Rick Archer: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer. Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of conversations with spiritually Awakening people. We’ve done over 660 of them now, if this is new to you, and you’d like to check out previous ones, please go to batgap.com Bat gap and look under the past interviews menu. These programs this program is made possible through the support of appreciative listeners and viewers. If you appreciate it and would like to help support it, there are PayPal buttons on the website and a page which explains alternatives to PayPal. So my guest today is someone that I had on a couple of years ago, Isira she’s in Australia. Where are you in Australia, Isira?
Isira: I’m on the northern beaches, which is in New South Wales. Pretty close to Sydney.
Rick Archer: Okay, great. And I listened to my first interview with her last during the weekend, I thought, Wow, what a great conversation. It’s funny that we can have conversations like this, and totally forget about everything that was discussed, but I guess I can be excused because I’ve done 660 of them. But sometimes I go back and listen to these things. I think well, that was fantastic. So much interesting stuff came out. So I’m sure this one will be that like that too. But if you enjoy this one, consider listening to the first one as well. And we’ll try not to repeat ourselves. So here’s a short bio. A Isira is an awakened spiritual teacher who has been initiated in advanced spiritual practices and writes across a number of traditions, including Australian Aboriginal, yogic Indian, African shamanism and Tibetan Buddhist. When she was a young adult, Tibetan lamas recognized her as an important incarnation and traveled to Adelaide, Australia to bring her to the Himalayas to be ordained by His Holiness, the Dalai Lama. Isira is also honored as an Australian, indigenous elder and wisdom keeper. So I want to ask you a few questions about that paragraph, because I don’t think we talked about those in the first interview. So for instance, you were initiated in advanced spiritual practices and rights across a number of traditions. I want to mention each of these traditions and have you tell us a little bit about what those initiations entailed and what kind of practices you learned and what kind of effects those had. So let’s start with Australian Aboriginal.
Isira: Well, so we have Aboriginal heritage and our family. It was quite a fractured experience growing up because of the stolen generation, which essentially occurred as a result of colonialism, that our people were stolen from their lands, their country put into missions, and consequently, children born oftentimes mixed with a white parent, those children were also taken and given white names, and assimilated into the colonized culture.
Rick Archer: Yeah, this happened all over the world. You remember, Mauricio and Zia, of the SAND conference, the science and non-duality conference, they’re doing some kind of documentary now about that very phenomenon. They’re going to Canada to talk to the indigenous people there who were put in these tribal schools and ordered to have the Indian beaten out of them basically. Which is not a laughing matter. But in any case, and as you may know, the pope recently went to Canada to apologize for that. But anyway, I’ll let you continue. It’s it was really a crime. And I think today we’re going to be talking a lot about the resurgence or re enlivenment of indigenous wisdom around the world. So, okay, so it will relate to this.
Isira: Most definitely. And so, as a child growing up, there was a lot of confusion because I was very connected to my aboriginality and my spirit and my ancestors, I could hear my ancestors and I could see and understand our aboriginality physically as well. You know, I look at my uncle, I look at my brother and different relations and You know, but you know, trying to bring it up or deal with it, you know, but we’re Aboriginal and not to get kicked under the table and, you know, pretty well shut down. So I learned to shut that down from a young age. And I had to deal with a lot of the power of my spiritual connection internally, and with the guidance from my ancestors, but I also grew up with a strong connection to other people in the regions where I was growing up other Aboriginal people, and we would say other mob, or, you know, clans. And consequently, I went through a process and a series of rites of passage with different aunties and uncles and grandmothers. Ultimately, as I matured, I experienced greater and greater clarity of guidance from my ancestors, particularly when my grandfather passed over. And I wrote a little bit, a little bit about this in my autobiography, I didn’t disclose too much, but I did reference some things. And then I think it was three years after my, at least three years after my Nana had passed. My uncle, oh, hang on, that must have been even more use than that. Anyway, sorry. Sometimes I’m a little bit mixed up with the count of years. But anyway, my uncle decided to come forward and confess that our Nana had confessed to him on her, you know, close to parting of our Aboriginal heritage.
Rick Archer: Now, that means aunt or grandma, grandmother,
Isira: Nana being grandmother. Yeah. And so my cousin then did the research and started finding bits and pieces. And long story short, these pieces ended up matching the guidance I had been given by my ancestors of places to go and the experiences I had and reconnecting with cousins and other relations, it all turned out to be fact. And so, you know, this information came forward in our family after my autobiography had been published. And so that kind of created a bit of a turn of the tide in the family as well, because you know, that a lot of this stuff that I’d spoken about or proposed in earlier years, you know, then family are going. Okay, so she was on the money. Interesting, wasn’t just some fanciful imaginings.
Rick Archer: So, the stuff that you learned about your ancestor, you know, are you saying that it came to you kind of, psychically or in consciousness as opposed to being transmitted verbally by people.
Isira: initially, initially it was received, yes, by, you know, telepathy or psychically from, from the dreaming realms, what we would call the dreaming realms. For us as with most indigenous people around the world, we don’t experience a dense separation or fixation between the realms of spirit and form or between past, present and future. And that’s why our Aboriginal people refer to this as the dreaming because it is, it is all collectively here, vibrating as consciousness. And so I was receiving all of this information from those levels, I was hearing my, my great grandmother singing to me, I was hearing my great grandfather’s speaking to me. And when I ended up following their directions, and going back through our song lines, which are song lines are, tracks which relate to our cultural place of birth, our stories, our ancestry, and significant places, so sacred places. And when I arrived at these places, I then met relations and it was confirmed the things that I had received, including the language, I was hearing the language before connecting physically. So then, of course, after all the information came out, I undertook a much deeper process of reconnecting and I am very reconnected with some of my lineage on both sides of my family, maternal and paternal and I’ve gone through initiations of acknowledging and recognizing well the only word I can really use for that is the powers I have been recognized as a nuncurrie mubunweena. And that literally means a woman of power and healing spirit. And the capacity for prophecy, the capacity for vision between all the realms, etcetera. And consequently, having been recognized with those powers, I was taken through very specific initiations, which passed on wisdom and lore, very specific wisdom and lore, linked to my ancestral lineages. And the thing that I have observed having gone through that, with several different branches of my lineage, is that despite the variances between place, so country, different regions, and you know, the differences in cultural practices, the underlying lores are the same, pretty well, you know, like all around Australia, and then I began to see, well, these underlying lores are actually common to all indigenous people around the world. So that’s what I really connect with. Now, having gone through these rites of passage and initiation and feel is something to deeply celebrate and acknowledge for all people because it actually relates to, to all people, it doesn’t matter what our cultural background is,
Rick Archer: Are these underlying lores, something that can be verbalized? Or are they more like, lores of nature, or impulses of intelligence or something that are really fundamental, and would be hard to put in words?
Isira: Well, they can absolutely be put in words. And that’s really core to a lot of the framework of teaching that I give. And I pin that on a very distinct model so that it can be distilled down in very simple principles so that people can identify with it and then relate to it. And as you were saying, it’s also existing at multiple levels. But certainly we, you know, we can look at it as a framework that helps everyone to connect to that and start tapping into that as well.
Rick Archer: Okay, and we’ll be talking about that, I imagine when we talk about the four sacred pillars of life, that Okay, so we’ll wait a little bit on that, all right. And then another tradition, you got initiations in and practices was yogic Indian, in other words, that Indian or Hindu or Vedic tradition, and in what sense in what, what did you do there?
Isira: So, yes, practices of yoga, and the higher Tantric Yoga. So I’m not talking, you know, the tantric yoga which is focused at the sexual interactive level. I’m talking Tantric Yoga, the unions of all of the vessels physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally, and through a range of interactions with priests, high priests and shamans. And that was in India and the Himalayas, as well as in Bali. I did a lot of work in Bali, over a period of 20 years, and was considered a high initiate or high priestess in that work as well.
Rick Archer: Okay. And then African shamanism.
Isira: Hmm, that that’s been a very interesting aspect to the journey. A very loved Zulu Shaman Credo Mutwah, who did a lot of work around the world, I underwent some initiations with him on the physical level and the astral level. Oh, and by the way, often times initiation happens on both of those levels. For some people, they do get initiations more so on the astral level if they haven’t been able to connect physically, but I have had both. So at the ground level, very physical passages of Rites and then also at the astral level.
Rick Archer: Okay and then finally, Tibetan Buddhists. And in your little bio, I mentioned that some Tibetan lamas came to Australia to take you back to the Himalayas. So I think you’ve told that story to some extent in your first interview, but how did they find out about you and where you were all that stuff?
Isira: So from a very young age as well as hearing and communicating with my ancestors, I was very active on the astral levels, I was sitting with a lot of Yogis and Masters and journeying through rituals on those other levels. And in particular, there were some Tibetan masters who were always present, two in particular. And so we’d be sitting in these circles and they’d both be there and I had constant ongoing communication. Some people just call it dreams. But for me, it was as real as we’re sitting here having this conversation,
Rick Archer: was it happening while your physical body was sleeping? Or were you in wakeful meditative state?
Isira: Mostly when the physical body was sleeping, but it would also occur when I was in a meditative state, or sometimes I would just be sitting up in a yogic posture, like in lotus posture on the end of the bed, and I would be having these interactions. And, of course, my family thought perhaps, you know, things were a little bit, not so right for a while.
Rick Archer: You were telling them about this.
Isira: I tried, but, you know, same as me saying, Oh, but we’re Aboriginal, I was getting shut down, you know, or, you know, just, it’s, you just got to overactive imagination, or maybe something’s not quite right with you. But anyway, you know, this progressed, and it became more and more intense, lucid, and potent to the point that by the time I was around 18 years old, I was then visited by this particular Lama. And he said to me, in this visitation, I’m asking you to be prepared, I’m coming to get you. And I thought, hmm Okay, what does? What does that mean? It’s gonna take me on some really big astral trip, or, like, what’s, what’s about to happen next. And a series of events occurred where my mother by this time, certain events, catalyzed her search because she started realizing hang on this stuff going on with my daughter is very real. And she went into some kind of, you know, personal spiritual crisis seeking thing and through a friend of hers. After hearing all about my visions and experiences, she said, Oh, you’ve got to go to Buddha house. And as soon as she said, that was like a bolt of lightning went through me. And in those days, we had physical telephone books, you know, we didn’t have all digital stuff. So got the phone book, and the page it opened up on literally was Buddha house. So I rang this place, and I’m finding myself talking to this monk. I didn’t even know what monks were. I had no idea. I’m just having all these experiences. And he says, Oh, you must come in, you must come in. Well, he didn’t have to twist my arm. I’m like, Okay, I’m coming in. So I go into this Buddhist center, and, and I’m telling him everything that had been happening, and he’s just nodding, and he’s saying, Well, yes, yes, the lamas are coming. And he’s saying, yes, the two lamas they’re coming, and I’m thinking, Okay, it’s, you know, and they’re due to arrive in two weeks that one was coming one week before the other. Well, the first lama arrived, and it was the laughing lama. This lama was always in the circle. And he was the one always with the biggest cheekiest smile, and we were always laughing. And we looked at each other and laughed, and hugged. So there he was in the physical. There was no longer this astral experience. And, and he, you know, took a hold of me and said, You know, it’s all okay. Lama is coming, Lama is coming. So the next week, the lama turned up the central one that I was really astral traveling with a lot. He would take me to a cave, which I knew as my cave, from a previous incarnation, I was having these overlaps of past life present lives. Anyway, he turned up, and we just looked at each other. And I just cried and cried. I just fell into his arms because I finally felt, here is my family here are the people who know me, who understand me? I’m not crazy. This is not crazy. This is not unreal. You know, it was I just cried. And so I underwent a process of preparation, and that was in Adelaide. And then we started traveling, there was some other events that were scheduled for Australia and then I was to travel back with lama to Nepal and then the Himalayas and India and to go through was a series of initiations and ultimately to end up being in personal consultation and engagement with His Holiness Dalai Lama, I was appointed as a scria for the lamas again, it’s, again, because of that acknowledgement, the recognition of the spiritual powers, they knew I could see on all these other levels. And so I was appointed to consult with Lamas all around the region to assess their health or to assess, you know, circumstances and situation to give insight and to give psychic forecast as well. And then I was fully ordained and initiated by His Holiness. And all the while this was happening. My mother had continued visiting the center in Adelaide and was told by one of the women that yes, the lamas had known about your daughter when she would be born, where she would be born. And when she should be collected.
