Nukunu Larson Transcript

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Nukunu Larsen Interview

Rick Archer: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer. This is an ongoing series of conversations with spiritually Awakening people. For more information or to help support our efforts, please visit My guest today is Nukunu Larsen, Nukunu’s over in Denmark. And as usual, I’ve enjoyed getting to know him over the past week by listening to a lot of recordings, seven hours or so worth of them. And yet, he has an interesting personal stereo story to tell and all sorts of interesting insights as a spiritual teacher. So we’ll be covering all that over the next couple of hours. So Luca, was born a couple of years before I was in Odense, Denmark, in 1947. And he left school at 13 years old and was declared hopeless. So he was given no education certificate now, I’ll let him pick up the story from there.

Nukunu Larsen: Okay. I think it’s worth telling one’s personal story. So people can relate.

Rick Archer: Yeah, exactly.

Nukunu Larsen: And becomes personal. And also because you can never predict what’s going to happen for a person. It’s, I mean, I could never imagine that I will end up going to India and doing all these things. I came out of a painting Family House Painters, and as you said, I left school early, because I was a hopeless case, I, I was always sitting and looking out of the window and dreaming about being out in nature. I was always deeply connection with nature, always. And so I became a painter, house painter. And then I went into the army. And it was a big change, because my biggest my closest friends, there were school teachers, and they ignited my inferiority complexes, like, I could nothing. So I decided to coming back from the military to start get some basic education in mathematic and language and, and then I got very interested in mathematic. And I actually ended up studying mathematics at university. And then I felt it was too superficial. So I went to philosophy. And there, I was very happy that I had a practical background. So I didn’t get lost, because all these head people and I mean, just you would have seen when we had parties, how would these people got something to drink, how what happened to that came out of their head. So I was happy I was had a practical background. And then it went on dies, luckily, I mean, you will find out one day, when really come home to yourself that you were never the doer or the chooser here. So life provided me with a situation with a TM teacher. Spin all in was his name. And these early days, may be 74. Seven years, and he said you should learn to meditate. When I said really, this metaphysic What should I use that for? Yeah. And I was very odd and Moxie still very much into Marxism. And I enjoyed marks his points of view of this very practical. But when I sat down and repeated this Mantra, I felt for the first time something is happening in my life, that is important. And then I really stick to it totally for two years. So okay, I tell

Rick Archer: ya, sorry, no, keep going. Oh.

Nukunu Larsen: And then I started sitting on so many feelings, because it was like them Mantra drilled, very deep in. But then all these deep anger and sorrow and deep feeling came up and I didn’t know what to do with them. And when I asked the people there, they didn’t know either, really. And I was like an atom bomb.

Rick Archer: Yeah, they just call it on stressing. Yeah.

Nukunu Larsen: You know, but I was really grateful to this transcendental meditation very and then And then, as my story went on, my girlfriend left me for one day to the other, and I was totally devastated. And all these feelings, and then I met Osho. And it’s funny with Osho, because a year, a year before, I had been on a long yoga course. And I saw pictures of different people on that yoga course. And there was also a bald man, giving a talk in India didn’t pay much attention. I just saw that picture on that yoga course. And then maybe three, four months after when I came home, I sat down and meditate and ask who’s my guru? Who I was very connected with you’re going under those days, was receiving all the from self realization fellowship and, and the cause of a choice by Yogananda spoke the Autobiography of a Yogi have to have the heart and the devotion. So I thought he would appear you can believe it. Then also, this bald guy came and I didn’t even know what he was name was,

Rick Archer: I thought also had long hair. Yeah, it’s right here at different times, maybe

Nukunu Larsen: on the top, he was bald, okay. I was I suppose A ha. Okay. And then somehow forgot about that. And I was in Africa as part of my, my study at the university to finish. And then I came back there that happened with my girlfriend and and then I met a guy that was also interested in Knoxville to start meditating, or she was meditations and reading his books, and charge me very deep. So I went to Pune in 79 Not because I wanted to become a sannyasi. But I actually have in mind to go up north also on see poverty that Yogananda talks about. So you can probably relate to

Rick Archer: what I’m saying. I have Yogananda’s book on the shelf back there.

Nukunu Larsen: Yeah, I can see I could see Yogananda up there. And I ended up asking Osho for a name because I want to talk to him. So he gave me a name and, and said that my work my life purpose would be to, to grow love where there was only stones. And I started doing all kinds of groups in Pune. And I just, you know, the invitation just come for came from existence. And I start going back into groups and therapy groups and, and then, also, I was totally devoted to OSHA for so many years, from 79 to 94. And then 90, January 90, also left the body. And it was really a funny day, because that day, I couldn’t find my mother, you know, this necklace with his picture. I couldn’t find it that day. And somehow I in somehow I was relieved, in a way because I felt he was start talking a lot and talking a lot and bla bla bla bla bla bla bla. But I, I loved him and I love the people around him and I had it become a pool of therapies those days, like a proof and who knows. So in late 91, maybe in November, I was going to give a tantric group together with another woman in in Kona. I was not really doing Tantra. She was doing the practical but I was doing the older group work. And just the day before the group started, I met a woman just come from Lucknow and not just met concetti poverty. And she was had a cup of coffee and I said oh my god, I had to go. I went the next day in the central group and and when I saw these 24 naked people, I just said, Oh, no. It’s finished. I said to my co therapist, I’m sorry. It’s not right. But I had to go. I cannot I cannot be here. And I left and I actually never came back to Pune. I went up to poverty and then and then those days I was in 91 and the late 91. So I was just told to go to Carlton Hotel in Lucknow and I may be lucky to find people who could show me and different morning when they came with him, he added they’d been isn’t required all. So they came kind of holding him. And I said to myself, he cannot be an enlightened Master because it looked just like an ordinary man with a needed head. And, and I was used to OSHA, you know. So I sat down, and I just felt my heart connected with him. And then I could feel I could feel him. And he looked at me and called me up. And he was laughing at me for half an hour. And I said to him, and when I go deep in meditation, I don’t want to come out, I feel so happy. And he said, Very good, very good. When you come there, let the self embrace the self. And then he left. And now you’re getting to see I didn’t understand what he meant, really. But I was deeply taught by the end, he said to me, you you have come what you came for. And you can go, and really, but I don’t really know. So, and something very other thing very important that happened afterwards, because of the people around him. They came up to me and said to me that poverty said you were very special. And I just cried. Because nobody have said, but so that I respected so much have said that to me that I was visual, I mean, my childhood. And I just cried and cried. And like, that was very important to feel all this pain, but also feel seen. So I went to go, and I spent three weeks on the beach, reading Nisargadatta Maharaj. And I just kind of digesting the whole thing. At that time, I have started at Osho community in Denmark together with another guy, and it has been running for nearly 10 years. So when I came back from khalwa, then in January 92. I felt strange, but I was still doing my work there. And I continue. And then the autumn 92 They were having given a group there. Enlightenment intensive those days, four or five, four days group about who am I. And we were sitting together with the people, I’m having a cup of tea, and my co host of a piece put a video on of Osho. And I turned around. And I saw him. And in that moment, it happened. And it was gone immediately. But I knew when that moment all doubt was gone. And I just knew I was everything. And it was not outside me or inside me. It just was you know, I was very, very deeply touched. And it was gone. I had no idea how to get back to it. I had no idea.

