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Rick Archer: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer, Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of interviews with spiritually Awakening people. As I always say, beginning there have been now over 340 of them. And if this is new to you, you can find all the past ones [email protected]. Under the past interviews, section BatGap is a 501 C three, which means it’s a nonprofit, tax exempt organization. And it exists solely on the basis of donations from Vaughn, voluntary donations from people who appreciate it. So if you feel like supporting it, please do. There’s a Donate button on the on the website. And if you don’t feel like it, enjoy it anyway. It’s freely available. So my guest today is Chadwick Johnson, Chad for short. And he has a fairly long bio here that he sent me. But I think I won’t read the whole thing because it’s better to if he just tells us this stuff. And he’ll tell this whole story in the process of this conversation. He has tell you a little bit he and his wife Erica have been married for 18 years. They live in Sacramento, California, with their five children. He has a bachelor’s degree and a law degree. What do you just you just recently, Pat, you don’t know yet. If you pass the law exam, he took the bar exam. And we’ll see we’ll keep our fingers crossed. And we can all pray for Chad. Hope that he passes. And he also works as a computer programmer for Hewlett Packard. He’s an adjunct professor at Sacramento City College. He teaches or conducts regular soft songs in the area has a YouTube channel with all kinds of good stuff on it. And used to be quite an athlete too. I mean, you actually almost made the NFL or you got dipped your toe into it for a little bit. Right.
Chadwick Johnson: A very quick dip. A very quick toe dip, but it was a good experience.
Rick Archer: Yeah. And you’re you’re pretty good basketball player. So well rounded individual.
Chadwick Johnson: Thank you. I didn’t know all that stuff was out there. You must
Rick Archer: I heard all this stuff. And you talking to Jerry Katz and you know other other things that I listened to.
Chadwick Johnson: You’re very thorough, very thorough.
Rick Archer: Well, I’m a junkie for this kind of thing. I I love kind of hearing people’s stories and hearing what they have to say. And each week is a new adventure for me getting to know the person.
Chadwick Johnson: It’s a great hobby.
Rick Archer: It is
Chadwick Johnson: a great hobby to have.
Rick Archer: Yeah. So I have heard you tell your story in various other interviews, and it’s quite an interesting one. And, you know, obviously, we don’t have to start from infancy. But there are some key points in your whole trajectory that I think will lay a foundation for the discussion we’re going to have, and I think you know where to start. So let’s go ahead and start and we’ll take it from there.
Chadwick Johnson: Okay. Well, I think we’ll the best place to start is back when I was in law school, that’s when I, you know, start having a bunch of panic attacks, I started having pretty severe panic attacks. And you know, once you have one, you always think you’re going to have another one. So for my four years in law school, I was always thinking I was going to have a panic attack. And then one day studying for my last
Rick Archer: because you’re in so much pressure, right?
Chadwick Johnson: Well, I don’t know,
Rick Archer: stress or something.
Chadwick Johnson: I don’t know. Because I never from up to that point in my life. I had never experienced panic attacks, and I’ve had a stressful situation. So it was really something that I couldn’t wrap my finger around, and it got progressively more intense, you know, I’d have something like what was that and then next thing you know, it was like full on panic attacks and very sensitive, very, like, paranoid about having another panic attack. It’s just not it was just not a good state. And then, like, when I was studying for my very last set of finals, I was at Borders Bookstore, and I took a walk around to take a break from studying and I saw the power of now. And somebody had told me about it previously, and I put it in my phone, but you know, I had a list of books in my phone. And I just happened to see that book. So right there in borders, I started you know, kind of reading, reading it and um Uh, you know, after, you know, not too long, right there in borders, everything kind of just got silent. And I knew that at that point I would not be having any panic attacks anymore. You know, it was like one of those drastic shifts?
Rick Archer: Yeah.
Chadwick Johnson: You know?
Rick Archer: Yeah, you know, it’s like, drastic shifts are interesting. And it’s almost like the people who have kind of reached more or less of a crisis often have the most drastic ones. And Eckhart Tolle is a case in point. I mean, he was almost suicidal, you know, and then he had that little thought of, you know, are there two of me, who, I can’t live with myself in one way, or the two of them, and just that little thought, triggered the shift
Chadwick Johnson: Exactly and I can’t tell you what exactly I’ve read, in his book, some, maybe it was that, or something happened, where the book was not important, then I could just sit and just, you know, my heart was just pounding in my chest, and just kind of just look around and see was what was happening, you know, it was just, I mean, you know, it’s one of those things that I didn’t, I had never experienced, or I’d never heard of happening. So and I was, it was just a tremendous amount of peace about it. So I knew that I didn’t have to worry or anything, and that it was not a bad thing. And also had like, the shift is like this. I just knew that I was no longer a victim to panic attacks, it was like, they became very harmless, my, my home, everything about my mind movement became very, you know, secondary, I guess.
Rick Archer: So it’s not that you still had panic attacks, but they were harmless, but you actually just didn’t have them. Right? Is that what you’re saying?
Chadwick Johnson: Um, well, let me just say, there was a honeymoon phase, after I had that initial awakening, and then, you know, for several weeks or months, um, I don’t know, for sure. But I was just really in, you know, in a state of, you know, like, bliss. I hate to use those cliche roads. But I mean, you know, that’s basically what it was. And then I would just, every day, I would walk to the river and just sit with the ducks, and not meditate, but just sit with the dots and just be still, and just enjoy the not thinking the lack of ambition, worrying about the future, just just kind of getting used to this. And, you know, testing it, too, because I wasn’t very, you know, kind of like, is this going to go away? Or, you know, there was just like, a lot of confusion. But after a while, you know, I wouldn’t say I never had another panic attack. But my my mind did turn and attack. I would say there was attempts or, you know, the onset of panic attacks, where I was able to kind of see, see it happen from a different perspective. So there was no panic in the attack.
Rick Archer: Yeah, more detached from it or something. Exactly, exactly. And I wouldn’t say bliss is a cliche. Bliss is real, you know. And it’s a real experience. And it’s can be very profound and very nourishing, and gratifying and wonderful. So, you know, I
Chadwick Johnson: mean, it was definitely whatever it is, whatever you call it, it was definitely one of those things that made me realize right away that nothing else mattered. Yeah. You know, like, really not. I mean, I could actually throw everything in that and say nothing else mattered. And that’s the only thing like, that’s the only thing I cared about, from that point on, not my not my job, not my family, not my friends, not my goals, not my dreams, not my aspirations, not anything. It was just that, you know,
Rick Archer: did you become irresponsible or kind of like detached from your family or something? I mean, did your family perceive a kind of like a negative shift in you?
Chadwick Johnson: Oh, no, no, no. Well, you got to remember, I was in law school and working full time at the time. So they weren’t really seeing a whole bunch of me anyway, right. And then this was during finals when this happened. So I was still studying for finals after this shift had already happened. So I remember sitting in the library, and just sitting in the library, watching everyone walk around and stress about you know, the exams and even in my head thinking you should probably be studying, but then having something that was greater saying all as well so that I could that I could just rest there. I didn’t have there was no sense of urgency about studying or anything, you know, it was just It was good. But going back to my family, they definitely saw a shift. But I think everyone on the outside was kind of probably pretty skeptical about that shift, you know. And, you know, I don’t blame them, you know, I was just, it’s a, it’s something I probably didn’t handle. I mean, I did not handle. I didn’t handle right, looking back on it as a very immature having a spiritual awakening. And I just was, I didn’t, I didn’t my imagination caused me to do things that I think that I was more than I was, you know, at the time, it was just, yeah, I had some pretty it was it was the combination of bliss, or, you know, Heaven and Hell, even after the spiritual awakening, you know, after that honeymoon phase,
Rick Archer: did your shift, your newfound peace and tranquility actually help you get through finals better?
Chadwick Johnson: You know, when I, when you say better, I would say definitely in from the state of not being stressed about it at all are. And honestly, you know, your last year in law school, your last set of finals, you already kind of know that the drill, so it’s not a very stressful set of exams anyway, you know, so yeah, I don’t know that it helped me too much as far as academically, but as far as my stress, obviously, there wasn’t no stress. Yeah,
Rick Archer: I bet you it happened helped you academically, too. I mean, if you’re all stressed out, then you can’t think clearly. And you’re likely to not do as well.
Chadwick Johnson: I’m sure. I mean, it has so many. I mean, it hit my whole life has been healed by this awakening. You know, if I don’t get anything else, you know, my relationships, everything I can’t even just to name one thing would be arbitrary. You know, everything has healed as a result.
Rick Archer: And so do you define what happened to you? Right, you know, when you picked up that Eckhart Tolle book as the awakening, or was that just sort of the beginning of it, and then there was more to unfold?
Chadwick Johnson: Well, I think in order to, I think, yeah, that was the awakening, as far as I’m concerned. Because from that point on, I knew that I was not my thinking. And although I fell asleep, I fell asleep. And I continue to fall asleep in my thinking. There was never a, there’s no continuity in my ego, you know what I mean? So when there’s always these breaks in between, you know, egoic identification, then it can never take hold. So there was just like, a underlying sense that all as well, even within the drama, you know,
Rick Archer: yeah. And you never lost that. That’s cool.
Chadwick Johnson: Yeah. And it just clarifies itself, as I mature, you know?
Rick Archer: Yeah. So I got the sense from listening to your other recordings, and interviews and things that, you know, this, this really set you off on a quest to understand what this is about. And you started devouring books and YouTube videos and all that stuff.
Chadwick Johnson: Absolutely. I mean, I was already in that study mode, you know, like reading and just going deep. And I just took a Well, I actually had paid for the bar exam. And all of my classmates while they were studying for the bar, you know, I was at the river or, you know, reading Eckhart Tolle, or, you know, reading some type of spiritual materials. I didn’t really start watching the videos until a little later on. So it was mostly just reading and just, you know, just sitting with it course, in miracles, I read that thick book probably 10 times, over, you know, just, you know, and not not I was reading in a way that I’d never read before, because there was something in me that was teaching me how to read, like, I already knew that when you read, you know, I’m not reading to learn, you know, I just read and allow the reading to do whatever it’s doing, you know, it was just a very, I was being I was, my hand was being held the whole time, you know, and I just trusted everything that everything that I found myself doing, I just trusted it.
Rick Archer: That’s kind of interesting. You know, I mean, even finding the power of now was sort of like your hand was being held. And it’s like you’re meant to see that right.
Chadwick Johnson: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Rick Archer: And then I guess you’re saying that even ever since then, there’s a sense that the The intelligence of the universe or whatever has been guiding you, and prompting you to do the next. The next thing?
Chadwick Johnson: Yeah, I mean, you know, at this point, this is, what, four, six years, seven years later, six years, I don’t know, I It’s been a long time now and it has its depth, it’s a different, it’s a different experience, it’s very obvious to me now, you know that this is kind of unfolding. And we have a sense that time is moving forward, and that we’re kind of playing along. And I don’t, in order for you to I and this is just the way that I see it in order for you to ever for the questions to ever stop or for ever to ever feel that you’re done or whatever, there has to be up knowing that something else is in control, and everything is just so yeah,
Rick Archer: do you feel like you’re done?
