Tim Freke with Lisa Cairns Interview
Rick Archer: Welcome to a special edition of Buddha at the Gas Pump. I was contacted by Boris yatch, a little while ago who has made a movie called who’s driving the dream bus. Interesting movie, and Boris is going to tell us in a minute what that movie is about. But he suggested he’s having a conference pretty soon, based on the theme of this movie over in London. And he suggested we have a little conversation to sort of broaden awareness that this conference is coming up and invited. Tim freak and Lisa Cairns, both of whom I’ve interviewed in the past. And so I thought, Great, that’ll be fun. So you can look up my previous interviews with Tim and Lisa. But Tim is a philosopher, or lover of wisdom as the word means who is pioneering a simple new way to experience a profound spiritual awakening, which fully embraces our everyday humanity. I won’t go on because we don’t have an hour. And Lisa talks worldwide with people about non duality or oneness, the aliveness that always it is no matter what is imagined in it, subject object good, bad, right, wrong, beauty ugly, me, you. And Boris will introduce himself. And tell us a little bit about dream bus. Go ahead bars.
Boris Jansch: Hi, thanks, Rick. So who’s driving the dream bus was a project that I started about 15 years ago, and I used to run a production company and I, I was kind of in a It seems my early 20s, I was, had this deep yearning to find answers to the big questions in life. And so I tried everything from from lucid dreaming, to astral projection to Reiki to hypnosis meditation, I kind of dip my toes in everywhere, and I read a lot of spiritual books. Philosophy, and I was always left thinking, Okay, what next? So this deep yearning turned into what I would say is a deep depression. And and that really was the inspiration for making a film and contacting various people and exploring these big questions all around the notion of who am I? What’s this waking dreaming thing that we all find ourselves in? Because it’s a bit bonkers. And so and then I started contacting people and the people who I spoke to were, were people that I had either come across my reading certain books, or you know, on YouTube. And it developed over time. Eventually, I was drawn to the notion of non duality. And that seemed like a, it seemed like as Rupert Spira puts, it seemed like it’s the final furlong in terms of the search for, for answers to this life, having explored everything else from religion to philosophy, spiritual teachings, non duality, the notion of non duality seemed to be the final word where, you know, the search ended. For me, this, this cut long story short, that the film is basically a personal journey journey going through that, you know, going through all of the big questions with a few fantastic speakers like Timothy three Tony Parsons, Jeff Foster, and a few others. And and so who’s driving the dream bus the event is, is basically it’s further exploring ideas within that film and and, yes, so that’s . I’m not sure. I’m not sure that was
Rick Archer: so Lisa. Lisa wasn’t in the
Lisa Cairns: You still got your
Rick Archer: mustache.
Boris Jansch: Yes. That’s correct. Yeah.
Rick Archer: He decided to leave it on.
Boris Jansch: It’s disturbing anyone. I’ll happily remove it.
Tim Freke: I can’t get mine off. I’m afraid.
Rick Archer: So Lisa, you weren’t in the film, but are you going to be speaking at the conference?
Lisa Cairns: And yeah, you
Rick Archer: Okay, so that’s why we invited you. And it’s interesting because Boris suggested to me that there was some difference of perspective between you and Tim. And that that might make for a little bit of controversy, which might make the interview interesting. So sorry to put you on the spot there, Boris. But, um, perhaps we could just have each of you, Lisa and Tim, lay out your notion of what the film talked about, and what, you know, what had you been in the film? And and in Tim’s case, you were what you presented as your perspective. Maybe starting with Lisa.
Lisa Cairns: Okay. Um Wow, what I thought the film was about.
Rick Archer: What do you want me to give you a seed thought, guys? Okay. Well, you know, I mean, the very title of the film implies that the world is a dream or an illusion, you know, and that there may not be anyone driving this dream bus of a world that and a lot of the speakers in the film, emphasize that there really is no person Tony Parsons is the most notorious for emphasizing that. And therefore, since there’s no person, there’s nothing to do no one to do it. It’s all kind of going on automatically. Other people introduce more of a kind of a driver in the bus and say, Yeah, you know, there’s that that’s true on some level, but I also feel like, I am a person in addition to maybe being a non person that I’m making choices, and I’m feeling things as a human being and, and there’s freewill as far as I can perceive. So those seem to be contradictory perspectives. So where would you fall on that spectrum? Lisa?
Lisa Cairns: Um, it doesn’t seem to be anybody driving the dream bus from here. Okay. It seems to be so. But that doesn’t say about what the film is about. But from this perspective, that just seems to be life happening. Just life happening. And in that there’s an appearance of choice or this appearance of ideas, but that still doesn’t imply somebody driving it. choiceless choice, but the film, I felt like the film was Boris’s exploration of the subject. This is a really sweet exploration of, of who he was and his relationship with the world. That’s what I felt the film was about.
Rick Archer: Okay. And but so your experience, though, is that there, there are choices, there are preferences and so on. But there doesn’t seem to be a chooser or prefer in other words, that there is no one to who who is having these choices. There are just choices. Showing up in the dream.
Lisa Cairns: This choice. I wouldn’t call it in the dream, but choices appear. Uh huh. Choice appears to choose to drink tea, my tea and, or to grab the cup. But it doesn’t appear for someone. Just sometimes action just happens. Sometimes the thought appears to to do something. And sometimes it’s combination of both. But it still doesn’t imply somebody there. And when there’s no choice, there’s no choice when there’s no. So coming out, I’m going to choose the T there’s just what else is happening? What?
Rick Archer: See, yeah, okay. So in other words, you can’t sort of identify or locate a drinker of the T or a chooser of the thought or owner of the dog or whatever, there’s just these things that you that are
Lisa Cairns: happening, life happening, what’s happening, always just what’s happening. It’s so simple. It’s just what’s happening and it doesn’t belong to somebody that somebody only ever is in interpretation.
Rick Archer: So how would that how would that contrast if it does with your experience, Tim?
