Joel Rumbolo Interview

Summary:

Rick: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer and my guest this week is Joel Rumbolo. Is that the correct pronunciation, Rumbolo?

Joel: Well, the real Italian way is Rumbolo.

Rick: Oh, forget it. Well, I can do that. Rumbolo, alright.

Joel: Rumbolo.

Rick: Good. Joel lives in northwestern New Jersey and we will let him fill in a little bit of his bio info. There is a sort of amusing thing which happened this week. I got some feedback from a friend who is a regular follower of the show. He said, “Hey, what’s going on? You started this out as being interviews with ordinary awakened people, but lately you have been interviewing all these people who write books and have students and have websites and all that stuff. So, what happened to the ordinary bit?” So, I think we have to first ascertain that you are ordinary before we can proceed, alright?

Joel: Certainly ordinary.

Rick: So, you love your mother, right?

Joel: Yeah, sure.

Rick: You like apple pie?

Joel: Very much so.

Rick: Good.

Joel: I prefer cherry.

Rick: Okay, you prefer cherry. That would be probably my preference. And you like baseball, right?

Joel: Yankees.

Rick: Yankees, all the way. And your body probably performs all the same ordinary functions that the rest of our bodies do, right?

Joel: Absolutely.

Rick: Alright.

Joel: I have a website and I am not promoting anything.

Rick: Good. So, you pass.

Joel: There you go.

Rick: You are ordinary.

Joel: I agree with your friend. I enjoy more when it is just ordinary people, because they can talk about the practical things and not get into a philosophical discussion.

Rick: Yeah.

Joel: That is what is important.

Rick: In fact, sometimes – not always – but sometimes actually, people who are professional teachers are reluctant to talk about themselves or their own experience. They just want to give out a teaching. And what I try to do – and I will certainly be interviewing more – is just say, “Well, okay, how did you come up with this idea?” From your own experience, if you are giving out a philosophical or spiritual principle, how does that relate to your experience such that you can be saying that with authority? People who are not in the habit of teaching tend to do that anyway because that is all they really have to talk about, although we can all go off on flights of fancy, but there is more of a tendency to speak from your direct experience.

Joel: Exactly, exactly right. Yeah, that is true.

Rick: Okay, so you know how these interviews go. We usually trace the history of a person’s spiritual journey in this life and what first inspired them to start thinking or talking about this kind of stuff, and how did it go?

Joel: Well, it is an interesting thing. This week now – well, I think we talked Monday, so, it is very hard, I won’t be able to get a direct, perfect timeline anymore because I just cannot do it.

Rick: That is all right.

Joel: I’m 64 and that is part of the problem. But to start it out, I guess I have to say, when I was a child, I had a fleeting glimpse. Every night when I would go to sleep, I would sleep in this bliss, have this very expanded awareness. At the time, I thought this was normal.

Rick: So, as a child, four, five, six years old, like that?

Joel: As long as I can remember. And I guess as I became an adult, that went away because you get married, family, stuff like that.

Rick: Would it happen to you just as you were drifting off or would you actually somehow be experiencing bliss throughout the night?

Joel: I can’t remember if it was bliss throughout the night, but I know, what I would do, I would lie down, I would close my eyes and I would become very expanded and blissful. And it was a very pleasant experience. So that was the beginning of it and I had no idea about spirituality or anything like that. And as I said, you get into life, you just do what’s going on. And I went into the Army in 1969, where I was trained as a combat photographer. I never got to do any of that, combat photography, but I was stationed at NORAD.

Rick: Where?

Joel: NORAD in Colorado Springs. The war room in Cheyenne Mountain. And I was basically a PR photographer. I got to photograph many, many celebrities. And one celebrity whom I got to photograph was General Westmoreland. And the same thing happened, only in the waking state. I just went into this silence, witnessing. Now I can talk about it in those terms.

Rick: Yeah.

Joel: At that time, it was just, “Oh, wow!”

Rick: You mean, in the process of photographing General Westmoreland that happened to you?

Joel: Yeah.

Rick: Just out of the blue, unexpectedly, this happened.

Joel: Right, exactly. You know, I had two four-star generals in front of me, so maybe it was one of those things like when you have an accident and everything slows down. It’s probably the same kind of thing going on in my nervous system. I remember that very vividly and all the photographs came out perfectly. It just went on by itself for a few minutes and then came back to normal experience. So, when I left the Army, I opened a photography studio. Now I was 23 years old, I had never done any drugs before, I didn’t really drink a lot of alcohol or anything, but for the first time, I got into marijuana and I think I stayed stoned for a whole year.

Rick: Not from one joint, but from smoking every day, you mean?

Joel: Every day, every chance I had. Finally, I got the feeling this wasn’t where I wanted to be.

Rick: Did you have any noteworthy experiences on marijuana?

Joel: Not really.

Rick: It didn’t induce that expansion experience or anything?

Joel: Exactly. I mean, sure, you feel that. You are blissful, but there are so many side effects. I mean, being broke and stuff like that.

Rick: Right, eating a lot of donuts.

Joel: So, I decided that was not a good idea. And I decided I was going to try yoga. So, I bought this little book on Hatha Yoga and in it is a little skinny Indian guy doing all these poses and stuff, which at the time I was able to do, more or less. I mean, it wasn’t perfect. And in the back of the book were a few suggestions about meditation. One was staring at a candle. And I found that I was very successful with that. I could stare at a candle and immediately step back into a witnessing mode. And if I laid down after some of the asanas, I found that I would slip back into that. So, I said, “Well, this is better than marijuana. Maybe I’m going to go on with this.” And the funny thing was, I decided to go to a woman who was teaching at a local high school. I walked in, I had my big ‘stash, I had my granny glasses. I was a professional photographer.

Rick: She was teaching what, yoga?

Joel: Hatha yoga. And she looked at me and immediately said, “Yoga is not for drug addicts.” I mean, she said this. This was perfect because, all right, I got up, I walked out, and on the door of the high school as I’m walking out was a picture of Maharishi saying, “Introductory lecture tomorrow.” So, I said to my wife, “Let’s go to this.” And that was the start of the spiritual path for me. I guess I started the next week. I had, well, I think, I forget how many days you weren’t supposed to smoke or anything.

Rick: Fourteen.

Joel: Fourteen. I waited. I did it correctly. So, I started in New Jersey with a very nice teacher, Jim Hanlon. This was 1972 in May. It was a spectacular experience.

Rick: Tell me about it.

Joel: Okay. What happened was, after the initial initiation, sitting down, you go through that first period, and then going out, you are going to meditate for a certain amount of time.

Rick: Let me just clarify that. So, when you learn TM, there is an initiation ceremony, and during that ceremony you do several little brief meditations, and then once the teacher feels that you sort of have the hang of it, you go into the next room and meditate on your own for a longer period. So that is what you did.

Joel: Right. Exactly. I didn’t have to go to the next room. He left the room. As soon as he left the room, I continued doing the process. What happened was, all the breath left my body. I thought it was sucked out, but after thinking about it, I realized I was just so relaxed. My body just went into this total relaxation. Since the peripheral muscles aren’t expanding the lungs, the air just leaves. And the next thing I know was a knock on the door, which was 20 minutes or 15 minutes, I don’t remember, and it was just so beautiful. I came downstairs, and I’m looking at him, and he gives me the questionnaire, and there was no place to put this stuff. I did not know what to say, and I kind of left it that way. So, I went through the three-day checking and all that, but I knew from then on, I was going to be dedicated to this. Of course, I became a teacher within six, seven months.

Rick: How did you feel after that first meditation? You just felt really smooth and relaxed?

Joel: Smooth, very relaxed. I did not feel expanded, but what I did notice, and this gets back to that idea of practicality, was there were so many little things that would bother me that were totally gone. I mean, the attitude changed. I would say stuff to my wife, or she would say something to me, and, “Ah, it doesn’t matter.” We said that. We would call each other on the phone. “This doesn’t matter anymore.” All these different things just kind of dissolved. So, I mean, what more do you want? I mean, you are doing this for your life.

Rick: Right.

Joel: Yeah, so about six months later, maybe seven, eight months, I forget what it took, but I wound up in Vittel, France on a teacher training course and came back and worked in New Jersey at the Edison Center until, I guess, around 1976 or so.

