Moksha Mukti Transcript

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Moksha Mukti Interview

Rick Archer: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer, and my guest this week or today is Robin Pandy, who also goes by the name of Moshe moody. Did you give yourself that name? Bucha mukta? Or got it from some teacher or what?

Moksha Mukti: It’s interesting. How I got this name actually appeared in my dream, you know? So I got it from my dream, you know, a lot of things.

Rick Archer: Something just came to you like, and yes, yeah. Don’t make sure and look at me in the same thing as though they both mean liberation, or do they have different meanings?

Moksha Mukti: It means the same thing. But actually, you know, it is also my stage name, you know, I also do other things. And it going to put into stage and I watched him. Okay, that’s like, first name and last name. So

Rick Archer: stage name, meaning you do some performing some singing some things like that. Yes, yeah. Okay. I listened to a bunch of your recordings, several hours worth and also to read a lot of the stuff that you wrote. And I heard you alluding to an event that happened in 2009, some kind of awakening or shift or something, but I never quite found a description of the event itself. Maybe you wrote it, and I didn’t get through it. But can you tell us about that?

Moksha Mukti: Well, see, this speaker right now with speaking, you know, experience something, which is what I can tell you is extraordinary. And I can really, you know, put words to describe, you know, what, what has happened? You know, at that time, it’s the only thing I can tell you is this, it was extraordinary experiencing that lasted for I would say about several months, you see. And what is left after that experience, you know, is Moshe Murthy. Because what happened was it wiped out all the conditioning, that attachment to the conditioning was in a completely wiped out. This is not here anymore. See, I’m not attached to anything, any desire, any conditioning, you know?

Rick Archer: So that’s, that’s an important distinction actually, isn’t that it wiped out the attachment to the conditioning? Because it wiped out the conditioning? You wouldn’t know how to play the guitar anymore, or brush your teeth or anything else?

Moksha Mukti: Yeah, exactly. You see, you see, we cannot separate ourselves from the conditioning, you know, you see, I hear a lot of in a spiritual community that, you know, you give up your conditioning, you know, you cannot give up your condition. That’s why even after this so called awakening, you know, I am still participating life fully and passionately, you know, actually my participant is strengthened in this after this.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Did the awakening, I mean, had you been a spiritual practitioner or seeker or something before this awakening?

Moksha Mukti: Well, I have to be careful how I answer to this question. Because, you see, although you are seeking the spiritual, whatever you’re seeking, is see that event actually is independent to what has happened to me. See, it’s not related event. So, see the thought structure we have is actually try to box within its limitation. And, you know, so within the limitations, it tries to, you know, box everything, and tries to structure everything and which is limited

Rick Archer: and tries to assign causality. Exactly. Right. Exactly. But you know, to give a simple answer, I mean, you I heard you mentioned Deepak Chopra. I don’t know if you were studying with Deepak Chopra, or what, but had you been doing some sort of meditation or, you know, I mean, you were from Nepal originally. So that kind of thing is indigenous to your culture. But I mean, you weren’t sort of a gambling alcoholic, you know, crazy man, who all sudden woke up one day there There must have been some kind of something leading up to it

Moksha Mukti: again and I have to be careful here because when you say leading that means, you know, I this would be misleading to say that you know, by doing ABC right, you see that will take you somewhere he said that is misleading and see, we humans have been misleading or misled by the so called spiritual for runners. By you know, there have been saying that by doing yoga, by meditation by sadhana, you know, or whatever, you know, some how some point you will be enlightened, you know, whatever that may be, you see, but I don’t see it like that, how do you see it? See, this is independent event, you know, how it happens, when it happens, where it happens, you have no way of knowing it.

Rick Archer: So this event, let’s say we wish we could call it Enlightenment or awakening or whatever word is convenient. And not no word really does justice to it, I’m sure. But if we did a scientific study, and let’s say we took a statistically significant sampling of the population and control groups and so on, and we had one group that was practicing spiritual practices, and maybe we could have make it a big study have you know, 10 different spiritual practices, each group practicing a different one and then 10 Different groups who are doing nothing whatsoever, some of them are taking drugs, and some of them are just not, not nobody, don’t you think that there would be a kind of a higher predominance of spiritual awakenings among the people who are doing the spiritual practices, I mean, doesn’t it kind of pan out that way in our society, we see that happening, don’t we?

Moksha Mukti: Certainly, you know, the way our thoughts structure again, I want to go back to touch structure, the way it is structured, you see, it is a structure by what I call is a comprehensive collective knowledge see, we have collected knowledge, since the beginning of the time or beginning of the existence of man, you know, whenever that existed, if such thing occurred, since then, we have collected this knowledge and that actually is responsible for framing our structure or the condition our thought. So, within that framework, a lot of studies people put a lot of studies, which is actually studies the repetition of thoughts. So when you you are putting you’re repeating your thoughts for such a long period of time, you end up coming up with a what they call this idea, profound idea, you see, and that idea is responsible for labeling, like, you know, by you know, practicing this, you know, you will succeed in practicing this, you will fail. And now I have to be careful because that exists. In our functioning in the society, you see, we have to function in the society, and to function in the society, we have to accept that process, but in, in what I call this awakening, or whatever it is that it is totally unrelated to them.

Rick Archer: Okay, so you have a guitar sitting behind you. And I presume you know how to play it. And you didn’t wake up one morning, knowing how to play the guitar use, you practiced and you learn, and you were really probably really bad at it at first, and then you gradually got better and maybe now you’re, you’re pretty good at it. So, practice resulted in your ability to play the guitar, but you’re saying that doesn’t pertain in the spiritual realm?

Moksha Mukti: Well see that again, I have to be careful here, you know, because I understand exactly what you’re talking about. Yes, without playing without practicing, I cannot be good at playing guitar. without practicing even speaking, you know, I wouldn’t be able to speak you know, as good as you know, what I’m speaking now, you know, I don’t know, how good is that, but, you know, so, practice makes one perfect, because, see, what we experience is the repetition of thoughts. So, if you repeat your thought, you become good at it, you see any, you can learn anything you want, you know, from operating to operating a camera to you know, playing a keyboard or, you know, becoming a scientist, you see, even Einstein, you know, he spent 25 years, you know, focusing on something and he putting his thought to putting his thought for 25 years, he came up with something so profound, that, you know, everybody looks up to him is such a great being. But you see, even what scientists what he says, I can refute that, and one day, his theory will be outdated.

Rick Archer: So what you’re saying is that relative knowledge such as a scientist might acquire through study and practice and investigation, eventually gets overturned and refuted Well, well, let’s say I mean, take Einstein as an example, since you brought him up relativity theory, general and special relativity came along as a completely new understanding of the way the universe functions. But it didn’t refute Newtonian physics, it just added an understanding of a different layer of nature is functioning Newtonian, you know, kind of more superficial, gross layer of functioning, quantum mechanics or relativity theory deals with a deeper phenomenon. So I’m not sure where we’re going with this. But in terms of relative knowledge and relative understanding, yeah, it is, by definition, its relative, and therefore, always has it’s not absolute. It’s not ultimate final, you know, permanent. But it has its usefulness.

Moksha Mukti: Exactly, exactly. You hit the right word, Rick usefulness even what the? What are the function? Yes. What they provide is their assumption, they asserted with presenting all these ideas, and, you know, we accept those ideas, because we are conditioned to accept that, you see.

Rick Archer: And, and it serves its usefulness. I mean, yeah, exactly. And then Tony, and I mean, the laws of physics of various types, have given us airplanes and iPads and all kinds of, you know, inventions and so on. They has a practicality to it.