Tim Freke: Well, my own feeling is that that is a very beautiful statement of half the picture. And I had the delight of being with Lisa on a panel at the science knows reality conference and thoroughly enjoyed her playfulness in that perspective, which I delighted and love. What is interesting me is something else, or slightly different. And but I really relate to what he’s saying because it was something which fascinated me also for a very long time. And that’s not to say that it’s lesser in any way. I just feel like there’s a there’s there may be more to say I’m very suspicious when human beings end up saying it’s the final furlong Well, we’ve arrived and, and I think all this is a very big mysterious business we’re in and I suspect we’re always at the beginning of the end. So as someone who feels very much at the beginning, I’d like to say a couple things. Really, one is, I think this image of the dream. And it’s, it’s a metaphor, you know, in science, they use metaphors like, they used to compare the world to a machine, in which all the cogs turned, there was no freewill, it was just a machine. And then we got other metaphors like it’s a hologram, or it’s a computer. And and these are objects. In spirituality, the metaphors tend to be subjective metaphors, because spirituality is a subjective investigation. So the natural metaphor is dream. And I use that a lot. And what’s great about the dream metaphor, is it captures actually, for real, something that very deep part of actually what I experience, which is that the awake state seems mean to me like a lucid dream. And what strikes me about a lucid dream is that you don’t wake up from this, you don’t go it was all an illusion, it’s all what you actually find is you’re in it. And you’re, it’s in you at the same time, like a dream. So when you’re dreaming, you still experience being a person in a dream, making choices, having experience seeing, from one perspective making other dream, dream people. And the dramas are important, they matter. And the transport between you can and you can learn and you can go on a journey. And there’s a story. And at the same time, you when you’re lucid, when you’re lost in the dream, that’s what you see. But when you’re lucid dreaming, you see that also the opposite is equally true, that you are not in the dream at all that you are the dreamer, who’s dreaming the whole thing. And from that perspective, you’re the whole dream. You’re everything and everyone in the dream. And you see this beautiful paradox that you’re both separate, and individual from looking at the dream, and you’re the whole thing at once. And that catches for me much more. What I experience, which is oh, these two sit together and I can’t prejudice one over the other. They’re both part of the nature of reality. And here, it’s very simple. Like Lisa says, it’s all mystery. It’s all one, it’s all happening. And here. It’s the opposite. It’s very personal. It’s very complex, very tender. It’s very vulnerable. It’s very human. And they both sit together. Oh my god. And what’s exciting me about this conference, this who’s driving the dream bus conference, is because you know, and I may be wrong about this, I ready to be shown clearly wrong. But from what I can see, the non dual community is moving and changing. And I’m so pleased, because when I first really came across this 15 years ago, whenever it was 20 years ago, it was pretty non duality wasn’t much spoken about. I was very influenced by people like Ramesh balsa car had a very extreme non dual view, because it was hugely exciting, and took me to a very interesting place. I’ve never really seen it so clearly as when Ramesh showed it to me. But the journey didn’t stop. I thought it had stopped, but it didn’t carry it on. It was more interesting. And it moved back in to this both and so that the personal rather than the being the illusion, and the thing to get rid of suddenly became Yeah, it’s all one now. But this is really interesting. Oh, yeah, it’s all a dream. Now what is the dream is this just some mistake is the fact of our individuality. 13 billion years of evolution, some error, you know, some illusion, we’ve fallen into it, if only it will go away, we’d all be better off or is actually it really precious, really important. But to really see what it is, we need to also have this perspective of seeing that it’s all one. And in that way, if I just made me read one thing and put if I put on my scholarly hat, because I wrote a number of scholarly books when I was younger, and one of the most most popular was on Gnosticism. And the ancient mysteries. And what fascinated me about Gnosticism in the ancient mysteries, is they had this initiatory process, which they saw as a natural process, I think that human beings went through when they awaken. And the first step was moving from identification with the body to invent identification with a separate soul. And that’s what you can see in the New Age movement, the personal development, movement, all the things I suspect most of us have come across and been through in some way. And then there was this big jump, which they call the pneumatic or spiritual initiation, which is when you come right out of the personal and you go, Oh, my God, and that’s the non dual, you just come out and it’s Oh, my God, and you see that it all just happening, you know, there’s, it’s a revelation, you think this, it was all about developing a person, and suddenly you’re not one. And it’s Whoa, but it doesn’t stop there. The initiatory process moves on to what they called the mystical marriage or the sacred marriage, which is the being bringing together of all opposites, in which they are both to and one at the same time. And what I what I’m interested in is, I think the non dual community is moving in that direction. That’s what I really noticed in these events I’ve been seeing is that more and more people are coming through to the point where they’re realizing that the personal our lives is not something to be dismissed. Not not something to just just ignore, but actually is really, really important. And there’s a greater authenticity coming in which I love. And the most important thing, when there’s both and there is love, there really is because the love is in the human. It comes through from the one into the many. So I’m really hoping that there’s going to be an interesting debate about the no one’s there versus. Yeah. And also somebody there. This both and perspective
Lisa Cairns: on the panel with Tim.
Tim Freke: I think I’m with Tony, which I’m really looking forward to.
Rick Archer: Oh, God, I gotta see that
Tim Freke: Which should be great. I really hope so.
Lisa Cairns: Cuz me and who else?
Tim Freke: I, who am I? Who else my with? Boris?
Boris Jansch: Richard Lange, I believe? Yes. The Headless way.
Tim Freke: Hmm. All right. Okay. Great. Great. It’ll be fun. See, I see I really, I think it’s great panels. Because I think it’s lovely. I mean, in one way, you never get to hear really where someone’s coming from, because you’re moving between people. But it’s so lovely when you can hear human beings who are explorers who have who have actually bothered to really question this and have found something which I think is bothered worth sharing, and which people are interested in hearing about, and then we can compare notes. Well, that’s where I’m coming from, it’s much more of a explore of the mystery. And there’s a there’s a, there’s a kind of a human humility, I guess, which I love when we can just reach into the mystery completely as equals before this enormous mystery. And go, Oh, looks like this. What do you think? And and I love that.
Rick Archer: Hey, Tim, I’m curious. In those Gnostic traditions that you mentioned, do they discuss the tendency for people to feel that whatever stage they ever I have arrived at is final, and to not anticipate that there might be something more?
Tim Freke: I haven’t come across that because I mean, the literature from the Gnostic period in the ancient period is very, you know, we don’t have a huge man. But I’ve certainly I certainly see that I see it myself. I mean, let me say that, you know, you know, when I, when I was much, much, much younger, when I was a teenager and found my guru, who was the perfect Master, you know, I’d arrived already. I’d already found the answer. And then that was not the answer. And I moved on to other answers. Until now, it feels like no, there’s always there’s never arriving without traveling. Just as there’s never traveling without arriving. There to always go together. There’s always more. And thank God, you know, thank God, there’s always more.
Rick Archer: So Lisa, what did all that sound like, from your perspective that Tim just said?
Lisa Cairns: Um Well, in all honesty, it was the sounds of hearing. It was very nice. And I enjoyed listening to Tim. But what else is it been that?
Rick Archer: True, but I hope
Tim Freke: it’s a little more than that, Lisa. Because when you speak, I can hear meaning in what you’re in the sounds you’re making. If it was just sounds, it would just be out loud. But I can hear me, which is amazing. I mean,
Lisa Cairns: obviously, they they make sense, if there’s a certain type of listening, they like are focused in listening, if there’s a broad listening, that tends not to make so much sense. But if there’s a focus in listening, then the word seemingly fit together and make sense, but it doesn’t mean to be a dismissal of, of what you’re saying, but it’s just sounds appearing. It’s not it is not the way it is. It can never be the way it is where it is, is the way it is, is what is now. It’s just
Rick Archer: It’s true. It sounds it sounds appearing, and your dog has lots of little cells living but somehow you give interpretation to that as a dog whom you love and whom you play with and whom you
Lisa Cairns: might not happen.
Rick Archer: Generally, it tends to if we want to be functional in the world, does it not?
Lisa Cairns: Um, no, because it’s not seen like that. From here. It doesn’t seem like I have to put any effort into the that there’s a Lisa here that has to be put effort into being functional. Life just happens. It’s so simple. It just happens. There’s feeding the dog or there’s patting the dog or there’s telling the Dog No, or picking the dog up, or setting the dog on the lap. or Now it doesn’t feel like I’m having to put effort. There’s a meeting here having to put effort into speaking speaking just comes out.
Tim Freke: Ratio do not do not like effort, Lisa,
Lisa Cairns: and I go
Rick Archer: Come on, you’re making this effortful, but no one said anything about effort, I mean, fine. Everything. I mean, couldn’t everything Tim said have been interpreted as something that
Lisa Cairns: it could be interpreted in many ways. Some some beings would interpret it as genius. Some beings would interpret it as crap some beings would interpret it as I’m not making any sense. It could be interpreted lots of different ways. It’s no definite way. It’s just what it is.
Rick Archer: Can you want to respond to that? But I’m trying not
Tim Freke: been here before. Drama isn’t the most articulate in my view when she laughs engagingly and blows us all away. Because at that point, no, really, I’m not being funny now, and I’m not trying to I’m really I really mean it because of that. that point you express I think what you see perfectly, because it’s something which isn’t to do with words. Yeah. And, and therefore, when you come to words, I hear you struggle, because what you’re saying is, and I get that I read, it doesn’t feel like a struggle, it’s just nobody, there’s no struggle, I can see it just you know, which is why when I say when you smile at you are doing now, it’s the most articulate, because at that point, there’s no words, it’s just flying out of your eyes, and I get it, I really, really do. I really get also that right now on your journey, this is where you want to be, or the life wants you to be, if you don’t like that, or the nobody wants you to be or whatever it is, or the one is put you or whatever works for you. And that doesn’t mean that you won’t spend the rest of your life articulating this for people beautifully. I mean, it’s not you know, it’s not that you will must move on or you will move on or the is even, you know, it doesn’t matter. I love the fact that that the consciousness is exploring itself the life that upside is exploring itself from so many different directions. And like you I don’t think there’s any way of saying this, right? Because I don’t I don’t know gonna happen.