Rick: Right. I can’t remember. In fact, I had a car accident in Edison in 1976. I was there for the summer with a bunch of guys, including the famous Johnny Gray. We were teaching in the state, and because there was this court case that was going on, which was challenging the teaching of TM in the schools, I had an appointment with the mayor of New Brunswick. I was racing along, trying to get to this appointment, and on the passenger seat, I had my breakfast, which was yogurt and fruit and all this stuff, cottage cheese or something. I was going right past the Edison post office in a little Subaru compact, when this guy in a great big boat of a car pulled directly in front of me. As soon as he saw me coming, he slammed on his brakes and sat there. I was going a little bit fast, and I just broadsided him. The car was totaled, and my breakfast flew all over the dashboard. But it was early in the morning. I missed that appointment, but I had appointments scheduled until 11 o’clock at night. The last thing was a radio interview at 11 o’clock that night. I just went through the whole day, continuing to do this stuff, even though I was limping because I had hurt my foot. I bent the brake pedal totally to the floor. Anyway, that was my Edison experience, and now I’ll get back to you.

Joel: It was a great center, but that was towards the end of the Merv wave. We had opened two centers, actually, and we were thinking about a third.

Rick: Let me tell them what the Merv wave was. The Merv wave was this thing where Maharishi Mahesh Yogi went on the Merv Griffin show three times, actually. Each time he did, there was a huge upsurge in interest in TM, and people were lined up around the block. Then it would taper off again. The TM movement would open all these centers, and then when it tapered off, they could not afford to keep them open.

Joel: Right. That is exactly what happened. It was time for me to get a job because we were making $25 a month at the time, and it was a little rough, and I had a baby on the way. I started to work, and a friend of mine in California called, and he said, “Look, the icing on the cake is coming up. You’ve got to go to the six-month course.” I said, “I don’t know.” He said, “Well, how are your ATR credits?” Those were credits we would get from the movement, as you know, to go to Europe or to be with Maharishi for a while.

Rick: Yeah. Let me just explain that. I’m just trying to fill in the gaps for people who don’t know anything about TM. If you taught a certain number of people, you would get credits, which would accumulate in a fund, and it would pay for your airfare and your course fee to go over to Europe for these courses with Maharishi. So, ATR stood for Advanced Training Resources or something like that.

Joel: Exactly.

Rick: All right. Go ahead.

Joel: Luckily, I had enough ATR, so the whole course was free. All I had to do was pay the airfare. So I went, and it was spectacular. I guess within the second week, I had ordered a set of rudraksha beads from Press Fuel, and they finally came. I opened the box, and immediately I started witnessing again.

Rick: Huh.

Joel: It was really heavy, and it stayed that way through the whole course.

Rick: Why don’t you define witnessing?

Joel: What happens is you step back. There is a shift in perception or, I guess the best way to say it is a shift in your point of view. So, you feel there is an outside and there is an inside, and the inside is still and quiet, and the outside is still this jumble of things going on. And you are just watching. You step back from your normal position, your normal perception, and you are just kind of watching what is going on.

Rick: Right. And it is not a volitional stepping back. It is not as if you are saying to yourself, “Okay, I am going to step back now and watch what is going on.” It is more as if there is a shift, and rather than identifying with the little me, which is running around doing things, there is a greater identification with that silence. Right? Is that correct to say?

Joel: Yeah, exactly. You are very aware of the stillness and the silence within. At that stage though, I feel I was not really identified with it. There was still a me out there, but I was watching that “me.”

Rick: So, there was a “me” someplace, and the “me” was aware of this “little Joel” doing his thing, and the “me” was also aware of the silence, but then there was also a me.

Joel: Exactly. Exactly. So, after the course, we came back, I think it was right before Thanksgiving. That was the year that Elvis died, and the Yankees swept the Dodgers in four games. That was wonderful. [Laughter] I came back, and this lasted for a good three years.

Rick: The witnessing.

Joel: The witnessing.

Rick: Yeah.

Joel: In fact, and I cannot remember the timeline, but there was a call from the movement. They basically said, “We want you to come up to Livingston Manor and tell us what is going on with you. You are not active in the movement anymore. What is going on?”

Rick: You specifically, or were they calling all the teachers who were not active?

Joel: There were maybe about 30, 40 guys up there at that time.

Rick: Let me also ask you, this witnessing that was going on for three years, was it 24/7 or even during sleep, or did it sort of fade in and out?

Joel: It was not during sleep, like that. It was not during sleep, and there was still a me, there was still an ego, and I was very attached to thoughts even though I was watching these thoughts. It was a whole different quality than what is going on right now.

Rick: Okay, we will get to what is going on now.

Joel: Yeah, exactly. So anyway, yeah, I met one-to-one with this fellow, and he said to me, “How come you’re not active anymore?” I said, “Well, I have a child. I really have to make a living. I do teach once in a while if people ask,” which I did. I said to him, “I feel so fulfilled right now. I really don’t need a residence course. I really feel complete,” which was wrong. I was not complete at all, but it was a very nice three years.

Rick: Yeah.

Joel: I went through a period, I don’t know exactly how long it was. As I said, I lost the timeline, but I would say it was anywhere from 8 to 12 years, where I would have to actually notice. I would have to remember the witnessing. It was not there all the time, 24/7 or anything.

Rick: Otherwise, you were just tied up in your life doing your thing and forgot all about it.

Joel: Totally forgot about it.

Rick: You were still meditating, right?

Joel: Oh, absolutely, yeah. Maybe I would look at my hands, and all of a sudden, I would notice that I am witnessing my movements. Whatever it took, it would come back now and then, and I would have to actively initiate that looking, that noticing. Okay. So, around 1999, the same friend who talked me into going to the six-month course gave me a call, and he said, “I want you to look at this website.”

Rick: Who is this guy? Is this somebody I know, this friend who keeps telling you these things?

Joel: I don’t know. Do you know Ben Ingram?

Rick: Yeah. He was in the New Jersey area, wasn’t he, for a while?

Joel: Absolutely. He taught at our center. Yeah. Ben lives in California now, and he is working for Corbell as a financial advisor. But anyway, so he said, “Check out the Douglas Harding website,” and he said something about headless.

Rick: Right.

Joel: Now, about three weeks before Ben contacted me, I started to get back into this witnessing. It was just spontaneous, and it was heavier and heavier. I just noticed that it was there more and more. Anyway, I recognized headless right away. I mean, just the word was enough to bring on that experience again. So, I contacted Ben. He said, “Well, you have been doing TM for all these years, and you really should check out some advaita vedanta teachers.” And I was very, very hesitant because I was so dedicated to TM and Maharishi and I felt, I don’t need anything else. TM can do it. So I went on the website, and the next teacher was coming through, was this young Polish woman. Her name was Neelam. So I went to New York City.

Rick: What year is this now you’re talking about?

Joel: I’m sorry?

Rick: What year are you talking about now?

Joel: Around 1999 or 2000.

Rick: Okay, good.

Joel: I brought another friend with me, another TM teacher from the Edison Center. We sat down and immediately went into this really, really deep silence. She came out of the bedroom, sat down in front of us as teachers do. And we kind of locked eyes, and there was nothing going on with me. I mean, the world kind of dropped away. I could still see, but I was just in this total silence. And she was looking at me, and she was kind of nodding her head. I’m figuring, well, maybe she knows what is going on, you know. So, the first thing she does is ask, “Are there any questions?” And she was staring at me. She was not going to take a question from anybody else. She was staring at me. And after a long period, because I did not want to ask, I stood up and I said, “There is so much silence right now, but I would like to know if the mind is ever going to come back again.” And she started to giggle. And she said, “Well, it really depends.” I mean, she did not give me an answer. And somehow, I had the concept that if I was enlightened, I was never going to think again. I was just going to be in silence all the time.

Rick: Without thoughts.

Joel: Without thoughts.

Rick: Where did you get that idea? Maharishi never said that.

Joel: No, he certainly did not. You know?

Rick: It was some idea you had gotten onto.

