Panel Discussion on Refined Perception Transcript

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Panel Discussion on Refined Perception

Rick Archer: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer. And as you can see, I have a number of guests tonight. This will be a panel discussion on refined or is it sometimes called celestial perception. And the reason I wanted to do this is that first of all, if you read the spiritual literature of various traditions or look at the, the art the iconography use, you see plenty of references or depictions references to or depictions of stuff that people don’t ordinarily perceive, and wizard gross sensory capabilities, you see, halos or as angels, all the stuff that those traditions are rife with that kind of thing. And so that’s, and so, you know, the question is, what’s going on? What is all that? If it’s so common in the spiritual literature? Is it important? Is it something that people can expect to begin experiencing as they’re, as they evolve spiritually, and indeed, I often get emails from people I got one just this week from a woman in Australia, who I actually have some notes on it here. She walked into her three year old daughter’s bedroom and had an unexpected Kundalini awakening three years ago, she wasn’t really into this stuff at all. The experience started with a deep gravitational pull to meditate. She wasn’t a meditator. And then she saw a red line go straight up through her spine out the center of her eyebrows. And then she opened her eyes and Shri and undermined my I was sitting opposite me and took me through a series of initiations. And this kind of thing isn’t uncommon. And she goes on to talk about she’s always in the company of two beings who are pretty much always visible, and all kinds of things. She even wrote a bunch of questions that I might ask some of our guests later. Now, the non dual community, of which many of whose members I’ve interviewed on the show hasn’t really paid much attention to this. In fact, most of them would probably consider this topic a distraction. The New Age community pet has been paying a lot of attention to it for some decades and everybody’s channeling Saint Germain and you know, whatnot, but there’s, there’s often a lot of woowoo associated with that. And I think perhaps non dual community has been wise to this to that whole orientation and just try to cut to the quick, you know, cut to the, to the core of reality. There was, of course, one of the greatest founders of the contemporary non dual scene was Ramana Maharshi. And when Papaji first went to see him at that age, who Pooja Papaji he told him that he was a Christian devotee, and that he often played with Krishna Krishna would appear to him and he would play with it. And Ramana Maharshi said, Is he here now? And Papaji said no. And Ramana Maharshi said well, that which comes and goes isn’t real. And you know, you have to find that which does kind of go. So speaking of Krishna in the Gita, Krishna says, The Unreal has no being the real never ceases to be. The final truth about them both has been known by the seers of ultimate reality. So if that which is ultimately real, never ceases to be, should we be interested in things which come and go? Are they valid points of attention for a spiritual aspirant. So those are some of the questions I want to just raise to set this up. And some other questions we’ll probably discuss in this talk, are you know what this subtle or refined perception actually is, whether it’s relevant to spiritual awakening or they just accept the suggested whether it is an inevitable development on the path or a special aptitude like musical or athletic ability, the nature of our relationships with the beings which reside on subtler levels of creation. Do we have a relationship do we support each other in some way and whether subtle perception should be intentionally cultivated, or whether it will develop upon its own if and when it is meant to. And if it can be developed, what are the prerequisites to and stages of its development. Now, the point I just want to throw in before introducing the guests is that I have a feeling just from everything I’ve been exposed to, that we’re not talking about sort of one simple thing which can be put into a cubby hole, that there is a vast range of, we could say subtler layers of creation, and all sorts of different experiences are possible, depending upon what range one is open to. One other point I want to make many people in this room, and many people watching this will have been students of Mark, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. And he made the point very clearly, and then a number of beautiful lectures, that self realization is not the end of the line. And in a sense, it’s a foundation, or prerequisite to much more profound levels of development or experience. And he went on to talk about refined perception in great lengths, and associated that with culturing of the heart expansion of love. So I think we’ll be talking about that, too, tonight. So let me introduce our guests, I’m going to introduce them very briefly. And if they want to introduce themselves at greater length, they can do so when they speak. So I’ll just do it starting with my left. One more thing I want to say. And that is that everybody on this panel has been reluctant to participate, to actually come out and talk about this stuff. Because I think partly it’s rather intimate. It’s very, very gentle, intimate, private kind of experience. It’s not something you go shouting from the rooftops. And also, I think it has to do perhaps a little bit with cultural norms. If we all live in a society in which everybody perceived this sort of thing routinely, we no big deal. I mean, you know, what to have for lunch? It’d be like that. You know, I saw celestial beings a big deal. Let’s go shopping. But it’s not It’s unusual. It’s an even to speak of a spiritual awakening, what to say, of any sort of soul perceptions. Many people get flack from their friends, you know, who can’t relate to Joe Schmo, having, you know, being enlightened that this doesn’t they know, the guy doesn’t seem like he’s in line. So there’s a little blowback I think a lot of people experience when they come out with this stuff. And very often when they experienced that, they stopped talking about it. So it was a sort of a little bit like herding cats to get everybody to come on this panel. All right, now I’m ready to introduce them. So to my left with feta Farooq, aka Zarya, she and her late husband Farukh have been teaching meditation in the St. Louis area for a long time to people who would otherwise go to jail or who are on probation. There are some judges down there who sentenced them to learn meditation. So that’s great. And as I say, each person will be able introduce themselves at greater length. And Regina is the only person on this panel whom I haven’t yet interviewed. I’ll be interviewing her in August. To her left Frances Dale Bennett. Francis is a for the better part of 30 years was a Trappist and Benedictine monk in various monsters in the US, Canada and France. He and I are good friends. And if I interview many, many more times, I’m gonna have to change the name of the show to Francis. His left Harry alto, Harry is a professional artist and businessman here in Fairfield, Iowa. And after I interviewed him a couple of months ago, he started getting flooded with emails and speaking requests and so on and so forth. And you know, people were emailing me saying cancel, everybody else just interviewed Harry every week. So it was a very popular guest on the show. To his left, Kristin Kurt, Kristen is a healer and spiritual teacher who lives in the Northampton Massachusetts area. Her interview with BatGap was also very popular. And I’ll let her introduce herself at greater length. When she speaks, and to her left stand Ken’s and Stan will just read part of a little bio he gave me here since his immortal nature was revealed to him in 1994. Stan reports being established in lively self referral awareness. He is a PhD candidate at Marshall, University of Management here in Fairfield, Iowa, doing research on a topic that relates to what we’re going to be talking about tonight. And he was I believe, the oh, here’s some since his early childhood, Stan’s experiences and interactions with celestial and light Bina continues to expand and both regularity and meaning. And Stan was I believe the third person I interviewed on

Stan Kendz: that. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. So

Rick Archer: thank you, for doing, thank you for having. So I don’t know exactly how this is going to unfold. I think we’ll have discussion among ourselves here for a while. And then maybe after an hour or so we’ll open it up to audience questions and discussion. And we’ll just kind of let it roll. So Do any of you put anybody on the spot, but maybe you have an inclination to go ahead and speak first. And I’d like each of you, if you would, to just describe, you know, your own experience in relationship to this topic and your kind of understanding of the topic relevant to your own experience. And, you know, we’ll we’ll keep each one a little brief, because if we each go on for 15 minutes, probably the whole night, so let’s just kind of go from one person to the next. So first,

Stan Kendz: I can start, Rick, if that’s okay with you. In the panel. My experience has started when I was a very young person probably sneaking back today, maybe about eight or nine years old. I used to go to summer camp. And it was a Christian summer camp. And we were out in the woods with an open chapel. And I can remember being very bored with the service. But I used to watch sort of like shadow or angelic beings fly back and forth from one side of the, of the adornments of the altar. And I entertain myself with that for quite some time. And then, as life progressed, and I grew older, I had episodes and they didn’t last for my whole life. And I don’t always have them now. But I had celestial hearing for quite a few incidences. So other types of beings. And I went through an evolution as my own nervous system and my own consciousness expanded, those beings took different forms. Sometimes, at one stage of my life, the plant kingdom sort of spoke to me very, very lively. later than that, I had interactions with beings that my and my senses interpreted as animals, I had a spiritual experience with a possum, when the animal came out of the woods and rested its head on my foot. And it actually terrified me, because I was sitting there hoping to interact with nature on a very deep level. But when it actually happens, there’s some parts of your mind and thinking and ego. And it’s just not something that we’re used to doing in our culture. So you have reactions that you don’t anticipate for yourself. And then I developed the ability to see auras at a very early time in my 20s, continued around many, many years doing auric workshops and teaching people how to regain or excite in color and the meaningfulness I continued on then to work in other areas of development and dream time, lucid dreaming. And then, as time goes on, I would have experiences and one of the most vivid was there was a being that emerged from a tree while I was on a vision quest. And I was just sitting there quietly in the woods, with no clothes on it, you know, merging with nature. And I saw this what looked to me like, puffball, mushrooms start to grow out of the side of a tree, and I had a biology degree at the time. So I was kind of intrigued, this thing could grow so fast. And over, over a two hour period, it grew out that big, and then a stem came out, and then it started to rotate. And when it turned towards me it had a face on it. And that was when I really wished I could pass out intentionally. And it sort of progressed from there. And what I understand is that the nervous system and all the different levels of psychology have to integrate, or at least they that’s the way I interpret it. And so sometimes being will take a form that doesn’t just shock you to pieces, because who knows what it could really be, it could be a light being or something that we can’t even cognize but over the years, as I’ve expanded my possibilities and gotten more used to it, they seem to be more directly interacting now maybe just as a light being directly. And so that’s my story of how the evolution transpired in my life. Yeah, I would like to go next. Let’s go from

Rick Archer: just go from right to left. But you want to go next question.