Rick Archer: Hmm Interesting
Isira: Then they came to take me back.
Rick Archer: So how long did you stay over there?
Isira: That was for a year at that time. Was that a year at that time? All up? I spent three years with several travels
Rick Archer: In chunks?
Isira: Yes, yeah. And then a year stretch. And a six months in complete, isolated retreat as well. So went through passages like that specific initiation as well.
Rick Archer: Interesting. Well, I’m sure that we could spend our whole time talking just about that unpacking it, but we’re not going to do that, that gives people a taste. And I think it’s, it’s useful to go through information like that when talking to somebody who is a teacher, because one wonders, it’s like, yeah, we go to see a doctor, okay, like, where did you go to medical school? You know, what did you study? You want to know that about the person’s credentials, so to speak. Good. And again, you know, it could be elaborated, I’m sure people can read more elaboration in your book or in talks you’ve given or something. Okay, so you speak of? Is there anything else you’d like to say before we go on?
Isira: No, I’m just happy to go. I’m just so happy having this conversation with you, Rick.
Rick Archer: Okay, good. You use the word, the phrase holistic awakening, which I like a lot. I’ve been a fan of the word holistic since the 1970s. And in your little newsletter, or email you sent out, you said that you in this interview, we’re going to do what we’re doing right now you’re going to share how to move out of the mind into a lived experience in which the sacred is restored to each moment of our day to day life. I was actually going to mention that more in the beginning, just to say, here’s what we’re going to talk about today. So let’s see here. Okay. So, you know, many spiritual teachers these days, are talking about integrated awakening and embodied awakening. And, to an extent that’s a reaction to what preceded it, which was people having a kind of disembodied, or fragmented awakening. You know, the philosopher Ken Wilber talks about lines of development and how we have all various faculties and facets of our makeup and, and the each of them could be considered a line of development. And, you know, it’s possible for certain lines to get way out of sync with other lines and resulting in a kind of a lopsided development. And, you know, a number of spiritual teachers realized that that was taking place, and started to focus more emphasize on the integrated, holistic type of awakening. And I still think a lot of work needs to be done in that area, because I still think there’s a lot of lopsidedness out there. But anyway, is that sort of along the lines of what you’re talking about? Or would you distinguish what you’re saying in some way from that?
Isira: Yes, most definitely. I would agree that, as you just pointed out, a lot of our spiritual development in our modern cultures is lopsided and particularly siloed. Because we, we’ve taken a lot from the Eastern traditions, particularly, which have brought meditation into the popular personal development culture, which is fantastic. And of course, you know, the primary focus has been on the self, the true self or consciousness. And, of course, that’s very important. It’s been serving a part of our process and our journey, understandably, and there’s been an enormous amount to gain from that. And there’s also incredible limitation and potential harm or problems that arise from a siloed approach as well. So if we look further back deeper into those original traditions, yogic training and rites of passage that utilize meditation as a power to tap into consciousness, we see that there was a much longer more complex process of development. And it was established on a much firmer, broader foundation. So there was a lot of preparation that was involved. And all the same, the focus oftentimes has been in a very exclusive environment, and has been still dissociated from the collective manifest experience of the world. Of course. You know, we’ve been told there’s a purpose to that is to withdraw from your senses so that you can disentangle from the identifications, etc., etc., yes, there’s some benefit. But that’s not the end goal. That’s not actually liberation. That’s just a cleansing, that’s just a purification process. In fact, that’s just one little part of the beginning of preparing for what awakening is really about. And so, having gone through an incredible spectrum of experiences, spiritually, in, in training spiritually, as well as just my own lived experience, I’ve observed and witnessed a very common pattern in our modern spiritual approach. And that is, the primary focus is on the person, the human, the individual, but I need peace, I am in conflict, I want liberation. I want to awaken to oneness to truth, I want to transcend, I want to transcend this I but it’s still the I, it’s still the focus on the me that is determining this, it’s still the sponsoring, thought, the motivator. And so as I continued growing through my experiences, and by the way, I gave a huge period of teachings, which really concentrated on consciousness as well. I was also endeavoring to give people this spectrum of experience that is holistic, which I bring much more into a grounding focus now, as a result of my Aboriginal heritage, and drawing on the indigenous wisdom. Why is because our modern approach being focused on the soul or the self, or consciousness is missing out on so many elements and aspects of the play in the manifestation of consciousness, through which we are created, and through which we develop. So when I look at indigenous culture, and I look at my heritage, and if we all look at the way we come into existence, we’ll see a common sequence of lores and patterns. First, we don’t just land here. We emerge from creation; we emerge from Earth from nature. You know, we’ve all heard this, but how many of us are really, truly connected with this truth? You know, it’s oftentimes used as lip service, oh from Earth, we come to earth we return or, you know. yes and what does that really mean? If we breathe down into our body, and we breathe down into the earth, and we then look up from inside Earth, we actually see that we’re all a part of earth. We’re one breathing organism. And so, our culture our people recognize this as the first point of manifestation of creation, the emergence of nature of creation. The second point is
Rick Archer: Dust to dust, Okay, are you starting to go through the four points?
Isira: Oh, well, I can
Rick Archer: Is that what you mean by second point, I want to make sure that we delve deeply into each thing as we as we go through it. Let me just come back at you for a minute, about some of the things you just said. Firstly, you know, there’s the whole kind of manifestation type teachings, like the secret and, you know, fulfill your desires, be a better person, be happier, have better relationships, you know, really sort of spiffing up the individuality as much as possible. And then there are those who critique that who say, you know, there’s no end to that, you can spiff it up until your dying day, but you’re never going to realize your true nature. And so they said, Forget about all that. Let’s just dive deep. And, you know, realize who you ultimately are, which is, you’re not even a person, you’re not an individual, you know, universal consciousness. But then there’s those who kind of take refuge in that or in a concept of that, and you use the word conceptual here, and dismiss everything else as unimportant or as illusory. You know, okay, so you’re not a person, and you don’t have freewill. And the world is an illusion, and everything is ultimately meaningless, and so on. And so and so then people get stuck in that I interviewed a woman about a month ago, named Jessica Eve, and she went deep into that world and ended up being very disembodied, and nihilistic and depressed, and, and she, she’s helping other people get out of it now. And she says, you know, people, people literally become suicidal, because life loses its juice, you know, its meaning and, and, you know, they, they can’t even relate to their children. And so I don’t want to belabor this, but So essentially, because that, and I could go on, but there are a number of things where people emphasize a number of approaches where people emphasize a certain aspect of it, to generally to the exclusion of others. Other aspects, you know, like, the manifestation thing might exclude the universality thing. And the universality thing excludes the relative or, and then their devotional practices, which exclude the intellect, and vice versa, and so on, and so forth. And so what I, what I gather that you’re aiming at, is something which is by again, the word holistic, which is a simultaneous development of all facets of life.
Isira: Ha spiffing it up That’s right. Thank you for bringing it back to that. And I just want to acknowledge the point you made about did you say Jessica Eve,
Rick Archer: Jessica Eve yeah here on BatGap just about a month ago,
Isira: Right. And this conversation revolving around the dangers or complex that can arise out of narrow and very, Neo Advaita? Which is it’s kind of like a, I don’t know, it’s a modernized stream of Advaita Vedanta missing a lot of the, you know, the foundations and the preparation.
Rick Archer: Yeah, exactly. You mentioned, you mentioned preparation, and they just, they just come out and say, you’re already enlightened, you’re done. You don’t need practices, just realize that and, you know, tick that off your bucket list.
Isira: I think the key point you made is that a lot of these do become, you know, these variations as you, you reference, become fixated to the exclusion of other aspects. And I, that was my observation throughout my life on my journey and my spiritual experiences is that it seems to be the human inclination to become fixated. And to seek a point of reference that oh, now I can relate to this. So I’m going to just step right inside this box, and I’ll be comfortable and safe.
Rick Archer: Yeah. And I think it’s because our awareness is normally constricted, you know, as human beings who aren’t fully realized. It’s we focus on boundaries, and we lose the boundless in the process, like movie screen analogy. There’s images playing on the screen, we focus on specific images and lose the screen. Go ahead and take it from there.
Isira: Yeah. So what I really wanted to help people with precisely as you said is, you know, to recognize these co-occurring streams of who and what we are and how we develop, and the closest thing I could come to in supporting that was in recognizing my own heritage, my own cultural heritage and that of indigenous lore and wisdom. And as I mentioned briefly before, if we look at it really these principles are underpinning every indigenous culture around the world. And so why I refer to this is because just as you said, it’s our inclination to focus on the boundaries, and indeed, to want the boundaries and maybe lose sight of the bigger picture, but at the same time, we crave the bigger picture. And so we’re at risk of going, either Oh, well, if none of this is real, anyway, I am not my mind. You know, oh, I am already that. Or we become absolutely obsessively attached to a certain way. And the cultural framework or the process framework I was referring to, you asked, is it something that can be defined with, you know, our intellectual, or thoughts, or is it just energetic? Yeah, verbalized. We can have a framework. And the beautiful thing about this framework is, it allows for that relationship between the really grounded the manifest experience, and the transcendent experience as well. So it allows for all of that to come together, and be encountered, and to grow and nurture that in an order that matches natural lore. So if we look at our human experience, there are natural lores to how we come into form, how we manifest how we become aware, how we become more aware, how we nurture and sustain our awareness and connectivity, how we sustain and nurture our unique individuality, but also our inclusivity with all other life, so there are ways we can nurture that. And I really believe that is the greatest gift, indigenous wisdom has to offer the world today, that we really have enormous possibility on hand, not to go back to the old ways, but to utilize the principles and the wisdom to incorporate that into our lived experience now.
Rick Archer: So you’re saying that indigenous wisdom, it’s the most precious thing it can offer is to enable us to incorporate boundaries and boundless and integrate them together and live both? Or you could say individual and universal, if you want to use. So is that does that some summarize what you just said?
Isira: Yes, there’s that. And that it is how we can address our challenges are crises, the reason we are in crises, it is how we can tap into our greatest creative possibility, how we can find true cooperation and unity. It is how we can really holistically awaken.
Rick Archer: So what if somebody lives in Manhattan or Hong Kong or New Delhi or someplace like that? You know, they’re in a very unnatural urban setting. Are they at a disadvantage in terms of accessing indigenous wisdom?
