Tree Transcript

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Tree Interview

Rick Archer: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer, Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of interviews with spiritually Awakening people. There have been about 350 of them now. And if this is new to you, you can go to And you’ll find them all. All the previous ones organized, categorized in various ways under the past interviews menu. This show is made possible by the support of appreciative listeners and viewers. So if you feel like supporting it, there’s a Donate button on the site there. So thanks. My guest today is tree wise blood. That wasn’t her original name, and maybe we’ll get into why she how she ended up with that name. But she’s in Australia, out in the boondocks outside or the Outback, as they call it somewhere near Sydney. She’s 17 acres of land. She’s said she was watching wallabies and kangaroos jumping around this morning. And in fact, it is morning for her right now. It’s about eight o’clock in the morning, there five o’clock for me. I read her book, which hot flush and dark cave is the title of it. And it’s in essence about menopause as a spiritual phase of life, a spiritual opportunity. But there’s all kinds of very interesting things in it that happened to her during that phase. But first, before we get into any of that, I would like to read her bio. The spiritual journey does not consist in gaining what a person does not have, but in dissipation of ignorance concerning Himself and life. And the growth of understanding which begins with spiritual awakening, to find God is to come to to one’s own self. And that’s from Avatar Mayor Baba, who of whom three has been a devotee for many decades. And it’s kind of interesting, because after we scheduled her interview, someone emailed and said, Hey, how come you’ve never interviewed anybody who knows anything about Mara Baba? And I said, Well, it’s about fact we’ve got somebody scheduled. Going on with her bio. This is in her words, no longer the person with its conditioning and history here. Now there is only this and the overall feeling is, I don’t mind, no fear, no push, a great emptiness, that is also a rich and all pervading fullness. Here there is silence, peace and an exquisite sense of joy. Here it feels so light, there is no distance marinating in the self. It is as if nothing is happening and yet happening graciously unfolds. Yeah, here happen happening graciously unfolds. To look back at the dream, the necessary mistaken identity. And seems like so much happened. personhood was such psychological suffering, separation, feverish, fearful struggle, always restless, dissatisfied, looking outside for love and fulfillment. Now peace and love reside here. I spent 30 years with avatar Mayer, Baba in deep devotion. Baba has administered his kiss and his kick, expertly unraveling the ego identity, longing for the truth. And with nothing more to express in this life, I knew I was going to die. Not sure if it was the body or the ego. I completely surrendered. Shortly after whilst watching Mooji on the net, he pointed and I said with total conviction, I am that in that recognition, I hysterically and uncontrollably laughed for hours when I could hardly breathe from the laughter and I asked God to help me. The laughter only escalated. Thanks God. The funniest thing the divine joke was that I knew I had always been that I love Mayor Baba and Mooji The brightest reflections of the true self. I know it’s quiet here as I experienced the bliss and love of the self. So that’s trees bio, as you can tell, she’s a good writer. So welcome. Thanks for doing this. Hi, Rick. Yeah. And she is one of those people who you wouldn’t have heard of ordinarily, she’s not out there as a spiritual teacher, not you know, kind of like on the Satsang scene or anything like that she she happened to email Irene about something and Irene curiosity was piqued and, and they emailed back and forth a little bit, and I really suggested that, you know, maybe she would be a good person to interview because her experiences seem to be rather powerful. Round. And so one thing led to the next and here we are. So maybe we should start out at least by going a little bit chronologically that all seems to work. And then we’ll see where else we end up. So was nearby. But the first significant thing that we want to talk about, or are you one of these people who even as a little girl had, oh, yeah, there was something I read where you were just nine years old or something, and you went outside and you just cried out to God or something? Is this all there? is, you know, is that tell us tell us that story?

Tree: Yeah, I did that. I was living in like a brick house and with the television continually going, and I don’t know the electric lights happening in the family and something felt bizarre and not quite right. And am like, empty, but not a beautiful emptiness, just an empty. And so I did go out and cry and implore to the night sky to, to God. This is an IT. This is an it is a you know, and I received a really beautiful hug, like a divine hug. And I got told no, this, isn’t it. Just wait, just wait, you know. And so I continued on. Yeah. And you

Rick Archer: were just a little kid, right? Eight or nine years old at that time?

Tree: Yeah, I think I was about nine.

Rick Archer: Yeah.

Tree: Yeah.

Rick Archer: That kind of thing happens fairly often. I mean, you know, not every day, but I find it interesting there. I’ve heard a lot of stories where people sort of implore whatever, is there, whatever they’re speaking to, maybe they don’t know. And it answers they get some kind of response, you know?

Tree: Yeah. I, from my experience, if you employ with all your heart, you’ll you’ll be answered. Yeah.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Yeah, it’s interesting. thing. I mean, perhaps you would like to elaborate on the reasons for that. I could give you some, but you’re the person that’s being interviewed here. So how is it that the universe is so sentient that, you know, we can implore like that and get a response?

Tree: I think because we’re well, I don’t really know, but I could just waffle out what’s coming through you. I think because we’re put on this planet to realize who we are, you know, so each and every soul, God has the time and space for each and every song. Yeah. Like, to that finite being you, you know, your soul, your soul, just, I don’t know, you’d cry out from all your heart, but all your heart and you’ll be answered. That’s just my experience here.

Rick Archer: Yeah. And to some people even to say that, you know, there is a God who could respond is a leap of faith, you know, something they don’t believe in. But, you know, in reading your story, your your orientation is that, you know, the universe is very intelligent, very alive and very responsive to our, to our, to our needs, or we could say maybe more concerned with our growth might be a better way

Tree: of putting it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I feel like, everything’s here to administer to us to find who we are. Yeah.

Rick Archer: So So what happened between age nine and crazy teenage years, and

Tree: I’m okay, I, even before then I can remember going my parents weren’t at all religious. And so God for me, isn’t it you know, it can be a bit of a dirty word in some circles because of that people have had bad experience with religion. So we were my sister and brother and I was sent to church on a Sunday morning, not because my parents were religious, but because they wanted to sleep in. So so we would go along to church, and I was the youngest. And I went to Sunday school, and there were these beautiful hippies in Sunday school, a man and a woman and they were sort of deeply in love and deeply in love with Jesus. So this was my first experience. And I can remember seeing a beautiful light, you know, surrounding them as they sang to Jesus. So I really, I loved that. And then when we came to an age where you had to go to the church, you were older and you came up and we had to go into the church and I can remember really loving the the religious art and the windows, but the, the energy of the people it didn’t It didn’t work for me. Yeah. So I will never be boring. Yeah. And just it was the energy, like the energy that young people had. And the love was there. But in the church, it was not not. It didn’t feel good. So, so I went home and said, That’s it. I’m retiring from that. And my parents were fine, because they weren’t religious. And then I went from that to Yeah, to like, to the starry sky to nature to the mountains, the rivers, the trees, just nature. And I always felt presence like, as a kid, I felt a presence behind me often. And sometimes I felt that presence coming through me.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I’m just skimming my notes here. There’s so many. I mean, your whole book is so nature oriented. You’re always kind of you basically lived in a cabin or something for three years, and you’re always sitting out in the woods and under the sky and climbing mountains. And just really nature was like your religion in a way out there.

Tree: Yeah, yeah. Very much. So. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I, I sort of seen now I’m like, Avatar, Mayor, Baba, and Mooji. And nature, just just pure perfection, like, perfect reflections of the self. Yeah.

Rick Archer: I guess? Well, this is a bit of a theoretical question. But can a human being ever be as perfect reflection of the self as, you know, nature itself? I mean, we’re part of nature, but it almost seems like we’ve alienated ourselves from it, to some extent, to one degree or another. And an avatar, of course, is supposed to be an incarnation of God who didn’t come into this life in ignorance. But, but Mooji would readily admit to having done so and most spiritual, most spiritual teachers we know about so.

Tree: Well, I think at our at our core, well, Baba, yes. And all of us that our source, you know, yeah, yeah. Yes. But you know, our mistaken identity, not so much. Yeah.

