Jim Tolles Transcript

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Jim Tolles Interview

Rick Archer: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer. Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of interviews with spiritually Awakening people. There have been over 370 of them by now. So if this is new to you, please go to batgap.com Bat gap. And check out the past interviews menu where you’ll find them all organized and categorized in various ways. This program is made possible by the support of appreciative viewers and listeners. So if you appreciate it and feel like supporting it to whatever degree there’s a Donate button on the site. My guest today is Jim tolls. Jim is a spiritual teacher who helps people to grow, heal and embrace their spiritual paths. Jim had a spiritual awakening in August of 2007, which we’ll be talking about. And it’s been through an inner roller coaster ride of healing and spiritual growth, obviously reading what he sent me to read, dropping away issues as he has moved more deeply into peace and love. The greatest of the shifts came in the fourth, fifth and sixth years after awakening and truly consumed his life. During those times, the intensity of the energy has since subsided into a more relaxed inner flow. Jim continues to grow and be guided by the divine flow while also relaxing into the beautiful oneness and perfection of each moment. Jim teaches his students that we all have our truth and love within us by pointing students toward their innate Divine oneness. He offers tools to help people cut away their lies and misconceptions so that they can be more firmly rooted in truth and love. He works with students on an individual basis via Skype, as well as offering free online talks via live streaming on YouTube. So welcome, Jim.

Jim Tolles: Thank you for having me, Rick.

Rick Archer: Did it ever occur to you that if you dropped the s and effected a German accent, you could pass yourself off as Eckhart’s brother and be much more successful?

Jim Tolles: No, but be kind of a funny experiment, I suppose.

Rick Archer: Yeah. So I read a bunch of articles that you had written, and I. And I listen to several hours of your recordings. And there are several things that I didn’t hear that I usually hear when I do that with people. So I’m going to ask you those things. The first is, who was your teacher, or teachers, who were they?

Jim Tolles: I really didn’t have a teacher, I’ve always been very intuitive. And there’s always been kind of this inner interest in spirituality. So while I’ve learned to like, pull from a lot of different traditions, grew up with Christianity and learned about Buddhism. And I’ve connected with different teachers at different times. I’ve read Eckhart Tolle A’s work, I’ve read some Adyashanti, a lot of those different things, there’s just a part and they just kind of kept finding those little pieces. And then kind of taking me on to the next step. So I never really found a need to have a long term teacher, I connected with sakshi, for a little while through emails and things like that. And then you know, things kind of concluded, I just kept following this inner flow. And that’s really kind of how I approach the spiritual path when I’m connecting with my students is to help them find that innate wisdom. Obviously, as a spiritual teacher, I find some value in, you know, that vocation, but ultimately, everyone really does have the truth within them. And so to me, it’s a great thing when I can help a student get to the point where they don’t need me, or I become kind of obsolete because I can feel whatever they need, and the whole world starts to become their teacher.

Rick Archer: Yeah, a lot of teachers do say that, you know, I want to get to the point where you don’t need me. Did you do any practices, any kind of meditation or yoga or any other sorts of things on a regular basis?

Jim Tolles: No, I really didn’t. They’re kind of three pieces that I really look at is that finally got me kind of moving in October of 2006. Because I was pretty well stuck. But if you talk to me at the time, I wouldn’t have thought that I was stuck. You know, that’s the nature of ignorance. And that’s such a huge hurdle to overcome. And so the three things really where I started to have somebody that I could talk to about spirituality and those types of things outside of my family, which is where you know, there were some discussions but not a lot. I was actually following my heart, I was trying to get into a creative writing degree for a masters, which I ultimately didn’t get into, which was ultimately, you know, really good that I didn’t get into those programs that I applied to. But I find that it was a really important actualization a step of action, you know, from my heart to do something to try and move me in a certain way. And that’s actually when I first started listening to Eckhart Tolle CDs in earnest. Now, I actually listened to him a little bit, several years ago. And I’m like, Well, this makes sense to me. And I put him down, right, it didn’t resonate, I wasn’t open enough to it. And so I feel like those three kind of forces kind of started moving me a little bit. And then I kind of got to that point. And this, I definitely credit to the beautiful work of hacker toys, where I’m sitting in the office, and I’m angry about something, you know, it’s just ridiculous, whatever it was, I would have been angry about. And I realized that nobody talked to me that day, nobody done anything to me that day. And it was just me making myself miserable. And so this is where I really start to work on myself, I say, Well, this is a good job on it. What Why am I upset? What is the problem here? And I start to kind of work on myself. And I kind of starts a little bit of a flow to moving into issues and to, to self discovery. And so that’s, that’s all before 2007, August, when I have my week, what was

Rick Archer: your job? Just out of curiosity,

Jim Tolles: I was a managing editor. So it was paper magazine or something. It was an internet company. And so yeah, I mean, I was very fortunate. I’ve always loved writing, I see that as a big important piece, it’s kind of been a saving grace to keep me close enough to my heart, even as I was very shut down for a lot of life. And so managing editor was one of the ways where I got to do that.

Rick Archer: You’re a good writer, read a lot of your blog posts. Although you need a copy editor, I cut typos. So, okay, so you had a spiritual awakening in 2007? What, how would you characterize it? I mean, you know, we could perhaps talk about this a little bit, because people talk about awakening, as if everyone understands it in the same way and is, you know, saying the same thing, but I don’t think there are, there’s all kinds of things that people actually allude to as awakening. So what did you experience?

Jim Tolles: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, just stepping back, you know, just define my terms, and people can accept them or not, it’s up to you. What I see as all of us that are interested in spirituality being on as the conscious path that’s in our everyday life, becoming more aware of ourselves and letting go of attachments, right, so there’s kind of a spectrum of movement on that. And sometimes it’s how people use awakening, it’s not how I’m using awakening. But to me, that’s where we ultimately all go, if we really embrace spiritual path is to get to know ourselves better to let go of pain, to open our hearts to be clear, to be connected. With awakening to me, that’s like that space of oneness, it’s always there. And that spiritual waking, the way I term it is just kind of this, noticing what’s already there. And then something in the human self kind of becomes alive, energized and starts to move on its own. So are typically you’re going to hear me talk about in a sense of movement, that it keeps moving. And it’s not necessarily one experiential state. Usually, most of us get some sort of little nudge from the Divine saying, hey, something’s different. So we feel really peaceful, or very loving, very blissful, we feel very clear about the truth, we feel very whole, right? Those tend to be kind of the the initial experiences that arise out of the awakened space, which is always with us. But not always, every now and then I have a few students come my way. And they haven’t gotten that at all. It’s just something started moving, and everything’s kind of blowing up. And they tend to be in a lot of pain. So sometimes they end up going to doctors, right? And doctors say, well, we can’t find anything wrong with you. And it’s always important to emphasize that we use all tools available to us. The doctors are important part. And we don’t want to just jump ahead and say, Oh, it’s a spiritual awakening when it could be something that’s actually physically based. But there’s been a couple of people come my way that they have that quality. But that inner movement is happening. Usually what works for them is doing that self inquiry, starting to understand what’s coming and joining with whatever is being brought up into their attention. And so that the key distinction that I make with the spirit awakens that it moves on its own. And so in August of 2007, there have been little bursts and bits and pieces of things through the year that were leading up to that. And then I’m just lying on a bed and not a comfortable bed. It’s too small for me. It’s in Eugene, Oregon, and I’m just staring at the ceiling in a motel I just get a motel room is not exciting at all, not trying to do anything. And all the noise just stopped in my head. And all desire just just went away. And it was kind of like that. I didn’t have like a long experience with it. Before I ran up against a whole bunch of fear and issues that I had to process. Of course I didn’t understand that at the time. I just kind of wandered around Eugene, Oregon, very quiet mind, no desire for anything.

Rick Archer: And how long did that last?

Jim Tolles: Maybe six hours. And then then something kicked up inside me, because I had just so much fear inside me, Rick, it’s just I was paralyzed for most of my life with fear. And I remember one of my first what I would call a spiritual opening. And so that, to me is more typical of what happens for a lot of people where they get interested in the spiritual path is they have an opening, a sense of what’s real. And then they have to really choose to go do something, and they’re not usually being driven so hard by the inner world. And so I had a spiritual opening, where I was out hiking with a friend of my brother. And you know, it’s just a regular hike, you know, I’m a 20 something, I’m in good shape. But he was so hard, Rick, I’m like, Oh, my God, I’m like pouring sweat. It’s not that hot. And I kind of had a sense at that point that something kind of spiritual was going on. And I remember I’m like, starting to climb as journeyed from a hike to climb and this really craggy crappy rock, you know, type of stuff that falls apart in your hands. And I’m just getting so scared. And it’s the first time where I really feel and issues start to arise. Right. So it’s just kind of more of this beautiful preparation, I think, for the work that was going to come from me. And then you know, I’m sitting this one point and looking down at what’s bad and looking up and it looks bad. And like, Oh, God, no spheres coming up in me. And actually, Eckhart Tolle really comes in handy at that point where like, I just remembered that I just have to be super present. And so whenever I was climbing, I got so present, I could see, every place we needed to put my hands in what I stopped the fear, with just kept rising up into my chest, at one point as like, hiking, climbing up this stupid mountain in the middle of the desert, I just realized I’m gonna start crying. And so all this emotion, all this fear comes out. And that’s the first time I have a really big opening, really big clearing and healing. But I also was very clear in that moment, how much more fear was inside. And so this wasn’t like a moment where I jumped to the conclusion, oh, I’m free of all things. That was June before the August awakening. And that really kind of informed me of what was ahead. And then things just kind of start to create their own cycles, and I really am just being broken down internally. And at times, you know, as the years go ahead, I don’t have much of energy, much energy at all, to even get off the couch some days.