Moksha Mukti: Yeah. See, yes, yes, it has a practicality. And that’s all there is to it. You see, they are, are asserted their ideas, and people accept that as a gospel truth or in a scientific evidence. But see all theories, what I’m pointing out is all theories are false, you see, but like you said, they’re useful.

Rick Archer: So they, are they really ultimate? Are they really fault or are they just not complete? In other words, they each provide a little piece of the puzzle, but they’re not the whole puzzle.

Moksha Mukti: Now, there. I said they’re false. Okay, so

Rick Archer: let’s take a theory. The theory of I don’t know, relativity, which I don’t completely understand, because I’m not a physicist, but equals MC squared, and energy equals the speed of light matter times the speed of light squared, is that false?

Moksha Mukti: I will say as false, why it is false, because see, we what they are using is what they call is a part structures, you thought structure is limited to see, it does not know the reality See, one point, humans believe, you know, the theory believed that, hey, you know, the earth is flat, you see. And at that time, you know, if you were there, you know, whatever that time is, you would believe that our earth is flat. And you know, if you if you and I are having conversation at that time, you know, the you say art is flat, but today everyone is slaying artists around. And I have to accept that if I don’t accept the artists round, everybody will call me loony. Right?

Rick Archer: There are some people out there who still believe it’s flat. They actually have a website.

Moksha Mukti: Yeah, but now see, the quantum physics or the the new physics quantum how’s the quantum physics, they’re saying that art is a hologram? So would you believe art is around or a hologram? See, and again, what I’m pointing out is that this scientists will come up in the community, and you know, they are useful, you know, and I accept them, you know, for the usefulness. But, you know, there I say all theories are false, because what they’re doing is they’re asserting, well, this is the right way to do it. You see,

Rick Archer: I think if we, you know, if we acknowledge that no theory or bit of scientific information or even personal experience, can, can grasp totality, but each has its specific realm of applicability, that we don’t have to say it’s false. For instance, you know, Einstein’s theory of relativity was proven by an experiment in which it was discovered that Starlight is bent by the gravity of the sun. And you know, and someone came to Einstein and said, Well, what would you have done? If the if the theory had been disproven? And he said, Well, I would have been sorry for the dear Lord, because the theory is right. He knew he knew that, you know, and, and it hasn’t been disproven. It has its its relative truth, but it’s just not the total picture of the functioning of reality. It’s just, it’s, it’s one aspect of it, just as gravity is just one aspect to it, and you can take to take it to another level and gravity doesn’t exist there. It’s invalid. It’s false. You could say to use your words.

Moksha Mukti: Yeah, exactly. You’re right. Again, you know, I you know, I have to be careful because I do have profession and you know, if I, somebody here is, you know, talking about this, and they would say, you know, this guy’s absurd, but no, I do accept, you know, the reality. Again, I want to point out two realities here. One is, I would say in in my book, it is their reality, I say with the small r, and the reality with a capital R There you go. That’s But the reality the reality that you are talking about with a small are at those things are all I accept that, yes, relative realities? Yes, I accept that. And those are only illusory a reality, which we accept that. And the and we accept them because what we have is a mental mechanism that is placed in us. And, you know, that mechanism. through that mechanism, it separate us see, separate you and I separate these objects around us, there’s a glass, there is a leaf, actually, I brought this to leaves here, I will talk to talk about this in a minute. Okay, I was taking a walk this morning. And this happened to be there anyway, I’m going off the subject, but yeah, so all this separateness, is there a to this, what I call this mental mechanism, see, if we don’t have this camera in front of us now. And if there is no headset to hear, you know, we wouldn’t be able to see each other. Right? So the similarity the, what I’m asserting, or the what I’m pointing is that the mental mechanism that we have, that lets us see the separateness. So that tells us that we are separate, you know, we are in the individual being we are independent, and we are separate, you see. So that is happening through that mechanism. Right, you know, so,

Rick Archer: and that doesn’t seem to be an accident, it seems to be kind of the way universities design, there’s all these mechanisms through which separateness is is perceived. And yeah, I think what you’re pointing to is that that’s not the whole picture. Right? There’s, there’s a deeper reality, which is not separate.

Moksha Mukti: Yes, yes. deeper reality? Actually, I have. I have an analogy I want to make if I may, sure. I have this picture in front of me here. And

Rick Archer: oh, yeah, one of those things, where if you look at it long enough, you’ll find something in it.

Moksha Mukti: So I’m sure you know, people have seen it, you have seen this type of picture. So my analogy here, is that the universe that I see as the picture you don’t, there is nothing there. That’s like the picture in the universe. Universe.

Rick Archer: So clarify that there’s nothing in the universe, what do you say?

Moksha Mukti: Okay, just like this picture right here. There’s nothing here. Right? Right. Just the dots and

Rick Archer: lots of patterns and dots. Yes, yes. So the

Moksha Mukti: universe is like this. And we have this instrument, mental instrument,

Rick Archer: which gives some sense to it, or some interpretation or something.

Moksha Mukti: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So through this instrument, we see all these objects, right? We see all this you know, all this illusory things, we see everything that includes our thoughts, feelings, emotions, you know, love, hatred in everything. And everything you see is is the interpretation of the mind, you see. And if you look through the picture for a long period of time, you’ll see there’s something there is, and that is the interpretation in mind. So the whole universe is like this dot dot dot molecules, tons of molecules. And yes, and that is interpreted by the mind and mind sees as the, you know, something. So what you, what we’re doing here is the total interpretation of the mind.

Rick Archer: Okay, yeah. And so I think I get your point. And so like, if there were 10 beings in the room with you, there’s you and there’s a mouse, and there’s a chameleon, and there’s a housefly, and there’s a bat and a cat, and, you know, a bunch of different things, each one, they’re all in the same room, but each one is seeing some is interpreting completely differently, seeing something completely different. So what you’re saying is, we’re all like little filters that sort of just give a little perspective on a much larger reality without actually appreciating that what’s, what’s really there. Are you saying that?

Moksha Mukti: Yes. Some of our trick is you are the interpretation there. It’s the interpretation of the equipment, you see. Just to give you an analogy, you know, you had some different equipment I couldn’t see clearly but now you have different equipment. I see you clearly. See, so we see through the different equipment, but that is not the true picture of the reality. You see that.

Rick Archer: Right. And even from a scientific perspective, we’re told that you know, we only experience a little tiny fraction of the electromagnetic field as visible light and we only hear a little tiny portion Have of potential sounds that could be heard, like compared to a dog or something, you know, and we all smell we only smell it. So we’re very limited in terms of our sensory experience in interpreting what’s really happening. Is this the way is this the direction you’re going in with this?

Moksha Mukti: Well, certainly it is. Yeah, you’re right. It is certainly limited, but the direction? I think what I’m pointing out is that the the mind is certainly limited. But the you know, what I’m point is, it is not the true picture of the reality again, you know, yeah, I think I think we are, you know, here, you know, having this conversation, you know, you know, in this platform, I think we’re talking about reality is the reality, and, you know, this is an my expression is total radicals, because, you know, this is going beyond the reality that is apparently that is available right now. Yeah,

Rick Archer: I think it does, I think what you’re leaning toward is that, you know, to say that, you know, one can somehow open oneself up to or be appreciative of, or experience deeper reality, which is far more vast than all these individual perceptions that are imposed, you know, the limitations that are imposed upon us by our physical senses. Is that Is that what you’re getting at? I don’t mean to put words in your mouth, but I’m trying to understand where we’re going with this logic.

