Swami G Interview

Rick: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer and my guest this week is Swami G. And when you hear the name Swami G, if you are familiar with Indian names probably you think I am saying like Gandhi Ji or Maharshi Ji or something like that. You know they add this honorific Ji at the end of people’s names. But I looked on your website and the G stands for a rather long Sanskrit name that was bestowed upon you by your Guru. So I will have you pronounce that rather than me make an attempt at it if you don’t mind.

Swami G: Yeah, well we would be here all night. Actually the whole name would be Gangapurikali Udmanandagiri. So just yeah, Swami G for short.

Rick: Yeah, I can see why you adopted the G.

Swami G: That’s it. So much simpler.

Rick: Right, right. And also glancing at your website, it seems that you have had a very interesting and colorful history. You know your whole spiritual path has been a little bit out of the ordinary I would say and full of interesting stories I am sure. You kind of gave it in a nutshell on the website but perhaps we could elaborate on all of that tonight.

Swami G: You have about six days.

Rick: Sure, we will make it a series or a marathon, one or the other.

Swami G: It would be a marathon. It was about four lifetimes in one.

Rick: Yeah, yeah, definitely on the fast track. And I should mention to our listeners that I got connected with Swami Ji through her student Ron, who is an old friend of mine whom I have kind of known, not as a close friend, we never hung around together, but he was friends with my mother like thirty years ago and we have been in touch and kind of chatting on chat groups and what not. And even though I am not in close constant contact with Ron, I do seem to notice a rather profound transformation and maturity that has dawned in him over the last couple of years that he has been involved with you. And as you just said, “You shall know them by their fruits.” And I always feel like it is a good barometer of the quality of a teacher to see how their students are developing.

Swami G: Oh, absolutely. I always tell people, “If you want to know the teacher, then interview the students and see what they are getting, what they are not getting, what transformations have taken place or not, and if it is stable or if it is not.” So yeah, that is a good indicator of what is going on.

Rick: Yeah, and how they behave, whether they seem to have a kind of maturity and open-mindedness or whether they are acting like jerks or whatever. I mean, there are exceptions to every generality and many teachers attract thousands of students and there is always going to be a few rotten apples and a few gems. But the general flavor of the people that are around the teacher I think are indicative of the efficacy of that teacher. And so far from what I have seen, I like what I have seen.

Swami G: Oh, well, I am glad to hear that. Yeah, when he came in, he was posting very long, long posts. And as he has gone along and the journey has unfolded, the posts have gotten shorter and shorter and shorter until they are like one line now.

Rick: Yeah, in fact he sent me an apology the other day. He said, “I am sorry for all those things I used to post.” And I said, “Don’t worry about it. We all go through changes and boy, if I had to apologize for all the crazy things I have done over the years, it again would be a six hour show.”

Swami G: Yeah, sometimes he is a little enthusiastic.

Rick: Yeah, that is a good quality. So let’s stop talking about Ron and get back to you. Where would you like to start? What seems to work well for these interviews, and we can do it differently if you like, but what seems to work well is that people just trace their history. They were a teenager or whatever and they picked up some book and they got all excited about spiritual development and then they did this, that and the other thing and one thing led to the next. So if you would like to do the story in that way, we could do it.

Swami G: Oh, I am not adverse to doing the story, but Lord only knows what is going to come out, because there is really no continuity of history any longer and it is difficult to go back and piece everything together in a chronological order.

Rick: It does not have to be chronological. I understand the thing, a lot of people say, “Well, I am really not that person anymore, so it seems a little bit like old news to talk about, ‘I did this and I did that,'” so we do not have to dwell on that too much. People do sometimes find it fascinating, they can relate personally to various phases of a person’s spiritual path that they might also have gone through, so that is interesting. It is an open book, however you would like to do this is fine with me.

Swami G: I think in one way the history is important and I understand a lot of Advaita teachers that say there is nothing to get and nowhere to go, and it was always here and they want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. I think that the history to some degree is important, if nothing else to show that there was wearing away of ego, there was a lot of search involved with it, it was not just waking up one morning and suddenly boom, it is there.

Rick: In fact, sometimes the Advaita teachers who say that are people who were on a path for 30 years doing all kinds of practices and then they wake up and say, “You don’t need to do all that.”

Swami G: Yes, because the reason is when everything falls away then it is just so blatantly apparent in your face and it has always been there, and so that is the immediate reaction when things fall away. But there is, enlightenment is instantaneous, but it can take years and lifetimes to get to that instant.

Rick: Right, that is well put. So we won’t go through all of your lifetimes, but let’s go through some of the years.

Swami G: Yes, we will dispense with a few of the lifetimes.

Rick: Unless you want to touch upon those too, if you happen to remember them, that is cool.

Swami G: Well, we may touch upon one of them, because it was instrumental in the journey as it was, such as it has been. I started really seeking at a very, very young age, due to the fact that what turned out, and what I saw later, was a left-handed blessing. Of course at the time I didn’t think it was a left-hand, that it was a blessing at all. I was in a home and there wasn’t much love there, there wasn’t much giving, it was kind of an abusive type of a household. And so there was really nothing there to cling to, when it came to parents and no stability with that to hold to. There wasn’t this loving atmosphere, “We love you,” and that was never heard, ever, in the lifetime, as a child. And so I started to go inward, because there was nothing outwardly. I was not allowed to have friends, was not allowed to go out, was not allowed to do any of these things, so of course the natural inclination was to go within, to begin to go within.

Rick: How did you do that? Did it happen spontaneously or did you have some method?

Swami G: Well, that was, in those young ages, it was not a methodology, but the internal search was more of looking for something and knowing there had to be something more, and wanting to know truth. Is there a God? What is God? What is truth? Just that longing. And so I began with that. I started reading more of things of the saints, and if I had been Catholic, maybe I would have wound up becoming a nun. So I used to start looking, and I didn’t come from a family, you know, so many of the sages and realized beings, when you are in India, they say, “Oh, they came from such a spiritual family.” Well, no, not in this case. I didn’t come from a spiritual background. My family didn’t go to church every week. I remember though, as a child, I went to visit my two grandmothers, and they were about as opposite in the spectrum of Christianity as you could get. One of them was a Mennonite, and so when I went to visit her, the couple of times I went, I went with her to church and wore the little white hat and sat there very austerely. And then the other grandmother was a holy roller.

Rick: Kind of shouting and singing.

Swami G: Oh yeah, shouting, dancing down the aisles, “Hallelujah, praise the Lord!” They were going out and doing the baptisms in the lake, and so that was about as opposite extreme as you could get, as far as that’s concerned. And so, yeah, that was interesting. But as far as the family, no. My father would read a lot of Edgar Cayce, he was more into that type of thing.

Rick: So he was kind of spiritual then?

Swami G: Well, I don’t know if really spiritual, but he had a …

Rick: He was looking deeper, anyway.

Swami G: He was looking deeper, he was doing some things like past life regressions, he taught me to do that, and I was doing that type of work when I was 18 years old.

Rick: But nonetheless, he was sort of abusive, despite his seeking tendencies.

Swami G: Yes, unfortunately, yes, that was true. But I did see some interesting things with past life regressions, such as people that had allergies would come out of allergies if they had experienced something, but I never held to that it was such an important thing to be looking for. So that was fine. I left home, of course, when I was 18, and from that point went into an order, the Order of Man.

Rick: What’s that?

Swami G: It was kind of, they call it “Old Christian,” it was run by Father Blyton in San Francisco, and this was really in the end of ’68, ’69, when the Haight Ashbury was The Haight, and all the drugs and stuff, and rather than getting involved in all the drug community and that, I went into the order.

Rick: Was it a monastic order?

Swami G: Yes, it was like a monastic order where you learned to be a minister, but that was my real big opening.

Rick: So you were a nun of sorts at that point?

Swami G: In some sort of a manner you would say a nun, yes. But this is really what started the journey in earnest, because one night I was there, and we go down to prayers every evening, and during the prayers there was the laying on of the hands on the head and the blessing, and during one of the evening services this lightning bolt went through my body. It was like a gold lightning bolt, about four inches wide, and just went straight through the body and nailed me to the floor, and that started the kundalini, that was the beginning of the awakening.

Rick: Interesting, was that during the laying on of hands?

Swami G: Yes, and he knew immediately what had happened, Father Blighton knew.

Rick: So he had the juice himself?

Swami G: He definitely had the juice, yes. So that started the process. I looked up and was seeing auras and was shifted into a samadhi experience for a number of days, into that oneness experience of overwhelming bliss and you are one with everything. If I had died at that moment it wouldn’t have mattered, you are just at that point in that bliss. And so this started my journey, really, that was the beginning of the kundalini awakening. And I left the order, because there were some things I saw, there were some jealousies and other things going on that I didn’t feel I wanted to be a long-standing part of.

Rick: Did you leave shortly after that awakening?

Swami G: Yes.

Rick: Wouldn’t you say the awakening was probably instrumental in your impetus to leave? It was somehow having shifted, it’s like you no longer fit into that shoe anymore, you needed to move into something.

