Robert Wolfe Transcript

Robert Wolfe interview

Summary:

Rick: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer and my guest this week is Robert Wolf. Welcome Robert.

Robert: Thank you.

Rick: Thank you. Last week, if you were watching these in sequence, I interviewed Robert’s friend, Natalie Gray. Did you get a chance to watch that by any chance, Robert?

Robert: I haven’t yet, but I will.

Rick: Okay, no problem. Just wondering what you thought of it. One thing that people asked after the Natalie interview, Natalie said that when she first sat with you, you asked her three questions and she had an awakening as a result of that. I neglected to ask what the three questions are, and everybody has been sending in emails saying, “All right, what are the three questions?”

Robert: It wasn’t the three questions that are pre-programmed exactly. It might be a bit of an exaggeration to say that that was her awakening. I have a feeling from the time that I met Natalie that she was pretty well prepared to thoroughly understand what we were going to be talking about. In any case, I did ask some things, and I don’t remember what the three questions were. Can I ask her?

Rick: Sure, go ahead.

Robert: Natalie, what were the three questions?

Natalie: If you’re enlightened, what is that?

Robert: If you’re not enlightened, what is that? Is that a question?

Natalie: Yeah.

Robert: Okay.

Natalie: If you’re not enlightened, what is that?

Robert: If you’re not enlightened, what is that?

Natalie: If that’s the Absolute both times, what’s the difference?

Robert: If that’s the Absolute both times, what’s the difference?

Rick: Could you elaborate on what you meant by those three questions?

Robert: What was the first question?

Rick: If you’re enlightened, what is that?

Natalie: What is it that’s enlightened?

Robert: Oh, in other words, when we say someone’s enlightened, what do we mean by that?

Rick: Okay, that’s a good place to start actually.

Robert: And if we say they’re not enlightened, what do we mean by that?

Robert: And therefore, where’s the difference in our perception of that?

Rick: Right.

Rick: So how would you answer those questions?

Robert: Well, you know, from the classical point of view, in other words, the traditional point of view, it’s said that there’s no such thing as enlightenment.

Rick: Right.

Robert: And the second question, tell me that one again.

Rick: If you’re not enlightened, what is that?

Robert: Okay, so the other thing is that people assume that there’s something in enlightenment that is radically different from their present, current state of being.

Rick: Yeah.

Robert: So basically those are the two questions, and the question is, “What is there between that that’s creating a problem?”

Rick: So are you saying that because people assume that enlightenment is radically different than what they’re experiencing already, that they always sort of overlook it because they’re expecting something radically different? Is that what you’re saying?

Robert: That’s right.

Rick: Now, of course, some people do report pretty radical shifts. Do you suppose it depends upon whether they have sort of gradually built up to the precipice of that? Like in Natalie’s case, you said she was quite prepared, whereas someone else, they might be in some deep depression or muddled state, and for some reason they automatically snap into it, and it’s like this night and day difference?

Robert: Well, you know, I think there’s a bit of mythology, you might say, in the spiritual material, the spiritual literature. And what people get from that is sometimes an exaggerated idea of what enlightenment entails. And so comparisons are made between the experience that one is actually having and the conception that someone has of what ought to be happening, what they think is the state that they should be feeling. And of course, the enlightened point of view is that whatever you’re feeling is that.

Rick: Yeah, but to me that’s like saying whatever you’re looking at is atoms. I look at this piece of paper, it’s nothing but atoms. But that doesn’t mean I see it as atoms. I don’t have the electron microscope or whatever that would enable me to see it as atoms. So I mean, you could say all seven billion people in the world, and not only people, but cats and dogs and everything else, whatever they’re seeing, it’s that. But isn’t it another matter altogether for them to realize that it’s that, to really truly awaken to that?

Robert: And that basically is all that it’s about, just that, just recognizing that what we’re seeing is what’s actually to be seen, that there’s nothing more mysterious about what’s present than what we’re seeing, recognizing. The world’s seeing the truth.

Rick: And what would you consider to be the key to that recognition?

Robert: Well, there’s two things that I emphasize in my discussions with people. And the first thing is that it’s very important for a person to recognize that this that we’re talking about, this essence, must be here now. It can’t be any other place. It must be here now. So there’s no separation to start with. It’s clear that you’re not apart from what you’re looking for when you realize that the truth is it must be here now. It can’t be some other place from the standpoint of what these teachings are telling us. And the second thing is that when that becomes clear, when it becomes clear that this and that are in no way separate, that there’s no disconnection between those two things, then what develops in time as one integrates that awareness is that the sense of being a separate individual dissolves into that awareness. So those are the two things I think that are most important for people to recognize in these discussions that I have with people. First of all, what you’re looking for is here now. Secondly, there is no separate individual.

Rick: Why would you say that it takes time as opposed to someone just sort of having the recognition right here now, or hearing you say that and saying, “Okay, great. Everything that’s here now, this is it, and I must be done because I’m just accepting that notion.”

Robert: Well, you might say the question there would be who’s accepting it? So in other words, the idea we have is that there’s some separate individual here who’s going to get something that’s out there, that’s separate and apart. And again, the thing that I particularly emphasize is that there’s no separation, no division whatsoever. So there’s not a me here that’s going to get something out there. The me and that are not separate to begin with.

Rick: But could there be a distinction between understanding that intellectually or even having an intuitive feel for it, and then really living it? The title of your book is “Living Non-Duality.”