Moksha Mukti: Again, I want to go back again to reality with small r and v, the capital R Okay. Yes. And the mental instrument we have what I’m pointing out is the mental instrument we have whatever instrument we have does not know the reality there is no way we know the reality through this instrument right. But there is something within you that is peculiar that knows the reality that is connected to the reality that is already available to you right this moment.

Rick Archer: And is that what happened in 2009, when you had your big awakening Was there some some kind of opening to that reality with the capital are

Moksha Mukti: you see, it knows this the secondary I have you know, whatever this living organism that is functioning here dynamically, the energy behind that it knows it gives me authority to speak on behalf but see, I cannot put into language you know, describing what has happened you know, even that is awakening even a question you know, whether there is awakening, you see, even this is a dream, you see what I think is this is a dream, there is no difference between the dream that we dream and my time and this obviously, there is a degree I know and there is a separating concreteness that is we experienced now then you know, why we’re sleeping. But even in dream, you know, I see this line, I’m sure people have seen a lion chasing, you know, you’re trying to run away from line and you really believe that you’re, you know, going like this going like this, you’re afraid your heart is beating, you know, all these happening, and you wake up a it’s a lie. Right? Yeah.

Rick Archer: So, I think, you know, throughout history, people have said, well, you can’t really put this into words, you know, many, many, many people have had spiritual awakenings and Enlightenment or whatever. And they’ve all said, words can’t really express it. And and that’s, you know, that’s not actually such a big mystical thing. I mean, Words can’t express the color what the color red is, you tried to describe color red, you don’t have any words for it, it’s well, it’s read it read it. Yeah. I mean, you might, you just you can only kind of, you know, use words to give a hint of what things are. And and what you’re alluding to is something which is not a sensory experience, right? It’s beyond the senses. And so therefore, it’s even harder to put into words because you can’t compare it to anything sensory, you can’t say, well, it’s like, tasting an orange or it’s like, you know, looking at a sunset, it’s, it’s not a sensory experience. Exactly.

Moksha Mukti: So, see, after the awakening, what is left here again is the Moksha movie and that is only interested in pointing how this is functioning here, how it is functioning, dynamically, you know, all the mechanism, all the functionality that is going on how is functioning and in reality, it is you know, this being here is actually singing a tune or speaking or whatever you want to call it. And you know, and some people accept this, some people will reject it and some people you know, they’re in neutral is really not this beings concern.

Rick Archer: Yeah. So what is your motivation in giving talks and Satsang and all that? What are you attempting to do? or are you attempting to do anything?

Moksha Mukti: Nothing, you know, just expressing the expression, see the life energy, it expresses itself, it is expressing naturally. So this is all it’s doing. You see, even if I saw this leaf right here, you see, that is expressing you see, this two lives, they come from one tree, you know, and there are many leaves in the tree, you know, 1000s of leaves, you know, and you know, what this being doing is doing is something like this, you know, it’s it’s expressing uniquely see, there is no being like this being here, there is no being like that being there with speaking. And there is no being you see, these two leaves, they’re totally different. If you look closely, they’re totally different. But from far they look same or similar. But turns out, they’re totally different is each leaf is singing its tune that whether you pay attention, or I happen to pay attention, I even pay attention to the birds that is flying, like this morning I was walking, I even see small insects that I say hello. So I acknowledge you see, even the bird is, is a part of this universe and the bird ego I’m sorry, that insect is also part of the network that is walking, I said, Hello, you seem because the insect is expressing See, in whatever time you see, it’s beautiful to me, because I see that, you know, you and I are walking. And that is beautiful. And I say hello. And this is exactly what I’m doing. You know, this being right here, which is, you know, living organism that is functional dynamically expresses. And this is simply expressing seeing the tone.

Rick Archer: So you’re just saying that you feel a kind of kinship with all life. And with all of creation, there’s a sense of intimacy, with the birds and the bugs and the leaves and everything and that if you feel motivated to speak and make YouTube videos, just just the way a bird feels motivated to sit in the tree and sing, there’s just there’s just a set of a spontaneous uprising of of expression.

Moksha Mukti: Yeah, it’s simply expressing see this, this expressing this energy that is dynamically expressing is this taking an illusory form this as a human being that has a bird that has an insect is this doing that in, in reality, we are all one you see this all dynamic, you see. And you know, we cannot separate in reality. But like I said, we separate if I go back to my earlier, we separate through this mechanism, mental mechanism that sees a separate, you see, and if I said we are all one, let’s have a blue cog in a blob of life, I do that, you know, hey, you know, I cannot function in the society, the society is so powerful, you see, is illusion, it’s an illusion, but it’s a powerful illusion, you see it, this has been going on for millions and millions of years. And we have collected comprehensive collective knowledge. And this is actually driving this whole thing is seeing in our illusion, and it takes energy and thought projects. And you see, if you don’t give energy to that you cannot be part of that you see. And if you don’t give energy to that, you know, give attention to that. See, it rejects you, it throws you off because you’re loony. Your loser, you’re there, your daddy throws you out of society. And you have to accept that because it is powerful to see.

Rick Archer: Yeah, so in other words, we have to kind of give some credence to the boundaries of even though we might ultimately understand them to be illusory in order to live a life in order to exactly interact with the world make us make a living, feed your kids whatever you need to do.

Moksha Mukti: Yeah, that’s what I go to work. You know, I go to I have a regular job. I am a you know, software, senior software consultant, I go in the morning I do job and just like everyone else. But you know, the recognition here is the I’m not attached to the job. You see, I do the job. I do it passionately. I do I work hard, but I am not attached to anything. You see, I have a family. I have a wife, I have a daughter. You know, I am passionate about them. But there is no attachment. You know if anything arises, I am there to I’m for them, you see, but the attachment is not there. But the I am passionate. My heart is there is to be Yeah. And I don’t if that makes sense. It does.

Rick Archer: Before this thing in 2009 Were you attached?

Moksha Mukti: Yes. I was totally attached to everything I did you see? Totally, totally attached. Right?

Rick Archer: And then all of a sudden, or maybe not all sudden, but over a period of months as this experience unfolded. You found yourself not attached anymore.

Moksha Mukti: It’s so it was instant fraction of second.

Rick Archer: Just like that, just like that. And so again, I’m curious. You just woke up one morning and this happened or had you been doing some kind of meditation or reading spiritual books or going to seminars or anything whatsoever.

Moksha Mukti: Again, I want to I’m certain point out that, you know, awakening whatever this is, is nothing that you ever imagined, you see, this is actually a burden in a way that because it is not something that if imagine that, you know, after the awakening, or you’re going to have so peaceful, you know, experiencing, you know, the great, extraordinary experiencing all the time, no, see, this is nothing that you ever imagined. This is nothing that is written in the book, this is totally different. That, you know, it’s actually a painful sometimes, you know, not painful to me, but it’s a painful situation to be in this position is why was it painful? It is not really painful to this being but I’m speaking in terms of language to be it’s a painful experience, you know, it’s not really painful to be I am not in pain is a but it is painful experiencing,

Rick Archer: you know, oh, who to whom or to what is why are using the word painful?

Moksha Mukti: I’m using the word painful because that is the word we know from the comprehensive collective knowledge, the pain and pleasure is see there’s two different things. So

Rick Archer: but you’re saying that Awakening was painful? Or it could be painful or something? Is that correct? I’m trying to understand what what what you mean, or why you’re using the word painful?

Moksha Mukti: Again, I have to be careful, because see, if I give you that then you know, you will say, well, it’s not painful, if you will use the word though. I mean, why did you do it is the experiencing that is, is this this is like a disastrous you see, because it wipes out all the conditioning that you are tasked to one point and it is not there anymore.

