Neelam 2nd Interview Transcript

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Neelam 2nd Interview

Rick Archer: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer and my guest today is Neelam I interviewed Neelam a couple of years ago. And you may want to listen to that interview before listen to this one. But otherwise, just go ahead and listen to this one. It’ll be fine on its own. Neelam is a direct disciple of HW l Pooja Papaji, whose teacher was Ramana Maharshi. Her unequivocal commitment to truth helps us turn inward and release underlying patterns of conditioning, which block the recognition of our true nature, with the utmost tenderness while helping us to address all aspects of daily living, including past conditioning and trauma. She invites us into the same recognition of truth that her teacher Papaji transmitted to her. And I can attest to that having listened to about 13 hours worth of nails recordings before this interview, and about 20 hours before the previous one. There’s a real sweet rapport between her and the people that she works with. And she she works with small groups on phone conferences, and probably in other ways as well. But that’s and extending over a period of months. So there’s a sort of an ongoing course that people take and interact with Neelam and is very sweet family feeling that develops among the participants and a lot of personal attention. So Neelam, welcome again, thanks for for doing this. Thank you. Yeah. And I’d like to start with a basic question, which is that the word awakening, or sometimes Enlightenment, maybe we’ll see, if you distinguish between those two words, is used a lot, you hear so many people saying I had an awakening. And but unless we all agree on what that actually means, then we’re not communicating. When we use the word, you know, one person says one thing and 10 different people hear 10 other things. So I’d like to start this interview by having you define what you mean by awakening and perhaps also Enlightenment, if there’s any distinction between the terms, and that will provide a good foundation for the rest of our discussion.

Neelam: Beautiful. So I really think it’s a very important question, because, as you say, so many things can be called awakening. So you know, I, I have to start, I have to go back. And I have to start with the direct experience of presence. Because that, first of all, that’s the, you know, the very direct transmission of the natural state. It’s also the gift of this lineage, you know, that there’s lineage just goes directly right there and says, Here you are, that’s your nature. And you can know that in this moment, right. So we have to begin with this, because without knowing this, you know, we can talk about anything, it can be just a mental understanding, it has to be an actual experience. So once we have that, once we know that and whenever that happened, it might have happened a long time ago, or years ago, or lifetimes ago, or, you know, there’s this process that starts with which is really guided by our desire for freedom. And that’s what I call the process that leads to awaken. And in this process, we will go through these experiences many different types of experiences of expansion and you know, kind of out of body, you know, and and bliss and love and peace and oneness and consciousness and all sorts of different things we may experience. And yet, eventually, we are going to go back to identifying or go back to that sense of identity as me that little sense of identity, right? So it will be a great experience. And it will be like, you know, I’m back here. And that is going to go on and on and on. For however long it goes. This isn’t it’s predetermined, we don’t know, you know, but eventually, eventually we come to this moment where that shift happens. And the shift happens and it’s a change from that sense of identity that is based in the body. We habitually even even when we point to ourselves, we say this is me. And then when you when we direct our attention inward, it goes through a lens first on a sense of the body, right? And that is the sense of identity. And in the moment of awakening, something happens, something shifts, something changes and That sense of identity changes into knowing oneself as presence. And so now it’s not an it’s not a mental knowing it’s an actual direct knowing that in the moment when you bring your attention to you’re in there, where the attention lens is present, right? It’s nowhere it’s nothing.

Rick Archer: Is there ever 100% One way or the other? You know, is there any buddy in the world who is, you know, just 100% identified with presence and no sense of individuality? Or anybody vice versa? Who is so completely locked into their individuality, that there’s just no remnant of presence whatsoever? Or is it all as a matter of, you know, 5050 or 4060 years? 3070?

Neelam: I don’t know that this is the point. And I don’t know that this is the point when we talk about awakening, right? Because when we talk about when I talk about awakening, I’m talking about that shift of attention, right? It’s shift of attention, and there’s no percentage in it, you know, there is no percentage you either know yourself as this body, or you know yourself as presence, there is no like, 70% Knowing yourself as presence. Now, however, awakening doesn’t necessarily mean the end of conditioning. It doesn’t necessarily mean that once awaken, that means nothing ever arises. And there’s no stuff going on. That’s not sure. It means only that there really is the knowing and the actual knowing that is not any more. It’s not any more a question. It’s also not any more. See before it was like, is this it? Wow, that was great. And then where is it? Right? And now that is not there anymore, right? There’s a simple knowing that who we are, is always here, it doesn’t mean that that’s the end of conditioning, it doesn’t mean that that’s the end of everything that arises.

Rick Archer: So I heard you describing a period, I think it might have been with mother Mira than when you were you’d be in bliss, for a period of days, maybe. And then you’d be in hell for a period of days and bliss and hell and bliss and health

Neelam: throughout the same day, you know.

Rick Archer: And you said, you know, eventually you got tired of that, and you felt you needed to find a teacher who could bring you out of that cycle, and you found Papaji. And that eventually happened. When it eventually did happen, was the awakening you experienced, substantially unique and different from the bliss period that you experienced with mother mirror? In other words, was it a whole different, whole different ballgame? It wasn’t just,

Neelam: and when you say I found Papaji, I would say Papaji found me or Satsang found me or you know the response of the you know, when when the desires chew on the inner, the the universe, or the consciousness responds to that, right? That’s how we find find the teacher, right, or the teacher finds us or whoever that works. So, yes, completely different. Because sitting in blissful states, there will be an end to it. And there will be a period when there wouldn’t be any blissful states. So they will be coming in and out of it. Right? It was like a Samadhi. State that was not yet the final Samadhi where there isn’t any more that coming out of it right. So there will be that blissful state and then there will be a suffering, right? And so now there is no coming out. Now there is no coming out of knowing there’s no, it doesn’t depend on the state to see there’s no there’s no dependent on is there bliss here? Or is there a pain here? Or is there challenges here? Or is there just, you know, blissful loving states here that doesn’t doesn’t match it that doesn’t touch it.

Rick Archer: So now you would not say that you’re in bliss all the time. But awakening is different than being in bliss all the time. That’s what you’re saying.

Neelam: It’s for sure, definitely.

Rick Archer: So you could be unhappy or angry or feeling sick or all kinds of, you know, things that we don’t usually consider to be blissful, but those don’t compromise the awakened state necessarily,

Neelam: We can say all the states arise in presence, and there’s always a challenge or or a chance to identify without, that is still always the possibility right? So there needs to be that real true vigilance. With that, however, that knowing of who I am, that’s not something that comes and goes right. That’s not something that happens you know, when when there’s everything is going well and then it happens, you know, that is not affected by whatever states arise. Yeah,

Rick Archer: yeah. And so by knowing who I am, you mean, whatever states are coming and going presence is like a continuum, and it’s just not affected or diminished by those states.

Neelam: Let’s do it right now. Rick, why don’t? Why can I ask you to just direct your attention towards your email? And I ask

Rick Archer: closing my eyes or just doing it, you can you can do however you

Neelam: want, close your eyes or open, it doesn’t matter to me. Okay, I’ll close my eyes. Yeah, just just direct your attention towards the inner, beautiful. Beautiful, and what do you know, in this moment? What do you know?

Rick Archer: Same presence as when my eyes are open, and my attention is directed outwards, but with more or less sensory input?

Neelam: Right, right, right, of course, of course. But the presence is not different, right? Correct. Yeah. And it doesn’t matter. Like, maybe now you feeling whatever you feeling because we are sitting and doing an interview, right? And maybe an hour from now you will be in a completely different state, because something will be going on in your life, right? Something different. And yet, when you direct your attention towards this, is it any different?

Rick Archer: No. And what I find is that you don’t really need maybe it made the difference in the early days. But after a while, you don’t really need to direct your attention to it any more than you need to direct your attention to breathing. And in fact, you know, thinking about it, or trying to put your attention on it doesn’t make it any more there than forgetting to think about it causes it to go away. It’s sort of like a solid thing.

Neelam: Exactly. And, and you know that I’m just reflecting back on what you said, was there a difference between the one I was, you know, sitting in place and suffering. And then after the awakening, and I remember the first time after that awakening experience, when I went to back to Satsang, with Papaji. And I walked into that Satsang. And I knew in this moment, you know, Papaji is me, everything is me, everything is just here. And as before it was this is me, and this is Papaji. And this is the thing that is going on here. And these are the people right? And now everything is just me, right? Everything is just me. And that’s just how it is, you know, there there is no, there is no separation.

Rick Archer: So after your awakening, then everything was in terms of the self, you could say exactly, exactly. And from then on, or was that just an initial taste, and then that kind of faded.

Neelam: And then on what what phase initially, there was this elation and blissful states with this experience that lasted maybe a couple of years. And that subsides too, but that knowing that everything is who we are, that’s always here. That doesn’t change.

Rick Archer: That’s interesting, because, in my experience, I feel that presence is very strong, but I don’t feel like I’ve totally gotten this thing of everything is me. And I’ve discussed this with some other people I’ve interviewed. Also, when I look at the tree, or look at my computer or something, I don’t sort of have that sense that I hear some people describing. So makes me wonder, you know,

Neelam: I hear you, I hear you and so so just just Can you Can we do one more time, close your eyes. And when you have your eyes closed, and you really direct your attention towards the inner, right? And when you hear my voice speaking right now, like, where’s that voice coming from?

Rick Archer: Well, it’s just in my own consciousness.

Neelam: It’s, it’s not coming from anywhere. So just for a moment, give that give the moment of attention to what you just said, it’s in your own consciousness. Yeah,

Rick Archer: and so is the tree and the car and

Neelam: everything really, truly is in your consciousness.

Rick Archer: I see that I understand that. But somehow I don’t interpret that as seeing things as me, you know what I mean?