Rick Archer: Yeah. I think that’s an important distinction, because a lot of people, you know, they, they say, Well, I, we’re all already enlightened. And, yeah, true, in ultimately, in our essence, but you have to plot but if you apply that to all 7 billion people in the world, then that’s not so obvious with some people. And so it’s it renders the whole term Enlightenment meaningless. And, you know, we we really should aspire to some more ideal reflection of that essence, you know, then is ordinarily the case and most people’s lives. Yeah, yeah. If I make a statement like that, you don’t necessarily have to agree with it, you can think so. Sometimes, you know, I’ll say things that aren’t questions. They’re just like statements. You know, feel free to discuss or disagree or whatever. So how did you find Mayor Baba? How did you run it?

Tree: So I always had this belief in universal source God, as I say, this presence behind me, and it’s sometimes coming through me and I’ve just gotten married would have been 33 years ago. And my husband was a dancer, and he was doing a dance shot. And he discovered me Ababa in Sydney, looking through a book of photos. And by the time he finished the book of photos, he was crying with recognition that this is not this is gone up here. And my husband was a big spiritual seeker. And he felt when he married me, it was a failure to his seeking.

Rick Archer: He thought he should be a monk or something. Yeah,

Tree: he was sort of drawn to that and then drawn to me and so he felt a lot of failure around that initially. And then he started to read about Baba and he said, Oh, I read this stuff about marriage and Amir Baba talks about marriage that yeah, in an ideal ideally, celibacy and that life is, you know, a way to go and that’s the ideal but if if you’re not at that state, it’s ridiculous. You’re banging your head against a wall to try and you know, be celibate. So marriage is the next best thing because you guys through, you know, Hallenbeck that’s been our experience. You know, you go through the hard times the good times. And it’s just, like, it’s really great thing for ripping apart the ego, you know, shred by shreds, really. And I think that’s me, Obama’s. The way he works,

Rick Archer: yeah, yeah, I spent about 15 years on the monastic program in the, in the TM movement, and I had the same sort of hang up your husband did then and, you know, there was a bit of an adjustment, getting married, but I would agree with what you just said is, it’s like, you know, having your own private guru in a way. You know, because, I mean, there’s a, you know, hanging out with the guys in the monastic setting, people could get very idiosyncratic, very carried away, very obsessive. And there were really no checks and balances that much, you know, and it didn’t have. So some people were having good experiences and all, but in many cases, there was a great lack of integration, and groundedness, and so on. And, you know, since then, you know, great many of the guys who I was with left that program and, you know, ended up getting married, some of them in their 60s, you know, because they finally realized, well, this is really not for you. Yeah,

Tree: I think it’s for some, you know, I think it’s the sum and, and what a wonderful thing, but for us, it was marriage, and we had a lot of work to do, you know, and a lot of reflecting of each other.

Rick Archer: There been a lot of great saints. I mean, it wasn’t Yogananda is master householder. Lahiri Mahasaya, or lost, or whatever his name was, and, and many others. I mean, if you look at the tradition of, of teachers in many traditions, I mean, some of them everyone is married, like the, the, the Jewish tradition, but even in the Vedic there are great many masters and the whole lineage that were married and had children and their, you know, passed on the lineage to their sons and so on.

Tree: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So the story then goes that it’s hard to remember this, the story then goes that he fell in love with Baba and sent me the teachings on marriage. And I went, Oh, yeah, this is true. This is, this is great. This is truth. And then he was overseas in London dancing, and he said, I’m going to go and visit my Baba. And I just got this really strong. I didn’t really even know who he was. I just got this strong push inside. I’m coming, you know? And so he tried. And he said, No, I’m going to fly somewhere. I don’t know where it was on the way home and then go to India. So it’s too hard to come back to Australia and then go and I said, Ah, okay, so I just sort of let it go. And he couldn’t get a visa to fly that way. So he had to come back to Australia. And it was almost like Baba wanted both of us. So within weeks, we were both in India at Barbas to

Rick Archer: Yeah, I mean, you speak Baba as if he had been alive. But of course, he wasn’t at that point. But but so you’re talking about going to his tomb? And if he’s not alive, why would it matter if you went through his tomb or just connected with him in Australia?

Tree: Okay, good question, in a way, like he is so alive, and he is everywhere. And so I can experience Him equally here, but it was just really strong longing to go to go to his place. Yeah, I really felt called to go. Yeah. Yeah.

Rick Archer: And I remember reading in your notes that you got your head stuck to his tomb or something like that. I wasn’t sure what you meant by that.

Tree: Okay, yeah, it was was quite bizarre. When I first went into barbers to I was sort of quite naive. I didn’t know anything about gurus. It had only been universal source and nature. A little bit of a warmth towards Jesus. But I just turned up and I walked in very naively and said, Hi, Baba. My name was Michelle. It’s Michelle. I’m here. I’m from Fitzroy. I’m here. And, and when I say when I heard when I said that. I just said, I just felt overwhelming love, you know, and I said, and I love you. And in the tomb, the feeling is it’s just so alive and so beautiful and divine. It’s a very special place and I came out of the tomb. I took Darshan came out of the tomb and like was gobsmacked. I couldn’t speak for days. Yeah, I just couldn’t physically speak and there are a lot of a lot of Americans into mer Baba. And they were sort of going around all you know, it was a bit like, oh, the little arty lady’s she must be mute, you know? Because I couldn’t get her a word.

Rick Archer: And then either did he for 30 something years, right?

Tree: Yeah, I think 44 But I’m no good at figures. You’d have to look that outbreak. But yeah, Bob had kept silence. And of course here am I talking today about its anniversary of BBs silence today. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

Rick Archer: so many people say some people say that, you know, there was one famous who was it? I forget who said it. But he said that gurus don’t kick ass. In other words, you know, if you don’t have a live teacher with whom you can interact, you can kind of get away with anything, you know, because who’s to? Who’s to say that what you’re whether what you’re doing is legitimate or not or useful, or whether you’re off the track or this or that. But in those notes that I just read, you know, he said there was both the kiss and the kick. Rather, he kept you on track even though he wasn’t on the body.

Tree: Oh, hell yeah. Yeah, just very alive. Very. Here. And yeah, orchestrating the whole show. And, yeah, just even in dialogue like you if you sit still long enough, or it’s not that I see it, but I walk in nature. I do sit in nature. And listen, you know, he’s alive and, and conveys messages and and talks not? Yeah, very clearly, very clearly. And arranges situations and yeah, yeah. So

Rick Archer: the how do you know that it’s Baba doing that not just sort of the divine intelligence, which is omnipresent. Anyway.

Tree: I’m sort of same, same, but a little bit more. personified, in that you feel his presence, and he smells like a rose. You feel him in you? Yeah. Yeah. It’s a bit hard to describe Rick, but yeah,

Rick Archer: well, it’s so unusual, really. I mean, there are millions of Christians and Muslims and so on who are devoted to Jesus and Mohammed and probably other examples, who, you know, could very much relate to what you’re saying in terms of their own chosen path of devotion.

Tree: Yeah, yeah. And so back in the in barbers tomb, we only stayed for two weeks. And it was a honeymoon. It was an absolute honeymoon with Barbra. And at one time, it was Women’s Day and his very close women disciples in those days, there weren’t many people in the 80s There weren’t many people there. So all his Mundelein was alive. His most beloved woman friend, Mara was alive and his sister and all the women Mundelein and men Mundelein were there and we Well, I came to Barbara’s tomb on women’s day and it was very beautiful being in the term with his beloved talking and and sending love towards Baba that was the most magnificent experience to see that absolute devotion. And I’m coming out from there this is getting to the headstock bit Rick I’m trying to keep on track I’m coming out of the tomb you know you pay your respects you bear down at the master speed so you put your head on the tomb and and send you love and I put my head down on the tomb and my head literally got stuck to the term it sounds bizarre but and I’m getting a bit panicky and put trying to pull up and there’s all people waiting so it was quite embarrassing you know there are waiting in line you know it’s obviously a woman’s hogging the tomb you know she won’t get up but I I tried and I tried I just could not lift my head and in the end I just you know, surrendered the oh it’s barbers to him he wants my head stuck here. I’ll just, I’ll just wait it out. And so I just waited and waited and and then try it again. And then you know, after about five minutes, I could get my head off the term and I came out and I did have a very strange sort of bee from sucking onto them tomb on my forehead. And, and then I walked out and one of the women Mundelein said, you take the flowers in to Barbara’s tomb. And I went, Oh, God, I don’t know if I want to go back in again, because you know, the protocol is to put your head down again. So I took the flowers in and took Darshan again, and the same thing happened again, just what twice in a row? I don’t know what that was about.

