’s really what happens for a lot of people, it for my experience of working with people who are in the, in the dying process, I think that a turtle part of their, their soul souls with, that’s what you want to call it moves on well, before the body actually physically dies. I’ve seen that many, many times. And we can talk about that, you know, a little bit later when we kind of wrap up what I’ve done since then. But I think that’s to me, what it what it represented was showing me these two different levels of, of the conscious body. And, and that’s when I started to really think about and understand that my worldview could very easily change just as a result of that alone. I remember thinking that to myself a lot. That in especially over the next few days, is that was just so I that wasn’t anything they taught me in school, you know, they didn’t teach me that, you know, consciousness can be outside of the body, and getting details that I couldn’t have seen from my physical body. You know, there were things that I saw from outside that being stuck under the truck. I couldn’t physically see with my physical eyes. Yeah.

RICK: Isn’t that interesting? It’s just like, we have set senses in the subtle body which actually don’t need physical a physical body to operate. In fact, I’ve heard of people who were physically blind, you know, eyes totally ruined, who actually somehow had the ability to see because they are so tuned into that subtle body. There was one guy who could ride a bicycle through an obstacle course with his head completely wrapped in a turban stuff like that.

NANCY: Yeah, well, I can understand a little bit more now how that kind of thing happens. Yeah, I can’t do that myself. But

RICK: try this at home. Yeah, don’t Alright, so let’s move on to the car and continue Yeah.

NANCY: So what I did it like what my, my body consciousness didn’t know but my, my soul consciousness from outside is The guy that had been in the truck behind this woman got up to the traffic circle. And he somehow managed he saw what had happened. And he managed to drive his truck around the traffic circle the wrong way Wow, to try to head her off amazing, which was pretty dangerous maneuver. But but he was bound and determined he was going to stop her. And that was really the only thing that stopped her it was him. Yeah, blocking the road with with his truck. So you know, so grateful for him for doing that. And then when when when she finally did stop, it had been, I think they had the cops, sorry, the police officers that she had dragged me for at least 60 feet, perhaps closer to 75. It was really tough to tell. But anyway, I was under there a while. And so when they when she finally stopped the vehicle, my first thought was I want to get up in Iran. And it was weird how it was almost like I couldn’t control that instinct to get up and run. I just wanted to get up and get the heck out of there fight or flight. Right, it was super strong. And I saw I started to wiggle my way out. Which I’m surprised that I didn’t do severe damage to my spine at that point. But I was like, Wait, trying to wiggle my way out. And I was able to get like my head and the upper part of my shoulders out from underneath of her of her front end of the of her SUV. And then a woman ran up and put her hands on my shoulders and said don’t move. I’m a nurse, I’m a trauma nurse, and you need to stay safe, you need to stay still, you need to stay safe. And if she hadn’t done that I might not have survived. Because my my spine was really bad shape, especially my neck. It was in tough shape. I think they the doctor later told me that if I would have just even turned like that I would have been a goner, because my my spine was just almost crushed up by my sweater, the neck meets the skull. So it was it was pretty dicey there for a while. But she kept me you know, she kept me in one place until the paramedics arrived. And then once they started working on me, they they prata just a little bit like very gently trying to figure out what what hurt which was basically everything. And I remember screaming, and when I scream that’s one that part of me that was that higher self that sold part of me that was outside came back in it was like when the two came back together when the pain flooded back in. And you know from there on, I mean, they got me to the ER, and which wasn’t too far away. Luckily, it was only about I don’t even half a mile away from the accident. And it turned out that I had at least. So they basically kind of stopped counting bone breaks, because there were just too many. They thought it was probably at least 24 Different broke bones that were broken. And they were broken in multiple places. And so my spine was the worst. As you can imagine, it was the worst hit the my L one vertebrae, which is your lower back was basically blown apart. There wasn’t really much left of it. And my neck was in that much better shape. So they wanted to you know, they were thinking, Well, you’ve got a couple of choices here. Luckily, I could still feel my legs, even though one was just a little bit numb on one side, I could still move I could still feel my legs. So they thought well, we’ll do we can do surgery to stabilize all that so that it will heal properly. And if we do that, you know your chances of being able to walk again are pretty good. The other option was to lay flat on my back in a hospital room for at least six months.

NANCY: And that was not an option for me. I just couldn’t imagine. Like I don’t like to be a patient in a hospital at all. Even for an outpatient procedure, let alone for six months so that wasn’t going to work.

RICK: Even that seems improbable because you know you have all these bones splinters and never And, and how could you just lying there? prevent those from eventually, you know, poking into your spine? I mean into your spinal cord?

NANCY: Yeah, that was my big that was actually my biggest concern because that you know that L one vertebrae was shattered and those little shards were just all over the place. I mean, I think they knew what I was going to choose. I don’t think there was really it wasn’t it wasn’t rocket science to figure out what what option Nancy was going to choose.

RICK: So the juicy part is yet to come because you had you had this operation in a few days and had this amazing experience during it.

NANCY: Yeah, I. So they wheeled me into the o. R, again, fully conscious, and gave me the anesthesia general anesthetic. And it’s, it’s important to note that I’ve that I’ve had surgeries before, I’ve had this exact same general anaesthetic before, no problems ever, maybe just a little bit of, you know, queasy stomach or something, but nothing like what we’re going to talk about next. But so I’ve had I’ve, I’ve had this before. Granted, I hadn’t had a physical trauma like that before. But I have had that anesthesia before, but they gave it to me. And I started to drift off. And I noticed that all of a sudden, everything didn’t go black. I was I was standing up, like, you know, like, looking around. And I thought, what’s going on this? Is that right? And I was standing up and it was I was outside? Which of course you know, I wasn’t but I remembered that I was in surgery. So I had this concept of huh. I was just in surgery. What am I doing right now standing up? And why am I outside and that’s really pretty though. It was a beautiful meadow up in the mountains. And I was thinking to myself, well, this isn’t bad. I could be here while they do surgery on me. I could this is okay. And then I started noticing weird, like what I would call weird things. I started feeling very peaceful. But it wasn’t like it was me it was like peace was an energy that was coming into me from the outside. And then I started feeling love coming in like that’s the only word I have to describe it is love or compassion or something. It was like it was coming into me from the outside like, like if you’re going to stand in front of a fire or fireplace on a cold day. And you feel that warmth from the fire kind of radiating through you. That’s what this was like. It was like, it was like that warmth from a fire. But it wasn’t warmth, it was compassion and love and acceptance. And that’s when I started to think, well, this isn’t normal. I don’t remember anybody talking about this during surgery, and I’ve never had this happen during surgery. I wonder if I died. And I’m going through this whole like, trying to tick off things of what could be happening. And I and there was that moment I thought well wait, wait a minute, if I did die, what’s this? I don’t believe that anything, you know, it happens after death. What What am i What is this place? What am I doing here? And I and then I went back to my programming that I had like as a little kid because I grew up in a Catholic family. Irish Catholic family for the most part. And I went back to my you know, the schooling that you had in Catholic grade school, which I went to, which would which always told me that you know, if you don’t believe in God, when you die, you’re gonna go to hell. And so I pulled back on that and went Wait, just this isn’t making any sense because that my training teaches me that I shouldn’t be experiencing anything other than hell at this point. Why am I being accepted into this place of love? And I was just struggling with what to do with all of this when there was like a, it was a voice but it wasn’t like a physical voice. There was a voice that that came through. And it was just kind of generically saying this is your home. Welcome home and I thought about that for a while, and then I kind of started to remember. Oh, wait, and I was almost like I was looking down I would there wasn’t anything to see down below me. I was just like looking down thinking, wait. That’s right, that life that I just came from that wasn’t real. That was the dream. This is my home. It was like starting to come back. Oh, yeah, now I get it this, this is real.

