Raymond Schumann Transcript

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Raymond Schumann Interview

RICK: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer, Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of interviews or conversations with spiritually Awakening people. We’ve done nearly 600 of them now, if this is new to you, and you’d like to check out, check out previous ones, please go to bat gap, comm bat gap and look under the past interviews menu, or you’ll see them organized in several different ways. This program is made possible through the support of appreciative listeners and viewers. So if you appreciate it and would like to help support it, there’s a PayPal button on every page of bat gap COMM And there’s also a donations page, which gives you a couple options other than PayPal. You may notice if you’re on that gap that the subtitle of this show is conversations with ordinary spiritually Awakening people. And I started out 11 years ago in my hometown here in Iowa, because I had noticed that ordinary people were having spiritual awakenings. But a lot of their friends were skeptical of this because they were ordinary, you know, and there’s sort of this notion that you should have a Sanskrit name or something right famous books or something in order to qualify for awakening. And so part of the motivation in starting this was to showcase ordinary people who are having spiritual awakenings. So people could see that if it can happen to him, it could happen to me. And a lot of times I have interviewed well known people, but we like to mix in unknown people as much as we can find them for that reason. And so today we have Raymond Sherman. Raymond hasn’t written any books, to my knowledge. Maybe you have, we’ll talk about that. He’s written a lot, but I don’t know if he’s published any. He’s a fifth generation carpenter with a high school education. I’ll just read the little bio he sent me we’ll talk about some of these things and many more. A Roman Catholic upbringing left him sexually repressed, adolescence left him a soldier of Christ gone AWOL. You can tell when you read this, when I read this, that he has a sense of humor. I know. In his 20s, he learned about dissociative disorder. The theory explained much help was not thick on the ground and ripe in the pod. Not in those days, a shrink who claimed to treat multiple personalities in danger, his career, Shuman was on his own. He named the self who thwarted his desires. He named the self who thwarted his desires holdfast Tshuma, new spiritual consciousness was essential to healing that only made things worse. He’d watched guru after Roshi disgraced themselves, there was nothing to trust there. The more he sought healing, the worst holdfast trashed him. Eventually, Shuman was desperate enough to say, this has got to get better. I don’t care what it costs. This is God, this has to get better. At that instant, he suffered a kundalini awakening, never trust the goddess, she opened the door to a year of hell, the year leading to ego death a year leading to non dual awareness. things only got worse from there. So that’s funny, because, you know, the reason we want to showcase ordinary people who’ve had spiritual awakenings is that part of the reason is that people might think, Wow, that sounds great. I wish that would happen to me. I don’t know if you’re going to get that feeling, listening to Raymond. But he has a lot to explain. He’s been sending me all kinds of interesting things over the past three, four years. Funny things, profound things, you know, poems, all kinds of interesting stuff. So I really do think he has a lot to say. And I have about four pages of notes here that he sent me of things we want to go over. So here we go. Raymond, in your notes, you you and in the thing I just read you start with your Roman Catholic upbringing. You want to start with that or just take it away you know, say whatever comes to mind.

RAYMOND: Well, I think that you’re wrong up Roman Catholic Was useful to me in one way. I grew up in a living mythology and Since I’m ended up dealing with other mythological aspects, at least I spoke that language. I wasn’t trying to sort things out in a foreign tongue I learned as an adult.

RICK: Yeah. That it sounds like you’re a bit of a seeker when you were young. You mentioned your brother had Zen flesh and bones. That book was also very influential for me. The Kabbalah then you went on as a teenager to read Huxley’s perennial philosophy on under Hills mysticism, William James is Varieties of Religious Experience, Alan Watts and things like that. So it sounds like you’re quite a seeker.

RAYMOND: I didn’t realize I didn’t think about it that way. But yeah, it was.

RICK: Well, you were interested in this kind of thing.

RAYMOND: Well, I was following my interest.

RICK: We we’re doing any kind of spiritual practice or more just reading things.

RAYMOND: While I learned to perceive Qi or Qi, studying judo. And I’ve done a lot of work attempting to apply spiritual knowledge and experience to other martial arts that I got into

RICK: how did you perceive the Qi? What did you see like auras are something? Oh, well,

RAYMOND: the I don’t get things visually like that. As far as like, perceiving, like, it’s more like a knowing

RICK: okay. You can sense it or something.

RAYMOND: But I Gilo since a palace shift and meditate is part of the whole deal. And I complained to him that while I was experiencing key, it seemed to be following my breath rather than being and think steady state. He said, Well, you’ll get over it. But I never did.

RICK: Yeah. So it sounds like it from your bio, though that you said it sounded like you were desperate for some reason. Maybe you were unhappy? Maybe you felt like there. He because you said this has got to get better. I don’t care what it costs. What How did you were just like suffering depressed and anxious what was going on?

RAYMOND: I was a high testosterone guy with a lot of interest in sex. And old fast up that my proper place in life to be a virgin celibate priest,

RICK: and why did know, my whole fast again, we mean the the self who thwarted your desires, and and so by that, I presume you mean that you just weren’t getting in successful relationships or something?

RAYMOND: Well, I got into some of it in my 20s, but it was always a hassle. And I was always punished. And things got worse and worse, as time went on, and holdfast learned how to support me in that more successfully.

RICK: Okay. Now somebody was ahead, I’m sorry.

RAYMOND: He was also just in general, torture and nothing bettering your worst eyes, junior high school bully, crawling inside of your skin and beating you up from the inside. I was like that.

RICK: Now, the way your personifying this force, or whatever it was that blocked your floor to your desires, you say that you’re calling this the self who thwarted your desires? Are you really just referring to an aspect of yourself that kind of like, you know, prevented you from fulfilling your desires? I mean, we all have twists and turns inwardly that cause us to act like idiots from time to time or to, you know, cause us to fail or to do this or that, is that what you’re referring to?

RAYMOND: In terms that I’m using today, I was referring to a major aspect of my total ego nature,

RICK: right? So it’s a component of your nature or your total makeup.

RAYMOND: And once once the Kundalini awakened and I went to a year of in Trouble, while physical agony and all the standard and very confusing Korea’s physical and mental and emotional energy level spiritual. I eventually died. The self that I was that I identified with gone never to return. That was about after about nine months in from the original awakening. But fat egos by their nature as I’ve come to understand them involve a pair of twins yes or no either Yang, good or bad the self that died was the life positive pair of that set and hold fast, who survived nicely was alive negative set. So there was nothing to balance his hostility.

RICK: So let’s get into this a little bit more. All right, see, you’d read a bunch of books you kind of made a an appeal to the universe. This has got to get better. I don’t care what it takes. And then you had a kundalini awakening. Describe that Kundalini awakening when it first hit you?

RAYMOND: Well, first it was physical, Korea’s so

RICK: all of a sudden you start shaking or gesticulating something Yeah.

RAYMOND: Right, exactly. And that was most of what was going on for a little while. And it seemed kind of boring to tell you the truth. But it continued. And as time went on, it began to hurt more and more and more and more and more, how

RICK: did it hurt emotionally, physically,

RAYMOND: physically physical agony throughout your

RICK: body or in your spinal column or were

RAYMOND: low depending on what was going on. Different person, my body would get most of the treatment at different times. But it was all over the place. And I was all over the place. So that awakening happened over the Memorial Day weekend. I was working as a carpenter. And my everything that I was doing at work got a whole lot harder and while I was being sabotaged. Oh, the saying is measured twice cut once but a carpenter wants to make time millions and measure right the first time, but that was needing to measure twice. That slows you down as not a good time for you not to have your eight hours work for eight hours pay if you’re having to slow down all the time like that.

RICK: So the Kundalini awakening that you were undergoing was hampering your ability as a carpenter. I guess you’re saying it was slowing you down?

RAYMOND: In general messing up my life? Yeah.

RICK: Well, I think a lot of people can relate to that. Who have had kundalini awakening is that you know, this is kind of major housecleaning going on or restructuring or something and it can make normal functioning difficult. You mentioned four different kinds of Korea’s and people by the way, probably most people know what Korea’s are, that usually refers to movements that happen spontaneously when Kundalini is active. He mentioned physical, emotional, intellectual and spiritual Koreas Can you can you get give examples of each of those?

RAYMOND: Not very easily. Because there was no other stuff happening at the same time and confused and completed. And especially back then I was doing a very bad job of stopping everything out.

RICK: Were the was there any bliss mixed in I mean, sometimes people go through all kinds of physical various kinds of Korea’s but there’s some kind of inner experience that’s charming or Interesting.

