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Rick Archer: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer, Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of interviews with spiritually Awakening people. I’ve conducted over 430 of these by now. And if this is new to you, and you’d like to check out the previous ones, just go to batgap.com. And look under the path, excuse me the past interviews menu, where you’ll see all the previous ones organized in several different ways. This show consumes most of our time remains in mind, and wouldn’t be possible to do this without the support of appreciative listeners and viewers. So we really appreciate those who have been supporting it and if you feel inclined to do so, there’s a Donate button on every page of the website batgap.com. My guest today is my friend Joi Sharp. I interviewed Joi about six, seven years ago. And we felt that it was sort of time for a repeat. Joi lives in Ridgeway Colorado. And I’ve been seeing Joi for nearly 20 years at events, Amma events, Mata Amritanandamayi. And I didn’t really know her at first, but then we’ve gotten to know each other over the years. And so even since the interview, we’ve been having meals together and taking walks together and all and I think we have a nice rapport and I have great respect for Joi. And I think that people are going to enjoy this interview. I’m gonna read a brief bio over here just to give you a sense of her background, in case you didn’t see the first interview with her, which I actually encourage you to watch if you’d like this one because it was a lot of good stuff in there. Joi was aware of the unseen magic of presence at a very early age. She remembers being more drawn to this mystery than anything else. This led her to delve into many traditions of spirituality. After a spontaneous awakening at age 28. Joi spent two years on a blissful honeymoon of spirit before plunging into a deep period of emotional purging and healing. Among her healers were a powerful Lakota medicine man with whom she traveled for two years. And a group of Yogananda disciples who had developed a powerful way of unlocking unconscious beliefs using kinesthesiology. She worked with them three times a week for two years. During this period, the formless aspect of the Divine Mother appeared to Joi and she became began a very intense journey. Joi met Amma in 1993, and she realized that Amma was the same mother that had captured her heart and soul. Joi spent nine years in almost Indian ashram and then two years in Tiruvannamalai, at Ramana’s ashram. When Joi came home from India, she was completely exhausted, and her seeker drive fell away. She began sitting with Adyashanti, who helped her understand all that had taken place within her being. Joi began teaching in 2006. With Amma’s and Adya’s blessings. Joi continues to be inspired and moved toward what life could be if we let go to our inner potential, which is the ultimate intelligence of all creation. So how’d that go Joi? Does that sound like you?
Joi Sharp: Yeah, yeah, that was really well done.
Rick Archer: Good. Well, you wrote it.
Joi Sharp: Yeah,
Rick Archer: I just read it.
Joi Sharp: That’s right.
Rick Archer: And you also wrote a book, which I’ve been reading, which is very well written and has a lot of good stuff in it. I have about four pages of notes here that I’ve excerpted from that book that we, you know, we use as kind of main points to talk about. And I think there are two things that I probably end up talking about a lot with you today that don’t get talked about a lot in these interviews, or in the spiritual traditions in general these days, the spiritual community. One is devotion. And another is the nervous system. And I think both are very important devotion, because I think it’s the blossoming of that as a natural stage in people’s evolution. And sometimes, non duality comes across as rather dry. And in fact, sometimes people in the non dual community criticize devotion as being dualistic. And secondly, the nervous system because it’s my understanding and experience that the nervous system is the instrument through which we live any of this, you know, I mean, if we didn’t have a nervous system, a brain the whole physical structure, also its subtle components. There’s a subtle aspect of the nervous system, this would not be a living reality. And so it’s an important consideration factors and something that perhaps ought to be better understood.
Joi Sharp: Yeah, and this is, this is part of, interestingly enough, it’s going on my devotion to her, the gift that she gave me was to really start to explore that nervous system, and what the being what the body is experiencing, through its devotion. And it’s, it’s a, it’s a real, amazing dance, that the being starts to experience through being able to open to what it’s devoted to. And so they’re, they’re very much tied into one another, the devotion aspect. And the being, which includes the the nervous system, the brain, the mind, and all these very, very fascinating functions that occur there, there’s a lot going on there that we can really start to explore within our own being. So how, how do you want to start with you, I just start just talking about the devotional aspect first
Rick Archer: doesn’t matter. Whatever comes to mind that this, I think this interview, interview will be kind of a combination between me kind of jogging your, your memory, or your thought process with little points I’ve written down, and okay, and whatever we spontaneously talk about as we go along. Okay, we can do both. And, you know, and as I always say, to my guests, if you if you have something in mind, and I’m not in the points not coming up, or I’m not asking the question, just come out with it, you know, just like we would a normal conversation.
Joi Sharp: Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. You know, so devotion, you know, we’re, we’re evolving right now. And we’re gonna go through different levels of our way. Right. And devotion, for me has been that it’s, it’s, it keeps revealing a new way to relate to this devotional aspect that I’ve experienced pretty much my whole spiritual journey. You know, devotion. really is, is what we value. You know, I mean, so we can be devoted to really anything in life, in anything that has deep value for us. And the value is something that’s already, it’s already in our being, it’s already in place. So some people are going to value their children, and some people are going to value, you know, being in service, whatever that looks like. For me, what showed up early in life was this presence this God, I mean, it was like God was everywhere. And that became stronger and stronger. And the value of course, I didn’t know that at the time, as as such something that I valued. But now looking back, I could see that I really did, it was something that I continually try to access. And in the early days, I wanted it, I wanted it with an intense longing, I thought it was maybe going to really helped me, you know, my mind interpreted that longing, as a certain maybe having a certain outcome, that it was going to kind of take me out into some other heaven, some other blissful place. But over time, that devotion has evolved.
Rick Archer: Let me say a couple things that I heard Maharshi say at least 100 times and see what you think about them. This might take me a minute. So state, marshy, Mahesh Yogi, he was my teacher for many years. Yeah. One is that he often said that. Devotion is a stage that can’t really begin to blossom significantly until the self is realized. Because he said, Until you know who you are, how can you really know what anything else is. And that once the self is realized, there’s a foundation or upon which profound appreciation of the creation can really begin to blossom. And he said that prior to that attempt, it would be like a small pond trying to want rise up in great tidal waves, it would only stir up the mud at the bottom. But when the self has been established, then it’s like this is like an ocean and the ocean can rise up in great waves without stirring up the mud. And he spoke of devotion as being a natural consequence of or actually almost synonymous with the ability to appreciate profoundly Yeah, go ahead, respond to that bit.
Joi Sharp: No, no, that’s, that’s, that’s really beautiful. And, and I’ll be the first to admit that in those early years of devotion that it was, it was pretty infantile. And it And I liked the way that he said how it stirs it up. Because that’s also my experience. Because those those initial stages of devotion, what really starts to open us up to something other than ourselves, just that aspect of openness that’s going to start to generate a more purifying energy. Because we’re getting out of our way, we’re starting to say, Oh, this is what I want. And you can feel that in your nervous system, right? So here we are, experiencing what’s happening in our being, through opening up, and, and also what you just shared about what Maharishi said, we don’t really get to that true devotional place until we realize health. I can honestly say, Now, I know what that feels like. That Thy will be done. Place that complete availability for life, to move through us as an instrument, right? This is where we’re going. And I just love how this is starting to work together. instrument and devotion. Yeah, good.
Rick Archer: He also said that, you know, it may reach a climax in which appreciation is so profound, that you know, actual sort of God consciousness, Dawn’s appreciation of God, and direct, intimate personal relationship with God. And he said, it was like, you know, if there’s an artist, and he’s a really great artist, and but nobody appreciates his work. He just kind of sits there and does his work. But if he keeps hearing that there’s this guy who lives in this town, and he really gets it, he really appreciates my work, you know, as I appreciate it, then that artists would come to meet that man, the man wouldn’t even have to go to meet him, the artist would come to because he would go on a meet someone who has such deep appreciation. So he says, that’s kind of where it is between the devotee and God, when the appreciation has reached it’s such a significant degree.
Joi Sharp: Yeah. And that’s going to get tested. Big, big way. Right. And that’s the journey, right? That that devotion to truth, or however, we interpret it, our journey, it’s, it’s gonna get tested again, and again and again, where, you know, what, explain to expectations we might have about our journey, hopes, settle places that we’re going to want to hide or hang on to it because devotion is going, it’s going to the whole point of devotion is to get us out of being wrapped up about ourselves, and our life, and our awakening, and our Enlightenment, our need for a certain experience. You know, that’s, that’s it. And then the more mature devotion becomes, it’s just not our life anymore, is it? It’s completely, it’s completely let go of, and as we open up to that which we devote ourselves to. Surrender becomes the way.
Rick Archer: Yeah, let’s, let’s talk about surrender a bunch in a minute. Okay, I just want to make one final point, before it slips in mind and have you respond to that, and that is that finally, he said that there may come a stage in which the sort of the God consciousness phase is shifting into unity. And there may be a feeling that one is losing devotion because there’s no longer the I thou relationship, that there had been, you know, and so one might feel like a little bit of chagrin, you know, like, what’s happening Am I losing this? But he often quoted Shankar as having said, the intellect imagines duality, for the sake of devotion, that and chakra and Ramana and Papaji and Nisargadatta. And all of them were great. bhaktas in addition to being Great Yan is they, they, they maintain this sort of ideal relationship with their chosen ideal, the object of their devotion in order to continue to experience the sweetness of that.