NANCY: And I and I really started to weep. It was just so beautiful. I was so accepted. But but just remembering that I was finally home was just so beautiful. I couldn’t, I just was so happy to be back. And it was about at that point that I started to see what I would call it, I just call it a spiritual being some a being just a general, a very general, vaguely human form, kind of vaguely a woman but you know, she said, You know, that’s not really who I am. It’s just a cloak I’m wearing to make it easier for you to communicate with me. But so some kind of a spiritual entity or spiritual being came up to me and, and said that she was my teacher, or my guide. I prefer the term teacher now. But she’s my she was my teacher. And she would help me learn what I needed to learn.

RICK: Did you get the impression? She was saying that she was your teacher for that moment? Or had been your teacher for a long time or something

NANCY: that had been my teacher for a long time? Okay. That was the that was the the sense that I got and I kind of remembered her it was more like, oh, yeah, I kind of know who you are. Like, there was a there is a vague memory there.

RICK: Do you think everybody has a teacher like that that’s assigned to them? Or perhaps each teacher such as her has a dozen people that they look out for or anything? Any thoughts on that?

NANCY: Yeah, probably multiple. I know. I mean, I have asked her, I asked her about that a little bit. And she definitely said, it’s not, it’s not a one to one thing. So she has a lot of different people that she helps, not just me. And, and it makes it that makes total sense. Given that time, it doesn’t really exist in that state of being the way that it does here. So there’s not a sense of linear time. It’s just now and, and there’s no sense of time flowing. And oh my gosh, I can’t get it back. Because now that’s the past and I can’t go there. So so the fact that she may have, I don’t know, 50 or 100 students doesn’t really matter, that she can, you know, handle all of that. So she, she told me that, you know, she was going to help me remember and learn what I needed to learn. And I got stuck on the end, you’re gonna go back thing. I did not want to go back to that life. Not only was I was I was scared, you know, I was scared of what my body would be like, I was afraid that maybe I’d be a paraplegic. When they got done with the surgery, I had no idea what was gonna happen. Or, you know, just having a mobility impairment, I just couldn’t wrap my brain around, coming back into that, after having been to this amazing place that I was in. And she said, Well, you’ve already agreed to go back. So you’re gonna go back at the end of this. And I’m like, I don’t remember agreeing to that. And I actually said that I’m like, I don’t remember agreeing to do that. And so if anybody’s seen the movie, the shack, which came out after my experience, but that movie, there’s a set a couple of scenes in that movie where the protagonist is shown, like a vision of his life kind of in the air in front of him. And he gets to do what we call a life review. Well, I was, in that moment, showing something very similar. It was, like, almost like a video screen in the air. And my, my teacher showed me, me before my birth, kind of in like in general terms, agreeing to do certain things or agreeing to experience certain things or agreeing to learn certain things. So you know, I was I wanted to learn some stuff. I wanted to do some stuff. And I had made a commitment that if I hadn’t led a spiritual path or taking a spiritual path by A time I was in like my mid 30s, then this event would happen, the one that was causing this.

RICK: Wow. Now that’s interesting. So so first of all, if people want to delve into this notion, you can read Michael Newton’s books, or I’ve interviewed a guy named Rob Schwartz, who talks about, you know, between life, yep, situations where we decide what’s going into our life. But what you just said, you know, this sounds, there’s a verse in the Yoga Sutras, which goes, am Dukkha monogame, which means avert the danger, which has not yet come. And the implication is that by doing enough spiritual practice making enough spiritual progress, you can avert calamitous situations which you will otherwise have to undergo, because whatever you will have sort of made the transition or learned what you needed to learn in order not to have get smacked over the head to learn it, you know, so, so what you just said, it’s very interesting that you had you somehow rather, you know, gotten on a spiritual path earlier, this accident wouldn’t have had to happen at all,

NANCY: it wouldn’t have been necessary. Yeah. Wow.

RICK: And, you know, you’ve come up with so much interesting stuff, which we haven’t even gotten into yet that you learned in that between life or that near death experience. And maybe you would never have been able to convey such knowledge to people if you hadn’t gone through something like this. It’s hard to say

NANCY: it Yeah, it is. And I, I don’t, I don’t waste a lot of my energy. Because I’m here, you know, I haven’t figured out a way, at least in this life, to go back in time and change things. So.

RICK: And actually, what I just said doesn’t make sense. Because there are plenty of spiritual teachers who are saying the kinds of things you say, without having had a car accident? Or yeah, your death experience? Yeah.

NANCY: Yeah. And who? I mean, who knows that? Maybe I would have learned it. Maybe not? I don’t know. Yeah. But, you know, I went through it. And in here I am.

RICK: So let that be a warning to everybody. But he got on the spiritual path.

NANCY: Well, I think that’s a really, that’s an interesting point to bring up. Because I think that if I look back, if I would have really delved into my spirituality in my 20s, actually, when when I first had my first inkling to do so I, just because of the kind of personality I have, I would have dived in headfirst and just glommed onto it. I probably wouldn’t have needed this accident.

RICK: But yeah, and that just one more point I’ll throw in, and then you can keep telling the story. But, you know, some people would see an accident like that as either an accident, and then there’s no meaning to it, it just stuff like that happens. Or they might see it as some kind of punishment from God, or some such thing can be interpreted in negative ways. But what you’re implying, is that a obviously negative, unpleasant and traumatic thing can be in the bigger picture in service to our spiritual growth. Right. Yeah, that’s true Entire societies as well as individuals,

NANCY: we can learn and it’s unfortunate that, at least me and I think a lot of people a lot of humans learn best through the school of hard knocks. This was a real hard. But But we, you know, we do and I, and I did and I honestly, it’s painful as it was. I will say that I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t trade it for anything you couldn’t, you couldn’t take that away from me right now. Like, there’s no way that I would give it up even with all of the pain and the recovery. And, you know, the, the anxiety once in a while that came with all of this. I still wouldn’t trade it for the world. It was that transformative for me

RICK: true. But if you could have if you could really play with time and say, Alright, I’ll get into spirituality, my 20s and get really into it, then. You’d probably prefer that to having this happen.

NANCY: It would have been a lot less painful. Yeah, so um, yes. So she showed me this, this view of me agreeing to certain things and saying, You know what I wanted to experience and learn and do and then I remember when I was like, oh, yeah, I remember that. Now. Shoot, okay. And I just sort of played along with it. Honestly, I really. I was still hoping that I could pull one over on and just stay there. But I just played along and and learned and whatever. She decided she wanted to teach me I just went along with it and learned as much as I could. Not that I had much of a choice, by the way, because I was there with her and I didn’t know, you know what else to do with myself, I guess I could have just stood around and enjoyed the scenery, but but I just let her teach me. And it’s a lot of the stuff made sense. But a lot of it hadn’t. I hadn’t ever really thought about before. Um, you know, depending on the day, people asked me, like, a lot of people ask, well, what’s the most profound part of it? For the most part, on most days, I will say it was my life review. And that’s not what I just told you about. I had a real life review, which happened, you know, kind of a little bit later in the process where I was shown, like, I know, sir, they used she used the surface of the of a pond, a virtual pond, but the surface of a pond as kind of a movie screen. And one of there were a lot a little different. They look like little YouTube, I call them little YouTube videos of different parts of my life where I could, if I looked at one of those little scenes from my life, I could dive right into it and be right there again. And, and she showed me this first specific reason. She wanted me to see the impact that my, my thoughts, my feelings, my words, and my actions had on not just me, but people around me in the world around me. And so I, I kind of examined a point in my life where I had said something intentionally to hurt my sister. It was just a, you know, one of those spiteful sibling comments, that was awful. And it was when I was in my late teens, and she was really hurt by that, but I didn’t know it at the time, it actually happened. But in this review, not only could I see it, like it was a video, but then I dove into it. And I was back in it again. And I wasn’t back in it only from my viewpoint. I could experience her viewpoint at the same time. So I was experiencing her hurt, and her feelings of betrayal. At the same time, and this is this always gets me at the same time that I was spewing this garbage out at her, I could feel like it was me like I was being just hit with the stuff that I was spewing out. And I could just feel how horrible she was. She was just devastated by what I said. And to me, it wasn’t it wasn’t that bad. But to her it was. And I had done it intentional

RICK: malice that until you had this during an NDA.

