Moksha Mukti Interview

Summary:

• Introduction: Rick Archer introduces Moksha Mukti, also known as Robin Pandey.
• Origin of the Name: Moksha Mukti explains that his name appeared in a dream and signifies liberation.
• Spiritual Awakening: He describes a profound spiritual awakening in 2009 that lasted several months and wiped out all attachment to conditioning.
• Concept of Conditioning: Mukti emphasizes that while conditioning remains, the attachment to it is what gets dissolved.
• Life Participation: Post-awakening, Mukti’s participation in life has strengthened, and he engages fully and passionately.
• Illusory Realities: He discusses the illusory nature of thoughts, feelings, and emotions, which all arise from one source—Reality.
• Unity with Life: Mukti talks about the unity and intimacy with all life and the illusion of attachment.
• Transformation Experience: He shares the painful experience of transformation and the correlation between spiritual practice and awakening.
• Natural Expression: Mukti highlights the natural expression of thought and the illusion of reality.
• Practical Advice: He offers practical advice for enlightenment and the importance of choosing wisely in causal relationship.

Full transcript:

Rick: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer and my guest this week or today is Robin Pandey, who also goes by the name of Moksha Mukti. Did you give yourself that name, Moksha Mukti, or got it from some teacher or what?

Moksha: It’s interesting how I got this name. Actually, it appeared in my dream, you know. So, I got it from my dream, you know. A lot of things.

Rick: Something just came to you, like… Yes. Don’t Moksha and Mukti mean the same thing? Don’t they both mean liberation or do they have different meanings?

Moksha: It means the same thing, but actually it is also my stage name. I also do other things. And to put it into stage, Moksha Mukti is like first name and last name. That’s why.

Rick: Stage name meaning you do some performing, some singing, some things like that?

Moksha: Yes.

Rick: I listened to a bunch of your recordings, several hours worth, and also read a lot of the stuff that you wrote. I heard you alluding to an event that happened in 2009, some kind of awakening or shift or something, but I never quite found a description of the event itself. Maybe you wrote it and I didn’t get to it. But can you tell us about that?

Moksha: Well, see, this speaker, right now who is speaking, you know, experienced something which is, what I can tell you is extraordinary. And I can’t really put words to describe what has happened at that time. Only thing I can tell you is that it was extraordinary experiencing. That lasted for about several months, you see. And what is left after that experience is Moksha Mukti. Because what happened was it wiped out all the conditioning. That or I would say attachment to the conditioning was completely wiped out. See, It’s not here anymore. I am not attached to anything, any desire, any conditioning. You know.

Rick: So that’s an important distinction, actually, isn’t it? That it wiped out the attachment to the conditioning, because if it wiped out the conditioning you wouldn’t know how to play the guitar anymore, brush your teeth or anything else.

Moksha: Yeah, exactly. You see, we cannot separate ourselves from the conditioning. I hear in a lot of spiritual communities that you give up your conditioning. You cannot give up your conditioning. That’s why even after this so-called awakening; I am still participating in life fully and passionately. You know. Actually, my heart is strengthened after this.

Rick: Yeah. Did the awakening, I mean, had you been a spiritual practitioner or seeker or something before this awakening?

Moksha: Well, I have to be careful how I answer to this question. Because, you see, although you are seeking the spiritual, whatever you are seeking, you see, that event actually is independent to what has happened to me. It’s not a related event. So, see, the thought structure we have is actually trying to box within its limitation. You know. So within the limitations it tries to box everything and tries to structure everything which is limited.

Rick: And tries to assign causality.

Moksha: Exactly.

Rick: But, you know, to give a simple answer, I heard you mention Deepak Chopra. I don’t know if you were studying with Deepak Chopra or what, but had you been doing some sort of meditation? Or, I mean, you are from Nepal originally, so that kind of thing is indigenous to your culture. But you weren’t sort of a gambling, alcoholic, crazy man who all of a sudden woke up one day. There must have been some kind of something leading up to it.

Moksha: Again, I have to be careful here, because when you say leading, that means, this would be misleading to say that by doing ABC, that will take you somewhere. That is misleading. And see, we humans have been misleading or mislead by the so-called spiritual forerunners. They have been saying that by doing yoga, by meditation, by sadhana, or whatever, somehow, some point, you will be enlightened. Whatever that may be. But I don’t see it like that.

Rick: How do you see it?

Moksha: See, this is an independent event. How it happens, when it happens, where it happens, you have no way of knowing it.

