Nick Gancitano Transcript

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Nick Gancitano Interview

Rick Archer: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer. And my guest this week is Nick gonja Tano. And before I get started with Nick, I just want to make a couple of quick practical announcements that haven’t had a chance to make. One is that if you’re watching this on YouTube, we’re recording this and high definition 720 P, and you can switch to 720 P and then expand it to the full screen of your monitor. So it’s more like watching it on TV, you don’t have to watch it in a little window. That’s why we’re doing it in high definition. Second thing is that my big accomplishment this week was I managed to install a automated mailing list system on on So if you’d like to receive an email, every time we post a new interview, you can sign up there, and just your name and email address. And I’ll be able to notify you. And the third thing I just want to say is that once in a while I get a complaint from somebody that I talked to much during these interviews. And I want to confess that I’m guilty of that. And I’m working on it. It’s like Larry King said, If I’m talking I’m not learning anything, so I try to keep my mouth shut. But keep in mind, this is a long form. Show it’s not we’re not we don’t have a time constraint, we sometimes go two hours and so sometimes turns into a bit of a discussion rather than just short questions followed by long answers. And guests sometimes say they appreciate that, because it gives them a chance to rest their voice for a second. So having said all that, welcome, Nick, thank you for taking the opportunity to do this.

Nick Gancitano: Hi, Rick. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Now, when I first you know, I was contacted by your lovely wife, Penelope. I looked on YouTube and looked up your name. And what a person finds if they do that is a bunch of videos by a guy giving spiritual talks and some videos of a football player kicking 45 Your yard field goals for Penn State. And with a little bit of investigation you discover this is the same guy. So that’s a pretty cool juxtaposition that you don’t ordinarily come across with it we like injured in a football play and you’re a walk in now or how did this

Nick Gancitano: Oh, well. Actually, you know I did I played with them and I injured my knee back you know about a year or so out of the out of the collegiate League after and being with Detroit. I want with Detroit Lions for a little while I injured my knee while I was there. And so I never really followed through and the rehabilitating and you know, trying to make another go at the the pros. I just went into business and did that for for about four years or so. So yeah, I never really well, but I coached I ended up coaching for about 25 years. Wow.

Rick Archer: Well, as they say, you know NFL stands for not for long. Yeah. You make your money until your body gets destroyed.

Nick Gancitano: It’s true. Everybody seems to take a beating.

Rick Archer: Yeah. My cat just joined us. Very. You don’t see this on Oprah Winfrey. So how did you segue from football player to spiritual teacher or did somehow those two things overlap?

Nick Gancitano: Well, I actually when I was in college, one of the things that they suggest that I do is take a sports psychology class. And so I took a sports psychology class and I began to practice relaxation, Jacobson’s relaxation and began to drop into very deep states of meditation without really knowing why or how I’d always had some exposure to I guess you would say Eastern spirituality. I had the Autobiography of a Yogi was on my bookshelf as a child. I didn’t even know what it really was. But I had had a vision of a sage Ramana Maharshi at a very young age. Wow. And so not really being able to piece any of this together until much later. Once I took that class just I just began I fell in love with with meditation, and I got away from it after college for some time went into business and that kind of thing, but I but I didn’t come back to it until after I had gone to teach Coaching, being in the business world for a while, I guess had to go through that and an experience whatever that was and become a speaker and that kind of thing, a public speaker and motivational speaker, and then just got went through a divorce and came out of that, where I found meditation again, and it just seemed to take water. And so then, eventually students just began to come to me after I had a Satori, that that was very profound, some time ago, and then students just started to come to me and I, and that’s how it just kind of happened spontaneously like that I didn’t really know I had quit teaching school after 10 years, and just got a little disenchanted with the educational direction. And, and so I didn’t really know what I was going to do. And then that Satori occurred, that shift I, I just started wandering and traveling and studying different teachers and that kind of thing. And, and that was it. And then they just, it just seemed to reverse where I ended up being the teacher somehow through people asking questions and stuff.

Rick Archer: Well, there’s a lot to unpack in what you just said. First of all, how did you end up with a with a copy of autobiography of yoga on your bookshelf, when you were a kid, were your parents into this kind of thing.

Nick Gancitano: My father was very open minded. He had a friend who was exposed to a teacher named Kirpal Singh, probably way back and he gave my my father a book called The impersonal life, if you’ve ever read that by Joseph Benner and also the Autobiography of a Yogi, and so they were just sitting there, you know, apparent I don’t know whether or not my father ever read them at the time, but they they seem to be there, and I have recollection of them, but never really just pictures of Paramahansa Yogananda. You know,

Rick Archer: so you didn’t read it either. It was just sitting there on your shelf? Yes. Just sitting there. I see. And then, how old were you when you have this vision of Ramana? Maharshi?

Nick Gancitano: Oh, gosh, I’d probably about 11. Ah,

Rick Archer: so you’re just kind of like, how did that happen? You were just out playing baseball or something. And all sudden, this guy popped in?

Nick Gancitano: Actually, no, I am. I just, it’s very vague. The memory was very vague. It was just this very vivid picture I was I don’t even remember to be honest with you where I was, I just remember that when I first saw him as an adult. I remembered that I had seen it as a child, as a child as a flash, it was more like a almost like it was a memory. Hmm, more than anything. And then of course, later on, I came to realize after when I was in a, in a state of I guess you would say relaxation, that I came face to face with him as a as an adult with another person with me where I actually met him and spoke with him. Wow. Or he spoke to me, I guess you could say I didn’t really speak but he didn’t say anything on words. It was just it was a silent transmission transmission to me, where he was telling me to share this teaching. Hmm. And

Rick Archer: there’s a, he seems to get around. I mean, there, there’s another guy interviewed named Burt Harding. And he was walking down the street in Toronto one day, and this man’s face flashed in his mind’s eye. And then sometime later, could have been a year or two, he was in a bookstore. And he all sudden saw Ramana Maharshi his face on a book. And he said, That’s the guy I saw, you know, and he ended up, you know, starting to read avidly, and so on one thing led to the next but, so with you, let’s get things in the right order, just for the chronology sake for it, because the story is interesting. So you had this, you know, this flash of vision as a kid, but you didn’t remember until you were much older. You also alluded to, you know, learning the Jacobsen relaxation technique and having very deep experiences. And you also referred to a Satori experience. So I want to I want to kind of go into all those, but which order should we go into them in?

Nick Gancitano: Okay, well, I guess we could start with them. We’ve already discussed when I had the glimpse in childhood, I really wasn’t even aware of it, but Jacobson’s relaxation occurred my sophomore year in college, okay. And that may be a good place to pick up because that was really the only type of relaxation I had ever really been acquainted with. Because I was very athletic.

Rick Archer: Was that the thing where you relax each part of your body sequentially, you know, going through the whole body?

Nick Gancitano: Yes, you test it and then you relax, okay? And certain cities began to develop as a result of that which we’re

Rick Archer: kicking 45 year old feel good 45 yard field goals. So that’s your secret. Okay. You cheated.

Nick Gancitano: Yeah, it was, it was really peculiar things that were, you know, that shocked me, quite frankly, like what? Well, I’m like, not feeling like my body was no longer there. Like it like, almost like seeming like it was not physical, not feeling my body in contact with the, with the bed that I was actually practicing meditation on like it had moved, would you call that a city, you could call you could call it was like a form of levitating, you could call it but it wasn’t something that it was trying to do. Also, there was there was also what seemed to be visions of things that were very vivid. There were very unlike a dream and certain abilities to have and, and do things at will, like wow, you know, just deciding that I would want to go somewhere, take a vacation, and then someone within within seconds, would ask me if I would like to go haha, you know, little teeny things like and then later on those cities began to develop, which of course after that, at that point, I had already been instructed by Ramana Maharshi. Not to buy into that not to go down that direction, because they’re a distraction, which I can see how I was pulled off of that path of developing those yogic cities because they are a distraction. But later on, there were certain things like looking at a tree and wishing that it was windier, when it was completely still and, and then seeing of course, imagining that the tree would be bending because of the wind. And within seconds, a tropical storm, well, out of nowhere came and, you know, all of a sudden, there were, you know, alerts and that kind of thing. And so that just seeing the connection and looking at the ocean and seeing it stop these kinds of things that were you could just see that it was just the mind, the whole thing was just a construct of the mind. And that depending on my intention for that thought stream, well, that would be the manifest reality or outcome of that. And so that that was not the reality was my understanding. So I, I said rather than giving attention to the illusion of form, give my attention to that, which is aware of the form.

Rick Archer: Hmm, I wonder if you were actually causing the tropical storm? Or if you were anticipating it, or if there was sort of a larger intelligence that was operating both the tropical storm and the thoughts in your head, and that, and so that larger intelligence just sort of manifested in both things, and there was a, there was a congruence?

Nick Gancitano: That would be that would be a very accurate way of demonstrating what actually occurred, I would say as well, because at a later point, that was my understanding, there really is nothing other than the self, right? And so there really is no such thing as an individual doing anything. And yet, at that point in time, there was the sense that I was doing it because there was still a sense of of I, yeah, there was no sense of Doer there. And so that was that was a potential distraction. It appeared at the time really, there’s no no potential for going off track if that’s not the destiny of the body, but that was, that’s where it seemed to be leading.

Rick Archer: Yeah, so to seems like as long as we perceive ourselves as having freewill, we need to exercise it intelligently and ethically and wisely and so on. So, okay, so you mentioned a Satori experience. You also mentioned receiving instruction from Ramana Maharshi. Do you mean like actual sort of one to one instruction on some level? Or do you mean just from reading, reading his books and seeing what he had to say? Both? Okay, let’s talk let’s talk about both those things that and the Satori experience.