NANCY: Yeah, and part of that teaching was just how connected we all are, you know, there, I can’t say or do anything without it impacting someone else. Even if you don’t want to think about it, it still impacts other people. And so today, that whole lesson around, that I learned during that life review, really, really truly does impact the way that I deal with other people just on a day to day basis. Sometimes I slip up and you know, get a little bit out of that conscious state. But, but I’m hyper aware of how what I say and do impacts other people. Doesn’t mean I’m a doormat or anything like that. But you know, you can certainly take an extra couple of seconds to be kind to someone and not, you know, rip them apart. So it’s a it’s a more conscious way of communicating than I have these days as a result of that one experience.

RICK: Did you go through a lot of little vignettes like that, and your NDA or was that just like, I mean, were there dozens of them and you went into this one and this one or this one? Yeah. Okay.

NANCY: Yeah, I usually just talk about two because it doesn’t really do any good to talk about each individual one but so that was an like a negative where I said or did something negative and saw how that impacted other people. And then there was a, there was always a balance. So that so I was that was always balanced out with something good, something positive, something loving. And that was so that one was balanced out with a time that I was at the grocery store. And it was during the Christmas rush. It was just like a few days before Christmas one year. And this was in the bowl. their area. And the teller the checkout person was having a really bad day I could tell there was screaming kids and the woman that was in the checkout line ahead of me was, honestly, she was being really nasty. I think she was having a bad day. So she was just taking it out on the on the checkout woman. So when I got up to, you know, to have my stuff checked out, I just looked at her and gave her a big smile and said, you know, thank you so much for doing such a good job. And for being so patient with everybody I know, I really appreciate it, and a lot of other people do too. So just giving that little bit of love as much as I could. To help her feel better. I was able to feel how much that lifted her up just in that moment, it really helped her. It lifted her spirits enough that she could go home and on a positive note, and not take that negativity with her home to her family.

RICK: Yeah. And you can explain nicely how the influences of our actions spread out like ripples on the pond, and how they can, you know, cancel out through destructive interference, they can cancel out the ripples of negativity that others might be emanating. And there’s no limit to there. I mean, I think that every influence we generate goes ripples out through the whole universe. Actually, it does. And it might be hard to understand the mechanics of that, since we’re, you know, separated from things by light years, but I think they do.

NANCY: Yeah, they do. And it’s and that was a, that was another piece of this teaching is, you know, your words and actions go out and influence the physical world, yes. But they also have a spiritual energy, a spiritual echo, that goes out as well. It isn’t just on the physical level, it’s on all levels, and it goes out just across the universe. So you know, you can do meditate, I still do meditations pretty much every day. I guess, I don’t know if they’re considered meditations, but I do send out energy loving energy to at least my neighborhood, you know, as much as I can, because that stuff really does make a difference. It really does have an impact. Yeah, so that was I think that for the most part that that life review, overall, was probably the most transformational aspect of this because it was just so obvious and visceral and, and I could experience other people’s thoughts and feelings, like, how does that work? And well, it works. Because we’re all connected. We’re all one. Especially at that spiritual level.

RICK: It’s interesting how people who have indies often report having life reviews, even though they’re not gonna die. And the guide that has met them knows they’re not gonna die, but they it’s time for a life review, you know?

NANCY: Yeah. Well, I think it’s a it’s a good way to get yourself set back on a good path when you come back. Yeah.

RICK: It’s like a turnip or something.

NANCY: Do you remember to remember this lesson? Like this is an important one if you don’t, if you don’t learn anything else learn this. Just how connected we all are. That was my biggest lesson. And how much you can’t you know, there’s no separation really, there’s no, there is no distance. It’s all one. It’s all love. It’s all compassion. Yeah, it’s it is it, a lot of us have to have that I think to get ourselves back on a healthy, good conscious path. When we get back and those every nd I’m not gonna say every nd IR I’ve talked to I would probably say 90% of the ones that I’ve spoken with personally will say that their life review absolutely was the most transformative thing if they won some, but yeah, it’s, it’s profound. I sort of wish I could, you know, there’s a part of me that wishes I could figure out how to, to allow people here in the physical to have one of those without dying first.

RICK: Well, I don’t know about having life reviews. But you know, I think that people who do a deep spiritual practice for a long time, end up processing a lot of stuff, you know, and even in my own experience, meditating for 53 years, but I often have gone through things where I’ll, I’ll flash on something that happened when I was seven years old or 17 or something like that and kind of work. walk through it, you know and learn something from it. It’ll just happen. It’ll just bubble up spontaneously and then dissipate. So, you know, I don’t think we have to have a near death experience to undergo the kind of learning that you had. There are other ways.

NANCY: I think that’s probably the gentler way to experience those things and to and to process them. Let them let them happen on their own. Yeah, come out on their own. And of course,

RICK: there are therapies and that people do and there are things like ayahuasca and various other things that people do to explore this stuff, then everything has different effects. But yeah,

NANCY: yeah. Yeah. So that that was the, I would again, say that was probably the most transformative one, the one thing, but But you know, the train, the teaching was all interconnected stuff, you know, it was about love. Not just loving other people. But being love, giving that love energy out on a daily basis, loving yourself, because that’s important, too. A lot of people are good with the loving others, and they’re not so good at loving themselves.

RICK: Can they really be good at loving others? If you don’t love yourself? I mean,

NANCY: well, they think they can. They think they can. And I think to some extent, people can feel maybe kindness or compassion toward other people, without loving themselves. But I think that deep love is probably not accessible, until you really fully embrace who you are, and love yourself. And that was hard for me, you know, it was, I went into this experience, not really liking myself very much. So I mean, that was directed at me, I understood what people meant, like, I just didn’t have that. That view of me as a worthwhile person. So there’s, you know, that was another one. A big one was, you know, loving this the earth. Now, even even if this is some kind of a simulated reality, or a dreamlike state, we still have to take care of this place that we’re in, whatever this is, and, and that was a big part two of what, what I was taught was not that I wasn’t loving the earth, or loving the planet, or whatever, but, but one of those messages was really for us as a society as a humanity. To learn how to get back to that place where we saw the earth as a part of us, we took care of the earth as if it was us. So that was a big deal for me,

RICK: you know, some people misinterpret Vedanta to say that, you know, the world is an illusion, and we shouldn’t really take it very seriously. But really traditional Vedanta, they have a term called Java Harka, which means transactional reality. And it refers to the world that we live in, which, you know, is not ultimately real, but it’s relatively real. And it needs to be dealt with, seriously, on its own level, you know, render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s. So, you know, I think it’s a misinterpretation of some of these spiritual teachings to just sort of brush off, you know, human concerns and earthly concerns as being a losery. And, you know, it’s kind of a spiritual bypassing kind of thing. Sometimes. Yeah, I

NANCY: would agree with that. I like that. I like that term transactional reality. I think that really, that hits home. You know, if you’re, if you’re on, you know, like, if, say, for example, you get on an air airline flight from general Phoenix to New York City. What are you going to do? Everybody’s going to trash the place while they’re on the airplane? Because they know they’re going to get off in a couple of hours. Like, no, that’s not what you do

RICK: these days. Some people actually do that. But I know like, that’s still

NANCY: breaks my heart but but that’s how I look at it like it doesn’t, it doesn’t matter what this what this reality is, ultimately, we’re in it now. And we’re in it for a kind of a long time. And our kids are going to be in it and our grandkids. So let’s, you know, let’s take care of it. Let’s see it for what it is. It’s a it’s a part of us. We’re all one. It’s not separate from us. We’re a part of it.

RICK: Also, I think it’s not an accident or a fallen state or something that we’re here. It’s it’s a school, it’s a learning. It’s a learning opportunity, and actually a precious one that it’s people might want to watch a movie I did a couple of weeks ago with a guy named Christian Sundberg. I won’t go into a great detail but we we did in that interview. But how it’s a rare opportunity to have this human life and there’s tremendous potential of what one can actually achieve in one spiritual evolution. And so, you know, take take advantage of it.