Neelam: Because you’re still thinking about it to see if you if you using your mind and the concept of me and you and all that. So that’s why I had you close your eyes because then it’s easier. And I had you to just experientially see we have to go by experience. Just listen to your, to where that voice is coming from you instantaneously said it’s here. It’s in my consciousness,

Rick Archer: or the mayor’s presence. If I’m presence. Then it seems to me that when I look at a tree, I that the tree should be appreciated predominantly as presents. If that’s if the tree is me, then I’m not so sure I get that, you know, I don’t want to be disingenuous. In my own experience. I don’t want to hamper it by throwing in unnecessary doubts, but at the same time, I don’t want to I’ve always had this tendency to not want to claim anything that I don’t feel I’m really experiencing

Neelam: and that’s really good because otherwise we you know if If it’s false, then it’s not true. And it’s not this is not congruent, and that’s not right. But at the same time, you know, maybe because see the sensory experience, when we, when we engage two senses it takes over. So we have a habit of, and that’s the habit of still identifying with the body, right? When you have your eyes open, and you look at the tree, I’m looking at the plant here. And if you’re looking through your senses, you’re going to see you and it right. If you looking through that, knowing that you have within, see, if you go back to that knowing, I wonder what would happen if you just sit and there’s a tree and you would not engage, you know, the senses that want to interpret for you, this is me, this is the tree, that interpretation happens. So habitual, you don’t even know that it’s happening before, you know, your brain has relayed information to you. And you’re like, Yeah, well, that’s me, that’s the tree and whatever. But if you would listen with this deeper sense of, you know, presence or truth, I want there, what would be your experience,

Rick Archer: that’s interesting. And of course, you still have to use your senses. I mean, if you were blind, if I were blind, we wouldn’t see the plant or the tree, someone would have to tell us, it’s there. Unless we felt it with another sense, you know, or, or made some noise or something. So we still use our senses, but it gets you’re saying, and it correct me if I’m wrong, that there’s a kind of an a way of experiencing in which the senses are still functioning, but there’s something deeper that is perhaps more predominant, or as part of the mix there. Through which you are actually experiencing, it’s almost like the deeper level of what you are, is communing with the deeper level of what the tree is. And that’s how it’s known

Neelam: how it and you know it before, before thought, right, yeah, and know it before thinking you know, it before, you know, it’s an object, you know, and even a blind person, I would say, because I live in Allah, because of my sensitivities, I live with no electricity most of the time. So I live a lot in a dark, you see, and yet, in the dark, dark, you know, outer dark, right? And yet there is that sense of knowing and, and things, you know, that is prior to to thinking, right? It’s we know things, you know, we just, and the reason I’m saying I’m not trying to take anything away from your experience, but I’m just pointing to you that somewhere, without knowing you still really, you know, use the sensory as the guiding post is not that we are not to have the sensory, the sensory is important. In the very deep Samadhi, there is no sensory, but then the sensory is important when we are in the body. But what is it that you rely on? When you are in the inner? Right? Are you relying on your knowing? Or are you relying on the census, the census is still here doesn’t it’s not we are trying to deny or suppress, you know, but where does your attention

Rick Archer: go? I mean, if you’re really in or if you’re meditating or something, then your your senses are, as it says in the Gita turning within like a tortoise withdrawing its limbs. So you’re not really engaging them at all. And then but, of course, we can’t exist in that state all the time, we have to eat and earn a living and stuff. So we’re engaging our senses, but you just taught me something interesting that I don’t think I had really thought of, or at least not, it wasn’t kind of in the forefront of my understanding, which is that you begin to function in a way in which the sort of there’s something deeper than the senses, or perhaps it’s a subtle Realm of the Senses that begins to operate. And that begins to interact with objects of perception at their deeper level as well. And to appreciate the deeper level of the of the thing, rather than just what the gross surface perception has to offer. Is that correct? Right. Right.

Neelam: And what I’m saying is that in the awakening, that sense of you know, ground shift, yeah, now we are coming from a different ground, you see is not that the senses have to disappear. And, you know, they may disappear at moments and then they might appear back in moments. It doesn’t matter. It’s the bottom right. But what matters is that ground that we come from in this ground, everything is see everything is and everything. Same, same, same, no deflection, right. Different inform differently in appearance, but no different in the essence

Rick Archer: right now, still on the theme of awakening and what it is. And so I read a quote by a Zen master one point and he spoke about having had, you know, many, many awakenings over the years, some major some minor, and the analogy occurred to me of like education, someone could go to the first grade and study arithmetic, and he might say, Okay, I I’m doing mathematics. And he’s right. But he’s not doing what’s what, you know, a PhD student in mathematics is doing but both things are mathematics. And yet there’s been this sort of evolution of, of what they’re doing are now that’s, of course, just a metaphor. But in terms of awakening, can you honestly, can we honestly say that there, there could be an awakening. And it’s valid, and it’s legitimate, and it’s exactly what you’ve defined in terms of shifting one’s orientation to presence being the predominant identity. But then there could be, you know, numerous levels of deepening and clarification of that over time. But feel free to disagree if you do, because this is just

Neelam: Yeah, and first of all, you know, when we say many awakenings, then we have to define, because I remember having a lot of amazing experiences with this, that I could have called awakening, right? And back then maybe for a better lack of understanding, but luckily, I wasn’t very educated in the spiritual terminology, you see. So I didn’t have the points of reference to like, say, Well, this was said and this was not, but they were extreme states blissful, you know, beautiful, you know, expand that and, and I could have called that awakening. Because since this, there is no on in one sense, there is no change. There is no that is not going anywhere, right? What is that is not evolving in any way. Right? What is really evolving is the embodiment of that. What is really evolving is how that knowing informs everything that arises here. That’s what has changed, then I can say, from that time, if we look at time at whenever that happened to this time, there is a tremendous change in, in the in the embodiment of that there is a change in the in the actual experience of it. You know, here it is, that was it was like that before to

Rick Archer: let me pursue that a little bit more. So, no, I understand about embodiment, we will elaborate on that more, but no change in the actual experience of it. So does that mean that if again, we’re using a metaphor, if it were, if we compare it to a light, it’s not like the light is getting brighter and brighter and brighter, it’s still light, it’s not, you know, changing from one thing to another, it’s still light, but it’s getting brighter all the time. So would you say that your actual appreciation of presence is getting clearer, more profound or anything? Or is it just it is what it is?

Neelam: It’s just the truth is that should you know the children’s the truth, that is the truth, you know, so, so that the actual knowing that this is not this body, or this mind, or this, the senses that arise here? That has not changed?

Rick Archer: Okay? And when you say no, you don’t just mean an intellectual thing and an experiential thing experiential,

Neelam: that that hasn’t changed, right, that was there from that very moment. You know, it was that wow. And back then it was new. Now, it’s not new anymore, you know, it back then it was like, wow, and now it’s like, yeah, this normal Right, right. What has really changed though is you know, what has really changed is how that has penetrated through the levels of personality through the levels of you know, conditioning or or understanding you know, how deeply that has informed now, everything that arises here and how the expression see if I would look at you know, how I used to speak about it however, many years ago and how I speak about it, I now the expression has changed tremendously and there is no real reason for that changes, because there has been an interchange right there has been an inner willingness to just say okay, let me be here, let me just sit with what arises, let me not assume anything, let me not land in any spiritual understanding, let me not assume anything you know, from what I know already, right? Let me just see in a moment of over and over and over again right, can I be here can I be here is this is this issue is this that shoulder also can I also in this find truth and rest and and peace and quiet even when that arises is that is that true? Right. Let me not land anywhere let me not let in understanding let me not land in awakening, right. Let me not land in that either.

Rick Archer: So that that willingness has has made you cooperative so to speak and your you’ve been a willing patient lying still on the operating table while nature rearranges your brain.

Neelam: We can say a tie Cooperation types resisted.

Rick Archer: But ultimately, you have,

Neelam: what are the choices there? You know, once you know nothing See, see that the thing is once you know nothing is satisfying anymore, nothing can satisfy other than this knowing, right? It just really doesn’t.

Rick Archer: And I presume this is an ongoing process, like five years from now, 10 years from now, you might say to me, you know, remember when we did that thing back

Neelam: exactly? What’s going to happen? Yeah, of course, of course.

Rick Archer: So how about the word Enlightenment? I mean, in at least in terms of your use of that word? Is there any sort of ultimate end point to all this process? And we might reserve the word Enlightenment for that? Or would you use it just synonymously with awakening? And then probably in your understanding, there is no end point?

Neelam: You know, I would be very careful, because there is there is, there’s, there’s many different kinds of information about it out there, you know, so I’m very careful to not to use the word Enlightenment. And I’m rather, you know, using it one of the same as awakening, right, or are very close, you know, and, because that’s how Papaji used that, you know, he used it, he used the just, you know, as one thing that he wasn’t really, he wasn’t really speaking much about the differences, you know, even though I could say, there are some differences, right. But you know, what Ramana says, what is interesting, you know, what I read in a little obscure little book, you know, that the Ramana ashram has published a long time ago is that, you see, because once awakening or Enlightenment, whatever we have call it, it happens. There’s no volition, anymore. volition. So this is the edge of that movement, like, I want to know it, I want to get it, I want to understand that that’s the volition. Right? That’s, that’s the individual still looking for something searching, right? So there’s no volition, right? So there really isn’t any more, if that’s the true stage, right? There isn’t any more an individual looking for anything anymore. However, what he describes is that there are four or three other stages that happened, that happened, but they happen as, as a destiny of a particular individual, that there were different individuals on the planet, and then there are different individuals on the planet that can reach that, for example, stage of living in that turiya living in the fourth stage, you know, where there is just no memory, and there is no time. And there is no you know, and this there is that that much greater, you know, knowing of or transcending of this individual kind of experience, but that doesn’t happen by desire, you see, that happens of its own, right? If that was the destiny of the individual. So, so he says that he says they are three other stages, but they are not reached by wanting, you can’t reach them, you know, because you you sit here and think, Well, I, like you know, I would like this.