Chadwick Johnson: I mean, to us, I mean, the answer to all these questions are going to be yes and no. Right. So, of course, I’m done. To a certain extent, you know, there’s no more I don’t have any questions. The ego doesn’t, that the egoic identification, Chad, is the role that I play is, has a lot of maturing to do very immature, my spiritual, knowing our understanding is more far more advanced than my actual, you know, my conditioning, you know, and it’s a beautiful balance, you know, because I wouldn’t have it any other way I like, now I have embraced the part of me that is more conditioned, you know, not embrace, but just like, you know, I enjoy that part equally as much, you know, I’m not trying to get rid of it, or try to heal it or anything, you know, it’s a very good, the universe knows what it’s doing, right?
Rick Archer: made me laugh, because I saw this sort of not a cartoon, that actual pictures in it the other day, where, on the top, it had this beautiful picture of the Buddha. And it said, How I think I sound when I talk about spiritual stuff. And then on the bottom, it had a picture of Forrest Gump sitting on the bench. And it said, how I sound to others, I talk about spiritual stuff.
Chadwick Johnson: Exactly, I mean, imply the peace, part of the peace, that, that the lasting peace, I’m not talking about the sense of the peaceful experience, or the bliss that comes and goes, I’m talking about part of the underlying piece that goes along with my experience comes from the sense that I am perfectly imperfect, and I don’t have to heal anything or fix anything, and that I don’t have to be more enlightened or less enlightened. Or if I fall asleep in my identity, or my ego, my kids are getting on my nerves, and I want things to be different. There’s nothing that’s there to come around and judge and say, You should be more enlightened than that. It’s just like, it is what it is, you know?
Rick Archer: Yeah. So it sounds like you’re very accepting.
Chadwick Johnson: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Very accepting.
Rick Archer: Yeah. I liked it. You said your Yes. And no, when I asked, you feel like you’re done. It’s sort of like if somebody says, Are you educated? Well, yeah, but am I as educated as a person can ever be? No, you know, so like, there’s always more possibility. Right?
Chadwick Johnson: Especially, especially in this community of non duality. There’s always answer that is on it depends on the level of frequency, basically, and this is just for the lack of better terms, you know, depends on every question that you ask, I have to listen to the question and trying to extrapolate whether or not you’re asking my ego Do you want to know from Chad? Or do you want to know, from the you know, from a level of truth that’s not trying to, that’s not playing along in the role of duality, like in order for us to have this conversation you have to play the role as the interviewer and I have to play the role as the spiritually awakening being and it’s fun but there is a level of truth or a level of knowing that is on a on a deeper level. And you know, if we go there then we’ll talk it’ll sound different I think you know,
Rick Archer: yeah, well, and there is and I’ve listened to a lot of your I listen all your YouTube videos and I convert things to audio and then listen while I’m cutting the grass and stuff, but you know, there was definitely a lot of genuineness and a lot of wisdom coming through. That it didn’t sound like you just learned. Learn the lines you know, learned what to say is like you’re taking this stuff to heart, and you’re speaking from your heart and coming out with some very helpful stuff for people.
Chadwick Johnson: Well, like, I mean, really, I could say this, you know, when we, when I give interviews, you know, obviously, in this as a spiritual teacher, you want to say things that are, you know, are, you know, that help push along the movement or the understanding, you don’t want to say what everybody else is saying, you know, everybody says the same thing, regurgitate the same thing over and over again. So the good thing is that, I don’t really know a lot of jargon, you know, I don’t, I’m not educated in that sense. So I just kind of speak from my experience. And in that sense, it’s always going to be, you know, unique, in a way, you know, it’s always going to be fresh.
Rick Archer: That’s really what everybody should be doing, in my opinion. Even if they’re saying stuff and quoting the Upanishads, or, you know, speaking perennial wisdom, if they’re not speaking from their experience, or if they don’t make it clear that they’re not speaking from their experience, and there’s something disingenuous about it, and it’s not going to have the potency or the value that it would have if they’re actually, you know, speaking from their experience.
Chadwick Johnson: And I gotta say that, you know, with spiritual teachers, I there is something in me, that’s, I’m just the big skeptic, I’m a very skeptical person, you know, and I just feel like sometimes, we’re not being, I’m going to talk about spiritual teachers, as we, you know, sometimes we are not being as honest as we can’t be, you know, and it’s not helping people to snap out of it. It’s more so progress, it seems like it’s prolonging. You know, just like, for example, let me give you a perfect example, is this, when I teach when I go to two sets on, one of the main things that I tried to do is, let people know that there are no levels of spirituality, you know, there’s no one who is more enlightened than anyone else, or, and then I always get hit with the same thing, oh, I just felt this person’s presence when they, when I was in their presence, you know what I mean? And I just, I’m like, Well, you know, it’s your presence, is your presence. It’s not anyone else’s presence that can make you feel, you know, I just like it whenever you feel like somebody else is presence is what’s giving you the sense of spiritual Enlightenment or giving you closer to the truth, then you’re kind of, you know, shining your own divinity in a way, and we need to recognize our own each person needs to recognize their own divinity. And every teacher should be trying to help everyone see that. You are the divine, you are the divine, you know?
Rick Archer: Yeah.
Chadwick Johnson: And I don’t I don’t know if I see that that much.
Rick Archer: Yeah. A few responses to that. I saw this quote from Amma the other day, Ammachi, you know, and someone asked her, this whole crowd around her and someone asked her, Are these people worshipping you? And she said, No, I’m worshiping them. I see God in all of them. And when you sit in the presence of some somebody like that, there’s definitely a sense of divinity that sort of saturates the atmosphere and you feel very uplifted and all but it’s not like she’s sending cosmic blu rays, you know, from her to you or something. It’s more like, it’s more like the kind of the, the ground of being is enlivened in that atmosphere, and it’s your own being, and it’s just, it’s getting enlivened in everyone and everything and therefore, you feel this sort of upsurge or upliftment. But again, it’s not a transmission from point A to point B, it’s more like a, she’s just serving as a sort of a fertilizer which enlivens the ground for everyone helps to enliven the ground for everyone. There’s this synergy that takes place with the mutual participation of everyone there.
Chadwick Johnson: Yeah. And it’s just like, when I read that book from Eckhart Tolle something he said made everything go silent, and I was present, and there was presence. And sometimes when you’re in the presence of a being maybe when you see them, it causes you to go silent, but it’s not them. It’s your own divinity that you experience. You know, and and obviously it’s all they’re all sensations. You know, this is all the world of sensations but you That’s just my skepticism probably, you know, just not seeing anyone is carrying around a spirit that can that is any greater than anyone else, you know, I feel like, that’s the, that’s the way that this it is out there seems
Rick Archer: Yeah. Well, I think there’s a yes and no to that one too. Okay, in that, you know, we’re all the same spirit, we’re all the same beings. You know, they say that there’s that saying that, you know, we’re, we’re not human beings having spiritual experiences, we’re spiritual beings having having a human experience. But it actually goes beyond that, because we’re being itself, which is not individuated, we’re, you know, the cosmic person, pure awareness. shining through all these different instruments, you know, your instrument, my instrument, and so on. And so in that sense, there are no levels, there’s no difference. It’s all God, kind of seeing through various instruments of the Divine, you know, this person, that person, but, you know, but different instruments have different radiating capacities, like, you know, I’m looking at the light bulbs in my room, and some of them are brighter, some of them are dimmer, but they’re all tapped into the same electrical field, yet, they’re designed in such a way that they have different capacities for, you know, transmitting that, that fit field and converting it into lumens into light
Chadwick Johnson: I mean, okay, perhaps, you know, that’s all you can say, that’s what it seems like, you know, I do. I mean, I know, I agree with you, in that sense, like, there are, there’s the physical, there’s the science, you know, there’s the science, but then even sciences for the sake of human understanding, it’s just all here so that, you know, it’s packaged in a way that we can understand it, you know, and you know, the since the whole premise behind, or not the whole premise, but the idea behind non duality, I guess, or the what will ultimately cause all questions to cease is for there to be not just a understanding of non duality, but actual experience of non duality, like, Oh, absolutely, like to see that. And then like, to see all of everything from the, you know, from the bubble of truth. And then it all kind of everything kind of becomes an experience as an art just like, a temporary experience. And there’s really no truth to it, but it’s just how things seem, you know, and that definitely probably sounds like gobbledygook.
Rick Archer: No, it sounds good to me.
Chadwick Johnson: No, I mean, I think
Rick Archer: we can, we can clarify it as we go.
Chadwick Johnson: Okay, let’s do that.
Rick Archer: Actually, a question came in, it’d be a good time to ask it. Chris from Sacramento, you must know him asks, I don’t know what non duality is. Could you help me understand it? This question must be a plant, you probably know this guy.
Chadwick Johnson: Chris, okay. Non duality.
Rick Archer: Since we’re going to use the term you might as well define it.
Chadwick Johnson: Yeah. And that’s, that’s gonna be interesting. Um, I think non duality is a great pointer. To help us to see that everything is one thing. There’s, there could be countless definitions, but it’s just another one of those pointers that causes you to say, okay, you know, start questioning, I know that they’re saying there’s non duality, but I see this pin here. And that’s not me. So there’s duality there. So instead of, I guess, trying to disprove it, you kind of kind of look within and see okay, well then, what’s what what might non duality be pointing to? And the only way to do that is to not try to go at it intellectually trying to understand it, because the tool that you use to understand non duality is a tool that is in the world of duality. So it doesn’t it can’t understand it intellectually like that, it has to be non duality, what it is has to be seen. So that then any question about it kind of loses its meaning in a way. So I think always anytime a question like that comes in, I just say okay, well, non duality reveal itself into stillness. You know, To sit still, and then just pay attention and non duality will reveal itself and then the word non duality will kind of be, it will lose its meaning and all other concepts will lose their meaning in that space, and then once you go back to thinking and participating in the world of duality, you’ll be able to talk about non duality. You know, I think that’s kind of how it works, because a definition will, will kind of be misleading, in a sense,
Rick Archer: yeah. Well, you talked about science a couple minutes ago. And, you know, science could tell you to tell us that, on some level, the pen and your hand are, you know, the same thing, if you get down deep enough, on the atomic level, you wouldn’t be able to distinguish them, because they’re all just carbon, and isn’t that various, you know, molecules and atoms, and you can go even deeper than that, and everything’s really all non dual, it’s all just the unified field or something. So that’s, it’s useful as a as a metaphor as an intellectual understanding. But what you’re saying is that if this is to really be meaningful to us, and and have any kind of impact on our lives, it should we should somehow settled into the actual experience of the non dual not just be satisfied with intellectual explanations like that.