Rick Archer: Did you ever had experiences like that before? Or was this

Nukunu Larsen: Not so strong. I have had two experiences of deep love and but I never had an experience of clarity like that, that there was absolutely it was a shift in my whole perspective of life. It was like like, I saw life totally from another perspective, from consciousness, not from the personality. And the personality was also part of consciousness. But I was consciousness itself to give it a word, something that is difficult to say. But I felt literally that in involuntarily I fell from the periphery of the mind into the sender. Just without me doing it. It just happened. I fell into the totally unmoving silence sender of the mind from the periphery and it was not because it is something I just saw him and I saw myself that was but there was nobody there who could recognize me or respond to me in the OSHA community. And I felt no attraction to go back to Pune do more programs. I went off to Lucknow again in 93 in the autumn and poverty didn’t go with me at all. I was cried what, what am I doing here? What should I do, and I was not finished, it was still I have had that experience, but I could not come back to it. And then at that time I have started doing the spontaneous surrender. I cannot say that it was because of that surrender that it came again. But I also don’t think it would have come without it. The surrender was basically four steps that was natural for me, I tuned into my heart, I knew the truth is in my heart, I know, but I cannot reach it. But I know it’s there. So I would go in and say, to the Divine, I want to merge with you and nothing else. Just that I have no Criterion are no demands, I just want to merge with you. Just like a little child, talk to the Father. And the second step kind of was, I don’t know how to do it. So I gave it over to you to complete it. From this moment on, I will see everything in my life is your grace. Where did I get that from, of course, my many years in India. And I’m so grateful to the oil, Indian culture that is disappearing, I feel in many ways. But the very, very old Indian culture where all the yoga, the mantras, the Yantras, the Tantra, where all this comes from. So I’ve been so much in India and picked all this up. So this was the kind of thing I did every evening before going to bed. And I would often cry going to bed. So did it make it one I don’t know. But that evening in love now in 93. December, I also kneel down and said I want to mess with you when I’m not finished. Take me away, I need to be taken away. I need to be feel a very good connection with

Rick Archer: you. Yes, I’m feeling as if I could just interject a comment. What comes across in your story is the sincerity and the intensity of your your quest, your desire. And this comes across in so many people’s stories, who really achieved some results if we want to use those words, which is it’s not so much the means they used. It’s more like the desire, you know, the the totality. Yeah, the sincerity and the, the totality with which they throw themselves into this the search. And then, you know, as Jesus said, Seek and ye shall find.

Nukunu Larsen: And that’s great. That’s great.

Rick Archer: And if a person is like, yeah, so it’s interesting, I read a book, and now I go to the movies. You know, it’s like the it’s kind of a half hearted sort of approach yields half hearted results.

Nukunu Larsen: It’s all or nothing. Yeah. And my life was like that. That was nothing else. When people asked me, What are you looking for, and said I’m looking for, for something, I don’t know what it is, but I feel is missing. I can and the pain could be so deep. I remember standing in at the ranch, I was at the ranch with Osho Those days are gone. Now, I don’t know how many of the listeners know all this, but also moved to America for a time. And we had what we call drive by Darshan where we were standing alone. And you won’t believe it. But sometimes I felt just die so I can get peace. Because I felt looking at him I had to go on. I could see that there was something there. And I often thought about punches Plato’s and what was Judas? You know, I think Judas saw Jesus, but he got desperate. Because how to get there how to get there. He could see that this man had something like I could see with Osho or for God’s sake, how do I get it? And sometimes I want wanted him to be dead so I could get peace?

Rick Archer: Why would that have given you peace?

Nukunu Larsen: I don’t know. It’s like you could then I could go back to Denmark and just live an ordinary life.

Rick Archer: I see. So as long as he was around showing this example of what was possible, you couldn’t yes, no. But of course there are other examples, you know, so if he if he dies, and there’s more, but but there’s Yogananda and all the stories and all the books and all this I know

Nukunu Larsen: I know. So let me just slowly come to an end so that Good evening in 93 in December I kneeled down and said, Please take me where I need to be. I’m not finished. And next day some of my tennis fans come up and say, Oh, well no we’re gonna go to Rishi case. And poverty was going to be somewhere in in Delhi. So Sonia, why don’t I go to recheck is also want always wanted to see conga meet conga and I couldn’t get a ticket so I went into the VIP office and we came to Haifa took a taxi to Rishikesh, and that is in January 94. Walk down to that little town down to the bridge locks medulla. And I mentioned to my from the such a lineage, and I close my heart and I close my eyes could feel her heart immediately. And I think she’s been awakened for a year then. And she was so it looks so new and fresh and simple. And I said to her, Can I meet your master? And she said yes, of course Maharaji and all an old master in a lineage called the sakshi lineage which goes way back. And I started sitting every morning with Maharajji. And this was the path of devotion. That was the path of love. So I failed I’ve been with three important masters have been with OSHO Meditation therapy, poverty, self inquiry, and now I met love devotion. So I spent a lot of time they are with Ganga with my Rati which ng my. And one moment, one morning after I’ve been tender Gayatri as usual. I was sitting in my little case house roof and drinking coffee looking at the mountains. And I just listen to some pop music was just here, looking at the mountains the beautiful morning and I was not looking for anything I was not trying to avoid anything. And it was like for a moment at all open like a gentle slip that if my mind could have stopped it, it would have stopped it. Then it came again the shift and it came very strong now and I cried a lot. I spent two months in the jungle in Rishikesh and losing it, gaining it losing it gaining it. And then I started to find out how how it came back. It came back when I relaxed totally. Or if I felt also on top of it on my Rati archenemy also at the sakshi lineage. I felt very close to that. Especially such a Baba who was the guru of Maha Rati. And Maharaja was the guru of Centrify. So and then, you know, when I came back to Denmark, that spring, I was so scared of using it. Because you know, coming back to the west with whatever that is, it’s not so supportive. I was very scared. And of course, I had coming in and out of it. And I will say I’m still cultivating it. And because every moment comes dancing is this. Every moment is this God comes or something else. It comes as houses bodies, cause so my work changes, and I start, of course, trying to get people and help people into the same state. So and the work I do today I call non dual therapy. Because I feel that that people sometimes still need to see things in their minds. Otherwise it will sabotage age, if they’re not in touch with if they don’t know. So I use all my skill from all these days and meditate in therapy and meditation and then Dama doors Dama doors, many of them that has come to me during my work spontaneously. Yeah.

Rick Archer: Do you feel that you still lose it from time to time and have to sort of relax back into it? Or is it more stabilized now?

Nukunu Larsen: When I’m not present, it is not there. But when I’m, when I’m present, it’s there. But if I am not really present if I’m drowning in activities, or I’m not really here now. And of course, I’m not aware of it. But the moment I become present, just coming here.

Rick Archer: And sort of in the background, let’s say you’re driving in busy traffic, and you’ve got to really pay attention to what you’re doing. But is there a sort of a back drop of silence? Yeah, it’s always Yeah. So it’s just not in the foreground, because you’re busy focusing on things. It’s just

Nukunu Larsen: like the screen in the movie, you know? That you can get lost in the movie for a while. And then you are. You’re the screen? Yeah. Yeah,

Rick Archer: and you say, you’re still deepening into it, I think was the phrase use so and

Nukunu Larsen: yeah, because it’s not a state. It is. ongoing recognition. As as long as you have a body and as long as you have alive in the body. Gods come dancing as all kinds of other things. He’s hiding in whatever masquerade he comes in, like, like I love Rama, Krishna saying, he says that the magic is unreal, but the magician is real. It’s really so true. So I teach, of course, people really two basic things, that you must face impermanence. Otherwise, forget about it. If you start seeing any solidity in your experiences, there will be separation, that will be you and that. So, so it is so important. And it’s absolutely without it, I cannot, there will be separation. So,

Rick Archer: so facing permanence, let’s, let’s understand that. So that would mean not believing with any kind of adamant certainty that any kind of permanent fulfillment is going to be found in changing circumstances is that what you would mean by face impermanence?