Robert: That’s right. Yes. You know, people often say, “I have an intellectual understanding of this, and that’s all that I have.” And, you know, you have to start somewhere, so an intellectual understanding is a suitable place to start. If this truth really makes sense to you, to the extent that the idea of being someone separate, an individual, dissolves into that awareness, then that’s all there is to it. From then on you’re living non-duality.

Rick: So what you just said was, if this really makes sense to you, then to the extent that this individual conception dissolves into � I’m losing your exact words � then you’re living non-duality. But it sounds to me like the word “if” is very significant there, because there could be a great range of meanings in the phrase, “if this really makes sense to you.” You know, I mean, there are a lot of people kicking around these days who read a book like yours, or go to a satsang or something, and what they hear makes sense, but they kind of jump to the conclusion of, “Well, that’s it. This makes sense to me, therefore I am kind of living it now.” And I hate to be so skeptical-sounding, but I’m afraid I am, and I bring this point up in a lot of interviews. I’m not qualified to judge any particular individual’s experience, by any means, but I just get the feeling that there’s a lot of substitution of intellectual understanding for the actual living of non-duality. There could be a much deeper, richer, fuller, more genuine experience than a lot of people are having, and a lot of people are kind of missing that boat because they think they’ve already got it. Do you agree?

Robert: Well, again, Rick, when the truth of this is truly understood, and the idea of being a separate self dissolves into that, then that’s all we’re talking about. And so, you know, obviously there are people to whom this truth does not penetrate to the point to which the idea of being a separate individual disappears. It doesn’t happen that way for everyone, that’s true.

Rick: Now in your own case, of course, you lived the better part of your life without that understanding and experience.

Robert: That’s true. And perhaps we could actually retrace a little bit here and get into a biographical sketch, but as I recall, you went through a divorce and then you went off and lived in the forest for a few years in a trailer and took nice walks every day and did a lot of reading and meditating and whatnot, and then the truth dawned to you. Could you elaborate a bit on that whole sequence of events?

Robert: Yeah, maybe I’ll give you a little more background than maybe you might have gotten from the book. In fact, I could start at the beginning if you want.

Rick: Please, yes, yes, absolutely.

Robert: Well, I was born in Ohio and my mother was what I would call a congenital Baptist. And my father said that he was an atheist, so obviously they didn’t get along too well. And I was raised primarily by my mother, so I went to church with my mother and was baptized when I was 13. And by the time I became 20, I became an atheist, seeing the hypocrisy in the church. And when I was about in my 30s working as a reporter in Manhattan, there were a number of Zen Roshis — this was in the 60s — coming over from Japan to open centers in the U.S. And they’d usually stop in Manhattan and give a talk before they went inland. So as a reporter, I covered some of those talks and was very impressed with the — not only the persons, but with what they had to say. So I read Alan Watts’ “The Way of Zen,” and I was impressed with Zen because it seemed to me like it was a religion that wanted to put itself out of business. So about that same time, my career came to an end in New York, and I decided I would come out to California. And I landed in Berkeley and stayed with a friend there for a while, and I went down to the university campus and asked around if there was a Zen farming commune, because being from Ohio, I kind of wanted to return to my roots. And somebody told me about a place in Mendocino, which is about 150 miles north of San Francisco, which isn’t a place in existence anymore, a place called at that time Big River Farm, which was just outside of Mendocino. And so I took a bus up there and liked what I saw and became a member of the community there. There was about maybe a dozen of us young people, no children, living in a — there was a man who had — am I going —

Rick: No, you’re doing fine.

Robert: There was a man who had been teaching English to inmates in that area, and he met the daughter of some wealthy oil people and married her, and they bought this old farm on a hillside there outside Mendocino, and he tore down all the buildings and, using Japanese tools, rebuilt them all in a Japanese village style. He had been to San Francisco Zen Center and was very impressed with the Japanese part of Buddhism. So we lived in this commune. We had no teacher. We were using Suzuki Roshi’s “Zen Mind, Beginner’s Mind” as our text, sitting meditation two periods a day, two periods in the morning and two periods in the evening. Anyway, I lived there for about three years at the Zen farming commune and got about all I could get out of the Zen teachings. So I moved into the town of Mendocino. We had an organic garden and orchard there at the farm. So when I moved into Mendocino, I started a landscape gardening business, and after about six years of that, I met my second wife, who was a schoolteacher, and we married, and my mother gave me some money, and I had a house built. And because there’s about 38 inches of rain in Mendocino in the three months of winter, I was out of work a good part of the winter, which didn’t satisfy my wife too much because she had a steady job. So I quit that work and became an agent for an insurance company which had a financial planning practice that I had in a nearby town. Anyway, after about ten years of that life, my wife decided she wanted to be free again, and so we separated and divorced, and I bought a camper van with the equity from when we sold our house and moved out onto some property in the redwood forest with some friends. And I realized, Rick, that I had some unfinished business, that while I had been very interested in what Zen had to teach, that I hadn’t really gotten to the bottom of what these teachings were telling me. So I went to the bookstore. Again, am I going on too long with this?

Rick: No, this is fine. If I feel like we’re dragging, I’ll ask you a question, but this is good.

Robert: So I went to the bookstore, and at that time in a bookstore there was maybe a couple of feet of books that had to do with enlightenment. Now you go into a bookstore, there’s a whole wing of such books.

Rick: Right. This whole bookstore is about it.

