Wayne Wirs Transcript

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Wayne Wirs Interview

Rick Archer: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer. Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of interviews or conversations with spiritually awake or I’d rather say Awakening people. There are nearly 300 of them now. So if you’re new to this, go to batgap.com. And you’ll see them all archived. I also like to mention that the existence and perpetuation and expansion of the show depends on the support of appreciative viewers and listeners. So there’s a Donate button there. And speaking of listeners, we’ve been having some trouble with the audio podcast lately. And if you’ve noticed this, please bear with us. We’re working on getting it fixed and emailing back and forth with Apple. And also, hopefully, it’ll be fixed soon if you’ve been having problems. So, my guest today is Wayne Wirs. And I’ll just read a very short bio, and then we’ll get into our usual extended conversation. Wayne considers himself more of a spiritual explorer than teacher so his teachings quote unquote, tend toward firsthand real world experiences, open ended integral mystical and evidence based rather than academic hard and fast truths, which I really like the sound of and I sort of feel like any teacher should be doing the same, not just speaking from concepts but speaking from their personal experience. Unlike many non dual teachers who focus on an all or nothing approach to awakening, when advocates a simple yet integral, fading of the ego based on key qualities, eternal soul, practical, radiance, love, emotional, emptiness, awareness, rational and intimate, mystical experience. He calls this dynamic, flowing, magical way of living, mystical oneness. Wayne has two key sayings, which best describes his message, the less there is a view, the more there is the divine, and the smart have their books, the wise have their scars. And even though he’s smart, Wayne has written a few books, which will probably be mentioning towards the end, and I think I’ve read all of them this week. They’re not long or difficult to read. They’re very enjoyable. So welcome, when thanks.

Wayne Wirs: Thank you. Well, I appreciate you having me here. I never expected to be on here because I never, you know, queried you about coming on. And I never asked any of my readers, you know, I have a blog, I blog about this my day to day life. And I never asked any of them to put me on. So it’s very synchronistic that I came on at about the time I was ready to come on to so great. It’s all working out. Well,

Rick Archer: yeah. Well, a few people had sent in votes over the years. And Irene keeps track of that, and was kind of working down the list. And noticed that you were there and looked interesting and had quite a few votes. So she invited you.

Wayne Wirs: Well, thank you. I appreciate it.

Rick Archer: Yeah. By votes. I just mean, you know, people inquire and say, Hey, what about weighing gears? And so we kept track of that. Right? Of course, we don’t solely go by the numbers. Sometimes they’re very interesting people who no one has heard of, and we invite them on the show. But you know, it’s one indicator. So as may be evident to people who are watching this, you live in a van.

Wayne Wirs: I do. Yeah. I I’ve been living full time pretty much on the road for about six years, seven years? Well, it’s about seven years now. I just do it named for it. Well, for a number of reasons. One is I don’t feel like I fit in anywhere anymore. But also everywhere feels like home too, if that makes sense. Yeah. And I love my freedom. I just love being able to go out there. Another thing is Churchill seekers, often we require solitude to integrate what we’re learning, you know, you kind of have to get away from all the noise of society and stuff. So living this way allows me to get away from people when I want to, and get when I need to be around him. I just go hang out in a city for a while too. So it really works out very well for for

Rick Archer: ya. There’s a kind of one of the rules that certain certain orders of sadhus have to live by in India is that they’re not supposed to stay in any one place more than three days. And they have to keep moving.

Wayne Wirs: Well, a couple of my readers have called me an American Saudi because I do kind of wander around and you know, I don’t really stay in any one place for very long and yeah, I liked living in that way. You know,

Rick Archer: I know I lived out of suitcase myself for 15 years during that entire time, I didn’t have any kind of a rental or apartment or anything I was just traveling. So it can be fun. It’s an interesting phase of one’s life if one goes through that phase, because it really does culture of certain detachment from many of the things that people ordinarily get attached to

Wayne Wirs: that and you have to become very comfortable with yourself, you can’t have a lot of inner conflict. Because it’ll drive you crazy. Right? So you have to it promotes a sense of inner peace to naturally Yeah, no.

Rick Archer: Where are you now?

Wayne Wirs: Right now I’m outside Alpine, Arizona, which is on the eastern side of in the White Mountains. So it’s a little cool up here and the air is thin. So you might catch me having to catch my breath a little bit about it’s a beautiful, beautiful area. And if you can see it, right, if I turn it outside, you don’t know if you can see out there or not.

Rick Archer: We can see the trees and the woods. You see all that?

Wayne Wirs: Yeah.

Rick Archer: Nice.

Wayne Wirs: So yeah. And that’s, you know, that’s my backyard today.

Rick Archer: That’s great. I’ve been up there, I want to start a meditation course up in that area. Okay, good. And, incidentally, you’re on a 4g network. So occasionally, people, if people watching this might wonder, like, How come is images freezing up? That’s why he’s on a 4g network, we’re getting pretty good, pretty good quality of bandwidth. Okay, so let’s, let’s get into your personal story a little bit. I know a lot of people like to say, Oh, I don’t have a personal story, because I’m not a person and all that stuff. And but people love the personal story. And I would counter that, yeah, you are a person, you’re not just only a person, there’s much more to you than your personal story, obviously. But you people’s personal personal stories are interesting, and people can relate to them. So

Wayne Wirs: I would I would agree with you. 100%. Yes, I am a person, but I am also much more in that sense. So and that’s and I really, I’m kind of divert a little bit here. I’m sorry. But this is a discussion, right? Yeah. On that subject, I think a lot of spiritual teachers, they almost are detached from their personal story. Whereas if you spend enough time there, you end up re integrating it and it becomes it’s just becomes an aspect of you just like your body is an aspect of you. And your thoughts are an aspect of you and your loves and aspect of you, you know, right? So, and that’s kind of where I go with this mystical oneness. These are different qualities. So, but I don’t want to jump ahead of myself. Here’s my story.

Rick Archer: Let me let me tell you a funny little story before you proceed. My friend Francis Bennett was just over in England touring around giving some talks and England, there’s a certain kind of mentality over there, because certain spiritual teachers have hammered on the point that you know, you’re not a person, there’s nothing to do nowhere to go, you know, that kind of emptiness thing. And so there were some people coming to his talks, who were kind of arguing with him on that point. And so there’s just one guy and he was the guy was going on and on. And finally, Francis kind of like, took a very stern countenance. And he said, Andrew, you big fat slob. You lazy slob. Why don’t you just go home? And the guy was like, whoa. And then he Francis paused a minute, and he said, Andrew, than anybody feel that? And the guy got the point. He said, Oh, yeah, wow. And so then they had a whole different conversation about the fact that you know, you are a person you do have feelings, and, and so on, regardless of how impersonal you may be on some other level.

Wayne Wirs: Absolutely. And that’s what I call it, you have to integrate that. It’s not like they’re lying or anything when they’re talking from that, that, that I’m this absolute, and this is my manifest body, or this is my relative body. It’s not like they’re lying about that. It’s just that you haven’t quite brought it together yet. And by blogging, since I’ve been blogging about this stuff before, during and after the awakening, I had to kind of come to terms with it, because I couldn’t hide it. You know, your blog is a diary. Right? Yeah. I had to keep talking, you know, I had to come to terms with it. Whereas other people that can almost like, just not talk about that stuff. So anyway, the story, what you want to know is the story of how I got here, go for it. All right. Sorry about that.

Rick Archer: No, I’m the one that you go

Wayne Wirs: ahead. Well, I wrote a book called fading toward Enlightenment, which I read

Rick Archer: last night and was very Yeah, it really enjoyed it. Yeah.

Wayne Wirs: Thank you. But basically, I was an expert at being a spiritual seeker. So I wrote a book about being an expert about being a seeker not being enlightened. I wasn’t like dead. I had an unexpected past life memory. I would have never done anything like this was through breathwork. It’s called Holotropic breathing. I only did this because I was paying. I did a website for someone I create a website and she wanted me to pay me back. I said, Don’t give me money. So she offered me this course. And during this this breathwork session, I had a past life memory. Coming from a non dual background, though I knew not to be attached to past lives. That’s just your story. That’s just your store. We’ve all heard Her death 1000 times before. But what it did is implied I have future lives. And that was very important. All of a sudden, all of a sudden, I live forever, I realized I live forever. So my ego went from this, to this, it really weakened dramatically by realizing I don’t have to live in fear anymore. I don’t have to worry about making decisions based on what might happen, right? It really freed me up it really weakened my ego. This is after fitting toward Enlightenment though. So here, I was living as a soul and I got an RV. I was making money by doing a computer consultant work. I was up on Mount Hood, and the consulting work had fallen through and I only had about at the time, events really started to happen, about four months of money left, and I said, I am going to find Enlightenment or die trying with my money runs out. I’m killing myself. It’s a danger of living as a soul. You know, you don’t take life too seriously. Because I know I come back on future past lives and future lives.

Rick Archer: You don’t still feel that way. Do you? Like if your money runs out, you’re gonna kill yourself?

Wayne Wirs: Honestly, I don’t care. I do. Actually, I do. But I don’t expect it to run out. It’s one of the that’s part of being the mystic, you know, things are gonna happen. I won’t compromise my life, I won’t just get a job just to survive. But I’ll just, I’ll somehow things will work out. They have been working out for the last six years. It’s the weirdest thing. Alright. So it’s nothing to worry about in that sense. But I just say, Well, I just, I just take a day at a time kind of thing. So I was up on Mount Hood. And I knew I only had about four months left of savings, therefore about four months left to live. And I realized I’ve been searching for probably about 2030 years now. And it wasn’t really getting much farther. So I said, Alright, I give up on Enlightenment, I’m not going to try to find Enlightenment anymore. I’m just going to try to find the next step. What is the next thing I can do in preparation for my next life? So I started reading a couple books that Ken Wilber had talked about changes of mind, I don’t know if you can see that by Jenny Wade. All right, and ego and the dynamic ground by Michael Washburn. Real tough stuff to read hard as it says all Deeps. Like, you had very psychological stuff. But they had a levels of consciousness, kind of a hierarchy. And I said, Well, I tried to find out where I was in that hierarchy. And I said, Well, now what would be my next step, forget about Enlightenment, what would be my next step. And from this was what I would call radiance practice was born. Basically, I found that people at that level would look at something and they would kind of join with it and the way they would look at it. And this way, I just can describe this as if you take your finger and you touch a table and you close your eyes. And as you’re doing that, it almost feels like you and the table are joined, you’ve almost become one with each other. So. Table and that was on a couple of magical things started to happen anyway,

Rick Archer: your voice broke up from the time when you said you touch the table and you become one with each other after that. We didn’t hear you for a few seconds.

Wayne Wirs: Okay, I was doing that then I was ever I would look at it would almost like join the I would feel that sort of almost like I was touching anything I would look at. So that was almost like, I think she was calling it I think genuinely was calling that a form a unity consciousness, you kind of become one with everything. Then a magical thing happens. I sat down on a rock to meditate and next to a little brook. And a frog climbed up onto a rock in front of me. And I said to myself, well, I know that it’s a cold blooded creature. It’s going to warm up in about 15 minutes later, it’s going to hop away and I have that in the back of my I said so I’ll sit here until that rock that frog leaves the rock. Two hours later, I’m going nuts. I am going crazy. This frog is not mood. He’s sitting there like a Zen master. Right? And I gave up I gave up on it. And long story short what that did is I think every spiritual teacher every spiritual student knows what they need to wake up. It’s just it hasn’t gone from the head into a felt sense. It hasn’t gone into us yet. And that frog experience did it it’s why is that frog better at meditating than I am I’m as I’m much better than a fraud. Why is he so much better at this? And it just hit me because he has no thoughts. Right? And that separated me from my have thoughts at that moment, that was the thing and it took like three weeks for this to stabilize, thoughts are almost like magnets, they’ll they’ll pull you in. And I think that’s what a Satori experience is, is you separate from it. And the ego is such a strong thought it’s such you back in almost like a magnet. And they already had a glimpse of Enlightenment, but he didn’t. So it took about three weeks for the ego to start to dissolve, and it wasn’t so powerful anymore. But I stayed that way for for quite a while. But the integration, the mystical part started happening. Over the years, I started realizing that when I would try to do something, things would go wrong. And when I would just relax and surrender, everything would work out, it’s a very mystical, and me being a rational person. I said, the only explanation I have for this is that there’s got to be a divine intelligence operating in my life, and I have a saying the lesser is a me, the more there is the divine, you know, so. So that’s kind of my story. Long story short, there’s a lot of other stuff in there. But that’s basically how I got to where I am. So