Rick Archer: But do you think you just went into such a deep state that you really just couldn’t get up?

Tree: No, because I was totally present and in my body and aware, I just I, I wasn’t really at a level of getting into any deep states. You weren’t a mobile. I just physically couldn’t lift my head off like it was suctioned on.

Rick Archer: Did you ever figure that out? Are you still to this seems like a mystery.

Tree: You know, barber talks about taking your Samskaras. You know, if you put your head at the mouth to speak, you know, they absorb your Samskaras. So maybe I just had a hell of a lot to absorb.

Rick Archer: I was just reading something about Ramana Maharshi. He’s talking about that very same thing about how he would really be taking on a lot of the Samskaras, or the Vasanas, or the karma of disciples and, and he said he had to flush it out every day by sitting in Samadhi for a certain period of time, otherwise it would accumulate. And, but after a certain period, he stopped doing that. And then he started aging more quickly and ended up getting cancer. And when he was suffering quite a bit with the cancer, somebody, one of His devotees said to him, why don’t you just take all of your suffering and a portion that among us, you know, will gladly take a share, and then you won’t be suffering? And he said, Where do you think I got it from in the first place? But I would suppose maybe that if one is no longer incarnate, perhaps there can be a, you know, a much greater absorption of karma without it taking a personal toll, because there’s no body to take a toll on maybe,

Tree: maybe if you look at the films of Baba taking dash and you know, you can see him as you know, 1000s of people pass. I don’t know if you’ve seen any films of Mayor Baba. But yeah, you can see him. And yeah, it feels like the body is really suffering. Yeah. I don’t know if what was, you know, I don’t know. But it appears that he’s taking the suffering here to

Rick Archer: be Yeah, yeah. All right. So you were with Baba, are you still I would say still are for you know, it’s been 30 something years of feeling that connection, that devotion and so on. And I guess for most of that time, it was pretty exclusive. Right? Yeah. But, you know, then more recently branched out a little bit, so to speak.

Tree: Yeah, yeah. I have branched out a friend of mine, Amanda came and she had some beautiful DVDs of Moochie. And we sat and watched together and she’d been to Rishikesh to see Mooji many times. And she said, I think you’re like this beautiful being and we sat and watched and yeah, like, same, same thing. Like just total recognition. You know, just total recognition at the selfie in Mirchi. Like, what a, what a beautiful being, and so prolific and generous and powerful. Yeah.

Rick Archer: Yeah. And then we’re not I mean, we still have plenty of stuff to talk about, but just to get to the punch line. So you are you’re watching Mooji one day, and, you know, well, I read that in your bio. Also, there was just some major awakening that took place.

Tree: Yeah, before I just a little bit before I went on tour with my husband who drives trucks. Now, we will go I was gonna go join him on tour. And I’ve never done this before. But before I was going to go, I was walking up and down in a house. And I just felt like, Ah, it’s over. It’s finished. I don’t have I didn’t have anything else more I wanted to express or do that was like, but it’s in life. There’s nothing left to do. Like, there’s nothing left and I thought, Oh, God, maybe I’m dying. I got a real sense of I think I’m gonna die, you know. And so my sister and I are really close. So I rang my sister and I said hey, I think I’m gonna die you know and and she’s like, Oh Don’t you dare because we My brother has died and she’s like don’t we always say Don’t you dare because I’ll be left you know and I said something’s dying I don’t know if it’s the ego on me but it’s over and I hung up from that phone call and I just got this incredibly desperate longing ah, can’t do it anymore Bob I like so over so over the person just I don’t want to do it anymore. Like this is in sobs and throwing myself on the floor a bit of a tanti. Baba, you do it, you do it. And and so from there, I packed my bags and went on tour and I had lots of time and my husband has got a little laptop. And so I was just devouring Mooji when he was out doing his work, and on and, you know, moody, such a beautiful warm, giving, being and, and so knowledgeable and so easy to understand. Like I with father’s writings in the past, I didn’t understand them. I couldn’t understand them. I only ever, like naively devoted and loved Barber. But when military spoke and pointed, I found it easier to understand. And one day, one night, my husband and I were both watching one. And he’s not intermediated by the way, but he was sitting watching with me luckily, and Mooji pointed and and I understood I understood that, that I was there. And um and just started to laugh and laughed hysterically but ours. And the joke was that I had I knew that I’d always been that. Yeah.

Rick Archer: When you talk about that now, and it stirs up so much emotion in you. Why do you feel that it does?

Tree: It’s, it’s just that the self seems to bubble continuously with this. Blissful bliss. There’s just bliss that bubbles and bubbles and bubbles out.

Rick Archer: Yeah. All the time.

Tree: It’s there all the time. Sometimes it’s underlying, and I’m active and doing things. But bottom line is there’s that bliss. And sometimes like it is joy, but it’s also sort of excruciating. Like it’s almost like an excluded, excruciating sort of, it’s not painful, but this is just his heart. And beliefs. Yeah, yeah, that comes out. So sometimes it sort of gets you look sad. And you get a bit teary, but you’re not actually saying

Rick Archer: no, it’s a moving experience. Some traditions say that once self realization has happened, then the development of the heart can proceed much more significantly than it ever could before. And the analogy used is that, you know, if a small pond tries to rise up in big waves, it just can’t do it, or it stirs the mud up at the bottom in the attempt to do it. Whereas an ocean can rise up in great big waves without stirring up the mud. So you know, that the idea is that once the self has been realized, then it provides a platform sort of, for the heart to really start to blossom much more than it ever has. And appreciation can grow more and more and more profoundly because the appreciator has been known you know, I mean, if you don’t know who you are, how can you really properly evaluate or appreciate anything else but once you know who you are, then you can really start to appreciate creation. So you feel like something like that might be in process with you.

Tree: Definitely everything is some, like even washing the dishes is a joy like as person that you know, I remember I would matter and I’m washing the dishes and it was a whole story and you know what spots Over the dishes in psychological sagas and drama, and you know, just now, it’s just washing the dishes, you know, the bubbles in the water look beautiful. And the cups shining. And

Rick Archer: yeah, yeah. That’s a nice little illustration of the point. Yeah, no. And you feel like, it’s something that actually continues to become more and more profound as time goes on. Like, the bubbles are even more beautiful this year than they were last year.

Tree: Well, this is all like, only a year ago, this happens. So I feel like I’m just integrating now and becoming functional, actually. So the last year everything’s has been just really like a visual visually, it was too much. And I was reading in barber now I can read barber and understanding, which is great, because I never could before I was reading in barber the other days is when you see the self, it’s such a shock. Like, it’s, it’s so such a big shock that you can think it’s over. Like, the whole thing is over. You know, but it’s not. But it is a big, it’s still a big an enormous shift in consciousness. And I must admit, I was, I’ve been out to it, like, pretty well, totally for eight months, you know, just adjusting to particularly the vision. Like the vision of everything is so clear. Visually clear, that it’s it’s sort of that gobsmacking thing where you, I don’t know if that’s an Australian saying but British also, is that okay, yeah. blown out of the water really, and. And it’s sort of so empty here, that you’re sort of everything, you’re everywhere. So I realized the other few things like the other day, my husband said, Oh, look at the mountain, you know, like, separately looking at the mountain, and I got where he was coming from, but I couldn’t look at the mountain. Do you know what I’m saying? Yeah. Yeah. You know, there wasn’t there’s no distance between me and the mountain. Yeah, that describes? Yeah, yeah. Um,

Rick Archer: the thing about the clarity to you know, that same from the Bible about seeing through a glass darkly, and then eventually, it’s going to be clear, it’s, it says, if we have kind of dark, foggy glasses on or something, and then the glasses somehow become clearer and Oh, everything is so you know, we’re no longer shrouded by that. That sort of distortion and dullness that characterizes most people’s experience to some extent, usually, even without their even knowing it, because they don’t know what’s possible.