Joel: Some idea I had gotten. Anyway, I think it was from Papaji, actually. You know, he always said there is this silence. Just stop thinking, stop thinking. Whatever. It was a mistake, which, you know, I am prone to anyway. It was beautiful. I hung out with Neelam for a couple of years, and I finally decided that all I am doing is trading Maharishi’s concepts and other concepts for Neelam’s concepts. And I decided it is time to just drop all the teachers and see what is going on with me.

Rick: Right.

Joel: And during this time, Ben and I were writing emails, a lot of emails each day. He would read something. I would read something. He would experience something, I would experience something. So, we were talking about it a lot, and we had this beautiful two-year conversation just about our experiences. And eventually, all this became very permanent. And one day this heavy silence was with me, but the mind was still rolling along. I mean, it was really heavy. I think, what happens is the mind wants to own this experience. And so, I was experiencing the silence and the stillness and the beautiful peace, but the mind was still trying to grasp and grip. And it can become uncomfortable. I was staring at a tree out in the backyard, and all of a sudden, I heard this voice say, “You are never going to understand this. Let it go.” And when I did, the mind became quite quiet. Not that thinking had stopped, but there was another shift at that time, and that shift was important. That was the shift from witnessing to actually realizing that I am this stillness and silence. And at that moment, there was also the recognition that the personal part of me had faded away. When I say personal, those are words that really don’t touch the experience, but the feeling of “me,” and I think it is because my mind, the thinking, where I exist, the small “I” which exists in the thinking, decided it was not going to do it anymore. And that is when everything became more or less 24/7. I can’t remember exactly what year it was. Maybe 2002. I don’t know exactly. Now the changes that happened aren’t on that side of the equation. The changes are in the perception of how this mind-body actually reacts to life, and how it goes through life, and how life flows through what I am now, this non-person, entity, whatever you want to call it.

Rick: Let’s step back a little bit now, and let’s explore this in greater detail. So, you had this shift when you were looking at the tree, and you say that the mind, everything became much more silent than it already had been, and you finally shifted to a really primary identification with that silence, or that vastness, or that emptiness as being what you are, rather than being some individual. There was no individual little guy looking at that silence, and looking at your individuality. In other words, you really had gone to the other pole of the spectrum, and you were established in that silence as the Self, as what you are. And yet to the observer, you would still appear to be the same person you always had been. It would look as though there were a person there who likes baseball, and who is a photographer, and who has kids, and who does this and who does that. I think it is a thing that comes up often, and it is very puzzling for people. First of all, it is a little bit disturbing or frightening for people, because they think, “Well, I do not want to just become a nobody. I do not want to lose myself, or lose what makes me special. I do not want to have my personality sucked out by cosmic vampires or anything.” So, there is a sort of concern about it, and there is also a perplexity about it, because for all appearances, you are a person. You do have likes and dislikes and stuff. There does seem to be somebody home. So perhaps you could elaborate on those thoughts.

Joel: Sure. Well, you know, it is a real paradox, and it is not even an experience. Unless that shift occurs, you really, really cannot understand it, because you are trying to understand it with the mind. Once that shift occurs, it is just so self-evident, that this is the way it is, and this is who I am. Even those words, “I am,” do not work now. Again, for me, it is the beautiful part of this whole thing. One other statement I would like to make, is that this is not what I expected. It is just not what I expected.

Rick: In other words, your concepts, either through Maharishi or through Neelam, were just inadequate. They didn’t quite grasp what it ended up actually being.

Joel: Exactly. Exactly right. And again, that was the point where I did not have that deeper understanding, that deeper experience, that deeper shift, if you want to call it. The mind was still going on, and there was a person watching the mind, and there was a person worshipping this beautiful silence and stillness. And until that changed, until that became “I am that silence and stillness,” I could not understand it. I mean, you can read, you can do all these things, it just doesn’t matter. It is just a matter of when that shift happens.

Rick: So, when you had that experience, looking at the tree, and that shift happened, what did you do right then? Did you go back in the house and say, “Holy crap, honey, I just got enlightened,” or what?

Joel: Well, I did write Benny. I said, “There is a new shift that just happened,” but no, I did not say anything. I love Jim Flanagan and his comments. Before, it’s chopping wood and carrying water, and afterwards, it’s chopping wood and carrying water.

Rick: He didn’t make that up, by the way.

Joel: No, I know, that is the bad thing, but still. It’s just the way it is. But you are not hooked anymore. You are not hooked. And to say you don’t believe thoughts, what I think is the best way to describe it, there is a peace that is indescribable.

Rick: That surpasseth all understanding.

Joel: Yeah, there is no way to explain it. Maharishi used to say it is the feeling that mother is at home. I mean, there is this peace. So, if an incident happens, whether you feel a little angry or you are surprised about something, or whatever it might be, that hook of identity is not there anymore.

Rick: So, let’s say you have a fender bender. You are sitting at a light, somebody bangs into you and dents your fender, and you get out, and he is all flustered. So how would that experience be for you?

Joel: Well, I haven’t had one in a while, but I will tell you, just a couple days ago, somebody turned right in front of me, and there was this shock of that happening. But what happens is it dissipates immediately.

Rick: Like a line on water.

Joel: Yeah, like a line on water. It is there for a second as you are following the finger, because there is a wake, but it just folds into itself. And that is the way all experience is, whether it is thoughts, whether it is emotions, whether it is what you see. I mean, everything is changing constantly. There is nothing out here that you can grab onto and say, “It’s going to be this way in five minutes.” You just do not know. And after you live with this for a while, you kind of realize, and I hate to say this, but it is all going on by itself. It is just going on by itself. And in a way, what I have learned, or what this experience does, it allows you to accept that, to wholly accept it.

Rick: So, when you say it is going on by itself, does that mean that you feel that there really is no individual will? There is just this whole universe just rolling along, and you are a detached witness to it?

Joel: Well, I am not a detached witness. I have embraced, one embraces life. Life is, you are hugging it. It is just so wondrous and beautiful, in every experience; food, the things you see, music, whatever. But again, I will use the word: you are just not hooked by it. I don’t know how to say it better.

Rick: That’s a good phrase. And of course, that does not mean you do not remember things. The fact that things are not leaving an impression does not mean you do not remember them. You could probably tell me who won the World Series last year. Was it the Yankees? I don’t know.

Joel: Oh yeah, it was the Yankees.

Rick: Oh, okay, good. I have not followed them too closely since Whitey Ford was the pitcher, and Mickey Mantle and Roger Marris played, with that whole lineup in ’61. But anyway, so you mentioned 24/7 with this experience. So obviously we spend eight hours a night sleeping. What is your experience during sleep now? Has it gotten back to what it was when you were a child, or is it different, or what?

Joel: When I lie down and close my eyes, well, right now it does not matter whether my eyes are closed, open, or whether I am sitting. I do not use the mantra anymore. Sometimes it shows up, sometimes it does not. I am not using anything. I sit, close my eyes, and it just rolls.

Rick: It just rolls, meaning you are just in a state of unboundedness, just enjoying that.

Joel: Enjoying that, whatever floats through.

Rick: The body is getting some rest.

Joel: That is what is great about it. So anyway, so sleep, you close your eyes, it is all expanded. You float off. A dream goes through. Sometimes it is almost like a movie, but it is very, very vivid. It is as vivid as right now, as life, as the waking state. That will happen. I wake up in the morning. There is that first impulse of feeling the body again, having the thought come through. Sometimes you don’t know where you are, sometimes you do, but there is a continuity through that whole night, the awareness is aware. Even when there is nothing there, nothing to experience, nothing to be aware of, there is still what we used to call pure awareness.

Rick: So, this is something that people in various spiritual traditions have spoken of. I think in the Song of Solomon in the Bible it says, “I sleep, though my heart waketh.” In the TM movement it is called “witnessing sleep,” and it is said to be a sign of what Maharishi called “cosmic consciousness.” So, let’s talk about that just for a minute before we go on to the next thing. Sometimes people think that, when they’re witnessing sleep, now this is one of these conceptions people have before they actually experience it, they think this is going to mean that, even though they are sleeping, they are going to be aware of what is going on in the room, or they are going to be aware of some kind of external thing through their senses. But you do not mean that, do you?

Joel: No, I do not mean that at all. I find there is a period of nothing, no sense perception, except the fact that you know that you still know.