Rick Archer: So if it’s your destiny, or your dharma or the way you happen to be wired, then maybe you will reach them. Is that what you’re saying?

Neelam: Exactly. So what happened for me a long time ago, you see what happened from a long, long time ago was I you know, everything fell away and that any interest in anything other than being here fell away. So, they stopped to be interested in what is this and what is that? And what kind of stage Am I in? And is this this? Or is that that and how does that measure on the scale or or all of that which in the beginning, still as a as an imprint was still functional? You see, there was still some time some years, you know, that was functional, like Yeah, awakening, sure, yeah. Awakening and just you know, and then it that fell away to, you see,

Rick Archer: and yet you’ve devoted your life to spirituality and to teaching spirituality. And so obviously, this still is your most ardent interest.

Neelam: When I sit when I say it fell away, what fell away was needing to know anything,

Rick Archer: or be certain about anything,

Neelam: or, or, or anything, because what is here in a moment, you in the moment, either you will address and knowing your true nature, or suffering. There’s only these two options. So if you really, you know, in my experience, if you really want to just be very, very, very, very clear and very adamant about where are you at, that’s all that matters. You Who’s going to measure that? What’s the measurement? Who’s interested, you know, who? Who needs to know, are we here? Or are we there? Or what is the state or, you know, you know, that was still there a little bit as a as a construct as a structure, you know, and that fell away naturally, the interest became only can I be here?

Rick Archer: And yeah, as a teacher, I’ve heard you give nice talks for half hour, 45 minutes at a stretch about some particular topic, and You sound very knowledgeable. So you do have, you do know things. And you impart that knowledge as a teacher.

Neelam: You know, at some point, what I realized is because in the beginning, when I was teaching, I was just sharing the direct experience. And I couldn’t really even speak much back then. Because see, there was not much integration between that awakened state and the body mind, you know, the brain wouldn’t function, there wouldn’t be any, you know, words that would come. Right. So So, and after a while, though, I realized that, you know, what, the knowing of the direct experience of presence is not not as not necessarily everything that my students need to know. There’s a difference there, right? Like, I don’t live in that, you know, you know, thinking about that, right. And yet, when I come to teach, I recognize, oh, that knowledge needs to be, or verbalized in some way that in an experience needs to be shared in some way that, you know, understanding of what’s happening has to be somehow explained to others, right? But it’s not necessarily, you know, like, what I’m trying to say is that when I live my life, moment by moment, there isn’t really any kind of reflection of like, who am I? And why am I like this? And what’s, you know what I mean? Like, that kind of doesn’t happen.

Rick Archer: Yeah, that would just be a lot of mental agitation.

Neelam: That’s just natural, just being here.

Rick Archer: Yeah. And, of course, I mean, again, it may, it might relate back to how we’re wired, because there have been a number of great sages who have been really erudite and written, like Shankar or written these long, complicated things. And that was, that was his forte, that was his skill.

Neelam: Exactly. And in a way, I see that, you know, the challenge of my health has brought a certain, you know, a certain opportunity with it, right. Because not not being able to travel not being able to see people in person not being able to do the things that I used to do, there was a lot of deepening in the real, true understanding of what it means moment by moment, you know, can I be here, and how to work with what arises here, and how to understand the body, the nervous system, the brain more to really help it to, to, to to be able to come to rest, right? So there has been a lot of deep learning and from it, see, that’s what you are listening to you right? hours and hours and hours. From it, there have been a lot of different topics that would arise here, and a lot of different things they would arise to speak about and to share, right, which really are the result of justice in the process, though, I’m trying to say you see, it’s a result of what’s going on on the inner right. And then it wants to express itself and it wants to share it with others to to say, hey, you know, this is we need to look at that. Right? Isn’t that interesting?

Rick Archer: Yeah. That’s an interesting phenomena. And actually, it seems like, people go through all sorts of things. And, and even though those things might not be something we would request, or, you know, hope for because they’re difficult, but they all end up being part of our toolkit, you know, and if we ended up becoming a teacher, a lot of people I’ve spoken to, they say that they don’t regret a single thing. You know, like, for instance, Adyashanti, was on Oprah the other day. And he said, he went through a period of life after his initial awakening, which was really held for about five years. But he said he wouldn’t change a thing because it sort of endowed him with certain capabilities as a result of those experiences.

Neelam: Exactly. And we never know, you know, so that’s why that’s why I don’t try to analyze, you know what I met, I’m just like, okay, here I am. Here it is. Can we be here at that? Well, we can do.

Rick Archer: So another thing, I’m interested in about presence, like you were mentioning Adyashanti, for instance, he had an experience similar to yours, where he, he was sitting at a bus stop, and he said, I just want to know the truth. And I don’t care. Exactly what what happens to me. It could be hell, it could be heaven. I just want to know it, bring it on. And sure enough, it came on. And you said kind of a similar thing. And what I find interesting about that is that it is almost as if somebody’s listening, you know that intelligence which is governing the universe is you know, seek and you shall find it’s sort of like if we reach out from our side with that sincere intention, we get a response. Maybe you can respond to that. Now, I’ll ask another question about it.

Neelam: You know that because the the teacher is the inner, the true teacher is the inner however, if we could fully surrender into what we know, when they ain’t there, then we wouldn’t know, we wouldn’t need an outer teacher. Right. But most of us, most of us, you know, they are examples, you know, Ramona, they’re in Ghana, right? We don’t know what it means done. Also, I don’t want to put labels but you know, no, no human teacher, right. And most of us don’t don’t fully know how to surrender to the inner lead to the work that inner is telling us is true, right. So the way consciousness responses when there’s true desire for freedom, it will respond, it will respond by bringing us in touch with the teacher. Yeah. And it will respond by bringing us in touch with the teacher, who can speak to us in the words that we understand.

Rick Archer: The teacher may be a human teacher, or it may be a disease, or it may be whatever we need, it seems whatever it is,

Neelam: whatever it is, that helps us to, to trust, that inner experience, whatever helps us to choose.

Rick Archer: But, to me, the the fascinating implication of that, is that, you know, presence is not just some merely some kind of, I don’t know, just some it’s not. It has intelligence to it, it’s, it’s responsive. It’s, it’s, you know, if we look deeply enough into what we mean, when we say the word presence, I mean, think of think of your thumb, and what’s actually going on in there on the molecular level, the biological level, the atomic level, there’s this incredible, you know, World of intricate interactions and things going on, also orderly and intelligent in their in their functioning. It to me that’s it begins to speak of God, you know, that, that presidents

Neelam: we can say what power is that? Right? Yeah, so we can call it you know, there’s many ways to call it right. Presence, consciousness, space God, right, even though I don’t really relate to God as a person,

Rick Archer: or not an isolated person, but sense, you know, just

Neelam: the force, right? Well, what because what, what power is that? You know, what power is anything? Right?

Rick Archer: Yeah. It’s amazing. If you think about it. I mean, you know, presidents, I mean, some people you hear the word presidents, Eckhart Tolle talks about the now and you just think of this sort of dumb, massive being or presence with no, it could evoke that kind of understanding. But if you actually think about what’s actually going on, and everything you see and everything that’s within them without you, there’s this infinitely awesome orchestra taking places. That’s, I think, fascinating, and that, when you say things, like, you know, you have a desire, and then and then presents responds by giving you this experience or bringing you this teacher or something. It always reminds me of that, that, that we’re not talking about some, some kind of mechanistic thing or mere sort of being, we’re talking about a sentient, maybe an omnipresent sentience, but and then a vast intelligence that we seem to be just immersed in, that pervades everything, for sure. I’m talking a bit too much, but I That’s good. It’s good. You need to that particular point just kind of intrigues me and I enjoyed bouncing it off people that I interviewed. How they feel about that?

Neelam: Sure, sure. Sure. Sure. Yeah.

Rick Archer: I mean, have you found, for instance, you’ve talked about of since your awakening, you’ve been the embodiment has progressed through many, many stages. Have you found a dawning of kind of a deeper sense of devotion or expansion of the heart, for instance, Ramana had his awakening and then he spent his life devoted to the, the intelligence that that was embodied and Arunachala and many other spiritual people have, you know, it’s seems that like Adyashanti, again, he had his initial awakening. And then over time, he just began to be fascinated with the person of Jesus. And he felt that Zen he actually said in that interview that Zen seemed kind of lacking in love, lacking in qualities of the heart and and it didn’t satisfy him because he felt his own heart was blossoming after his awakening. So has that been a dimension of your experience since your initial awakening and the embodiment you referred to as it had to do With growth of the heart,

Neelam: you know, I would say it really, if we call it the heart, then I would say it really is a continuous embracing or meeting of everything as it is. And it’s really allowing for everything, because you see what I’m interested in lately, you know, as I’m speaking with, with students, because otherwise, you know, it’s just my inner ride experience, what I’m interested in is how does the impulse that arise in presence? How does that translate itself itself into action? In our experience, and what are all the different other things that get involved in our past our conditioning, our you know, whatever, whatever we think, whatever we believe, whatever we, you know, think this is good, or this is bad, or it should be here, or it shouldn’t be here. Right? So a lot of the work that I do, sitting myself and sitting with students is a work of, you know, what is present? Can I be present to that? Is that okay? Also, is when this particular state arises, because when we have expanded states, that’s easy. What about if we have difficult states? What about if we have pain? What about if we have anger? What about if we have frustration? What about if we want to go and kill somebody? Right? What about, you know, things, all sorts of things arise? Is? Is that okay? Can we really be here? So if so, you know it because that’s what I consider love, you know, is, is really that because love is natural, right? It’s a natural quality that is already here. Most of the time, we don’t know that it’s here. Because we are engaged with what arises. Right? We are engaged with the motivation of the past, right? So for me that interest is when when you say, you know, the heart was blossoming. For me, it’s like, everything is included. Yeah. Can I be with this tool? Can Is that okay? But not just okay. You know, when I’m sitting in meditation, right? Which is like, great, everything is okay. Right? But is this okay? When somebody you know, is angry with you? Is this okay? When you have a challenging interaction with somebody? Is this still okay? When, you know, the events in the world happened that are happening, right? Is it still okay? When you know, the climate change that we are dealing with and the effects of that? Is that still okay, then see, does that have place? And does what arise here in response to that? Is that okay? Also?