Isira: Not at all. Not at all. And perhaps to help us segway into answering that more fully, I’ll just give a brief overview of what I’m referring to by the four sacred pillars, and why I’m referencing that as a map that we can all use. So just going back one little step to the point we address which is most of our approach to this point in our modern spiritual development has been quite siloed and focused on the me the individual, and we’d agree on that, whether it’s been Advaita Vedanta, or the manifestation crew or any of the paths. Typically, it’s the me sponsoring it. So it’s very siloed on the self. Whereas holistic awakening, and the four sacred pillars, flips that on its head. It says, wait on a moment. The truth really is that we’re not a separate individual me. So what is the model that naturally reflects that and carries us through that experience, supports and nurtures that experience as we develop. So rather than starting with the self, the individual we then start with our connection to nature to country. So the four pillars, are not just the self, we come back to number one being, nature and country, number two being, kinship or relationship between all living things, things. Number three being the self, the soul, the spirit, and number four being the natural lores, the cosmos. And here’s why. I started to probably prematurely dive into that a bit before. If we look at the natural lores, of what we are a creation of consciousness, we emerge from creation. We are Earth, children, creatures. And we’re a product of her. Secondly, we are born through our parents, our family. And in indigenous culture, we know that all the trees, all the rocks, all the rivers, the waterways, the insects, everything that is surrounding us has been contributing to those life forces of our people to then come together to bring in a new soul. And so kinship is not exclusive to just our parents and our siblings, or aunts, and uncles. It’s inclusive of all of the living beings, all the elements, you think about it when we are born, we’re in an oceanic state where we’re not a separate me yet we don’t know our individuality we’re actually a part of our parents, a part of the whole environment. So that’s our, our first two steps into manifesting as consciousness, we then grow and start to separate out and recognize our unique individuality, and start to deepen into that experience to realize, oh, wait on a moment, even though I’m separate, we’re actually all still of the same stuff. We’re all made of the same stuff of spirit of lifeforce of energy. And that then points to all the overarching natural lores, which are true to every single one of us, it doesn’t matter if you’re living in Manhattan, or in Singapore, those lores are fundamental to every single one of us. So even if you are living in an apartment block, how does that apartment block exist? How was it made? Where are you sitting, you’re still sitting on Earth. And even if there’s only one tree and in your neighborhood, you can still reconnect to that tree, you can still recognize the earth beneath your feet, you can still open your eyes and look up at the sky and recognize, you know, we’re part of this one living breathing organism called Earth. So, a bit like building a fire. If we try and start a fire with a wet soggy log, and we don’t acknowledge or recognize all the other pieces that builds a fire, you might have some Flint, a spark of an idea, the concept, you tried to spark it off on this soggy, wet log, and what happens, it doesn’t get very far. It smolders. But you prepare the ground, you make a nice basin with enough air and breaths in that ground, you then bring to it little bits of kindling, just start with the small little bits, and then a few bigger bits. And you wait for the logs to dry out. And then you put the logs there. And then you spark that concept and before long, you’ve got a blazing fire. So in the same way, if we return to the natural lores of how we exist, it’s no longer an effort to be connected, to be conscious to be present, it’s no longer an effort to realize the interconnectivity of every living thing. Because when you take your shoes off, you stand barefoot on the earth. Or you sit and you take your awareness deeply into the connection with earth and you do that often enough. Naturally you start to feel oh the trees are connected to me, Oh, the roots are under my feet, oh the birds are a part of this environment. Naturally, that starts to wake up and Earth herself. Every living thing is expressing and singing intelligence into us. And we’re only going to be able to hear that if we connect back with it. But when we do we have access to a far greater source of wisdom and intelligence than we can ever acquire from our individual siloed human experience. So, from that naturally, then we build the relationship of interconnectivity with every other living thing with our family, we have a very different level and quality of relationships from that place, because it’s, it’s no longer conceptual, it’s tangible, it’s visceral, it’s felt, it’s emerging from our own experience, then we feel at peace with our own soul, we, we already start to have a shift of energy physiologically. And, look, a lot of the masters and teachers will speak to this point that awareness, in essence is actually a science consciousness being conscious meditating is a science, it is a physiological state. So we’re connected with Earth, we plug into that physiological state, multiplied, maximum, multiplied, compared to isolating ourselves, and just sitting in a temple. I’m not saying there’s no benefit in that I’m not saying we can’t reach, you know, beautiful, incredible realizations, what I’m saying is coming back to your point that’s incredibly lopsided. So if we don’t have this connectivity, connection with nature, all around us, kinship, our soul, and the natural lores, the cosmos, we’re missing the greater picture. And we’re not going to have the right foundations for our development. So many people end up end up in psychosis, because they don’t have those foundations.
Rick Archer: So if a person were to work with you, do they proceed through these four steps, nature, relationships, self, Cosmos sequentially, or simultaneously?
Isira: Well, it can actually be both. And in essence, it is both anyway. Because even if you put your attention immediately on nature, what happens is, within that experience, there is a natural unfolding of encounters and perceptions already, because once we sit deeply in connection with Earth, our whole field becomes spatial. We become aware of the rocks, the insects, the trees. So ah, now we’re coming into kinship, our awareness expands, we become aware of the people around us, not just our family, ah, we feel more deeply seated in our soul. Because when we’re in that open state of awareness, we’re in love, we connect more deeply in love. And once we’re in that state, we see and understand the relationship between all things you don’t, you don’t have to make it happen. So yes, it can be sequential, and simultaneous. And I’ll do that deliberately. Because most often, people really do appreciate steps to follow. And it’s also how we learn and develop as children. So if we learn what the beginning point of connection and existence is, then we’ve got a really strong foundation, and it’s easy to step off from there,
Rick Archer: I imagine different people have these different facets, develop to different degrees. So for instance, someone might be a, have a job as a park ranger, and they spend all their time out in nature, or they’re really into camping and hiking and mountain climbing and, you know, outdoor sports or something like that. And, but then their relationships suck, or, you know, Oh, whatever. So, or maybe some people are in a very happy relationship, but they never get out of the city and into nature, or, you know, or somebody, you know, might be an astronomer, and they’re really into understanding the cosmos and studying it, but they’re rather deficient in all these other levels, other areas? Is that kind of relevant to what you’re saying? And are you are you saying that we really need to, you know, get everything balanced? And, you know, if we’re deficient in certain areas that address those deficiencies?
Isira: Most definitely. Because crises is a state of imbalance, isn’t it? Yeah. No matter how small or big that crises is to us as individuals, it’s telling us something is not in balance. And if we look at the world today, we can come right back to where our crisis began. And it began with our dispossession, our disconnection from nature. The reason we’re all seeking spirit and self is because we’re disconnected is because we feel deficient. So if we bring ourselves back into balance, like you say, some people might already have a strong relationship with nature, or maybe they’re looking at it only from a certain angle, some people might have a strong connection in relationship and, and have a fear of nature, etc.
Rick Archer: Yeah.
Isira: So what I am proposing is precisely that that holistic awakening is about a balanced and inclusive and encompassing approach. It is about us understanding the relationship in all these primary elements of our life. And the relationship between the seen and the unseen. And so, this acts then as a map that a person can say, hmm, yeah, okay. I’ve been so focused on my relationships, and, and I haven’t gone and sat with Earth, I don’t feel my connection with her, Oh, okay, I’m gonna give some, some energy to that. Or, you know, they might be just focused on the materialistic path, and have forgotten the value of deeper meaning in interpersonal relationships between all living things, etc. So, yes,
Rick Archer: Interesting. In my own life, I, you know, I spend a couple hours walking in the woods every day or skiing in the woods, if we have snow, I spend a couple hours meditating. I love to contemplate the cosmos, I have like, desktop background pictures on my computer of galaxies and stuff that I look at every day. And, you know, and then relationships, my wife, my friends. And all these people I talk to like you. So maybe I’m doing okay, by your, by your measurements?
Isira: I would say, yes. You’re doing very okay. And I guess my question and invitation is, how can we expand and improve on that?
Rick Archer: Yeah, all four of them could be deeper, richer, you know,
Isira: exactly. And, and I guess, as we go more deeply into it, we discover other layers and ways of connecting that open our eyes in ways we never imagined possible. And that’s one of the things I’ve seen happen for people who go through the deeper programs with me, and I realize a lot of people who are listening in or watching won’t necessarily be able to attend those but, hey, maybe that’s some inspiration for you that one day, you know, that can be a goal that you come and join in an immersive program. Because everyone who goes through those immersive programs with me, they come out going, wow, wow, I, I am never going to have the same relationship with myself, or others or life ever again, it is completely new and expanded and different to what they ever imagined was possible.
Rick Archer: How long are your immersive programs?
Isira: Well, it depends. It might be, you know, a day immersive program, or it might be a two day or three day or I also do like a five day retreat.
Rick Archer: If you’re gonna fly to Australia, from here it better be longer.
Isira: Yeah, if you fly to Australia, you book in for the five day retreat. So usually I would do an immersive retreat, where it’s a reconnection and sacred living, conscious awakening. Somewhere, you know, local, we’ve got a great retreat venue we work with, and then I also do pilgrimage. And so I take people on a song line journey, and that is going to sacred places and sacred country, as well. Which is profound.
Rick Archer: Yeah, because I thinking you can’t even get over jetlag in five days. So I mean, you yourself did a six month thing in India, and I’ve done six month things and in Europe and, and so on, it takes a while to really settle in.
Isira: Yeah, yeah, for sure. But people do it. You know, I have people turning up from all around the world who come for the five day programs or pilgrimage and, you know, they’re, well, they’re very happy campers.
Rick Archer: That’s good. Here in the States. I’m sure they have something like that over there, too. They have these programs for kids who live in Harlem and Harlem is a part of Manhattan. And they’ll take them out to the Catskills which are some mountains north of New York City. And it’s like you know, it’s like a summer camp. And but a lot of these have never been out of the city. And so they go there and they swim and they ride horses, and they, you know, play in the woods and it’s very restorative and beneficial for them.
Isira: Absolutely. I guess one thing I want to comment on is that oftentimes, the perception about utilizing this relationship with earth is somewhat dumbed down a bit, we just think of it as this oh well, that’s nice, let’s, let’s go out into nature and have a lovely little experience. And what I really hope to bring to people is something that is not about going out to nature and just having a brief little scenario that you go there, and then oh, that’s done and you go back to your life, but rather that you are connected in a way that will continue with you forever. And that you will keep building on that experience, every moment into the future.
Rick Archer: Yeah even if you have to live in a city.
Isira: Exactly. And even if you live in the city, as I briefly mentioned before, there’s ways of developing that connection with Earth. So it’s really important, people don’t feel that it’s out of their reach, and that it’s somehow exclusive to, you know, the lucky few that live closer to nature. As we’re all a part of it.
Rick Archer: Although I think if we’re talking ideal, to me, an ideal world would not have these huge, noisy cities.
Isira: Oh 100%
Rick Archer: Yeah, you do see artists renderings of what cities of the future might be like with all kinds of trees, and even on the buildings, there’s plants hanging off them and they become much more verdant and, and healthy looking. And there are people who are working towards that kind of thing, but it does seem very unnatural to cram 20 million people into a small area, and to be dependent on shipping everything in for their sustenance and so on. Unnatural.