Lisa Cairns: But maybe we should get into this subject as to the title of the film his dream bus, but I don’t see a you or me. That’s only an interpretation, which isn’t wrong interpretation. Who is this, you or me?
Tim Freke: Well, I think the Yomi arises here, Lisa. And I think it’s fairly obvious. And I think when we start saying things, which misses out the obviousness of our experience, we’ve kind of become like, fundamentalist religion, religion does kind of says things which are kind of a bit like, hang on a second, I really think that. So for instance, you know, I am separate from you as a conscious being. And that’s obvious, because I can think of thought now, and I can know what it is, and you don’t know what it is, now we’re having that experience. And you’re the same, Rick’s the same, and Boris is the same. So we, the thing we need to understand is our is where we start from, that’s where we start. And then we can come to this deep place where we can realize that the feet the being on which that’s arising is not separate, and it’s not. But the experience of being a conscious being is separate. And that’s very obvious. And I think any, any, if we deny that we’ve kind of moved into a realm of fantasy,
Lisa Cairns: whereby we’re using already saying we are somebody?
Tim Freke: Well, for instance, let’s go back to my example. What am I thinking? I’m a conscious being, I’m having a consciously separate experience, and you have no access to it. So there’s on that level, there’s clearly a URI as conscious beings. I don’t think that can be disputed, can it?
Lisa Cairns: Um, well, I’m sure it could be. But can we
Tim Freke: how can we, because we’re clearly having different conscious experiences. That’s an idea. We’re different. We’re different bodies, we’re different bodies,
Lisa Cairns: you don’t even see your body. Now. There’s not even a team that sees his body.
Tim Freke: I can I there is there is a there is something here on one level, there’s also you know, nothing here.
Lisa Cairns: Imagination. That’s all in interpretation.
Tim Freke: I think you’re getting confused, because everything, obviously, is it that we say is going to be language, there’s no two ways about that. And everything we think is going to be language, we can’t do anything about that. So that’s, you know, that, if we just go back to Oh, it’s just a language with everything that said it will always be right. You know, if everything that said to you, you just that wasn’t it? Well, it will always be right, because there is only language, which I
Lisa Cairns: was trying to point out is that, um, is that his interpretation? That you are a body?
Tim Freke: Yes, I’m not I’m not identifying necessarily by saying I am this body or, but I am certainly saying there is a body in this room on one level. And there’s, and there is, or let’s get let’s do with conscious being because that’s the one that I think is most intriguing with you. There is I have I there i There is a conscious being here looking through conscious beings through this amazing internet over there. And we can connect, I think a separate very obviously, and also as not separate. And there’s both. And I think that the problem generally is that people don’t see they’re not separate, they don’t see where we’re one being, which is a huge loss. But to replace it by not seeing that we’re also separate is also a huge loss. Because what makes you so interesting is you’re not the same. You think different thoughts. You have different things arising yours conscious of being in that room.
Lisa Cairns: Yeah, it doesn’t. That doesn’t make so much sense here because there’s just what’s happening and what’s happening that
Tim Freke: okay. You just said it doesn’t make much sense here. Yeah, the fact that it’s here and not there, which is where this is. So over here it’s this that here is a point is a reference point. And that reference point is what is separate. You are you are like you are like a different way even the ones see you are like a different point in the unconscious point of consciousness in the great unconscious field of being. But we are different points in the one unconscious field, aren’t we? You said you haven’t?
Lisa Cairns: Well, I completely don’t I have a different perspective than that. The different perspective is, is that it’s all seen as what is.
Tim Freke: But it’s your perspective. It’s not mine isn’t so do you see? There’s a conversation, maybe a duet for one, but it’s still a duet.
Lisa Cairns: I just don’t see an iron or you. I just there’s just aliveness happening being lots of different columns appearing. Now the the world famous, and I don’t this okay, I don’t see a Lisa. The problem I have with what we’re saying, I just there is no Lisa. There’s just what’s happening.
Rick Archer: Let me throw something into the pot. It’s good thing you guys are in separate countries. But um,
Lisa Cairns: no, we’re in the same country. I think.
Rick Archer: I thought you were a kid. I thought we were in Spain
Tim Freke: Before you throw something new in Rick, can I just can I just pick up on one little word? Okay. Which I’d love to do. You see, I think there’s, there’s a word, which I probably not very fond of. I don’t have most words, I don’t mind. But this word I’m not particularly fond of. And it’s the word just because when the word it’s just is used, it’s nearly always a sign of reductionism. It’s just this. No, you know, it’s like, when scientists go look, you know, you may be falling in love, but it’s just chemicals in your body. Or, you know, which Einstein ridiculed, or it’s just the, you know, the cause and effect of gravity. And it is that obviously, it’s that are interesting, but it’s not just that, it’s a whole spectrum of things. And the same happens with non duality. You hear this, it’s just, well, it is that, but it’s not just that it’s actually a whole spectrum. The, the great and miracle of being is it expresses itself in a whole spectrum of which that oneness is, is the grand, but the expression is into uniqueness and individuality. And I personally, personally feel that that is the most important thing about this life process is the its expression into individuality.
Rick Archer: Do you want to response that Lisa?
Lisa Cairns: Um, well, um, that’s just a very simple here. And I don’t see it as here as in Lisa’s body, that’s probably what it sounds like. Because it’s just life happening. And it doesn’t happen to someone or for someone, it’s just life happening. This completely impersonal.
Rick Archer: And I think you’re speaking sincerely from your experience, as is Tim.
Lisa Cairns: I’m not sure if whose experience we’re talking from.
Rick Archer: Right. But there’s a functioning mechanism there, which we appear, which we see as Lisa, which is, which is perceiving or understanding life to be a certain way to be just what’s happening, and and has the capability of expressing that to us.
Lisa Cairns: I don’t know those things. Actually. You don’t know all those things. I just don’t I don’t know that there’s a mechanism that’s perceiving and receiving or anything that you said, all that’s known is what is and in that thoughts and words and everything coming out. But none of its know none of its truth.
Tim Freke: None of it. You’re right. It’s none of its truth. And the odd thing for the odd thing about being Tim, freaking these conversations, which I have many, is I get to represent celebrating separateness, as opposed to waking up to oneness. Whereas really, I’m about both, and I hear what you’re saying. And I think it’s so important to have the perspective that you have, I really just, you know, I really do. It’s just the in the articulation of it, because what you’re trying to say cannot be said, if in the articulation of it, it can’t help but kind of turn around on itself. So when you say nothing else is known as truth. That’s absolutely right. But certainly a lot more is known, you know, you every sentence that you speak is arising from a whole history of speaking, not just the whole page, I noticed not the experience. But if you look more carefully, that must be the truth in that sense that what you’ve been saying those sounds and responding in that way to me,
Lisa Cairns: now makes very logical sense.
Tim Freke: Well, it’s not about logic, it’s just about looking. And just looking and listening, because the words are not just science, they carry meaning. And that’s why they’re so interesting. So we need to account for some signs have meaning what’s there, where’s that arise from?
Lisa Cairns: That, but that makes very logical sense that it arises from the past, but that’s not the actual experience that anything arises from the past.