Swami G: Well yes, I think it was instrumental in that as well. But I was looking under every crevice, every rock, everything I could find. I was involved in so many things, the New Age movement and crystals and all of that stuff, and looking through that type of thing. And Scientology was in the Sea Org, I mean, you know, just everything you can think of I was involved in.

Rick: And was your awakening sustained at that point, the kundalini awakening, or did it kind of go dormant again?

Swami G: For a while it kind of laid low for a very short time, but then it really started bursting out in earnest, and it was very, very severe, it was very, very difficult.

Rick: Unpleasant?

Swami G: It was very difficult.

Rick: Unpleasant?

Swami G: Well, during part of the journey it felt like I was going to spontaneously combust, so yeah, I would say.

Rick: Did you know what was going on, or did you have anybody who could counsel you, or were you kind of like just on your own at this point?

Swami G: You know, at that point I was really on my own. I looked and looked for a teacher, for a guru, for somebody that knew what was going on. I had gotten a hold of the … and the only thing that was out during that period of time was Gopi Krishna’s book, and when I had read it I recognized, “Okay, this is what it is,” but of course it gave nothing.

Rick: Was that a book about kundalini?

Swami G: It was a book about kundalini and his journey and the difficulty he had, and he never transcended, I don’t think he ever reached realization, but I figured out, “This is what this is,” and I went to look throughout the years and just really was not finding anyone that knew much about this, and so it was difficult. I was having a lot of phenomena, a lot of phenomena, and city powers, some city powers came, was able to control weather. People will say it’s a lot of bunk, but no, those things came and they went, and they are not important in the long range of things. They can be very ego-stumbling blocks along the way if one gets into trying to develop those types of powers, etc.

Rick: When you say phenomena, do you mean perceptual things that were happening and stuff like that? And if so, is that worth elaborating on?

Swami G: There was a lot of phenomena, and so I can talk a little bit about some of the phenomena that went on through the years. People would take photos, regular photos of me, not Corellian photos, not aura photos, and there would be lights coming out of the head, lights coming out of the mouth, you would see a snake curled next to the shoulder that you would see, just phenomena, lots of things of that sort. One second you’re in the body, the next second you’re out of the body and the consciousness is above the trees, just so many things. One night I woke up, went out into the living room and it was just silver, the whole area was silver, and very vivid dreams, very lucid dreams. I went through the period of the dreams of fires and the dreams, a lot of dreams of snakes when it became very, very active, and just so, so many things that happened with that.

Rick: Were you needing to hold down a job during all this or did you have some form of support so you didn’t have to work in a cashier’s register or something while seeing snakes?

Swami G: Oh no, I had to hold down a job, I was a single parent raising my daughter by myself, it was very, very difficult. I had gone into the military, was in the military not for a really long time, had gone through abuse, like I said as a young girl, was molested by an uncle and then had gotten raped in the military and was dealing with PTSD as well as with a raging Kundalini.

Rick: Boy, what a mixture, huh?

Swami G: So it was really tough, it was really, really tough. I went into also the Krishna, Hare Krishna’s, and was with Prabhupada when he was alive, so I lived in that ashram life for a time as well, and I had a very interesting story with him when he was in LA. I was standing there and had done this mala of the flowers, full of flowers for the deity statues, and he was coming in from his morning walk and he saw me standing there and he goes, “Come with me.” And this was a bit unusual because I hadn’t taken initiation there, I never took initiation although I did live there for a year, year and a half, and he took me up to his private quarters and had me put the malas on his deities, his Krishna and Radha, and looked at me point blank and said, “You will reach realization, you will enter realization in this lifetime.” So that was interesting but I knew that it wasn’t the place I was going to be for a long time.

Rick: Did you feel that he was a realized man?

Swami G: I think he really possibly knew more than what he gave, but he always said, and this is the one thing that stuck with me, that mankind can only be attached to something, so let them be attached to Krishna.

Rick: Yeah, the reason I ask is that we started the conversation talking about students being reflectors of the teacher and having run into a number of Hare Krishnas in airports and all the controversies that have followed that movement, I’ve often wondered how substantial it really was, but that’s kind of a tangent we don’t need to get into really.

Swami G: Well no, I think like I said, he kept with letting people be attached to that and I think that they don’t go the whole way, they go and really study the Bhagavad Gita but they don’t go into Uddhava Gita, and the Uddhava Gita in the end goes more into non-duality and starts to cut through that. He didn’t give that, he only gave the Bhagavad Gita and so people only went a certain distance with that and no further, they didn’t go to the full falling away of everything.

Rick: Yeah, as a matter of fact his followers are kind of notorious for arguing against Shankara and non-duality teachers like that.

Swami G: Yeah, because they’ve only gotten half of the knowledge, they’ve only gotten half the knowledge, and so when I run into them I say, “Please read the Uddhava Gita. If you’re going to study Krishna then let’s look at all of the text and see what his final admonitions were before he left this planet in plane.”

Rick: Yeah, and Uddhava by the way was, I’m not telling you, I’m telling people who might not know, was his closest disciple and so there was this conversation between them and the Uddhava Gita came out of that.

Swami G: Yes, exactly, exactly. Rick

Rick:So to continue your story, you were with Prabhupada and that’s where we left off and then what?

Swami G: Yes, I was with Prabhupada and had left there and another fun anecdote was I decided to hitchhike one time to Mexico. I thought this was a brilliant idea.

Rick: Yeah, I did a lot of that in those days.

Swami G: So I was hitchhiking to Mexico with this American Indian, we get down into Mexico and what does he do? We meet this Mexican guy and they go into this bar and they’re throwing him back, and I’m drunk as a skunk, they come out and I said, “I’m not getting in the car unless I’m driving,” and they weren’t having any of that, so I went on my way and wasn’t too far from this town. I went into this town and went in the evening to have my dinner and this policeman comes up to me and he goes, “What are you doing here?” I go, “Well, obviously I’m going to have my meal, my dinner, well you have to come with me.” Next thing you know he puts me in this Mexican jail and I’m there for three days and three nights, very prophetic. I’m sitting there and going, “Okay, why am I here?” And it finally clicks, “Okay, you’re off the path, you’re off searching, you need to get back to your search.” And about 15 minutes later this policeman comes back and he goes, “Why are you here?” I said, “You tell me and we’ll both know.” He went up and nobody had a clue who I was, why I was there, nothing. And so they let me out and I went back to my path and left Mexico and back to the search in earnest.

Rick: That’s interesting, as soon as you had that realization, “Why am I here? I’m off my path,” fifteen minutes later the guy comes and lets you out. That’s pretty prompt timing. As a matter of fact your sense of timing is very good because just this week I had had a cancellation and I was sitting here thinking, “Who am I going to interview next Wednesday?” And just as I was thinking that, the email from Ron comes in saying, “How would you like to interview Swamiji?” I said, “Perfect, okay, let’s do that.”

Swami G: Well that’s the way the universe works, it’s got its own timing for everything. We just go with the flow, that’s it, we’re not in control of it, we just are along for the ride of it and enjoy that.

Rick: Okay, good, so you got out of jail and back to the search.

Swami G: Got out of jail and back to the search. And like I said, it was just a very, very long, difficult journey. I was one of those that, you know, I did learn a lot of lessons on my own sitting out in nature, but there’s only so much you can get. And I was under one of the ones, and I understand where they’re coming from, under the delusion I could do it on my own, because here’s Kundalini going. And one thing I was told when the Kundalini awakened was, “Well, you’re in the first stage of enlightenment.” Well I don’t believe that, I think that’s a wrong thing to tell somebody, because it’s not enlightenment whatsoever, it’s not even remotely close to it, you’re just beginning the journey at that point. So anyway, I worked for 20 years to get my benefits from the military, it took a long time, and when I got my benefits I decided I would go to India.

Rick: Now wait a minute, does that mean you stayed in the military for 20 years, or you had to do paperwork and hassle with bureaucracy for 20 years?

Swami G: Right, right, paperwork with the bureaucracy, and it took 20 years to get my benefits.

Rick: They finally decided to just shut you up and give you the benefits.

Swami G: Something like that, yes. And so at that point I said, “I’m leaving and I’m going to India,” and of course was in that, again, another erroneous mindset that I need to find the tantra, I need to find the tantra because I need to balance all this stuff out � the male, the female and all this other drama.

Rick: And what did you understand “find the tantra” to mean at that point?

Swami G: Well of course, I didn’t really know a lot about tantra, I was under a lot of misconceptions as to what it is and what it’s not, and happened to meet an Indian guy online and he said, “Oh, he was tantric, his whole family is tantric,” and so I was going to go over there to meet with this person. But I’ll back up just a little bit from that.

Rick: Yeah, because if you’re saying “online,” you must be talking the 90s now or something.

Swami G: Yeah, we’re up to the 90s now.

Rick: Okay, well I’ll let you back up a little bit.