Joi Sharp: And the sweetness, I just pray, it never leaves because it is so sweet. It becomes something that has, you know, we’re getting back to that place of value. That value touches our soul, it touches the depths of our being, and it invokes a sense of of beauty and I mean, just, you know, to be able to offer oneself completely. It there’s there’s this abandonment, right of Pretty much everything, what I mean, we’re gonna get, like I said, we’re gonna get tested about that. And so all these great sages, great realized beings, they didn’t want to let go of that it was because it’s so valuable, it’s so sweet. It’s so it’s like a precious gift that God has given, right? I mean, when we really know it in your soul, to be able to let go that deeply, you realize how precious it is. And it’s, again, it’s something that you were going to be able to access when to let go. And like you said, we’re going to talk about that. But to be able to write, I that’s, and to keep finding our increasing capacity to do that, to love that much to have that much value in where we’re what we’re devoting ourselves to. So this is beautiful. And I’m really glad that you brought this point up about all these great Ianis loving love loving that aspect of loving God, I just, that’s
Rick Archer: the way I see it as the heart as a faculty is a component of what we are just as the senses are faculties and the organs of action are faculties and so on. And all of these different faculties tend to blossom, rather than be lost or suppressed or something. So, it would stand to reason I mean, you know, I see awakening or Enlightenment as, as a full blossoming of all the different components and aspects of art are total being right. And so it would stand to reason that it seems to me that if there is a some awakening, which is devoid of devotion, which is dry, and you know, not a lot of heart, that it’s it’s a transitionary stage, it’s not the final thing,
Joi Sharp: right? And we have to be really careful. I mean, I mean, look at it, are we doing this for me? You know, do I want this path for me? Do I want this awakening experience for me? Or do I, you know, that’s, that’s really where we get to see because that’s probably where it’s going to start to dry up. And we could that’s another good point. That’s a whole nother subject about why why is our journey stalling or becoming stagnant or becoming dry? There, there can be a few factors in there. But if we’re looking at it for this for myself, it it can it’s a great place to come from to start on the journey. But when we start to realize that it’s it’s, this is what we’re trying to see through that, you know, to see the see keep seeing through these subtle little places that a little agendas, that that’s what’s going to keep this invigorated, inspired. And that’s, that’s one of the most important things and devotion allows this allows our being to be continually inspired such an important important thing on our journey, right? That inspiration piece because it can, I’ve heard over and over again from people, Well, nothing’s changing and Derrida that’s it and, and it talks about this too. He says, A lot people stop. And why are they stopping. And my one of my first ideas might be because of the night really tapping into a value. Somebody that they value.
Rick Archer: I think that also points to the importance of knowledge. Because if you have a clear understanding of the path, if you have a clear vision of possibilities, then you’re not going to settle for anything less than the highest. If there even is a highest I mean, it may just keep going forever, as far as I know. But, you know, you’re not gonna jump to the conclusion that I’m done and get stuck and knowledge and that’s why it’s useful to you know, hear teachers and read scriptures and different sources of knowledge that you know, perhaps exceed your present level of experience would give you a sense of what others have actually achieved and experience Yeah, so that you might hold out hope for attaining that yourself. Yeah.
Joi Sharp: And inspiration. You know, we have these examples like I’m a Anoma is the probably the most inspiring expression on the planet, as she shows us what we’re capable of. Right. That’s That’s it and and to be able to kind of sense into our being oftentimes I’ll ask people I’ll say, do you see sense that you’re capable of more than you’re experiencing? And 100% of the time, people will say, Yes, I always sense I’m capable of more than what I’m experiencing. And, you know, and so that’s coming from a deeper intelligence, right, that’s coming from a real, real true place. And, and so we have to learn, you know, I think as a teacher, a teacher’s job is to be able to allow the student to find something within themselves. That’s going to keep them going. Right to keep thinking, you know, right. And one of IGES best quotes is, is, you know, questioning what we think we know. And, because we’re our own best way of really seeing if we’re getting in the way of our journey, right? A teacher can say it, but we have a student has to be able to see it for themselves. And so so a teacher’s responsibility really is to question that to give the student an opportunity to see for themselves how they’re kind of maybe sabotaging their their way a little bit not miss necessarily sabotaging, but slowing it down, or even choosing to stop it. You know,
Rick Archer: you may have noticed in Skype, my little tagline is whatever you think it’s more than that. Yeah, it’s from the incredible String Band.
Joi Sharp: Mind, similar mind says go beyond yourself. Yeah. And you’ll find yourself. Yeah.
Rick Archer: To wrap up a point you made a minute ago, before we move on too far. And that was about, you’re talking about surrender, and whether you’re doing this for me, or not, you know, and I think that that links back to the point I made earlier, which is that self realization is really the foundation for a significant development of devotion. And what self realization means by definition, is that your experience of what you are has shifted from a limited me to an unlimited something. And so if the motivation is I’m doing this for me, then perhaps that shift hasn’t taken place.
Joi Sharp: Perhaps it hasn’t. But we get to start to see that it’s not working. And this is, this is a path in itself. You know, I’m doing it for me. And it is it’s a path for itself. And it will, if it if it stays that tight, and that limited without the devotional aspect of openness, which I will say again, and again, it is essential on the journey. If it stays tight, and I want it and I need to get it, and I it will eventually begin to fail. And, and that is it, that’s a very valid path, it’s very valid, because something is getting broken down, and that it’s not getting what it wants. It’s not working. But maybe that path. You know, there’s so many infinite ways the journey kind of expresses itself, but one of the ways that I’ve seen it is maybe that B does get a little glimpse, and immediately gets Oh, I’ve got it right and CO opposite, which a lot of people toxic talk about, but it will stay there, it will stay kind of stuck. And it ceases to lose the inspirational level that the bliss of being able to open and open and open and not need experience. So, you know, me wanting awakening is a valid path. It, it’s okay. Yeah, it’s
Rick Archer: premature to say to people, you know, give up the search, you know, because they haven’t really, I mean, that’ll happen and its own sweet time, but it’s not something you just do abruptly.
Joi Sharp: Right. And a lot and a lot. Exactly. And a lot of times, you know, that journey is just the path to get it for itself is it’s kind of a setup, right? Because we see so much along our way. And as consciousness starts to become more aware of it of the self, the small self, the ego structure, what it wants, what it needs. It, it will if it’s if it’s if it’s set up that way, it will be able to start to see oh, I have been wanting this for my Self. And that alone can be a very, very deep, significant shift of consciousness. So who’s to say that it’s that’s not valid? Right?
Rick Archer: Go ahead, you’re saying something more? Well, and
Joi Sharp: just the the reasons why somebody’s going to want it for itself. I mean, that’s, there’s a lot of reasons why people start on the spiritual path. And it’s important to know that they’re all fine. I mean, they’re to get out of suffering. Because somebody, an ego doesn’t like itself.
Rick Archer: I used to give TM lectures and say, this will help you sleep and lower your blood pressure, you know, good enough reason to start,
Joi Sharp: they didn’t have reason to start. And so, you know, that’s, that’s great. You know, and starting is happening and, and the consciousness is taking wherever the Bing is, wherever the soul is, to start, right where where it is. And that’s, that’s beautiful. That’s perfect. It shouldn’t be any other way than that. Okay.
Rick Archer: So the next, like you were saying, they’re their stages and shifts and tests, and then it’s just this ongoing journey. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. There’s several interesting threads as you brought up, I want to tie them together. And as we go, one is the test thing that I just said. Okay, what were the other? There’s, there’s a surrender thing. And it is, I guess, what they both let’s talk about both of those, the test thing is, I don’t we can talk about who might who or what might be testing us. But there’s the implication that we kind of have to prove our worthiness to that’s generally what a test is, when you graduate from some class in school, Are you worthy to go on to the next class? And so I mean, what would be the ramifications of graduating without being worthy? That’s a question. And is it even possible? I would say that one of the ramifications, I remember a book by Elizabeth haitch, will call the initiation. And it was this memory she had every that this memory had of living in ancient Egypt, this whole thing unfolded to her. And she wanted to sort of move on faster than her teachers were advising, but she was so insistent upon it, that they let her and then she ended up having this fall, which which took her a couple 1000 years to recover from. And finally, she was born as this woman in Switzerland and had this whole memory of the overhaul saga. But there’s a reason why, you know, traditionally, perhaps the highest teachings and highest practices and this and that weren’t just sort of given willy nilly to anybody who came forward there was there was a sense of gradation and, you know, giving people not giving them not letting them bite off more than they could chew kind of thing.
Joi Sharp: Yeah, I could say a lot,
Rick Archer: say a lot. Go ahead.
Joi Sharp: Okay. I write. You know, we have a lot of teaching teachings available right now. And the non dual teaching that you are already that is a very enticing one. And when we have little shifts of consciousness, that validate that teaching, it’s very important. It’s, it’s, you know, these these little validations are essential. But a teaching is in itself, limited. Always. Anything we can put to words is limited. And the devotional path is it will take us very, very, very far beyond words and teachings. And the, the real direct experience of an intimate communion with God with the divine, through our being is the ultimate satisfaction. That’s really what we’re looking for. Right? This is what we’re here for. And the testing that are being goes through, it’s kinda like, what’s the word I’m looking for? It’s, uh, you know, it’s everything’s getting it’s getting tested, it’s it’s getting primed, like a stove, you know, like a backpacking stove. You get it warmed up. So it’s our, our vehicle is our vessel. Well, is worthy, like you said, of being a vessel for the divine of being a vehicle. Be
Rick Archer: capable, capable? Does it? Yeah, fraud if it’s not
Joi Sharp: exactly. And so we’re discovering our capacity within this within this realm of devotion and letting go, Okay, so our being is discovering its capacity as it’s being primed. And so that could be kind of like the testing. And the testing is going to be in this moment, like, we’re going to be in these little crossroads. am I choosing Can I sense? The invitation to let go? Or is the being quite not ready to let go? Which is the capacity right? Being capable? And is it going to instead want to hide behind a teaching, or an experience, or just some idea, or need for security, whatever it might be. So this testing is really discovering the capacity is the being capable of letting go this much right now. And it’s such a beautiful organic way of unfolding. I mean, and we all that have been on the path, we’ve we’ve realized this inner self, that there’s something incredibly organic happening here. Right? And the testing is part of that, and we get to, so that our being starts to recognize its own inherent capacity to let go. It’s our being that starting to realize its own capacity to be a vehicle for the divine. And this is allowing emphasize
Rick Archer: about our terms here. I mean, are being is starting to recognize its capacity to be a vehicle for the divine, you just said, so, you know, what, what do we how do we define our being that which is a vehicle, or we are I think we’re talking about our whole makeup, including our nervous system?