Rick Archer: Okay, now, you just weren’t used the word Okay? About 20 times, so we better talk about what we really mean by okay. So when you say, Okay, are you do you mean that you can take it in stride? You can accept it as it is without arguing with reality? Is that what you mean by okay?

Neelam: Yes, yes. That’s what I mean. That’s what I mean. And what I mean, again, is that when you go right now to the inner, and in this moment, is everything okay? The way it is?

Rick Archer: Yeah. Yeah. Sounds very much like Byron Katie, the way she teaches, you know, she’s,

Neelam: well, it’s the natural state, right, we can have many ways of wording to see, the reason why I like to use the word okayness is because, you know, when we are quiet, it’s all obvious, right? When, let’s say you get extremely aggravated, you know, with in your relationship, and you’re going through the big drama internally, right. And so, if we really work with okayness, but really not mental concept, and you would ask yourself, is what is present right now, okay?

Rick Archer: And if you really are established in accepting what is as, okay, would you really take a very oppositional position in a relationship or in some other situation? In other words, would you stir up as much drama, as somebody who is not accustomed to seeing everything is okay, and this person is wrong, and that idea is wrong. They’re in opposition to things. It’s even

Neelam: deeper than that. Because, first, you know, when we go into relating, we first need to recognize that okayness is true for everything. Yeah. Is the ground of your experience is the ground of your partner’s experiences the ground of the experience of everything in the world. So when we use okayness, as a as an inquiry, when we ask ourselves is something okay? We are not in there and saying, Where am I at right now? Am I really in the truth of what I know? Am I really resting in the okayness of everything that says, or am I engaging in drama, right? And so first, you know, rather than trying to To be anywhere I use this question of okayness. So, you know, the answer is yes or no. And if it’s a yes, right or wrong, let’s be here. If it’s a no, we have to clarify our relationship with what is because otherwise, we can process what is forever. And we are never going to get satisfied because that’s stuff can’t be satisfied, the story can’t be satisfied, right. But if we come back to the sense of, if we come back to the sense of true, real, inner okayness, that will be the beginning of our inquiry, right? And then we come back to that. And now that doesn’t mean, though, and this is why the translation is so important, that doesn’t mean that you’re not going to go back to your partner and say, what you just did was not okay. See,

Rick Archer: you may say that, but it seems like there would be a different quality to it, then if you were not established in, in presence. You know, it’s like, you know, there’s so many people who are so contentious these days, the Republicans hate the Democrats, the Democrats hate the Republicans. And, you know, that there’s there’s all the Israelis and the Palestinians. I mean, it seems that if all these people were really established in a deep sense of abiding presence, that there might still be differences of opinion and philosophy, and you know, and all, but there wouldn’t be this rancor and bitterness and outright warfare as a result of these sorts of differences.

Neelam: And even if they were not established, if they were willing to see rather than always looking out there, if they were willing to for a moment look within and see am I actually addressed right? This experience here really knowing that everything is okay, the way it is right, or resting in presence, or whatever we call it, if there was a willingness to do that, you see, what I see in the world more is because there are so many changes happening. First of all, there’s billions of people on the planet, that’s a huge humongous collective consciousness, right? That means a huge amount of tendencies. A huge amount of tendencies that come to be experienced, right? That itself affects the planet, the consciousness tremendously, then we have the huge changes of the climate change, there’s a huge, deep change going on for so many years already, that only now, it becomes, you know, like more common knowledge, right? Meaning now everybody’s talking about it. And many years ago, only a few are talking about it, right? So it’s much more visible. But this, these changes affect us. The human body is affected by it. You see, I don’t know if you notice, but there’s so much more conflict on the planet right now, first of all, because there’s so many more, as I say, so many billions of people, but also we are affected by all these changes that are going on. See this little nervous system, this little brain, you know, that all that is all connected, it’s all interconnected, there’s no separation. And so there’s there is more, you know, tension because of that, right? It’s not

Rick Archer: hard to say if there’s more conflict, I don’t know, I’d have to ask in a story. And we’re not in the middle of World War Two, or, or anything like that. We’re not burning witches on the town square, there’s a lot of things that have improved, but there’s definitely a lot of strife and a lot of, you know, seemingly irreconcilable differences among people. And it seems to me that you know, this bit more even a little bit more introspection, if not, a deep diving into presence is the the antidote.

Neelam: But this is you know why I said so many billions of human beings on the planet, so many tendencies present. The tendency is come here to be cleared. Most of the people the grace of the 7 billion or however many billions already there are is not interested in that.

Rick Archer: What did you mean by that? Just now, the tendency is come here to be cleared to be experienced?

Neelam: By whom? Wow, well, why? Why would there be even birth in the human body? Why would there be even birth? Right? Why would consciousness need to incarnate into any body because we are in a human body? But look, there’s there’s billions of other beings right on the planet, right?

Rick Archer: And billions of other planets, right, exactly.

Neelam: So so so why would even incarnation be happening, right? What is incarnation incarnation is tendencies. What are tendencies tendencies is that the postponement of being here, tendencies, the idea that there will be a time in the future, that we will get to experience something that we don’t have right now. And therefore, we have to keep going, right? Consciousness has to keep going looking for these experiences, right? Because if it looks for these experiences, then eventually there’s going to be this time that it’s going to be this perfect experience of something right. And we get this moment we get a second of it, and then it’s like what the So I have it, okay, looking for the next one. So these are tendencies. And we can say, if you and I are talking here sitting in this interview, and whoever is watching the predominant on the tendency would be the tendency for freedom, because otherwise we wouldn’t be here talking about it. Exactly. However, there are other imprints that have not been cleared, right, that brought us into the human body. And why why? Being why? To know our true nature, right. But here’s also the time to meet the past, to not to perpetuate anymore to not to go through another cycle of there is going to be an experience out there sometime somewhere, that is going to be better than what is here.

Rick Archer: In that we just said, in listening to talks,

Neelam: I’m sorry, maybe it’s twice, you

Rick Archer: No, it’s good, I’m trying to think of is there about five different ways I could go with this. But the, you know, so you’ve alluded to reincarnation just now, and I heard you talk about it in your talks. And it makes a lot of sense to me that as a, as a soul, we go through many, many, many lives experiencing different things. And you also alluded to just now to what I would call a sort of an evolutionary impulse that it’s at the heart of everything. And that really is probably at the heart of creation itself, that without which we wouldn’t have a creation, we wouldn’t have stars forming and eventually exploding and forming heavier elements which form our bodies, I’m sure you know, that, that everything in our body was once part of a star. So this is sort of how did that happen, it didn’t happen randomly or by like little billiard balls running into each other. So there’s this kind of evolution toward greater and greater complexity, greater expression, of forms, capable of, or evolution of forms capable of experiencing, being experiencing consciousness capable of having the intelligence which governs the universe experience itself, with greater clarity and embodying that with to greater and greater degrees. So it almost Sometimes people put the emphasis on, you know, we have all these tendencies, we’re on this cycle, we’re on this Wheel of Karma, we want to get off and just end the whole thing. But But and maybe that’s a valid perspective. But isn’t there also, I mean, can’t we give God some credit for having created or universe, the universe for a purpose, and that purpose, meaning being to bring into existence to beings like you and I, who can have a conversation like this about something which we can actually experience? For it is a far cry from what it was before the Big Bang.

Neelam: But but we know, we have to start in the beginning with, you know, when we are really truly addressed. Where is the universe? What is the universe? In our experience? When we are truly in peace? Why don’t you just do that again, right? Let’s just forget, you know, when we are in the moment, you’re sitting quietly, and you direct your attention towards your inner, beautiful, then where is the universe, right? Or what is it?

Rick Archer: In my experience, it’s less active, although I have a brain, which is enabling me to have that experience and that brain, there’s trillions of cells doing things in that brain,

Neelam: to the human body, and then we go into the perceptions and all that. But when we sit in the real deep truth, you know, then we know that, you know, universe arises in presence. Yes. So even though we have to talk in this dualistic way, and I talk in this way, too, because if I want to explain certain things, like if I want to help my students to direct their attention towards tendencies that oftentimes remain invisible tendencies that bring us here, and we kind of have a blind spot and avoidance of like, Whoa, let’s not go there. And that eventually is a seed that would need to continue in some way, right? So I need to be able to speak in these in these dual ways. And yet, when we look at you know, like, when we sit truly, truly in presence, then we can see what universe arises in presence, right? So it’s an experience that we are having, right? And the and the and the, you know, consciousness is having an experience of this, you know, consciousness is having an experience of being in a body consciousness is having an experience of having a conversation with you. How consciousness is having an experience of billions of humans being on the planet right now struggling with whatever they’re struggling with, right. So, so we need to keep it in that perspective. You know, because as I see it, if we take the universe as just it, the entity that exists on its own independently, then we are missing a little bit that you know, it’s it arises it’s here as an experience.

Rick Archer: Exactly. And it’s here as a mechanism through which the through which consciousness can experience itself.

Neelam: And through which consciousness can reach through them, retreat them. Exactly. Because there’s a reason why, you know, we are here, why we are going through what we are going through and why we have to go through it and why we say, Well, why is this happening to me? Or why is this happening to this person? Why is this going on? And there’s, you know, there’s a reason to that, as long as we can see it as, oh, that’s what it is, can I be here? Other than, Oh, my God, why is this happening? Or I wish it wasn’t here.

