Debra Martin Transcript

Debra Martin Interview


  • Debra Martin is a certified medium, intuitive healer, and author of six books.
  • Childhood experiences: Debra shares how she used to see faces at night when she was four years old, and how she shut down her abilities out of fear and social pressure.
  • First car accident: Debra recounts how she had a premonition and a divine intervention that saved her life in a car crash, and how that sparked her interest in spirituality and mediumship.
  • Second car accident: Debra describes how she had an out-of-body experience and a conversation with God in another car accident, and how that enhanced her mediumship abilities and led her to get tested by the Windbridge Institute.
  • Experience as a proxy healer: Debra describes how she acts as a proxy for the patients who receive the spiritual surgery from God and his team of surgeons. She shares some examples of the validations, miracles, and messages that she witnesses during the sessions.
  • Physical and emotional toll: Debra admits that she sometimes feels the pain and symptoms of the patients, and that she has to take care of her health and balance. She also says that she does not remember the details of the sessions, as they are not her words or actions.
  • Uniqueness and limitations: Debra explains that her healing technique is unique to her, as she has a direct and trustful connection with God. She says that she does not know anyone else who does the same thing, and that she cannot teach it to others. She also says that she does not know what each patient will receive, and that she is not in charge of the outcome.
  • Perspective on God and healing: Debra expresses her belief that God is love, and that love heals. She says that God works through different forms and beings, and that he does not cause the problems or suffering in the world. She says that everything we go through has a lesson, and that we have to see the blessings and miracles in every situation.
  • Debra’s experience with cancer and how she decided to send love to her body and her cancer.
  • Debra’s army: Debra built an army of people who supported her through her cancer journey, including her family, friends, and doctors.
  • Debra’s approach: Debra chose to embrace her body with love and gratitude, rather than fight the cancer. She also communicated with her cancer and asked what lesson it wanted to teach her.
  • Debra’s lesson: Debra realized that her cancer showed her the beauty of life and the compassion for others who suffer from cancer. She said she learned to walk with them, rather than heal them from the outside.
  • Debra’s advice: Debra encouraged people to be open to whatever healing they need, not just what they want. She also suggested to use intuition, faith, and joy as tools to heal themselves and others.

Full transcript:

Rick: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer. Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of conversations with spiritually awakening people. We’ve done nearly 700 of them now. If this is new to you and you’d like to check out previous ones, go to,, and look under the past interviews menu. This program is made possible through the support of appreciative listeners and viewers. If you appreciate it and would like to help support it, there are PayPal buttons on the website. My guest today is Debra Martin. Debra lives in Arizona. She’s a world-renowned intuitive healer and International Research Lab Certified Medium with the Windbridge Institute Center. I interviewed Julie Beischel some time back, who is one of the heads of that center. Julie has, and I think Gary Schwartz, who works with her, has set up a testing procedure for ascertaining the reliability of mediums, how accurate they actually seem to be. I get the impression that Debra passed that test with flying colors. She’s a spiritual coach, a survivor of three near-death experiences, cancer, and an author of six books. Her most recent book, which I read, is called “Proof of Miracles.” She also has one called “Doctor’s Faith and Courage.” Debra had her third near-death experience in 2012, where she had an out-of-body experience and a conversation with God. I’ll be asking her about that. From this experience, her mediumship abilities heightened, and she was given the gift to heal. Debra has developed a healing technique, which is not being done anywhere else in the world. In 2013, the Logos Church ordained her as a healing minister due to the healing miracles, they were witnessing. A lot of those healings are discussed in her book. She is a motivational speaker and has been on many radio shows. Welcome, Debra.

Debra: Welcome. I’m so happy to be on. Thank you, Rich, for having me.

Rick: You’re welcome. All right, so let’s get started, and we’ll just see how the conversation flows. I often like to ask people if they look back at their childhood, like when they were 4, 5, 6 years old, was there anything unusual about them which, now looking back, might have been a precursor to some kind of interest in or development of spirituality later on? And the answer is not necessarily yes, but a surprising number of people I’ve interviewed had something when they were kids.

Debra: Yes, I did. When I was about 4 years old, before kindergarten, I would see faces come to me at night, and the faces would be rather large, like in my face as I’m laying there. So that’s scary, right? It’s like, “Who are you?” And I can always remember saying, “Mom, I can’t sleep. Can I come downstairs?” “No, Debra, go back to bed.” So, it wasn’t something you could talk about because how do I explain what I’m seeing? I didn’t even understand it myself. But I do remember in order to get them to go away, I would turn to my side, and I had a wooden dresser, and I would just kind of sketch with my finger, like dig in the wood the beginning letter of their name.

Rick: Huh. They had a name?

Debra: Yeah. I would say, “Well, who are you?” They might say, “Steve.”

Rick: So, you’d start writing an S, and then–

Debra: Just to take my mind off of seeing them.

Rick: Yeah.

Debra: And then I wouldn’t give no more attention to it. So that fear, right? That’s fear. That kind of closed everything down, like, “I don’t want to see you. I don’t want to be around you.” And you just kind of shut that off, especially going to kindergarten. Then you start to have an outside world, right? And all of a sudden, you become in tune with all those things coming and going around in your mind that you don’t allow anything else in.

Rick: Yeah. You don’t want the kids to think you’re weird. Yeah, it’s too bad that–I mean, it would be interesting if we lived in a society where this kind of thing was understood and considered normal. I wonder how that would affect kids’ development, you know, and what the whole society might be, how it might be different than it is now.

Debra: Well, I think we have opened up. I mean, before, it was–nobody even called people mediums, right? Like, that was just not unknown. And now people are getting tested, like I did, just to see, “Is this real? Is this really something that’s happening?” And then as you are enlightened, you are opening your children up. Like, you’re allowing them just to express without having any fear or concern of what they’re saying. You just embrace it.

Rick: Yeah. You have kids, right?

Debra: I do.

Rick: How old are they?

Debra: They all have children themselves, except for my youngest who’s in college. Yeah.

Rick: Yeah. You’re a very young-looking grandma. And so what do your kids think of all this?

Debra: Well, it’s been interesting. It’s been an interesting journey. One of my sons has the abilities, and he used them in high school. In fact, they did a TV show on teen medium. And then he went into the science world, and he got his PhD, and so, he kind of keeps it off to the side. I don’t want to dabble in it, but it’s always there. So, he has it if he chooses to use it. I think they’re open to it. They love what I’m doing because they know that I’m on this path with my mission, and I’m following my mission. And to them, even if they live in reality, right, they’re always living in the–how do I want to say this?– business world, right? And they don’t live in the spiritual world at all. They look at me like, “Wow, she embraces, and that’s integrity.” They look up to that I’m willing to remove everything else to do this work.

Rick: That’s great. Do you think this kind of thing tends to run in families?

Debra: I do. I do think so. – Yeah.

Rick: I wonder what it is. It’s probably not so much genetic as it is kind of a soul group kind of a thing where, you know, like attracts like and birds of a feather stick together and all that, huh?

Debra: Yeah, well, my father, when my mother passed, he kind of went through a depression. And I can remember him saying to me, “You know, I had a conversation with your mom in the car. She was sitting next to me.” And I thought–at that time, I was like, “Okay,” right? But I see where it came from. And he was from Austria. And they say that a lot of great mediums come from Austria.

Rick: That’s interesting. I didn’t know that. Yeah, I have a good friend who’s the great nephew of Harry Houdini and has done a bunch of narrated TV shows and stuff about Houdini. And one thing you probably know about Houdini is that he was really interested in this, but he really wanted it to be real. And he was testing people, you know, for many years, and he was never quite satisfied. So, what is it about the Winbridge procedure that makes their, you know, testing reliable to a significant degree that Houdini didn’t have access to?

Debra: Okay, so it used to be the Veritas Center with Dr. Gary Schwartz and Dr. Jilly Beisel. And they came up with a protocol that was a quadruple blind experiment. So, you can go on the and read about how rigorous it was. In fact, when Julie went on her own and Gary went one way, she decided to still go after the mediums and study the mediums. So, I followed her. And she will say to you, like, we can’t pass everyone. Like, it’s really hard to get certified. And the good thing about that is it gives me the backbone to go, I have science behind me, right? And that they’re proving something.

Rick: Because you passed.

Debra: Because I passed, yeah. Yeah.

Rick: And what did you do that enabled you to pass the test?

Debra: Oh, there were lots of steps, lots of steps. Like one, she won’t have it. I can’t really explain it in the best detail, so it’s better that you read it the way she wrote it up. It can be a little idea. So she would have, let’s say, the sitter, the person that lost the loved one, right? Now, she wouldn’t know who that person is. So, she would have another science that would know that person. Then another person would email me it. So, you have nobody I could read any energy off of that email that knew something about that loved one.

Rick: So what would you get, just a name or something?

Debra: I would get a mail.

Rick: Oh, it’s a man. That’s all that you would get?

Debra: Yes.

Rick: Wow.

Debra: And so then they want you to know, they want you to tell, you know, is there a message for their loved one? What did they do for a living? Can you describe them? What did they look like? What’s their height? What’s their personality like? You know, just everything that you can bring forth, and you’re doing that on your end. And that tricky part is writing it out, because receiving it’s easy. But when I’m writing it, you have to write like, well, he came through and said this. But I also got a vision like this. And that’s the combination of what I received. And then you write how it all came through. And then when she scores it, it’s given to the sitter. But it’s this — my session, along with another medium session, is given — the sitter is getting two. And she has to see which one is hers. And so the sitter will rank it and say, okay, this is my reading, this is my loved one, and she ranks it and scores it. And then you have to go through the next step of actually talking and having a live reading with her over the phone without seeing her. So, yeah, there’s a lot of steps to it.

Rick: What do you think are the actual subtle mechanics of how this works? Like if somebody called me on the phone and said, “It’s a man,” I would get nothing. I wouldn’t be able to explain anything, you know? I could sit there all day. So, you know, are you, like, connecting somehow with your subtle body? Or, you know, how would you explain the mechanics of this?

Debra: Well, it’s interesting, because since I’ve kind of learned that way with working with Dr. Gary Schwartz and Dr. Julia Beischel is the relationship. So a lot of mediums say, “I don’t want to know anything.” So I’ve done that before, and then you get the loudest loved one on the other side, and they’re like, “Well, I didn’t really want to talk to my grandma,” right? And I’m like, “Well, that’s the one that was the loudest.” So I’ll say, “Well, what’s the relationship of the loved one you want to speak with? Let’s have a direct connect.” And so then I will go into meditation hours before. So, their day is their day if I do a reading. So I will sit and say, “Show me. Show me some signs.” I’ll take a walk with them. I’ll see if I can smell them. They might come in my dreams the night before. And just allow anything and all to come through from that loved one.