Rick: So this event, let’s say, we could call it enlightenment or awakening or whatever word is convenient, and no word really does justice to it, I’m sure. But if we did a scientific study, and let’s say we took a statistically significant sampling of the population and control groups and so on, and we had one group that was practicing spiritual practices, and maybe we could make it a big study, have ten different spiritual practices, each group practicing a different one, and then ten different groups who are doing nothing whatsoever, or some of them are taking drugs, and some of them are just not in the least bit. Don’t you think that there would be a higher predominance of spiritual awakenings among the people who are doing the spiritual practices? I mean, doesn’t it kind of pan out that way in our society? We see that happening, don’t we?

Moksha: Certainly, the way our thought structure, again I want to go back to thought structure, the way it is structured, you see, it is structured by what I call comprehensive collective knowledge. We have collected knowledge since the beginning of the time, or beginning of the existence of man, whenever that existed, if such thing occurred. Since then, we have collected this knowledge, and that actually is responsible for framing our structure or the condition of our thought. So, within that framework, a lot of studies, people put a lot of studies, which is actually, study is the repetition of thoughts. So, when you are repeating your thoughts for such a long period of time, you end up coming up with what they call as an idea, a profound idea, and that idea is responsible for labeling, like by practicing this, you will succeed, by practicing this you will fail. And now I have to be careful because that exists in our functioning in the society. We have to function in the society, and to function in the society we have to accept that process, but in what I call as awakening or whatever it is, it is totally unrelated to that.

Rick: Okay, so you have a guitar sitting behind you, and I presume you know how to play it, and you didn’t wake up one morning knowing how to play the guitar, you practiced and you learned, and you were probably really bad at it at first, and then you gradually got better and maybe now you are pretty good at it. So, practice resulted in your ability to play the guitar, but you are saying that doesn’t pertain in the spiritual realm.

Moksha: Well, see again I have to be careful here, because I understand exactly what you are talking about. Yes, without playing, without practicing I cannot be good at playing guitar. Without practicing, even speaking, I wouldn’t be able to speak as good as what I am speaking now, I don’t know how good is that. So practice makes one perfect, because what we experience is the repetition of thoughts, so if you repeat your thoughts, you become good at it. Any, You can learn anything you want, from operating a camera to playing a keyboard, or becoming a scientist. Even Einstein, he spent 25 years focusing on something, repeating his thoughts for 25 years, he came up with something so profound that everybody looks up to him, he is such a great being. But, you see, even what he says, I can refute that, and one day his theory will be outdated.

Rick: So what you are saying is that relative knowledge, such as a scientist might acquire through study and practice and investigation, eventually gets overturned and refuted. Well, let’s say, take Einstein as an example, since you brought him up, relativity theory, general and special relativity, came along as a completely new understanding of the way the universe functions, but it didn’t refute Newtonian physics, it just added an understanding of a different layer of nature’s functioning. Newtonian, kind of more superficial gross layer of functioning, relativity theory deals with a deeper phenomenon. So, I am not sure where we are going with this, but in terms of relative knowledge and relative understanding, yes, by definition it is relative and therefore always has, it’s not absolute, it’s not ultimate, final, permanent, but it has its usefulness.

Moksha: Exactly, you hit the right word, Rick, usefulness.

Rick: yeah. It serves a function.

Moksha: Yes, what they provide is their assumption, they assert it with presenting all these ideas, and we accept those ideas because we are conditioned to accept that.

Rick: And it serves its usefulness.

Moksha: Exactly.

Rick: The laws of physics of various types have given us airplanes and iPads and all kinds of inventions and so on, it has a practicality to it.

Moksha: Yes, it has a practicality and that’s all there is to it. They assert their ideas and people accept that as a gospel truth or scientific evidence, But see, all theories, what I am pointing out is, all theories are false, but like you said, they are useful.

Rick: So, are they really false or are they just not complete? In other words, they each provide a little piece of the puzzle, but they are not the whole puzzle.

Moksha: No, I say they are false.

Rick: Okay, so let’s take a theory. The theory of, I don’t know, relativity, which I don’t completely understand because I am not a physicist, but E=mc2, energy equals the speed of light, matter times the speed of light squared, is that false?

Moksha: I say it’s false.

Rick: Why?

Moksha: It is false because what they are using is what they call as a thought structure. Thought structure is limited, it does not know the reality. At one point humans believed, the theory believed that the earth is flat, and at that time, if you were there, whatever that time is, you would believe that the earth is flat, and if you and I were having a conversation at that time, you would say the earth is flat, but today everyone is saying the earth is round, and I have to accept that, if I don’t accept the earth is round, everybody will call me a loony, right?