Rick Archer: I think the part of the reason that some people do scary, dangerous stuff, you know, like climbing or, or real challenging sports type things is it forces them to be in the present, you know, it’s like a do or die kind of situation. And, you know, in a way it gives them a spiritual experience.

Jim Tolles: Yeah, absolutely. But that was not the intent. And so for me, I mean, there’s another way where I emphasize like, it was really just following my own flow in life to trust where I was being drawn, because it’s taking me to all the things and places that I need to confront, that I might not have done on my own, like, I was not a thrill seeker person, not that much fear stuck inside me. I was I’d be very aversive to that type of situation, if I knew in advance what I was in for.

Rick Archer: So do you sort of look back now and have a sense of why you had so much fear all your life? Oh, yeah. Can you give a reason to it?

Jim Tolles: Well, I think it’s a combination of upbringing and genetics, and society, you know, everybody has a different set of core issues that get clumped together, that make us aversive to different things. And so that’s, that’s really where most of us in our in our work end up is back in childhood, we’re just initial moments. It doesn’t have to be like a huge trauma. It’s just some subtle thing, where you see it in the actions of the people around you, your caregivers, whoever they happen to be, that they’re scared of something and you just you just start to mimic it, you start to believe it in a way that you don’t even realize you’re necessarily believing. And so this is kind of like a topic that I send to you around like Silent wounds, like we don’t have to be physically hurt. We don’t even have to be be yelled at or like have anything bad happen to be wounded in different ways. And they build up over time.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I mean, here’s some points from that article. Silent Ones are not repressed trauma, learning to identify unhealthy patterns, keeping the journal the family tradition of silent wounds, repetitious nature of silent wounds, breaking out of generational pain, and so on. So, so I guess you’re you’re implying that everyone carries these around. And yeah, you had a particularly generous dose of them to deal.

Jim Tolles: Yeah, and I don’t want to say I want to emphasize it’s not bad that we have them. Or this is kind of the nature of ignorance in the way that we just I think you’re kind of evolving, but all these things kind of grew up on their own and we do didn’t really know how to think about these things. And I think there’s a way that there’s a level of evolution and what we do and self inquiry on how we can start to take apart in our ego selves versus just blindly believing that we believe what we believe we are as we are starting to understand how much flexibility is there and how we can change the way our inner world is a very empowering thing.

Rick Archer: So is that what kind of dawned on you in August 2007, when you had that awakening you it was like, a crack in the, in the wall of fear that had boxed you in over over the years and began to feel empowered.

Jim Tolles: Not yet no. Later, that was that was really just a start. And you know, I started going through a long collapse, I have a lot of pride to Rick. So pride to me is one of the great hiders there’s a couple of big hiders, that shame, shame is always trying to hide our issues, keep them out of sight. Pride is another one where we’re trying to give a face to the world that hey, look, I’m strong, we can me I’m Jim tolls, blah, blah, blah. And that had to go. And the inner divided me and God knew that that this had to start to break down for me to allow things to move. And the same point, you know, there’s something about fear that so constricting walls are so tight in those places, and so probably doesn’t even let you look at that. And so there’s a part that’s breaking down and other parts being pried open. But I don’t really understand what kind of space I need, or what specific tools, I really kind of need to engage with it and how I’m going to do that. So I just kind of have a foot in both worlds for a while, like three years. And those are uncomfortable times, I’m always happy when people come to me early on that I can encourage them to to make space sooner than I did. Because, you know, there’s nothing wrong with the jobs that I’m doing. It’s just I’ve moved on. And my energy isn’t there. It doesn’t want to do those things. And it’s breaking me down internally, to open me up further to different levels of issues. And to be a spiritual teacher. I mean, initially, that whole idea scared the crap out of me. I think part of the journey. Yeah, yeah, part of me knew how much work was going to have to go inside me. So it can be clear to so many different types of people and so many different types of issues. So all that kind of kept me like, well, let’s just keep doing the technology thing. And I moved to the San Francisco Bay Area and had a very hard year, because a part of me was breaking up, and I’m still trying to live away that, that it’s no longer truthful to me.

Rick Archer: Well, I think it’s good not to rush into being a spiritual teacher. And I think, you know, some people do that. And they should really, you know, cook for quite a few years, perhaps before taking on that responsibility. That’s a good word. Cook. Yeah. I mean, there’s even traditional in some traditions that you know, you have an awakening even a very profound abiding one, and you wait 10 years before you become a spiritual teacher. So now, there have been all sorts of messy situations where people have rushed into it.

Jim Tolles: Yeah, it’s easy to become a wounded healer, you know, as a spiritual teacher, where you’re still tending to your own wounds, and you’re trying to help others when you haven’t addressed your own.

Rick Archer: Yeah, that is not to say, as I believe you are saying that you can’t be a spiritual teacher and ragged, readily acknowledged that you’re still a work in progress. You know, but if I encountered people who have what I consider to probably be a fairly preliminary awakening, and they think they’re done, or Oh, yeah, they actually use the word Enlightenment, or perfection, or something. And that kind of gives me the willies. Yeah, yeah,

Jim Tolles: I totally understand that. And that’s, I definitely have that cautionary tale with you, we’ll say, Well, let’s start with yourself. If you really want to be a teacher, you want to be a healer, that’s wonderful. We need you, we emphatically need you. In this world, you will not have a lack of work. Unfortunately, it would be great. If we did, it would be great. And I would just go live in the woods. And I wouldn’t do any more of this because everybody would just be kind, right, you just wouldn’t think about hurting each other. You think about cooperating around difficulties. And we have genuine difficulties in this world. We need to face mutations and disease, natural disasters, food shortages, water supply stuff, like there are genuinely real issues without creating more. And we do create more. So the emphasis is always go within start with yourself, the more you start with yourself, if it’s time for you to teach different people kind of come your way. And definitely my own teaching, you know, as I’ve grown, like different types of people would kind of come into my life and come out and come in and come out. For me, the bigger thing really was, I claimed the space about three years later, and October of 2010. And that was really just acknowledging to myself, this really is something that I need to do. But the bigger piece was starting to blog then.

Rick Archer: So when you say you claim the space, that means you kind of assume the role of a spiritual teacher willingly, consciously, that’s

Jim Tolles: it. Yeah. And I say it on my blog, right, and it’s no longer just kind of hi Sitting on the back of my head, and there was just so much energetic pressure once again, that counts pushes me into it. But the bigger piece was really the writing that I wrote this ebook, everyday spirituality cultivating an awakening. And then, you know, I really started getting into the blog and developing that, and that I think has been, was the more important piece as opposed to working with people. But, you know, each year was just very illuminating. And the number of people I’ve taught and it was just so divinely inspired, because I wasn’t like delude with people to work with at first, it’s like, Spirit knew how much I could handle. Yeah. And it just like, you know, I’d have a couple here and a couple here that I go through a grace period, and then I get a few more. So this beautiful way that it’s gradually expanded on its own, so I feel very lucky and cared for and that sort of way.

Rick Archer: Yeah, so you say you’re kind of playing that, that, that role in 2010, which would have been three years after your awakening, but then you say that the greatest of shifts came in the fourth, fifth and six years after awakening and truly consumed your life during those times. So can you give us some in detail about that?

Jim Tolles: It’s, it’s just so boring from the outside, inside, you know, it’s, it’s just so intense, it’s just like, you really are being cooked alive, and just have so little energy for things. And because another aspect of that 2010 was just a deeper choosing of what was arising. So I really am turning towards this inner shifts, embracing this submerging light in the healing that’s needed. And I still don’t really have that great of a perspective on myself, but I’m getting better at that point, or I’m starting to understand, okay, like I can feel some of these years ahead are actually going to be kind of difficult, because of the things that have to come up. But they’re less difficult in those years. Because I’m just surrendering to it. So I definitely have taken more of the road of hard knocks, whenever I’m teaching, I’m trying to help people make it a lot easier on themselves. And it was, you know, for me, yeah, but yeah, you’re just kind of lying on the couch. And it’s like, things are coming up, and you just kind of burning through fears and other things. Yeah,

Rick Archer: I think that there’s a phenomenon where if you decide to take on the role of a spiritual teacher, you know, it’s like, the divine says, Okay, you want to do this, then here you go, we’re gonna, we’re gonna kind of, you know, mold you and cook you and, you know, purify you. So you can really do this more effectively. And so it really turns up the heat, you know,

Jim Tolles: it absolutely does. And I would hope it does that for everyone who wants to take on this role, because to your point, you can get yourself into some interesting places, if if you haven’t really worked with your own issues, if you don’t know what you’re bringing into the room, I usually have a sense of what I’m bringing into the room. And I’m very energetically sensitive. So I have strong senses of how people feel and how that’s interacting energetically with me. And so if I have too much issues inside of myself, there’s certain people I’m not going to be able to work with. And so that’s why that sort of purification is so so important, because it does get cloudy and messy for whoever you’re working with. And if you can’t be clear in that space, then it’s just gonna get very confused and

Rick Archer: the blind leading the blind. Yeah. So, you know, so you’re not using awakening in any kind of absolute final status, so I don’t use them now. And it’s been nine years since your awakening. So if you were to compare your subjective state now to what it was nine years ago, how would you compare it