Rick: So do you think that perhaps the way this works is that people on the other side have such a broader range of perceptual capabilities that if somebody or other wants to contact them through someone like you, they become aware of it as if a light was shining or a phone was ringing or something and say, “Okay, this lady here has the ability. She’s going to try to contact me.” And then they kind of zero in and connect with you so that all this information starts coming through.

Debra: Yes, and I also believe that their loved one is the one that guided them.

Rick: Their deceased loved one or their living loved one?

Debra: No, their loved one on the other side. Their deceased loved one knew of me and guided them to get in touch with me.

Rick: Oh, to get in touch with you.

Debra: So they started the process. And it’s kind of interesting to always ask, “Well, how did you find me?” And then you go, “Oh, yeah, see how it all connects.” So I believe that they hear us. It’s like an antenna, right? They’re like, “Okay, that person down there can hear me really, really well.” And there’s so many different mediums. So I always say, “Well, they’re going to find the one that they like. Are you more compassionate or are you more like in your face and going to tell you what it is?” So they’ll find the one that works best for them as well.

Rick: You know Father Nathan Castle?

Debra: I don’t.

Rick: I interviewed him a couple of years ago. He’s a priest. And one day out of the blue, or one night out of the blue, he had this vivid dream that somebody was burning or something, sitting on the radiator of a car and burning. And he didn’t know what that was. But it turned out, long story short, he ended up developing the ability to help stuck souls cross over. And there was some guy who had actually been in an accident where he was burned like that. But once he got rolling with this, he has become kind of deluged with requests because there are not too many people who do that. And somehow the word spreads or somehow, they’re able to tune in on his existence and elicit his help.

Debra: I think the Spirit’s like, “Hey, this guy can help you. This guy, go here.” It’s kind of like how we connect. They’re connecting. They’re all talking. They’re all connecting. It’s fascinating. I think our worlds are so blended.

Rick: They have sort of a Yelp in heaven or something where they rank the restaurants, or rather, the mediums. It’s interesting. What’s that, Irene? Help instead of Yelp. Help instead of Yelp, yeah.

Debra: Yeah, and I have a priest, too, that I had worked with. His name was Father William Tracy. He was the world’s oldest priest, Roman Catholic priest, and he lived in Seattle. He just recently passed, but he had read my books, and he requested that I come see him. So I went and met him, and it was so fascinating because here I was on my spiritual journey my way, and he was on his spiritual journey of 78 years of priesthood his way. And when we met, he was like, “We come together on the same platform.” And it was like, he goes, “One world, one love.”

Rick: Yeah, Bob Marley.

Debra: It was just beautiful, just beautiful. And it almost like expanded my wings almost to say because here I have this person that’s really well-known with God and religion, and he’s honoring me, right? And it was just like we were one in the same. It was beautiful.

Rick: Yeah. The way I see it is all these people I interview and people like you, it’s like one big team, but people play different positions on the team according to their capabilities, which is like a baseball team. You have a shortstop and an outfielder and so on. But here I interview people. You do mediumship, so-and-so is a scientist, and so-and-so is an Advaita teacher. But there’s this overall sort of multi-pronged effort or process whereby collective consciousness is rising in the world.

Debra: We all work together to raise that vibration.

Rick: Yeah, yeah.

Debra: Yeah, and we need each other.

Rick: Yeah, for sure. Okay. All right, so then obviously we talked about when you were a little kid and then you moved on. So in your adult life, when was the first time that something of this nature began to dawn?

Debra: Well, I was – in fact, at the time when I was married, I was just engaged the night before that I had this car accident, and I was in route to go visit my friend that had needed some spiritual guidance. So I was driving a Honda with four doors, Honda Accord, and on my way I turned the car into the left turn bay, and I was just sitting there waiting for traffic so I could go into the neighborhood. And as I was sitting there, I didn’t know anything. I didn’t have a premonition. And with that car accident, a man came in a diabetic seizure, and he hit my car at 65 miles an hour and spun me into oncoming traffic.

Rick: Wow.

Debra: That one, I immediately – an impact. I was out of my body, and I was looking down at my body. And now I’m watching everything kind of transpire, and I feel this great big being behind me. And I just heard the words, “Are you ready?” And at that moment I said, “No, life’s too good,” right? And I was a mom of three kids at the time.

Rick: They meant ready to die and move on.

Debra: Right, are you ready to stay here?

Rick: Right.

Debra: And I said I knew what that meant. And I said, “No, but I’m not going to survive that.” I saw a truck carrying a tractor, and he was going to come right on top of me. I said, “I’m just not going to survive that. There’s no way out.” And instantly I was in the backseat of my now, like, crunched car. There was no doors, all windows out. Everything in the car was out in the streets, and I’m in the backseat of this little part of this pocket. And I remember the police officer coming to my door going, “We’re sorry, we’re sorry. We were on pursuit to get him off the road.” But there was a gentleman standing next to him, and this was so key because he goes, “Sir, are you okay?” And he’s like, “No, I’m not okay.” Because what just happened, I can’t explain. Somebody took my steering wheel at the last second. I should have crushed her, and I went into oncoming traffic. I don’t know how that happened. When he said those words, it was like a download. Whoa, I saw that.

Rick: Right.

Debra: And so that was actually my second one because my actual first car accident was when divine intervention came, and that started my mediumship. This started my–I mean, take that back. The first one was opening the door to spirituality. What is mediumship? What is this all about, seeing divine intervention? Does this exist? The second one, I actually–that’s when I got tested with Dr. Gary Beischel and Dr. Julie Beischel and Dr. Gary Schwartz, yes, because I was just thinking, “How did that happen? I’m now hearing voices. They’re getting very loud, and is this real?”

Rick: So the guy with the steering wheel, obviously what you’re saying there is that some guardian angel of yours or something caused his steering wheel to go like that so he didn’t go slam into you.

Debra: Yes.

Rick: Right, and he didn’t even have an accident, even though it was steered into oncoming traffic. Somehow it worked out. So that’s interesting. And the very fact that–and I’ve heard so many stories about this, that there’s some kind of intervention from some non-corporeal being at the time of a situation like this, and that they’re there just when they’re needed and do something, and the person survives or communicates with them. It’s all very interesting.

Debra: It was just like a snap of the finger. As soon as you said, “I’m not ready,” it was like, boom, everything just went back.

Rick: Yeah.

Debra: Yeah. And as much as it shifted me, I’m sure it shifted him as well.

Rick: Shifted whom?

Debra: The driver that was supposed to take it.

Rick: Oh, the driver, yeah, because it was like, “What happened?”

Debra: Right, right.

Rick: Yeah. So you’re saying then that–and this was your second car accident, an NDE, but you’re saying that it was the first one that actually kick-started your interest or your abilities.

Debra: Yeah, so that happened the same night that Princess Diana had her car accident. I was out with two other girlfriends, and we were hanging out with some other friends, and we saw that on the news, what just transpired. And you know that just kind of shook everybody where you’re glued to the screen. So when it was time to go home, it was probably around midnight, I didn’t want to get in the car. It was a sports car where I would have to climb into the back seat. And they’re like, “Debra, you’re overreacting from what you just saw on TV.” At that time, I didn’t even know what a premonition was, right? But I had this strong knowingness, like, “I’m not supposed to get in this car.” Well, I did. And as we were on the freeway coming home, all of a sudden, I had another premonition that we were going to get hit. And it was so quick that you couldn’t think about it. All I could think of is, “No, not now,” right? I’m a mother of three kids, single, not now. Right when I said, “No, not now,” this truck was a big utility truck that didn’t have any windows, came from the fast lane and hit us. And we spun out and took 40 feet of guardrail out and came face – and then we came facing traffic. Now, everything’s – like the whole car is crushed. We can’t get out. I’m once again in the back seat of that little car. And we’re panicking, like, “Oh, my gosh.” Like, “These cars are going to come towards us. Are we going to get hit? How do we get out? We can’t get out.” And someone came to our rescue and opened the doors so effortless, picked each one of us up, carried us to the embankment, put us way far away from the road, and he kissed me. He kissed me on the forehead. He said, “I’ll see you again.” I go, “No, no, no, no.” And I’m wearing the ring today. I was like, “This ring, it’s bleeding, and it’s pressed into my finger. It really, really hurts. Can you help me take it off?” Well, he took my bloody finger, put it in his mouth – I have his teeth marks, so I know they’re real – and took it out and handed it to me.

Rick: Bent the ring into its normal shape again, yeah, with his teeth.

Debra: Yeah, and if you even try to push on it like anybody, even try to push on it like your whole body, you can’t bend this ring.

Rick: Interesting.

Debra: So he said, “I will see you again.” And now all the fire trucks are coming. We probably had like five ambulances, two fire trucks, you know, the whole bit. And I looked to the right, and when I looked to the left, he was gone.

Rick: Yeah.

Debra: And no one ever saw him.

Rick: And yet you and two others were physically carried to the side of the road by this person. I wonder if there had been a webcam – not a webcam, you know, those surveillance cameras they have everywhere these days. I wonder if that would have recorded a person picking you up and carrying you over, or if it was like you magically floated over.

Debra: We tried everything. Like where did he come from? There was no car, like no witnesses. We had other cars that pulled over afterwards.

Rick: And your companions were aware of him too, obviously. They felt themselves being carried over.

Debra: Oh, yeah. My one friend, she had broke her leg. She couldn’t move, so he couldn’t carry her too far. So, yes, it was – and the car was totaled.

Rick: Interesting.

Debra: Both cars.

Rick: Now the skeptic would just say, “Well, this is some strong guy who just showed up, pulled the doors open, carried the ladies over, and then split,” you know?

Debra: And we kept asking for him, like when we were in the hospital, like, “Where’s that guy? Where did he go?” They’re like, “There was no one. There was no one.”

Rick: And what you’re implying is this is, again, some kind of guardian angel thing or something like that.

Debra: Yeah.

Rick: Even the ring is a strong evidence. I mean, anybody who’s watching this, Debra will send you a replica of the ring that’s bent, and you can try to straighten it with your teeth to see if it’s possible.

Debra: Yeah, right. I have pictures in my book too. But it’s just like – it shook me too, like, what just happened? Then I had to go on that exploring. I would go to conferences. Are the angels real? Do they really exist? Can they help you? Is there divine intervention? What’s break cognition? What does that mean? Was I being told not to get in the car? Was this supposed to happen? Like, there was so much, and it just kind of – like enlightenment, and the whole awakening started.

Rick: Right. Just followed the breadcrumbs, and one thing led to the next.

Debra: Yeah, and I guess, you know, maybe I didn’t listen loud enough. They were trying to open my mediumship, and so I got another car accident that woke me up. Not that I want to say everybody has to go through trauma to get there.

Rick: No, but, you know, obviously there are many things that wake people up – spiritual practices, car accidents, sudden out-of-body experiences for some reason. Like, I interviewed a woman who nearly drowned when she was just four years old or something, had this profound out-of-body experience, and that got her going. So many things – psychedelics these days, but for some people, you’ve got to go through the school of hard knocks, I guess, and have car accidents.