Kristin Kirk: Yeah. Can you remind me of the question?

Rick Archer: Well, just to talk about your own experience with this topic of subtle perception or refined perception. When and how did it dawn? And what was the nature of the experience? And is and how is it continuing to develop? You know, five minutes

Kristin Kirk: I guess it’s easiest for me just to speak about what’s what’s kind of present now. There’s been a just sort of a falling away of what was my normal used to be the normal kind of reality. And I’m experiencing everything is conscious. So yeah, whether it’s the chair I’m sitting in, you know, the, the walls, the, the trees, the rocks, the wind, you know, I mean, like everything, everything I just experiences as consciousness and that there’s I was sharing on on Friday that at some point I realized that the Disney movies were more real time depicted reality more clearly than most of us understand, you know where they have the teapots dancing and talking to each other and, and that that’s more actually how I’m experiencing consciousness and then in terms of all the different different dimensions that are also part of my experience of reality that there’s communication just throughout, there’s nothing, nothing is being withheld. It’s only my experiences, it’s the perspective that that limits that that access. And so for me, but before I had that the reality kind of shift in 2003, I had what people would call more like psychic perception. And then as things shifted, I want to say what’s different is there’s, there’s not a separateness. So that before there was a self, having psychic experience, looking and exploring, and after the shift, there was an interest in reaching out and exploring, there was just a resting and then reality continued to open itself. And then I would just say briefly, that just what comes to mind, the value that for me is that communication with all these different beings, is profoundly supportive, and has supported my spiritual evolution continues to and deepens My love, my compassion, my understanding, my presence, my ability to share, and in the sharing, it’s not like it’s happening at something that I’m doing, there’s a whole there’s a whole configuration of beings that all come in, to support whatever’s happening, whether it’s a talk or a healing, so there’s, there’s no separation, it’s it’s so that want you to have one value. And then then another is just the awareness of what an exquisite place. We’re living. Like, I think people miss that. So often people are reaching for some spiritual transcendence, and getting to get away from physicality. And there’s no, there’s no difference like this is in my language. This is like divine existence that’s happening. And so it’s not at all I mean, it can be a distraction if one uses it that way. But in my experience in the embodiment of this realization, life just gets richer and deeper and more exquisite. And separation just continues to fall away and fall away and fall away and deepens relationships, respect, caring, caring for the planet caring for each other. Good.

Rick Archer: Okay, who would like to go next?

Harri Aalto: Everything she said know I do. My experience has also started at a young age, but I won’t go into that. But I will say that subtle areas of experience are just as permanent, as, as gross or non changing, there’s a whole field of consciousness is, it’s a continue. The subtle areas of creation are there all the time, what’s missing is the ability to see or be them seeing is believing. Right? So in the transcending process, I could turn the whole thing upside down and say, the most beautiful more sublime area of consciousnesses is this relative that we live in this so called changing area. Now, this this physical reality is connected to the Divine levels of consciousness, and divine levels of consciousness are connected to the fundamental level of human consciousness, that abstraction that the light the the knowledge that exists at the fundamental level of human consciousness. That area of consciousness percolates into the divine level, the divine level percolates into the so called gross level, but I don’t like calling it a gross level because, like you both were saying the divine level this just as a mortal as any other level, that gross right level is, is fundamentally where all the benefits are going to be enjoyed. The Divine levels of consciousness have a function in the same way that your fundamental level of consciousness has a function that say, the laws of nature, and ask all these aspects of nature, fire, air, water, space, and so forth. All these elements of nature are administrated by the personifications, let’s call them more the gods of nature, right? These gods these day was they, they’re constantly active in relation to us, they’re doing their thing. If you have blades, if you have knowledge, it’s coming from somewhere. It’s not, it’s not, it’s not this night, I have a source, it has a source and the source is the subtle level of your own consciousness, and everybody’s consciousness has this, the only thing that might be missing is the ability to see, hear, taste, and touch these levels. Now, the subtle levels of consciousness are constantly open to me, they’ve always been, they’ve been open for 30 years. And I don’t always go there, but it’s always there. I can feel it right now. Right? And it’s not so much that there’s beings there. It’s more like, you’re there. Consciousness is there, your wholeness is there, your love is there, your, your feelings are there, your knowledge is, all of it is, is kind of like an exquisite continuum. It’s like a huge it’s a cosmic hierarchy of sublimity, or whatever it is, it’s wonderful. And, and I’m not the guy to talk about, you know, love and all that I’m kind of, I’m a little bit, usually I’m very shy about these things, but But human consciousness can tap into anything and wants to anything you want to. And it’s so natural soldiers. They’re so immediate. So now, it’s not subtle levels of consciousness are out there somewhere in the heavens, occupy the same space, the same physiology, that same consciousness, you know, in our bodies sit here, but you know, our bodies are also constantly getting nature. It’s not just our minds, that are cosmic and the whole show is causing. And it depends on where your attention is your abilities. But it’s so natural, it’s just seeing is believing. That’s enough.

Francis Bennett: Your first lady’s

Ruffina Anklesaria: Okay, about 20 years ago, a friend whom I met for the first time, he’s a meditator, and Maharshi, Transcendental Meditation meditator told me that he had an experience with someone on Purusha. Another meditator.

Rick Archer: Purusha, is just a monastic program in the TM movement.