Rick Archer: that’s the first part of your story. There must be more. It’s, you know, I mean, because that was quite a while ago, the frog on the rock and all that,

Wayne Wirs: well, yeah, the frog in the rock was and the time between becoming that awakening state, I went to right into teacher mode. So as so many people do. And you could see it on my blog, you know, I start talking and I started talking about all these things about, you know, you’re not your thoughts, and I thought I could talk anybody into awakening, I was so sure of this. I’ve since changed my mind on that. And that’s kind of the cool thing about the blog is that it’s, it’s not a book, it’s a diary. Yeah, you know, it’s Wayne wears.com For anyone wants to see all these experiences. But what I was realizing, though, is I was having a very hard time integrating this. The all the boundless state of emptiness, what I would call emptiness with the manifest world and I would almost like be making excuses is like a bit like saying, well, that’s just conditioning is why I’m acting this way. But because I’m blogging about it, I have to talk about it, right? I can’t ignore it, I can’t be just hiding it, sweeping it under the rug. I’m very, very transparent about my life. And after a while it I don’t even know when it exactly happened. But it there came a point to where instead of feeling like this, I hope I’m doing this on the screen alright. Me as a formless awareness as an unbounded observer of the manifest my body, my me the outside world, it went from that to a harmony of these two. And now my state of consciousness isn’t me seeing Wayne weirs, it’s, I flow between contracted down into my thoughts, sometimes to the soul to the love radiance, to the vastness and emptiness my life is like this now. Yeah. And that’s what I mean by integrated, it’s an integrated sense of, I don’t know what I am, I couldn’t tell you what I have, right? But it’s a flowing state, you know, and those are what I call the awakened state, or, I guess you’d call it the qualities of self, the mortal how we apply all this to the world, the soul, living forever, you don’t have to worry about that. It’s like this is my mortal burqa. My soul is another burqa where another layer of me love, unconditional love flowing out, that is a another layer. That’s another quality I call radiant quality. And the eternal or the, I’m sorry, the emptiness which is when all boundaries when thoughts are seen through and all the boundaries fade. That’s what most non dual teachers talk about that that vastness, this this beautiful state of being one and with everything. And then the last quality is not a quality of density. But that’s when the divine intelligence starts waking up in your life.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Well, there’s a lot of good material in what you’re saying there. First of all, the good, you’re kind of clearly indicating that it’s not a static thing, where you use the word liquid, where it’s not a static thing where either you’re in this state or you’re in this state, or you’re in this state, and, you know, to the exclusion of all the others. It’s more like an ebb and flow according to the need of the moment. I would say you seem to be indicating, you know, if you’re in heavy traffic, you’re focused in on, you know, get through this traffic safely. But that doesn’t totally obliterate the silent background that has been cultured, I would imagine that that is sort of there but it’s not your primary dwelling place during in the heavy traffic,

Wayne Wirs: right? Absolutely. Absolutely. As an analogy, you always have your hand with you, right? Your hand is always with you, but you don’t think about your hand all the time, right? You know, maybe, maybe sometimes you need to use your hand. And so you’re using your hand. But right now we’re talking, you’re not thinking about what your hands are, what they’re doing, right. But it’s always a part of you. So sometimes you can drag down into your hand or into the, the mortal realm. And sometimes you expand into the love realm or to the soul realm, when I’m trying to make a decision. If I’ve taken the decision too seriously, I’ll think well, as a soul, I live 100,000 years is this really gonna make that much difference? You know? So it eases things, you know, I’m saying the sense of self is constantly flowing is what it is now, it used to be this way. It used to be separate. And it was probably like that for two or three years afterwards. And but I couldn’t keep almost making excuses for Okay, well, here’s why I did that. You know what, because I have to talk about myself on the blog. I’m always very, very transparent, you know, because, you know, when I was a spiritual seeker, I would have given my left testicle to see the the diary, the personal diary of Jesus Christ, or the personal diary of Buddha, right? When you, I mean, what you wanted to know, like, oh, Dear Diary, today, I got pissed off at the money changers in the temple, and I kicked their tables, and I feel kind of bad about that, you know? Would you like to know that? So?

Rick Archer: So so how would I mean, you know, now you refer to yourself as enlightened, how would you? And people throw that a word around a lot, of course. And some people are reluctant to even use it anymore? Because I don’t like to use it. Yeah, because of so many connotations and different interpretations. So let’s define our terms of how would How would you define awakening? How would you define Enlightenment? Are they synonymous? Or are they sort of different degrees of something?

Wayne Wirs: I would determine I would say Enlightenment is when you detach from your personal story with detached from your thoughts, just like when people die, they detached from their body. There’s a lot of evidence for that. I don’t want people to think that I’m this woowoo mystic. There’s evidence for pretty much everything I talk, oh, yeah,

Rick Archer: there’s tons of evidence, all the E experiences and all right, and they’re verified

Wayne Wirs: by third parties. That’s the key thing. That’s what I consider evidence. When you detach from your thoughts, just like the frog, I call my frog master, he just loves my frog master taught me. When I detached from the thoughts, you no longer identify do your thoughts or loan longer me exclusively you before there, I was the author of fading toward Enlightenment, I had a role that was my thing. And I blog very seriously about you know, this, these teachings and stuff. Now I look at it as oh, gosh, and but I was identified with being an author of a book. When I detach now it was just something that is part of my thread of existence, my thread of experience. It’s not me, though. It’s just something that happened in this, this, this this thread of experience, right? I don’t know what’s going on in your head. So you’re in a separate thread over there, right? But it isn’t me either, you know. So that’s what happens when I call enlightened is when you detach from those thoughts. And they don’t, then you don’t get sucked back into identifying with being your thoughts. Yeah, that’s what I call Enlightenment. But I don’t feel that that’s the end. I don’t honestly, I don’t think it ever has, I think it goes like this, you separate, you integrate, and then you separate and you integrate, and they just keep going and going and going.

Rick Archer: That’s very interesting that you should say that there is this is a talk that I once heard about the cognitions of Brighu. Brighu was a Vedic sage and and he kept using the Word Nevada twang, which means retire, and it was like retire from there and then retire from there and then retire from there and retire from there, back and forth. So which kind of sort of what you’re just saying that there’s this. You know, it’s like, it’s almost like you keep taking mouthfuls of food and you chew it and swallow it. And then you take another mouthful and chew it and swallow it so that we kind of keep throw in another metaphor. Keep taking new territory, and then integrating it and taking another piece of territory and then integrating it. There’s just this constant expansion and integration.

Wayne Wirs: And each time, each time you integrate you grow a little bit. Yeah. And I got that. I never heard of those things you were talking about, but I got them from spiral dynamics. I don’t know if you’ve heard that where you see a new idea such as a lot of people think in black and white terms, or they’re pretty much fundamentalist religious people, usually black or white, you’re good or bad, you know, having less profit. Right? Exactly, exactly. But there’s no in between almost. So what happens is people separate from this black and white and they look at it for a second they say Whoa, is that really true? or are there shades of grey? So there’s the black and white they see it and then now they say there’s black, and there’s white. And there’s the shades of grey. So that’s the integration. Some people, they see black when they said, No, that’s right. And they go right back to being black and white, and I’m saying so, but you separate and then you integrate, and then you separate and integrate. And that’s the way of life you know, that is the way of growth.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Nisargadatta once said that, in his estimation, the characteristics of spiritual maturity are the ability to appreciate paradox and ambiguity.

Wayne Wirs: Yeah, I’m glad you mentioned that because I have another saying, I got a lot of things. All my readers are saying, Oh, no, he’s gonna talk about this is I say, the mystic lives and paradox because especially, you know, I had to figure out how do I integrate this how do I live in this world? From this new perspective? And it’s very very it’s very tricky. There aren’t many books on how to do this. I say that the the Imagine one lily pad I keep referring to frogs you know, there’s imagine this one lily pad on a lake and on the on the lily pad there’s a bunch of frogs and separation separation separation or the relative truth right. And then on another lily pad there’s a couple of frogs there they’re saying unity unity unity right there, this one saying absolute truth. Well, the mystic he lives but he lives in the lake. He doesn’t live on either one of these truths. And the reason I say it’s a mystic is because of the mystical experience. It’s the Dow The Dow is the lake. And these are just concepts that arise from the Dow. But the the to integrate it, you can’t live on either one, the lilypads you can’t say, you guys over there are wrong. And they can’t say you guys over there are wrong. You have to live between these truth if you want to integrate it and bring it into the world. My opinion.

Rick Archer: We might say the mistake is the weight.

Wayne Wirs: Yeah, you could you put in a way. But I don’t like to say that. Because again, that’s almost like saying, Well, I’m God. But like I said, I had no clue what’s going on in your head. If I were a God, I’d have a clue of that, you know, from an abstract conceptual point. Yes, there are no boundaries. But evidence wise, I don’t know what’s going on your head. So I can’t say I’m God.

Rick Archer: No, but think about this. If if let’s define God, you define God first. And I’ll see what you say.

Wayne Wirs: All right. I when I say God, I’m not talking about the God of the Bible of the Torah or the Koran. I’m talking about my experience of I call her her or sometimes I just I officially call her Tao guide her, but I just call her her because she feels like a lover. She’s interacting with my life all the time. And people who follow my blog see this all the time I tag events either under on the one blog, I tag them as a miracle logs and another one, I tag them into synchronicity, because synchronicity implies God. All right. Almost all spiritual seekers will say that as they become less dense, okay, more expanded more open. Life kind of lines up, everybody seems to talk about this. Even people who aren’t awake before I woke up, I still had these experiences that the less dense I felt the more life would line up. It was great, you know, is a wonderful thing so that the only way I could explain this is that there’s an all powerful all knowing being who will interact with your life if you allow her if you open up to her All right. That’s what I mean by God, this intelligence is all powerful, all knowing intelligence that almost you can almost say wants to be involved if your life if you’ll just let her. All right. So that’s what I mean by God. It’s almost like your better half way. It’s called the duplex personality. Richard Buick and cosmic consciousness I first came across it there. He says that pretty much everyone who’s awake has this sort of a two personalities, a individual personality, but then this almost a divine personality that that commingles but the way I try to explain it to my readers, how it feels it’s almost like you’re married. And you’re might be in a store and you’re thinking about, well, what would my wife think about this? Or should I get this and what would be her opinion on that? It’s like she’s always there, even though she’s not physically present. That’s the closest thing I can explain of how the duplex person I how God incarnate and within us feels. It’s not like I’m a messiah or anything. I don’t feel like that at all. It’s like she’s a separate, separate but co mingled part of me. Yeah, that makes,

Rick Archer: it does no, so let me throw something out and we’ll back this back and forth. So, you know, show me any cubic centimeter in the entire creation. That is not utterly brimming with intelligence, I mean, go out to intergalactic space, and there’s nothing there, and yet look closely, so to speak. And there are gamma rays and photons and gravitational forces and all sorts of things that are, that are kind of like operating in a perfectly orchestrated way in total orderliness in their own way, as laws of nature as as phenomena of nature, there’s an intelligence orchestrating that, now take the whole galaxy, are one of them. And again, there’s, you know, perfect orchestration, in terms of gravitational forces, and then fusion within the stars and all the stuff going on on that level that is flawless and absolutely orderly, and it’s functioning. Now zoom it down to, you know, the level of, I don’t know, a single human cell, we have 10,000 trillion of them. And in each one there is each one is more complex than the city of Tokyo. And, and is being you know, conducted within the nucleus of one cell, we have actually six feet worth of DNA, if you unraveled it, and stretched it all out. And it’s self replicating, locating and self repairing, and there’s all this other stuff going on in the cell that completely boggles the mind and is far beyond human understanding. And we have 10,000 trillion of them. And you know, and then take it down to the atomic level, the in a gram of hydrogen, there are so many atoms, that if they were the size of unpopped, popcorn kernels, they would cover the continental United States, nine miles deep. And so there’s that. And so from, from the tiniest, to the most vast, the Vedas say, I know Ernie and Mahatama here, and which means smaller than the smallest, larger than the largest, the Atman, is that. And the so the the Atman, meaning cosmic intelligence or pure intelligence, it completely contains and is contained within all of creation, and orchestrates at all, flawlessly, at every conceivable level. So, and therefore, there is if we analyze what we are, since it completely permeates us, and we are completely contained within it, there’s no place that you could examine within whatever we are, that would not be found. We are that, you know that we are nothing other than that. And yet, as you say, you don’t know what’s going on in my head, I don’t know what’s going on in your head. Because there’s individual sense organs of the infinite we have our limitations just as sense organs do. You know, my, my sense of touch can’t feel what’s happening over in the neighbor’s garden or something. My sense of sight can’t see what’s going on three miles from here, we have our individual limitations. But at a deeper level, we don’t you know, we are that intelligence, which is omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient. So, you know, individually, we don’t know everything, we can’t do everything. But most fundamentally, we are that intelligence, which does all those things. So that’s my concept of God. And, and your whole talk of the Divine really interests me.