NANCY: Yep. Yeah, it is. It’s an awesome opportunity. Yeah, so that’s, you know, those were the first three ones, I’m going to open up my book as well, I’ll pull them out in the order that that I wrote them on wrote him in here on you know, another one in a lot of these lessons or teachings were just they’re woven through my whole experience. So it’s not like Okay, now we’re going to learn about the Earth. Now we’re going to learn about love, you know, it was just all woven together. And and I pulled them out as separate topics just to make it easier for people to understand in a book form. But so when I talk about this stuff, realize that that these concepts were just littered through or woven through the entire experience. And I’m doing my best here to kind of pull each one out as an individual lesson.

RICK: Yeah. And I got the impression that when you’re having your nd it wasn’t like the guide was speaking English to you or something. It was more of a psychic transmission or just a nonverbal, heart to heart or soul, the soul resonant resonance or something that was right, you know? Yeah.

NANCY: Yeah, that’s a good point. It was a little bit amusing. There were times when I just couldn’t understand that that communication you just talked about it was I call it now it was like beyond telepathic, it wasn’t telepathic. It was, it was soul to soul. It was it was concepts and vision, visuals and feelings and ideas from who knows when and who knows who all coming together, almost like into my heart region. That’s kind of where it felt like it was coming into it. Sometimes that information was coming in so quickly, that I couldn’t process it. It was just overwhelming. And, and I sometimes I stumbled sometimes I took a step back. And so my teacher said, Okay, well, I’ll just tell you, so then she tried to vocalize it in English. And it was just like, I can’t believe I have to do this, I could just see her like, like, Oh, but I will. So um, so it was that we had a little bit of an eye, we kind of had a joking relationship, we vary. It was very fun and very, very friendly. Like we known each other for a very long time. And we could joke around, but but she would get frustrated sometimes. And like sometimes we just like cross your arms and frustration like oh my god, I can’t believe that I have to tell you this, but but that’s the way it happened. And and there were times when I could hear or feel communication coming from someone else other than her. Like she was a filter or a funnel for other voices that were there. And I asked her about that. I said, Well, I only see you. Why am I getting the feeling that there are other people here in the background? And she said, Well, there are, you know, there’s, I don’t know, it was like 1000 or something, it was a lot. Wow. And, and they and they want to talk to you. But because I was in an in between state I wasn’t fully dead. And I wasn’t really alive. I couldn’t handle that level of communication I could barely handle handle the one on one with her. So she acted as kind of a filter or the relay for a lot of that so that I wouldn’t be completely blasted by it.

RICK: I sometimes get the feeling that someone having an NDA like yours is a kind of a special event on the other side, like it doesn’t happen every day, that you’re going to have somebody like that, that you’re going to be who’s going to go back. And so they kind of like say, oh boy, we have this opportunity to kind of prime this representative of higher knowledge and let’s imbue her with as much wisdom as we can in the short space and you know, before she goes back and so that’s the idea that came to mind when you spoke of this possibly 1000 other beings and she’s just the representative or the conduit for them.

NANCY: Yeah, that’s an interesting way to look at I hadn’t thought of that but it makes a lot of sense. Yeah. But let’s give let’s give her as much as she can handle.

RICK: Because I really do think and you I’m sure you would agree with me that Whoever they are, whatever they are, they they really have our best interests in mind. And they it must be a little frustrating if they’re if they can experience frustration to see all the trials and tribulations we go through when they know that it can be so much better. And the veil that shrouds us when we’re born can be so thick. And, and then when we have an experience like you had and the veil is gone, temporarily, oh, yeah, this is my true home. But then boom, the veil can come back again. So an opportunity to catch someone when the veil has lifted and send them back with some higher knowledge must be kind of special.

NANCY: Yeah, well, and I had the I was lucky. Well, maybe not lucky. Maybe that was the whole maybe it was planned this way. But I was lucky in that I remembered everything. Yeah. Um, you know, I remember the accident, all of the accident, I remembered all of this. And that was

RICK: you were there after you came back.

NANCY: After I came back, right, right. Yeah, I remembered all of it. And it was a lot I first tried to block some of it out because it was just too crazy and weird, like, when I when I came back into my body, but then I just let it roll. And when I let it roll, I wrote it down. And it was it was just all there. You know, and I we can talk about that later. But But I did tell people right away when it happened and then got real detailed with it. So it was all right there when I came back. And I did what I didn’t know this at the time, but Eben Alexander when he had after he had his and woke up from it. The first thing he asked for was a notebook and a pen or a pencil so that he could start writing stuff down. And I did the same thing. And I’m like, I asked one of my friends, can you please bring me a sketchbook and, and some pencils or something so that I can start writing this stuff down and drawing sketches. So he did and it was hard at first because I was still I had a hard time, you know, lifting my arm enough to write but I did the best I could and wrote it all down. Right as soon as I could. So I have all that which is awesome. I came back with, with all those memories, just right there, which I shouldn’t have had because I was under anesthesia. And I they had given me an amnesia drug to boot while I was in surgery, so I shouldn’t have remembered anything. So anyway, that’s that’s another story. But But yeah, I came back with all that information and, and did as best as I could put it all in a book, mostly for myself, because I knew I was gonna have to reread this stuff every once in a while.

RICK: A lot of other people too.

NANCY: It does, you know, it helps me I’ve always liked these

RICK: nd books. I’ve been reading them for several decades, just even though I’ve never had one and don’t particularly want to have one. Because but um, you know, it just it kind of thing that thins that veil that I was just talking about, you just get a visceral sense that this deeper reality is not that far away. And you know, and that this life is not so short as you might think that there’s a much kind of more long term reality to our existence and all that stuff. It’s it’s handy to have that perspective as we go through life.

NANCY: Yeah, that we’re more eternal than we give ourselves credit for that we’re more powerful than we think. Even in this life, even as human beings, we’re more powerful, the biggest thing that gets in the way of that is our own thoughts and beliefs. You know, that’s, that was another one. And I’ve talked about, you know, how we’re all connected and not just connected to each other as humans. This is a hard one for a lot of Westerners to really understand but, but connected to other what we call other animals, the rocks, the trees, the landscape, the air, everything is all part of this spiritual consciousness, all of it. You know, whenever I give it, I’ve given talks in the Midwest and Midwestern us and have had people from the SU nations in my audience, and then afterwards, we’ll compare notes. And it’s like, well, that’s what they’ve been taught, you know, for many, many, many, many generations. Yeah. And it’s just part of their culture. And it’s part of the culture of a lot of indigenous people. It’s something that we’ve forgotten for a lot of, you know, Western, Caucasian, European centric people that we are connected to everything around us. Yeah.

RICK: Interesting that, you know, we Europeans came barging over here and regarded them as heathens and tried to convert them to our way of thinking and all and then didn’t even recognize the wisdom that they had.

NANCY: Yeah, yeah. It’s a shame. It really, it’s, it’s one of those heartbreaking things for me.

RICK: Yeah. Here’s a comment from someone that pertains to something you’re talking about a few minutes ago. This is from Halina in Montreal, she says, Remember, Paramahansa Yogananda said, if one is following the spiritual path, even if there’s past karma, creating an event, which is supposed to happen, the impact or outcome would be annihilated to a minimum, instead of serious injuries. Only a scratch.

NANCY: Yeah, back to that same point. Yeah. Now, I wish I would have read all that before.

RICK: As well and wisely put, you know,

NANCY: we learn it in different ways, right?

RICK: We do. And, you know, if you hadn’t had, well, we’ve already gone through that. But you’ve you’ve been given a certain assignment. And here it is.

NANCY: Yeah, here I am. Mostly, you know, it’s mostly just being the main message for me was to come back here and get your life back on track and live a really good life, learn how to live a good life, learn how to be love, learn how to, you know, show others love, show yourself, love, be compassionate, you know, while at the same time not being a doormat, just how to do all of this stuff. If if all I did was spend the rest of my life putting into practice with, you know, in this one book, then that, for me, is a life well lived. It’s hard because it’s, uh, when I came back, it really did. It bothered some of my friends and family, and I lost friends because of the snake. They just couldn’t follow along.