RAYMOND: Yeah. That was in the mix too. But it honestly didn’t help all that much of standard advice for something like awaken Kundalini is stop fighting it. And I think that probably works if the actions are only happening on a personal individual level. But when they’re happening on many more levels on that, any attempt to just stop resisting it is not going to work very well. The only thing it actually did, when I was trying to seriously do that would be to get hold fast to pick up his ears and say, so you want to not resist something? Oh, I’ll give you something that resist. And then I’ll give you something harder than that resist.

RICK: So did you feel that you were resisting? And you were trying to stop resisting? Or what?

RAYMOND: No, I felt that attempting to control things, by any individual action of my own was useless to

RICK: stopping or starting, or starting or stopping resistance was irrelevant, because you just didn’t have any control to do anything.

RAYMOND: Well, except that if folks asked No, that’s what I was attempting to do that. I told you, right, then you’re left

RICK: with even more. Right? Yeah. And this cat, this reference the whole facet? Well, you’ve already covered this, I mean, it does sound like you’re kind of like attributing this influence to some alien force or something extraneous to you. But really, what you’re saying is just a component of your, of your individual makeup, it’s like and it was messing with your various, whatever it was inner drives or whatever they were messing with your life, and you just named them holdfast.

RAYMOND: Later on, I was given a new perennial psychology, the nature of the ego became much more clear to me. And

RICK: so we’ll talk about that when we want to get into that,

RAYMOND: that, that, that’s got to come later. Okay, we’ll get to that. But in practice, they come up with this theory about what might be going on. And there was always some hostile force. And he always got named old fast. And I changed my theories and zeros was still something going on. And he stayed named all

RICK: of you could have named it Betty Boop, or something. Right. But you just chosen a whole fest,

RAYMOND: blah, blah. It was descriptive. All right. Okay.

RICK: Yeah. Um, so you mentioned that it was kind of interfering with your carpentry and he said constantly sabotage usually minor mistakes. So you were working less efficiently. You said, and you were, I guess making some mistakes and you eventually got laid off, right? Yeah. Okay.

RAYMOND: I’ll tell you tell you a couple stories about already. Guys, round supply which sheeting up the parapet wall, and all that stuff hanging up above it. The pub, the framing, six or eight inches, because it was just faster to let that run wild nail it and face and have some of the go up on top and saw the excess off. So I had my worm drive saw. I had the card back. I was running along, cutting the top of a piece of plywood off. Finished the cut blade. So ring, my arms jerk didn’t. Yeah, I was able to stop it. Or that was been a much different story. But it’s the kind of thing that gets your attention.

RICK: Yeah. Now, what was the guy’s name? I read a book recently by a fellow hopefully his name will come to me. He’s somebody I’ve interviewed. And I actually wrote a blurb for his book, but he also had this hellacious Kundalini experience. And he felt like it was prompting him to do things which the an external observer would describe as suicide. silently, you know, like, one time, I think he was in the bath or something. And he he jumped out naked and ran to his porch and got up on the railing, squatting like a frog and could easily have fallen off and killed himself. And, you know, and there were a lot of things like that, where he just totally lost control in this forest, whatever it was took over. So, it sounded like, that sounds like that’s the kind of thing you’re talking about here.

RAYMOND: Well, right, but the Kundalini was a question establishing structure that let the conflict between myself and holdfast play out. And the actual problems shafted me Kundalini was observing and didn’t give a damn how any of it came out. But the human conflicts involved were indigenous to me.

RICK: Yeah. Raphael Krishna, that was the guy’s name. Now, usually, people are told that Kundalini is a benign force ultimately, but then it can really put you through hell, if there’s a lot of purging or purification to do like Gopi Krishna famously wrote his that book about everything he went through.

RAYMOND: Read that before this stall got started. Yeah. Didn’t encourage me.

RICK: Yeah, it was like, I don’t want that. So but now after it’s been very, it’s It’s been decades since this awakening happened. Do you feel in retrospect that something good was happening the whole time, despite how difficult it was, and that Kundalini is in fact that benign force or do you not agree with that,

RAYMOND: in practice, Kundalini is a wrecking ball shoe will move into some established territory and knock it apart. And that can be take a long time for any given issue and be troubling and painful. And occasionally, you know about the descending phase. So, Shiva called crippa

RICK: explained it to us

RAYMOND: um, Shakti and I use the Hindu setup because that seems to be the best worked out Shakti in her dissent from from Shiva is the create search function, which bodies for the universe and the world and you and me plan it turns from downwards to upwards flow that upwards flow is Kundalini. Now, Shiva is still an abiding and motionless, but possesses a downwards capacity, which is called crippa. And the creative process in general, involves shufti moving in and tearing apart stuff that is in the way of for regrowth. And that takes a while and a turd So, and every once in a while to fate smiling, you will get a brief descent of crip ah, who takes a look at things and sparks the regeneration and a newer, healthier pattern.

RICK: But that’s well put. So when you say it’s like a wrecking ball, I mean, they don’t use wrecking balls on perfectly good buildings, they use them to knock down something that’s supposed to be knocked down, and then something better is rebuilt in its place. So it sounds like what the process you’re describing is that there’s this sort of alternate destruction and restructuring perhaps involving what you calling Shiva and Shakti here, and that, you know, as a I mean, if you were living in a building that’s being hit by a wrecking ball wouldn’t be a pleasant experience, and we are living in this body. So the restructuring of it can oftentimes be a very difficult experience. And there are a lot of variables, obviously, it depends upon the, the rapidity or the speed with which it happens. If it’s really intense and happening fast, then it can be a wild ride, or it could be, you know, take 10 times as long and be very slow and not be so difficult. And it also depends on how much debris or how much needs to be cleared away. Some people might have a mountain of it others just a molehill. That’s I guess why everybody’s experience is different.

RAYMOND: And how much juice is involved? If there’s a lot frozen stuff, a lot of energy, working in something that’s not moving at all. It’s like the difference between the dam busting my behind a 10 foot long lake or 100 foot long week? long wait, how much damage that waterfall that flood does? Depends on the size of the how much water you do.

RICK: Yeah, exactly. And, and that’s why they’re all kinds of methods and methodologies and recommendations and whatnot, for smoothing out this process. For instance, well, I’ve interviewed a number of people who actually consult with people who have had Kundalini experiences or Kundalini awakenings. And in many cases, they’re able to help them have it go more smoothly by prescribing certain practices or techniques or whatever. But you’re kind of on your own when this happened.

RAYMOND: I was on my own, and I was pretty dubious about how much hope was anybody was gonna be able to offer me anyway. Yeah.

RICK: They might have been but that was a long time ago. I mean, who knows if he’d gone to India and found the right teacher or something, maybe would have gotten some help. But what was this about driving with eyes closed?

RAYMOND: Yeah. A week or so after the incident with the parapet wall. I was driving to work one morning and my eyes closed. California rush hour freeway. problem that right recommended. He didn’t tell us to do that. And Driver’s Ed anyway. So I finished the dry with one hand on the wheel and one hand holding one I open Wow.

RICK: It took physical force to keep it open.

RAYMOND: Oh, yeah, there was no way I can control it, just by voluntary muscles.

RICK: And what was the feeling? I mean, we can all voluntarily close our eyes we never feel forced to was it just like you were just physically incapable of using your eyelid muscles to keep your eyes open? What did you feel was forcing your clothes to close them?

RAYMOND: It just happened. Hmm. Things happen. You don’t? You can figure them out later on. Yeah.

RICK: So it’s not like you were feeling drawn inwardly into samadhi or something? It was just that boom eyes. No eyes close.

RAYMOND: It was just I was being talked with Yeah. Early in March, I got laid off. So all the energies that I had been spending at work were suddenly didn’t have that involved. And I didn’t recognize this time, but within a week or so of getting laid off the ego major ego that I associated with myself was gone. Just gone. Didn’t experience it, dying or anything that way that but it wasn’t there anymore. Never did come back.

RICK: How do you find ego?

RAYMOND: I define ego as somewhere along the line the human animal. Anthropologist make a distinction between anatomically modern humans and behaviorally modern humans. And we’ve been behaviorally modern for maybe a third of the time of the time that we’ve been around as a grown brownie. Ice think that that is associated with the invention of language, which is something that creatures have never had to deal with as far as we can tell, since at least the quotations explosion. So, the ego as I understand it was a mediating structure, a psychological intervention designed to reconcile our organic and non language using nature, with our, with the new demands and unprecedented demands that that language imposes on us. So, he knows the structure of that particular invention.