Ruffina Anklesaria: Okay, thank you for that clarification. He said that they were meditating together once, I, when they opened their eyes, they were in a different place, and in a different time, and everything around them look different. And since then, it had completely changed his life. And that that experience that he had, he was able to transfer to others also. So I got immediately very interested, being a teacher of Maharshi is Transcendental Meditation myself, since 1978. I was very intrigued. So this was about, like I said, about 20 years ago. And I immediately asked him, I’m going to be the next one, I want to get that experience. I want to know what it is. So the same evening, because he was leaving the next day, the same evening, we sat together. And I had the most transformative experience of my life, which I’m telling you all about, for the first time this is I have been very shy about this. And I have gone through a lot in my life in the last two years, especially. So many things have changed in my life and become a widow. I got very sick, many big changes in my life. And I thought that this is the time of my life, that I want to give back what God has given me so much of and this experience was the transformation that began a whole new world that I’m going to spend a few more minutes perhaps, than my colleagues to explain to you what this life has been like, how it can benefit you in some more detail. So I sat with my friend, like on that sofa and I’m here probably a little closer He looked into my eyes. And he just told me to just look into his eyes, which I did. And I started to feel the ears around the change, I could actually see, like the wall started to shake. And everything around me became very unreal. They took on a different property than what we could see around us usually. So I was just easy with the experience. And I continued, I’m used to transcending. But my eyes open, I kept looking certainly, in addition to this, a huge blob of light came out of his third eye, and then more of it came out and it filled the room, the whole room. Now we’re stealing into brilliant golden celestial light. I was into this, so I was enjoying it. And I thought this was it. He No, there were no words been exchanged. So we will be everything was filled with golden light that was emanating from his third eye. Then my third eye also was pulsating greatly, and light started to come out of my theater, I also, and I could see all of this happening. And more than that, the room was transformed into the most beautiful celestial place you had ever seen. He watched a movie, like by Cecil B. DeMille. Do any of these guys from long ago. It’s as if you opened a jewel box. And everything in the room that you had seen previously to be gross became made of golden light of different densities. Suddenly, everything became so heavenly, I found I was in a different place already. But that was just the beginning. So first of all, this huge jewel box opened up. And this jewel box was everything around me already, except I could see it, it pure golden light in different densities of it. Then, as I looked at my friend, he started to change. He didn’t look like the person that I started out with either. His face started to change, like the mask fell away. And immediately, I saw who he was previously in his last incarnation. And I knew who he was to me. And I felt it and saw it. And I knew that he was seeing me also in my past, just as he was seeing, and I was seeing, I saw where we were, we were in China, then I saw we were in India, then we were in Europe. And then the masks of all his past fell away. I saw hundreds of lifetimes that we had lived together in 3d clarity. He was not know I could still speak. I don’t know how but I was able to speak, he could still speak to. And we were certainly having some minor conversation. But it was really mind blowing. I saw all the lives that we had lived and they will numerous develop now going like flicking by 123456789 I was seeing the whole stretch of all the lives we had lived together. And I was feeling at the same time in my heart, all that he had been to me during that time. And at the same time, he was such silence. The silence is was so palpable. It’s like nothing you normally would experience even while transcending. So that was that was it. So that was my shaking up experience my transformative experience, my first time tasting the celestial gold. After that, I wanted to keep this experience. And I noticed that golden light was flowing out of me readily in doing doing different things. speaking on the phone, or whatever doing anything, the golden light would become apparent. And if I sat with it, and I looked into the eyes of someone else, I noticed the transformation to take place again. I could see the moon made of celestial golden light, decide of which created such bliss. I could feel my heart bursting. I could feel bliss pouring out of my heart, the silence that you would expect in the transcendent became lively in the relative I could feel so much silence, even while the world was transforming The same time, I continued to do this, like an advanced technique, I was used to meditating already regularly twice a day. And I just tried every day, to enliven this semester level with someone with someone else. And it grew, the experience grew with me over the years. And I began to see you all here, I cannot believe how beautiful the world is just as it is right now. If only you could see it, and it breaks the boundaries in your heart, when you can see how beautiful everything is. It’s all interwoven. The ability to perceive, to feel the blessed to feel the silence, and to enliven all of it together. It’s like the whole wave of the ocean rising up at the same time. So this was happening. And I realized I could see people’s past lives also. So I decided to experiment. I asked one or two of my relatives, to sit with me, for me to look at them. I had the most marvelous show of my life. I saw who these people have been to me and all the previous incarnations. I saw, for example, my sister in law, who is willing to speak to you also, I saw that she and I were burned at the stake together in medieval times, witchcraft. That’s one of the things I saw in one of the lives that she was my mother. And she was, we didn’t have a good relationship. And it made her cry. When she saw it with me again, remember, we were not exchanging any wounds. This is all communicated simultaneously. So these are just some of the experiences. So I did this with a couple of people, and was able to peel back through sight only the information that is stored with us at all times, I don’t have to do anything. Even as I was speaking to Francis outside, just now for the first time, I could already see the mask of his face peeling back. So after doing this a couple of times, I decided, wow, it is really something. Let me try this now on something that might be really useful besides me getting all excited about. And I had a friend who had just lost his wife. And he was grieving greatly a young man, I was young all too. And I asked him to sit with me. And let me go into gold, which is what I call it, I go into the gold because I go into the golden light and everything becomes that. And he got great relief. From his grief. When I was finished with him. After a couple of minutes. I said, Wow, this is beyond my control, I better check with my master. I communicated to Maharshi. What was happening to me, and I got the message back from him that I was very beautiful Marsh he said sign of increasing purity. Use the experience to bless the world. Forget about the past slides. So by that time, after you’ve seen many past slides, and you realize you’ve been all things to all people, you’ve lost the it loses its charm. So I was kind of relieved with that kind of information. Because after you’ve tried every candy in the store doesn’t make any difference. We’ve been beggar King, Queen, everything. One thing I’d like to say though, is that when you change sex from one light to the next slide, you change your sex from the previous one, you probably will end up being gay or lesbian. It gives you great compassion when you know this, that the if you’ve been a woman or a man for a long time, and it’s your first incarnation or so when you’re making the change, it happens spontaneously, have compassion on the gay homosexual community. It’s natural. It’s a change of the energies, okay? Because I know I’ve taken a lot of time and muster to present. So since I’m why I kept it quiet. I would just sit and go into golden light, permeating everything and just enjoying the growth and the bliss that took place. In the beginning. I froze like a statue, as I have read in Ananda boy Mars boats also. I would just look into your eyes. Let’s say I was looking there. I would just sit and look and my body would freeze completely. And the golden light would pour out of me and alive in the whole room. Now, if there’s somebody else in the house, as I had, they always knew when I was in my golden experience, because it would change the environment, they could feel the difference. And so that continued, as the years went by, I just knew I had this ability. And I kept it to myself basically, until I realized, let’s try this again, after so many years, I did it with a brother who has retained the ability, so whoever I do it with, gets the same ability. That’s the thing, your phone’s gonna ring, the the, when the, when the Shakti from me, goes into your eye, enlivened the same experience in you, and you can retain it and have the ability, my daughter here has the ability. Five years ago, she had always expressed an interest in, in what I was doing. I told her at some point, she would get it. But my husband was a bit of free about these past lives, and all these things, we didn’t want to expose it. But one particular day, I felt very strong, right, then he was sitting in front of me, and I said, and he looked at me, and he looked at me, and I just zapped. And that was very beautiful for me is that she described to me what I was experiencing, I felt like crying because this was an innocent child, with no experience or theoretical information about anything. She told me, Mommy, I’m seeing the light waves coming out of your forehead moving like this coming out of you. That’s precisely what I was seeing. And from then she got the ability also. Now, this has had tremendous effects, as you would imagine. But right now the present time, I have found that doing any activity, the celestial light comes, I can be watching TV, I could be very sick, I have to tell you, what’s happening to my body is not what’s happening to my celestial perception. I was in the emergency room, couldn’t even speak because I was in so much pain. And I was filling the room with golden light at the same time, it’s very visible, I can see the light pouring out of me. And if you have perception at that level, you can see it too. But recently, what really kicked me out of my seat to call Rick is that I was lecturing as a as a TM instructor, I was speaking to someone, if I was speaking to them, I looked into their eyes, and the whole room turned into gold. And she saw the whole thing. And she was kind of like, totally flabbergasted because the whole room filled with light and change in front of her eyes. So I thought to myself, maybe I should do something about this. Because it seems like once given the right start. People’s third eyes can easily and naturally be opened, and gives them celestial perception. In my viewpoint, well, I should tell you, at the beginning, I used to see celestial golden beings as well, I would I would be going to check someone’s meditation, and two golden people would come and sit next to them. Or I’d see a little golden boy walking around the house. Golden beings will also in the room, I do not have that perception at this time. Other things have taken its place, I seem to be able to light up a room literally. And I seem to be able to transfer the capability fairly easily as well. So that is my experience in a nutshell. I’m sorry, that was a bit vague. But I have this has broken the boundaries of my heart in a big way. That bliss flowing through me. That light that emerges from me, has really made me a much more loving being. I think the people around me should really wants to speak about this. It is not right that I should speak about this. But I think the boundaries of my heart just fell away as bliss flowed through me all these years. And I think higher states of consciousness is nothing like I expected. I feel It would be a steal Ryle place of non activity. It is not that if I am there, it is a place of great joyfulness, happiness love, full of God, I love God, I’m a total devotee of the Lord. I have also Divine Manifestations, which I cannot speak about in this lecture, the lecture doesn’t leave room for that. And I will leave something for August interview as well. But I have to see, my world is so much richer, it is not the passive, cold place that I expected and unlikely world to be, it is so much more beautiful. I care so much more for people, I feel sometimes that the whole world is living in my heart. And I could feel everyone inside of my heart. I feel sometimes like the gardener in front of me, is so dear to me, as dead as the guy who’s putting on my roof, as their as my sister as my child. I feel that in my own heart so much, I could do anything for them. I feel my it’s nothing like I had anticipated. And I’m very glad. That’s my Thank you,

Rick Archer: brother, Francis,

Francis Bennett: Oh, my

Rick Archer: Tough act to follow, huh?

Francis Bennett: All of them are. Normally, when I give a talk or something, I kind of have a little sense of what I’m going to say. Not always and this is one of those not always times. So I’ll just open my mouth and see what comes out. I would have to say that the essence of what I realized in 2010, when I had a kind of major shift. In my own words, the way I would describe it, if I had to put it in a nutshell, was that I suddenly saw so clearly that God is in everything, and everything is in God, that, that the reality of God that I had been seeking my whole life as a monk had always always been present, and never not been present. And everywhere I looked, I saw God’s presence in all these various different forms. And I always loved God my whole life. But that set in my heart, a fire burning of love for God, that was very intense. And this week, I thought of an example that would relate to this. And that was an example that I think a lot of people could relate to, if you were in love with someone, if you had, if you’re a man or whatever you like men or women doesn’t matter. If you were in love with someone. When you’re looking into the face of Your Beloved, you would notice every little detail. You know, you might look into the eyes of a woman you love. And you might notice the little flecks in her eyes. You might notice her eyelashes, you might notice the freckles across her nose. You might notice the way she wrinkles her nose when she gets angry, you might notice all kinds of little details. And the reason your perception of that person is so refined and so precise is because you love them with all your heart. And my sense is that when love for God sets your heart on fire. Your perception just automatically love refines it. Love Itself refines it. And as Harry said, I think beautifully. The idea that this this phenomenal world we live in is not just an illusion that can just be dismissed as nothing and be, you know, just let it go to hell in a handbasket, you could say, because it’s not real anyway, all that’s real is the absolute reality. It’s more a matter of seeing the absolute reality and all these forms of seeing the presence of God and everything that exists. So I thought when Rufina was talking, I thought of this image of the Wizard of Oz, you know that scene where Dorothy’s house lands in Oz. And when she first opens the door, and everybody kind of goes, Ah, you know, she opens the door and from this kind of drab black and white world, she opens the door and there’s this magical world of color and vibrancy and life and love. And I think when a person awakens to this presence of God, that that I would call awakening to the presence of God On, it’s like that the world takes on a whole different look. You know, Jesus said, The kingdom of heaven is in your midst, or the kingdom of heaven is within you can be translated either way. And I think what Harry said is really accurate, that there are all these various dimensions of reality, the phenomenal relative reality. And they’re not in some faraway heaven somewhere, they’re all around us, they’re within us there, you know that there are so many layers of dimensions of reality of phenomenal reality, that are manifestations of God that are, in a certain sense, an incarnation of God. And in the eyes of love, when they’re awakened, the eyes of the heart, see that. And that not only includes this physical world that we live in, that we’re most of us are conscious of, on some level, in the divinity of that world, but it includes other worlds that we’re normally not aware of. And I think that sort of, for me, that’s the essence of this, it’s looking at phenomenal reality, with the eyes of love with the eyes of God, you could say God looking at God, in all these forms. And there are many forms that most human beings are not aware of. And at some point, after that awakening, I started becoming aware of various other dimensions. And you know, they’re very real, they exist, there’s a movie out now called Heaven is for Real. And I think that the message of that movie, it’s a beautiful movie, by the way, get a chance to see it’s about an innocent little boy, who, who gets a look at these celestial realms, and they’re not in some far off place. They’re right here with us all around us and within us. And I guess that’s what I’d have as an open. And maybe that’s all I have.