Nukunu Larsen: Yeah, obviously, that your perceptions are impermanent. Your feelings, your body, your deep, deep senses of whatever it is, it’s all passing. And it’s not really there. Because it’s all God. It’s all that. So in the beginning, when you’re facing permanence, you will see but life is a flow. If you have, for instance, a strong feeling of sadness, or jealousy, you’re, I tell people, just feel it, relax into it. If you give it names, it takes you away. If you label it, and start opinionated about it, or analyzing it, it distracts you. Because in this moment, sadness, or jealousy is your Enlightenment. That comes, your Enlightenment comes as sadness or jealousy. And that is a radical. So I have people to say just relax, feel the sadness, come close. Don’t label it just relax into it. How does it feel in the body? What is the smell of it? What is the taste of it? Notice that is changing. And after a while is a yes. Is Now something else that ask them to relax into that. This is one of my brain ways to work. And after a while, they say, I’m fine. I’m fine. I’m fine. Okay? I’m comfortable. Which piece? Then I ask them to say I am this. I am this piece. Say that. You’re not sattwa Merci. I’m dead, sir. And the very language can take people deeper in to Qian. So Advaita, we call that John that stayed where you come into a state that is absolutely permanent and not changing. And I asked them totally identify with that. And then I asked them to invite all they went through into this space and see what happens to it and that is VGR then then there is a chance that you’ll really come home. Because if you only have this space of peace, silence, no chains, there will maybe still be a fear of going out and meet world meet the world. Mr. elucid. So I sometimes say it’s like you’re sitting in a cave and meditate and you say I’m not this I’m not dead and you are relaxing through all the layers and you come down to a deep peace and presence. And then you go out in the marketplace. And then when you let it all in, it’s a matter of the heart has nothing to do with sinking. So

Rick Archer: the thinking is kind of a tool, isn’t it? I mean, let’s say your your examples of sadness or jealousy. So let’s say you’re jealous of somebody think, Oh, I love so and so but she’s with so and so. And I can, and I won’t be happy unless I’m with her. And there’s this sort of like yearning for some kind of fulfillment outside yourself in some situation, which you don’t have control over. And so what she was you’re saying is, turn it around, and you know, look within your own heart for the fulfillment that you think you’re gonna find outside. And and if you melt into that, then you find you find that fulfillment, which you were actually looking for mistaken. In some, some outside things.

Nukunu Larsen: You can’t get anything that you don’t have already. You cannot get in from outside. But these are deep matters, of course.

Rick Archer: It’s interesting also to consider, I think I heard you say this in some recording that, you know, if you love somebody or hate somebody or you know, some different feeling towards someone else, you’re you’re really only kind of projecting qualities within yourself on on those people are on those situations.

Nukunu Larsen: Your name is Rick, right? Yes. Yeah. It is. Another major thing I want to talk about is projection. That if we don’t learn to take our projections back, we will create separation again. Yeah. And they’re both positive and negative, and maybe the positive or the more dangerous. And because the moment we see something positive, when we have admiration, for instance, and oh, you’re fantastic. You’re so beautiful. I wish I was like you. And you know, I love you so much. And like in romantic love. These positive projection has to be taken back. So I had a woman many years ago who came and Satsang and said, Look who I found a man in my life, and I love him so much. You know, I took her up in the chair. And I said, Yeah. Now just imagine he’s sitting in front of you. And just look at all this. Then close your eyes. And feel, why is this love coming from you see putting it into you? He’s He’s stuffing it into you? Or is it arising in you? Yes, it is. It’s arising in me. And then I told her Can you say to this man, I take responsibility for this love and set you free. It’s very important. That love becomes a sharing, not a need. Not a better game. And if you start having glimpses of the truth, if you still fall victim of projection, you lose it. Because you create separation again, and fight and dramas. So I also teach a lot about projection because it’s so important. And we are living in a world everybody’s projecting.

Rick Archer: Yeah, it seems so important. I mean, so using love as an example. So many people fall in love. And then how long does it last? You know? And, and then they fall in love with somebody else? And how long does that last. And it just kind of keeps cycling around chasing after fulfillment, which is not to say we shouldn’t fall in love or have relationships, but

Nukunu Larsen: one of the one of the things I say to people is that love cannot come and go. So if the body leaves you if and if you are not with somebody and that body leaves you don’t try to get loved to leave you why it’s you. And I feel that is often the pain when people are divorcing or leaving each other that Oh, I have to hate him. I have to hate her. Because we are not together anymore. And it’s such a misunderstanding. Maybe you are not with the body anymore. But love is still there because love is just your inner being. And it’s painful to try to get rid of that.

Rick Archer: So if love is our inner being and fulfillment is our inner nature. And if we’re if ultimately we’re really self sufficient within ourselves, then what’s the purpose of having relationships?

Nukunu Larsen: Yeah, sharing. Beautiful. There is no purpose no really like that.

Rick Archer: But everyone wants to do it.

Nukunu Larsen: If I don’t want anything in a relationship, I don’t need it. But if life brings around that I we have a very open relationship my partner in me is not really my partner we are friends and

Rick Archer: She’s good at setting up webcams.

Nukunu Larsen: Yeah. And you know, we share this very deeply the whole thing. We we had a have a very deep connection, that is spiritual.

Rick Archer: But you say, you say it’s open. So if I don’t mean to pry into your personal business, but I’m trying to use so

Nukunu Larsen: you have totally free to do whatever

Rick Archer: so if you met someone else, or she met someone else, no problem. There wouldn’t be any pinch or any trauma.

Nukunu Larsen: It’s not so likely anymore that I meet somebody I’m not so much into, to sex anymore. It’s like God eating my sex. The Divine is eating it. That’s what I feel. But it’s taken many years, actually.

Rick Archer: Yeah.

Nukunu Larsen: Should I talk about that?

Rick Archer: If you want. You’re also 67 years old. So it’s natural. You’re weren’t you’re not 18? anymore, either, you know?

Nukunu Larsen: I don’t know. But I feel the space. fulfill me so deeply. That it kind of it’s not really important.

Rick Archer: Yeah. A lot of people, a lot of spiritual people talk about that. They say that, and it might scare some people. But

Nukunu Larsen: they said what I that’s why I say to you, should we talk about Yeah, no, it’s good to

Rick Archer: talk about everything. Because Because people run into this stuff, you know, if they find that their sex drive is is kind of disappearing, or it’s not so important to them anymore. They might think, something wrong with me, you know, maybe I should take a pill.

Nukunu Larsen: But the people who fall into it and feel it. They will not bother about it. It’s the people who listen to this talk. Yeah, that don’t know what we talk about.

Rick Archer: Right? If it happens to them, then they’ll understand.

Nukunu Larsen: Yeah, then they will not miss it. Right? But but they can get scared. Just like they hear. I had Satsang last night in Malmo in Sweden. And again, one vamos that talking about this emptiness. And I said, our nature is not emptiness. It’s a terrible translation of Sonia or Sunyata. Is such a misunderstanding, some kind of dead emptiness? No, it’s not. It’s so alive. And then it’s a no thing. But it’s, it’s so alive. It’s so magical. It’s not a dead emptiness. Again, that somebody’s understanding here, it’s very important, we say that. And we’re six. If it goes away slowly, as I feel it has done for me gently over the years. I don’t miss it. Because this word comes is so fulfilling. So, such a contentment that has nothing really to do with the body. So so people must not misunderstand that. You know what Ramana calls it. What he’s called, he says that Brahma Chari, it means that living in Brahman, and it makes a lot of sense to me, that the more and more you live in the divine comes naturally.