Swami G: So we’ll back up a little bit as well with that. When I was living in the Arizona area, I went into this bookstore and I saw this tape there, “Satsangs with Rajiv,” and I was looking at it and going, “Yeah, I wouldn’t go to this Yahoo if he was the last person on the face of the planet, you know? I don’t need a guru. I can do this on my own. I’ve got this Kundalini awakening.” At this point in time, things had progressed and I had that city, that basically anything you wanted to know intellectually would be there, and it would be there just either full force or line by line by line would unfold. So you think you know something, but you know nothing, you know? The fallacy of the intellectual drama.

Rick: Would that apply mainly to philosophical or spiritual insights or could it even apply to mundane things, like you’re driving your car and you need to know how to get to so-and-so, such-and-such location, and that mundane information would come?

Swami G: Well, I’d say it was more on the spiritual because that’s where my focal point was. I wasn’t so interested in the other, although I can get in the car and wind up where I’m going and don’t know how I got there and it just happens. I just wind up there. But yeah, it was more on the spiritual type because that’s where my focal point was, that’s what I was looking for. So I left, I got on the plane.

Rick: Wait a minute, now you mentioned this book. Is this the guy you ended up deciding to go to India to see?

Swami G: No.

Rick: Oh, okay. But what was the significance of that book that you mentioned, the Rajiv book?

Swami G: Oh, of seeing the tape? It will come in, I will explain that as we go.

Rick: Okay, the Satsang with Rajiv book I’m referring to, where you said, “I’d never connect with this bozo.” Okay, so you’re getting to that.

Swami G: I’m getting to that, we’re coming to that. You know, I was having along the journey, and again, once more back up, like I said, this is tough for me to do interviews because I don’t have a real chronological thing any longer. You lose that time and space and it’s difficult. But I’ll go back a little bit because one thing that took place, because you asked about phenomena and this and that, I was living in San Francisco and the first time that things started to get still and quiet in the mind, I was sitting in a little coffee place called Caffe Trieste and had ordered my latte and was sitting there and all of a sudden there was quiet. And things again went into another expanded state, and again, the heart opening was there and that oneness was there, and that’s when that started to happen in earnest. And that would come and go throughout the days and throughout the years.

Rick: Silence would just come and descend upon you, so to speak.

Swami G: Right, the mind would get quiet, the mind would get quiet. There was a space of quiet, a space of silence there. Now I wouldn’t call it stillness yet because it was rising and falling, it would come in and go out like waves. So I don’t call it at that point stillness, at that point it was just getting some quiet that would come in.

Rick: Would it be more likely to happen when the circumstances were conducive to it, such as just sitting quietly, or could it even happen if you were riding a streetcar or something?

Swami G: Oh, it could happen any time, it could happen at any time. There wasn’t any rhyme or reason, nothing you could do to make it take place, it would just all of a sudden start happening. So anyway, the time progressed and then I decided I would go to India because the Kundalini was just raging and like I said, I was feeling like I was going to spontaneously combust and had gone through already the dark night of the soul, which I did pass through.

Rick: Is that worth talking about?

Swami G: Yeah, maybe it is.

Rick: Because people do go through that and it might be good for them to hear your experience.

Swami G: Yeah, it was really, really deep. Like I said, I was dealing with PTSD, I was dealing with depression, I was dealing with all of this as well as raging Kundalini. And I was praying, I mean literally I was praying for death. I said, “I can’t take anymore, God, I really can’t take anymore,” it was just so painful.

Rick: Did you have a feeling that the Kundalini was burning out the PTSD and the depression and stuff, as if the force of the Kundalini was incinerating that stuff and that’s why you were experiencing it so intensely?

Swami G: No, not really, I didn’t know why that was happening. I didn’t have any clue as to what was going on at that point, no, no. But I was just in a lot, a lot of pain. And I can see the difference in working with people, there’s a difference between the pain and the drama of the PTSD and the depression and that versus the Kundalini, what happens with that. They’re distinct and separate things.

Rick: It’s interesting that the two can coexist in one person like that, because one might think that you have to really have all that stuff cleared away before you can really have the spiritual awakenings, but you had a load of it still and yet the Kundalini is going on at the same time.

Swami G: Yeah, there was a load of it, there was a load of it. But maybe some of it with Kundalini brought some insights along the way as well, and I can give you some of those insights that were taking place in the midst of this as well. But right now we’re talking about the dark night of the soul and when that took place. And literally at one point of the journey I was feeling the weight of the world. This wasn’t just the normal depression, this just wasn’t the, “Oh, my life is not going well,” and all of that. I mean literally it was feeling the weight of the world and that identification with Christ and that just, you couldn’t even take a breath, the heaviness and just the torture and the feeling this across the board of humanity. It was just, I mean I can’t even describe what it was like. It was not like the normal depression and all of that. That had been going on for years, but this was another spiritual type thing and it lasted for some time. It wasn’t an instant where it was within an hour or two. This was going on for some time.

Rick: Oh no, I’m sure. Your story reminds me of a friend of mine who was saying some of the very same things. Very profound spiritual awakenings and development, feeling the weight of the world and going through all this intense pain and everything, and unfortunately he did end up killing himself. He didn’t go through it all.

Swami G: Well I was fortunate. I had the insight and I had the wisdom enough to know that that wasn’t going to get me out of anything. I would have to come back and do it all over again. I had that much of an insight and wisdom to know that. But yes, I was literally praying for death.

Rick: But you hung on for dear life and made it through there.

Swami G: Oh yeah. It was for me, at that moment, it was just hour by hour trying to get through it. It was minute by minute trying to get through the next breath. And I was praying, I just went, “God, I can’t take anymore, take this from me.” And the next thing you know, then I went into an even more difficult state. R’ And how long did this go on, this intense suffering period?

Swami G: Oh, like I said, I have no …

Rick: Like years?

Swami G: I would say it was maybe like six months to a year, something like that. It was an extended time. It wasn’t, like I said, days or hours. This was a very extended thing that I was going through. But at that point, I prayed and just went, “I can’t take anymore, please take this away.” But then I went to an even more difficult place. As bad as that was, then I went into this feeling like being a zombie, like there were no emotions, there was nothing there, you just were like this robotic thing and numb and there was nothing. And that was even worse. And then at that point I go, “Oh my God, when is the resurrection going to come, because this is even worse, this was worse than that hell of that suffering.”

Rick: Did people whom you were interacting with have a sense that you were going through any of this or did you seem normal to them?

Swami G: Well, no, I really didn’t talk to too many. I had gone to try to get some help for the depression and the PTSD and that type of stuff, and they just looked at me and said, “Your case is just so difficult, we don’t even know where to begin.” I had one that said, “If I were you, I would have killed myself long ago.” That was not a big help.

Rick: A little bit irresponsible for a psychiatrist to say that.

Swami G: Thanks for that. That was great. It didn’t help. And alongside that, like I said, there were some insights that came. This was part of the mental-emotional drama that didn’t have to do with Kundalini, but I was getting piercings done at that point. I was getting piercings done because, and then finally a light bulb went off in the head that said, and recognized what it was, that the physical pain was easier to deal with than the emotional pain. But every time this started healing up again, all the emotional pain would rush in again.

Rick: So you’d actually intentionally go through some physical pain in the form of piercings in order to deflect your attention from the emotional pain.

Swami G: Exactly, exactly. And then when finally the light bulb went off, as to why I was doing that, I said, “Well, this is really stupid. This isn’t helping anything,” and I stopped it at that point.

Rick: I wonder if that’s what these kids are doing, who cut themselves intentionally and stuff, I wonder if that’s what they’re doing to deflect themselves from emotional pain.

Swami G: It could be, it could be a part of it. But in the process of whether it’s emotional pain or you’re dealing with mental trauma or whatever, the first step is you have to see it in order to deconstruct it, to go beyond it. So it took a light bulb going off of insight to see what was going on with this.

Rick: So that was the insight you were referring to?

Swami G: Yeah, that was one of the insights that came along the way as to why I was doing that. I said, “Well, that is really not going to solve anything,” so I stopped at that point and saw that you really have to feel these things, you really have to go through it.

Rick: I was just going to say, were there some other insights during this period? Because you referred to insights plural and so I thought maybe there were several things.

Swami G: Well, just along the journey, insights will come along the way. And so anyway, we’re going forward again in time to where I left and flew to India and met up with this person. He had written a book. This person that I had met online had written a book and I went to see him. He was giving some big talk to some businessmen and stuff, but I rapidly saw that he didn’t know anything really. He didn’t know anything. I was in Lucknow and I had gotten a book before I got on the airplane that was talking about different spiritual masters and places in India. I said, “Well, while I’m there I would like to see what the ashrams are like there,” because I had lived, like I said, with the Krishna ashram in the U.S. and I wanted to see if it was different there, but I didn’t want a guru. I don’t need one of those guru people. But I looked in the book and there was one located there and he had passed, so I said, “Well, okay, no problem, I can go there.”

Rick: Because the guru is dead.

Swami G: Because the guru is not there.

Rick:I think it was Ram Dass who said, “Dead gurus don’t kick ass.”