Wayne Wirs: May I interrupt you just a second? That is your concept of God? Is that your experience of God

Rick Archer: in a growing way? Sure,

Wayne Wirs: is that I view its variance? I mean, I agree with everything you said, I totally agree. I’m not I’m not in argument with you. But again, I am a reporter, more than an explorer more than I am a teacher or a theoretician, you know, I like to say, well, this is my experience. And I feel the vastness I feel that connection, I feel I know, I once looked at this fly, and I said, I know it felt it, that that which is seeing out of my eyes is the same thing that is seeing out the flies eyes, you know that that’s it was a profound and it’s, I can slip into that experience. Any second one right now, I mean, that experience, but I still don’t know what you’re thinking, you know, I’m saying so there’s a limitation to it. So I say, Okay, well, that’s all wonderful. I agree with what you’re saying. I totally agree with what you’re saying. But since I don’t experience it, how is that applicable to? Reality? How is that a pickle tool to bring it down to earth? I guess you could say you could almost say that. I’m more about down to earth Enlightenment, where many people are more about the more abstract concepts of Enlightenment, you know, I’m saying so I totally agree with you, but it’s not my lived experience. It’s more of a concept. You know, I’m saying?

Rick Archer: Well, I think I think I would say that for both of us and I don’t know to what degree it is lived experience is just a we’re, you know, babes in the woods. It’s a fledgling experience compared to what it conceivably ultimately could be. And you know, there are and have been beings in this world and perhaps on other worlds for whom All that I just said is far more, you know, viscerally experienced than, than conceptually and admittedly for me, it’s to a great degree conceptual, but but somehow there’s a felt sense of what I’ve just described, which is why enthralls me so much. And it’s something that is almost a constant fascination, you know?

Wayne Wirs: No, absolutely. And honestly, that, when you deep dive into it that deeply it is feel it feels very mystical. It feels like every little atom is alive. Every little atom is an aspect of God, it’s, I guess you’d call it I think it’s called holonomic theory where where one piece is included within the all pieces, that sort of thing. It feels that well, you can feel it moving up through you. But again, I live this so much that I just I hear it, you know, it’s almost like, I feel it, but it’s not necessarily what I can do anything with it, you know, I can’t really apply it much with it. Yeah, that’s, I guess that’s fine.

Rick Archer: Go ahead. No, but you do talk a lot about the divine and about, you know, what you refer to as her and about the synchronicities in your life, and, and so on. So it’s kind of like that, that intelligence that is, has this vast cosmic jurisdiction or scope is showing itself to you, in so many ways, large and small in your life that are constant hints of it, indications of it. And, you know, I think that,

Wayne Wirs: and I love it. I mean, I’m so grateful when I cheer up all the time, when this happens, you know, so it’s not like, it’s a Wow, that’s fascinating. You know, no, it’s I’m not like Spock, you know how he does that is I’m like, I’m more like, Kirk, it’s like, oh, wow, let’s really get involved with this. You know, this is really cool. You know, that’s what Yeah, I love it. I love it. I love that. This happens, and I love to tell people that it can happen to you just

Rick Archer: your voice is breaking you. Your voice broke up a little bit, because of the bandwidth thing. Repeat what you just said. So we get it anyway, what

Wayne Wirs: I was saying is I just love it. And I just tell people is it’s not nothing special with me. It’s just the less there is of you, the more this happens, and we can all see this in our own lives. Yeah. So

Rick Archer: and, and so what I what I see a lot with people who’ve had an awakening is that initially, there’s this self realization phase, which might kind of almost in a way seems a little dry and attached. And, you know, there’s an emphasis on I am not a person and and then there can be an emphasis on the world is illusory, and, and stuff like that. But it seems that with most people living in that for some time, they begin to enter a new phase, which I see evidence of in the things that you write, where there’s a more of an appreciation of the sort of divine intelligence in everything. And kind of a devotional quality almost that begins to arise, like you said, tears in the eyes, very often. And it seems to correlate with more of a blossoming of the heart. So anyway, comment on that in terms of your own experience.

Wayne Wirs: Well, it is, is when I first detached you know, it was it, it’s almost it’s almost a dry, it’s a bit impersonal, it really it’s, it’s, it’s it’s very much impersonal in that sense. But as you bring it down into your heart as you try to live it in, then that’s when the the blossoming as you say starts to happen. That’s when I realized as a mystic is I started seeing this intelligence and she started affecting my life. And I couldn’t deny her anymore. And that’s when I surrendered to this beauty. And you feel this beauty and it’s such a, it’s so not like the way Wayne weirs was, you know, he was so very rational and analytical. I still suffer from a brain a brain, it’s too too smart for my own good. But, yeah, that is I think, I think a lot of people get stuck in that separation. I think they start teaching too early. I do. I wasn’t ready to teach. I mean, it’s been almost six years. And I’m just now starting to feel like I’m ready to write the book on it, you know, and I’m not going to teach until the books written. But before then I was just, there’s just too much going on. I was too confused. And because I was blogging about it, I couldn’t hide from it. Either. I had to, you know, I’m dealing with this. And people would see me getting sidetracked on there, and they see me getting attached to this over here, you know, but I’d always come back. And you know, that’s part of the growing process. And I don’t think we should be if we start teaching too early, we almost have to put on a teacher’s persona and you know, glow all the time and stuff and I don’t think that’s healthy. I really don’t. I think you need to integrate it. And I think that takes time and that’s the blossoming aspect. Yeah.

Rick Archer: Well, I think it’s kind of cool the public way that you’re going about it. Um, because it keeps you real. And you probably have people that will call you on your stuff if you start getting a little unreal. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that could be a healthy thing for a lot of teachers and perhaps might have saved a lot of teachers from going off into some kind of, you know, too analytical Yeah, to analytical or to self aggrandizing you know, get off on some ego trip and considering themselves perfect and spotless and beyond reproach.

Wayne Wirs: Well, I think, I think that’s why I say they’re wise have their scars, right, the smart, you know, you’re smart, you suddenly realize this, but you got to get those scars, you got to make those mistakes, you got to be called out on your mistakes, you’ve got to be saying someone point out, you know, when you’re taking this too seriously, you know. And by seeing that, that’s when you start to those scars add up after a while and you become wiser you realize that all right, this is a there’s more going on here than I thought you know, there’s a lot more, as it all comes together, there’s a lot more to personalizing it. I don’t know if that’s the right word, because it’s not a personal self, but it is somehow bring it into the world. You know, that’s a hard part. That’s that last, the image on the Zen ox herding pictures right back into the world, you know, he has to somehow come out of that vastness, that emptiness and come back into the world and not just teach it, but to live it, you gotta live it.

Rick Archer: Yeah, there’s a line from the incredible String Band, whatever you think it’s more than that. And I like this theme that we’re kind of touching on, I touched on in a lot of my interviews that, you know, this, this is a, this is a marathon, not a sprint, it’s a long haul, which is not to say that you’re not going to get rewards all along the way. But there is no end to it, as far as I can tell. And as far as many teachers whom I greatly respect, but God, you Shanti tend to say it’s an

Wayne Wirs: he’s talking about, he’s talking about the no self safe, he was teaching from what he calls the transcendence. So for years and years, now he’s starting to say, wait a minute, I’m starting to just, this is just starting to become an experience rather than the observer. He’s starting to eat, you know, he’s even evolving. And that’s I don’t think it ever ends.

Rick Archer: Oh, yeah, I know, he readily acknowledges that. So which is why people, yourself included, are reluctant to use the word Enlightenment because it has too much of a static here, terminal kind of connotation, you know, oh, enlightened. There couldn’t be anything more than that.

Wayne Wirs: Yeah, no, no, and it is it’s, and some people might be discouraged by that. But I look at his look at life, life is constantly growing, and then it dies and it grows again. And it’s a constant cycle. And rather than being attached to an endpoint, just look at his living, it’s growing. It’s your awakening your every it always gets better. Right, it always gets better. So don’t be hung up on this is Enlightenment, you know?

Rick Archer: Yeah, well, you know, there’s been the whole theme of Enlightenment as being your ticket out of here. You know, you get enlightened you don’t have to be reborn anymore. You’re out of here life, life sucks. And then you die, and you’re out. But I think that there’s a, there’s a guy named Matthew Wright, who is a young minister, and he talks about the sort of the second Axial Age that we’re entering into, in which he describes, you know, these older cultures, which, in which, you know, you could suffer horribly and die from a toothache, as you know, having perhaps justifiably wanted to check out once and for all, but, but there seems to be more of an emphasis now on, on being conduits for divine intelligence for God knows how long you know, having realized that you don’t want to just leave you want to, it’s more like the bodhisattva thing where you want to be, you know, this, as St. Francis said, Lord, make me an instrument of thy peace you want to serve and be an instrument for as long as you are of use?

Wayne Wirs: No, absolutely. And it’s a wonderful feeling. When you feel that I don’t know if you’ve had personally had this experience of when she she starts pushing you along it you have the option of just No, I’m gonna go do this, but it feels so good. You just kind of go along with it. It’s one time I was in a casino and I and my readers are gonna recognize this. I had walked into a casino that I was camped out outside of and I just opened I just stood and leaned against the wall and I just opened all these people are gambling and stuff I just opened up into the vastness and within minutes a woman comes up to me that wasn’t reacting the way you know, I was

Rick Archer: your voice a little bit. So a woman comes up to you and she kind

Wayne Wirs: of starts flirting with me. And then she saw I wasn’t there was something different about me and she started opening up about her life, how she just made all this money and stuff and I called Dalgaard. Her kind of came through. And when we spoke to her and we said use this money to, for whatever that dream you’ve been dreaming about, you know, and she was like, so grateful and she gave me a hug and she walks away. Two minutes later as big giant guy, probably six, seven walks up to me, scary looking guy, you know, and he was obviously once you start talking as obviously he was mentally slow. And he talks about, he was so proud of is he asked me first was it a preacher or something he said he saw this later, or whatever, you know, because you’re I’m sitting down being very open, there’s this, you get this look from people when you’re in that state. And he was very proud of his St. Christopher’s metal and but he also had a piece symbol on. But instead of it in a circle, it was in a heart shape. It was enclosed in a heart shape. And again, I allow her, she just started coming through. And I could have gotten out of the way and said something I wanted from the mind. But she kind of talked and she said, All these people here they are all caught up in their mind. But you and I know that peace comes from the heart. That’s why you had that symbol. And he was really, you know, he could say was a slow, you know, mentally slow. And he stopped for a second and he just gave me his big bear hug and lifted me up. And I was always just tears come out in my eyes. Because I would have never thought to have said that Wayne weirs would have never thought to say that, but she kind of came through. And like I say, it’s almost like, it’s a beautiful thing. You can stop it, but you’d never want to. And it’s a wonderful thing. I have a student Michelle, she’s my only student. But she started having these experiences. And it’s a little weird when it starts. It always feels

Rick Archer: and feels your voice Brian, you said it’s a little weird when it’s a little weird

Wayne Wirs: when this starts to happen to you. But it always feels very good. It feels a flowing, loving, divinely inspired. And it’s it’s a wonderful thing.

Rick Archer: Yeah. No, I know what you mean. I taught meditation for 25 years and and when you put yourself in the sort of the position of being an evolutionary instrument for other people. It’s like, the powers that be or whatever, say, Okay, boys, we got a live one here, let’s give him some juice. Or, you know, you could say her is sort of, you know, I like to think of it that there’s this. Well, it’s again, it’s intelligent, but there’s this evolutionary force in the universe, which has as its direction, the evolution of everything, the the greater and greater infusion of the Divine into the, into the relative. And if you can be an instrument for that, then it’s very profound for you, as well as useful for for the world. So that’s what you experienced in the casino, there, you were blessing, the lives of a couple of people are probably really having an influence on them that might last the rest of their lives. At the same time, it was a beautiful experience for you.