Rick Archer: Okay. So it’s kind of a radical transformation. That’s what you’re saying? Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, and people who who have undergone such a radical transformation have often reported great fearfulness, or it really shook up their world in some way. And it wasn’t necessarily Oh, boy, I’m so glad this has happened. It was more it was my Holy mackerel, what’s happening? Yeah, kind of a period of adjustment. Yeah. And

Moksha Mukti: there is no turning back. See, I don’t think I could ever go back to the Attach men to life. You mentioned fear, because actually, there is no fear here. But the fear is here, you see, the fear is here is it’s like a heart, my heart is beating right now. I cannot take the heartbeat out. And I cannot take the fear out of my body. You see, the fear is here. But see, after this experiencing, I am not interested in getting rid of my fears. I am not interested in getting rid my heartbeat. The fear is there. I’m not interested in getting on one of the theories, there is a part of the body to see when the animals attack somebody attacks, you know, you’re in dark place. Certainly the body gives you that fear. That is the mechanism. But the trying to get rid of the fear gives you more fear. So you’re more fearful,

Rick Archer: right? Exactly. Yeah. You know, there’s an old Zen saying, which is, awakening may be an accident, but spiritual practice makes you accident prone. And a couple of times, I’ve tried to ask you like what was going on in your life prior to this event prior to this awakening? And you stepped back and hesitated to meant to say it. So I don’t know, maybe I won’t pursue that line of questioning, we can just, you know, take a guess. But

Moksha Mukti: well, I actually what I do want to point out, Rick, is that you see, you mentioned earlier that I wanted to come come come back and touch upon on that. You know, so if you practice spiritual practice, and I’m not against anything, I’m not against any religion. I’m not against any scientist. I’m not against any government. I’m not against any society. I am just, you know, happy to be here you see, and in obey, practicing if you want to practice spiritual, I don’t you know, recommend not to don’t practice. You know, after the awakening, I don’t eat meat. I don’t drink alcohol. You just quit in a fraction of a second like that. You had you had been doing those things before. No, I was I was I was making Oh, I had a wine shop in my basement. I was making home wine. And you know, I was eating meat on almost every day and after this awakening, this is still a second I don’t know how it happened. Why it happened. He just you know this body is not interested in taking meat or drinking alcohol is so gone. But you know, let me go back to the spiritual awakening. You know, yes. By practicing it gives you certainly gives you some extra ordinary experiencing see, if you just sit here do meditation in you know, even today I today I say meditation is sleeping. But then again back then in I did used to teach meditation to people at the Wiener in Ohio State University in Columbus, Ohio. But, you know, by doing meditation, it will give you I certainly give you an extra ordinary experiencing. But that is not the real awakening that everyone is looking for in the spiritual community.

Rick Archer: No, it’s It’s just experiences which come and go. But there is a correlation between, you know, meditation practice and awakening. It’s sort of like as, like I said in the Zen saying it does make you accident prone. There’s definitely a correlation. I mean, you are, who knows? I mean, maybe it’s people who are destined to have an awakening just are inclined to do practices, and there’s no correlation between the two. But it sure sure does look like various kinds of practices that people do culture, the nervous system or somehow bring about a can development, which makes it more conducive, or likely for some shift to take place. Yeah,

Moksha Mukti: see, that may, again, bring you in the state of what they call is the Enlightenment state. But again, that is not the real estate Enlightenment, even if you come to that state, what I’m pointing out is that is not the real Enlightenment. That is the experience of the something extraordinary is not the real Enlightenment. So yes. You mentioned

Rick Archer: anything about an extraordinary but but okay, but since you’ve said that, what is the real Enlightenment?

Moksha Mukti: Why are we interested in Enlightenment?

Rick Archer: Because you just brought up the word you said that it is said that whatever meditative, spiritual practice brings you it’s something maybe something is extraordinary, but it’s not the real Enlightenment. And so that implies that there is something called the realignment that you’re referring to,

Moksha Mukti: oh, well, I don’t know if there is such thing as Enlightenment, but I’m just speaking in terms of language, if if there is such thing as Enlightenment,

Rick Archer: okay, so this, whatever this state is, so the shift that happened to you, you’re not saying it’s Enlightenment, but you are saying it’s Moshe mukti, which both of which mean are synonymous with Enlightenment? Enlightenment is the Western word. Those are Indian, Hindu Sanskrit words for liberation, or, which is what Enlightenment is supposed to be. So I’m just kind of trying to get it clear what you’re talking about what your experiences, and what your understanding is, of what this state that you’re experiencing? Is.

Moksha Mukti: Yeah, certainly, again, you know, we are rake, we are using the heart structure,

Rick Archer: which we have to do if we’re gonna have a conversation.

Moksha Mukti: There’s no other way. There is no other way. Yes. So we are using touch structure to box what has happened, you see. And, you know, from my experiencing, what has happened is, it’s not something that I gain, you see, it’s something that I lost what I lost, what attachment to the conditioning, that’s what happened.

Rick Archer: Okay, what else can you say about it? Besides losing all attachment? Is there any other kind of, I mean, well, you also said you stopped eating meat and drinking alcohol, is there anything else which you can say, which kind of points to what it is? Or what it was?

Moksha Mukti: Yes, your family and your friends will distant from you. Because everything you talk, you talk like this, and they have no idea what you’re talking about? They know, is this something great? And they cannot come to your level? And they say, you know, come to my level? I said, you know, why do I need to come to you? Well, you come to my level, you know, so it’s it never works?

Rick Archer: Well, you know, when the mango tree is ripe, the branches been down so that it’s easy to pick the fruit. You know, it’s it should be possible for a person who’s in a Realized state to come to the level of the listener whatever level that may be, and speak to them in a way which they can understand.

Moksha Mukti: Yeah, see, I don’t see any level, you know, people they see as a level this level that level, I don’t see as a level I am just the extra. I’m just a simple, ordinary person. You see, there is no level here. But you just said that you said your family come to my level. And that’s that’s what their their words, you know, they said company, you know, your your high energy didn’t say come to my level, I said, No, you come to my level, whatever that level may be.

Rick Archer: So on the one hand, you’re saying that, I don’t mean to be argumentative, but I’m just trying to pin you down. On the one hand, you’re saying that they’re your family couldn’t understand you anymore, because you were speaking from a level or an in a certain way, which they couldn’t relate to natural, natural, natural state. And, and why do you feel they couldn’t relate to it? The just because it wasn’t their experience, right?

Moksha Mukti: Well, see, again, see, the whole I would say 99% of human beings are functioning, you know, in terms of only in terms of the collective comprehensive knowledge we have collected, and that knowledge is limited. And, and if you just use that knowledge, you know, which is we use for everyday talking, you know, he wouldn’t be able to grasp you and be able to Um, you know, have a know what that is, you know, in terms of, but there is there is not knowing anyway, you know, in reality, there’s, you know, but just to speak our language there, they wouldn’t understand or know what I what I went through.

Rick Archer: Okay. Now obviously there are other languages so to speak, that are specialized that help people describe or discuss certain things. For instance, there’s the language of mathematics, there’s a certain language in music, which involves notes and you know, a conductor of an orchestra speaks, those, those are all talking, yeah, he speaks that language and the people in the orchestra understand that language. And, you know, there are certain languages in medicine and different fields of science and so on, that are all specialized and enable people to communicate with one another in those fields. Now, in spirituality, obviously, we have a lot of terminology, a lot of scriptures, a lot of traditions and so on, who would have been dedicated to or concerned with discussing the kind of thing that we’re talking about here. And, you know, maybe it’s never been perfect, he can’t really, you know, describe the experience with ultimately satisfactory, but a lot of them in a lot of people have been trying for 1000s of years and have made pretty good efforts in terms of, you know, you read Shankara, you read Ramana, Maharshi, read Nisargadatta, these different guys, they have, they are contemporary people like Adi Shanti, they’re pretty good at articulating something which is beyond words.