Swami G: There you go. So I went and they were telling me, “Well, we’re having bhajans tonight.” I love bhajans, I love the singing, and they said, “Why don’t you come for the program?” I said, “Okay, I’ll come for the program.” And indeed, I went that evening for the program and I walked in and here is this Indian gentleman, all in white, and he is sitting there playing the harmonium and he is singing these lovely bhajans and I looked at him and he looked at me and knew immediately there was this connection and that there was something there. And afterwards he came up and we spoke and he was, honest to goodness, a tantric master, and so he did teach me ins and outs of tantra and it’s not what people think that it is.

Rick: Right, you might want to elaborate on that.

Swami G:Yeah, well, it’s not sex, it’s none of that stuff. So it’s much more in-depth and it has nothing to do with all the sexual things that people want to think that it is.

Rick: Do you want to say what it does have to do with or let me be part of your story as it unfolds here?

Swami G: Yeah, well, I don’t talk too much about the tantra, just simply say that it’s not what people think that it is, that’s all. I don’t get into a lot of it. Tantra, you know, really tantra has to do with also using everything in life to move forward and there is a lot of other depth to it, but I don’t go into talking about it. And really, real tantric teachers, they are not teaching in big forums and things like that, it doesn’t happen, it’s a one-to-one teaching. Okay, so we’ll leave it at that. But the teacher, he wound up being my teacher and he was all familiar, very familiar with Kundalini, knew all the ins and outs of it, he was a realized master, his father had been a realized being as well, and he had been a student of the guru that had passed. Now what happened with him, he had left the ashram when the guru passed, he didn’t really want anything to do with that ashram because he saw people were there and they just wanted to make money off of it and other stuff was going on and he didn’t want to really be involved with it. But the guru that had passed appeared to him and said, “You need to go sing me bhajans.” And he’s going, “Yeah, okay, whatever, whatever.” And then the guru appeared to him again and he said, “No, you need to go sing me bhajans and you need to go now.” So this was all set up by the universe. He went there and he wound up being my teacher. I was very fortunate to have the one-to-one time with him. He has other sadhakas that he goes to now, but when I was there in India I got to spend all my time one-to-one with him.

Rick: So he’s still alive?

Swami G: Yes, he’s still alive, although he’s older now and he’s already had some heart problems.

Rick: Now he wasn’t your final teacher though, right? He was kind of a transitionary teacher that you saw?

Swami G: Actually he was my root guru and final teacher.

Rick: Oh, is he the one who initiated you into sannyas and who gave you your name?

Swami G: He was still headed in that direction.

Rick: So what was the nature of your awakenings or realizations at that phase when you were with this man?

Swami G: Well, when I was with him, he was very tough. He was very, very tough. I was kind of puffed up and I had all these writings and this and that, thought I was kind of hot stuff, thought I knew something. I was showing him these writings and stuff. He looked at them and read them and he says, “Well, if you believe this, then you’re already there.” And then he turns around in the next instant and deadbolt in my face, “You idiot, you fool, you know nothing! Who the hell do you think you are?” I mean, just boom. I mean, just this tantric face and this glaring and this energy just boom hit me. And I was literally mute for three days. I couldn’t speak, I couldn’t get a word out of my mouth, nothing would come out. I tried to utter something and nothing would come out.

Rick: So you weren’t resentful at him for yelling at you, you realized something good had happened?

Swami G: Well, not at the moment. At the moment, of course, the immediate response is, you want to flare up and the ego wants to go crazy with it. But it had been so shocking and such that jerk, hard-hitting, shaking of that ego, that it really, at that point, threw it back on itself and then this spontaneous inquiry began to take place. So he was really, really a tantric master and really was that crazy wisdom and knew what he was doing.

Rick: Did he yell and scream like that very often or was it just that one time when he really needed to slam you?

Swami G: No, it wasn’t an all-the-time thing. No, it was just that one time and just really nailed me, absolutely.

Rick: So when you say the inquiry began to take place, would it be fair to say that all these years the kundalini had been going on, but you hadn’t been so self-referral or self-reflective or something? There was a habituation to just assuming that you had a certain status and directing your attention more outwardly?

Swami G: Right, it was more of an externalized thing. This is why the phenomena happens and stuff, you’re in the third eye and you’re projecting outwards and the mind goes off on a drama and you latch onto it and quantum, of course, happens and you can manifest all this type of stuff � realms and gods, goddesses, all of this stuff you can manifest.

Rick: And so he kind of turned you around?

Swami G: Yes, yes. He shook me to the core and turned me around. People always ask me, “Well, what’s his name?” And I don’t give out his name because simply for the fact that he wants to remain in quiet, he doesn’t want people following him, he is very much a traditional guru.

Rick: Yeah, I was going to ask, but then when you said that he’s getting old and he has heart trouble, I thought, “Well, he doesn’t want people coming.”

Swami G: Exactly, exactly. And so I honor that and just keep that for what it is. There are some of my students that have met him. I have brought a few students so he could see the progress and what has happened here, that some have entered realization and what’s going on, and so he was happy to see that. So it’s good. He wound up leaving and going to the U.S. for a time, and so at that time I went from Lucknow and went to Rishikesh and stayed up in Rishikesh. And things were still unfolding, things were still at that point unfolding, and having more oneness experiences, and that experience of, “Oh, everything is Krishna, and Krishna is within me, and Krishna is in everyone, and it’s blissful, and it’s love,” and all of this type of stuff. All of those unfoldings are still taking place, and other phenomena. Every time I would step on the bridge going across the Ganges, I would lose body consciousness, and it was just very difficult to walk across the bridge.

Rick: Yeah, I can imagine.

Swami G: Yeah, because of the body consciousness, it’s like outside the back, and it’s like a puppet trying to move. So more and more depth is happening, more and more falling away is taking place, more and more spontaneous self-inquiry into watching the mind and seeing what’s there, and really going to the depth of it. And as that’s happening, these conditionings are breaking through one by one.

Rick: Now, were you doing intense practices at this point, doing a lot of meditation or anything, or was it just this momentum, this head of steam had been built up and you were just going through these changes without doing a lot of formal practice?

Swami G: Well, there was practice, I have to say there was practice, but not what people would consider. It was like ongoing meditation throughout the day. When I went to Rishikesh, and now we come up to the Babas, we come up to the Naga community, I had met one Naga Baba, Sundar Puri, and yeah, he was the genuine, real deal.

Rick: Are those the guys you see in pictures of the Kumbh Mela and everything, who are naked and have their hair really long and that sort of thing?

Swami G: Yes, yes. And so he became kind of a protector for me, he watched over me and he understood there was a lot of depth, what was going on. He was really respecting because I didn’t do the ganja, I wasn’t smoking the drugs, I wasn’t taking any of that, I was just serious on my practice.

Rick: Was he?

Swami G: Oh yes.

Rick: He smoked?

Swami G: Oh yes, absolutely. In fact, that’s what killed him.

Rick: Oh really, lung cancer?

Swami G:No, it wasn’t lung cancer, he had a massive heart attack.

Rick: Oh, from just too much pot smoking?

Swami G: Well, it was heavier than that, but I’ll get to that, what happened with that.

Rick: And this may be a trivial question, but did he speak English? How did you communicate?

Swami G: He did, he spoke a little English, and he was there and showing me that tradition, the Shaivite tradition, and all about the dhuni and learning the Sadhu language.

Rick: What is the dhuni?

Swami G: A dhuni is the fire, and the fire is representative of that truth in Shiva.

Rick: A ceremonial fire sort of thing?

Swami G: Yes, yes. You keep the fire going, even when it’s 120 degrees you have the fire going in there. So yeah, it’s a lot of tapasya with that.

Rick: Tapasya means austerity?

Swami G: Austerity, a lot of austerity with that. So I lived that life and stayed in huts next to the Ganges, got up in the morning and would bathe in the Ganges and that water is ice cold. And so anyway, he was kind of a protector and watched out for me. And one day, this is one of the great anecdotes that happened along the way, I asked him, I said, “Could you watch my clothing and my things because I have to take care of something for my guru. He’s gone to the States and he’s asked me to take care of something for him in Lucknow.” And so he said, “Yes, I’ll watch your stuff.” And I was hesitant, I said, “No, I don’t want to take sannyas. My guru wore white, I’m going to wear white and that’s that.” And so I left and while I was gone, he took all of my clothing and dyed them all saffron.

Rick: I thought you were going to say he threw it in the Ganges or something, but at least you still had clothing.

Swami G: No, he went and he dyed all of my clothing saffron and said, “Now you have no choice and you have to become a sadhi.” He was very funny.

Rick: So did he formally initiate you into sannyas?

Swami G: No, he didn’t get the chance to. He wanted to with the next big Kumbha Mela that was coming up and he knew what was going on, he saw what was happening. And during this time my practice was mainly sitting by the Ganges and just looking out in the center of the Ganges. And the Ganges is going by and it’s going by and it’s going by, and the mind is stilling, and the mind is stilling. There were very, very little thoughts at that time, it was going more and more into stillness.

Rick: What was happening with the PTSD at this point?

Swami G: It was still there, it was still there. All that stuff was still there up until realization took place. It was still there.

Rick: And how was that manifesting in terms of anxieties or crying fits or anger?