RICK: Word ego, would the phrase a sense of personal self be synonymous with ego and your terminology.

RAYMOND: These things get really tricky. Any critter that can move away from danger, and move towards safety, or move away from someplace where you’re hungry, and go where you can get food, that kind of a sense of self is something that any creature has, yeah,

RICK: like, if I burned my hand, there’s, I pull my hand off the off the stove or whatever, if a dog steps on something hot, it pulls its paws away. So same.

RAYMOND: That’s not ego, okay? That’s the sense of self, that any creature has modulate it through their own body and nervous system, right. And

RICK: it’s valuable. And it protects us from injuring ourselves.

RAYMOND: It’s essential. And, and it is also mediated divine consciousness, modulate through one particular structure or another.

RICK: Yeah. And if I burned my hand, it’s my hand that’s being burned. It’s my hand that feels pain. It’s not some guy in the next town, I wouldn’t know if he burned his hand. So there’s a sort of a localized quality to experience that

RAYMOND: things are going right, if you shook your hand up, because the guy in the next town, burned his hand. That’s just nuts.

RICK: It would be especially if I had to do that for everything everybody’s experiencing so. So our experiences is kind of localized. And, you know, and that’s that sense we have a sense of person’s personal self or we associate with our sense with our own sensory, the sensory experiences that this particular apparatus is affording us. And we don’t you what you’re saying is we don’t lose that. But then what do we lose if the ego if there’s ego death?

RAYMOND: Well, let’s talk about all the game with the ego construction. Because the nature of the I talk about ego holons using Kessler’s tournament terminology, and hole is a hole which is comprised of smaller goals within it, and the self an aspect of some larger goal.

RICK: Yeah, so, for instance, our body which has liver and kidneys and heart and lungs and various components, altogether is a whole lot made of those components. Right. Right. Okay. And I like your description of that in your book where you were contrasting it with hierarchy. I don’t know if it’s a book but the things you sent me were in a hierarchy, there’s greater importance given to things you know, higher up on the hierarchy. But we wouldn’t say our our kidneys are more important than our liver or something. All these components of of our Holon are just, you know, all essential.

RAYMOND: Right? So, the human ego is a structure of many different holons and the nature of every bull on ego Holon is the same. It starts with a wound, which are very difficult to come by, and anytime in human life. It creates a shell and within the shell. First off, the shell protects the wound And part of that is good. I don’t want anybody rubbing salt in my wounds, but it also protects the wound from healing. And the persistence of the existence of that wound is what powers the existence of a given ego Hold on. From that wound springs, a pair of twins, a yes and a no good and bad and set distinction, which is the same distinction that the non dualist deplore and want to get rid of, is part of the function of the ego that reconciles being non dual nature of our organic beating with the additional complications of our verbal nature.

RICK: I see. So, let me see if I understood that. So, we have a non dual dimension to our existence, and it has to interface with the dual world with the relative world. And I think you just said that, correct me if I’m wrong, that the ego helps to reconcile that or inter mediate between the sort of absolute and relative aspects of life, is that what you said?

RAYMOND: Well, it mediates between the non dual organic selfness that creature has, with the world created by language,

RICK: okay. Now, most creatures don’t use language, or at least not the kind of the way we do. And the world exists for them. Being without language, the you know, the rabbit is hopping around and eating grass and experiencing a world. So let’s respond to that in order for us to understand better what you’re saying.

RAYMOND: Well, there’s a whole world of creation and existence and understanding that we have only by virtue of the fact that we’re a language using species. You can know nobody and your, your rabbit doesn’t worry a whole lot about Democrats and Republicans, or the divine right of kings. Yeah. Or how soon the Roman Empire is gonna fall. None of that stuff matters, on that organic creature level. All of the complex human cultures that we’ve had going since we stopped since we started gardening, and gave up on foraging cultures, none of those could have happened without the existence of language, and the capacities that language bestow on us.

RICK: Right, and not only language, I mean, just the, their features of our intelligence by virtue of our cerebral cortex and you know, things that are uniquely human that animals simply don’t have all they have their own types of intelligence, even trees do. But you know, I’m sitting here talking to you, computer camera, Internet, and my dog is here on the floor, has no idea what these things are or why I’m talking or to whom I’m talking or anything else is this a different same world objectively, but very different interpretation between me and the dog.

RAYMOND: Bear in mind anatomically human beings have been around for 250 300,000 years. We’ve had behavioral you modern human beings, for maybe 70,000 60,000, something like that, depending on how you slice it. So anatomically, we’re no different. But with the addition of language is I contend we were we gained a whole new set of capacities, and a whole new set of problems. And those problems were entirely foreign to our organic nature. We didn’t have them and now we do

RICK: right. Do You see that as a devolution or as an evolution

RAYMOND: there’s no doubt in the world that our evolution as as a species was aided by the capacities of language. But at the same time, it’s really expensive stuff. Yeah.

RICK: So it’s a mixed blessing. But yes, but here we are, and we have it. And that’s the way it is. And, you know,

RAYMOND: and the ego is apparently what makes that possible. Right?

RICK: And, okay, so just to recap, then you’re saying that the ego became a necessity, and perhaps, came into existence? Simultaneous with the development of language, and it was necessary, but it also has its downside. Is that is that for the first statement? Yes. Okay. And so obviously, when you experience ego death, as you said, You did, you didn’t lose the ability to speak. So somehow you were still, you know, verbal, and yet, you didn’t have this ego that you’re saying, arose historically, with the advent of language.

RAYMOND: Right? Okay. I actually view ego as a developmental stage, not different, in essence, than the terrible T,

RICK: kind of an adolescent stage maybe of human development. Pretty much. In fact, in your, in your writing, I heard you say that, you know, you need it when you’re young, but when you’re in your 20s, it may be ideally, time to drop it.

RAYMOND: Right. And if we understood better, the nature of the ego, as as a culture, we would probably understand how to raise children in ways that give the most benefits with the least cost. It’s craziness, in their development of ego, and in ways that will make dropping the ego once that’s appropriate, a fairly easy thing to do. Uh huh.

RICK: But because of the way we’re raised, it generally either doesn’t happen at all, or if it does, it’s not easy.

RAYMOND: Well, the way we’re raised right now, it drives us crazy, self destructive.

RICK: So, ego, historically, it has been a sort of a evolutionary development that accompanied the development of language. And in in the course of a human beings life. ego develops perhaps commensurate with our language abilities developing, and it serves an essential function throughout our childhood and adolescence. And ideally, that function can have done its duty by the time we’re in our 20s. And it can drop off again. So right, so far, so good, right? In terms of what I just said. Yes, okay. Exactly. Now, you had a major Ego Death decades ago, and you’ve been living life ever since. And so how is it? How is it that how does life go? Having undergone a major ego death? What’s the experience of it it? Is it advantageous to have had an ego death? If you mentioned how, initially you weren’t functioning as well. But do you eventually function better if the ego isn’t in the driver’s seat?

RAYMOND: See, the problem is he has a twin from the one who died is the one that I call hold fast. And he’s in the driver’s seat.

RICK: But isn’t he part of the ego?

RAYMOND: Yeah, but the ego is not one lump. I started by saying he will give us a pair of twins. Yes and no good or bad. That is the very kind of distinction that language makes and our organic being doesn’t. The rabbit doesn’t worry about left on the top 40 or do any sort of decision like that at all? It doesn’t need to. But what happened with me is I had These two major ego states, which were occupying different parts of our freight body, I call they’re ours, something like that our CI structure. And one of them died and the other one didn’t. The one who died was the pro life one. And the one who survived was the Dalai Lama,

RICK: then it wasn’t a complete ego death, only one component of the ego died.

RAYMOND: If you were actually working on on making the ego, you’re gonna go through death after death after death after dynasty. It’s a complicated, self reinforcing complex structure full of ego holons and a whole bunch of different confirmations, work working together or against each other, as occasion arises, then, necessity dictates. So I have no idea how my ego hold on Zack, you’re

RICK: kind of like Whack a Mole?

RAYMOND: Pretty much.

RICK: So what you’re saying then is that, and you’re not only speaking of you, you’re speaking of people in general, that the ego is there’s a whole lot of holons you would call them a whole lot of components in it. And you don’t just have a black and white night and day shift to, you know, ego running the show to no ego anymore. You could spend a lifetime working out dissolving or whatever word you want to use getting rid of these different holons.

RAYMOND: Well, mostly, I need an attacker totally his. His story is correct. He had vanished all at once. So it’s not impossible. Yeah. Certainly not the way it worked for me. But if it worked for me the way it worked for Eckert totally, I wouldn’t have spent 20 years in preparation. Before I was given a new perennial psychology, which included and talked about how to deal with the ego as a structure.