Jim Tolles: so much for your just the peace with myself, there’s intense fear and anger and restlessness that was being hidden by pride. And also, if we flashback to like, October 2005, you know, I wouldn’t say that anything’s wrong, but that’s what’s going on. And so now, there’s just a much deeper appreciation of flow, that I’m really not controlling my life, you know, the best I can do is CO create with life. And so this, to me is the metaphor of the river, and us with our boats and our paddles. It’s like, you can paddle and you can paddle a lot of different directions, it’s usually best not to paddle upstream, which you know, I think I’ve done enough of in my life, is that you just start to surrender more to that. But you also see that there are rocks and challenges in life. And you don’t give up your autonomy in that sense. In fact, you get more autonomy because of how you’re engaged. And because you’re clear in yourself that you can say this is a rock, I don’t really want to hit it. If you’re busy trying to swim upstream, and paddle upstream, or putting yourself on the shore or wherever you’re doing, you tend to run into more things because you’re not engaged with what’s real encase with these illusions in your head, so I have far fewer illusions. I mean, as of like, this latest kind of shift because one of the things to me about being a human being is we’re shifting and changing right there’s this beautiful space of oneness, that’s always is always embraces whatever is going on in us. And it’s like the more we rest in that the more we kind of shift divinely and beautifully. And so right now I’m kind of in a more beautiful, calmer shift, which I really appreciate, after having been good Three, nine years. You know, it’s this wonderful joyousness it’s kind of moving now, but it will come and go. So I don’t hold on to that state. All states are shifting and changing.

Rick Archer: Yeah. You mentioned of the stream, you know, is, I think that that nursery rhyme is very apt, you know, row row, row your boat gently down the stream. It’s like, you’re rowing, you’re not just letting the stream carry wherever it will into rocks and stuff, but, but gently, you know, not forcibly, and you’re going with the current, you know, because the current actually knows where to go. It’s a great little, you know, even the second part is good. And merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily Life is but a dream.

Jim Tolles: Yeah, yeah. I mean, my intuition has always been strong, I feel very grateful to my family for allowing that, you know, it was not suppressed, we was very much encouraged that you trust your inner knowing. And so one of the examples I’d love to give is, in like, April of 2010, I kind of had a feeling that I should get health insurance because I had just finished a contract and didn’t have it. And then, you know, a couple months later, I had this kind of feeling, I should kind of stick around, I was thinking about going on this trip on this dance camp thing, because I was really enjoying conscious dance, I found it a very useful term tool for understanding bodies and for opening bodies on its own terms. And then one night, you know, I suddenly come down with appendicitis, you know. And so this intuitive things, told me things I couldn’t possibly know. And you’d have to have health insurance, thank goodness. And you know, to be close to a hospital, 30 minute drive to the hospital, as opposed to however long it would have been if I went on this trip. You know, that was already 13 years too long. You feel every bump in the road. And it was very, very happy that I listened to my intuition. So that was one of many moments that reinforces there’s this inner divine self trust.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Yeah. As long as you can attune to it, and, you know, not mistake crazy whims for some kind of divine guidance. There’s a sort of a subtlety and discernment that is required. I think,

Jim Tolles: yeah. And yeah, absolutely.

Rick Archer: So when you say your family was cooperative, are you talking about? Do you have like a wife and kids? Are you talking about yours, some earlier thing with your birth family.

Jim Tolles: I was talking childhood childhood, that’s where so much determines, you know, how we think about ourselves and how we view life and what we’re going to be open to what we’re going to be closed. And so my biological family is very open to listening to your intuition about different things and just just going with it.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Okay, so that’s

Jim Tolles: one other point about intuition is, it’s as we work through different issues and our ego attachments, that does make intuition a lot clearer. And one of the aspects of it is, or there’s many aspects to it, but it tends to be consistent. And it tends to not have to force you to do anything where the ego tends to barter, or scare you into things like a lot of superstition. Is this kind of scary that something bad’s gonna happen. Intuition doesn’t usually do that. My experience with it, it’s tends to be just kind of this simple arising like go right. And it doesn’t have a threat to it doesn’t say that left is bad or right is better just kind of have that sense. You go right. So you.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I heard this. I read this great thing, from Papaji, who was walking with somebody in Rishikesh. And he wanted to go a certain way. And the guy said, Well, why are we going this way? And he said, I don’t know. And they kept walking. And he said, Well, you know, what are we going to where we’re going to end up? And he said, I don’t know. And it’s like, if there was a series of questions like that, he had no idea why he was going that particular direction, but then they finally got to some obscure place. And there was some guy there who had just been waiting for him to show up. And it was the perfect sort of meeting with the guy that the guide needed at that time for his, you know, spiritual unfoldment. And, and then, you know, they went on, you know, Papaji had no idea why he was was going that way. But his intuition was that clear. And he trusted it that much. It sounds like you yourself, have undergone a lot of healing and purification and cooking, as we said, and I suppose are still doing so although maybe it’s gotten a little bit less intense. How do you facilitate that and others people with whom you your work?

Jim Tolles: Yeah, I mean, a lot of what I do is actually just kind of a focus, relaxation. And it’s really, really beautiful that if you sit with somebody and you have them breathe and relax with you for about 15 minutes, things just start to come up on their own. And so when I work with people, I talk to them a lot about observe and report, you know, just tell me the raw data like, you know, what are you feeling physically in your chest or the emotions or the thoughts because as people relax, there’s something very truthful starts to arise. And there’s an energetic connection to the work and so there’s kind of a way where we like to want And together. And so somebody says, Oh, I’m feeling nauseous, and my stomach Well, if it because of something you ate, you can breathe into that part of you, the nausea is not going away. But if it’s actually an issue, and as they breathe into their stomach, it tends to rise and changes. So the nausea goes away. Now there’s this tightness in the solar plexus or diaphragm, then there’s this kind of heaviness in the chest and not always moving its way up. But a lot of times it does. So it kind of like coming up in the consciousness. And then it gets expressed, sometimes it’s like this realization, a lot of times, it’s just tears. And then as it goes, there’s a sense of lightness, the sense of opening and clarity that comes after an issue like that is moved. And you can do it with usually the trunk helps the best, you know, using the body, the center of the body, rather a extremities, that seems to work the most. And it’s just interesting to watch how this just naturally wants to happen. So I think part of healing that I really like to emphasize is that human being is a self cleaning system, it doesn’t want to hold things down, it takes a lot of energy to hold pain down. And the more we’re holding down we’re doing is usually a sign of how much pain we have. And so that’s part of the reason I think letting go and surrender so scary for a lot of people is that as you let go, you suddenly you know, find yourself out of control, and that all this other stuff that’s been held down comes up, that’s not always gonna be that way. Because you can, you know, everything’s possible. And some people can be very clear until the letting go really does bring a lot of peace and joy very quickly. But we’ve gotten really good at not liking ourselves in this culture. To me, one of the big problems is this sense of I am not okay. And we say this to ourselves in tons of ways. I’m not smart enough. I’m not good enough. I’m not pretty enough. I’m not attractive enough. Not wealthy enough, right. That’s just that not at this expressing itself in 100 million different ways. And that to me, is a central wound right now and a lot of Westerners.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I’ve heard the holding down thing, illustrated with the analogy of trying to hold a beach ball underwater. Yeah, exactly. Just trying to get up and you’re pushing. Yeah, it takes constant effort to keep it under water.

Jim Tolles: Exactly. And that leads to addictions, whether it’s, you’re addicted to your work, or sex, or to substances or to all these different things, that it takes so much energy to do that, to to keep it down and to keep it numb, because pain doesn’t feel good. And then we don’t like feeling numb. So then we start to look for more things to stimulate us again, so we can feel good again. And it’s just a really, really messy cycle.

Rick Archer: I think this is a really important point, because as you know, and it’s most people know, there’s a huge opioid epidemic in this country right now. And when I hear about that on the news, you know, I think I think to myself, you know, these people, they really don’t get that what was the phrase, you just use that the body is a self cleaning or self purifying system, and that, you know, this stuff wants to come out. And if we keep stuffing it down, we’re number one, we’re not going to succeed. And number two, it’s, it’s going to take more and more effort. And maybe number three, there’s going to be more and more to stuff. And so the longer we continue to do that, the harder it’s going to get, and if there could, this is one of those things. And I think there are others where if there could just be a greater cultural understanding of the way of the way we’re wired and the way things work. It can save people so much pain. Yeah,

Jim Tolles: yeah. And so I really want to emphasize for everyone who watches this, that healing doesn’t mean anything is bad about you. It’s just kind of a necessity of the times to come into alignment. And this is the doorway to spiritual growth. So to me, spiritual growth is a whole other aspect. I mean, a lot of things are intertwined. Like I create these distinctions that don’t really exist, but they seem to be helpful to help people focus themselves on what’s going on. So sometimes the metaphor I’ll use is like having two broken legs. And growth is more like being able to run while you’re not going to run into broken leg. So you have to attend to those and there are certain things that you do. And so part of that is this kind of breaking down of oneself. And what I’m always hopeful to do through my work in my writing is help people do that mindfully and as gently as possible for something that’s going to get messy. And you need to accept that it’s gonna get messy, because that’s just how it goes. You know, things are pissy and gangrene is like it’s gonna be gross. Once you get down there and you start putting bones back together. It’s not fun. And of course, you know, there’s the whole element of how much trauma people endure. I mean, depending on who you want to ask him the number of women who are sexually abused is somewhere between one and three or one and six, depending on how pessimistic I’m usually in the one in four from my own experience as a teacher, and a lot of times that’s repressed. And so you know, there’s there’s that element of courage. So a lot of people need to have, depending on what’s going on in their background, to be willing to step into a lot of really, really nasty discomfort as part of that beach ball, as you rightly use that metaphor as that starts to come up because it’s a powerful beach ball with a lot of emotion. should add energy to it. But in so doing, I mean, some of the people who feel the most empowered from this type of work are those who’ve had trauma. And I’m sure you’ve heard these stories before. Because if you can go through that kind of hell, and it really is hell, it’s gonna take a lot to ever scare you again.