Wayne Wirs: Absolutely. And yeah, it wasn’t trying to that’s another thing that wasn’t me trying, it was an opening and her kind of coming through. And that’s really the experience of this duplex personalities, like you kind of get out of the way. And it’s not like possession. And you you do have control, but it’s like it feels so good. It feels so right. And you don’t know where it’s going. But it usually ends up in a wonderful, beautiful way. unexpected way.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I think it’s not possession because it’s not some isolated entity that’s using you so to speak. It’s more like the, you know, the divine, the universal divine consciousness is flowing through you the way electricity flows through a light bulb. I mean, the electrical field is everywhere. And a light bulb sort of channels it so to speak, you know, by being the right sort of instrument to to convert electricity into photons,

Wayne Wirs: right? No, it’s that’s a good analogy. It is. It’s not you, but it is you, you know, it’s, again, it’s, it’s this, it’s no longer the absolute self and the relative self, it’s all combined in it, it flows, it’s this flowing state. That’s the experience and I will bet you almost all authentically awake people, that’s the only way they can interact with the world is they have to be a flowing self rather than the standoff observer. So you know. So

Rick Archer: yeah, I think standoff observers is just a phase and it’s the phase I think that you theoretically could get stuck in for a long time. But, you know, Pete, most people seem to move through it.

Wayne Wirs: Good. Yeah, I don’t I don’t follow many people anymore. Like it’s more of a I’d rather just do it. You know, I’d rather just throw myself and see what happens and that’s what I do. And that’s why I say I’m more of an explorer or more of a reporter than I am

Rick Archer: Your voice just broke up. So I’ll just say something for a minute until it comes in. He’s you were saying I’m more of a reporter than I am.

Wayne Wirs: Yeah. I don’t fault. What I’m saying is I don’t follow many spiritual teachers anymore. Right? I would rather not be influenced by their, their ideas, I would rather find out for myself. And so I make mistakes all the time. You know, and I don’t mind. I don’t mind, you know?

Rick Archer: Yeah. That’s cool. I mean, I obviously exposed myself to a lot of spiritual teachers, because I interview one every week, not always teachers, but spiritual people. But um, I don’t know, I just find it kind of enriching and nourishing, to expose myself to different people’s viewpoints and expressions. It’s not like I’m sort of hanging on their every word and converting my worldview to theirs every week or something. But each each one sort of adds a new perspective,

Wayne Wirs: where I see an advantage to what you’re doing is you’ll start to see the patterns, you’ll see, you’ll see this, a lot of people are saying the same thing, maybe in different ways, but they’re all saying the same thing. And that usually, I consider that evidence, I consider that evidence of truth. But when you see one, one person saying one thing, and no one else is saying that I would say, you know, maybe there’s a little more ego involved, there are too much thought involved there.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Another tendency that tends to culture in me is just to sort of appreciate the validity of everybody’s perspective, not the exclusivity, I mean, if anybody tries to tell me that their truth is the only one or the best one or something like that, then I’m very wary. But but you know, everybody has a piece of the puzzle. And many of those pieces correspond or correlate, or agree with one another. But you know, very, but each one has its own flavor. Everybody has their own nervous system, their own makeup, their own background, and, and each one has their own flavor, just like, you know, many, many, many different reflectors would all reflect the sunlight slightly differently, even though it’s very same sunlight.

Wayne Wirs: I agree. We all have our different backgrounds. So we’re going to interpret what we see differently. And now I might say, I call her her and I personify the divine, where some people would call it the universe. Eckhart Tolle once said, you access the intelligence of the totality. So he’s kind of seeing is kind of abstract, but he’s saying what intelligence or the totality saying, the divine, he’s saying, it’s, there’s a there’s a brain there, so each person is going to see it differently. Absolutely. I totally agree with you. And I agree with you in the sense of anyone that says, Well, it’s my way or the highway? Well, obviously, they need a little growing, I think, you know,

Rick Archer: yeah. In fact, I’ve been corresponding periodically with this fundamentalist Christian guy who got in touch, and I started distinguishing for him that there is a difference, you know, between belief and experience. And I kind of emphasize that in various ways. After a while, I said, Well, you know, I never thought about that. And that that, because there’s this sense of just you should believe what’s in this book. And if you don’t believe it, you’re in trouble. And and there’s no question that about, gee, that might be an experience that this is actually pointing to, and it is much more important. It’s like I use the example of, you might be told that a restaurant is really good, and you believe your friend. And so you go on, stand on the sidewalk and read the menu and you starve to death reading the menu because you don’t go in and have the experience.

Wayne Wirs: The y’s have their scars. I’m telling you, it’s a wonderful saying the y’s ever get those scars get in there fail, and you know, you’ll you’ll become wiser because of it. Yeah. And I do this, I tell people all the time, you’ve got to live this stuff. You’ve got to live it. You can’t just think about it. If you just think about it. Yeah, it’s attractive to just think about it. And it’s hard. It’s very hard to live as a soul. It’s very hard to live is unconditional love. It’s very hard to expand in this emptiness and function the world, but you’ve got to do it. Because that’s the only way to learn. That’s the only way you’re going to become whole, you know?

Rick Archer: Yeah. So you write a blog and people read your blog, and you know, people are reading your blog, or it’s pretty much an intellectual exercise, reading a blog. But you yourself, did in prep, still do a lot of spiritual practice over many years. In order for it to be experiential for you and not just intellectual. You did some kind of meditation practice many hours a day and then you’ve done other things. So what do you genuinely recommend to people in order for this to be a living experience for them rather than just an intellectual fascination?

Wayne Wirs: Well, first of all, I like to break it down into qualities. All right, you have your mortal quality. We all know about that. That’s how we interact with the world. The soul quality is understanding your soul and the way to do that is just read the evidence and all my blog Wayne weirs.com. There’s a link in there about sole resources. I have links to a bunch of books. These aren’t just books on, Oh, I saw the light and stuff. No, they’re books which have evidence about other people confirming it. One of my favorites is a woman who died, she separated she went all the way above the hospital while she’s dead, obviously. And she saw a pair of shoes on only where the shoes were up on the roof in the corner, she described what kind of shoes they were. And then of course, I orderly went up there and found him. So that’s third party evidence. Yeah, that’s the kind of essay so read this evidence and then try to live it try to really feel it get it down into your being. And when you’re faced with a career decision, you can look at your life as a soul I live forever is this really so important? You know, maybe I should live true to my nature, rather than fearful of this is a stable job. And this might be something I really want to do, you know. So that’s bringing the soul into the world. That’s you separate from the soul, right? And then you integrate it, you bring it back together, you integrate it. The other quality I call radiance, this is unconditional love. This is that touching the tree type of thing with your eyes. Unconditional Love flows out. But most of us experience love as is mortal. I want something out of this relationship. I want something you know, so you separate from that mortal love, you become this unconditional love. And then you integrate it bring it together as unconditional love moving through you as a, as a Divine Being or as a manifest being.

Rick Archer: But hang on. Right. So, but hang on. So first of all, you know, I think it is really good to get an intellectual understanding of the fact that you know, this 80 year old 80 year life that we live is not the end of it. There’s just one episode and a long string of episodes. And there are a lot of great books and things that you can read to give you a deeper and deeper sense of that. Another good one there, Michael Newton’s Michael Newton, I think that’s his book pass law. Yeah, like between lives and, and there’s so many Om Betty Ed and Dannion Brinkley and James Van Praagh, and all these people have written great indie ebooks. But so that’s good, intellectual understanding. But then you’re saying, thing, you were just saying, though. Now I’ve talked too much

Wayne Wirs: bring it you’ll want to bring it into the world you want to as you what what happens when you lose the fear of death. That’s what the living as a soul is all about is you lose the fear of death death holds, you may not completely lose it, but at least you’ll not be as influenced fear won’t be such a big factor in your life. So you go from this fearful thing, to living as a soul, you’re much softer, I don’t believe in going from being immortal, to be enlightened, that big old jump that’s too big of a jump, you know, so weaken yourself. So you live as a soul. And as fear falls away, you’ll realize that you’ll be confronted with in life with always with these options, do I make a choice that safe? Or do I make a choice that I really want to do? A lot of times we make the safe choice, but when you live as a soul, you start doing the thing you really want to do. And that’s the practice, sometimes you’ll make the safe choice, you’ll get your scars, right. Which may be hard, but at least you’re feeling like you’re living true. That’s, that’s the practice of bringing the end of the world. And this is the eternal level.

Rick Archer: And one thing that comes into it is that there are karmic implications. I mean, this thing about doing what you really want to do might sound or could be interpreted as just sort of a selfish self serving kind of thing where, you know, to heck with my family, I want to be a ski bum or something

Wayne Wirs: like that. Yeah. You know, that’s wrong. But you know, that’s wrong. Right? You know, that selfish. So there’s your karma. And that’s not that’s not living as a soul that’s living as a selfish person just using it as an excuse. Yeah. You can say like, that’s almost like the spiritual teacher who’s who’s who comes from the separate sense. And he says, Well, I can abuse all these pretty girls that come to me because I’m this manifest thing. That’s just my body doing it. No, that’s

Rick Archer: an excuse. There. Yeah, there are teachers who have said just that, exactly.

Wayne Wirs: I know. Exactly. And that’s, that’s not a healthy way of living, that they didn’t integrate it, they didn’t integrate it back into their lives. And the same with a soul. When you integrate back into your life, you’re not going to hurt people because of the karmic implications Right, right. You’re gonna you’re gonna have to account for that in their in their review process, right? You’re gonna, when you’re laying on your deathbed, are you gonna want to look back and say, Oh, I have all these regrets. Are you gonna want to say I live true?

Rick Archer: Yeah, no, that’s great. And for those who sort of think that karma is a lot of bunk, keep thinking, keep, keep reading. I mean, again, if, if the universe is sort of orchestrated by infinite intelligence than there, then it can certainly calculate the destiny of each individual So each individual entity and, you know, in the interest of our growth and evolution, it’s not gonna let us just do stuff capriciously and self serving way there are going to be consequences because we need to learn lessons. Right?

Wayne Wirs: Right, absolutely. You’re going to regret these things, whether it’s in this life or the in between stage, wherever that is, or your you’re going to say, you know, I’m trying to get closer to God. That’s ultimately, I think, what the spiritual quest is, it’s definitely for the mystic, the mystic wants to get as close as possible to the Divine to her, and I, that’s all I want, I want to get as close as possible to her. So every time I feel like I’m shortchanging myself, or I’m selling out, because I want something for myself, I have to question that I have to look, this is going to take me away from her, right, because I’m going to regret that. So I need to be honest, I need to be true. That’s why I can be transparent on my blog. Because it’s all part of my spiritual growth, right, this confession, it’s like a constant confession, my blog. It’s like a Diary. Dear Diary, today, I screwed up. And it really is. So

Rick Archer: well, you know, there’s also Christ saying, Whatever you do unto the least of these you do unto me. So in terms of karma, you know, you’re hurting somebody by acting a certain way. You’re doing it to your you’re doing it to God, but you’re also doing it to yourself. And, and, you know, you’re going to feel it. Well, if you don’t feel immediately you’re going to feel it. Here’s a question that just came in. Dan from London asks, Wayne, describe that experience where the divine or she was flowing through him in the casino, and he quote, allowed it to flow, giving rise to the interactions he described. Does Wayne think that some people are at a stage where they are functioning from a place where the Divine is always flowing through them at all times? In the same way as it was for him for that period of time that he described in the casino?

Wayne Wirs: You know, that’s a very and that goes,

Rick Archer: hang on, your voice broke up. You said you just said that’s a very good question that we didn’t hear anything else. Okay.

Wayne Wirs: I would love to believe that. I don’t see any reason for it not to happen. I just have not seen anybody doing this yet. Again, I I’m a mystic. But I’m a rational mystic. I like evidence. So if there is someone out there like that, what I would ask them to do if they know of someone like this, ask that person to start blogging about their life, right? So that we can see how they deal with this in the real world. You know, how they when they get a flat tire, and 105 jerky weather and they step on a cactus at the same time, how they keep them swearing and stuff, you know, I don’t know. I I, you know, I’m saying I would love to see it. I think it has the potential for it. But since it’s not here, I don’t concern myself where I am trying to get as close as possible. But I can’t see that in this lifetime. For sure. You know, for myself,

Rick Archer: never say never.

Wayne Wirs: But never

Rick Archer: see that lady over my shoulder there.

Wayne Wirs: Yeah,

Rick Archer: Go check

Wayne Wirs: Is she the hugger?

Rick Archer: Right? Right. Have you ever seen her?