Chadwick Johnson: Yeah, I mean, because, you know, it’s just like anything, you could go infinitely, anything you want to learn about, you could, you could learn everything I ever did about it, information about this pin. And you could go as deep as you want to go. Or you could just say it’s a pin. And I don’t think, you know, it’s like, you know, the same, it’s kind of, I think, when it comes to this world of spiritual Enlightenment, you could be infinitely complex, or you could be infinitely simple. And I think the, the natural way to go about it is to go that you feel like you have to learn a lot, and to go the find the complexity, figure out the complexities of everything, and then ultimately come to this spiritual awakening. And the way from my experience, that’s not the way it happened. You know, in fact, my ego needed to get to the point where it realized that it knew nothing. And anything that it did know, was still nothing. Mooji says, if you multiply zero times anything, you get zero, right? So if you don’t know everything, if you don’t know all things, then you know, nothing, the unknown, so heavily outweighs, in this metaphor, the known that what can you really say is known. And even if you can say something is known, it’s not important for the sake of spiritual awakening, to know things, you know, and I can’t even say that that’s true, because I did a lot of reading and learning. Before I was ultimately, you know, like, I guess I just kind of get exhausted with trying to learn, you know, I don’t know what it is,
Rick Archer: yeah. Well, I think all the reading and learning kind of gives you tools for being able to talk about it. But if you think that just the reading and learning is going to give you the experience of it, then you’re going to be disappointed. As Christ said, you know, except up as little children, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. So he’s talking about simplicity there. And he’s not saying we should all be uneducated, or, you know, unable to express ourselves or anything like that. But there’s, there’s a sort of a simplicity about wise souls, even though they might be very learn it in a way, but there’s a childlike innocence about them. Look at somebody like tick, not Han, or, you know, Dalai Lama or something, that there’s a sort of innocent sweetness about them that shines through. I think that’s what you’re alluding to.
Chadwick Johnson: Yeah, I do. I mean, I think that there’s a it’s kind of like, in order to, you have to have the courage to go in the opposite direction that you’ve been conditioned to go in order to find what you’re looking for when it comes to spiritual Enlightenment, I guess, you know, it’s like, we’ve been trained to learn and to study and to go there. And I think the final question, the final question, when you when you have no more questions, it just comes down to you know, I know nothing, basically. That’s what allows me to rest. I had to rest in I know nothing before I had the courage to go out and start reading and enjoying life again. I had to really see that. The more I, all my wisdom, any wisdom that comes that I have comes from, when I am not using my intellect is from being silent and just experiencing. And, and then I’m able to recognize the obvious. I think the obviousness of the neutrality of everything is crying out. But we’re all so asleep in our collective dream of this collective dream of bodies and our story, you know, that we can’t see the obviousness, you know, of how neutral and silent everything is. You know, just, and it’s just waiting here for us to recognize, you know,
Rick Archer: yeah. A teacher of mine used to say it was fond of saying that the way ordinary education works is, the more you learn, the more you realize how little you know, and it just so in a sense, ignorance expands faster than knowledge does.
Chadwick Johnson: Yeah,
Rick Archer: But, but he always sort of emphasized that there’s, there’s a field, which is what you’re alluding to here, which is he called the home of all knowledge that all sort of all the sort of branches of information that sprout out as the universe reside there in their ultimate seed form. And if you can establish your awareness there, then you’ll have the benefit of all knowledge without having to go through the tedious and impossible task of actually acquiring all knowledge.
Chadwick Johnson: Which, which is impossible. Right?
Rick Archer: Right.
Chadwick Johnson: So, you know, it all comes back down to, to grace, you know, it all comes back down to grace, and what is being revealed to you. And it’ll be revealed to you in the form of, you know, it’ll have the sensation of possibly, you know, you learned it, or you, you know, you read something, you got an aha moment or however the universe just creatively gives you this decides to give you this experience, ultimately, it all comes back down to grace. And, you know, something being revealed, as opposed to, you know, discovered,
Rick Archer: yeah. So you went through, like, years of watching BatGap interviews. Yeah, I was actually just starting BatGap around the time you had that breakthrough with Eckhart Tolle. 2009. And, you know, you’ve watched tons of Mooji, interviews and talks and everything like that, and did you, do you still kind of gobble that stuff up? Or did you eventually reach a phase in which you didn’t even bother listening to things anymore?
Chadwick Johnson: Um, yeah, I don’t really. I don’t really watch the videos anymore. And not until, you know, I found that I was gonna do this video, this. Yeah, this interview, and I was like, oh, you know, so. But every now and then I’ll go back. And, you know, just see what Mooji You know, listen to Mooji and kind of get that nostalgic feeling. He’s, he doesn’t know it, but He’s my uncle. No. He’s like, I feel like, you know, I watched I watched him so much on auto play, and just so many hours of Mooji. But now, you know, it just doesn’t. You know, it’s more for just like, curiosity or entertainment. You know, and I have a very short attention span with spiritual teachers, basically, right now.
Rick Archer: Yeah. Personally, I hardly ever watch things because I don’t like to sit at my computer any more than I already do. But I’m kind of a podcast junkie and I always got these things in my ears listening to some interesting thing while I’m riding my bike or something, kill two birds with one stone.
Chadwick Johnson: Oh, yeah, I do that too. Nowadays, I listen to more. I listen to someone talk about financial management, or, you know, just, I’m just always trying to better myself, improve my, you know, I have, I have a lot of learning to do still. And now I can, you know, I’m free to explore any thing I want to explore without the psychological drum to find something else or whatever.
Rick Archer: So what do you actually talk about why You want to do Satsang? So what do you what sort of tools, if any do you equip people with so they can be exploring on their own.
Chadwick Johnson: Satsang, when I go to Satsang, I really have, it could be a variety of topics. But you know, my goal with Satsang, is to just be as honest as I could be, you know, and just to be, I always make sure that I let the people knows some of the things that I do that they wouldn’t expect for an enlightened person to do. Because I have a ton of examples, you know,
Rick Archer: for instance,
Chadwick Johnson: I don’t know, I mean, you know, you know, getting irritated with my kids is a very, I have five kids, and I’m not as patient as I, as maybe Mooji would be,
Rick Archer: I don’t know, who knows, he doesn’t have any kids? Or if he does, they’re not around.
Chadwick Johnson: Yeah. But, you know, I have, um, just so you know, like, when I play basketball, sometimes it’ll get heated, you know, and I want to win, you know, I’m just very competitive in that sense, or, you know, just very, um, like I said, I have both have monkey have mystic, you know, what I mean, and I embrace it, just because I’ve play hard, you know, like, in my role is chat, I don’t, I no longer feel like I have to monitor my spirituality to make sure that I don’t go too far, you know, into my egoic role, or that I might somehow, you know, lose it and be, you know, I don’t know, you know, I just, I’m free. You know, I remember when I first had my spiritual awakening, I was very detached from the world. Basically, I didn’t, I wore the same clothes every day, and I just was just not interested in social themes or any type of endeavors. I didn’t have any goals or dreams. There was no goals or dreams, nothing else mattered. And I was very cautious about, you know, you know, people would, I was, I’m also a hip hop artist, and people would ask me to do shows, or to do a YouTube video with him. And I was like, Nah, I don’t want to do anything right now, because I don’t want to, you know, I don’t want to make any waves in this column. And he’s calm waters, you know, and it was just, it was a very insecure feeling of, you know, since that I had, I could lose it in a way. And you know, and as time goes on, you know, it just that just kind of dissolves, in a way. And now my life is very much I’m very secure. I don’t, there’s not a I’m not very spiritual. I’m not I don’t, I’m not a very devout you know, anything, I’ll go to church, I could, I’m not, you know, I can embrace Christianity, my Christian roots and, and participate fully in religion, you know, as, you know, I could go to church and enjoy a service and not be in there judging, you know, too much, you know, and I just could be, I could just allow the universe to do whatever it wants to do this vessel without interfering in any way. And it’s just, that’s true. Freedom.
Rick Archer: That’s great.
Chadwick Johnson: Yeah.
Rick Archer: It’s funny when you said religion, it’s kind of you look a little bit like Chris Rock for a second. That expression he makes.
Chadwick Johnson: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, I was really at war with not at war, but at very, you know, you know, once I had my spiritual awakening, I wanted to really let Christians know that there’s more God out there, you know, then, you know, it’s just very, I was very most of my ego got back involved. I was just very not patient with others. I think my ego was just as it just instead of my ego focused on trying to become the next Johnnie Cochran or the best lawyer in the world. Now my ego was letting people know how spiritually enlightened I was because
Rick Archer: Spiritualized ego as people say,
Chadwick Johnson: I got it, I got it, I got it bad. I got it so bad that you know, I really I mean, I’m glad it happened the way it did, but I really put myself in some embarrassing situations, you know, and it’s, it’s for humility. Humility is the key, humility is the key and your ego, you know, your ego, I mean, my ego needed to be humbled over and over and over and over again, even to this day, you know, I get a gentle reminder from the universe that you know, you know, you are, you know, I am in control of things are, when I say I am saying this, this intelligence that has us here the universe, yeah, yeah, the universe, our God is kind of orchestrating these things, you know, and you, I give you the sense, I will give you the sense that you have to list them, and I will put people around you that wants to hear what you have to say. And when they ask questions, you’ll be able to give them the answer. But you have to remember the source because otherwise, you know, life will have to remind you, it does all the time.
Rick Archer: Yeah, that’s very well put, you know, I think that people kind of waked up as and who they are, it’s not like we’re all going to become Saint Francis of Assisi or something. Which is, but that’s not to say that a murderer is going to be some enlightened murderer who’s gonna go on murdering people, you know, definitely changes in personality take place, but there are certain fundamental attributes of personality and behavior, and this and that, and habits and tendencies that, you know, you might have all your life no matter how in, quote, unquote, enlightened you become.
Chadwick Johnson: Exactly. And I have to say that the opposite is also true. Like, before I read that book, Eckhart Tolle, “The Power of Now”, me and my wife, marriage was just not good. We were basically just roommates, you know, and, you know, there was no trust from either in from either side, you know, you know, there was just a fundamental like, division, there was just too much ego. And I, I was, you know, I had problems with my professors in law school. Because I felt like I was more than I, you know, you know, I have, I told you, I was in mock trial, we talked about it, I did mock trial, and I was in law school. And I was in this competition early, like, my first year in law school. And it was like, all first year students, like over 100 students, and I won that competition. And I had here and I’m working full time, and I’m just kind of do it in my spare time. And I won the competition. And I just, you know, it just went to my head, I felt like I’m killing it. And, you know, obviously, once I started, what, and then I started having these panic attacks, and everything started to unravel. And now I’m blaming my professors, and I’m taking chances in law school, I’m cutting corners, and I’m getting disciplined, and it’s just a lot going on. And it’s just, it was very humbling. It was a very humbling experience. I mean, I kind of lost my train of thought, but
Rick Archer: You talk about humility and, and making the point that we’ve been talking about this for a couple of minutes in a way of how, if you’re on a spiritual path, that the ego can still try to usurp it. And, you know, think that oh, I’m so spiritual. In fact, there’s this real funny guy that puts out these YouTube videos about being ultra spiritual, you may have seen him, where it’s like a headband and kind of long red hair. Tammy Simon interviewed him recently. But um, I think that another thing though, is if if you’re, if you’re sincerely committed to spiritual unfoldment you know, it’s like, God or whoever says, okay, buddy, you know, you asked for it. Now, I’m gonna grind you down a bit if necessary, you know, and humble you because you’re not going to you know, as, as Jesus said, it’s easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. And I think by rich man, he really meant egotistical person, you know, you have to sort of have that humility to, to get there. Absolutely. And so and if you don’t have it, or and none of us do perfectly. Then we’re going to get smacked around a bit by situations which will help to You refine us and diminish the, the sense of me, me me?