Swami G: Anxieties and stuff, yeah. A lot of very, very heavy anxieties. It had gotten a little better with not quite as many flashbacks and stuff, but there were still things that would throw you into flashbacks and all of that drama. And the PTSD for me was really, really difficult. Like when I went to the VA and they have to do an evaluation of you, I couldn’t even talk too much about it. They said, “We have to stop it because we’re afraid this veteran is going to go into a psychosis because they can’t.” It was really, really devastating, very, very difficult.

Rick: Was that primarily from your childhood traumas or from the rape in the military?

Swami G: It’s a combination. It’s a combination, but what they found out, and this is why they finally had to give my benefits, was if you have … and at first they threw it out, they said, “Well, you’ve had trauma before, therefore we’re not responsible.” But what I found out and what I took in at the second time was, if you’ve had first trauma and you have secondary trauma, you will definitely develop PTSD beyond a shadow of a doubt. So at that point they had to recant and give me those benefits.

Rick: Yeah. Still a huge problem, but that’s a whole other topic.

Swami G: That’s a whole other topic, yeah. It’s a very difficult problem and I know there are still a lot of people fighting for those benefits and it’s a very, very difficult process to go through that. If you don’t have enough turmoil, you’re trying to deal with that and you’re not allowed to have a lawyer, you’re not allowed to have any help, and they make it very difficult on you.

Rick: Yeah. J; Yeah. So anyway, I’m in Rishikesh and I’m sitting by the Ganges and things are still progressing. When I was at my guru’s, when I went back there, I stayed at his place and slept in the bed there. All of a sudden, in the middle of the night, this thing started going. That has become the COS practice here.

Rick: COS?

Swami G: COS, it means contemplation of self. And it just started running line by line by line and it took me to a very, very, very deep state. And I recognized that for what it was and came up out of that and wrote it down and it was all still there line by line. And my guru had given me a mantra, a very strong tantric mantra, and I had this spontaneous knowledge about mantras and added something to it and made it a complete mantra. And so this is how practices started to develop for people on this path.

Rick: So when you say “line by line,” are you talking about lines of English words or Sanskrit words or what?

Swami G: Mainly for that it was English words and it was just this whole long thing that really takes you into an expanded consciousness.

Rick: So do your students, again we’re kind of jumping ahead, but do your students, would you want to save that for later and I’ll ask you about it?

Swami G: Yeah, sure.

Rick: Okay, we’ll get into that.

Swami G: So anyway, that’s how practices for this path began to develop. So I went back to Rishikesh and one day I went to sit down for my normal sitting by the Ganges and all of a sudden this great terror came over me, great, great terror. And the only way that it can be explained is like being pitch black in the Grand Canyon and you know there’s that deep dark canyon there and yet you’re compelled to go forward.

Rick: Wow, as if you’re afraid you’re going to step off the edge any second or something.

Swami G: Oh yeah, it’s a great terror because you don’t know if you’re going to, it’s a feeling like I’m going to cease to exist or I’m going to become possessed. You don’t know what it is, you don’t know what this great terror is, but you are compelled to go forward. And at that point I knew in that part of my journey I had done everything that I could do. I had done everything that I could do at that point and there was nothing left that I could do. And I literally said within the mind at that point, “On the altar of truth I lay myself” and God’s either going to take me or pull me through, but this is it.

Rick: So you just sort of adopted an attitude of surrender to whatever would happen.

Swami G: Yes, total surrender. On the altar of truth I lay myself. And it was really terrifying because really you feel like this is the death, this is death or I’m going to totally cease to exist. And this is not in a blissful way.

Rick: Oh no, doesn’t sound like it.

Swami G: No, it’s absolutely terror filled at that moment.

Rick: But it sounds like you had the presence of mind to realize that this was something of spiritual significance, it wasn’t just some kind of trauma bubbling up from your military days or something.

Swami G: No, it wasn’t to do anything with that, absolutely not. This was just soul rocking terror.

Rick: But did you actually consciously realize that I am now at a sort of a watershed moment in my spiritual path and that’s why I’m experiencing this terror and I’ve just got to soldier on and go through it?

Swami G: You know, at that point it happens so quickly there is no time for that type of a thought process.

Rick: Okay, so you weren’t going through all kinds of…

Swami G: No, no, there is no time for that. It’s just do or die moment, that’s it, it hits you. And I just, like I said, went on the altar of truth, I lay myself, and the next second it was, there was no me, no world, it was all gone.

Rick: So this terror thing was brief, it only lasted a few moments?

Swami G: Yes, it only lasted a few moments and the world fell away and it was gone. And I cannot say if I was in that state, it could have been days, it could have been years, it could have been seconds, there is no time.

Rick: So did you just go into a samadhi state where you were no longer perceiving with your senses, it was just that sort of a state?

Swami G: Yeah, it was into a full nirvikalpa samadhi, and the only reality at that point is absolute, just that is.

Rick: No thoughts, no perceptions, no nothing? J

Swami G:No, no thoughts, nobody there perceiving this, you know, no, no, there is no me, there is no world, there is simply that, and that’s all that exists.

Rick: But it was consciousness? J; But it’s consciousness.

Rick: So it wasn’t like you’re sitting there thinking, “Oh cool, I finally made it,” it was just consciousness?

Swami G: Yes, there is no me to sit there and say, “I finally made it,” that illusion is blown out, it imploded, it imploded. And so however long, I don’t know how long that was, when you come back and the eyes are seeing the world, still there is just that consciousness and awareness of that.

Rick: Well it was still probably daylight when you opened your eyes again, right? And there was the Ganges.

Swami G: There was the Ganges, yes, yes.

Rick: But everything was different.

Swami G: Everything had changed in one split second, everything, and I was no more. That person that sat down never came back, and with all the conditioned ideas and everything was blown out immediately, immediately, and the mind was still and the mind never came back, there was no longer this rambling mind, that also ended.

Rick: A lot of people who have awakened talk this way, and some of them make it, they hammer on it all the time, “There’s no one home, there’s no self, there’s no person,” and so on. And I think it’s one of the most difficult things for people to understand who haven’t had such a realization.

Swami G: Exactly.

Rick: Because you can only think of it in terms of the framework of your own experience.

Swami G: Right, right. And that’s why I said it’s really impossible to try to, people will say, “But I see you, you’re sitting there, so obviously you’re there,” but looking within, there’s nothing one can grab onto any longer because the storyline of who and what you were is gone. It’s like some old film that you can’t even hardly remember anymore, it has no draw, no pull, no nothing, you know, nothing.

Rick: So when you get hungry or when you stub your toe or something like that, what is the sense that it’s happening to this body, but there still seems to me to be more of an identification with this body as opposed to the body of that person sitting over there. You don’t so much feel it when they stub their toe or get hungry, there still seems to be some sort of localization and that seems like a paradox to me, I don’t totally understand.

Swami G: It is, you know, the whole path is a paradox, it is a grand paradox. And all I can say, when this happens, the immediate response here was, “Oh my God, it’s the end of the journey,” type thing, but now what? Because you’ve sought and you’ve searched for so many lifetimes and years and you’ve searched for years and years and years and lifetimes. Can you turn on the little bit of the fan, I’m like roasting over here.

Rick: I think if we point it right at you and not at the microphone we’ll be okay.

Swami G: Yeah, just point it here, we’ll try that and see if that works.

Rick: So the question, “Now what?” Let’s see, we’re seeing how that fan goes. The question “Now what?” was that more like, “What am I going to do with myself now? I’ve been a professional seeker for all these years, what’s next?” Elaborate on that “Now what?” a little bit.

Swami G: Yeah, can you turn that down one more? Yeah, no, it wasn’t that, it was just that recognition that this is it. And I’ll give a little bit about some past life thing.

Rick: Hang on before we get into that, is it oscillating, the fan, or is it pointed straight at you?

Swami G: It’s pointed straight at you. Move it a little bit more this way.

Rick: Yeah, just so it’s not blowing on the mic. I heard some of that rumbling again, I was wondering if it was oscillating.

Swami G: Is that better?

Rick: Yes, I’m not hearing the rumbling now. Okay, good.

Swami G: Okay, good.

Rick: Okay, please continue.

Swami G: Yeah, and so I’ll give just another little thing that happened along the journey. Because I was wondering, it wasn’t just military, I had gone through a number of rapes and things. Where I lived in San Francisco, it had gotten broken into and this guy was there with a knife and the mask on and the whole thing, I mean it was brutal. I mean this was going on again and again and again and again, and I’m going, “What the heck is going on? Was I some mass rapist? What is occurring? Why is this happening?” And then I went into sleep one night and all of a sudden this lucid thing came and I saw this ceremony. And I had been a monk, had been a Tibetan monk, and they wanted to know if I wanted to participate in this Chod ceremony and stuff, and I didn’t know anything about that in this lifetime, and sitting in the charnel fields and you invite the hungry ghost to feed on your flesh and it’s to face that fear. Well in that lifetime I went crazy. I went absolutely crazy, it became very real.

Rick: So you mean you went psychotic, you flipped out?