Debra: Well, and they taught me a lot. You know, you have to kind of look at the lessons we go through, the trauma we go through, and what lessons do they bring.

Rick: Yeah.

Debra: And that’s a big one that happened with my big NDE, I’m 1/21/12.

Rick: That was your third one?

Debra: Mm-hmm.

Rick: Okay, what happened with that one?

Debra: SO that one, I was being seen at Mayo Clinic. I was really, really sick, and they couldn’t diagnose me. And I was down to 90 pounds. I was in a fetus position in my bed. I could not get out of bed. If I tried to drink a teeny bit of water or a teeny bit of, like, a cracker, I was doubled over as if I was having labor pains for 24 hours.

Rick: Wow.

Debra: If I did eat anything, I didn’t have any control of my bowels. So I was losing my dignity, right? So at that time, I was saying, “God, I’m ready. Please just take me. This is no — I have no quality of life.” So you can see where people are just like, “Okay, I’m done.” And I had a child that was in third grade living at home. So for me to say I was ready to leave her, that’s a pretty big statement. But I was. I knew that she would be better off than me laying in bed in pain, right? So one morning on 1/21/12, I saw spiritual surgeons come into my room.

Rick: Yeah, I want to talk to you a lot about the spiritual surgeon. So elaborate on that as much as you like.

Debra: So as a medium, you see people, right? So seeing them in scrubs wasn’t something that I was afraid of. It wasn’t like, “Okay, what is this? What’s going to happen?” So I thought, “Okay, well, they’re here to help me.” Well, as they started working on me, it became very painful, very, very painful.

Rick: Okay, now wait a minute. So these guys that came in, they had scrubs on, but they weren’t ordinary human beings, you’re saying. They were some kind of higher beings that came into the room, and you recognized them as spiritual surgeons. And if there had been a nurse in the room, she probably wouldn’t have seen them. Is that all correct?

Debra: Correct.

Rick: Okay.

Debra: So, yes, spiritual surgeons as in a spirit coming in a surgical outfit.

Rick: Did they look like normal humans, but just somewhat ethereal or something?

Debra: They do.

Rick: Could you see through them, or were they just–

Debra: No, they looked like just normal people. But I wasn’t really concentrating too much on the actual being–

Rick: Gross appearance, yeah.

Debra: because they started to work on me, and it became really, really painful.

Rick: Okay, tell us how they worked on you.

Debra: So I can remember them–it was all in my abdomen, so I can remember them going into my abdomen. And I can remember just wanting to scream in pain. I was like, “I know I have to go through this, but I don’t know if I can.” So the best way I could was let’s just remove my mind from my body right now. And by doing that, I was like, “I’m just going to calm my mind. I’m going to concentrate on my breathing. I’m going to take a deep breath in.” And as I took a deep breath in and I let it out, I was out of my body.

Rick: Like observing from the ceiling or something?

Debra: I was just disconnected. I was not in any pain, and I could feel myself now floating up. And I was like, “Okay, I like this.” And so as I was going up, I was surrounded in white light. When I came to a stop, it was like almost as if you’re on a plane, and you look outside and you see all the clouds. And I’m like there going, “Okay, I’m here all by myself. Now what?” Is this just where I’m supposed to stay while they heal me? Like I don’t know. I’m just standing here. And then all of a sudden I see this beautiful beam of light coming towards me. Now when I say beam of light, it’s not a light that we have seen before. It’s this beautiful, bright light, and it starts coming towards me, coming towards me. And I see these hands. And before I know it, I’m now seeing my body being held by this being. And I’m like, “Okay, I’m witnessing this.” It took me a while to figure out my spirit was watching my body being held.

Rick: Were you seeing your emaciated 90-pound body being held like that?

Debra: Yeah. I could tell I was really, really sick.

Rick: Okay.

Debra: And so I followed, and we went to a space where he, she, it put me on this beam of light. And there was a glass coffin next to it. And I wanted to try that glass coffin. I’m like, “That’s like Snow White. Can I go sit in it and try it out?” Right? But I was told, “No, we’re going to go over to this other space, and we’re going to have a conversation.” And I said, “Well, why do we have to go in this dome? Why do we have to go in there?” And he’s like, “Because this is for me to have a conversation with you, not for anyone else in the universe to hear.” So when I had my conversation, it was like sitting at a table, and I could feel the being right here, the divine. And there was like a scroll, like my life plan right in front of me. And you couldn’t read it all, but I just read the bottom. And I was told, like, “All things are reversible, and you need to go back.” And I said, “But I don’t want to go back. Like this is safe. I’m healthy. Like can I just see my parents?” He’s like, “No, you see your parents, you won’t go back, no.” And I said, “Okay.” So I’m kind of bartering because there were like some words on the paper, and one of them said “health.” And I said, “Well, health doesn’t mean anything to me. I need to say healthy.” So I saw it change. And I just — by signing the contract, I was told that I would be a voice. And I was thinking, “Well, voice means mediumship.”

Rick: So you signed the contract? I signed the contract, and I heard, “Look at the date, 1/21/12. All numbers are reversible, and so is this.” And so I said, “Well, can I just stay for a little while?” And he’s like, “No, you need to go back.” And I was like, “But I feel so much better right here.” He’s like, “You need to go back. You’re on borrowed time here. You need to go back.” And I can remember when I went back, it was like coming back into the body, almost like a mattress that’s being deflated, right? You can see the flow of the mattress. And then when I took a breath, it’s like coming up from being held underwater, like that. And at that moment when I went, “Ahh,” I was like, “What just happened?” And no more spiritual surgeons were in the room, and everything just was calm.

Rick: Interesting.

Debra: Mm-hmm.

Rick: Now I’ll say this very quickly. I’m not going to elaborate. I had an experience with something like that one time, but it wasn’t like they were doing a surgery. It was more like some guy was stabbing my chakras with a trident of some sort or spear, and it was agonizing, and I woke up from it a different person. But I don’t want to talk about me. I’m just maybe adding that to say that these things do happen to other people as well. Irene just passed a question. Was there ever a physical reason revealed for the 90-pound condition you were in?

Debra: Good question, because I was going to —

Rick: By Mayo or somebody else, yeah.

Debra: No, they did not. And we can get frustrated with that. People have diagnoses that people can’t figure out. So I questioned that to the spirit, to the divine, to God, whatever you want to call your God. And I said, “Why did I never find out the name?” And I heard, “Because you would own it.”

Rick: The name of the malady?

Debra: What was going on. So let’s say I have a disease and now I own it. I’m going to say, “That was part of me. I’m going to keep that. I went through that.” Now not knowing it has never been a part of me.

Rick: So you got better after this. I should think that the people at Mayo would have wondered, “What happened? What was it? How did she come out of that?”

Debra: It was hard at Mayo because Mayo was trying to do all these different tests, but they weren’t listening to me because they couldn’t figure it out. And so afterwards I ended up going back to them and saying, “You know what? You want to bill me for all this money, but you guys, if I would have stayed under your care, I would have died.” And they just washed it all away so that I wouldn’t continue with it.

Rick: Interesting. Now somewhere in your book I heard you talking about having your pancreas squeezed out and also having some kind of rod put in your body. Was that this incident?

Debra: Yes, yes, yes. It felt like as if there was this rod that went in. And think about a strawberry trying to go through a straw and you having to push that through. That’s how much pain it was.

Rick: And the rod was like in your spine or into your abdomen?

Debra: Well, I felt like it was going right into my right side. So I say in the pancreas area.

Rick: Okay.

Debra: Without knowing that it was the pancreas.

Rick: The pancreas is on the left.

Debra: Well, it was here on the right.

Rick: Okay, your liver is over here. But anyway, it doesn’t matter. I don’t want to nit-pick.

Debra: I got it wrong. [Laughter]

Rick: Okay, so now this being that you were sitting at the table with in the dome and signing the contract and all, you identified that as God. Now, my conception of God is all-pervading intelligence that surpasses the vastness of the universe and is just omnipresent and all that business. But then again, there are many traditions that also speak of a personal manifestation or aspect of God that one could actually perceive and have a form and communicate with. I

Irene:The right side of your body contains the head of the pancreas.

Rick: Okay. Good, you were right. Irene just looked it up. I guess the pancreas is kind of on the left, but it pokes over, and the head of it ends up on the right side as well.

Debra: That’s what I’ve always felt. So when you said that, I’m like, how could I be wrong? It’s making me think. How could I be wrong? Thank you for doing that.

Rick: Yeah, so the tail of the pancreas is on the left side, but it goes across, and the head of it comes over to the right side. All right, good. I

Irene:So you don’t know what you’re saying.

Rick: No, I didn’t say I did.

Debra: No, that’s great, though. That’s good for the viewers to hear.

Rick: Yeah. So anyway, how do you know this was God? What made you feel this was God? Do you feel like it was sort of a personal representative or representation of God, or what?

Debra: Okay, so first of all, people always want to say, well, can you describe your God? What did he look like? And I’m like, well, it can come in many forms for us to recognize, right? That’s how I feel. So I’m not going to just say what I felt. What came to me is what I recognized. And when I say recognized, it was this immediate knowingness within my soul, this immediate love connection that I felt that you can’t feel here. You’re just surrounded with so much love, and that came from that being. And so I know that that light and that love of that being is in each of us. We’re born with that. And so there was no question. It was just like I was home. I was meeting the person that created me that was there.

Rick: Nice. So someone might think, well, maybe it was an angel or an archangel or something like that. But you’re saying it was really sort of God in a form of some kind.

Debra: Well, it’s interesting you ask that question, because I did too. And I said, well, how do I really know it was you, God? It’s like I’m the only one that can make that decision.

Rick: He said that?

Debra: Yeah.

Rick: That he was the only one who could make the decision for you to be healed and go back?

Debra: Well, when you’re going to pass, when you’re not going to pass, he’s the one in charge. So it’s not the angels that make that decision.

Rick: Okay. And, of course, lots of people who have NDEs, almost all of them it sounds like, meet some kind of being that says, no, it’s not your time, or you better come back. So do you think that that might be some kind of form of God in every case?

Debra: Of course.

Rick: Some kind of gatekeeper, but not necessarily the big guy.

Debra: Exactly. Well, you know, we all take tasks, right? And if there’s a lot going on and he sends an angel down to be with you or to protect — I feel like an angel held me in that car that day.

Rick: Yeah.

Debra: I feel they’re working. It’s his team. So if they deliver the message, they’re delivering the message. The message is coming from the higher source.

Rick: Yeah, it reminds me of the story of Jesus and the Roman centurion. You remember that story where the Roman soldier, who was an officer of some kind, said — wanted Jesus to help intercede with some family health emergency or something. And Jesus said, “Okay, go take me to your house.” And he said, “No, no, you don’t have to go to my house.” He said, “I’m a commander of soldiers. If I tell them to do something, I don’t have to go there. They just do it. And you have that kind of authority yourself over the spiritual realm, so you don’t have to physically go there. Just get it done.”