Joi Sharp: I would, yeah, everything, it’s everything, right. And this being that we’ve we’ve known as ourselves our whole life. There’s, there’s something that stayed the same throughout all that. And that’s just our awareness of, of our locality, you know, where we are. And then the being is, you know, everything that it is right now, in this moment, all experiences, all fears. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s the whole package, and we’ll talk about that some more, because our being is capable of undergoing radical transformation through his association with presence. I mean, this is this is really where this is really where my, my interest starts to really show up. And in our being is discovering its own capacity to let go what to what it knows. Right? Previous from previous stuff, because the Enlightened condition, and I really want to share this, from tamas definition, is something that’s always fresh, and always new. And never before. All right. So in this moment, our being has the capacity to move into something that it’s never before experienced. So that’s that’s really what we start to feel right. That’s, that’s, that’s true. And it’s our, our beings, our nervous systems are capable of knowing that all the time, something new, something fresh, something never before, right, and yet
Rick Archer: perhaps something always the same, in addition to always being new and fresh and never before. Yeah, yeah.
Joi Sharp: So there’s that aspect and thank you for that. That’s the clarity, right. It’s moving through our being they can see that it’s, it’s right where it wants to be in this new never before place. And clarity is what we have access to in an increasingly clear way. Okay. We could talk about that too. I know that’s on your
Rick Archer: yes, a couple thoughts here that evokes one is a quote that you wrote down here, from Mama saying Enlightenment is the art of relaxation. And that can be taken superficially, I think of Yes, chill, go to Mexico and just lie on the beach and get more relaxed, I do anything. But what I experienced it to me is that there are, you could say, tight spots in the nervous system, and perhaps its mental counterpart, which have to be relaxed and you don’t relax them all in one sitting or in one day or anything like that. There’s this sort of progressive unwinding of these tight spots and you talk about that and your notes to it. Here you go. You say it actually, when presidents begins to open are being up these knots within our system begin to loosen, as the field of consciousness as presents begins to awaken within us these beliefs within our nervous system. And I think they’re not only beliefs, which has a mental connotation, but they’re Yeah, NERC, really neuro physiological structural things are awakened as well. Back into the field, loosening up the nervous system even more as we empty out of beliefs, fear and fears, our nervous system is transformed, literally changing the way we see everything changing our perceptions of life. And, of course, there’s actually research on this stuff, Rick Hansen and others talk about neuroplasticity. And there have been all sorts of studies with EEG and fMRI and so on showing that, you know, the brains of spiritual practitioners really transform over time, not overnight, but over years, to be completely different functioning entities than they were at the outset.
Joi Sharp: Beautiful, yeah. Okay, right up our alley here. And I appreciate ya the neurological knots that happen. And we all know what that feels like, in our being when we’re experiencing a situation that’s scary, we feel a contraction. Wherever we
Rick Archer: go, also, those knots are not just sort of something felt in the moment. But let’s say you almost get hit by a car or something like that. And it creates this shock to the system. And you know, for years, for us of your life, you may be really skittish around intersections or something because the impression that was made, I mean, there are people who are afraid of dogs, they’re all the soldiers coming back from from, you know, Iraq and Iran or Iraq and Afghanistan with PTSD that the nervous system sort of gets imprinted by by these stressful impressions. And that gunks up the works, you know, and yeah, those need to be unwound.
Joi Sharp: Yeah, yep. And we’re carrying those through from who, you know, who knows how long we’ve been carrying those knots through? Yeah. And so we all know, you know, for those of us that have been a practitioner for a long time, and when we’re sitting in meditation, and as we’re dropping down, you can feel something in your nervous system sort of relinquish? Like, it’s just like a relinquishing and, you know, our being is starting to realize, oh, it can let go, yeah. Oh, it can let go. And that that realization, and, you know, the nervous system is discovering its own capacity, to to let go to be opened, as it’s being touched by presence, because that’s where we’re sitting as we’re sitting in, in meditation. We’re allowing something to take place, right? We’re getting out of the way. If we sit in meditation, and we’re trying to have something, experience something, it’s never going to work. It requires this relinquishing of control. Right.
Rick Archer: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, because the, the transformation that we’re talking about here is far too complex for the individual will to orchestrate, it would be like trying to orchestrate your digestion, you know, it’s better to just leave it to nature. And to just sort of, you know, I mean, if you if you eat a big heavy meal, and then start running a marathon, that’s not good timing, because you’re interfering with digestion by your actions. So you have to set up the conditions to allow nature to do its thing, which in this case, might be meditation or spiritual practice. But once you’ve done so, you don’t interfere and it’ll take, it’ll take care of itself.
Joi Sharp: Yeah, yeah. And so this is where that devotional aspect is going to really show up for us, too, is getting out of the way enough, and allowing something to happen that our mind doesn’t know. Right? We, we we can’t understand on any kind of level of what’s happening. But we can sense it through our being and this beautiful, beautiful sensing, Oregon, that can see that sense, his presence that senses the divine. You know, that’s how we know we’re sitting in presence is because we sense it within ourself. It’s not something that’s happening outside of ourselves. We recognize presence. through this sensing mechanism, through the presence that’s within it, right? That’s, so it’s using the field consciousness, or presence, whatever you want to term you want to use here is using the nervous system deeply. Not only to know itself, but actually to open the Bing up more. Right? Yeah. And this is going to calm it feels good to the nervous system. Yeah. It’s like, it’s like the most healing thing that can happen to it. Right? You know, I mean, this is, this is what real peace is. It’s when our being knows that it’s being completely molded and taken care of, and transformed and shaped in a way that it can’t understand yet. Always before or never before always knew, right? And letting it letting it come in, in a way that are being started to recognize that this is what it’s made for. This is why it can no presents. So just for this, yeah,
Rick Archer: there’s an interesting thing here, which is the sort of the Mind Body correlation, how that they’re interrelated and connected and influence one another. And I’ve had experiences where I’m sitting in meditation and all sudden, my body will just convulse. You know, if someone were watching me, they’d see me just sort of jump or something. And then there’s this huge sort of relaxation. Batching that takes place. Yeah. From playing too much. Pickleball I mean, yeah, these days, I see Pickleball is flying at me, Well, I’m very intense game. But, um, you have an interesting section in your book, where you talked about while you’re sitting in almost presence in her ashram, and you’re going through all this stuff, you know, all these careers and, and, you know, fast breathing, and then you know, you’re sweating and, and then you finally come out of it and open your eyes, and everybody’s staring at you, you know, but, but there’s been some kind of physiologic Tarsus taking place.
Joi Sharp: Yeah, and sometimes, you know, sometimes presence is going to get very energetic, it really is, it’s gonna, it’s gonna really start to fire things up. And this is to inspire the system. And I, you know, who knows why, you know, maybe it really did need to burn some things out, because I also remember sitting in the ashram just being in this incredibly uncomfortable place of burning and kind of an angst, you know, so, you know, but who knows what really is happening within our nervous system? Those days? That’s what it did. Right? It doesn’t do that anymore. Yeah, yeah, it doesn’t need to, but it’s still feel I can still feel in our, in my system, when I sit and I sit every day, when it kind of bumps up against something. And that’s what happens when we become more sensitive, right? It, it’s like the field is bumping up against something. And it’s almost like it’s talking to the being talking to the nervous system. Because this is a, you know, this is divine intelligence. And, and how it and it’s not necessarily especially when we’re sitting in meditation, we’re really not focusing on what the being is experiencing, although thoughts might show up in the form of situations and stories or whatever. But oftentimes, we’re just being and we’re allowing the field to come in and kind of have its way with us, right. And, and as it’s bumping up against something, it’s good to be more of a felt sense. And that’s all it is. We don’t even know what that felt sense needs to be about. We it’s not necessary. But it gets it’s this is really interesting. It almost starts to feel like presence is like tinkering. And I have felt it in my brain a lot. And I want to share something I heard I should talk about this recently, just for the littlest minute, and it was almost like he didn’t quite want to go there. But I caught it. And you know, we have this brain. Yeah. And it’s not being used a lot. It’s, it’s a very, very small percentage of it is being utilized and so Can we allow presidents to come in the field to come in and start tinkering? Right? Let it do what it wants. It knows how to work in there. And so this is something that being starts to recognize to and it’s like, okay, yeah, I’m on board. I’m in total cooperation with what’s happening, whatever that might look like.