Wayne Wirs: Not in person? I’ve seen videos of her. I’m beautiful. I often feel that way. Yeah, I would love to do that. But I’m a guy. And you know, I’m still a little leery of the whole interacting yet with people. I’m still, like I said, it’s just starting to come together for me. Yeah. So

Rick Archer: I would, I’m not gonna get into a big trip about Dama right now, but I would encourage you to go see, or if you want to see an example of somebody who is just immersed, immersed in the Divine, and you know, 24/7 and just inexhaustibly expressing it. I mean, she literally has sat and hugged 50,000 People without getting off the couch, you know, for 1820 hours without even going to the bathroom, and never running out of steam, and greeting each person as if they were her long, less dearest. You no friend

Wayne Wirs: will see it. I’m glad you said that. Because when I feel this experience of her moving through, it’s like, you’re almost the observer of this happening. It’s like, there is an endless amount of energy and endless amount of love and stuff with me. It doesn’t last that long. Unfortunately, for me, it’s more of a it’s more of an it’s much more of an exception to the rule. So I’m glad you mentioned that because yeah, that’s who doesn’t want to live like that. Right? Yeah, that’s what I have that right.

Rick Archer: Well, should be coming to Seattle in a couple of weeks. Then Bay Area la siddhi. Santa Fe, yes, Santa Fe, Dallas and around the country. The schedule is on dama.org If you want to check it out.

Wayne Wirs: I will thank you.

Rick Archer: So anyway, this is going well. I’m enjoying this conversation.

Wayne Wirs: Well, if you want me to continue,

Rick Archer: Yeah please. Yeah, anytime. Yes.

Wayne Wirs: All right. Well, these other qualities there that was the eternal quality we were talking about, right? You live as a soul and you try to embody it. That weakens your ego trauma. initially by not having all that fear the next quality again I’m taking this from experience from I was living as a soul and I kind of got this in touch with things right with just before my frog minister that I call the radiant koi that is basically unconditional love flowing through you a lot like what you were just talking about with a I forget her name my mom,

Rick Archer: Amma,

Wayne Wirs: Amma

Rick Archer:  just means mother.

Wayne Wirs: You start to feel that and so you want to practice that too. You get you detach from your Mimi me love their mortal love. You get a handle on what Unconditional Love feels like and then you bring it back in and you project this and you allow yourself I call that radiance that takes years your ego goes from this to the soul to radiance. And now going to emptiness is a lot lot easier because your ego so weaker, it’s a lot easier to drop this the softness than it is this hard rock you know thing. So I guess what I’m advocating is a step by step approach to weakening the ego weakening being attached to your thoughts, you know, and of course the final stage is you try to see the ego try to see these thoughts try to detach from see how they’re causing you nothing but misery, right? I mean, this is constant meeting me, me, me, me me thing. And as you detach from your thoughts, then hopefully you’ll be able to let that go to, you know, and then integrate it and then integrate. So it’s more of a fading approach. Ironically, I wrote fading toward enlightened before the waking event. And yet that is exactly how I still advocate you know, so there’s something that

Rick Archer: yeah, and the way you describe it makes it sound like a person is doing a lot. Well they’re doing this and they’re touching their thoughts. And then they’re, you know, but but I think there’s also a lot of, I mean, you also did a lot and still maybe do meditation where you’re not really doing so much as you’re just kind of relaxing out of doing and making that a habit and letting the the divine sort of rearrange things in your makeup for you.

Wayne Wirs: Not really I hate to disagree with you. No, no, not really. I don’t meditate at all anymore. i You i commune and that might be a form of meditation. I commune with God I commune with nature, I I consciously expand and open go into that vastness. And it’s such a wonderful feeling in that vast area where there’s no you and there’s just her and nature and it’s all one I do that. That’s I wouldn’t say I would say that’s a daily practice, but not for very long. A lot of times when I go for walks in the woods, I do that. But I use these, I actually use each of these qualities as kind of a tool. When I’m caught up in my mind too much I go into the vastness because that’s what the emptiness is is detaching from your thoughts. When I’m sad or kind of down. For whatever reason I go into the radiance, I get in touch with the love and I feel this love flowing out, you know, so it’s a way of soothing it. When I need to make a decision. I’m taking it very seriously, I go into the eternal and I use that as a kind of puts everything in perspective knowing I live forever. And is it really that big a deal whether I go to Santa Fe, or I go to Dallas? I mean, is it really that big a day, you know, it’s not, you know, so I, I put things in perspective, it’s a way of helping me put things in perspective. And I guess you could call that a form of meditation. But by bringing it a lot, verbing is a part of your life, you don’t really need to do a formal thing anymore, as its integrated, you don’t need to do a formal thing anymore, you know, to find it,

Rick Archer: right. So I get the impression that in a way your your attention is very fruitful, it sort of should indicate, yeah, it kind of shifts your experience significantly. You know, you can easily shift into the heart or into the eternal or into the vastness or whatever, just by mirroring kind of intention. It

Wayne Wirs: just like, you know, you can intentionally touch your finger to the table, you know, and all of a sudden now your focus is on your finger, right? Yeah, it’s just you you shift your focus and you this felt sense of self and I don’t know what I am anymore. I can’t say I’m the observer. I can’t say I’m formless awareness. I just feel like I flow in between these states. It’s a constant. It does it by itself. Sometimes Sometimes I get caught up in my mind, I get sucked down into that. And then when the problem whatever it is, my mind is trying to solve is done. I expand back out I tend to hang out in the radiance and the upper soul level. You can see I tend to hang out up there because that’s actually a very useful area to live from. emptiness. Emptiness is a very useful, beautiful, blissful but you can’t really do much. I mean, I look at Eckhart Tolle, I think he probably couldn’t survive without a caregiver, right? He’s got his girlfriend wife now, but I think could he survive without this caregiver? You know, this woman kind of arranging everything for him? Because I think he’s he’s well out into that emptiness and I love him. Don’t don’t I’m not dissing him at all. I’m just not sure it’s balanced. You know, his his perspective?

Rick Archer: Yeah, I don’t know. I did hear that Kim Aang had a lot to do with his integration that, you know, he was pretty much good for sitting on park benches for quite a while. And then she helped she has helped him a lot sort of good. Yeah, integrate in the world.

Wayne Wirs: Accidental, you know, I think that’s the difference. Most people who are watching this, you know, they’re trying to find it. So they got a kind of an idea of what to expect when they separate. Here’s what happened. It was like a shock to his system. So I think it’s like, you know, it was it was too much of a shock to his system for him to easily integrate it, you know, so I think that’s why his it’s so powerful, but it’s also a little, a little, I think it’s a little naive, it’s not very practical, his his his experience of it. At least it was I don’t know, I don’t know how he is, if he is that way anymore. He this is I ran into him when he first wrote power him now I really didn’t follow up much after that.

Rick Archer: He’s probably a lot more integrated now. So Alright, so let’s reiterate these four or five qualities that you enumerated. Let’s just run through them again, and describe the experience and the significance of each one just because I think it’s important and we want to kind of leave people with the memory of that, not that we’re finished with the interview, but let’s just go through them again.

Wayne Wirs: Okay, well, the mortal we are all familiar with a mortal to me, me, me me thing, right? It’s required to function in this world. It’s very practical. You This is how you integrate the world. I often think of this as my mortal burqa, it’s something I have to wear, you know, the eternal, which is the soul, you realize your soul, you do the research on you find out that yeah, okay, I live forever. Therefore, I get another life after this and another, and that, in the grand scheme of things, decisions don’t need to be based on fear as much right now, obviously, you want to be you know, you don’t want to take it too far. But you don’t need to take fear as a major player in your decisions. So it helps ease your fears, and it helps weaken your ego, then the radiance, which is love you, you start to realize every action you’ve ever done was based on love, you really do, right? I hit that guy, because he was hitting on my wife, because I love my wife, right? Everything is done from love, and you start getting in touch with this love. And that helps you get connected with everything you see. Because love is a relationship. It’s you can’t just love without any object to love. And it brings you a connection to things. Finally, there’s the the emptiness, which is what most non dual teachers focus on is the emptiness quality, which is when you separate from your thoughts, and you realize all boundaries are concepts are thoughts, and they fall away. And there’s this vast experience of oneness, right? So and then of course, you want to bring it all together, so you can bring it into the world, you bring it back into this mortal coil, you know, you can bring it into the world.

Rick Archer: Okay, you know, but one sense I get when you sit when you go through that is that for many, many people are going to hear that as a description rather than a prescription. In other words, yeah, sounds good. I understand the stages you’re talking about. But can you give me a prescription to actually experience those stages and live them myself? Rather than just hear your description of how you went through them?

Wayne Wirs: Okay, well, like I say, you first. You mean how you apply it to the world well apply to your life? Well, in

Rick Archer: a way, it’s like easier said than done. Sure, we can read some books on NDAs and reincarnation, all that we can get a sense of that. But then there’s this sort of radians and awakening of the heart and awakening to the eternal, you know, nature of unbounded consciousness and all that stuff. For many people might consider that more easily said than done. They would like to have that awakening, but they don’t find it happening. And, you know, how do they make it happen?

Wayne Wirs: Right? Okay, um, one, I don’t think you can make someone step through the gateless gate. I don’t think you can consciously make yourself step through the gateless gate, if that was possible. Everybody the awake, right? That’s the evidence. The evidence says it’s not possible because if it was, someone would say how to do it, and everybody would be awake. So I think it has to kind of happen. But you can get yourself close to the gate a weakening your ego. And so like I say, you want to live as a soul. And you though you the way you apply it to the real world is when you have a decision to make. You say, all right. I’m feeling fear about this career direction I should take I really want to go this way. But I’m kind of afraid to ask to go that way. All right. If you live when you live as a soul, you’ll say there’s no reason to be afraid. You know, what differences make in 100 years from now? What difference does it make 10 years from now a buddy of mine are Vera both things he says, Well, what would 88 year old Glenn think about making that decision? So it kind of puts it in perspective right? It’s like, Well, I wish I would have made that decision, you know? Yeah. So this is how you can apply it, right? You see yourself as a soul. And you apply it by just bringing it into making decisions. Usually, oil is good for decisions. With love. You see, with radiance, you see how you, I can look at you and I can feel love for you. Because again, there’s that touching, right? I know, there’s this this light inside you and I know it’s inside me. And so when I’m communicating with you, I can communicate with you as a friend like I’ve known for years. And yeah, this is our first communications first time we’ve talked, right? If I’m not feeling that, right, I can see what is it that’s blocking that what is blocking that, you know, and you can look at that, and you can let that go. So this way you can apply this is a, I think this is what you mean by prescription, right? I’m giving you a way of applying it to the world, right? You can look at your own actions. It’s all about what monitoring your own actions. And emptiness is the hardest one, you know, that’s why there’s so much focus on it is that you see your thoughts and you see how seriously they’re affecting you. They are making you miserable most of the time, right. And you say, okay, am I my thoughts, you know, and you try to separate that’s that neti neti neti, not this not this, not this. Not that thought, Oh, not that thought. That’s the hardest one, to be honest with you, you know, and no one’s really gotten that one down yet, I’m afraid, I mean, a way of teaching it to legitimately like, boom, you’re awake, you know? So

Rick Archer: yeah. Okay. I would say that, you know, there’s all kinds of possibilities that people can do in terms of practices, teachings, teachers, all sorts of stuff. And, you know, I would just say to people, if you feel drawn to a particular thing, you know, check it out, try it, do it, you know, seek and you shall find, because, I mean, you live in a van, and life is relatively easy for you. You mentioned a period where you had to earn money, and it was hell sitting in a cubicle for eight hours doing software programming. Yeah. And it wasn’t as conducive to the kinds of experiences you’re talking about now as the life you are now living. But you know, some people have to have that job in the cubicle, they’ve got kids to support or whatever. So, but I don’t think that excludes them from the possibility of awakening, or spiritual evolution. So I would say to such people, you know, don’t feel discouraged that you can’t go live in a van, check out what’s possible for you know, absolutely something, do some yoga, do some meditation, whatever seems to appeal to you?

Wayne Wirs: Yes. And but I would caution that the definition of crazy is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results. All right. So if it’s not working for you definitely shift to something else. Keep trying, don’t get attached to any one. Teaching. And again, you know, find those patterns. Like they say, you see all these patterns and stuff, go with what feels right. You know, yeah, I live in a van. But you can still apply these same teachings to working in a cubicle to you know, I’m attached to this, or I’m attached to that, that sort of thing. Yeah. But yes, it’s definitely easier. When you’re single, when you’re single, you don’t have responsibilities. And honestly, you just don’t care about what happens. It’s a definitely easier. Yeah.