Debra: Exactly. And that’s how it works in my healings, too.

Rick: Tell us more about that. Okay. So I developed the healing by following what God wanted me to do, right? So when I first started, I would see people in person and people distant. And so at the Logo Center that I was ordained in, they had a Faraday cage. The Faraday cage had like a metal pyramid inside.

Rick: Explain to people what a Faraday cage is. Faraday cage is the copper lining so that no outside interference can come in, which was beautiful to start there because you know that anything that’s being worked on in there, we felt like was the divine coming through. But what ended up happening is they sold the church and I said, “Are you kidding me?” And I heard, “Well, it can’t be about the room,” which makes sense.

Rick: Above the room?

Debra: About the room.

Rick: Oh, in other words, you shouldn’t need a Faraday cage?

Debra: Right. You don’t need a Faraday cage to do this.

Rick: Right. But people were starting to believe that. They were lining up.

Rick: Yeah, just like you don’t need incense and fancy something or other in order to meditate. You can just do it.

Rick: Exactly.

Debra: So that was kind of like, “Okay, I get it.” But anyway, so how my healings work is I do them all remotely right now because I find like when people are not there, it’s even more powerful. Because, for instance, let me just kind of walk you through one. A lady contacts me. I know nothing about her. And I say, “I just need your full body picture of you. We’re going to have this session at 11 o’clock. It’s going to happen on Tuesday. You live in another country. Whatever time that is, you can rest if you’re sleeping, if you’re working. Whatever happens, I’m going to start at 11 my time.” Now, if they can be present at the moment, it’s amazing because they might feel the exact same things and see the exact same things I’m seeing on their end. Okay? Now, there’s no right or wrong way to have a healing. They might feel nothing at all. I never know what they’re going to feel. So now I have this woman and I go in. This is her day and I kind of prep the room. And then I go back into the healing room and I say my prayers, basically saying, giving gratitude for what’s going to transpire because I have no idea what’s going to transpire. And then I open myself up as the instrument and vessel of the divine to work through me with spiritual surgeons to assist in healing this person. Now, when I heal, they may need a spiritual surgery. They might have emotional issues, physical issues. They might have a grief where they lost a loved one. God will take them on a spiritual journey. Well, they’ll sometimes feel like they’re out of body. Sometimes they’ll feel like they’re just visioning it in their mind when they listen to the recording afterwards. And they’re taken to a space where they get to meet and embrace and be with their loved ones. And they physically can smell them. They physically can feel them. And they have this conversation. Now, while this is all transpiring because that’s a lot that’s going on, right? They’re getting healing. They might be on a spiritual journey. They might have a spiritual surgeon in the room. I’m voicing everything that I’m seeing, feeling, and doing through an audio recording. So when the session is complete, so on this woman, I said, so interesting. My right side feels higher than my left side. We need to like kind of balance that out. And so voicing everything. And then it might come through that, you know, when you were a child, you had trauma. God showing me you were at age four when this took place and you were shamed. So now we’re going to go to this space of hugging that four-year-old, telling her she’s okay, healing at the root issue. So that’s all that happening. When I am all done with the session, I then send the recording to wherever they live, right, through an email. Now they can listen to it. With that woman, what’s fascinating is because I get to listen to the validations afterwards. I have no idea. It’s like, okay, that was really interesting. And then you’re sending it off. Right. She said, had I been in the room with you, you would have noticed that I lost my left breast and this, this side is higher when I lay down. And so that’s why it’s so amazing to have them distant. I’m not picking up on you. I know nothing. Now some people do want to tell me what they’re going through and that’s okay to place that in my prayers prior, but I don’t want to limit it to just that because there might be something else that’s causing that. So we open our hearts or minds or soul to receive everything and all that they deserve. With that being said, I’ve seen beautiful miracles happening. And then I’ve also seen some that have not, and I’ll be like, okay, I really, really thought that person was going to be healed. Well, you’re not in charge. And I have to remember that this isn’t about me. And so I don’t know what each person’s going to receive, but they’re going to receive something. Whether it’s I did a healing in one. I think you might’ve read it in my book about Brenda and she had a healing. I really thought that she was going to be healed and she had bile duct cancer and she was given like, like a month to live and she felt healed completely healed. And she’s like, should I still follow through with my funeral arrangements? And I said, it doesn’t hurt to have them in place. So she got two weeks of feeling healed, but she basically, when I was feeling that I was throwing up bile on my end, I’m like, oh, they’re working in this area. I’m going to throw up this bio. She actually was throwing up bile at that same time. So that shows you how in sync the energy is. Right. And she ended up passing, but she’s come through Suzanne Giesemann because that’s who sent her to me. And she works with her now and says, you know, I left with no baggage. I was healed. So I could transition so much easier. And, you know, there’s been so many other sessions as well where it’s like mental illness, gone, like lifted. And he or she went through 20 years of therapy and, and even going into mental institutions, tried to commit suicide twice. And in one session, it’s all gone. So, and I’ve had other clients too, that have lost loved ones where I think I have a YouTube of her. She had back surgery. She had discs. So the spiritual surgeons worked on her back. Well, during the surgery, her daughter in spirit came. So she describes that she saw this, the spiritual surgeon wearing the mask. She could say that it was a woman. And then she saw her daughter and heard her daughter and felt her daughter hold her hand. I mean, it’s just so miraculous what happens in each session.

Rick: Well, there are a number of things in there. I want to have you elaborate on one is that I, and I got this from your book also that you often go through a lot of physical stuff while you’re doing healings. Like you just mentioned throwing up bile and you mentioned many other things in your book. Does that take quite a toll on you having to experience the, something similar to what the people are suffering from?

Debra: It can during the session. Cause I I’m feeling the pain and I I’m starting to burp. I can feel the elevation changing right here. The frequency. Okay. So when they start to work on me, I call it a blessing because when I feel the pain, I can’t deny that that’s where that pain’s taken place. And that’s where those spiritual surgeons are working. When the session is complete, I always say it’s no longer a part of me, but with that said, your body still went through it. Right. So you could be tired. I might have to lay some of the hard ones I’ve had to lay down for the remainder of the day. So I’ll only do one session a day. But then sometimes there might be a hard one where my body went through a lot and I don’t really feel like my body is fine. So you never really know, but it takes, I have to eat really healthy. I have to exercise. I have to have balance, you know, in every other aspect of my life. There’s a lot that goes through it than just the session. So, yeah.

Rick: So I guess a couple of things. So the spiritual surgeons couldn’t just go and heal somebody out of the blue, the way they did with you when you were in Mayo, they kind of need an intermediary, at least for the person to kind of like tune in and cooperate and want the healing and so on. So I guess you serve that function. And then maybe you could also explain. Is it the same surgeons every time Irene wants to know that work with you? Or is it a whole collection?

Debra: They’re different. They’re different for every different position of the body. Right. It’s like,

Rick: oh, so they’re neurosurgeons and surgeons.

Debra: Right. I can remember talking to Evan Alexander again. Like I just did a brain healing and they use this technique. And they use this tool. And I described the tool. He’s like, oh yeah. And I’m like, well, you’re so matter of fact. Oh yeah. Like I’m like, really? Oh yeah. It looks like. So it’s sometimes I’ll actually see the tool that they’re using, but basically what. What I’m seeing is different nurses coming in. Right. I’m seeing different doctors come in, but I do know that God works through them. So because some people go, well, I don’t want different entities working on me, but God works through all of them at the same time, having that divine connection with you speaking to you. Because the words that come through are directly coming as messages of maybe things that you went through in your life, things, lessons that need to be healed trauma. So while I’m speaking about this happening, I’m now also speaking about things that have happened in your life. There’s just so much. Yeah.

Rick: In Hinduism, they have these celestial beings that they call the Ashwin’s who are like the divine physicians. And so what it, what it kind of sounds like here is that there’s a whole profession on the other side of divine or spiritual physicians who actually just like on earth have specialties and subspecialties and, and, and they’re running around tending to people, earthly people.

Debra: Well, it’s interesting. Cause somebody asked father Tracy, what are you going to do? And you go to heaven. And he says, I’m going to help people on earth. Like I did here.

Rick: Nice.

Debra: And so we think about it. Maybe those spiritual surgeons are like, well, that was my passion. That was my mission here on earth. I want to continue that on the other.

Rick: So that’s a good point. Yeah. They might’ve been earthly doctors. That’s cool. Irene, you have a question. I’ve got to pass the mic to Irene

Irene:People that needed heart surgery. Would it be the same heart surgeon or would, or would they each do individuals kind of, you know, have an affinity for certain surgeons?

Debra: Well, it’s interesting. I’m not the one that calls upon the surgeons. You know, I’m not the one that orchestrates. I’m just, I’m, I’m walking into the healing room as the proxy. I’m the patient. So God’s bringing everyone else that’s going to be there.

Rick: Right. Whoever orchestrates.

Debra: So I remove my human as a side, God orchestrates the session. I see a beam of light coming down. I always say, imagine a beam of light coming down and going right into your solar plexus. And that’s going to hold you in this room. We’re going to all three become one.

Rick: Yeah. So just as I was saying with father, Nathan Castle helps stuck souls crossover. You have a different function, which is helping people heal again, with the intercession or aid of other people on the other side who, who, who perform certain tasks. So it just seemed that there are just two examples right there of the fact that apparently these beings on the other side need a human being as an anchor point or a conduit or an aid or something in order to intercede more effectively with people’s lives. They couldn’t probably do it as well without you.

Debra: Right. And it’s, it’s taken me a long time to get to this space, right? To, because there’s a lot of trust that goes with this. You have to have a direct connection. You have to have that trust. And, and I know that I had to walk the walk to prove that I really would stand and do this mission. So just by signing that line didn’t mean that that was the only thing had to go through. I had to continue to heal myself and go to deep things that were within me that I had to heal with the help of the divine. I had to, I lost my former husband. We had a wonderful marriage, but this was just far too greater for him to walk.

Rick: T0 weird for him or something. Yeah.

Debra: So I lost all stability that was around me. And so everything in my life changed. And was I willing to make that change to do this work? And I, I said, I stood in my truth.

Rick: Yeah.

Debra: That’s what I did.

Rick: People are often tested that way. I mean, most of Jesus’s disciples were fishermen and stuff. And he said, you know, you want to be a fisherman. You want to come with me? Give it up. Yeah.

Debra: And pets can be healed too.

Rick: Yeah. I imagine they can.