Rick Archer: Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, we’re talking, and we’ve alluded to this already, but we’re talking about actual physiological transformation. And there’s been research on this with fMRI and stuff, showing that, you know, long term meditators have rather different brains in terms of the way they function. And probably many people listening to this, you and I both have, have sat in meditation and felt stuff changing in the brain and not that the brain has any sensory ability, they say that you can, you know, in brain surgery, they don’t have to invest anesthetize the brain, because it doesn’t feel the way your arm would. But you can feel stuff shifting and popping and moving and relaxing and, you know, tingles of energy and, and all kinds of stuff going on in the physiology.
Joi Sharp: Yeah, yeah. And, yeah, yeah. Because the biggest the deepest evolution is going to be through being right. It is going to be through the embodied being, which is the field within the being, right, the what’s moving the being, because that is going to be able to know itself. more intimately. More into that, I like that word. I like that word. Yeah. Closer. Yeah. And because there’s nothing going to be right it really in the way that it’s having to work through. And, and this has to kind of go along with this, what I talked about with clarity, the word, the term is
Rick Archer: clarity, this little section from your notes here, this is what clarity is looking for, so that all parts of our being can be integrated, made conscious, honesty, leading to clarity, clarity is that dynamic aspect of presence, the aspect that season heals with grace? So clarity, yeah, I mean, we want the this instrument to be a clear vessel for the expression and manifestation of the Divine, we don’t want it to be muddied up with an opaque, which is the opposite of clarity.
Joi Sharp: Yeah. So I’ve been liking this term a lot lately. You know, we can use terms like awareness or presence. But awareness is something that’s it is simply aware, I’m aware that I’m having this experience. awareness can be aware of itself. Clarity kind of evokes more of a, an attribute of that which sees which which can really be activated really be. What’s the word I’m looking for accessed within our being? Okay. And everybody has access to clarity. And, you know, everybody I sit with people and I, people convinced are trying to convince me that they don’t have it, but they’re, you know, I can see that it’s, it’s happening within them. And clarity is something that that’s able to, to recognize simply what’s going on in the being. When Claire, did
Rick Archer: you agree that there are degrees of clarity and it’s something that gets cultured over time and becomes more and more clear?
Joi Sharp: Absolutely. Absolutely. So clarity is, is is something that’s big, is also evolving, you could say, as it’s being used as being utilized, being accessed, like using a muscle and just we’ve talked about this before, I think the clarity has another component to it. Okay, and because clarity is that which has not only the capacity to see, and to be aware, it also has the capacity to relinquish to us the being to know itself. It has capacities inherent within it. And one of its most important essential capacity is grace. What’s called Grace, right? And that’s this capacity for transformation, for deep seated. Change, okay, Grace isn’t something that like allows us necessarily just to awaken. Grace is also something that shifts what’s not conscious within our being, as let’s say, We’re bumping up against something that maybe is afraid for no reason, okay. And as we start to become curious about that place that we feel within our nervous system, because that’s where how we’re going to know it’s there, because we’re going to feel it within our nervous system, as in not, right, like we talked about it, we’re first we’re going to start out by being aware of it. And then if clarity is strong enough, and as it’s getting stronger, we’re going to be able to see it, not only objectively but without judgment. Right? This is also something that’s extremely important and not dismiss it, not avoid it clarity does not dismiss or avoid ever. Clarity is the field with a capacity inherent within it. Clarity also has the capacity to enter into that which it sees. Clarity, okay, and it has also because it doesn’t see with judgment, it has this capacity within it, to integrate, to bring home to include that which doesn’t know its God, those parts of our being All right,
Rick Archer: yeah. As you say this as he talked about clarity, for some reason, the guna model came to mind you know, sattwa, rajas, and tamas. And those qualities are often defined with reference to clarity, tamas being very obscuring and dark and, and opposed to clarity, and rajas. To in its own way, excitement, passion, you know, turbulence and so on, that obscures clarity. And they say that rajas destroys tamas, and sattwa destroys rajas. So there could, in some cases, be a progression through those predominance of those Gunas and a person’s makeup as they go along. But sattwa is associated with clarity. And there’s also that verse in the Bible of seeing through a glass darkly, but later on seeing clearly, you know, through a clear glass, yeah. So there’s, there’s a sort of component of purification of one’s nervous system and one’s being so as to have it be a clear vessel. I think that relates to what you’re saying here.
Joi Sharp: Yeah, I mean, the, it’s good to start to become the clearer we are we’re using clarity, you didn’t say that, right. But this the more clarity is realized, as self, right? We’re going to start to be able to use it, we’re going to because we were now identified with what sees, right, we’re going to start to realize our own capacity for clarity. Okay, we’re gonna start to step into that. And this is this is when things get really kind of fun. This is when things get really interesting, right? Because when things arising in our arise within our being within the nervous system, we’re not going to be like, Okay, I gotta sit with us, I got to deal with this. We’re going to want to see it with our clarity, right then and there. Right then in there. There’s no like trying to work with it. And this is what we’re discovering within our being is how to how to use our clarity. Right and to and to be that and in not only just being able to see, but being able to go in and heal. Integrate all parts of our being. And this happens can start to happen, increasing with increasingly more efficiency. It doesn’t have to take all day or an hour it can happen quite quickly. Yeah, that’s a really good point. And, and this, this grace that’s inherent within our clarity. It’s that place that doesn’t, the mind doesn’t really understand. It’s that component of ego, I always kind of see it as something alchemical, right? But if we can imagine, you know, the form and the formless, right? The formless being the clarity and the form being our being our nervous system, all that form was wants to do is go into the form and in form it of what’s true, right. And that’s all it’s doing. And it does it by touching it, by encountering it, by entering into it in this very, very kind nonjudging, compassionate, you could even say way, because those places within our being that don’t know that their God too. It’s there separate. That’s, that’s not a very ideal way to live, it’s not a very nice way to feel to feel separate and not connected. But the minute that clarity goes in and starts to touch it, that integration process has already begun. It’s already starting to bring those aspects of our being home. So that separation is just literally coming back into the sea, right, the salt doll into the sea. That kind of that’s the feeling it doesn’t. You know, it’s not a thing, those parts of our being that feel separate, it’s not a thing, like you said, it’s these neurological knots. There are functions within the nervous system that have been necessary to protect themselves to be somebody in the relative world. Yeah, created,
Rick Archer: they have their counterparts, I think in the subtle body. It’s not just something Yes, they do MRI or under a microscope or something that, and we do have have enough, everybody buys this idea. But we do have subtle bodies, as well as gross and all of creation has a subtle realm, which is not material and which is actually inhabited by subtle beings. But anyway, we as human beings, traverse the whole range from gross to subtle, transcendent, and, and clarity as I think you’re describing it would want to continue to house clean on all those levels, until there is no occlusion
Joi Sharp: anymore. Right. Right. And, and the subtle bodies, they’re going to show up within the nervous system when their time Yeah, and this is how the Bing can recognize that that’s there.
Rick Archer: Because I replied, even if we’re not aware of them. Yeah. And it’s,
Joi Sharp: you know, it’s, it’s not necessary, that we know that we’re purifying them all the time. That’s why this openness is so essential, continually on the path, it doesn’t matter how realized or how integrated or whatever word you aren’t want to use, all those words start being really irrelevant, actually, you know, when we’re when we’re being being shaped. This is what’s happening now. That the openness aspect, and the devotion to it is really kicking in now. are being no like
Rick Archer: for people or for for
Joi Sharp: for everybody, this is where this I mean, this is where what I’m talking about on the journey can be experienced no matter where we are, okay, working on the level, the nervous system. But the deeper we go, that devotional aspect is, is going to be tested deeper and deeper and deeper, right, isn’t it? It’s going to be called forth. Until the Bing really knows that. It didn’t, it doesn’t want to hang out in my life anymore. It only wants to be a vehicle for the divine. It only wants to be shaped and made into that to be worthy of service, whatever that might look like, by the way, you know. Yeah.
Rick Archer: bring up a point that we kind of, we’re both sitting here with pictures of Arma behind us. And we both get to see them. And there’s a kind of a common sentiment these days in the spiritual community that the guru phase has ended. And Scott killaby just posted a video about that a lot. And a lot of people say that, you know, that that’s kind of an antiquated mode of teaching or something, and, and that it’s no longer relevant. And, and so I think that some people who say this are trying to function as teachers, and that’s what a guru is. So I’m not sure not sure if there might be some inconsistency there. But what would you have to say to someone who presented you with that objection?
Joi Sharp: Well, depends on the person, situation. You know, everybody has their way. But you know, here in the West, people have a kind of idea that there’s a very individualistic energy in the West. Whereas you go to India, and it’s very tribal. There’s there, it’s, it’s the support system is extremely valued, there. And here, you know, you’ve got a lot of isolation, you’re got your family over there, you got your family over there, you got your family over there, I’ve got my kids, you’ve got your kids, and everybody takes care of their own. For me, I can only really talk about my own experience. I don’t know what really another person needs, except when I really encountered them. And I can hear their ideas and their beliefs about teachers and gurus and there are a lot of those, by the way, and I see them all over the place. For me, my relationship with ALMA has been also in a process of evolution over the years as it should be, it started out a certain way. And it’s, it’s continually evolving. But through it all, it’s been a support system. That’s, that’s mainly what a teacher is, is it’s a support system. And a teacher isn’t here to teach you anything, or to tell you anything, like what to do and how to do it. And I think a lot of Westerners think in their minds that that’s what a teacher does, is somebody that’s here to tell you what to do, and to teach you things. Were when I grew up with ARMA, I didn’t have any teachings, I had no teachings at all. And so when I was undergoing this process, I had no idea what was going on. But I had openness, that’s the one thing that I had going on for me. And that was very valuable. And I mean, it wasn’t until later that I really sat with Ida that I my formal teaching. period started and that was that was so perfect. But getting back to kind of aamas role in in my journey is the support system. And also in the support system, which we need. It will change over time, what a support system is going to look like. But the support system allows us to start to see and access, access our own clarity. This is what a teacher or a guru does, they’re they’re here to so we can access our own clarity. They don’t want us to be dependent upon them. That’s what a real teacher does. If there’s a teacher that that isn’t wanting to ask you to access your own clarity, that’s not going to be very satisfying for you as a student. Right. And Alma has continually like kind of like pushed me back into myself almost like find out for yourself. She never gave me a teaching that I could hide behind or hold on to or believe in. And even my early years when I just wanted to be with Obama and be included in the group that traveled with her I mean I you know, we go through this I just I wanted my being the separate self wanted to kind of like have a place to land in Alma. But Ahmed never gave me a place to land. She continually pull took away things to land on. And this is of course you know this this says the true definition of Guru, which means to remove, right? To remove, to take away, continually removing places that the separate self is trying to land on.