Rick Archer: Which is why the whole tradition of monastic life came into being,

Wayne Wirs: you know, yes, absolutely. There’s definitely benefits to it. Yeah. And there have been some people who’ve,

Rick Archer: you know, adhered to the monastic life who have, you know, taught that it’s very difficult for non monastics to have this kind of experience. But there are so many exceptions to the contrary, especially in this day and age. It’s, you know, quite kind of, I know, plenty of people who are living, so called worldly lives, with jobs and kids and all the rest, who have, who are enjoying exalted levels of consciousness or levels of Enlightenment, you know, really profound stuff that would make any monk green with envy.

Wayne Wirs: Absolutely, the whole goal is to reintegrate the whole, to integrate it with your real life to You know, that’s why I say I spend time in solitude, but I spend time around people to you know, but I would have had a very hard time myself, because of my, my nature, the way you know, I am doing this around all the confusion, you know, that comes along with the mortal social life, you know, but it’s just my nature. I mean, everyone’s got to find their own path. Like you said, I totally agree with that.

Rick Archer: Yeah. So I’m looking at your notes here, you said, there’s a note that says my current my current focus, what’s your current focus? Oh, I’m

Wayne Wirs: merging with her to get as close as possible with her to see it’s almost like it when you get to this, this, this softness level, you start to see what I call archetypes. You start to see the very subtle aspect. You start to see self, very subtle pieces of almost like the collective consciousness is nature, you know, and I’m trying to see those and let go of those so I can merge with her Little more merged with her and boy, self concern comes up very it’s a very subtle, tricky thing. Like, I’ll be driving along and I think where am I going to stay tonight? That’s a sense of self concern. Where am I gonna make camp? No, because you don’t want be roused by the cops, I tell you, it’s miserable. So you want to find one to five? That’s a sense of self concern. So you see that contraction? And ideally, I’d just be able to let it go and say, let go and let God you know, but I don’t always do that, you know. So that’s my current focus is to bring myself is harmony with her will, which you don’t always know. But he’s had that kind of faith, like, like the great mystics, you know, to have that kind of faith. That’s what I’m working on now.

Rick Archer: Yeah. And you know, God helps those who help themselves so if God were speaking to you, he might say, We’re gonna camp tonight look in your campground index, but dummy and others, there’s something 50 miles down the road, that’s really probably gonna captain,

Wayne Wirs: maybe I maybe I don’t know, I go back and forth on that, you know, I, if I feel like it’s at a fear, I don’t feel that’s that’s me surrendering to her. If I can let go of that fear, that’s when it usually works out. It’s the weirdest thing. It’s like, when you let go of that fear, you let go to stuff. It’s the stuff magically happens, it’s so wonderful. And I’m trying to establish that faith, it’s almost like a belief goes from here, down into here. And when it comes down to here, everything starts to work out. And so that’s really what I’m working with. That’s very subtle levels. Yeah.

Rick Archer: Yeah. So give us a bit more elaboration and examples. If you can have you mentioned archetypes, and how you kind of cognize your experience archetypes and somehow derive some wisdom from that experience, make it a little bit more clear. For us.

Wayne Wirs: It is hard because you’re talking about such subtle things. But whenever I’m going about my life, and I’m thinking about self concern, or self consciousness, all right, I’ll go into a restaurant or something I’ll eat by myself, you know, people are looking at you, like, Who’s that guy, you know, I use that as practice, I use this to let go to let go, you know, to talk to strangers, like I’m not one to I’m an introvert. So talk to strangers was very difficult. So sometimes I’ll say, Okay, I’m just gonna go talk to that person, you know, just just open up, and I’m not going to talk small talk, I’m going to list we’re going to get in deep, pretty quick, you know, and I’ll watch that fear. So and it comes up, you know, it’s part of a lot of people call it conditioning, but I call it these archetypes. They’re in there, they’re in you are in them. The fear in everybody and everybody they’re in within us, there are human archetypes, you know, they’re they’re part of our nature. So I’ll be dealing with those because I see these as keeping me separate from her from the Divine Right. So that’s kind of, kind of if that makes any sense of what I’m trying to say is I see these very subtle levels of self, right, self that are separate from her.

Rick Archer: I see. I think I understand so so by, go ahead. Right now, please. Oh, so as I understand what you’re saying that by archetypes, you mean, subtle blocks or not, not, we could say, within your makeup within your being, which are occluding, the clear, you know, appreciation and flow of her of the device. And that these kind of come to your attention, perhaps either in a in an inner kind of inner directed sort of meditative phase where you’re just staring at the trees, or maybe when you’re in a restaurant, and you can, and you’re sort of getting the habit of noticing these things, and giving them whatever attention they need in order to unwind and

Wayne Wirs: right, you’ll see yourself kind of kind of contracting a little bit out of some almost like an unconscious reaction. The other night, all right. The other night, I had to, I had to take a leak, excuse me, you know, and I open up the door, and I hear this big noise out there and note in the dark, you know, and there’s this low contraction, oh, is that a bear? Or is it is it a person out there, you know, you feel this contraction? So you face that and you say, Okay, I see this contraction, and it’s almost like, I’m worried more about this contraction or whatever the hell was making that noise out there. You know, I’m focusing on this and I step out there. And of course, I don’t know what it was turned out to be nothing, no danger or anything like that. But you see this contraction happening, added the vastness and out of this, this harmony with her, you see the self contraction in the I don’t care how much you say, you’re one with the Divine, these things are gonna come up in the real world. So I use the real world as my practice, if that makes sense.

Rick Archer: Does, yeah, sure. I mean, especially if, if, as we were saying earlier, divine intelligence is omnipresent and orchestrating everything, then the real world isn’t just dumb objects. No bumbling around. It’s everything is an expression of intelligence. intent is all as well and wisely put in the world as my guru, you know, there’s everything happens for a reason, not an intellectual reason, but an evolutionary reason,

Wayne Wirs: right. And from a physical point of view, you’re trying to become in harmony with that, too. So this is not just a, like you say, it’s not just an intellectual thing, you feel this is an emotional level, you feel this contraction and emotional level, and you use that as like a reminder a bell or something to Hey, wait a minute, you’re, here it is, here it is. And this is a great time to play with, this is a great time to experiment with this now. And so you can use those to open up and to see this, the subtle archetypes, how much they affect our lives. This is this is way deeper than most people probably need to, but you asked me what I’m working on currently. And that’s kind of what I’m working on.

Rick Archer: I think a lot of people would be able to relate to this. Okay, good. Good. Yeah. And the thing about contractions, I mean, they if if a, if a wave of fear is the you know, is the reaction to noise in the dark, might be a good idea to be cautious. I mean, it might be a bear, you know, you don’t want to go bumbling into it. So

Wayne Wirs: I mean, but but rather than reacting to it from fear, you can at least now look at it and see that fear are rising, you’d get definitely if it’s a bear, get the hell out of there, you know. But what I’m saying is, it’s better to see that fear and then react to it. Because if you react to it, you’re not really learning much from it. But when you start to see it, now you can say, All right, now I can see this, this contraction coming out, I can see the self contracting out of the vastness into this fearful entity and knowing you can find harmony, you can start saying, okay, I can see how that’s working. That’s keeping me from the Divine that fear, you know, and, and I’m not saying you go just go and pet a bear. I’m not saying that at all. Don’t Don’t go petting bears. You know, you do. It’s all about a learning experience of yourself. It’s all about growing. It’s all about the it never ends. I don’t think it ever ends. You’re just constantly using life as a teacher. Yeah.

Rick Archer: Now that’s good. Yeah, I mean, there are people who sort of do stupid things like climb into the lions pit in a zoo or something, because they think they’re one with blinds, and they end up getting mauled. So obviously, there needs to be some kind of

Wayne Wirs: absolute or worst case, they have such faith and that they have such a faith in God that they don’t give their children medicine or something like that. That’s terrible. You know, when you’re especially when you’re factoring someone else,

Rick Archer: yeah. There’s a There’s a joke that I’ve been an hour reminding ourselves of the other day, I’m sure you’ve heard this one where it’s not so much a joke, but there’s a flood, right, it’s raining and it’s flooding. And there’s some guy who, you know, the National Guard says, Get out of there, you know, you’re gonna you’re gonna drown if you don’t leave your house. And he says, no, no, don’t worry about it, God will take care of me. So he stays. And you know, then after a while a boat comes along, so you better get in, you know, this flood is getting worse. And he says, no, no, no, don’t worry about God will take care of me. So eventually, like the floods getting worse, he sees up on the roof. And a helicopter hovers overhead said, Come on, climb onto the rope, you know, we got to save you. And he said, No, don’t worry about it. God will take care of me. And then the waters rise and he drowns. So he goes to heaven. And he says, God, you know, I thought you were gonna take care of me. And God said, What do you want? I sent you two boats and a helicopter.

Wayne Wirs: Absolutely. You know what the funny thing is a reader of mine commented on that when this is such such a synchronicity. Here it is, here it is, you know, a comment on that when you get when Irene got in touch with me to be on this interview, and I blogged about so well, I get this intermediate interview thing. And then I explained to Irene about how I’m on this internet connection, I’m a little worried, you know, I’m not sure if that’ll work. She says, Oh, well, okay, we’ll do something. We’ll you know, you can’t do this, then basically. And there’s, you know, and, and then I said, well, and I told that on the blog, and someone related that episode. And I said, Well, I was thinking about doing Skype interviews anyway, for, you know, students and stuff. Let me just try the Skyping out and I tried it with my brothers and stuff. It worked out, it worked out just like it is doing now. And I told I read about that. So I kind of I kind of said, Okay, well, I’ll let what happens. And I said, Well, here’s the Skype thing I’m wanting to do. And it kind of worked out with that rain. Here we are, you know, it’s it’s, it’s kind of the exact same thing. I was like, well, whatever God’s gonna take care of it. And yet, I still did have to get involved. You know, that’s the point. I still did have to be proactive. But it’s a more of a flowing type thing rather than oh my god, what am I going to do? You know, so yeah,

Rick Archer: I mean, it’s a good analogy. Yeah. I guess one way of explaining it is, you know, don’t expect God to always be working through miracles, because the whole world is a miracle. And so everything that happens is God doing it in apparently mundane ways that are nonetheless miraculous when you get right down to it.

Wayne Wirs: Well, the way I experienced this in life, because I it is a tricky area is it has to flow. I tend to flow with things, but I will have to sometimes do proactive stuff, obviously we all do, you know, but I tell I only do the proactive stuff in the direction I’m being led, I don’t try to my mind says I need to go over there. I don’t try to go over there if the flow is going to the right and my mind saying go to the left, or go to the right, but I’ll still work with it, you know, I’m saying it’s, it’s kind of a, it’s a you’re working, it’s a relationship, it really is. It’s a work relationship with the divine, you could say are with the world.

Rick Archer: That brings up an interesting theme, which is that it seems to be in my experience, that there’s a balance between flowing with the Divine and individual intention. And, you know, one could just sort of like flow have this attitude of, of just flow with the Divine and become kind of aimless or weak willed. And the and the other extreme one could sort of be adamant about I want it this way, you know, and divine be damned, I’m going in this direction, neither of those works. But there’s a sort of a balance that one learns to strike in which I guess we could say the Divine is primarily in the driver’s seat, but there’s still some individual intention through which the divine which divine needs in order to do its thing. Would you care to comment on that? Yeah, I

Wayne Wirs: would like to think of it. She’s more of a guy think of her as like Sacajawea guiding you along. You don’t have to go that way. But she knows the easiest path, so to speak, you know, and so you kind of go with her, but you still want to explore areas, you still want to do these things. But it she’s a guide. And it shall make it easier if you flow that way. But she’s not expecting you not to rock the boat too. You’ve got to get involved. Also, you’ve got to be part of rowing that canoe, you can’t just if you go right down wherever life flows, then you’re almost getting into too much of a almost a new age. Everything will work out you know what she was that’s gullible. That’s gullible. And you don’t want to be that either. Because it is it’s a shared experience. It’s me and her. It’s not just her. And it’s just as me that me, me me thing is saying, I’m going to go that way. Right? Right. It’s a shared experience. And you have to kind of get a feel for that it’s a kind of a tricky thing to get a feel for that. But it’s not just going with the flow and it’s not going your own way. It’s a it’s a harmony, it’s a bringing it together kind of thing. It’s like rolling the canoe to avoid rocks that might come up along the current, you’re still going with the current but you’re avoiding the obvious dangers and stuff.

Rick Archer: Yeah. And if we are, since origins of the infinite or instruments of the Divine, hello, everyone we are Yeah, and we are and then it’s not like our individual intention is somehow different from or, you know, necessarily 20 degree in opposition to the Divine Will if we want to use that phrase, but it’s actually a faculty of it. So, you know, you might just feel like I feel like driving to Montana now. But you know, and it seems like my feeling my desire my decision, but it could very well be that you know, you That decision is in is entirely prompted by some higher order of intelligence by some divine intention and it just kind of experience objectively as an individual desire.