Rick: All right, now let me probe that a little bit. Somebody might say, “Well, how do you know it?” Because if there is no sense perception, how do you experience it? There must be some sense experiencing this awareness or this knowingness.

Joel: I have no idea. I cannot really explain it, Rick.

Rick: I am just drawing it out of you a little bit. Obviously, it is not something which has a smell, a taste, a touch, an appearance or a sound, but yet you know it. And that would probably be true as much in the waking state as it is in the sleep state. So, would it be fair to say that it somehow knows itself through some mechanism which we might not be able to explain?

Joel: Exactly right. Yeah, the knowing is all that is. I mean, that knowing, it knows itself, it is self-evident, but you cannot put it into words, you cannot grasp it with the mind. When you look at it, if you look at it, it is empty. And at the same time, it is filled with everything flowing through it. It is the container of everything. And that is where the unity comes in, because there is no inside or outside anymore. In fact, I do not even notice a movement of what I used to call awareness anymore. It is just all there.

Rick: Let us proceed toward that in increments. So, we have kind of covered the sleep thing, I think. Is there anything more you want to say about that?

Joel: No.

Rick: Do you sleep the same number of hours as you used to?

Joel: No, much shorter.

Rick: Like how long?

Joel: Maybe three or four hours. Then I am awake again. I might get up and sit and meditate for a while. Sometimes I do not go back to bed. Sometimes I will just lie down. If I do lie down again, usually there is a lot of dreaming going on but within another hour or so I am up.

Rick: You might go to bed at midnight and be up by 4 or 5 in the morning or something?

Joel: Yeah, always. It really does not matter what time I go to bed, but 4 or 5 is my wake up time.

Rick: When you get up. Okay, now you said some intriguing things in the last 20 minutes or so. You have talked about the sumptuousness or the richness of your experience. I think you used the word “exploring” it or something. We will get to that. You also just alluded to a unified state. Let’s unfold that, taking as much time as you would like to go into each detail of it.

Joel: Okay. Well, as far as what I would call a unified state is, once that shift happens, where you actually lose the idea of a separation, I actually see the silence. I see the silence.

Rick: In other words, when you look at your wall or something?

Joel: Whatever I’m looking at, yeah.

Rick: You see silence in it.

Joel: In it, through it. There was a period earlier, 1999, 2000, where I could not see, I did not have that perception. Once I started seeing the silence, that is when the two things came together. The inside became so that there was no boundary between outside and inside anymore.

Rick: Huh. So, there was no longer any sense that, “Okay, there is this silence which I am, and then there is this world out there which is totally different from it.”

Joel: Exactly. Yeah.

Rick: Okay. So, was there a sense that the world is contained in the silence?

Joel: Oh, absolutely. My body, my mind, thoughts going through, whatever, it is all in that silence. I guess a word I could use is, that silence actually permeates everything. Okay? So, I was listening to Alan Watts the other day, and he was talking about how the average person sees an object but does not see the space around the object. And for an architect or an artist, and maybe for a photographer, when you look at something, you see the whole thing, and the space is included in that. Well, that is one way of looking at the world, but this is even more. What it is, is this vastness, and the vastness, the stillness, is what is perceived through the eyes.

Rick: Huh.

Joel: Now, my friend actually sees everything with a haze of light.

Rick: Who’s that, Ben?

Joel: Ben, yeah.

Rick: I will have to interview him too. [Laughter] Is it a purple haze by any chance? [Laughter]

Joel: I don’t think so at all, maybe. [Laughter] So, all right, so that is the unity part.

Rick: Let’s get that a little bit more. So, you see the vastness, you said, you see the silence. Now, of course, if you are looking at an apple, you are also seeing an apple.

Joel: Oh, absolutely.

Rick: But you are somehow, would you say that the vastness is a subtle quality of the apple, or is it the ultimate level of the apple? How would you convey that to people? Because obviously, it is one of those things, another one of those things, where if a person just hears it, it might sound weird. They are going to think, “Oh, what is this going to mean? Am I going to be able to hold down a job? Am I going to be able to relate to my kids?”

Joel: Yeah. No, there is no problem. And things do not become ethereal. It is just, again, it is that deeper knowing, without intellect, without analyzation. It is the deeper knowing that I am perceiving what used to be just inside is now everywhere.

Rick: Yeah.

Joel: And when I say I see it, it does not make things different. Well, you know, things are brighter, colors are brighter. There is a wonderment about everything. I mean, it is just so beautiful.

Rick: When you say you see it, now that just pertains to the eyesight. But how about, do you hear it? Do you smell it? Do you taste it? Do you touch it?

Joel: Not so much. I cannot really say that that is it. And I know when I taste a piece of food, that sensation is flowing through the stillness, because that is the way everything is perceived now. I mean, the stillness is first, and everything is in that. So, if I taste a piece of food, it is flowing through the stillness, but it is not the same perception or same quality that I am talking about with my sight. Now, this could be because I was a photographer.

Rick: Yeah, maybe you are a visual person.

Joel: Oh, very visual. You know, when I plan something, I see it. I do not think it. And it has always been that way. I see the roads that I am going to be traveling when I say, “I’m going to my son’s house.” Have we beat that horse to death yet?

Rick: Yeah, yeah, you can go on to the next horse.

Joel: Okay. So, knowing that everything goes on by itself is what I will try to explain now. If you realize that you are unconditional knowing, that is what you are, unconditional knowing, there is no hook in any experience at all, because I am unconditional. I can experience anything unconditionally. The thinking mind is what does label and quantify and qualify. Now, part of this experience is that there is no more obsessive thinking. That is where the quietness comes in. The obsession, you know, thinking the same thoughts every day over and over.

Rick: So, you never get a song stuck in your head and it goes over and over and over again?

Joel: It just gets a little different. I would not say that is an obsession. I just have a jukebox there, and if I want to listen to Allman Brothers, it is there. Or a nice blues song over there. I do not count that as obsessive, because there is no suffering in it.

Rick: So, you never have a thought that you think, “God, I wish this would go away. I’m tired of thinking this thought.”

Joel: No, not anymore. Of course I used to, yeah. So, the obsessive thinking constantly is where the hook comes in. If you are not hooked into an experience, whatever happens can really, really be experienced as flowing through this stillness and silence. And that is where the peace and freedom come in. Because whatever comes through is seen as arising and dissolving. So, whatever it is, you know, whether it is something big like an accident or if my daughter loses her job or something like that. Eventually, I mean, it arose, and eventually it is gone. And it is over with. And you never get hooked back into it with thinking over and over again about, “My daughter lost her job. What are we going to do? Do I have to support her now?” This kind of stuff.

Rick: How about personal opinions? Do you feel that your opinions about things are as strong as they ever were? Or do you feel that you have more of a broad-mindedness and you can see everyone’s perspective and how it is valid from its own little direction?

Joel: Absolutely, because being unconditional, you can look at both ends of it. You know, it is a paradox. You have the white and the black, and you can look at both of them and see value in both of them and realize that whatever is going to happen is going to happen.

Rick: So, for instance, as in politics. You know, I mean, there  are all these issues. First of all, there are the political parties. Now there is the Tea Party. And then there are all kinds of issues that people get all hot and bothered about, like gun control and abortion and taxes and health care and all this stuff. I mean, do you watch the news? And when you listen or read about that stuff, do you find that you have a very definite sort of stance that, “Oh, I’m going to vote this way, and I believe this about that issue,” and so on? Or is it more of a situation where there are both, where you have your opinion, and at the same time you can accommodate other people’s opinions, even though they are completely different from yours?

Joel: Yeah, I would say that describes it. I might have an opinion, but as you say, I can see the value of the other opinion, and I do not have to argue with people. I do not have to jump up and down about my opinion anymore. It is just what is being thought. It might feel right, and that is why I am leaning that way, but I hate to say it doesn’t matter. This is not a strategy that develops.

Rick: It is a symptom, not a cause.

Joel: Exactly.

Rick: Right. In other words, it is just the way you function. It is not something you are trying to do.

Joel: Exactly.

Rick: And we would not suggest that a person can arrive at this unified state by just being non-committal about things, just having this go-with-the-flow kind of groovy-ness about them or something.