Chadwick Johnson: Yeah, absolutely. And you’d be an actor over time you just become just even when my ego rare, just ugly head, you know, I just kind of notice, you know, it’s it’s not a necessarily a bad thing, but I just kind of noticed like even, you know, being asked to be interviewed by you is like whoa, you know, that’s like a rite of passage. I’m official now, right?
Rick Archer: I’ve interviewed all kinds of bozos, so don’t let it go to your head.
Chadwick Johnson: know exactly. So, you know, but you know, even that, in itself, it was just like, I get to laugh at myself a lot. And I think that is part of why people come back to Satsang. You know, it’s just because we’re in there together.
Rick Archer: Yeah.
Chadwick Johnson: And I just, I get to kind of facilitate the conversation. And I used to work when, in the early days after I, you know, I told, I don’t know if I told you this, but it might be in my bio that, like, not long after I had that spiritual awakening with at borders, books, I started teaching. Like, right away.
Rick Archer: Yeah.
Chadwick Johnson: And it was just ridiculous. But I, but the thing is, like, the what the teaching itself was, you know, it was helpful, and, you know, I still stay in touch with a lot of people from those early days. And, you know, it’s just a beautiful thing. But looking back on where I was, spiritually, and what I was going through, psychologically, it just didn’t match, you know, and I wanted to be a teacher, so bad, I wanted to, you know, be enlightened. And I thought, that’s what was my calling, because anybody that has such a drastic shift, they must be called to be a teacher. And now and now more. So, you know, like, you know, I’ve got a Satsang because I love the people that I meet with every month, but I don’t need, I don’t need to be a teacher, you know, I got, you know,
Rick Archer: well, you know, I think if you keep it real as you’re doing, then you can you can do it, you know, I mean, you don’t have to be the most, you don’t have to be a Buddha to get out there and teach. If we do get puffed up, then the bigger they are, the harder they fall, you know, there’s been plenty of examples of that. But you know, I became a TM teacher when I was 21. And, you know, when I, when I was trained, Maharishi said, Well, you know, when there’s a war on, you can’t afford to train sharpshooters, you just have to give everybody a rifle and send them out there. So he was basically saying, you know, you’re a bunch of half baked idiots, but I’m gonna get you get you out there teaching because there’s a need. And, and as long as and I had some friends who went to their heads, and they were like, getting up on a couch and having people hand them flowers and stuff, and they crashed and burned. But you know, if he kept it real, and said, Hey, I’m just a guy, I’ve been meditating couple years, I have something valuable to offer. And here it is, then that that worked.
Chadwick Johnson: Yeah, and what I’ve really found is really helpful is, you know, like, the, the spiritual awakening that I had, that even gives me the right to be given this interview, or to give Satsang that came as a result of, you know, teaching and learning simultaneously, like, I get excited to one of the reasons why I was excited to give this interview is because I don’t know what I’m gonna learn from what I might say, or what you might say, you know,
Rick Archer: You surprise yourself, sometimes don’t you?
Chadwick Johnson: ask, asked all the time, all the time. And I get credit for it, you know, via this in like this, you know, this? Wow, that was that was so good. Or, I might come up with a story like, sometimes I’ll be in Satsang. And somebody will ask me a question. And then, as soon as they ask the question, I’ll sit for a moment. And then I’ll just break into the story. Yeah. And I don’t know where the story’s going. I kind of know what is going but I don’t know how I never told the story. And then when when I bring it home, I sit there, and then they’re like, oh, yeah, that’s perfect. That’s exactly what I was talking about. And I’m like, Wow, where did that come from?
Rick Archer: Isn’t that the neatest experience is amazing. Like, you’re kind of like getting out of the way and letting, letting the divine use you as a loudspeaker and stuff that comes through as you know, out of the mouths of babes, so to speak, you know,
Chadwick Johnson: so much so, and to the point where It’s not for them. You know, I, you know, I spiritual as a spiritual teacher I given that role but there’s a it’s like, while I’m in the role I already know like it on the level of duality there’s a teacher and the students, but in truth, there’s just this experience that I’m having I don’t have any proof that you are not a projection. No, I don’t have any proof that anyone that I see or anything that I see is not a projection. I don’t have any proof that even this, this body, and my sense of separateness is not a projection. And I don’t assume that it’s not it’s not it’s not important. I just know that when I’m, when I’m speaking. There is not necessarily for the audience. I always even even non spiritual advice, I’ll talk to my teenage daughter about something and I’ll tell her something, and I’ll give her some advice. And she’ll go away. And immediately I have to turn it on myself and say, Okay, why why did you have that experience? You know, and not necessarily ask that question, but just kind of sit with that advice that I gave, because any advice I give is always applicable to my own life in some way, you know, and sometimes I do that after the fact. Or, but sometimes it’s while I’m speaking, even as I’m speaking, as though the voice is speaking to myself until without any better way to and that’s not, that’s not completely accurate. But that’s the best words I have.
Rick Archer: I know what you mean. A couple of questions came in from the audience, let’s get to them. One is from Dan in London, he wants to know, did you have any experiences of a spiritual nature as a child?
Chadwick Johnson: Okay, so I’m gonna say yes and no, again, right. So, as a child, I do remember laying in bed in my grandmother’s house, so I don’t know, I had to be, you know, between the age of four and seven, eight, you know, four and eight, you know, and watching my thoughts. So that’s when I, when I give mindfulness exercises to people who are not necessarily interested in non duality, or Advaita, or whatever, and I just give mindfulness workshop, I always go back to just the fundamentals of how what are the mechanics of this thing? You know, because if you just talk about the mechanics, sometimes that’ll foster some type of understanding. And one of the things I do is I say, Okay, we’re gonna do exercise, like, Okay, we’re gonna sit and just watch our thoughts, you know, and it will count and we’ll just sit and watch our thoughts, you know, and, you know, watch them when I say watch my thoughts, is, in a way, you know, it’s like watching them objectively, and getting used to the experience of watching your thoughts objectively. Because that’s not something that we are taught, or it just doesn’t feel natural. You know, it doesn’t seem like you could watch your own thoughts objectively. And I remember as a young child, sitting watching my thoughts talked, you know, watching me talk to myself, and being the silent watcher of my own thoughts, talking to myself, but it was, it was just like, a, you know, that’s pretty much it. I grew up in the church, and I always had a relationship with God. And I in I was always in my youth group. And I, you know, I prayed, although there was always something missing. I felt like I was faking it sometimes, you know, but I felt like God was always, you know, I believe that that that I had early on was sincere. It’s nothing like the experience I had after reading the power of now. But it was it was like, I always felt like God was out there somewhere. You know, and I believe that all right, it from my experience, it seemed like God kind of honored that even though I was looking else outside of myself for God, you know, that was, that was the extent of my experience up until my spiritual awakening.
Rick Archer: Cool. Speaking of your spiritual awakening, Lauren from Brazil asks, After your awakening, did you experience a phase of the dark night of the soul? You mentioned that you went through Heaven and Hell, if I heard you correctly? If so, how long did that period last and didn’t it bring you into greater surrender and devotion. Thanks.
Chadwick Johnson: Yeah, I definitely went through that period of, of like, confusion, I remember crying tears of like, joy, just saying what is happening, you know, and just crying I remember this specifically one time I got out of the gym and I was just sitting in my car after playing basketball, and I was just in the car and I was just crying, sweeping crying, you know, just say, Why is this happening? You know, what is this? What is going on here? What is this, you know, and just being overcome with the sense of unconditional love from, from, you know, God or the creator, or the intelligence that has me here. And then at the same time, during that same period of time, I remember crying, saying, I didn’t ask for this, why? Why are you doing this shaking my fist that guy, you know, just really saying, you know, I just don’t, you know, crying the same tears, but just being so confused, like, exhausted, tired, you know, just like, What is going on? You know, when is this going to be over and just, it was a very, it’s a very, it was a very confusing time how long it lasted. The end of it was so subtle, that I don’t even know, you know, it just dissipated slowly, but surely, and I can’t even put a time if I told you how long it lasted, I’ll be making something up. It just kind of dissipated over time. You know, and the same with like, spiritual experiences, you know, I used to have these incredible experiences that, you know, I don’t even really like to share, because, you know, they’re just like, really unbelievable, and they’re just temporary experiences that come and goes, but the experience was so amazing at the time, it just, you know, encouraged me to seek more and seek more trying to recreate maybe that experience or something like it, you know, but then after a while, you know, spiritual experiences are kind of like, you know, it’s just like, you don’t really need I don’t really need a spiritual experience. Because, you know, what can be more spiritual? What can be more of a spiritual experience, and then this conversation or just this moment, you know, I feel like, when you first have your spiritual awakening, you need proof that this is real. And this is just my, you know, just my take on things. So you have to have these amazing out of, you know, like, you know, out, you know, otherworldly time,
Rick Archer: they’re very convincing, right?
Chadwick Johnson: Very convincing, and that if you explained it to somebody else, they’d be like, yeah, right, you know, or maybe that was just your, you know, you thought it felt like that, but, but I just don’t think there’s a need for that anymore. You know,
Rick Archer: I’m gonna play a little devil’s advocate on that one. I think I heard you quote Aldous Huxley. I don’t know if you mentioned him by name saying, when you get the message, hang up the phone.
Chadwick Johnson: Yeah.
Rick Archer: And he was actually referring to drug experiences, you know, psychedelics and all? Meaning, you don’t keep taking them once you get the point, there’s higher dimensions and so on.
Chadwick Johnson: Oh,
Rick Archer: pardon?
Chadwick Johnson: I didn’t know that’s what he was referring to.
Rick Archer: I mean, yeah, that’s what he was referring to, because he did psychedelics. And he was just saying, you don’t keep doing them and doing them and doing them, you get the idea. There’s, there’s more to life than meets the eye. And then you find more, sort of permanent, healthy ways of discovering it. But um, but I just wanted to the devil’s advocate part is just that. You know, I know people who have been on spiritual path for decades, and they’re very well grounded and nice, profound state of Self Realization, or whatever you want to call it. And we can think of historical examples to have various saints and sages and sit Ha’s and people like that. And they continue to have really profound experiences. They don’t think that these experiences are something they hang on to but they come and go just as maybe good food comes and goes as you go through your your life, you know, eating in various places. So it’s sort of like your, I wouldn’t necessarily give the impression that an awakened person or an enlightened person isn’t going to have profound experiences still, that come and go. It’s just that they realize that those things are transitory and there’s a ground that they rest in. That is that’s the real significant thing.