Rick: There are some people out there who still believe it’s flat, they actually have a website.

Moksha: Yeah, but now, quantum physics, the new physics, they are saying that the earth is a hologram, so would you believe the earth is round or a hologram? Again, what I am pointing out is that these scientists will come up in the community and they are useful, and I accept them for their usefulness, but I say all theories are false because what they are doing is they are asserting, this is the right way to do it.

Rick: I think if we acknowledge that no theory or bit of scientific information or even personal experience can grasp totality, but each has its specific realm of applicability, then we don’t have to say it’s false. For instance, Einstein’s theory of relativity was proven by an experiment in which it was discovered that starlight is bent by the gravity of the sun. And someone came to Einstein and said, “What would you have done if the theory had been disproven?” He said, “I would have been sorry for the dear Lord because the theory is right.” He knew that, and it hasn’t been disproven, it has its relative truth, but it’s just not the total picture of the functioning of reality, it’s just one aspect of it, just as gravity is just one aspect to it. You can take it to another level and gravity doesn’t exist, it’s invalid, it’s false, you could say, to use your words.

Moksha: Yeah, exactly, you’re right. Again, I have to be careful because I do have a profession, and if somebody hears me talking about this, they will say, “This guy is absurd.” But no, I do accept the reality, again I want to point out two realities here. One is, I would say, in my book it is there, a reality I say with a small ‘r’ and the reality with a capital ‘R’.

Rick: There you go, that helps.

Moksha: The reality that you are talking about with a small ‘r’, those things are all, I accept that, yes.

Rick: Relative realities.

Moksha: Yes, I accept that, and those are only illusory realities, which we accept that. And we accept them because what we have is a mental mechanism that is placed in us, that mechanism and through that mechanism it separates us. You and I separate these objects around us, there is a glass, there is a leaf, actually I brought these two leaves here, we will talk about this in a minute, I was taking a walk this morning, and this happened to be there, anyway I am going off the subject. So all this separateness is there through this, what I call, mental mechanism. If we don’t have this camera in front of us now, and if there is no headset to hear, we wouldn’t be able to see each other. Right? So, similarly what I am pointing is that the mental mechanism that we have, that lets us see the separateness. So that tells us that we are separate, we are individual beings, we are independent, and we are separate. So that is happening through that mechanism.

Rick: Right. And that doesn’t seem to be an accident, it seems to be kind of the way the universe is designed, there is all these mechanisms through which separateness is perceived, and yet I think what you are pointing to is that that’s not the whole picture, right? There is a deeper reality which is not separate.

Moksha: Yes, yes, deeper reality. Actually I have an analogy I want to make, if I may.

Rick: Sure.

Moksha: I have this picture in front of me here.

Rick: Oh yes, one of those things where if you look at it long enough you find something in it.

Moksha: So I am sure people have seen it, you have seen this type of picture. So my analogy here is that the universe that I see as the picture, there is nothing there, just like the picture.

Rick: In the universe?

Moksha: Universe.

Rick: So clarify that, there is nothing in the universe, what are you saying?

Moksha: Okay. Just like this picture right here, there is nothing here, right?

Rick: Right.

Moksha: Just the dots and whatever.

Rick: Lots of patterns and dots, yes.

Moksha: Yes. So the universe is like this, and we have this instrument, mental instrument.

Rick: Which gives some sense to it or some interpretation.

Moksha: Exactly, exactly. So through this instrument we see all these objects, we see all these illusory things, we see everything that includes thoughts, feelings, emotions, love, hatred, everything and everything. You see, is the interpretation of the mind. And if you look through that picture for a long period of time, you will see there is something there. You see. And that is the interpretation of mind. So the whole universe is like this, dots, dots, dots, molecules, tons of molecules. And yes and that is interpreted by the mind, and mind sees as something. So what we are doing here is the total interpretation of the mind.

Rick: Ok, I think I get your point. So if there were ten beings in the room with you, there is you, there is a mouse, there is a chameleon, there is a housefly, there is a bat, a cat, a bunch of different beings. Each one, they are all in the same room, but each one is interpreting completely differently, seeing something completely different. So what you are saying is we are all like little filters that sort of just give a little perspective on a much larger reality without actually appreciating what’s really there. Are you saying that?

Moksha: Yes, somewhat, Rick. You are right, the interpretation, it’s the interpretation of the equipment. Just to give you an analogy, you have some different equipment, I couldn’t see you clearly, but now you have different equipment, I see you clearly. So we see through the different equipment, but that is not the true picture of the reality. You see.