Tim Freke: No, you’re right. That’s right. But but in trying to understand the nature of reality, we have to get up. I think we have to actually, again, you know, when you’re stuck in time, it’s such a revelation to come into the now when you’re stuck into that stuck in the now. And you think that’s all there is because it isn’t all there is. It really is. There’s a past and there’s a future and we live in it. Right now. We’re living in it. All of it. It’s, you know, you eventually I think you come back and you go, Ah, look, hang on. I’ve, I’ve ended up in an absurdity, which is very interesting, but it’s an absurdity because it’s one side of a very paradoxical reality, very paradoxical predicament, and you’re able to re own your humanity. And come back to where you started and know the place for the first time, as TS Eliot says, or in the Zen koan, you know, it starts with you trying to master the ball in the 10 Balls story, and then you give up on that. And then you discover eventually the eighth of the 10 balls, which is the empty circle, there is nothing. And then there’s nine and 10. And it doesn’t end with the empty circle. The 10 bull story goes on in the Zen tradition, it ends with the Zen master walking through the marketplace, where he started with a bottle of wine in one hand, and the staff in the other, just laughing and playing. Because he’s in, he’s no longer up the mountain, he’s come back down to the marketplace. And all of this is allegories human beings have created throughout time to account for the same kind of process, in which eventually, you know, the, again, to quote the Zen tradition, they put it beautifully. You start with mountains, mountains, rivers are rivers then suddenly, mountains aren’t mountains, and rivers aren’t rivers. And then again, mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers. And there’s a time when you kind of it feels like we can come back to our humanity, just as it is. And embody it as it is with this deep knowing of the oneness of being. And that’s love. That’s where the love flows. Because we’re right in touch with our humaneness in all of its
Rick Archer: companies. That Nisargadatta quote, where he said something like that you remember that?
Tim Freke: Music a data set? Yeah, one of his quotes that I love is his wisdom is is I can’t remember verbatim. But Lisa might. It’s something about that. I’m thinking of Suzuki Roshi who says, wisdom is nothing is the emptiness of things and love is the muddiness of things. But there’s a data says almost the same thing about
Lisa Cairns: my life. My life flows between those two. Yeah, yeah, and flows.
Tim Freke: And that’s it flows between those two poles, beautifully put. There’s the messiness, which is where we’re all separate. He is the one that’s where we’re all one, just like a dream. And that we can, we’re in both, we’re already in both, we just have to pay enough attention to see we’re both in the now always. And yet. Also, the now is arising in this process of time, which is what makes it so interesting. Even to make a noise like this requires time, because until I reached the end of the sentence, it make no sense. This is where the story is. It’s like and you know, you can look at a story, you can look at a movie, and this is what reductionism does. reductionism, looks at the movie. And it goes, Look, it’s, you know, well, there’s two, two reductionism, the scientific reductionism, which looks at it and goes, it’s just the DVD DVD. It’s not, it’s nothing. It’s just, it’s just information on a disk. That’s all it is. It’s just that. And then the spiritual non dual reductionism, which just goes, it’s just colored flickering lights, it’s just color flickering lights. And then in between, you can go it’s both of those. And it’s a story. And that story is the human experience. And it’s precious.
Rick Archer: Lisa says something about 15 minutes ago, and maybe you can remember what it was when I start saying it. But he said something about? Well, yeah, if we focus down, then it means this. But you know, the implication being that it’s sort of a concession with duality, or something to focus down my understanding and experiences that the full if we want to use the word enlightenment, which is, yeah, I hesitate to use because it’s so loaded with connotations, but is the capacity or the ability to be to appreciate the unboundedness and focus within precise boundaries simultaneously, and to you know, imbue or to acknowledge all the meaning and significance and importance of those boundaries, and yet to see them essentially, as the boundless and that’s paradoxical. I mean, an enlightened person, so to speak, should be able to pilot a 747 in a snowstorm, you know, and remain in that silent, uninvolved, unboundedness. And appreciate all the diversity that he’s experiencing as essentially being that and yet at the same time, you know, really pay attention to what he’s doing and land the plane safely. There’s no contradiction or conflict between the meaning and significance of all the things in the world that we value and that we interact with. And the unboundedness that the deepest the deeper reality is there.
Lisa Cairns: Well, I don’t think I’m an enlightened person. So I think I
Rick Archer: caution you about, you know, has my hesitancy to use that term. And of course, you’re not a person and
Lisa Cairns: that’s just why is it just very simple here. There’s just what’s happening. It’s a bit of a bore for people because people like draw or like lots of words tend to not all the time and like yeah, And like looking at it from different levels, but it’s just what’s happening. And I’m not an enlightened person. i That’s an that would be another story that happens to someone in a story, which is an impossibility because we’re stories now, stories are just imagination. So there’s an imagination of you being someone that’s enlightened.
Tim Freke: Now, just just word again, you see,
Lisa Cairns: that would be complete.
Tim Freke: It’s just imagination. What about its imagination? Wow.
Lisa Cairns: But it’s nothing wrong with imagination, right imagination, and it’s not who you are. It’s just another thing that’s appearing in this the same as the light or the sounds or the smells, or
Tim Freke: you see, but don’t you ever get I mean, I mean, I feel funny here because I’m so delighted. You’re in this state, Lisa. And I have no desire whatsoever to say, Oh, well, alright. So whatever way you choose to describe it, but your Lisa or Lisa doesn’t exist, or whatever it is that captures it in words for you. But I’m just delighted, you’re you. And I’m delighted that you, you’re able to bring this into our world in the way you do. So I’m aware that we’re playing out this conversation, which can make it sound like I’m trying to convince you of something, which I’m not. But I’m intrigued that you are not intrigued by the colors as well as the light.
Lisa Cairns: And well, I think that you mean by the colors is in like thinking or not
Tim Freke: No, I mean, everything. That’s everything, which is multifarious, everything, which is diverse, everything, which is unique, everything which is individuating into a new form, and all the processes which happened over the course of time,
Rick Archer: maybe margin trig, then you realize, I mean, she, for instance, I know at least is an animal lover, and she she now has a dog, I’m sure she loves a dog and plays with a dog and, and there’s not a sort of a flat, emotionless dismissal of the reality.
Tim Freke: I certainly don’t get that from Lisa. Animation.
Lisa Cairns: There’s a fascination with this. And in these stories arise, but there’s no sense that I am more, that I am somebody that has more of those stories than anything else. It’s all appearing in what is. But before prior, there used to be a sense that I was somebody inside this body, and I was my past, and I am my future, and I am someone going along in time, then that seemingly collapsed, although that’s another story. And then there was just what is that? And what is is much, much more fascinating than that be dynamic that was happening prior. But that doesn’t mean to dismiss emotions, like full on emotions happen.
Rick Archer: Yeah. So would you say in your experience, that the emotions and the perceptions and actions and everything else is all contained within that? What is
Lisa Cairns: everything is contained within what is it’s all there? Wherever it is?
Rick Archer: Yeah, so the what is is not sort of a flat, colorless, homogenous SAP, it’s it’s sort of full. It’s full of life.
Lisa Cairns: And it’s trying to avoid any more.
Rick Archer: Yeah, it’s full of dynamism and, and richness and diversity, but all contained within the wholeness or the oneness.
Tim Freke: So So would it be would, would you would you be correct, then to say, Lisa, that over there, where we’re over there, and that what’s arising is that the life is full of individuation, and variety, and individual things, but not you, you’re the one thing which has no individual nature,
Lisa Cairns: this life is full of appearances. There’s no one parents, that’s more
Tim Freke: some of the different different appearances. There’s a difference between your your hair and your nose, or your table or your chair. And the different colors you can tell different colors, seemingly different appearances. But but they’re not separate in any way. They’re different, but they’re not separate. You mean they’re separate and not separate.
Lisa Cairns: No, they’re just seemingly different appearances. Right? Seemingly, a computer and a table and a hand that touches the computer. But it’s no there’s no longer the sense that the hand is that somebody stops at the edge of the hand and the computer begins there.
Tim Freke: Yeah, yeah. So so there’s kind of so you so it seems to me that actually what you’re describing is not dissimilar in a way that you’re describing it being separate and not separate, but you’re able to tell the difference between your hand and the computer. And also they’re not there’s no boundary between them.