Chadwick Johnson: Well, okay, so What I’ll say is like, I think that the universe knows what it’s doing. And that sometimes the universe can cause we, we, as we call them spiritual experiences, but the universe will our will reveal, you know, just reveal those experiences make a very everyday ordinary experience more profound. Or like i Yesterday, for example, I was where I was I, somewhere looking at a tree. Oh, I was I drive Uber, by the way, and I went into Walgreens, it was late at night. So I got a five hour energy. And I was standing outside of Walgreens, and I took a five hour energy. And it was so quiet. I mean, it was a quiet, the cars were there. But it was quiet in my in within, I wasn’t thinking a lot. And I was looking at this tree. And I just stared at the tree. And it was just, you know, I could say it was amazing. You know, it was just like, the tree was just like, came alive. It was just standing there. And I was sober. And I was just looking at this tree. And then I just carried on when got in the car and started driving. But that in itself was like, I guess you could say that was experienced real experience. Yeah, that’s not like, early on when. I’ll give you an example of experience to experience I had earlier on, okay, okay, so I’m sitting by the river one day, and it’s kind of, it’s kind of missing a little bit. And, you know, I would go through phases where I would be trying out, try, I’d be trying to get back to the stillness. So I’d be sitting by the river, and I’ll be trying to make my mind they’ll still. And then what happened was, when I finally came to this place of complete stillness, it was the rain stopped. And I noticed, and I started looking around and my mind started going, and then it will start raining again. And I was looking around, I was like, Oh, my God, it’s raining. I was like, let’s see if I could do it again. And then I would be struggling, struggling and then all sudden, I fall right back into the bliss. And then the rain was stop.
Rick Archer: So you thought you were controlling the rain or something?
Chadwick Johnson: Well, I think that at all. I didn’t think I was controlling the rain. Well, maybe I did think that I don’t know, all I can say is that that happened like two or three or four, maybe three times to where it was obvious, like, wow,
Rick Archer: it may have been I mean, if Jesus can can calm those seas, you know, why not?
Chadwick Johnson: It really doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter if it really had I don’t even know if that was a dream. It didn’t really happen or did it not? It doesn’t even matter. But for some reason, back then I needed that type of experience. Now, I’m not in that phase of seeking. Right now. I’m not trying to, I don’t need the universe to prove itself right to me, you know. So I think the spiritual experiences are more sober, they’re just more subtle, and just just different. I can’t say no spiritual experiences, I just think that it’s just a different type of, and then also, even the experiential experiences that I had, I had no idea what they would be like, before they came. So that still holds true today, there may be a spiritual experience that I’m experienced tomorrow or coming up that I never have experienced. So definitely not asked like that.
Rick Archer: Okay, hey, just a little something that has nothing to do with this interview. But since you mentioned five hour energy, people listening might want to check this out. It’s there’s a documentary on YouTube called billions in change. And it’s by the guy who invented five hour energy. And he found the found himself all of a sudden, the multi billionaire and he thought, what am I going to do with all this money? So he set up this whole workshop, this thing in Michigan, where he is like a think tank where they invent all kinds of amazing things to help the world like being able to purify water with these machines that they can ship all over to these little villages and things that help health and all kinds of stuff. So whatever karma he’s getting by selling this crap and having people drink it, he’s offset it by really good stuff.
Absolutely. You know, especially, you know, I Uber 2:30 In the morning, you know, sometimes you need it. I need a little boost.
Rick Archer: Yeah. Well, I hope you pass the bar exams and have an easier ride in that regard.
Chadwick Johnson: Exactly, exactly. I will.
Rick Archer: Here’s a question that came in from Paul in Brisbane, Australia. He asks, when an awakening happened And then a teaching comes from that awakening, would that teaching, in fact, have brought on that awakening before the moment of grace? That is, with the teachers own teaching have awakened them? This is my, this is my frustration when listening to spiritual teachers who are just as lost as we are before their moment of clarity. Do you understand the question? I’m not entirely sure that I do, but maybe you got something out of it?
Chadwick Johnson: Um, well, what I can say to that is that, you know, for those on a spiritual journey, we’re very confused about cause and effect. And the, we don’t really understand how time works, the mind can’t understand the sets the idea or the phenomenon of time moving from past, like, right now we’re in the present, but time is moving forward, you know, and that’s very confusing. And it’s really confusing when it comes to the conversation of when someone is enlightened, or, you know, because now you’re talking about timelessness, in the same language or the same conversation that you’re talking about time bound events, and it just doesn’t work.
Rick Archer: In other words, it’s not so linear as we might think.
Chadwick Johnson: It’s absolutely absolutely all everything is already I mean, not I’m not saying I don’t want to say everything is already predestined, because that’s also time bound language, all I’m saying is that the now unfolds in a way that we can’t understand. And, you know, spiritual teachers may be completely trying to brainwash you. And something that they say, causes us to have an awakening, it doesn’t matter. You can hear it from a spiritual teacher, or you can hear from a cartoon or a commercial. It’s not, once once the shift happens, or once you fall into that instantaneous moment of stillness, then the cause and effect part of it, who told you or who said it, or when it happened, or all that it just becomes meaningless, it loses all its meaning, everything becomes silent, and neutral. And I don’t know if that completely answered the question. But spiritual teachers are very human, you know, and, you know, every the most profound spiritual teacher that you’ve read about for centuries, you know, it’s misleading. And in a way, every, every spiritual teacher is misleading the people, because we don’t, you don’t have the words to express what you’re trying to convey. There’s no words to do it. So we’re just all kind of just talking. And hopefully, at some point, you know, some, somebody somewhere, here’s something that, you know, that gives them that aha moment. And then also like, then the person has the aha moment. They sit in that bliss. And then once their ego kicks back in, they give that teacher credit for saying it, you know, what I mean? As opposed to just knowing that grace, there’s a, there’s a bigger picture here, it’s not the story of Enlightenment doesn’t have individuals. You know, the story of Enlightenment is not an individual story. It’s a holistic, all at once happening, that is, now if you’re looking in your story to find it, then it will forever evade your your, you know, you will never be able to draft it because you’re looking in a story or in a person. I mean, that’s not necessarily true, either. Because I hear all stories of people who have spiritual teachers and teachers who’ve, you know, took them from one phase to another, you know, but from my experience, you know, there is definitely the ultimate Enlightenment or the what we’re ultimately seeking has nothing to do with others, or farm or concepts or stories, you know, so we have to be able to take our attention away from all teachers. It’s kind of like, you know, a Uh, like watching video, you’re watching videos, you’re hooked on the video because that’s your, it’s like your pacifier, you know, or books, it’s like a pacifier. And some people just want to stay on the pacifier, they never want to, they never want to put the pacifier down and just, you know, go into the unknown without anybody guiding. And I think that is the only way no one can hold your hand all the way home.
Rick Archer: Yeah, I mean, I have a good friend who used to be with Om Shanti a whole lot, in fact, a number of friends. But a certain point, he said to me, you know, you really don’t need to come here anymore. And it’s not like he didn’t like her, or, you know, she was she did anything wrong. It’s like, you know, hey, you tend to take off the training wheels. But you know, but she gives tremendous credit to the time she spent with him. So there’s a time I would say no to everything, there is a season Turn, turn, turn, you know, there’s a time for being a spiritual teacher, there may be a time for leaving a spiritual teacher, and you can’t make it to a general rule that applies equally to everyone always.
Chadwick Johnson: That’s very true. The only rule that I think applies to everyone, always is that a spiritual teacher cannot cannot hold your hand all the way home.
Rick Archer: Right.
Chadwick Johnson: Right? It’s something it’s like,
Rick Archer: They can’t do it for you. Also, no way looking at it. It’s like, you know, you got to sort of pay your own dues and do your own work.
Chadwick Johnson: well, yeah, you have to do your own work and you have to turn instead of looking for wisdom outside of you. At some point, you have to trust the wisdom Ness within. Because that was their wisdom within is what that was all about that best asked the questions.
Rick Archer: Yeah. So Paul from Brisbane, if we didn’t answer your question, if, if Chad didn’t answer your question, feel free to ask a follow up be fine. But hopefully we got it. Okay, so what shall we talk about? Now? I don’t have a question in my mind, right this minute, but um, What haven’t we talked about that you’d like to, you’d like to say,
Chadwick Johnson: um, you know, what I think I wouldn’t mind talking about a little bit. It’s just kind of the, you know, house, the idea of using other like, my, my, one of my hobbies, your hobbies to give these interviews, my hobby is to come up with creative ways to talk about to demystify mysticism in a way, you know,
Rick Archer: yeah, you’re good at that, by the way, I love the metaphors that you come up with, and the little practical examples from daily life and all the illustrate points. I’ve heard you do that a number of times, and I think I think it’s really nice.
Chadwick Johnson: Yeah, that’s a big hobby of mine. And I think, I think younger, the younger generation are less conditioned. So it seems like sometimes they’re more open to, like, I’ll go speak at at the college. So college students, and like, right there in class, you know, you’ll have so many I mean, you have, people will be having experiences, right in class, and I’m definitely presenting it in a, you know, motivational presentation type, an A type way. But they’re having these experiences right there in class, because they’re just kind of, like, open to it, you know, and they don’t have any preconceived, you know, I guess, barriers. And I’m sure they fall right back into their normal routine, possibly, you know, but they’re definitely open to it, you know,
Rick Archer: Oh yeah. These things leave a residue. I mean, you have these, any kind of experience like that, and it leaves an impression. I mean, you know, you might remember some experiences you had when you were a little kid, so it’s any little exposure is good.
Chadwick Johnson: Yeah. And again, it helps me to find the more different the, the more of a ride, the wider variety of ways that I have to articulate it also helps clarify my own. I guess, clarify my own seeing in a way. Not that. I mean, I can always use more. Like I said, my I’m very I’m immature in a way. I’m very immature spiritually. And I say that because, you know, 2009 Whenever I read that book, it’s not that long was not that long ago. I so and then. So my conditioning has not completely caught up with my understanding or my knowing, you know.
Rick Archer: I mean, I’ve been doing this stuff since 1968. And I feel like I’m very immature spiritually, you know, there’s, there’s, I mean, if you want to compare yourself with people there, there are always people who are lightyears beyond in terms of their spiritual maturity. So, as Adyashanti always put it, you know, I feel like I’m always a beginner.