Debra: Yeah. I did one for this Suzanne Wilson. I don’t know if you know her, she’s a medium, but her dog. And they weren’t too sure what was going on with, with Baron. So this is fascinating. So I go into the session. I have Baron’s picture and now I’m hearing Baron talk to me. And I’m like, what? And I’m like, okay, well, our language is universal. What do you want? He’s like, I want lavender oil. You want lavender oil? I don’t bring oils into my healing. I want lavender oil. Okay. I’m sure I have some lavender somewhere. And I did. And so I rubbed it on my hands. I could, you feel better. He’s like, yep. So we went in and, and it was told exactly what was going on with his body, even to something in his, like his toe. Right. That the owner didn’t know. So when the healing was done, it was like, Baron knew. You laid there the entire time. And to the time that I text her, it’s done. Baron got up. Right. And so she listens to it and she says, I’m falling off my chair. I put lavender oil on Baron’s head every night before he goes to bed. So I said, I wonder if every dog is like that. Let me test this. Right. Could this be just something that they all like? So I put it out for my dog and it was like, get that away from me. I don’t even want to smell it. It even sees the jar and it runs. So it was just for Baron and that relaxed him. And so they, and it ended up being everything that was told is what transpired with the vets.

Rick: That’s interesting. So another thing you said a few minutes ago, you were talking about during a healing people very often. You didn’t specify how often, but people very often have like out of body experiences or they see beings on the other side and they, it sounds like they open up to a whole mystical realm that is not normal for them. Is that how common is that among people you’re healing?

Debra: Almost all of them. So, because what happens is whether they’re just present in the room and I feel the divine coming in, they might have this connection of spirit to spirit where you’re, where you’re feeling that love that’s undeniable and they’re start crying and then they hear words. God might say, I want to, we’re going to take a series of three deep breaths. You’re going to come out and you’re going to walk with me and I’m going to take you to space. And then when they get to a space, sometimes they’ll say, look at the landscaping, look what’s around you, see what you can see. I did want a little girl that was from Russia and she told her daddy because she didn’t listen to it yet. And I’m telling her, look, what do you see? What do you see? What kind of things do you see? And she’s like, I saw dolphins jumping. I saw this beautiful water. So she was seeing the landscape that I was telling her before she even listened to say, look, so we were connected on the soul to soul level already. But sometimes they’ll just go to a space too. I had one, one that was really, really amazing. This one was taken to the space and a big angel came. So the divine is standing next to her and this angel starts to walk forward and scaring little baby and puts the baby into her arms. I now see it’s a girl and I get to witness. I get to be there. I get to watch and observe and describe and talk with what I’m seeing was happening. And God puts his arm around her and says, there is no judgment. Stop judging yourself. What you needed to do is what you needed to do.

Rick: What does she have an abortion or something?

Debra: So what happened is she called me and said, I didn’t mean my husband had to make a choice. This was early on. We had just found out we were pregnant. We didn’t know the sex yet. Right. But I just found out a cancer and I was going to die. The baby would have died if I didn’t do this. We never told anyone. We thought we’d be judged. We didn’t tell our family. We didn’t tell anyone. So with you saying this, how would you know? And it relieved her of all that guilt. And that was some of the pain that she was holding on to that was causing her to have issues in her body.

Rick: Interesting. Yeah.

Debra: So it’s things like that. I mean, I’ll say things like when you were seven, this is what happened to you. I had this one woman that was had she didn’t think she was going to survive even to make it to the session. And she had, I think, bone cancer. And it was shown that I saw her as a little girl. And then I saw her standing next to it. So I was kind of confused. Like, are we going to the girl? Is that her? What’s going on? Well, then I heard, you know, this is her as a little girl. So at the age of seven, your mother was sick. Your dad was abusive and he got so angry at you. He took you outside and he shot your puppy in front of you.

Rick: You saw this and said that to her.

Debra: Yes. Now remember,

Rick: that’s pretty specific.

Debra: Right. So now I’m going to when you’re done with that session, you’re like, holy cow, you know, I’m saying some pretty heavy stuff. There comes that trust. Right. There comes that voice. This isn’t my voice. This is my message. Excuse me. I’m going to get a little drink. So she emails back and says, I’ve forgotten about that because I pushed it way, way down. I thought as a child, they just dealt with it. But my mother was dying and my father was angry and he did. He shot. We had we had several puppies. He shot them. And she goes that that was so traumatic in my life and that healed and she ended up being healed.

Rick: Interesting. So you’re saying the trauma from the shooting of the puppies had been causing her health problems and healing that trauma helped heal the health problems.

Debra: Exactly. And sometimes as a child, we don’t know how to heal. We don’t know how to express. We don’t even know that we’re holding on to like emotions that are hurting us. We don’t even know how to explain that. Right. And so you just continue on going on within your life. But consciously, that’s always there.

Rick: Yeah, there must be. I mean, see, there’s so many millions of people in the world who probably over a billion who have something seriously wrong with them and could use some kind of healing. So, you know, in a way, what you’re doing is just a drop in the bucket. It seems like it’s a really special privilege for someone to get a healing of this sort, considering how many people could potentially use one.

Debra: Right. And like I said to not always will we go to the root problem. I don’t know what’s going to transpire in every session.

Rick: Yeah,

Debra: everyone is different. So I have to walk in because if I humanly tried to control it, it wouldn’t work. Right. I have to I have to totally remove my mind, my body, everything, just be the vessel for everything that’s going to transpire.

Rick: Yeah.

Debra: And so, yeah, it’s miraculous when you hear somebody from Shanghai, China, that was already healed of her with her eyes being healed before she even received the MP for the recording before she even listened to it. Just shows you how energy travels. You can stay in your sacred space. You can receive it.

Rick: Yeah. OK, I actually agree with that. I agree with that and don’t have any comment on it. I mean, distance is not an issue. You know, it’s not it’s not an obstacle.

Debra: No, but everybody wants to be a person. And I’m like, trust me, it’s better not to be.

Rick: Yeah

Debra: I’m not doing them in person.

Rick: You’re not zapping them with your hands or something. There’s something more fun.

Debra: Yeah. And I also was like, you know what? I can get more of a team. And if you’re not in the room, I have no distractions because you’re not going to cough. You’re not going to go cry. You’re not going to do anything, but you can be crying on your end. You can be laying in your bed. You can be wearing pajamas. You could be outside in nature, taking a walk when it’s happening, like whatever you want to do. And so it just it just opens that much more up and available to them. And that’s when people come and then they want to talk about it. And I don’t remember it.

Rick: Yeah

Debra: it’s not my word. So it’s like a deer in headlights. And they’re like, I said, what?

Rick: It’s funny.

Debra: I’ll often say, you know, I know God said something really, really miraculous at the beginning of the tape. When you listen to it, could you write it down for me?

Rick: Do you listen to these tapes yourself after the healing?

Debra: I have gone back to some of them because they were just so there were so many profound messages. I’m like, can I use this? Can I use this? And one of the messages that I’m going to post about, which I really think people really need to hear humanly, we put limitations on ourselves by what we’re diagnosed with. So if you were told that your friend just came down with Alzheimer’s, we’d go, oh, oh, I feel so bad for him because we’re our brain now knows what Alzheimer’s supposed to do. So God says, but you’re limiting yourself to what the science gave a name, a name to it. There is no name to it. So take that. Don’t limit. Get out of the name and just allow me to heal.

Rick: So you’re saying that by imposing that limitation, we more or less solidify the likelihood of Alzheimer’s, whereas if we didn’t, then somehow healing would be more likely.

Debra: Well, think about it. If we own it, you know, a lot of us, a lot of us go and Google everything.

Rick: Right.

Debra: Right. Oh, my gosh. You know, I’m going to have this surgery and they say that it’s going to be awful and I’m going to have, you know, cramping for days or I’m not going to walk or whatever is there. That list now we’re digesting. This is what’s going to happen to me.

Rick: Yeah.

Debra: And so it’s almost kind of like that saying I am everything that follows it. Right. We’ll follow you. And so the I am I am going to have that that pain. I am I’m reading it. I’m digesting it. I’m feeling it. I’ve consciously owning it where don’t give your body that title. OK, the doctor gave me that title. I know what it is. But instead of me owning it, I’m just going to send love to it. But you know what? I know I love you. What do you want me to learn from you? How can I help? Why are you showing up for me? And we all know love heals when you get an embrace from a loved one. You feel good. A child that’s sick. We nourish them through love. Right. We take care of them. So I call them my God is love healings because it’s all about love.

Rick: I’m reminded of Anita Moore Johnny here, you know, you know her story. I’m sure you had like terminal cancer. She was basically on her deathbed. She couldn’t hold her head up. It was like a bowling ball because her muscles are so weak. And she went into this near death experience. And then when she came out within two weeks, she was totally all healed from this terminal cancer. She had and, you know, there’s never been a remission all these years. And she just has this forget it. I’m done with that attitude.

Debra: Right. I went I walked through it.

Rick: Yeah.

Debra: And I did it once. I have this little boy that I know and he is so connected with spirit. And one of the things that he says is, OK, I’m done with this game. Can we play a new one? Isn’t that the best term?

Rick: Right. Yeah.

Debra: We just let’s move on. All right. Yeah. Then they’re done that. Moving on. I love it.

Rick: A couple of questions came in from guests. Let’s see what those are. This is about four of them. So here’s one from a woman or a person in Sweden named Kosh Urdin. Can a child be healed that according to three different shamans is suffering from possession of negative energy? The child was she has Down syndrome. The child was normal but was normal and happy. And then about two years ago, suddenly stopped communicating and started laughing and crying without reason. And they’re getting help from conventional medicine. But these three shamans think that the child is possessed by some negative energy. What do you think about that?

Debra: One hundred percent. You can heal that. I have done it. In fact, I have an army for love group. We meet once a month on Tuesdays. And that was one of the questions somebody asked me that was on the group. And he had felt that he always heard this voice telling him negative things, but they were so real. Like you just hit that person. You just hit that person. You would take his car and go back and look because he really felt he hit that person. Right. Was that real? But he knew when it started happening. He described that to the group. So then another person said, well, I hear those voices, too. So we did a mini healing in live on the gathering, all of us and removed it. Nice. I’ll be putting a link to your army of love group on your batgap page and I’ll take to your Web site and your Facebook and Instagram. And YouTube channels and all that. So people can have to worry about the address right now. You can go to Debra’s batgap page and get all those links. Here’s a question from Karen Werner and Sino, California. What recommendation do you have if someone is experiencing negative energy for two years or what appears to be bad luck? The energy seems to stick. Does one keep plowing through or what might one do?

Debra: OK, so if I would ask, like, is this a friend of hers that she wants healed, but maybe the friend doesn’t want to be healed? You know, like some people want to be in that, like for attention. They like that. Or it sounds like she just is

Rick: Right like maybe herself, her own situation.

Debra: Right. So there’s a lot of layers there. But to answer what I think she’s asking to should she plow through this? She has no choice. Right. She has to continue to go walk forward. How I always say it is imagine yourself in a dark room. Right. And so you have that darkness around you. Now I want you to imagine yourself putting a white bubble around yourself. Put and step into that bubble. Be into that. So light always puts out dark. So if you could even imagine you like in a dark room and now you switch the switch on. OK, so that’s getting the light there for you. Now, if this is something that is really attached, then you need to ask the divine for assistance to come and pull that off. And then your work is to stand in that faith and command it. You’re not a part of me. I don’t want you go away in the name of God. I command you to go away and just keep saying it and say it. I’m only of light. If you’re dark, you got to go away. And in time, it’s just going to be like they’re not listening to me anymore. This is crazy. I’m just going to go find someone else.

