Kosi Transcript

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Kosi Interview

Rick Archer: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer, and my guest this week is Kosi. Welcome Kosi I post production guy, I’ll be happy because he we just went through a whole reformatting of the titles and he said, Well I do about really long names they won’t fit. So here’s a nice really short name. And Kosi is named after a river in India, as I understand. That’s correct.

Kosi: It’s an India that’s actually one of the largest tributaries of the Ganges and or the Ganga. And it’s also a river where many of the ancient Vedic hymns were composed. So there’s quite a mythologies associated with that particular river. And it’s also considered the embodiment of Kali. Yeah, well, Kali is you know, is like a fire goddess, right? And she annihilates the mind. That’s the whole purpose of Kali. That’s the whole purpose of Shiva, really. So that’s the some of the lore associated with the Kosi. River. It’s, it’s spring or where it begins. It’s in Tibet. So it has a profound spiritual meaning.

Rick Archer: Okay, did you? Or did you just kind of assume the name? Or did some spiritual teacher give it to you?

Kosi: No, I was actually in India, when I received the name. It was a really profound mystical experience, that I’ve never really talked about, because to me, it was, first of all, it was a shock. I didn’t go to India to get a name. You know, that wasn’t my purpose. In going there. I went to actually meet Ramana’s teacher I wanted to actually be in the presence of Arunachala Shiva, the famous mountain that is in India consider to be the embodiment of Shiva. So that’s what I was there for, and had a profound experience. And then after I was in India, a good friend of mine who lives in kawaii Hawaii, really, he really encouraged me to take it on, you know, I have a lot of mystical experiences, Rick, so it wasn’t, it wasn’t something I was really interested in taking on. But with his encouragement, he felt like it was significant. And that if I took it on, there might be something, some spiritual teaching, and it for me, and he turned out to be right, because it was, it was, in a way, humiliating, you know, telling people I went to India and I came back with a name. And Gangaji was the first person that I told, and I wrote a little letter to her saying that I’ve been given this name, and I was going to start going by that name. And she didn’t actually skip a beat. she just, she just really took it on immediately.

Rick Archer: Oh, well, she calls herself Ganga J. Right. That’s right.

Kosi: So I mean, she didn’t question it wasn’t a big deal to her. And then I was Kosi, from that time forward. But what I actually learned in the spiritual aspect of it was letting go of my birth name, and everything associated with that name. So what I didn’t realize until I actually did this, was that, you know, my father gave me that name. It was a family name. My middle name is Leslie. And that was one of his favorite uncles. So he gave me that name. So I would have his initials JL w. And so it was, it was interesting, because I never thought about any of that, until I took this name on. So it was kind of a release of this heritage associated with my father. And just really, it was a realization of emptiness and India. And it was a deepening into that emptiness, you know, without the lineage or the heritage, the biological heritage to my family. My father in particular,

Rick Archer: I kind of get the impression that’s one of the main reasons people take on spiritual names is it kind of is a clean start, you know, it’s kind of reboots your life in a certain way.

Kosi: Yeah, it is. It was like, that’s a good way of thinking about rebooting your life because it was like, you know, my life before I went to see or not Silla Shiva and then after, because it was right after that experience that I was with my friend and he, he really was the one that said, you know, I really feel strongly that you need to take this name on and even that was kind of mystical because I was down at the beach. He lives right on the ocean and was contemplating the name not sure what to do with it. And I came up to the house and before I said anything about the name I hadn’t talked to anybody And he said, Well, what about this name? I just have this feeling that you got a name and. And so it was mysterious. It was really mysterious. So I, I just went for it

Rick Archer: go. Have you always had mystical experiences? Or did they just start at a certain point when you, you’d like to take a turn, they started,

Kosi: really, it was a profound mystical experience that actually started my spiritual seeking. But it was in San Francisco, a good friend of mine really encouraged me to go to this church. It was called radiant light church in San Francisco. And it was known as the disco church. It was kind of his, it was San Francisco, right? So it wasn’t, wasn’t your typical church. But he encouraged me to go, we went. And it was one of those moments where I walked in the church, you know, expecting a regular church. But because they incorporated a non dual belief system based on the teachings of both Muktananda and Sai Baba, you know, he was talking about things like you’re not your body, you’re not your past. And this was just a different way of thinking. And at that time, I wouldn’t say that I was a spiritual seeker. I was very successful in my career, I was selling software at that time in the Silicon Valley, I was making lots of money. In fact, that day that we ended up going to church, I was gonna go out and buy a house, you know, it was one of those things wasn’t it wasn’t planned at all. But as soon as I walked in, I said, you know, something, something major is about to happen. And there was a transmission, or something that happened that day. And it was multifaith. So it embraced many different traditions. It wasn’t just a non dual or Advaita perspective. It definitely embraced Christianity and Christ. But they had a workshop that I signed up for immediately. And it was based a lot on Werner Earhart’s work which is asked and landmark education, which really gets you in touch with it, you’re not your past. But he put together he took some of the elements of that he took some of the elements of Native American spirituality, and the chanting of Baba Muktananda, Guru Mei in particular. And he put this together and this weekend workshop. And it was during that workshop, that I had a profound experience of Christ, and experienced, I guess you could call it almost like the risen Christ, or the the truth of Christ, which was this love. I mean, Rick, it was, it was unbelievable. I never expected I went to the workshop to meet some new people. Because I was new to San Francisco at that time, I didn’t go to have a profound mystical experience, I didn’t go to have my life changed. I didn’t even go to become enlightened. I went because I thought, Wow, this might be an opportunity to meet some nice people. And then I had this experience of Christ, and it was like your, your greatest love times a trillion billion would only scratch the surface of this love that I experienced. And then that’s where my seeking really started to begin deeply. Because I wanted to get back to that experience, you know, I had the experience of Christ and His love. But then, you know, my, you know, my conditioned existence. I mean, I can say that now, but at the time, I didn’t really know why I lost it. It was there. And I had this profound experience. But then it went away over time. And so that’s, that’s what really was the catalyst for seeking.

Rick Archer: And we can’t entirely see all three, maybe you can duck, but on the wall behind you, you have Papaji and Gangaji, and Ramana Maharshi. And I also understand that karuna, Maya is big in your life. So we’ll talk about all those things. But so we’re kind of heading off on a chronological account of your path. But let’s keep going on that is it that can be interesting, and we can pick up a lot as we go. Okay.

Kosi: Sure. So yeah, so that’s when my seeking really began was I had this profound experience of Christ. But it was an experience. It was like a past life memory, we did a process it was a process called known as breathing and of course, are conscious breath, and I’m sure you’ve heard of this. And it was incorporated into the workshop. And it’s where you just breathe continuously, you lay down on the ground. And it actually produces scientifically like an LSD kind of experience when you do that. I mean, I know that now because I’ve read about but at the time, I didn’t know anything, right? I was just going, Oh, we’re gonna breathe continuously. But in that process, I had this memory of actually being crucified with Christ. And it was like a memory because I actually felt what it was like to be crucified. So I I was on the right hand side of Christ.

Rick Archer: You One of the critten, one of the other one of the criminal criminals, the

Kosi: criminals, and I was really,

Rick Archer: today you should be with me in paradise.

Kosi: But I was the guy that was just like looking him like, almost disgusted. Like, why would you let yourself do this? Like, I remembered him teaching. And I was very rough kind of guy in that life, or at least the way I remembered it. You know, I don’t know what that was. It was so profound and mysterious how this all happened. But I was looking at him and almost like angry, like, why would you allow yourself to be crucified, I feel like I deserve this, but you don’t, kind of thing. So I was kind of angry. But then there was this, this just fascination with him. Because he was so calm in the midst of all of this chaos, you know, people crying and everything that was happening in that scene. But I actually felt that like, my skin was burning. So like, the sunburn was outrageous, like no suntan lotion, so your skin is burning. My eyes were swelling shot, I experienced what it was like I couldn’t swallow, I couldn’t swallow to like, even swallow my, you know, like saliva couldn’t breathe it. I couldn’t start. I was starting to suffocate. Yeah, that’s,

Rick Archer: that’s the main way that crucifixion kills you actually. Because your arms are pulled so strongly that you, you can’t breathe unless you push up with your feet. Right, which is why they have that little pedestal on there.

Kosi: Right. And then the scientists now say that you know that the nails were driven in the wrist, but in that memory, it was not in the wrist, it was actually in the palm of the hand. But there was a rope tied around this right here and the the forearm, that’s what gave the additional support definitely was in the palms of the hands. But the rope was around here, which is gave you that extra support. So it wasn’t just hanging there from the nails. And then you had this little thing to stand on a little perch, but your feet are also peers, but my hands are actually completely numb, at least how I experienced it, my hands are now my feet were numb, I couldn’t breathe, my skin was burning, my eyes were swelling shot, it was excruciatingly painful. I mean, it’s

Rick Archer: like there’s, it sounds like it was really a very vivid memory very detailed,

Kosi: it was a very detailed kind of like past life memory kind of thing. But who knows, it’s like I said, it’s kind of a mystery with that kind of thing. It could be like the collective consciousness. And for whatever reason, in that process, you could plug into that, I don’t know. But I experienced it in the first person, like I was the person being crucified with Christ. And then there was this moment, you know, when he really was surrendering his life, and, you know, forgiving the soldiers. And I was just like, so disgusted with the soldiers, you know, like, I was yelling at them and spitting. And here’s Christ, you know, like, forgiving them and actually teaching from the crossing this light that was coming out of him, it was just incredible. And then the this like, energy came out of the crowd, like so there was all these people standing around watching us die. And this energy like, it looked like Black Soot came out of them and into Christ, into his heart, actually, and into my heart. And that was the moment where it was the most painful. It was excruciating ly painful when this energy, whatever it was, was coming into us. And shortly after that, we all left our body and it was in the leaving of the physical form, that I experienced this profound, indescribable love. And in that moment, Christ looked at me and he said, Do you remember? Do you remember that life basically. And he’s and he just looked at me with the most unbelievable love and compassion, he said, You are this love. You are this, this is available to you, anytime, anywhere. And but at the time that this was happening, first of all, I was shocked to have this kind of experience. And secondly, I, you know, I was raised Christian, but left the church when I was, you know, young adults. I was really the only person in my family that continued with the church. When my when I was 12, my parents stopped going to church. They became kind of disillusioned with the whole church thing. It was kind of like a social club. But they got busy in their lives and really didn’t participate. So I didn’t have a an in depth knowledge at all about the Bible or Christ or non dual teaching. I didn’t even know what a guru was at that point in my life. In fact, I really thought because this friend of mine took me to the churches saying well, they have gurus they have an altar with all these different teachers and I said gurus are real I thought they were like Aboriginal, you know, medicine. And the trunk heads you don’t really, I mean, I really didn’t know I hadn’t. I was really ignorant when it came to the whole guru thing because I was raised on the east coast of the United States. And when I was young in the 1960s, I was born in 1960. You know, that wasn’t part of the conversation. Everyone in my community went to church.

Rick Archer: Just for Kicks whereabouts on the East Coast.

Kosi: I grew up in McLean, Virginia,

Rick Archer: okay, yourself. I was up in Connecticut. Oh, yeah.

Kosi: That’s for you know, my dad was

Rick Archer: would have been fun if we got to the same high school and hadn’t known it or something. Yeah. My dad

Kosi: was born and raised in Hartford, Connecticut. Okay.

Rick Archer: So I ended up to do with a trivial Okay, so, so this was a kick in the pants having this profound experience when you really hadn’t expected it, or really hadn’t been looking for it or anything else. And but this guy just kind of lit a fire in you.