Rick Archer: Rather than me ask questions, I’d like to have the panelists continue to interact as if, if some of the rest of you have responses to what anybody else has said.

Kristin Kirk: Because I do actually, I’ve just, I haven’t ever spoken with Harry, and after watching part of the interview, I totally wanted to have a conversation. I think this is more just, yeah, just what I wanted to share that, that. I haven’t heard a whole lot of people speak about the de Vak reality, the way that I experience it. And what you were sharing came the closest to what my experience is, is that in that of everything being conscious, like that the de Vak world is this other part. So we have our human our manifestation of consciousness is only happening because it’s completely interwoven with this data reality, which is also conscious, but it’s a different it’s not just

Harri Aalto: be eggs, it’s everything. Yes, yes. What I’d like to introduce the chairs, and everything, everything, right, everything is conscious,

Kristin Kirk: right. And so when I go into a room to have a talk, I mean, I am in harmony, communication with the walls and the rugs and everything of coming into alignment to create today, you know, whatever it is, that’s happening, and there’s a so I don’t know, I just wanted to say like I’m it was, it was thrilling. For me, you know, to hear to hear someone speaking in that way that I just people don’t usually talk about

Harri Aalto: a state of consciousness called Unity consciousness and your speech or your talk reminds me of that everything in terms of the South everything in terms of knowingness. The shining in her life is outside as well. There’s no outside there’s no inside. Right? There’s one continuum. And I love the when you talked about the golden light, right? And, you know, I, I think of that as storm of course, and everybody knows or mostly knows what so my is so nice, is also related to some evade, which is the one of the principal raids in the bay. And it’s the movement of consciousness and I experienced that movement of consciousness in this in similar way you describe more like, like a rain shower that’s constantly moving as golden light into my heart, out of my heart, into my head, holding my head, everywhere. The whole body from the bottom of my feet to the top of my head, has this golden quality to it. In the moment of the of this pure white, primordial consciousness, it takes us golden hue. It becomes more conscious and more Formica, this golden light, this movement of consciousness, shimmers into or solidifies into the Devas of creation. And of course, you might see the immune Devas, other people say Christian Devas are gods, but they all have the same. They’re all united in their efforts to bestow, and communicate and be there for us all of the time. Right? That’s what you experienced, producing. At least we’re all in agreement, right?

Stan Kendz: Rick, I like to share lots of people hear these stories. And they wonder like, how come this panel of people that have so many people are having these experiences. And so my research for the past six or seven years, was to try to understand a deeper level of, you know, how does a human being evolve to that level or, or change to that level. And so I think I’m the first person to actually do some validation that you can, by putting our own awareness, each individual into the boundless field of the transcendent, several times a day, at least twice for some time, that the field itself cultivates you, you don’t really have to work at it at all. And what we saw, when I did my research was we have a community here where people have been doing that for 40 years. And so many of them reported, not only just these celestial visions, and hearings, and so forth, but the spontaneous and instantaneous fulfillment of their desire, you have a thought of something, and somebody may run into your house and give it to you. I mean, it can be just that spontaneous. And so what happens is that the human being is this is an expression of a unique expression, each of us and one other close to 7 billion on earth. Now, we’re all a unique expression of this boundless intelligence that takes every form that we’ve ever seen or could imagine, and we can reconnect with it. It’s such a deep level, that we have the experience of the wholeness of it, all the memory of it, all, the beauty of it, all the gold of it, all the visions of it, we’re one with it in such an intimate way, that anything it wants, or we want as a representative and physical form of it, is just instantly given to ourselves. And it’s an exquisite thing. And it’s actually, you know, my research validated that, yes, this does happen when we do these kinds of practices,

Rick Archer: Seek ye first the kingdom of heaven, and all else should be added unto that.

Stan Kendz: And everybody, every place can have that experience, like becomes effortless, and no mistakes ever, you make a decision, it supports the evolution of every single thing. That’s part of the wholeness, no more mistakes with nuclear energy or anything like that. It’s just effortless correct management. It’s really quite beautiful.

Rick Archer: Audience, anybody in the audience would like to ask anything, if, if you’d like to sit and be on camera, if you don’t mind, come up and sit in his chair. And also, we don’t want big long gaps while we’re passing the mic around. So maybe people should be coming up here. And if you don’t want to be on camera, just kind of wave the camera guy away. And he won’t put it on you. But think about any questions you’d like to ask. You go ahead, while they’re thinking about their questions

Ruffina Anklesaria: coming up. I just like to say that one of the experiences that blew me away in the beginning was I went to a Gandharva VEDA concert, music. And I was able to see the shapes of light generated by each instrument was kind of really a neat experience in and I could see the shapes of light coming off of each instrument. Then another thing I was working at the Embassy of Japan in Trinidad. And I remember when my boss’s office once and when I looked at him, he looked like he was a mannequin to me. And I thought to myself, I thought, and then I realized what was happening. My consciousness was shifting between Rufina, the small individual, and the unbounded standpoint, which was the bigger me and this is what was happening. When I shifted into my big self. Everybody, including me looked like mannequins, we looked unreal, against the backdrop of my real big unbounded Meteor. And this happens also when I look at someone and the transference is taking place. I start off looking at you. I’m Rufina and you’re, I’m looking at you and then my boundary start to fall away. I I feel myself become that unbounded, expanded self, which is not contained in the form of Rufina anymore. And that experience, I would shift in and out of it. During the day, during the night, while I’m sleeping, I would be in my I would be sleeping sometimes. And I would think to myself, who’s in the room, but when I was done with this, hearing this person I checked, it’s always mean, I’m snoring, you know, or I’m breathing deeply, or something is happening in the room. But that big self has taken over. And I’m not relating to the small Rufina boundary, until I shift back into it to the awareness, I could see there is value in bringing out that whole unbounded self, into the boundary. And it gives me the qualities of that level of that unbounded field even while being in the relative. So all the beautiful qualities you expect of that absolute field, become very lively in my be in my little body. So that’s why sometimes I feel as if I’m going into a spiritual ecstasy, actually, I do. I clean, so much, bless so much love for God, for everyone, for everything that is flowing through me, I feel as if I have to pour it on everyone, I have to give this love back out. And that’s why I’ve taken this step today. Because I have to give all this light all this love back out as much as possible before I lay this body down. And that has been my motivation.

Rick Archer: One of the questions this woman from Australia asked the whom I referred to earlier in the beginning, Stan reminded me of this because you’re talking about, you know, how heavenly the world could be. And we will make mistakes and all that stuff. But obviously, that’s a far cry from the way the world is now. So and Harry was talking about how everything that’s on the surface of life is percolating up from subtler levels. So how about all the yucky stuff? Is it just that there’s not enough of the good stuff percolating up are there sort of, is there some kind of battle between the gods and the demons going on on some subtle level. And here’s here’s one of her thing she said. When the Kundalini woke it was shown as a red line entering and going up the spine. And as it entered the heart of being emerged, quite a freaky looking thing that wasn’t too happy about being removed, it was clear that it had acted as some kind of block. And as it came out, after some time, dissolve through the field, interesting that these blocks can have energetic form. And then she said, If I sit in meditation with others, she very rarely does because she lives in a small town in Australia, I sometimes see beings being released one time one really made itself known it came right up close, and wouldn’t leave the person that was attached to, if we have these experiences, is there any guidance as to what to do? So you know, we’ve all heard the idea of spirit possession, and Jesus casting out the, you know, the devils out of people, and then them getting up and being healed and cured of insanity and so on. So what about this whole thing of sort of subtle energetic forms actual malevolent intelligence is of some kind, rooting themselves in our makeup in some way. And the whole process of purification is a matter of purging us, ourselves of those forms. Does anybody have any comments on that?

Stan Kendz: I do record if I can talk again. What I’ve what I’ve come to realize is that eventually, the awareness gets to a certain level where realizes absolutely without question, that everything is the self and wholeness. And when that happens, the individual turns its own awareness or her own awareness back into the self, and cleanses the entire way that they think or manage or deal with anything and in their experience. And that cleansing process actually ripples through their whole environment. Their environment actually gets joyfilled effortless to manage. And, and it’s it’s a self referral loop. You know, the Mayans had the snake swallowing its own tail. And it’s like the intellect grabs on to, oh, this is all just me. And then suddenly it becomes wholeness. And that wholeness starts to cleanse itself. It doesn’t need to have any other techniques. When we see things as something else is happening. That’s still a little bit of residual smoke in the way in The thinking of the wholeness. But when the wholeness starts to realize that the only thing here is me, and what I allow it to come through me is what’s going to be my experience than itself cleanses. And that becomes joyful.

Rick Archer: Anybody else have comments on that?