Rick: That’s great. Yeah, I mean, her question was a little general and she might have been referring to a lot of different things. But there was a song I remember Cream did a rendition of the song called Born Under a Bad Sign. And the lyric was, if it wasn’t for bad luck, I wouldn’t have no luck at all.

Debra: True

Rick: But a lot of times people create that kind of so-called luck for themselves by hanging around with wrong people or consuming the wrong substances, just creating circumstances in their life that just handicapped.

Debra: They have to change.

Rick: Yeah, right.

Debra: Right. They have to see. I can’t hang out with those people. I have to change this. And so recognize like you’re saying, recognize where you’re at, what the changes are and what you’re learning from this.

Rick: Yeah

Debra: because I believe everything we go through, there’s a lesson. Right. If you learn the lesson, you can pretty much say goodbye to it.

Rick: I remember my father used to chain smoke and, you know, he would say, oh, my sinuses, this humidity and the weather. But he’s chain smoking. My father would keep all the windows because… Oh, did you hear that?

Debra: Yeah, that’s funny.

Rick: Yeah. All right. Let’s do another question here. This one is from Mark Peters. Mark from Santa Clara, California. Do you accept a healing session for a third party without their knowledge? Or does the process only work with the full cooperation of the ailing person?

Debra: Thank you, Mark, for asking that, because I get a lot of questions with people saying, can I do a healing for someone that doesn’t know? The answer is yes. We do prayers for people all the time without them knowing. This is all about love, what your intentions are about love. So I do have a YouTube that shows a woman that had a session for her mother. Her mother was an alcoholic. She was mean. And they’re like, we don’t know what to do anymore. So we did the session and she stopped drinking. And she’s like, not only did you heal her, you gave us a healing by having our mother back. And they never told her mother that she had a healing.

Rick: That’s great. And this is with your whole Army for Love group?

Debra: That was just a session I do

Rick: with you. Yeah. So I do group sessions, group healings, and I do private healings.

Rick: OK. May I ask how much you charge for the healings?

Debra: I don’t like to say.

Rick: All right. Probably says on the website or you could somehow people have to find out what. Yeah, they did. It’s better that they email me what they want. And then we have different things that they can look at.

Rick: OK, great. Here’s a question from Irene here. Do some people have ailments that have less to do with events from the current life? You often refer to the current life events as causes, but some people carry issues from ancestors or from past life karma.

Debra: Yes. So it’s sometimes in a healing. We have to go to magnetically genetics. Right. And the magnetics that we’re aligned with. So think about it this way. We go back in time where one of our ancestors lived in the wartime and the fear that they had and the anxiety that they have and maybe the poor. Right. So now they have anxiety. That anxiety is now coming through the chain of the family and you have anxiety. So we want to now magnetically let that that go. You’re still part of that family, but we don’t want to keep that magnetic just because that was your journey. I don’t need that journey. And so we get rid of that.

Rick: Yeah. That’s another thing that comes up in a lot of different spiritual traditions is sort of ancestral karma, you know, and some traditions have ceremonies and all to dissipate or dissolve that ancestral karma.

Debra: Right. And I believe, you know, there’s not one run or what do you want to say? There’s not just one way to heal. There’s

Rick: Oh

Debra: that’s why we have so many different healers. There’s all different ways.

Rick: Right. OK, here’s another question. This is from Larry Marr from New York. I was talking on the phone a few years ago with a spiritual person. I said, if I had some proof of God, I’d really believe just that a bolt of lightning struck in my backyard. It shook the guy on the phone and me with a huge bang. Coincidence? Not sure.

Debra: I would say when you say, was it a coincidence? Then it’s not a coincidence.

Rick: Yeah.

Debra: You know, it’s those things that are unknown that we question and you just have to just accept the knowingness. And you laugh at that and it shook him. I would ask him back, like, how did you feel at that moment? Like, whoa. Right. It got your attention. And that was what it was supposed to do.

Rick: Yeah. My sense of the proof of God, which is to throw this in for Larry’s sake, is that you should look at anything in nature. Look at a leaf. Look at a look at an ant. You know, look at a cell under a microscope. And you’re observing incredibly vast, intricate intelligence having fabricated this thing that could not possibly have arisen to accident. And then and then consider that this that anywhere you went in the entire universe, if you look closely enough, you’d see that intelligence at work or at play. And there you have it. I mean, Omni the presence of divine intelligence, if you want to call it divine.

Debra: Exactly. That’s beautiful.

Rick: Yeah. OK. And look back at some notes you sent me and people, people are sending in some good questions. So feel free to send in more if you if you wish. I didn’t quite ask you this. You were talking about one 1/21/12 when you had that conversation with God. And you’re suggesting I asked you what this heavenly place looked like and what did God look like?

Debra: Yeah. So that’s why I was describing that that beam of white. It was like trans, almost like translucent right in front of you. And you could see the outline like wearing the robe. And I saw the eyes. I did see this incredibly blue, blue, blue, blue eyes. But that doesn’t I don’t want you limited that to what God looks like because comes in many forms for you to recognize. So that’s why I don’t usually say what my God look like is the same God your God’s going to look like.

Rick: Yeah. Some people even say that like when you die, you know, Hindus might see Krishna and Christians might see Jesus and Muslims might see Muhammad. And, you know, that somehow we’re presented with something that we’re going to be familiar with.

Debra: That’s what I believe. Yeah, I believe that. I believe that because it’s like what we recognize. And people say, well, what church is the right church? Right. And it’s like some people say, well, my church, you know, I’m Catholic. That’s the most important. And it’s like, well, I’m not going to judge you because I look at them as all schools. Right. And if we’re all going to learn and we get that connection, that’s where we need to be. That’s why when you do pass, you’re going to recognize it for what you learned.

Rick: Yeah. When somebody starts talking that way to me, I start talking about astronomy. There are more stars in the universe than there are grains of sand on all the beaches in the world. And we’re now finding that most of those stars have planets around them and a fairly good percentage of planets are in the so-called Goldilocks zone. They could potentially support life. So there are probably trillions of advanced civilizations, each of them probably having developed numerous religions and most of those religions probably thinking that theirs was the only one.

Debra: Right. It’s fascinating when you start thinking outside the box. Right. What else exists out there?

Rick: Yeah, I think it’s kind of an ego thing. My way is the best way. It makes you sort of feel.

Debra: Well, and that’s the thing. When we do this type of work, we have to remove our ego. Yeah. You know, it’s not going to work if you’re going to come in with ego. If I said I was the one healing people, it’s not going to work.

Rick: Yeah. I mean, yeah, because Debra Martin can’t do something to somebody in Shanghai or some place like that. If your life depended on it.

Debra: Right. I wouldn’t know them. These things. Yeah, exactly.

Rick: OK, I mean, sending another question. So you mentioned that this healing technique is, as far as you know, no one else is in the world is doing it. You just feel like it’s some unique ability. I mean, obviously, there are all kinds of healers and some of them do it remotely, like Reiki healing and various other things. But you haven’t run into anybody else who seems to do this in the way you do. Well, I say that it’s not being done anywhere else in the world because no one would have the same connection as me. I’m solely having my own connection work at God working through me as an individual, as the instrument. So if another person decides, OK, I’m going to do this similar technique, it’s still going to be different because we each have our own way of belief, our own way of trust, our own way of interpreting what’s happening. So I can give all my techniques that I’m doing and somebody might say, well, I’m going to try that and maybe it’ll work for them. I don’t know. I can’t teach it because it’s like a trust that I have built in a relationship. And so they may, too. But I really believe then we still are doing it differently because we’re both individually different.

Rick: Sure. Just like every composer is going to be different or every thumb print is different. We just all have our unique spin on things, even though there might be some similarities.

Debra: But as I don’t know of anyone doing anything like this.

Rick: Right. OK, here’s a question from Tim Reeves in the UK. He has been in recovery from for 13 years from alcohol and working. He’s working in a 12 step program, but he cannot get rid of the resentment towards his father for not being there. He feels that the rejection trauma is still a part of him and affects him physically. How can he heal from this?

Debra: It’s interesting because that’s probably what started his alcoholism in the first place. So he’s already done the first step of getting rid of that. So good job, because that’s a big deal. Going deep is having to go to those spaces that hurt. We have to feel the heal. We have to see those things. But I want you to if you could right now, you’re listening. Just close your eyes and see your dad right there, whether he is alive or on the other side. What your dad what would be said to you would be similar to that was his journey. What he did and what he said to you was because of the own anger and things that he held within him. He did not mean to put the shame on you, even though you think that he did because you digested it. And that’s how he acted out. But now I want you to see him and hand this back over to him and say it didn’t serve you. Here Take this from me. You take it back. This was your journey. I no longer want it. I learned from it. I walked through it and I’m healed from it. So thank you very much.

Rick: Yeah. My dad was an alcoholic and, you know, abusive and all that stuff. So I went through a lot of a lot of rough things as a kid. And my mother was in and out of mental hospitals during most of my adolescence. But, you know, I think if I were in his shoes, he was a sensitive man, a professional artist, and he had to go through World War Two. And he was a machine gunner in the tail of a bomber. And he saw his friends blown to bits and all kinds of things. So, you know, I mean, got to cut him some slack. You know, I could I was pretty messed up when I was a teenager. And if I had had to go to war on top of that, I don’t know if I ever would have recovered. So, you know, obviously, I didn’t think this way when I was in the midst of all that trauma when I was a kid.

Debra: Right. Right. But now looking back, I think, all right, dad, I hope you’re doing well. And I don’t know if I could have done any better if I had gone through what you went through. So there’s a lot of forgiveness and appreciation for all the good things you did. I think that that would be maybe good advice for this Tim fellow.

Debra: Well, and also it created you to be who you are now, too. Right. You learned a lot from it. But, you know, people that have been abused, it’s like, how do I forgive somebody that has abused me?

Rick: Right.

Debra: You know, they’re not all there. They’re having their own issues. And it doesn’t you can forgive, but you don’t have to forget.

Rick: Right. And forgiveness. I mean, I guess it’s one thing to say, oh, sometimes you hear these things like I remember about 10 years ago, some gunman came into an Amish community in Pennsylvania and killed a whole lot of people. And like the next day on the news, they’re saying we forgive him. And, you know, and it’s like, do they really? Is that the depth of their faith that they’re actually I mean, isn’t there going to be some kind of process or are they just saying that?