Tree: Yeah, yeah. I didn’t realize life could be like this. Yeah. Yeah. Another funny word for me was when I saw I was like, staring at a McDonald’s sign, you know, the McDonald’s thing golden or whatever they are. And, you know, just looking at it. And just enjoying it. And you know, person would never have enjoyed a McDonald’s sign, there would be a whole political story around it. And you know, how judgment happening and yeah, I just find my head spins around and just there’s no judgment. Yeah.

Rick Archer: Yeah. I have a friend who said that after her awakening, she used to just sometimes sit and stare at a rock or something, you know, and it’s just like an utter fascination.

Tree: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was at a cafe with my daughter, in a in the big in Sydney, in a city in the city. And I was just, you just get drawn into the detail and the beauty and the texture. And a woman had this beautiful, wavy hair, and I was just staring. And my daughter said, Mum, you’re in the city. You can’t just sit there staring. It’s not right. Okay. But yeah. So getting used to that visual has taken a long time to integrate, I think yeah,

Rick Archer: yeah. Yeah. I think it’s an ongoing process. And you know, there’s a story. marshy, Mahesh Yogi used to tell this story. He was my teacher for many years. But he said that, you know, he talked about this principle that we’re discussing where once the self has realized, then the ability to really appreciate the objects of perception dawns for significantly for the first time and continues to grow. And as it continues to grow, it’s like the appreciation becomes more profound and more profound. And he said any any said it was like, it’s like, if there was an artist, and he was painting these paintings, and he heard that there was some guy in some town, some person who really appreciated his art where very few people did, but this person he kept, he keeps hearing this guy really gets me he really understands, really appreciates my art. Eventually, the artists would want to go meet that person, and you know, the hit that he would come to the person to introduce himself. So Mars used that example to say that once the appreciation of God’s creation reaches a profound enough degree, God himself will reveal Himself to us. Because he has found in us someone who’s capable of really appreciating his his creation. So I read your book. What was it? Remember the title? Was the title? It was dark cave? Thank you.

Tree:  Yes.

Rick Archer: Well, actually, there’s one more thing before we get into your book, which is kind of along the same lines as what we were talking about. It was kind of amusing. You said, You were watching one of my recent interviews, and towards the end, I said, Oh, and I’m going to be interviewing this woman in Australia. And you said, you felt like kind of a shock. Because, you know, your identity is more vast than that now. And all of a sudden, I kind of narrowed you down to a woman in Australia, you know, we’re ordinarily you’re kind of more of a more universal existence.

Tree: Yeah, I did feel a jolt in the body. It was like, oh, oh, oh, he thinks I’m a woman. Yeah.

Rick Archer: And I’m in Australia. Yeah. I hope people get the significance of that. Because it is it is significant. You know, I mean, we’re so much more than our physical appearance. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And even our location or anything else? I mean, how can how can the ocean be squeezed into a drop? Yeah. Okay, got that out of the way. So. So let’s talk about this book. It was it was quite a ride. And, and it might, I mean, if we really got into you, and I talked yesterday, because I called up and I was reading the book, and I was thinking, you know, how are we going to handle this, because there’s so much amazing far out stuff in the book. And it’s, you know, many people are gonna just disconnect if we start really getting into all the details, because unless you, you really kind of tune in and appreciate your sincerity and so on. It may seem that you’ve just kind of crazy her work kind of crazy when you wrote the book. But I don’t think you’re crazy. You know, and I think that you, you know, you were kind of going through a phase, maybe maybe that phase is over, but you were going through a phase where you were just really tuned in to, we could call it the spirit world or the subtle realms or something. And it was part of your rite of passage or something that you know, accompanied menopause. So, let’s kind of proceed sensitively, and let’s talk about some of the things that you talked about. And maybe we can put this in, in a way that will help people relate to it and derive benefit from the discussion. What do you think?

Tree: Yeah, yeah.

Rick Archer: Yeah. So I’ll help you by reading a few notes that I jotted down that I took from your book as I was reading it and, you know, you can add other things and respond to the notes that I read. But here’s something you receive this message I don’t remember from where but you can tell us but is because you are vibrating at the same frequency. You are a conduit for cosmic energy to Earth, something in regard to helping shift the Earth’s energy results to a balancing of male female energy, you will receive spiritual gifts, releasing them in each other. So it was like you’re going through this whole process where you are being sort of shepherded along or worked with, worked on by these various entities, which we can refer to as we go along. But they were like, putting you through this initiation. periods so to speak, you know, preparing you put really putting you through the wringer in a way, and helping you purify in various ways, and so on all with kind of all with the sense that you have a role to play. And now you have to go through this kind of purgatory in order to be capable of fulfilling that role. Which is a fair assessment of,

Tree: um, I don’t know about the Purgatory bit, but it was a very rough ride, like, I did feel like the menopause at the time was a portal for me to go in and down and dive down. Actually, there was that deep feeling. And yet at the same time, it started off as just a restorative, it was sort of like a quick, you know, how the householder, it’s over my kids had left. It was a period in time that I could just have a look. Just have a deep look. And it ended up being three years, you know,

Rick Archer: you went off and lived in some cabin or something.

Tree: Yeah, I, we’ve owned this property for many years, who sort of bought the kids up in a tin shed here and on the property. And we’ve since built a house woman, the family has grown up and left home, but I got an intuition to go, I wanted time to myself. And we were living in Melbourne, and kids went to uni. And my husband had a job. And I just thought I’m going to the attention, but I’m just Yeah, I call them my cave. But it was attention. Yeah. Okay. Um, and yeah, I received in the stillness and the quiet because it was very quiet. You know, no television, no internet at the time. Just lots of listening, lots of listening. And then, and then yeah, there was saying into subtle realms and, and a refer, I feel like a refining process and a clearing out and the healing of the person. Yeah.

Rick Archer: Yeah. And it seems like you’re going through a lot of past life stuff. And in this process of refining and healing, and a lot of old Native American things you went through. And, you know, stuff about, I mean, here’s two men a torture and a victim, but as a perpetrator, who needs the light to help lift them out of their state, you know, you were kind of just seems to be working out. Some horrendous stuff. I mean, there was one scene where you are apparently part of a Native American tribe, and you had gone down to the river with your horse. And while you’re down there, soldiers came through and massacred the whole tribe, but you escaped the massacre, because you happen to have gone down to the river and you’re feeling kind of great remorse about that, and guilt for having been away from having escaped the fate of everyone else. So I mean, they’re also specific instances, but perhaps we can talk about me some people don’t even believe in past lives. And, you know, they, they bring that up in interviews, or they bring it up in response to interviews, you know, commenters and because they just sort of jumped to the conclusion that if there’s no person ultimately, if we’re not ultimately a person, then you know, how could there be like reincarnation, because that implies there must be a person in order to reincarnate. So it’s kind of a it’s kind of a conundrum or a paradox. So maybe to frame this into a question, maybe you could comment on you know, that whole principle of past experiences and the necessity to work them out, you know, resolve them purge them and and if there is no self ultimately, how is it that we have apparently played all these roles in successive births?