Swami G: I went psychotic, yeah, I went crazy.

Rick: And never recovered?

Swami G: Huh?

Rick: And never recovered in that lifetime?

Swami G: No, I didn’t recover in that lifetime. I didn’t recover in that lifetime. And I was never able to face that, to see that that was the illusion and that was, you know, it became very, very real, and that phenomena, and I just totally waked out.

Rick: Did that have any karmic connection with the rapes?

Swami G: It did, and so that’s why we’re coming to that. And that’s the only reason I’m telling that, because what I saw was that this was not something that was happening out of negative karma, it was really that past life drama playing out in a more concrete manner.

Rick: So in other words, the karma that inflicted you in the Tibetan lifetime with psychosis came back to bug you in the form of sexual assault?

Swami G: It was something to again trigger that looking in, and what happened with this, and this is another thing that happened along the way, was looking at that and finally I had to sit with that, and what I recognized was that even if this can be gone for a second, where did it go? So what validity does it have? So who is re-victimizing me? The only one you could come back to was myself. Yes, events happened, events did happen, but who keeps dredging it up was myself. And then it was again this other cognition that came, and the cognition was, “I’m so fortunate that I have a chance to get out of this, but the ones that are perpetrating these acts are living in a hell realm.” And therefore this compassion developed, and when this compassion developed and I saw that they were living in a hell realm, then it began to loosen the structure of this as well.

Rick: And was this subsequent to your awakening that you talked about a few minutes ago?

Swami G: This was going on just prior to it, the full awakening. So these were like insights and things that were going along in the midst of the journey. That’s the only reason I bring up the past life thing, is because maybe things that are happening in this life and you think, “Oh, I’ve got negative karma,” it’s not negative karma at all. This was more concrete, in-depth of those practices that I couldn’t face on an etheric level, it became more concrete, of that fear and in your face and these things feeding on your flesh and coming to that compassion and to see beyond that.

Rick: Interesting. There’s that saying, “The world is my guru,” pretty much whatever happens is happening for a reason.

Swami G: Yeah, and it’s not always out of some negative karma, some things that are happening, it’s there to trigger other stuff. And one time when I was in India I went up to where the Dalai Lama is and everything and there was one of the Tibetan monks there and I’ve seen him on a few videos, and he looked and he did my astrology and said, “Yes, you were a monk.” And he said, “It’s very unusual to see a woman that had been a monk,” and I said, “Yes, I know it, I know all about it,” and I said, “But we have to be reborn somewhere, don’t we?”

Rick: Incidentally, I missed an opportunity a few minutes ago when you had just been talking about your awakening and how there was absolutely no one there anymore, and then in the next sentence practically you said, “Can you turn the fan on? I’m roasting.” And the obvious question to have asked at that point would have been, “Who’s roasting?” Because it sort of helps to, I’m not challenging you, I’m saying it would help to elucidate this paradox of not being anyone and yet being someone.

Swami G: Yes, just because you’re feeling what’s going with the body doesn’t mean one is attached to the body or thinks that they are the body.

Rick: Right. So if you were to get really literal about it, you could have said, “This body is hot, turn the fan on,” but it’s kind of an awkward way of speaking.

Swami G: Right, well people look at you, and you have to learn to do that, you know, a long time ago it was just, “The form is this,” or “The form is that,” and then people look at you very weird, and so you have to relearn how to communicate in the world. So many things, there are things said and people think that it’s done, you know, many times speaking say, “This one,” and they think it’s some affected thing, but no, it’s the reality, it’s not that there’s any “I,” so one again has to relearn to use general conversation, otherwise people think, “Oh, it’s some big affect and they’re trying to be this or trying to be that,” and it’s not that at all, it’s just that that reality has changed, the consciousness has changed, the awareness and the living experience has changed.

Rick: Yeah, I read a very amusing thing a while back, a long piece actually, about 40 pages, rebutting the sort of neo-Advaita approach to things, but one of the points the guy made was that there’s a certain blend or certain type of person who won’t engage in ordinary conversation but it’s a sort of a spiritual one-upmanship, you know, where you say, “Pass the salt,” and they say, “Who wants the salt?”

Swami G:Right, the neo-Advaita police, yes, I’ve been on some of those sites where the neo-Advaita police hang out, and that’s just another intellectual game and the words are not it.

Rick: No, they’re not, and I’m glad you’re saying that because I can’t say anything about anyone’s path or experience with certainty, but I get the sense that many people get the intellectual understanding of Advaita, at least they feel they do, and then they kind of adopt that, mistake that for the realization itself. When I was 18 years old I could get up and rap for hours in various chemically-induced states about all kinds of far-out stuff, but that was a far cry from actually any genuine or significant realization. And the unfortunate thing is that people who do this very often feel like they’ve arrived and there’s nothing more to gain and the path is over and seeking is a waste of time, and it’s this whole rationalization thing.

Swami G: Well, exactly, and they’re still in suffering, and they don’t get that. And I think that’s a very, very sad thing to hear. Actually it’s devastating for people to say, “I’m already that and there’s nothing to get.” Well then there’s no hope.

Rick: Right, I mean on some level it’s true, fine, but that’s just a concept.

Swami G: Exactly, it’s a concept and it’s so different when everything blows out. And it’s so difficult to use any speech to try to talk about that which is beyond speech, beyond mind. All speech is duality, all speech comes from a dualistic, perceptual place. All speech is dualistic in nature, and even when you say that there’s not something, first the mind constructs what’s there and then tries to erase it. So it’s really, really difficult. I had a writing that I had done that’s talking about being in the now, and if you’re reflecting on this then you’ve already lost the now because now you’re trying to reflect in the past, and you can’t do that.

Rick: Can’t you reflect on the now in the now?

Swami G: Yeah, you can’t because then you’ve already missed it.

Rick: It’s the old finger pointing at the moon analogy, you know, people mistake the finger for the moon. Words are just a pointer.

Swami G: Exactly, words are not it, words are never it. It’s impossible for words to be it, because that absolute and that which is, it is prior to words. One can’t use words to describe it, it’s indescribable, really.

Rick: But I don’t think this would be a very interesting interview if we just stood here and stared at each other.

Swami G: Exactly, exactly. Well, words have their place in the transient thing, but the point is people have to have the direct falling away experience where everything deconstructs. And there is such a difference, and I just want to say there’s such a difference in oneness where I’m one with everything, and people mistake oneness in that first opening and think that that’s it. They think that’s realization, but it’s not. It is just again between night and day, but if you haven’t experienced the other part, you can really be taken for a ride and think that you’re there. And in so many places along the way where you could self-proclaim and say this is realization, because you don’t know any better, it’s so expanded, so expanded.

Rick: Did you ever hear of the book Halfway Up the Mountain by Mary?

Swami G: Yes, I have. Very good book.

Rick: Yes, great. I’m slowly working my way through it, but it’s an excellent book. I don’t know what the big rush is for people to say that they’ve arrived. Maybe they just want to stop making efforts to progress further, but I’d much rather err on the side of considering myself less evolved than more evolved than I actually am.

Swami G: Exactly, and you know, sometimes I say this is what the benefit is in having a satguru, because if you have a genuine satguru they know the lay of the land and they know the different samadhi experiences and what they are and what they’re not. It’s like when everything fell away, I wrote to my guru and he was asking, “Are you convinced of this?” I told him, “No, I’m not convinced, because to be convinced of something there has to be doubt somewhere, and in this there is no doubt, no possibility for doubt, it just is, and it’s more real than anything that is seen in the transient world, it’s absolutely real.”

Rick: So in other words, conviction is a dualistic concept and its polar opposite is doubt, and if you’re sitting in either one of those you’re not there.

Swami G: Exactly, and so he saw what was being said and he said, “Well, what you’re saying is the Ashtavakra Gita.” I said, “What’s the Ashtavakra Gita? I have no clue, I haven’t read any non-dual texts, I have no idea.” And so I got the Ashtavakra Gita and I had gotten the Vivek Chudamani at that point.

Rick: Shankara’s best jewel of discrimination.

Swami G: Yes, yes. They were at that point like reading diaries, you open it up and it’s not as speculative, it’s like, “Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, that’s all you can say, yes!” At that point, if somebody has had a real falling away, I think that reading those texts at that point is beneficial, because it helps to keep the mind from wanting to try to go back in and reconstruct. And this is what happens sometimes, people will have a genuine falling away but then ego comes back and reconstructs, because it’s trying to make sense out of this.

Rick: So they lose it?

Swami G: They lose it, yes, because they are trying to fit it in a box, because at that point it’s such a different feeling, it’s not what one would call your “normal” consciousness. And so then sometimes people will want to try to box it and look at it, but then they pull back into ego, they pull back into that personification again. So what I tell people that are really genuinely having a blowing out or imploding experience and falling away, to at that point read the Ashtavakra and you’re not trying to convince yourself something, but it just allows the mind not to try to reconstruct and to look, it just helps it to settle.

Rick: It’s more of a confirmation or something.

Swami G: Yes, it’s more of a confirming and then the mind doesn’t have to seek that this is something odd, and try to logically figure it out, because there is no logic to figure it out at that point.