Rick Archer: comes from two Sanskrit words, roots that mean darkness and light. So, you know, the guru is sort of removing darkness by adding the second element of light.
Joi Sharp: Okay, good to know. Well, my experience was she just kept taking away that’s all I knew. But but in you know, and this is, this is interesting because it by taking away, right, we access our own light. Like it’s all
Rick Archer: filters off a light that’s keeping the room darkness because there’s stuff there in the way.
Joi Sharp: Yeah, yeah. So we’re almost being forced into it, and the dependency is not there. And, you know, and I went to Ahmed, many years ago, many years ago, and I, I asked her about my attachment to her form. Because at one point, I was very attached to her, I always wanted to be with her. And, but yet, I wanted truth. More. And so I went to her, and I asked her about it, and she said, it’s a vehicle, it’s a support system, the form is nothing but that it gives you some sort of anchor, while really literally the rest of your world is being taken away, which is not an easy process to undergo, right, but you have something supporting you in that. But it’s not something that the ego can hold on to. It’s something that the beam can hold on to.
Rick Archer: Right, yeah. That makes sense. Yeah, it does.
Joi Sharp: Yeah. You know, and that’s a big broad conversation, you know, maybe have some more questions about that about the role of teachers and why so many people are kind of?
Rick Archer: Well, I, there’s one thing is that, you know, there have been so many weird stories about things happening with teachers, and we get feedback from time to time about, you know, people we’ve interviewed this that the other person who is doing things that we find troubling, and, you know, so some people have kind of given the whole field a bad name. And, you know, I think that’s part of the reason why some people are saying, let’s get rid of that whole model. It’s not working,
Joi Sharp: you know, right. And I can only say to those people that I would look and see where there’s, that’s coming from, I mean, where we’re going is, is into a the autonomous condition, right, that we’re completely self reliant. But yet, I also know, I’m a, she’s going to be with me, be with me for as long as I acknowledge that she’s here. And, but and it’s still a support system, it’s still a means of inspiration. Because she’s saying, You can do this to be you can be a very capable being. You know, I,
Rick Archer: you will, like, yeah, let me just jump in there. I mean, I think any guru worth her salt, or his salt, is they don’t want dependency. I mean, maybe there’s a stage at which it’s useful to sort of, for the kitten to be with the mother and whatever. Yeah, good, good metaphor. Actually, if you’ve ever raised cats, and you see, there’s a certain stage at which the kitten, the mother is very protective of the kittens and close with the kitten, and then reach a certain age and the mother starts hissing at them. And it’s like, shocking to see because you love these little kittens, and you love the cat. But the mother saying, Nope, time to be on your own. And, you know, so ultimately, no guru worth their salt wants to have dependents around them, you know, a eternally there’s got to be a shift to self sufficiency.
Joi Sharp: Yeah, I mean, and because that what’s true in us, you know, which is the clarity, doesn’t want dependency clarity only wants more clarity. And that’s also going to, it also means taking place in, in its in the students, right, that’s, and people often say that I feel like kind of like a tuning fork when I work with them, that that field that I’m sharing with the student, or with the friend, it’s setting itself up, it’s like it’s it’s kind of resonating with what we’re speaking about. And that’s what I feel when I’m with Shama is that field that we’re sharing is is like talking, communicating with each other. And, and that’s the same when I work with people Well, that’s what I feel is happening is that the field is working with itself within the student within the teacher. And it doesn’t necessarily mean what we’re talking about. But it’s the clarity through which that student is being able to start to access for themselves. And that is what gives me satisfaction. That, that, that that’s what’s happening for them. Dependents, no, you know, that’s, that’s not going to work here. Ever.
Rick Archer: metaphor is a good one, because you know, how you can, you can strike a tuning fork and then bring another one near it, and that second tuning fork will start to resonate, because right resonance of the first one, and, and this whole thing of transmission, you know, from a teacher, my understanding experience is not that some energy is being sort of sent like a ball of light to from point A to point B, but there’s a sort of a, an attunement of the fields of the field, so that your frequency and the frequency of the teacher, your frequency begins to align more closely with the frequency of the teacher. And, and, and just one final point, and one more metaphor is I’ve heard Ahmed use the example of a brightly burning log. And if you put in another log near it, that’s not burning, that that log will start to burn. So I don’t know, those are all good metaphors, but it has nothing to none of those examples have anything to do with dependency, or telling people how to live their lives or, or anything like that. It’s really just a matter of, you know, affinity and resonance and getting onto a better wavelength by virtue of proximity to someone who is on a good one.
Joi Sharp: Yeah. And if you know, if you really want the truth, your you know, your, your level of discernment is going to, you know, you’re going to need to start using it for sure. And you’re going to start recognizing people that inspire you. And you’re going to want to hang around with people that inspire you. And there’s knows when something’s off. Yeah, and you’re gonna recognize when something’s off. And I’ve noticed that there’s a lot of very clear people out there. And they’re not necessarily teachers, but the level of of integrity is, is very obvious. It and that’s, those are, those are the beings that are being called forth. It doesn’t, you know, if people are wearing the hat of a teacher, but they don’t have that level of integrity, and that ego structure still needs a place to land and being a teacher is a really great one. Right? Ego structure that has found the teaching Place to Land is not likely to give that went up. Because that’s, it’s a really good one.
Rick Archer: I mean, if you go motivated, assumption of that role is you’re you’re saying,
Joi Sharp: yeah, yeah. And
Rick Archer: then it goes to their heads and things get really weird. Yeah.
Joi Sharp: Yeah, it becomes extremely protected, and needed to be maintained. Where as a real teacher, and I, you know, I even told you, I have I struggle with that term. I don’t see myself as a teacher, I see. Because I don’t teach necessarily, I talk. And I, it looks like I’m kind of teaching, but it’s the field that I’m feeling. And I can, I can feel when a student is open, and when they’re not. Sure. That’s it. And when a teacher, when a student is open, it feels like it feels like clarity kind of pouring itself into another it, it just there’s, there’s a an ease of access, you might say. And if there, if it’s not close, there’s not any ease.
Rick Archer: You know, marshy had a good analogy for this, he said that a teacher, a true teacher is like a reservoir. And the reservoir doesn’t really do anything, but it’s up to the student to sort of bring a pipe up to it. And according to the circumference of the pipe, will be the, you know, the the force of the flow of water, if it’s really big pipe, a lot of water can flow, but it’s really up to the student to bring up an adequate
Joi Sharp: pipe. Right. And that’s honestly, it’s the same thing. And, you know, and that goes along with with being open, right? Yeah. And it says, It’s not up to the teacher, it’s up to the student to be receptive period. She didn’t, you know, deviate in any sort of way. It’s if you don’t have receptivity, and you only have your own ideas, then it’s going to be kind of difficult for a teacher to get in there. But maybe given time, says those ideas aren’t going to work for that student and then they’ll say, Okay, this isn’t working. Right and some level of kinda receptivity born from humility will start to happen.
Rick Archer: I think your use of the word discernment is apt, I think that whether you have a teacher or not whatever teacher you may or may not have, it’s important to do whatever you can to culture discernment, and never to relinquish that. And it’s just an extremely valuable quality on the path for anybody. And I don’t think any really legitimate teacher would discourage that. But on the contrary, they would encourage it,
Joi Sharp: right, the legitimate ones, because it’s, I mean, I remember when I lived in Sedona in the 80s, and it was small then, but there was still a lot of new age kind of stuff going on. I mean, it was everywhere, really. And, and that’s, and I could feel the discernment kick in. And it was, it was a lot of nose. It was way, way, way, way more nose than Yes. And I could see the people that were really working on themselves. And that was when I started hooking up with those the disciples of Paramahansa Yogananda. And, you know, that was way back and in the mid 80s. And yet discernment was starting to kick in like, this is what this being needs. Right. And so it’s not about what everybody else is doing. You got to tap into your own self. And that that’s very important that we’re not following the sheep. Because what your being needs is never ever, ever going to look like everybody else’s. It’s always going to be different. And it’s going to keep going into places where nobody else is going, especially later.
Rick Archer: I just saw a funny cartoon yesterday, it was a bunch of I think it was a Gary Larson cartoon who did the far side, it was a bunch of sheep standing around at a cocktail party and one sheep was saying the other, this party is a disaster. Nobody knows where to stand. Nobody knows what to do it. And then you see in the background, this, this border collie at the door, and the other sheet says, Oh, thank God, a border collie will get us organized.