Rick: Right, and even from a scientific perspective we are told that we only experience a little tiny fraction of the electromagnetic field as visible light and we only hear a little tiny portion of potential sounds that could be heard, like compared to a dog or something, or smell, we only smell it. So we are very limited in terms of our sensory experience in interpreting what’s really happening. Is this the direction you are going in with this?

Moksha: Well, certainly, you are right, it is certainly limited, but the direction, I think what I am pointing out is that the mind is certainly limited, but what I am pointing is, it is not the true picture of the reality.

Rick: Yeah.

Moksha: I think we are here having this conversation, in this platform, I think we are talking about reality is the reality and my expression is totally radical, because this is going beyond the reality that is apparently available right now. Does that make sense?

Rick: Yeah, I think it does, I think what you are leading toward is to say that one can somehow open oneself up to or be appreciative of or experience a deeper reality which is far more vast than all these individual perceptions that are imposed, you know, the limitations that are imposed upon us by our physical senses. Is that what you are getting at? I don’t mean to put words in your mouth, but I am trying to understand where we are going with this logic.

Moksha: Again, I want to go back again to reality with a small ‘r’.

Rick: Capital ‘R’.

Moksha: Capital ‘R’, yes. And the mental instrument we have, whatever instrument we have does not know the reality. There is no way we know the reality through this instrument.

Rick: Right.

Moksha: But there is something within you that is peculiar, that knows the reality, that is connected to the reality, that is already available to you right this moment.

Rick: And is that what happened in 2009 when you had your big awakening? Was there some kind of opening to that reality with a capital ‘R’?

Moksha: You see, it knows the certainty I have, whatever this living organism that is functioning here dynamically, the energy behind that, it knows, it gives me authority to speak on behalf of that. See, I cannot put into language, describing what has happened. Even that is awakening, even I question whether there is awakening. Even this is a dream, I think this is a dream. There is no difference between the dream that we dream at night time and this. Obviously there is a degree, you know, there is a separating concreteness that we experience now while we are sleeping. But even in dream I see this lion, I am sure people have seen a lion chasing you, you are trying to run away from lion and you really believe that you are going like this, going like this, you are afraid your heart is beating, all this happening and you wake up. It is a dream, a lion.

Rick: Yeah. So I think throughout history people have said, “Well, you can’t really put this into words.” Many, many, many people have had spiritual awakenings and enlightenment or whatever and they have all said words can’t really express it. And that is not actually such a big mystical thing. Words can’t express what the color red is. You try to describe color red, you don’t have any words for it. Well, it’s red.

Moksha: Is it red?

Rick: Yeah, you can only use words to give a hint of what things are. And what you are alluding to is something which is not a sensory experience, right? It’s beyond the senses and so therefore it’s even harder to put into words because you can’t compare it to anything sensory. You can’t say, “Well, it’s like tasting an orange” or “It’s like looking at a sunset.” It’s not a sensory experience.

Moksha: Exactly. So, see, after the awakening what is left here again is the moksha mukti and that is only interested in pointing how this is functioning here, how it is functioning dynamically, all the mechanism, all the functionality that is going on, how it is functioning. And in reality this being here is actually singing a tune or speaking, or whatever you want to call it, and some people accept this, some people reject it, and some people are in neutral, it’s really not this being’s concern.

Rick: Yeah, so what is your motivation in giving talks and satsangs and all that? What are you attempting to do or are you attempting to do anything?

Moksha: Nothing, just expressing the expression. See, the life energy, it expresses itself. It is expressing naturally, so this is all it’s doing. Even if I show you this leaf right here, that is expressing. You see. These two leaves, they come from one tree, and there are many leaves in the tree, thousands of leaves. And what this being is doing is something like this, it’s expressing uniquely. There is no being like this being here, there is no being like that being there who is speaking, and there is no being, you see, these two leaves, they are totally different. If you look closely, they are totally different. But from far they look the same or similar, but they are totally different. And each leaf is singing its tune, whether you pay attention or not, I happen to pay attention, I even pay attention to the birds that are flying, like this morning I was walking, I even see small insects that I say hello, I acknowledge. You see. Even the bird is a part of this universe, I’m sorry, the insect is also a part of this universe, that is walking, I say “hello”, because the insect is expressing. Whatever you tell me, it’s beautiful to me because I see that, even when I’m walking. And that is beautiful and I say “hello”, and this is exactly what I’m doing. This being right here, which is a living organism, that is functional dynamic, expresses and this is simply expressing, singing the tune.