Isira: Precisely, precisely and largely this is because of our still very dominant cultural mindset on the planet being consumerism, and that we are over consuming, it is not sustainable. And as long as we do, wherever there is overconsumption, there is under supply on the opposite side. And cities and concrete masses are a strange mix of the two. You know, it’s both a manifestation of greed and overconsumption, and a diminishment of true life. Especially for many, many people living in slums.
Rick Archer: Yeah, I’m thinking of the subtle aspect of it, you know, Findhorn in Scotland, where David Spangler and other people have this ability to see the nature spirits and the devas, and, and all these things. I don’t perceive those things myself, but I imagine that in a, in a rural setting, if one had that kind of perception, which I presume you do, that one would see those little subtle beings in much greater abundance than in some slum or some, you know, intense industrial place.
Isira: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And that’s very common to indigenous culture as well. And that ability coincides with a depth of connection with country with nature, with other living beings, with our soul and with the cosmic lores. So it all coincides.
Rick Archer: Yeah, and as I understand that, these subtle beings play a vital role in the functioning of nature and functioning of the world. And that if we were if we humans structure an environment which is inhospitable to them, then there’s a kind of a deadness to the, to the atmosphere which must influence those who live there negatively.
Isira: Most definitely. And, I mean, this is why indigenous cultures do suffer so much when dispossessed it is because that wound is still very fresh and very raw and there’s still the awareness of what is, when we live in natural order, you know, when we live in accord with the natural laws, so we’re still aware of that and there’s incredible grief and loss and disconnection at multiple levels, we can also look at subtle elements as well, such as the ions, the ionic balance of an environment, negative ions compared to the positive ions, and that in a healthy environment, we would have one positive ion to, like 100,000, negative ions, whereas in cities, we’re having the complete reverse and multiplied exponentially. So we’re having, you know, hundreds of 1000s of positive ions with one negative ion, which diminishes the life force field drastically.
Rick Archer: Right the negative ones are good. Like around the waterfall, there’d be a lot of negative ions here in North America, you know, the indigenous people have it pretty rough. I mean, there’s a lot of alcoholism and crime and violence and poverty and disease. I mean, there that that population was hit very hard by COVID, compared to the general population, much harder than the general population. Is it that way in Australia, too.
Isira: It is. And that’s a direct reflection of how fresh the wounds are, how fresh the trauma is,
Rick Archer: Right
Isira: Because alcoholism, violence is all an externalization of unresolved trauma. Yeah, and it’s intergenerational. So as long as that trauma is not addressed, people seek to suppress it or throw it off. So violence is an act of trying to throw it off. And alcoholism, drug addiction, crime etc. Is, is trying to bury it trying to, you know, distract from it.
Rick Archer: Yeah. I was a student of Marshy, Mahesh Yogi back in the day. And he made a big deal out of the importance of somehow the all the indigenous cultures of the world being resuscitated, you know, and being re enlivened. He felt like the world couldn’t get enlightened unless that happened. And that they played a vital, vital role in enlivening and supporting, we could say, the natural lore or the lores of nature. And so you’re speaking of them in terms of their, their wisdom, but I think he would have concurred with that. But he was also just saying their very existence needs to be revived, in order for humanity to flourish.
Isira: Absolutely. And as he was speaking, that I was just feeling such a depth of gratitude for you to voice that, for it to be spoken out and acknowledged. I recognize this as well. Our people, our culture, recognize this as well. And so to speak to those two aspects. One, yes. Because our people, are wisdom keepers, we like my ancestors, we lived for 50- 60,000 years sustainably, our people were awakefully living. Our people were consciously existing, and in a holistic way. So from that perspective, the wisdom, the depth of knowledge that is available to address the imbalances that are happening in the world is extraordinary, and must be resourced. Secondly, because our indigenous peoples still carry that, in the forefront of awareness. It’s vibrating in our cells in our whole being. We are vibrationally living it. So we’re like tuning forks. And I think that speaks to the second point, that you refer to that it’s not just about the knowledge, the mind or the wisdom, it’s about the vibration that indigenous people hold and carry. And that happens, not just through their being, like I say they’re like tuning forks, but it happens through the very culture, story, song, dance, ritual. These things are all vibrating, creating an energy field of awakened activity and interconnectivity. We know everything is vibrational, right. We know that awakening is actually a process of realigning ourselves in frequency to a more spatial centered state of awareness, so we directly consciously experience that oneness the field of oneness. That’s a vibrational state. So why I said before you know, meditation is a science, because it’s a physiological state, if we get into the right brainwave state, we get into that enlightened self. But the key is, can we integrate it? Can we embody it? And so that’s why we need the holistic map. And so if we understand everything is vibrational, then our indigenous people become an incredible player in our process of awakening humanity as a whole, and healing humanity as a whole.
Rick Archer: Yeah, let’s dwell on this a little bit more, I like the tuning fork. Example. You can also think of it as transmitters. You know, some people say that there’s Yogi’s in the Himalayas, who are just, you know, in seclusion, but they’re transmitting this influence that is keeping the world from blowing itself up, things like that. So, I guess another way of putting this is that, here’s the here’s Let me see how this comes out. That indigenous people have the potential to attune themselves to the natural lores of the land in which they live more readily than people who are estranged from traditional cultures. And in doing that, they have the potential to become transmitters of the enliven in value of natural lore, for their surroundings and for the world. And if people like this, around the world do this, it would be just a real big engine on the train for progress of humanity. How’s that sound
Isira: That sounds awesome? I agree. 100%. And I might even say, not just transmitters, but transceivers. Yeah. Because of that capacity to be so plugged in and to receive all of the information of all of the realms and the lifeforce,
Rick Archer: what is a transducer is somehow thinking of something that, you know, there’s something passes through it, and then out from it to the environment, maybe a transmitter is that, but there might be a better word.
Isira: That’s why I said transceiver
Rick Archer: Oh conduit that’s a good word.
Isira: There you go. Conduit Yeah, yeah. Precisely. And so that’s why I referenced you know, the part at play, which is song, story dance ritual. So our people have known that consciously. It wasn’t just some, you know, fanciful story or concept that people have known it for 10s of 1000s of years and lived within it, and functioned within it and nurtured it. And, you know, we were very aware that how creation came into existence, or comes into existence is, through sound everything is sound frequency. Yeah. So, what we speak plays a part in that every single word we utter now, is carrying a vibration that is influencing the tapestry, surrounding us, on and on and on and on and on. These words we’ve spoken are traveling on forever. And so if we are plugged in, aligned with a very psyche of earth, of nature, and the subtle realms that were plugged in with this, within vibrating with the soul, heart of creation, and the cosmos, and our song, and our words are in absolute attunement, and synchronicity with that, you imagine the vibrational field that is vibrating out rippling through everything as a result of that.
Rick Archer: Yeah, that’s really good. Now, here’s a related point. I mentioned Marshy, earlier and what he was saying about the indigenous cultures. Another thing he emphasized that at times was that the negative influence of imprisoning millions of people. I mean, here in the United States, I think we have a higher per capita rate of imprisonment than any other country in the world. I think there are at least 2 million people in state and federal prisons. And he felt that those were kind of like, obviously, these ideas were not unique to him. I’m just mentioning him because he was my teacher. But he felt that those were like these, just as we’re speaking of positive transmitters. They were like negative transmitters. There were these concentrated focal points of stress and tension and fear and anger and so on frustration, and they radiated an influence out to society. So, you know, one of his interests was in somehow, you know, having, I mean, he didn’t do too much about it, but some kind of prison reform so that people could be truly rehabilitated. And, you know, shift their influence from negative to positive. And it’s a tall order, because it’s a huge problem. But I think ultimately, if society is to be transformed, that’s going to have to be part of it.
Isira: I agree. I’ve spoken to this as well. And that if a person is committing a crime, it is it is born of some unresolved wound. Some unresolved trauma. And that is the thing to address to remedy that.
Rick Archer: And incidentally, if people want to watch my first interview with Isira that she was the victim of a rather horrendous crime. And she managed to save her life really, by recognizing the humanity of her attacker, and loving him while he was in the midst of killing her, and it stopped him in his tracks. So anyway, that’ll be a teaser for watching the first interview.
Isira: Yes, yeah. Thank you for bringing that point into it. Because I guess I am speaking from direct experience. I’m speaking from that direct observation that even a crime of that scale, even more so a crime at that scale is a direct reflection of the degree of woundedness in the individual. And it is up to us collectively as a society or Well, first of all, individually, to recognize we all have wounds, we all have a shadow side, and it is our responsibility to address that. Was it our fault that we were violated? No, but is it our responsibility in the here now and following forward, to bring love and awareness and healing to it? Yes, it is. And of course, with support, so any of you who may be suffering, I really acknowledge that and encourage you, not just to feel you’re alone in that responsibility, but you can be supported. And so back to the point about the penitentiary system, it’s broken, it’s dysfunctional, it actually perpetuates crime and violence, because those who end up in the system, same as you were saying about in Canada, the rate of crime amongst the indigenous people in Australia, are indigenous people are the highest percentage, and children who are sentenced Aboriginal children. That is the highest percentage of incarceration in Australia. This is shocking. And so if, and then there are some steps going towards this, there is a recognition that we need rehabilitation of our criminals. So there are some camps that are doing some work on that. Yes, we’ve got a long way to go. What I also know is that indigenous people, held systems of lore that were based on rehabilitation. And there was such a low rate of crime or dysfunction, anyway, because we were living in accord with natural lores. And so the first thing being the first thing being it’s not me, and you separate, and I don’t own this, it’s we and we are responsible and, and caretakers of all of this. And so there’s one word I really would love to share with you. From my ancestral language, just like most of you and most of our listeners would know the word Namaste right a Sanskrit word, a beautiful word that vibrates in honor and recognition of the self or the God within self or this ancestral word is Nali Gumera. And we can have different layers of translation that means we are one but if we go deeply into it, it means we are one I am not number one,
Rick Archer: Which is kind of similar to the meaning of Namaste also recognizing the universal nature that’s within me and you both. we’re one because fundamentally we are one Anyway go ahead
Isira: Exactly. And I guess the key focus on that and why I share that as often as possible, is because as I referenced earlier, even though we might not be consciously deliberately doing it with our you know, modern spiritual approach you It is siloed. And it is still motivated primarily by the self, the me that the separate individual, even though we can say, Yeah, I want to be one, I realize we’re one we don’t live as it. We don’t live as if it really is true. And secondly, I’m referencing it because of your comments about the penitentiary system. And that, you know, if we really come back to living in truth with the natural lores that we really are not separate, we are distinct, we must honor and recognize our uniqueness, that we truly are interdependent, then we can begin to dissolve centralized systems, which are based on dispossession, control, greed, corruption, and elitism. And so as long as we have those systems existing, we will have wounding trauma, we will have crises, we will have dysfunction within society at large.