Rick: How about the Brahma Sutras, did you ever read those and find those helpful at that stage?

Swami G: Some of those can be somewhat helpful as well, but I really do say the Vivek Chudamani is really, really excellent, and the Ashtavakra, those are some of the favorites here that I give out to people.

Rick: So in terms of your story, we kind of left you there on the Ganges having had this awakening, but now obviously you’re in the United States and you’ve been teaching, and so how did that evolve, how did you go from that realization into whatever transpired afterwards?

Swami G: Well, what happened with that was when I had talked to my guru and he was thoroughly assured that this was realization and it was stable and it wasn’t going anywhere, there was no rerouting into persona at that point, then he just told me point blank, “Well, it’s time for you to go forward and to be a guru.” There were no ifs, ands or buts about it, this was his last admonition and so that’s what I did.

Rick: Did you feel any trepidation or did you feel like, “Yeah, he’s right, I’m ready to do this”?

Swami G: Well, no, at that point you really don’t want to do it, because you know what the journey entails. It’s not like when you’re in the ego and thinking, “Oh, it would be great to be a guru and I want to be a teacher and it would be so affirming,” and so all of that stuff, there’s no one there to have those types of things. It’s not a feather in the cap. So it was the last admonition of my teacher to bring that forward, and so that’s what I have done. I’ll go a little bit back, we were reading the story of Sundar Preeti and what was happening with him and how I wound up taking sannyas.

Rick: He was the Naga Baba.

Swami G: The Naga Baba, yes, and my protector there. And he had, like I said, a great deal of respect and he could see what was here and he knew the depths of what was here. He wanted to take me up into the Himalayas, he had some contact with the ashram up there and wanted me to teach, is what the plan was. That was what he wanted to see. And unfortunately, he had a massive heart attack and it was very interesting. He was sitting there making this jholi, a bag, a sadhu bag for me, the day before he passed. And he was sitting there and I had a photo, I had taken a photo of him sitting there and working on this. He goes, “Don’t you like this? Isn’t this lovely? He’s making this for me.” After he passed, I had the film developed around that photo and that was exactly the position he was sitting in when he keeled over and had his heart attack. Exactly that was working on the jholi again. And around the photo, you can see around the edges of the photo, like he was already pulling away. It was a very interesting phenomenon and that’s the only picture that had that on it. All the rest of the film, it wasn’t something with the light of the camera or something that was, you could see that.

Rick: It’s interesting that you found him to be so… Your take on this guy is a little bit of a revelation for me because when I see documentaries about these Babas smoking marijuana all day and everything, I think, “Yeah, they’re just kind of mixed up guys. They’re dull, they’re lost, this is not a genuine spiritual path.” And so, once again, I am exposed to a perspective that shatters that conception, at least in the case of this fellow.

Swami G: Yeah, well, in this case of this fellow, he was very genuine in his things. But there are a lot of them and I make no bones about it, that 90% of them there, all they’re doing is smoking ganja and talking bullshit and giving me bakshish money, money, money, money, chasing everybody. And really, in that tradition, you’re not supposed to be asking for bakshish. You’re not supposed to be chasing people and asking for that. That’s what we call a “nakli baba” or a fake, a fake nakli baba, and that’s not part of the tradition. And when I was there, we would sometimes go to Haridwar and I would sit by the banks of the Ganges and I would be in meditation and I would be doing mantras, etc., and people would come by, they would see that you are doing sincerely practices, and they would leave offerings of a little bit of little paisa, little money, some fruits, you know, they would leave offerings there. And that’s really the way that traditionally it should be done. I did run across a few genuine babas, but unfortunately, 90% of them are not. They will do things, they will drug each other, you know, I’ve seen them put something in another one’s chai, drug them, steal everything they have. So many foreigners go there and they want to become a baba, they just want to be smoking toad.

Rick: They just want to hang out and grow their hair and smoke toads.

Swami G: Exactly, and exchange one story for another bigger story. You know, now I’m the story, I’m this baba and I’m this and I’m that, and all of that other drama. But anyway, so Sundar Puri was there and he was a big drama king in his way, but he was very genuine also. And the night before he passed he was making the rice and dal and everything, kitchari, and was yelling, “Ganga, you come over here,” you know, he gave me the name Ganga, “Ganga, you come here, you come now.” And he rushed down and grabbed my arm, and when he grabbed my arm, he touched my arm, it went through, immediately I knew, “You’re a dead man.”

Rick: Oh, interesting.

Swami G: “You’re a dead man,” I just knew immediately, it was just so point blank.

Rick: You knew he was going to die.

Swami G: I knew, and I told him the next day, “Whatever you do, please don’t smoke. Please don’t smoke, whatever you do.” But of course, here come all these roving babas.

Rick: Right, it probably wouldn’t have made any difference at that point.

Swami G: No, at that point he was, you know, and that was his life choice, and he’s driving me baba-like, big smoking. And unfortunately what they had was they smoked this hashish without any tobacco and put it in a pipe with tin foil on top, so it was very, very strong, and it caused a heart arrhythmia and he had a massive heart attack.

Rick: Oh, interesting, yeah.

Swami G: But he left his body in the middle of the Ganges. We were crossing the bridge and as he was leaving his body I was just whispering in his ear, “It’s all Burman, it’s only Burman, you’re only Burman.”

Rick: So you mean you were trying to get him to a doctor or something?

Swami G: We were, yes, yes. But he left his body, he expired, he left his body right when we got to the middle of the Ganges.

Rick: Interesting.

Swami G: Yeah.

Rick: So how did you embark on your teaching career? You came back from India, and feel free to add more if I’m leaving something out by jumping ahead to this question, but you came back from India and what did you do, put up a poster? How did you let anybody know? I guess you were wearing yellow robes and that would arouse people’s curiosity, but how did you begin to find your students? How did they begin to find you?

Swami G: Well, actually I had started to get on the internet and just started to meet people and they were asking about Kundalini and stuff, and really that’s the focal point where I’m at, is working with people that are having these Kundalini experiences. Because there are very few that know how to get it to balance and how to bring them from point A to point B and continue their journey forward. So yeah.

Rick: I’ll keep that resource in mind because every now and then I run across somebody who is definitely having Kundalini problems and they don’t know quite what to do.

Swami G: It can be devastating, you can think you’re going crazy, because what Kundalini is there to do is to bring all this stuff up, all this repressed stuff and all of these things, all of the fear mode, everything, to be put in your face. So it’s really there in your face 24/7 and you have to understand what the process is and how it can be used to further your journey. Either that or you can just get lost in things, it can be just very difficult.

Rick: I heard a guy the other day say, I was listening to an interview and he said, “Oh, everybody has to go through a dark night of the soul if they don’t arrive at a genuine awakening.” And I suppose someone might say the same of Kundalini, everybody has to go through this Kundalini stuff. And yet on the other hand you do meet people and listen to people who seem to have had a genuine awakening and have stabilized it, who never really went through very much of that sort of thing. So what would you say to that?

Swami G: Yeah, I’m not going to discount and say it has to be only one way. Absolutely not.

Rick: And I suppose wouldn’t it also be true that a person … I’ve been meditating for 43 years now or something and I’ve gone through all kinds of stuff, spontaneous fast breathing and the body shaking and all kinds of things, but for me it was never that big a deal, never really unpleasant. For all I know maybe there’s stuff yet to come that’s going to be really dramatic, but it’s never been a big deal, but I presume that there’s been some awakening of Kundalini anyway. So maybe for some people it depends on how many roadblocks there are to clear away and if you have a lot of stuff that really has to be burned through and if you’re going to go through it quickly then it’s going to be really intense and others may not have that much to clear or maybe their path is such that they’re just moving more slowly.

Swami G: Exactly, exactly, and it has to do also with how much you surrender into it as well and how easy going you are with it. If you want to fight it you’re going to lose.

Rick: I see, right. So how many students do you have now?

Swami G: Oh, that’s hard to say.

Rick: Not that numbers are really important, I don’t think there’s any correlation between the numbers of students one has and the significance of what one is teaching. People have different roles, some have thousands, some have a handful.

Swami G: Oh well, there’s definitely not thousands, I can tell you that for sure. Maybe around a hundred, close to a hundred, but people come and go and so it’s kind of fluctuating.

Rick: Do you have a certain core group that lives with you and studies more closely?

Swami G: There are a few, you know, and there’s a few more that are wanting to start coming here. Like I said, I would like to eventually get an ashram in place where we can have more hands on and people can come for a time and get some more depth. But really, even the ones that are in the other side of the world, we stay in touch through Skype sometimes. Sometimes they’ll pick up a phone and they’ll just call me and I’m available for any of my students.

Rick: We’ll put all that on the website by the way, where this interview is going to be and people can get in touch with you if they want to. And you mentioned that a number of your students have awakened. Would that be with a capital A or do you feel like there’s been some significant awakenings but there are others yet to come?