Kosi: It did. I mean, because the love was so profound. I mean, really, when I say like your greatest loves, imagine what you when you love someone, this feeling of love. If you multiply that by a trillion billion, then that only scratched the surface love. So it was it was unbelievable. This love. I’m laughing

Rick Archer: because you’re you remind me of karuna, my, you know, my babies, I love you a gazillion choice.

Kosi: Her whole thing is just the most profound divine, unconditional compassion, love will come back to her. But yeah, well, definitely, we have to come back to her because she mysteriously came into my life as well. So and it’s connected, it’s all connected. It’s all perfection is how I see it. It’s, it’s amazing. So actually, after that workshop, I really thought it was a one time kind of experience, you know, like, you go to the workshop, you do the process, you have an adult, their experience. And a lot of people had a lot of releasing a lot of emotions, releasing a lot of past life memories and things. So it wasn’t unusual to have that kind of thing happen. But what was unusual about it is that after that experience, I continue to hear this voice. That wasn’t my voice. It was the voice that I attributed to Christ, this, like really highly conscious voice and this voice of the most profound love. But it absolutely terrified me, Rick, because I thought, okay, you know, I went to this workshop to make some friends, I wasn’t expecting to have Christ are talking to me, or whatever this is, it’s happening to me. I didn’t really know. And, you know, I did talk to the minister of the church, about what was happening. And he assured me that it was fine, you know, but I still felt like, I must be going crazy. You know, there’s this voice that’s not my voice. And it was a voice of profound clarity and love. So every time it happened, I would just go back to that bliss, of this love. But at the same time, I was afraid because I didn’t understand at all. What was going on. I even went to a therapist, and I said, you know, maybe I’m going crazy. I have maybe I’m schizophrenic or something because I have this voice. And thank God, she was really a Buddhist. And she felt like because of the nature of this experience, that it was so profound, that I experienced the crucifixion the way I did, that I should just start writing it down. She said, What’s the problem with just writing down with whatever this voice wants to share with you as long as it’s not asking to hurt somebody or do something crazy, because some people get very delusional with this kind of experience, right? Sure. So luckily, I was fortunate to have that kind of support. And so the very first book I wrote was actually called One Love. And it was about this experience this mystical experience of Christ and I just basically follow the voice wherever he wanted me to go. I spent a lot of time at Spirit Rock meditation center in Marin, you know, up in the up in the hills, they have these little platforms for meditation. And I would just go up there and be in total bliss writing down these most profound truths like go into you your heart you are the law stuff like that. I can remember him even saying at one point you’re like a moth flying into the flame that is God and I remember erasing it going that can’t be right if I’m a moth flying to the flame there would be no moss you know, I would disappear. So I can’t be it right.

Rick Archer: So these locks were just coming to you you weren’t like reading you know, esoteric books all day long video. This voice just started going and all these thoughts

Kosi: going and I just every you know, Every weekend, it was mostly on the weekends, because I was working full time, I would just go to Grace Cathedral in Washington, not in Washington, but in San Francisco, and do the labyrinth, or sit in the pews, or go out to Montana and look out at the ocean, and just write down what this voice was telling me. So it was it was profound in that sense, but then, of course, the questions started to arise. You know, I started to wonder about the paradox, you know, we have choice, but we have choice listeners, I had the experience of love, but it seemed to go away. You know, why, why is that I believed at that point that it was possible for an ordinary person to become enlightened. But I didn’t understand how to do that. And so I became very attracted to the Dalai Lama, and Tibetan Buddhists. And so I spent time with him and had profound mystical experiences, also with the Dalai Lama, and then so your Rinpoche, you went to India for that? No, I didn’t go to India, he came to the United States. And at that time in San Francisco, that’s when Conversations with God first came out. So actually, it was Conversations with God, that began this whole thing, because before just before I went to the church, that book had come out and a group of us had got together in a friend of ours House to talk about that book to talk about, this isn’t even possible to talk to God, you know, it’s like, this was just, I can’t tell you how strange it was, for me growing up on the East Coast, to find myself in San Francisco with this group of people talking about things that were just, you know, that were relegated to the Bible, you know, something that happened in ancient times, but it wasn’t something that could happen to you now. So I was exposed to Conversations with God around that time. And I was fascinated with that book, especially the first book, I didn’t continue with that trip, you know, that the series of books because then my own mystical experience started to happen. But then I was introduced to Guru mind through the same church. Because, you know, when I found out the gurus were actually real, that you could actually go and talk to them, which was just such a shock to me that there was actually enlightened people was mind blowing. So I, I’ve found out that I could actually go to the ashram in Oakland. And that’s, you know, where I was introduced to the whole, the real lineage of Mitzvah Nanda, which is Muktananda, who brought that teaching from India to the United States in the early 1970s. And then I had Shakti pot initiation from Guru Mei, and it was just, it was profound, right? Because I made fun of it. You know, people said, Oh, well, you know, Shakti pod as you get your Kundalini awakened, but I was so ignorant at that time, I was like Kundalini, you know, that is so strange. And I said, and I always tell friends, they’re like, Well, what do you do? And I said, Well, I’m going down to Palm Springs to have my Kundalini awakened. But you know, it’s funny to me now, but I really did make fun of it. And, and then I literally had a profound Kundalini awakening, I was in bed, sound asleep and had this dream, where I was in this dark meditation cave that was filled with candles, and it was knitting and Muktananda, and Guru Mei, and they were all in complete and total silence with their eyes closed. And then I was sitting right across from Guru Mei, and she opened her eyes and stared at me. And then she reached behind her head, and there was like this ball of light, and she took it and she threw it. Like, like, you know, throwing a baseball pitch, she really threw this ball of light. And it hit me in the third eye. And this energy just shot through my body. And literally, I flew out of bed, I fell on the floor. That’s how intense this experience was, there was like this wave of energy that went through my entire body. It was like a classic Kundalini awakening. And certainly my life before that, and after was very different. So all of this was in the 1996 1997 timeframe. And all this was going on this introduction to this profound lineage and the chant and the Mantra, which is a big part of Guru mais teaching, or at least it was in that time period. And then having these mystical experiences of Christ it was all happening at the same time. But this is like really my introduction to We would call the cell for pure consciousness that we are the radiance that we’re seeking, or the happiness and freedom that we’re looking for. But at that time, I didn’t know it, you know, it’s still looking,

Rick Archer: it’s interesting to note that, you know, the, the kind of liveliness of your experiences and the details and the kind of the colorfulness of your experiences, because sometimes spiritual experience or spiritual awakening or something is portrayed as being fairly plain vanilla, you know, just being be here. Now, that kind of thing. And any mention of, you know, visions are, you know, cognitions, or anything with any kind of relative details to it is rather, is somewhat dismissed by some people as being, you know, just imaginary or just or a kind of a distraction or something. But I think there’s definitely, if that’s the way it happens is definitely significant in

Kosi: my experience, and not everyone experiences that. And I’ve often told people, I think that I was just really dense, you know, like, it’s almost like I needed that.

Rick Archer: Well, that’s interesting. You know, maybe God gives you what you need.

Kosi: You know, I mean, I don’t know, I just know at the time, I followed it. Yeah, no, because it was I was not happy, Rick, right. I was really unhappy at that point in my life. You know, I had all this money. I had everything that my parents said, would make me happy. And I was still unhappy. And you know, so I’ve poured all my lifeforce into being successful in work, and it hadn’t provided anything. And I’ve certainly had fun with friends drank a lot at that time, you know, I experimented with drugs, but I was never really into drugs. You know, there was definitely drugs were very prevalent in college. And certainly in San Francisco drugs are very, very prevalent, especially in the dance scene, and the party scene is big in San Francisco. But that didn’t appeal to me. So none of it was providing any kind of fulfillment or lasting happiness. So that was the essential disillusionment, but how it actually unfolded was completely by accident scene, or, or there was something else going on. Because who knows who we really are, you know, like, if you believe in reincarnation, you know, this, this is like our, you know, Papaji would say it’s 25 million years, you know, 25 million years of different incarnations that brought us to this point. Yeah. So who knows, I hold it as a, as a great mystery. But this is how this was my introduction to Advaita was through this little eclectic church and and this profound experience of Christ.

Rick Archer: Yeah, so then you had this guru, my experience in the dream and Kundalini in getting knocked out of bed then. But that certainly wasn’t the end of it.

Kosi: No, there was actually just the beginning. My and I, after that happened, it was it was really a slap in the face. And I think some of it was because I was making fun of it. Yeah, I really was kind of, like, kind of goofy, you know. And so I think that was part of it, because it really got my attention that this wasn’t some fake thing. This wasn’t something to be taken lightly. It was certainly an annihilation of my arrogance and my ignorance at the same time, you know, it was both. And so it really shocked me into realizing that Guru meI was this person that I had never, ever experienced anything like this before. And so I started going at that time, I had plenty of money. So I went to many of her retreats all over the United States, wherever guru meI was teaching, I would find a way to get there. If the Dalai Lama was cheap teaching, I would find a way to get there. I can remember in a sales meeting, you know, here I am in the valley. Now, it’s more popular to be spiritual. But at that time, you know, I was one of the few women in the sales meeting. And they were making fun of me because I took a week off, you know, vacation to be with the Dalai Lama. And I said, Well, what did you learn? And I said, I said, Well, we were studying the Heart Sutra. And Form is emptiness and emptiness is form and leave just like what it was just did not compute. Because you can imagine the pressure in the valley, if you’re in sales is a business. It’s about getting ahead. It’s about making money. It’s about closing the deal, right? Oh, geez.

Rick Archer: I mean, Steve Jobs, went to India and studied Buddhism and meditated and all that stuff. And maybe maybe the group I was, he did, okay.

Kosi: Yeah, so it was it was unusual, I guess for these people.

Rick Archer: Yeah. It’s interesting to note that it’s not so unusual. Now. I mean, that’s a good sign that this stuff is really coming into the mainstream. It’s hopeful son

Kosi: You know, it’s really good that it’s coming into the mainstream. So it’s not so unusual because the ordinary person can awaken that ordinary person can become liberated. And I do see them as two different things because awakening happens in a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a second, you can see yourself as pure presence, you can see the seer as Papaji said, but then to actually liberate yourself from the very powerful movements of your egoic mind, and your genetics and your social conditioning, your cultural conditioning, your personal conditioning, that takes determination, it takes a certain resolve, you know, Papaji talks about it as being walking on the razor’s edge. And one thought a single thought is too much to carry on this edge. And then you come to the realization that there is no edge and there isn’t a person walking on the edge, right? He would also describe it as finding the diamond. And so at first, it’s like you perceive it’s you feel like I’m this person perceiving the infinite tube that I am, right. And then there’s this shift, this essential shift where you, you see that you are the diamond, you are the radiance, silent, you are the infinitude you’re not this person perceiving it, and that that happens over time, there’s this deepening into this truth.

Rick Archer: Let’s get back into that in a few minutes in much greater detail, but um, muscle finish the story, but while we’re at it, so you’re still with your ma, you are going off to see the Dalai Lama when possible, right. And when

Kosi: Guru Maya would have profound experiences, like the very first retreat, it was the Shakti pot retreat, I would see this golden elephant dancing, you know, and I was like, what is that golden elephant? So I asked my

Rick Archer: yes open?

Kosi: No, he was just dancing. You know, he was just happy, golden health, it was ganache. But at the time, I didn’t know, like ganache was I had no idea. I didn’t know anything about Hinduism. I didn’t know anything about the deities, or how they worshipped deities, or what the deeper meaning of the deities were and what they’re pointing to because they’re like icons that point to this living truth, right?