Wayne Wirs: No, absolutely it she’s sure. And it’s not just in internally, you’ll see it externally for example, just happened today. I was deciding where I’m going to go from here, whether I go to Colorado or whether I go to Flagstaff and maybe up to Utah, but it was kind of like I have to decide one way or the other. And then I was headed leaning toward Colorado but then I just got an email a friend of mine another full time rver who’s in Flagstaff so I thought well maybe I’ll head over to Flagstaff you know, it’s like so I wasn’t sure which way to go I could go either way I was kind of drawing my mind was and desires withdrawn one way but then I hear this like little bell sound go over this way and I want to see the guy and hang out with him for a while so I’ll go over there you know and then maybe from there maybe I’ll go to Colorado from there. Again you kind of you kind of flow with this you don’t get to attach to what I want Mee Mee Mee Mee wants, you know you kind of you kind of open yourself up to these experiences and you’ll feel it’ll feel right when you’re flowing along with her and it will always work out it’s the amazing thing.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I have a really good friend by the way who has an apartment in Flagstaff He also lives up in Tuba City area but we feel like getting together with him he I think

Wayne Wirs: I love Flagstaff. Yeah, Flagstaff’s a beautiful area. It’s beautiful.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Okay, when we got here, let’s see. This is funny thing here in your notes. Short Hair equals five years ago, and right after the awakening event, so I come across as a bit of a bit overconfident and pompous long hair equals never more mystical leanings. What’s that all about?

Wayne Wirs: Oh, you know, you can see it takes a long time for you to pull your hair out so you can kind of See the difference between the way I was when I first woke up again, there’s that separation, I think it pause there. But there’s that separation right after I woke up, that’s when the short hair was like, speak very much like a, you know, many non dual teachers, it’s all about the emptiness, quality. Whereas as I was adapting to this, though, I didn’t cut my hair the whole time that was happening. And as I adapted into this, and then the mystical aspect, the more integrated aspect came upon it, and those videos are more toward the way I believe now even though those are like two years old, too, you know, so now I just cut my hair every month because it’s such a pain in the butt to have long hair.

Rick Archer: It’s why have a beard give this opinion but the shave it is yeah. We’ve been we’ve touched upon this, when I’m looking at your notes, I want to come back to it. Because this is such a sweet point. I recognize that synchronicity ongoing odds defying Good luck, implies a divine intelligence, practically all authentic non dual teachers acknowledges intelligence, totally the in the intelligence of the totality, Adyashanti God and drag, but a few, but few seem to focus on the implications. That is a singular divine intelligence, Tao, God, her is real. So let’s just before we’re finished, let’s let’s talk a little bit more about this divine intelligence thing. Because I think that’s the direction in which your experience is evolving more and more and more. And if I talk to you five years from now, you’ll probably say, Whoa, yeah, it’s grown so much that the appreciation of that has grown so much since I last spoke to you. And I think that it is that is also true of the spiritual community at large, many people who are all about this kind of like, impersonal non duality 10 years ago are now thinking and experiencing in terms of divine intelligence and more of a heart oriented thing. So let’s just play with that a bit more.

Wayne Wirs: Yeah, you could almost say that this is evidence of God couldn’t you? Right, when at when all these people especially these, these, these, a lot of these advanced enlightened people are talking about this? You can almost say that this is evidence of God, the synchronicities that constant happen the life lining up, the less there is a you the more there is this magical world opening up and like you say, it’s like the intelligence of every little thing kind of works for you, you know, it’s almost evidence of God. I mean, I don’t know how else to explain it. It’s just like, you know, there’s evidence to the soul. People say, oh, there’s no such thing as the soul or there’s no such thing as God. It’s like, they’re almost like in denial of the evidence, right? It’s hard for me to imagine an atheist being awake. I just can’t imagine it. I can’t imagine an atheist being awake and enlightened.

Rick Archer: Yeah, that puzzles me. Because they say Buddhism is atheistic, you know that they don’t take God into account. And that’s always been a head scratcher for me. And maybe I need to learn more about Buddhism. It by the same token, it’s hard for me to imagine a I know there are millions of them. But it’s hard for me to imagine a scientist or a doctor being an atheist, because they’re looking at something so closely, that is so evidently, an expression of infinite intelligence, how can they not see it? You know, it’s staring them in the face?

Wayne Wirs: Well, you know, I think what it is you get caught up in the details and these little facts and don’t go looking at the source of the fact. Just, yeah, good point. They say, well, there was there was this expand, but we don’t know what happens. So we just want you to think about it. It’s like gravity. What, why does, you know masses attract when we call it gravity? And that we stopped thinking about it. Right? Once we get a name, we start thinking about it.

Rick Archer: Yeah. He was always laws of nature. And all the scientists study the laws of nature, but what’s behind those laws? I mean, you know, I seem to recall that Francis Crick was an atheist, you know, one of the discoverers of DNA. And so he’s studying this marvelous thing. And, you know, the way it replicates and repairs itself and all that is so incredible. That’s not little billiard balls banging into each other. There’s, there’s an orderliness there and intelligence that is just mind boggling. How could he be an atheist?

Wayne Wirs: No, I used to be an atheist, you know, because I was very rational, you know, and then this stuff started happening over and over again, and the atheism started weakening, even pre pre awakening, but after you know, because my first vision of her was through LSD, I hate to say don’t know if we were allowed to talk about that. motto, but, but yeah, and but, but here’s, let me I’m gonna digress a second here. The way you tell the difference between a vision and a memory is a vision. You don’t know what’s going to happen. But a memory it hit you all at once. Bang, your first kiss, you know what happened, right? You don’t have to think about you’re not thinking that you’re going to kiss me or not have that right. You know what happened? That’s a memory. That’s the way that vision that LSD vision was for me, bang it happened all at once and all those experiences that I had during it, so that softened my atheist. them, but the constant synchronicities the constant things lining up and I could say I’m a mystic, I’m a rational mystic. I couldn’t deny it any longer. I had nothing i There’s no other explanation for life working out for you as you weaken, then that she’s coming awake, right and that they’re coming together and that’s why I stopped being an atheist that’s when I officially became a mystic.

Rick Archer: That’s beautiful. And and of course, you know, when when people say they’re atheists very often, they’re, you know, I would say to many atheists, hey, I don’t believe in the same God you don’t believe in? You know, because? Because they’re talking about some, you know, dude in the sky, you know, who’s just sort of like, you know, Thou shalt not Yeah, mythical character who likes to smite people. And and it’s easy not to believe in that, but what we’re talking about is entirely different. Another problem people have is that, you know, look at the Holocaust, or, you know, child slavery or something like that. They say, How could there be a god to allow? Who would allow such things to happen?

Wayne Wirs: You if you hope you’re not asking me that? Because I don’t know. I do know that it is that. What ego does? It seems the mind does is it bends. This is a theory, I don’t have proof on this. So I like to, I like to stress that I’ve proof on almost all evidence for almost everything else I say. But my theory. So it’s a belief is that the mind bends this flow of God through us, and it bends it to our will, you know, I’m saying and so we corrupt that loving nature to me, me, me, and will do terrible things. When it’s all about me, me, me, we will say, I don’t care if you live or die, as long as I get some money from it. No, I don’t care. I’m me, me, me, me, me, I’m more important than you, you you, you know, that’s the mind bending. This love her flowing through us. And so that’s why I say the less there is of us, the more there is of that pure aspect of her. And yeah,

Rick Archer: no, I think that’s a good answer to the,

Wayne Wirs: that’s a very, I don’t have any evidence on that. It’s just a theory. So I’d like to stress that on my blog is like, this is something I’m thinking of, but I don’t really have any evidence of it yet. So

Rick Archer: yeah, well, that’s the way science works in yours. I would say you’re a scientific guy in the way you operate in you form, you know, science forms, theories. And it’s, they’re not meant to be beliefs or, you know, etched in stone. They’re meant to be avenues for investigation. And then they you test, you test them out, you see if you can experience something which is going to either refute or substantiate the theory.

Wayne Wirs: Yes. And that’s my, that’s my whole beliefs. That’s my whole way of living. Ya know, like I said, the y’s had their scars, you gotta test it out.

Rick Archer: Yeah. And you take it step by step. So, personally, I don’t see that science and spirituality are, you know, contradictory in any way? I think that true spirituality is a scientific endeavor.

Wayne Wirs: Yeah, and I got that from Ken Wilber when I was reading him way back when he said, you know, listen to these theories, and then test them out for yourself, find out if they work for you, you know, just but do the experiment that he was stressing, do the experiment. And I’m all for that. Find out for yourself. You know,

Rick Archer: the Buddha said something like that you’ve probably heard the quote, he just said don’t believe something just because I said it. He said, you know, test it out. My basically said, test it out through your own experience through your own inquiry and understanding. Don’t take anything on faith. Right, right. And regarding this whole thing, you know, how could the Holocaust happened and all that and there yet, and yet there be a god? This, again, is theoretical, but it seems to me that if you’re going to have a relative creation, you’ve got to have opposites and polarities, you know, if there’s going to be hot, there’s got to be cold, if there’s going to be faster, it’s got to be slow. And if there’s going to be good, that’s going to be bad. There’s a whole spectrum of possibilities across a very wide range in every way you look at it. And, and also people evolve. And through various various stages and Guy interrupt, yes, please. Not.

Wayne Wirs: This, this opposite. And this, the good and the bad. And everything I was saying it’s the opposite ends of the same thread is the way I look at that it is one thing, but you can’t have a thread without two ends. If you cut that thread right in the middle, suddenly, this is the good side. And this is the best you cut through the middle. You know what I’m saying? It keeps getting smaller, but it’s still the same concept. So the mind is saying good and bad. But really the the archetype is good, bad together. Good and bad to gates is one concept. It’s a, whatever you want to call it. We don’t even have a word for what good and bad is, you know, maybe we do but I can’t think of it. But yeah, so it’s just a mind breaking this these concepts, these archetypes out so it can explain it but it’s really one thing and that’s the doubt a Ching right, the yin and the yang one can’t exist without the other.

Rick Archer: But I think it’s good to ponder this stuff because just like you say, you know, by reading a bit about it In a near death experiences and reincarnation or it can really broaden your perspective. A lot of people get tripped up by this question of, you know, how can there be some kind of divine intelligence when such horrible things happen? And it’s, you know, you need to think about that and ponder how there could be, and how it would be possible within a kind of vastly diverse universe. I mean, if we think of there, there have been times when most of the life on Earth has been wiped out by an asteroid strike, and it’ll happen again. And, you know, there’ll be a time when the sun will expand and completely engulf the earth. And, you know, right about that time, I think, you know, the Earth will start becoming molten that the climate change deniers will admit, we’ve got a problem. But

Wayne Wirs: and, and the universe will contract back into the the pre Big Bang state again, and then it’ll come back out again, it’s always cyclical. Yeah, so it’s going around, you know, and I guess you can see that she doesn’t take this stuff too seriously, even though we is we being affected by a child dying, or a loved one being hurt badly, you know, of course, it affects us, you know, and it’s part of our learning experience, it’s part of being human, and I don’t think we should deny it, you know, it, we should understand it, and we should feel it. And we should learn to say this is this is the cost of living, so to speak. This is how I, this is how I grow. This is the end of the scars, the y’s have their scars, you know,

Rick Archer: and all that we just referred to, implies a lot of death and destruction and suffering. But it’s part of the kind of the whole cosmic process. But, you know, as Tennyson said, Men may come and men may go, but I go on forever. So there’s, there’s a sort of eternality to what we really are, that is just be not going to be destroyed or touched by these changes, either, you know, in the course of the at the end of this lifetime, or at the end of the lifetime of the universe.

Wayne Wirs: Right now. Absolutely. Like there’s no such thing as death. You know, it just keeps going and going and gone, you know, changes, that’s all there’s, there’s there is such a thing as change. And that is what life is, you know, life is change, but there’s no such thing as death. You know, there’s no, there’s no opposite to it to life.

Rick Archer: Yeah. In the in the Bhagavad Gita, Lord Krishna says, There was never a time when I was not, nor you, nor these rulers of men, nor will there ever be a time when all of us shall cease to be.

Wayne Wirs: Yeah, it’s beautiful. And I wish we could, it’s hard to keep that in mind when we’re suffering, you know, obviously, but

Rick Archer: it sounds kind of glib, you know, to say this, but, but it really helps. I mean, I really appreciated that aspect of your videos in your writings that, you know, to culture, that kind of perspective. I mean, it makes a big difference in your life. I remember, you know, the guy who played Perry Mason, who was at Raymond Burr, I heard that I heard that when he was on his deathbed, he was utterly terrified. And he actually tried to sit for days on end so as not to die because he was afraid of going out of existence. And, you know, probably many people die like that.