Rick: So you’re just saying that you feel a kind of a kinship with all life and with all creation, there is a sort of intimacy with the birds and the bugs and the leaves and everything, and that you feel motivated to speak and make YouTube videos, just the way a bird feels motivated to sit in a tree and sing, there is just a sort of spontaneous uprising of expression.

Moksha: Yes, it is simply expressing, this energy that is dynamically expressing, it’s just taking an illusory form, this as a human being, that as a bird, that as an insect, it’s just doing that. In reality we are all one, this is all dynamic. We cannot separate in reality, but like I said, we separate, if I go back to my earlier, we separate through this mechanism, mental mechanism, that sees us separate. And if I said we are all one, let’s have a group hug, blah, blah, blah, if I do that, I cannot function in the society, the society is so powerful, it’s an illusion, but it’s a powerful illusion. This has been going on for millions and millions of years, and we have collected comprehensive collective knowledge, and this is actually driving this whole thing, and part of the illusion. And it takes energy and thought projection. If you don’t give energy to that, you cannot be part of that. If you don’t give energy to that, give attention to that, it rejects you, it throws you out, it calls you a loony, you are a loser, you are that, you are that, it throws you out of the society. And you have to accept that, because it is powerful.

Rick: So in other words, we have to give some credence to the boundaries, even though we might ultimately understand them to be illusory, in order to live a life, in order to interact with the world, make a living, feed your kids, whatever you need to do.

Moksha: Exactly, that’s what I am, I go to work, I have a regular job, I am a senior software consultant, I go in the morning, I do job, just like anyone else, but the recognition here is, I am not attached to the job. I do the job, I do it passionately, I work hard, but I am not attached to anything. I have a family, I have a wife, I have a daughter, I am passionate about them, but there is no attachment. If anything arises, I am there for them, but the attachment is not there, but the “I am passionate”, my heart is there. I don’t know if that makes sense.

Rick: Yeah. It does. Before this thing in 2009, were you attached?

Moksha: Yes, I was totally attached to everything I did, totally, totally attached. Right, and then all of a sudden, or maybe not all of a sudden, but over a period of months, as this experience unfolded, you found yourself not attached anymore. No, it was a fraction of a second, just like that.

Rick: Just like that. And so again, I am curious, you just woke up one morning and this happened, or had you been doing some kind of meditation or reading spiritual books or going to seminars or anything whatsoever?

Moksha: Again, I want to assert and point out that awakening or whatever this is, is nothing that you ever imagined. This is actually a burden in a way, because it is not something that you imagined that after awakening, “Oh, you are going to have such a peaceful experience, the great extraordinary experience all the time.” No, this is nothing that you ever imagined, this is nothing that is written in the book, this is totally different. That, you know. It is actually painful sometimes, not painful to me, but it is a painful situation to be in this position.

Rick: Why is it painful?

Moksha: It is not really painful to this being, but I am speaking in terms of language to be, it is a painful experience. It is not really painful to me, I am not in pain, but it is painful experiencing.

Rick: To whom or to what? Why are you using the word painful?

Moksha: I am using the word painful because that is the word we know from the comprehensive collective knowledge, the pain and the pleasure, there are two different things.

Rick: But you are saying that awakening could be painful or something, is that correct? I am trying to understand what you mean or why you are using the word painful.

Moksha: Again, I have to be careful because if I give you that, then you will say, “Oh, it is not painful.”

Rick: Well, you used the word though, why did you use the word?

Moksha: It is the experiencing that is like a disaster, you see. Because it wipes out all the conditioning that you are attached to at one point and it is not there anymore.

Rick: Okay, so it is kind of a radical transformation, that’s what you are saying.

Moksha: Yes, yes.

Rick: And people who have undergone such a radical transformation have often reported great fearfulness, or it really shook up their world in some way. And it wasn’t necessarily, “Oh boy, I am so glad this has happened.” It was more, “Holy mackerel, what’s happening?” Kind of a period of adjustment.

Moksha: And there is no turning back. I don’t think I could ever go back to the attachment life. You mentioned fear because actually there is no fear here, but the fear is here, you see. The fear is here, it is just like a heart. My heart is beating right now. I cannot take the heartbeat out and I cannot take the fear out of my body, you see. The fear is here. But after this experiencing, I am not interested in getting rid of my fear. I am not interested in getting rid of my heartbeat. The fear is there, I am not interested in getting rid of it. One of the fears is there, it is a part of the body. You see, when the animals attack, somebody attacks, you are in a dark place, suddenly the body gives you that fear, that is the mechanism. But the trying to get rid of the fear gives you more fear, so you are more fearful.