Lisa Cairns: I’m a bore. I’m a negative teacher. Really, um, if I’m not even a teacher, but a negative speaker, right negative as in like, like it’s not that I am all appearances, is that that one that thinks that separate falls away and then all they’re left is appearances. Appearances are all the same essence of oneness aliveness, what
Tim Freke: but what you’ll discover Again, seems not dissimilar, just in a different language. It’s because what you’re saying is that you can tell the difference between your computer and your hand or the computer on the table. And yet, they’re all of one essence. So there’s no separateness. So there is a separate list, which you can recognize, because you’ve switched it. But there’s not a separate us. Yeah,
Lisa Cairns: recognition would only ever be in thoughts when the thoughts disappear. There’s just what is okay might be arises and says, Our Lisa’s hand got burned on the computer or burned or bitten by the dog or something. Right, that’s in thought, then when that dissolves, and there’s just what is again?
Tim Freke: Of course, yes. When there’s when this when the silence there is what is Yes, for sure.
Rick Archer: But obviously, thought serves a function, you need to walk down the street, and you need to recognize it,
Lisa Cairns: know what science, the creator of this sought to do something that appears in his thoughts do not create functioning. Oh, I didn’t say that. Okay, I think you said you need thoughts in order to function.
Rick Archer: It serves a purpose. It’s a faculty, when you’re walking down the street, you know, you might need to recognize that this is a bus and it’s moving very fast, and it’s large, and it’s heavy, and I better not stand in front of it. But that all that’s not all mentation process, it happens kind of spontaneously, but directly for through learning you you learn that as a child that you don’t run in front of buses,
Lisa Cairns: the body mind mechanism becomes conditioned, there doesn’t need to be thought about there’s many a time I’m sure when Rick’s crossed the road. And there’s been no thinking about how to do absolutely most of the times, my neck. But there was there’s some amazing how quickly we can type. We’re not like, what are you over there? Whatever it is.
Rick Archer: Yeah, well, actually, that’s probably
Tim Freke: I shouldn’t have I think, I think no, no, Rick, I think you should have done because I think you’re right. And I think again, it’s kind of like we’re big, we’re over simplifying things, because they’re also complex, as well as simple but and ironic for me, because I’m a great man of the simple everything I do is about the simple, but also, you know, with thoughts, when you say about the learning process, what we do, when we learn is that we, we start by being conscious of it and thinking about it. And then we once we’ve learned it, we can do it automatically. So when you’ve got kids, you’re constantly trying to get them to be conscious use their thoughts, to be able to think about things when you make every if you’re using physics, you’re gonna need maths, you know, we need these languages, it comes a point where it just functions. But that’s a journey to that place.
Rick Archer: Yeah, and I mean, any, any good violinist or skier or tennis player, or we have a dog interruption here, but that’s okay. So I think based on what Tim just was just saying, you know, there’s so many things in life that we might have taken some thought when we were first learning them, but have become automatic, because they’re, they’re so deeply ingrained, like an athletic ability, or musical ability or something like that. It just all become second nature to us after a while. So
Tim Freke: we both have these, it always seems it’s both. It’s not either, or it’s both. And we need unconscious competence, that ability to just let it flow is is the most attractive place to be. But sometimes to arrive there often to arrive there we go through conscious learning. And that’s where we use all the faculties which nature has given us, which are wonderful. And that’s what you see in growing up. And that’s what you see, as you carry on growing, I’ve actually right to the end, you’re constantly doing it. And I come back again to the fact that we’re speaking. And we just take that for granted as if it’s just happening. But it’s not just happening. It’s arrived, we’ve arrived at this ability to speak. And we’ve learned that ability to speak. And now it’s just happening.
Rick Archer: I interviewed Gary Weber last week, and you were on a conference with him at the you’re on a panel with him at the conference. Tim Yes. And you want to Gary’s big things is that he doesn’t think although he did acknowledge in the interview that Yeah, he does think it just not so much anymore. And I think one thing that happens is, you know, if we contrast, the blah, blah, type of thinking that the noise in the head that 10 radio stations at the same time, that is that most people’s experience with the silent, virtually thoughtless mind that we might shift to, after undergoing some sort of awakening, it seems that we’re not thinking at all and that everything is it’s just happening on its own, but there’s still thought it’s just much more subtle. Gary mentioned an impulsive energy or something like that. That’s a thought.
Tim Freke: Are we talking about conscious thought or uncle I mean, you know, there’s certain there’s certain brain that people studying the brain who think we’re having just a gigantic number of thoughts all the time, which a small number, become conscious is a very complicated issue. But obviously, in his experience, that’s what Gary’s saying. For me. It’s like thought, it’s it is to us, Lisa’s lovely phrase, imagination. And we were imagining speaking here, I’m speaking out loud. And then I learned to speak to myself in my head. Now speaking, is just speaking, it can be really good. Or it could be really, you know, I can talk rubbish, and I can talk rubbish to you or we can have a really interesting conversation. which I feel having that. And the same inside your head when you’re thinking, you know, you can talk rubbish to yourself, which is blah, blah, blah. And it can be worries and nonsense and that and that’s where the mind gets a bad press. Or you can think some of the beautiful thoughts which have led people to create wonderful poetry and works of art and music and science and work out things and reflect. And that’s a huge and beautiful thing. And it’s taken a great deal of human effort from our answers to arrive at and I honor them for it. And so becomes like, hey, you know, let’s, let’s thoughts great. If we think good things, all of these things have a place. But if they also have another side, because everything has that paradoxical nature.
Rick Archer: I think we were really onto something a minute ago when Lisa was talking about, or maybe I was putting words in her mouth, but she was acknowledging, she was acknowledging the the fact that there’s all this richness and diversity and interesting stuff, but it’s all contained within wholeness or oneness, if we want to call it that. And that’s the essence of all this diversity. It’s the diversity really is nothing other than that. And I think that completely concurs with the traditional orthodontic perspective. And I think it also concurs with the modern scientific perspective, you know, a physicist will tell you that all this apparent diversity is not what it appears to be it No, it really is Maya, in a sense, it’s that which is not. And if you boil it down to its essence, you find that it’s any thing that appears to be individuated, or diverse is actually all the same stuff. And I If correct me if I’m wrong, Lisa, but I think you’re kind of giving expression to that in in your own experience. Hmm. Yeah. That was easy. To get I’m a word, I’m using a lot of words, but some movement.
Lisa Cairns: And I think, like, what you guys were saying earlier, I have not forgotten actually, what you were saying was that at some point that came back, I forgot what it was.
Rick Archer: Ah, well, we were talking about the diversity within Unity are the sort of the dynamism within oneness within within silence. That’s another word we could throw in here is silence. There’s, you know, this deep palpable pervading silence, and yet it’s it’s dynamic, kind of, like currents within an ocean or something.
Lisa Cairns: Yeah, this is all just one big movements happening, and not happening at the same time.
Rick Archer: happening within itself.
Lisa Cairns: are not happening, or Yeah, you could say within itself, but there’s no outside of itself, either.
Rick Archer: True. So anything that is happening,
Tim Freke: I feel like, I feel like a guy who’s on this incredible boat speeding along, waves crashing and people getting hold on, let’s do that. And look at that. It’s amazing. And porpoises are diving out. And someone’s by my side going It’s just water. It’s just water. And it’s like, yeah, but come on.
Rick Archer: I’m reminded of the Gita for some reason, at this point where there’s this huge battle about to occur, and you know, 10s of 1000s of people are going to be killed. And Krishna just has a smile on his face, you know, like, and, you know, basically says, I’ve already killed them. It’s a done deal. There’s, there’s this sort of, you know, incredible, intense, diverse display of creation. And yet it’s all happening within this sort of playfulness of the Creator. It’s all, you know, I think I could. Anyway, enough said on that point, somebody chime in.
Tim Freke: Oh, Lisa, I’ll be lovely. I’d love to hear you. Ah,
Lisa Cairns: I missed what you last said. I’m sorry.