Rick Archer: Yeah. And there are many stories of that. It is puzzling that some gurus seem to be a little hung up on it still and have had all kinds of sexual problems but, but some of the great ones, you know, Ananda my mom, she and her husband were like brother and sister from the start, you know, because she just couldn’t go there with her stayed at her state of consciousness,

Nukunu Larsen: let me say something, if you cannot see that your six feelings are also the Enlightenment. Then you are also off like receiving celibacy and all these this understanding that you always try to avoid something you try to push it away. That just shows you have not understood that every single issue Enlightenment, also your sexuality. But it’s so misunderstood and, and painful that people start rejecting something and it creates separation and delusion, and it runs. We have to and that’s what I’m very grateful but around Osho I just want to share a little bit about that. All the years in the tuna, I have no repression I have not experienced you know, we, we we have groups and all kinds of things. So if I had any fantasies about anything that needs to be lived out. It was leaked out. I’m very grateful for all these years.

Rick Archer: Yeah, that was very different in the TM movement. There was a lot of repression.

Nukunu Larsen: Yeah, I know, yeah, Maharishi Mahesh

Rick Archer: you know, show we’re like, you know, that they’re always sniping at each other and saying things about one another, and so on so forth.

Nukunu Larsen: Osho’s teaching was be total, but with awareness. And then many people forgot awareness.

Rick Archer: Right. So it became a little hedonistic. You’re saying,

Nukunu Larsen: yeah, it became. Yeah, you know,

Rick Archer: yeah.

Nukunu Larsen: But, but I never chose to all that. It just happened in this life of this body mind here. And very important. You can listen to my story, but everybody has to walk their own line. Everybody has walked their own story. There’s a totally agree with Krishnamurti, there’s no highway, there is no path to the truth. Absolutely not. Everybody has to meet themselves totally deeply. And, and you have to go alone here. In a way, until you see there is no one alone. Or together until you see that there is no one alone or together. You go beyond that. But I think many people are scared of meeting themselves. So totally like that. Give me some teaching. Give me some belief system give me something.

Rick Archer: Think a lot of people, you know, like yourself, they they really want to meet themselves, so to speak, they really want to realize, but they feel kind of blocked, like what next? How can I break through, you know, where’s my teacher? What’s What should should I practice something I feel stuck, you know, I want it but I’m not getting it, or I had it, but I lost it. And so a lot of people are kind of looking for what they can do or whom they can meet, that would clear the obstacles that they appear that appear to them to be blocking their fulfillment.

Nukunu Larsen: I usually say to people that three things are very important. You hang around with people who have realized this, hang around with them, and you may get the measles right away. Because it’s a recognition. It’s like I say to people, if somebody comes into the door, who is very sad, you will say, Oh, this man is so sad. Because you will feel the sadness, because this man is not really outside you, it’s your experience will be feeling somebody come into the door who’s awakened. You may also feel that and it’s so simple. It can be so simple. It’s just a simple recognition of something you also already and so hang around people who are clear who’s awakened and find a practice of meditation or something where you become present where you meet where you go in. Because even right if even if you have had a glimpse of of this, it will go if you cannot come in you know, in one of the seven schools, in chants and China years ago, whole time they said that you actually first start meditating when you have had a glimpse. There was two schools one said you had to have attempts before you meditate. The other said you have to meditate to get a glimpse. And in a way both are true.

Rick Archer: Yeah, that’s what I would think, yeah.

Nukunu Larsen: yeah. So so something that makes you present something that makes you stay by yourself, spend time going in. And finally also reading reading very good words, Sutras of people who try to express it and share share with people meet people I’ve been so lucky that I’ve been allowed to talk about

Rick Archer: Denmark is free country. Yeah, no, in my case, I would say that I had had glimpses before I started meditating, you know, through drugs and whatnot had had glimpses, but then I, but then when I started meditating, then there was a systematic way of having the was glimpses on a daily basis, you know, and, and that that was much more productive than just sort of random or chemically induced glimpses. Yeah. Yeah. There’s an interesting quote, I read from one of your books, he said, awakening does not happen because of effort. But it does not happen without it. And I found a quote from Ramana Maharshi. That’s very similar. He said, effort is necessary up to the state of realization, even then the self should spontaneously become evident. Otherwise, happiness will not be complete. Up to that state of spontaneity, there must be effort of some form or another. There’s a state beyond our efforts or effortlessness, until it is realized effort is necessary. How after tasting such bliss, even once one will repeatedly tried to regain it, having once experienced the bliss of peace, no one wants to be out of it or to engage in any other activity.

Nukunu Larsen: He was fantastic.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Yeah, so that is, the reason we’re on this point, I think is that some people kind of dismiss the notion of making efforts of any sort of doing meditation or anything else, they say, Well, you are already that, you know, so what is there to do? And I think you would somewhat disagree with that.

Nukunu Larsen: Yeah. It’s true in a way, and it’s also not true.

Rick Archer: It’s paradoxical.

Nukunu Larsen: Yeah, it’s a paradox. You cannot achieve it by doing anything. But all these doing, I love what my Rati the satchidananda used to say that all the work you were kind of doing on yourself is creating a wound. So when it comes, you can hold it. And I actually saw it with poverty, because poverty, have you ever met him?

Rick Archer: No, not personally, I’ve interviewed a lot of people who are with him, but I didn’t meet him.

Nukunu Larsen: No poverty, about whatever I want to say,

Rick Archer: creating a womb so that when it comes to hold it,

Nukunu Larsen: I saw many of us we came to Papaji, and I saw many people have claims just being close to him. And I also saw and reading letters afterwards, they lost it and, and I could see how little how few people were able to hold it. And I saw that a lot of these people who were able to, to kind of hold it afterwards. It was people I’ve been working with meditation, with therapy. Otherwise, it’s just gone immediately.

Rick Archer: Yeah, here’s another quote from Nisargadatta. He said, The Self cannot experience its knowingness without the help of the body is that it is a necessary instrument. So it’s like, what you’re saying is you gotta tune this instrument so that it can play the music, so to speak, you know, so that can hold this the state and without that tuning, then how is it going to be held?

Nukunu Larsen: Or maybe Nisargadatta Maharaj? Can you share the quote again?

Rick Archer: Well, it’s a longer quote, but he was talking about the value of meditation and you don’t, and you shouldn’t give up meditation until you’re naturally in Samadhi. And it just drops off spontaneously. But then he mentioned that the Self cannot experience its knowingness. Without the help of the body, it is a necessary instrument.

Nukunu Larsen: Maybe he also means that, that you have to realize the same by facing what is not to self. What is impermanent, like? There’s nowhere where you see the impermanence, so clearly as when you just feel the body. The body is very, very intimate, very deeply. But it’s also the place where you very clearly see how that there is actually no body. There’s just an ongoing movement of impressions that we call the body. And that’s why this famous saying of from the Buddha isn’t this body of the Buddha? Because this very body is the Buddha. What does it mean? It means that if you really stop up and experience your body, you will see that your body’s off your Enlightenment. And there’s no way you see so clear the impermanence. I had a man yesterday and Satsang that had a lot of fear. I said to him, I’m never going to solve it in your head. But how is it to feel the fear in the body? Come on, relax, and how does it feel in the body? Then there is a chance to use the fear to really come home. But not by thinking about it and trying to solve it and get rid of it. But really feel it in the body. So the body is I don’t know. I don’t say we are here because it’s I don’t know. But it seems to be a very great tool.