Tree: Okay, I suppose there’s a person until there’s not you know, and there’s a soul’s evolution. This is only my this is money, my experience. I have experienced I am aware, or have been as a kid aware of quite a few past lives. And when I went into the cave, I thought I just had to work through this person’s life, you know, and get a few wounds out and clear it up and clean it up. happen and just sort of move forward, you know, on the spiritual path. But it happened that this the soul was carrying built from a past life and this past life being did keep surfacing in me and I could feel it and I would strap and walk. And I, I was male, American Indian in one past life. And as a kid, I always had this reoccurring dream that you mentioned, of, you know, coming out early morning, flipping up the teepee flap, riding a horse to the river and and I’d washed my face in the river. It was just a really strong, reoccurring dream. And the dream would always stop there. And I didn’t really think much about it. But when I was doing the menopausal three years, this, this warrior would appear with it within this being and I felt like him. And he had a bone chestplate. And he was a really strong, young, beautiful warrior. I don’t know, I don’t know what you make of that. But that’s, that was my experience. And yeah, I thought I just have to clear this. But I also had to clear the guilt that he was carrying a big guilt. Yeah. And I did really experience a scene of that, and a whole load of people gathered in that yeah, I was relieved with my guilt and great love was given. So you know, there’s, it’s like, now there is this? And that doesn’t exist. But it did. You know, it did exist. Yeah.

Rick Archer: And I would say that there is this because you work through that. I mean, you know, that you went through a lot of things we’ll talk about more of them. Were various, you know, deep, deep impressions were removed, in the form of daggers, actually, which we can talk about, but they were removed. And with each removal, there was a new degree of freedom, a new sort of, you know, lighter burden, so to speak. And I would regard all that as very significant to the liberation that you eventually experienced with with Mooji. Yeah, I mean, some people think that little kids come in as tabula rasa, as you know, they’re enlightened, they don’t have any baggage, whatever, they’re totally innocent, and then they get corrupted as time goes on. But according to the whole reincarnation way of thinking, we come in with a planet bag, which is, which is why we come in, we both bring a bucket. And we bring a bucket of it with us, you know, from God knows where and when, and, you know, has to be worked through. You know, and it’s not enough to say, intellectually, I’m already enlightened, you know, because it’s like reading sugar on a piece of paper and expecting it to be sweet. You know, it’s not the actual thing. It’s not, it’s not the actual experience.

Tree: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. That is, I feel felt here. Yeah. I am this fella here.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Yeah. In other words, it’s a living experience.

Tree: Yeah. Yeah. Because I wasn’t an intellectual person. So I, you know, if you needed to be intellectual to get out?

Rick Archer: And do you find now in talking to various people, like your husband, or kids or friends or anybody else? Do you feel like it’s efficient to say to them, Hey, there’s only this you’re It’s only that you’re, you’re you are that and so on? Or do you feel like that would not really be a tremendously useful instruction for most people. That’s, there’s some some kind of, I don’t mean to be, you know, just sort of mean, some people accuse me of just promoting my particular little agenda, but this is just my understanding of things. And if I’m open to changing it, but I, I kind of see some people speaking this way. And I just wonder how helpful it is. And, you know, I think we really want to be helpful. I want to somehow make this whole thing useful for people’s evolution, not not just sort of an intellectual exercise.

Tree: I think probably, when Mooji says that he carries a whole

Rick Archer: there’s an energy with it or something.

Tree: Yes. Thank you. Yeah. You read my hands. There’s an energy for the end with Baba. And there’s work that they’re putting through. And I think if you know, people are at that point to hear that, then that’s great. I wouldn’t go down so well with my kids, you know, and yeah, they’re aware of all this stuff. And they’re more aware than they probably lead on, they often say funny things like, Oh, my person’s really pissed off about this today. So, yeah, they’re getting awareness, but I don’t feel it’s my role to teach anyone, anything. And yeah, I don’t know,

Rick Archer: there’s something significant what you just said, which is that there, there are two components there, you know, there’s the the teacher who is transmitting or some sort of energy. And then there’s the student or the recipient. And, you know, both have to be sort of in the right condition. I mean, any old character can’t just sort of come you know, get in front of an audience and say your that it’s not necessarily going to have the the desired potency. And the recipients, you know, as Christ talked about throwing pearls before swine and all there, there are going to be different degrees of receptivity and ability to actually receive anything from even the most enlightened being that ever existed. His efforts may fall on deaf ears if you just took a random crowd. Yeah, yeah. So such people have often been persecuted and killed by random crowds. Appreciate what? Yeah,

Tree: definitely. Um, I think you could possibly just, like without words to stare into men or Barbara’s photo, or stare into Mooji on the net. And, and I think it could almost be that simple. Yeah, yeah. Although the teachings are also useful, but just when you can see in the creatures or in the eyes of someone if they’re silent, you can just, you can just feel and say the cell. Yeah,

Rick Archer: yeah. And that’s how some teachers give Darshan, just to through a look. Yeah, Ramona. Yeah, well, did that a lot.

Tree: Okay, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I had a few months ago, a vision. I’m sort of into the mountains and I’ve had a house cow and milk. So I’m sort of got a bit of a connection there. Just a small connection. But I had a vision of Ramona the other evening of months ago. times not great. And he walked past me with with a cough and yeah, he just looked into my eyes and yeah, the look, it’s the ice. Yeah.

Rick Archer: Do you know much about Ramana?

Tree: Not a great deal. No.

Rick Archer: Did you know that one of his primary devotees was a cow?

Tree: I did watch something recently and yeah, and I thought ah,

Rick Archer: Lakshmi, Lakshmi the cow. Yeah, yeah.

Tree: Yeah. And I’m always looking at the mountains around here and just you know, go to the mountain so yeah, there’s a little connection there. Yeah, his eyes were just so burning and beautiful. Just define

Rick Archer: tell us more about this whole phase of your life living in the in the shed in the cave you know, tell it tell us some of the more significant things you went through and you know what you’ve why you feel they’re significant.

Tree: Okay, um, there was a lot of input from spirit world and for me, that was significant because I really feel like spirit world does try to help us like it’s almost their job to help us on the path.

Rick Archer: What is spirit world exactly. In this way? You’re using the phrase,

Tree: okay. I had in particular Two Spirit Guides come to me and guide me give me guidance. I mean, the whole

Rick Archer: one was a buffalo man and others an Eagle Man or something?

Tree: Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah. And the buffalo man sort of taught me his craft which was, which was hands on healing and the eagle spirit Man was just there, he was just full of light and guidance. You know, I sort of I was a bit nervy and said to Bob, well, what you know, is this okay? Is this okay? And he’s like, they work for me. You know, they work for me.

Rick Archer: They said that.

Tree: Yeah, yeah, that’s what I call in

Rick Archer: other words, they were his henchmen so to speak. They were his

Tree: Yeah, like

Rick Archer: his assistance.

Tree: Yeah, the spiritual realm does it. Yeah. works for him. So I felt that it was all okay. And I feel like other beings just sort of helped in the purification and the lightening of the vibrations of the, the vessel, really?

Rick Archer: And how did they help? What did they do to you or with you, or whatever, to help?

Tree: I had a lot of healings done on me. A lot of visions and a lot of healings where these beings from other spheres like not from the gross plane came and helped and did little healings on me. So it was very real, it was as real as real. Realize this gross plane is real. This This saulsville was very real.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Do you still perceive it? Or did that go away with the Self Realization,

Tree: um, with the bubbling of the self, I am self sufficient, you know, like, I actually did stop before the awakening with Mooji, I did get the intuition to stop. It is very alluring. There are many adventures on the subtle spheres. It was a part of my journey. But I got a guidance to stop. So I did stop. And pretty soon after that, I had the awakening with Mooji. So I wouldn’t sort of suggest run around looking for spiritual beings or other planes, but I felt it was in a very strong instrument and work on me. Yeah.

Rick Archer: Well, you’ve been looking for yourself. How do you I mean, it just,

Tree: I hadn’t been looking at what was happening. It was just happening. Yeah, it just happened. And it it was very wonderful and very helpful. And it also helped to, like fly out, like, lift apart. This density, the gross identification, because the world was so much more. Yeah. Okay. So it sort of

Rick Archer: in other words, the world was so much more than you were perceiving it to be do due to the sort of the binding influence of the of the identification

Tree: to Yeah, okay. So I sort of feel like it was also just an instrument in lifting, enlightening the identification a bit. Yeah. Yeah.

Rick Archer: When you are in the phase where you’re perceiving these guides, did you perceive everyone’s guys or just your own?