Rick Archer: It’s funny, because he can kind of swing back and forth from seeing it from an individual perspective, or seeing it from the perspective of, you know, the universal consciousness. And, and from that perspective, how could consciousness ever have not been free? You know, exactly. From the individual perspective, that seems like something we want to get to, you know,

Neelam: and yet it doesn’t know it, you see, because it’s tendencies that are here. These are like little seeds that believe themselves to be something other than what they are. Yeah, this is you now we need to, you know, that it needs to know itself, right? It needs to know.

Rick Archer: Just looking up, there’s this great TS Eliot quote, he says, in a minute. And that finding it right now, but there’s something about the journey, you know, we go through this whole rigmarole. And we come back to where we started and know the place for the first time. Right. Okay, but when you talk about tendencies, I kind of took it to a metaphysical level. But when you when you’re talking about tendencies, you’re talking about Vasanas impressions, ingrained ways of behavior that keep us kind of constricted,

Neelam: exactly what that keep us because what a tendency is, as I said, is a postponement, right? Is a postponement of being present with what is. And that postponement has been going on for a really long time. So it has been here before this life, and that’s the only reason why I talk about it, because otherwise, we wouldn’t even be in this life. If there were not certain impressions that are still drawing us into this experience, right? There wouldn’t even be that experience. Why right? Well, the mean necessary.

Rick Archer: And we are repositories of many such impressions, right? Were just bundles of them. And, and so it’s not like, we should want anyone to feel guilty if they, you know, are drawn outward, and or don’t appreciate, you know, presence fully in this moment, because a lot of this stuff, you know, we’re so wired from so many lifetimes of impressions, that that that’s going to tend to keep happening.

Neelam: Exactly. And that’s why my interest is so closely on the in there, you know, where am I at? am I addressed? Or am I suffering? Because when the tendency arises, it’s usually so habitual and so familiar that it feels like me, right? It’s like who you are. And before you know you are acting on it, you are engaged. And that engagement recharges that tendency reinforces, enforces, it makes it stronger. So yeah,

Rick Archer: okay, so you’re saying that by kind of catching it, and coming back to the self, we can say coming back to presence, you take the steam out of it, you you

Neelam: and then you finish it, exactly catching it and being first of all, being aware that that’s a tendency. Rather than you see even even people who have had deep awakening. I know a lot of people and I talk to a lot of friends, there’s we still have the nervous system and the brain and all that. And there’s still tendencies here. And so so so, so even there can be still a misunderstanding, right? When something arises, it can feel like so like natural, but it really isn’t. Right? It’s just the past, right? So so first, so first of all, we need to really, you know, go go back and even know that this is the past, right? But then the reason why we are born in the human body, I’m sure you know, you heard many times, that is one of the prerequisites for freedom. Why would that be right? Because first of all, we have that intelligence, which can be so much trouble, right? But it also gives us that self reflection, like so many times today is that okay? Just go and look on the inner, right. So it gives you the capacity to, to go and look right into our true nature, first of all, but it also gives us a nervous system in the brain. And so when the past arises, one of the reasons that it hasn’t been finished, is that it hasn’t been experienced. And so now we have a nervous system in the brain that can do that. So when the tendency of the past arises, and if we can recognize it for what it is, rather than engaging it, we can say okay, Can I be here? And what can I be here means It means Can I really allow the full experience of it in this body? Without engaging it without suppressing it? But can I allow it to really run through? That’s part of the reason why we are born in a human body. Canada really be present the, you know, the excitement of it, the shakiness of it the fear of the whatever that is, can that content that was holding it in this, you know, seed, right? Can that content fully come and just be here? And can it be experienced? And can it be, then recognize, like, oh, there was just, you know, an infant, there was just an energy that moved through, that’s all it was, right? Because when it’s recognized for what it really is, which is in its essence, everything is our true nature, then it doesn’t have to keep doing this thing over and over and over again. And sometimes I’m sorry, but sometimes we have to do that over and over and over and over again, until the charge of it, which we don’t know how long it has been here, maybe millions of years, it has been repeating itself, right. You don’t know that charge until the charge really diminishes. And that’s done, you see, then it doesn’t have to continue.

Rick Archer: Sure to some organist think in terms of conditioning, you know, I mean, even Pavlov, you know, this, just basically we’re, we’re habitual creatures, things get deeply ingrained. And whether it’s, you know, and you can take extreme examples, such as drug addiction, or, you know, behavioral tendencies. Let’s take an example. Like, for instance, maybe have a tendency to get angry at people, and how most people, you know, many people will just react blindly, without, without thinking without self reflection, get angry, when the impulse arises, what you’re saying, Well, let you say what you’re saying, how would you recommend doing it differently?

Neelam: Well, well, first of all, you know, when I say tendency, I mean, there’s something prior to our dislike experience. So when when the bar when we come into this bar, there’s already

Rick Archer: tendencies. So there could be new tendencies that were formed in this life,

Neelam: right? Where we say, you know, the baby’s so innocent, that’s sure. And it wouldn’t be here, if there wasn’t something in our past pushing it into this, right, right. So the tendencies are already here, right? They are not just, and yet they reinforce themselves through throughout of this life experience. So because of certain tendencies will be already drowned into certain situations in this life, which will reinforce that tendency

Rick Archer: to take a particular example, whether the one I just brought up getting angry at people or some other one, if you’d like to choose it, and maybe let’s draw a contrast between how people ordinarily would do it and reinforce it, or how you would recommend dealing with it, so as to unreinforced it

Neelam: and to take it more into the practical level. And that’s a little, you know, that’s a little higher up than just kind of understanding how it all works. But let’s just take it there. Okay. So on the practical level, for that, you know, reaction from anger to be there. There had to be somewhere we don’t know when a prior movement away from our true nature. Because when we are addressed in our true nature, it will be rare that we would react, because anger is natural to and sometimes anger is important, right? It’s an expression, but it will be rare that will just react from anger. Right? So that means that movement away has already happened somewhere. So when somebody is really actually angry, you know, has a lot of reactivity from anger, I would say, Okay, let’s slow it down. Right? Let’s notice it as an experience in your body. That sense it for a moment, it’s come out of the thinking about that, you know, let’s kind of drop that. Let’s bring it back to the sensory and let’s just kind of notice it as an experience. Let’s just say is it okay for it to be here, right? Somebody would say yes or no. And then we can, okay, depending on what it is we would sit with it in a certain particular way.

Rick Archer: And so when you say okay, it means that rather than pick up the phone and yell at so and so you’re asking them to kind of put their attention more within and maybe feel the physiology or some kind of impulse that that spurring them to that kind of action.

Neelam: And I’m asking also them to to ask themselves, is it okay that this impulse is present right now? Are they okay with it or not? And then we just do it a little inquiry. Let me just explain this. We just sit with it for a while until something shifts and they come back to rest And when they come back to us, then they regain perspective. And then they go like, oh, oh, there’s other options. It doesn’t just have to be, you know, screaming, right. This other options. Okay. Okay. Right. Regain perspective because we came back to rest, right? Yeah.

Rick Archer: So So you’re saying that there’s a cycle, action, impression desire, we perform an action and creates an impression that gives plants the seeds of future desires, which gives rise to another impression, another action and so on. And what you’re saying is nip it in the bud. And rather than perpetuate this cycle, break the cycle by just coming back to kind of a self referral, self awareness kind of thing, feeling the sensation if it’s there, and you know, not necessarily acting, you know, reflexively,

Neelam: exactly, but not suppressing it either. Not suppressing it, but maybe experiencing the heat of it, the challenge of it, the emotion of it, how it manifests in the body, that’s heaven. Let’s have the sensation, we don’t want to suppress it, but we want to really experience it to go like, Oh, okay, we can be here, you see, that movement doesn’t have to take our attention away from

Rick Archer: Yeah. And it sounds like feeling it like that would actually produce the physiological change necessary to sort of eliminate that impression in the brain and the nervous system,

Neelam: exactly. It will change the pathway in the brain over time to change the pathway. And it would really, as you say, you know, to eliminate it over time as an impression, and you wouldn’t be there. But let’s say in that case, I would go even deeper, and I was, how come somebody so reactive? What is the experience of the past that made them saw that they can’t be here?

Rick Archer: Well, you’re not asking them to go back to a past life and realize that they were mistreated or something like that, you’re

Neelam: well, well, you know, I’m not asking them to go anywhere. But I’m I’m saying, you know, if they were experiences in the past, this past current class or other class that resulted in a certain unresolved charge, that is still present, then that charge is what we want to meet.

Rick Archer: without necessarily knowing the specifics of those experiences and

Neelam: how the specifics about sometimes the specifics come up. That’s okay. But that’s not what we are looking for. We are just looking to see like, oh, there’s this charge, and that charge has been here for a really long time ago. And what anything touches that charge, delicate touch, there’s like, right, the reactivity happens. So that reactivity is almost a secondary pattern, right? Because the primary is, there’s something I can’t be with. There’s something I had to and I personalized. I mean, I say I because I don’t know how to say it. Otherwise, there’s something we couldn’t be here with before.