RICK: Because you were saying this woowoo stuff him in that? Yeah.

NANCY: I went over to the woowoo side of the house. But the funky thing is that now that I’ve been, it’s been seven and a half years, had a lot of time to think especially the last year and a half with, you know, COVID It’s not that it really there shouldn’t be this separation or this gulf that we have between the spiritual people and the scientific people, there shouldn’t be this gulf that we have right now. And, and I know that viscerally that should not be there. And I think it’s healing, you know, if there wasn’t a golf up until, you know, probably the, maybe the end of the Renaissance or even into the enlightenment, but at least in the Western, in the Western world, now that golf never really existed, I’m guessing in India, and maybe not even in China and other parts of the world. But what I’m talking about, like the, you know, the European cultures, there was that gulf between, you know, proper science and people who believed in a spiritual view. And never the twain shall meet Well, to me, that needs to heal, that absolutely needs to heal. There’s a lot of things that need to heal on this planet. But that’s definitely one of them that, that I feel very strongly because I had been in that camp on the science side before. So I felt that very strongly, especially in the last couple of years, just thinking about all the stuff that I learned it isn’t there’s nothing in it, that precludes science also having an impact in this world. I mean, they’re, they’re not they don’t cancel each other out. They can actually enhance each other least that’s how I and some other people are thinking but

RICK: Oh, absolutely. I’ll send you a link later of a talk I gave on this about six, seven years ago. But um, I feel like spirituality, explores realms that science should be interested in if science really wants to understand how the universe works, but doesn’t have the tools to explore. And, you know, science on the other hand, has offers a an empirical, rigorous way of thinking methodical way of thinking that can prevent that can save spiritual people from getting lost in imaginative fanciful realms that are not what they’re actually looking for. So I think that a, you know, a marriage of a scientific way of thinking with deep spirituality can enrich both But perhaps 50 100 200 years from now, it’ll be sort of, we’ll look back and think why did we ever think of them as separate? We really just have this one unified approach to gaining knowledge, which includes both subjective and objective technologies. Yeah,

NANCY: I like that. Yeah. And that’s absolutely how I see it to your, you’re better at explaining that than I would have been.

RICK: I’ve been pondering it myself for a while, I’ll send you a link to that document. And

NANCY: so yeah, we can go into some of these little I mean, we

RICK: can share anything that comes to mind. Yeah,

NANCY: yeah. And another another one that was really strong for me was let’s just say, what’s coming to me right now is intuitive ability. So listening to your heart listening to that, that intuitive sense that we all have. And I really do believe that we all have it. But some of us listen to it, and others don’t. And I’ve had, like, we’ve alluded to before, I’ve had that all my life, I just didn’t want to listen to it.

RICK: And if we ignore it, we tend to numb it. And if we listen to it, we tend to enhance it.

NANCY: Right? Yep. Yep. I’ve I saw that myself. You know, some of those. We talked a little bit earlier about, there were a couple of incidents where earlier on in my life, I had stuff that happened that I just shunted aside, because they didn’t fit into my worldview at the time, and I didn’t want to deal with them. One of them was, well, actually, two, two happened around during the last year of my father’s life, he was he had been dealing with cancer for like seven years before he finally passed away. And a buddy about a year before he died. I had this really bizarre incidents. And this was back when I was still an atheist. And I was meditating. Because, you know, you can meditate and be an atheist, as long as you tell yourself, it’s you’re just, you know, helping your brain think better, right? That’s what I was telling myself. So I would meditate pretty much every day. And it did help with, you know, stress and anxiety and that kind of thing. So I did it. But there was, I went out to visit him. And he and my mom, they lived about a six hour drive away from me. And so I went to visit them for a long weekend. In November, about a year before he was he finally passed away. And he was a he was a big outdoors guy, he loved to go fishing, he loved to go hunting, even if he never got anything. He just liked to be out there. So he would like he always wanted to be outdoors. And so he was bound and determined. You know, he’s pretty frail at this point. The cancers, you know, beaten him pretty hard. He wanted to go deer hunting. I’m like, What are you nuts? You’re crazy. You know, you can barely walk. And I just, I said, No, if you want to go, I will take you and I will walk out there with you. And I’ll make sure you’re safe. Because I wanted him to just be out there out in the woods experiencing just being out there in the woods. And I wanted him to be safe. So I was going to go out with them. On a Saturday morning when I got there Friday afternoon, and got settled in did a little quick meditation. And while I was meditating, something really weird happened. And I normally didn’t have weird things happen during my meditation. But this was bizarre. I experienced, like, memories of my dad from the standpoint of him as a young kid from somebody named Sidney, who was a friend of his, and they’re both in their teens. And this vision was of the two of them with a couple of their other buddies out there. We’re going to go deer hunting, and they were gathered together. You know, around this campfire they had had like a camp up in the north woods. Their parents had this camp where they would just go out there and hang out and go hunting and fishing. So they were up there. And I was seeing this whole thing happened from the standpoint of this young boy named or a young man named Sidney. And they had this back and forth conversation. And I didn’t know I mean I didn’t know a Sydney I’d never heard of my dad’s friends. I knew a couple of his friends from him when he was a kid, but certainly not a Sydney and and then there was a flash from there to Sydney was in Korea. He had been drafted that drafted he had volunteered and gotten tour duty over in the Korean War, and was killed in action in Korea. And I saw the whole I mean, I was there experiencing it, like, right there with him. And I came out at some point I had no I thought maybe I was making it up. That was the first stamp that I’ve never heard of this, Sydney. What is all that? So next morning, my dad and I go out to the woods, get out of the truck. And I knew I couldn’t talk about this in front of my mom, it just, she would have freaked out. So I’m, I said, you know, there’s something really weird that happened to me last night, I really need to just ask you about this. And he said, okay, because I cuz I knew he had some bizarre beliefs that he wouldn’t talk about a lot. But I thought maybe he’d be open to listening. So I said, Did you ever know a kid named Sydney?

NANCY: And he just like did this shocking look, he said, How do you know about Sydney? And I said, Well, I think he came to me yesterday when I was meditating. And he said, he used to call you, Willie. Because my dad’s name was Bill. Um, and he and I could just see the blood dripping out of his face. Wow. And he said, I’ve never told anybody about Sidney, how did you know about him? I suppose he came to me yesterday. I said, and so then I relayed the conversation that they had had over this campfire at their camp, you know, and they were going deer hunting. He just was like a ghost. He was just so wide. His eyes were like saucers. And, and I said, Well, I think he just wanted me to let you know that he was okay. You know, he wanted to say that he he also he had actually told me tell Willie, my dad tell Willie, that I’m sorry that I wasn’t able to get back from Korea. Oh, he died in Korea. Yeah, he died in a firefight in Korea. And he felt apparently he felt bad about that. Because they were best friends. Yeah. But no, he never told my mom about Sydney. He never told anybody else. So the fact that I knew about this kid was

RICK: crazy. And this happened before your accident?

NANCY: Yeah, this happened. Oh, boy. I was only 34. So 12 years before my accident.

RICK: So yeah, you really had something going on? Yeah, you were destined for some kind of spiritual breakthrough.

NANCY: So I Yeah, and I had that happen. And then I thought I didn’t know what to do with that. And I didn’t know who to ask. You know, my, my husband at the time wouldn’t have he was an atheist too. And it just would not have been something I could talk to him about. And so my dad and I just shared that. And I said, I don’t know what to make of that. But he came to me. And he said, He’s okay, he’s sorry. I don’t know what to do with it. And so I just dropped it. i It’s not that I forgot about it. I just didn’t know what to do with it. So I just set it aside and let it go. I was just so consumed with, you know, where my dad was, and his illness that I didn’t have much of a emotional space to really think about the implications of of stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. And then you know, that and then the morning that he died, again, I was I was six hours away, at my home, and kind of knew that it was coming at some point soon. But I woke up at four in the morning, and I saw him standing at the foot of my bed. And I just saw him kind of disappear, like disappear behind a curtain almost. It was like he was walking behind a curtain and then was gone. And then I’m like, Oh, that was him. He just died. And then just as I said that to myself, the phone rang. And it was my brother calling us and saying dad just died. So when I went over there, it took us a while obviously to get over there. But when I walked in the front door, and this was again, it was one of those things that was just like challenging my view of the material world I could hear music and it wasn’t coming from the house. Nobody else could hear it either. Which so I was thinking, Well, I must be hallucinating. But it was this ethereal, beautiful choral music that was just everywhere it was, it was joyful. It was so welcoming and joy filled and peaceful. And I heard it for about, I don’t know, 20 minutes, half an hour, and then it kind of faded. But but that I heard that again, I heard that again, when I died. And I experienced that music again,

RICK: during during your nd Yeah.