Rick Archer: Just that, you know, the universe is incredibly dynamic. There. You know, on the subatomic level, it’s dynamic. If we release the energy contained in a single atom, it’s this huge explosion on, you know, the galactic level, it’s dynamic there, black holes, quasars and things crashing into each other. And the whole thing is this vast, marvelous display of we could call it creative intelligence. And yet, it is just an appearance, the physicists will tell you that you can boil all that down to the unmanifest to sort of just a virtual nothingness or virtual reality. But But back but you can’t say that’s only it. And you can’t kind of rest on the understanding of that. A physicist can’t say, well, there’s really no gravity because at the quantum level, gravity hasn’t arisen and then go jumping off a building and expect to get away with it. I’m Tim,
Tim Freke: yeah, I think what you say is really important. The thing, which we see in science, which is amazing, is that we’ve been able to find this deep simplicity and that’s very similar to non duality. And then the mystery then becomes how is this individuation individuated complexity which has given us consciousness arisen from that nothing from that incredible simplicity. And, and yet it and even in a in a rising each time something new emerges, it’s more than the parts. This is a really interesting thing and it’s led to us who can now think about and reflect on these things. Now my feeling is that’s what that keeping that process is going is really important. Because so so for me, what I’m interested in is a an exploration of awakening, which is trans rational, not pre rational to use Ken Wilber is excellent phrase. See, I think if we go for the pre rational, which is going oh, rationality enough donor, were very similar to the trans rational, which is what I think the great mystics are talking about it and, and which sounds the same, but it’s not. It’s before rationality, the trans rational, and this is your guy, and you know, 707, who’s awake and able to fly, which, by the way, prove that I wasn’t enlightened, because I couldn’t possibly do that. But what it does is it goes look, the trans rational, has transcended rationality and found this deep state of being but contains the rational, or the transhuman, if you like, which contains the human, it hasn’t gone back before it, which is where we start as kids, it’s discovered that place we started kit as kids where we’re just like in the moment smiling, going, it’s just happening, it’s just happening. But we’ve got this as well, because we’ve gone through that on the evolutionary journey. So we were able to transcend and include what has gone for. So it’s non dual. And it’s dual. It’s not done by having to lose anything you just gain more.
Rick Archer: Any response to that, Lisa?
Lisa Cairns: No, this, this, um, this body? I’m not so, so heavy. And this stuff doesn’t keep this interest, not that you guys aren’t fascinating in your own right flips. I love like, I kind of begin to phase out. So I’m not I don’t mean to be rude.
Rick Archer: No, that’s okay. You know, as I was thinking that as Tim was talking, I was thinking to Lisa, all of this must sound so complicated. Yeah. Heavy, heavy, as you say, and, and unnecessarily intellectual and all that. But, you know, that’s just
Lisa Cairns: interest some people and I don’t know, there’s not a judgement of that. For some people. That’s really interesting. And that’s not a criticism. It’s just for this body mind mechanism. There’s more of an enjoyment in, in other things. Okay. So let’s,
Rick Archer: let’s completely legitimate. I mean, that’s the way Tim is wired. And I’m wired that way. It’s not meant to be a question or judgment as well. But we’re all kind of different expressions of that same totality, each with our own unique tendencies. And yours happened to me, you know, not so complicated. Really, you’re a simple person in a in a complimentary sense.
Lisa Cairns: It didn’t used to be that way. At least it used to be incredibly complicated. Oh, yeah. That like could not complicated in NACA, yeah. feeling a lot more concerned and more concerned about rather than mental stuff as in understanding things, it was more this energy of wanting love or wanting to get things from people or wanting approval. And that got very complicated or that game became very complicated in the visa story, trying to, to get love from people or get things from people, but not so much on the intellectual level more on
Rick Archer: emotional, yes, yeah. And now you’re just more fulfilled within your wish fulfilled, and not. So
Lisa Cairns: just that mechanism of feeling like it needs to constantly get things from people doesn’t
Rick Archer: write, doesn’t operate anymore. Tim, are you about to say?
Lisa Cairns: I say I do. I just say I play. I didn’t say any more. Because who knows what? We don’t know the future. We just know now.
Rick Archer: Yeah, you got me going for a PhD in neuroscience in a few years, for all we know. Yeah. There was an interesting interchange at this at the sand conference in California last fall, in which David Loy and loyal and vonlee gave a beautiful talk about spiritual ecology. And then later on, Francis Lucille got up and was started give his talk and David Lloyd got up to the mic and started pressing Francis Lucille about the ecological issues that, you know, confront the world. And Francis was like, doesn’t interest me, you know, and, and that’s not my concern. It’s not what I talk about or think about. And David law says, Well, you know, should be a concern. I mean, it should be all our concern. Can’t we bring spirituality to these more critical global issues and Francis was like, and the earth is like us. speck of dust in the big picture of things. And there was this interesting tussle that went back and forth for a while. And I’m just reading Whelan’s book now on spiritual ecology. And I guess the reason I’m bringing this up is just to introduce this issue of, does this simple, pure non dual realization have any larger utility? Aside from making our life more simple? And perhaps enjoyable? And and meaningful? Does it have some larger significance for the world? No. Okay. I thought you’re gonna say that. And Tim?
Tim Freke: Oh, I really hope so. Because to me, the thing which which is, you know, I mean, this is not missing in Lisa. at all, I can see it loud and clear. And Lisa and many other people who, who have developed the way of thinking about things that Lisa has that but the and, and the, the love, I wanted to talk about love, because love is the key, you know, at the end of the day, you know, where I do agree with Lisa completely is that eventually can just be Yeah, yeah. It’s all interesting. It’s fun, I enjoy it. But the place where I want to rest always is with love. And for me, love arises in my humanity, when I’m in touch with this deep oneness when I can connect as one, and many with the world and with each other. And so there’s a lovely line to mention the Gnostics earlier in the Gospel of Thomas, which I love. It’s a line which really struck me one day, when I read it, where it says, talking about the Gnosis, which is the waking up to the state that we’ve been talking about the non dual, the knowing the thing, you the one thing you know, and you don’t know anything else, and he can’t say what it is, it’s just what it is. The thing that Lisa is, is talking about, very well, it is, it says those who are free, because of Gnosis become slaves because of love. And that’s my experience is that as I wake up to this oneness, as I, as I see that there is a place where there is no Tim and no anyone. And it’s all happening. And it’s one, it’s arising, that recognition is arising through consciousness, which is individuated in this human being. And that when those both arise together, there is separateness and not separateness, and this is huge love, and that love is what makes me want to come back to the story. And that’s what that’s where I become a slave to love to bring love into life, and to, you know, bring love to the environment, the plan, life forms to life itself to each other, to heal the suffering, which is out there to cope with, you know, like right now my mom is next door, and she’s not well, she has cancer, and I love her. And I want to bring that to her. And that I want to be, I want to increase the love in the world, because that oneness arises this big, big love. And that’s what makes me so passionate about not resting with, it’s just, but coming back in. And it’s also so that we can bring that love, really dynamically into life. And that is to take a risk, it’s to take a risk that we will become human again, and we’ve just escaped it. And we may not want to come back to being human again. But actually, it’s safe. Once you know that you’re safe here, you can take the risk of being human again.