Rick Archer: When I hear you say things like that, or other people say things like that, I, I always come back to the thought that you have to really change individuals to change systems. Because, you know, otherwise, it’s to top down. It’s like a forest, which is, you know, gray and dying, and so on, you have to somehow make each individual tree healthy. You can’t just, you know, fly over with an airplane and spray paint the forest. It doesn’t
Isira: No, I agree. And let’s take an example where we can actually approach from both directions, education,
Rick Archer: yeah,
Isira: I, I’m very passionate about bringing what I can to the youth supporting the youth, for example, I’ve just worked with a young women’s camp, 14 young Indigenous women, and speaking about addressing how to bring more holistic learning into the education system, you know, with people in the education departments. So, on the one hand, we, as adults, as we address ourselves, we create a change surrounding us. And then I can take that awareness into a system like a school, like education, and help to just gently massage it in a direction where that system then supports a collective group of individuals. In my view, that’s where it starts. It starts with our early childhood development. And so those of us who know and understand this and have insight that can provide healthy developmental material, then we actually are starting to change the system. At the same time as individuals,
Rick Archer: you really got me thinking about our oneness now and how important this is in the whole consideration. And there’s, there’s a sort of out of sight, out of mind mentality, a lot of times with things, if you can just keep the immigrants out or keep the prisoners in their prisons, or keep the poor people in their ghettos or whatever, then I don’t have to look at him. And but I think, you know, again, no man is an island. John Donne wrote in his poem, and we are all influenced by all of us. I mean, there’s no, if you look at the Earth from outer space, there are no national boundaries. And, and if you could look at the consciousness of humanity, if you could see that as a thing, then there are no, you can’t build walls in it. Everyone influences everybody else. And so it’s really essential, I think that we, I mean, that we somehow cultivate the appreciation of that we’re all in this together. And that you can’t, you can’t have millions of people locked up in prisons, and you yourself be happy you won’t be because their unhappiness is going to bleed into your consciousness on some subtle level. And so I mean, I don’t know that there could be huge discussions about practical ways of solving this, but it seems to me that they should involve doing things to make people healthier, physically, mentally. More, you know, give them access to spiritual technologies, give them access to education, instead of a punishment approach, you know, make them suffer for their crimes they deserve to suffer. That just exacerbates the problem and perpetuates it.
Isira: Exactly. And I guess one of the challenges is, sadly, the truth is some individuals are beyond repair. Yeah, some individuals, that psyche is just destroyed.
Rick Archer: They may be irretrievable in this lifetime, but at least they can be more comfortable and keep them out of harm’s way.
Isira: Exactly. And then, you know, as you said, addressing these imbalances, really, it’s incumbent upon us as spiritual beings, and seekers and practitioners to play our part, you know, and so that might not be go to the prison to deal with, you know, those who are incarcerated, it might be going to your heart to deal with the wound, you still hold because of a transgression from one of your family members, or a work colleague or a friend, look deep into your heart to understand the root cause of that transgression. And great idea, if you want to hear about my own experience, I won’t go into it now read my autobiography, or, as you said, Rick, you know, we touched on that in the previous experience. But what happened for me was, I saw that that violation, that man tried to kill me, because of his own wound his own disconnection from love. And so this immense love arose in me for that soul. And it’s not even something you can do conceptually, it arises when you make contact with that truth, and you know it deeply. You feel it in your soul, you can relate to you can identify with that wounding because you have been wounded yourself. I’ve been wounded. I have transgressed, I know that my own transgressions have come from my own wounds. So if another is acting, in violation or causing a crime, or whatever it is, there’s something deeply traumatized in that soul. And let’s bring love and compassion to that.
Rick Archer: That’s good. Well, maybe we’re done with that particular phase of our discussion, or maybe we’ll come around back to it. But I want to make sure that we give proper attention to all the four pillars of your, of your teaching. And so let’s see, we’ve talked quite a bit about nature, a little bit about relationships. Where would you like to go next in terms of fleshing out our discussion about the four pillars model?
Isira: Okay, so, brief recap, when we are connected with earth, we have a much more natural, it naturally follows that we start to feel more connected with all the living beings in our environment, not just our family, we deepen that relationship. From there, we’re more settled in ourselves,
Rick Archer: Ohh you know, I just have to add, when you say living beings like that, I think of the animals I mean, God what we do to the animals. Here in Iowa, state, the state I live in there, I don’t know 23 million pigs and 3 million people. And most of the hogs most of the pigs live in these confinement things where there’s 1200 of them in a single barn that’s really not that big, then they’re, they’re confined such that they can’t turn around and they they’re standing over a manure pit, you know, which if the fans stop working people die in there because of the stench, literally. I mean, I don’t want to get too graphic. But to me, you know, what we do to the animals of this world? Is, Whatsoever you do unto the least of these you do under me on to me, Jesus said, so that’s another whole, I mean, there’s so many things like that, which really have to be healed. And I’m sorry for interrupting you. But I just wanted to throw that in there.
Isira: Oh, no, please don’t be sorry. It’s a, it’s a really relevant point. Because we are all interconnected. And I guess one of our challenges is taking an all or nothing approach, that we become, you know, lopsided again. Because, of course, there’s a lot of people that have adopted veganism in the quest to address this issue of the inhumane treatment of our livestock, the primary food sources of the meat industry, etc. And I guess if we look at that in comparison to an indigenous culture we see what’s happening in the world is I think I might have said this before but a more mindset it’s the greed you know, I think we touched on this in our previous interview. And so if we look at the level of greed, then we can see where this scale of farming is coming from. And it’s all resting on greed and overconsumption, when we compare it to our roots, indigenous roots, we were living in a sacred cycle, honoring all of the creatures, we would still receive animals as food source, but it was in sacred honor and respect and in sufficiency. It was it was for our sufficiency for our needs, not for our greed and done in a sacred manner, the whole cycle, and we’re just all part of that cycle. So I guess at the moment, we need to go far off to that other scale in in a lot of ways to try to swing it back to better balance. But if we don’t address the point of greed, we’re just still chasing our tails.
Rick Archer: Yeah, well, we won’t even change it unless that point is addressed. I don’t think I mean, as long as like we were saying earlier, it’s only through a change in consciousness that the world will be changed. And if people are still greedy, then they’re just going to build economic and structures that reflect that. That mindset. Yeah,
Isira: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So back to the four pillars. I’m really glad you realized all of a sudden, you tweaked, you went, Oh, my God, all living beings in kinship, right?
Rick Archer: Sure.
Isira: Yeah, every living thing, it’s not just our nuclear family, you know, it’s like it really is every living thing that we are to be consciously in awareness in relationship and respect and honor with. And what I was coming to then is, when we have those first two connections in right order, and in a better balance, we we’re actually much more settled in our soul, in ourselves. And so instead of trying to transcend and renounce things, and get somewhere else, we actually settle in, we settle into a place that we naturally are deep, listening, deep, feeling deep, witnessing. And that is actually our soul. Instead of sitting in our head and sitting in this separate identity, this disconnectedness, we’re here, we actually find ourselves here. And when we find ourselves here, and we really are listening and experiencing from our soul, we’re aware of our true nature, we transcend the limitations of our mind, it’s just so much easier to witness that a thought comes and a thought goes, it’s so much more easy to directly experience, that subtle realm of our being and that we are all this. It’s so much easier to be in tune with our own authentic expression as well. I think that’s a big part of that third pillar, that our unique and authentic expression is to be embraced. If we’re deeply seated and settled in ourselves, then we’re comfortable with being our unique expression. And we, we are much more expansive, we’re much more loving, we are much more fulfilled. And the primary reason for this, the primary reason we are seeking awakening, we’re seeking Enlightenment. Oneness is because deep down in our psyche, we feel separated. And the thing that humans fear the most, is isolation. So think about that. Connection, one pillar, one nature, you’re no longer in as much isolation, connection two pillar two kinship, connection with all living beings and your family. You are no longer as separate or in isolation. Ah, I am here I feel belonging, pillar three. The soul, the unique self, oh, I’m safe to be here. I can finally be present. And what happens when we finally relax and settle in and we feel safe? And we’re really present in the now what happens? It’s impossible for the ego to follow you and act itself out when you are deeply seated in the now. And so you don’t even have to then deal with these ego constructs of identification and fear and worry, past, future, da de da all the story, the monkey mind. Just naturally, you’re sitting in the now that’s pillar three. And from there, pillar four, when those first three pillars are rooted, when we are seated deeply with those pillar four is recognized, naturally, we see the relationship of microcosm, macrocosm within, without form, formlessness. Cause and effect, we see all of that, clearly, we’re no longer caught up just, in our, fixated thoughts, we’re seeing the whole picture, the whole relationship, and that brings it all into balance. So it’s like a construct. And I use different analogies in different moments. But right now I feel to use the analogy of a chair, if you sit down on a chair, and you’ve only got one leg, what’s going to happen to the chair it’s gonna fall over. So the four pillars really are like the four legs of a stable chair. And this what my elders always used to say, You knock one over, and that that seat starts to rock, you knock two over, it starts to tip over its completely lopsided, you knock over three, and you can’t stand up anymore, you knock off the last leg, and you’re done. And this is what is happening in the world. This is our modern world crises situation. We’re disconnected from nature, we’ve dispossessed ourselves, we’ve taken over with the idea that man is greater than the natural lores and God and He knows everything, and he can rule. And therefore he can be the elite and consume greedily, etc., etc. So we’ve knocked off pillar one, our connection to nature country, the natural world, as a result, because we’re disconnected from that we’re in the me mind, we’re separate from each other, and all living beings. And so we violate each other. And, and we feel even more unstable in our psyche. We’re afraid, we’re in grief, and we don’t even realize why we’re in grief, we don’t even realize what the gap is in our soul. And so we’re hungry, we’re craving, we’re desperate to fill that up, we go and we consume more, we go and we possess more, or we catapult ourselves to trying to somehow make ourself more secure. So we go off on some, well, maybe it’s a transcendent path for you to go up to the golden realm to escape and go to renounce. None of this is real. And, you know, well, it’s not knitted together. And so, and I say, with this with the deepest love and respect for everyone whose primary focus has been on the self, this, we’ve all been there, we know there are benefits to it. And there’s still something missing. Because if we don’t have those four pillars in place, we’re not seated powerfully in balance in harmony. So that’s my wish, is that we can all recognize how relevant these pillars are to our lives, you know, it’s got nothing to do with our race or our culture, or where or when we were born. These are the natural lores that are appropriate and true and real to every single living one of us. And if we all look closely, we’ll see that that truth for ourself, that our fears, our grief, our wounding is all tied up in this mess of separation and disconnection, which means there’s incredible hope, because it’s all still here, we just need to rebuild our relationship with it. We just need to reconnect, restore our sacred connection with Earth, with all living beings, with our family, our loved ones, we need to recognize the wounds that it all comes down to the same type of wounding, we’re all feeling separate, we’re all afraid. None of us want to be isolated, we want to belong. And then we can rest again in ourselves, we can rest in our soul, we can rest in love, we can see from the truth of our heart and our soul. And in some ways, this is this is the revival of the feminine too. As we’ve been through this huge paradigm, this huge passage of the patriarchy and the violation against the feminine principles and powers and, and that’s reflected in our dispossession from Mother Earth and our violation one of her our greatest mother. And so indigenous cultures, they are matriarchal, they honor first and foremost, Mother Earth and the feminine. They recognize that if we don’t uphold those powers of the feminine, we lose connection. We lose empathy, we lose love, we lose belonging. And when we lose all of that, we become fearful, we become controlling, we become dominating and obsessive, and possessive, and, and all of that creates great destruction. So I feel, along with this resurgence of indigenous wisdom is a resurgence of the feminine, that we’re all in some way seeking to bring that back into harmony and balance. And in counterbalance to that is, right, honor of masculinity too. this isn’t about to the exclusion of masculinity, it’s about really honoring those energies equally, in ourselves, no matter our gender, no matter our race, or culture, our you know, way of living, that if those energies are out of balance in our self, they’ll be out of balance in our world around us. And so the four sacred pillars, acts as a model and a map for us to restore that balance as individuals. And collectively,
Rick Archer: You should take a transcript of that and make it a chapter of a book; it was also eloquent. It reminds me of that sort of the Hindu or Vedic model where they speak of a cow who is standing on four legs, but now only three legs, now only two legs and only one leg. And it’s sort of representative of the decline of natural lore, you know, from an age where 100% Natural Lore was lively and expressed, and then gradual diminishment of natural lore over the ages, till there’s very little left. But one thing they say in this model, is that the resurgence to the full value of natural law. It’s kind of like the hockey stick model where it goes down gradually, but up quickly. So hopefully, we’re in the midst of something like that right now.