Chadwick Johnson: Yeah, and that’s the best way to be because it’s like, somebody who I look at it, like, somebody who only likes one type of music, you know, it’s like, well, that’s cool if that type of music is on. But what if you’re the type of person that likes all music? Yeah. Now that’s a nice life to live. And I feel like with me staying a baby in a sense, in the spiritual world, there’s infinite unfolding, there’s infinite learning, that are are just, yeah, there’s infinite learning, or reconditioning, like I get to see the evolution, I guess, of how my ego, my ego identification matures more, you know, and does, you know, I guess, less, less self inflicted suffering, or? No, because sometimes I suffer and, you know, it’s just a part of it. I don’t know that. I don’t know that I want anything to change. But I do feel like, there’s, I still feel like a baby. Like, I’m still maturing,
Rick Archer: I think that might be what beginner they mean by beginner’s mind. And in Zen, you know that it’s actually a good thing to always have that attitude of only being a beginner. It’s funny, you use that music example, because I remember hearing Paul McCartney say, one time and you know, he’s probably one of the greatest musicians of our age, but he just likes all kinds of music. And he actually specifically mentioned rap and heavy metal, everything, he just exposes himself to the whole gamut. And it’s interesting, because, you know, I’ll do particular interview like last two weeks ago, I did one with this woman who’s psychic and a channeler. And she got a certain amount of negative reaction. It’s like, why, you know, boy, BatGap has reached a new low, why are you interviewing somebody like this? If people were leaving comments like that? And my attitude is that there, for some people, that can be huge. I mean, they can it can make them realize that there’s not there’s more to life than just this physical dimension, you know, so that can be the perfect teaching for somebody, it’s not necessarily the universal teaching for everybody. But look at the way God designs creation, there’s just huge variety. And, you know, that and different strokes for different folks is Sly and the Family Stone once sang.
Chadwick Johnson: Absolutely. And I think that I was a huge part of my awakening is from my ex, from my sense of, of things I would, you know,
Rick Archer: My wife just passed me a note. She wanted me to add that most of the feedback from that for that woman was very positive. But there are a few people who are griping about it. And, you know, saying that it was off topic or something. I just feel like spirituality is much broader and more diverse than some people would like to believe that people get a little bit fundamentalist fundamentalist in insisting that it has to be this particular way and no other, you know?
Chadwick Johnson: exactly, and that’s just as, you know, it’s like, people can’t see their own. Like, for example, let me give you an example. When you’re, I had a situation where my wife and the neighbor, a good friend of her, they were having a discussion about someone else. And in my head, I was saying, you know, why are you judging them? Why are you judging that person? That person is who they are? Why are you judging them? Right? And then, but I didn’t say anything. I didn’t speak up on it. You know, I just kind of was in my head thinking you’re judging them. Right? And then, obviously, you know, but before I could get to my back to my office, I kind of realized that I was judging my wife and her friend. Yes, like, it’s all it’s like, you have to be very open to what you can learn from everything. Like I for a while, I was very turned off from Christianity. You know, I felt like really what I realized that I was turned off from a lot of Christians and the teaching of Christianity, but even that isn’t, this is not you know, So there’s no justification for that. It’s like, there’s a lot of Christians that are doing a lot of very good, you know, valuable work. And we should be very important. You know, see what we can learn from Christians. So we can learn from these different teachings even like, well, you know, I remember when I was younger, if someone was doing voodoo, and that was definitely from the devil, you know, if you’re a voodoo, you know, doing voodoo. But then when I was going through my spiritual awakening, I was free. I wasn’t scared of exploring anything. And I remember watching a lady talk about Votto, and I was like, man, Voodoo. Let me see what she’s saying. And she was really making a lot of sense, you know, she was speaking, I don’t remember. I mean, I don’t remember specifically. But I remember thinking, wow, I would have never even listened to her if I was, you know, already saying that she was from the devil. So you can learn, you know, God is in control. You know,
Rick Archer: Just as you were saying that an email came in from somebody saying that Willie Nelson said that Frank Sinatra was his mentor, you know, I mean, so if we get outside our genre, or our comfort zone, you’re more probably more likely to learn something new than if you just stay in your niche?
Chadwick Johnson: Absolutely, absolutely. You need to be actually, that’s, that’s exactly what we need to do. We need to be outside of our comfort zone. Which another way to say that is, we need to be exposed to our own conditioning. Yeah. You know, like, our own conditioning is very, like Sly and sneaky is it can hide itself very well. And, you know, you know, being or being able to recognize your own conditioning is like one of the major components of being able to say, or to be an awakening, you know, so the awakening process, you know,
Rick Archer: is there any chance that you’d actually be able to do a rap thing during this interview? Or do you need preparation or music? Or?
Chadwick Johnson: Um, no, I mean, I always have something that I could do. So, let me see.
Rick Archer: I guess you call it hip hop? Or is that animus with rap? Or is it better to say hip hop?
Chadwick Johnson: I don’t know. I, I guess it depends on the person you’re talking to you i Some people want to segregate them and other people are just like, it’s all good for me. For me. It doesn’t matter, I just, you know, I just make rhymes and I try to make them in a way that is, you know, will, you know, not only be respected in the hip hop community for the complexity or for the authenticity of the lyrics, but also that is bringing some type of consciousness along with it. So but yeah, I could share something. Let me think. On the one hand, I’m over the hill. On the other hand, my cup runneth over with skill. And I’m just trying to do Jehovah’s will let the real know that it’s real. This is self therapy. And I’m therapists, I’m one with the same intelligence that gave me this inheritance. So believe I’m gonna cherish this I feel like a sage living in the Age of Aquarius now. I’m trying to free the slaves like Harry and now and lyrics rain on them, like the various clouds. You are now rocking with the best sending you the opposite of stress, unconditional love, knowledge and self confidence and rest. The only way not to get depressed. So know this. You exist not just in the flesh. It’s my hypothesis. The only option is to just give love. And there I go with that again. It must be all that madness, then.
Rick Archer: That’s great.
Chadwick Johnson: Thank you.
Rick Archer: You didn’t just make that up. Did you
Chadwick Johnson: know No, no, no. No,
Rick Archer: that was really impressive.
Chadwick Johnson: I should say, yeah. No, I wrote that down. For sure. I took some thought time.
Rick Archer: That’s great. And you actually have a YouTube channel, don’t you? Where you have a bunch of your your hip hop music?
Chadwick Johnson: Yeah, I do. I I started that back, actually, while I was in law school. I started rapping when I was probably 30, 32 years old, you know? And I just started putting up videos and the feedback started coming in positive feedback. And, you know, I just kept putting them out, putting them out until I had that spiritual awakening appeared on everybody.
Rick Archer: Yeah. So if you’d like, I’ll put a link to that on your BatGap page as well as to your regular website. Stuff.
Chadwick Johnson: That’ll work. That’ll work. That’d be good. Yeah, I still, I still do a little writing here. And there. It’s not as consistent as I was before. But I only have one topic. Now, you know?
Rick Archer: You’re a one-trick pony.
Chadwick Johnson: Yeah, what’s your pony now. Yeah,
Rick Archer: Well I mean, you could actually create a whole genre of spiritual rap, spiritual hip hop, I suppose there is that sort of, but you could kind of like, make a greater emphasis on it, specialize in it.
Chadwick Johnson: You know, at this, at this point, I’m, like, open to whatever happens, like I had to really be the process of writing. Hip Hop music is, I guess, like any other art, you have to, I have to really focus on what I’m doing. And it’s, it’s not like a, you know, a quick thing. So
Rick Archer: You have to kind of get that momentum going. And
Chadwick Johnson: yeah, exactly. I have to, especially if I haven’t done in a while, you know, then I have to dust off the cobwebs. And it takes so much effort to just create this one little piece of, you know, I just don’t I don’t know. But I like doing it every now and then.
Rick Archer: That’s great.
Chadwick Johnson: Yeah.
Rick Archer: All right. So I sort of feel like we’re kind of wrapping up here. Is there anything else that comes to mind that you’d like to tell people? I have the chance?
Chadwick Johnson: I’m not, I don’t have anything? Not really. I just, you know, yeah, I just hope, you know, I don’t know, there’s different people, people watch these for different reasons, right? Everybody’s in a different phase. I remember when I used to watch, you know, I was kind of, you know, just trying to find something that could help speed up my, you know, my Enlightenment basically, or speed up the process of feeling like I had to seek so, you know, so hard. And, you know, I just would, you know, I just hope that whoever’s watching, you know, got whatever they are looking for, but also, I want to encourage everyone to, you know, go within, you know, be still, the silence can tell you more than any interview or any book, The silence is the, it’s so counterintuitive to listen to the silence. And, you know, it’s just seems like there’s nothing there. So why would you go there, you know, and it’s like, sitting in the stillness, sometimes it’s like, staring at the sun, you know, you know, just so bright, sometimes you have to look away, but I’ll just encourage throughout what I would encourage people to just stay, you know, stay and don’t, you know, and try to try to, you know, be objective, you know, as you’re talking to yourself, or you could feel yourself, you could feel a sense of trying to be still or you feel yourself trying to be more enlightened, you know, watch, watch all that movement, because it’s that it’s the watching of, of that movement, and that, you know, watch yourself, you know, wash your ego, like, that’s a very subtle arrogance, that kind of flies under the radar, it’s very arrogant to think that you could figure Enlightenment out, you know, but it’s something that we all go through. So I would say, you know, watch that arrogance, notice how the mind or the ego thinks that it’s going to eventually figure this out one day, you know, and don’t judge it. I mean, you know, or if you do judge it, notice the judging, you know, and then at some point, it’s like, you know, remember those posters used to stare at, you could stare at him for a long time, it just looks like a bunch of colors. And then if you stare at it for a while, you know, eventually the 3d image would appear. And I think, you know, sometimes, it’s like that, you know, you kind of just got to sit and just, you know, constantly get in the habit of paying attention to what your mind is up to, you know, and it kind of that activity in itself, kind of, you know, does the trick and there the effort will kind of subside, and the sense of the sense of thinking that you get figure it out, kind of subsides and it’s kind of like a next thing you know, you’re, you know, you’re no longer seeking You know, and, you know, I think that’s the, you know, the biggest take home, I would say, to take out of this interview, you know, give up, you know, give up, you know, it won’t happen. You give up, allow your ego to continue on the journey. But you give up, you know, you can’t do it.
Rick Archer: Yeah. And there’s, there’s a sort of a subtlety to that too, because it can, it can be misinterpreted to me and like, oh, well might as well just sit in the couch and drink beer and watch television. But one can still be very much engaged in spiritual pursuit. But without the effort, you know, that it can be more of a surrender than a than an individual, and no willful force force based kind of effort. And that’s when you really get somewhere, I think, is, is when you well, is that bumper sticker let go and let God you know,
Chadwick Johnson: yeah, and I think also, that, you know, that willful, forceful effort you spoke about is very important as well,
Rick Archer: it’s perhaps at a stage,
Chadwick Johnson: yeah, at a stage, you know, you have to, you have to, you have to realize that, if you’re going to, that seeking is going to happen to you try not to seek is, you know, it’s probably pretty useless, because the ego wants to know, and it thinks it’s gonna figure it out, you know, so I would say, you know, if you could boil it down to one word, it would be notice, just notice, because there’s a lot going on, on your behalf. And as you, you know, there’s a lot happening, as though it is you and you are going along with it as though it is you and a silent watching of that will reveal that there is that it’s just, there’s no, there’s no one in there. There’s no individual, there’s no person in there. And there’s just a sense, there’s just a sense of someone being in there. And that’s not a bad thing or a good thing. But to notice that, you know, not not because someone told you because people are going to try to point you there by using different words and different books and whatever. But for you to pay attention. And slowly but surely notice that not to, you know, I’m not I would say don’t expect that aha moment, but you can’t choose whether or not you’re going to expect that aha moment, just notice that you’re expecting that aha moment. You know, it’s like, watching your own thoughts, objectively, is a practice is something that you have to practice and then it becomes self, it becomes second nature. And then you you realize, you know, beyond the shadow of a doubt, like, like Eckhart Tolle says that you are not your thinking, you could swallow that. And everything else will be kind of like the game, you know, you just play along with it, you know?