Harri Aalto: some interesting subject because despite this joyful knowledge field experience that can be had, and is had by awakened people, the body continues to age, the wars continue in the world. Why is that? Why? Why don’t we? Because there’s laws of nature, right? What we get the ability to do is focus in the right way. Everything in terms of the self, now, we still have your, you’re not going to get rid of wrinkles, or losing your hair or any of those kinds of things. What, what the awakened state accomplishes is that the mind is constantly in this blissful state when it gets more dramatic when it gets more obvious when it gets more prevalent. The awakened state overshadows everything but overshadowing doesn’t make. It takes the badness out of the bad, but all that continues to happen. You don’t look quite the same you did 10 years ago, and neither do I. Why is that? There? There’s kind of a balance between nature, right? There’s certain laws of nature that make things and there’s certain laws of nature that make things evolve, there’s certain things laws of nature that you might say are bad, but the awakened mind doesn’t recognize the badness. In the process of aging, or the process, any process, it’s all becomes a positive kind of phenomenon. And it’s hard to describe. But you know, when there are davers, and there are the other ones. Right, they’re there, and they have their game. But an awake mind can look at this area, and and put the whole show into it as it were and just see the bliss. See the knowledge, see the joy. And it’s but it’s quiet. It’s not always overt. You can see me scowling walking down the street, but inside is pretty good. So there’s something you know, something manifesting in the skull as well. I’m just not paying attention to it. You might be but I’m

Rick Archer: Francis or Kristin? I’m trying to keep it balanced.

Harri Aalto: Yeah, you should say something on this. Sin stuff.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Exorcism.

Francis Bennett: Kristin?

Kristin Kirk: For me, this is a huge, it’s a huge topic. And to do it, Justice would need a long. Yeah, a long, tight, you know, amount of time. So my hesitation and I will speak about it. Briefly, my hesitation in speaking about it briefly, is that it’s really valuable to get the whole scope because people have so many questions about it. And there’s can be a lot of fear about it. And people having their own experiences. Internally not understanding what’s happening. That’s, that can be terrifying. So So I just wanted to just say that that just to know renewer let me just be quiet for a second see if passed back to Francis. So, so my experiences yes, there’s a whole game. There’s a whole I mean, I love how you speak about the forces, right? That the universe is an amazing, amazing game that’s at play. And that in the internal realization of wholeness, there is not the fear there’s not the being caught up in the game, and that the deeper recognition of love and compassion is then what relates with what may look like a demon or may look like past life trauma, or may look like an abusive parent, so that those things are still happening and at play, and that when I’m doing healing sessions with people or working in large groups, a lot of that more condensed, contracted those contracted states of consciousness are what come forward, and my senses were just To the time in evolution of the planet, where the vibrations are shifting so dramatically that people are waking up all over the place. And these densities are then being brought to the light, because the vibrations are raising. So I would just say that, in my experience a lot of the stuff that people are frightened about or have questions about that there’s a certain level of reality to it so that people aren’t crazy. And that getting support can be really helpful. And is sometimes necessary, it’s been necessary in my path. And at the same time, and the deeper truth and wholeness, everything is, everything is good, everything is divine. And everything is in harmony, even if it doesn’t feel like it’s harmony from a deeper perspective. There’s a harmony, and wisdom and a learning and an evolution evolution that’s unfolding.

Rick Archer: Francis, I’m gonna say I think already kind of sitting there at the moment, okay, you just pipe up if anything comes to mind.

Kristin Kirk: So I’ve always had that question. And I think this is my opportunity. I’ve been thinking of the higher states of consciousness like all of us, as we learn them, starting with transcendental consciousness, cosmic consciousness, divine consciousness, unity consciousness. And this is such a clear progression. And as I become more and more familiar with it, whichever way I am, I’m thinking, Well, it sounds like there is a an overlap between these different states of consciousness, and it is not like going step by step. So I would like to find out from our panel, whether you experience this blending of different states of consciousness in different ways. So

Harri Aalto: so the I think both are true. It certainly in my life. Not that I’m saying that I’m in the States. But let’s just imagine for a moment that I’ve gone through, for instance, Maharishi states, seven states of consciousness, GS Si, si gcuc, cosmic

Rick Archer: consciousness, God, consciousness, Unity Consciousness, those

Harri Aalto: are the distinct levels that the term organization talks about all the time. And I’ve experienced all those states of consciousness, but they come very distinctly. And very overlapping, they both come and go, come and go, come and go. And then another one starts a minute, but it’s never stops. It does send, you don’t get CC witnessing of sleep. And that’s the end, I’m enlightened, then you get GCC, celestial perception. And that’s the end what you realize with every state of consciousness as it unfolds, it becomes part of your life. Your past life doesn’t disappear. Your future life doesn’t disappear at all amalgamates into the state that you’re in at the moment. And new and more unity consciousness dawns, everything’s in terms of the South, hey, wonderful eight, boom, next day, you have another experience, it doesn’t look like Unity looks like something else much bigger, much better. I keeps going, that goes on and on and on. And then Maharishi calls it Brahman consciousness, right? And guess what Brahman consciousness is, takes in all the relative, the gross relative, the pains and the stresses, and then and the laws and demons and gods, everything starts amalgamating into this consciousness in terms not in terms of the self in terms of wholeness. Now, something much bigger than itself, if you can say that. Maybe you can, in any case, so all those states of consciousness, they totally overlap. Everybody can have them. And the biggest real realization you have in every state of consciousness is when you’re there, you’ve always had it always had it never wasn’t there. That’s how simple it is. Right?

Ruffina Anklesaria: Yeah. Actually, this is one of the things that struck me when I first started to have these experiences. As a teacher I had been teaching about growth, the cosmic consciousness, rise about consciousness and and unity consciousness. So in my mind, I thought it was a linear kind of thing, progression that will take place. I thought that after you’ve been having witnessing at night, then you would start seeing refined perception, and then you will have some unity experience. So you’re kind of waiting for it to happen and everybody it it’s not like that. It’s just as he described it, I find that you seem to have some time some CCE experience of witnessing of the unbounded getting by, and then you’re into celestial perception, and then you will have suddenly become so Watch a part of you, it feels like it’s unity. And then you’re back in CC again. You know, it’s really, an interweaving of the different states of consciousness. I think Maharshi does actually describe the the bubble diagram. He laid it out so that we can understand it intellectually. But when we experience is really all interwoven. I think it’s a very good point, Francis,

Rick Archer: let me quickly explain something for the YouTube audience. Because a lot of these acronyms and terms might be unfamiliar. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi who some of us on this panel have a background with layed out seven states of consciousness and waking, dreaming and sleeping are the first three, everybody experiences those, the fourth is actually had the Sanskrit name before it is turiya, which means fourth. And that would be transcendental consciousness, pure consciousness, pure awareness without any relative experience, repeated experiences of that through integrating it over time would result in having that fourth state become permanent, in the midst of the other three, waking, dreaming and sleeping. So, you know, in the waking state, it would be experienced as a state of pure silence or witnessing feeling that detached feeling you’re not the actor performing the action that’s going on by itself during sleep, that’d be inner awareness. Even though you’re snoring like a sailor, you’d be awake inside. Maybe that’s something Francis can speak to, because that’s his experience. He snores like a sailor. No, he doesn’t.

Francis Bennett: Read with me, it said, you know, I don’t.

Rick Archer: tz In fact, he said, when you when you had your foot surgery, and you went under anesthesia, you lost that inner awareness. And you it was quite surprising. Ordinarily, it’s there during sleep, then I’ll just wrap this up real quick. But I just want to throw this out. Because we’re bandying about these terms. Living in that state for some time, that’s the senses would refine and instead of perceiving the ordinary gross level of creation through the senses, as we always have, appreciation, love with grow, we’d be perceiving much finer levels of the objects we perceive, much closer to the value of the Absolute, although not quite there. And that marshy called God consciousness, and that’s what they mean GC when they say it, and then eventually the subtlest value would be apprehended or appreciated, and the objects of the senses would be perceived in terms of the self in terms of the absolute that one had known oneself to be, since it was first tasted in the fourth state and stabilize in the fifth day cosmic consciousness. But as these people have been saying, it’s not quite so sequential is that not quite so linear, they appear to be much more mixed up. And you know, one thing can precede the other.

Harri Aalto: So these the unfoldment of states of consciousness, do not eliminate previous states of consciousness ever. Here we are, we still have bodies, we walk around the street, we don’t walk into trees, we don’t lose our, you know, we don’t lose our sense of direction, we don’t lose anything. What we do is gain something in each state of consciousness is a wonderful game. It’s an addition. Every state of reality, every state of clarity is an addition to what we already have. It’s not often the growth of consciousness is thought in terms of elimination, yes, go go towards this nothing state. It’s wonderful, but it’s nothing. Well, okay, no, okay. I’ve got nothing I can experience nothing sort of get on, I can talk about it. This is ground state, there’s nothing seems to be there. But all this other stuff that’s there too, including the gross relative, it’s one big massive continuum of consciousness. That’s what it is. And your way of describing it is golden light. It’s, it’s very integral to the phenomenon of the movement of consciousness of that silent consciousness. But all the Guru’s are many gurus, and many invitees. And whether they call them non duelist. I’m all for them, because they’ve realized if they’ve truly realized it, the state of consciousness of this incredible ground state of awareness from where everything starts, but I’d say that’s the first step, not the last step.