Rick Archer: ashram was getting esprit wasn’t.

Kosi: Yeah, that’s right. I never made that connection, that that first retreat with her, I kept seeing this golden elephant. So I finally asked one of the sod who is that supported her at the time, and he told me it was ganache. And that he would break down the barriers to your own self realization. And I was just like,

Rick Archer: was the remover of obstacles

Kosi: remover of obstacles he takes you takes it away, and you can actually give over anything that’s troubling you to come match. Like, if you’re, if you can’t break free of your monkey mind, you can hand that off to Dinesh so it’s like a, some form of surrender to. But at the time, it was just, I didn’t have a clue. Clearly, I was just like, fascinated that

Rick Archer: the psychiatrist.

Kosi: Okay, Jesus now, now there’s this golden but at the time, it was just, it was exciting. It was like, wow, I mean, this whole realm of possibility opened up, right. That didn’t exist before. But it was also very confusing. It was very, very confusing to me, because I wasn’t raised in India. I didn’t know anything about the religion. So when I would have these experiences, which are common in India? Oh, yes, yeah. Oh, you had a vision of Ganesh, you know, like, it’s like, great, you know, you had this vision. But it’s not considered unusual. You know what I mean? It’s not like they go, Oh, well, you must be crazy. If you had something like that happened to you. So anyway, I was having these mystical experiences. But I started to become disillusioned with the whole thing, even with the Dalai Lama, because as profound as his presence is, and his teaching is, I love Tibetan Buddhism, for its profound message. I had all these questions, and I couldn’t get close to Guru Mei Mei. She even had bodyguards around her at that time, because there was so many people coming to see her there was 1000s of people at her retreats. And so I couldn’t get close to her. I couldn’t get close to any of them really to ask these questions. And so I was actually with whom I it was her birthday celebration in 2001. I was, we were chanting this ecstatic chant. And when you have 500 to 1000 people chanting these ancient Vedic hymns, it’s just euphoric. It’s the most incredible sound and the most incredible feeling because it brings you into your heart. So everyone’s close their eyes and they’re in this is static Chan. it and my eyes felt fly open. I’m 50 feet from Guru mind just sitting right in front of her. She’s staring at me. I’m staring back. We’re looking at each other like in this locked grip. And my body literally, we started. We sat there for about five minutes just staring at each other. And then my body just stood up. And I walked out. Wow. And I walked and I walked and I walked and I walked. And my mind was just swirling with thoughts. It’s like, how am I ever going to be enlightened? This is crazy. We’re never This isn’t getting anywhere. This is too slow. What is this all about? And she has these statues on it’s a big campus up in South Fallsburg, New York, which is now close to you have to actually give six months of Seva to or selfless service to actually be on that campus now, but at the time, it was open to everyone. And I walked and there’s a statue of Christ and Hahnemann, you know, the monkey god of devotion, right, and I knelt down in front of that statue. And I prayed, Rick, like I had never prayed in my life, for and I was very specific, because I had so many spiritual mystical experiences. I prayed that I would meet an enlightened Master and awake being that could awaken me that could show me the steps of Enlightenment. But I was very specific, and that it had to be someone that I could talk to. And then I heard Christ in that moment, I heard that same voice that I had been following around. And he said, you will receive the answer the answer one answer to all your questions at the water’s edge. That’s what I heard. And so I said, Well, that’s interesting, but I hope it’s a person. I mean, I was really wanting to talk to somebody, it was that kind of an almost like a desperate prayer for help. And 14 days later, I was introduced to comity and found myself literally ecologies, feet. And the next weekend, I was marrying two people in San Francisco, a sundog. I mean, this is actually what happened. I’m not just making this stuff up. But a sundog appeared in the sky. And a sundog is an unusual phenomenon, where there’s a circular rainbow, and on a sunny, bright, sunny day. So in the middle of this wedding ceremony, this sundog appears. And this man comes out of the audience. And he said, I’d never heard a service like that. There’s someone you must meet, and her name is gotten itchy. And he ran into the house. And he got a picture of Ganga G and he got me some videotapes. It was a it was a videotape called the longing. And he said, you just have to meet her, you’d have to meet her. And then that very next weekend, she had a Satsang. But he, he had a personal relationship with God. And he they’ve known each other in Lucknow, he had been in Lucknow when when Gandhiji was there. And so he was part of that Lucknow experience. And he knew Ganga chi, and he called her every day. It was just it was so shocking wreck. And I kept telling him, I say, he would call me and say, Mike, I called her again. And I said, he really don’t need to do this. I’m definitely coming. I knew that this is probably the answer to that he was calling her to somehow read me that, you know, like this minister, because, you know, I was a minister at the time I was presiding over a wedding. Yeah. And so I was, you know, I was a reverend, you know that. But I was, I was a minister and I was presiding over this reading. And he was amazed by what I was saying. And he wanted to make sure that Gangaji knew I was coming. So why he did that. I have no idea. You know, part of it is just his personality. I kept telling him it wasn’t necessary. But then when I get there, at the Satsang, it was so sweet that he did this now because it became it’s such a important relationship that I have we gone to chi, and he got me this gardenia Kearsarge, which for me was just profound because it smelled like the temple that how they worship, the niching on the temple. It’s always filled with gardenias. And it’s that Divine Sense, right? So he, he gave it he put this corsage on me, he had put a blanket down in the front rows, how have you rated Congress his feet, and he arranged for me to be in the small group meeting. So she had the big public meetings, but she also had the small group meetings for people that would be too shy to get in front of a group. And so I was I literally at her feet within 14 days. And I was shocked. I mean, I can’t even tell you how shocked I was by all of this that was happening. But I was so wonder struck when before going and she even said any thing you know, she walked into the room. And I knew immediately she was the answer to the prayer. And then just a few minutes later, I was literally at her feet and could ask that first question, which was how you got there? What are the steps? What are the levels of Enlightenment? You know,

Rick Archer: what was it? Where does the water’s edge thing come in? Ganga? Oh, god. Okay. Oh, Rick, it

Kosi: took me a long time to get that. Yeah, I still I still in the back of my mind was thinking, Oh, maybe someday at the ocean.

Rick Archer: I was thinking there was gonna be something literal, you know, like, me, Gaga J on the beach or something. Right? He’s

Kosi: the water’s edge. And there is only one answer to the all the questions. And that is you are what you’re looking for. Call off the search stop. You know, there’s all the things that Gangaji was saying. But Gangaji was the first person that said, Stop, you know, stop looking. And that that alone stopped my mind. You know, when she said that? It was like my mind just froze. And I was just like, what, you know, stop a search, how am I ever going to be lightened if I don’t look for it? You know, that was how my mind heard that. But there was a transmission in being with God at that first day. So I experienced the next there was several songs in a row. So it was like a, I think it was a Sunday and then the next night, there was another one Tuesday night or something like that. But the next song I felt completely nauseated. Like I literally Rick, I thought I was just gonna vomit on her feet. That is how Joseph’s inner turmoil or something just like there was this. I couldn’t explain it. I still can’t explain it. But there was this feeling of nausea. And this is a very common experience of someone that’s had a profound transmission. So I’m sitting there, and I’m feeling sick to my stomach. And it was like overwhelming like, here I am with another teacher kind of feeling, you know, like a almost a feeling of dread. Yeah, like this is just another thing where I’m gonna be stuck buying a bunch of books and buying them malas unless, you know, shawls in the pictures, you know. So I had this inexplicable nauseating feeling. And I felt this huge emotion coming up, just huge. I mean, I literally as soon as the Satsang was over, I ran to my car, slammed the door and just sobbed. I just could not stop crying. It was sobbing, sobbing, sobbing, sobbing like this. Unbelievable. Release to Tharsis. Yeah, it was just unbelievable. And so I drove home sobbing the whole I don’t even know how I drove across the Bay Bridge. But I was just crying the whole way. And I got home and there a friend of mine was with me. And I was sobbing, sobbing, sobbing, sobbing. And, and yeah, she was trying to comfort me. She didn’t know what was going on. And I said, it was just like falling into this pit of despair. And then suddenly, without any explanation or anything, I could not stop laughing. It was hilariously funny. I got I got to see how ridiculous the whole, the whole search was. I mean, you are what you’re looking for. And it just struck me is hilariously funny. And so I was laughing. So hard, my stomach hurt. So I was sobbing, crying one and then laughing. The next. And I shared that with Ganga city. The next time I saw her, which was about a week later. And she looked at the audience and said, a testimonial. And if I was a cartoon figure, you would just put a big question mark in the bubble. You know, I was like, testimonial. What exactly was that you know what happened to me. I mean, I just didn’t, I didn’t really understand at that time. But now I do understand that what was going on is that there was this transmission of this particular lineage, which stops you in your tracks, and any suppressed feelings or emotions, you know, trauma that you’ve had in your life, whatever, maybe maybe many lives, just suddenly, inexplicably comes to the surface to be released. And so it was really a a holy moment of release in meeting Ganga Ji so there was this profound introduction to her. But then there was this transmission and the holy moment of release from the seeking and from the you know, the person that is suffering, it was like an instantaneous release.

Rick Archer: I see that a lot around Arma the hugging saint, you know, people come and all of a sudden big football players and people are just bawling. You know, because there’s and it’s not just because of the sweetness of the experience there’s this you know, definitely inner kind of transformation that takes place and and that kind of automatically triggers a purging Yeah. Yeah,

Kosi: it’s it’s, it’s like I said it’s beyond the minds comprehension. A transmission trance is transcendent of mind. And so a lot of Hindu lineages that go back to India, and you know, not that I’m a cheese necessarily Hindu, but certainly her culture is steeped in Hinduism. She’s pretty. Yeah, there’s a transmission. You know, I’ve been, you know, during that period of I certainly went to on the Chi to get a hug. I mean, how could you not get I even saw her transform into Krishna there’s a puja that they do. It’s a special puja. I don’t even know the name of it. Well,

Rick Archer: she used to do this Krishna Baba thing these days is Devi Baba, but she used to do Krishna Baba,

Kosi: hi, yah. And even that was mysterious to me and common in the Indian culture, but uncommon to the Western culture, at least at that time. For me, all of this was just like a shock to my system, but it was really gone. Michi that ended the search, which was essential. I mean, I was kind of saturated. At that point. I’ve been with so many different teachers. i The the mystical experience with Christ actually took me all the way to Jerusalem. And what would happen in the Holy Lands was you actually went to Jerusalem. Oh, yeah. Okay, here to me. I was in I was in Muktananda zone from South falls, we’re in South now this was in this is after? Let’s see this timeframe, let me get the timeframe straight. It was before I make on it. So it’s definitely before and like it was in 1998. I had already been with already had the Shakti pot with guru Mei, and was meditating, you know, we used to go and do the Guru Purnima chants where you stay up all night, and you is saying, oh, Namah Shivaya. And you would be so blissed out, we would just be laughing our heads off by morning. But so we were enjoying the chance, right? But I was in a deep meditation, one day in that particular ashram, and Christ appeared as a ball of light. I mean, it’s brilliant light. And the same love that I experienced initially in that workshop. And he said, I want you to go to Jerusalem, there’s something I want to teach you there. And then you disappear. And my first reaction was no way. Because even then, it was dangerous. I mean, there was a there was a lot of bombs going off, seemed like a lot in the 1990s, the late 1990s, there was a lot of terrorist activities going on in Jerusalem. So that was like the last place on the planet that I wanted to go. But it was such a profound vision, that it haunted me, it was kind of like this haunting quality to it, I just couldn’t stop thinking about, maybe there was some real reason for following this. And, but it would require that I leave my job. And it would require making a pretty serious commitment to follow this.