Nick Gancitano: Okay. The Satori came, after I had quit teaching, gotten to the point where I could no longer really stay in, in this in a classroom, I couldn’t remain there. And I quit and sold my, my home and went and lived in an apartment on the beach and was reading Osho every day for many, many hours and meditating about 10 hours a day. Just just really just not really being aware of time to a large extent. And then one day I walked into the Borders Bookstore, and I saw the spiritual teachings of Ramana Maharshi. And I was like, Oh my God, that’s the guy. That’s the guy from then when I was young, and that’s when I had the recollection. So I got the book, and took it back and threw it on my bed. And I glanced over several hours later, and I saw a face and I began to cry. profusely and I didn’t really understand why that was occurring, I’m by was very profound, and I just dropped in a very deep state of stillness and then I began to read it in several days later, I had an excruciating headache is somewhere, you know, in the center of my head. And I went for a walk on the beach, or the boardwalk really near where the beach is in Hollywood beach. And as I was walking, I took a deep breath, and I relaxed and upon that relaxation, in that, that instant, there was what appeared to be more like an explosion, like, like a everything, right, just completely felt like I disappeared, I became the entire, non phenomenal, you know, effulgence throughout existence, and there was no sense of me. But there was a very profound, deep state of presence, you know, awareness of now. And everything was very vivid and very clear and luminous. And so that was, that was a Satori. Now that lasted that that sense of bliss, that that came through that lasted for about nine months. And so, there was, of course, still a remnant of i there, because there was a feeling that I was in bliss, that I was, you know, that I had awakened that I had realized and this kind of thing. And so, there was a certain super ego arrogance that began to develop at that state. And this is very consistent with what happens with a lot of Yogi’s who work in the Kundalini system, individualized ego they call it, yes, yes. And so, that was that occurred. And then of course, I woke up one day with the thought of committing suicide, that was the polarity of it, why there was no rhyme or reason there was just all types of thoughts that the you know, the spiritual path, this spiritual path was evil and, you know, all types of past Catholic conditioning to the effect of anything other than following the path of Jesus was the devil in disguise. So all these like very profound sub, you know, conscious things began to purge in a very short period of time and

Rick Archer: even though you hadn’t been thinking much about Jesus or anything for a long time, but but but all sudden, this stuff started to flood I think,

Nick Gancitano: nothing out. Now. There was a period of time before that. Before I quit teaching where I would watch this movie called Jesus of Nazareth.

Rick Archer: Oh, Franco Zeffirelli? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I love that. That’s beautiful.

Nick Gancitano: Yeah, it was a beautiful depiction of Yes. And I watched it every day for about six months. Wow. So you know, and I’m just certain clips of him, though, that I had knew the exact measurements of the tapes where I could go and just contemplate and just being in the presence of that was so profound and affective that brought me into a state where I guess you could say it was my sad song at the time. And, and then I, I got away from that. And so then the mind came in and just started creating all kinds of dualities. And there was a sense of confusion and state of again, then the fear came in that, that I was, I had become the evil one and this kind of stuff, this is all just in, you know, in conditioned into my my thought pattern at a very young age that now was beginning to purge, but because there was no thought for so long, when a thought did occur, it became a very profound sense of my reality. And so I identified with that,

Rick Archer: had you gone to Catholic school as a child?

Nick Gancitano: No, okay, my one of my parents was a Catholic, the other a Lutheran, and so they decided to just leave me alone,

Rick Archer: but you still had still had plenty of guilt packed in there.

Nick Gancitano: Yeah, we’re still a little bit of that. It’s more more the fear of what would happen if you went down the wrong path, right? If you’re of hell and, and that kind of thing. But the fear that and so it was really strange, it was more secondary, I think, information that had come in more so than the actual conditioning from my parents, because my father, my parents never really talked about it. So there really wasn’t much there. But that was, that was a very intense moment. And so then I, from that point on, I said, you know, I need to get some instruction, I need to, there’s more going on here than I, and I’m aware of, and so I went and stayed and went with different teachers and traveled around and, and then of course, there, you know, a yogi that I knew who was very conscious, who I, who I went and spoke with and that type of thing. And so there was, there were just some very, that was a very integral, a pivotal moment where I no longer felt that the I was enlightened. There was a recognition that was very intense, and a lot of fears. And that’s when I guess you could say the real sadhana began, that was the that was when everything began to get turned up all the deep rooted conditioning and, and that type of stuff. And so that took several years and that began to stabilize. So at that point, the real inquiry had I had had come into focus. And yeah, that’s

Rick Archer: interesting. I mean, so you went, you had this big profound Satori thing. And then you went through nine months of bliss. And, you know, and then this stuff started picking. I mean, at that point, many people would say, I’m done. I’m awakened. Yeah, this is it. But but in a way, you’re just you’re saying, I’m just getting started here. So you went and saw all these teachers, and I presume you’re suggesting that your interaction with these teachers helped to work out all this doubt and confusion that had percolated up. And, and then and then you say, you really started to solder and you really started self inquiry is that a fair synopsis of everything you just said,

Nick Gancitano: you’re pretty close i My, my understanding after being with these teachers is that my belief then was that these teachers, were going to somehow be able to transmit the truth to me. And so I recognize that in the ego that was there seeking enlightenment, there was a recognition that anytime you seek to another teacher, in a sense, on a very subtle level, you’re seeking to become a teacher. In other words, you would only seek to get the information from someone. In other words, you’d only seek to follow someone else if you wanted to be followed. See, that’s a very, it’s a reflection of my own inner thought I would only seek someone else, you know, be a seeker if I wanted to be sought. And so I began to question the reason for my trusting what they were saying over my own inner guidance, my own inner directional voice. And I began to doubt and so then I began to reject those teachers what they were saying. And I began to break away from the need for other. And at that point, that I became very aware of the self, the formless awareness that was aware of it all. And that inner consciousness, that sublime presence, then let me know that there was really no need for me to be following that. And so however, one of the things that happened along the way, was the insight the connection with Ramana Maharshi, where he then told me to go teach to share it, and he passed me a seed and the conveyance telepathically, if you want to call it that was, was that to pass the seat of truth on and then I passed it to the person next to me, and he smiled. And he hugged me or put his arms around me. And that was, that was that was the conclusion of that. And from since then, there have been several communications, you know,

Rick Archer: okay. Yeah, I definitely want to get into those. But I mean, so, but just to wrap up this point about following teachers, so I mean, you’re a teacher now, and people are hanging around you listening to what you have to say, how is that any different from what you were doing with those other teachers?

Nick Gancitano: Right? Because well, there was a sense that there was my trying to seek them. In other words, to to be to be, you could call yourself a teacher, I guess, in the position that I’m in. But I don’t really consider myself if you will, the teacher as much as just the teaching is coming through this body. There’s no sense there’s no sense that I am doing the teaching.

Rick Archer: Might that not have been the perspective of some of the teachers you were visiting? Most definitely. But it was so but your orientation to them was flawed is what you’re saying? Correct? There was this? There’s this needy sort of eyebrow kind of thing going on? Yes. Yeah.

Nick Gancitano: And, and there were also very distinct qualities that I had. And I believe everyone who who goes looking for a guru or a teacher is that they believe they know what the Guru is going to be that they have a projection that the Guru is going to look like this, they’re going to act like this, they’re going to have these certain virtues and personality traits, when in fact, the guru turns out to be the opposite of everything you thought it was. And it ends up destroying all of those concepts that you have. And that really, more is kind of like a, an ambush, if you will, a divine ambush that surprises you and catches you completely off guard by showing up as let’s just say a very meek girlfriend, or a mother or father who’s very overbearing or intolerable. And they force you to get in touch them with your sense of resistance to those qualities that they’re, you know, exhibiting and so rather than looking forward in the way of someone who is speaking to you in discourse, or pontification, this became very evident to me that it was more important that it came in a very natural, spontaneous way as it pertained to me because I was a school teacher, and therefore I was looking for someone to teach you to me in the way that I was taught, you know, knowledge in a very traditional academic setting, and that that’s not the way that it was going to be communicated, it was going to be communicated very directly through profound experience and insight, you know, as it pertains to this particular organism.

Rick Archer: So would you discourage people in general from visiting teachers? Or would you say more like, you know, be prepared to have your preconceptions shattered? And, and, you know, be open to, you know, I mean, approach a teacher in a in a mature way. And don’t, don’t be sort of, you know, you have to understand the relationship properly. It’s not that there shouldn’t be such relationships, but that they should be entered into with a proper sort of maturity or understanding or something. Would you agree with that?

Nick Gancitano: Yes, I would say whatever is is exactly what’s supposed to happen. Mm hmm. And so, also be wary of anyone who calls themself a master, or who allows themselves to be called Master in any way. To me, those are, those are signs of the super ego phase that I was discussing. One who knows that there is only one master, and that’s the aim. That’s the formless awareness, there is no such thing as a separate individual master. Anyone who believes that does not understand the true notion of what self realization is, they’re still, they’re still in that stage of trying to maybe develop a following or trying to accumulate things. And and there’s this is nothing wrong with this is just to say that I am a master, or to allow someone to say that there is only one master, there can only be one master. And that is the infinite intelligence that runs it all. And it has nothing to do with the form. It has to do with the formless dimension that animates at all. And so this is just there’s just a very slight tweaking that needs to occur there. Nonetheless, it doesn’t mean that there’s anything wrong with them, it doesn’t mean that they’re intentionally trying to deceive, it just means that there is a touch of tweak, just just just who is it that thinks they’re the master?