Rick Archer: Sure, and you’re well versed in Indian tradition, and you know all about Vasanas, and Samskaras. And all that stuff, which is, you know, said to be in Western terminology. It’s like a conditioning that’s deeply rooted in our nervous system. And so if the guy if the guy is feeling fear, there must be some physiological counterpart to it. And rather than just thinking about it up here, which is not going to really touch the get down to feeling in the physiology, what, what is the basis of that fear, and then there’s some hope of actually unraveling it and producing the physiological change that will be necessary to be rid of the fear.

Nukunu Larsen: Fear, maybe we talk a little bit about it. I often talk about the three stages of fear. They said, They want something a fear, we call it something tangible, because I’m scared of dogs. We can see what it is, and we’re scared of it. But there’s a more neurotic fear that we just ended up being having fear for the fear. And often, often, this fear is a byproduct of suppression emotions. So they can be some time at work to find in. Tough to find, what kind of emotion Am I or action Am I repressing, that creates fear, because I don’t do it. I don’t feel it. It’s more neurotic fear. And then there’s also an existential fear, when we don’t know who we are. When we are longing to to know who we are, and the fear of death, the fear of life, the fear of that is existential. So I think the fear of death is because you don’t know who you are. So that I call an existential fear.

Rick Archer: The Upanishad says, all fear is born of duality.

Nukunu Larsen: Yeah.

Rick Archer: Because obviously, if there’s duality, then Whoa, there’s this separate from me, it could threaten me, you know, I’m, I don’t know what it is. I don’t know what I am.

Nukunu Larsen: But it is so important that we keep on telling people that is your natural state. It’s not something fancy or it’s very natural. And very simple. But not easy to find, because we are so diluted with Oh, last. But it’s I love the same people calling it inescapable. You cannot avoid it. You can avoid anything else. struggle with it. But this is inescapable.

Rick Archer: It’s funny, anything you say I agree with, but I also think yes, but the opposite is also true. Like if you say, it’s not easy to find true, but at the same time, what could be easier, you know, What could be easier than your own self? So again, the paradox. I got a question from somebody who wanted me to start asking it of guests more often than I have been, which is the whole Dark Night of the Soul issue. He feels like he’s going through one. And he was wondering whether it’s something that people go through more if they are slow awakened areas rather than sudden awaken errs. And so what did what did you go through? And what is your experience of working with various students with regard to this dark night of the soul thing?

Nukunu Larsen: When you talk now, I am reminded of the Sufis talks about that you come to a state in your life where you see the whole of your life is meaningless. If and if you are, I think it was Turner. What was his call this guy that created a list,

Rick Archer: Werner Earhart, yeah, he

Nukunu Larsen: said that if you don’t see that life is meaningless. You miss the point. So the deeper and deeper you go into life, you start seeing that you’re never going to fulfill here, you’re never going to find the the meaning of life here. And so the Sufi will say you get to a point in your life where you either commit suicide or you wake up. Because if we if you see how meaningless life is and that way, your mind stops, you stop you’re desiring. Other otherwise you will design into the future all the time. But if you start seeing but it is hopeless, it doesn’t lead anywhere. Then you can come into a void Very, very painful. I want to tell you an authentic story. I had an old son Yashin friend

Rick Archer: sent a fellow Osho Osho. Disciple. Yeah,

Nukunu Larsen: yeah. And he was sitting in Buddha Hall one day, and he just looked around and he felt my god my whole life has been totally meaningless. What am I? What am I right that, what, what, and he felt like killing himself. So he bought a rope and he was going to hang himself out of the window in the flat he lived in. And this is an authentic story. And then he suddenly remembered his father also committed suicide. And he started it’s like, you couldn’t do that. So he was laying in his bed for three days, looking at the ceiling, and it came in, I understand. Because the mind stopped. There is no purpose of committing suicide, somehow that door closed. And he saw he just laid there, and his mind stopped. And many, many people wake up here when the mind for some reason just stops. It can also be something so gratis drastical in your life, somebody leaves you, somebody dies, that there’s no future, you might just got in the next moment, bliss. So that’s, that’s what I call the dark night of the soul that you get to this point. And of course, when you get to that point, it’s very important you are in a setting that can say to you, it’s okay, it’s okay. Just stop.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I had a friend who got to that point, and he did commit suicide. And I really felt like if he had just burned through whatever it was, that was, you know, he would have come out good on the other side, you know? You know, maybe that’s interesting, the thought just occurred to me, but maybe this desire to kill oneself is a sort of slightly distorted form of the desire for transcendence, you know, because transcendence is an annihilation of the self we thought ourselves to be. But obviously, we don’t, we don’t achieve that by hanging ourselves. But you know, maybe that’s it, maybe it becomes it’s this, like, distorted form of that desire. And like your friend who chose not to hang himself, actually arrived at the genuine form a realization of what was what he was desiring.

Nukunu Larsen: Have you not seen the little cart with a guy I work with? I think it’s on YouTube, or on my website? He he’s an old son. Yes. And also, and he said to me, Look, who have been trying and trying to get this enlivenment I haven’t got it. Tried my whole life. And, and I haven’t got there and I’m getting older. And I said to him, I said to him, it’s too late. It will never happen, because his reality is that it is not happening, but he’s dreaming about it. He goes away from the pain. So when I said what do you have to feel if it ever happens? This is one of my standard question. What will you have to feel? Sad, it’s too late. But when you feel you’re never going to happen, you waste all your time looking for it. And he trusted me and he went into this deep space of meaninglessness and, and I asked him to relax into it, as I tell you, you know, how does it feel? How it felt in the body? What is the sense of it? What’s the smell of it? And he came through, Suddenly he stopped dancing. Even his wife trusted it, he was also there. It is. It is like that, isn’t it? Because his reality was a black black sorrow over that it was not. That’s what he felt in this moment. And this moment is your Enlightenment, not what are you dreaming about in the future?

Rick Archer: Yeah, as you know, Byron Katie and Eckhart Tolle both had similar awakenings, where they hit rock bottom and feeling suicidal and so on. And then then something snapped. And you also told the story in one of your videos of a guy who went to the Master and the Master basically said, it’s too late. You’re too old, you might as well get a new body. And he went and changed. Yeah, same story. And then he went and sat on the edge of a cliff and he’s gonna throw himself off to get a new body. But then somehow things shifted for him.

Nukunu Larsen: Yeah. Because then then he was totally here now I have another very good example. And that’s you must remember the series of Shogun movies?

Rick Archer: Oh yes right yeah I don’t think I watched them but I know what it is the AC situation

Nukunu Larsen: but and insaan this pilot from England he’s sitting there and he says to one of this samurai the samurai have said to the villagers that if they don’t teach engine son Japanese in a certain time they will all get their head off we are back in the 14th century Japan and engine san is sitting with I think he’s Dr. Prasad is his name Dr. Prasad This is Master an engine saying I cannot live with this you had either to pull it back or I kill myself and the double census I cannot take it back. And Andrew sand is going to slit his throat and some other

Rick Archer: because he wants to save save the villagers, right? Yeah,

Nukunu Larsen: okay. And so beside him, takes his hand and hold the next moment and said listen to the rain. Same thing he had died. He had already gone somehow. And it’s silenced. Get this into the right it’s such a such an incredible example of this movie Syria, the but there really there was sweet that was in the 70s 80s in Denmark with Richard Timberline played the main role.