Moksha Mukti: It’s no such thing as articulating and beyond words, you see that everything that you describe, even the music notes, you know, even the artistry, you know, you know, even poetry is the thought induced. Experiencing, you see, so whatever the thought in this experiencing, I call it impure, you know, it’s not really real.

Rick Archer: Well, it’s a pointer. Like, for instance, music notes, you see all these little squiggles on the paper. And a person who’s not trained in music looks in that and looks at that, and it doesn’t mean anything to them. Yeah, a person who’s like a, you know, sir, Neville Marriner, or something like that, looks at that and sees Beethoven’s Sixth symphony and understands what those squiggles represent and has an appreciation for it. So, you know, there’s that old Zen saying, again, finger pointing at the moon, don’t mistake the finger for the moon. So, all these words are just pointers, yes, but, but like the music notes, they can, you know, they can, they provide a means however, inadequate for communicating that which can only really be experienced and cannot be communicated through words, they, but they provide a way of talking about it,

Moksha Mukti: yes, the words is different in terms of thinking, even the music, as I say, is thinking, you know, so the music is, notes, is thinking, everything is thinking, see, without thinking, you know, we cannot be aware, you know, so it’s all thought and thought is excellent, what is thought is the electromagnetic field that is functioning on his own, see, even the right now I don’t, I have no idea what I’m going to say next, you see, even you know, any human being cannot say that I’m going to say something next year, the thought is something that is happening spontaneously, it is electromagnetic field that is arising out of the energy that you have within you, and the it is relating to the energy that is happening dynamically that is we don’t see here is the intangible energy that we have, you know, even the planet, you know, is giving us all this energy that is vibration that we don’t see with our eyes, and even distance, you know, trillion lights away, you know, something that is there is actually affecting us that we don’t see with our eyes, which is intangible. And these things are actually relating to each other. So the in this relation, you know, it’s a dynamic relation that is going on, you know, it’s just the interaction dance of molecules, university dancing, that is what is happening.

Rick Archer: Did you think about this kind of stuff a lot before this awakening, or were you not not a very philosophical kind of guy.

Moksha Mukti: I was a philosophical you know, I did, like I said, I did, you know, go back to went through a lot of, you know, readings and a lot of listening to the so called gurus and stuff like that, but you know, none of them really helped me in this awakening, you know, this happening is spontaneous and who is speaking here right now. So the speaker I have no idea see Robin panda could not say all these things, you see, this is happening. This is happening dynamically and who is speaking you see there is only speaking going on. There is no speaker here. peasy.

Rick Archer: Yeah. And I suppose that’s true of just about everything you do speaking eating?

Moksha Mukti: Yes, it’s a machine. Yeah, it’s a machine that is functioning on his own. Although, you know, we it appears as a It’s not functioning, but it is functioning on his own.

Rick Archer: And that’s that’s corroborated by ancient scriptures too. And there’s always verses in the Gita about how one does really, they say even on, you know, grasping and letting go and walking and speaking and all this different stuff. When one realizes I do not act at all, there is no actor doing all these things.

Moksha Mukti: Yes, I mean, those are all assumptions, you know, written in the books, you know, you have no idea what is happening, you know, you just,

Rick Archer: you know, it’s people who wrote books 5000 years ago that tried to describe the kind of experience that you’re trying to describe now.

Moksha Mukti: They see they’re singing their tune, you know, 5000 years ago, whoever wrote that verse, or, you know, whoever wrote that, and, you know, and I think we were out there is certainly, you know, I heard that they were in acid, high and acid, you know, sitting somewhere in jungle, you know, and experience all this extraordinary experience, which you can, you know, buy for, I don’t know, I’ve never done acid, but I can get for $10 $50 today and experience, same thing now. And, you know, and be able to write something extraordinary like that, you see,

Rick Archer: well, I did it a fair amount back in about 1967 68. And I can assure you that the experience, although it gives you a glimpse of something, it’s not the same as the sort of awakening or awareness that’s cultured naturally over time, at least it wasn’t for me, it was just sort of a glimpse without actually having cleared out of all the garbage that, you know, was filling my head. And so it was a very muddled, muddled kind of thing. Whereas, you know, as you say, I mean, in your, in the case of your spiritual awakening, there was a dropping of all attachments. And, presumably, I mean, what did that do to your thought process, for instance, if you find that, prior to that awakening, your mind was kind of noisy, a lot and full of extraneous noise, got thoughts, and then afterwards, it became more quiet, and there wasn’t so much static going on, it wasn’t like 10 radio stations playing at the same time.

Moksha Mukti: Now, let’s see, it’s nothing like that.

Rick Archer: So what was it like?

Moksha Mukti: To see? The prior to this? I would say the hardest more linear, you know, linear part. Now the part is not linear, it’s I don’t know, it’s part is dynamic, spontaneous? Exactly.

Rick Archer: So you’re kind of would you say you’re more living in the moment?

Moksha Mukti: Exactly, you see, what is important to me is now what is happening, you see the present, you see the conversation you’re having, you know, this is all exist. Now, if nothing else, of course, you know, there are many things happening dynamically, you know, so and so is going to grocery store, so and so is you know, working even on Sunday, so and so is enjoying drinking beer, having fun watching a ballgame, you know, my wife and daughter doing something, you know, this is all happening now, see, this is all there is, you see, and we have been misleading by this so called spiritual foreigners saying that there is something other than this, you see, and that is the problem.

Rick Archer: Who would who said there was nothing there was something other than assuming, like, who can you think of a foreigner who said that

Moksha Mukti: even discussion we have there is such thing as enlightened. And if someone is seeking from light, and there is something there is the other than this? You see, what I say? Is this is it. This is the you know, this is a great joy for me, you know, be able to express you know, there’s nothing, you know, extraordinary than this.

Rick Archer: Yeah, true. But I mean, you know, let’s say you go to a drug rehabilitation rehabilitation clinic, and you speak to a bunch of people who have really gone through a difficult time and, or to a prison or something. And you say this, there’s nothing other than this. Well, there this might be quite different than your this material. materialistic way. Yes. Different perspective, you know? Yes. And so this whole thing of there’s nothing other than this, sometimes I think sells it short, because it implies that whatever anybody is experiencing is all there is to it. And there’s a vast range of capacity of possibility in terms of enhancing or unfolding or clarifying your capacity for experience so that life doesn’t you know, look like a dismal mess and you feel inclined to throw yourself in front of a train.

Moksha Mukti: See, right there is the problem that when you say capacity of the problem right now, whether you don’t have a capacity, right now what I say what I point out is right now you have capacity you see, but you know, your thought structure is limiting you saying, you know, that there is something different in terms of material, you know, by being doing this, that you can experience something extraordinary see, I am having an extraordinary experience. Now, you see your yes. But, you know, if people, you know, you if you want something other than this, you know, I could be sitting on a beach, you know, what do you what are you implying I could be sitting on the beach, you know, listening to the beach, that could be more extroverted than this? No, I said, No, this is that

Rick Archer: would be sitting on a beach, and

Moksha Mukti: that that’s the degree or the materialistic approach to see, you know, by being this by, you know, being drug free, by being alcohol free by, you know, stress free, you know, you experience this Enlightenment, no, you know, I say, even if you drink in a drunkard, you know, drink every day, and one day, he can wake up and be enlightened, you know, like, whatever, you know,

Rick Archer: it’s possible, but it’s your way out on the fringes of the bell curve. If that happens. If you’re systematically destroying your nervous system, the likelihood of of awakening is I’d say less than if you’re systematically culturing and purifying it.