Rick Archer: You know how, with an individual spiritual awakening, as in your own case, it provides the space for things to start bubbling up and clearing out. And and you have to kind of continue working with that process. Do you feel like that there may be something going on on a societal level where there’s some kind of more mass awakening taking place, and it’s resulting in more and more people having stuff bubble up, that they may or may not know how to deal with?

Jim Tolles: I really don’t know how to I would even quantify it.

Rick Archer: I mean, maybe that is counts for the opioid epidemic, you know, I mean, among other things,

Jim Tolles: yeah. I mean, I just don’t even know how I would quantify it, just say you know, that people are more or less conscious, or, you know, more stuff is coming up. I think the bigger point really is just encouraging people to want to do the work, that it is absolutely worth it. No matter how bad you feel, you can walk through that fire. And that, to me is the key point. Because if we all on mass make that choice, then, then I think that does become a reality that you do see, like more people are conscious. And in that type of stuff. I’m also concerned about technology and feedback loops. Because right now we can feed back the story, we’ll want to hear about a lot of different things and a lot of different ways. So I don’t know, all I know is I want to help as many people as I can, to become more conscious and to be free of pain.

Rick Archer: So let’s say you meet with people once a week or once a month or whatever, probably most of them over Skype some of them in person. Do you kind of try to get them set up to do something on a daily basis on their own? Because obviously just meeting with you occasionally may not be enough for you? Yeah,

Jim Tolles: no, I want to be the catalyst and that that equation that helps you kind of jump through things that you’re struggling with or takes you to the next step of realization of healing of wherever somebody is, it’s always intuitive for the person that when I sit with somebody, I want to find out what’s working for them what they’re drawn to, and encourage them that way. And sometimes where people are drawn to scares them. And that’s usually a sign that that’s where you need to go, whether it’s like a book about a particular topic that’s really upsetting to you that may be reflecting part of your own experience. And that’s where you have to go as your next step. So I often think about this path, also as rungs on a ladder. You know, certain rungs are needed at certain times. And they need to take that first step you don’t step on rung number five, if you haven’t stopped on rung number one, I certainly you know, I’m a strong advocate for meditation. But that’s not the only thing that can really help people. It’s just a way to get people to stop moving. And in a culture where we’re so focused on doing things, getting people to stop moving is really key to even paying attention to what’s happening aside, and I’ve usually been a strong advocate for journaling, where, rather than talking about what happened today, the journaling is really about asking yourself, why did I react to these different things, because so many of our reactions are so unconscious, that we don’t really understand the beliefs and assumptions that are driving those reactions. So that’s a way to start to turn the lens inward onto the ego. So

Rick Archer: yeah, this thing about stop stopping moving is important. I was been a real busy guy, but I know when I learned to meditate back in the 60s, it was such a relief to to stop moving. And I continued to be a busy guy, I mean, I was a teenager, I got it, I was going into a rock band, I do all this stuff. But I always found it so rejuvenating to sit, you know, for half an hour or whatever I did. Twice a day that it never took discipline. You know, it was something I looked forward to not something I had to force myself to do. So if you give yourself a chance, and if you do it in such a way that it actually works and allows you to really settle down, it’s so easy to make it part of your routine.

Jim Tolles: Absolutely. So that’s a that’s a great way to work towards the relaxation. And you know, it’s a powerful thing with the human body, we definitely seem to interact through action and relaxation, this kind of very fundamental nervous system things and I don’t know totally natural

Rick Archer: cycle. I mean, look at the success of sleep and waking. So rest in activity is a natural cycle. And if you can, if you can introduce a meditation practice that provides really, really deep rest and some types of said to produce deeper rest and sleep. Then it just it just sets up another cycle within your life of rest and activity. Yeah, I

Jim Tolles: actually kind of stumbled on a certain level of rest. I called it my Yogi sleep when I didn’t have any other word for it. During that 2008 year where everything was just kind of blowing up for me, because I couldn’t sleep well at night. I didn’t understand exactly what to do. I had a sense that a lot of things were being processed in my sleep. And so I would just kind of lie with my, my knees at 90 degrees and my back flat on the ground. And after a certain point, I would kind of go into a little bit of a trance sleep state. And after that, I would feel really great. Yeah, and there are other ways where like, meditation was a great, great, great way to rest. But going back to the this point around the action and relaxation, you know, there are other students where they really need to do some sort of action. So like something that can get them moving, energetically get something starting to work through some of the blocks, so it’s different for each person. So Kundalini Yoga breathwork, you know, some of those different things can be very powerful movers. But you don’t actually use that for the same, you know, for for every student. And so this is why I’m always looking for what is true for this person. That’s really the key part here is like, what is true for the person who’s sitting in front of me helping them find that, and then yes, in between sessions, I used to work every two weeks with people, they need to be doing them. If they just try to rely on me, that’s also kind of part of this illusion that somebody else has something for you or fixes you, or all those other things. That is another big problem. Not just the spiritual, but in general, we look to others as this sort of kind of hero to fix it, or change it or make it better. And we need to be our own heroes.

Rick Archer: Yeah. And you can make time for this stuff. I mean, Gandhi once said, I have a really busy day today. So I’m going to meditate two hours this morning instead of one. You know, you can make time for it. And and it pays off in terms of greater efficiency, you actually have more time in your day, if you take some time out of your day to do something like this, you could use the analogy of shooting an arrow, you know, if you just sort of hold it and drop it, it’s not gonna go anywhere. But if you pull it back, first, it’ll hit the target. So being able to sort of go really deep and silent, kind of creates a momentum for the rest of your day.

Jim Tolles: Yeah, and I think there’s some big neurological benefits of that, I think there’s some interesting research is starting to go on out there. And I don’t know what any of it well enough to, to quote it, but just an appreciation for how the human body works, that, you know, we’re changing our biochemical makeup, which changes how we feel and changes how we think and interact with life. And that, I think, is an important aspect of integration, when we start to use that term on the spiritual path to appreciate that certain things have to change in our minds, like physically in our brains to think and interacting with life a different way, and changing how these different bio chemicals are coming up inside and what they make us feel because that’s a lot of what emotions really are, are really just labeling, you know, cortisol fear, right? That’s what we don’t like. I mean, this is more complicated. Yeah, I guess. But, yeah, it’s very complicated. But I just think it’s important to appreciate that level of us. And that’s another aspect, why I think meditation can be really powerful in other spiritual practices, because we’re reteaching, that sort of inner space. And that’s, that’s the thing that we’re usually most upset about is like if something doesn’t feel good in our bodies. And so that’s a powerful way to talk to the body.

Rick Archer: Yeah, most people listening have probably heard the term neuroplasticity, I’m sure you have. And, you know, we actually change the brain through through practices like this. And that’s been measured and is continuing to be measured. And not only the brain, but even the genes. I have a book on the shelf behind me called SUPER GENES by Deepak Chopra, and Rudy tansy, and they’re finding that, you know, genes, which are once thought to be unchangeable, actually change and in response to the things we do. So we really can, like, you know, slow down the aging process and bring about all kinds of marvelous transformation physiologically, which is important and is actually correlated with any significant subjective change an experience.

Jim Tolles: Yeah, and I really think this is important. This is my own theory. But I think it’s really important for our own evolution, right? To move beyond our heritage of the reptilian brain. Yeah. And that fight, flight freeze, and occasionally faint mechanism really drives most of what people do. They’re really just kind of acting from that. And I think this is something that the more people do their inner work, you just see that it’s like, yeah, this, this whole need to be a billionaire or need to have this or all these things. Those are just those deeper impulses, still telling us how to live our lives when we don’t need those anymore. Back when we were wombats. We needed them. I should go mate today, right? We needed the sex drive. It’s to me, there’s really three fundamentals. You know, I’m definitely open to hearing others, but it’s nothing new. It’s like the fear of death, aversion to pain, which is closely linked to death. But if somebody feels too much physical pain, then they’d rather choose death unfortunately, and suicides a big issue in a lot of areas of life. And that kind of gets overlooked, I think, at times, and then of course, the drive to procreate. And to me, those are the fundamentals that genetically we do need to change because we can think about whether we want to have kids or not, we don’t need that drive in that same sort of way. We don’t need to be told whether if we want to live or die anymore, but to me that that’s really you know, the whole physiological impact is still very powerful. And in how people interact with life and how they see life, a lot of people really are still stuck and seeing things as as a friend or foe situation. And we’re just so used to hiding with all these other so called rational thoughts that it seems to not be there. But in my experience in delving inwards, they’re very much there. And that, to me is part of the breathing and the relaxation. And all that inner work is to start to turn off some of those old jeans, tamped down the amount of cortisol, if I’m scared or triggered by something, because it’s no longer necessary. It doesn’t help me one great example, is last November, almost, almost a year ago, I lost my apartment, because there was an apartment complex fire, I was never in any physical danger, thank God, you know, for the people upstairs, who knocked on my door and told me to get out. And actually nothing actually burned in my apartment, but there’s smoke damage. But during that moment, the amount of all of the neurotransmitters that said that you’re, you’re under threat, and you should be scared, we’re just consuming. And that gets in the way, of course, rationally thinking about what do I need to do in the situation? In hindsight, I feel like I did, alright, you know, got my computer, because this is kind of how this is my work and how I do things, and I get my car out of the way. But there are definitely certain ways we all could have coordinated better if we weren’t just like so much in that flight Netta. mindset. So that’s just another way I can illustrate the need to evolve beyond it, because it really inhibits our ability to think there’s a beautiful talk about neurobiology and trauma, and I can’t remember the guys name, but it was on YouTube. And I really encourage people to look at it. No, no, I think it was somebody from the University of Arkansas or something like that. And he talks about in a traumatic incident, you know, the worst trauma is how it shuts down the front of the brain. And so you can’t think in that way, that’s not useful to us. In traumatic situations, we actually need to be able to think about them.