Robert: That’s right. So I bought some books on enlightenment, and there was one book that had interviews with various teachers. One interview was with Krishnamurti, and the preface to the interview talked about how he had dissolved the order of the star, and that impressed me. So I called down here to Ojai to the Krishnamurti Foundation and asked what books I might read about him. And I read his three-volume biography in which there are much of his teachings. So that was what I was doing during that three-year period in the forest. I was reading, at that time, primarily Krishnamurti, but I was also reading some of Ken Wilber’s writings and also Fritz Alf Kaeper’s Tao Physics. And so, as you mentioned, I was living in a camper van, reading, contemplating, taking long, long walks. And at the end of, in this case, a three-year period, everything suddenly fell into place.

Rick: So how much can you elaborate on that “suddenly fell into place”? What can you say about that?

Robert: I can say some things about it. Because I had a camper van, I was doing house-sitting, so I was at someone’s house, sitting near the fireplace one evening, probably reading Krishnamurti. But in any case, I had been taking a lot of notes during that period. I’d wake up at night and sometimes write something down. So I got up and I went to the typewriter and I put a sheet of paper in and typed out a page. And when I read it back, I realized that I knew what it was that I was wanting to know. This wasn’t coming from someplace else, it was coming from here, that I had written this out. And so I was clear that, yes, okay, this tells me that I know what I want to know. So that basically was the moment when I realized that the seeking was ended.

Rick: And it sounds like it wasn’t a night-and-day difference, as you were saying earlier, people are expecting something flashy. It sounds like it was a subtle shift in confidence or understanding or something.

Robert: Yeah, yeah. Again, as I say, part of the mythology that’s grown up around enlightenment is that there’s going to be this explosive thing, all kinds of bizarre things going on and so on and so forth. But for different people, it’s a different unfolding. And for some people, it’s very quiet and subdued. Some people just say, “Uh-huh, that’s it.”

Rick: Yeah, I mean, in all fairness, it’s good to, well, you just said it, it can be almost an imperceptible shift. On the other hand, it can be kind of dramatic, but it doesn’t have to be one way or the other.

Robert: Exactly.

Rick: And if you’re expecting it to show up in a particular way and it doesn’t, you could always be disappointed.

Robert: People aren’t often disappointed. In other words, they say, “This is what I realized, but it’s not like Muktananda’s awakening, so it must not be real.”

Rick: Yeah. I was talking to someone just the other day who watches these interviews. And this person ran into her and she was kind of going on about, “Well, this person couldn’t be enlightened because she sells beef jerky for a living, and this person couldn’t be enlightened because he eats hamburgers.” And there was this whole structure they built up about how it had to look on the outside, and what kind of behavior the person had to perform, or else they couldn’t meet her criteria.

Robert: That’s right. You know, the idea is if you’re not wearing some kind of robes, speaking with an accent, and have some kind of strange name or something, you can’t be enlightened.

Rick: Yeah, as a matter of fact, about half an hour ago, I read an email that somebody sent me. They linked me to a YouTube video and they said, “This is what enlightenment looks like,” and it was an interview of a swami walking back and forth, waving a fan over his disciples. And I’ve heard of the guy, and he has a very good reputation. I’m sure he was a highly enlightened man. But I emailed back and said, “Well, you know, it may show up in a business suit. It doesn’t necessarily have to look like that.”

Robert: That’s right. In fact, now that you mention that, Papaji said when he went around India looking for teachers, he actually did see the ones in robes, and he said they were just gurus in business suits, meaning that that was what their interest was, was the business.

Rick: Yeah, businessmen in guru suits could also be.

Robert: Yeah, yeah.

Rick: How long ago was that, when you had that awakening and you were living in the camper?

Robert: Well, I’m not a good person for keeping track of time, but …

Rick: A decade ago, 20 years ago, right?

Robert: Yeah, by my calculations, I would say maybe 20, 22 years or so now.

Rick: I always ask this of people, to the point where some people are sick of me asking it, but others say they like to hear different people answer the same question. But since that time, do you feel there’s been an ongoing maturation or deepening or clarification? Could you elaborate on that, if so?

Robert: Well, you know, I think the thing is that every day there’s something kind of new to be seen. In other words, there’s a continual unfolding of appreciation, you might say, seeing things again in a new light. In fact, that’s one of the first things you notice after an awakening, is that you begin to see the things you’ve seen before, but you notice that you’re seeing them in a different light, a different perspective. And that continues. Things continue to unfold and continue to be seen in their significance. And then, too, you know, in my own case, and my own case is probably different than that of many people, but in my case, there probably hasn’t been a day since that awakening that I haven’t either read about, spoken about, or written about this matter. So for me, there’s always a sharp edge on this awareness, because I’m never far from being immersed in it. So I think that has something to do with whatever effectiveness I have in transmitting these teachings, is that I’ve read a lot of what’s out there, and I talk to people constantly about this matter, and I write about it regularly, so I think that helps me to develop an effectiveness.

Rick: I think it does, and as a matter of fact, some people buy books because I recommend them on this show. I recommend this one; it’s very good. It’s your book, “Living Non-Duality,” which I’ll have a link to on my website when we put this up. But unfortunately, with the time constraints in my life, I haven’t gotten too far into it.

Robert: Oh yeah.

Rick: It’s 450 pages, but I really do enjoy it. It’s very clearly written, and it’s the kind of book where you can just settle in and read a paragraph or two, or a page or two, and it has a nice, refining influence on one’s awareness.