RICK: Aha, we should get onto that, actually. But I guess just in response to what you just said, again, everybody’s different, you know, Eckhart Tolle and the Buddha and Ramadan, and, you know, some of these, and some of that, yeah, I mean, he went through two years on a park bench, not being able to really do much of anything, but before he became a bit more integrated, and, you know, Ramana, Maharshi, sat in Samadhi, and in a pit with insects chewing into his legs, you know, oblivious to that, and then many years in a cave, before he began to interact with the public. And so we’re also different, you know, we all have, we could say, bundles of karma, or components to our makeup that are different. And then as you were saying, before, with your dam analogy, you know, some of us have just a little puddle behind the dam, others have a, you know, huge gigantic Lake, and when the dam breaks, that’s gonna result in differences in the force of the flow. And so there’s all these different variables, you know, so you can’t really nail it down as to one thing or another. Yeah, that works. Yeah. All right. So I think we’re getting along here so you had that ego death you didn’t recognize it not until you’re deep into it for a while it was peaceful and easy life running on grease bearings, allowing for I was allowing for you’re still in physical agony. Within a few weeks, it’s I’m reading your notes within a few weeks it started some subsidiary selfhood emerge, run my life vanish, many of them bizarre and unpredictable. If one got me into trouble, so what he wouldn’t be around to pay the piper and went on like this for months. And this is actually a fairly common theme with spiritual practitioners. That sometimes exacerbated by intense programs like, you know, six month meditation course or something like that, where something bubbles up and it creates all this drama when it’s bubbled up and then it gets dissolved and Ah, okay, that’s over with and then another thing bubbles up, and it just keeps going. Like you’re saying, you just keep whack a mole in these different components that bubble up and so I think you were experiencing something like that, don’t you think? Yeah. Yeah,

RAYMOND: yeah. Yeah, it was in that period that, that I had my first experience of the non dual, which I experienced as the conviction that anything with that was capable of the sense of it. I know, this is me, this is me and not that that sense of eyeness was identical in any other creature.

RICK: I don’t understand.

RAYMOND: If, if, if you have a sense of eyeness and I have a sense of anus, and the chipmunk in the tree has a sense of anus. They’re all the same minus, they’re identical. They’re all manifestations of one mystery.

RICK: Okay, so you’re saying that all beings, their sense of eyeness is similar in some fundamental way. So what you’re saying shut down identical, okay, because it’s the same I ultimately write the self of the chipmunk and the self of you and I, the same self and the self of the human self in the universe, right? The Gita talks about seeing the self in all beings and all beings in the self. So you had this oneness experience and then and, and that pertains to what you just said about the second eyeness Seeing the self in all beings.

RAYMOND: My name for for non dual awareness is mutual aliveness.

RICK: Meaning seeing the self and all being seen, recognizing that we’re all there’s only one of us, right? Yeah. Okay.

RAYMOND: So recognizing is too abstract. I mean, it’s just that’s it. That’s the experience.

RICK: Yeah. Good. Yeah, that makes sense. I’m sure people relate to that. Um, okay. And you were you said, you were like, running huge volumes of Qi. So in other words, the energy was coursing through you. But you kept getting hijacked. You mentioned by these, you know, holons these different components of the self? And what would what would happen when these hijackings occurred? I mean, would you like take on different personalities? Or would you just start doing crazy things? Or what?

RAYMOND: Within Limits? I wasn’t? I wasn’t taking off my solution squatting on the balcony. But yeah, I go for a walk and never know exactly who I was going to be or how I was going to be behaving or what my point on the world was, I just find out what was on the filter that day by what I was, or how I behaved or

RICK: I mean it. Was your behavior egregious in any way? Or were you just sort of did you surprise yourself because you seem to be running on automatic and you would say and do things that you hadn’t anticipated?

RAYMOND: I wasn’t startling any riots or anything. I was just if anybody knew me, they would find my behavior one day to the next surprising and surprisingly variable.

RICK: Can you give us an example.

RAYMOND: I’m not normally an aggressive guy. But I was that particular day when somebody stolen something or another from the woman that I happen to know. And I address them behaving as though I’m not somebody you ought to be messing with. And he handed it back to me, which would not happen normally. And I returned it, but it was perfectly normal behavior for who I was that day.

RICK: Yeah, that’s interesting. Yeah, I’ve seen I’ve been around some people whom I would consider quite highly enlightened armas, a case in point the so called hugging saint and the behavior can be quite mercurial you know, I mean, crying one minute laughing the next angry the next. And it’s not like the kind of craziness it’s more like, since she’s seeing one person after another every few seconds. It’s like kind of a flexible adaptation to each new circumstance and not being hidebound by habitual tendencies.

RAYMOND: Well, that goes on but it’s also the additional love factor is that you have different ego identities, taking parts and the whole mix

RICK: for different ones come to the fore according to the need.

RAYMOND: Well, I don’t know why. If I had to guess, I guess that these were subsidiary egos that were manifesting themselves as they collapse, because they were see over the fighting ego that died. And that was a structure that supported the subject since subsidiary holons.

RICK: So do you think all these subsidiary holons or subsidiary egos can eventually be purged or cleared cleared out in a person? And that, you know, some of the spiritual exemplars throughout history had actually resolved or dissolved all of them? Or is as long as you’re alive? Are you still going to be working on?

RAYMOND: You can certainly. Okay, I make a distinction between context and content context. For this purpose, there’s the various ego holons have entire structure, what I what I call the ego tree. And within any ego Hold on, there’s a part of you, that is essentially stuck within that structure. And when the ego hole is dissolved, then show the contents, the self that has been in prison there is released, enlarge that comment. Use, they used to talk about enlarging some of the foreign prison, which is pretty much the experience. So the more of the ego structure is gone, the more of the context is gone, the more free to kill and participate in life, the various contents are. Yeah,

RICK: that makes sense. So these ego holons, kind of bind up your life flow, or your CI or whatever you want to call it, they restrict it. And they, they can, it’s well, I mean, there’s various Sanskrit terms, like some scars, which just like impressions and the impressions, kind of gunk up the works and prevent the free flow of energy and intelligence and creativity, and spontaneity and your behavior. And as these things are released and resolved and eliminated, you become more intelligent, more creative, more conscious, more blissful, you know, more spontaneous in your behavior. And presumably, there comes a time when you resolve them all or you resolved enough of them, such that you know, liberation takes place and you’re no longer it’s a it’s tricky, because obviously, the All people have have their conditioning and their habits and their tendencies, regardless of how enlightened there may be. But there seems to be a tipping point at which enough has been resolved that, you know, Brahman becomes the charioteer, so to speak, and you’re in the backseat?

RAYMOND: Well, as I understand it, you’re much better off, you can go all the way and just reduce ego structures to zero.

RICK: Well, that’s what I’m getting at, can you.

RAYMOND: I’m working. You got to bear in mind that we’re talking about statistical universe. So one here, yeah. So how much this applies to anybody else in the universe? That that would be a matter for research. If somebody wanted to track research says

RICK: Yeah. And you know, I have other people in mind as we’re having this conversation and, you know, kind of thinking of famous historical examples, people I’ve spoken with and everything else. And you know, we just all have different roads to hoe different different loads to start with. And, and personally, I don’t think of this as a one lifetime project. I think it’s it’s an ongoing thing that we’ve probably been working on for a long time and will continue to be

RAYMOND: Well, that may be or for all I know, somebody goes to scan does or us and collects a bunch of things. Like, just in combination, throws them all together, shoots them down that Earth and watches the show.

RICK: Oh, no. Yeah, no, some people say it that way that it’s like, it’s not like the same soul going from life to life progressing along, but it’s like, God just dips a bucket into the ocean of karma. And plop there goes a human being, and he’s got a new toy to play with.

RAYMOND: Well, we may be able to answer some of that stuff with adequate research, but we don’t have enough knowledge of how to approach any of this to obsess now that that’s not a falsifiable question at this point.