Rick Archer: Yeah, and actually, there has been meditation research showing that people who were repeatedly habitually traumatized, the certain parts of the frontal cortex actually shut down permanently, they have functional holes in their brain, so to speak, it would show up on magnetic resonance, and so on and, and met certain meditation practices have been shown to heal that and you know, so those holes disappear, and they begin to the brain begins to function more normally. And, of course, this has a lot to do with the whole veterans PTSD situation, which ties back into the drug thing that we were talking about earlier. So there’s just a lot of people walking around with, you know, a lot of pent up stress and neurological damage as a result of it, which is healable. And, you know, and it’s not, it’s not something we should just drag away with this, that of the other suppressant. It’s something that should actually be healed and worked out and resolved once and for all.

Jim Tolles: Yeah, I mean, more PT, PTSD is terrible. Yeah, it is absolutely terrible, you know, when I’m working with somebody, and you’re dealing with that, and I think that that, to me, were is a point where I really appreciate modern pharmacology, right, you know, where there are certain ways we have to calm someone down enough to even be able to get them to think in different ways to start to build up a meditation practice, because it’s so powerful, you know, this, this whatever their their preferences towards fighting or running from something that is just consumed them. I’m sorry, go ahead. Well, I just think it’s important to appreciate that you know, that the trauma of everyday living with PTSD, not just like the initial trauma that caused it is very powerful, and needs a lot of support from different sources. And this is another way where I encourage people to appreciate the whole spectrum of choices, that it’s not just sit and meditate, but I think these other things become really key and intense trauma. Yeah.

Rick Archer: I remember one time I played a game of Wally ball with some friends, which I had never played before. And it’s like volleyball played on a racquetball courts. So you’re bouncing the ball off the different walls, and it’s really intense, you know, and the balls coming out this way. And that, and that evening, when I sat and meditated, there were a couple of occasions where the ball was coming at me and my hands actually went up like this meditation, unwinding that impression. So I mean, if you can get that from a game or volleyball, imagine what it’s like being in battle. And the and not having an opportunity to release that and having it pile on layer after layer really needs to get unwound.

Jim Tolles: Absolutely, and you know, we’re dealing with a history of PTSD like that doesn’t go away. It’s gets suppressed in the Civil War. It gets suppressed in World War One World War Two, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, right, because we’re not very good at dealing with it. I’ve heard some really positive things around some more beneficial treatments that are coming to veterans in terms of the healing on that level, but still like what happens to the family when somebody comes back, and they’re just drinking themselves to numb themselves and how that starts. traditions that go generations of alcoholism or, you know, it’s just traditions of physical beatings because they start acting it out on their son, or their daughter, you know. So these are cycles of suffering that we have to end. And it’s tough for anybody who has been stuck in that, you know, that familiar, familial, generational suffering, but it’s really, really necessary because otherwise we just keep passing it on. Yeah.

Rick Archer: And we have the tools to end it. And it may seem Elementary to us, you know, because we talk about this stuff all the time. But it’s not Elementary to the common understanding and society. And I think, you know, perhaps shows like this, and people doing what you’re doing and so on, can make it more commonly known? Shouldn’t you need to make it more commonly known?

Jim Tolles: Yeah. And it’s just all we can do. You know, Rick, and anybody else who’s watching who’s who’s a healer is just inspire people and let them know that they can heal it. Because when you’re facing this stuff, it always takes you down to the most basic, most primal part of your brain where everything feels impossible. I’ve had it with like simple issues, you know, compared it to PTSD, and it just feels like it’s never gonna end feels impossible. And it just feels sometimes like you’re dying. Yeah. But then it passes, right, and then you find that you’re better for, for having gone through it, and you’ve released it, and you’re clear about life and happier with life. And the same thing applies to PTSD and these other more difficult things that people really can move through it, you really can’t. It’s difficult, I really encourage people to think about creating a broader support system, the more difficult the issue, the more support you need. It’s not just a teacher, it’s not just some therapists, but it’s also just a few close loved ones, it is your spiritual practice, because you have to do this for yourself. And probably a couple other things, and to a certain degree of faith in God. Like I think this is where faith is really, really useful for people to believe that there’s something deeper, more powerful that is supporting them through this real real awful ordeal.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I’m glad you mentioned that. And I think, you know, thinking about and talking about it and better understanding it, as we’re doing now, I think helps to culture that faith is, you know, if you start sort of thinking deep, more deeply about the way things are actually working, and kind of appreciating, we were talking earlier about intuition. And you know, if you can sort of tune in and realize that life is not just sort of random, arbitrary capricious, but it’s actually intelligently orchestrated, that can have a huge impact on your way of operating on your, on your psychology.

Jim Tolles: Yeah, I think, you know, it’s definitely something really important that earlier on you’re on your path, because you’re not going to have evidence yet in your own experience. So having that faith that, okay, this feels terrible now, but it will pass this too shall pass. And I don’t want to be glib about that. Because it can sound a little glib, this too shall pass. Because when you’re right in the middle of an issue, and you’re feeling terrible, and you’re feeling all this fear or suffering, something physically happened to you, your body can be experiencing those fears, kind of like what you said, were like, your arms go like that. Right? Your body remembers these things. That’s one of the ways where I help people get into some of these traumas, or especially repressed memories, that your body remembers what happened, even if your mind can’t, and that becomes a crucial doorway, into really working through some of these different pains. And so the more you can move through it, the more you know, in your experiential life that you can, but the outset, faith is just so critical.

Rick Archer: You know, one thing I do, I don’t know if this would work for everybody. But in addition to other things I do, one thing I do when, you know, there seem to be sort of troubling things that are bothering me or something like that. I look at pictures of galaxies. You know, you know what I mean by that, it’s like, you get a sense of the vastness of the universe and how small your life is, and how there are probably trillions of little dramas going on, you know, many of them much worse than yours. And it just kind of gives you this broadens your perspective, I just find that helpful. Just kind of mentioned. Yeah, I’ve

Jim Tolles: been really enjoying the World Science festivals YouTube channel, they have some wonderful talks about things like we’re talking about neuroscience and cosmology,

Rick Archer: check that out. A few questions came in from someone in Emma in Italy. This is the first question is one I was thinking to ask you a few minutes ago, does transmission happened with your students?

Jim Tolles: If we’re talking about you know, energy moves between people, I would say that happens all the time with all of us. We’re all energy, and that that’s always kind of moving around. It’s just a little bit. I would like to believe clear, you know, when I sit with somebody with the intent to love and to support and hold them, so, yes, but there’s also a transmission back. I don’t consider it a one way conversation. This is usually the conversation coming back to me. I feel like I’d integrate it, you know, or it just doesn’t trigger anything to be pushing me in any particular direction. I don’t know. I mean, I’m still kind of learning about that, too. Rick. I mean, energy is so wondrous and so intelligent. I just do my best to sit down and show up.

Rick Archer: Yeah. When I think of transmission, I think of it more now. Not so much in terms of like, energy zapping going from point A to point B but rather a sort of an attunement, that takes place. And the the attunement, as you say is has would have a mutual influence. But, you know, if we use the example of logs, if one log is burning brightly, and the other is not burning, or as little damp or something, you put it near the bright log, the burning log, and it dries out and starts to burn. So, there is definitely some kind of influence from proximity or interaction.

Jim Tolles: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. And I’ve definitely experienced that too. I just don’t want to overemphasize my role, because I think it’s so important for people to appreciate their own energy, their own power. Yeah. And really what I’m kind of like getting that fire started, what I’m hoping is that they’re coming into their own natural attunement, not moving to this, like my vibration or anything like that, just going to whatever is appropriate to them.

Rick Archer: So that’s why blessing people with peacock feathers anytime.

Jim Tolles: I think people like plants at times that we’re all different plants, and we need different things. So that’s another way we’re, I think, the metaphor of like, how do I approach this person? You know, what is the energetic support that they need? And sometimes I’m more aware of it, you know, that I’m talking to them from here from my heart, or from that deep gut level, and connecting with them, helping them move into that particular energy in themselves.

Rick Archer: Okay, so this person has MS three questions, and they get progressively more difficult to answer. The second one is how many of your students have become awakened? In what period of time?

Jim Tolles: Yeah, I mean, I don’t really even think of it in that term. You know, what I think about those terms is, are they happy? Do they feel clearer? Do they feel more free to just live their lives? And I’ve seen that with a lot of them. I don’t really keep statistics on me, because it’s just not how I am. And ultimately, it’s kind of up to them to decide, you know, how successful it is not me. I mean, I’ve got Testimonials page that can, if you want to see what some of the people are saying about it, but I really don’t think of it in terms of numbers, I just think of being present to whoever’s in front of me.