Rick Archer: So the point we’re playing around here is sort of that if you can, if you can muddle along, you just keep muddling along, but if you if you come to a point of no return a point of no choice, you know, kind of like a do or die sort of point, then then there can be that that can be the breakthrough point for some people,

Nukunu Larsen: many, many people and then comes to cultivation, suddenly awakening, gradual cultivation. Talk about that a little bit. Yeah, you have these glimpses. And, and one thing is to know about this place, but that is the personality that talks about this place. You have it limps and it goes away, and the personality talks about it, I know. And I had it and I saw it and but another thing is to fully become that place. And from that place, talk about the personality. That’s the shift or talk about and that shift is certain years. But to get fully established as a Ramana will say, one thing is to know the self and other thing is to, to, to live as the self. That is a gradual process. And from my point of view, it goes on and on and on. It’s so deep.

Rick Archer: I think that’s important these days. The word embodiment is very popular in spiritual circles. And there are even people who kind of specialize in helping people who have had awakenings to embody them more. And you can think of examples of people who had had some kind of profound awakening, and maybe it wasn’t even a glimpse, maybe something is permanent, but it hasn’t really bled into their lives enough. And so they’re acting in really sort of despicable ways, or irresponsible or immoral, or, you know, shady business deals or, you know, hurting people in various ways. And so you really wonder and some people will say, Well, that doesn’t matter. You know, the personality is a separate issue altogether from the state of awakening. But I’ve always been of the notion that, that if it’s really lived, then it should be reflected in one’s behavior and one’s personality and, and if it isn’t being reflected, then there’s definitely some embodiment or some integration or something that needs to take place.

Nukunu Larsen: I used to say to people, that you became more responsible than ever. Like, like, you simply cannot do things that is not right. It a, you cannot. And it’s not because you have an ethic, philosophy or a moral code. It’s just so much against everything in you to do something that is not right. That’s what I feel And because it’s true, all everything is impermanent, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But this is the mind, like, and then I want to say something here about that, that it has to come so deep into the heart. I think many people just get to somehow find out of it with their head, and it has not really come deep into their heart. And we never, we never heard the old Zen master talk about their love, somehow, but even Ramana talked about his love our Nigella in one of his writings, and it’s not a dry matter it is, if it doesn’t come into a deep, deep love for this mystery, whatever we call it, God or the Buddha nature, but it must, you must come in and cry, you must come in and dissolve here. I like another word from Ramakrishna. He says, if you have not cried for God, you don’t know what this is about. And I totally agree. But God, let me call it godliness, or this quality that comes in the heart of deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper, so mysterious, so deep and so fulfilling. And you just want to merge into it. You know, some people have what they call conceptual Enlightenment and existential enlivenment. And that is a good distinction. You can know everything with your head. But if you really know, then you don’t need to convince anybody about anything.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I don’t I don’t know if you run into that much with your students. But I run into it a lot with just my, my show and people I interact with and all that. There’s definitely a certain category of people whom I would call conceptually enlightened, to use to use that phrase, who gain a good understanding from reading a lot of books. And then they think that that’s it. And very often, they become pretty, pretty obnoxious on internet chat groups. And all because they become so preachy and argumentative. And, you know, telling people where it’s at, but you just have the feeling that it hasn’t become experiential for them. It hasn’t really sunk into the heart.

Nukunu Larsen: No, that’s right. And they can be very difficult.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Because they think they’ve totally got it.

Nukunu Larsen: Yeah. And they don’t want to let go of what they think they know. They can be there. Why, from my point of view, they’re the most difficult. I I sometimes used to like to go to places you know, where, where Satsang is not so well known. And I meet some more innocent people. If you go to London, you know, these big towns, they know everything. I’m not saying that it’s for everybody. But there’s something about this that Oh, I know, I know. But you go out to a little village somewhere. And they don’t really know about this. And we’re more innocent than that. Don’t know all the great words.

Rick Archer: What is it Christ said except the be as little children, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. No. I’m glad you’re mentioning the heart, though, let’s talk about that a little bit more, because a lot of times that dimension is left out. And I do see some teachers after a period of maybe not so much emphasis on the heart growing into a much more heart oriented place, you know, like for instance, to use couple of famous examples Adi Shanti. is these days just so loving and his heart really seems to be blossoming and he’s you know, talking about this kind of thing more and more, ah, almost, who founded the diamond approach, just tremendous heart really blossoming in his heart. And I’m sure there could be many, many other examples. But there’s, there’s a kind of dryness in some teachers orientations, but there’s sort of a sweetness and a richness that’s developing among, among other teachers.

Nukunu Larsen: People come and say that to me, also put into who you are, you will become so innocent. And so heartful do they have a problem with that? People who have known me over the years, no, no, they see it as something like it. Yeah, yeah. Good. And then I also feel it myself, I actually call the place on my website. Matter of the heart. I call it that because it’s a matter of the heart. And for me, awakening happens in the heart. You He said matter of the heart.

Rick Archer: You know, for what it’s worth, since you had some TM years, this was kind of the way Margie explained it to is that initially, the self could wake up, one could be self realized, but there might not be at that stage very much heart development. But on that foundation, one appreciation really begins to grow. And then the heart really begins to blossom. And it’s a whole new phase, which is ever so much more than just, you know, realizing the self.

Nukunu Larsen: That’s the cultivation go deeper and deeper and deeper, and it is a matter of the heart.

Rick Archer: And like you say, it seems to be a lifelong process, right? There’s no end to it.

Nukunu Larsen: You know, this very old famous book of the Indians of the Ramayana. I often talk over that book, because I don’t mind is this and no, Hanuman is uniting Rama and Sita. So Hanuman is uniting what has never been separated. It’s very beautiful in this story of ROM of Ayana. I often talk about it and then use the story of your children somewhere will be like stories. And the police say something very deep about Hanuman, setting fire on the town of the demons or his fire, again, awareness and yeah,

Rick Archer: yeah, in fact, you said another one of your things that I read, let me see, get it on my iPad here. He was saying how, in traditional alchemy, fire is considered to invoke a purification and transformation of the gross elements into a refinement of the spirit. Yeah, so that’s essentially I never thought those things about Hahnemann. But that that’s really true that this great devotee united two things that had apparently been separated and, and that’s the role that the heart is supposed to play. And that you know, initially when the self is realized that there can be experienced a separation between self and non self, you know, inner nature and outer nature, and the heart doesn’t like separation, so it rises to the challenge of uniting them. So that’s really cool symbolism that I’d never thought of.

Nukunu Larsen: Yeah, back of Akita, Ramayana, they are great. And the Buddhist sutras and I talked almost so many of them over the years. 20 years now, I have been talking about this.

Rick Archer: So tell us a little bit more about what you do with your students, I listened to a lot of sessions on YouTube. And people really go through some powerful stuff, apparently, some crying and screaming and all kinds of things that go on. But apparently, you helped you create an atmosphere in which it’s very conducive for people to undergo deep changes.