RICK: Yeah, there is research and but I don’t want to take up too much of our time with this, because we have a lot to talk about. But I’m Dr. Ian Stevenson from the University of Virginia and he has a successor whose name eludes me at the moment but has done a did extensive research with children who remember past lives, you know, 1000s of kids, he studied, and they sometimes went to the village where the kid had supposedly lived, and he knew he could name the people and say all kinds of stuff. But anyway, that

RAYMOND: He also described one instance where a child was born with the memories and scars relating to the wars fought by the village hero, they had a big statue of them in the bill, middle of the town. But the only problem was, he was a purely mythological figure, everybody knew it. Which sort of leaves the whole issue more open, then we’re personally able to even try and solve

RICK: interesting remind me of that later, because I’d like to interview that guy, one of these days, the guy who took over for instance, and son, and that would be an interesting point to bring up. But let’s get on with your story. So where we left off, he said, by the end of that year, the year of your big awakening, and you had gone through a Joseph Campbell style hero’s journey, except the returning with boons part, you felt like you had earned a happy ending, but no bones for me. Like no soup for you. Let alone every anyone else your life got even worse. So what’s up? What’s with that?

RAYMOND: Well, I’ve already laid that out. Hand had Ptolemy that was able to stand up to hold fast and it was a fight. And he was gone. But Wes was right. There was nothing to stop them from stopping me. Anyway. You please. So there you go.

RICK: Yeah. So you said like healthy living healthy diet, healthy exercise? Nope. Woods walking martial arts, social life? Nope. If you’d wanted it, he wanted you not to have it. You’ve been celebrated against your will for 40 years. So what do they call those? There’s a name for that these days. In cells are some of the involuntary celibate people. But in any case, it sounds like, you know, this thing really had a grip on you. And, you know, I mean, some people listening to this, they might say, Well, geez, you know, I mean, can’t you adopt a healthy diet? Can’t you make yourself exercise? It sounds like you just really weren’t in control. And you just didn’t have a whole lot of freewill go at this stage. A lot of volition.

RAYMOND: free wills, one of those tricky things. If you decide to exercise, and the next day, your muscles are all sore. Well do all those muscular cells so free well. It kinda depends on where you’re standing, what Free will means and free food. But as far as me and the conduct of my life there was nothing there my choice that I wasn’t, I didn’t live in a whole lot different but Ted allowed my own options.

RICK: Yeah. So you just felt like life was you were kind of caught in the stream and you’re you didn’t have a whole lot of ability to swim one way or the other. You go Where the stream took you?

RAYMOND: There are lots of areas where I can make some choices or another No. Go on find work at one spot and then not another. But see overall seen? No, I didn’t have a whole lot of choice about that. Yeah,

RICK: I must say that there are there are spiritual practices, for instance, the use of mantras, which part of it is not just to transcend or get onto pure consciousness or something, but to kind of enliven what you might call laws of nature, which results in your life flowing more successfully, getting more fulfillment of desires and things like that is part of the package. And sometimes one can have spiritual awakening without that kind of assistance. And, you know, there’s something very interesting happening a deep spiritual level, but one’s relative life sort of goes to crap, you know, it can’t really do things as you might like in the relative world.

RAYMOND: I worked like a dog I slaved a research this and that the other any number of things, year upon year after year. Would I have done? And at the end of the 20 years, I was given a new perennial psychology, Chip. And that to me, would I have done the work necessary to receive that? If I had any free choice, no matter? No.

RICK: So in other words, all this difficulty you went through all the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, actually, were prepper preparation for you to be able to receive this new perennial philosophy, you were being kind of cooked to the point where you could receive it. Is that what you just said?

RAYMOND: Well, whether that was anybody’s intention, and it may have been, or just the way things happen,

RICK: they happen to us? Oh, yeah. Interesting. Okay, so we’re gonna get down to that in a minute. But um, this is a nice bit, you said, What mattered was first do no harm. Since I could not guarantee that I kept my mouth shut. But um,

RAYMOND: well, I, I, I, I used to do healing and teaching and things, not commercially, just stuff comes up. In the end, you step in an emergency or something like that. I stopped doing that.

RICK: Because he wanted to be sure not to do any harm.

RAYMOND: Yes, exactly. I couldn’t guarantee that. And I was personally expensive, because that was just, it’s rewarding stuff to be doing. Yeah. But except for a few people who are grandfathered. I, I stopped doing that, because I didn’t have a moral choice other otherwise,

RICK: who I really admire that? I mean, you know that you had that moral priority? I think that’s really good. And obviously, it’s not all that common sometimes. So then you met Swami Muktananda. And tell us that story. I’ve got some notes here, bro. You just tell us?

RAYMOND: Well, he was at the Oakland, California ashlea. They

RICK: still have that there.

RAYMOND: And somebody said, Jada, check them out because he seems to be relatively low bullshit. And I went, visit them and give them Prasad. I asked him about Kundalini. And he told me, yes, that was real Kundalini, and it was a good experience, and you’ll have lots more good experiences. Oh, boy. Wait, everybody around. He’s that was a great prediction. But I was horrified.

RICK: Yeah. He didn’t want more of that. And he gave me a shock teapot.

RAYMOND: Right. He said, he’ll go ahead. It was recognizably the same stuff that I was working with. So

RICK: felt like the same energy. I mean, yeah, yeah.

RAYMOND: And I spent most of my time spent a month or two hanging around they’re trying to figure things out. Oh, so what I was trying to figure out was, how we go we would it be shows Everybody came in telling wonderful, fun stories about their experience. And, you know, they talked about somebody on a bicycle driving by the Astromon, getting hit by Shakti pot. And how were their people piling up in the ambulances? If, if my Kundalini experience was typical, so I included the traveling mine wasn’t so typical. Yeah. But I still thought the man was playing with fire.

RICK: Yeah, is that thing again about the different variables, you know, the amount of water flow flowing from the broken dam, and you know, the shape and size of the Valley into which it’s flowing, and so on. A lot of these people, like you said, here in your notes, he said, your tentative conclusion was a must, must not have a lot of spiritual oomph. So it just may be that some of them weren’t just weren’t getting a lot of them weren’t getting blasted by as much Shakti or, as you were. Or it might have been that they had fewer blocks to clear. And so the it flowed more smoothly, hard to say, or both of the above?

RICK: Did you fit so you hung around there for a month or two? Was that healing at all? Did you feel like it helped help to smooth things out?

RAYMOND: I was just curious and trying to figure it out. How he got away with it?

RICK: In his own experience, I mean, how the hell he managed that level of of Shakti without exploding?

RAYMOND: How are you going to take people coming out to the streets, sit them down, hit him with Shakti pot? And not have me on this call? I see what you mean. Are people jumping out for bridges or whatever?

RICK: Yeah, well, that happens to I mean, in spiritual scenes, and I’ve been on in situations where people literally jumped off buildings and killed themselves. And of course, you know, that happens at colleges, too. It’s not just a spiritual thing, but happens at the Apple manufacturing company in China, they have net built so people won’t jump. But I, you know, my thought would be that, you know, if you don’t have a huge amount of receptivity, you can get a nice, high from getting Shakti pot, but it’s not going to totally rock your world. It’s, for the most part, the whole edifice of your whole on I guess you would call it is unchanged. It’s not, it’s just sort of, you know, got given a little juice by the Shakti pot. But in your case, the AD FS was being like hit with the wrecking ball, as you said, and so that’s why I think your experience was was so difficult compared to the most of the people who saw their for lack

RAYMOND: of any better. No explanation. Yeah, that was my guess.

RICK: Yeah, it’s probably true. Um, okay. Then. So you set out to learn anything you could that might help you live to the next opening Psychology, History, archaeology, anthropology, particle and astrophysics, evolutionary theory and human evolution, many spiritual disciplines. So, how long did that period happen when you were studying all that stuff?

RAYMOND: 20 years. Wow.

RICK: And this is all in preparation for the next spiritual opening that you anticipated.

RAYMOND: That was us trying to save my ass next time. Something like that came down. Yeah. Yeah, ideally, to avoid it, but I didn’t. I knew that wasn’t gonna happen. Uh huh. I they wanted to come shoe at least halfway shaven saying.

RICK: Yeah. Um, well, it sounded like, you know, you alluded to a good thing that happened, which was that you? You know, you receive this download of wisdom or knowledge and all the difficulties that you had gone through. Were preparatory for that for so perhaps all this study was preparatory for that too.

RAYMOND: Sure. Yeah. Else in a similar situation, study a whole bunch of different things and probably come up with the maybe something just as good but then terribly different. Who knows?

RICK: He said this little note here, he said, meeting. Bositis, not important, but a good story. What was that?