Rick Archer: Also, the way your question is phrased, it implies that awakening is some kind of static, ultimate kind of thing, you know, that some, some Terminus point as, as opposed to some shift, and there will probably be other shifts. Yeah,

Jim Tolles: yeah. I mean, as you mentioned, in the very beginning of spiritual awakening, is generally just like the opening salvo. It’s like the prologue, it’s like, surprise, yeah, life is different than what you thought,

Rick Archer: right.

Jim Tolles: And as far as time goes, you know, it’s best to just not even think about time, but just what is necessary, what is needful for you right now, always coming back to right now, the ego likes to look into the future, it’s like, I get to this other point, then everything will be fill in the blank. And for a lot of people, what that ultimately is, is a kind of safety is like, well, then I’ll be safe, right? It won’t be get hurt. It’s like, well, our energy has never heard. But they go through difficulty. And sometimes, that’s where we need to go in our lives, some people are going to go towards difficulty, because that’s what they’re to do is where they’re going to thrive. So the desert, some people are going to go help, you know, the diplomats with war torn countries, that’s not a comfortable place, you know, and they’re going to leave the comfort of maybe like the three car garage and the great pension plan and all that stuff. Because that’s not where they’re thriving. That’s not what’s true for them. Yeah. So that to me is the more interesting thing is how do people feel alive, rather than how we label them as awakened or not?

Rick Archer: Yeah. Now, the third question is, I think, impossible to answer. But I’m curious as to how you’ll answer it after death. How does the after death? Does it make any difference if one dies enlightened or not?

Jim Tolles: Yeah, I’m just so much more focused on the now because I think we stink at living in our lives right now. And that, to me, it’s another kind of kick the can down to down further to, like, look at something in the future want to know that the future is going to be safe in some sort of way around? What happens in, you know, after we die, and things like that. So it’s never really a concern of mine. I appreciate that, that it’s a question that matters to other people. But I don’t have a particularly great answer for it other than coming to this moment, live in this moment fully, you know, if there’s ways that you don’t feel fully alive in this moment, investigate?

Rick Archer: Yeah, I mean, the way I would answer that question would be to say whatever death is, you know, you’ll handle it better if you’ve learned to handle life.

Jim Tolles: Well, yes, one have enjoyed life to some degree if you can, right, right.

Rick Archer: Okay, here’s a here’s a couple of questions from our it’s a two part question from Laura, in the United States. She asks, part one, can you please elaborate on how you experienced this, quote, blowing up time? Were you aware of being in awakening while you’re going through all this, or did you feel that initial awakening had been lost and life was really hard and scary?

Jim Tolles: thing it’s kind of a combination because As you have the ego self that thinks that’s being tortured, you know, it’s being cut apart and things things are going badly. But I also, as I’ve mentioned earlier, had a very strong sense of intuition. So I never felt the awakened space was lost, I didn’t necessarily have as good as words, to describe it in 2008 2009, as I do now, but it really was a sense that was always there, it’s always kind of part of the backdrop, or the canvas that’s holding all the different colors that are coming across my particular palette of life. So there is that fear that comes out of the ego. And that’s part of the processing too. So that there’s an important aspect of knowing when we’re triggered and stepping out of that trigger, so that the deeper fear that’s getting processed comes out, because we can certainly choose to be upset. And I definitely chose to be upset, but I didn’t realize it. And that’s unfortunate is the nature of the ignorance that I was living in which I didn’t understand what this process was that this was like the beach ball coming up. And a part of me was scared of the beach ball. So that kind of gets another beach ball. This is now we go to beach balls. And this is not a whole lot of fun. But I was aware that there was a shift going on, I was aware that this was part of healing and growth, but I didn’t fully understand it.

Rick Archer: Okay, here’s part two of her question. We’ve kind of covered this, but I think you could probably elaborate a little bit more. How would you describe your awakening now? Is there a self, you do have a thing I was listening to about no self. So say about that? How are you defining within yourself that you are indeed awakened?

Jim Tolles: I think it’s just kind of that space of connection. Just so it doesn’t go away. After having realized that 2007 It’s there. And it’s moved me all on its own self, depending on how we’re using that term, right? If there’s ego self, and the true self, I suppose, is kind of like the soul for me. That’s, and, you know, drawing my attention towards that space. And it almost kind of feels like drawing my attention to the back of my mind. But the more I’m there, it’s kind of like that space comes forward. That’s well, that just kind of feels like that’s what’s moving the show? Yeah, I mean, do I have an ego? Yeah, I’m aware of it. And I’m aware of the different preferences and choices. But I like to make the different distinction between unconscious ego that doesn’t know what it is, doesn’t know what can change has to be the way it is, it’s very much a tunnel vision, and a conscious ego, which knows it’s made up and there’s more flexibility with it. So if before the unconscious ego has to do a, whatever A happens to be, the conscious ego knows that A and B and C are choices, and it has access to all of them. And so you can choose a again, right, you can go back to some old patterns and old ways of living. But you’re also more aware of the repercussions of going back to doing that, like I could go back to eating the way I used to as I went through a whole lot of eating changes that my body was very vocally telling me to change during a number of years. But then I would be more conscious of the repercussions of it. And I think that’s an aspect of consciousness that anybody can, can really engage with. And so I don’t like to talk about awakening as better than anything. And many people who awaken weren’t searching for spirituality or interested at all I actually was. And so you know, being thrust into this sort of stuff isn’t necessarily something they want, they don’t necessarily engage with becoming more conscious. So we can all become more conscious of ourselves. And that leads to greater peace and truth.

Rick Archer: Good. So probably some more questions will come in as we go along. But there were certain you’ve written a lot on your blog. And I’ve read, I don’t know, six 710 of your articles. And there are certain ones you recommended to me. And so I thought, maybe just as little stimuli to conversation, I would just read the titles of some of these articles. I’ve taken some notes on what was within the different articles. And we can just chat about those ones which you consider it important. So for instance, this one entitled, life after spiritual death, and truly living, and I have some sub points here, but that title alone should get you started.

Jim Tolles: Yeah, I think there’s this phase of healing that happens after awakening. And that’s been something we’ve emphasized. But then as you continue, because life continues, and I really don’t see our human experience as an endpoint other than death, you start to grow. And that’s kind of that following the river, and it’s funny that you just kind of run out of words when you get to that point, because you just see the river. And it’s like, well, this is what’s here today. The sense of setting goals you can do or not to that’s kind of like that’s common around the unconscious ego, or the unconscious ego would have to be one way or the other. Like, obviously, you can set goals or not, but we don’t need to make them happen. So this is beautiful way where we continue growing like the apple tree, right? It’s past that point of the seed opening, and then it’s past the point of pushing up through the dirt, right? So think of healing like pushing up through the dirt just to get to the light and then it starts to go through growth cycles. And at times, you know, it loses its leaves and Winter and other times it’s flowering and creating fruit, things like that. So that to me kind of is what I’m talking about there, this beautiful rhythm that starts to unfold in us that we just keep following and keeps growing on its own. And that’s really what I mean by like life after that spiritual death life after that breaking down and sloughing away a lot of the old ego, it doesn’t mean you don’t run up against new parts of the ego or old parts as you grow in your branch is pushed out. You do. I mean, every now and then somebody has such a profound awakening that they lose all attachment. And that’s it. But mostly anybody I’ve met who’ve had awakening, it’s a process.

Rick Archer: Even some of the famous ones that were real blow out awakenings like Ramana or Eckhart Tolle or Byron, Katie, they went through years afterwards of processing and integration and stuff,

Jim Tolles: then you just start growing on your own, and it’s so beautiful, it’s no different than like the tree or how our bodies grow. We don’t, we’ll have growing pains at times as we explore new things that we can now do that we couldn’t do before. But it just is so smart. doesn’t need me at all.

Rick Archer: There was a paragraph in that article that I was a little skeptical of you were talking about the beautiful wildness, wildness of awakening, and he said, to the unconscious ego, the awakened person probably seems wild and out of control. And the awakened self is wild and beyond domestication, it will break social rules, because they’re not real. Someone in this wildness can propose to a stranger on a subway as easily as to stay happily in seclusion for 30 years, all of life is open to them. And you know, I’d kind of say personally, I’d say yes and no to that, it doesn’t mean that all awakened people are going to be sort of iconoclast running around doing crazy things. And, like you have some of those crazy wisdom dudes in India that are, you know, sit on a dung heap and throw stones at people all day. And I do know a fellow who, you know, a spiritual teacher who proposed to a woman on on their first date, and they were divorced within a year. So I just don’t know about this crazy out of control thing, I think a person can be highly awakened and appear to be very well regulated in terms of their life, that it’s not like, we’re all going to become crazy, man.

Jim Tolles: No, that’s not the point of being crazy. It’s like the wildness of the river. The river flows and pulls in certain ways, and the loss of the boundaries that we have to be a certain type of person where the ego self has to be socially constrained and has to operate in certain ways. So it’s the opening of the whole book, the whole playbook. It doesn’t mean we use the whole playbook. I don’t think I’ve proposed anybody after getting off the subway before yet in my life. But that’s not to say that I wouldn’t say that’s the intuitive nature the same way that I had no idea that I would have appendicitis, there’s no way I would know that. And if I was still just kind of stuck in the rigidity of my ego. So if I say, You know what, I’m going off on this trip anyway. Right, because that’s, that would be the old unconscious part of me that’s planning everything, controlling everything and thinking that he’s in charge. So that’s really kind of what I was kind of encouraging people to appreciate. It’s just this expansiveness that we don’t allow ourselves when we’re stuck in the ego and stuck in our pain.