Rick Archer: Well, it wasn’t, it wasn’t Christ addressed as master and perhaps Ramana Maharshi, as well, doesn’t doesn’t mean that they had egoic tendencies, it just means that they were masters, you know, by which, by definition means that they were residing in that universals, you know, self as that. But people see them as you know, I mean, people can only perceive from their level of percept consciousness, you know, and you look at someone like Christ, and you think, Whoa, he’s great, but you’re not seeing, you’re not seeing through his eyes, you’re not seeing him as he sees himself, you know, which is that Universal Consciousness, right. So I’m just kind of playing devil’s advocate here and suggesting that what you’re saying is not necessarily universally true, there may be instances in which someone is addressed as a master, and yet they aren’t gripped by the taint of ego.

Nick Gancitano: This really is going to be very specific as to how you’re going to respond to that. I bring this up only that, if someone does find themselves being called that to question and really look and see, on a very subtle level, whether or not that is the case. And of course, whether or not Jesus actually allowed it or not, based on the scriptures that have been recorded, which are, at best, you know, very sparse and very selected and picked apart. And, and so that to really say how he would have responded to that statement, it’s very speculative. It is and and I don’t, having had people actually try to establish that kind of a devotee master relationship. That is something that immediately felt like that’s not it. Yeah, that’s not the way to go with this with this person, you know, to establish with them, let us be clear, you can call me whatever you like.

Rick Archer: I’m not talking about in your particular case, you know, I’m, and also I, your point is well taken, I mean, there are, are egregious examples of people whose egos have just gone berserk when they, you know, start receiving the kind of adulation that you’re talking about here. But I’m just saying that in some cases, there, there may very well have been an AR teachers who are sufficiently ripe or mature or enlightened or whatever word you want to use that it’s not going to be a problem for them. I mean, Shankara himself who’s you know, the granddaddy of non dualism said, The said that the intellect imagines duality for the sake of devotion. So he wasn’t averse to the notion of sort of creating a sort of an imaginary separation for the sake of you know, the the enrichment that devotional practices bring.

Nick Gancitano: Well, this is why I say, as long as when one allows themselves to be addressed as the master or master, that they are aware that the master is nothing to do with the sense of individuality, it has to do with the presence that is the substratum of it, and that that does not occur. Now, this is why I say it has to be based on if there is a sense of individuality, that is being addressed during any kind of devotee, Guru type of relationship, that if they were to just turn inward and see, just look and check to see whether or not that’s the case, it’s more common. I know amongst a lot of Zen, because the term Master is used very frequently. It’s also used, it was used with Osho. And, you know, he encouraged the master devotee relationship. But But Osho was more of a Deconstructor. He was more of a de conditioner than he was an actual leading someone into the actual heart and large scale. Marginally Yes, with very select students or people that he was with. But for the most part, he laughed at everything. And so again, you you know, yes. Are there rare instances where they are, but and again, then, yes, but but in general, if you see the term master being used, I would just say, you know, question, who is it that’s seeing the master? And who is it that’s wanting the Masters guidance and direction? It’s, it’s none other than, you know,

Rick Archer: yeah, no, I think it’s a really good cautionary note. Because there have been, you know, it’s, it’s the exception rather than the rule that you find somebody who, you know, is in a teaching position, who is able to, you know, really stay completely established in in the, you know, in the largest self, and not let it go to his head to some extent. And in Christ case, I mean, he said, I and My Father are one. So if he if he was addressing someone, presuming he said that someone was addressing him as master, presumably, he recognized where that respect was actually being directed to, you know, not to, not to him, the man, but to the Father to the to the Universal Spirit, or whatever terminology we want to use, which actually has interesting implications for those those other sayings that are bandied about so often that no man cometh under the under the Father, but by me, I am the Way the Truth and the Life. I mean, you know, what is he talking about? They’re talking about this guy walking around in sandals in the Middle East, you know, 2000 years ago? Or is he talking about a much larger, more eternal universal sense of I? Yeah.

Nick Gancitano: Yes. And, and I, there were time, there’s, I mean, there were times when, you know, students asked me, you know, they say, so who are you? And I just say, Well, I am, and, and so the name, I am stuck even with me for a while. And so I am, you know, which I, this body came to be known by by those who were not understanding what was meant by that, then you can see where the confusion can be fostered and it can grow. And if it’s not nipped immediately, then it can grow out of control. And this is, if there is going to be a abidance in that formless state of awareness. Nothing can really be assigned to that formless awareness, not even the word master, to even respond to that. And so that’s why I say, If anyone does call someone a master, you know, then then it’s, it’s just as easy to say, you recognize that you are, right, really you and to really bring that back to them. And because really, that’s the responsibility is to just not to take credit or not to even feed off of that. But to turn back and say, your responsibility at that point is to just remind everyone to turn back to themselves. Yeah, and to not, and to not get caught up even in that devotee, attachment that can develop and become very strong. And at some points that may be helpful, depending on how caught up in let’s just say, a different type of conditioning. It is in order to break one type of conditioning, the other extreme of conditioning, maybe necessary, sort of like the thorn that’s used to remove the thorn and throw the both out, but to not then hold on to the new Thorn, which is I’m the master and you know, devotee and so you know, go get my coffee. Yeah, right. Yeah,

Nick Gancitano: that’s all that’s Yeah, I

Rick Archer: think it’s a good point. And, and you know, and what you just alluded to is that one size does not necessarily fit all their stages of development, their stages of teachings appropriate to the people who Whoever they are, I mean that, you know, Vedanta which is, of course, what we’re talking about in terms of non dualism means the end of the Vedas on domaines end. And the Gita says, as it put it, to the Enlightened sage, all the Vedas are of no more use than as a small well in a place flooded with water on every side, you know, so at that stage, you know, all this all these different teachings and strata of knowledge and, and all this business, it has been gone beyond. But you know, but that’s not to say that a great sage and the vedantic tradition such as ramen or or Shanker, somebody would throw the whole thing, all the rest of it out. I mean, Vedanta is one of six systems of Indian philosophy, and the others are considered to have their their function at particular stages of development. But they are, you know, also recognized as not being the ultimate.

Nick Gancitano: Yeah, I like to just keep it very simple and use the first name, you know, this way, there’s no confusion, you know, there’s no, there’s no, you know, possibility of that. And that’s why I say, you know, someone talks to me, no matter how many years they come and sit in satsang, or meditate, whether or not there’s even a verbal dialogue that even needs to take place. That’s really completely up to them. And so this point is just hey, you can call me, Nick. Yeah, to make it simple. You can call me Nick. But there’s no sir neck or master neck or green, Trina, you know, I mean, or Nicki or whatever it is. Put onto your name, this is all this is all just a way of creating a lot of fluff around something that, you know, is really not necessary. And it allows for the confusion to breed. Yeah, and if you just nip that right in the bud, right off the bat, and just say, Okay, hi, game, Jim. My name is Nick. Great, okay, hey, I like what you’re saying, let’s, you know, interact, and or let’s, you know, if you want to meditate together, that’s great. If they want to sit, but there’s no, in other words, you’re not feeding it. And so as long as you you know, make sure that you’re not feeding it, then you’re good.

Rick Archer: Yeah, it’s good. You’re not trying to build up a lot of hoopla around yourself, you just stick into the core message, which is what it’s all about anyway, you know? Yeah. Good. So you mentioned that you had, you’ve had several kind of interactions on a subtle level, with Ramana Maharshi, that there were some transmissions or teachings or something that took place, can we talk about those? Sure.

Nick Gancitano: Not really much to say, in the fact that they were more look at a smile.

Rick Archer: It’s touch, like in meditation or something he would come to,

Nick Gancitano: either that or spontaneously. Meditation is kind of a difficult word to really describe, because at some point, you don’t know whether you’re meditating or not, you just are. So I’m not really sure at what point meditation stopped, you know, and it just became the natural realization of what always is, so I’m not really sure whether there was meditating at that time, or if there was just being and then the the image occurred. And it was either at some kind of a conveyance. It wasn’t him speaking to me and tamo he wasn’t speaking, you know, he wasn’t, none of that was occurring, it was just very, I understood in his actions. And this was what I felt to be very powerful because it didn’t require it. If it had been word, some one might be suspect, as to whether or not this image coming to my mind was like the one that occurred earlier, when I became very, you know, frightened. And so at this point, there was none of that this was this communication occurred in a way that could was unmistakable. It was It wasn’t something and I felt it throughout my entire being every you know, and so there was no real

Rick Archer: it was just out of the blue, you weren’t looking for it or anything, just know. Yeah. And so what was the communication or what what did you get out of it?