RAYMOND: I was one of the friends was grandfathered in. I was coming over occasionally and trying to help her. Cancer was sick and not recovering and the vet did not offer a whole lot of hope. I came over and tried this and tried that later on and nothing much was working. And I finally said, The only thing that I can think of that might possibly help would be the call for the essence of Katniss and see if that was willing to do anything for this particular individual cat. He said, Okay, so like the

RICK: cat diva or something. Yeah,

RAYMOND: exactly. And that’s exactly what I got. You know, those Egyptian statues with a cat sitting up later. She deemed the Fit herself from floor to ceiling in the apartments. Radiant, glowing impossible. Showed up gave a flick of attention to the cat vanished

RICK: tournament. So you mean you actually saw something like that?

RAYMOND: Not with my physical eyes. But yeah,

RICK: yeah, like, like you said before, it was intuitive knowing so you saw some kind of cat Deva, show up, heal the cat and leave?

RAYMOND: Well, she did something to the cat. My friend was delighted. The cat by report came down with a case of say inflation. Her attitude seemed to be capable. You expect me? Cable is a little heavier. That’s funny. Cable.

RICK: There’s all kinds of cat jokes like that. Cats think that God?

RAYMOND: A cat went on to live a couple more years. So wasn’t all that

RICK: happy story. I love cats.

RAYMOND: I was standing there wondering how I’ve managed to be that stupid again. But fortunately, she didn’t do anything to me.

RICK: Why were you stupid?

RAYMOND: fiddling around with any sort of goddess or? You? You You cannot negotiate with something? Or the power differential? Is that great. Those towers and TVs, the buzzer? Angels, that there’s a lot more things they can do to you, then you can do them. Yeah.

RICK: I mean, you wouldn’t want to invite something that you didn’t understand you what you’re inviting, but But I presume some of them are benign. And at least sounds like this one was?

RAYMOND: Yeah, it’s just you taking a health risk?

RICK: Yeah, maybe there’s a way of doing it safely, where you don’t end up inviting, say the wrong thing. But you know, you just elicit the aid of positive forces? Yeah, I think there are, I think there are ways there’s a whole thing in the Gita about how you support the gods, and they support you. And obviously, that differs from, you know, some kind of demonic activities or something like that.

RAYMOND: But I was waiting, it wasn’t

RICK: just happen. Okay, so now let’s get to the important stuff. I mean, not that this other stuff hasn’t been important. But in January of 2001, you were given stocking the ego with gun and camera, which sounds like the title of a book. You don’t know where it came from. So this is the thing you alluded to, I believe which you know, occurred there was this wisdom download after 20 years of hell and preparation. So tell us about that.

RAYMOND: It took five years plus to get it all written down. It I want a top myself to write I was all for clear, simple, brief. Don’t confuse anybody. So when I received this stuff, it was all sorted in a weird sort of blank verse. And I tried to rewrite it in English. I got the instant writer’s block. But I get chunks of stuff and read it down chunks stuff and write it down. and write something down. And six months later I write something down and take it over there and recognize that’s where it went that fit, just like that. I have no idea where it came from, but it was someplace a hell of a lot smarter than I am.

RICK: Interesting. And it sounds like the Course in Miracles or something where it was just channeled by some, you know, by somebody who couldn’t have written it and didn’t even understand half of what it was saying.

RAYMOND: Right? All that stuff about the nature of the ego, that’s, that’s all post this book. That’s, that’s where I got all that stuff.

RICK: Yeah. So in other words, the whole download is where you got all that stuff.

RAYMOND: Right. And eventually, tapered out, in part because I was growing up and to, to receive any more. I spent the years since then, learning how to use the system, which I had no idea about when I was receiving it. So I’ve got a lot better understanding of how to make it a working system now than I used to.

RICK: It sounds like it could have been the kind of thing it was channeled from some higher source, but it could also just be your your, your own cognition of deeper mechanics of things. You know, we’re able to get in glimpses and put it all together.

RAYMOND: Well, possibly. i Yeah. Don’t feel like that, to me.

RICK: Felt like more like it was bequeath to you from some wiser being or something.

RAYMOND: If if we are intact manifestations of some larger cells, within physical dimension, the larger self might be a whole lot smarter than we are a lot of reports of, from near death experiences, and such like would indicate that how you interpret them? That’s an open question. But, you know, it might have been my grown up self helping us. Yeah,

RICK: or your higher self or whatever. But so that’s not so important as it as is what it actually is. We’re talking about here. So you said it, you know, you didn’t fully understand that when, as it was coming through, but that over time, you’ve really been been able to make sense of it. So what is it?

RAYMOND: Well, I’ve been talking a whole lot about whoever it is, is, once again, Eckhart Tolle, he didn’t have to do anything to get his awakening acceptable, a lot of suffering, and then plot what’s happened. And when people ask him, what’s the use of the ego is an evolutionary mistake, or something? He really has no clue. And I suspect that if it happened to me that way, I have no clue either. But I, I wasn’t going to get out of this without getting that cleaned when a whole bunch of others and learn to turn them into action.

RICK: What is the practical significance of this for people? And for you? I mean, what effect has it had on your life? Because I don’t think we yet have a clear understanding of what it is you’re talking about, although I imagine a lot of stuff we’ve been talking about so far today, derives from this download. But if somebody is listening to this and wondering, Oh, is there something here I can do is there’s some, you know, course or some kind of teaching that I can read that I’ll get something out of, what is it? Has it been published? Did you write a book on this? Or is it on a website or?

RAYMOND: No, I don’t. The same lopsidedness of care. Receive all this stuff. makes it impossible for me to try and broadcast it or commercialize it or turn it into a book or something like that. I just, I don’t I don’t have the right mindset to do all of that. Okay, is

RICK: it is it in a coherent written form now is a document that like if we give your email address people could ask for it, and you could send it to them.

RAYMOND: Um, I could probably do that. But I mean, the original document, the diversity still exists, and I’ll leave things out. But it doesn’t say anything about other use of them. So

RAYMOND: that book is like, folly, and one. And a lot of the stuff that I’ve written since that is

RAYMOND: pieces of how it all works together, but I don’t think anything coherent. But But all that aside, if somebody came to me and said, Will you teach me how to use your system? The first thing I would do is try and talk them out of it. Uh huh. Why? My life is an example of why it’s a risky thing to be playing with these kinds of powers.

RICK: So do you think that what you have written could be used by others to elicit the kind of experience that you had, might trigger the same sort of crisis that you went through?

RAYMOND: As an interim possible? Okay.

RICK: And so let’s say a person says, Well, I’m willing to take the risk, because I think this is interesting. So what would they receive? What would they learn? What would they do?

RAYMOND: I really don’t know. I tried on the back gap forum, publishing various chunks of this. And when people’s talked about this, or that, or the other piece of the goes, they understood it, they’d say, Here, look at the copy of this, this is what it looks like to me. And they just ignore me pretty much. So I’m not at all certain that what I write sufficiently communicates things, or maybe that we’re not sufficiently willing to listen or knows. But that I don’t have it in any kind of presentable format at this point. Okay.

RICK: So but I’m still trying to get out of you. What actually it is. And, you know, let’s say, okay, so it’s not, it’s not in a presentable format that people could access right now. But if it ever got to presentable format, what would it be? What are we talking about here?

RAYMOND: I can tell you the way I work with me, which you got the and I’m trying to do this without, without the jargon, which won’t make any sense to anybody anymore. And yet especially Charmin does. The general query to woo that the system works itself is from the top down and from the outside in, and it starts working with the smallest available ego lungs, and the further you get into it, the larger the ego lungs become, until you can have ego holons attached to the major chakras and then to larger groups, so the chakras and the further you go in, the larger the groups of chakras you are dealing with, the more power you need to deal with them safely. The more access to spiritual consciousness, you need to deal with them at all. And the Hindu system talks about the the base chakras in the sublime chakras, the base chakra are below the heart down to the root chakra, and to the sublime ones are above the heart and to the Crown Center. And then there’s a whole new the base chakra is the Center for that unit at the higher up the crown, the sublime chakras are centered at the Brow Chakra. And the hole that contains those two is centered at the heart of what’s happened was my major ego death was the issue ego of the sublime chakras died. And the ego of the Beast chakras was still alive. So, you work through this stuff until you’re able to encompass and heal your sublime chakras, and then your base chakras. And then the whole, which combines those two is the pair of twins of the larger self, that the larger unit, that center, that’s the heart. And not until you reach that point. And the unmade the chakras, the ego law, the major one corresponding to the sublime chakras, and the one from the base chakras, and then finally made to taking apart the one that center that the heart, which is compresses the whole system, when that’s point has been reached, and that set of chakras and the ego alliance is unmade, then you’re done.