Robert: Yeah, well there’s 230 monographs in there, and people tell me that often the way they read it is just kind of open it to something and read one of the monographs, because they’re all pretty short. But you’re the first media to know that I’ve got a third book coming out in about two weeks, and I think you’ll like this one too. It’s 145 pages, which is about a third of the size of “Living Non-Duality,” and I think it has most all of the essence of what’s taught in “Living Non-Duality” in this one brief book. “One Essence” is the title, and I just heard today that it’s available as of now, I’m told, and I think the cover price is $18. So I think you’ll find that one to be worthwhile too.

Rick: I’ll link to it. So would it be fair to say, based on what you just described about the refinement in your ability to express this over the last couple of decades, due to the fact that you’ve had your attention on it every day, is it just icing on the cake? I mean, would you say that basically with that awakening, that initial awakening or shift in understanding, that’s the foundation of it? Or anything that’s happened since then has just been a kind of a relative refinement?

Robert: Yeah. I think one thing people feel when they come to this truth is the desire to share it, and you see that in the lives of all the sages. I mean, what did they do with their life? So there is that impulse, and there was that impulse for me immediately. After Buddha’s awakening, he went to Deer Park and looked up his five former cronies and told them what he was seeing, and according to legend, they all woke up. But anyway, after my own awakening, I began to talk to some of the people I knew who were interested in this matter. That instinct was there right from the beginning, but that need not be the case. It’s just that from my own standpoint, I like to say, and it’s something I sometimes get a little flack over saying, but I like to say that nothing really matters. So in my case, I wake up in the morning, I put my feet on the floor, and for me, nothing really matters. How do I spend my day? All I feel like doing is basically talking about this with people or writing about it or somehow expressing it.

Rick: Yeah, that’s all I feel like doing either, but it doesn’t pay the bills, so I do other stuff for the good part of my day.

Robert: It doesn’t pay the bills, but I’m on social security, so I can.

Rick: Oh, there you go. Give me a few years, I’ll be there too.

Robert: Right.

Rick: That’s great. Aside from writing a few books, I guess you give satsangs in Ohio, do you? Well, first of all, I don’t like the idea of satsangs. The reason why I came to Ohio was because when that three-year period ended, I no longer felt the need to be living in a cold, rainy climate. And having a camper van, I decided I could live anywhere I wanted, so I thought, “Well, why not live in Ohio where Krishnamurti lived and died, and maybe there’s a group of people there who are familiar with his teachings, and I can relate to them,” because there wasn’t anybody where I was living that I could relate to in that respect. So I came to Ohio, and indeed there was a group of about 40 people or so who had been influenced by K. Many of them have died off because they’re an older group. One woman had even been there at the fireside thing in 1926 where he dissolved the Order of the Star. And then I started a couple of discussion groups of my own, but there’s some limitations to that sort of thing. And one of the things I discovered was–if you don’t mind my going into all this.

Rick: No, please.

Robert: One thing I discovered was I put some notices in some of those free handout newspapers that I was available to talk to people about non-duality one-on-one. So people would sometimes call me and come over to my house. And I found that to be the most effective way to transmit the dharma, to have face-to-face, one-on-one discussions with people. Then when my book came out, one of the board members of the Christian Murti Foundation read it and asked me to do something monthly. So I started a discussion group, which is still going on. And basically I just opened the meeting by reading something from one of the sages, and then it’s an open, free discussion. I participate in the discussion, but I’m not keen on the idea of sitting up in front of a group of people with flowers and a picture of my guru and incense and a 30 minute silent meditation before anybody says a word, and all that sort of stuff. So no, no. And I don’t travel, so I don’t do satsangs. That’s the answer to the question, “No, I don’t do satsang.”

Rick: Well, you know, the word “satsang” is just sort of a handy word. I’m not necessarily implying flowers and incense, or touching your feet or anything.

Robert: Yeah, right. But it can be that.

Rick: It can be that, yeah. I noticed in your book at one point you said, “Self-realization must be top priority. It must be on top of the priority of egoic fulfillment, otherwise egoic fulfillment will take priority.” The average person, of course, is supporting a family and doing all sorts of things. Do you feel that self-realization can become top priority, despite the pressures and distractions of ordinary life?

Robert: Well, you know, my situation is a little rarefied because the people that I talk with are people for whom this is a pretty sincere matter. In many cases, they’ve been looking at this for 20, 30, 40 years or so, you know. It’s something that already is a pretty, you might say, serious matter as far as they’re concerned. But yeah, I think one of the things that’s really a key element in this does have to do with the degree to which this is high on your agenda of matters to be attended to.

Rick: Yeah, and would you agree that perhaps you’re not implying that people should quit their jobs and desert their families, but it can somehow be made a priority, even if you are carrying on a load of ordinary worldly responsibilities?

Robert: Well, that’s true. You know, Buddha did quit his job as a prince and left his family. So, you know, in some cases that may be what’s necessary. But, you know, on the other hand, Ramana assured people that it’s okay to be a householder and to live this life too. The key really has to do with how one looks at the matter of time in regard to this issue. Krishnamurti talked a lot about that. The real problem associated with this is that the idea we have is that if I do this particular thing and do it right and do it long enough, then there’s going to be this benefit, this fruit. And of course, that’s the whole idea of any kind of practice. Any kind of practice says do this, do it right, do it long enough, and this is going to happen. So the effect of that is the idea that there’s something in the future that’s going to be present that’s not present now. And this is why the teachings of non-duality, I think, are so important, because they de-emphasize that. They stress that what you’re looking for must be here now. It’s not a matter of something that’s going to occur at some future point in time, because all you need to do is recognize that you’re not apart from what you’re looking for. But of course, coming from a Zen background, or at least having invested several years in that, you’re familiar with practice. That’s a very practice-oriented tradition. Are you sort of dismissing the value of practice?