NANCY: And it was explained that that wasn’t really music, as we hear music, it was so hard to sometimes put into words, it was like soul, soul, energy, love energy that was coming from us. It was like the it was a almost a, an embodiment of gratitude and love that we could hear. But that was coming from each individual soul that was a part of this whole. And it was just this beautiful, like almost circuit, that circular but there was a given take chorus of this love and gratitude from all of us, throughout the universe to the universe. And then back, you know, from the universe to us. It was this. It was a it was the sound of our energy of interconnectedness, I guess. But what but we experience it oftentimes as a sound as a chorus. Lot of people hear that I didn’t know what it was until I died myself and heard it again. And what I remember that it’s interesting when my dad died. Yeah,

RICK: there’s there’s a phrase, self interacting dynamics of consciousness. You know, we talked, we talked earlier about how everything is consciousness, and but there’s all this sort of, if we think of consciousness as an ocean, then there’s all these currents that catches the ocean is in motion. They’re all these currents interacting, flowing this way. And that and somehow, what you just said, reminded me of that phrase. Yeah, there’s, oh, go ahead. No, it’s okay. Go ahead. Oh, I was just gonna say there’s also a verse in the Bhagavad Gita, which in which Lord Krishna, who is supposed to be God says, curving back on myself, I create again and again. So there’s this sort of self referential thing where, you know, consciousness interacts with itself, and that gives rise to all the diversification of the universe. But anyway, I don’t know how I got that from what you said, but it reminded me of it cuz you’re mentioning that there’s a sort of, you know, interactive flow between all the different levels of creation or something that you interpreted it as music.

NANCY: Yeah. Yeah. That’s how I think that’s how our, you know, this, the only way that we can process it if we’re still kind of in that human state?

RICK: Yeah, we have to interpret it in a way that fits our understanding of things.

NANCY: Yeah. So it makes it makes sense that it would come across kind of as a musical musical note, because it is energy it is it is a, it’s a vibratory type energy. Yeah. So it makes sense that it would be experienced as sound. But it’s unearthly. And it’s, it’s, it’s one of those things that I kind of, that’s one of the things that I wish didn’t happen is that I wish I hadn’t heard that. It’s to some level because I can’t listen to music now.

RICK: Because it’s so crude by comparison, or what it is. It is

NANCY: I listened to it maybe for 10 minutes at most once in a while. And I mean, once in a great while, I’ll get the the hankering to listen to something unusual, but it doesn’t last for very long. And and I just it’s it gets to the point after maybe a few minutes where it’s like, human music is like nails on a chalkboard,

RICK: even some beautiful Mozart or Eric Satie, or, you know, some of these.

NANCY: Yep. I live once in a while I can get into listening to some of that. I like on Pandora, they call it spa music or it’s just floating sound in the background. Yeah, that’s okay, as long as it’s soft and melodic. But even after about a half an hour of that I’ve had enough and I just got to turn it off. So that’s the that’s the only thing out of all of this. That I wish had been different. But at the same time, hearing that music was just an earthly, I mean, obviously on earthly, but it was just so beautiful. And to know that that’s, we’re part of that, you know, it’s not just that it was music coming from somewhere else, it was all of us, that’s a part of who each one of us is, we’re contributing to that, that beautiful energy, you know, and the more we go into that space of love, of being aware, like in conscious in our lives, like being in the Now moment, and just being love as much as possible or being grateful or helping other people, every time we do that we’re contributing to that love energy that comes out as to a lot of us as music, it’s, we’re just contributing to that energy flow of that of that love and compassion in the universe. So we’re a part of it, it’s not some separate chorus. We it is part of us, and we can all contribute to that. Some people can actually hear that, that vibration, in deep meditation, I’ve not been able to achieve that state since I’ve gotten back. But some people have been able to do that.

RICK: Yeah, people might want to check my interview with Suzanne striker. She reported having that hearing that kind of stuff all the time, then Harry Alto to perhaps. But it’s interesting, because traditionally, people all talk about it all the different traditions talk about angels singing, you know, celestial choirs, and, you know, playing harps. Oh, that’s. But I think that, you know, that’s probably an interpretation of experiences people had. But I bet you a lot of people throughout history have experienced what you’re referring to. In fact, just to add to it, it said that there is a, you know, and you’ve actually alluded to it, you’ve experienced that there’s a celestial level of life, there’s a really subtle dimension of life, which isn’t commonly experienced by people, but can be even, even in a regular, you know, while they’re alive and functioning, that doesn’t have to be an NDA. And, you know, I’ve spoken with people who have had visual and auditory and other sensory experiences of that field, some of them quite commonly. Because they they’ve refined their capacity to have them those experiences to such a degree, it’s well within the human field of possibilities.

NANCY: Yeah, totally. It totally is. And I can see once in a while I, it’s easier for me sometimes to see that energy than it is to hear it now. There are many times when I’ll be going and it usually happens when I’m out hiking out in the boonies. I’ll be able to see that energy rather than hear it. Oh, yeah. And that’s a lot of you describe

RICK: what you see, is it like glowing? It’s kind of a thing. It’s like

NANCY: a glowing, it’s almost like it’s usually glowing, like diffuse tendrils of energy connecting stuff. Yeah, it isn’t like a big fog. There’s a little bit more cohesiveness to it in that it’s more like, but not like ropes. It’s it’s a diffuse tendrils of energy flowing everywhere and through everything. It’s a little bit it’s a more kind of toned down version of what I experienced during my NDA. Because when you know during my Andy he what I saw, you know, I you saw quotes, like experienced around me as a visual was just like these energy fields, all through everything, so there’d be a tree. But that tree would have multiple layers of energy flowing up and down it in all different colors. And I could interact with that tree and interact with its energy and then the colors would all change. So when I’m here now, I can see that but it’s it’s not that vivid. It’s, it’s usually like one color. So there’s also there’s another photo. I don’t remember how long ago it was taken, but it was it was actually a visualization. I think of radio, radio energy of the early part of the Big Bang where they’re showing. Like, as the stars were forming into galaxies, there are these like tendrils. Yeah, very much like that. at a different scale, it also very much looks like how electrical energy gets transmitted in your brain to call as a thought, not that the brain is causing the thought, but the brain is experiencing the thought. But when they, when they map that, and when they, when they kind of visualize that looks like these little, you know, tendrils of glowing energy. So that’s what this looks like, to me, it’s very much like that.

RICK: That’s really cool. And I think that’s a very genuine experience, I think you’re actually. And it’s, again, within everyone’s capacity to experience if it gets awakened, but you’re actually experiencing the sort of subtler reality of the world, and subtler mechanics of what’s actually going on in the world, then it’s probably easier to see when you’re out in nature than it would be walking down city street or something like that, although even there, you can see stuff like that.

NANCY: I bet. Yeah. But people who are more attuned to it in the city could see it. I grew up in the country. So I’m I don’t, you know, I’m not really as attuned to living in the city as some people are. So cities, make me feel a little bit claustrophobic. And I always feel like I want to protect myself. So I’m able to let go enough when I’m out in nature. But if you’re, you know, for people out there who are more attuned to living in the city, you could probably see it in a city too.

RICK: Yeah. And, you know, we should probably sad that it’s not like a big important thing that people can see this stuff. And you’re really missing out on life, if you can’t. But right. It’s just, it’s just interesting, because it’s, it suggests what some human capacities are, that are not common, but that could be

NANCY: right. And we and we just don’t, our view of our day to day life. Right now, for the most part is pretty limited. Yeah, but it can’t it can be expanded, we can expand on that and experience this reality this life in a more expansive way.