Rick Archer: In your own experience, when you first started doing this after your awakening, was there like a whole shitload genes, that expression of stuff that was coming on fast and furious that you had to deal with, and then it gradually diminished over time, and now it’s kind of tapered off to a trickle, or has there been a pretty consistent, you know, momentum,

Neelam: in the beginning, there was a very spontaneous natural juice arising and things will just turn over bumps by itself. And then eventually, after some period of time, I don’t remember, you know, the specifics of time, but it hit on some kind of resistance. See, there was some inner resistance, and there was for a moment, luckily, just for a moment, some sense of wanting to identify with the awakened state, rather than being present orders. And luckily, that has, you know, been seen very, very quickly. But what was missing in my personal, you know, experience was something that I call tenderness. There was a lot of, you know, just coming from my conditioning, there was a lot of harshness about being with certain states. And then there was a certain level of arrogance from that awakeness to that just thought, like, whatever, this is not important, you know, we don’t have to be here. I will, you know, What’s this nonsense, you know, let’s not just not mess with it, right? But there was there was that tenderness missing of just okay, this is what’s here, can I be here? And eventually there was that shift, and you know, because I remember back then dealing with some physical challenges, and I remember suddenly going, like, wait a minute, let me just be here. And then suddenly realizing, whoa, this is just, you know, this is the way to go because in being here, that’s what eventually relaxes, what is here and then eventually, you know, that will When we really come back to last, everything begins to orientate by that, you know, everything goes like, oh, yeah, that’s great. My condition. That’s wonderful, you know. So

Rick Archer: that’s interesting. So it kind of sounds like, you know, once that awakening occurred, then a lot of rearrangement needed to take place. And in your experience, you know, there was this tendency of arrogance, or harshness, or whatever. But that was that stuff was coming to your awareness to your attention, because it needed to be swept out and needed to be resolved.

Neelam: It needed to be seen for what it is, rather than just perpetuate,

Rick Archer: might have been there before they wait a minute, you might have been blind to it or something.

Neelam: Of course, of course, I’m sure there was, I’m sure it was, I’m sure it was. And then on top of it, it became maybe a little bit of a spiritual condition in which, by the way, so much of it out there, you know, conditioning related to like, what we think is spiritual and how it’s supposed to be and rather than the to be with what is here.

Rick Archer: Yeah, yeah, you talked a lot in your recordings about authenticity, and that what you just said, reminds me of that of an my interpretation or impression of authenticity is just, you know, not not mood making, I mean, not sort of, clinging to an attitude, or a belief or just some, like trying to take refuge in some sort of spiritual mindset. But just being genuinely what you are trying to gloss over it in any way.

Neelam: Yeah. And is the inner that shoe knowing on the inner and the outer, the expression, is it congruent? Yeah. Is there congruence between the real knowing of what we know? And then how does that translate when you talk to your friend? How does it translate when you’re with your spouse or your partner? How does that translate when you’re with your children? How does it translate when you’re interacting with the world? Is there still is it still congruent? Or is it just, I know the truth? And then, you know, something else happens on this action? Right?

Rick Archer: Do you walk your talk? Exactly. A lot of times when you were talking, I was reminded of, you know, like the touted chain, which talks about being in tune with the Dow, you know, and it even talks about rulers ruling countries, if they’re in tune with the Dow and how, how smoothly and in tune with in tune with nature really are the gateway, you know, action in accordance with dharma, that if we’re sort of isolated in constricted individual consciousness, without an appreciation of that sort of deeper, more universal value, then we’re just kind of kicking around with very partial understanding and appreciation of things and making a mess, you know, but if a lot of what you said reminded me of those principles of just acting from a settled state, settled in presence, and then who’s really the actor, then there’s a saying Brahman Brahman is the charioteer.

Neelam: Yeah. And also recognizing, though, that when that action really is based on our past, to the difference you see, and if necessary, do what is needed, which is inquiry. And if necessary, make amendments in the world if that action has harmed anything for anybody in some way. And really, so So that brings everything into congruence. And see, it’s not it’s not about perfect, right? Because we can also think, like, what’s the perfect stage? You know, and nothing ever goes wrong? You know, but no, you know, we are all just in the learning experience. Right? So if we recognize later on, oh, man, this was just my reactivity. You know, can I make a min amendments with for that? Because that’s what brings the inner and the outer into congruence, right?

Rick Archer: Yeah. I’m reminded of your fellow Papaji disciple, Andrew Koan, whom I’ve interviewed and, you know, there was a lot of controversy around him. And in about a year ago, or six months ago, he he just decided to stop teaching, and completely do a self inventory. And he’s calling up people individually and apologizing for things he’s done. And all there’s this, you know, and he had had a very profound awakening, but there was, I think, perhaps he would admit any, even mentioning him because he’d been very public about this, but he would admit that there was still a lot of conditioning governing his behavior. And, you know, a lot of people got kind of upset and disillusioned when he made this turn of heart and a friend of mine who has been with him for years felt like oh, he’s just pulled the rug out under me, but my initial reaction was right on Andrew, that’s fantastic. You know, what, what a revolutionary step.

Neelam: Isn’t that great? That’s how, you know that’s that’s the you know, that’s what’s new. That’s right. That’s beautiful.

Rick Archer: Yeah, it’s like he deserves congratulation for coming to the realization that that was necessary and for you know, for trying to make Make amends, as you say, exactly beautifully a few years ago from now, maybe you’ll come back as a teacher, but he’ll be a much better one without all that.

Neelam: So you know, who knows, right? But at least there’s the tiny little recognition and that stepping into like, Oh, that’s not enough. You see, it’s not enough to just know it and to know it in a certain way. That’s not enough. You see, something else needed to see, embodiment, housecleaning, exactly. congruence, congruence, something is needed.

Rick Archer: So it almost seems like a person is not going to bail, maybe maybe a person couldn’t go on for a whole lifetime, you know, acting inappropriately after awakening has done, but I get the impression that you’re not going to be allowed to do that, in most cases, it’s eventually going to crack through you.

Neelam: Or something is going to something’s gonna happen, or the people around you are finally going to say, You got to be kidding. Right. Right. Exactly. Not, you know,

Rick Archer: yeah. And do you think there are any people who eventually reach a point at which there is really little or nothing left to process that they’ve really worked out? All the Vasanas?

Neelam: You know, I don’t know that.

Rick Archer: Do you think Papaji was that way?

Neelam: You know, I wouldn’t comment on that.

Rick Archer: I don’t know, hard to judge.

Neelam: And I would say what we know, when we talk about Papaji is Papaji would say somebody asked him Papaji Do you still need to be vigilant. And he would say with every breath. Because he says you never know you never know, you know, when something can arise, you know, you just never know, you see, and you have to be vigilant. There are also stories of Ramana and his disciples and Ramana. You know, when they were dying in the process of dying, Ramana would sit with them and hold one hand on the heart and one on the head. He says so that the Vasanas can’t escape so that it’s met here. And he said he was successful with one, but he was not successful with the other because his attention moved. And the Vasanas escaped, and it just went to another birth. Right. Interesting. So you know, so it’s like, well, you know, you know, like, see, that’s what I mean, when I said in the beginning, I’m just not thinking like that, what I’m really more interested in, where am I? Where’s my attention? Am I addressed? Or am I suffering? Each moment? exactly what’s going on? Yeah,

Rick Archer: yeah, I know, you advocate taking a certain amount of time to just be in silence each day, either some sort of meditation or just sitting in silence, you want to elaborate a bit on the importance of that,

Neelam: you know, this, this to this two or three different things, I really recommend one, as you know, we need a quiet time for self reflection. And just, you know, coming back to this, right, the life is very engaging, and oftentimes, there’s a lot of things going on, and we can easily get distracted by what’s going on. And so that keep coming back. That’s what you know, that’s what brings that congruence. And it also brings a lot of insight about what are the tendencies that are moving, that’s kind of the time, you know, I also recommend a lot for people these days to sit in the awareness of the sensations in the body, because that’s often missing. And that’s very different than meditation, but it really helps them later in the moment, you know, in in, or in inquiry to be present to what is rather than just be totally, you know, taken by the experience, right? And then of course inquiry, which is, you know, can I be here? Can I be with what is here, can I let it come to rest?

Rick Archer: All three of those things, there’s some overlap, too. I mean, you can be sitting in a meditative state and be aware of sensations in the body and be processing stuff and all but

Neelam: yeah, and so I find it all different, you know, but anyway, they’re just some elements that I think are helpful these days.

Rick Archer: Yeah. I’m reading some notes here that I think Lee or Nina sent me, I’m just, we’ve, we’ve covered most of them. I’ll just read you some of them. And we’ll talk about relationship a little bit. Yeah. Okay, go for that. Let’s do that.

Neelam: Because it’s one of the things that I talk about, you know, if you have, you know, my interest in talking about it is because I find the relationship, being in relationships, you know, not just intimate partnerships, but in general, that it really tells us so much about where we are

Rick Archer: wrong. God said, if you think you’re enlightened, go spend a week with your parents.

Neelam: Exactly. So so it’s a very direct, you know, inquiry right now, you know, you can’t hide right. And NSA talk about relationships, you know, I’m saying that there’s a certain part of our conditioning that only arises when we relate. See, it doesn’t arise that much when we are just on our own. So you can say, well, I was fine before I met you, right? Where I was fine before I talk to you, and then I talk to you, and I’m not fine anymore, right? And what’s not fine is because conditioning has arisen that has not been visible before. So in that way, I see if Dan rightly noticed that agenda. But as you know, awareness, relationships can be a great path to freedom, but not as an agenda, like what we have to be in relationship to, to be free. No, but if you happen to be in relationships in your life, which everybody is in some kind of relationship, right, then that can become a great way to really inquire into some of these tendencies, or some of these conditionings that we don’t know otherwise. Because when we when you are by yourself, they don’t show up that strongly, even though they show up also, they show up in the way we relate to work in the way we relate to food in the way we relate to our bodies in the way we relate to the practice, or searching or or inquiry, they show up in many ways, too. But then when you relate Whoa, you know, it just shows up very, very strongly. And that’s then a great place for inquiry.

Rick Archer: Yeah, well, 50% of all Americans get divorced. Mickey Rooney, who died recently was married eight times. So it seems like a lot of people haven’t learned that lesson. And, you know, they, they probably have this outer directed thing of you know, something’s wrong here. It’s your fault. I’m going I’m moving on. So how would as a teacher, how would you recommend to people that they use relationship as a teaching tool for discovering one’s own, you know, weak points or whatever?