Rick Archer: You had to quit, you couldn’t just take a vacation. The way

Kosi: I held it, because the the kind of work that I was doing at the time I was I was still in sales, and it was just so busy all the time, there was just no way you could take, you know, to go all the way to Jerusalem for a week or two weeks didn’t seem like it was going to be enough time. So I did quit, I quit my job. And so I would have plenty of time. But it took me about six months to make that decision that I was actually going to really go for it and follow that mystical vision of him. And then once I made that decision, once I quit my job, of course then I had all these ideas emerge in my mind of where I was gonna go, you know, I was gonna go to the Mount of Olives where he taught the disciples, you know, had this kind of fantasy right about Christ teaching the disciples and how incredible that must have been because I’m sure he was just, it wasn’t just his words, right? It was this radiance, you know, this, this love that emanates from Christ or the love that emanates from Ahmed chi or Karina Maya is this profound love, right? So I had all these fantasies and then he appeared again in the same ashram, same exact kind of vision, brilliant light. And he said, You know, I want you to meet me, in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, at the burning cross. And then he disappeared, which is Jerusalem. It’s in Jerusalem, but I didn’t know at the time I didn’t know what the Church of the Holy stuff like her was. And it turned out that there was such a place there is a church and it’s the church that’s built around the side of the crucifixion, you know, so that’s, that led us, me and a good friend of mine that I met, you know, in the conversations with God group. We went together on this amazing adventure of it was truly of biblical proportions because it happens. I mean, it was just I mean, like stuff like that comes out of the Bible. You know, it’s just

Rick Archer: a far out things happening to me. Well, you know, he says to meet

Kosi: him at the burning cross, right? So I figured it must be a painting or a statue or, you know, something inside this church, you know, what could it be? I mean, he didn’t explain anything. He just basically said, need him. It wasn’t the Mount of Olives. That’s all I knew. And I was kind of actually disappointed because I was initially going to go to the Mount of Olives where I knew he taught the disciples. Is that where he was crucified the Mount of Olives, or is that different? He was crucified in, you know, where the church is this actually the location.

Rick Archer: Oh, you’re right. He was born in Bethlehem. That’s right. But where he? Is that where he gave Sermon on the Mount? Is that the amount of hours?

Kosi: No, I don’t, I’m not actually sure. Maybe

Rick Archer: I’m throwing you off the track here. So

Kosi: I don’t know. I mean, I don’t know where the Sermon on the Mount was, it could have been in the Mount of Olives, because it is a pyre and or olive trees that are ancient olive trees there. But anyway, I mean, that was just something I had read in the Bible when I was young. And I was drawn to that, because I know that he had spent time teaching the disciples under the olive trees, right. And then it was arrested. That’s where they were in the mat. They were in the Mount of Olives. And, you know, Christ was so terrified, he actually sweat blood, right? He was he was absolutely terrified, because he knew what awaited him. And it was a profound moment of surrender. That happened in the Mount of Olives. But anyway, I was just, it was just kind of a fantasy, really. And then he appeared and said, he wanted me to go to this church instead. And so we did go to the church. I mean, we found our way there. And there was a series of circumstances that led us there. But we finally get there. And we’ve gone to is a huge place. It’s a very old church, of course, it’s been there for centuries. And we didn’t see anything that looks like a burning cross, No Picture, No statue, no nothing. And we were getting ready to leave. And I saw this really brilliant light coming from a balcony place that we hadn’t been. And I said, Well, let’s go up there. And we go up, and there’s a Eucharist mass in process. And so they asked us to join hands. And we joined hands and became part of this group of people that were there, obviously, on a Christian pilgrimage. But almost simultaneously, my friend and I saw the this cross, which was over the top of this altar, there was this effigy of Christ on it, but there was these Byzantine art that looked like flames. And we both said it immediately. Simultaneous, we said, here it is, there’s the it was just one of those miraculous kind of moments, you know, when we finally found it. And then it turns out after this, we waited for the service to be finished, and a tour guide appeared and you know, I was making my way towards the cross. And He said, This cross marks the exact spots of the crucifixion. And I was really overwhelmed at this point, with it was almost like time collapsed. It was like, the memory came flooding back of the actual horror of the crucifixion. And I really, really was starting to cry. But you can actually crawl underneath the altar and reach down and touch the rock of Golgotha where he was executed where he was crucified. And when I reached down, I touched the rock and it was cold, like you would expect your rock to be. But it suddenly transformed and you know, it was transforming into this like warm, almost like liquid light. It was just the strangest sensation. And I was feeling this. And it just, I just lost it. I was sobbing, sobbing crying at the the pain of the crucifixion and losing a beloved teacher, you know, just losing Christ in that fashion. You know, losing this beautiful teacher that could heal and open your heart to the truth of who you were. So I’m feeling all this sadness. And then this voice said, release your sadness for I did not die. I’m alive as the rock. I’m as alive as the rock that you touch. And this energy Rick shot at me it was like a Kundalini experience. It just shot up out of the rock. And literally like being electrocuted, it was like an energetic pulse that went up and hit me in the heart almost knocked you down. And then I just grabbed a hold of my friend Randall and sobbed afterwards because I mean, what else could I do? It was just, it was shocking. It was shocking that I had the vision before I left and then to have that kind of a profound introduction to not only the crucifixion of Christ, but the Wesen Christ are this, this energy, this presence that defies the physical form or lives beyond the physical form before you’re born. And after you’re, you’re gone. You know, I just, it’s incredible. It was an incredible experience. And then we were there for a long period of time, and had a profound experience of Moses. That’s where we were guided to go. Just incredible. What happened there.

Rick Archer: Interesting. So, the thing I find most interesting about this is that, you know, you get these suggestions from from a voice, and then you actually follow them up. And then something happens. And it’s sort of like, you’re, you’re willing, I wish I had $1. For every time I heard you use the word willing or willingness in your podcasts, but But you don’t you showed yourself to be willing to go ahead and follow these impulses, not not really knowing where they were leading. Right, or even,

Kosi: even if I was going to be killed, because certainly it was dangerous, and it’s still dangerous in Jerusalem. Yeah, maybe not as janeyah dangerous as it was back then. Or more dangerous. Now, who knows? But it was risky today. I mean, I quit my job. I’d never done anything.

Rick Archer: That’s a big leap. But you had you know, you had the faith to kind of take these leaps. Yeah, I did.

Kosi: I just it was definitely, maybe it was curiosity. But there was this, there was this willingness. Because there was this love, the love it was the voice was infused with love. So it was that that big love, it was the love me, I now know, it was the love of my own heart, right. But at the time, I experienced it as this Christ presence as Jesus. And it was just, it was blissful. It was adventurous, and it was totally terrifying. It was I was scared. Yeah. And I wouldn’t have even gone by myself, it was lucky that my friend Randall at that particular time, you know, he was a full time artist. And in fact, he was the only person that could go, and I paid for his trip, because at that time, I had the funds to do that kind of thing. You know, so it was all it was like divine providence. Yeah, it’s the only way I can explain it. Because I knew for whatever reason, even in my ignorance, because I was certainly ignorant. And I was also arrogant at that time. I just knew to trust it. I don’t know, I don’t think at the time, I would even have used the word faith. You know, because my mother would, you know, was more Buddhists. He likes the Buddha more than she liked Christianity. She didn’t understand Christianity, and she kind of put down faith because she didn’t really believe it was real.

Rick Archer: These are nice examples of the fact that there is a divine providence, you know, that, that we are guided. And again, it appeals to me because I recoil a little bit against the plain vanilla approach to non duality in which there’s, there’s no sort of appreciation of, of the nuances and the subtleties and the dimensionality of life. But, you know, in my orientation, that all that is significant and real, and you can get caught up in it and turn it into a fantasy imaginary thing. But, you know, with a proper perspective and balance, it has its value, and it obviously has for you.

Kosi: Yeah, no, it was it definitely, to me, it’s the great mystery. You know, the the Native American was also part in my path. I’m a pipe carrier for the Lakota. Right. And so, I was really into it. I mean, I was a seeker, you know, I was really after I had that taste. I was really into everything. The ancient stuff especially really appealed to me. But I wouldn’t have known at the time that it was, you know, the self consciousness. I mean, I heard some of those terms, I heard that you weren’t your body. I knew about gurus, especially when I was in the Jerusalem experience was really in the very early stages, you know, but I would call it the great mystery, because how do you explain something you can’t explain that experience of Christ telling me to go first of all, to a church that I didn’t even know existed? And then tell me to meet and at this place that actually happens to met, you know, mark the exact spot of the crucifixion. I mean, that’s, you know, that’s not something you can manifest just like, you know, even fantasizing about something,

Rick Archer: you can’t, that was all pre Ganga, G that this is all pre kanji.

Kosi: But this was actually the essential. This was leading to spiritual disillusion. And it’s where I knelt down on the ground and said that prayer because this was over a period of about three years or three or four years that I guess was like four years that I was really doing, heavy seeking and following this mystical experience of Christ which was biblical in nature and, and later I read About the saints and many of the saints have reported similar experiences. So I can actually relate to saints like St. Francis, you know, when Gangaji and Eli went to Assisi in the 2004 timeframe, I was part of that group. And I was just in bliss, with St. Francis. He was like, to me the epitome of my experience. So I could relate to St. Francis, because he had similar experiences, Christ spoke to him in the cross from the cross of this rundown church. So I could relate to that. And I could feel the love that is there. That’s Christ, the Christ love is so present in Assisi. So there’s this mystical aspect. And even Gangaji have the experience of saying a prayer for a true teacher, and then find found herself with poverty. So it’s not an unusual experience. It’s almost like essential in a way to find this point of disillusionment with the surge or this disillusionment with the mundane. So that you’re willing, like you were saying, to stop the search. From in my case, it was good that I was willing to follow the search, but it was also time to stop the search so that I could really go deeper.

Rick Archer: That’s a good point. I mean, there’s a time for seeking and there’s a time to stop seeking, you know, the seek, and you shall find knock and the door shall be open. But at the same time, there’s also a time when, you know, okay, now you can relax.

Kosi: Yeah, right. It’s, and that was really the gift of of Ganga tea, and not just going to see, but the whole landing, it’s really poppity. It’s definitely about stopping to see what’s deeper to see what’s deeper than your name, because that’s the source of the seeking is this egoic mind besides this identity, and in my case, at that time, there was definitely a lot of self hatred, and feeling of unworthiness and confusion. And so the mystical was like, the light, it was like, I was following the light to get away from the suffering. But what happened over time was the following the light also became a form of suffering, you see, yeah. And that was the essential disillusion. And that made me stop and say, Okay, I need, I need some help. Because they can do

Rick Archer: they can make it you can kind of get into a habit of seeking for something where it’s not going to be found, you know, and that becoming habitual. And then there’s this sort of like, you’re chasing a carrot on a stick?

Kosi: That’s right. It’s a golden carrot. And I kept thinking, and in a way, it was true. I felt like that following the Christ voice, or whatever that experience was, that by following that, that I would receive the answer. I was looking for the answer. I was looking for the the way to Enlightenment. And what’s interesting is that this, this voice told me the way he said over and over again, the truth that you’re seeking is in your heart, it is the universal light of all that is, it is the freedom that you seek. And he would say, and I hear that and right that, like I told you earlier about the moth flying into the flame, but still be confused by it and even have a lot of doubt came up when I started having even in Jerusalem. I mean, here I am in Jerusalem, like having this profound experience of yeah, this energy shooting out of the rock of Gaga, right, and I still having doubts. And that was, it’s just amazing that I still would have doubted that time.