Joi Sharp: Right. And there’s the dependence, right? There it is, it’s showing up, you’re a sheep, you’re going to be dependent. And and that would be you know why? We can’t call the dependent sheep faulty and until they realize that they’re they haven’t learned to stand up for themselves, they haven’t learned to access through unclarity. They’re still relying on the teacher to tell them how to do it. They’re still relying on maybe they’re a teaching how to do it, or even they’re still relying on an experience that they’ve had in the past on how to do it. Right. And why I say this is going to take us continually into places we’ve never been before is because it does. And that’s that level of autonomy. That is extremely hard one. This isn’t easy to keep using your own level of discernment on what you need. Right? Because it’s gonna take you beyond the sheep way, way, way beyond the sheep.
Rick Archer: Would you say that discernment is like a muscle which you can get strengthened through use? And if so, what kind of exercises and I use this term somewhat metaphorically, would you recommend for strengthening it?
Joi Sharp: Well, hopefully we’re being we’re being able to access that in the beginning of our journey rather than like, after we’ve you know, maybe got kind of stuck into kind of a sheep mentality or being brainwashed by teachings, which this is this is really important. People get brainwashed by teachings and they’re not using discernment and you know, the separate self will try to find places to land. Okay. And discernment is something that is is is on a level of intuition, which is a different place than what the separate self is operating from. Okay, so we want to access those that deeper knowing that’s what we’re here to do. And that deeper knowing is what we need right now versus what we think we need, or what we want to need what’s going to give us a place of security and feeling safe. Discernment often brings us into a place that doesn’t feel safe. But it’s also a deep knowing that this is what I need, I do need to let this go, I do need to stop following the pack, and do what everybody else is doing. Discernment is also like, what am I growing? Am I changing? Right? Because that would be a way to access discernment. Or you could even call discernment, kind of in a lot of honesty. That, you know, on that, that, am I really trying to feel safe in community and Sangha in teachings? Or am I ready to start to access this deeper place in myself? That says, This is what I need? This is what I need? This is what I need. That’s very important. Did that answer your question?
Rick Archer: It kind of did. And while you’re answering it, I had a couple of thoughts. One was, I thought of this quote from the Buddha, which I just looked up, as you were speaking, he said, believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, and agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. And I like that one. And, and also, kind of something I do is, I give everybody the benefit of the doubt. But at the same time I take everything with a grain of salt. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, I
Joi Sharp: see that I see that in you.
Rick Archer: Paradoxical if somebody says that bees come from Venus or something? I’ll think all right, maybe, you know? Or if, but I don’t know, that’s something that another way of putting it is, to me everything is, is a scientific hypothesis, every claim that every religion has ever made or anything else is something that could potentially be investigated, if we have the means to do so. And which doesn’t mean that I doubt everything is just an obviously with hypotheses. In science, there are some which have a lot more credibility than others, and have been verified to a much greater extent than others. And so that’s true. In my own experience, too. I mean, at some certain things that I am 99% Sure, is our true, but there’s always that 1% of who knows, maybe something will change, you know, but that way, if you have that kind of attitude, at least that works for me, then you’re not kind of rigid, you’re not cleaning, you know, take things on blind faith, you’re, you kind of stay open, you know, yeah. And I find that
Joi Sharp: there’s that there’s that word again, there’s that word again, open? And, you know, and or it’s, it’s also that that way of you don’t know until you do, right. I mean, really know. And, and that’s the beautiful thing about not having a teaching, but yet have a very, very strong impulse to know. For sure for yourself. Right. And that’s, I was fortunate to have that. And that was I was very driven at an early age, but yet the impulse, right, again, it’s it allowed me to access my own discernment. My own is like an inner GPS, which is going into a place that is about our own evolution. And, and it’s really left behind left behind most teachings. But yet, when there is a direct encounter of self use, like you know it. And that’s that self validation piece, right? Let it be your own experience. Because if it’s a teaching, and you’re believing it, the tendency is to make it like you said, rigid and dogmatic. Yeah. And that’s happening a lot these days. Sure. And people are like, frothing at the mouse to defending their belief in their teachings. And it’s when you have your own experience. You don’t need to defend anything. No,
Rick Archer: no, so many wars fought over that attitude and people drive cars into crowds over that attitude and, and there are all these political fights and so on and so forth. Where if people could just sort of release the grip a little bit, but not more. not be so cocksure of one’s own rightness and certain certainty.
Joi Sharp: But that’s such a great example of that separate self finding a place to land. And it’s a security. It’s a false security.
Rick Archer: Exactly. That’s the perfect word. It’s like, it’s like holding on for dear life, because you want certainty. You want some kind of absolute value in life, not having access to something, which is actually actually absolute. You, you try your darndest to make something relative absolute. Yes,
Joi Sharp: yes. Yeah. And that’s, that is not that’s false. That’s false. It’s, it’s such a false sense of security, but it feels so real to that, which is looking for it. It feels very
Rick Archer: solid. But it’s always tenuous, you’re always on shaky ground. And this,
Joi Sharp: and this is exactly where we are, we’re on shaky ground. And one of the things I shared with you that happened last year with him, I shared with you that you know, for two weeks, I sat in her presence in this state of absolute not knowing I couldn’t find anything to know if my heart depended upon it. And I all I knew was this clarity, right, clarity, and not knowing when you really have an absolute sense of not knowing it does feel shaky, it’s extremely vulnerable. I mean, because you’re really letting go of any place that that that separate self might look to land.
Rick Archer: I mean, just showed me a note saying driving the car cars into people is mental illness, psycho psychopathic, and that’s true, but it’s it’s a mental illness, which is characterized in part by hubris, to an extreme degree by a certainty that I am right. And I am going to do this, you know, for all our for whatever, and, and, you know, it’s an extreme, you know, profound degree, sickly, profound degree of this tendency, which I think we all have, to some extent and what you know, of course, talking about rooting out, there was a beautiful little saying, I don’t know if it came from Ramana, or Papaji, or one of these people. He said, It’s freefall forever. That’s, but the good news is there’s no ground, you know, so you’re not gonna go splat.
Joi Sharp: You know, when or the, you know, I saw somebody asked a couple days ago, what’s your favorite teachings from Jesus? You know, and here we are in Christmas. And, and so that was a question and mine is, the Son of Man has no place to rest his head
Rick Archer: where the foxes have their dens in the birds have their nests, but the Son of Man, man has no place to rest, which is exactly the point I think we’re making here.
Joi Sharp: Exactly, exactly. And, and this is where everything is known. Everything that we can find to rest our head upon, has is getting taken away. And what is left is this glorious self validating self, and, and not having a place to rest our head. I mean, that’s, that’s the freedom that really allows the field to have 100% access.
Rick Archer: Right? And paradoxically, that’s security.
Joi Sharp: Yes, exactly. You got it. Exactly. And that’s it. And there is I think there’s a point in all of our journeys, where we start to see oh, this is the only thing I can I have to rely on. And it is a grace when we start to experience that all these things that we thought we needed are not are totally tenuous, they’re they’re ephemeral. They’re not real. They’ll they’ll leave it’ll go away at some point. Yeah, a
Rick Archer: couple of questions came in might cause us to shift gears let’s see what they are. This is from a fella named David in Grass Valley California. He asks, do you feel in relation to clarity and form that there is a third term of reference a field within which the to interact clarity and form? Or are there just clarity and form?
Joi Sharp: Well, I think the form has like what we were talking about those subtle beings, those subtle levels, subtle realms of being, which, which is form, okay, because form is anything that’s created, so formed would be emotion, and thought, and feeling and then the very, very gross levels of our blood and our bone and our whatever. Okay? The formulas is that which encounters right that’s that’s with what’s happening. What is clarity is getting to encounter form on all those different levels. Right? But we must also sense that both the form and the formless are the same field. And you could feel that within your being that aliveness within your body,
Rick Archer: you know that Buddha’s saying Form is emptiness, emptiness is form.
Joi Sharp: Yes, yeah, yeah. So this is what we’re talking about. So clarity doesn’t see form as something that’s not part of the same field. Okay. Clarity is what is seeing from field, it’s that that attribute, you could say, although that’s not really an attribute is just what the field is doing. So the field or clarity sees form, no matter where it is, in its evolution as that same field, right, it’s all the same field. So there is not two, and this is the the very precise definition of non duality is not to. And so coming from clarity, it sees form as itself, it never sees it as separate, even though aspects of form experience itself as separate. So that would be the integration. That’s all that’s what integration is. It’s just bringing it all back in. So it’s conscious of itself. Because even those aspects of separation have a conscious feel to them, don’t they? Right, just the thought I nee as it has a conscious feel to it. It’s just not a clear conscious field. Okay, so that integration is bringing that that sameness all throughout its being. Thanks for the question, David. Sure.
Rick Archer: And in case anybody’s wondering how David submitted that question. There’s on batgap.com, under upcoming interviews, there’s a there’s a question form at the bottom of that page. And if you submit a question there during an interview, we will probably ask it to the guest. And so if you want to do that now, anybody else you’re welcome to. And here’s another question. This is from another day, but this one happens to be in Halifax, Nova Scotia, David’s asking, what is your growing edge in the unfolding as a yogi and as a teacher?
Joi Sharp: My growing edge? Yeah,
Rick Archer: I guess, and I go ahead.