Rick: Right, exactly. There is an old Zen saying which is that awakening may be an accident, but spiritual practice makes you accident prone. A couple of times I have tried to ask you what was going on in your life prior to this event, prior to this awakening, and you have stepped back and hesitated to say it. So I don’t know, maybe I won’t pursue that line of questioning, we can just take a guess.

Moksha: Well, actually what I do want to point out, Rick, is that you mentioned earlier that I wanted to come back and touch upon on that. So if you practice spiritual practice, and I am not against anything, I am not against any religion, I am not against any scientist, I am not against any government, I am not against any society, I am just happy to be here. And by practicing, if you want to practice spiritual, I don’t recommend not to practice. After the awakening I don’t eat meat, I don’t drink alcohol, I just quit in a fraction of a second like that.

Rick: You had been doing those things before?

Moksha: No, I had a wine shop in my basement, I was making home wine. And I was eating meat almost every day. After this awakening, in a second, I don’t know how it happened, why it happened, this body is not interested in taking meat or drinking alcohol, it’s all gone. But let me go back to the spiritual awakening. By practicing it certainly gives you some extraordinary experiences. If you just sit here and do meditation, even today I say meditation is sleeping, but back then I used to teach meditation to people at Ohio State University in Columbus, Ohio. By doing meditation it will certainly give you extraordinary experiences, but that is not the real awakening that everyone is looking for in the spiritual community.

Rick: No, it’s just experiences which come and go, but there is a correlation between meditation practice and awakening. It’s sort of like I said in the Zen saying, it does make you accident prone. There is definitely a correlation. Who knows, maybe it’s people who are destined to have an awakening, just are inclined to do practices and there is no correlation between the two, but it sure does look like various kinds of practices that people do, culture the nervous system or somehow bring about a development which makes it more conducive or likely for some shift to take place.

Moksha: That may again bring you in the state of what they call is the enlightenment state, but again that is not the real enlightenment. Even if you come to that state, what I’m pointing out is that is not the real enlightenment. That is the experience of something extraordinary is not the real enlightenment.

Rick: I didn’t mention anything about extraordinary, but since you said that, what is the real enlightenment?

Moksha: Why are we interested in enlightenment?

Rick: Because you just brought up the word, you said that whatever spiritual practice brings you, it may be something extraordinary, but it’s not the real enlightenment. So that implies that there is something called the real enlightenment that you are referring to.

Moksha: I don’t know if there is such thing as enlightenment, but I’m just speaking in terms of language if there is such thing as enlightenment.

Rick: So whatever this state is, the shift that happened to you, you are not saying it’s enlightenment, but you are saying it’s moksa mukti, both of which are synonymous with enlightenment. Enlightenment is the western word, those are Indian, Hindu, Sanskrit words for liberation, which is what enlightenment is supposed to be. So I’m just trying to get it clear what you are talking about, what your experience is and what your understanding is of what this state that you are experiencing is.

Moksha: Yes, certainly, again, we are using the thought structure.

Rick: Which we have to do if we are going to have a conversation.

Moksha: Exactly, there is no other way. So we are using thought structure to box what has happened. From my experience, what has happened is not something that I gained, it’s something that I lost. What I lost was a total attachment to the conditioning, that’s what happened.

Rick: What else can you say about it besides losing all attachment? Is there any other? You also said you stopped eating meat and drinking alcohol, is there anything else you can say which kind of points to what it is or what it was?

Moksha: Yes, your family and your friends will be distant from you because everything you talk, you talk like this and they have no idea what you are talking about. And they know it is something great and they cannot come to your level and they say, “Come to my level.” I said, “Why do I need to come to your level? You come to my level.” So you see, it never works.

Rick: Well, you know, when the mango tree is ripe, the branches bend down so that it’s easy to pick the fruit. It should be possible for a person who is in a realized state to come to the level of the listener, whatever level that may be, and speak to them in a way which they can understand.

Moksha: Yes, but you see, I don’t see any level. People, they see as a level this level, that level. I don’t see as a level. I am just an extra, I am just a simple ordinary person. There is no level here.

Rick: But you just said that your family, “Come to my level.”

Moksha: That’s what their words, they said, “Come to my level.” I said, “No, you come to my level,” whatever that level may be.

Rick: So, on the one hand you are saying that, I don’t mean to be argumentative, but I am just trying to pin you down. On the one hand you are saying that your family couldn’t understand you anymore because you were speaking from a level or in a certain way which they couldn’t relate to.