Rick Archer: And in a way, going off on that trip would have been the wild thing to do. And I’m just going, and you know, I don’t need health insurance. Whereas you actually did some sober things, you know, careful things. And that saved your life, maybe or saved you a great, yeah.

Jim Tolles: Maybe, you know, Appendix exploding inside you is a bad thing.

Rick Archer: Okay, so here’s another nice article, melting into silence. I have some sub points here. But I like that phrase melting into silence. riff on.

Jim Tolles: Yeah. It’s funny that the more we talked about some of the depths of these things, the more words just don’t work. It’s really it’s a space of energy. And so it’s just another way to talk about presence. And there’s this amazing presence and all of us. And I just I like to keep emphasizing that, because I think people have been taught that they’re not good, right? Going back to what I was talking about that feeling not okay, or that these things are beyond them. I mean, thankfully, no, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand this stuff. Thank goodness, like, we all have access to this beautiful, beautiful place of silence. Usually, when we first started touching that space, though, we’re still caught up in the ego caught up paying attention to our bodies, and how it’s feeling and the emotions that are coming. So the stepping into that silence at first, you just really more still focused on the noise. But as we kind of draw our attention away from the noise, the noise comes down. Sometimes I talked about the heart and the body and the energy. The mind is kind of like puppy dogs. And the puppy dogs just need to be trained. And when you go towards silence, that’s the best trainer right that divine presence inside us, Rick that just started saying no, no your Sit, sit, stay You know, it’s all the rest of us, it’s your money, your money, they’re just like all over the place with our thoughts with our emotions are like I got to do all these 15 errands today. And so that coming back to that science melting into it, these other things start to calm down.

Rick Archer: Actually using your puppy dog analogy, if, you know, let’s say you had a litter of young puppies, and they’re they’re just all over the place or running all over the room. And but let’s say you wanted them to be in one spot, the thing you do is put a bowl of food there, and then all the puppies, they don’t be like that. So, you know, the silence that we’re referring to here is very charming to experience. And if the mind is scattered every which way, if we can give it an opportunity to move in the direction of that silence, it says, Oh, this is charming, I think I’ll just settle right into this and, and enjoy it. And so the many branched and diverse, you know, sensory activity just converges back like a tortoise withdrawing its limbs into its shell. So you use a phrase in Bhagavad Gita, and one rest there.

Jim Tolles: Yeah. And I like that the food metaphor, because it is such a nourishing place. Yeah. And there’s a way that we’re very starved on a lot of levels. And one of the ways is our own love. And so when I start to talk about presence I, that to me is one this is where all the words start to be the same thing. When you’re talking about consciousness, love and truth, right? That becomes all the same verses in the space of duality, right? They’re clearly different things, you know, when somebody is helping somebody versus someone’s fighting somebody, right, that’s not what we call overt loving kindness of any kind. But stepping into that presence is this coming back to this, this deeper nourishment. And that nourishment is so important because it clarifies what we really need when we’re not allowing ourselves to be in that space. Because we’re already connected, we feel disconnected, because we draw our attention to what the puppy dogs are doing scattering all over the room. But when we come back that we realized we already are, and that’s a powerful thing, that’s the beautiful thing about spiritual truths are not really anything you have to do. They’re just reality. And so draw yourself back to this truth that you’re already connected to yourself, you’re already connected to everything is powerful nourishment for the rest of us. And then that clarifies how we want to live our lives. So this is what I call going inside out that we go inside to that nourishment. And then you look at the world, what do you really want? What do you really want in this moment?

Rick Archer: Here’s one that I think people will like, and be able to relate to. There’s a couple here that are sort of related. This one is the uncomfortable truth about being open hearted. Yeah. And we’ve kind of touched on this about how we’re all stressed out and closed, shut down. But um, and that that needs to be unwound and reversed, but um, let’s talk about it a little bit in terms of the heart here.

Jim Tolles: Yeah, I mean, often, when we think about the heart, we’re only thinking about feeling good. And so the concept of being open hearted is usually usually has a connotation that is going to feel good, that we’re just going to feel lots of love and connection to ourselves and to others. But part of the nature of this world right now is not happy. And being interconnected to the world means feeling pain. Now, part of being open hearted, that helps us is by noticing when we’re triggered when a pain inside of us is triggered, as opposed to blaming something else around us. And we’re very good at blaming the external world for internal feelings. And that’s a really important distinction to make, that we’re choosing most of our feelings, putting aside kind of the old stuff that needs to be processed. A lot of is just choice around how to respond to what somebody said or done or whatnot. And so, we go towards those triggers, and go towards that pain to process any deeper pain that is sitting down there, and to let go of these different beliefs. And as we get clearer, then it’s easier to be with people in pain. Is it fun? No. You know, it’s kind of like stepping outside without a jacket. When it’s like, you know, zero degrees. It’s like, you know, you feel that that’s part of being open heart. That’s the uncomfortable truth being open hearted. But when it doesn’t trigger anything inside, it’s not as difficult to be with.

Rick Archer: Yeah, and then you wrote another article, which is kind of related to that spiritual awakening and enhanced energy sensitivities. And about a month ago, I did an interview with a guy who wrote a book about highly sensitive people, which I think is, you know, fairly common among spiritual, aspirants, spiritually inclined people, they’re very sensitive. And there’s an interesting sort of conundrum in terms of becoming more sensitive without becoming more vulnerable. You know, it seems to involve somehow created developing an inner strength commensurate with our increased sensitivity. Otherwise, you know, our, we’d be like an open wound all the time figurative, figuratively speaking and just unable to function in the world because every little every little thing would disturb us.

Jim Tolles: Well, I would really come at that slightly differently because it to go to what you said around being like an open wound, actually, that to me is why we feel pain when we’re highly sent. sensitive is that there is some sort of level of woundedness, or something going on, that’s getting activated by what we’re feeling around us, because we’re around all kinds of energy all the time. Most of it doesn’t bother us. If it did, we couldn’t walk through a grocery store.

Rick Archer: Some Yeah, they tried to walk through the grocery store. And it’s like, they’re just being bombarded by every little subtle stimulus.

Jim Tolles: Yeah, that, to me usually suggests that there’s certain levels of work about themselves that they need to address that’s been just sitting there and it hasn’t been been dealt with. And coming back to the breath is one of the most powerful ways and tools to be open to be in that space of vulnerability. And I really don’t see vulnerability as bad. And the more we let go of fear, that sense of vulnerability is just openness. And somebody can shoot an arrow at you. And there’s, there’s nothing for the hit, it goes straight through. So whenever I’m talking to somebody is highly sensitive, I really emphasize that you have to do your work, the more you can go inside and let go of any of these hidden issues that may be going on, like the silent wounds we’ve mentioned earlier, the easier it is just be open. And the other side of that is that’s like opening our eyes to a new level. So highly sensitive, people also understand a lot of things that are going on around them better than other people. To me, that’s no different than having better eyesight, like, you know, I have to wear glasses, I don’t have the best eyes. But other people have better eyes than me. And so that’s just a new way of understanding life that can show you things that are going to be invisible to people can show you different relationships and possibilities and connections that you may want to have because you can set so clearly, you can show you different jobs that you don’t want to be in, because you can sense what’s actually going on versus what’s going on a job interview. So I want to emphasize that there are positive sides to this. Because a lot of times when you’re highly sensitive, all you can see is the difficult things because as we mentioned, there’s a lot of pain in this world and being open to it means that’s kind of what you’re feeling and the more common level.

Rick Archer: Yeah, that’s a good point. And I know a lot of people when they’ve learned to meditate or something and start practicing it, they become sensitized to things that once they, you know, they might have smoked cigarettes, for instance, and didn’t think anything of it. And all of a sudden, they begin to feel like this doesn’t very enjoyable look what this is doing to me. And so and so the naturally, the habit drops off because it becomes repugnant.

Jim Tolles: Yeah, they can feel the truth of what they’re doing themselves. So it is very normal for people as they let go of the ego. Ego, to me is a kind of barrier to life. And there’s real reasons we do that. So that’s why I never want to demonize it, it’s just like, it’s a function of trying to self protect, and a lot of regards, right, self protect into acquire, that’s usually its main functions. And so as we drop that wall, we have to get used to like, what’s going on around us, you know, so makes connections like these a lot easier. But it makes other things also more available to us. And some of that is pain. And that, of course helps us do more inner work. And so it can be kind of this funny catch 22. And I know I’ve experienced in many of my students have where you drop a layer and you feel more open, but now you’re feeling more issues that can like hit you in different ways. And so that, to me can be like a positive cycle, though, where you just keep learning how to drop and drops who are clear and clear.

Rick Archer: Yeah, and yet, the point I initially made, I think that ideally, as this happens, something rises up to counterbalance the the openness or the sensitivity. And you know, I’ve met people well, such as Omma, who has pictures over my shoulder here, who is one of the most perceptive people I’ve ever met, and one of the most open people in terms of feeling other people’s pain. And, you know, you’ll see her in tears if someone comes up to with some thing. So really feeling it. And yet, it’s sort of she’s kind of super fluid, it just passes through and isn’t held on to for a moment. It’s just like, experienced fully, and then on to the next experience.