Nukunu Larsen: I do many different things. I also do an hour and a Christmas, I will have 10 days meditation retreat, hit and get Elia live. And they will not be screaming and crying, we will be sitting in silence. And I will give a Dharma talk in the morning. Over a text and Satsang in the afternoon individuals sit in silence. And that is definitely also my way of working, come and sit for 10 days. Oh my god, your whole life you’re running around, could you not just take 10 days to meet yourself at least. So that I’m very much advocating and telling people to do and so also do these non to therapy trainings as an opportunity to be with people for longer time. And my basic point of the therapeutic stuff is that if there’s something that have not worked out deep in themselves, it will sabotage them. Even if they have a glimpse of clarity. If there’s something deep down that has not really been Central is impermanent, it will come and create separation. The moment you start fighting with with anything detail, it creates you with that. We have you in that and we have separation. So I start often with the healer, the very basic first chakra, parents, second chakra relating third chakra shadow sides. What’s the third 1/3 It’s very much our shadow sides. What’s that word? Plexus

Rick Archer: solar shadow shadow shadow side okay, I didn’t get her word and

Nukunu Larsen: when I then worked with her, for instance, Gestalt or voice dialogue, which I feel very Good tools,

Rick Archer: are you talking about doing this as a one on one therapy or in a group or what?

Nukunu Larsen: I do it in a group where I work with people and they work with each other and an all the time, I, during that journey we talk about going going deeper. Like if I have people coming down into customisation and it’s not feeling very good and verified, then I take a try to take the deeper relaxation to this, you know, I see often the minus as a kind of like a cyclone with a periphery and a totally unmoving center. And most likely, people are caught out here in the periphery struggling fighting. And the more and more they start calming, relaxing back into this unmoving center, that constant feeling of law, the comforting feeling of trust, of peace. And then it may happen that they become this unmoving Center, which is the source of it’s who you are. And then you will see, but I’m not separated from the periphery either. But I’m also not the periphery. So I use this picture often, you can entire, no, I’m not, I’m fine. Well, okay.

Rick Archer: Don’t worry about me. It’s morning here, more or less?

Nukunu Larsen: Oh is it?

Rick Archer: Well, it’s 12:30. It’s not late. I’m, I’m good. I’ve had a flu for a couple of weeks. That’s kind of a weird sort of thing, but I’m doing good.

Nukunu Larsen: So let’s see, some people are stocking this periphery somewhere. And they’re not really aware of what’s going on here, deep down. So then I feel I can use Gestalt voice dialogue, to become aware. Because it’s by understanding, you realize you must embody and I’m not talking about intellectual understanding, it’s like understanding yourself in the Buddhist way, so then you can suddenly fall into this unmoving silence and and that cannot be said anything about it. It’s just you can be it, but you cannot know it. You are it but you will never be able to say what it is. So I often call it the forced I mentioned.

Rick Archer: Somehow this Gestalt therapy that you do, kicks people into it, somehow a trigger triggers that that away in your next generation, relax,

Nukunu Larsen: relaxes the mind. Because it’s only a still mind, that can become so clear that it knows itself. So I use all many of these techniques and these weekends we do to make the mind still. And my basic, if I have any teaching really, I call that associated inquiry. And if you go to advisor HV, John, v, v. John V. John, not just John, but the John. It means like a soldier in the beginning, I asked people to relax through the layers wherever they are called in and see that it’s impermanent. And then they come to a new one to come to me one of the some of the deepest fear of death. No love meaninglessness. And I ask people to relax into these feelings, these imaginations, and see that they’re changing. And when people are ready for it, they come down to this space of John, where that is peace, love, contentment.

Rick Archer: Do you find that people generally have the capacity to relax into it? Like you were talking earlier about the container in the container? You know, I think he said, you’re talking about Papaji. And people would have realizations and and they wouldn’t be able to hold them and because they didn’t have really the container established or developed to be able to hold those realizations. So as your as people relaxing down, do you feel like they have the energetic ground or capacity for for relaxing in these deeper levels? Or is does that somehow get increased as they relax deeper? Does it replenish or strengthen the ground, and thus enabling them to do this?

Nukunu Larsen: There are two things in it. The first thing is that to wake up, you have to you have to see that whatever this moment is, is important. Whatever it is, that’s the same as to say this moment is your Enlightenment. If you see it for what it truly is. So then I asked him to relax in with no labeling, no concept not to just experience experience it experience. And then they will come down to layers like this. No loss, meaninglessness, and these are very deep. And most people avoid them and never go there, then ask them to relax to them, and then they come into the silent on moving center. Then I asked him somehow to turn around there, and all this that went through, take it in to this place they are now and then it becomes very strong. So, all these layers we talked about, you have to know Him and you had to dare to meet them. And that’s why I also use therapy, voice dialogue to, to meet these layers. And then you invite the whole thing in again, then, then you know, that you are the creator of this hole. And you know, that all, all is mental, all is mental, all is imagination. Not in a negative way, just mental. There’s no objectivity here. But you will see that in that place. It’s all myself, not in a personal way. But in a very deep it’s all my own heart.

Rick Archer: Do you usually find that after one of these weekends, or retreats that pretty permanent change has taken place people not only experiencing something on the retreat, but feeling like afterwards, their life is different, and in a different permanent way.

Nukunu Larsen: I see two kinds of people, some people who kind of become some kind of teachers, in whatever way I don’t. There’s nobody around me that has become famous. But there are some who teaches it. And I also see people living a very simple life and living it. It’s not everybody who becomes a guru and I. If you’re supposed to teach this stuff, you will get invited to it. You cannot like it. Like I was in Australia one year, and there was a guy sitting there and had an awakening in my Satsang. And he rushed up to me and said, How to start giving Satsang and you know?

Rick Archer: Yeah, I think I’ve heard that in Zen that you’re expected to wait 10 years after your awakening before you began teaching. Yeah, that’s right. Do you offer these retreats in English? Mostly?

Nukunu Larsen: Yeah. Always English? Very, very little Danish. Okay. Sure. Because there aren’t that many. And I’m traveling. I’m trying to not travel so much. But I try to be here more. But then I’ve been traveling many, many places. All over the world. I go quite a lot to Russia and Ukraine. These days, I feel many innocent hearts there. And openness to this.

Rick Archer: Yeah. What’s going on over there. Of course, there’s been this big controversy in Ukraine lately about, you know, Crimea, and all that. Are there a lot of spiritual people over there.

Nukunu Larsen: And I, I feel many beautiful people around me there. And I have just been there now in Ukraine for five days. And you can feel that something going on in the country. But in here, I don’t know anything about it. Really. I didn’t. And I hope that it will settle. So I can continue to go there because I really, really meet many beautiful people. You know, no regrets. I find some people who have not had an easy life. It’s not been easy. And at the same time, I feel that many of them have kept a certain innocence and openness in their hearts, especially in Ukraine. Russia, they are a little more hot. Heart is more tough. Hard. Yeah, they are more tough. Yeah. So Ukraine, I like very much this these people. It’s right. Yeah. Sweden also, I like very much gone a lot to Sweden.

Rick Archer: Essentially, how there’s sort of a different national consciousness as you move around the world, but like I’ve been to not not as many places as you probably but I spent three months in Iran and nine months in the Philippines and about eight months in India and you know, different places like that. And each one has its own personality, so to speak. But wherever you go, including places like Iran, you meet these incredible people who are just like these Beautiful spiritual, you know, highly evolved people. So we should never write off some country and think that we’re all stupid there or something like that there’s gems everywhere.

Nukunu Larsen: These days Kim’s everywhere. True.

Rick Archer: And maybe more and more. So these days, it seems like there’s kind of a epidemic going on.

Nukunu Larsen: Yeah, maybe it is. So I don’t really know.