Nick Gancitano: Well, for one thing to get rid of his you know, stop reading, stop reading, you know, and of course, not that people shouldn’t read, but that there was no longer any need to read for you. Yes. Right. So that was you know, coming to also to get rid of the pictures of him that I had all around you know, and that type of thing and not that that was wrong either because there’s a certain presence vibration that’s transmitted even in that, you know, in that state of for someone who’s not able to hold their attention on the eye, meditating on a form a gross form until the the mind is ripen to be sensitive to the more subtle dimension. Then of course that’s necessary but then a course that was communicated. So there was almost a, the way he demonstrated it was like he was surprised that, that I would still have his pictures up all over the place. And in any it, it was almost embarrassing, but it got the point across. And I you know, and so I took those down and then just is you know, as soon as the once the outer goo is replaced by recognizing the inner guru, there’s no need for the outer so that that’s a very important stage that I feel. Some people get stuck in, you know, the externalization, and the idol worship in the guru were shipping and that kind of thing. In that this way, say Ramanna. If you will personified for lack of a better word, the purity of not even doing anything, not not doing just realizing that you are always yourself, you can never not be yourself and going at it from that angle. And then if someone demonstrates a lack of that capability, he would backpedal, but he had already covered the root, he had already hit them with the highest. And then he can backpedal based on what’s necessary. He doesn’t start with the he didn’t start with the lower and then say, well, you he didn’t think you were ready for the higher? No, he’s going to give you every opportunity, if you will, to to grip on to that, and to not have to be diminished. In any in understanding, or assume that you can’t comprehend the very simple truth that, you know, I always am.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I’ve heard that about him that he would sort of like, hit it with the highest teaching. And if that didn’t stick, then he would say, take it a notch down and Okay, how about this, you know, I just kind of keep doing that until we found the right fit.

Nick Gancitano: Yes, it’s such a delight to you know, to be in that because there’s such a sense of, of empowerment and compassion, and a teacher that, if you will, for lack of a better word that that recognizes that nowadays, on the level of form, of course, we’re talking on the subtlest level, none of that makes any difference, right, because we are talking on that level, then then, of course, it’s, it is a breath of fresh air. And, you know, once you’ve been to to have anomaly, and you’ve been through the guru circuit there, and seeing all the different teachers that arrive and share their teaching, it’s very easy to get kind of pulled around and led to different ponds to dry to,

Rick Archer: I’ve heard, it’s quite a scene over there, I haven’t been there myself, it’s quite an exquisite

Nick Gancitano: environment every way, you know, and of course, being on our Dochula was a very wonderful one, you know, experience, but, but you can find whatever it is you want there in the way of spiritual seeking. And also, you know, just being there without having any expectation, but just deciding, I’m going to go live there for a month or two months, or six months, and then just staying there. And allowing whatever is going to occur to to occur without having any expectations. Because if you have an expectation, then of course, the mind will gladly accommodate you by creating circumstances and experiences that will make you feel that that’s part of the awakening. BUT BUT THE AWAKENING IS has really absolutely nothing to do with experience at all. It’s it’s you know, and it’s making that that distinction, oh, it’s not the experience. It’s that which experiences it all that which is perceiving it. And so this is another place, but it is it does get kind of in your face there, because you will find teachers from pretty much every lineage. They’re

Rick Archer: sort of like Alice’s restaurant. So how long were you over there? Well,

Nick Gancitano: several times, several times. Yeah. And stayed for about six weeks or so each time. And that was. And so just to spend time there in the hill. And, yeah, the first time was to find out a little bit more about the lineage of Rama after the insights. And then of course, I recognize there’s a heavy component of ritualism which didn’t appeal to me, at any point, I really felt like I do that, but I recognized that it was necessary for some people to do that. But I kind of got away from that I just started going then instead of just spending the entire day on the hill. And that was very profound and I got very sick at one point that may was an incredible point to where temperature was 104 or something like that for for quite some time. And it was evidently necessary for the some of the body As that were, you know, entrenched in the in the organism to to be uprooted but it was didn’t know if it was malaria or what at first but it you know, after a while you just kind of you recognize jump under the cold shower and you just want to die at that point and then that was and then so then you felt a tremendous release occur in that and so we just layer upon layer seems to unravel in that, you know, it doesn’t have to be there, but it certainly seemed to assist in the process for whatever level that occurred.

Rick Archer: Yeah, well, yeah, there have been instances in which sicknesses proceeded profound spiritual awakenings like St. Francis, you know, we spoke of Zeffirelli, there’s that Brother Sun Sister Moon, which depicted him having gotten very sick and then waking up from that a completely different person. So maybe sometimes that’s the way a lot of karma gets knocked out or something.

Nick Gancitano: Yeah, yeah, there was a lot of law, you become privy to a lot of different dimensions in that vibration, I guess you could call it and you know, and not really knowing what any of it is because you never really be prepared for anything that’s going to occur. That’s why it’s, it’s important to be aware of the aim and just give attention to the formless awareness and realize that any type of movement in consciousness is on some level of distraction.

Rick Archer: Hmm, yeah, actually, you know, the first time I ever had what I would think of as spiritual experiences when I was a kid, and I had a high fever. And I kept having this experience of simultaneous vastness and timeliness, heaviness and lightness, it’s like, at the same time, it’s like I was infinitely heavy and infinitely light, infinitely vast and infinitely small. And I was just sitting there in bed with this high fever, like, what, you know, having this experience and thinking, This is so amazing. But it’s like, you know, the fever somehow, as you say, kick me into a different dimension or something. Yeah. So your first encounter with Rama was this, you know, okay, get rid of the books and the pictures. But you said you had several what was, that was

Nick Gancitano: the second The first was the first one was the teaching. I said, and, and so that, and then the others were just non physical, they were more they sort of difficult to describe, it was more just the presence or recognition of a presence also, there was a certain channeling, if you will, if you will, it felt like a channeling kind of just coming through where it was almost like he was, had come within this particular body. And at a time, when there was teaching occurring through this body, that presence came within this one, to make sure that I did not because this person was at a very critical stage in their sadhna, the person you were teaching, yes, yeah, that they received it worded in such a way that they could not be misinterpreted. And so in a sense, he was he was teaching me while he was inside.

Rick Archer: Interesting. So So what do you think was actually going on there? I mean, a strict non dualist fundamentalist might might say, wait a minute, Nick, you’re getting into kind of, you know, who is this? entity? Ramanna that’s coming and coming inside this entity of Nick. And that sounds rather dualistic to me what, you know, so what do you think was really going on the mechanics of that phenomenon?

Nick Gancitano: Yeah, well, the whole thing is, is phenomenal. I mean, the whole seeking, you know, finding thing is on the level of, you know, phenomenon. So, you know, there’s no difference between that and a teacher sitting across from a student in a classroom and talking to them, really, it’s all part of the illusion. And so, these phenomena are operating on a level that’s far beyond our comprehension. For me to speculate as to why that happened, or, or to be able to explain to someone who is a, you know, a so called Pure advisors, you know, that can’t be explained, Jesus used many, you know, dualistic terminology as well and so did other teachers. It’s, it’s really just, it’s the struggle of trying to explain what cannot be explained words need to be used. And so, in that regard, I mean, I can’t make any sense of it all I know is that that was the so called phenomenal depiction of the nominal reality, okay. And so, how that manifests, they do mirror you know, they are in a constant state of reflecting. And so, somewhere depending on where you find your, your sense of self, you will, if you will intersect that transmission or that experience. Every experience is based on a I guess you could say a vibration where you’re in you know, getting an A yogic phrase, you know, that you can interpret that in different ways based on chakras and all that kind of stuff. But really, it’s all just a manifestation of the formless awareness. And so I like to keep it as close to that as simple. You know, as possible. I don’t really know why certain things happened. I don’t know why, why sometimes I even referred to God as Father for a while, you know, because that seemed comforting at the time, you know, for whatever reason, but there came a time when there was a recognition that, you know, there’s no separation between you and the Father to make any, you know, alluding to the, to anything contrary to that would be to go astray. And of course, but there is a series there are a series of stages that someone goes through before they let go of that. Before those concepts, even non duality is part of the duality. Non duality and duality are a duality in and of themselves, you know, they only exist because of each other in. In truth, there’s really neither, there’s because there’s all It all exists within the one, right. And so, you know, this is where if you become attached to dualistic perspective, or a non dualistic perspective, you’ve missed the point. It’s really somewhere in between and including both.

Rick Archer: I love that you couldn’t have said it better. Brilliant. And and two people do that do tend to get a little bit lopsided to one side of the other, you know, and adamant about it’s only this way, or it’s only that way. And I think it misses the point that Nisargadatta said, and I’ve said this in several interviews, that the ability to embrace paradox and ambiguity is a good measure of one’s spiritual development or whatever, you know. Yeah. Yeah,

Nick Gancitano: he’s just he had a way of stating things that was quite beautiful. But I

Rick Archer: find helpful is to take the example of a you know, common thing, I mean, take this, this cup, for instance. And then on some level, there’s a cup, you know, and but then a sort of molecular chemist or something might say, No, it’s just molecules. And he’s right, there’s no cup, it’s only molecules, then maybe an atomic, an atomic physicist might say, there are no molecules, it’s only atoms. And he’s right to that level, it’s only atoms, where are the molecules? And then, you know, quantum physicist might say, well, there are no atoms, it’s only these virtual fluctuations in the in the vacuum state. And he’s right, also, you know, so on all these different levels, you know, the each has its own level of validity, and one does not actually invalidate the other. And somehow the whole package is, each of those things is true, and they’re all true together. And they all kind of fit harmoniously without contradiction or conflict. And that’s the way the universe is.