RICK: Yeah, probably everybody’s heard the the notion that maybe we’re only using 5% of our full mental potential or perceptual protect potential and so on. So it’s just a matter of unfolding the full potential. Yeah. Which is not that difficult.

NANCY: It just takes some dedication. Yeah. And persistence.

RICK: There’s, here’s another nice point, among your points that you listed, you’re never alone. And want to dwell on that for a minute.

NANCY: Yeah, that was one thing that I had been struggling with. In the months before my accident. I just had always, maybe even most of my life, I had just felt like I was an alien on this planet. Like I was somehow alone. And I didn’t really ever feel like I fit in. I just didn’t know how to relate to most people. I don’t know maybe that’s maybe that speaks to somebody out there who’s a psychologist or something, I don’t know. But, but I just never felt comfortable. On this planet, even even from the time I was a little kid. And I always and but by that I dealt with it. Okay. For the most part until I was, you know, in those months before my accident, and I was really starting to feel it then. You know, I had my marriage had broken up and I was living alone.

NANCY: And I don’t know, I just I was getting into kind of a funky. I don’t know. Mindset,

NANCY: mindset. Yeah. And, and I just didn’t, I just didn’t feel connected to anyone in anything. And I just felt like I had been abandoned on this planet. Like I was some alien abandoned on this planet. So and one of the one of the things that I was taught during my nd II was just what you said, we’re never alone. And it isn’t just the human contact that I’m talking about. It’s that there is no separation between what we experience as reality here, what we call the physical realm, or what I tend to call the physical realm, and what a lot of people would call the afterlife, or what I call the spiritual realm. It’s not the afterlife, by the way, don’t if you ever around me don’t use that word because that’s like a that’s a button for me. I just don’t I don’t that’s not that’s not the right word. Because it isn’t the afterlife. It’s our life. This is life two, there’s no difference. It’s all connected. There’s no separation. What we are surrounded kind constantly by those in Spirit who are in that spiritual phase, some will never have an incarnation in, in this human form. Never, they may never want to, they may never need to, they may never have the opportunity to, but we can still interact with them, because we’re all part of the same space, the same spirit. Spirituality, the same spiritual energy. So there is no separation. And when I finally, like after I got back and really started thinking about that, that has really allowed me to open up that communication not not that I want to be a medium or anything, but just so that I can continue to get intuitive guidance, so I can continue to access my own intuitive space. But also maintain that connection with those beings who are what I call my spirit friends or my my spirit peeps. They are, they’re always with me. And I know they’re here and doing that as allowed, actually. And it’s I don’t want to get into like ghost stories or anything like that. But it’s allowed my sister who, who died a long time ago, to come visit me every once in a while. Not like we have a conversation or anything. But I know when she’s here, and she just drops in. I think she just checked. She’s my older sister. I think she’s just checking up on me like an older sister does, and wants to see if everything’s okay. And then she you know, and then she’s gone.

RICK: Well, even Willie checked your says Sydney checked in on you? Yeah, yeah,

NANCY: exactly. So we’re connected to all those people, whether they’re physically here with us or not. And just being open to that and in a healthy way, can at least for me, is allowed me to just maintain those, those avenues of communication, and just given them the opportunity to show up every once in a while. And I’ve had, you know, friends of mine who have who have passed away in the last couple of years. One who came in I actually didn’t know that she had passed until she I was in the kitchen one day. And somebody was flipping my light switch on off. And I was the only one in the house. Literally flipping the switch on and off. And I looked over there and saw it go on and off. And I said you actually see the physical switch moving up and yeah, it was going up and down. Wow. That’s spooky the light flickering on and off. Well, at first it wasn’t then I thought well, I wonder I knew my I knew one of my friends was ill was seriously ill. And that’s when I decided I needed to check up and I I checked in with her daughter and she had, she had just passed away. So I’m thinking that’s who it was because this friend of mine was kind of a jokester. She liked to, you know, play practical jokes and fool around a little bit with with people, she was the sweetest person, but she just liked to have fun too. So I think that was her.

RICK: That’s interesting that she could physically flip it up and down, you know, even though she’s just in her spirit body or whatever.

NANCY: Yeah, I was surprised at that. But I think it does happen occasionally. Yeah, I think that was the only time I’ve ever had, you know, a spirit visitor, interact with something physical, you know, there are stories

RICK: of that. And obviously movies have been made about it and everything. Speaking speaking of movies, I mean, we love movies of like, et and close encounters and things like that. And, you know, imagine what big news it would be if aliens landed on the White House lawn, you know, it would be earth shaking. But you know, ironically there is the world is teeming with life that we don’t even know exists because it’s subtle, and we don’t perceive it. And the vast majority of people don’t realize it’s even there. So it’s it’s kind of funny in a way that there’s all this stuff going on. And we’re just gonna waltz through our lives, oblivious to it.

NANCY: Kind of like you know, I had a we had horses when I was growing up, and we once in a while, they’d have to have blinders on when they wrote when we wrote them in. It’s like, most of us go through life like that blinders on, and we’re focused down on what we can see right in front of us. Yeah. And that’s how I was it’s not that it’s you know, that’s not a a day against anybody really, it’s just how we tend to be Yeah, and I certainly there

RICK: and maybe it’s how we need to be in order to live life. Yeah, I mean, like you said, you it was almost more than you can handle. They were giving you so much information. Like, Oh, so cool it. So I think, in fact, with psychedelics, they say that people who study psychedelics and talk about them a lot, say the brain is kind of like a filter, which actually limits the amount of experience we can have in psychedelic seem to, you know, thin, or, you know, shut off the filter for a while. So we get flooded, but we couldn’t function that way or all the time. But I would say that spiritual development cultures, the ability to be more open and all inclusive and perceptive in a natural way, which can be stabilized so that you can drive a car and do whatever you need to do well yet, in a very perceptive open condition.

NANCY: Yeah, yeah, that’s the to me, that’s the the good balance to achieve is expanding your awareness just a bit, but yet still remaining grounded enough to to function and do what you need to do here and learn what you need to learn. Because you’re here, we’re all here for a reason. At least, that’s the way that I look at it. And, and I think, yeah, it is, I know, there’s a I have a friend who sometimes I think she thinks sees it a blessing, or sometimes it’s a curse, but her filters are kind of gone. They always have been, she was born with this different set of abilities. Like she’s, you know, she has a lot of memories of her other in her belief system, there are other lives. So she came in with like these tons and tons and tons of other memories in her life. And it’s hard for her sometimes to kind of focus in on the on the Now moment, I think and get done what needs to get done, because there’s all this other stuff that she now has to just consciously set aside, and, and focus in on what’s going on right now.

RICK: Yeah, I interviewed a guy named Jim Tucker a couple of months ago, who studies children who remember past lives, and sometimes in incredibly vivid detail, you know, naming the name of the battleship that their plane took off from and the names of the buddies who are with them on the battleship and all that gets, you know, verified, and so on. But we had a quite a bit of a discussion about how, you know, we do need to sort of have that turn off at a certain point in life in order to live this life.

NANCY: Yeah, cuz you can get, you can get cut and get wrapped up in that stuff. And I’ve never, you know, since this happened, I’ve never really been all that interested in in, you know, trying to figure out past lives, or I call them other lives, because past, present and future doesn’t really hold any meaning. But, but those other if I’ve experienced other lives, which I think I have, unless they have a direct bearing on what I need to do and learn now I don’t really, it doesn’t really make any difference to me. I don’t, I don’t really care to dive into that stuff.

RICK: Right. I had a pet I had a spiritual teacher, he used to say the past is always a lesser developed state. And there’s really not a lot of point in trying to figure out what your past lives were and all that.

NANCY: No, I yeah, I would agree with parts of that. Anyway.