Moksha: Natural.

Rick: Natural.

Moksha: Natural State.

Rick: And why do you feel they couldn’t relate to it? Just because it wasn’t their experience, right?

Moksha: No. Well, again, see, the whole, I would say 99% of human beings are functioning in terms of the collective comprehensive knowledge we have collected. And that knowledge is limited. And if you just use that knowledge, which we use for everyday talking, you won’t be able to grasp, you won’t be able to know what that is. But there is no knowing anyway in reality. But just to speak our language, they wouldn’t understand or know what I went through.

Rick: Okay. Now, obviously there are other languages, so to speak, that are specialized, that help people describe or discuss certain things. For instance, there is the language of mathematics, there is a certain language in music which involves notes, and a conductor of an orchestra speaks that.

Moksha: Yeah, those are all part of music.

Rick: Yeah, he speaks that language and the people in the orchestra understand that language. And there are certain languages in medicine and different fields of science and so on that are all specialized and enable people to communicate with one another in those fields. Now, in spirituality, obviously, we have a lot of terminology, a lot of scriptures, a lot of traditions and so on, which have been dedicated to or concerned with discussing the kind of thing that we’re talking about here. And maybe it’s never been perfect, you can’t really describe the experience ultimately satisfactorily, but a lot of people have been trying for thousands of years and have made pretty good efforts in terms of… You read Shankara, you read Ramana Maharshi, you read Nisargadatta, these different guys. They are contemporary people like Adyashanti. They’re pretty good at articulating something which is beyond words.

Moksha: It’s not such a thing as articulating beyond words. Everything that you describe, even the music notes, even the artistry, even poetry is the thought-induced experiencing. So whatever the thought-induced experiencing, I call it impure, it’s not really real.

Rick: Well, it’s a pointer. Like for instance, music notes, you see all these little squiggles on the paper and a person who’s not trained in music looks at that and it doesn’t mean anything to them. A person who’s like a Neville Mariner or something like that looks at that and sees Beethoven’s Sixth Symphony and understands what those squiggles represent and has an appreciation for it. So you know that old Zen saying, again, “Finger pointing at the moon, don’t mistake the finger for the moon.” So all these words are just pointers, but like the music notes, they provide a means, however inadequate, for communicating that which can only really be experienced and cannot be communicated through words. But they provide a way of talking about it.

Moksha: Yes, words are different in terms of thinking. Even the music, as I say, is thinking. So the music notes is thinking. Everything is thinking. Without thinking we cannot be aware.

Rick: No, Yeah.

Moksha: So it’s all thought. What is thought? It’s the electromagnetic field that is functioning on its own. Even right now, I have no idea what I’m going to say next. Any human being cannot say that I’m going to say something next. Thought is something that is happening spontaneously. It is electromagnetic field that is arising out of the energy that you have within you and it is relating to the energy that is happening dynamically that we don’t see here. It’s the intangible energy that we have. Even the planet is giving us all this energy that is vibration that we don’t see with our eyes. And even distance, a trillion lights away, something that is there is actually affecting us that we don’t see with our eyes, which is intangible. And these things are actually relating to each other. So, in this relation, it’s a dynamic relation that is going on. It’s just the interaction, dance of molecules, the universe is dancing, that is what is happening.

Rick: Did you think about this kind of stuff a lot before this awakening? Or were you not a very philosophical kind of guy?

Moksha: I was philosophical. Like I said, I did go back to, went through a lot of readings and a lot of listening to the so-called gurus and stuff like that. But none of them really helped me in this awakening. This happening is spontaneous and who is speaking here right now? The speaker, I have no idea. Robin Pandey could not say all these things. But this is happening, this is happening dynamically and who is speaking? There is only speaking going on, there is no speaker here.

Rick: Yeah, I suppose that’s true of just about everything you do, speaking, eating.

Moksha: Yes, it’s a machine, it’s a machine that is functioning on its own. Although it appears as it’s not functioning, but it is functioning on its own.

Rick: And that’s corroborated by ancient scriptures too. There are all these verses in the Gita about how one does, they say even on grasping and letting go and walking and speaking and all this different stuff, one realizes I do not act at all, there is no actor doing all these things.

Moksha: Yes, those are all assumptions written in the books. You have no idea what is happening.

Rick: Well, it’s people who wrote books 5000 years ago that tried to describe the kind of experience that you are trying to describe now.