Nick Gancitano: Yeah, and that, you know, this is an excellent point, because part of the realization, when it really drives deep, is that everything that has ever been said is true. And it’s also not true, you know, so you can, you know, from that perspective, so to argue with somebody here to, you know, say, Well, you know, you’re really, it’s kind of you have to take one direction, and you have to run deep with it, if there is an intention, let’s just say to pound a point home, but there really is no individual pounding the point home. And, but at the same time there is because there is the appearance of a separate individual who’s getting awakened. And so for the sake of the Infinite Intelligence playing all the roles, something needs to occur. And in order for that, to to express itself in this particular density, you know, there’s a lot of people will get into the spiritual thing, and there, they get caught up really, in the letter of the law, rather than the heart of the law. And what’s important, really is, is the presence that comes through in what’s being communicated. And if we, if we tune into that state, if we tune into that presence, and we, we recognized we can resonate with what’s being communicated, rather than let’s just say what the, you know, the literal translation is, you know, depending on what the situation is, so, this is why, you know, we all have people that would appear to be more present that will come through and they will have a mastery of the Advaitic principles and, you know, maybe can even speak Sanskrit, you know, got it all together. And yet, someone who doesn’t understand anything and acknowledges that is in a state of surrender, they don’t understand why any of it is but they’re happy. And there’s a sense of peace and that’s really the objective that’s the focus is to is to be At that point where the intellect is not constantly critiquing and analyzing, breaking things down and, you know, into quarks and bosons and muons and leptons and whatever it is that goes on, right? I mean that that’s, we can do that. And you could probably make a good argument, or a good case, you know, depending on you know who your audiences, but really, if you the highest messages that there are basically two paths, and they really are one, you know, there’s surrender, and there’s self inquiry. Every spiritual path ultimately fails. Every one of them because ultimately, and leads,

Rick Archer: it becomes its own undoing eventually. Yeah,

Nick Gancitano: they fail because you because you will never find the answer. You will never find nothing and something.

Rick Archer: Right. Well, that’s, in a way that’s like saying, well, the boat fails, you know, you get you across the river, and then you get out of it. But yeah, boat doesn’t fail. It’s just like, it’s, it’s it served its purpose. So you get off?

Nick Gancitano: Well, there. I mean, yes. And again, this, this, to me, at least this is, you know, my perspective on it is that you can believe that it was necessary for you to do everything that was done. And but then there’s also an individual that had to be there, in order for that perception to take place that I had to, I had to meditate for 10 hours a day for two years, in order for the Satori to occur. Now, that’s a speculation. It did happen that way, because that’s exactly what’s supposed to occur, it’s perfect. And so if I say, well, now run around and say, okay, everything is perfect, everything is perfect, as somebody who doesn’t think it’s perfect, that doesn’t really help, right doesn’t really create transformation is important is to tune into the space to the stillness. And so that you can identify with what their dilemma is. And having compassion is really just seeing them as already being the self, see, everything is being the self. And by being that, then whatever information needs to flow through your mouth, or in the way of the movement of your body will happen naturally, without any effort on your part, because your attention is just given to the self. And of course, the infinite intelligence knows exactly what that needs. Yeah, so as long as there’s an individual there, it’s like Ramana Maharshi said, it’s like the blind leading the blind, if you’re trying to teach someone, it really doesn’t, doesn’t really support. So this is where being exposed to a lot of different teachings can be beneficial. And it can also be a hindrance, depending really on, on really where someone is. So that’s why, you know, again, say this surrender is the result of the path failing, someone will try to do everything they possibly can, they will count prayer beads, they will sit meditations, Zen, whatever they want, all day long, do all these things, maybe stand on their head, you know, do some Pranayamas, whatever, they whatever they do, ultimately, they’re going to get so frustrated, that they’re going to say what the hell’s going on here. You know, I’m not getting any closer, and all these thoughts start flooding in. And then there’s just like, I give up. And, you know, even Buddha, you know, Buddha’s realization didn’t come while he was in the midst of his meditation, it arose after his complete giving up and waking up the next morning, and then the realization was there. So you could say, well, you know, he did it,

Rick Archer: then you say, I was gonna, I’m gonna sit under this tree until I until I’m enlightened, and that’s it,

Nick Gancitano: or I’m either gonna die or until I’m enlightened. Right, so and so then of course, the realization comes in the complete giving up and letting go, the self inquiry is even a form of surrender, if you take it on, because every time you say, Okay, now who’s aware of that thought, I am, you are now giving your attention, choosing to give your attention to God, the I Am, rather than that particular thought, right in every month. So you’re surrendering that thought, you’re not rejecting it, or resisting it, or trying to get a better to a better thought. You’re saying, I don’t care what it is. Who’s giving attention to it? I am, it no longer becomes unimportant what that thought is. And so now you’re surrendering to the eye. And so whether or not you’re surrendering to what your concept of God is, battle, eventually will lead to a letting go of everything else as well. They both all ultimately lead to what’s called surrender. And then of course, surrender really is just being

Rick Archer: I would I just want to sort of bring in the point that we’ve been dancing around here though, which is that there are there is a sort of an appropriateness to different teachings at different stages of realization. We were talking about how Rama would sort of, you know, scale it back to the point where he found the the appropriate one for that particular person. And so you know, sometimes, you know, spiritual teachers will, you know, they’ll be on their own path for 2030 years doing meditation, whatever they do, and then they’ll have, they’ll have an awakening and then they’ll turn around and say, You don’t need to do any of that you don’t need to awaken. Because from their perspective, it doesn’t, it seems superfluous, it seems like they’ve gone beyond it. But I would caution that, you know, just just as you went through all the stuff, you did the Jacobsen technique, and, and this, that and the other thing. It’s hard to say what if but those those were all stepping stones for you, those are all stages, and you finally reached a stage in which all those became irrelevant. And no point in having around I mean, you sit there was a stage of reading Rahman Ohashi books and having these pictures around and then at a certain point, that stage was irrelevant. So there seems to be a tendency in some spiritual circles to just sort of dismiss the value of all possible paths and stages and practices and whatever from the perspective of the mountaintop, you know, but but there are kind of there is sort of a value in terms of practical advice at each stage of climbing the mountain, which I don’t think should just universally be swept aside.

Nick Gancitano: Perhaps everyone who’s hearing this, Rick will be at the point where they’re ready to sweep it all aside and stay with the inquiry. Perhaps this is this is the question that, you know, could this teaching, as it’s being delivered here, come to anyone who has not read before? Well,

Rick Archer: I was just listening to Scott killaby. This morning, I don’t know if you know who he is. He’s a non dual teacher that I’ve interviewed, I was listening to a recording of his. And he was citing an instance in which a person who he had come in contact with who had, you know, really been dwelling on non dual teachings became kind of depressed to the point of suicidal because he felt that he kind of acquired this dualistic perspective, like everything is meaningless, and nothing matters, and you have no free will, and therefore you can’t do anything. And, you know, it actually sort of was having a counterproductive effect on him. And

Nick Gancitano: so you know, there’s so it appears it was having a counterproductive effect. But you know, again, having the faith in the infinite intelligence, nothing is counterproductive. Even if the body were to take its own life, let’s just say, that would in fact, be the destiny of that body and the Infinite Intelligence will have again, succeeded in accomplishing what was necessary at that time. For instance, let us consider, say a yogi, who experiences a very extreme Kundalini blowout, not under the guidance of a proper teacher, and his brain is damaged in the process. Subtle circuitry, let’s just say, and so he goes through such a process, and now his body needs to die in order to take a more better suited one, we could look at it and say, Well, you know, the, you know, you shouldn’t be doing it, because it led him to die, he see this, well, then, you know, where does responsibility fall all responsibility falls in God, it all it all falls in it. So if somebody hears something, even if it appears that it’s not true, or it’s not right, or it’s not in their best interest, it’s always in your best interest, because you will always hear what is necessary, given your intention. If your intention is self realization, then you will be drawn to a teacher who will point you directly to the self. If you are not geared if it’s not the destiny of a certain organism to realize the Self, but let’s just say to convey mistruths are non truths along the way for a period of time before they’re ready, then then every action that they that is performed through that body will demonstrate that type of behavior. And so ultimately, the reason why self inquiry is so simple is you just give attention, I everyone who’s aware of AI, everyone can be aware of AI, and on a deeper level. And so if they want to, you know, dissipate their thoughts toward a lot of different things, and believe that they do need to go through all those other steps, then they can, but let’s just say that you’re in Tennessee, and if you’re in Tennessee, and you want to go to let’s just say Miami, okay, now, you can and you want to ride your bike to Miami. So let’s say well, okay, I’m gonna get every single day, I’m gonna ride my bike toward New York. And I’m gonna get I’m gonna get my legs strong enough so that one day I can ride to Miami. But all you really had to do was just start going toward Miami, and your legs would have gotten strong anyway. So you would eventually So again, these are all just different ways that the mind can create distractions and say, Well, you didn’t need to do it. But I mean, the whole idea and really, the most compassionate thing you can do is assume that everyone can handle the self inquiry which is the most direct path see them in that light. So that that consciousness then permeates their very belief system, their limiting belief system that I need to go through 20 years of Austin, I need to master you know, this, and which is really all just the you know, it’s just an egoic ploy to make you believe you have to go through all the certain steps, there really are no steps, there’s just I, and there’s just now and you know whether or not you deliver it in the way of her totally does, where you just say, feel the now, you know, become aware of the presence by now if you say get hold of the sense of I, and just keep your attention there. And you say, Well, I can’t hold my attention there all the time. Okay, well, that’s just a thought, who thinks that they can hold their attention there all the time, who thinks they need to do poojas for, you know, for three lifetimes before they’re ready to actually turn inward? Well, you do. And so and so the eye as long as you get in touch with the eye, and you see all really the sudden is from my perspective is it’s not about what you think about it’s reversing the direction of consciousness, if the mind is externalized, and going toward things, no matter what that form is, that is externalized mind. But as soon as you say, turn attention towards self and turn inward, you have succeeded, if you will, at reversing or neutralizing the conditioning, the tendency for the mind to go outward toward those things, which is really the primary focus of the self inquiry, it’s not to ask the question, Who am I, it’s to reverse the flow, so that you can become caught. So the eye can become caught in the heart current, and withdrawn into the source into the heart where it then vanquishes. And so this is why I say it doesn’t really matter if somebody wants to do yoga. You know, that’s, that’s great. If somebody wants to read the Bible, you know, do all these and read all the different scriptures, that’s fine. Just don’t forget yourself in the process. Yeah, and so this way, it doesn’t really matter what kind of spiritual path somebody is on, it’s not to take away from that, it’s just to realize that once you taste the bliss of the self, those desires to do all those other things, they’re gonna just fade away anyway, they’re gonna all drop away. So you I’m saying is that you can save yourself the headaches, of having to go through all those if you’re hearing this, and you can just immediately come to the I Am, and just rest there. And then there’s no place really for the ego to be fed in doing an effort and doership because that’s really the root of the ego is the sense that I’m doing all this spiritual practice and that I need to purify my mind, and I need to purify my body. No, there’s, that’s just the thought, the eyes ever pure. And, and this is why I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with those things I’m saying you can bypass it all,