Rick Archer: I think it’s natural, and it’s common. And you know, and whether you’re with a girl or going through various experiences, you know, you just go through what you go through in order for these doubts to be dispelled, but it’s not obviously, you’re not beating yourself up over having had them. But no, no, but everybody goes through such a phase

Kosi: when Ramona said doubt the doubt or that was huge. I mean, that was huge for me when I heard some of those amazing quotes from Ramana doubt, the doubt are one of them. And the other was, the heart is the only reality. And I just there was just so it was so infused with truth, but it was really Gong as you that could answer my questions, but stop this sun search. And it was a profound search. Yeah. For for truth and freedom. And it was like, you know, because I had so much money reckoning. This is one of the gifts of having all the money is I knew that the money wasn’t the answer, that having the nice house wasn’t the answer, that having the BMW wasn’t the answer. That you know, the things that my parents had done to survive was not going to make me happy. So that was the crash If you will really open this up,

Rick Archer: would you agree with the notion that stopping the search does not mean an end to discovery and deepening and, you know, exploration, it’s more like stopping of the sort of the desperate energy in which you know, you’re looking for something which you’re already, which is already your essence?

Kosi: Well, I think it’s in an end to the addiction to the bliss states, because certainly that’s an aspect of seeking, right? But once you’re willing to stop once you hear that when you really hear that, stop, not as necessarily physically stopping, but discovering what still inside of you, then there’s no end to the discovery. There’s no end to the inquiry, but you’re not moving outward to get. Yeah, it’s not an objectification because there’s a subtle and gross keyframes being not moving outward. That’s right. But it’s, but there’s a subtle and gross objectification of freedom and truth, when you’re seeking to get it, it says it’s not here, the mind is going to tell you it’s not here. And the reason is usually because of some sense of self hatred. Because if you feel deep down that you’re worthless, then freedom can’t possibly be here, right? This is how the mind would interpret that. And so naturally, the tendency is to go well, it has to be somewhere else. And then there’s this longing for happiness and freedom that we all experience. But we’re we the tendency is in the ignorant mind, or the mind is not aware, is just to follow this longing to you know, to follow it. Like I was following it. I was following the longing for Christ, the longing for God. You know, where is truth? Where is freedom? How do you become enlightened? I was following this longing, but I didn’t know to stop and turn to the longing itself. Until I met Gaia chi. Actually, that was the very first take that this man that came and told me about gaiety gave me this tape was about the longing. And I was like, That’s it.

Rick Archer: Yeah, you had had in her experiences. Now that period of experience? Seems like there should have been a clue that it’s to be found within not in some kind of external search.

Kosi: I told you I was kind of dance. I mean, I certainly did. I mean, I had a lot of meditation, a lot of silence, even when I was writing, you know, the words I was hearing, in this mystical experience, I was alone, quite a bit of a time, most of the time I spent alone in silence, receiving whatever that was this download of information of truth. I just couldn’t understand the truth. It was like I needed someone to help me interpret that. And for me, it was gone with you that did that.

Rick Archer: Would you say that? Even though, you know, you’ve given up, follow me chasing bliss states or specific experiences and so on. That is not to say that Bliss has not become or cannot become a kind of a 24/7 experience. But in a subtler way. It’s it becomes kind of a foundational thing. That’s right, yeah,

Kosi: it’s not a it’s not a state that comes and goes, experience happiness, that we get something we want, or a beautiful gift, or whatever, and we experience happiness, or we get a relationship that we’ve longed for, and we feel happy. But as Papaji says, you know, that’s because the desire was fulfilled. So when the desire is fulfilled, then you experience your natural state, which is happiness, but the state that comes and goes is not it because anything that comes and goes is not ultimately real. So there’s this deepening into the heart into the truth of who you are as aware presence. And the more you deepen into that, the more happiness you experience, no matter what is going on. Even if you’re having emotions that are considered non spiritual, like if you’re angry, or sad, or whatever, you’re still in the direct experience of happiness. And for me, it happened as a profound moment of what I call the supreme clarity. Just suddenly, it just it was like it got stuck on. And this was very recent, it was about three years ago, there was this feeling of being on all the time, just this presence of happiness. And it just didn’t matter what I was doing. I wasn’t even inquiring or doing anything in particular at the time, I was just walking through a park. And then suddenly, it was just there was this shift, and then everything was it’s indescribable. I just kind of stayed on after that. It just stayed on. Yeah, the clear awareness is the only way I can describe it. It’s the clear awareness. And you really not on a conceptual level, because certainly I understood all this stuff on a conceptual level for years and years. But this is a deepening into the truth of being to such a degree But there’s no thought process. You just know. It’s not even a knowing it’s just that you are that clear awareness. And so you really get that you’re not your past, you’re not your future. You’re not your emotions. You’re none of that. So it’s almost like a, like a fire that burns through burns through burns, and then suddenly it burns all the way through. And then there’s just this clear clearness this clarity.

Rick Archer: Yeah, well, if you think about it, I mean, everyone, even a dog is not aware by virtue of the fact that they’re thinking some particular thing. Awareness is just there as a continuum. But you know, for most people, that awareness is too dim, to be recognized in its pure value, you know, it’s true, it’s kind of full value, which, you know, all the scriptures tell us is Ananda, its inherent blissfulness. But usually, that’s kind of clouded over by so many layers of things. But you know, what, like, you’re saying, eventually, burning through takes place where that where there’s no longer any shrouding even in the most intensive circumstances. For instance, my old teacher, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi used to say, Christ never suffered, even when he was on the cross, he couldn’t have suffered, you know, because he was that pure blissful being. And he knew that so fully that no matter what was happening on the apparent levels, he couldn’t have lost that.

Kosi: So that’s actually my direct experience of that past life memory was that I was amazed by him, because he was calm, yes, at peace. And I was just angry, I was angry that I, you know, here I was a young guy strong and being killed. And there was nothing I could do about it. It wasn’t that I was a good guy, either. You know, it’s like, I was just angry that I was stuck in that situation. And I was amazed by him, because he was just so calm and teaching, you know, he was here he was teaching still, and forgiving these soldiers who I was also angry at them, you know, and then there was this moment of surrender when we crossed over which is really the essential piece, there has to be this willingness to surrender the mind and an end of this internal belief system, that what we’re saying to ourselves is true. And we can understand this on a conceptual level, but to actually burn through it takes time. And certainly, the exposure that I had to all these different teachers, I mean, being with such high level teachings, you know, being with the Dalai Lama being with guru, my being with Ganga Ji, you know, going to be with Aaron Ochoa. You know, certainly this life has been consumed by a profound spiritual flame. It’s a bonfire, it’s been a bonfire for a long time. So this started before I met Ganga tea, and then it deepened and deepened and deepened with Gandhiji.

Rick Archer: Yeah, yeah. And each Yeah, I mean, doesn’t need commentary. It’s good. But I just want to re emphasize this point we were just talking about, which is sometimes you hear people talking about oh, yeah, like people can be depressed, they can be miserable, they can be angry, and you have fun, those things can happen on some kind of surface level. But that’s if they really are enlightened. If that word means anything, then that’s really not the foundation or the predominant reality of their experience. The predominantly, there is this silent, blissful awareness, superficially, and maybe it might might seem predominant to outside observers, but not from their perspective, there could be these changing things taking place, just like clouds can be passing by the sun, the sun keeps shining,

Kosi: right? The clouds passing by is a great analogy. But I also think it’s a, you’re not entangled, right? You’re not entangled with the past, you’re not entangled with your potential future, there’s a you’re just free of that, because you are that spaciousness, the identity, in other words has to burn through, there has to be this burning through of this sense, I am me. And that takes time because we were in a physical body. And that sense is still there to some degree, but you’re no longer identified with it. You’re no longer identified with your body, you’re no longer identify with your circumstances. So when you’re not identified and you’re not entangled, then there’s this clarity of presence, you know, so you’re just clear, aware presence and when you’re clear where presence and not entangled, then the experience is just happiness and, and the body goes through its thing, you know, you’re still feeling stuff because that’s the nature of the body. And it’s the nature of the mind in unison with your emotions as a kind of warning system. You know, what I mean? Is the purpose of the mind is to keep you alive. Yeah. The mind you need the ego you need the body to be in a physical form.

Rick Archer: It’s glad to hear you say that, you know, because somebody Have some people talk as though the ego is gonna get totally annihilated, I don’t think you can function as human being if it were it, it’s a, it’s a faculty which is usurped, it’s, you know, it’s taken on more authority than it deserves, so to speak. But when everything is kind of put a right, then it still functions, it’s just take some more of a subsidiary role.

Kosi: Well, this is also where the vigilance comes into. Because, you know, Ramana talked about Vasanas, you know, these ego, these very powerful egoic tendencies, and they have to be fully burned through for liberation, which is the constant realization of the truth of who you are. But there has to be a vigilance or a resolve to really pay attention. For me, it’s paying attention, like, oh, you know, like, I’m buying into this thought, you know, whatever that might be, or I’m becoming entangled in something, and then just stop. So you’re not actually doing vigilance, you are vigilance, you are the presence that’s aware. So you’re very aware. And because the mind can get very tricky, and we’ve all experienced that, where we can have these moments of profound awakening, and then get tricked into thinking that our internal conversation is true, that our perspective is right. And whatever the other person is saying is totally wrong. And this is what leads to war, it all comes down to this identification with this idea of me. And that idea of me can include a culture and it can include a religious belief, and it can include an entire nation. So this is where the US and then comes from.

Rick Archer: I was just listening to Dylan song yesterday with God on our side. Yeah. Do you feel like you’ve burned through all your Vasanas? Are you still burning through?

Kosi: I you know, I don’t know the answer to that. I know that I’m very vigilant. And I know that Gandhiji stretch, stressed vigilance. And for me, that’s my focus is on the vigilance and the resolve in the presence. I do feel that something major happens, Rick. And, you know, it’s actually after I met, Carina, mais Shri Rama corinium. I came into my life. And it wasn’t a plan thing. But she did come in and there was this son, this change that I can’t explain, but there was this burning through of something. And it could be, like I said earlier in our conversation, it could be centuries and centuries and centuries, that this particular incarnation is incarnated, incarnated so many times, that this burning has been going on for a lot longer than we realize. But there was definitely a shift of profound magnitude that happened after I came into my life. And some of that is because of her divine devotion. Certainly, she’s very devoted to God, very devoted to service. She’s a living saint. So she actually feeds lepers with her bare hands. And when you go to a meditation retreat, all of her teaching is primarily in silence. And you’ll get in silence for an hour and a half straight. But she’ll sit for hours and then feed everyone that comes to the retreat by hand. This is a completely different kind of consciousness. And the connection to Ramana is that her mother was an ardent devotee of Ramana, when Ramana was still in physical form. And so Ramana one day on a very rare occasion, looked at Kareena mais mother and said, You’re going to give birth to Thai. And in the Tamil language, Thai is the Divine Mother, or an avatar. So she was born awake. So she’s a true avatar and an avatar is in a completely different realm. And her focus is on the Vedic the ancient Vedic teachings. But there, you know, in terms of the Vasanas, to answer your question, there is this burning through of the Vasanas to such a degree, that there is a clear, aware presence that I can’t explain in words. But I started to notice it and sought song that there was this shift that was happening, and people were having these profound experiences and thoughts on that were different from what I had experienced with Gandhiji. So I just noticed that there was something else another dimension to this, that is so beyond the mind, that there’s really no way to even articulate it. But there was definitely a burning through to such a degree that my experience is one of lasting happiness. So everything that God he told me for years and years and years, I would definitely describe myself as one of the rock people, you know, she talks about, you know, people that take a long time to get it. I would say I was a rock person, but then And when you burn through as a rock person, then you find the diamond right inside of you. And then you realize that you’re the radiance. But then it goes below it goes even beyond the radiance or any conceptual idea. And then there’s this clarity of presence is the only way I can describe it. And, but it all happened so quickly, you know, I was in with Aaron Ochoa Shiva had these profound experiences there that just remind blowing is very similar to the Christ experiences were happening in India. And then a few months later, five months later, comes into my life. I don’t think it was an accident at all. And not at all, nothing is No, I just think it was divine providence. And then in a recent interview, she said that, in one of her incarnation, she was the mother of Christ. And this makes sense, you know, because she’s the mother of Christ. And I was there at the, at the crossover of Christ. So there’s a connection. Yeah. Because beyond this realm, and certainly, you know, like, when you’re talking about purely the mental inquiry of opening up to discover who am I really, right, this is the gift of Ramana. This is a very powerful, important piece. But it’s not the only thing. There’s this mystery of this transmission of God, deities, that isn’t a completely different realm that just because we can’t see something, doesn’t mean it’s not real. And a lot of times, what we see and we think is real isn’t real at all, because anything that’s phenomenal, you know, isn’t gonna last, it’s not the real thing.