Francis Bennett: I really liked what he said, I think that’s really an important point that, that the expansion, you could say, of consciousness, it’s not really that consciousness is expanding, obviously. But our awareness of it is expanding constantly. And when it expands to a larger space, it doesn’t eliminate the boundary that it had before it includes it and expands it and it just keeps including more and more and more. And my sense, you know, I mean, you were talking about a kind of a particular map of consciousness, which is the, from the TM teaching of Maharishi, and that’s a perfectly valid map. I’m sure. I don’t happen to know a lot about that map. I mean, I’ve heard little descriptions of various states that I can recognize, kind of in my own experience. But you know, in in the Christian mystical tradition, there’s a map of consciousness that is laid out by St. John of the Cross and the ascent to Mount Carmel, and so on. He talks about three major states of consciousness, purgative, illuminative, and unitive. And there’s probably corollaries if you took the map of consciousness that Maharishi sets forth, and you compare it to the map of consciousness that Jhana, the cross sets for, I just read a book that Rick passed on to me about Kundalini. And I could see precise parallels between the map of consciousness of Jhana, the cross and the ascent of Mount Carmel, and the map of consciousness that this woman was basing on on classical kind of teachings on Kundalini arising. And I could even see in my own life parallels, like, I could look over 25 years in my life and see, oh, yeah, that I remember that. And that, you know, and it was so fascinating to me that you have these two maps, that sound very different, but they’re really different ways of describing the same journey. And I think a lot of stuff in in the kind of non dual spiritual scene, a lot of people have a kind of awakening a glimpse, whether it’s sometimes it’s kind of an intellectual awakening, to the understanding of non duality. And they get stuck there, they get focused on that. And they think that the realization of that kind of larger space obliterates what came before. And it’s a common common, I think, problem in this scene. And I think what Harry Cena

Harri Aalto: gets a problem, though, I think it’s, it’s the first step. Well, you know what they can be, they won’t stay there forever.

Francis Bennett: Yeah, it can be a problem, though, when they think that that that the journey is finished. And that’s okay. I’ve had a glimpse of the absolute on done. I even ran across people recently who were using that term that so and so is done. And my, my response to that was, they can’t be done because no one’s ever done. It’s like that, you know, this, like you were talking about these different states, these different stages of consciousness. And each one of them is infinite. Like, you know, each each one of them has an infinite depth that can never be plumbed in a human lifetime, certainly can never be so unreal, I just I loved what you said

Harri Aalto: was beautiful. You know, this is a kind of a simple analogy, but it’s kind of like, if you’re walking in a landscape, you have the foreground and middle ground and horizon. And as you’re approaching the horizon, the horizon keeps. Yeah, exactly. That’s what consciousness is, like, the horizon gets bigger and bigger, not smaller and smaller. Right, right. Right.

Rick Archer: I’m glad you’re saying this stuff. Because I obviously talked to a lot of people in this field. And I think people can get stuck and they can get stuck for a decade, decades, lifetimes. Yeah, they’re actually in an awakened state. But they’re stuck for the rest of their life, perhaps in that state. And I don’t want to name names, but you know, they, they keep saying the same thing over and over. And, you know, many people in that boat would listen to this conversation and think, what are these people talking about? They’re crazy. They’re overcomplicating what is really such a basic fundamental thing, that just layering all kinds of stuff on there about golden light, and beings and all these things. That’s all illusory, it’s all Maya, just, you know, settle down into the, into the self and be done with all that. And experientially, I have no authority to speak about this, I don’t think but intellectually, just from everything I’ve learned, and to whatever extent I’ve experienced it, and, you know, some of the Great Beings that I’ve had the privilege of associating with, I just feel like there’s such a vast range of possibilities. And marshy once said, you know, someone asked him about getting stuck in this state that we’re talking about this sort of flat, absolute plain vanilla. He said, it’s like a book going through his heart to hear that, because he knew that there was so much more that people could experience and he, he just really had this ardent desire to unfold the whole range of possibilities for people.

Harri Aalto: I met him ending up talking a lot more than I thought. You can tell me to shut up. But, you know, I’d like to comment on you know, I took my first interview with Rick, two months ago, something like that. And, and I’ve had, I don’t know, 600 responses, you know, and I’ve answered 100 of them. And what really got me is that, you know, sometimes we’re in this community here TM community, right? Hey, we’re the only ones that have pure coins. We’re the only ones that have the states of good but what I’m hearing and seeing is dozens of people having the same experiences they’ve never done TM, but they were having these expenses. They’re having Unity Consciousness experience. Just like you, and many people like that, and some of these experiences, and the way they’re describing this phenomenon, and they asked me questions, and, you know, I’m saying, Whoa, where did these guys come from? They come here to this community. But I’m I’m pointing out is that this is a very universal phenomenon, this growth of consciousness. And this clarity of consciousness exists throughout the whole world.

Rick Archer: Yeah, this woman from Australia, her brother, who is a plumber in this little town, now he’s awakening. He doesn’t know any of this stuff. I mean, it hasn’t, that hasn’t been of interest to him, but cooking, so it’s sick. It’s exciting. It’s it offers hope for the world that, you know, people are popping all over,

Stan Kendz: in my experience was that every single thought we have can shift our state of consciousness, every single thought. And those of us who do advanced practices, become aware of those thoughts. And we can be very, very subtle in what we allow to go through our awareness or not. So to me, that’s one very profound thing. The other thing is that when Harry said, you know, these things are all here, they may only be here, because we still recognize them to be here, we may have, as some masters have said, the ability to fly, the ability to rejuvenate the ability to live as long as we choose to live. And if we keep accepting that they’re always going to be here, maybe they’re always going to be here. But if we allow ourselves to entertain the possibility that we’re divine, and anything we can imagine and hold our awareness on is possible. Maybe they won’t be here, either. That’s where I’m coming from.

Carol Oliker: Okay, I have a question and a comment. And the comment is, I have never heard anybody else describe that experience that I had to I was on a bus, I turned around, every seat was filled by a mannequin, and it was actually a little scary. You know, I mean, really, literally, a mannequin. I knew literally, I knew they were people. But I was seeing mannequins, who, so thank you for mentioning that, because I never heard anybody else say it. I didn’t know what I was having. You know,

Ruffina Anklesaria:  like that to me. When you see the movement of the limbs and everything, they look so unreal. Look, to me, this is a mannequin speaking to me. When an intruder in fact, that’s when the big self takes over. And you are not seeing it only from your small perception. That’s when I began to realize that my awareness was shifting in and out of this small Rufina seeing, and the bigger side of me that was cognizing things in their true perspective. And we put a lot of emphasis on the mannequin that we see. And we feel we are, until we realize that there’s a lot more happening as well, you know, it’s it’s really grand.

Carol Oliker: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for saying that. I’ve never heard anybody say it. And I didn’t know what was what I was having. And then the question is, are you going to be around for a while? I mean, this thing that you know, everybody wants to give you Sure.

Ruffina Anklesaria: Interesting tidbit. I mentioned to Rick. No, I’m not going to be around for a while. But I’d like to just mention Jesus as a point of interest is that there are certain times when this energy is very likely in the environment. And all of us who have it permanently, can tell you that when it’s full moon, you can go celestial like really, really, really quickly. I would say maybe I should start giving some football retreats, you know, because it happens so quickly. It’s so spontaneous. It actually happens quite easily with me now also, but don’t know what to do with it. It has happened. Like I said, I was just talking, I’m just talking to people and low moods happen, you know, but I don’t know what more to do with it, except maybe to have a retreat and see if somebody wants to try. I don’t know maybe happens in groups too. I’ve never spoken about this in public before. Neither has fantas. This is a

Francis Bennett: new thing, topic. Other things. This particular

Ruffina Anklesaria: topic. I know the transference for me is very real and very easily done as well. But at the same time, I don’t know what made it. So maybe there are other factors that I’m not aware of. But everyone I have done it when it has happened. And my daughter is here and she has amazing perception as well as she sees. She sees celestial beings. And so she is 15. And she started when she was 10. And she had previous experiences too. And I don’t know where this is leading to. That’s all I can say.

Rick Archer: But coming back to Fairfield on August 3 for a BatGap interview. Maybe you should do a retreat that weekend and you’re going to do one dance Ray Lewis, two people could go there,

Ruffina Anklesaria: maybe maybe I will have a full moon retreat. Who knows why not? Why not? Because I see there is value in bringing out your big self, obviously, that’s what it’s all about. And I see through this Shaktipat, which is direct transference, it enlivenment is a new, and you get the ability to bring all that complete silence, while your eyes are open. That’s a big deal. It integrates the growth of the transcendent, you find is relative after that, becomes very lively in your awareness, and will just become so much richer. It’s so much more beautiful, and unity, and all these other states of consciousness, and not flat and still rile and horrible. I don’t know why I thought so. But they’re not in full of love and compassion and richness. And it’s, it’s just more, it’s just more and more and more, it’s not. You’re right about that. It’s beautiful. Maybe if you want to inquire and I get some CEUs into them, I think they’re way to connect with you.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I’ll be putting this interview up. And it’ll link to her website as it does as it will to everyone else’s websites. So, you know, we’ve been talking about celestial perception or refined perception, I suppose there are levels of perception, which you would call refined, which were not, not yet celestial, you know, there must be many gradations of it. But a question I want to come back to, is the relevance of this to spiritual awakening is, is what we’re talking about here is something that everybody on the spiritual path, sooner or later is eventually going to experience. You can’t get stuck anywhere forever. Maybe they’re not gonna experience in this lifetime in this body, but is, is kind of facility and familiarity with the finer realms of creation, the celestial realms, and inevitable unfoldment in the course of everyone’s evolution, or is it some kind of a kind of an option? Like, you know, a special aptitude like musical ability? As I said, In the beginning, what do you guys have to say to that?