Neelam: Well, first of all, I would say, you know, relationship, that means two nervous systems arising in presence. So which we have to remember, because that what you have this nervous system is going through, the other is going through similar things, it’s just a little different, but two nervous systems arising in prisons. So that means, you know, when. So that that’s first really important to recognize that it’s, it’s not there, what is going on here is not so different than what is going on over there. Which is often, the reason we don’t see it is because the projection and mechanism of projection, the positive and negative projection covers that up. And we don’t see the other just being another that is going through whatever we are going through also Jesse not another experience arising in presence. So I first teach that kind of taking that little distance, and looking at that projection, and understanding that the other is just another, you know, they are going through whatever we are going through, right, it’s just another experience arising here. First of all, secondly, you know, I say, you know, fulfillment, or happiness or rest is not found out there. We can’t find it with the we can share it, but we can’t find it with the other because it’s an inner experience. And when we come to relate, you know, there’s so many of these unfinished, early experiences in early states that arise and when that gets involved, you know, I talk about conditioning, and there’s a certain kind of conditioning that arises in relating, and there’s certain experiences that are certain parts of our conditioning that are trying to get met by being with another. They are trying to get finished by being with another. So if you ever are if anybody’s in a relationship that has this so called issues, right, where people can’t get along, that’s the unresolved past. That’s your unresolved past by unresolved past. That’s what it is. And there’s no resolving it out there. Right. There’s no reason there’s no meeting that out there, that the only way we can meet it is by meeting it. So that’s why I say, you know, I really recommending why religion? Can you come back to rest, you know, can come back to us. That’s the beginning. There’s, of course, many things they talk about when we talk about aging, but can we come back to us?

Rick Archer: Do you think that if a person didn’t have unresolved issues, they wouldn’t even bother getting into a relationship?

Neelam: I don’t know that that’s true. You see, I’m not sure. Maybe, no, I’m not sure. Because there’s part of our pool. titillating is unconscious. And the result pass part of it is conscious, you know, like, Wow, that’s great. You know, I want to have that, or be with that or be around that. So I don’t know, you know, maybe I don’t know, else.

Rick Archer: Are there people among your students who are taking your teaching to heart with regard to relationships and, you know, in order to recognize Is that the fault doesn’t lie with the other their, their, you know, their own tendencies that are bubbling up. But they’re in a relationship where the partner isn’t a student of yours and isn’t thinking of it that way, and they’re just going on doing what they do. And how do you how do you what do you say to such

Neelam: here would have to respond better, you know, practically to any each particular person because everybody’s different, and I will have to know much more information before I can give an answer.

Rick Archer: Let’s say you’re working in a job and your boss is a jerk, and he really was a jerk. And, you know, you have, you don’t have control over the way he behaves, but you have control over the way you behave. And you can

Neelam: sort of have control over if you remain in the job or

Rick Archer: not. You do you have that.

Neelam: And so and so, you know, what I see inquiry really does for people because it does different things for different people, right? Sometimes what it does is that whoever they are worth begins to resonate with it. See an interesting example, I had 123 students, women students over the last few years that have been in my longer programs, and they did a program on the relationship a couple of months ago, and their husbands showed up. You know it because they were sharing

Rick Archer: some things with them, I decided to join me one. And they did it came to

Neelam: another little program I was doing because these women were in my long term program, you can just join that, you know, when it came to another little, I had a talk on the relationship, and they showed up, right? So so the first thing is, people can begin to resonate, they may have a different path, they may have a different way. But if they begin to resonate, they will start to like it start to like the changes. I remember a husband saying to me once, I wish you would keep my wife on the retreat, because whatever time she says is when she comes up. So they either begin to resonate, or they begin to really hate it. And if the change is something that they can really resonate with, then that that’s going to drop out at some point. Yeah. Or it’s going to create a transformation. You know, I have another example of a student and she would come and say, I can’t really resonate, or I can’t really be with my family, because they, you know, they eat pizza, and they watch television, and they you know, when I go there, and she says I’m a vegetarian, and I’m, you know, doing yoga and, and she said, What should I do? And I say, Well, why don’t you just go and hang out with them? And she said, I can’t do that. I said, well just go and watch some television, you know, don’t have to eat the pizza, maybe get vegetarian, you know. And so she goes, and then some months later, she comes to me and she says, You know, I don’t know what happened, she said, But my father, so got into it that now he’s reading Eckhart Tolle, and he’s, you know, like, he started like a book, or something, you know, it’s just so totally into it. And I’m just saying, Well, it’s a simple, you know, like this the resonance, right? And if we trust in it, like with the job example, you know, I have another student in a program right now. And she just said, I have been in a really bad job for so many years. And since I have been doing this inquiry, something happened, and I just quit the job because she said, I came so much into that congruence within myself and into the resonance, and I realized I was so codependent that I couldn’t really do it before. But now that I know that here everything is okay. Now, I can just leave it and I could just do go into something else. Right. So you know, it’s not like this, like one advice, you know what I mean, but when you do the work, when you do the inner work, the outer begins to respond. Right?

Rick Archer: Yeah. That’s good. I mean, I understand how you couldn’t give a specific advice. But that general principle, if you do if, if you take care of it, this there’s a Bengali saying, if no one comes on your call, then go ahead alone. So you know, if you if you do it, then one way or the other, the outer environment is gonna change.

Neelam: Exactly. And I often, you know, I talk to people who have had addictions before, you know, and they know when they have changed from the addiction, like most of their life, or most of their friends fall away. Yeah. But then they find a whole new life.

Rick Archer: Oh, yeah. I happened to me. I mean, I was I was into drugs. I was hanging out with all my drug friends. I learned to meditate. And for about three months, I just walked the dog every day and didn’t hang out with anybody. And then a whole new social circle began to build.

Neelam: Exactly beautiful. Yeah, just the way it works. Yeah.

Rick Archer: Cool. So what else we got here? I’m just looking at the list. There’s all kinds of interesting notes here. You are talking a lot more About the nervous system these days, we’ve sort of covered that. But um, I think it’s important because obviously, the nervous system is like, if you know, if consciousness, if consciousness is like live through the nervous, it’s similar to like, you know, you need a television set set to pick up on the signals that are in the air all the time anyway, but you don’t pick them up without a television set. And the quality of your television set determines how clearly you pick them up. So like that we have a nervous system, and you can finish the thought,

Neelam: we have a nervous system. And what I say is that the more we understand this instrument, you know, we live in, right, the more we understand, and we understand how it works, the more helpful we can be to, you know, the more helpful it is to being with our own experience, right? So when we understand how does it work, and when we understand, you know, when I, when I teach about it, I talk about the brain, and I talk about the instinctual parts of the brain, and, and there’s a lot of our experience that is not accessible by thinking, right, which really is what proves what the spiritual teaching has been talking about forever. But physiologically, you know, it’s proven that the higher brain is beautiful, as it is, you know, doesn’t reach into the instinctual parts, right? So it can’t regulate, you know, stress, it can regulate these instinctual states, you know, they come on, and they are, you know, they are here and you no matter what you think they are here. So we need to develop a different way. And that way is through this sensation, right? If we understand that that’s how it works, you know, then if we also understand how trauma past affects our ability to be present, right? We understand trauma as not just an event that happened in the past. But if we understand trauma as a charge, an unresolved charge that is present in our nervous system, right? Then we see how that charge limits the capacity that we have in every moment to be with what is right. So if we can understand that if we can work with that if we can have the tenderness and kindness and, you know, generosity of being here, like, Oh, can I just be here? You know, can I just be here with this, right? And understand that that’s what’s going to help? See, because when we talk about capacity, like, can I be with, you know, like, challenges in life, challenges in life happen, capacity gets smaller and smaller and smaller with the right. And we say, well, I want to make a change. But we want to make a change out there. Right? Rather than saying, Well, I want to make a change. So let me be with this very small capacity. That may be with this nervous system that is so struggling with whatever is going on in life. And from there being something happens, capacity opens up. Now we can come and deal with what’s happening rather than just I don’t want this, I want to do I want to change I don’t want to be here within school. Can I be here, right? So yeah, well, we understand you know it and work it the way it needs to be work, the more helpful it is what our ability to be here

Rick Archer: reminds me of the first time I ever saw marshy, Mahesh Yogi, he gave a lecture in which he started quoting Darwin, he was saying survival of the fittest is love nature. And I don’t know if that’s how Darwin meant it. But he said, there’s so much challenge these days, the pace of life is increasing so much. And, you know, we have to increase our fitness to our capacity, basically, I think he was saying, in fact, he used an analogy, it says if, if a donkey has to carry a heavy load, you either have to lighten the load or strengthen the donkey. And he said, You know, sometimes you can’t lighten the load, because there’s so much coming out even light. So you need to strengthen your capacity, increase your capacity, and then you know, what might have seemed like an overwhelming barrage of stuff becomes manageable, beautiful.

Neelam: And so I’ll talk more about the nervous system, how it works, and also how to sit with it. Because we have this, you know, we have learned a lot of us come from some you know, like, what does it mean to be with something it means like get totally overwhelmed and let it all just be here. And that’s not necessarily how the nervous system works, right? We have to learn like well, just capacity and a little bit, you know, how, you know, regulate and all that. And once we get that, then it helps us so much with you know, practice writing while

Rick Archer: I’m sure you’ve heard the term neuroplasticity. There’s a lot about going on, I think and what you’re talking about.

Neelam: Yeah, because because, you know, the change will it used to be believed that there is no change in the brain after a certain time right? And of course, in the spiritual teacher realm, it was always true that you know, of course, the change happens whenever the consciousness now sets right then then that’s changed, you know, it changes everything, right. So now it’s like, well, you know, by repeating seven Action, certain behaviors, certain way of being eventually it develops a different pathway in the brain to display plasticity. Right. It’s changeable, which is another way of saying, you know, you can be free, right? It’s possible, it’s available to you this lifetime, right? It’s possible.