Rick Archer: I’ll make a couple of quick comments on things you’ve been saying. And then you can springboard off those. But one is about the vigilance you know, and it kind of reminds me an analogy of learning to ride a bicycle. I remember when I first learned to ride a bicycle, my backyard was a little bit sloped, and so they, my father kind of helped me on the bicycle, and I kind of managed to coast down and crash into the garden. And, you know, then I kept trying that until I got pretty good at it. And then eventually, I could, you know, ride down through other backyards, it was sort of downhill coasting. And then next thing I knew I was out in the street, and I was balancing, but it was still, I still had to be like, hyper vigilant, and there was still a lot of falling off. You know, before riding a bicycle became second nature. But you know, still, I mean, Lance Armstrong can fall off his bicycle and sometimes does so. So even great teachers can sometimes trip up, you know, perhaps it’s a lapse in vigilance, that that they succumb to so even though it becomes second nature, it doesn’t mean one is invincible or invulnerable. And there, there still has to be this sort of vigilance, you know,

Kosi: right. And poverty said to your very last breath, and I think he’s right in that because I think the Maya or the illusion of life is very seductive. I call it eye candy. Yeah, so as we move through our life, you know, it’s like candy, you know, it’s like, wow, that’s, you know, that guy is really good looking, or that woman is really beautiful. Or, you know, like, I really would like to have a lot of money because then I could have that beautiful car, you know, the new car that came out or whatever. And so it’s seductive. So you have to be vigilant to your very last breath, because as long as you’re in a physical body, the mind can trick and trap you. And certainly this is one of the great gifts of Gangaji because he has spent so much time talking about the tricks and traps of the mind and the ego. And then the more you inquire then you become more and more naturally aware of what your mind is doing. So you’re no longer at the effect of the mind. I think in one of my podcasts, I called it riding the bull riding you’re the master of the mind instead of the mind leading around by the nose.

Rick Archer: There’s a beautiful Zen paintings, the 10 phases of awakening. The final one, he’s riding the bull, but um yeah, what was I just gonna say? Oh, I just gonna say there’s some great stories in the Vedic literature about people who fought they had Maya conquered you know, and then they it turns out they did and then they went off on some whole you know, thing where they got totally snookered by my and then eventually after quite some time realize oh my god got me Yeah.

Kosi: Yeah, you can get you can get trapped in even in spiritual culture I see that people start to emulate what it looks to be more spiritual. Like you have to have the white cotton outfit from India. And you know, like in fact, I went to a temple in kawaii I was with some friends and because they know I’m doing all this spiritual work, they thought I would be dressed in the Indian garb and I was just dressed you know, like with a T shirt and just like you were going to this temple and your your dress like that. I said, I’m an American, you know, t shirt and comfortable fans if you’re gonna go do it. juris thing you know. So I think that’s where you’d get set up against the myth of Enlightenment. From my own experience, I think it’s more you, the more you wake up, the more you liberate yourself from these egoic tendencies. It’s almost like you just have permission to be human, you know, just to make mistakes and be goofy. And, you know, like, Yeah, you get upset, you get mad about something, and then boom, you’re over. But I think the difference is you’re not entangled. So you might have a reaction to something but you’re not stuck in that reaction for a period of time.

Rick Archer: Why not learn on air? Right? That analogy? Yes, yes, yeah. The other thing that was mentioned, based on what you said is, I was just reading something the other day about how I heard I thought about this before, but how sometimes people are born very highly evolved. And maybe this doesn’t apply to someone like Corona Maya, who was born in Avatar, Alma. But um, many cases, they just sort of awakened spontaneously. And they don’t make really good teachers, sometimes, because they haven’t actually gone through all the hard knocks. So they can’t relate very well to people at various stages of their development. And so they just kind of sit there and maybe describe their experience, but there’s too much of a gulf between their description and what people are actually living. Whereas I mean, in the case of someone like yourself, although you do say on your website, that there’s no teaching your spiritual practices simply share your experience of simple direct self inquiry, perhaps having gone through all the normal stuff that everybody goes through, you’re a little bit better able to relate to people, whatever stage they’re at, and, you know, commiserate, or understand that

Kosi: I have tremendous compassion, because, you know, if, if anyone suffered, I suffered greatly, you know, because I was so identified as this, you know, the self hatred was strong, and I was identified with it. And whether it was conscious or unconscious, it was there, it was running me. But because of that, and because it’s been a long journey, and I’ve gone through the mystical experiences, I’ve gone through the mundane experiences. There’s something to be said for that. But the main thing is, I have unconditional love and compassion for the people that come to my songs. Because I know that awakening is, you know, like, it’s not, this is the real thing. You know, when you have an avatar come into your life and support you the way on is supporting me. It’s a powerful fire, and it can be experienced as excruciatingly painful, it can be very emotional, big emotions can come up, big fear can come up. And so the compassion is there, and the love is there. Because I know what that’s like, I know what it’s like to be at the effect of this roller coaster of your mind. I described it once, when I was growing up, I felt like I was on a roller coaster with my hair on fire. Because I was burning, and struggling with this mind wanting to break free and not able to do it. And part of what I’ve realized is that there’s this natural organic awakening, which is really wrong in his gift. Because when he was you know, when he was 16, and he met his father’s, you know, his father had died, he met, he became terrified of dying, he lay down on the ground, and he looked in his heart is really what happened. So he asked himself, who dies, what dies, but that inquiry drove his mind deeply into sight himself into the heart. And then he realized that which can never die, right. So this, this inquiry that’s looking into your heart begins a natural, organic evolution. And if you’re patient, it will burn through and you’re just know that you’re gonna make mistakes, know that you’re gonna get trapped by the mind or the ego or your identifications or your entanglements. And if you know that, and welcome that, then there’s this this natural evolution that’s allowed to happen. You know, like an acorn doesn’t become an oak tree overnight. I mean, if it did, it would be shocking. It would be like a sign sci fi movie, you know, like this acorn just grew up out of the ground or like Jack in the beanstalk. Right? It takes time for a tree to mature, and grow and blossom. And the same is true of spiritual inquiry, especially on the path of Ramana, which is the path this path, you know, I call it the path of freedom and stop, you know, the path to freedom is now freedom is now.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I think it also, I don’t know, personally, you know, having interviewed about 190 people now. You know, I’ve talked to all kinds of wonderful people, and I still haven’t been convinced that everyone is not still on the path. Let me phrase that more. Clearly. I just have the sense that the range of evolution is vast, and that regardless of how spiritually advance Someone might be late. If they’re still breathing, they’re still progressing. And you know, if you could step inside, crew minimize and see things, or rather Yeah, karuna might see things through her eyes. Regardless how advanced one might be, as many of these spiritual teachers, they might think, Whoa, I didn’t realize you could get this profound this is this is a little bit more than I, you know, kind of conceptualize. And yet I talked to many people who I kind of asked towards the end of the interview, like, where do you see it going from here? How, what’s the kind of leading edge for you now? And they look at me like, I’m crazy, like, Hey, I’m done, dude. But I don’t know, maybe it’s just my bias. Or it could could be. I’m misunderstanding

Kosi: the Neo Advaita trap. It’s the new invite this idea that you open up, you discover yourself as aware presence. And that’s it. Yeah. And I think there are degrees of realization or stages of realization. Papaji is known to have said when he was interviewed by David Godman that he only met in his lifetime, in his entire lifetime, Papaji only met two fully self realized beings. Ramana was one. And the other was Assad, who that lived in the jungle. And I don’t know anyone knows who this guy was, or what his name was, or maybe somebody does. But it was he didn’t tell David. But that tells me that there are levels or however you want to phrase it. It’s hard to phrase some of these things. But there’s stages. And I know, in my own experience, there’s a deepening. And it’s just profound, because you think, well, how can I possibly go any deeper, and then you do. And then you just fall in deeper. And then there’s just these deeper and deeper and deeper realizations. I know, like I wrote a book called absence of doubt, and back in 2004, and I interviewed Gangaji, for that book. And I was really trying to put a context around spiritual terms, because what I realized is based on your spiritual experience, whatever lineage is, you had been however you were raised, it affected how you saw the words even, like, you know, like, what was ego? What did it mean, what was mine. And so I wrote this book with her, you know, like doing this interview with going to try and put a context so that you could not overlook the depth of what Gangaji was sharing. Because I saw a lot at that time back in 2004. I saw a lot of people in the Sangha that were missing the depth, because of that idea. Oh, I right. recognize myself as this aware presence. I’m done.  Yeah. You know, there we go. Like off to the next thing.

Rick Archer: Well I’m glad you’re saying this. I mean, when I interviewed Gangaji, as I recall, she she herself said that, you know, there’s this continual deepening, and Adi Shanti, says the same thing. He said, for me, I’m always like, I’m just beginning. And I get flak from people, because I’m always talking about levels. But this is really what I mean, when I’m talking about it, which is that, you know, I understand the idea of it, you know, complete, indivisible wholeness, and that’s the ultimate reality. But as far as a human being living that is concerned, don’t rest on your laurels, you know, there could be so many degrees of deeper deepening or clarification or whatever you want to call it. And you know, you’re selling yourself short if you assume that you’ve already traversed them. All.

Kosi: Right, right. In fact, when I first encountered them, I came into my life, it was actually it was kind of upsetting to me when she came in because I, I never ever intended to leave Gangaji that was never in my mindset. I was so committed, and I still am very committed to going to GE and the truth and an inquiry in this whole lineage of teachers going back to Ramana. But I asked her, I said, you know, I get that, you know, Ramana is different, you know, he was 16 year old boy, he is living in India, he had this profound awakening. Why is he so different? It always haunted me this, this idea that, you know, he was different and when you go to India, especially when you’re with his master, which was you know, Ramana saw the mountain as his teacher and How incredible is that? That you can go to India and be in the within the presence of someone’s master that’s still in physical form. Yeah, that’s incredible. And so you know what, what made him different?