Rick Archer: the eye is ever pure, but obviously, you know, we live the experience of the eye, as a human being through a physical apparatus through a nervous system, you know, and if that physical apparatus is damaged, in certain ways, we won’t be living that experience of the eye, at least not in any way that we can express or, you know, communicate or you know, won’t be a living reality, we might be in a coma or something on some level, the eyes there, but it’s, you know, it’s not being lived. And, you know, as ICs, as I see spiritual practices, they’re just a way of fine tuning that, that apparatus through which the eyes lived, like a guitar player is gonna tune his guitar before playing it. And I know people who, you know, meditated for decades, and then, you know, awoke and don’t meditate anymore. They just don’t feel like it’s relevant to them. I know people who still do it regularly, even though they’ve awakened and they feel like it’s just icing on the cake or something, they enjoy it. I know, a guy who was self realized at the age of four and went through, and you know, and now is in his 60s and was and has been doing spiritual practices since his teens and still doesn’t. So it’s like, you can’t one size does not fit all, you know, you’re gonna find among people, all sorts of instances of different situations, you know, and I just I’m leery of making any kind of universal rules or prescriptions of this is the way it ought to be. And everyone ought to do this. You know, it’s good. The variety is the spice of life. And we’ve been talking a little bit about God and infinite intelligence. And if there’s, there’s one thing that’s evident about that Infinite Intelligence intelligence is it sure likes variety.

Nick Gancitano: Yes. And we’re I’m not saying that there is only one I’m saying is that you can do the body can do whatever it’s going to do, but that’s not who you are. Anyway, so as far as the variety of life and all these things, those are on the level of phenomenon, those right level of physicality, so that’s not really who you are anyway, so by giving attention to the I Am to the self to the formless awareness, how many varieties of form are there there. And so and so if we give attention to that, then all those other things they may continue to go on until the strings or the tentacles of identity identification and conditioning begin to withdraw into the heart, and then you can rest there and realize that it’s all happening in you, and that you’re not really the character in the dream, you’re the dreamer. And so a lot of people again, that may state that they are self realized, and that they need to, and that they still meditate is fine to say that you had an realization, when one knows the self, there is no such thing as meditation. So to even sit in meditation from the realized state, you just means you’re just sitting there, it doesn’t mean that you’re meditating or not meditating, self realization is merging into the meditator where you disappear anyway. So again, these are these are all very convenient arguments from a NEO Advaitic perspective, okay, and it’s very commonly used, that I still, every once in a while, like to meditate will just say that you’re sitting there or don’t say that you’re doing anything, but to say that I still like to meditate. They’re still an either liking to meditate. You see,

Rick Archer: well, it’s like, what you might say, I like to eat, you know, I like I like, I like Italian food, that that implies there’s an eye, they’re liking Italian food? Well, it’s almost absurd to say that, obviously, we still eat, you know, and we have, we have preferences, you know, I mean, from Yeah, fine. It’s like we said earlier with the cup, you know, on one level, it’s there’s no code. And I’m, well, you know, on one level, there are no preferences. On the level there are, it’s like the Zen saying, first there is a mountain, then there is no mountain then there is. And it’s not all or one, it’s like both.

Nick Gancitano: So then what is the intention of this communication? Is it is in other words, is it to, to bring one into the self and a by there or to sustain the seeking?

Rick Archer: Oh, I think ultimately, it’s the first. Okay.

Nick Gancitano: Okay, ultimately? Or would you say, I mean, is that the direction? Because Because how many directions can we go in at one time? If we talk about the duality and externalizing our mind, then we have to turn, you know, we have unless we’ve developed the ability to keep our attention in the self, and for that to occur, then there’s no one doing it anyway. Right? As long as there is a seeker than they have to be clear, do I see because there is no really waking up, you’re either awake, or you’re not. You either know who you are, or you don’t, the seeking is all part of the illusion, it’s all part of the dream. It’s not so you’re either awake, or you’re in the dream. You’re caught up in the dream. And as long as you’re seeking there is no, I’m getting awake. You’re either awake, or you’re not. There’s not stages along the way. There are about a

Rick Archer: year case where you had that profound Satori. And for nine months, you were in a state of some kind of awakened state and that but then after a while, you began to have all this stuff, would you say that you were definitely not awake?

Nick Gancitano: Definitely not. That was see that that’s the whole the whole thing. See, to the ego. Enlightenment is something it’s a thing. It’s an attainment, it’s an experience. And, and so that’s the delusion, because no matter how still, you may feel that you are, as long as you are identified with forms, even experiences such as bliss, kundalini rushes, support, whatever that is, there’s still someone there. That’s believing they’re doing and that’s why I emphasize that that was a distraction that was a, an egoic tactic, in order to convince you so that the mind does not continue to, in other words, to break the sadhna. Right, break the break the continuum of turning inward, and to break that pattern because, again, the ego the illusion, Maya, survives, because of the tendency to rehash the old patterns of going out and attaching on to things and it will make your experiences that much more elaborate. In order to seduce the mind. You see, into going back out and taking those forms. But as long as the attention turns back in toward the self toward the Formless, and you rest in the peace of that, see, then when that seeker dissolves, in that formless awareness, then the body can appear to be doing what it’s doing. But the really even if the person the body, let’s just say the organism that inhabits the awakened consciousness appears to be meditation, they’re not really meditating right here to be meditating to the people who are outside looking at them that that believe that they’re not awake yet.

Rick Archer: They appear to be eating or walking or talking or doing this stuff, but from their perspective…

Nick Gancitano: yeah…

Rick Archer: nothing’s happening.

Nick Gancitano: Yes,

Rick Archer: yeah, no, I got that. Yeah, that’s good

Nick Gancitano: on my screen just went off here though. Here we go. You look good.

Rick Archer: So what else? So the blue this is an out of the blue question. But do you on some level, believe in reincarnation? Well, do you think that’s a phenomenon? That’s part of the mechanics of the universe?

Nick Gancitano: I think it is real is this reality is.

Rick Archer: okay. So if we, you know, and this reality is, of course, ultimately not real, but to the extent

Nick Gancitano: But it does exist it Yes, yes, but it exists in the level of thought, right. And so as long as we identify with the mind, then yes, there is reincarnation, when attention is turned into the source, then whether or not one is experiencing a life now, or in the projected 100 years from now or the past, it’s really irrelevant, because in the now, right, which is the only place that really exists, you see, is the formless awareness that’s aware of all of this. So yes, it does exist to some. But again, this is a very convenient way that the mind, you know, if you’re a Christian, you say, there’s no reincarnation if you’re Hindu, and say there is it’s a very convenient way for the split in the mind to, to endure, you know, the conflict between the two arguing schools. They’re both right. And they’re both correct. Not right.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I would say that, you know, it exists to the same extent that planets exists, and flowers exists and dogs exist. I mean, if you’re going to sort of acknowledge the existence of phenomenal creation, then there’s no reason why that couldn’t be part of phenomenal creation. And the reason I brought it up is that I’m, I’m wondering whether you’ve ever considered the possibility that the reason you sort of just, you know, had this spiritual proclivity from a young age might be that you had, you know, done spiritual practices in past lives or something. And if developed to the point where in this life, it just started to blossom in you.

Nick Gancitano: Yes, yes. Well, that was that was the understanding. At the time, that was the, I guess, you would say, the intuitive understanding that had occurred that the the stream the life stream, that you could call, Nick, or whatever that was, was, it had gone through a series of experiences that you could divide into separate lives? You know, and you could say, well, that he was a devotee of Ramana, Maharshi. And a past incarnation, you could say that, did you

Rick Archer: get some inkling of that? Or are you just speculating?

Nick Gancitano: That was that was a, that was the feeling. Okay? See,

Rick Archer: so you could, you could have been around there during his lifetime, whatever.

Nick Gancitano: Yeah. Now, that was while there was identification with form, even though it was in on the level of form within the dream. But again, now there’s a recognition that was all just a movement in consciousness, so I can call it whatever I would like. But really, it can all be reduced to this, the mind when it is moving. You see, when it is in movement, it creates duality, when it’s not moving, when it’s still, there is not. And so whether or not that’s reincarnation, or whether or not, that’s this incarnation or even a future one, you know, that those are all basically lumped into one category, they’re all in the level of form. So So in other words, ego is when the mind is externalized. And the self is when the mind is turned inward.

Rick Archer: Good. That’s a nice pithy way of putting it is I mean, that could that could be remembered as a sutra, sort of, you know, the ego. Ego is when the mind is externalized. And the self is when it’s turned within.