Robert: Yes.

Rick: As a universal prescription, you would tell people not to bother with practices of any kind.

Robert: That’s right. If I had to put it that way, I would put it that way. Because, again, as I say, any kind of practice has the idea that there’s something that’s going to take place in the future, as a result, as a consequence of this practice. Go ahead.

Rick: Well, I suppose we can’t use the metaphor, the comparison between learning to play the piano and attaining enlightenment, because I have the ten fingers necessary to play the piano, but I can’t really play one. And if I started practicing, the more I practiced, the better I would get at playing one. So perhaps you could distinguish for us the difference between a worldly accomplishment like that and what you’re talking about.

Robert: Well, it’s obvious that to be able to sit down and play Chopin isn’t something that is available right now. In other words, in order to do that, or as Krishna really often pointed out, to learn a foreign language, you do have to practice that sort of thing. You do have to get involved in something that’s going to pay off in the future. And so we apply those same kind of ideas to the idea of awakening. But we need not do that. In fact, that’s going to create problems. What we have to recognize is that there’s something that’s here now, and that’s what we’re looking for, and it can’t be avoided. You can’t escape what it is you’re looking for. It’s here now.

Rick: Some people would argue that the innate ability to play the piano is here, in terms of our fingers and our brain, but that practice is going to develop the capacity to use that ability. And by comparison, some would argue that certainly that which we’re looking for is here now, when we speak of enlightenment, and the innate ability to be living that and experiencing that is here now, but obviously the vast majority of the 7 billion people in the world aren’t living it. So we would have to ask why, and then the question might come, well, because they haven’t cultured the clarity, and perhaps even the neurophysiological functioning to support the clarity that would allow them to recognize that, and that practices could in fact culture the neurophysiology and bring about greater clarity, so as to make that recognition probable. And in your own case, and in Natalie’s, there were years of practices and so on leading up to your awakening.

Robert: Well, you could call it a practice, but in some cases it may even be practice, but what it is really is interest in the matter, and what we have is an interest in the matter. Somehow we’ve heard about this subject, maybe we’ve read Sid Harth or something like that, and it’s inspired us to want to know more about what this matter of enlightenment is all about. And so we start to look into that, and we look at it in various different ways. In other words, we try a number of different ways to come to this truth, and so we might get involved in some kind of a practice or whatever, but it isn’t the practice that’s the key thing. The key thing is the real deep interest in the subject, and wanting to really penetrate through to the truth. When that’s present, it doesn’t matter what you do, you’re going to find your way there, whether you’re involved in a practice, whether it’s just a matter of reading things, whether it’s a matter of talking to people or listening to speakers or whatever, you’ll find your way there when the sincerity is deeply present.

Rick: And do you think that people are just sort of spontaneously endowed with that sincere interest, just as they might have an interest in, I don’t know, whatever we take interest in in life? Or do you think that that interest in itself can be cultured through attention, through, like yourself, you say you have your attention on this pretty much every day, and is that just sort of automatic the way Robert Wolf functions, or do you feel like you’re sort of reinforcing or enhancing or intensifying, please leave that on, your interest as you get out of bed every morning and start to write and talk and think about this?

Robert: Well, you know, some people are interested in these matters and some people aren’t. Sometimes I will talk with, like say, a married couple, and one of the partners will be deeply interested in this matter and the other won’t be. I have a friend that I’ve known all my life, he could care less about this stuff, he just has no interest whatsoever. And many of the people I talk with, and myself included, this seems to have been a thread that’s gone through their life from early on. There’s been something about some connection to wanting to comprehend the mystery that seems to be behind all this. So for some people it’s there and for some people it’s not. And I think that what probably might be an inspiration is what one reads or what one hears, or better yet, what one sees in the lives of people who are living this life. That’s the real inspiration for it.

Rick: It’s sort of a cart and horse issue, or chicken and egg. I’m just kind of curious about, you know, are we just sort of, some of us are just cut out to be interested in this stuff, or can we kind of culture an interest? Maybe start out with a little spark and through intention and attention build it into a bonfire.

Robert: If that’s going to happen, I think it has to happen out of how you live your life. You know, talking about it, writing about it may help, but you and I know a lot of people who talk about it and write about it, and it’s questionable whether they’re really living it. So the real fact is, the question is, are you living this? And if you are, that’s as much of a bonfire as you can build, I think.

Rick: Well that gets back to my earlier point about, you know, you can talk the talk, but are you really walking the walk? Are you really living it? And are you mistaking talking the talk for walking the walk?

Robert: That’s right.

Rick: So it’s a subtle issue, I mean, and it actually kind of almost leads us into a discussion of free will, because you’re saying, “Well it depends on how you live your life.” If you really live your life in such a way as to kindle this interest more and more, then it will become your highest priority, but that very much sounds like a volitional, intentional kind of thing.

Robert: Well, I don’t know, there’s only so much I can say about that. But one of the things you come to recognize, I think, with some time is that there’s something operating here. And we have an idea that there’s this “me” that’s doing the operating, that’s in control. And when we see through this illusion of the “me,” then we recognize that there is something operating here, and there’s something that we really ultimately have no control over. So all I know is that this unfolds for some people, and it doesn’t for others, and maybe that’s part of the mystery, but it’s something that’s of interest to some and not of interest to others, and there’s not much that can be done about that, I don’t think. I don’t think you can do anything more than just be living this life that you see as truth, and hoping that whatever positive effect there might be from that is going to prevail.