Rick Archer: A lot of scientists are recognizing that to Rick Hanson, and Rudy, tansy and various scientists are all writing about how dramatically the brain can actually change. So there’s a point that one of your helpers sent me, I think the she’s she said, one point you’d like me to bring out in this, that the impact of doing a long term program with you or with any other Satsang oriented teacher, or teaching is an opportunity to deepen into presence in a way that is continuously more impactful than a Satsang here and there, that long term programs provide a safe container in which deep rooted Vasanas or patterns of conditioning can be seen, held and fully let be here, as they are, and witnessed by others in a non judgmental way that can provide a path to really set these attachments free. So I guess I’m bringing that up as a sort of moving toward a conclusion of the interview that you offer these long term programs, six month programs and whatnot, where you, you know, meet with people in fairly small groups in an intimate way, not in physically in the same place, but over a conference call. And maybe you could speak a bit about what I just said, what the impact that you’ve seen in these long term programs, as opposed to attending a Satsang hear a talk there,

Neelam: you know, and I say, in my own in my own teaching, that has also changed over the years, right? Because there’s different interests at different times. And so initially, you know, my interest was just shared with anybody. Just go as, as bright, as wide as you can, and anywhere and everything, right? That was the movement in the beginning, right? And then eventually, there was more like developing of like, How can I really help people to be here? Because not everybody understands when you say, just be here? But what does it mean? And how do you do it right. And then eventually, I recognize, you know, my interest now is in the deeper work with people, it’s not really any more just, it bringing them back over and over and over to recognition of presence right? Now the work is more like, hey, what stops you really, you know, from fully resting here, let’s address that. And that is what the longer programs are about. And the initial six month program is really broad there, because I have new students come into it. And that’s a brother that really covers, you know, more direct experience and more inquiry and how to do it and all that. But then after that initial six month program, and even in this, we go deeper into the tendencies, but after the initial six month program, I really spend time more individually with people, you know, people write stuff, people, you know, there’s certain questions they answer, we interact, we do things in which I can be more of help to these particular tendencies, that maybe are not visible to them, you know, otherwise. And also, the longer the longer time, you know, it’s like, when we talk about brain plasticity, or when we talk about practice, you know, I’m not really satisfied anymore, with somebody just visiting with me for a moment, you know, I really want to see the change. And when I want to see the change, that takes time, you see, and so when we can do this over and over and over again, for a certain period of time, that usually results in a more permanent change.

Rick Archer: I remember hearing you say that you went through a phase where you would be walking down the street, and you would actually see people’s past lives and stuff like that. I mean, do you still have that something of that nature with your students, where you’re kind of seeing much more deeply into their makeup or their, their their nature than people ordinarily would see.

Neelam: What I can say is, and this is the gift and the curse, you know, of consciousness, right of that recognition is that, you know, even walking on the street or looking at anybody, you know, I can tell, I can tell their history, I can tell the different things that they went through, I can tell what they their conditioning is, and so on, and on and on. I’m not going to speak more about it, but in the flash, you know, it happens and I can see that all right, which sometimes I really, I really work on protecting myself in a way from this information. And so, you know, places I go, I don’t like to talk about what I do, and I don’t like to engage in that way. I try to really keep very much to you know, like, let’s not even you know, engage on that level. Right? Let me not even that information comes to me anyway. Yeah,

Rick Archer: there’s a saying, you know, too much information.

Neelam: It’s not just too much but it’s just like, you know, that The significance of it, you know, that can be challenging. You know what I mean? Because it’s not just information. It’s very significant information.

Rick Archer: But it would seem that that would be a handy capability to have in working with students to be able to see much more deeply into their

Neelam: I see sit with a student. That’s why that’s where I reserved the time. Yeah, that’s right. Because of Jesus just being in a world that could be, you know, overwhelming, but just but sitting with the students, that’s very helpful, because then I can see where they’re at. Right, I can see it happening. And that’s how I can be helpful. You know, more.

Rick Archer: Yeah. So it’s not something you really want to have going on in the grocery store. But when you’re sitting with a student, and

Neelam: yeah, exactly. And yet that information comes in anyway, sometimes. And it’s, you know, it’s just how it is.

Rick Archer: So how many different programs do you have, you have this six month thing, and then,

Neelam: because of the because of the limits of my health, I only do usually two six month programs throughout the winter and

Rick Archer: fall and winter. And they’re identical. So you do one and then another

Neelam: is for new students. And one is for the students that have done programs before I

Rick Archer: see. So the first one is like a prerequisite to the second one. Well, in a way,

Neelam: yes, yes, yes. Because people learn inquiry. And then throughout the summer, I do smaller programs, and also a program like a five week program where I teach inquire into, also, you know, there’s this other I do some open calls and some other different little things, you know, and shorter programs in the summer.

Rick Archer: Yeah, people are busy with things in the summer. Yeah, good. Well, sounds like you have a whole lot of if a person having listened to this interview feels inspired to plug into it somehow. There’s, there’s all kinds of things they can they can do.

Neelam: Yes, of course, they can come to our website, and they can look at our schedule, and they can see this variety of ways to come and visit and see if that’s something that they would like to Yeah.

Rick Archer: And as I mentioned, in the first interview, I have some friends that I’ve known for decades that are that are students of yours, and have merely consistently been engaged with you. Well, that reminds me of one more question, which is that? What kind of changes have you seen and people who have worked with you for a long time?

Neelam: You know, the one thing is, unfortunately, sometimes you say, you know, unfortunately, you you, when people go through the good changes, you don’t see them anymore, right? Because they just, you know, they don’t need to do it anymore, right. But but the changes that I see really, in long term students is the capacity to be here. The capacity to be here, and really what they can be worth within their own experience. And also the what I see, which is really amazing, you know, I have seen this over and over and over and over again. And I see this in many of the students that you probably know, you know, that the changes are in how does that translate into the life? How does that capacity show up in the way they are actually functional in life? That’s when that’s what I see the biggest change really, you know, real time change.

Rick Archer: Right. So that would really be the acid test. I should think you know, exactly. And do you ever have some students who say, sorry, Neelam, I’m just not getting it. You know, I mean, maybe I should move on?

Neelam: Well, you know, they probably did move on, anyway. Because I have that conversation. But I don’t think that ever happened to you know, I don’t think that maybe there was maybe there was one time that a person came into a program. And she said, I just, she was with another teacher before. And the teacher speaks in a different way. And she came into the program, which is I just don’t understand how you’re saying it. And I say, Well, you know, you just relax. And then you will, but but she decided to just move on. And that’s, you know, that just you know, what you’re doing. Right?

Rick Archer: Yeah, I mean, come who comes? Exactly. That’s great. Is there anything else that you feel like saying before we conclude?

Neelam: No, no, I think that’s good. You know, I think that’s, we have done it all. And it may be one thing I always want to say is, you know, we want to know freedom is really available to us. That is our natural state. And it we can know it in this lifetime. You know, and that’s what I would like everybody to remember. That’s really true. And we can it’s possible.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I think I’m glad you meant you said that even more so these days than might have been true. 2030 4050 years ago, it seems like it’s it’s more in the air these days,

Neelam: as these things are speeding up on the planet. So there’s really like, okay, you know, what else to do? You know, you can stop go and do the nonsense that you’re doing. Or you can just really go like, whoa, wait a minute. This is really true. I can actually be here

Rick Archer: That’s great. Well, I think we’ve given people a nice overview. And I think we managed to cover a lot of things that we didn’t talk about too much in the first interview, so it’s worth listening to both, I’d say, beautiful. So he makes some concluding remarks. First of all, thanks again. Neelima. It was wonderful talking with you really enjoy it. And I know you had to do a lot of running around and we sent you equipment and all kinds of stuff we tried to do. So that was great. I appreciate you doing all that. And I just want to make a few general comments. So Well, first of all, as we’ve already said, During the interview, if you want to get in touch with Neelam, you just go to her website, which is And I’ll have a link to that on And there will be a page for this interview. In particular, if you happen to be watching this on YouTube or something, you can go to, you’ll see that page with a lot more information and links to neons website. And you will also see all the other interviews I’ve done well over 200. Now, there are several different indices, there’s an alphabetical index, a chronological index a bunch of other things, if you play around with the the menus on the website, you’ll also see a link to an audio podcast so that you can subscribe on iTunes and just listen to the audio. There’s a Donate button, which I appreciate people clicking if they feel inspired, there is a place to sign up to be notified by email each time a new interview is posted. And so you’ll get about one email a week as a result of signing up there. And there’s a discussion group that crops up around each interview forum. And there’ll be you know, there’s a different section of the forum for each interview. So you can go in and discuss some of the things we’ve talked about in this interview, if you’d like. So, thanks for listening or watching and thanks again, Neelam. And

Neelam: Jake is so nice, such a pleasure to talk to you. It was great. Appreciate you and all the work that you put into it. It’s just so awesome. You know, I really, really appreciate that

Rick Archer: wealth, a lot of fun. And I have some some wonderful helpers, my wife who’s sitting here who does hours a day worth of stuff. And my friend from high school, Ralph Preston, who does all the video post production, Larry Kelly up in Canada, who does the audio post production, a guy named Jerry and Utah who coordinates the sending of equipment and testing things with people. There’s, there’s a team of translators and transcribers headed up by guy named Nicholas, who’s in Spain. And so there’s a lot of people who’ve stepped forward to volunteer which is another thing you’ll find on the website is a page of potential volunteer activities if you’d like to take a look at that, and maybe there’ll be something that resonates with your skills. So good. So,

Neelam: so mean to you person, person, listening to hours and hours and hours before the interview that is so you know, awesome and deeply appreciated. So well.

Rick Archer: I really enjoyed it’s very listenable. Good stuff. Alright, thanks, Neelam. Thank you. Thank you so much. Bye bye.