Moksha Mukti: That is the touch structure, that is the way of putting in terms of language, that is the way we are taught, that is the way we are conditioned, you know, that is the way you are speaking, yes.

Rick Archer: It’s also what we actually see in the real world. You know, we see people who have, I’m gonna have an interview guy next week, who was a serious drug addict for many years. And he eventually came out of it, I don’t know when what he thinks of himself in terms of awakened or not, but he wouldn’t trade his old condition for his current one, because he was doing so much damage to himself and it was warping his percepts perspective so severely, that it was making his life and those around him utterly miserable. And, you know, where he is, today is a far cry from that. So, you know, they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder, what I’m saying is that the eye of the beholder has a wide range of possibilities from hellish to heavenly. And that, you know, one can actually even though ultimately, there may be no doer and no chooser, and no free will, for for all appearances, one can actually make choices and then take actions, which can move you in the more toward the more pleasant phases of that spectrum.

Moksha Mukti: Again, actually, I wanted to go back and touch up what he said, You see, okay, there is the idea that is out there, see, and you have that idea in you, that is speaking in terms of, you know, what is this is the way things should be, you see, so through their idea, we are saying, you know, by having X and Y or ABC, that this person is going to be less miserable, this person is going to make the society less miserable. Because we are putting the idea there you see, and that is all coming from the idea. So what I am speaking is it’s coming from the natural expression, or the natural natural thought process, or whatever it is not even thought process I don’t even was coming from it is coming from spontaneously. So, even the idea is actually is false, because the idea is present there. And I’m not saying you know, if I go back into real world, I’m not saying no, like, you know, have you live your life miserable? No. But see, what I’m pointing out is the idea that drives this things, you see, by saying like, you know, this is the way the idea is this is the ideal model is and everyone should be like that. And that is what I’m saying. It’s false.

Rick Archer: Yeah, everyone shouldn’t be like anything. I mean, there’s always going to be variety, like you two leaves, no two leaves are the same. No two people are the same. But what I’m suggesting is that actions do have consequences. And the consequences of one’s actions, one’s choices can make one either more happy, more mysterious, and you know that as long as one appears to have volition, it can be exercised and can kind of steer the course of one’s life in one direction or another. I’d like to take an end to take an example of the the kind of practical utility of this spiritual stuff, Ganga Ji, for instance, you probably heard of Ganga G. Back in the old days, did a lot of prison programs and she was visiting prisons and Colorado and, and elsewhere and a number of people who are now you know, living pretty happy, well adjusted lives were in those prisons and who had contact with Gangaji. And it really transformed them like John Sherman and Kenny Johnson, both of whom I’ve interviewed You’d. So I’ve just there’s this kind of notion that in this popular in some spiritual circles, that there’s no causality between anything one does or engages in, and a spiritual transformation, or, you know, and it can that can kind of, I think, lead to nihilism, you know, where one feels like, Well, why do anything then. But you see time and time again, that when people do engage in something like this interaction these guys had with Gandhiji, it can be transformative. And so I’ve just kind of saying that to play devil’s advocate, because you kept insisting that nothing you had done prior to this awakening in 2000, none could have had anything to do with it. And and I’m suggesting that they very well seem that way. But I’m skeptical.

Moksha Mukti: I see. Yeah, you’re right. I mean, that is the that is, again, you know, I want to go back to the comprehensive collective knowledge, we have collected millions years, and actually, that is driving you and I, and that model gives us the idea that certain things should be this way, you see, and that is actually driving the human race today. And, you know, billions of human beings, I would say about 99 person, billion human beings follow that structure, and, and try to, you know, fit themselves into that type of model, you see, and what I’m pointing out is that the, you know, well, you mentioned, Ganga, Ji, you know, who, you know, she, you know, went to the prison and, you know, point this to people that there is a you know, I don’t know what she pointed but if I were her, I would say no, there is a reality with our and reality with the big capital R. And, you know, you this is all loosen if you don’t attach too much yourself to this reality, the reality that, you know, maybe give you more peace, you know, that’s all I can say, you know, I can tell them, you know, I can certainly, you know, point them to have more peaceful within whatever they are. But you know, what I’m pointing out that is not the real reality See, even the peace that is there such such thing as a peace even I questioned peace.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Well, you know, Ganga Ji may have said something like that, to those people, I don’t know what she did, she also has a certain presence and presence can be contagious, there can be a transmission kind of value, that, you know, even without saying anything like Ramana, Maharshi, a lot of times didn’t say very much he just sat around, but his presence was transformative to those who were in his vicinity. So I guess maybe I’m saying spirituality is contagious? One question that occurred that my wife actually brought it up to me just passed me a note. She said, apart from any practices, did you have a spiritual desire or thirst? You know, practice awakening? I mean, you kind of said you did you were reading books and listening to songs? And also there must have been a thirst there must have been an intention or some kind of desire,

Moksha Mukti: who who doesn’t desire for something great. Yes, some

Rick Archer: people don’t. Or some of these, they don’t set their sights as high as perhaps you did. They could think, oh, what I really want is a new car. You know? Not everybody does. I mean, most people have material aspirations, like, like you said, that 99% Which in this case, has a negative connotation are primarily concerned with tangible stuff that are concerned with what you’re alluding to, which is much more kind of abstract?

Moksha Mukti: Certainly, certainly. See, Rick, everyone, as far as for some desire, without desire, you know, I don’t think this dynamic would function. I agree, you know, so desire is there even there is today but attachment is the desire is not here. That’s a good point. So desire is always there, you know, desire actually drives the whole humanity. Yeah. Or the, you know, even the, I think the universe created us through desire. So desire is there. And you see, the desire for material things, like, you know, car, you know, being a rock star superstar, or having a millionaire, you know, become a big house, you know, see that desire and becoming enlightened person. I don’t see the difference there.

Rick Archer: I agree. I mean, it’s the same basic fundamental craving for more for happiness. You know, I think I think I’ve maybe heard you say that a lot in your talks that ultimately what one is looking for is happiness, or am I thinking of somebody else? But you know, whether it’s a car or a mansion or fame, or Enlightenment, there’s, I think the fundamental motivation is the same.

Moksha Mukti: Yeah, because he, even you do spiritual practice to you know, become a spiritual person, you know, to have the spiritual power is he who does you know, the spiritual community like like priest and you know, whoever it was, some people do,

Rick Archer: but I don’t think some people are perhaps more simple In sincere in their motivation, they’re not thinking I want spiritual power, it’s more like they just want truth they want, they want to live a true and meaningful and they don’t they want to come out of any sort of delusion or confusion, they just want to know what’s real. That’s their motivation, pure and simple.

Moksha Mukti: Well, you know, some people maybe but you know, a lot of people who if you’re seeking, you know, like, if I want to go back to this, you know, if you said, you know, there’s a difference between seeking for the, you know, material desire versus spiritual desire, what I say is both are thought induce desire. So both are thought and material, they’re the same. So if you’ve been thinking that thought and the desire, they’re the same thing, yeah. Because see, if you boil down to the thought, you see the thought is the wave function, electromagnetic field. So wavefunction, if you narrow down to even this material, the leaf you see, in a thought, and the leaf, they are the same, because it is also wavefunction part is away from the sun. And you know, you probably heard Yogi’s in India who have produced orange in their hand with their thoughts, so they can fulfill their, you know, hunger.