Rick Archer: Yes, this if Coronavirus

Kosi: I did. I didn’t know why she came in I said, you know, I’m really devoted to Ganga tea and to go to Tirana Ramana Maharshi. And, and how this was passed on, even though he doesn’t believe in lineages. And she she spent an entire weekend talking about the talking about this because I gave her this book that I made. It’s a coffee table book of just pictures of my experience of the mountain. And it was profound revelations that came just by Looking at Shiva, looking at this embodiment of Shiva, I gave her the book and she went through every single page. She was just amazed by this book. And then she spent the entire weekends explaining her mother’s relationship with Ramana. On that she, she, she assured me that she didn’t come to, you know, take anything away from my teaching. But she was here to support with the greatest love and compassion, which is what she does with everyone. But she explained to me that Ramana is not what we are perceiving. So we perceive that this 16 year old boy was afraid that after his father died, he suddenly became terrified of death, right. And then he had this awakening. But he said, she said he was millions and millions and millions of incarnations, that he was a rishi in many, many different lifetimes, you know, sat on the banks, probably of the Kosi River, even who knows, and composed music, these ancient ancient chants that are filled and fused with this vibration of truth. And so part of what I do in my sight songs rig is I bring in the Mantra as a form of inquiry, a very simple inquiry. It’s not hard, it’s not like any Mantra,

Rick Archer: but like the ones current my Gibson,

Kosi: yeah, anyone’s any it can be any Mantra of you know, the Nama Shivaya. It can be anything. Sita ROM is that’s one of our favorites is Sita ROM, there’s a group of us that it’s really starting to take off my teaching in Europe, and there’s a group that’s really part of this, and they sing for me, and it’s just beautiful. So but we use it as a simple inquiry. And, and I think that’s how it was originally taught. And what I mean by that is like, okay, so you’re chanting this chants, you feel it in your throat, you hear it with your ears, but what’s deeper than your throat and what’s deeper than your ears? What inside of you is receiving the sound? Now, I’m using the Mantra to do this because it’s infused with the grace of the ancient races, right. But I’m also using it just as a as a sound as a tone. You could actually use a motorcycle engine and do the same thing. But different sounds have different effects. Yeah, different sounds have different effects. But still, it’s the same, you

Rick Archer: know, heavy metal music is different than Mozart. No,

Kosi: it certainly would be a little harder to the presence of Whitesnake. But you know what I mean, there’s certainly the Mantra helps. Specific vibration. This makes what I do very different immediately from what Gangaji does. I mean, certainly singings happens spontaneously and going to do SOT songs. But this is an intentional use of the Mantra as a very simple form of inquiry that bypasses the mind. And what I’ve discovered over the past year is it’s very effective, really, really works. And it’s very supportive in a very gentle way for people. I’ve been

Rick Archer: doing Mantra meditation for 45 years myself, it’s very effective. I interviewed Michael James a few weeks ago, and he lived in turiya, vommuli for years, and he he translated a lot of Ramana Maharshi works from Tamil into English and so on. And he had an interesting take on Atman. For Chara, he was saying that if someone hands you a book and says, What’s in this book, you don’t just sit there with the book saying what’s in this book, what’s in this book, what’s in this book, you open the book and you, you investigate? investigate what’s in the book experientially, so, you know, he felt like the true meaning of the chart was definitely not sitting and thinking, who am I? Who am I? Who am I? That’s like saying what’s in this book, but it was more of a, an inner exploration. And, you know, by that definition, anything which actually is really conducive to an inner exploration could be defined as Atman Vichara. You know, like this Mantra thing you’re talking about, or, you know, props over a number of things.

Kosi: There’s no question, right? Because it’s an intentional inquiry. It’s a simple inquiry, it’s just a single question, what receives the sound what inside of you receive the sound? This is a very intentional inquiry not to know what receives the sound, you know, because you can say, well, I received the sound right, but it’s deeper than the feeling I have me, I am me or this, you know, what is receiving the vibration of sound what’s receiving your senses? So it is an inquiry it is a Chara was another thing that happens in sound to do it instead of just thinking. But you know, one thing just real quick that you touched on that I really want to emphasize because Ramana said the only true inquiry was the repetition of who am I? And I think the reason he said that is because that question the mind doesn’t have an answer for it, the mind is used to having an answer and collecting that information. But that particular question, it can’t come to an answer. And there’s an energy associated with it like so this cycle of repeating the question creates a kind of energy that burns through these Vasanas. And this is why I think Ramana emphasize the use of the question, Who am I? And I just wanted to say that, because you touched on it, because some people think, Oh, it’s just a question on your mind, I get that I’m awareness. And that’s it. But it’s actually deeper than that, because it generates a fire, it generates an energy, that particular question.

Rick Archer: And ultimately, if the question is going to be answered, the question has to be transcended. Because who you are is not something that’s going the it’s not a verbal answer, it’s going to satisfy that.

Kosi: He’s even asking the question.

Rick Archer: And that’s actually the way a Mantra works. It can work, which is that, you know, it’s a sound like you say, and but in repeating it, the sound becomes finer, finer, finer, finer, and disappears. And when it disappears entirely, what you’re left with is no Mantra, no, you know, no repetition, just pure awareness, which is where you are,

Kosi: right. And you can just saying and have the same thing happened without even doing any kind of conscious inquiry, that when you put it in the context of the Mantra, and in the context of conscious inquiry, wow. It’s very potent. And so what I’ve seen over the past six, especially over the past six months is this very potent transmission, and I attribute it to the Mantra itself, because it’s ancient. It’s these Vedic chants coming way back for, you know, 1000s of years. That also attributed to the fact that, for mysterious reasons, has come into my life, for divine reasons, divine providence, to fulfill whatever this life is supposed to offer the world. And right now it’s showing up as Satsang. And inquiry, using, you know, embracing these ancient techniques is certainly silence as part of that inquiry as part of it. And then the Mantra is the other. And I really believe that in ancient India, it wasn’t just the mental inquiry, it was all three, it was silence. It was the inquiry, and then it was the Mantra. And if you have all three, it supports a profound and immediate deepening into your, the truth of who you are as Atman, as happiness as fulfillment, right? But it’s this burning energy that burns through the Vasanas. Because if you have the awake experience of recognizing the infinitude, but you don’t burn through all the way through this identification, or these egoic, Vasanas, then you’re really at the risk of being trapped more easily. And if you burn through them, then you’re not as strict you’re not as easily tricked by the mind.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I think you’re right. And I mean, not only the three things you mentioned, but there are any number of engines that could be added to that train. I mean, you know, for instance, our Vedas, you know, punch of karma, it could have a purifying effect on the body, which could help to your fact I was just ran into a friend, he’s going to Nepal tomorrow for 40 days of punch of karma, and I and I are beta and I. So he said, Well, the first thing we’re going to do is something which is supposed to like burn off the impressions and the subtle emotional body, and it’s, like, great skin touching when you get back. But But um, and then, you know, yoga, I mean, a lot of a lot of times these practices are seen as sort of competitive fee competitive approaches, but they couldn’t be complimentary.

Kosi: They’re definitely cultural conflict. I came to say that we’re right now. So I’m mentally competent. But basically, yes, I had a vision, actually, because I recognize that the planet is in such trouble right now. There’s an intense energy on the planet. Actually, Ahmed told us this. I was in India last year for three weeks at her ashram in Andhra Pradesh, India. And she said that the what happened on 1212 12 or 1220 ones, was not just a one time event, that the planetary alignment that occurred then actually changed the magnetic sphere of the entire Earth. And so if you’re not grounded in a kind of spirituality, it makes your mind go kind of crazy. And she said it was really important for people like myself that are awake, to be really present and compassionate and and help people that are really struggling and suffering at this particular time in the Kali yuga, Kali yuga, because we’re still in Kali yuga, the Dark Age, the dark spiritual age, and so it’s very important just to be aware, to be grounded in your meditation and have many different modalities. So I had this vision, called, and I created this program out of it called the clear way. And it’s basically taking what was formerly hidden in secret in the inner circle, if you will, of the teacher, or in ancient India, the secret teachings that were never really exposed except to the closest disciples. And I want to bring that out and offer it as a program. But it includes multiple modalities. So it’s the monitor, it’s the silence, it’s the inquiry, but it’s yoga, its breath work, you know, it’s it’s other modalities to support the liberation, certainly, but also to support those who feel called to offer thoughts on people who feel called to incorporate an aware presence in their healing or therapeutic practice. And so it’s kind of, it’s something that just came to me when I was in the Philippines, that this is one of the things that’s needed on this planet right now, is to have more people out there, offering a conscious, aware inquiry, through silence through the monitor through these different modalities, that it was important to do this now. And so it’s not just a program, and I just kind of put it on the website just to see what people how they would react to it. Because I said, it’s 10 years, it’s a 10 year commitment. Because it takes at least 10 years to burn through these over these layers. And I would suspect the criticism I’m gonna get it was like, Well, how do you know because somebody could wake up quicker than somebody else. And that’s true. So you don’t really know. But I’m basically saying, this is a life kind of commitment. If you really, if you really are serious about your own liberation, and you feel called to be in service, or to work with other people in a healing practice, or in Satsang. It takes time. And it takes a deep, deep, deep commitment to the truth of who you are. So I put that together, but it’s not it’s not really a workshop, you know, it’s like funny, because in this, this mire that we’re in, there’s only that’s the only way I know how to present it is like, like a chorus or whatever. But it’s so much more than that.

Rick Archer: Lots of good stuff in what you just said, first of all, this thing about world consciousness shifting, and that could cause a lot of people to freak out if they’re not prepared for it. Very true. I I’ve thought about that for a long time. I was out on a boat ride on Lake Lucerne in about 1974 With with marshy, Mahesh Yogi and he was there was this comment coming at that point, Kahoot tech or whatever it was called. And people were all freaked out because he thought it was gonna be a harbinger of, you know, God knows what for the for the world. And but we got into serious discussion about well, yeah, well, consciousness is really shifting, it’s going to be shifting profoundly over the next generation or so, what’s if what’s that gonna do for people? I mean, what’s going to happen in society, because there’s so many things in the world that are that have no, no reason to exist in an enlightened age, you know, that just don’t fit. And somehow that’s all going to have to crumble. And so he kind of went to this whole talk about Yeah, a lot of things are really going to be shaken up. And a lot of apparently solid institutions are going to fall and, and economies and, you know, all sorts of things are gonna happen. And so but people said, well, what can we do to survive it? He said, Hang on yourself.

Kosi: And Ana would say meditate,

Rick Archer: yeah, was well, he would have said the same thing. And what we’re seeing now and Arab Spring, and then, you know, not so springy things happening in Egypt and Syria. And so it’s, I mean, there’s always been problems in the world, we had World Wars one and two, and you know, so there’s always been crazy stuff. But I kind of feel like we’re entering into a time when transformation of world consciousness is just going to result in the shaking up of a lot of stuff, which just doesn’t it can’t comfortably exist anymore. In in a higher, more conscious world.