Joel: Right. It is all based on that shift, that original awakening or that original realization that finally you realize that this is what you are. You are just unconditionally going.

Rick: I think this is an important point because there is a lot of cart-before-the-horse-ism going on in spiritual circles. And this has always been, where people take descriptions of the goal and then try to turn that into a path. They will just adopt an attitude like, “Oh, I don’t really care about anything,” or they will even adopt a concept like, “The world is an illusion and all is one,” and “OK, I’m done, I got that, I must be enlightened now, I can start teaching or I don’t have to keep practicing.” That kind of stuff is quite common.

Joel: Yeah, it is true. I went through some of that earlier in this whole thing. I mean, 38, 39 years of spiritual practice, everything went in the barrel. Yeah, I had a spiritual ego at one time.

Rick: Right.

Joel: Yeah, interesting stuff. Yeah, and this thing again about everything going on by itself. So, when you see everything just arising and dissolving, I really feel that is the key to this peaceful feeling, everything is fine and I can accept it, whatever it is, accept it.

Rick: So, in other words, you see everything arising and dissolving. You better restate that, that is a little unclear. You see everything arising and dissolving and that is the key to this peaceful feeling? It seems to me that you just put the cart before the horse. In other words, that silence got established and because you are grounded in that, you see everything in a different way.

Joel: Well, yes, yes, but I see it flowing through me.

Rick: Right.

Joel: So, it is flowing through me. There is absolutely nothing initiated by a person, a personal person.

Rick: Yeah.

Joel: I mean, it is just happening. It arises and dissolves, arises and dissolves. So how can you be attached, really, really attached to anything anymore? How can you really, really have an opinion that it is only this way?

Rick: Right.

Joel: What I am saying is, once that shift happens, this is the way it is.

Rick: Yeah.

Joel: This is the change.

Rick: Yeah.

Joel: It is the practicality.

Rick: It is a subtle thing, actually, I think, because what you are saying is so easy to misunderstand. And I am saying that just because I have misunderstood it and I also see it being misunderstood. But what you are saying is that, and you can correct me if I am wrong, that you just cannot get locked… Oh God, there is a beautiful quote from the Bible. I have quoted this before on some of these interviews. “For the foxes have their holes and the birds have their nests, but the son of man has no place to lay his head.” And my interpretation of that is just what you said. You know, you cannot be contained by any cubbyhole, by any nest, by any box, by any concept. You can entertain concepts, you can favor one concept over another, one opinion over another, but you are not defined by them.

Joel: Yes, I would agree with that. Yeah, I think that is perfect.

Rick; And when you say “things flowing through me,” are you referring to your structure as a person, things flowing through that, or is it the bigger me you are referring to?

Joel: Of course, the bigger me. It is interesting. I had a root canal a while back. And with this experience, or the way I am now, if I have pain, it is not localized here, it is floating in that space. So, I did not take any anesthesia at all. You can just be with it. It is just pain. But it is not necessarily here, it is there.

Rick: That is interesting. So, what did the dentist think of that? Did he think you were some kind of masochist or something?

Joel: I don’t know. I have been going to this guy for 30 years. He just asked, “You don’t want any?” I said, “No, let’s try this.” And it was fine.

Rick: Wow. And would the same be true of pleasure? I mean, if you eat a delicious meal, is there a sense that pleasure is out here someplace?

Joel: Not with the meal, but with my wife, intimately. Yeah, yeah.

Rick: And is that better in some way?

Joel: Oh, yeah. Yeah, of course. Of course. You know, we have been married 44 years. And yeah, this is probably the best time of our life. I mean, just everything about it. She even said to me a couple of days ago, “I never thought I’d be so happy at this stage in my life.” That is cool.

Rick: Has she had her own sort of spiritual awakening, or what?

Joel: You know, she has meditated as long as I have. Not so much that she will say “I had an awakening,” but I can see in her the way she operates. I mean, she is the most laid-back person I know. And if she is happy, I am happy.

Rick: Yeah.

Joel: What do you want? Want to go poking a stick at something? No.

Rick: Now, you mentioned that you see the silence in everything, and feel the silence in everything, and so on. Is there any subtle perception in terms of how some people speak in terms of seeing auras, or seeing angels, or seeing some celestial level of life? Do you have any of that kind of stuff?

Joel: Not at all. I have not seen an angel, have not seen an aura. Nope, nothing.

Rick: Interesting. I once heard some people ask Maharishi about that, and he said it is not really a criterion of a particular state of consciousness. It is more of a function of one’s perceptual abilities, or whatever, which may or may not be tightly correlated with a particular state of consciousness.

Joel: Right. Well, this brings up another point about if everything is going on by itself, then everything arises as necessary. So maybe I do not have to see an angel. Maybe whatever is going on here, that is not where it is going to be.

Rick: Right.

Joel: And again, if you feel so fulfilled, I do not care. If it happens, it happens. If it doesn’t, it doesn’t. I mean, I listened to, I think, Mary mentioned that she did, was it Jim, too? I can’t remember. But a few people that you have interviewed have mentioned that. I mean, I do not disbelieve them.

Rick: Sure.

Joel: I mean, you know, once you go to the six-month course, you cannot disbelieve anything anymore.

Rick: Yeah, all kinds of things happen there.

Joel: Yeah, exactly.

Rick: So, what was I was going to ask you. Go ahead if you have something more to say, because I forgot what I was going to ask you.

Joel: So, there really is this feeling that everything happens as necessary. Now, I don’t know what the necessity is. I don’t really know anything, you know what I’m saying. I mean, I cannot say this is the way it is, or this is only this way. So being open-minded about this whole thing, if I feel that everything is going on as necessary, and everything arises at the same time, there is the student, the teacher, the need to know, the words that are going to be said, the book that you open, and you just hit the right page, and all of a sudden it just speaks to you perfectly. All that is, again, this whole idea of it is all happening as necessary. And again, that has to do with the peace.

Rick: So, throughout the day, every single moment, you just sort of feel like things are unfolding in a perfect, orderly way, the way they are supposed to.

Joel: And that is not in an ethereal way, it is very concrete. But, how many times have I picked up Rumi, and I will open a page of poetry, and then that just speaks to me so perfectly. Or I pick up Sri Nisargadatta’s book, “I am that.” And it is just interview after, I mean, not interview, but question and answer, Q&A, Q&A, and you just happen to open up the right Q&A at that moment.

Rick: Well, would it be that anything you opened it up to would seem right, because there is just a lot of meaning in every Q&A. Or does it actually happen, and the same with Rumi, or does it actually happen that you open it to the one that actually pertains to something that is really going on in your life right then?

Joel: That is exactly right. That is exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. And there is a prelude to it. Such as, the night before, my daughter will ask me a question, or I will have an insight just bubble up. Or I will see something, or there will be a question about something, and if I happen to open the book, it just speaks to me.

Rick: Yeah.

Joel: It speaks perfectly to me. What it does is it just, sometimes it is a clarification, but most of the time it is a confirmation of what I already know.

Rick: And that is with regard to spiritual things, books like Nisargadatta and so on, but how about if you are …

Joel: You are talking about the flow of …

Rick: Well, yeah, everything. How about if you are walking around the grocery store, and you are shopping, and you are looking for the soup, or you are looking for the soap, or the toilet paper, or whatever. Is there also, even in that circumstance, a sense of perfect flow, that everything is just sort of happening exactly the way it is supposed to happen?

Joel: Exactly, yeah. Most definitely, if you are looking for something, say, to fix a vehicle, and so you go to a shop, and you may be thinking about this is how I am going to do it, and all of a sudden, the correct answer will just come to you, or I will have a question about something and I will find it online very easily without a struggle, just Google and boom, it’s right there. Or the old thing about, especially in New York, trying to find a parking space, you turn a corner and there you are. You don’t have to try. You don’t have to try.

Rick: So, things just come to you.

Joel: Typically, as necessary. And I have to say, if something does not come, that is fine too. And for me, there is that kind of thing where you say, okay, all right. So, say I was supposed to leave the house 15 minutes ago, but I got stuck doing something. I get in the car, I am riding down the road, and here is a big accident. Now, 15 minutes earlier, I would have been right there.