Rick Archer: Yeah, you read about the autobiography of the yogi and so on. But, you know, on your point, I think one thing is the next, you know, there there, as you say, perhaps the whole creation came about through desire, he said that a minute ago, and, and each of us being kind of an expression of our aspect of creation, is motivated by the same fundamental tendency that maybe gave rise to creation itself, which is, you know, greater and greater. You know, there’s a saying contact with Brahman is infinite joy. And it seems that the whole flow of life is in the direction of greater and greater happiness, you know, or at least an attempt that greater and greater happiness. And one thing leads to the next, you know, and you get the new car and you find, oh, that didn’t make me happy, I want a bigger car, I want a bigger house. And eventually, I kind of realized, it seems like none of these material things are gonna make me happy. Maybe there’s something non material that could make me happy and then maybe you start searching in the spiritual direction.

Moksha Mukti: Yes, certainly your linear thought will point like that linear thought will emphasize that this event will lead to that event and this event will look better I said no, because what is happening is happening independently and it is happening dynamically See, no two events can relate to one another is happening independently see all this Manik molecules? That is dancing in relationship? You see? So it’s not like, you know, you do something that lead to that. See, it’s never like that. See, what I say is you are already awakened, you know, so what you the only thing that is blocking you now is your thought, even even a tiny thought that is see is moving a finger is it is blocking you to recognize that you see you’re already enlightened, and already awakened. You see, whatever it is that is that time if that exists.

Rick Archer: So would you say that is equally true of all 7 billion people in the world that they’re already awakened are already enlightened? Yes, there

Moksha Mukti: you know, there’s no difference to how the living organism how this is functioning here and there, essentially And fundamentally, functionally exactly the same way. There’s no difference.

Rick Archer: Yeah, but you know, there’s something that blocks Yeah, I mean, so Okay, by this logic, Adolf Hitler was already enlightened Well, the guy who shot up the movie theater in Colorado A year ago,

Moksha Mukti: essentially, fundamentally, essentially, that’s the kingdom until you see what Hitler is his heart is a subtle difference, but the living organism How is functionally I’m saying the breathing mechanism, the heart is beating see right now, I can feel my heart is beating you see. And all here in this here is a hollow waver ever this person sitting is hollow thing all I can do is to feel my heartbeat. So all I hear is a heartbeat that is functioning is here and all this activity that that’s what I’m talking about, not the thought structure which is mechanical that is placed in us.

Rick Archer: But what is all this heart heart beating and everything have to do with Enlightenment or awakening? I’m

Moksha Mukti: not talking about like I’m talking about how we are functioning you see how we are functioning exactly the same way see the heart is beating here.

Rick Archer: Ya know, same is true of a chipmunk. I mean, his heart is beating. But But when you say that everyone is already enlightened, then my question is all right, fine. Essentially they are but the name of the game is is realizing it not just

Moksha Mukti: meant to your thoughts. Even you know moving this finger is a part in that is blocking you to recognize.

Rick Archer: Okay, and so when you had your awakening, you kind of in a moment in an instant got unattached to everything, but you don’t know how it happened to you. And

Moksha Mukti: no, there is no way it just happened. This is no way not and you know, you may say pure luck, or by the grace of God, if we exist, you see, yeah, like say,

Rick Archer: I interviewed a guy a couple years ago that was crossing a parking lot and a car almost hit him and tires screeched. And you know, he was shocked. And he awoke. And that was it. He didn’t change back after that he was away, I

Moksha Mukti: guess let me actually point you I had earlier thought to, you know, what you just wanted to say I want to do, I don’t want to miss that. Even a tiny insect that is crawling on the ground, see, even this leaf falling from the tree, you see, even this conversation, even the word I say hello, or something, you see, or something that you read in the book, you see, these are all coincidence, you see, what is happening, the awakening, I say I point out is that is happening spontaneously, through without you, you have no control that is happening. And it is just a coincidence that you happen to be sitting in the temple, or you happen to sit in with the guru, or you happen to listen to me or you have to listen to someone else, or you have to listen to, you know, some great person, you know, great personality, whoever that is, you know? So see, those things are just poor incidents, you see, and certainly, you know, if the person has been through this spiritual training and learning, you know, experienced this, and they recognize this right away, and they say, Oh, this now I know I am awakened. But see the there are millions of people who are already awakened. You see, they do not recognize that. Well, they recognize that particularly, but they don’t know how to speak the words the like, you and I are speaking so you know, we don’t know who they are. But they these people exist?

Rick Archer: Well, I think there’s truth to that. I think more especially these days, it seems more and more people are awakening. And in many cases, they don’t have any kind of spiritual background, and they don’t know what it is at first. And yeah, and maybe after they have the awakening, then they start searching. I mean, Eckhart Tolle was an example. After the awakening, then he started putting the pieces together. But I still think that, you know, it’s like if you hang, to use your temple example, but that make it more metaphorical. If you hang out in a temple, you’re going to come out smelling like incense, if you hang out in a bar, you’re going to come out smelling like alcohol and tobacco. So you know, what you wish was when my father smelled when he came home every night? Well, according to watch you do, and company you keep. And this is actually a point that’s emphasized a great deal in the Vedic tradition, is that the company of the Enlightened is a very powerful technique in and of itself, for getting enlightened.

Moksha Mukti: Yes, yes. What I’m saying is that even that putting into into that situation, so you have no way of, you know, you also say, Well, I made a choice to be there. But see, what I’m pointing out is, you don’t have a choice. The choice is happening spontaneously, and you happen to you know, it appears that many events that lead it to that point, this is linear thinking, and you are there happen to be in this community, great community, and you stay there many years, and you happen to be unlike what I’m pointing out is that that is happening dynamically and you are enlightened, you know, if the such thing exists. And, you know, now you say, Well, you know, because I am in this present group of people, then I am enlightened, you know, that is just the way of, you know,

Rick Archer: not because you’re in the group, I’m just saying that certain associations can be more conducive to it than others certain activities more conducive than others. And if you say that there is actually nothing you can do whatsoever, it doesn’t matter what you do, it’s either going to happen or it’s not. And you’re already there, even if you don’t know it, it doesn’t give people much to go on. And you know that I mean, the 7 billion people in the world, fine. They’re all enlightened on some level, but most of them don’t have any inkling of that such a thing even exists. It’s not really a practical instruction. You know, it’s not it’s not going to

Moksha Mukti: be able to if there is a such a practical instruction is there is no instructions.

Rick Archer: I think there is I think that you know, one can give practical advice, one can give talks that can be conducive to enlivening this yes, there can there can be a value. I mean, you go to like a lot of people who, for instance, I’m using him as a case in point because I like him a lot. Adyashanti a lot of people who go to his satsangs end up having these awakenings, even some people who’ve been like seeking for decades, and then they go and they hear him say a few things and something clicks. You know, they probably wouldn’t have gotten that that day, if they just stayed home and watch the football game.

Moksha Mukti: Again, I think you’re missing a point what I’m pointing is that even going to that event is totally unrelated and totally independent. Because what is meant to happen it is it happens you sitting down even in the bar, you know, you’re drunk, you see, you’re enlightened. That is totally under it. But what I’m very

Rick Archer: unlikely I have no I don’t know how many bars you’ve hung out and maybe you have but I haven’t found too many enlightened people in them.

Moksha Mukti: I mean, said again, you know, the Enlightened whatever this this what we’re talking about ACDC totally unrelated to anything that we do, you know, the Guru’s and these people who sell you in the marketplace, you know? They will they’ll sell you in the marketplace. There’s all these ideas and beliefs, you know, somebody, I heard that they’re doing this tantric sex, you know, to enlightened people, which is totally rubbish because you know, you cannot enlightened people by doing a tantric sex or LA, you know, the doing this through yoga, some of the all the things you see, because there is this gurus, they’re actually selling this in the marketplace. So it’s a big business.