Isira: Yeah. And that, and that’s why I said, look, there really is great hope. Because as much as we are all collectively suffering. And as you beautifully pointed out, before, as long as there are millions of people in prison that’s trickling into our own psyche, from our own field of being and consciousness. So we really are all connected in the same tapestry. And I don’t know the point I was gonna make then but we’re truly connected.
Rick Archer: What I just remembered came to mind is that some health authority in the US I forget what it was, but just the other day, they announced that pretty much all people should be routinely screened for anxiety. Because it’s so epidemic. And I don’t know what the screening is going to do. What are they going to do, give them anti-anxiety medication?
Isira: what give another number to it? Or point out this point out that another deficit in the world? No. Well, that’s what I was saying that there really is great hope. Because as much as we are experiencing, individually, and collectively great crises and challenge and conflict, the principles for wellbeing are available to us. They really are here. I’m not suggesting it’s necessarily an easy process. It’s not there is work and in some ways, just like you talked about the hockey stick model. Well, I talk about the spirals that on one hand, we’ve got an awakening a spiraling up. On the other hand, we’ve still got a spiraling down, you know, the ego really goes to its full experience. We all have to completely experience our shadow side as well. And so there’s this simultaneous spiraling happening, or an overlapping of paradigms. We’ve got the old paradigm that’s maybe say patriarchal or, you know, unconscious and disconnected. And then we’ve got the emergence of the feminine and awakening and reconnecting to the heart and ONENESS consciousness, etc. But the reality is, we’re in that middle bit where it overlaps. And that middle bit is confusing and messy, and it’s full of shit. So we’ve got to wade through stuff like that. kiddo before, we really are able to integrate ourself. So if we have a model that helps us with that, we’re able to really find the gold. Do we still experience and are aware of the cracks and the wounds? Yes, we are. But what’s that Japanese art? You know, where they get the broken bowl and they glue it back together with gold?
Rick Archer: Yeah, I don’t know the name of it, but I’ve heard of it. Yeah,
Isira: Kisugi, or something like that. But every everyone’s seen that beautiful art, right? Well, that’s like our life now. Can we erase the fractures we’ve experienced entirely from our psyche, from our experience? Absolutely not. But we can bring gold to it, we can really understand how to grow something beautiful, from these experiences that we can create even greater beauty in our world and in our life, because of what we’ve been through.
Rick Archer: Yeah, the way I view life is, is not arbitrary, or random, or cruel or meaningless, that there’s that the world is our guru, you know, and that there is, as harsh and difficult as it may seem, at times, there is an evolutionary purpose to our existence, and to everything that we encounter in life. And again, that sounds that sounds glib, you know, because people will go through horrendous stuff. But I’m not making light of that. But I think in the big picture, we can see it clearly what’s really happening. And if we could zoom out far enough, we would see that all is well and wisely put and that there is a sort of an evolutionary prerogative, or agenda or trajectory to the universe. And so that, you know, God is, not only does God exist, but God isn’t mean. Yeah, and everything that’s happening is ultimately in the service of evolution. And I say that, because, you know, we’re just talking about anxiety. I mean, they’re here, in this country, anyway, suicides are epidemic, depression is huge. You know, particularly with COVID, everybody had to be cooped up for a while, and they couldn’t handle that. So I’m always saying things in these interviews, to hopefully give people the inspiration or the hope that you can turn it around. I mean, we all possess deep within an unlimited reservoir of happiness. And anything you can do to tap into that, do it. And life can improve, no matter how dire it may seem. There’s always hope. And there’s always a bright future, if we can see clearly and far enough,
Isira: Totally. And that capacity to see not just to see but to make contact with that bigger picture is something that does arise out of a deeper state of connectivity in ourselves, when we have greater interconnection, and integration of our awakened experiences and it’s grounded. That’s the interesting thing, the more grounded we are in that awakening, instead of something a bit dissociated, or, you know, disembodied, the more grounded we are, the higher we are able to expand in that awareness, we’re actually able to see the bigger picture. Just like a tree, you know, the deeper its roots go, then the higher its branches reach.
Rick Archer: Exactly. I was reading an article the other day about how the Burj tower in Dubai is the tallest building in the world, they sunk the pylons or whatever they call them, like 50 meters into the ground, in order for the building to raise that, that high without being unstable. So similar to us, the was it the Beatles said, the deeper you go, the higher you fly.
Isira: As you said, you know, it’s no longer something that’s a glib perspective. It’s actually profound, it is liberating because when we are able to see that we can keep things in perspective, we, we do recognize that, okay, it’s not so much that there is a God that is mean. Yes, the universe, the cosmos is full of destructive forces. And that is part of its whole immense, profound play of creation, evolutionary mechanism, exactly. Evolutionary mechanisms. And not only that, but the experience we are having now. Is not even a speck of a speck of a speck of a speck of a speck of a speck of a speck of dust of the cosmos. It’s not even a blink of a blink within the blink of a blink of the blink of the blink of an eye of God. You know, it’s like,
Rick Archer: blink to the 40th power.
Isira: Yeah. So we’re so caught in this, Oh, god, when am I ever gonna get out of this suffrage. And really what we are is, is this eternal spirit going through these journeys, you know, entering, rising, surfacing diving deep, and, you know, that’s what we are. So when, as I said, when we are able to have an integrated process of our more awakened states, and we can ground that with a holistic process, then we can keep that in perspective. We don’t go off on a lopsided process, we have the right foundations. And we have the right scales, and timings of our awakening. And, and it’s, it’s a much more balanced encounter,
Rick Archer: Is what you just said, the cosmic perspective, is that an example of point four the cosmos just kind of recognizing the vastness of our true nature and of our place in the universe?
Rick Archer: Yeah. Okay.
Isira: It’s perspective, all about perspective. And recognizing those, the blueprints of those lores,
Rick Archer: That’s really important. I mean, it’s funny, because that’s, that’s what I do. That’s why I have like, I have a collection of about 1000 pictures of galaxies, and nebulae, and all that stuff. And every five seconds or so they change on my screen, and I’m not always looking at my screen. But when I am, you know, boom, I see a galaxy and, and sometimes I’ll pause for a moment and think, okay, 100 billion stars, it’s 100, but 100,000 light years across that galaxy, and think of all the lives being lived there. And I’m probably looking at something that happened, you know, a billion years ago, because of the distances involved or couple million years ago, and so all those lives are gone. But you know, and I’m in a galaxy, and I’m a life like that. And, and yet, I am also the awareness that contains all galaxies. And so we’re individual, and we’re cosmic. And I think it’s a kind of like a spiritual practice to contemplate that on a regular basis.
Isira: Most definitely. Some of you, some of you might have already seen it. But if you haven’t taken a little look at Carl Sagan, the blue dot. That captures it beautifully. And I guess, this perspective, is something that we really do experience when we integrate the more awakened states, and we’re able to be seated firmly in that we can experience that cosmic perspective. And if we don’t bring that back into a holistic framework, we can get lost off out there in that too. So that plays a part in that disembodied trail. Yeah,
Rick Archer: oh. Yeah, True. No, you have to be. There was, I think Ram Dass said, you know, you, can be totally cosmic, but don’t forget your zip code. They have to integrate boundless and boundaries. And you know, that, if it’s integrated properly, then the greater the unboundedness, the more precise the focus can be. They’re not only not in conflict with one another, but they’re complementary.
Isira: They’re complementary. And in a way, they’re just opposite ends of the same field. Yeah. So it’s like this whole spectrum just like form and formlessness Rupa Eva Shunyam Eva Rupa Form is emptiness, emptiness is form. And, you know, again, we can embrace that as a concept. But then how do you nurture and cultivate practices and experiences that support you in having the direct realizations of that so it is in in balance and in harmony rather than something that’s just abstract and conceptual? It’s like, well, we are that and I think a lot of people are chasing this. I think you called it Neo
Rick Archer: Neo Advaita Vedanta? Yeah, it’s sort of like. The McDonalds version of the Vedanta.
Isira: Exactly, exactly. And it’s to the exclusion of all the aspects. So it’s like, oh, it becomes so dismissive. of so called Reality and existence as if it no longer is real. What was that book The Disappearing universe or The Disappearance of the Universe, something like that? Oh, I remember for years.
Rick Archer: Gary Renard.
Isira: Yeah. And on the back of that I was, I was dealing with so many people experiencing this, like complete dysfunctionality as a result of going off into this type of tangent. And it’s, it’s like, Well, okay, it’s the way we you, whatever the me the mind is perceiving reality that is not real. Not that reality itself is unreal.
Rick Archer: Perfect. Excellent. That’s, I’m glad you said that. It’s a so it’s not that the world is an illusion, it’s that we miss perceive what it actually is, we have a very distorted limited appreciation of what it actually is.
Isira: Yeah, yeah. And so let’s go back to this, this little principle we’ve been going around on, which is, the deeper we go, the more grounded we are, the more rooted we are, the more we are able to come into alignment with the true nature of world existence ourself, we’re actually able to see it for what it is. Yeah. So it’s, in some ways, it’s the opposite to a lot of spiritual teachings and approaches.
Rick Archer: And you know, what, when we see it for what it is, we are moved to tears or to awe Oh, yeah. There’s a bumper sticker somebody sent me It says, if you’re not in awe, you’re not paying attention. It’s not. So not only is it not just an illusion, which is to be just brushed away. But it is it is. God incarnate, you know, in every little item that we’ve never seen. Yeah, and you know, every moment, and you can integrate that, because otherwise, you’d be just sitting there with your jaw hanging open the whole time.
Isira: Oh, speaking of this, now, I’m, I did write about this in my autobiography, and in awakening you which is for those of you who would like to explore, perhaps, more deeply practices that that help you in integrating consciousness conscious experiences. I spoke to this process I realized after I’d been in the Himalayas, you know, for all that time I’ve been in these profound states of dissolution, there was absolutely no sense of a separate individual, me at all. And that then merged into this passage, just this ongoing trail of turiya. You know, it’s just like,
Rick Archer: Turiya means the fourth state the transcendence state right,
Isira: Yeah and it was just a constant slipstream of awake in the dream consciousness. And I was so in bliss, so in bliss, that I wasn’t functioning quite as usual. And I was very fortunate blessed to have people around me who were supporting me during that time. Yeah, but it wasn’t, wasn’t so much dysfunctional. It was just that I was just so in bliss, I was in tears of laughter and awe and wonder, nearly every moment of every day. And I had come back from this, come back from languages a bit limited, but anyway, forgive me there. But so I’d been in this complete realm of consciousness, God being if you like, and in that state, it was like there was this reforming of a sense of the individuated stream of the soul of consciousness and there was this vibration of knowingness, consciousness surrounding me that was, oh, well, you no longer need to be incarnate. And then I was experiencing all of creation, the cosmos, and then it zoomed in to Earth. And I was experiencing all of earth and every person on earth and I could feel and hear every person on earth and the suffering and the experiences and I could feel and hear all the prayers for freedom. And I went, Oh, no, I better get back into the body. And I came back into the body and because it was like, it was a conscious choice that No, I want to continue sharing and serving and imparting whatever I can to support humanity and reestablishing greater harmony or awakening or whatever it was and so I then underwent a process of, okay, how do I now really integrate these expansive, blissful states in a way that I can? Yes, I can be that I can be aware of that. And I can really function and it all came down to this simple process, integrating those states with all five senses. So I started a rotating practice, day one would be, focus that state with the gross feeling body, keep anchoring with the feeling. Second day, keep anchoring with the seeing. Third day, keep anchoring with the listening. Fourth day, keep anchoring with the tasting, fifth day, keep anchoring with the smelling, then the sixth day could be anchoring with just sensing and the seventh day could just be
Rick Archer: just being
Isira: right just being. And so I made a practice of rotating that to the point that I then I do experience the activation, integration, conscious engagement with all senses in every moment, I’m grounded. And it’s actually our connection with nature, that enhances and supports that.