Wayne Wirs: Yeah, that’s a shame, isn’t it? That a lot of people that you hear they, once they accept it, there’s a sense of peace that comes over them? You hear that too? So yeah, there’s a two different attitudes toward it, you know, and I like the Dalai Lama’s attitude myself, he says, I kind of look forward to dying, I kind of want to see how it, what it how well I do. You know, I like that attitude. So you lose the fear of it, you know, it’s a, it’s a part of a growth process.

Rick Archer: And that’s what a lot of these near death experience authors say to guys like James on Prague, and so on. They say, you know, I died. And it was great. You know, I’m not afraid of it at all, it’s gonna be a marvelous adventure.

Wayne Wirs: Right? You don’t need to hurry it along. I’m not saying no long, but you just think it is part of the growth process, you know, and that’s whether that’s what the near death experience is what past lives, you know, these children who recall previous lives, that’s what it all points to, there’s nothing that points to we blink out. That’s the assumption that consciousness is part of the mind. And yet, everybody who is separated from themselves and near death experiences, they are able to think, even though they don’t have a mind, you know, they don’t have a brain so to speak, they’re still able to perceive so there’s still there’s still life in that sense. So yeah, it’s sad that we are so fearful of death over here in this in the West, you know, but

Rick Archer: there’s an interesting implication to what you’re just saying, too, which is the sort of the certain faction of the non dual crowd, you know, says that there is no reincarnation because that would imply the existence of some sort of individuality and there is no individuality. But the the experience of nd people and people who were remember their past lives, belies that assumption.

Wayne Wirs: It’s just a burqa just like this body is a burqa that I need to function in this world. The soul is a burqa that I need to function between lives as I move between lives, right? And then love is a form of a Berkut. So it’s another layer. It’s a form of burqa, it is how life lives you No, it’s it is the the life force, you could think of it as you know. And then there’s the emptiness, which is another layer, you know, but like I say, I don’t know what goes on in your mind. So I’m not there at the end yet, you know what I’m saying? So, I see these as all I can say, I see it as flowing between these states, rather than being a fixed point, you know, being this fixed thing. You know, I’m not I don’t know what I am. But you know, and I think you feel that way too. In many ways. You know, I think most people do, but it’s, they’re almost told it’s wrong or something. I don’t know. No.

Rick Archer: Buckminster Fuller wrote a book called I seem to be a verb.

Wayne Wirs: There’s a good that’s a very good quote. Yeah, I like I like,

Rick Archer: okay, so I’m trying to see if there’s anything else I can squeeze out of you, that won’t be redundant, because we’ve we’ve covered a lot of good stuff. But um, is there any, anything that you feel that’s important that we haven’t touched upon?

Wayne Wirs: Just that, rather than trying to jump from one, this mortal coil to Enlightenment? I think that that there you can fade, I think the fading aspect aspect is much healthier and much more practical. The other is, I changed my mind. I thought I could talk people into how to wake up and you see it on my weird blog, how to wake up or something like that, you know, I don’t think that can happen. I don’t think the mind can drop the mind. I don’t think you know, because it’s so tight, tightly bound, I think that almost has to be a mistake. So rather than focusing on the enlivenment, just focus on weakening, just focus on opening and opening and opening and allow yourself to flow back and forth. That’s what I would tell anyone who’s seeking these things, just get comfortable with this flow. And the more often happens, the more comfortable you’ll get with it, you don’t worry about if you have a Satori experience, and it goes away, the more often that happens, the more you’ll float. Yeah, just stop worrying about it. So

Rick Archer: I think that’s a good point. I mean, I know many times in my life, I’ve strained and struggled and gotten myself very out of balance by being too fanatical, and too desperate, you know, so it’s good to be to have enthusiasm and zeal and earnest desire for this. But you got to keep it real and keep it natural.

Wayne Wirs: Yeah, try and bring it from here down into here, you know, try and try and bring it into the lived experience. Yeah. That’s my advice from for everybody I write to, you know, on my blog and stuff, but yeah,

Rick Archer: also, I think, I interviewed a saint from India, bout a month ago, and then Shrieker into my and she made a point about the importance of patience and tolerance. And I think those are really important qualities for a spiritual aspirant, you have to be patient. Because as you say, you’re not going to jump from here to here, it’s gonna take a while. So, you know, be earnest in your, in your endeavor, but at the same time, realize that every thing I’m sure there’s some beautiful poetic phrase, but everything happens in good time. You know, when it’s meant to happen, think about

Wayne Wirs: impatience is me, me, me, I want I want, you see that contraction, like and, and patience is like, I gotta breathe a little bit. I gotta relax. I can’t let go because otherwise you don’t do anything but you gotta relax that you got to learn that that kind of like flowing with God, so to speak, but still paddling, you know, yeah, you know, that’s, that’s the, that’s what I see. Patients is this impatience is me trying too hard. You know, her, I’m gonna get this, I’m gonna get this, you know, that’s that contraction, you know, and that’s how I live, I just felt contractions, you know, and that’s what she’s saying. Patience is opening, but not letting go. You know, that’s really what love is, you know? obsessive love is this meaning, you know, grabbing hold of you. Whereas pure love is more of a caress, it’s more of a gentle hand on on your lover, you know, and is that that’s that felt difference. And that’s where I like to live it I like to feel this experience rather than just rational. I’m a very rational person. I wish I didn’t have such a stupid big brain, you know, but it but it, I find that I can bring it down to heart, bring it into feeling it. And that’s where the growth comes.

Rick Archer: So, about five years ago, I interviewed a guy named Chuck hilling, who’s an old friend now and he did a beautiful analysis of Row row row your boat, you know, I mean, think about the lines of that song, row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream, you’re going with the stream, merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, the whole thing is a joy. Life is but a dream. You know, you’re not taking it too seriously. But but there is you are rowing you know, you’re not just sort of going wherever the stream takes you and you know, running into the, into the marshes. You’re guiding you get you’re giving it some direction, but the stream is doing the main job,

Wayne Wirs: right. It’s telling you go that way and you’re kind of figuring out how to get along there but you’re not fighting it either. You’re not you know, you’re not like saying I’m gonna go this way. Yeah. Good. That’s a great analogy.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Okay, great. So here you are in your van, in the mountains of Arizona. And once you do this, you know, once I put this interview up, a lot of people are gonna start reading your blog and getting in touch and this and that the BatGap Bump. And it may be that people want to gauge with you, or somehow you mentioned, you might start teaching at some point in a more personal or active way, once your new book comes out, or what’s going on?

Wayne Wirs: Well, the book is just outline. Unfortunately, right now, I hadn’t felt ready to officially write the book, I think that’s what part of the delay was, like, say should guide you and she’ll push you when you need it. What I just did recently, if people really want to talk I put up a I’m not selling this, I just felt I needed to give people an opportunity to have these sort of talks is I just put a thing on there. So where we can do one on one Skype or phone calls or something like that, just so if people really want to talk about this, I’m accessible. That’s what pretty much everybody who’s followed my blog has said to me, a lot of people say to me, is Wayne, you’re accessible, we can’t get a hold of these other people, you know, you know, when you respond to my emails I do I read all the emails, and if I can, I will. Such are the advantages of being an unknown. But yeah, I think what I’ll do my my game plan is then now to write this book. And after that, we’ll see what happens you know, whether I write another book, I’ve got a couple of books in mind, but I gotta get this one done. That’s the main thing is I gotta get this one done. Because reading the blog, it’s a diary. So it’s all over the place. So it’s hard to get this, actually, this interview will actually act as a very good introduction to what mystical oneness is. So thank you very much. I said, it all happened at a perfect time. As usual with my life, it all just lines up.

Rick Archer: And I would say that, you. I mean, I think you just, you know, your people deserve to be compensated for their time. If if 100 people now want to have Skype conversations with you. I don’t think it would be unreasonable for you to charge something for that, or do you already?

Wayne Wirs: Well, I haven’t I just put it up, I just started putting it up. I used to do something called wisdom for alms, you know, and I was just email people, and I take their email, and a lot of times they would I’d never get any money from it. It’s not that important, but it does take a lot of your time. It does these personalized things. So almost in a way to discourage, you know, kind of dumb questions or questions, they could look up themselves. You know, I know, it’s almost like you charge to help free up some of your time, but to also get the serious inquiries, you know, and that’s the way I look at it. So

Rick Archer: let’s say you do an hour Skype, Skype conversation with somebody, how much do you charge for that?

Wayne Wirs: I put up there. It’s I think it’s 75 is what I put up there. I didn’t want to take the Highlander. I didn’t want to take the low. And if there’s something in between, that’s pretty

Rick Archer: reasonable. Yeah, I mean, you have to buy gas, you have to buy food. And you can probably only do a couple of these a day, if you were to do that many. And that’s 150 bucks in a day isn’t that much money? So? Yeah, good. It’s good to put that out there and make it make people aware that that’s possible if they would like to have a conversation with you.

Wayne Wirs: Right. But my main priority is to get this book written, you know, I feel I have to get that because even though it’s all in a blog, and you know, this interview is a good summation of it. It really needs to be put in a format that people can sit down and read and not have to jump all over the place in the blog, because like I say, a blog is a diary. It’s not a book, you know, it used to develop things and you change your mind and all this sort of stuff. Half sure,

Rick Archer: though. Yeah. And so in terms of books, you have like three or four of them. You’ve already written the mystics journal, finding, fading toward Enlightenment, seeing clearly a simple explanation for everything. And I think these are all available for free on your website, aren’t they?

Wayne Wirs: Some of them are free. Some of them are, there’s a charge. I don’t think any of them are five bucks. They’re all ebooks. They’re very cheap. And I don’t, I don’t expect to make money on them. But I want to put them out there. But some of them I put a lot of time into it. So I balanced I tried to find a balance. Yeah.

Rick Archer: And I’ll link to all these books on the page that I set up for you on BatGap. So people can Great. Get them and I find them enjoyable to read. Plus, one thing we haven’t even mentioned is that you are quite an accomplished photographer. And so you know, both your blog and your books have a lot of beautiful photos in them.

Wayne Wirs: Thank you. Yeah, that’s a passion. I love that. You know, it’s one of those things you you know, if you love something, you’re gonna put a lot of effort into it. I love the spiritual search. I love I love what happens afterwards. You know, I love this communion with her. That’s why I’m such a mystic and I talked about it. And I love photography. And I like writing, you know, so yeah,

Rick Archer: it’s great. Oh, good. So let me wrap it up. This has been a lot of fun. I knew it would be when I started reading your stuff. I appreciate I love it. Yeah, me too. I really appreciate spending the time with people like you every week. It’s a big boost of fulfillment for me. So let me make some summary points. I’ve been speaking with Wayne Weir’s, and you know that by now if you’ve stayed with the interviewer this long and I’ll be linking to his website, his blog, his books and so on from his page on batgap.com. And when slife is a work in progress, so if you resonate with him, she can see how it can subscribe to his blog, and so on and see how it continues to evolve. This is an ongoing series, as I mentioned in the beginning, so if you go to batgap.com, you will see all the past episodes archived and about four or five different ways under the past interviews menu. There’s an audio podcast that you can sign up for which as I mentioned, we’re having some technical difficulties with but I’ll be darned if we’re not going to fix them. And there’s the donate button, which I appreciate people clicking if they feel so inclined and are appreciating getting something out of these interviews. There’s a place to sign up to be notified by email each time a new interview is posted. And that’ll be obvious to you on the menus. So that’s pretty much it. There’s a few other things if you pull down the various menus and see what’s there. So thanks for listening or watching. And thank you, Wayne.

Wayne Wirs: Thank you very much. Perfect timing for me. And, and I would like to one other thing, if any of this stuff benefited anyone that’s listening or watching this, rather than donate to me, donate to Rick and Buddha because there’s a lot of people working behind the scenes that you probably aren’t aware of. And there’s I’m sure a lot of expenses. So anything you give to me and this because of this, give it to give it to these guys. All right, thank you. Well, seriously.

Rick Archer: Thank you very much for that. But also, of course, if you end up taking up considerable amounts of Wayne’s time with Skype conversations, and I’ll donate it to him.

Wayne Wirs: Yeah, we Keep passing the money back and forth.

Rick Archer: Yeah we can just send checks to each other every day. All right. Thanks a lot. Talk to you later.