Tree: I perceived my own only might what I actually spent a lot of time in solitude here. So I didn’t see a lot of people. I did go singing chanting to the red temple in my local town every every Saturday, but not a lot of mixing with people at the time. Yeah.

Rick Archer: So it was you saw guides around everyone you encountered it was more like just know, something you yourself were dealing with.

Tree: When I’d come into the stillness of the cave or into into nature, I would, I would sense it then. But I was also working in making coffee in a cafe. And at times like that, sometimes, people would come through that had passed and want to pass a message on, but I knew I didn’t see other people’s guides.

Rick Archer: I see. Yeah. Yeah. Was that a significant thing at all, you know, people wanting to pass messages through you to some loved one, or was that just sort of a little side thing that happened?

Tree: Just something that comes in it’s it that still happens occasionally? And if I feel okay about it, I’ll pass it on. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Rick Archer: Call careers have that.

Tree: Yeah, yeah. It sort of doesn’t interest me to chase this up. But if it’s helpful, then I just pass that on. Yeah.

Rick Archer:  Yeah. Okay. Let’s see here. There’s a nice little phrase I liked something I lifted from your book. The wind can either blow on and through you with E either you can brace yourself against it and fight it. Life is also like that. Let me flow through you. Surrender. Who said that? God something that came to you?

Tree: Yeah, there’s a lot of why I wrote that writing is because I’d come in and tell my husband sometimes when he was visiting something that I’d heard and he say you should get this stuff down. Some of this stuff is really good. And the stuff that is good is the dictation basically.

Rick Archer: things just come to you like that. Yeah. Did you kind of were you sort of fighting it for a while. blowing against the wind, so to speak.

Tree: As a person always, yeah. Always fighting everything. Yeah.

Rick Archer: And then you just surrendered by degrees?

Tree: degrees. Yeah. Yeah.

Rick Archer: I think that’s what happens with most of us. It’s like, you know, we don’t even realize the extent to which we’re trying to hold the reins and you know, but then through six successive degrees of release, we we surrender more and more and allow something larger to hold them. Yeah. Yeah. There’s a setting in the Vedas, someplace, Brahman is the charioteer. Brahman would mean the wholeness the totality God, and you know, that’s really holding the reins of the chariot of our life. But or, ordinarily, pre Enlightenment, at least, you know, we think we’re holding them. Yeah. So you had experiences, even if sort of historical and mythical figures during this whole thing, even St. You kind of had some kind of cognition from St. Francis. So I’m just reading little snippets here from your book. Let’s get a skip ahead to this thing of dagger removals. That was kind of interesting. And again, feel free if there’s anything that comes into your mind that I’m not asking about, go ahead and talk about I’m just picking and choosing here. So talking about dagger removals, I won’t begin to describe it, but because you can do it better.

Tree: Okay, well, it seems like a long time ago, and I see. I remember being in the cave at night and being told to like go in and down and just find find the find the wounds find the wounds that the person is carrying. And with the with the wounding, you know, the noise, the stories, the entrapment, I feel was really tight like that, you know, so these guides came and started to perform these fantastic ceremonies of smoking and pulling out wounds. So identifying the wound, and beings from the subtle realm would come and perform the removals.

Rick Archer: So if someone had been in the room with you and had been watching you, they would have just seen you lying on the bed. Nothing unusual going on, but but with, with the subtle perception. There were beings and they were actually using some kind of, you know, smoke or sage or something and, and performing or kind of a subtle surgery on you in a way.

Tree: Yeah, yeah, it was subtle surgery. Yeah. My husband was in bed once, you know, beside me to sleep, and a

Rick Archer: whole thing was going on. enactments

Tree: going on. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, it was very real. Yeah.

Rick Archer: So just for the sake of interest, and I think it might be instructive to talk about some of the different daggers that were removed and what they signified.

Tree: Okay, I can’t even remember it. Can you prompt me? Isn’t it terrible? Oh,

Rick Archer: well, I didn’t write it all down. But as I recall, there were about at least four of them. And they were they were kind of stuck in various parts of your body. And each one represented a particular trauma that had been held for you know, who knows how long and and that and the, you know, withdrawing those daggers was in itself a little bit of a delicate operation and when they withdrew, there was actually some subtle bleeding or, or emission of some kind of substance from your body and, and so on.

Tree: like remembering now? Yeah, good. Yeah, I’m okay. I can remember one. And, you know, just quite pathetic little traumas, some of them. But you know, trauma is anytime there’s systems overwhelmed. That’s the definition of trauma so I can remember my brother dying. And at the time it felt totally, you know, it’s my sound bizarre but totally right, he died, he left the body was a very violent dance, he died in a car accident. I’m going off the track now. And so that was stored as a trauma in my, in my being and I was attended by a whole load of beings. And to tell you the truth, Rick now I can’t even remember, like, I’d have to, you’d have to read the story to to recreate the scene for me. But you know, each each wound was was sort of pulled out there was in the, in this stage, it was in the form of a dagger and it was pulled out. And just a great release and a lightness of being after every, every little wounding and trauma was removed. So yeah, in the life of the person, sort of, I felt it was great work, because it stripping all layers, you know, wounds stories that you carry, you know, yeah. And make this life sort of heavy and bound.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I mean, you said an interesting thing there, which was that, that, you know, there were certain experiences, which were overshadowing I don’t think use that word, but that they left deep impressions. And that’s, that’s what Vasanas czar, that’s what these, you know, these are their impressions caused by any experience, which kind of overloads the, the sensory apparatus or overloads, our emotional apparatus, or whatever, but it sort of leaves an imprint. And those imprints can be very sticky. And there, we don’t know how many of them there actually may be, but there could be piles and piles of them all sort of stuck, stuck, and keeping our identity bound and constricted. And they have to be removed, and I think you’re a much more visual person than most people are. So you know, where with you, you’d be perceiving, you know, guides and daggers getting removed and all that stuff. The average person wouldn’t necessarily experience all that stuff, but they might experience other symptoms. You know, like physical pains or physical movements, or, you know, some some sort of manifestation as the deep impression starts to get itself worked out.

Tree: Yeah, definitely. Yeah.

Rick Archer: I actually had one thing that was reminiscent of your kind of experience, I was just sort of happened during my sleep. But I was ushered into this room and asked to lie down on a pallet on my stomach and hold on to some handles and some sort of being came and worked me over with like something like a trident or something up and down my spine. And it was absolutely excruciating. But I kind of realized that something really good was happening, and I held on for dear life. And then, you know, making a long story short, I kind of rose up out of it into waking state out of this really deep thing. With this, this feeling of vast relief and release and feeling like I’m bound by steel bands or something that had finally been broken is a huge thing. So fantastic. I know. She says, I hear you talking a lot. I am talking about that you’re not a blabber mouth. So I have to kind of priming the pump here. But I don’t know why I tell the story. I think I’ve told it once or twice before on the show. But it gives an indication that maybe things like that are happening to people that they don’t know, they wouldn’t ordinarily know about. And they just experienced some super surface symptoms, but there’s some kind of deeper mechanics going on.

Tree: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. So lots of clearing, lots of clearing and with clearing then the stories leave and the more stories are left, the more you can just be here.

Rick Archer: Yeah, there was this thing where you had like a splitting headache. Really bad. And then finally, the headache bursts through the crown of your head. And you got this message saying your body is the building. And now on top you have a vessel.

Tree: Yeah, I did have some very painful, dramatic sort of openings, then they were sort of like on a metaphysical level. But at the same time, they were physical and a lot were very painful. And one was an incredible headache. Incredible headache, where I thought, Oh, should I bring the ambulance and I thought, I’m not I can’t I mean, too much pain, I can’t, I think I think I’m just gonna die. So I sort of ran out to the front of the cave, and sort of threw myself down in the dirt and was just rolling and holding my head screaming, to God, you know, and, and God just said, Let go, let go. And I just felt like this past, incredible pain burst through the top of my head. And it was like a birth of some sort. So there was lots of those sort of faculty openings, and a lot of them were quite painful. Yeah,

Rick Archer: that’s what I meant when I use the word purgatory before. I mean, Purgatory is, it’s not like an eternal hell. It’s a place where people supposedly go and kind of, you know, get all their sort of sins wrapped wrung out of them. And then they can go to heaven afterwards, according to the mythology, but maybe that was it. Yeah. Just a period. But yeah, it wasn’t necessarily better roses. I mean, there was just all this really intense stuff. That

Tree: It was intense. Yeah, it was really intense. And it was fantastic. And intense, and painful, and was quite bizarre, quite bizarre. And it did end in the third year in absolute illness in the bed finished. Yeah,

Rick Archer: Yeah lets talk about that a little bit.