Rick Archer: Nice, very nice. There are so many different stories like that of people going into states of Samadhi, and then their teachers saying, all right now get out there and do something with it, you know. Because such people are precious for the world. It happens with NDE people – to people who have these near death experiences, and they’re like, Oh, this is great, I don’t want to go back. And then someone says it, you gotta go back. And you know, you have some your mission is not complete. And then they come back and tell others about it and it gives them hope. But, you know, there’s a lot invested, if you think of sort of God, or Human, our existence as a training camp in which we acquire greater and greater ability. You know, there’s a lot invested in someone who has reached a state of experience such as you just described. And, you know, there’s, I think there’s something to the bodhisattva approach of wanting to, there’s a nice verse somewhere in one of the Vedic literature, things, it says, like gifts, My Lord, I surrender to The so you know, one becomes a vehicle for paying it back, or paying it forward or something, because we’ve been gifted with this profound, beautiful experience. And, you know, it’s almost selfish, to just wallow in it, and, you know, not come down from the mountain, so to speak. And provide. Yeah
Isira: Well totally, and in fact, when we really have pure awakening, and I’ve said this many, many times that awakening is not for the soul, it’s from the soul. There is a realization that it never ever was about the self or the soul it’s just never been about that. It’s been about the whole. In reference to your comment about the bodhisattva, that was the initiation order and vows I undertook at the age of 21, with a Buddhist, Tibetan Buddhists for eternity. So that was one of my ordinations. And that moment, when I was in that dissolved state, if you like, and then there was a sense of a re-forming. That was the verge. It was, in some ways, it’s almost like, what’s that a test? You know? Because the vibration, like I say, the words around me, were well you no longer need to be incarnate. You are this, you know, and, and I could have just left the body completely. But I realized I couldn’t I wanted to be here to serve.
Rick Archer: Yeah. There’s a story about Vivekananda and Rama Krishna, where Vivekananda went into this beautiful state. And then he said, Oh, this is wonderful. I just want to stay in this and Rama Krishna said, I’m so disappointed in you, what’s the matter with you? I want you to go out and, you know, give this to the world. But um, it’s not a sacrifice. You know, it’s not it’s not like, you’ve kind of, you know, made some great sacrifice or compromise. It’s, it’s to your benefit to serve in that way. It’s, it’s in service of your own continuing evolution, I would say,
Isira: Oh, and it’s, it’s in benefit. Yes. It’s in fulfillment, and it’s in furtherment, because I am you, you are me, I am all beings. And if I can give back at least as much, if not more, to you to others to Mother Earth, then I can contribute to returning our cycle to one of not just rebalance. And not just sustainability, but one of abundance.
Rick Archer: Okay, that’s probably a good note to end on. There’s a number of sentences you’ve, you’ve uttered, which are, you know, so eloquent that we can end on that. And then I then I talk some more, I’m not going to talk any more right now. That was great. So thanks so much. I really enjoyed this conversation. And thanks for everything you’re doing. And keep doing it.
Isira: Awesome. And thank you. And I sure hope you keep doing it too. It’s fantastic and great love to everyone listening in and watching. Be well, and in oneness. Thank you.
Rick Archer: And thanks to those who’ve been listening or watching. Go to the BatGap website if you want to see what interviews we have scheduled or if you want to sign up to be notified when interviews are posted. Or you can also subscribe to the YouTube channel and YouTube will notify you. But anyway, we appreciate your time. And hope to meet you in person someday, Isira, if I ever get to Australia.
Isira: Oh that would be awesome.
Rick Archer: All righty. Well, have a great day.
Isira: You too. And lovely rest. Yeah, much love.
Rick Archer: Good. Thanks. Bye.
Isira: Hello, everyone, and welcome again, we ran out of time at the end of the interview, and many questions had come in. So I really wanted to take this opportunity to respond to some of them for you. And also, I’d like to let you know that if you’re interested in exploring the four pillars, more deeply, I am going to be starting a live six week online program that begins on the ninth of October this year. So I’d really welcome you to join in with that. And take some deeper exploration for yourself of how you can connect with the four sacred pillars in your own life and bring that holistic awakening into greater reality for yourself. So we’ll just move on into some questions. And the first one we have here is from Keren Daa of Israel, I hope I’ve pronounced that correctly for you. And the question is, what are your thoughts/viewpoint regarding all is a projection or a dream. I made a brief comment about this during our talk, that oftentimes there’s a notion that reality itself is unreal, particularly if we take that branch and a more exclusive stream of Advaita Vedanta, or you know, Neo Advaita Vedanta, being, all my thoughts are not real, my mind is not real, my body is not real, this world is not real, etc. Whereas I really love to clarify that for everyone being that it’s not so much that existence is unreal, it’s that the way we perceive it to be is not true in its nature. And that’s where it points towards dream like in nature, our mind grabs hold of events, sequences of events, and labels them and defines them and stores them as fixed impressions, fixed ideas. So at the mental level, it appears as if things are fixed to some degree. Whereas if we are truly present in consciousness, in awareness, and we’re abiding in accord with existence as it is in the living moment, we do see that it is very much a dream like phenomenon, that all of this is an emergence from what we might call the void shunyata, the unseen, the uncreate. And so quantum physics speaks very much to this, that if we dig down into this so called fixed reality, we begin to discover that it’s no longer substance. Those subatomic particles dissolve into sound waves, and light frequencies, and that’s where we then really come into contact with this dreamlike nature or the projection of the dream of consciousness, bit like a movie projector. So if we’re really deeply present in conscious awareness in the living moment, we see that nothing is fixed. Everything is this scintillating emergence and submerging again, of light particles and sound wave frequencies. In a continuum. Nothing stays the same at the seen or manifest level. So everything rises and falls from within itself. And once we see and understand that we have a very different perspective of our so called self and existence, it’s not that we then seek to abandon it, or dismiss it or refute it, but rather we have a relationship with it that is in true perspective, being we understand, in its core essence, fundamentally, it remains unchanged, it remains eternally, yet in its manifest, play, it is transient and ephemeral, it is forever changing. That’s the gift, that’s the bliss, the eternal nature means we do not need to be afraid, there is nothing to fear, there is no separation, there is no beginning no ending, we belong we are existence, always have been always are always will be. And then the corresponding side to that is, we also do not need to fear because all things pass and change. And we are in that rivering there is a great play at hand, we begin to see the workings of creation from a deeper place of presence and loving acceptance. So thank you, Karen. That was a fantastic question. And my apologies, everyone, I just had a little note from the tech team that there was a bit of banging, I think the microphone was bumping on my beads. So I’ve adjusted that. Hopefully, our sound will be all good now. So our next question is from Susan Forsed of New York. What do you have to say about the vulnerability of children? And how hard it is for human beings to come to terms with false beliefs learned early in life, usually through parents or other caretakers? I’m interested in how we get entangled with each other, and how that relates to spirituality? Well, yes, this is a very big question. And, of course, very important and relevant for us all. Because indeed, it’s our makeup as humans that the strongest passage of our foundational development is in our formative years from, of course, well preconception, but primarily, we think of it from birth through to around the age of six or seven. Our brain, our subconscious, and unconscious field is very much like a sponge, there are, there’s a stronger tendency for a lower field of discrimination. Recently, it’s been proven that children do still have a degree of discrimination, perhaps a little more than we, we have thought for a long time. Nonetheless, primarily, we’re just very much like sponges, and we’re absorbing our environment. And we’re learning by way of example. And so if our adults around us are still wounded and operating from the child self, we identify with our parents or family as an unsafe representation. Of course this all happens unconsciously. And a large amount of this becomes predominantly unconscious or subliminal. And aside from what we pick up on the seen, or heard level through direct actions or words that are spoken, there’s also our vibration of course. So for myself, for example, as a child, I was so acutely tuned into the other realms or other levels of manifestation being A subtle field, that I could feel a person’s vibration very clearly and, determinedly, whether they were saying something or not, I was experiencing those thoughts or feelings as if they were physical, to my being. And so we’re all being impacted by that. And we’re all interconnected. As I spoke about already, in our conversation, that being all interconnected, and interdependent, we are all influencing each other, each other, it’s like a tapestry, you know, one, one thread will move, and every other thread in that fabric is going to move. And so that happens, of course, at very much at a vibrational level, how we can begin to address that first and foremost is by really acknowledging and, and recognizing that fundamental makeup to all of us understanding how truly sensitive we all are as a manifest being. And if we bring awareness and attention to this, we can take greater care with how we are connected in our self, how we give loving kindness to ourselves, we develop self-reflection, especially through meditation, we can distance ourself from that backlog of impressions that we have accumulated. And we with that sense of disentangling or distance through meditation, were able to loosen our identifications. Were able then to be more of a witness and observe. And along with that comes the gap, and the space to make more conscious and intentional choices around our words and actions. So that even if it’s just ourselves as an individual in whatever relationships, or as a parent, we become more responsible, and more capable of creating conscious love centered relationships. So being able to interact from a place of presence. Being able to model this for our children, of course, is really the ideal. I also mentioned that this is where it begins. First and foremost, we’re emotional beings. And our capacity to bring this into our educational system is not beyond us at all. This is something for great hope that we can give energy and resources and time to foundational development so that our children are supported with more conscious emotional intelligence. And, as I’ve said many times before, it is far easier to grow conscious children than it is to heal wounded adults. And so, sadly, the truth is, of course, for most adults, we do have to undergo that process of disentangling those conditions. And that’s a big, big part of our spiritual journey and our process of re awakening because it’s not really something new. It’s a realigning it’s a reconnection to our true nature, that we are really seeking. So thank you for that wonderful question. And I wish you and everyone great love in that process of disentangling and, and great inspiration to for you to be more consciously connected and holding that space for others in your life and especially for our children. Thank you. And next we have a question from Ajay Maharaj of Ontario. Ajay says I really loved your first BatGap interview. Thank you. I loved it too. And after checking out your website, I loved your articles and insight on love, spirituality and oneness. I have deep fear and confusion regarding being separated from my loved ones after death and not knowing them. I love my family deeply. And I am wondering what your thoughts are as others say that love and connection lasts forever. Well, Ajay, I’m sure you’re not alone in those fears. It’s very common to our human condition. Because we become so identified with this, this realm this level of being which is a more gross level. Being the identification with form we imagine then that there really is a beginning and an end and a severance to our existence. Whereas if we dive deeply into the true nature of our being, we discover that really our fundamental essence is continuum. So even if you try this, this little contemplation, just briefly for a few moments, if you close your eyes, and you think back to the moment before this moment, and then the moment before the moment before this moment, and you just continue taking your awareness back there to yesterday, two days before, a week, before, a month, before, the year before, keep going back, notice that even as you go back, it’s the same Self that is reflecting back. And as you reflect back, even in those points of memory, you’ll be aware you were the same Self, the events were changing your physical form was changing your age, circumstances, etc. Yet, within you was the same Self, the one that is aware, the one that is the energy behind the events, the one that is conscious consciousness itself. And that has not changed. So when you really connect with that, and you rest deeply into that essential Self, that essential energy and being more deeply you rest into it, the