Debra: I think sometimes they have to. Right. Because it’s part of their healing. If you know this guy was not all there and we just need to surround him and love so that when he goes the other side, you know, he can heal. But, you know, what he did, we can’t control. So, if we’re going to hold on that anger of what he did is not going to serve me or my loved one that passed from it.

Rick: Yeah. I think they were like baking pies and bringing it to his parents.

Debra: I remember that.

Rick: Things like that. I thought, wow, that is so beautiful. Beautiful example

Debra: of love, love and action.

Rick: Yeah. Earth is a challenging place sometimes.

Debra: It is.

Rick: You know, I mean, think of the Sandy Hook parents or, you know, various other things like that. I think it’s I mean, just today I received an email from somebody, and I had made some comment in an email about God. And she said, well, God is obviously not in Ukraine. And I thought, you know, God is totally in Ukraine and Ukraine is in God. I mean, God doesn’t have holes in him. He’s omnipresent. But, you know, it’s easy for people to see the difficulties in the world sometimes and think there couldn’t possibly be any kind of benign, you know, Lord of the universe because there’s too much cruelty in life.

Debra: In times like that, the people, the Ukrainians are seeing the blessings. That’s what’s giving them the courage to continue to walk through. And that’s what we need to do. It’s not like if there was a God, everything’s going to be perfect. You know, we are human and we cause these things to happen. It’s not God creating these things for us. We do it to ourselves. But in the midst of it all, you’ll see like an angel in the cloud. I’ve seen them posting things like that. Or you see that they were all protected at one moment. And, you know, we I’ve done many prayers for Ukraine and I can see that the power of prayer. Look at how well they are doing. We have to see the blessings. Sometimes we get caught up in seeing all the negative, negative, negative, negative, that we stop seeing the blessings that are right in front of us. And I really believe that they’re seeing the blessings in order to get through it.

Rick: Yeah. I also think sometimes people anthropomorphize God and think, OK, well, if God were really a good guy, then it would be all unicorns and butterflies and we wouldn’t have all this negative stuff. But it seems to me that if you’re going to have a universe, you have to have polarities. You have to have pairs of opposites. Planets have to get hit by asteroids. Stars have to explode in order to have heavy elements to make up our bodies. And probably people were killed when those stars exploded or beings. So it’s just, you know, God is not necessarily what we in our simple little way might idealize that he should be. I say he it’s obviously not a he.

Debra: Me, too. I always say he, too. But I think, too, when we think about it, it’s like if everything was always just one way, we wouldn’t see the blessings. We wouldn’t see the miracles. We wouldn’t. We’d stop learning.

Rick: Yeah. Right. Yeah. That’s an interesting point. Let’s dwell on that a little bit. So, about the learning value of difficulties. You alluded to it a couple of times, but let’s why don’t you say some more about that?

Debra: OK, so I went through cancer. Right. And I get cancer. I’m a healer. I’m healing hundreds of people. Are you kidding me? Like I’ve been through car accidents. I’ve been through like I think I’ve been through enough. So you’ve got to walk through your emotions. Not telling you to put your emotions aside. Emotions are real. And so I’d walk through like, are you kidding me? This is really happening right now. Like, do I tell people they’re going to think like, well, if you’re a healer and you get cancer, you know, and I was like, well, you have to be open to the truth. So, I said, all right, I’m going to have this this journey with cancer. And what I can do. So as a healer, do I just I was stage four. So do I now go and through the radiation and the chemo or do I just heal for my own self? Everybody’s different. But for my own self, I heard from spirit, say, use every tool in the toolbox because we created that for you. OK, so I’m going to walk through chemo and go, oh, gosh, I need to bless these pills. You want me to bless these pills? I don’t want to digest these bills. Nineteen of them. And I would do every day one pill at a time. I would bless it. Thank you. And as I kept doing that, I was now OK with the fact I was taking it. Radiation. That’s scary. I hear, oh, this is this is going to end up hurting. You know, you’re going to have side effects. And I’m like, I just need to be in the present. So I my radiation time was my God time. God gave me the name Army for Love from my radiation. Build your army around you. Who’s going to be there to support you, to love you, to be walk with you. But know at the same time that number four that I have spirit is around you. They walk in front of you to guide you. They’re behind you to catch you in the walk beside you to lift you. And so I built my army. But as I was going through cancer, you know, we always hear fight that cancer. You know, you know, you can do this kick its ass. Right. And I was like, it doesn’t feel right now. If I do love healings, I’m going to send love to the cancer. So, I decided to embrace my body with love. Wow, you’re magnificent. Look what you’ve been doing for me all these years. You know, I don’t know what you’re here for. So now I talk to my cancer. What lesson do you want me to learn? The possible lesson, do you want me to learn out of you? So as I walked through it, I was giving grace. Gratitude really helps when you’re in a state of your body being frustrated. If you’re frustrated because your body’s not doing what it wants to do or you can’t walk or you’re sick or you can’t eat. Frustration is resistance. You don’t you want to send it love instead and walk through it. So, I ended up with the lesson in the end. I used to call my cancer. OK, you’re the beast inside me. And at the end, I called it my beauty in the beast. As I saw the beauty that it came to show me and what it showed me was I always felt I had enough compassion for people when I was healing them. I had no idea what people went through with cancer. I had no idea. I was healing people from the outside, looking in. Now that I’ve had it, I’m walking with them. I’ve done that journey. I know what they went through. I know their fears. I know what they they think. And I just say, ask it. What do you want to learn from it? So that when I was done, I said, thank you and goodbye.

Rick: That’s interesting. Yeah. I’m glad you mentioned the thing about getting the conventional treatment, because I have friends who I want. One of my dearest friends in this life died of colon cancer, and she was fooling around with alternative things for a long time, whereas if she’d gone and gotten the traditional treatment early and they caught it early, which they could have when she started having symptoms, she probably wouldn’t have died. And, you know, I have friends who died of covid who didn’t want to get vaccinated and all. And it’s just so unnecessary. You know.

Debra: Well, and that’s why I call my book Doctors, Faith and Courage, because it’s everything combined.

Rick: Yeah. Whatever works.

Debra: Yeah. And some people don’t have faith. Right. But they have their doctors. You have to have faith in your doctors. So you do have a little faith. I will, you know, call you on that one.

Rick: And that is not to say that there have been horrendous outcomes from the pharmaceutical industry. And, you know

Debra: exactly.

Rick: They’ve rightfully been sued for billions of dollars in some cases and all that. So, but you just can’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. You have to sort of be nuanced and say, all right, they’ve done some terrible things, but they’ve also saved hundreds of millions of lives. I mean, 300 million people died of smallpox in the 20th century alone. But now there’s a vaccine and hardly anybody ever does anymore.

Debra: It’s here for you, not against you. Yeah. It was created for you. And there’s better results from having it than not. Right. It’s just that that’s the facts. And you have to look at that and just say, you know, do what’s right for you. But there should be no judgments either way. Yeah. And there are adverse effects from treatments that in some cases that in general help people. But sometimes they kill people or, you know, harm people. And it’s a numbers game kind of thing. You know, you go with the odds, I guess. And the odds are pretty good in the case of many of these things. I say go with your intuition because you’ll have a knowingness within if you really sit and be present with yourself. My intuition was telling me to use every tool in the toolbox. That’s my intuition is God speaking to me.

Rick: Yeah.

Debra: I think if you just if you go with your brain and your ego and this toughness, it’s not going to get you anywhere. But if you go to that intuition, what do you feel in that heart? What do you feel? What’s really right for you? You won’t be led wrong.

Rick: You know, the story about the guy in the flood that calls out to God for help. You know, that’s. Yeah. Tell it real quick. So first he called the waters are rising and he says, help me. So, a boat comes along. He says, no, no, I don’t need the boat. God’s going to help me. And then the water gets higher and like, you know, something else comes along. Finally, a helicopter comes. I don’t need it. God’s going to help me. And finally, he drowns. He goes to heaven. He said, God, where were you? I asked for help. He said, hey, I sent you a couple of boats and a helicopter.

Debra: That’s how it is. Right. You have to see the blessings within that surround you. That’s there for you.

Rick: Yeah.

Debra: You know, sometimes we block them because we just think it’s one way. It’s not just one way.

Rick: Yeah. I guess obviously a person. Well, you already talked about people enlisting your services to help a loved one who didn’t even know she was being helped. The alcoholic woman. So that’s interesting. Do you sometimes. Well, I guess you already covered this about. I mean, what percentage, let’s say, of your healing sessions are done for people who don’t even know they’re getting them or who wouldn’t have come to you willingly. But say, all right, I’ll do it if you’re paying for it or whatever. And some loved one has it done for them. And how does their how do their results compare with those who are gung ho and totally believe in what you’re doing?

Debra: You know, I don’t really compare them because each is different. One person that could be so gung ho still might not receive exactly what their miracle they’re looking for, because I believe miracle comes in many different forms. Like Brenda, you know, we thought she was completely healed, and she got a different form of a miracle. So, do a lot of people come? I get that. I get that pretty often. And a lot of times they’ll do they’ll place them in a group healing. And that’s what this woman did, too. Now, the other woman actually had a private for her, but it just depends on what you want to do.

Rick: How many people are in the group healings?

Debra: I don’t limit it. So I could have anywhere from 11 to I could have 25. The more that gather, we’re always that same intention. Right. You hear that the more they gather, you that energy just kind of bounces. And I find that the more that there are like in the groups, I’m like, just like, here we go. You know, this is awesome because we’re gathering around the world and that’s just like electrifies the vibrations in the room is just full. And so it really doesn’t matter how many are there.

Rick: Yeah.

Debra: but I have all their pictures and everybody touches my body. So, they’re all going to receive at the same time.

Rick: What do you mean they touch your body?

Debra: I lay their picture instead of on my abdomen near my body.

Rick: I see. I see.

Debra: All the way around me. Yeah, but they will. It’s interesting. I’ll get feedback and be like, oh, wow, there were five people that had a knee injury and they were healed of their knee injury. So it’s like God forms what he’s going to work. All right. We’re going to get the knee surgeons, get the people with the knees here today.

Rick: Yeah. So, you’re saying really that the group healings aren’t a diluted version of the individual healings that can even be more effective, perhaps.

Debra: The difference is, is you’re not getting an individual message. You’re not getting individual one on one session. So the words that come through, I say on them as if they’re coming through to you. But they’re being said to the group. I’m not going to just pick up your picture and say this is for you. Right. So, there is a big difference. And but I’ve seen great results with both.

Rick: For some reason, these days, a lot of people keep telling me about Dr. Joe Dispenza. Are you familiar with his work? Yeah. And he has all these healings going on. And apparently there is some kind of a higher, higher being intercession or involvement of which is perhaps facilitating the healing of all these people.

Debra: It’s like decoding. It’s like changing your brain because it’s all about because they will work on the brain as well. Our brains like a computer. Right. And if it starts to spin like we have issues with our computer, we have to reboot it. We have to shut it down. So, if our brain is constantly saying, I am sick, I’m sick, I’m sick, I’m sick, I’m sick. And so, we have to reboot that.