RICK: That’s interesting, that now that sounded very coherent. And that made sense to me. And just to make sure I did understand it. What so what you’re saying is that, as one works through this system, the more minor or weaker impressions, if we want to call it use that word, or holons, the smaller ones get knocked off, get get worked out. But you don’t have the the depth or spiritual maturity or strength to tackle the bigger ones. And so ideally, you you will work through them progressively from smaller to bigger, and as you gain the capacity to work on the bigger ones than you do. And

RAYMOND: that’s the ideal. Yeah, ideal. So much trouble came the fact that I started with this major ego Holon system, causing the sublime chakras all at once. Without without doing any of the preliminary workup.

RICK: Yeah. So you just kind of plunged in the deep end, so to speak. And without having done enough preparatory stuff, no water rains, either. No water wings. Yeah. And that’s why traditions like Vedanta, and all have a progressive nature to them. And and, you know, the highest teachings aren’t necessarily given out to the novices. And, in fact, you know, I’ve been spending a lot of time listening to Swami Swami, syrupy Ananda who grew up in ashrams in India. And he said, You know, when you got there that you pretty much work hard for the first 10 years, you wouldn’t just sort of sit down and plunge into meditation 18 hours a day or something. Do what I say so far. Make sense that you work progressively and you you kind of, yeah, and you it’s important kind of to get things in the right order in order to not have such a hard time of it.

RAYMOND: That’s the safest way to go. Yeah.

RICK: So like, you know, the yoga system, they’ll they’ll teach you the yamas and niyamas, which are the do’s and don’ts. And similar In Vedanta, they’re sort of ethical foundations that have to be established before you can proceed on to do other things. And if you try to do it backwards, you can get yourself in trouble.

RAYMOND: All right, in the book, I say practice that I Yama, Yama,

RICK: you mentioned that? Yeah. Okay, there you go. Good. So that’s the traditional understanding. And so, in your book, in addition to sort of sketching out the whole typography of the chakras and the whole ons, and how this whole thing unfold, are you somehow offerings, practices or something that people can do to you know, progress like this through this stuff?

RAYMOND: I was to ignorance. I didn’t know enough. That’s okay. No, it was all like, just to get the basic information that Yeah, yeah. And that took me basically, another 15 years to actually learn how to apply and that stuff. So best not in that book at all. Hmm.

RICK: So you have another book in you

RAYMOND: Well, I could I don’t fancy getting something published sounds like a hell of a lot of work that I would be better spent writing about? Well, that’s what’s important to me. Yeah.

RICK: Maybe somebody else will publish it, or at some point, you know, somebody could put a website together for you. And you could have it up on that for people to download. And so I imagine that this whole process of writing all this stuff down, and working it all out and getting it orderly, has been a an evolutionary procedure for you must have helped your own development helped you work things out? Oh, yeah.

RAYMOND: Even when I was getting the first book, I take something down. And there will be corresponding changes in my CI structure. Hmm. When that was happening all the time when I was just receiving the first Yeah. And continues to happen to this day.

RICK: continues to happen means as you receive things, it has a beneficial effect. Is that what you’re saying?

RAYMOND: Yeah, as I’m, as I’m figuring things out, writing down what I’m figuring out. That’s, that’s a spiritual exercise. Absolutely. With changes in changes in my understanding, cultural changes, my tea structure changes. And in my ego structure, yeah,

RICK: I experienced that doing these interviews. I really think that some form of spiritual teaching, that, obviously can take many forms is, in itself a very potent exercise or practice for one’s own development.

RAYMOND: Well, so it’s writing things down. Yeah,

RICK: that’s it. Well, that’s a form of spiritual teaching right there.

RAYMOND: I highly recommend Yeah. Meditating sitting at your computer, and you get some insight or another, you type it down, you get some insight or another, you write it down, and you data and you, that’s your day’s work the next day, or you get down, and the next month, you write it down. And the next year you write it down, and 10 years down the line, or 20, or 30, you’ve got a treasure trove of all the work you’ve been doing for all those years, expressed in words, and exactly matching what was going on at the time. That’s so I can’t give a better piece of advice to anybody than that.

RICK: Yeah. I have a friend named Harry alto, who’s been on this program a few times. And he’s been doing that for decades. He just has all kinds of beautiful experiences. But he also just reams of journal pages, in which he writes it all down. And he feels actually, you know, my former teacher, marshy, Mahesh Yogi used to say that just what you’re saying that if you can express it somehow, by writing it down, write down your experiences, it solidifies or anchors them somehow and integrates them. Yes, I haven’t been doing it. But it sounds like it’s advised by some people.

RAYMOND: And I strongly recommend studying Carl Rogers, particularly learning, focusing, which was a refinement to speed up learning how to do it by a student of his name, gentlemen. And there are groups called changes groups all around the country, where you can go on for free, learn how to do this focusing process. And the thing about it is, you say something, you receive something, you put it in the language does that work? is normally as a dyads. Two when you’re doing it, and somebody else’s reflecting it back. But I learned to do it just on my own. So I don’t need somebody else around every time I’m doing this. So you reflected back. Is that right? You get that feeling? Yes. Is it wrong? No. Yes, it’s wrong. So it tried to begin again. So you’ve got something that works. And that feels right. And then you take the next step, you do the same thing, and the next step, and you do the same thing. So what is the Goshi ating and guiding you to this work? Is that process of asking yourself, is this right? Is this wrong? And when it’s right you go with it. Because all he was smarter than some of you, this is a way to let all you be doing the work.

RICK: That’s good. So, so it’s been like, what, 40 years or so now, since you had this Kundalini awakening? Yeah. And how are you doing now? I mean, it was fallacious in the beginning, but you’ve been doing all this, you know, work on it. And how do you feel in general now?

RAYMOND: Well, there’s a lot of ways in which my life is just still messed up. But Robert Heinlein often describes happiness as spending long hours doing something you think is really worth doing? And this is really worth doing.

RICK: That’s great. It brings you joy. Yeah. And you know, the, the kind of the suffering and it kind of gave the impression that you’re going through a meat grinder and in the early days, the feels smoother now you feel like the the intensity of the Kundalini experience has cleared a lot of stuff out. And there’s just a smoother flow of Qi if you want to use that word, and life is more fulfilling.

RAYMOND: Well, allowing for the fact that I’m still being tortured every day.

RICK: Yeah. How are you still being tortured every day?

RAYMOND: Oh, cuz fall fast is that ego hole on the the shop roll on? That’s where holdfast lives. That’s what he is. And he’s still there. And until I kill him, I still going to be tortured every day. They just

RICK: can’t crack that one. So how would you? How do you? Are you working on killing them? Yeah, by doing what?

RAYMOND: The same process that I was just describing, they shut down the computer and meditate and use the, it doesn’t look like focusing anymore, but I’m open to whatever I receive, and never sit down, intending? Well, if I’ve got some particular problem, and he shorted out, I might sit down and meditate on that. But as a general rule, I don’t intend anything. I just sit down and meditate, take whatever comes and follow up wherever it leads, and the next day do the same thing. And the, over the years, all of that stuff turns out to have a coherent nature of its own. And it’s much safer than my intellectual self, trying to figure out what to work on, and bossing the rest of the around. That’s dangerous.

RICK: So do you feel like you’re chipping away at this whole fast guy? Is he weakening at all?

RAYMOND: I would give him up on predicting or guessing or anything?

RICK: Yeah, you can’t predict but I mean, do you ever think about it? I mean, do you feel like this is he’s gonna be in control until the day I die? Or do you feel like you’ll emerge victorious at one point?

RAYMOND: If I live long enough, I will kill him. But, you know, I spent an awful lot of time over the years. Well, that major thing that must have done something or another whoops, no. Oh, how about this one? Nope. So I gave up on that happened when that happens, or Well, it’s

RICK: a good attitude, I guess. What would you expect life to be like, if you were to kill him? If

RAYMOND: you would ask me, before the Kundalini awakening, what life would be like after it has some serious spiritual experiences? I could not have. I could not have told you. I could not have anything I can see, though. Or dream that might be so far off the mark. That it’s it’s meaningless. It would have been a meaningless question. Right? And the answer, and so I’m sure it’s true today.

RICK: Yeah. So yeah, okay. I get Yeah. You just can’t really imagine what it would be like it’s kind of a dumb question. But sometimes people have a sort of a sense and then it usually turns out to be wrong, but it’s probably to your credit that you’re not speculating. So here’s an interesting thing. You see, a drop the paper, you say at the core of the ego Hold on between the pairs of opposites. There lies a layer of God imminent, experiencing the divine mystery within creation, and a deeper layer of God transcendent, experiencing that, which is prior to creation. Both conditions of being exists within every ego hold on of every human ego. That’s beautiful. That’s really profound.