Nick Gancitano: Yeah. There are some Yogi’s that actually believe they that each makes statements that I still have three lifetimes, I still have four more lifetimes until my realization occurs, which is really sad. They told you that you do. No, no, that they do that they do. That there’s really you know, that that’s they’ve accepted their fate. And that is just a thought, the fact that I have three more lifetimes or four more lifetimes. Number one, it makes, you know, time in the future a reality which, you know, only exists in the level of mind. But as soon all they have to do is say, Well, who thinks that? Yeah, I do. And so now you’re back at the eye. And so the conditioning begins to, to unwind. And so you can see how if you buy into the dogmas of the various different logos, and religious systems and philosophies that it’s very easy to get caught up in that and that’s why I don’t say there’s anything wrong with those, I just simply point to the fact that whatever it is that you’re giving your attention to, if you just ask who’s aware of that. And you turn inward until the conditioning of consciousness begins to find that current, there’s like a, it feels like an inward current. As soon as the mind becomes still you can feel that flow that like that movement going inward and to catch that and ride that inward. Then all those different thoughts. They really just kind of drop away they have no strength. It’s like the, you could say this the Scripture about the burnt rope. You know this And this type of thing, and nothing has any strength, it doesn’t mean that those thoughts won’t occur, but they won’t have any staying power. Because they’re like, they’re like clouds floating in the air. You see through it. And once you see through it, you’re like, ah, you know, yeah, why why am I bother giving attention to that? And and again, only if the intention again, everything I’m saying here is only if one’s intention is self realization, because some people may say that they want to awaken but really underlying it. That’s the ego saying it, you know, that’s making that accusation, really, it doesn’t want to wake up, it wants to seek for a couple of years, you know, and that’s fine, too. It’s all it’s all good. But that’s not, that’s not what I’m talking about. What I’m talking about is someone who wants to really find that place and stay there and not identify with that it requires your entire mind the entire mind to be focused on that. And this is why suffering is such a wonderful tool of awakening. And this is why every spiritual path ultimately leads there gets your attention. Yeah, it does. Because once you once you suffered and you realize, Wow, I’m not getting anywhere with this, you will start jumping around to different maybe sadhana is not you, in general, people jump around to different spiritual practices, maybe different teachers, thinking that that teacher is going to say something that’s going to jar them. And that that’s going to be they’re going to be the Sadhguru. But really, that’s the Sadhguru within, that’s allowing all of these thoughts to even emerge into the, into the field of awareness for it to be seen. This is the epiphysis This is the whole humor of bowls in the cosmic joke, if you will, and it’s really you, you’re always here, you’ll always be here. And and so we you know, we can speculate on level of form and the fun in the games of the seeking and all that. Sat down. Dean has a pretty interesting book out and you probably heard of it. Secrets. definers it’s I

Rick Archer: haven’t read that right. I read the pearls, but I haven’t read secrets to finders. Yeah. Where is he these days?

Nick Gancitano: I don’t know. I haven’t you know, I haven’t. I’ve never met him. I just, I just saw he

Rick Archer: came to my town. I saw him speak, but I had to track him down and interview him how to do that beautiful guy. Yeah. He woke in prison in South Florida.

Nick Gancitano: Yeah. It’s good a place as any, right?

Rick Archer: Yeah, what the heck? So how long have you been teaching now?

Nick Gancitano: Well, gosh, it’s probably been I guess the first student that came me was in two 119 98. But that was not that was, you know, pre awakening, so to speak, that was, you know, that was when I was, again, making the statement that I was, you know, awake and that kind of thing running around, you know, and, and touting that. I would say, you know, I authentically really is seven years, eight years.

Rick Archer: Okay. And so what are the fruits? Among the students you have? Who have been drawn to you? What kind of outcomes have they been getting?

Nick Gancitano: Well, I don’t really know, I don’t, I haven’t really been focused on keeping them around. My, my focus is to have them understand the basic principles of you would call Ghana, and, and to understand the self inquiry and the reason for self inquiry, and then to let them go.

Rick Archer: So but of any of them, at any point, gotten back to you or said, Hey, Nick, I will I woke up, I got it.

Nick Gancitano: Well, my instruction was Don’t, don’t, you don’t need to, you know, there’s no one to tell. You know, once you know, once, you know, then then I’ll know. Okay, there’s so now Penelope, you know, she has undergone a shift she lives here. That’s, you know, very obvious. And so, but that’s, but that’s a she doesn’t really talk about it or anything.

Rick Archer: Yeah, that’s okay. But, you know, I think there’s some validity to asking that question, you know, because it’s like, as Christ said, you should know them by their fruits. And you wonder, all right, well, what is the efficacy of this? This teaching? You know, I mean, it is because you’re spending all this time and energy doing it. And, you know, you presumably it’s for some particular benefit to the people who with whom you’re interacting, if you felt like it felt like it was of no value to them, you would be doing something else or nothing at all. So you wonder, you know, okay, well, how many of them are kind of waking up having the kind of awakening you have had?

Nick Gancitano: Well, the last the last one would probably be the closest to the way that I would see it would be that not doing anything at all. It’s not doing anything at all that makes the transmission effective if there is such a thing. In truth, there is no awakening or you know, and again, on that level, there is no real awakening and, and when you convey from that space You know, your words carry a vibration, let’s just say that, that has a very penetrating effect on the consciousness of, let’s just say the one that it defaults, but it really hasn’t gone anywhere. And really, it’s just a projection of your own mind that you’re waking up. And so this is why I say, if someone comes here, it’s, that’s great. And if they stick around, that’s great, too, I don’t tell them to leave, I encourage them that eventually, you should replace what you’re perceiving as being the outer, you know, Guru, if you will, with the inner guru. And then if you end up leaving, and don’t come back, there’s not going to be any hard feelings, or anyone who’s going to miss you, you know, that’s going to be disappointed by the fact you didn’t come back. It’s just, it’s like, congratulations, you know, if you if you, if you’re out there, and you’ve and you feel like you’re abiding in the self, and you’re feeling that stillness, then you just continue to watch the drain. And it’s ultimately us, you know, me anyway. So, you know, it’s, it’s the same witnessing awareness, that’s, you know, going to be looking out of their eyes as well. So, yeah, it’s nice when people come through, because it’s, it’s kind of it’s part of the game, you know, it’s, it’s part of the fun to watch someone who’s pretending that they’re, you know, that they’re a separate individual, realize that they’re not, is really, it’s, it’s, it’s a joyous event.

Rick Archer: So you… I’m sorry, go ahead.

Nick Gancitano: But well, you know, you could, you could look at it like this, you have a room, a massive room full of invisible furniture. And, you know, and of course, they’re, they’re all covered up with, then you, you know, you’re born, let’s just say and, and then all of a sudden, people start running around and throwing sheets over them and covering this furniture up. And now it appears that they all have some shape. And then maybe some people are around, and so they’re covered up with sheets, too, and you have all these, so you have some that are running around, covering up everything and trying to give it form and trying to make it visible, make it into shape, while you have others that are running around, taking the sheets off, awaking them, you see helping them but then of course, the ones that have taken them off, they’re running around and throwing them back over, trying to cover them up again. But once of course, the sheets come all the way off, you know, then you see them, the ones that already have been around without the sheet on but know the truth, you see, they allow that sheet to stay on. Because it’s much more effective. If you see the ones that are throwing the sheets around believe you see that, that you still don’t have the understanding, in other words, that your sheet has never come off. So it’s more effective, to keep your sheet on and to, you know, be like you’re ignorant, there’s much more effect on those that are still if you will, wanting to take the sheet off. And this and this is this is very similar to the story of Brahma and Maya, you know, part of consciousness is trying to keep the illusion alive. Well, part of it is trying to awaken. And you see, and that’s what keeps the balance. That’s what keeps the play alive. Yeah, it’s a game. And so as long as you realize it’s a game, and it’s all in fun, then you don’t take anything too serious. And you know, you can have a fun Oh, who is it that’s pretending that they don’t know, which, ultimately, you’re seeing that underneath it all. You’re very seeing everyone is already being awake, but pretending to be not awake is the most powerful tool of, you know, instrument of awakening that there is because to see, everyone is the self has already awake. Cause causes that reality, to follow them.

Rick Archer: Right? That what you were just saying reminds me of a verse in The Gita which goes something like, the wise did not delude the ignorant, you know, well, remaining uninvolved or unattached. They they engage fully in all sorts of actions, you know, and you know what I’m saying, you know, that verse, it’s kind of like, you know, you’re playing the game, you’re doing your thing, you’re engaging in activities, whereas your your predominant reality is that you’re not doing anything, but you go through the motions, so as not to sort of create a division or a delusion in the minds of those who perceive the world as more substantial than it actually is.

Nick Gancitano: Yes, yes. And Ramesh has a beautiful one to Ramesh Annabel scar, he said, that you don’t have free will, but you still have to live as if you do.

Rick Archer: Good point. Yeah. And Rama said that kind of stuff, too. I mean, he definitely advocated, you know, virtuous action. And, you know, he didn’t sort of absolve people of the responsibility to behave in a moral and compassionate way. Just you know, he didn’t sort of write the whole thing off as illusion you can do whatever the heck you want. In fact, he he used to like listen to the radio and read the newspaper every day. He was concerned with world affairs and practical matters. And, you know, he didn’t just sort of dismiss it as a as a dream to the extent that it was of no consequence to him how things, you know, how whether people were suffering or not or whatever?