Rick: Yeah, well, it’s an interesting way you phrase that. There’s something operating here, and I think you said at a certain point it feels like it’s “me” who’s doing it, and then you kind of imply that later on, maybe you realize that you’re not really the charioteer you thought yourself to be. What is your sense of a personal self, or lack of such, now I suppose, or even for the past 20 years since that awakening? I mean, is there still some semblance of Robert, or is there no sense of a personal self?

Robert: Well, you know, one still answers to one’s name, and you still have the memories that you’ve had all your life, and certain habitual reactions and conditioned responses and so on. There’s something here now that witnesses those things, in other words, there’s something here that’s aware of what this organism is doing, saying, thinking, and sometimes noting some of the peculiarities, some of the habitual responses and so on and so forth. But the sense of, you might say, who this is, is more a sense of the witness of what’s taking place, as opposed to anything else.

Rick: In other words, would it be accurate to say that your identity is more as that which is the witness, than as that which is being witnessed?

Robert: That’s right.

Rick: Whereas previously you were sort of encapsulated within this individuality, and you felt, “This is me.” Now it’s more like the “me,” if you could use that word, is a much broader, vaster, more silent, more fundamental state or reality. But there’s still this wave on the ocean that we call “Robert,” and if that body stubs its toe, the pain is felt locally.

Robert: Yeah, yeah. And you know, it’s not that the witness and what’s being witnessed are two different things; they’re seen to be the same. In other words, what’s witnessing and what’s being witnessed are not seen to be separate; they’re seen to be the same.

Rick: Go ahead, do you want to get some water? Is that what you’re reaching for?

Robert: Well, yeah, I’m reaching for it.

Rick: Take a sip. Could you elaborate on that a bit, about the witness and the witnessed are seen to be the same?

Robert: Well, again, I think if you really come from the place where it’s clear that there’s no separation, no division, that what we’re talking about is one seamless actuality, then that is how things are perceived. That doesn’t mean to say that we can’t break things down into individual pieces if we want to. In other words, in order to live in the relative material world, there are certain things we have to do to do that. And so we make distinctions and make choices and so on and so forth. But from the standpoint of the big picture, the ultimate reality, the recognition is that there’s not any separate thing; there’s just this one unbroken actuality.

Rick: And does that big picture tend to be your kind of ordinary, everyday orientation?

Robert: Oh absolutely, absolutely. That for me is what it means to be living in non-duality, to be living in that place where it’s seen that ultimately there’s just this one actuality, one.

Rick: Sure, and I’m sure you don’t have to think about it or remind yourself or anything like that; it’s just as natural as breathing.

Robert: In fact, once this awareness becomes settled in, it’s as natural as our dualistic perspective was before.

Rick: Just kind of ordinary, stable, everyday way of living.

Robert: Right.

Rick: I understand from Natalie that you have kind of an interest in physics and consciousness.

Robert: Oh yeah.

Rick: Want to talk about that a little bit?

Robert: Yeah. I’m persuaded that if a person did nothing more than really comprehend what physicists are saying these days, they would get the picture of non-duality. You know, as I said, when I was spending three years in the forest, one of the things I read was Fritsch-Hauf-Kamper’s Tao of Physics. He’s one of the first physicists who really made connections between what physicists are talking about these days and the Eastern teachings. It helped me to see this point that has to do with no boundaries, with nothingness as a reality. In fact, my publisher, Michael Lommel, has a manuscript on his desk right now, which may be the fourth book which may come out next year, which would be a book on science and non-duality, because I’ve read maybe a couple of dozen books by physicists who are popularizing these things. They’re saying a lot of things that the Eastern teachings have been saying for thousands of years, and so I’ve put some of those things together in a book with some of my own commentary. So yeah, I think anyone who wants to get a sense of whether this non-dual actuality is a real thing in terms of the physical world, to read about what’s going on in quantum physics these days will help to solidify that. You may be familiar with living non-duality. There’s a couple of monographs in there on physics, one of them having to do with what in quantum physics is called entanglement, which has blown the minds of physicists for the past couple of decades.

Rick: What is that?

Robert: Well, you want me to go into that?

Rick: In brief, as much as you think is going to be interesting to people.

Robert: Yeah, well the thing that you have to recognize is that this is not conjecture. This is proven scientifically. What it amounts to is if you take a decaying atom and it ejects particles which fly off in opposite directions, these are called paired particles because originally they came from the same source, so they’re paired. As a physical fact, if the polarity, we’ll say, of one of those particles is changed, the other will consequently change just as a physical fact. What they found is that when you send these particles off in these opposite directions, if you do change the polarity of one, the other one changes instantly. This has to do with something happening at faster than the speed of light. In our part of the universe, nothing can be communicated faster than the speed of light. In other words, there’s not a message going from one saying, “I’m changing my polarity, you should change yours.” This is an instantaneous change, faster than the speed of light. These particles are far enough apart that from the standpoint of the size of these particles, it could be a universal distance.

Rick: And the word “faster” probably doesn’t even pertain because that implies speed, and we’re talking about something which is instantaneous, which is therefore mediated by something that’s beyond the realm of space and time altogether.

Robert: That’s the point, yes. So that indicates that there’s some kind of intelligence, a field of intelligence in which these particles are operating. But it also tells us that these subatomic particles are linked in a way that, as you said, is vaster than anything that has to do with time and space. And of course, we’re made up of subatomic particles. You have them, I have them, and the point is that these things are linked. There’s a link.