Joi Sharp: What can I ask for a little clarification, what a growing edge is? Well, it might take
Rick Archer: him a while to get back to us with the clarification. But I’ll try to clarify because I think I know it. Okay. This is a question that I often ask people towards, usually towards the end of interviews. You know, like, where do you see it going from here? Usually, there’s some sense of Horizon in terms of, you know, where one’s development seems to be moving. And maybe it’s unpredictable to a great extent, but um, you know, like, you know, 50 years ago, when I, or nearly 50 years ago, when I learned to meditate, I had some kind of concept of where I might be 50 years from now. Or even five years from now.
Joi Sharp: I remember I remember those back then. I don’t really have them anymore. But I there is a sense. Yeah. And that’s okay. So I get what you mean, no, I don’t have ideas about past this moment. I have no idea. So much. Well, it my being only knows to open up to this, that’s here, right? That’s all it can do. So it can’t really formulate projections into where this might be going. And I’ll be really honest with you, I don’t feel comfortable limiting it in any way. I don’t feel comfortable in trying to put it into a box of maybe, you know, put it in labeling it teacher. I don’t feel comfortable putting it in a box and setting up a lot of things, events, happenings, whatever it is. Because I resonate more deeply with what’s possible for us. This this deep sense of potential that my being my brain, my nervous system, are being our debate. What is possible for us as integrated being how can we move In this world be of service. And that’s all I know, there’s an extremely strong longing that kind of really kicked in a couple of years ago. And that came from being is like be I just want to serve. And to that I can only I can only open to what’s here. And this, this is deciding. And I, my mind can’t come up with anything, because all of that is limiting to my being. To put it in a box of any kind, I can’t
Rick Archer: Yeah. Well, I think to make it a little easier for you, I would suggest that although we can’t predict specifics, you know, this might happen, that might happen, I might be playing this precise role. We can perhaps, say more general things such as well, that I hope or even like not certainties, but I hope to be more to have greater capacity for love or greater wisdom or, you know, greater clarity or, you know, things like that, which kind of lets God off the hook in terms of wow. And he
Joi Sharp: and I think that’s, that’s kind of a given. Yeah, that’s what I that’s been
Rick Archer: so far, God willing, it will continue to be the trend, that kind of thing.
Joi Sharp: Yeah. And that’s, I mean, that’s it. That’s a good question. But you know, I might not look so kind and loving. Yeah. And it Benteke being, right. I don’t know, I remember when I first lived with Dama. She didn’t look so kind and loving all the time. But you know, but it is it has a feeling the impulse that’s happening within being to this is for peace. This is, you know, May or May all beings be happy. I don’t know what that looks like. But I can sense in my Being that this is for the good of all. And I’ve I’ve had an awareness in my Bing for decades. That what, it was really beautiful. I was sitting in tears of anomaly and Romanism meditation hall, having all these three, four hour long meditations. And somebody one day came up to me, and she was a sweet lady. And she said, just remember, these flowers aren’t for you. And it was like an angel came, you know, she just said that I might have said this to you before. But ever since then. i This This isn’t for me, this is this is for the whole, this is for this field that’s that knows how to perhaps bring about peace. Right? I my mind doesn’t know. But there is a deep longing to be used for that. And deep healing, that it’s time for humanity to experience great healing. A lot. It’s getting exposed right now. Yeah, there’s exposure happening on so many levels. Right? Really, you can really feel it, that seems to be a thing of the times. And, and aligning ourselves with what, what really our soul values? Really, I mean, this is this is important. And I’ve just been talking about this beautifully. You know what, it was an important time to talk about this? Where are we going as a collective? Right as fellow travelers? Here we are. Can we support each other in this and that’s what I intuit that this is moving into. And maybe some of these people that are interpreting it as you don’t need a teacher. That’s what they’re feeling. I don’t maybe it’s it’s an interpretation of the sense within their being, that we are moving into much more collective and to be able to read to recognize, oh, this is happening over here, and it’s happening over here. And it might not be happening much in my neighborhood. But it is taking place. Yeah. I don’t know if I got off track there. I
Rick Archer: took not Han was the one who said the next Buddha may be the Sangha. And and that kind of has a democratization connotation to it. You know, that, that and the hierarchical one to many kind of model. It might be shifting to one of the many to many, which is kind of what the internet is, I mean, the internet. It used to be that you had to own a television station or a newspaper to broadcast information. Now we’ve got this many to many model that has taken And over the world. And I think perhaps in the spiritual realm realm, there will be something of that kind of a dynamic also. But nonetheless, I still think there are and will probably continue to be very bright lights within that matrix. Whom around whom others may congregate. That’s still useful, useful, right? Or situation for those people.
Joi Sharp: Right for inspiration, right? Because that’s, I mean, here we have people like Shama, and Jesus that say, you’re capable of doing this, you have you have this in you, you you can do much greater works in this or however he put it, you’re probably better at this. And he said,
Rick Archer: whatsoever, the great things that I do, you too, shall even do to do even greater things.
Joi Sharp: Yes, yeah. So you know, these words are, those are kind of like beacons, for my being. And not that I’m going to go out and do great works. But that just that inspiration, that impulse, keep going. And that’s what I think the bright lights are there for. Yeah. And also this resonance, this field that we were talking about the tuning fork, that that’s where the, that’s how teachings are going to start to be really integrated the collective field, we’re going to start to feel it more in our being using our body using the nervous system to start to recognize, okay, what’s, what’s not what doesn’t know the truth here? Right? Where what isn’t integrated in that, and just start to pay attention rather than conceptualizing teachings using our own being? Because that’s where the field is. That’s where it’s happening.
Rick Archer: Well, you know, you just alluded to something a minute ago about how there’s big shifts taking place in society. I see those as expressions are manifestations of a shift in collective consciousness. And by consciousness, I don’t just mean attitude, or you know, or, you know, social perspectives or something. I mean, that something deeper than that, you know, what, what we in this audience would understand to be consciousness, the most fundamental field of all is getting enlivened. And through its Enlightenment, all kinds of dominoes are going to start falling and things are going to start shifting with much greater repetitive and they have so far.
Joi Sharp: Yeah, yeah, I agree. Because that’s what exposure does. That’s what clarity does, doesn’t it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it has a it has a purifying effect on form. Right. Yeah. And, you know, we’re all, we’re all part of it, and start to recognize it that, you know, you’re part of it right now. That’s, that’s it, and, and the more clarity can start to wake itself up. And that’s, I think that’s my role as a as a teacher, and I will continue to do that, which is the other part of Dave’s question. I do see myself continuing that role. I really, I love working with people. I really love working with people and, and just to watch people start to access that clarity within themselves is extremely satisfying for me. So
Rick Archer: I’d say that, you know, I think this is a good time to be alive. In especially if one has a spiritual bent. You know, it’s, there’s, it’s a very opportune time for rapid evolution. There’s a wave, and you can catch that wave. And, you know, so make, you know, throwing in a lot of metaphors here, but make hay while the sun shines.
Joi Sharp: Well, and also, you know, and to be even more precise with it, it’s got to be to the exclusion of all other things.
Rick Archer: I mean, that doesn’t mean you, Emily, and having play tennis or something like that. Pickleball pickleball, you don’t want to be fanatic. Well,
Joi Sharp: I live. Okay, and maybe I’m using somebody else’s quote, that could be easily misunderstood. But let’s just clarify that then it makes it even more precise, not to the exclusion of other things, but to the reliance of other things, that we’re relying on the family to fulfill us, or we’re relying on the pickleball to give us a sense of satisfaction or dominance. Whenever you know what I mean. Okay, and thanks for the thanks for the clarification. That’s really that’s really fun. And you know, I you know, because I still have interests, I love to go hiking and I know Yeah, and I love to be outside and I love to I love dogs and
Rick Archer: you know, I said you know joy, you should just sit there with your eyes closed and for Get dogs and hiking.
Joi Sharp: And I you know, and I love having conversations and I and I. And so it’s not to the exclusion of other things, but to the belief that they’re going to give you something.
Rick Archer: And a nice aspect of it is that the spiritual development actually enhances those other things. If you enjoy dogs more and hiking more,
Joi Sharp: and you might get better at pickleball,
Rick Archer: you do a reasonably flexes or faster, they’ve actually done studies on that faster reaction time with people who make it.
Joi Sharp: There you have it. Yeah.
Rick Archer: Okay. How are you doing? They’re feeling like, we got a little bit more steam in you for this conversation.
Joi Sharp: Yeah. Okay. Good. Do you have? Do you have another question?
Rick Archer: I do have? Well, not from anybody else. But I have another note here I wanted to read from your book, is because it hasn’t, I think we haven’t quite talked about this. If we stay open, we can experience many shifts or awakenings. Most of these shifts in consciousness will be subtle, and the invitations to see will become increasingly more subtle. If we stay open, we will free ourselves of the desire for a big shift. And I have found it as in the subtle shifts, that really is I found that is the subtle shifts that really add up to develop a mature perspective. I think the reason I excerpted that quote was that some people are waiting for the big shift, you know, the, the kind of the fireworks to go off. And they might wait forever for that, and yet have undergone profound development, which is somebody else with a nervous system wired slightly differently might have achieved through a big, dramatic, contrasting shift. But that is no more significant than what this more incremental person has achieved.