Harri Aalto: It’s all these states of awareness, the celestial levels, the, that from which the celestial levels arise, the end and our daily lives are all connected, they’re all eternal, there is no, you can’t take the celestial level, out of the our daily lives any more than you can take the celestial level out of that fundamental oneness of consciousness that exists universally that is there to be tapped into. So it is, the awakening process will always involve to certain degree, depending on which senses are predominant in that person’s physiology. Maybe it’s the sense of sight. So you’ll see that maybe you’ll hear it. In my case, I have four senses mildly in the celestial all the time,

Rick Archer: which one’s not lively. Taste,

Harri Aalto: senses,

Rick Archer: I know, you had four senses, you said, we have five senses. So which one’s not?

Harri Aalto: The end, all I’m saying. These these things are consciousness aren’t something you can dismiss, they’re going to they’re going to come into your awareness sooner or later as a clarity. Awake awakening is the experience of those states.

Rick Archer: Now, could one be sort of prematurely interested in this stuff? You know, I mean, if it’s not relevant at once, whatever one stage of development is, can it be some kind of Mind Candy that could actually be a distraction, and it will become relevant later on. But once just not even think about it?

Harri Aalto: I don’t think you should go after just the celestial levels, I think you should have integrated approach and you get techniques from the masters who know how to give them to you, you go through this process of refinement of the nervous system, you go through this process of refinement of the senses, you do advanced techniques, and these things unfold. After they’ve unfolded some of these states of consciousness, they’ll start revealing themselves to you and they won’t overpower you and you won’t turn into some kind of zombie or something. They overpower

Rick Archer: is an interesting word. I remember. first course I was ever on with Maharshi he was talking about God consciousness and he said, You really need the foundation of the self. He said, the immensity of God consciousness if if when fully experienced is so great, said God couldn’t even telephone from a distance if you didn’t have the self establish you’d be crushed. You need to establish that

Harri Aalto: if I didn’t have a wife when I went through GC, I’d be dead.

Rick Archer: You would have starve to death or what?

Harri Aalto: No, it was overpowering years and this is years ago and I How did how did Cathy help? She took care of the issues relative existence. The the sights and the sounds and the tastes and the touches were so overpowering. That’s really all I could do. I wouldn’t know how to write a check. My hand wouldn’t move that way.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Yeah, this woman said, there were seven times when I was sure the supernatural when I was sure the amount of energy and alchemy occurring would kill me. I’ve been totally brought to my knees, only to find love there. It’s been a gut wrenching trip. But I’m here to tell the tale. And I know the fear and pain of real awakening. My some traverses are razor thin, and my heart goes out to those trying to navigate through.

Harri Aalto: But this JC state hasn’t got anything to do with pain. No, no, no, that’s more like, maybe a cc beginning separation. Even Maharishi COVID Terrible. Right. So maybe it’s more likely than not the selection levels.

Rick Archer: Kristen, proportionally, haven’t been speaking as much. Do you have anything to add at this point?

Harri Aalto: She’s having a good time.

Kristin Kirk: I have sat with that question. Because, you know, we talked about it before. And in my experience, I don’t know. I mean, I’m meet people who are deeply beautiful, beautifully awake, and aren’t having all these experiences, and I wouldn’t. So it’s hard for me to say if there’s something comes next, or if that happens, but so I didn’t, oh, go ahead, go. I’m gonna say something No. I mean, I just tend to speak of my own experience, you know, and on a certain level, it makes sense that the more present people become, and the more surrendered they are, that those those containers have the sense of self, that are useful in the function of perceiving that when they start to soften and open, that the perception then is also less limited, becomes greater. So again, expansion isn’t necessarily happening, that the focal point of that that vantage point of perception starts to deepen. And so the perception gets broader and broader. And that, for me, the senses in the physical are just not just but they’re their divine function happening for this reality in those senses are a reflection of a deeper, a deeper function, a deeper reality a, that can continue, they open through all these different, subtler and subtler levels. So it would, it would make sense to me that, that there could be an evolution of opening to all the subtle perception. So I could see that being true. But I also wouldn’t want to put it forward as steps that someone should be reaching for, or, you know, I mean, I always point people back to what’s what’s what’s true for you, you know, what’s true there, and that some people, it may be useful to do techniques to develop that perception, because it’s in deep alignment with that God consciousness right there, where someone else it might be completely not useful and a distraction. And I would say, No, don’t do that. Just go sit, go sit on your pillow, you know. So

Francis Bennett: my sense too, is that this journey that we’re all on, unfolds in its own way, in differently for each person. And while I think you could say in a certain sense that, that very refined levels of consciousness and perception and so on, are inevitably going to unfold for everyone for every form. We also have to realize that there’s this context, that’s huge, of perhaps countless lifetimes, you know, so to say it’s going to all unfold in this one human incarnation, I think, is not accurate, because how can anyone say that you know, it? All of us are at different points of the journey. And I often use the analogy of if you had a track and a race was being run, and you had somebody starting at the starting line, you had somebody starting 20 yards beyond the starting line, you had so many starting 20 yards behind the starting line, and then maybe somebody starting two miles down the road, you know, from the starting line. That’s the reality. I think that we have because of karmic sort of dharmic kind of dynamics, we’re all at such different points of this journey. And there’s no telling, really, the precision of that, but how that’s going to play out how that’s going to unfold. But I think there can be a kind of innate trust within us that this consciousness, that that we really are that we can awaken to, that we can come to realize as being who we are on the deepest level, is utterly open and trusting and, and just allows whatever comes in allows the unfolding of this journey to unfold as it does, and it’s going to be different for every form.

Rick Archer: David Klein up here. You don’t have to be a

David Kupferman: Kristin, you were talking about surrender. And you were talking about devotion. So how does surrender and devotion? What role do they play? And how does one develop these things, if one isn’t feeling it?

Ruffina Anklesaria: In my case, I also the technique of Shaktipat, which is the opening of the eye that it just took place like that, of course, for me, it was on the basis of lots of meditation and advanced techniques and so on Also, but it spontaneously developed afterwards. Although I have to give credit to the fact that I am a Catholic. And I’ve been very devoted, in my tradition, to Mother Mary, to the church, I attended a Catholic school, all girls convent, and I was very much into the practical side of things as well. However, it was a definite shift in my consciousness, and then the capacity of my heart to love God and to love his creation. When my third eye open, and the bliss started to flow, it happened simultaneously. And my third eye opened, and I perceive the objects of Creation in the celestial value, I could feel the change in my heart taking place, to things sweet bliss developing, it’s very much it’s like it’s an inter, it’s an interaction that takes place. And that developed in me, outside an activity, more surrender more love of God, because I was feeling and seeing God in everything flowing and experiencing it at the same time. So surrender, devotion to God, sight of his creation, all of these unfolded, on falling together. And by opening my perception in that way, it simply burst open the energy in my heart and in the crown of my head, I was telling her it started to feel like I was walking in a fountain on top of my head, I would put my hands many times to see what’s on top of where, and when I was meditating. So many years have passed with me having the experience and still open my eyes to see who put on that bright light there, you know, I’m meditating, it’s bright light is inside all the time. So these things develop, surrender developed, you can’t make yourself surrender, cannot make yourself love God. Just as you can’t make yourself, love the person next to you. You cannot make yourself become devoted. These things unfold. Naturally, as your being unfolds. They are not things you can make happen. best you can do is do those meditation practices. I personally recommend Marshalese transcendental meditation, and do those practices that unfold that level of being in your awareness. If something happens with my shopkeeper to opening up as soon as funny part is happening.

Francis Bennett: Part of my retreat today was about surrender. And it precisely agrees completely with what Rufina just said, which is that surrender is not something you do. It’s at the deepest core of your being. That presence, that consciousness, that pure awareness is pure openness, it is surrender. And the way to get to surrender is not by doing anything, particularly, but it’s by touching into that reality and realizing it. And that reality is itself like surrender, you could say, the essence of surrender. But a lot of people think of surrender is something you work yourself up to or some emotion you have to create. And that’s I don’t think that’s what it is. I think it’s surrender is realization itself. You know, and when you when you tend toward intend toward that realization, you’re approaching surrender. You’re approaching that consciousness that’s utterly open. And that’s that’s just what we were talking about today at the retreat.

Kristin Kirk: I’d like to say something too. I think we’re, I’m drawn to speak as another another aspect of surrender. Part of my process had been being with all the densities that were, were coming up. And there’s identification there. So there is a, an investment in the emotional story, your thought pattern, so there was a very visceral engagement with what was coming up, you know, I mean, I think this is what people’s lives are about where we’re engaged with as an attachment. And that my process was, was actually the practice of surrendering so that my relationship to surrender was actually a very active, a very active engaged process. And that’s what my, that’s what my whole process was, that something would come up. And I would feel the pain, the the depth, the excruciating the hatred, the whatever, these intense these things that were coming up, that were coming to the surface, and that, for me, surrender and devotion, were then the same thing. Because if everything is God, then this hatred rising up on me as God, this terror rising up in me as God, and if I truly trust, if everything is one, then there’s a willingness to then surrender into the experience that was coming forward. And by complete, full meeting of that experience, recognizing everything is truth, then the contraction, the the identification with that experience would release, the substance that was created from the attachment that was held in my being would dissolve the de Vak beings connected with the supporting that whole creation would then also engage in that releasing, and that the surrender and the devotion were then the same as the love the love of everything. And through that process, as things continue to resolve, then the the radiance, the golden truth that is deeper than those contracted thought patterns or emotional holdings would come forward. So yeah, so i Those are the same for me. I love your question.