Rick:And I like the fact that you use the word “intelligence.” Why would you use that word? It has an anthropomorphic quality. Are you alluding to God, perhaps?

Robert: Well, I often point out when I use the word “intelligence” that it’s something beyond what we think of as intelligence. I mean, it has nothing to do with the kind of logic that we think of when we think of intelligence. But, you know, we’ve got this cosmos that is at least about 14 billion years old, and it’s evolved, they say, from something that was smaller than a subatomic particle. And what we have is this vast cosmos, just incredibly vast in terms of anything we think of in terms of size. And all this stuff is moving around in this thing, and it’s all doing what it’s doing perfectly well. There’s creation, there’s destruction, but somehow there’s some kind of balance and harmony in all of that. It’s not chaotic; it doesn’t just all collapse. So there’s something that’s going on here that’s pretty goddamn intelligent.

Rick: I agree. I mean, it’s like you could almost think of it as laws of nature, but they’re not kind of dumb laws. They’re not inanimate laws. At every single level, I mean the biological level, there’s laws that are governing all the functions in our bodies, and then you break it down to the molecular level, and there’s laws that are governing the molecules, and take it down to the atomic, and there’s that. And at every level it’s awe-inspiring and jaw-dropping when you consider the mystery of how everything is operating at every level. And that to me is my concept of God, you know? Not some guy with a beard up in the sky, but just this intelligence that seems to be governing everything, from the microscopic to the macroscopic, in a completely awe-inspiring degree of sophistication and beauty and complexity.

Robert: You’ve summed it up, because that’s just what these Zulus are saying, or are looking at it now. They’re making those connections.

Rick: And that also to me leads me to the conclusion that in a spiritual sense, there is a vast range of development possible, because I don’t see any end to the appreciation, which is the word you used earlier, of that intelligence, the degree, the refinement with which that can be appreciated. Yeah, so, and don’t let me put words in your mouth, but when I hear people say, “Well, I had this awakening and I’m done,” I think, “Great,” but it could be that that’s the foundation for a wonderful journey that you’ll continue to go on, developing in your appreciation of this marvelous creation.

Robert: Yeah, it’s true. It really brings you present with what’s present. Before, we’re so distracted with all of our ideas and concepts and fears and beliefs and so on and so forth. When all that’s out of the way and you’re immediately in contact with what’s present, it’s really something to be grateful for, to be appreciative of.

Rick: Yeah, it really is. In fact, I forget the word you used a little earlier, but I got the impression of we as human beings almost being like instruments of the Divine or something. It’s not the word you used, but it’s like there was a vaster force or a deeper reality, and we’re just kind of like sense-organs of that, in a way.

Robert: Exactly, yeah. I think in the ancient scriptures, basically that’s what they’re saying. They’re saying that we’re here to reify the Absolute. In other words, we’re here to make the Absolute a reality, because if we weren’t here, it would just be something that isn’t reified. It’s not seen to be what it is, and that’s our role, to see it for what it is, and that makes it real.

Rick: And is that what the word “reified” means, to make real?

Robert: Yeah.

Rick: Okay. And to make it a living reality. I mean, if we are that, ultimately, then why do we exist as human beings? Perhaps, could we suggest that that wants to live through this instrument?

Robert: Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. That without some, you might say, intelligent consciousness to relate to what this is, then it basically doesn’t exist. It exists to the extent that we recognize it to exist, so that would be our role. That’s what these teachings are saying, the ancient scriptures.

Rick: That’s beautiful. And could we say that maybe, well I think we’ve kind of said it, but again, it bears repeating that if that wants to live fully through this human nervousness, to know itself and to express itself, then there’s no end to the profundity of that expression, or the clarity of that living. It’s a lifelong adventure.

Robert: Yeah, and of course it tells us too that everything and everybody is doing that.

Rick: Exactly, yeah.

Robert: Whether you’re enlightened or not, you’re an expression of that, and all of this is an expression.

Rick: Yeah, I mean if you’re going to take that perspective, then you have to say that the people starving in Africa, and the cats and the dogs and the birds and the slaughterhouses, and all the beauty and all the horror and everything, is part of the whole show.

Robert: That’s it, you know, as the comparisons often made between Hitler and Mother Teresa, it’s all the same.

Rick: Interesting, well we’re sort of philosophizing a bit here, but I sort of think, you know, you can tie this stuff back to experience. I mean, it’s not just conjecture, you know, there’s a kind of experiential verification of it somehow.

Robert: Yes, that’s true.

Rick: And personally I feel it’s helpful to have these discussions because it kind of breaks you out of calcified ways of seeing and thinking. You know, you can get narrow, and you can sort of become polarized into this perspective or that, and if you kind of stretch it out a bit and encompass the whole range.

Robert: Well, one of the reasons why I started this discussion group is because in speaking with people and coming across people like Natalie, who clearly have awakened to this truth, this discussion gives them an opportunity to express what they’re seeing, how they’re seeing it, how it’s unfolding for them, and also to recognize that this is taking place for others too, in pretty much the same way. There may be a little difference here, a little difference there, but it’s an opportunity to see that, “Yes, this is what I’m seeing, and yes, other people are seeing this,” and express it.