Rick: Yeah, yeah. So, and it comes so often that you just forget about it. You do not constantly analyze this thing. It is just the way life is.

Rick: Do you also have a thing that you will be thinking about somebody and then the phone will ring and that person will call you up and that kind of thing?

Joel: Yeah, absolutely.

Rick: It is nice. I mean, everyone has had experiences like this, but what you are saying is, as a result of this development that you have undergone, it is pretty much a constant quality of your life.

Joel: It is the way life is. It is the way it flows through.

Rick: That is great. I mean, that can help people to relate to this state, because perhaps everyone has had a taste of inner silence and everyone has had a taste of expansion, and everyone has had a taste of these coincidental experiences that seem more than coincidental. And so, we know that such things are possible, and you are just an example of someone who has gotten to the point where these things have become the permanent reality of life.

Joel: Yes, I would totally agree with that.

Rick: Yeah.

Joel: So again, that allows the freedom and the peace to be in the mind. The mind can now rest, too.

Rick: Yeah.

Joel: I mean, you are feeling this bliss and love and stillness, and at the same time, that fulfillment, because it has happened, because it is rolling on by itself, the mind is not hooked anymore.

Rick: Right.

Joel: I see it both ways, you know what I am saying? You can say that shift is the cause, but you can also say, now the mind does not have to analyze or look or say, “This is because of the shift.” The mind can just flow through.

Rick: Right.

Joel: The experience can just flow through.

Rick: Now, let me just open this and get a little fresh air. What would you say, you’re saying everything goes on by itself, everything just flows naturally, but there must be some kind of impetus to action. There must be something which gets you out of bed in the morning and puts your toast in the toaster. There must be something that is causing you to take your next breath, take your next step, whatever it is that you do. Most people perceive that something to be an individual who is holding the strings and calling the shots and saying, “Okay, now I am going to do this and I am going to do that.” In your case, you do not feel there is such an individual, you feel everything is going on by itself, but there must be some motivating force.

Joel: Well, it is the impulse to action.

Rick: What is that impulse? What is causing that impulse?

Joel: It arises. I have no idea what is causing it. I mean, it just arises. You are lying in bed, you are comfortable, you are awake, thoughts are flowing through, and then all of a sudden there is an impulse, “I would like a cup of coffee,” and you get out of bed. But that, I don’t feel that is coming from some “I.” For me, thinking is a happening, not an activity. Does that make any sense to you?

Rick: You better clarify. Thinking is a happening. In other words, it is something that just happens automatically.

Joel: Yeah, it is arising and dissolving by itself. So that is even the impulse to action. Now, sometimes I have an impulse to action, it arises, and I act. Sometimes there is an impulse and I do not act. It is going to be one way or the other, whether the body-mind is going to do it or not do it. You know, that thing comes up, you do not have to make a decision, it is either going to happen or it is not going to happen.

Rick: What I am trying to do here is, I have in mind a particular individual who often watches these and says, “So far I have not seen anything that makes me feel like the person you interviewed is any different than I am, or has got anything that I would aspire to.” And what I am trying to pinpoint is how this is different from what the average person experiences. Because the average person might say, “Hey, I am lying in bed in the morning and I want a cup of coffee, and so, I get up and get one. What is so different about the way Joel just described it?” Can you go back 20 years to when you were lying in bed and wanted a cup of coffee, and try to contrast the way it worked for you then with the way it works for you now?

Joel: Sure. Back then, there was a feeling that I am thinking this thought. I am willing myself to get out of the bed and go make a cup of coffee. I am willing myself to get up at 6 o’clock in the morning and go to the same old shitty job that I hate. I am willing myself to do this, and I am going to think about it all damn day, and I am going to suffer over this. The difference is, what I see is: I am stillness, silence, the container of all experience. Part of that experience, part of what is in me, is this arising of either sometimes words, sometimes just a feeling, and that causes me to get up. There was no will in it. There was no individual will in it. I do not feel that I, the small I, thinks anymore. What I see is that those energies arise. I cannot say that what arises, these energies,  are creating this, but it is the impulse for activity. Or it is the impulse to understand something. It is the impulse to have an insight. Whether or not it is the correct insight, all that just does not matter. It is just going on by itself.

Rick: All right, let’s say this. Twenty years ago, there was a predominant sense that there was a localized individual “I” who was calling the shots. Sorry to be beating this to death. But now there is no sense of a localized individual “I”, but nonetheless things continue to go on and happen. Your body is doing stuff. But if there is any motivator for that action, it is not so isolated as it once was. It is much more of a broad, vast, cosmic kind of thing that is motivating things. Or am I putting words into your mouth?

Joel: No, no, no. Part of it I would say is correct, but it does not feel like this, I do not think about it as a cosmic flow. You just do not think about it that way. But there is this definite knowing that there is no “I”, personal feeling, in what arises in this space.

Rick: Right. And do you feel that there is still an individual “I”, but it does not have thoughts and all this stuff anymore? Or there just is not one?

Joel: Not now, there is not one. That ended. There was a second kind of dropping away of a feeling.

Rick: You mean after the tree experience?

Joel: Yeah, after the tree experience.

Rick: Later on? Tell us about that a little bit.

Joel: So, there was still a feeling that somebody was the knower. I did not know who that somebody was. And it was not the original somebody who I thought I was 20 years ago.

Rick: But there still was a somebody.

Joel: But there still was a somebody. And that somebody also is gone.

Rick: At a certain point, that somebody also…

Joel: At a certain point, yeah, yeah. That happened a while back. I cannot remember when.

Rick: So, I heard a phrase today, maybe you can agree with this. “I am nobody, and nobody is perfect, therefore I am perfect.” I am just joking with you.

Joel: No, I read it. The person said, “I am just joking with you.” No, well,  I am not perfect. Again, I have got to come back to this thing. Unless you have had that experience, it is very hard to put into a concept that is going to be understood.

Rick: Yeah, I agree, and I understand that. But I think dwelling on it like this, hammering away at it, I think helps in some way. It helps to clarify in some subtle way what is going on, what you are talking about, what the experience is. And perhaps to dispel some misconceptions. I wish, in a way, this were a live show and we could take questions from people as we go along. Because people might think of questions that I am not thinking of. And incidentally, I should add that it is possible to submit questions. I will have this on Facebook and I will have it on batgap.com. And there is a place there where you can type in questions and Joel will answer them, if you want to try. Okay.

One thought that occurred to me a minute ago, which is kind of cool, is you were talking about how everything seems to be orchestrated spontaneously. You might have trouble leaving the house and you were 15 minutes late, but it turns out you missed a car accident because you were 15 minutes late. And that your whole life goes like that now. It is interesting to consider that if an individual isolated localized intelligence is calling the shots, it cannot take into account all the other possible situations going on, all the ramifications and details. And so, it tends to bump into things a lot more, figuratively speaking. Whereas if there is a set of broader intelligence that is somehow calling the shots, even though you might not consciously be aware that there is going to be an accident here, there is some broader intelligence which might take into account all those circumstances, the people driving those cars and everything else that is going to happen. And so at least as far as this body is concerned, it is going to steer it in a way that is going to be smoother and not run into difficulties that you consciously could not even foresee.

Joel: In a way, you are looking at it in a linear way.

Rick: I am?

Joel: Yeah. I do not think it is linear at all. I just think it is all just perfect. At the same moment, it is all just perfect. So again, I think in a way, we are trying to put it into words that the words are not going to capture it. And I do not think it is important, other than the physical suffering that people go through, whether or not they feel that there is an “I”, a small “I”, or whether they have this experience. It is still going on by themselves. They may think and have that feeling of the personal “I”. I mean, take the case of Jill Bulte Taylor, Dr. Taylor.

Rick: She had a stroke.

Joel: Right. So immediately, and I forget right side, left side, but one side of her brain, which is the side that had this personal part, was gone. And immediately, she was this.

Rick: Yeah. I think it was the left side, yeah.

Joel: Okay. So, but it just did not matter because her life still was going on by itself. You just do not know it. What you lose is the suffering. What you gain is this unspeakable peace.

Rick: And would you say that the suffering is primarily due to this attachment or this grip that you talked about before? The hook.

Joel: The hook and the obsessive thinking.