Jim Tolles: Exactly, yeah. And another way to look at it too is this people get more sensitive, it’s kind of like getting a new radio station on your dial, but it’s playing simultaneously with the other ones. So it’s just you become accessible to these other we’ll call it frequencies. I don’t want to get into that too too much. But just that sense of like being able to pick up more information. And so like, you can imagine how much noise that is. So at first, I really also encourage people to be calm, just work through it. This is part of a transition as you learn to kind of control the dial better inside. So like, it’s been like that for me a lot where like if I’m going through a shift and I’m like walking through a grocery store, like oh, this is too many radio stations, but then a couple days pass and you know, I’ve kind of learned how to adjust the dial and I can be with it.

Rick Archer: Okay, so um, what else is can you think of anything we haven’t covered that you want to make sure to cover in this interview that you’re gonna kick yourself and half an hour if we don’t cover it.

Jim Tolles: I think it’s been a beautiful conversation, but I really like to keep coming back to appreciating that everybody has their own wisdom. That’s really what I work to do. So To help people find that own innate wisdom, because if you do that, as you open yourself up, you are changing the world around, you’re going to know a lot of people concerned about the direction of the United States world and how we’re engaging with life. And your inner work matters. It really does. And so when people go inside, and they process pain, they become role models for others, even if you don’t say anything. Like I really believe people are all actually sensitive. We’re just so used to Holy beach balls down and numbing ourselves and avoiding ourselves that we don’t realize how sensitive we are. So just having that openness, it touches people in everyday life touches people standing in the grocery line touches people in the other cars as you’re sitting in traffic. And that’s just a powerful thing. And it can’t be understated. I feel like we live in a culture. Once again, kind of going back to the hero metaphor, we’re always emphasizing what one person does in some sort of over the top way, rather than the beauty of collective inner work, and the change in the field of life of energy and connection. And the more we do that, when you’re highly sensitive, and everybody’s vibrating with love, you know, that you love being highly sensitive, that’s an amazing thing to be a part of, no one would have any problem with that at all.

Rick Archer: I’m glad you brought that up. I mean, you know, that poem by John Donne, no man is an island. And then he says later is not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee. We’re all interconnected. And people may or may not be aware of that. But there’s absolutely no rigid boundary around any one person that separates them from all other people. And so, you know, whatever we do to facilitate our own awakening or evolution, we’re, there’s a ripple effect that’s going out to to influence the whole society.

Jim Tolles: Absolutely. You know, it’s, it’s amazing, I’m sure there’s some cool mathematics that can be done about, you know, how few it actually takes before like, greater amplitude and greater change starts to happen. And I don’t know the math,

Rick Archer: well, I can give you some math, I mean, okay. In the heart, for instance, 1% of the cells are pacemaker cells, and they regulate the coordinated beating of all the other cells in the heart. Yeah. And in a laser, if the square root of 1% of the photons aligned with one another, coherently, it creates a phase transition in which all the other photons line up with them, and it becomes one as if one coherent beam of light one coherent photon, even though it’s many photons. And there are other examples like that, too, with magnetism and superfluidity. And, and other such principles, but there are a lot of examples in nature where a small number of things are, or units, if they achieve a sort of a coherence or synchrony trigger the rest of the system to do the same.

Jim Tolles: Yeah, yeah, I think that that’s a great level of inspiration. Because I think that also can encourage people in their own work that you know, what you do matters. And it doesn’t take that many of us to really start to have a larger impact in ways that we’ll never really know, I think it’s also important, like go the idea of what it should look like, because this life is vast, and there’s a lot of forces moving in it. And all we can really do is go within and do our best, face ourselves as best we can and find the supports. Because there is support, you know, there are some things in life that we have to do on our own. And that’s just how it is. But there are other things where we do need support. And I think that’s also a dance of like, knowing when to call in that extra support for whatever’s arising when you just have to go off and be with yourself and let it work itself through.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I think there’s another principle here that’s worth mentioning. And that is that the subtle is more powerful. And there are so many examples of that in nature. But, you know, I mean, it’s really important to do all the stuff on the manifest level that needs to be done in terms of environmental issues, and, you know, technological progress and things that can be done. But also, if we can, in addition to whatever we’re doing on on a more manifest level, if, if we’re learning to function from a more fundamental level than that it’s more pivotal, it’s more influential than just functioning on the surface. Yeah, so we do have, even if we’re just sort of, you know, living our own private life and you know, raising children and something not having much interaction with on any with any environmental or economic issues or anything like that we can be having quite a profound influence on the whole society, which we we may not be aware of,

Jim Tolles: well, we can’t emphasize the importance of raising children because that is the next

Rick Archer: generation to use that as an example of something trivialize that

Jim Tolles: that’s no I didn’t think he did. I think some people do actually. I think some people do trivialize it so well, I’m just a stay at home mom raising a couple kids like that is huge. Yeah, that that is changing the next generation, the next generation the world and how they’re going to interact with life. So some some of my parents students really get that it’s like, well, you know, the more I do my inner work, I can really help free my child Do another, even deeper level to live their life in any way that they want to. Because if we don’t, then just more of the same issues get passed on, it’s kind of like the same clog in the toilet in the family bathroom stays there, and it just gets shittier.

Rick Archer: Yeah, and they’ll grow up and be gone soon enough, you know. So you know that it’s a very important time when you can really deal with them and help them help to culture their lives.

Jim Tolles: Yeah. And to go back to the silence thing, there’s a way where it does start to manifest in action is this kind of like, moving forward? That and I’m definitely still experiencing starting to understand, and also still not understanding how it just moves me how it kind of like steps forward and says, Okay, this is the thing I’m going to do in life. And it’s a very powerful thing, as you’re mentioning, when that space of awareness comes forward, and you take action, to do something to be an activist or to raise children, or to just manage through guardian, right, there’s, there’s a quality of liveliness, and that that energy comes into the world through your action when we allow it.

Rick Archer: Good. Well, that might be a good note to end on. So thanks, Jim, it’s been a lot of fun talking to you.

Jim Tolles: Thank you very much. I really appreciate work. I mean, it’s just so important to have these conversations, and to add the internet in a very positive way to give people some other things to really sit with and support them. And it’s so beautiful that technology can bring us together like this.

Rick Archer: It really is, boy, I mean, when I first started using computers, it took several hours to download 250k, right? You couldn’t have done Skype or anything like that. We’re doing megabytes every minute. So it’s really a beautiful thing that you know, we’re able to do this and people around the world are able to watch it live. It’s 100 people watching right now, and you know, it’ll be there for probably long after we’re gone. Yeah, that’s great. Okay, well, thanks for that. So let’s tell us a bit about what you have to offer in terms of meeting with people and Skyping with people and all that.

Jim Tolles: Oh, sure. So I work with people one on one, one hour Skype sessions. And we just kind of come and sit and see what comes up. I’ve got a lot more information on my blog, which is spirit awakening process.com, where people can read about that. But it’s very intuitive things come up. Sometimes it’s intense. Sometimes there’s laughter, a lot of times there’s tears, because there are a lot of beach balls, who can often hold it down inside us that are going to bubble up. But it really is done with a space of deep love, confidentiality and connection. And it’s just wonderful to see the students who embrace that as a catalyzing point, go back for the next couple of weeks, do their own work and come back. And just the connections are beautiful. I mean, some of my students I’ve been working with for three years or more. And it’s just so amazing to watch them come into this liveliness. So I think that’s kind of the simplest way to talk about becoming more conscious as you’re coming more alive.

Rick Archer: Good. Okay, so I’ll be linking to your website from your page on batgap.com. And you’ve written a book, but I guess he wrote it so long ago that you’re not like real crazy about it or anything, right? It’s like,

Jim Tolles: everyday spirituality, cultivating awakening is really a great book, it helps people understand the whole of themselves. Definitely, it’s great for people who are starting their spiritual journey, or they need to kind of reevaluate, because sometimes we get stuck, just kind of learning in our heads. And we have ignored our heart and body. And so that, to me, is really a doorway sort of book to help you go deeper in certain areas. So somebody who has been meditating for 30 years might actually find it useful if they’ve not really engaged with their hearts. But as far as you know, where my expression is, you know, my latest blog posts are going to be closer to what I’m talking about. And I’m getting more interested about phases after healing, what is it like to have two healed legs and to run? Right, what is it like to really live from that space of clarity?

Rick Archer: Yeah, that that’s exciting to me, too. It’s like, I mean, every stage of the journey is significant. But I’m always intrigued with the potential of what awakening can, you know, actually be? And it’s fuller and fuller expressions, not only for individuals, but for society. I think it’s extremely exciting and has tremendous implications for our world.

Jim Tolles: Yeah, exactly.

Rick Archer: All right. Let me make a couple of closing remarks. General ones. You’ve been watching an interview, obviously, on Buddha at the Gas Pump. There have been well over 300 of them. And if you want to check out previous ones, go to batgap.com. And look at the past interviews menu. You’ll see what’s scheduled coming up, but under the future interviews menu. There’s an audio podcast of this if you’d like to subscribe to that. There’s a button there. There’s you can sign up to be notified by email each time a new one is posted. And you can also sign up, or you know, subscribe on YouTube and YouTube will notify each time and they want us posted. And a number of other things if you explore the menus. We appreciate people’s support. If you feel like supporting it in some way, there’s a Pay Pal button on the site. So thank you for listening or watching and we’ll see it for the next one. Thank you, Jim.

Jim Tolles: Thank you, Rick.