Rick: Yeah, and like you said earlier, it clarifies your own understanding to do that expression and to write. I have a friend who had his awakening when he was a teenager, and now he’s older than I am, he’s in his mid-60s, and he spends at least an hour a day just writing. And he doesn’t have any desire to publish it or to be interviewed or anything else, he lives a private life, but he says it’s a method of exploration for him and a continuing clarification of his understanding and so on.

Robert: You know, those monographs that are in “Living Non-duality” have been written over a period of 20-some years, and some of them were written in response to a question somebody raised, or like if I’m corresponding with a prison inmate or something, answering something that arises in his life. But some of them were written just because I wanted to make sure that what I was seeing was clear, and if you put something down in writing, you have to be clear, there can’t be fuzzy thinking there. So it’s not written for my own benefit to make sure that what I’m seeing is truth and not some kind of a non-sequitur. So I encourage people after their awakening to go back and re-read the “Enlightened Masters,” because the first time around when you’re reading it and you don’t understand it, it’s one thing. When you go back and re-read it, now that you understand what they’re talking about, it’s a whole different thing. So I recommend people continue to read these things, to write about it, and to speak about it.

Rick: Yeah, and again, I found in your book a great degree of clarity, and I really think you accomplished what your purpose was in writing this stuff. It really hits home, goes very deep.

Robert: Have you seen my second book?

Rick: No, this is the only one I’ve seen. Natalie sent me this.

Robert: Okay, well the second one is, the title is “The Gospel of Thomas, the Enlightenment Teachings of Jesus.” And in that I had an opportunity to again summarize what seemed to me to be these teachings, so you might want to look at that one too. And I should also mention that Natalie has set up a blog site where she writes some monographs of her own, and another man who came to see me, Ron Bonilla, he’s done the same. So these are ways that the word gets out, I think, and maybe introduces some people to the subject. You know, things like Eckhart Tolle’s book, you know, some woman out in Iowa who maybe never heard of non-duality picks up a book like Eckhart Tolle’s that talks about being in the now or whatever, and becomes interested in what is this matter of non-duality, what are they talking about here? So there’s interest that develops, you can see it all the time. Your program is a good example of what’s going on in that regard.

Rick: Oh yeah, the whole thing is just getting, not only my program, but this whole field, is just I think getting more and more into the popular culture.

Robert: Absolutely, it’s doing what Zen did 30 or 40 years ago.

Rick: Yeah, you might like that conference, the Science and Non-Duality Conference.

Robert: I’m familiar with it.

Rick: I went to it this year and heard a couple of physicists speak, John Hagelin and Fred Alan Wolfe, for your namesake. And it was very inspiring and enlivening.

Robert: Good.

Rick: Great stuff.

Robert: Yeah.

Rick: Good, well, I think we’ve pretty much covered it for now. I get a lot of feedback from people and I get a lot of constructive criticism, the main point being that people say I talk too much. So I just want to apologize to those people, to you, to anybody else, because I know I’m guilty of it sometimes, I run off at the mouth.

Robert: I’d actually say you’re the best interviewer I’ve talked to so far.

Rick: Oh, thank you. You know what it is, is like, sometimes I’m feeling really settled and intuitive and it just flows and there’s a right proportion. Other times I sort of get feeling the Shakti, you know, and it’s like I’ve had a cup of coffee or something, I get way too talkative.

Robert: Well, I have a sense you know what we’re talking about.

Rick: Yeah. I’ve been on this quest or path myself since the ’60s. In fact, I may have met one of those Roshis that you referred to. I went into Manhattan when I was 18 years old and went to a Zen center and there was this Japanese man with a shaved head Roshi, and we went through a little routine and talk and so on. In fact, I remember he went around the room and asked everybody why they were there, what they were interested in, and I just said, “I’m interested in truth.” He liked that.

Robert: Great. It’s been a long, long travel for you too then.

Rick: It has, but a very enjoyable one and continues to be. It’s just a joy.

Robert: Well, I appreciate what you’re doing.

Rick: Yeah, thanks, and likewise. So let me conclude then. I’d like to once again thank Robert Wolfe for being my guest today. Robert lives in Ojai, but now that he’s no longer a Skype newbie, he could even perhaps carry on some conversations face-to-face with people, since you like to do face-to-face talks. Skype is a good way of doing that; they don’t have to be in Ojai. And of course, you’ve written three books now, which I will link to from my website.

Robert: Great, thank you.

Rick: And you also, I believe, have a website?

Robert: Yeah, livingnonduality.org.

Rick: Good, so I’ll link to that too. For those who have been listening or watching, this is an ongoing series, as we’ve been sort of indicating. I think this was maybe the 99th interview.

Robert: Really?

Rick: So next week is the big 100. And every week I do a new one, one a week. If you’d like to be notified whenever a new one is posted, and also to see what all the other ones are, go to batgap.com, B-A-T-G-A-P, which is an acronym for Buddha at the Gas Pump. There also you’ll find a link to a podcast, so you can subscribe to this and get it on your iPod or iPhone, listen while you’re commuting. Also a little discussion group springs up there around every interview, and usually like 20, 30, 40, sometimes over 100 comments are posted as people discuss what has been discussed in the interview. So feel free to come and participate in that. There’s a “Donate” button there, which you can click on if you wish, which helps to defray the expenses of this in terms of software, hardware, going to that conference I mentioned, and so on. But obviously no obligation to do that. So thank you everyone for listening or watching. Thank you again, Robert.

Robert: My pleasure.

Rick: Thanks again to Natalie, who set this up.

Robert: Yeah.

Rick: And we’ll see you all next week.

Robert: Thank you.