Swami G: Oh, there are some that have really fallen away in their stages and they’re in the process of settling and things. And some are in the process of falling away, more and more coming forward. There will be more. There have been a few that have had glimpses and awakened but then they didn’t follow through on what was given. And unfortunately, ego came back and once again covered over things. People think that all they have to do is have this glimpse and that’s enough. I’ve heard some say, “Well, first you have the awakening and then you go back and work on yourself.” Well, no, it’s really a full awakening and there’s nobody there to work on at that point. But if there’s somebody there to work on, then one has had a glimpse and it’s covered over and yes, then there’s more to do again. Perhaps if you go forward it will progress and there will be another falling away.

Rick: Well, a glimpse is like smelling dinner cooking in the next room, it’s not going to necessarily fill you up, right?

Swami G: Well, exactly. And that’s why I like to pass on one of Ramana’s favorite books, which was the Tripura Rahasya that talks about the different levels and the different things that take place. And you can have a glimpse and may be able to talk about it but you’re really not liberated because the mind is reconstructed and is going again.

Rick: That sounds like one I’d like to read, I’ll email you about that.

Swami G: Yes, I’ll give you that one, it’s a good book.

Rick: Yeah, we can put a reference to it on the website too, where I put these interviews.

Swami G: Okay, yeah, that’s a good one for people to have. People don’t understand too, like with Sankhacharya, when things first fell away for him, then it was absolute is the only thing that’s there, and that’s the immediate perception and living reality. But the further one goes, there’s a settling process that begins to take place and the world comes back into view. And it was at the end of his life when he wrote the Ode to Shakti.

Rick: Are you talking about Shankara himself or one of the current Shankaracharyas?

Swami G: No, no, no.

Rick: Shankara, Adi Shankara.

Swami G: Adi Shankara, yes. He wrote the Ode to Shakti afterwards, later in the journey. And that’s what happens. I mean, first, the only thing that’s real, and this is why you’ll say that, is the world has no reality at all. But as one goes and the depth comes, then the world comes back into view. And that’s why they say, “Before there’s mountains and afterwards there’s mountains.” And then it becomes the play of God. One says then at that point, “It’s the play of God.” And so yeah, there is layers and levels and more deepening and more knowledge and wisdom that comes forward. And I’m not talking about earthly knowledge or something else. I mean, it’s just a process that continues to take place.

Rick: I’m glad you brought that up. And I think perhaps that a lot of the current Neo-Advaita teachers have had that sort of first blush of realization where the Absolute seems to be the be-all and end-all, and many of them actually explicitly say, “There is no God, there is no reincarnation, there are no levels, everything is kind of negated.” And I have this nagging feeling that that’s not really a totally mature realization, but I’m a little trepidatious of interviewing some of these people because I don’t feel completely qualified to counter those notions.

Swami G: Well, they are where they are, that’s all. They are where they are in the process and that’s fine. I understand that because it’s something that is experienced. You know, it’s such a, again, another dichotomy. One can say God is all that exists and then on the other hand there is no God. For God to exist there has to be something other than, and there is nothing other than. So again, you can see the two sides of the same coin.

Rick: And I’ve mentioned this quote in a few interviews recently, but I heard someone say that, quoting Nisargadatta, having said that, “One good measure of enlightenment is the degree to which you’re comfortable with paradox and ambiguity.”

Swami G: Ah, yeah, there’s a lot of paradox, the whole thing. And you know, it’s after realization there’s even the greater mystery.

Rick: Yeah. So are you implying that in terms of your own realization that there has been a continued deepening and unfolding and clarification? Do you still have a sense of progress taking place and discoveries being made?

Swami G: Well, not really progress and discoveries. I can’t really say that it’s like that. It’s just, how would you say it, because that unchanging never changes. It’s not that the unchanging gets bigger or gets different or gets personified or something like that. It’s not that at all.

Rick: It would have to change in order to do so, and that would be a contradiction in terms of …

Swami G: Right, and there is no change. There is that one without a second, indivisible.

Rick: But then there is the world, and so could you not say that the appreciation of the world or the richness of the world …

Swami G: Yes, it comes back into view and one enjoys it for what it is. Like I said, during the journey all I wanted was to be out of the world. I prayed to be out of the world. I wanted nothing to do with that. But true liberation is coming to that point, whether if you’re incarnate it’s great and if you’re not it’s great too, it doesn’t matter. It’s all quite fine and wonderful in what it is.

Rick: And so in your experience, since you’re in the world experiencing things, having also transcended the world, do you feel like there is a refinement in terms of your appreciation of the world, your sensory perception, your emotions, your degree of love, or any of those relative qualities? Do they continue to unfold or deepen or refine?

Swami G: Well, I would say things shift. When you’re in the beginning stages of it, everything is love, bliss, love, bliss, love, bliss, but then one goes beyond that into stillness, into stillness and quietude. And that overwhelming love, bliss, love, bliss, love, bliss, gives way to this stillness. And so yeah, it’s different. You can’t say that it’s not loving, but it’s not this projection of passion that people are seeing with people bouncing off the wall in the oneness state and that first flush that happens.

Rick: No, I don’t mean it in that sense, I don’t mean in terms of some kind of flashy, tumultuous emotional sort of thing. I mean in terms of increasing subtlety, increasing subtlety of appreciation.

Swami G: Yes, there is an increasing subtlety of appreciation, and one goes back into life, you know, and it doesn’t mean the emotions have ended, there is pure emotion. But the difference in this, between realization and not realization, is when there is emotion, it’s pure emotion, and it’s there in the moment, and when that moment passes, there is no mind that’s cranking on it to keep it in place. So yes, one can still have anger, one can have all the normal emotions, you know, all of that still can be in place.

Rick: But they lose their grip.

Swami G: But there is no grip behind. It’s only during that moment when that event is actually taking place, and the minute it’s over, again, the water just stills, that’s it. There’s nothing to grasp onto or cling to or reject, it just is what it is.

Rick: Because I would suggest that if that were not the case, then you wouldn’t really be living in the now.

Swami G: Well, exactly.

Rick: If you got angry an hour ago and you’re still angry, then where are you now?

Swami G: Exactly, exactly.

Rick: Well, do you feel like there’s anything that you would like to add that I haven’t thought to ask you or that you haven’t had a chance to say?

Swami G: No, if you don’t ask, then nothing comes up.

Rick: Yeah, that’s the old saying, and I could probably sit here and ask you questions all night, but we’re kind of approaching the two hour mark and it’s probably a good time to wrap it up. But this has been very enjoyable, and maybe in a year or so we can have another session and maybe I will have thought of new questions, although there’s nothing new under the sun, but it’s very enjoyable talking to you.

Swami G: Well, it’s very nice to speak with you too, and don’t be a stranger, don’t think that you need to just sit here and call me for an interview, pick up the phone, say hello any time.

Rick: Sure, I’d like to, and maybe sometimes I’ll have questions or experiences or something that I would appreciate your feedback on.

Swami G: Sure, any time, happy to do that.

Rick: So thank you very much Swamiji, and I guess when people are feeling especially respectful do they call you Swamiji-G? Because you have to add that G on there.

Swami G: No, just me, or the big O. Just me, just the big zero, nothing to get, nowhere to go. People strive to be something but you’ve got to come to be nothing and that’s all great.

Rick: It’s like that old joke about the rabbi and the cantor, you ever hear that one there?

Swami G: No.

Rick: They’re in the synagogue and the rabbi is saying, “Oh, I am nothing, I am nothing,” and then the cantor sort of gets into it and starts saying, “I am nothing, I am nothing,” and the janitor overhears him and he starts saying, “I am nothing, I am nothing,” and so the cantor says to the rabbi, “Look who thinks he’s nothing.”

Swami G: That’s a good one, that’s a good one.

Rick: I think it’s the cantor, maybe I’m using the wrong term, but anyway you get the point.

Swami G: Yeah, that’s a good one.

Rick: All right, well thanks. So I’ll wrap it up by just concluding and saying that you’ve been listening to another episode, if we call it that, of Buddha at the Gas Pump. The implication of that title, by the way, having been to … and I didn’t dream it up, a young friend of mine did, but the implication being the juxtaposition of enlightenment and ordinary life, people living in the ordinary world that we live in having spiritual awakenings and that’s becoming more and more common.

Swami G: It’s a great title and that’s what it is, you know, the path is not separate from life and that’s one thing that I give here. We don’t do practices that are separate from life, the practices are incorporated into life and life is the practice, absolutely. So I love that, yeah, Buddha is not something we don’t float ten feet off the ground and one is still within the normal flow of society. You know, the only thing that’s changed is the consciousness has made a radical change and the blinders are off, that’s all.

Rick: And next week, if the schedule sticks to what I think it’s going to be, I’m going to be interviewing a young man who is a musician and claims that he had AIDS and got over it as a result of his spiritual awakening, so that will be interesting.

Swami G: That sounds like a very interesting one and I wouldn’t discount it, I don’t discount anything.

Rick: Yeah, neither do I, and I haven’t had a chance to really talk to him yet but we’ll see what his story is. So thank you very much.

Swami G: hank you, namaste.

Rick: Namaste, we’ll be in touch.

Swami G: Yes, absolutely, thank you.