Tree: Yeah, um, yeah, I actually got chronic fatigue in the end. And it was almost like maybe this was all too much all these opening of faculties. And I ended up with chronic fatigue and severe pain in this space, incredible pain in my face, that just wouldn’t go away. And I spent months and months just laying in bed, laying in bed, and I sort of had this vision of my body all chopped up and dismembered in a rubbish bin at the end of the bed, and it sat like that for months. And I just got guided, just surrender, surrender. So it was almost like this experience was like some sort of prototype of experience. For the, for the next awakening, sort of, because they did come up out of all that rebuilt. Still as person, less person. But still still person was there until the Mooji thing. Yeah.

Rick Archer: But I, you know, it’s there are precedents for this. I mean, I believe St. Francis went, you know, nearly died and was extremely sick. And when he came out of it, St. Francis, is a big transformation. There are a lot of other stories like that to where people just really go through the wringer. And so we keep coming back to this point. But I think it’s it’s significant. And I don’t think everybody takes it on as intensely and as quickly as you did. It may not have seemed quick to you. But you know, some people can spend decades just working through this stuff more slowly, and it never reaches sort of a critical point. But others it can be very intense. And again, this, you know, reading about Ramana recently, he said that he could could enlightened people if he wanted to just like that, but it would kill most people. You know, so there are very few people that he would offense. In a few instances he actually sort of enlightened people as they were dying because they were dying anyway. So if he killed him, it wouldn’t matter. But but the transformation can be so radical for the body, that it can be more than you can handle. And so it has to be kind of parceled out sometimes in smaller increments.

Tree: Okay. Yeah, yeah, I could see that. Yeah.

Rick Archer: Yeah. So what is this thing you’re doing now? I linking to it from from the BatGap website some transformational relief. Okay, something.

Tree: Yeah, it’s called TRA. And it’s trauma intention release. And yeah, a man called David pacella, an American man who works in the field of trauma recovery, he devised this technique. And it’s basically tapping into our body’s innate release mechanism, which is tremoring. And we all have this mechanism in us as mammals tremor and move shape. It’s it’s a shaking. Yeah. You’ve probably seen regular dog shaking in a thunderstorm.

Rick Archer: Sure. Yeah, they get scared.

Tree: Yeah. Yeah, well, we see that we’ve sort of interpreted that merely as fear. But in fact, David Purcell is realized that it’s the release of fear. So it’s released that the charge that’s been built up, and the muscles contraction that we go into when we’re when we’re in fear. So it’s like shaking out all that muscle contraction and balancing the nervous system. So yeah, I, the, after my great illness and coming out of illness and being rebuilt. I didn’t have chronic fatigue anymore, but I still had incredible pain in my face. And I had an I thought it was maybe my teeth, so I just kept getting teeth pulled out and my dentist like, they’re all fine, they’re fine. The teeth are fine. I’m like, No, I’m in such pain. I don’t care. I want the teeth teeth pulled out. So I did get a whole load of teeth pulled out and I still had pain. So. So my sister introduced me to tre and because I’d been doing shamanic work, and often on the table. people’s bodies will shake in a certain area, and release. And I just intuitively felt that’s a release when the body’s releasing. So when she mentioned this shaking, and tra, I thought, yeah, great. I’ll have to look into it. And so I went along to a three day workshop and I came out and my whole face contraction on one wound. So the pain just

Rick Archer: gone. Gone with it. Yeah. And you wish you hadn’t had those people now? Yeah.

Tree: Yeah, I’ve got false ones now in there. So I can chew and smile without scaring people. But um, yeah, they got but that two, losing teeth. Fantastic for tearing off more shreds of who you thought you were. So I’m grateful for even the tooth guy

Rick Archer: on my teeth, but I kind of prefer to hang on to him as possible.

Tree: So yeah, so I’ve trained in tre and do the shamanic work, but I feel that this I know, Mooji says, and I totally believe it and just listen to Mooji or Baba, and you know, it is there. But my experience was clearing out and cleaning out the trauma. And so yeah, I do do that work. Now.

Rick Archer: What is it? Is there What do you mean by that? Just then,

Tree: I don’t know. What did I say? Mooji. And Baba, and like, the selfies there? Oh, yeah. And it’s just there. And it is, and it is, but my experience was I cleaned out some trauma.

Rick Archer: Yeah. I think that’s everybody’s experience. I mean, you know, isn’t the self is there for everyone? Yeah, I mean, but do they experience it? You know, for the most part, no. You know, and there’s a saying in the Gita, that one sees the self in all beings and all beings in the self. So in an elephant in a dog in a in people in all, it’s all the same self, but just the fact that it is I mean, it’s the same self and Adolf Hitler and you know, you know, all kinds of nasty people. But that doesn’t really help any in terms of, in terms of, if we just brush it off that oh, it’s all the same self therefore, everybody’s ultimately enlightened. There’s a big difference between that and actually embodying it. Yeah, and clearing clearing away all the crud that would make us a genocidal you know, person or even minor even minor infractions or whatever.

Tree: Yeah, so I yeah, I do feel that In my experience, the shamanic work that the guides and the subtle beings did on me and then followed by a few years now of tre practice. And yeah,

Rick Archer: so since you live out in the middle of nowhere, and you hardly ever see anybody, you really do tre practice with anyone. Good point are you just do it on yourself?

Tree: I do do it on myself. But people come I come but yeah, obviously my audience is limited in, in customers in a small town, but I can work in I can drive to the town and work there also. Yeah, yeah. But I think I’m thinking of I live in such a beautiful place that I’m thinking of, you know, maybe having a as a retreat place for people to come and get the joy of working, you know, in nature, and perhaps, you know, some trauma release and tension and stress release and growth into what is having the chance to be here. And like I was allowed to be here. Yeah.

Rick Archer: Just seeing if any questions have come in. Okay, so is there anything that we’re I mean, you and I talked the other day about how there was no end of stuff we could talk about? And it’d be like this, we’ll have to sort of take a snapshot and give people a taste and is there anything that you feel is has been significant for you is significant now and so on, that you really want to have the opportunity to express that you’d like people to hear?

Tree: Okay. I suppose I can only share what helped me because everyone’s path is so different. But for me, it was surrender to the guru. And reflecting myself in nature, and feeling myself as that perfection of nature. So the combination for me was guru solitude. Devotion, lots of devotion. Yeah.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I was actually just listening to a talk today by a woman named Joyce sharp, whom I interviewed some quite a few years ago talking about devotion and surrender. And she was talking about how, you know, in some non dual circles, those those ideas are kind of put down, you know, people feel like well, it’s dualistic, or it’s emotional, and so on. And she was giving some pretty good counter arguments to that to that idea. I wonder if you if you would care to address that. You know, how you feel devotion and surrender are significant and perhaps don’t contradict the principles of non duality

Tree: just the love is there for that perfect being and yet, at the same time, I feel that perfect being coming out through here, coming out through here, so in a way, there’s no separation. And yet I can enjoy their beauty and and adore them at the same time.

Rick Archer: So it’s a little bit paradoxical. Yeah. Yeah, so there’s oneness and yet there’s a flow of of devotion.