RAYMOND: And very encouraging.

RICK: Yeah, yeah. But I mean, yeah, it’s encouraging in the sense that whatever person is going through, if they can realize or believe that, you know, God is at the very foundation and core of it of my life, then you kind of realize you’re never abandoned, and that there’s the possibility of becoming consciously aware of that level of existence.

RAYMOND: Yeah, I think it was Eddington said the stuff of the world is mine stuff. What? I think the stuff in the world is God stuff.

RICK: Yeah. heard the saying one time that God may be omnipotent, but the one thing he can’t do is remove himself from your heart. Because He is omnipresent, and he couldn’t possibly remove himself from anywhere. And that would include our very the core of our being.

RAYMOND: Yeah, the original Echart Easter records, I said, final leave taking is believing of God for God.

RICK: And so you say that here, you say, when people sense that we are always already enlightened, that is what they Intuit, we are always we always are that mystery, even at the core of the most malignant human ego. It’s very profound. And if it’s go ahead, you’re gonna say,

RAYMOND: No, you’re doing fine. Oh,

RICK: well, yeah, I’m talking too much, probably. But yeah, I mean, that totally makes sense to me. Just that there’s kind of a divine intelligence pervading everything. I often say this, and everything means everything, you know, even the most horrific stuff, is just that, you know, the more horrific stuff, obscures it more deeply. And that’s the whole purpose of spiritual endeavor is to thin out the obscurations to, you know, thin the veils that hide it, and eventually, it’ll shine clearly when those veils are sufficiently dissipated.

RAYMOND: I mean, talk a little bit about what happens within please. Oh, on working out it said divided by a tail. Now each fail. Division think denial and splitting it’s the same basic psychological phenomena. Something that’s not acceptable, you reject it, and it ends up on the far side of the tail. Think beyond the pale the same sort of sounds,

RICK: are you saying pale pa i L or P le? P le. Okay. To clarify a little bit what you mean by that word?

RAYMOND: Well, basically mean, that means offense, or if you’re talking about European heraldry, field is divided vertically, you get to be party per pale as your urgent, for example. Or if there’s a broad straight down the middle, best call of pay, okay?

RICK: So the spray is beyond the pale. It actually refers to the way they go ahead

RAYMOND: and the way, the way it’s normally used is for Northern Ireland. You’re done one side of the pale, you’re in Belfast, and the other side, you know, your Catholic country, in one part of the world, concerning the pale and Protestant country in the other. And it’s the same sort of, it’s a, you’re in trouble if you try and cross it business. So once the payout is established, each twin projects, all of its negatives To the other twin. So what’s your look at, if you look across the pale is all the nasty stuff that you’re projecting out there, that twin is projecting on to the other one. And that’s the terror face that best side of the pail shows to you. And the other one other twin does the same thing from the other side. So if you want to reconcile those twins, it is essential that you accept and metabolize and experience all of those negative projections before he can go any further. But when you do that, then the tail collapses, in some sense, and the stuff in one twin can wander over in the other stuff, and the other twin can wander in the other direction, and you have a creative union. When you do that creative union, you also get access to the Divine emptiness between the walls of the pail. And if you’re talking about St. John, the process system, or you got an awakening, and then the dark night of the self, and then another awakening? Well, that’s what you get when that produces what they call light mystics. And you take another step see the dark night of the soul. And that produces dark mystics. And the darkness six are the ones who are treading on non dual territory. When that card said, the fire only leave taking is leaving God for God. He’s talking about leaving the great mysticism behind and entering into the dark mysticism will have no distinctions at all. And somewhere along the line during that process, that individual ego Holon collapses, and the only things left are the contents, which are now enlarged and are freed to take a living part in the whole.

RICK: Interesting. Yeah, I think that was that was very clear, I went on No, if you want to have if you want me to see respond in some way to elicit further elaboration from you, I can do so. But that was a pretty complete statement.

RAYMOND: Well, it’s your show, Rick.

RICK: Yeah, thanks. That was good, just letting it sink in. So well, let me say, Let me recapitulate to make sure I understood it, and perhaps you’ll, you’ll come back with more. But um, when this sort of division that exists within us, is externalized. Then you have polarization and dispute between, let’s say, I don’t know, Israelis and Palestinians, or Republicans and Democrats or communists and democracies, and all that all the, you know, frictions and conflicts in the world. But those are all external manifestations of the inner division within the division within the millions of people who inhabit the world. And so what you’re advocating is a kind of a reconciliation of that division within each of us. And if that happens, then why you didn’t say this, but I imagined the external divisions would would diminish, but also enables us to gain access to a deep unity. Because the literal disunity within us has been resolved or reconciled.

RAYMOND: It’s gonna be hard put to reform the world, individual enlightenment by an individual enlightenment but more widespread it is.

RAYMOND: If we had a working culture that that could make on making the ego a standard practice, we would reduce the inherent craziness and self destructive madness that we see everywhere, in human life and back in history, by a lot.

RICK: Yeah, absolutely.

RAYMOND: How’s that actually work in practice? Once again estimator for research?

RICK: Yeah, well, as you say, it may be hard to reform the world individual enlightenment by individual enlightenment, but I would say it’s impossible to reform the world otherwise. Because if you don’t do it on that level, it’s like, it’s like saying, Okay, this forest here is all gray and, and weathered looking. How do we make it green? Well, you have to actually make each individual tree green, and then the forest will be. You got it? Yeah. And emails come in. And I think it is happening, you know, I mean, there’s this kind of proliferation of interest in spiritual awakening and actual spiritual awakening, there’s, despite all the craziness in the world, there’s, you know, something afoot on a subtle level, which is spreading and, you know, perhaps along the individual czar, being transformed along in the ways that you’ve described, you know, this sort of dissolving of these ego holons, and harmonization of inner division, this, and it’s, it’s a deep thing, and therefore, it has a lot of leverage. It could, you know, even though it’s subtle, it’s deep, and it could have a much bigger impact on external events than one might suspect.

RAYMOND: We’re in an area where technology matters to you the original Axial Age, was the result of the maturation of the Iron Age, transferring from the Bronze Age. Bronze weapons were expensive because tin was rare. Iron was cheap. That democratized violence. And made the Exedy provided the conditions to which we just terrible to be living through which various stages attempted to solve a bunch of collusion solutions, we call the Axial Age. Well, we’re living through the transition right now into the information age. And one of the best things about that is that new psychological knowledge and spiritual knowledge can spread a lot faster. Gates can spread a lot faster, too. So we’ll have to see who wins.

RICK: Yeah, it’s almost like the light and the darkness are both increasing at the same time, maybe.

RAYMOND: Well, that’s the way it works. Here, opposites

RICK: well, I’ll place my money on the light. Happier bet.

RAYMOND: That’s, that’s what I’m working towards. Yeah.

RICK: Good. We’re all on the same team. One big team. So is there anything Raymond that you want to say in conclusion, or anything, you know, really important that we somehow didn’t get to? I’m sure, I’m sure there’s tons of stuff. You’ve written hundreds of pages worth of material. But, you know, how have we done over the last couple of hours?

RAYMOND: I think we’ve done pretty well. Good, good. All right. Well, thank

RICK: you so much. I really you know, known about you for years and it’s it’s really been good to get to know you better and to spend this time with you. I really appreciate it

RAYMOND: all I got Georgia to thank you really welcome.

RICK: Do you want people to be able to get in touch with you? If they wish to? And how would they do that? I can put your email address up on your bed gap page or they can chat with you in the backcap Facebook group or what would you like to do?

RAYMOND: Well, you’re welcome to book my email address. And that will pay attention some of these talking about me at the event prep gap group or or today in the spiritual watch it reformation group. You founded the damn thing. Oh, the Association for spiritual integrity. Yeah. Be there. I will know that she didn’t respond. Okay. Good. But though Sue and by email that’s about it. Good.

RICK: All right. So on your Back at page on that yep.com I’ll put your email and people in contact if you’d like maybe they’d like a copy of your writings and stuff. And then I’ll create a post on the that gap Facebook group as I always do for this particular interview, and there will be a link to that, to that post on YouTube in the description, and also on your bat gap Facebook page. And if people want to get in there and discuss what we’ve been discussing or interact with you there, they could just click on that link. Find good. Alright, so thank you so much Raven, have really enjoyed this and I hope others have to, and you take care and we’ll be in touch. We’ll do all right. Talk to you later. Bye bye. And to those who are listening or watching, thank you for that. And we’ll see you for the next one.