Rick: Yeah.

Debra: So I think, that’s what he’s doing. A lot of be rebooting and resetting.

Rick: It’s funny. I was in India one time for four months. And for the first couple of months, I was sick, mainly just congestion and sometimes fevers and this and that, some dysentery or something. And but people would ask me how I was doing. I said, oh, lousy. My lungs are. And I complained a little bit and reached a certain point which I said, I’m going to try and experiment. So people started, you know, how you doing? I would say, oh, I’m feeling great. You know, I’m really, really doing well. And within a few days, I was actually better. I wasn’t sick for the rest of my stay there. I don’t know if that was coincidental.

Debra: Oh no, that’s because you’re telling your body and your body is vibrating off of how you’re really, you know, you’re bringing joy and life to your body when you say it.

Rick: Yeah.

Debra: Right. You’re not like, oh, look at me. Oh, look at me. There’s a difference. And I have to say to you, like, God has a sense of humor, like he really does. There’ll be some things that will come through and I’ll just start laughing. I’m like, oh, I have to tell you this. And we’ll all laugh at it. Like, for one, I’ll tell you this one story with the mental illness. I’m like, OK, this is kind of strange, but it’s kind of fun, too. We’re going to go on this spiritual journey, and I need you to hang on because we’re going to hang on to an umbrella like Mary Poppins. We go right. And so, I’m like laughing like we’re floating up to this another dimension on a Mary Poppins umbrella. Well, that was really important to her because she was from Germany, and she learned English by watching Mary Poppins. They call her Mary Poppins because the way she packs her bags when she travels. And so, Mary Poppins is like a big thing for her. And so, the fact that God used that tool allowed her to know that it wasn’t me speaking.

Rick: I wonder what supercalifragilisticexpialidocious is in German?

Debra: That’s funny.

Rick: That must have been a tough one. We have a little bit of time left if you want. I think another question came in, but it’s over on Irene’s computer. Let me just see if I can see it here. She left the room. This is from Janice Kern in Colorado. Oh, I think you just covered it. Are individual healings as effective as group healings? Can one join a group session if you’re booked out for several months or a year?

Debra: What’s wonderful is a lot of people join the group because they feel like it’s activating and starting and setting in, like it’s preparing them for their big healing that’s coming so that they will join before.

Rick: So, in other words, they could do some group ones for a while and while waiting for their individual one.

Debra: Exactly. In fact, I’ve had one lady, that’s all she’s done is groups. And she’s done one only sometimes I do every other month. Sometimes we were doing it depends. So like she may have done 12 or 10 in a year. Right. And she’s learned so much. You can see her spirituality that’s open. She now is like, oh, as soon as you taste the medicine, because we’ll get it administered medicine to from the spiritual surgeons. She’s like before you even say it, I can feel it. I can taste it just like you. So she’s so connected and in sync with me because she’s used to how I work. Now she’s taking it on just instant. It’s beautiful to watch.

Rick: That’s interesting. She’s kind of becoming an expert in her own right. Yeah. Is there anything else that you want to discuss or any more stories you want to tell or anything else in our remaining time together?

Debra: I just think that, you know, be open to is to whatever the healing should be for you. What is your miracle? We sometimes put limitations on what we want to be healed. Just open your heart to allow what you feel God needs to be healed, because maybe there’s something within you that needs to be healed that you’re not aware of and that we can heal the element or illness along with that. And so, because sometimes people come in with just this is the only way this is the only thing I need. And it’s not. So, because

Rick: so they might have a lung problem, let’s say, but there’s really an underlying problem that you got to get to.

Debra: Or your body. Think about it. When one thing’s off, other things are off balanced. So, if you’re going to take your car in to get service, don’t you want it to get the full deal to look at everything

Rick: Yeah.

Debra: or do you just want it to go? Oh, just fix that little hose right there, even though there’s two hoses over here that need fixing. I only want the one.

Rick: Sure.

Debra: So we want to look at the whole body collectively and give it what it needs and not just limit it. And I think that’s the whole thing is if I was to give a tool to anyone here today, I would be like, don’t put the diagnosis as it’s the end. You know, only you know that only God knows that sometimes doctors will say, well, you only have a month to live. They don’t really know they’re going after their protocol. Right. And so stand in your own truth and walk through it. And in the meantime, continue to send love to yourself. Honor yourself. Because I believe when we honor ourself and with love, we’re also spreading it. It radiates.

Rick: Yeah. I mean, look at Eben Alexander. Doctors are saying this guy has about a one percent chance of living. And if he does live, he’s going to be a vegetable. And he’s this brilliant guy, you know, living his life. And I need him or Johnny, for that matter. I mean, there’s so many stories like that where there’s no logical reason why the person should still be alive. But they did a profound turnaround.

Debra: Yeah. Well, the show on the Gaia Network we did with a little girl that she should have died. She was in Boston, Massachusetts, Boston, having seen all the top doctors and they had said that it was fatal. And I’m telling her differently. Now, tell yourself this one. You know, here’s she’s hearing all these things from the doctors. And God says, don’t listen to them. Listen to me. She’ll be out in three weeks. She’s like three weeks. I thought it’d be instant. Well, three weeks you stand in your faith and you believe. And it all worked out. She was out on the exact three days to the day.

Rick: That’s great. Three weeks to the day.

Debra: Three weeks to the day. Yeah. She was totally healed. Yeah.

Rick: Yeah.

Debra: So you just there’s so many things out there that are available to us.

Rick: There really are. I have some friends who are very skeptical, and I don’t think they would have made it this far into the interview if they had been listening. But they’re just skeptical of everything. But I like them. They’re good people and intelligent.

Debra: But skepticism is OK, too. Like I’ve had somebody that is totally skeptic about it and they were healed. They didn’t have you don’t have to be a certain belief or a certain religion or even believe at all to receive, because it is all love and God loves you. So that’s actually makes it even more profound when it’s like, all right, I’m just coming in to see what it’s like. And I did do a session for a gentleman that didn’t believe in the healing at all. He’s like, I’m doing this for my family. And he had Hodgkin’s lymphoma of the brain and the spine. And it was gone complete in five days.

Rick: Wow.

Debra: And they said he had 2 percent chance of survival with most chemo radiation. They actually did two MRI, two, what is it, spinal taps and brain scans just to see if it was the first test was accurate or not. So, you know, it’s he’s like, why me? I said, why not? He was a scientist. He’s a why me? I go, why not you?

Rick: Yeah. And in the beginning, you said that not everybody you treat gets healed. And there, you know, I guess we all have a contract with the body, so to speak.

Debra: True.

Rick: And for some people, the contract may actually be up. And, you know.

Debra: But you might feel the presence of love and then start to love yourself or heal something that you’ve been holding on to, where you get a healing that helps you walk through with whatever you’re going through. So you always receive something. I just like I say, I 100 percent can’t guarantee that you’re going to be healed of cancer or you’re going to be healed of you know, a certain illness. I can say that I will put myself 100 percent in and offer my body up as an instrument and allow God to give what is meant to be at that moment.

Rick: Yeah, there’s some spiritual traditions, like I’m thinking of a verse from the Gita, which says better is death in one’s own dharma, meaning there are worse things that could happen to you than die. And that be to lose your evolutionary path to sort of stray so far from the path of towards higher consciousness that you, you know, that you are kind of stuck for a long time. So death, you know, I mean, no one wants to die, but we’re all going to. But there are definitely worse things that can happen to a person, in my opinion.

Debra: Yeah, I’m not afraid to die after everything. I’m not afraid to die. Do I want to leave? No. I mean, I have grandkids and I’m here.

Rick: Yeah, you’re having fun.

Debra: So, you want to you want to live life to the fullest as you can while you’re here. And just, yeah, surround yourself with joy, love, happiness. And even in the darkest days, try to find one piece of joy.

Rick: Yeah, that’s good. Well, maybe that’s a good note to end on. Nice, inspiring thing to say. And there’s probably also always a way to find that piece of joy or a reason to.

Debra: Oh, I mean, when I had cancer, I couldn’t do laundry, nothing. When I first got to put laundry in the laundry machine like that brought me joy. I can do this again. Or, you know, I look out the window and I see a bird and I could hear it chirping. That brought me joy. It doesn’t mean that you have to do something to get it. It’s all around us.

Rick: Yeah. Yeah, that’s good. All righty. Well, thank you very much, Debra. I really enjoyed this conversation.

Debra: Yeah, I enjoyed it, too. It was nice getting to meet you and speak with you. It feels like we’re sitting in the same room just having a beautiful conversation.

Rick: Yeah, it always feels like that with these. That’s kind of the way I like to do them, as just a conversation between friends, you know.

Debra: Yeah, that’s what it feels like. So, thank you for being my friend. You’re in my circle now.

Rick: Likewise. Great. Thank you. So, for all the other friends who are listening or watching this, there’s over 200 of you right now. I hope you’ve enjoyed it. And we’ve lowered the frequency of our interviews lately to two a month. Hopefully we’ll get back up again. But Irene, Irene’s been going through some health issues and she doesn’t want to have to deal with all the administrative work that doing an interview every single week involves. So we’ve just lightened it up a little bit.

Debra: But she needs to. I’m really glad that she’s putting herself first. That’s really important. She’s honoring herself and her limitations.

Rick: Yeah, yeah. True. And, you know, she’s instrumental in this whole thing. I mean, she does tons of administrative stuff that and also involves and is very involved in choosing the guests. She chose you.

Debra: I’m so blessed that she did.

Rick: Yeah.

Debra: So, I’m going to reach out to her.

Rick: OK, thank you. Thank you. And also, for those listening and watching, even though the frequency is diminished somewhat, we certainly have hundreds of them to catch up on. If you’d like to listen to some of the older ones and you can be subscribed to the YouTube channel or set yourself up to be notified by email whenever I do a new one. There’s a thing for that on the website. And, you know, we’ll keep them going. So, thanks again, Debra.

Debra: Thank you. And I know that the frequency will never lose how strong you guys have created it to be.

Rick: What do you mean by that?

Debra: I mean, like you, you you’ve already had the connection with the people, with the universe. That connection will never go away. So, if it’s like mediumship, if I decide not to do it for a month, I still can do it. So, take the time that you need and know that everyone will be waiting. That will never, ever lose.

Rick: Great. Yeah. Another thing about this is, I mean, 200 years from now, hopefully someone will be paying the hosting fees and this will be on YouTube and people can still watch these. So, it’s nice to leave a legacy like that, too.

Debra: It’s beautiful. And I’m so blessed and honored to be part of that. Thank you.

Rick: Thank you so very much. OK, so my next guest, a couple of weeks from now, will be John Churchill. And I won’t even try to explain what we’re going to be talking about. But stay tuned for that. So, see you for the next one.

Debra: And blessings to all of you. Thank you.

Rick: Thanks, Debra.