Tree: Yeah, yeah. And the more I adore, Baba and Mooji and nature, the more the bubbling flows out of the self,

Rick Archer: yeah. Yeah. Which is enjoyable, I would guess. Yeah. blissful, blissful. The Shankara said, Shankar was one of the founders of non duality, but he said that the, the intellect imagines duality for the sake of devotion. And to me, that phrase implies that there’s an intrinsic beauty and devotion of sweetness and devotion that is experienced one would want to have even even a master of non duality like Shankara and that he kind of, you know, sets up dualistic conditions so as to create some sort of flow like you’re just describing to have to have the bliss bubble.

Tree: Yeah, I definitely would. Well, I’ve seen Baba pray, you know, and Mooji trying to, to Papaji,

Rick Archer: it’s actually quite a devotional scene around Mooji from what it is almost a little bit over the top.

Tree: I’ve never been I’ve only ever seen Mooji on the net, so. But whenever I say all the beings like in his presence, they look so clear and very light and beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Rick Archer: So do you have a kind of a sense of, I mean, it’s only been a year, you said since its awakening with, and I’m sure that, you know, if we were to talk a year, five years, 10 years from now, it would have been will have matured and deepened and whatever, you know, quite a bit, do you ever do you have a sense of where that’s heading or, you know, kind of a sense of what the horizon looks like, as it were?

Tree: I don’t know. I don’t know. But I realize, like, I realize, coming down and integrating a bit I, I was so sort of, I feel like I was so far gone, and, and way out that people would start talking from their person. And I was inappropriately laughing, you know, thinking this was quite recent, you know, thinking, Oh, they think they’re the person, you know, and I would laugh and it was inappropriate. And then I had nights and nights of visions of really violent visions of humanity, you know, rape, torture, just humanity’s violence, and, and then, a few nights after that, I experienced everything, the elements, mountains, that the creatures, the people, all the hopes and dreams, and just the great beauty of the play. And it’s sort of brought me in and down and a bit more integrated and more functional. So that’s been the change so far. And as Barbara says, the shock when you see the self is so great, but it’s just the beginning. You know, it’s the beginning of the involution. So, yeah, I don’t know. But, yeah,

Rick Archer: that was a good answer. And it’s, it’s interesting that he referred to it as the beginning, because some people would think of it as the end. You know, but I suppose

Tree: I might have misquoted him, but I read that light the other evening, and it be like, it’s such a shock, but it’s not the end. So, yeah,

Rick Archer: I’m not sure there is an end. I think it’s, it’s, perhaps, wise to have that attitude. I know a number of teachers whom I respect Adi Shanti. Alma and others have said it’s, and even in Zen, there’s that same beginner’s mind that they’ve said, it’s always good to have the attitude of a beginner. Because it’s, it’s so easy. I heard Adyashanti give hold talks about this, to have an experience that seems so complete and so profound, that you you think that must be it, you know, I couldn’t imagine anything more than this. And you can kind of get stuck there unless you have this attitude of kind of innocent willingness to be open to Yeah.

Tree: Are you just just prompted a thought I’m just sort of falling promptings in life. But I did get the prompting that you’re wallowing a bit in the blips, you know, you’re wallowing in the bliss. I got that intuition recently here. And and then I got those visions, like I got the intuition. You’re wallowing in the bliss here. You know, you’ve been staring at the concrete floor for eight months, not doing a lot. And at the time, I felt like, there’s nothing to do like, I have nothing to do. I don’t want to be anything. I don’t want to do anything that that was so strong. And I spoke to moody on the net about that. And he said, Yeah, you feel like that, but they will be doing and there has been doing more recently. Yeah. I’m back into to working and I feel more functional. But there’s the underlying, full empty bliss happening there. So yeah,

Rick Archer: yeah. You know, they say that they’re, I think, five Sheaths, they’re called coaches. And I can’t name them all but they get more and more subtle. Maybe the body is the grossest one of them, they get more and more subtle, and the subtlest one is said to be Anandamaya Kosha which is the bliss sheath. So even even bliss, by that model is said to be a sheath and by sheath it means it’s something that You know, constrains us in some way. And it has to go. It has to go has to be broken through.

Tree: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I got that intuition quite strongly like you’re wallowing slap.

Rick Archer: Yeah, snap. That’s very bad. Yeah. carry water okay, good. So it’s been sweet. I think we’ve covered a nice bunch of stuff people haven’t sent in a lot of questions, although, there have been about 100 people watching most of the time. Is there any final words you’d like to say to people about anything?

Tree: I suppose I would like to say, talk about tip lab spoken about Tre. But I would say if people are interested in take it up as a practice, because it comes your physiology down. And because we are in the body, we’re in this human condition. And we can get stuck in states that are turned on fight and flight freeze disassociation flop. And by regulating the organism with the TRA, we can come to a really calm mind and come into the present state. And David Purcell, he doesn’t say you know anything about Enlightenment, this is just my experience, I age certainly makes you a more easy to live with person. You respond as opposed to react, so you’re less reactive? It’s just a fantastic practice for the huge human physiology. Yeah.

Rick Archer: Do you have to learn it from a person directly? Or can you learn it off a website or what?

Tree: You can get a DVD, but it is really great to learn off a person and it is a self healing technique. So you just learn and once you can self regulate, you can go away for life and practice

Rick Archer: and other teachers have it all over the world. There are teachers

Tree: everywhere in the world here.

Rick Archer: Link to I’ll link to your website about that. But then I imagine what you do let me know if you want me to link to anything different. But I’ll just link to that. And people can go there and learn more about it. And yeah,

Tree: good. This, there’s lots of teachers, you just get on the Global website and try a website. And there’s lots of teachers and yeah, I think it’s a fantastic practice.

Rick Archer: Do you have any inclination to like talk to people around the world? Sometimes when people do these interviews, people like to connect over Skype? And you know, some to some people I interviewed charged for that some do it for free. But no, do you have time and inclination to do that or not so much.

Tree: I’m not really feeling that wreck here. I’m not really feeling that. I will have this place for maybe like retreat at some stage where people can come and be in nature and just have the enjoyment I feel particularly women would like to go on in being nature, but don’t feel safe to go camping in the bush. So this little 17 acres with trees and mountain. I would I will work towards setting up retreat for people, not just women. But yeah.

Rick Archer: Although anyone could have women’s retreats exclusively. Yeah,

Tree: maybe. Yeah. So I’m sort of looking to that as part of the work, but I don’t know. Yeah. See how it goes? Yeah. See how guys Yeah.

Rick Archer: Okay, well, great. I appreciate your taking the time to talk to me and to BatGap listeners, it’s been a nice settling conversation. I’ve talked a little bit more than usual, but I feel very settled talking to so I’m not like, on coffee or anything. Yeah, it’s enjoyable to talk to. So let me just make a few concluding remarks. I’ve been talking with tree wise, but originally, Michelle, was your name Michelle, something. And this book that I read that I found rather fascinating. Is it in print, is it downloadable, if

Tree: you have any, I haven’t even edited it. I just sort of wrote it down. It’s not published. Okay.

Rick Archer: So it’s not even available. That’s fine. No. Okay. I suppose Do you have any intention of publishing? You never know.

Tree: If there was an interest? Yeah. If there was an interest? Yeah. Can people contact you through a website? Yes. All right. So if they’re interested in the book, maybe they could send you an email and you could let them know if and when you make it more publicly available. Oh, sure, yeah. It was an interesting book far out. Fastening, I like reading things that kind of stretch my assumptions about the way the world works. Yeah. Well, it certainly stretched mine. Yeah.

Rick Archer: It’s interesting. You’ve been on quite a ride. Okay, good. Well, thanks. Just a couple of concluding remarks. As people watching this mostly know, this is an ongoing series, there’s a new one every week to be notified of new ones every week. Either Subscribe on YouTube or sign up to be notified by email on the BatGap website or both. There are this is also exists as an audio podcast if you like to listen to things while you’re commuting or whatever. Donate button as I mentioned earlier, and a bunch of other things if you poke around in the in the menus and and you’ll you’ll find some things that you may find of interest including, as I mentioned earlier that all the previous interviews categorized and alphabetized and every which way so thanks for listening or watching and we’ll see you next week. Thanks Trey. We get a shot of you doing that very good at the switch the camera okay, thanks a lot.