Rick: Yeah. All suffering is obsessive thinking. We are only trying to quiet our minds. That is what we are doing. We want peace. That is what we are looking for. Nothing else really matters. If you have a peaceful, quiet mind, you can tolerate anything.

Rick: Yeah.

Joel: And in a way, I really think, and this is probably a concept that, if you read Eckhart Tolle, he talks about the insanity of the human race. The insanity of the human race is: we talk to ourselves constantly.

Rick: Yeah, okay. So how does talking to ourselves constantly result in war and environmental destruction and the fact that a child dies of starvation every five seconds? How are those problems a manifestation of our talking to ourselves constantly?

Joel: I cannot answer that, because I feel talking to ourselves, this is kind of strange, but if you are talking to yourself constantly and you are constantly suffering over your thoughts, do you not think you would be a little pissed off and have less tolerance for another person? So, you would have less tolerance for another religion, another philosophy. You would feel more apt to have a very strong opinion, willing to fight over it. That is basically it.

Rick: Yeah, and you might also perhaps have the sort of narrow-mindedness or greediness that would result in not caring if the product you were selling gave people cancer or wrecked the environment or so on, as long as you lined your pockets.

Joel: Exactly. You know, I just had a grandchild two years ago, so I watched her very closely. It is so beautiful. They are so open and free with the way they see the world, and they are not hooked at all. There are no words in there, which is nice. And as now she is speaking, now there is a small ego there. You can see it. She wants certain things to be her way.

Rick: Terrible twos.

Joel: Yeah, terrible twos. So, this is what happens to all of us. We are born into this beautiful world, and it is just a big wonderment. And we just get all this stuff piled on top of us, and we start believing this, and we start believing that, and we start believing that we have to make a lot of money, and I have to be an important person, and I have to leave something when I die. Whatever it is, you know, I want to be president, I want to be this, I want to be that. But the truth of the matter is, it is just going on by itself anyway.

Rick: Well, it’s interesting, because what you are saying could cause a person to think, all this running by itself business, that if everyone were like that, we would all just be a bunch of jellyfish floating around, and nothing would get accomplished. There would not be much motivation or incentive, we would just be waiting for the universe to flow through us. But I would posit that if everyone in the world were like this, there would actually be a lot more of a constructive nature getting accomplished, and we would not be squandering our energies, either personal or societal, on fruitless things such as wars. Think how wasteful wars are, economically how wasteful they are, in terms of the lives that are lost, and the injuries that are caused, and so on. It may sound idealistic, but it is as if you probably personally find you don’t get involved in personal squabbles or battles with people. Maybe you used to, I don’t know. But it is as if this intelligence, or whatever you want to call it, this something or other that is guiding your life is also guiding my life, and the lives of everybody else out there. And so, if we are truly all one, and I believe you are living your life from the actual experience of the fact that we are truly all one, then that one is not going to fight against itself. It is going to orchestrate things in such a way that all the parts contribute to a harmonious whole. Whereas, if the perception is not of that harmonious whole, or that oneness that is ultimately foundational to everything, then each part perceives itself as being separate from, and very likely at odds with, all the other parts. And so, every part is out for itself, and we have all these problems, all these clashes, all these divisions. So, I would like to suggest that the type of experience you have been describing tonight is the key to world peace, and to world harmony, and  is the solution to environmental problems. Not that we do not have to keep working on those things on their own levels. You have to do what you need to do to clean up the environment, or to resolve political conflicts, or whatever. But if more of this kind of experience you have been experiencing and describing could be infused into the consciousness of the world, if more and more people could wake up to this, I suspect that all these problems that seem so intractable would begin to dissolve.

Joel: Well, yes, I agree with you, but is that not what is happening?

Rick: It is and it is not. On the one hand, I do see, and others, of course, see an upsurge of this kind of experience. I would not be able to do this show if that were not the case. I have a whole list of people I can talk to who are having this sort of experience. On the other hand, the world seems to be going to hell in a handbasket. Many, many problems seem to be getting worse. I was just listening to an interview today in which someone was saying that it almost seems as though the polarities are increasing, that things are getting worse and better at the same time, and we are not quite sure how that is all going to end up.

Joel: Both ends of the spectrum, of the whole. I will go back to an analogy of Maharishi’s, where you can grope around in a dark cave, and you can analyze this and hunk into that, and you can do that for a millennium, thousands and thousands of years, and then someone comes in and turns on the light switch, and it all changes instantly. I really believe that we are going to get that tipping point happening, because I went to world planning things out in Fairfield. I firmly believe this is going to happen eventually. I don’t know what the numbers are, I can’t remember all that stuff.

Rick: Yeah, and if it is a matter of numbers, I do not think it is solely the responsibility of the TM movement to produce those numbers. I think there are people all over the world who are waking up each in their own way.

Joel: Absolutely. The path, there are so many. This is the beauty of your show. You have had people from Fairfield, and meditators, and people dedicated to TM. But there is such a diversity of paths that have people whom you have interviewed, and there is also such a diversity of how that is expressed in their lives, too. I mean, you have this basic experience, but I express it differently. I mean, the young fellow last week, he has a beautiful website, and people are really, really trying to understand, I think, he is helping. I taught satsang for a while in prisons, actually, and it was a very beautiful experience, so much love.

Rick: There in New Jersey?

Joel: No, actually up in Boston. There is a really good sangha up in Boston, I got involved with them.

Rick: What kind of a sangha? You mean a Buddhist thing?

Joel: Oh, no, no, when I say sangha, I mean people who just go to all these teachers who come through. Neelum was very popular at one time. She got sick and she could not travel anymore, but there are a lot of teachers who go through Boston.

Rick: So, you just were sort of hanging out with that crowd, seeing teachers, and you had a bunch of friends, and then you started actually going into prisons and talking to the prisoners. What would you say to them?

Joel: Oh, I would give them the experience.

Rick: Describe your experience?

Joel: No, I would teach them a sort of a meditation that I came up with. You know, the body is really a gateway to this experience. So, what I would do is, I would take them through a guided meditation and basically show them that awareness is unconditional, awareness is going on by itself, it is flowing. You know, have them just feel parts of their body, suggest this, maybe a sound or whatever, and then immediately, in prison, they would have a small awakening. I remember one guy. This was a guy, if you saw him coming down the street, you would definitely cross the street. You did not want to be on the same side of the street with this guy. And he sat down, and he was jumping around, jittery, and then we went through this guided meditation. And when I opened my eyes and I looked at him, his face was just glowing, all the stress was gone. He came over and shook my hand and said, “That is the best medicine I have ever had.”

Rick: Wow.

Joel: So, he had it, you know, he got it. And this is another thing. I do not feel as if I did anything. I do not feel it was because of me. All he did was remember who he was. And that is it. Another point I’d like to make, all these teachers, you cannot put people up on a pedestal. They are, we are all the same. We are all the same. And when you are sitting in satsang or with a teacher and you are feeling that expansion, it is you. This is who you are. It is not because of the teacher. You are not feeling the teacher’s presence. You are feeling your presence.

Rick: Yeah. I think sometimes teachers have a knack of acting as a catalyst. I forget the exact scientific definition of a catalyst, but it is something which sort of facilitates a chemical reaction without actually influencing the reaction. It is just that, in the presence of the catalyst, the reaction takes place more readily. And I think that is what you could say of a teacher. They are not giving you anything. It is not as if there is a transmission from A to B, but somehow, they are able to create a space in which it is more conducive for you to recognize who you are.

Joel: Exactly. When you sit in satsang, the whole group, everybody wants to remember themselves. The teacher is pointing with his or her fingers towards this and talking to you about this. And of course, you are settling down and you just remember.

Rick: And you have created an opportunity also. Those guys in the prison are not just going to get together and sit and close their eyes and have this thing happen, but you have created a circumstance where it can be allowed to happen and you are just guiding them through it and letting it happen in a more direct way.

Joel: Yeah, exactly.

Rick: Do you still have any motivation to do that?

Joel: Not too much now. We spend six months in Florida during the winter and we spend six months here. And this year when I go to Florida, I am going to teach a meditation class. It is a resort that we go to. We have a motorhome, so it is more or less a campground that is a little more fancy than a KOA. And there is a community there. There are around 600 people. Most of the people have been there multiple years in a row, so, everybody is very friendly. We have a lot of activities. So, this year I am doing the meditation. I teach a photography and digital photography course along with a computer. I do a lot of cooking for the parties and aerobic walking in the morning. So, yeah, that is my activity.