Joi Sharp: Right. So, a lot of times, people will get, like, what I call gifts, and those are usually the big ones. They’re, they’re the ones that give the being of big opportunity to see in a very, very obvious way. Right? And it’s, it’s good, it’s, it’s almost essential for us to see in an obvious way, the transparency, of the illusion of what things that separate. Okay, and that’s, that’s all it is, it’s just something that you need a big sort of knock on the head obvious. Yeah. And that’s what happened for me, you know, and when I was in my 20s, what has transpired since then, are more ordinary things, there, it’s not a big special thing at all. You know, fortunately for me, after the big one came, a lot of it opened the way for, for deeper work on the emotions and on the on the being, yeah, which was, which was essential for me to continue on my journey, I had to do that, you know, and we all probably do. But yet, these moving into the ordinary of life, you know, I’ve got a day job, and librarian, librarian, and it here in my little town, where pretty much everybody knows who I am, I’m the librarian. Right? It doesn’t allow me any place to be a kind of a teacher, I’m not really a teacher here in this town. And so I go to work, which has been really healthy for me, none of my co workers are interested in any of this stuff, not nothing. So I’m moving into the relative on where consciousness is in any moment, in my conversations, and it’s amazing all those places that be in being that can start to see start to try to maintain some separation when it’s encountering something that it doesn’t necessarily agree with. You see, does that make sense? I think so. Okay. Because we’re all going to have like, perspectives. And if we’ve had big shifts, we’re going to have like, it’s going to be easy to project our perspectives on to others or onto life.
Rick Archer: If less we’re really integrated, and you know, that’s what has to follow from big shifts big or small. So can you function as a normal person without making a big fuss about yourself or you know,
Joi Sharp: exactly, exactly. So here, here we are in you know, in the day job and Nobody has this. Nobody sees things maybe the same way you did. And that became that was very obvious to me. When I first came back from India. 15 years ago, I started saying, well, people don’t act, people see things different. And I had no idea that I had anything that happened at that point. But that was kind of my first clue. But there was still a lot of us separation, or seemingly unintegrated parts of my being, that were starting to show up in this circumstance of living a very simple, ordinary life. And those were the places that clarity really wanted to start to see, oh, this is trying to maintain some sort of perception.
Rick Archer: Right? Yeah.
Joi Sharp: This is finding someplace because it’s is it’s all about where it’s trying to hide, where it’s trying to maintain separation, right. If we feel separation in our body, there’s separation still in our body. And it’s going to be it’s been my experience that it’s these very ordinary circumstances and situations in life, very simple, that are going to start to really show those places up that are extremely important for integration.
Rick Archer: Let me interject a question here that came in from Paul in Santa Cruz, which is relevant to what we’re talking about. He asks, Can one’s tendency for solitude in the spiritual quest actually be a form of individual contraction and a form of repulsion towards other humans? This in and of itself might be one of the knots you speak of. This is something I encounter in myself.
Irene Archer: Paul just emailed and said,
Rick Archer: Oh, Paul just emailed and said what?
Irene Archer: He meant to say repulsion by humanity not towards,
Rick Archer: by he meant to say repulsion by humanity, not towards so in other words, repulsion. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I think you can make something out of that. But to me, again, that that speaks of the necessity for integration.
Joi Sharp: Yeah. And I think there’s a time that solitude is important. Because distraction is also very, very easy to do in in the world, you know, it’s distraction is everywhere, and people are going to find ways to distract themselves, rather than rather than encounter themselves. And I think the solitude piece is a beautiful time to start to see maybe what still trying to distract from encountering itself really fully. You know, I think, Paul, it’s important for you to start to practice discernment for yourself, because this isn’t there’s not a blanket answer. It’s definitely possible, though, that it can be solitude can be a form of protection, which I also have seen in people. I, when I first came back from India, I really wanted solitude, I wanted to be alone and be very quiet and life provided the means for me to do it, but I still had to work a day job. So that gave me the means to still participate in life. And in our little community, I, you know, I stuff was coming up still. And so it gave me the opportunity to keep things moving. And then as in going home to my quiet life was a way to kind of still provide the nurturing and the nourishment to being that still needed, I needed that still. Might, when I came back from India, my being was going through quite a bit of turmoil. And, and, and trying to reorient itself into a new way of operating. So you know, too much solitude if we’re not having any kind of engagement with life, that it’s not going to give us much opportunity for growth. So I think it’s a really important thing to find that balance, which for me, at that time was living alone. And this lasted for for quite a while, I think about seven years. And then I was working that day job. And then it was really interesting. I started to notice another movement that felt like it wanted to become even more engaging in life. And so I moved to town. It started to feel a little too isolated. It wanted to engage more I didn’t need those periods of being alone and being integrated and being with myself or may The Bing with the stuff that came up during the day. Right? So it doesn’t quite need to. It doesn’t need to remove itself anymore like it used to.
Rick Archer: Yeah, I mean, then yet you’re not going out to discos until three in the morning or something, you know, there’s just sort of a level of activity and engagement that’s appropriate for you. And your nervous system. I mean, I’ve been on like six month meditation retreats and stuff, when, if you just went into town to buy toothpaste, it was like, oh, yeah, get let me get back to my room. Yeah, yeah. You know, so you need to there needs to be integration. There’s, there’s really You said it, there’s a time for retreat, and in silence and inwardness. And there’s a time for integration of that. And that and that necessitates engagement, in activity engagement with other people engagement with the world. Otherwise, you know, if it’s, if it’s this thing that we can only sustain and when we’re kind of sitting in our room, it’s not really it’s not stabilized, and something’s gonna disrupt it. So, you know,
Joi Sharp: yeah, you know, it’s amazing when you can, when you can sit in this room, that’s like the perfect temperature and the perfect lighting, and there’s no noise and still, you’re still not quite settled into your being. And if this is important, just to use our discernment about am I hiding? Am I using this desire to be alone as a means to keep feel safe, because that’s another way for people to feel safe and comfortable, because it’s what we’ve known, it’s what we can deal with. And moving back into life, and in a very integrated way. It’s simple, and it’s ordinary, and nobody’s going to really recognize that you are, but there’s something in your being that really is very satisfying, because it wants to move into form. Right? Formless wants, it wants to move into form, it wants to be in in the mix. Yeah, thanks for your question, though. Yeah, good one. I hopefully, the answer was appropriate. I mean, valuable.
Rick Archer: And you know, what you do Joy, I think is a good prescription for possibly for was it Paul, I think his name was and for people in general, and many people have spoken to nature is a very nice, healing kind of thing to be in and to, you know, hiking and swimming and, and so on. It’s very grounding, very nourishing, and, you know, so if you’re feeling kind of a little bit too inward or something, you know, maybe some physical activity in the good out of doors would, would be just the prescription.
Joi Sharp: Yeah, movement. Yeah, I mean, get get out there. And even getting out in the great outdoors. For some people that can be kind of scary. I’ve noticed that, you know, some people aren’t so comfortable just going out there hiking on a trail by themselves. Just tell people where you’re going, you know. But, yeah, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s important to get out of our comfort zone. It really is, it’s, you got to mix it up. And you know, for me, India was the big one that was a big getting out of the comfort zone. And, and that, you know, it was it was hard, it was hard on the nervous system. But it was also that kind of what we have to do is start to become aware of familiar tendencies within our being you know, those those are that’s those are the little Wake Up Calls, inside the familiar tendencies what we tend to fall back into, right. Yeah,
Rick Archer: so I’m going to read one little quote one final little quote from your book that I think it’d be a nice note to end on. You can comment or not comment wherever you feel but I just thought this is sweet. You said our world is a beautiful place it is not something we should dismiss as being only a dream
Joi Sharp: Yeah. Yeah, I’ll comment on it because you know, the experience of of this that’s moving through our being we all know this, this there’s a deep desire to connect. And that’s, that’s often coming from our from truth, that true essence within our being. It is looking for intimacy with itself. And it’s going to find it. It has the capacity, the potential to To find it everywhere. And this is coming back into the simple, ordinary place, when it finds this intimacy with people it doesn’t know, you know, the waitress that comes to the table, whoever the dog down the street, whatever it might be it, there’s a sense of completion that happens, and finding intimacy everywhere in the world. And so this is our opportunity, right? This is this is it. So that’s, that’s, that was that invitation right there.
Rick Archer: Yeah, God is hiding in plain sight. You know, the world is the divine. That waitress that comes to your table is God and in the form of a waitress?
Joi Sharp: Yeah, yeah. Yeah,
Rick Archer: that whatever.
Joi Sharp: Yeah. Yeah.
Rick Archer: Beautiful. Well, thanks, Joi, this has been a marvelous couple of hours. And I will be putting up all the usual information for people to get in touch with you and find your website and all that stuff. So anyone listening to this can do that, go to batgap.com. And you’ll, you’ll see Joy’s page and also the page for her previous interview, which you might wish to listen to. And I’ll probably see you in June, hopefully, when?
Joi Sharp: Yeah, I hope so. Yeah. And thank you so much. I mean, what a what a great time to actually share this, you know, over the holidays. Were just that sense of the sacred is just a little closer. I don’t
Rick Archer: know. Yeah. I actually have my Christmas shirt on, but you can’t quite see it. I love it.
Joi Sharp: Thanks for wearing your Christmas shirt, Rick. Yeah. So and every yeah, thanks to everybody that’s joining us with the questions. And it was really, really fun. Yeah, thank you.
Rick Archer: Thank you all. And so just a final wrap up pointer to, you know, this is an ongoing series of interviews, as you must know, and if you want to find out more, go to batgap.com. And in addition to Joy’s interview, you’ll see all the other ones and you’ll see a place to sign up for the email notification of new interviews and a link to the audio podcast if that if you prefer that to video, and a bunch of other stuff. Just poke around on the site and you’ll find what is there to offer or what is there. So thanks, Joi. Thanks, Rick. All right. See you again.
Joi Sharp: See again, happy holidays.