Rick Archer: Yeah. So what should people do who have been watching this interview? And you know, they think you’re an interesting guy, and they would like to get connected with you in some way. I mean, do you do Skype sessions? Or would you don’t do Skype sessions? Okay. So they would have to come to someplace you’re going to be Yeah, they will have to come to

Nukunu Larsen: some I go to India, for instance, now. I used to go to Rishikesh a lot. And I go to go and now for two, three months, when they can come and hang out with me there. And it’s cheap.

Rick Archer: That sounds like fun.

Nukunu Larsen: Yeah, and what? A nice, nice weather. Yeah. Yeah. And so that’s possible. And they can go on my website and see where I am in the world. And find me.

Rick Archer: Is there anything else that you’d like to tell people that, you know, I always feel like I’ve just scratched the surface. When I do one of these interviews, I’ve kind of given people a snapshot of the person. But I always realize there’s so much more and so many things we could we could have discussed and on. So I always feel like I, I really don’t want to leave out anything that’s really important for people to hear or for, you know, for you to say if it’s something you’re going to think of tomorrow, and wish you had said. So this is anything like that,

Nukunu Larsen: I want to say to people that if they start feeling that divine presence in their heart, that don’t pull away, don’t don’t, because they’re brought up with Christianity, do whatever they’re brought up with that they go away from it. In Scandinavia, we have a strange situation, because many of us are very much against old Christianity. And still the culture is very saturated by Christianity. And, and so here in Scandinavia, when people hear the word God, it can be very antagonistic to it to this word, or the Christian God and all this, but you will, on your journey, when you go deeper and deeper, you will start finding fine mystery in your heart. Something very beautiful and very, very Yeah, you can give it whatever name you want. But you will find it when you go deep. And don’t don’t fall away from it, come into it and unite with it and be one with it. And like I told you about the surrender process, I just want to merge with you, it comes from everyone. This overwhelming the space. When you come closer to who you are, you just cry and you feel love and come in and unite totally with that law. And you will and then you will maybe be able to say something about it. But it has nothing to do really with that you may go and just be quiet

Rick Archer: that’s beautiful. I hope I don’t dilute it by saying something now but this whole thing of God you know a lot of times and spiritual teachers and people don’t want to talk much about God or they don’t feel it’s relevant or they feel it’s just going to be misunderstood if they use that word or not, it’s not part of their experience or something. But I really feel like it’s I think you’re giving a nice voice to it that there’s this whole dimension of the Divine which is so sumptuous and rich and profound and mysterious that you know when you in light of that you know some some some ways that spirituality is presented seem very plain and bland and watered down or something I don’t know there’s you know there’s a whole world of possibilities yet to be discovered when when one begins as you put it kind of settle into the heart and begin to appreciate the the divinity of the divine the infinite intelligence that that is governing things.

Nukunu Larsen: The problem is that all these words are tossed by so many dirty fingers. Yeah Abiquiu history and but what should we call it

Rick Archer: so many wars fought over it? Never.

Nukunu Larsen: Yeah. What should we call Do it. But everybody will feel it. Yeah, something so beautiful, so unbelievable. Here.

Rick Archer: I think if we’re just going to you if we’re going to use these words like God, we just have to remind everybody that don’t think about what you were taught in Sunday School 40 years ago. That’s not what we’re talking about.

Nukunu Larsen: That’s what I say. I always say, Forget him. Call it a godliness. Yeah, maybe. But that’s again, relativity, what to do with words.

Rick Archer: But you know, I mean, we all these great teachers that people respect and quote all the time, you know, like Ramana, Maharshi, and Nisargadatta, and Papaji. And all these people, when you read their writings and listen to their talks, they were very much in tune with what we’re talking about right now. And, you know, very devotional people, you know, real profound hearts. And also, it’s definitely part of the package. It’s part of the total,

Nukunu Larsen: sitting and watching a sunset. And it’s so beautiful that you totally forget yourself, and suddenly become such a gratefulness. And it’s such an incredible feeling of in you. That’s what we talk about. Yeah. Call it whatever you like.

Rick Archer: Yeah, one way of putting it as if you really start to appreciate the art. The want to meet the artist, you know? Yeah, yeah. Who created this thing? That Yeah. Good. Well, were you about to say something?

Nukunu Larsen: No. Okay. I will say something to you. It’s been very beautiful to see that we are understanding each other very deeply. Because we are both sitting with our words, but I feel we I can. I can I know. You know, I know.

Rick Archer: Yeah. And I feel that too. And it’s a joy to talk to somebody who has who is so hard oriented, you know, who is not just dry intellectual, but it’s really coming coming from a deep level of feeling. Good. All right. Well, I guess I’ll conclude I, I hope that people have gotten, I think people will have gotten a nice taste of who you are and how you teach. And, and

Nukunu Larsen: what is happening now is this going out now to people?

Rick Archer: Well, it’s not going live right this minute. But in, in a couple of days, I’ll have it out on YouTube. You know, probably by easily by tomorrow, actually. And then there’ll be a page on, where I post this. And along with that, I’ll post your bio and a link to your website and the link to your books if they’re on Amazon or wherever you can get them. And you know, just all the essential information that people would need in order to get in touch with you or find out what your schedule is, and all that stuff. So that’s what I’ll do. And also, an email will go out to about 6000 Something people who really Yeah, who subscribe to be notified every time I put up a new interview. So that’ll go out. And if somebody’s listening, and they’re not on that email list, just go to, there’s a place which says, join our mailing list or something, you can sign up to be notified.

Nukunu Larsen: I want to say something, maybe while your your, your net is popular, because it’s very rarely that somebody who knows, like, you know, is interviewing another one. And people will feel it. Because usually, I’m interviewed by people who don’t really know. You know, this, they you understand. Yeah, but everybody also seeing you on the

Rick Archer: Yeah, and you know what I mean, I taught for 25 years as a TM teacher, and I got to a point where I was tired of talking about things that I wasn’t fully experiencing. And so I didn’t teach at all for a long time. And then I just got the desire to do this interview show. And I kind of feel like it’s the right role for me at this time. I wouldn’t want to, I wouldn’t even feel qualified to go out and be a Satsang teacher or something like that. At this point. It just wouldn’t be my dharma, you know, and but I feel like it’s right for me to be doing what I’m doing. I’m good at asking questions. I really like I can kind of tune in to where people are and you know, kind of get a sense of a field for them and have a nice conversation with them and and it’s really kind of enjoyable to me to bring people like yourself to a wider public attention. And it’s also very enjoyable to get the feedback I get from people who say wow, you know, I I’ve been so inspired or I met my teacher through this or I was gonna kill myself and then I you know, listen to your show. All kinds of feedback like that. So it’s really gratifying to to be able to make That kind of contribution.

Nukunu Larsen: Thank you very much.

Rick Archer: Oh, you’re welcome. Couple more quick wrap up points. So that’s the place to go. You’ll see all the 260 Something interviews, I’ve done all index there, you’ll see a donate button which I rely upon people clicking from time to time, you’ll see a place to subscribe to the audio podcast. If you don’t feel like sitting watching videos, you can just listen on iTunes to the audio podcast. And there’s a discussion group a bunch of other things. So just go there. Bat gap, explore the different menu options and you’ll you’ll find out what’s going on. So thanks a lot. nukunonu Next week, I’ll be interviewing someone named Mary O’Malley and we’ll find all about her. I’m not even sure I haven’t checked into her that much yet. Irene picked her out and I’m sure she’ll be good. All right, thank you very much.

Nukunu Larsen: Thank you.

Rick Archer: Talk to you later.