more you directly experience and encounter, this true nature of continuum, the unchanged the unborn, the Undying. So the truth is, you could continue reflecting all the way back even to the moment you’re born to the to the time you were in the womb, to the time of conception to the time of preconception, that everything is a continuum of this consciousness, this energy of beingness itself. So this is why the yogi’s and the Masters, have encouraged humanity for millennium, to exercise this state of awareness, to meditate, and to do yogic practices that help us stay in touch with this essential nature. So that we are less inclined to become fixated and identified with this very transient physical manifestation or the collection of our thoughts or a set of specific circumstances, then we can appreciate and enjoy them, we can celebrate them. But keep it in perspective with the truth that our being has always been here before. We identified with these events, with this identity, etc., before, during, and after. So it’s this beingness that continues. Beyond form. It’s this beingness that gave rise to this form. And we have now an incredible number of accounts of near death experiences, return from even clinical death, where there is a consistent report from individuals who go through this passage, whether it’s described as a tunnel of light or not, but that in every one of these reports, it’s the same there is a connection with loved ones who have already passed, who are there greeting them, at that junction, that transition, of moving through beyond form and into the realm so called after form and that it is a love that is greeting them that there is this tangible potency of love and peace and knowingness that it is all okay. Even when those particular individuals are guided in love to return to the body that it’s not their time to depart and to trust, that there is no need for fear that there is a purpose to everything we are experiencing. And that indeed it’s a love that always remains. Even if we look into our true nature. We discover that true nature is boundless. It is all encompassing. There is no division in it. There is no fixed point of time it is all time all place. And what really is love, love is all encompassing. Love is the suspension of our sense of separation, our differences, our divisions, love is embrace. Love is connection and oneness. And so that is our true nature. That we always have been, always are and always will be. So I really encourage you, Ajay with your practices, to continue resting into your essential nature and you yourself will make contact with that essence of the eternal love you yourself will know and realize, and you probably already have had moments of that. So just a little reminder, even though sometimes you feel, might feel as if you’ve lost that again, and you feel like you’re in this conceptual level of experience, that energy has never left you. It will continue guiding you, it will continue reminding you and pointing you back to the truth. Thank you. And our next question is from Deborah Thunderchild, what an awesome name that is from Massachusetts. I’m so sorry, I’ll probably completely messed up the pronunciation of that, USA. And Deborah says I have often heard it said that everything happens for a reason. And is for the greatest good of all. Yet, when I look at what we do to nature, the way we objectify animals and treat them as slaves. I’m heartbroken. I love them dearly. They are my friends, my family and my teachers. I feel you I feel the same the truth. I’m trying to understand how I might best help them and heal this rift between humans and other animals. Thank you so much, Deborah, for that, that love and soulful connection you have and feel with our fellow living beings Likewise, in, in our culture here as Aboriginal Australian people, we hold that principle, very true and dear, that we don’t see a hierarchy of value between humans and animals, we do see each and every living creature and being even rocks and rivers and trees as a collective family. And the very fact that you see it this way, is already your work of healing, and helping restore that sacred relationship and connection between all living creatures and people on this planet. So I encourage you to celebrate that truth. Celebrate the love you have. Allow yourself to receive that acknowledgement and gratitude and appreciation of your own relationship. Really acknowledge that already, that love that connection that you hold. The knowingness is vibrating out around you it is transforming people, things living creatures. I’m sure that wherever you go. With this, there’s a synergy for you. Between perhaps it’s the birds in one moment or an insect in another or the trees. And that synergy is itself a vibrational healing field. So continue with that work, do your best to gently share that with others. Of course, we don’t do that by way of trying to convert or convince others but by way of leading as an example, that becomes a field of magnetism, that those who can benefit or learn from the connection you hold, they will be drawn to you. And, of course, we can all continue evolving and furthering these connections, expanding upon these connections. And that’s for me why I feel the responsibility of passing on the wisdom I’ve gained through direct experience and the learnings I’ve had with my elders, so that that can continue growing in relationship with everyone else as well because there’s an exchange when we do that. So you might actually be interested in joining in that six week online program as well and seeing how you might expand on that already existing, beautiful connection that you have and how you might be able to bring that further into the world in your own way. Thank you so much. Great Love and Honor to you for holding such dear love for all living beings. This is fabulous. We’ve got some great questions. So the next one is from Amanda Kay. In Tasmania, that’s right down the bottom of Australia. For us here in the southern part of the world, I am a self-employed artist, and need to plan my projects and ways to fund my living. How do you suggest that a person live in the moment surrounding oneself to the universe and also plan for the future? I love this question. I love this question so much, because it’s another example of how inadvertently, we do tend to take on certain angles of teaching or concepts to the exclusion of the whole. And what I’ve observed happening, in quite a number of people is revolving around this, this notion of the being really present in the now and living in the now and surrender in the now et cetera, is that then it’s like the mind draws a bubble around that as if this is a bubble, when, in truth, the living now is not time fixed. Some might say it’s the gap between past and future. And from a linear analytical perspective. Sure, it’s, it is somewhat in a gap between past and future yet, even if we pay deep attention to this conversation, there really is no gap. There’s a stream the continuum on which past, present and future are actually co-occurring. Now. Here’s an example, a literal example. If you go out at night, and you stare at the stars, up, down, out, in whichever perspective you want to give it, you stare at the stars. You’re in the now, right? You can say okay, I’m in this bubble, I’m in the now. Yet what you are observing is billions and billions of years in the past, right in the here and now. Also, so there’s just one literal example of right here right now the past is existing. The past is also existing vibrationally in the impressions that have synergized to make up your energetic field vibrationally and in your cells, right here right now. Those impressions are still vibrating here. Water is a carrier of these impressions and information. We’re more than 75% Water. Emoto, Massaro Emoto did all of that beautiful work and showed how water can carry the vibrational imprint of words that are spoken. So think about that. I can say, Love. Right now into my cup of tea. We can take a timestamp, it’s a right. Love was inserted as an impression. In this moment, we’ve already passed this moment but love that impression is still here. We can also acknowledge that even our visions and dreams, we might say are future oriented, we might say, Okay, I’m imagining my future I wish for the future. Yet, that is also happening right here right now. So I really encourage you to try and soften the edges around this a bit and not be so fixed in the approach to living in the now but to be really open and allow the fluidity of all these varying impressions that we label, past, present and future that are really all here, all a part of our makeup and, and also the purpose, it’s functional. It is functional to be able to have impressions of the past, for example, because I do every time I go to the door, I know how to open the door. I don’t have to work it out all over again. It is functional, as part of the unfolding play of creation that we have imagining, and vision. And in some ways we could say well, even that imagining and vision must already exist on some level for it to even occur. So is it really future? We could play around that over and over you know; we can get caught up in philosophical contemplation but it doesn’t change the truth that we’re unfolding in a certain way in the here and now. And there’s a converging relationship of past, present and future. So relax a bit with it, let yourself play with it. Trust that, functionally, it really serves you to tap into your visions and your imagining for future events and that you give some structure to it. The key is, when it comes to planning is to not have too much fixed emotional attachment, use it as a structure as a guideline. Hold that open, when it works out that way. Fantastic. When it doesn’t, okay, there’s another way it’s going to unfold, or work with another structure, timing or planning in the next moment. So really, it’s, it’s an exercise of both embracing all those elements and not having attachment. So good luck with your planning, and much celebration for you as an artist, you know, we need more and more of that artistry in the world. So go for it. So we have time for one more question, which is from Catherine Shields of also of Tasmania. And Catherine asked, how necessary is it to have the guidance of a teacher and is being in the physical presence of someone like Isira, Oh, me, necessary, rather than just reading or watching the teachings? Well, I guess this one is a little bit of a blend between yes and no and any of it and it’s all okay. Because, yes, there’s great benefit in having a teacher and guidance. Why because well, we are in relationship with ourselves through interrelating. We don’t grow in isolation. That’s the first point. Second point is, there’s always someone ahead of us and someone behind us, we are all playing a role in some way of teaching for others, and in some way as learning from others. And so, you know, I really celebrate the truth that I’m, I’m a living student of existence of creation, that in every moment, I am being guided and nurtured with existence as it unfolds and continues evolving. And that’s something to celebrate. So the role of teachers has been really significant throughout all ages of humanity. Even if we look at our indigenous roots in history, we see there were always shamans there were the head healers, elders, etc. And there was a genuine respect and honoring for these roles. Based on the empirical value, it’s through direct experience that we acquire the respectful role of being a teacher or an elder. And likewise, as a teacher or an elder, we acquire that position through being qualified in direct experience, and the depth of love and commitment, the responsibility that we feel to pass on the gifts of experience, for the benefit of others for the benefit of all. So there’s incredible value in direct exchange and guidance from a teacher and many teachers, it doesn’t have to be a single teacher. And sometimes for some, it is for a passage, that there’s an ability to go deeper and deeper and deeper and transcend some of the ego boundaries, because a teacher will push you a little bit further because the teacher can see your greater potential beyond your own ego, boundaries, sometimes. There’s great value, of course, in being able to experience that in direct company, because we know that there is a difference when we’re physically in each other’s company. There’s other levels of transmission that do occur and we’re sharing a vibrational field at that physical level. We really create magic. It’s incredible. However, that doesn’t mean that we don’t get elements of that, when sharing online through instruments like this or through books or through audio content or just video content. I know I myself have felt incredible vibrational transmissions reading things or listening or watching things in other moments. And that other people have felt those transmissions from a variety of the material that I provide as well. So it’s not limited to one or the other. I think really, it’s just that these are different aspects and scenarios that can and do occur. And I guess it’s dependent on one’s circumstances, and where you’re at as to what is really in alignment or resonance for you. Suffice to say, we really are all students of our life, our journey and of existence and our ability to stay open as that can only bring us greater richness and greater joy, and greater wellbeing. Because we do not exist in isolation. Our trees our insects, the rivers, every living creature is contributing to the intelligence of life and how it is functioning, how it is evolving. So my wish is that we can all stay open hearted and welcome the great fabric of divine intelligence through as many different avenues as possible, welcome that with a humble heart and celebrate this journey, the opportunity to learn and grow together. And whatever I may pass on to you, may it be in loving service for you. What suits you may you welcome it. What does not resonate or suit you may it be surrendered in love. That it just flows on its way wherever it belongs. So my deepest loving acknowledgement to you all for being as you are a student of life and a teacher for others as well. And a gift of loving presence and conscious evolution. And again, my deep regards and respect for Rick Archer and the whole team of BatGap. All of you with so much love and gratitude for being part of this shared experience. Wishing you well Namaste.