Rick: What do you do when you are up in New Jersey?

Joel: Hang out.

Rick: Ah, to be retired.

Joel: The Yankees have had senior days. You can get $70 seats for five bucks.

Rick: Cool.

Joel: Really nice, right down the foul pole line. It’s great. First base or the third base side.

Rick: So, you go to a bunch of Yankees games.

Joel: I went to quite a few this year.

Rick: Great. It is so funny. It is such a conundrum, such a paradox. Here is this guy who says “there is nobody home, there is no individuality, but I love to go to Yankees games.”

Joel: I know. You still watch television, which is amazing sometimes. I am staring at this screen. Some of the shows are good, some are not.

Rick: There are lots of teachers who harp on this “nobody is home” business, no individuality. Douglas Harding was one. Tony Parsons too, and there is a whole Neo-Advaita crowd. A lot of them jump to a lot of conclusions from it. Since there is nobody home, that means there is no reincarnation, there is no God. All these concepts that people have come up with are just silly notions that they use to entertain themselves. I do not claim to have your level of experience, but I suspect that when I do, I will still acknowledge the reality or the significance of all the levels and stages of experience and development that anyone may have. Would you agree?

Joel: Oh, absolutely. I think Neo-Advaita tends to emphasize that stillness and that bad experience and really does not talk about what happens afterwards.

Rick: Maybe it has not happened afterwards for the people who are talking about it. Maybe they are keeping themselves stuck at that stage by dwelling on it so adamantly. I just wonder.

Joel: When you talk to the general public, you really cannot feel where they are coming from. So, what you really want to do is give them that experience, however it happens, just from sitting in a group or you want to have them have that spaciousness while they are in satsang. Sometimes that lasts a few days and then everybody says, “Oh, my mind came back.” That is where you get this hook about you are going to stop thinking because while you are in satsang, you are really not thinking too much. You are just grooving on the silence. So, I think that is why that is emphasized with these people, the teachers.

Rick: Don’t you think it sort of misleads people to give them the impression that that is the end of it?

Joel: It definitely could be confusing. I was confused for a long time. Even if the teacher said, “Thoughts are…” I still… it is still confused. It is that experience that does away with the confusion.

Rick: Yeah, and you are a guy who meditated for 30-odd years in order to have that experience. A lot of these people dismiss the value of meditation too. They say, “You don’t need it. It is a lot of bunk. You do not need teachers. They are a lot of bunk,” even though they are being a teacher. You should just realize it. Bingo.

Joel: Yeah, or just stop.

Rick: Unfortunately, I think what a lot of people do when they hear that is that they glom on to an intellectual concept of the world being an illusion and the self not existing, and so on and so forth. They feel like, “Okay, well I’ve got the concept, that must be it.” In fact, I was listening to one person who is very involved in one of these interview shows, which has this flavor strongly, and one day she said, “You know, but it is all so ordinary.” There was this wistfulness in her voice, as if to ask, “Isn’t there anything more than this? Is this what all the fuss is about, what I am experiencing? Because it does not seem like it.” That was the impression she was giving. It is unfortunate. I just feel as if there is this misleading thing that goes on.

Joel: This is true, but you can go through a period where life is very flat, especially in the witnessing stage where there is still somebody watching. Life can be very unpleasant during that time. That was that period of 8 to 12 years that I went through.

Rick: Do you feel that you went through a dark night of the soul period, or might that have been it?

Joel: I guess you could call it that.

Rick: I was listening to Andrew Harvey yesterday. I don’t know if you’re familiar with him, but he is a very articulate, brilliant guy. I love to listen to him. He has written about 25 books. I was listening to him on Sounds True, Insights at the Edge interview. He was saying that, basically, anybody who has not gone through what he describes as this really gut-wrenching, agonizing dark night of the soul thing, is not enlightened or is not awakened. They are kidding themselves. I take exception with that, just because I have seen exceptions, so many of them.

Joel: Yeah, mine was not gut-wrenching. It was just kind of boring and, as I say, very flat. There was no bliss, a very little bit of what I would call happiness going on. It is definitely different for everybody. There is no set way that this is going to happen.

Rick: I think it depends to a certain extent on how much garbage you have managed to clear out through whatever practice you have done. Some people come upon these awakenings quite unexpectedly, and then all this stuff has to get worked out to bring their being into line or into accord with the awakening they have had. Since they have not been chipping away at it bit by bit, it has to be taken out in bucket loads, and it can be very, very unpleasant. But you started meditating in your 20s and stuck to it, and I think you probably cleared the path to a great extent in preparation for this awakening.

Joel: I have to agree, and if you read Ramana Maharshi, he talks about the different types of disciples and where they might be at, and where certain things are what that person has to do, whether it is devotion or meditation or just inquiry or whatever it might be. We all start from a certain point, whether there are past lives or whether it is just the energies that gather when this physical mind-body is created, comes into existence, whatever that might be, or even the DNA that stretches back millions of years through all incarnations of consciousness. Whatever all this might be, I forgot my point.

Rick: I think your point is, you were saying, different strokes for different folks.

Joel: Absolutely.

Rick: The attempts to say that it has to be one particular way are too rigid. And obviously, if we look at the creation itself, it does not seem to be the way God operates, if we want to speak in terms of God. He loves diversity, unbelievably creative diversity.

Joel: And changing constantly. Exactly right.

Rick: All righty. Well, I am at that point in the interview where I always ask if there is anything that I have not asked, or anything that you think you might like to say, that we have not touched upon?

Joel: Well, I would like to recommend something to anyone who is experiencing what is going on here. There is a great book that I just read, and I have not read a book in many years, in fact, I gave my whole spiritual library away, maybe four or five years ago. But the Adyashanti book.

Rick: Oh yeah, The End of Your World. Awesome book.

Joel: Oh God. Yeah.

Rick: Let us repeat that. In fact, I have a link to that book on batgap.com. I have it linked right to the Amazon page. In the right-hand column, if you scroll down a ways, you see it. It is Adyashanti, The End of Your World, and it is written for people who have already awakened, basically. It discusses all the trials and tribulations that you might still go through after having had an awakening.

Joel: And I have got to say, he is the most honest teacher I have come across.

Rick: I know, I love the guy.

Joel: I am not talking about Maharishi, but…

Rick: He is just down to earth, direct, simple.

Joel: Absolutely, and he says it exactly the way it happened to him, without any reservation. I mean, he is just telling the truth. I give him credit for that.

Rick: And I might add that if you go to adyashanti.org, there are a lot of audios you can download. And about twice a month, he does a live phone call thing, which you can listen to through the internet. Actually, it is a live internet broadcast, which you can do in audio or video. And it is free in audio, it costs ten bucks in video, but you can call in and ask him questions and stuff. He is coming to Fairfield next year, you ought to come out and visit when he comes.

Joel: Yeah, yeah. I love Fairfield, it’s just, going away for six months in the winter and then coming home, it takes you a month to get the house back operating properly. You plant your garden and then you wait for your tomatoes.

Rick: He is coming next April. Anyway, that is a great book, The End of Your World.

Joel: Yeah, exactly. That’s about it.

Rick: All right. Well, great. This has been fun, Joel.

Joel: Thank you.

Rick: If anything significant ever changes for you, we will do another one. If you start seeing angels or something.

Joel: Yeah, I will let you know. Thanks so much, it was a pleasure.

Rick: Yeah. Do not hang up yet, I just want to conclude and then afterwards, after I stop the recording, we will talk for a bit. But you have been listening to or watching Buddha at the Gas Pump, episode number 36, I think. My name is Rick Archer and I have been talking with Joel Rumbolo, who lives in northwestern New Jersey, and it has been a lot of fun. Next week – I keep saying this every week – but next week it really sounds as if we are going to have this Richard Schooping fellow. I was going to have him tonight, but he had dental work, speaking of dental work, and he did not know what kind of shape he would be in tonight. So, we have put him off until next week. So, thanks a lot and we will see you next time.