Rick Archer: There’s another phenomenon that we might just the remaining time to ask you guys about. A number of people that I’ve interviewed have, for the most part, have spontaneously begun to experience channeling, you know, like Mercedes curricle. She was sitting meditating one day and all sudden, Mary Magdalene started, she was convinced it was Mary Magdalene started coming through and dictating all this stuff, which she wrote down. Andre Morgana, you know, had gone through the whole TM thing and very well established in nice state. And she ended up going to South America and now she she sort of actually takes on the whole persona of Hiawatha and the Vovo Allah Molly who has some kind of South American entity. There are others too Jenna Molly I interviewed just last week she says she I don’t know if it’s channeling but she talks to Jesus and Buddha and you know the these higher beings. So what do we make of this whole channeling thing? Does anyone have any opinion about it? The people I spoke to seem very clear and they don’t seem like they’ve been overtaken by some entity. It’s does it have what’s the significance in the whole spiritual phenomenon that we’re seeing in the world today?

Kristin Kirk: I can definitely speak to it but I was just speaking so if anyone else says yeah,

Harri Aalto:  go ahead.

Kristin Kirk: Yeah. It makes sense to me in terms of people opening in the vibrations and the planet shifting that some of the veils that were really in place and and tight that were tight are are softening and opening so that people are having access to consciousness in all all different forms. So I mean, I experienced the channeling is different than then awakening in terms of accessing someone else’s consciousness. And I think there’s definitely a value and a place for it, but that I don’t know. I was just

Ruffina Anklesaria: I have had predictive dreams before the opening and my poor dad in my family is wrong. In the family, but I would say that since this phenomenon has taken place with me, I find that I have been able to have very clear dreams which I don’t consider dreams of the different gods. And because I’m appreciating gods from all traditions, Hindu, Catholic sorrow, Astron, and so forth, my always on all of these veil, I have had very deep and real experiences with some of these gods, which of course, I will never tell anybody about it. I don’t know why I’m saying it now, but including Christ. And Lord Vishnu, Lord Rama, and various others over the years, and whenever they came to me Maha Lakshmi, whenever they came to me, I would immediately rise out of my consciousness and no, I knew that they had visited and either blessed me or told me something of significance. Actually, it’s really kind of interesting. I just remembered. One night I dreamt of Sri Satya Sai Baba. Again, remember, I’m Christiane onto my tradition and all my prayers and such. And he told me in in that state that he was sending me a gift, he was giving a gift to me and my husband, of course, like most mornings, because my husband had predicted dreams, I would tell him what the day held for us, we would normally get some indication what the day would be like. So he would know whatever it was, I told him, I said, such as Obama came to me. And he said he was sending us a gift. It’s like, okay, it turned out that a friend of ours, who was gravely ill came to visit, she was moving to Hawaii, Florida, spent her last days there. And she was discussing with all the things she had with him, she brought me a vial of ash, from Suzanne to set up, you know, and then she later brought me speak to you. I was not a specific devotee of Sri Sai Baba. But I love God in all these forms, you think the deities notice. So that was just one connected connecting point of my dream and reality, just to verify that these devices do exist on that fine level. And the light that I can see outside also shines inside. When it shines inside, I get to see the celestial level where Maharshi says, the gods reside, he says it clearly. So if other people are experiencing God consciousness and the celestial levels, the gods will appear to them, and they will give information. And I imagine channeling but also be possible. I have not had channeling and but I just thought I would share with you that I do have these experiences of Lord Vishnu. And now that you said that I’m taking you back into the experience over the years, you know, and remember to ask me for an August, okay.

Rick Archer: No, I was I was kind of thinking that we would make this a marathon we go on for three hours until 10 o’clock or something. But then I learned just today that we have to get out of here. Ultimately, by 930, we’ll have to wrap this up by about nine in order to pack up all the equipment and have everything totally out. So I would I guess what I’d like to do is have the people on the panel make some kind of concluding remark. I don’t know if Rufino feels she needs to make one addition to what she just said. But if everyone should sort of make some sort of concluding remark, that’d be great. And then and then I’m afraid we’ll have to wrap it up. Although I’d really like to do this for the next three hours. So you don’t have to go in sequential order. But based on everything we’ve talked about tonight, is there any thing that whatever comes to your mind that you’d like to say in conclusion?

Stan Kendz: Well, I started the beginning. So I may start at the end. I think that it’s possible for the kind of idea that I would like to leave everybody with is every human being has the possibility of making an entire journey back to wholeness. And when you get there, every single thing you desire is possible for you to experience and live with. And you don’t have to have the negativity in the world any longer. And I think I’d like to If I live for anything, I’d like to inspire people to take that path and to go in that direction, and to materialize heaven on earth with me. Thank you.

Rick Archer: And, Stan, is there anything that if you would have to offer people individually or in groups, if they were to get in touch with you, would you be giving courses? Would you go out in the lecture, if somebody invited you in a lecture service, some kind of one on one sort of

Stan Kendz: research is unique, it’s never been done. And it’s unprecedented. And I think it validates the fact that human beings have the opportunity in one lifetime, to culture themselves until they can command the laws of nature. That that’s something that is very exciting, and I can’t wait to share it. Because like Vienna, I feel it’s my dharma to get out there and share it with,

Rick Archer: okay, and we’ll talk about how I can set it up so people can get in touch with you, if they want to hear

Stan Kendz: much, it was a pleasure to be with you on tonight.

Kristin Kirk: Words are coming at the moment. So if you’re Francis or Harry popcorn style

Harri Aalto: or the conch consciousness is available, pure consciousness is available, I think, for everybody, just like you were saying, right? And, and the full potential of that consciousness is available, but I think many people even if they have the experience, maybe tend to minimize it or maybe even appreciate it a little bit. Pure Consciousness is very natural, very normal. Everybody has it, the celestial levels are universal justice universal as pure consciousness. And they can be even. not so obvious. Let’s put it that way. They’re so simple, so natural, you can even see stuff and discount it. My advice is to whatever you’re experiencing, give it its full value. And that’s how the benefits from that experience will come. If you have a transcending experience, don’t say, that was nothing, say it was everything. Go for it, think about it, even talk about this, what Maharishi has recommended we do. I started talking about the experiences five, six years ago writing about them. It’s, even though I’ve had these experiences my entire life, just the talking about it, accepting them, knowing them has tremendously increased the knowledge level, which has increased the joy level, which has increased the ability to get the benefits from it. I don’t talk about benefits very much, but they’re all there. It sounds like hey, you should be able to turn that corporate goal. But you can if it has any value. So I do agree with you, I don’t disagree. So all I’m advising everybody is to pay attention to experience accept them for what they are for the fullness, not for their emptiness for their. And the benefits that arise out of them can be very subtle, or the only experiences that are powerful or subtle. And quiet. That’s it, folks.

Rick Archer: You don’t have to make concluding remarks. You don’t want something now, Kristen? Yeah. Okay.

Kristin Kirk: Yeah, I think um, you know, this whole seeking thing of looking outside oneself is, yeah, you can do that forever. And that the the exquisiteness of what’s happening is happening all the time right here. And if you go the other direction, you know, into, oh, sorry, I’m banging the microphone. As the as the heart pounding. You know, going into your own. The everything is right there inside. So you don’t have to go anywhere. So I would just invite that curiosity and the invitation to be present with what’s really happening right now for you in this moment. And that this is an incredible there’s an incredible thing happening right, right here. You know, like, just washing your dishes is a profound thing. The water is conscious. The soap is conscious, the dishes conscious, you are conscious, like this whole thing. So I would just invite you to open in more presence to to what’s happening now. Yeah, and that you don’t have to go anywhere.

Ruffina Anklesaria: I think just I would like to thank you, Rick, for doing such a marvelous job all these years. Just like we’re stepping out At least I’m stepping out for the first time, you’re doing something truly amazing. By making it possible for shy people like me to step out

Rick Archer: It’s the Powder Milk biscuits.

Ruffina Anklesaria: It’s also a delight for me to hear other people share some of the experiences that I’ve had intimately for such a long time, including my friend who came forward with the mannequin analogy as well. I’m very appreciative. I’d like to say that, I don’t know if there is going to be any real value in my continuing to speak like this, but I will make myself available. And if it is found to be useful, I will continue to live here. I have several lectures lined up already. And I this is the first time I’m speaking. But I will be speaking in a couple of locations, Salt Lake City, San Jose, and Seattle and so forth. But I will continue if it is useful. And I’m happy for the forum. And again, I thank Greg and the organizers for making it possible for us to all come together today. And to serve that part of consciousness and to bring out some beautiful gems, golden celestial gems that are really silent. You know, silence is golden, they say, and I think there’s a reason for it. Thank you,

Rick Archer: Francis, speak now or forever hold your peace. Good.  I’m in peace.

Francis Bennett: Okay. So let me make a few concluding remarks. Most of the people on this panel, we may do the same. We’re I’ve submitted a proposal to do the same thing at the science and non duality conference out in San Jose out in late October. So we’ll be doing, we’ll have to fit into an hour somehow. All of these people I have interviewed with the exception of Ruffina, as I said, but I’ll be linking to all of their websites on the page that I put up about this interview on You can check out their websites to see what they may have to offer. And I won’t go into all the details that I always say at the end of every interview, you know the drill, go to poke around, you’ll see all kinds of good stuff. So I guess that’s it. Thanks for listening or watching and we’ll see you next week.