RICK: A question came in from Halina again in Montreal, who asked the question earlier, she’s wondering, could you describe the pitch of the music, we’re talking about that music was at very high frequency. She said, I did hear 1000s of angels saying at an extremely high pitch when my mom passed away on the third day, I guess she means the third day after a mom passed away. I knew her soul had entered heaven at that point.

NANCY: Yeah, yeah, I think it was more high pitched. A higher frequency, although there were it was more complex than just, you know, a higher pitch. The complexity is really difficult. I’m not a musician, anyway. But it was a lot more complex than that. Although I would say that I would agree that it tended to be more on the high pitch side of, of the sound, what we would call the sound spectrum. So I think I think what you heard was kind of the same thing that I heard, you know, that’s fairly common. It’s called a shared death experience. Where people can somehow have experiences surrounding the death of a loved one, it doesn’t have to be right when the loved one dies. It can be days afterward. So you know, humans always have to have names for stuff and that’s the name that we’ve chosen to, to put on all that but yeah, so and in fact, that my friend who flipped the light switch on and off that would have been, I guess, a shared death experience too, according to the definition, but I just say She visited me before she moved on. So that’s a great that’s a great thing to experience though. It’s beautiful. When When you can hear that Halina and it’s, it can be life altering for people just to hear that. So it’s to me, that’s a blessing. So I’m glad you shared that. Thank you.

RICK: Great prep. So um, before we run out of time, you want to say a little bit about gratitude.

NANCY: Yeah. So gratitude is again, it’s another form of energy. But it’s just, it’s a form of love. Really, it’s, it’s a, it’s an energy of loving appreciation. I remember that when I was, you know, in that spiritual place, whatever you want to call it. The the teaching was really about that. We’re sort of misunderstanding what gratitude is. It’s it’s, it’s love, pure and simple. Gratitude, in its highest form, is love. It’s compassion. It’s appreciation all that’s all that’s part of love. But in some teachings now, in the modern era, there are some people out there who are teaching people, how do you try to use that? Would you want to call lip service gratitude, to try to, like somehow trick the universe into giving them stuff. And to use gratitude as a tool or as a manipulative tool, I should say, a manipulative tool. If that’s defeating the purpose, it’s it’s not. It’s not what gratitude is, it’s not the highest form of, of that concept of, of love. So, you know, I was being encouraged to just be grateful to as a form of love and appreciation, that’s it, just don’t try to use it for anything, don’t try to manipulate someone with it, or try to manipulate the universe with it, it’s just love and to share that from your heart. Because that is again, it puts you gratitude, it puts you into that heart space faster than almost anything else. If you if you’re really needing a like a quick way to get into the present. And to get into a really positive vibe, I guess for some people call it that, but a positive mindset or a positive spiritual state, go through a gratitude exercise, you know, really dive into five things in your life that you’re grateful for right now. And just really consider them not just, you know, off the top of your head and just let them go. Like, really feel it. Get into the feeling of that, and it couldn’t be, you know, being super grateful for having a house that, you know, you’re living in having food on the table, having a loving family around you. Being like, this is the one I wake up with, still every morning, every morning, I am so grateful every morning, that I can walk because it was not looking good for a while there. So every morning, before I even get up out of bed, I just go into that space of deep gratitude for being able to get up and walk around. And that I don’t have a lot of physical, leftover challenges for my accident because that’s surprising to me still, like, you know, no pain really and, and so just be grateful for what you do have because that will put you into what I call that state of present moment awareness and that state of love. And that’s, that’s all it is. It’s just love.

RICK: Speaking of love and gratitude, I guess another quality that’s somewhat related to those who’d be forgiveness and Catherine from San Jose, Costa Rica was wondering whether that driver faced any consequences for what she did, or did she ever even apologize to you?

NANCY: Actually, she did not apologize. Um, not that I ever asked for it. She she’d had a history. She was in her. I think she was 29. She had had his bad history with vehicles like she was constantly in accidents and injuring other drivers. I think I want to say that she had like 30 days. I may I may be getting this wrong. She had a short time in jail. And then She had like six months probation. As far as like, you know, you know, our justice systems go. But, but I learned very quickly that I had to let go of that. And I had to just not that I was, you know, unnecessarily grateful to her for hitting me. But I had to let go of any negativity that I was carrying around toward her, because she did what she did, I couldn’t change it, I did the best I could to avoid the accident, I know that in my heart. And she was going to, and I know, she’s probably, at least for a while, probably lived with it. Um, I’m guessing. But that’s, that was up to her to live with. So I knew I had to just release myself from that attachment to feeling any bad feelings toward her. So if you want to call that forgiveness, that’s what I would call forgiveness is just disconnecting myself from any of those negative feelings. Because I couldn’t change anything. In a way, you know, she helped me. She didn’t know it. But she helped me become more aware and awake in my life.

RICK: Sometimes the people who talk about planning our life before we are born, you know, say that we actually work out arrangements with people like, Oh, I really need to experience being abused by an alcoholic or something, would you be that person, please? And, and the guy says, I don’t really want to do that. But please, you know, alright, I love you so much. I’ll be the alcoholic. And I’ll come in. And I don’t know if it really works that way. But you hear people offer those kinds of explanations. So maybe you had some pre life arrangement with this woman?

NANCY: I don’t? I don’t think so. Yeah, I don’t think so I think the way that I’ve seen it, and kind of come to understand, at least at least for this one instance, instance, now that the prearranged stuff may happen, I’m not going to discount that. But for this instance, for me, I think we were both guided to be at that place by our own teachers, or own spiritual teachers, she had a lot of learning that she needed to do. And so did I in different ways. And, you know, coming together, excuse me, in that way, gave us both opportunities. So, you know, what I was hoped were hopeful for is that it would help her kind of get her life back on track.

RICK: I suppose in the big picture, everything everybody experiences helps them. You know, it’s either it’s either the school of hard knocks, or maybe it’s a pleasant thing. But I think ultimately, there’s an evolutionary agenda to everything that happens.

NANCY: Yeah, I think so. And I hope that, you know, I hope that she took the opportunity, as a result of this, to kind of examine where she was in her life and change some stuff, because it was, I mean, I could tell just by talking to, I did talk to her attorney for a little while. And then I talked to the police officers who worked with her a little bit after, after the accident. And I and I, and I know she was in a bad space. So my hope always was that she was able to do something with this positive with her life and to take an opportunity to sit back and say, You know what, I think I need to do something different here. And then make some changes, because that was the opportunity. Yeah, I hope so presented to her. Yeah.

RICK: We received a nice comment from Jeannie sparks in California. She said, just want to say thank you and that I needed to hear this.

NANCY: Oh, you’re welcome, Jeannie. Thanks for listening in today.

RICK: Yeah. And thanks to everybody for listening in. We’ve had a nice crowd on today, like 325 people or so at the moment. Awesome. Yeah. And thanks so much to to you, Nancy. I’ve really, really enjoyed this. I was feeling a little sleepy this afternoon. I thought I was thinking oh, I hope I’m up for doing a good job with this interview. But you kind of woke me right up.

NANCY: Well, thank you. It’s been fun. It’s been a great it’s been a great two hours. I can’t believe it’s been two hours already.

RICK: I know. It’s awesome. What was it Groucho Marx said he said, time flies like an arrow fruit flies like a banana I have a very big repertoire of jokes, but that’s one of them. That’s for sure. I have about three

NANCY: three more than I have.

RICK: Anyway, thanks a lot. And thanks to those who’ve been listening or watching it next week. Actually, it’ll be next Tuesday because our schedules a little weird. I’ll be interviewing Lynn twist and Lynn Lynn has written a book called The soul of money, which is not about what you might think when you first hear the word money. Then she’s a remarkable person. I saw her speak at the sand conference many years ago. She’s She’s really a force of nature. She’s also involved in something called the Pachamama Alliance, which has to do with indigenous tribes in South America and saving the environment and all that. So that’ll be next week. So thanks again. Nancy has been great spending time with you and we’ll be in touch.

NANCY: Thank you. I really loved every minute of it. Thank you so much.

RICK: Me too. And thanks to those of you listening or watching and we’ll see you next time.