Rick Archer: It’s good. Maybe another note we could end on is it? Well, we both said earlier that, you know, in a sense, we’re all beginners. And, and so I always have a bone to pick with these people that say, well, you’re just, I’m done. And everybody else should just be done. And all that because you’re never done. I mean, you may have a sense of contentment, and you’re resting in that, in that sense of contentment. And, but there’s no end to discovery and kind of refinement of clarity and understanding and so on. I’m just, I’ve just never met anyone who might feel is done in that sense.
Chadwick Johnson: And why would you want to be done? What does that what does that mean? You know? Anyone who claims to be done is so in their ego is like, you know, it’s just like, how can how can you be done? And then at the same time, not, and there be the unknown, like, because the unknown is so vast, there’s no way you could claim to be done. Now, I could say that there’s certain things that could be over you could be past certain struggles, you know, in that sense, yeah, you’re done. But I am. As long as I’m experienced by experiencing life through this, what we call a body. I look forward to the you know, this To the unknown of what’s going to happen as far as my awareness and my, you know, you know, I think what it is, is like people are looking for that person who is so enlightened, that they could, uh, you know, you know, follow, you know, and that is like a rock in the bush, you know, you throw a rock in the bush, if you want somebody to, they’re looking for you, and they want it in their tasty, you throw a rock over there, and they will run over there. And I think that looking for a spiritual teacher trying to find that ultimately, enlightened person is definitely a rock in the bush, there are people who resonate with people more than others, but the universal bring that person to you into your life, you know, a lot of this is just I, you know, honestly, a lot of this kind of like, filler, all the it’s just filler. Because, you know, we use all these different concepts and words to talk about something that is so simple, I’ve moved it to Mooji puts it like this, and I’m gonna, I’m gonna definitely butcher this. But he says, you know, somebody’s asking him how to get home. And he’s like you while you’re here and even help? He’s like, No, I’m sorry. I really want to know, like, how do I get all the way home, I want to be home home. And then you say, Okay, well, since they want to go on a journey, you send them up, go down to the street, and then you turn right. And then you go down a couple blocks, and you turn right and you turn, you know, and then you turn right and you come right, and you give them these, this, this path. So then you say, once you follow that path, and then you arrive back home, and they’re like, perfect, thank you. And then they set off on a journey. And I think that’s what the directions that we give in that analogy is a lot like all these books, in interviews in the spiritual teaching that we do, you know, you know, in the, during, everybody’s on their own journey, and in the course of your journey, it may seem so important enough at the time, but at some point it, you look back, you’re like, Oh, that was just, you know, that was just, you know, I’m already at I’m back where I was here where I was looking for, you know, this is what I was always trying to find, all I had to do is just when you stop seeking, you’re enlightened. When you stop seeking, you’re lightened. And that’s why I say people who are not seeking people who are like, for example, my father in law, he, he’s a, he’s a Christian, and he’s, you know, he’s over. He’s up in administration, and he’s very honest, man. And he’s, you know, he lives the life that, you know, I get to see him in his underwear, you know, I’ve seen him behind closed doors, and he is very consistent in what he does. And in my eyes, he’s as enlightened as you get, you know, I mean, you can’t get any more enlightened than that. And he’ll probably look at this video, and, you know, maybe he won’t, and, or if you talk to him about non duality, he’ll be like, you know, I’ll just pray for you, you know, but, um, who could be more enlightened, I can’t definitely can’t say that I’m more enlightened than that guy. You know. It’s just like, everybody is seeking the we have this idea of what Enlightenment means. And the ego will have you going after what that idea is. And if you knew ahead of time, what it was, maybe you wouldn’t seek so hard. Yeah. Yeah,
Rick Archer: There’s a great quote from TS Eliot, he said, We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.
Chadwick Johnson: Absolutely, absolutely. And then that’s where experiencing really begins, you know, and I think that’s why people want Enlightenment so bad, you know, because the end when they hear stuff like that, they’re like, the ego kind of the imagination kind of gives them a sense of what that must be like, you know, and they’re like, Well, what I’m at where I’m at right now is not that so I have to go get it. You know, and I mean, it makes sense to start and you know, it makes sense. I did the same thing, but all you know, you want to add from as a spiritual teacher, you want to figure out a creative way to help them say, Oh, really, this is it? Oh, well, then I could just carry on with life. Because that’s ultimately what happened after I did all the crying, and all the seeking, and all the spiritual experiences, and all the, you know, journeys and videos and books and all that, ultimately, I arrived at this sober place of, you know, quiet security where I could now just enjoy all of the variety of life without looking through the lens of you know, that egoic sense of lack or not being not good enough, or whatever, you know,
Rick Archer: yeah. But, you know, you went through all that stuff. And in a way, you kind of arrived back to where you started, but you’re a very different person now than you were. And so it’s not like all that stuff amounted to a big waste of time, you know, you’ve been transformed. So it really had its value.
Chadwick Johnson: So that was
Rick Archer: You’re not having panic attacks, at least.
Chadwick Johnson: Oh, now that that’s for sure. You know, that’s for sure. And also, I love my wife, my wife loves me back,
Rick Archer: life has been really enriched,
Chadwick Johnson: it’s been really enrich, you know, but, you know, if you take away, it’s like, someone who is just slapping them. So if you just slap yourself over and over again, when you stop slapping yourself, it’s gonna feel really good, you know, it’s gonna be like, you know, really good. And I think that’s just kind of how I was with the panic attacks and the egoic identification, trying to make Chad, this chair person into something. Once that subsided, I once I realized that that was just all a figment of my imagination. 100% I mean, not holding back just a little bit, so that I could still communicate with others or to have about wife and my kids like to realize that even that is a part of my imagination. I have to my kids have to participate, you have to participate. My wife has to participate in this dream of bodies. Otherwise, if we all got still, and we say, okay, let’s not pay attention to our roles, let’s just be here now. And let a silence let silence be here. And that all roles and all conditioning fall away. And then, I think, you realize that there’s no one, there’s no person here. The person only appears when I start engaging in my egoic mind movements. But when I’m not engaged in that, when my attention is not on my mind movement, there’s no one in here. There’s just spirit, there’s just this. And if, you know, it’s hard for the ego to wrap his mind around that everybody that you see, is constantly thinking. So we’ve been so submerged in this dream, or in the, in the thinking that we forget that there’s no such thing as not being or not participating. And then the ego tells you well, then if you’re not participating them, you know, that means you don’t love your family, or you, you know, you know, when you’re not participating, my wife is not special. When I’m not participating, no one is special, there’s no special to my kid, one kid, my son is not any more special than anyone else’s son, I have to participate in this egoic dream in order for me to say, you know that that kid is really good basketball, and he’s going to be a superstar, and I’m not really as concerned about your kid becoming a superstar, you know, and to play in that dream. And to realize, while you’re in the dream, while while you’re playing in the dream that, you know, it’s still a dream, it doesn’t make it any more real, but you could play in it, and it doesn’t disappear. Just because it’s not real doesn’t mean it’s not here for you’re experiencing and you can’t get the experience of love and the experience of competition and all these different and, and stress and fear and joy and all the different tastes of experiencing that comes with participating in the dream. But at the same time, just having some like this background, knowing this understanding or this sense that you know, it’s still kind of a dream.
Rick Archer: yeah, it says in the Bhagavad Gita established in yoga perform action. So it doesn’t say just sit and be in being, it says, Being being there, which is yoga, but perform action. And Lord Krishna, who is supposed to be an avatar of God, you know, and in that book says, what would happen to these worlds, if I didn’t constantly engage in action, while remaining in my own nature? You know, so it’s like, both ends, you know, it’s not, it’s not just the silence or just the activity, but the integration of the two together, that makes life much more than it otherwise would be.
Chadwick Johnson: I say, like, we are so much a part of nature, that, just like, if you just sit still, like move on nature, everything will move on. If it just sit still, and just look around you as you as if you get, you know, take your awareness outside of your body and just look, it will continue to move on, well, even within yourself, you could look at your own body and your own thoughts and your own experiences. As a part of that movement, it’s just going to continue to do. And for a long time, I’ve struggled with Mooji, I remember the first time I heard Mooji, say, You are not the doer of your actions. And I just set that comment aside, I was like, Mooji is good, but he don’t know what he’s talking about. Right there, you know, really good, you know, but that he’s a little off on that, you know, and I couldn’t swallow that for a long time. But I wasn’t. That’s not a that’s not an intellectual. That’s not, that’s not, he’s not speaking to my ego, when he said that. He’s pointing to something that’s beyond my ego. And I can’t begin to understand what he’s talking about until I sit still, or not even sit still, like you said, it’s just about paying attention from the place of stillness to all of the movement that’s carrying on. And don’t separate yourself from that movement. Don’t separate your own thought from all the rest from the, the leaf blowing in the wind, your thought is just much movement is movement. Stillness is stillness. If it’s not stillness, then it’s movement. And it’s like zeros and one. If you’re zero, then everything else is one, you know, and being able to realize that you are zero, even while you’re doing while you’re working. Yeah, or while you’re washing dishes, or whatever,
Rick Archer: Sure if you know, yourself is that stillness, then you have the very real sense that you are not the doer, because stillness doesn’t do stillness is still and yet doing goes on. So who’s doing the doing, you know, what’s doing it? There’s there are explanations for that. But that’s, that’s a real experience.
Chadwick Johnson: Right. And you don’t have to believe it. You know, it’s not a belief. It’s not a belief thing you can disbelieve it. In fact, in fact, the ego doesn’t believe it. An ego can’t believe it. It’s unbelievable. But it’s not for the belief system. And, I mean, you could watch disbelief and silence. You know, I could not or I could be at, you know, I could be adamant against Donald Trump, like in politics, like, he is not a good president. You know, I could watch my ego saying that and maybe even make an argument to someone who’s an advocate of Donald Trump, you know, but in the meantime, I see the iWatch. I’m watching myself, objectively, I don’t really have a stake in that argument. I just allow my ego to argue and now the catch to it. No, but I do believe that he’s not a good president. He’s not he’s not presidential. But you know, I don’t know, you know, it’ll, whatever happens happens.
Rick Archer: Jimmy Fallon had a great thing on last night, which people can find on YouTube, where we had these little kids that were pretending that they were talking like Donald Trump, you know, we are we’re gonna build a wall and it’s gonna be the best wall and Mexico is gonna pay for it. For four or five year olds, it’s very funny. Check it out on YouTube.