Rick Archer: They say where they say we’re in the sixth great extinction, archeologists have identified six, five previous ones. And this is the first one that’s manmade. And, you know, every day, entire species go extinct. And there’s all kinds of tremendous suffer suffering of both of animals and people all over the world because of the kind of environment because of the influence humans have had on the world. And one of the things you know, the wellons book is exploring is that this is all symptomatic of a very dualistic, materialistic mechanistic mentality that has dominated the world for a long time now and given us all kinds of powerful technologies without any kind of deeper moral or spiritual foundation. And that this the solution to all this is not just more technology in terms of like better solar panels and wind turbines and all that, but a spiritual awakening. And and so it because then it will really, you know, that that will go deep enough to actually cure the malaise that has given rise to all this mess that we’ve created in the world. So I say in that sense, that non duality, or spirituality does have practical significance, that would be a value for anybody who’s alive or for anybody who loves life or loves animals or loves people or anything else. So, you know, this whole notion that I heard in a dream bus movie, one of the speakers, I think it might have been Tony Parsons, just saying it doesn’t really matter what happens to the world because it’s all an illusion. Yeah, on some level that’s true, but Do we really feel that? I mean, if your child gets hit by a bus, does that matter? Sure you care about that, if you’re watching an animal being tortured, sorry to be graphic. Yeah, I mean, if you have a heart, you care about that. So you don’t brush it off as illusion. And yet this stuff is happening on a global scale. And I think that, you know, we’re, this sort of non dual community is a very small and relatively unknown thing. But I think it’s a powerful force for transformation. And in the world, which really will mean something to all of us losery though we may ultimately be
Lisa Cairns: I am. I don’t see them, the way I see is I don’t see love as ours. I see. When the love is yours, it’s then all conditioned love. It’s then all trying to get something from someone or trying to give that love to someone. Love is what is love is the essence of everything. And so it’s not that helping the dog or bringing rescuing a dog from Thailand, I just rescued a dog from Thailand, him, I think I told Rick doesn’t happen. It’s not that those things don’t happen. But it’s not my love. It wasn’t that I decided to do that. It’s that life, put in that play, it wrote in that momentum. But because life is in opposites, there’s always going to be disconnected. decay. And disrupt destruction is part of what happens in this. And so there’s always going to be, there’s never going to be a peaceful world. In that sense, because the way in which life is set up is from one form to change to another form continuously, one form, I mean, it’s happening, and it’s not happening. So you could say there’s a side where it’s not really changing or moving. But in one way there is movement happening. And in that movement, it’s always one form is changing to another form. And as soon as one form becomes its most beautiful, it then begins to decay and be destroyed, and become into another form. So there’s never going to be peace in the flow of life, there’s never going to be this peaceful idea that people are longing for. That the that piece is an illusion that’s all about mental concepts of how we’d like it to look like it is what it is. And the love is the end of the resistance to what it is. And that doesn’t mean that helping the bringing the dog back to England doesn’t happen. But it’s not mine. I’m not compassionate. I’m not claiming any of that. That to me is the arrogance is the mistake. It’s just something that happens. And it also works the other way around. If you’re the murderer or the pedophile. If that’s the character that’s played out the murderer or the pedophile, then that also doesn’t belong to them, doesn’t belong to someone. It’s just what’s happening. So I just I see love as completely impersonal. When love is personalized, then it’s What can I get from that person? How can I give them my love? Or how can I get love from another? When it’s not personal, then love is everything. And everything? Yes, is constantly changing into different forms. So there’s always destruction happening as well as growth. But it’s not personal. When it’s personalized, then the suffering begins.
Tim Freke: I might say that tastic bit of philosophy, they’re really beautifully put. I really did lovely. And I agree with you completely. I think that’s right, only half the story, of course. But it’s absolutely right. I also love my child. And it’s my child. And I really love her and I love all children, because there is a there is a there’s a love, which is for everything and everyone and that’s the that’s the big love. That’s the state of being and you’re right, it’s when you see the world is just love vibrating. And then individually it’s and then there’s, and it’s not a bad thing. It’s not a horrible love my love for my child. It’s a beautiful love is a beautiful love as well. It’s that particular color,
Lisa Cairns: everything everything is that love that I just this, I think, well, it’s not I think that that can be and who knows, I don’t know what Tim and record talking about. Ultimately, it’s it’s the sounds coming out I can’t say you’re talking like me, or we’re coming from the same perspective, that’s not known. But it doesn’t have to belong to someone and yet functioning or appearances can carry on happening. But it doesn’t it doesn’t mean that it’s wrong if it does appear that it belongs to someone. Or right that’s just another appearance happening. But I don’t think that can ever be back to the subject that what it’s impossible for there to be peace on earth. Well,
Tim Freke: you know, you’re you’re probably right. And it’s always gonna change and I don’t Yeah, but you’re certain some
Lisa Cairns: food and some some kind of once the forms to stay same. So maybe in Tim there’ll be a wanting for this to the child to stay in that form. But it’s always gonna change eventually.
Tim Freke: Yes, you’re right. And then you rot. And yeah, also, you know, because if there has been an evolutionary change, as well now all forms do turn each other you know, and when seeing that happen with my mom right now. And what my daughter growing into a form and blossoming like a flower, and my mom is wilting. And and there’s
Lisa Cairns: And how can we possibly say what’s a better form?
Tim Freke: Oh, I don’t know that we need to.
Lisa Cairns: That’s the whole, that’s the whole momentum behind saving the planet is the best form. And this is what it should look like. We don’t know. We just know what it is. That doesn’t mean that the body mind mechanisms, each don’t do certain things like rescuing a dog or some other ones might do murdering but better or worse is indistinguishable. We can’t name that. We just know what happens just in the what is happening and appearing.
Tim Freke: Yeah. Yeah. It’s a very, it’s a I think you end up in a very, I mean, not you will, I can’t say that because you’re not you’re not there. So I will be wrong to say in this conversation, that it worries me that’s that presents perspective, I would if we were in if I were
Lisa Cairns: any worries, you can only worry you if you if there’s a sense that you are separate from oneness,
Tim Freke: but there is an individual and this being a part of the fact that I am life conscious of itself. And my engagement with it, as the one conscious as someone is what this is, I am the one conscious of someone engaging creatively, I am the very creative force. And part of that creativity is to come up through this individuality as this consciously separate individual to think because that’s what human beings do, to feel to connect to care, to enter into the great drama of life, which is unfolding, as the one arising as someone to bring that knowledge into the drama and to move on.
Lisa Cairns: And then the action is Tim’s it
Tim Freke: will depends where you stand. If you stand back far enough, there’s no 10. So there’s no one to be, you know, to do anything. If you come right into it, then most certainly is. And that’s where we can play a separate, and I can’t prejudice one over the other because they’re both true. That’s like going, you think there’s a wave? Surely, how could you say that? It’s just ocean? Well, it’s both. It’s clearly both. And let’s and that’s what’s so beautiful to engage? Well, and why I say it worries me is when I come into the individuated story, as Tim and I hear this, you know, I see this amazing woman saying these amazing things articulating this one side of it so well. It feels to me that the conclusions, the quietest conclusion that it arrives at, if it hasn’t got both, is actually and can it you know, it doesn’t matter that it is but it can undercut the very thing which life is the one is doing, which is arising as separate individuals to be conscious to be creative, to engage. And that it to me is the is the is the symphony of life. And we get to we get to sing a short verse, And how wonderful that is.
Rick Archer: There, you know their cycles in life. And obviously, we’re not in the middle of World War Two right now pot, the Pol Pot regime is not doing its thing. You know, Stalin is not in the middle of killing 20 million people. There, there are cycles, and some things things are better. And sometimes things are worse. But theoretically, I mean, if go to the Hindu perspective, to go on all that there could be an age and has been an age where things are really rosy and it’s a it’s a lovely world to live in. And so as you say, at least, I mean, one thing changes to the next and but we may be in the upswing right now towards a more wholesome world in which which is just more enjoyable for people to live in. I’ll tell you a story, you know,
Lisa Cairns: that always case always gonna rot. So I’ve actually,
Rick Archer: eventually, I mean, eventually this planet isn’t going to be here, eventually our son is going to expand and engulf it, you know, so there are cycles and, you know, TO EVERYTHING there is a season. But um, you know, you probably heard of the hugging saint, and I saw a couple times this summer. So I’m reminded of the story, but she in addition to having hugged 32 million people over the last so many years and doing that many, many hours a day and having that be really moving experience for those individuals in her spare time. You know, she’s built all these hospitals and schools and orphanages and working on farmer suicides and building houses for tsunami victims and on and on and on a big long list. And and yet she you know, she knows a thing or two about non duality, I mean, I’m quite sure she’s established and seeing the world as one and and seeing everything as one, and so on. And in fact, one time one of her Swami said to her, Well, what more can we do for the world? And she said, What world you know. So she’s got that, but at the same time, he’s you see somebody like that, who is just drenched in the knowingness of the non dual reality of life, exerting every iota of energy and strength to improve the world. That seems very paradoxical. But it also seems to be the way it has gone throughout history for you know, highly realized beings to overflow. You know, my cup runneth over to to naturally rise in waves of compassion and to devote their their lives to bettering the world
Lisa Cairns: I don’t see compassion as bettering the world, that’s all
Rick Archer: so it doesn’t better the world For tsunami victims to have a home or for, you know, for young girls to be saved from prostitution in the slums of Calcutta, or any of those things, that’s not a betterment of their of their lives, or at least their little corner of the world.