Nick Gancitano: Yes, yes, it’s, it’s, as far as Ramana was interested in these different worldly affairs, he often use these things in order to formulate anecdotes, I teach you tools for awakening. And so he it was important for him to, to do that, not so much that he was interested in what was going on in the world, he but but he used them. He it was very, it’s very important for, if you will, that’s if that’s the organisms, you know, conditioning events, its destiny, a few well, it’s karma, whatever, to be a teacher, then, to the extent that that teacher is wanting to be an effective teacher, it’s important to be connected to the ones that do not believe that they are awake yet, so that they can correspond with them, so they can connect and relate with them.

Rick Archer: Yeah, well, to be able to speak in their language.

Nick Gancitano: Yeah, absolutely, Absolutely. In fact, Penelope, you know, she’s, she reminds, sometimes that that’s something that’s necessary, when, when that is lost sight of it, because sometimes it’s just like, oh, well, they don’t want to, and so she’ll, you know, she has a very soft way about her where she’ll, you know, she’ll go get them and she’ll say, you know, you just got to be patient, you know, you’ve got to be, and there’s a certain See, now there’s the personality, which has absolutely nothing to do, really, with the presence, that’s actually that’s actually, you know, penetrating or doing, you know, whatever it’s doing. And so, you know, as long as you believe it’s the personality, then then we lose track of it. But as long as you are, we believe that it’s just occurring anyway. And that these bodies are just forms that are occurring in that awakened consciousness, then it’s like, ice sculptures all floating in a big pool. You know, it’s all made of the same substance. But in the meantime, while it’s melting, it still can pretend like it’s not the water. That’s a

Rick Archer: nice metaphor. I like that. You know, how, you know, I had that period of you had your Satori, and you had a period of nine months, where you thought you were enlightened or something, and then you kind of realized you weren’t? Is there any possibility in your mind that there could be another such awakening that that would make you look back on your present situation and think why I thought I had it, but this is even more somehow, you know, clear, fundamental or whatever? Do you think that’s possible? Are you done?

Nick Gancitano: No, it’s well, it’s, you know, there’s, I mean, that there’s, that was an experience. And this is not an experience at all, this is more what’s aware of the experience, it’s abiding in that realization. It’s like, once you, you may be in the cloud, and pretending you’re a cloud. And if your cloud changes into the shape of another cloud, you could say, okay, that’s enlightenment. So as long as you’re identified with clouds, then you can say, okay, that one’s better than the one I’d had. So that’s enlightenment. And so as long as you think enlightenment is an experience, then you can fall under that misconception and fall into that trap. But as soon as you realize you’re the sky, then you can’t make that misunderstanding again.

Rick Archer: So you would characterize your nine month thing as an experience, even though it was even though it lasted so long, I mean, usually experiences are more, they come and go more, more quickly than that, you know. I mean, this was apparently a 24/7 condition write for

Nick Gancitano: it evidently felt it needed to construct a very elaborate retaliation in order to keep you know, in order to keep the dream alive, so it evidently felt it needed that extent. Also, there may there are a lot of different things that can occur within the physiology of the body that prevented from occurring quicker, it’s very difficult to say. And so also circumstances and environments and that type of thing, where you live, whether you’re exposed, like I was never on the computer, or doing any types of external things, so there really wasn’t a tendency to really need to externalize much. There were resources that were built up, were staying inward, you know, for extended periods of time and Nirvikalpa Samadhi. You know, we’re, we’re possible, but in so you can sustain the illusion of being awakened by entering into the Nirvikalpa state regularly. But that’s different than Sahaja Samadhi. So, yeah, so there are still some seeds there. And so you know, when the seeds are there, once you realize the truth quest, there’s a there’s a there’s a period of unwinding, if you will, that occurs after what would be considered 200. And there is no such thing really with the Nirvikalpa doesn’t really happen that way. It’s, that’s why, you know, it’s an experience there’s still someone there thinking of something. And the the knots, if you will the sense of me that is seen as being Whoa, that’s what I thought I was that me. It wasn’t just gone, it was seen and then it was not and so it’s but where is aware of once you know yourself to be formless awareness and non resistant of whatever it is that takes place, then there’s really no need for that there’s a knowingness, that’s, that’s all that really can be sad.

Rick Archer: I heard a yogi say one time that there, yogi’s in the Himalayas, who, you know, are in a sort of a state, like, like you’re nine months state, and you know, feel like they’ve got it, and then they, when they die, they’re quite surprised to discover they hadn’t actually been liberated. They just, but the circumstances of their life and all allow them to sort of perpetuate that that’s feeling a sense of liberation. But it wasn’t the final thing, even though they, you know, they thought it was

Nick Gancitano: Yes, it’s very common.

Rick Archer: Do you also find though that in I mean, do you find any sense of maturation or enhancement or progress or anything? Or is that all sort of like nonsense words to you? Now, I mean, you, you feel like there’s sort of a, an refinement, for instance, in your sensory apparatus, or anything else, that you’re the whole, you’ve referred to the physiology several times as being instrumental in enabling any sort of experience to be taking place, do you feel like your, your physiology is refining in some way now over the days, weeks, months, years, so as to enrich or, you know, clarify or in life and whatever adjective you want to use, your your experience of life

Nick Gancitano: would change, you know, the body changes, experiences change, but there’s no confusion as to the reality. So there’s no sense that, that I’m changing

Rick Archer: that, right? Well, I’m not, I’m not referring to the, the essential I changing, I mean, granted, that’s not gonna change, but in terms of the way that’s reflected or expressed in your life, as Nick, is there, some is the Nick character, somehow still undergoing some kind of refinement, which is enabling this character Nick to function more, in a more smooth or profound or, you know,

Nick Gancitano: it still learns, yeah, it’s still it’s still learns, and it’s still you could call it evolves, on some level, you could say that the body does go through that series of natural phenomena that occurs, you know, that you could call the Peralta You know, karma of the body if you if you wanted to, but, um, but that’s, but that’s not my, my, my, where my attention is, generally, from time to time it occurs, you say, oh, that’s different, that’s changed, or, or, you know, the body does change, it grows older, it gets gray hairs, it gets a little fatter, and, you know, a little hunched over and, you know, that kind of stuff, you know, but, but it doesn’t really, you know, it has different foods that it likes, it goes through its preferences, and that kind of thing, but, but there’s not a really fixation or a rejection or resistance or an attachment to those things, okay? There are still some predispositions like, you know, certain foods that, that you like that and still that still linger, you know, but there’s not a, if you don’t get it, you won’t linger, you may even get irritated, if they don’t have a certain food that you like at a restaurant, if you go out. And then, you know, you may demonstrate there may be a demonstration going on that you’re very disappointed and irritated. And then within a second, it’s completely gone. There’s no lingering of that, you know, of that behavior, so to speak.

Rick Archer: Or how about if the Lions have a crappy season? Does that bummed you out?

Nick Gancitano: Well, I don’t know. No, no, no, no, not anymore. There was a time not too long ago that it did, though. They’re interested in that. Yeah.

Rick Archer: The reason I brought up the question is that, you know, some teachers say that even after Self Realization, there’s a further refinement that takes place or that can take place resulting in kind of more subtle perception or, you know, growth of the heart, for instance, more love, compassion, that kind of thing, even though the self is not going to change any it’s it is what it is. And it’s realized, there’s still a kind of an evolution of the vehicle, you know,

Nick Gancitano: yeah, there, there was some Earlier I spoke of a there’s a period after what you could call the shift, the stabilization period, and I think that that would fall within that. It can’t of course, but that I think those are just personality traits, the personality over time. It is loses a lot of its vigor that when the physiology changes of the body, you know, the adrenals change. So the amount of, you know, adrenaline and all those types of things, the hormones change all that. Those are just natural phenomenon. I think that happened within the body, but but the realization is, it’s all encompassing, it’s complete, any type of subtle perceptions, they would all just be considered part of the movement in consciousness, not in the stillness. And so, yeah, I mean, you could perceive it that way. But I don’t think that that’s enhanced by the realization of the Self that, you know, would have occurred, whether or not the self was realized through that particular organism.

Rick Archer: Hmm. Okay, good. So we’re kind of reaching a point, I think what you could wrap it up at? Is there anything you feel like we might want to cover that I haven’t thought to ask about anything?

Nick Gancitano: Oh, no.

Rick Archer: Okay. So obviously, I’ll have this, it’s, well, people can watch and listen to this in various ways. And, for instance, if they’re watching it on YouTube, they might not realize there’s a website where you can watch all these interviews, I do one a week. And so that website is, bat gap, and stands for Buddha at the Gas Pump. And there I will have, you know, a little bio of Nick and a photo of him and also, you’ll send me that bio, and then whatever links you want me to put in it, like link to your website, so that if somebody is interested in you know, studying with you or something they can get in touch.

Nick Gancitano: Okay, Rick, thank you so much. been a real pleasure. Yeah, thanks.

Rick Archer: I’ve really enjoyed this and thank thank Penelope for me. She was you know, very well organized and pleasant to deal with and setting this up.

Nick Gancitano: She is she’s wonderful. Thank you and I will let her know and Rick, anything that we can do, you know, to support you and your your business and sharing this with people. We’d love to assist.

Rick Archer: Thanks. Well, it’s not a business. It’s more of a hobby. Maybe, maybe at some point, it’ll become a business. That’ll be great.

Nick Gancitano: Wonderful. Yeah.

Nick Gancitano: Thank you. And again, feel free keep in touch if there’s anything we can do to support you

Rick Archer: will do thanks. So next week, everyone I will be interviewing a Mandy sulk Sol K who lives in Great Britain and she is also a non dual teacher. So hope you watch them. Thank you for watching and see you next time.