Kosi: I think that’s what we’re seeing actually reckon if you look at the world stage right now, I think it’s a crumbling of those institutions of the fight. The economy in Europe is very unstable. The economy in the United States is unstable, you know, with the amount of debt that we’ve incurred, it’s unstable. It’s not we haven’t experienced this kind of debt before. And then you got all these wars breaking out and, you know, horror, the horror of war, which, you know, ends up killing lots of innocent people, children, women, men, you know, older men, older women, grandmothers and grandfathers are being just annihilated by chemical warfare,

Rick Archer: which most of us most of us haven’t experienced that stuff, we live in the US. And we’ve been, we’ve been very blessed. We’ve been around since the Civil

Kosi: War. And well, my, my dad was a World War Two. So he flew the seven teams, and he saw a lot of action. Too much action, it really affected his life he suffered. He was very functional. You know, he was very successful in his career, and in all of that, but he was really damaged emotionally, by what he experienced. And it was never diagnosed until the last two years of his life. So there’s the trauma of war, as well. So you can be traumatized, even if you’re not in the war zone. So none of us are in the war zone. But it certainly can be traumatizing to see this, to see that one government would just drop a bomb on this, you know, group of people and annihilate them in it’s a trauma. It’s a trauma that we experienced, and certainly in 911, that was a very traumatic experience, even though we weren’t in the Twin Towers, certainly just observing it was a kind of trauma. And then we’re all connected. So we don’t even realize how deeply connected we are. Because we’re so so we’re so attracted to the illusion that we’re separate, right? But when that kind of trauma happens, we actually feel it in the astral body. If you want to describe it that way. I don’t know how you describe.

Rick Archer: Yoda said it best when you’re on the Deathstar blew up the planet Alderaan whatever he says, I feel oh no, maybe it was the other guy Obi Wan Kenobi said, I just felt a great disturbance force.

Kosi: That was the first time I think that movie Star Wars. And I was 16. I was 16 year old years old when that came out. And I remember standing in lines and seeing it more than once and standing in lines more than once. Because of the force. Yeah, there was something about things like the forest, you know, like, I just, I wanted to know what that force was, because there was something about it, that seemed true, that it was more than just a sci fi movie. And certainly, it turns out, there is more to it, right? Sure.

Rick Archer: George, George Lucas was a Buddhist, and he understood that. But or is, but uh, I just want to come back to one other thing you said, which is that you’re talking about this 10 Year program and a lot of different modalities. And a lot of people around the world, it really does seem that there’s that saying, you’ve probably heard that the next Buddha is the Sangha. You know, there’s, there’s this proliferation of teachers all over the world. And, you know, I don’t think they’re, I don’t know, if there is such a thing as an ultimate teacher, everybody’s at different stages of the game. But everybody, you know, has something to offer. And people gravitate toward that, which is a value to them, you’ve gone through a number of stages yourself. And you know, even though you may have graduated from one stage to the next, you certainly still respect and honor each stage you went through it had its its value for you. And purpose. Yeah, and maybe still does. So yeah, just just want to throw that out there. And it’s kind of a theme of my show, in a way is to offer this potpourri of, of different voices, different teachers, so people can familiarize themselves with a range. And that you know, whereas on the one hand, it’s really good to commit yourself to something and dig one deep root Well, rather than a bunch of shallow wells. On the other hand, I’ve seen people get kind of stuck in a particular thing and just hang on to it even long since it began to be it was valuable for them, you know, and refuse to move to look at anything else. So there’s some kind of a balance between those two that I guess you have to find for yourself,

Kosi: right. And it’s certainly not like, I’m not going to become a Yogini. But I’m going to invite people to yogini in terms of the yoga, the physical yoga, I’m talking, I’m talking about that aspect of moving the physical body. But I wanted to include that in the clear way program. But have, you know, someone that’s really an expert in yoga and a physical, Kundalini yoga or whatever, there’s many different modalities, even within yoga, but to bring that in, not because I expect everyone to be a physical yoga person, but to introduce that as another way of another inquiry, because that was initially what yoga was all about. It was the physical movement of the body. But the purpose was to discover the Atman was discover the truth. But you don’t you don’t necessarily have to stay in one mindset, and I think of it remains to mental, then you miss the fire. So certainly, ramen is powerful. There’s no question about that. But then these other these ancient modalities, when you bring them all together, including the char,

Rick Archer: then wow, there’s no conflict.

Kosi: There’s no conflict and then you even empower people to go out. So there’s basically the creation of people that can go out and serve. That’s what this model is, so it’s not about me as the single great guru or teacher. It’s it’s really about empowering people by bringing people together. So we can deepen together with inquiry using different modalities and see where that see where that leads can use a certainly a long time, you know, the interesting to see if anyone completes it, you know, yeah. Because you have to make a certain commitment to that will outlive itself or ability evolve into something else? I don’t know. But it was, it came to me as just a moment, like a download from the universe, that this is what’s needed is a is a structure and a platform to support this kind of liberation awakening, and being in service, which is slightly different from the modality of being Ramana. Like, who cares about the world, the world will take care of itself, know who you are, that can lead to this idea? Well, I don’t have to do anything. Right. It’s all a dream. So why do I have to worry about it? But instead, you can play in the dream? Yeah, conscious way. And alleviate suffering.

Rick Archer: I think it’s really important. It’s a theme that a lot of people are waking up to, and, you know, certainly great saints, like both of both of the armors we’ve been talking about and and others have been, you know, displayed and embodied. Which is Yeah, fine. The world is an illusion, but okay, get out there and help, you know, get out, get out there and do something because it’s not true on all levels, that the world is an illusion.

Kosi: The world is infused with truth. So, right, it’s like, it’s not just the illusion. I love that the how Papaji left Ramana because it was during that time where India was being partitioned between India and Pakistan. And Papaji. His family was in Pakistan, it was very dangerous. People were being murdered left and right. It was it was like a civil war. And Papaji didn’t want to leave Ramana he found his teacher, he was his master. He didn’t want to leave, he was in bliss. And Ramana is said now, you know, why aren’t you going to help your family? He said, Well, it’s all a dream. I don’t you know, like, my it’s a dreams. It’s an illusion. It’s my Why care about my family. And in Ron, his response was so classic, because he’s your dream hand is perfectly safe in the mouth of the dream Tiger. Right? Why not be the dream son, and rescue your family in the dream? Yeah. So that’s is that beautiful. I love that. And then Papaji recognized immediately that he was telling him to leave. And he pronounced to him, walked around him three times, collected the dirt from his feet, put in his pocket, and he went on this adventure, to save his family. And through many miraculous events, he was able to bring them out of Pakistan without being murdered. And in fact, he was on a train, and everyone was taken off. But he went and stood with the Muslims. He just had this intimation I better go stay with stand with the Muslim people. So he did that. All the Hindus were taken off the train and executed well, this is the train that Papaji was on. So this is the level of intensity of what Papaji had to deal with. But he totally trusted in Ramana, and the grace that Ramana represents, and he knew that he would be taken care of on this journey. And he was, but he never saw Ramana. Again, people, a lot of people don’t realize that, you know, poverty, poverty was sent away by Ramana. He never saw him again, in physical form. But as Papaji said, My master never left. Because he had realized the truth of who he was beyond the conceptual right beyond the summon preceding the infinite to he knew he was that same infinitude. And that’s a big difference. And then you can go deeper even from there. That’s the amazing part. It’s like, wow,

Rick Archer: cool. Well, this, this is great. I’m kind of reaching the two hour mark. And I don’t want to go on too long for for the sake of the listeners. But I really appreciate the kind of multi dimensional nuanced, all embracing perspective, perspective that you have, it’s, I consider to be a mature form of spirituality. I just think that, you know, there’s certain teachers who kind of latch on to a particular idea and they just hammer away at that and reject or dismiss anything outside of that. And I just don’t consider that to be as mature. It’s just not, it’s just not the way the universe works. You know, In my Father’s house, there are many mansions. It’s a multifarious, diverse creation, which sure is all ultimately only one thing, you know, and it’s pure essence. But at the very same time, it’s, you know, the both ends situation where, you know, all these various dimensions of life have their relevance and their value and You can’t really it’s not full Enlightenment if you glom on to one to the exclusion of the others, any, any more than it’s an, you know, valid to sort of get focused on some narrow boundary to the exclusion of the wholeness. You know, the true the full package is both the oneness and the diversity that you know, all bundled into one great greater hole, which is what Brahman means. That means the Great, the great,

Kosi: or the great mystery, which is what the Native American described it as, and I love that one can Tonka Yeah, the great mystery, because it is such a mystery, you know? And then when we embrace the mystery, we’re willing to embrace that, then we can be present to what is it’s more inclusive, right? It’s not so narrow.

Rick Archer: Exactly. I mean, inclusive is the word if you don’t embrace the book, the entire mystery, the full enchilada, then, then it’s not. There’s something missing it is there’s some fragmentation, some some kind of narrowness exclusivity. And it’s just there’s, there’s more yet to discover.

Kosi: That’s right. That’s right. And there is value in calling off the search, especially if you’re searching or you’re even addicted, like I was mentioning earlier to the bliss or, you know, the next spiritual high, or the next exciting experience. There is value and going deeper in a particular teaching or lineage. So that you don’t get spread so thin I got early on in my searching, the Dalai Lama said that even Yeah, so you know, he said, You have to pick one, it’s okay. When you’re first starting out to try and many different things taste many different teachings and lineages, but eventually pick one so that you can get the depth at the time I didn’t like that idea. Because I was a minister by that point, you know, in a multifaith ministry, right? So we embraced all these different traditions. But I finally understood the wisdom in that because the problem was, we had no depth. Or you as you said, we had the it’s shallow, lots of little shallow ditches, but not the deep. You have a deep well, yeah, and picking one doesn’t

Rick Archer: mean you’re gonna get into the psychology of my thing is the best thing. And everybody else is like, you know, it’s just that okay, this is this is my chosen path. And all the other ones are of great value for those who have chosen them. And we’re all just ultimately on the same boat.

Kosi: Yeah, and thank you so much. I so appreciate this opportunity to speak with you. Really, it’s been great.

Rick Archer: Yeah, very enjoyable. Yeah, I could go on all day, as I sometimes say is really nice. So maybe we’ll do it again sometime?

Kosi: No, definitely. I’m totally open to that. Yeah, my schedule is getting more and more busy, which is a good thing. But yeah, certainly, we’ll work it out. Yeah. Do you want to do it again, we’ll do it again.

Rick Archer: Yeah, so eventually, I can do what I can with my I have 1000 people on the waiting list. So I could do one a day for three years.

Kosi: The queue at the end of the line, time I get to the top, you know, it’ll be a year or so from two or three.

Rick Archer: Let me make a few wrap up points that I always make. So whoever I’m addressing the audience now, you’ve been listening to a conversation with Kosi. And her website is Kosi.co. Not that CLM but.co. And I’ll of course be linking to that from her page on batgap.com. And there also you’ll find links to her books or ebooks on Amazon.

Kosi: I have only assets a doubt is on Amazon, and it’s an older version. We’re in the profit process of repurposing all of my books.

Rick Archer: But I can update your page to like a year from now or something you can tell me to change some link or something. I’ll do that. So

Kosi: I’m coming out with a new book called Organic awakening that’s going to be released in October. But I have several other books that I’ve written under the name JL which was my birth name that are being repurposed and they’re just not ready

Rick Archer: yet. Okay. Manana case from cosies page on on batgap.com. I’ll link to all things Kosi. And there also, you’ll find a link to a discussion group about this particular interview, and also a general discussion area for those who like to engage in those things. There is a link to an audio podcast, so you can subscribe in iTunes and just listen to the audio if you’d like to do that. There’s a Donate button, which I appreciate people clicking. There is a link to a email signup thing. So you’ll be notified by email about once a week when I post a new interview. And that just about covers it. There’s also a Yahoo chat group, which I think to some place or other on the site that is smaller and kind of, you know, a little bit more less chatty than the general chat group on BatGap. So if you explore you may find that so I think that’s just about it. Next weekend, I’ll be doing two interviews, one with Katherine and Room and another with a very interesting teacher I just discovered named a naughty, naughty and kind of excited about both of those. So thanks for listening or watching and we’ll see you next time.

Kosi: Thank you so much Namaste

Rick Archer: Namaste