Lisa Cairns: It’s a nice, it’s nicer than them having to be a prostitute or being starving or starving to death on the street.
Rick Archer: So it’s better.
Lisa Cairns: It’s, it’s not that all things come in opposites.
Rick Archer: Yeah. And we tend to prefer
Lisa Cairns: the comes in wherever is the most beautiful will also rot and be destroyed as well. And that’s the nature of this world. All forms eat each other. We’re predators, like dogs are predators. I’m a big lover of dogs and dogs are such vicious killers. They’re the most successful pack animal they can take down massive buffaloes. Yeah, that’s the nature of this. All forms change. And then the dynamic, the personal dynamic is always trying to make it permanent and safe, and fix it. So it’s not scary. I’m not saying don’t do nice things. I’m saying that there is no one separate from life itself. There is no one that’s doing that good action, there is no one doing a bad action. There’s just action happening. And whatever it’s labeled as isn’t truth. It’s a tiny little label in language. It’s a tiny little label in language that saying it’s better. That’s a tiny, tiny little perspective. It’s not known. This is all mystery. It’s not known. I’m not saying that. What this body my mechanism would or wouldn’t do in certain situations. Who knows what it would do that what I’m talking about is the end of defining someone as a good person, someone is a bad person. One action is a right action, one action of the wrong action. One act of action is a better action one action is a worse action. That’s not known.
Rick Archer: You believe in hot and cold. Sorry, do you believe in hot and cold?
Lisa Cairns: I don’t believe there’s
Rick Archer: There’s no hot or cold. Ice Ice is the same as your stove.
Lisa Cairns: So there’s just sensation happening. And if the hand is burnt, more than likely the hand will move away from being burnt. But this is language and ultimately, something isn’t called Something isn’t quite, that’s just a language which thing put onto it. The dogs not labeling it as hot or cold. And yet, it’s still like there’s still experience happening.
Rick Archer: I totally agree. I mean, there’s a level on which there is no hot or cold there is no you know, fast or slow, big or small, you know, older young, all those dualities are ultimately,
Lisa Cairns: yeah, dynamics always gonna try and run to the peaceful experience and the peaceful world and it will never ever get there. It’s like a hamster in a wheel. It is desirable
Rick Archer: pendency of life, it’s a natural tendency to move toward greater happiness, greater greater enjoyment, greater fulfillment, one doesn’t choose to put one hand on a hot stove because it’s unfulfilling.
Lisa Cairns: Just as because that’s what happens.
Rick Archer: You have any thoughts on that? All that? Tim?
Tim Freke: I’m just really intrigued by how we’ve gone round in big circles with this. Yes, it is all mystery, you know, the irony is just about everything which Lisa was saying you could read in my, my many of my books, and and almost you know, like, so there is such a strong resonance. But as well, there is the opposite. Because as Lisa herself said, everything comes in opposites. So everything is separate and not separate. Everything is one and many. Everything has is distinguishable and indistinguishable. Depending on where you stand. Now you can choose to try and stand just in one place. Whether you can actually do that or just claim you’re doing that I hold open because I genuinely don’t know. And meeting Ramesh bounce a car who I know was a big influence on Lisa to I believe, you know, it was a wonderful experience because it was somebody who could articulate I mean, great philosopher, amazing philosopher could articulate this, that perspective. But ultimately, I remember sitting with Ramesh and it was at the time I didn’t pick up on it, but it troubled me and I could feel it. That’s somebody a woman said it was had come with her husband’s ashes. She come to put in the Ganges from your and he remember His attitude was you know, well, there’s nobody there and it doesn’t matter. And and then somebody at the back said what about love. And there was about five of us there was a very long time ago. And and Ramesh said Love is the opposite of hate. And something went, Oh, yeah, I get all of that. But I want to go up to that woman and go, you know, tell me about your husband and how was it and just and just find that personal connection as well. And that is what has happened to me after that was that from from that huge revelation which lasted for a number of years. And a lot of stuff which I wrote at that time, this journey back into the personal so that I agree with everything that the fundamentalist as I would call it a reductionist is best reduction is non dualists, say, but it’s reductionist and just as I understand what the reduction is scientists say, but it’s reductionist. And what it’s missing out is the bit in between, they both go to the it’s just one, either in the physical object, or in the spiritual subject. It’s just one. And it is one. And this is why they sit together so well, actually, because they’re both reductionist. What they lose is the place where we started in the middle, where all the colors are and where everything is in this individuation process in time. So that that gets lost. And yeah, that to me, and it doesn’t have to be to everyone is really precious, which is why I do care about the planet. I do want to engage with the drama, even though it does hurt. I do want to engage, make it a better world for my children, even though I don’t expect to ever see a perfect world and may not even see a better one. I do want to make all of those commitments. And I would love it if more of us did.
Rick Archer: I think one thing we can conclude from all this is it’s going to be an interesting conference. Yeah, yeah. Is Miss Darshan for us as mustache? He’s gonna wear it to the conference. So Boris, can you give us like a little bit some details about when and where this conference is going to be? And what people can do. Oh, your mustache. Just
Boris Jansch: really? Can I Can I just have my turn and the loo break, please? Just 30 seconds. I’ll be back. Well, we’re
Rick Archer: just about done. We’re done with this interview. So can you just tell us about the conference? And then we’ll we’ll wrap it up.
Boris Jansch: Alright, great. Well, first of all, thank you ever so much. That’s brilliant. Let me just cut to Lisa quickly. That’s what that was, like. In terms of a conversation. It was like the perfect curve. You know, when you watch a film, yeah, the entertainment curve, and it was just brilliant. I really enjoyed it. The conference, I just say, it’s 30 weekend of the 31st of August and the first of September bank holiday weekend. So please come along. If you want to become enlightened, oh, there goes a flying pig. If you but you know everyone, lots of people who are going to be coming have a sincere search a yearning to find the answers. And I really think it’s a it’s it’s the right place to come. If you if you are doing that. And we’ve got some fantastic 10 fantastic speakers. So come along, please.
Rick Archer: Great. And there’s a website, right where people can find out about this and sign up. And so there’s a website.
Boris Jansch: Yeah, Dream bus live.com. Okay, and we’ve got some videos on there with all of the speakers, and all of the information is there and the booking information. So you can you can book your tickets and and we’ll see you there, hopefully.
Rick Archer: Okay, and so let me make a couple of quick wrap up points. I will be putting all this on batgap.com, which, and I’ll be linking to the conference and linking to Tim’s and Lisa’s websites and all that, as usual. And a few other things you’ll find there. I know. Boris is desperate to go to the bathroom, but bear with me for a second. You can there’s a lot of other interviews on BatGap COMM which you’ll find categorized alphabetically and chronologically. There’s a place to make a donation, there’s a place to sign up for an email newsletter, there’s a discussion group, all kinds of stuff. So feel free to go there. There’s also an audio podcast. So that’s it for now. I have another interview this morning, which will be both more and less serious than this one. So thanks, guys. It’s been a lot of fun. Yeah. Thanks for listening or watching.
Tim Freke: It’s been really it’s been really great to take part in this. Thanks, Lisa for being so playful. Yeah. Alright, see you all. Hi.