Chadwick Johnson: I’m just I’m pretty impressed with your invitation. You know, just adding it being adamant about anything, is just an opportunity to see yourself objectively, like anything you feel strongly about is a perfect opportunity to watch how any of especially even about what you believe about Advaita or non duality or or, you know, our other religions or, you know, maybe I was at, you know, I was reading when I was going through my spiritual awakening, I went through my what is that phase? Call, I might have creative visualization. Yeah, I went through that phase when I was creating, you know, and it really threw me into a world when of confusion, you know, because it didn’t line up with what I was my internal truth, you know, trying to make something manifest, trying to create something in a certain way, you know, I was just like that kid, you know, and then I’ll try it and not fall into it. And then I’d be like, that doesn’t, I’m confused. It was just that caused a lot of confusion, you know, and then I got really antagonistic against it, you know, you know, in my head, I was just adding it, like creative visualization, that is not the way to spiritual awakening that is, that is like, you know, it’s basically a distraction is brainwashing in a way, you know, it’s like, the secret as another one. It’s like, why, you know, these people who are these are people who are capitalizing off of people who are seeking, you know, truce trying to come to a true spiritual awakening. And these people out here are capitalizing on that their vulnerability by distracting them with trying to manifest something when they should be
Rick Archer: Trivializing. And but yeah, I mean, the key thing here, if we want to quote another Bible, verses, Seek ye first the kingdom of heaven, all else shall be added unto thee. That’s the part that the secret leaves out is actually gets see ye the Kingdom of Heaven get establish there, and then things will be added unto you. But they’ll, they’ll, they won’t necessarily be pearl necklaces, and Mercedes, there’ll be the things you actually need, they’ll come more easily, if you’re grounded in that deep state.
Chadwick Johnson: Yeah, and the thing is, if you have that, if you have that Bible verse, and why do you need any other Bible verse? Why do you need any other saying, also, another one is Be still and know that I am God, you know, it’s like, okay, well, that pretty much sums it up, you know, everything else is like directions around the corner back to home, you know, you know, just be still are seeking first the kingdom of God. And then, you know, but, you know, I mean, I said that to say, Now, I’m not even I don’t even I’m not adding it gets creative visualization, you know, you know,
Rick Archer: it’s a tool.
Chadwick Johnson: It’s a tool. Yes, yes, it’s a tool. And who am I to, you know, if someone’s into that, you know, obviously, you know, is how somebody gets here. So it’s from God.
Rick Archer: Also, a lot of these things can be stages for people, like, they might do that for a while. And then after a while, they might get kind of dissatisfied and think, Well, that was interesting. But what what’s next, what more is there? You know, could there be a deeper teaching, and they might not have even asked that question if they hadn’t gone through the creative visualization thing?
Chadwick Johnson: Yeah, I mean, I think that’s what happened with me, it’s like, I was just trying to gobble up everything, everything, any remote, remotely, you know, related to spirituality. And I had to see that, you know, there was a lot, there’s a lot of, I guess, for lack of a better word, there’s just a lot of distractions out there. But like you said, how, how would you have come to the conclusion that everything, what the conclusion I came to, ultimately, and this I attributed a lot to read in A Course of Miracles over and over again, is that if you, if every all concepts were math, and you added them all up, they would all lead to a beyond concepts to Enlightenment, you have to be able to, you know, you have to read law, and you have to read, you know, whatever you’re into, if you’re into math, then go all the way into math, learn the deepest math, and if you keep going, eventually that will probably lead you to the same thing that if you go if you read a course, in miracles over and over again, and all I mean, it’s the combination of all these together and this that intense seeking, that, you know, you start to get a bird’s eye view of all of the concepts and then you can set all concepts aside, you know, like, they all add up to truth basically.
Rick Archer: Yeah, that’s interesting, kind of as you said that the image came to mind that you know, all spokes on the wheel lead to the hub. You take any spoke follow it down to get to the hub
Chadwick Johnson: Yeah, if you do it with any any spoke you take with honesty, and humility. Well, I guess it’s like it seems to draw you to are like another great analogy that Mooji says and Is that you know, it’s like a bathtub. And you know, after you get out of Bath, and it’s has the debris from your dirty self in there. And the dirt right next to the hole is just going down fast. Those are people who are getting sucked in. And but the dirt back in the back of the back bathtub, it kind of seems like it’s just kind of floating there, but, but it’s slowly but surely making his way down that into that hole, you know. And if you’re here, if you’re in the back of the bathtub, the natural tendency is I guess, to try to be in that hose closer to that hole. And I think it’s just kind of happening. And in the meantime, you’ll seek and try to do everything you can to make it happen faster. But it’s not necessary. If you do it, you do it. If you don’t you don’t you’re getting pulled toward the whole, whether you want to or not. And I think I that is you cannot fully let go and feel like oh, I I’m done seeking until you come to the realization that something else is doing this. Yeah, as long as you’re depending on your own ego are your own abilities, then you’re going to be you know, it’s just gonna see it’s gonna, that has to wear itself out.
Rick Archer: Yeah. And when you come to that realization, then it’s like, Let Thy will be done. You know, here I am. What would you like to do with me?
Chadwick Johnson: I will be done. Whatever it is, you know, and I’m at your service. I’m at, I’m at your service. And and by the way, it’s like I tell the story. I told the story assassin one night, it’s like, one of my daughters. When she was little, whenever I would leave the house, she would cry like No, Daddy, I want to go don’t leave, don’t leave. And I’d be like, Honey, I have to go whatever it is I have to go you know. So I give her a kiss. And I’d give it to her mom and she cried, and then I leave, right. And then my other daughter. You know, she would do exactly the opposite. Like when it was time for me to go hunting, I gotta go to work. She’d go find my keys, here’s that. Here’s your keys, you know? And then I say, Oh, thank you. Hi, yeah, give her the kiss, give her a kiss and head up. There. They’re two different approaches. But ultimately, the same thing happened. I had to go, you know what I mean? So you could be the person who’s fighting and scratching and saying no, don’t leave, or you could just be the type that says, okay, thy will be done, you know? Because they will. It’s going to be done. Regardless, you know, Thy Will is going to be done, you know, and that is a major. That is a major aha moment, like, oh, okay, well, I guess it doesn’t make any sense to me do all this resisting. And it’s also like, Okay, well, you take what you get, you get what you get, and it’s not going to always be pleasant. It’s not going to always be happy times or, you know, you just get what you get, you know, yeah.
Rick Archer: Yeah. Byron Katie is always fond of saying that, you know, she fight against reality, you’re always gonna lose, you know,
Chadwick Johnson: you’re always gonna lose, you’re always gonna lose. And five, same. Same is true for fighting against stress, or fighting against, you know, any other emotion that you are a psychological state that you don’t want. You don’t if you fight against it, you know, you can fight against it, but you’re going to experience these things, you know, and it’s just a part of it.
Rick Archer: You didn’t take another five hour energy this morning, did you?
Chadwick Johnson: you know actually, I’m gonna take a nap. I’m gonna take a good nap after this interview,
Rick Archer: You’re doing pretty good for somebody who was up till God knows how late driving an Uber car.
Chadwick Johnson: Yeah, I was excited, all excited to talk to you. Really, it was like, you know? Well, actually, you know, it’s just like, in this non dual world, we’re in our own. We’re kind of in our own sub world, you know, and the things that the people that we look up to and admire are different than the people that the regular people look up to and admire, you know, so when I watched Buddha at the Gas Pump interviews, you know, I’m always kind of watching the questions that you ask, and if I anytime I have a sense of that doesn’t seem right. You’re all it seemed like you always had that same sense. And, you know, you ask a question, like, okay, you know, and it’s a very honest approach to interviewing and I’ll just, you know, excited about doing I’ve been talking about it to my family, although they could care less, you know, I’m just, I’m happy to be here, you know.
Rick Archer: that’s great. Well, I appreciate it. Oh, let me just ask you. I know you do the local satsangs there in Sacramento. Do you do any like Skype sessions with people or anything like that?
Chadwick Johnson: I have, you know, all my spiritual teaching has really tapered off a lot now, other than Satsang I’m not I mean, every now and then, you know, I still have my website there. So people contact me and I’ll do a Skype session or I’ll, you know, I have one on one meetings.
Rick Archer: So if somebody contacted you do it.
Chadwick Johnson: Oh, yeah, sure.
Rick Archer: Okay. And obviously, you’re entitled to charge some reasonable fee to cover your time. No, you’re a busy guy. So I just want to throw that out there in case because people sometimes wonder, Oh, I like this guy. How can I follow up? What can I do? You know, and they, but they might live in England or someplace. And so there’s that opportunity if they’re interested?
Chadwick Johnson: Oh, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I love it. I love this is like, my, it’s like a hobby, a passion of mine, you know, to continue to talk about it, but also get a kick out of talking to people who are honestly, honestly, in that, you know, I guess, the valley of the shadow deck, you know, really, they’re, they’re not trying to, they have any ulterior motives, but they’re really just trying to be done. You know, and I, I like, holding, talking conversations with those people.
Rick Archer: Great. Okay. Well, thanks. This is really been good. We’ve. It’s been about 45 minutes since I was about to conclude, but we just kept going because we both love this stuff.
Chadwick Johnson: Yeah, it’s good. It’s a good topic. It’s a fun topic.
Rick Archer: Yeah. So let me make a few wrap up points. I’ve been speaking with Chadwick Johnson, everybody realizes that if they’ve gotten this far, and as always, I will link to his website and anything else he wants me to link to from his page on batgap.com. You can get in touch with him through that if you want. This interview is part of an ongoing series. And if you go to the website, you’ll poke around through the menus, you’ll see that the previous ones categorized in various ways, you’ll see a place to sign up to be notified by email, each time there’s a new one. There’s the Pay Pal button I mentioned in the beginning, there’s an audio podcast of this, you can sign up for it, subscribe to it on iTunes or Stitcher or whatever. And, you know, listen while you’re commuting or whatever. There’s even like, things like a ringtone and for your phone, if you want with the BatGap theme song. So if we explore all the, all the menus, you’ll find some fun stuff. I mentioned like last week that I was going to interview Byron Katie the next time I think, but then that that got postponed a couple of times. So it’s it’s coming up if a lot of people know about Byron, Katie and Byron, Katie, and we’re interested in that, but keep an eye on the upcoming interviews menu, and you’ll see where that’s going to when that’s going to be. So until next time, thanks for listening or watching. Thank you again, Chad has a lot of fun.
Chadwick Johnson: Yeah, it was very, it was very fun. I appreciate you allowing me to participate in this experience.
Rick Archer: Yeah, it’s really great. I think people enjoy this. And as usually it’s kind of a marathon. I usually go over two hours. But you know, some people like that. And if they don’t, they can just get a taste and then go on to the next thing.
Chadwick Johnson: Yeah, you can fast forward. Whatever you want to do.
Rick Archer: Yeah. All right. Thanks. I’ll talk to you later.
Chadwick Johnson: All right. Thank you, man.