Rick Archer: Oh, I agree. I mean, there’s a lot of nonsense out there, there’s a lot of crazy stuff that people do. I mean, it’s a whole huge potpourri of different things. And, and I’m not suggesting that everything is of equal value, that all teachers are of equal usefulness. I mean, it’s, it’s a real hodgepodge. And, you know, you kind of gravitate toward what attracts you, I suppose, but, but the only point I’m making is that it’s not all just sort of haphazard, and that there are causal relationships, you just have to choose your teacher wisely, choose your practice wisely, if you’re going to do one, to the best of your knowledge and keep your eyes open. There’s a lot of spiritual casualties, a lot of people who get really traumatized or disillusioned by association with teachers and so on. But there’s some good ones, and you can’t just throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Moksha Mukti: See, I don’t even consider myself teachers. And you know, I know in this community, a lot of people don’t even consider themselves as a teacher, see, what we’re doing is we’re pointing out, and you see, the real guru, what I say is already within you, you see, it’s here, the source is here, that shirt that knows you see, that Guru is here that is, you know, in Sanskrit word I call his Maha guru, which is, you know, the guru of the Guru is already here. So those guys are just pointing out look into their look into their look into their so

Rick Archer: most of them say that, you know, guys like Ramana, Maharshi, they probably said those very words to people, the real guru is within Yes, yeah. But it doesn’t mean that there’s no value whatsoever. And having an external guru, if that’s your inclination, it’s not that it has no significance whatsoever for a person. You know, I mean, a lot of people who listen to the show, I’ve gotten some great reports of, you know, kind of gotten into some kind of association with someone I’ve interviewed, you know, after having seen them on the show, and have undergone a dramatic shift as a result of that association. So if that happens, great. And oh, I mean, who is who am I? are you to say that it couldn’t happen or shouldn’t happen or anything?

Moksha Mukti: I don’t, I’m not saying you know, I’m not for a moment saying that, you know, you shouldn’t do anything, you shouldn’t go to this guru or that Guru. He should practice this, you know, I’m not saying anything like that. Well, what I’m saying is what I experienced here is totally unrelated to anything, any event in life. That’s No, I

Rick Archer: understand that since you, you’re speaking from your experience, and I respect that. But let’s not take our own experience as the sort of the universal truth that it’s going to apply that way for everybody. It was that way for you.

Moksha Mukti: Okay. Okay. I mean, I don’t want to sound like that. And like I said, I go back, and I see this being like, is speaking, you know, is singing my tune? You know, other people will sing their own tune, it’s different tune. So yes, everyone has seen different tunes to get the piece of the resources that is available to us. So every wants to get the piece of resources that is available to us, to them. So that’s what everyone is doing. We are singing our tune, you see? Yeah. And, you know, but the commitment here, you know, as I said, you know, I had a appointment to go to St. Louis, which I cancelled to be here because this was the commitment is the commitment here is with the truth. See, and the truth that you see is actually is nothing that you imagine to be see, again, I’m speaking from my experience. Yeah, the truth I see is totally nothing that I thought before I tell before, it’s totally different. And, you know, the truth that we speak today is trivial truth, like, you know, like my name, address, telephone number, you know, what I do? You know, this is my family. This is my house, my car. So those are only trivial truth, but I’m the truth I’m speaking about the real truth is, is totally nothing like what I imagined. Oh, that’s great.

Rick Archer: I appreciate that. And a lot of people said that to that here. Even Even people who read a lot of books and study a lot of stuff and everything, when it actually dawns on them, sometimes they don’t even know what the heck it is, because they’re, it’s so different than their, their, what they conceived of beforehand. You know, so that’s great. Well, that’s a good note to perhaps start to wrap it up on I mean, there’s, you know, there’s a, you look at a beautiful garden this time of year, and there’s all these different flowers and plants and diversity and all that and that’s kind of what the garden of God is like, you know, there’s, there’s you there’s 183 other people I’ve interviewed and 1000 people on my waiting list and a million million people who aren’t even on the waiting list who would be equally interesting to talk to, and each one is a different expression like your two He leaves. And, you know, even in the spiritual camp, they’re all saying something fundamentally the same, but each unique in its own way. And I think each one has its value, its contribution to make, you know, I mean, if, if, if Robin Pandy was the only guy in the whole world talking about this stuff, then there was gonna be boring, boring stuff, the way God operates, you know, God seems to operate in terms of just sort of abundant diversity and multitudes of variety and good. Well, I, I hope you feel like this was worth your while, I was a little bit argumentative, but I felt like I just wanted to make it a lively discussion. And sorry, you had to miss your thing in St. Louis, I hope you have another opportunity to do that.

Moksha Mukti: This is this will come I don’t worry about that. Yeah. So yeah, it I do enjoy, you know, talking with you. And you know, this is all, like you said, it’s a dynamic experience. And, you know, I enjoy being here today. And I don’t see as an argument, Rick, I mean, I see this as all part of this floor, lively discussions. Yeah. It’s, it’s all part of the truth. And the more argument I have, I feel good, because you know, that leads. Again, I don’t want to say leads, but that points you to the truth. So

Rick Archer: no, I know what you mean. I’m at I used to give lectures myself on meditation. And I really appreciated it when there was somebody in the audience who really kind of gave me a hard time, you know, because it would really bring out a lot more than if they all sat there. Exactly. Good. So let me make a couple of wrap up points. I’ve been speaking with Robin Pandy or mukta mukta. Many people adopt a spiritual name these days, and he’s known as mocha mocha Moochie. I’ll be linking to his website. I guess you have a Google Plus page and a YouTube channel. Do you have an actual website or No,

Moksha Mukti: I have a WordPress in a robbing pan.

Rick Archer: Yeah, send me the link to that and I’ll link to that your YouTube your all the things

Moksha Mukti: and I have a couple of books

Rick Archer: Okay, I’ll link to those as well. Waves metamorphosis rising into Revelation is one I believe, is that right?

Moksha Mukti: Yes. Did I get that right metamorphose Morpheus Morpheus ng i think more for not more precisely more pausing.

Rick Archer: Okay, good. And good. So and then

Moksha Mukti: obviously through the other one, otherwise ever perpetuating present moment.

Rick Archer: Right, right. And people can get in touch with you through your website, through your through your WordPress blog,

Moksha Mukti: if they interested, if they wish. Yeah,

Rick Archer: watch the YouTube videos. So few wrap up points, as I always like to make about is an acronym for Buddha at the Gas Pump. If you happen to be watching this on YouTube, for instance, you could go to And there you’ll have a whole you’ll see the whole thing or all the interviews that have been done so far, with a both an alphabetical and a chronological index. There’s a discussion group that pops up around each interview in case you want to get chatting about things that have been discussed in the interview. There’s a Donate button, which I rely upon people clicking occasionally, in order to keep the whole thing rolling. There is a link to an audio podcast so you can get this on iTunes and just listen to the audio. And there is a tab that you can click to sign up to be notified by email each time a new interview is posted. So that’s it. Thanks for listening or watching. Thank you very much moksha. And yeah, we’ll say to those who’ve been listening or watching we’ll see you next week. Next week is going to be this fellow a referred to named Tom Catan, who really had a hell of an experience with it, his drug days and through spirituality came out of it. And I found his story quite heroic. And I felt like he deserved an interview and that it might help people who are going through similar things to him. So thanks again. Talk to you later. Bye.

Moksha Mukti: Thank you