Moksha: Well, they are singing their tune 5000 years ago, whoever wrote that, Bas, whoever wrote that. And I think whoever wrote that, certainly I heard that they were high in acid, sitting somewhere in the jungle and experienced all this extraordinary experience, which you can buy for, I don’t know, I’ve never done acid, but I can give for $10, $50 today and experience the same thing now and be able to write something extraordinary like that.

Rick: Well, I did it a fair amount back in about 1967, 68, and I can assure you that, although it gives you a glimpse of something, it’s not the same as the sort of awakening or awareness that’s cultured naturally over time, at least it wasn’t for me. It was just sort of a glimpse without actually having cleared out all the garbage that was filling my head. So it was a very muddled kind of thing. Whereas, as you say, in the case of your spiritual awakening, there was a dropping of all attachments. Presumably, what did that do to your thought process, for instance? Did you find that prior to that awakening your mind was kind of noisy a lot and full of extraneous thoughts and then afterwards it became more quiet and there wasn’t so much static going on, it wasn’t like ten radio stations playing at the same time?

Moksha: No, it’s nothing like that.

Rick: So what was it like?

Moksha: You see, prior to this I would say the thought is more linear, linear thought. Now the thought is not linear, I don’t know, the thought is dynamic.

Rick: Spontaneous, would that be?

Moksha: Spontaneous, exactly.

Rick: So, would you say you are more living in the moment?

Moksha: Exactly, you see, what is important to me is now, what is happening, the present. The conversations you and I are having, this all exists now, nothing else. Of course, there are many things happening dynamically, so and so is going to grocery store, so and so is working even on Sunday, so and so is enjoying, drinking beer, having fun, watching a ball game, my wife and daughter doing something, this is all happening now, this is all there is. And we have been misleading by this so-called spiritual forerunners, saying that there is something other than this, and that is the problem.

Rick: Who said there was something other than this? You mean, like who? Can you think of a forerunner who said that?

Moksha: Even the discussion we have, there is such thing as enlightened, and if someone is seeking for enlightened, there is something there, other than this. What I say is this is it, this is a great joy for me, to be able to express, there is nothing extraordinary than this.

Rick: Yeah, true, but let’s say you go to a drug rehabilitation clinic, and you speak to a bunch of people who have really gone through a difficult time, or to a prison or something, and you say, there is nothing other than this. Well, their this might be quite different than your this.

Moksha: Yes, materialistic way, yes.

Rick: Different perspective.

Moksha: Yes, materialistic, yes.

Rick: And so this whole thing of there is nothing other than this, sometimes I think sells it short, because it implies that whatever anybody is experiencing is all there is to it, and there is a vast range of possibility in terms of enhancing or unfolding or clarifying your capacity for experience, so that life doesn’t look like a dismal mess, and you feel inclined to throw yourself in front of a train.

Moksha: See, right there is the problem, that when you say capacity, right now, whether you don’t have a capacity, right now what I say, what I point out is right now you have a capacity, but your thought structure is limiting you, saying that there is something different in terms of material, by doing this you can experience something extraordinary. I am having extraordinary experience now.

Rick: You are?

Moksha: Yes, but if you want something other than this, I could be sitting on a beach, what you are implying, I could be sitting on a beach, listening to the beach, that could be more extraordinary than this. No, I said no, this is…

Rick: That would be sitting on a beach.

Moksha: Yes, that is the degree or the materialistic approach to see, by being this, by being drug free, by being alcohol free, by being stress free, you experience this enlightenment, no. I say, even if you are a drunkard, drinking every day, one day you can wake up and be enlightened, or whatever.

Rick: It’s possible, but you are way out on the fringes of the bell curve if that happens. If you are systematically destroying your nervous system, the likelihood of awakening is less than if you are systematically culturing and purifying it.

Moksha: That is the thought structure, that is the way of putting in terms of language, that is the way we are taught, that is the way we are conditioned, that is the way you are speaking.

Rick: It’s also what we actually see in the real world. We see people who have… I’m going to interview a guy next week who was a serious drug addict for many years, and he eventually came out of it. I don’t know what he thinks of himself in terms of awakened or not, but he wouldn’t trade his old condition for his current one, because he was doing so much damage to himself, and it was warping his perspective so severely, that it was making his life and those around him utterly miserable. Where he is today is a far cry from that. They say beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What I’m saying is that the eye of the beholder has a wide range of possibilities, from hellish to heavenly, and that one can actually… even though ultimately there may be no doer and no chooser and no free will, for all appearances one can actually make choices and take actions, which can move you toward the more pleasant phases of that spectrum.

Moksha: Again, actually I wanted to go back and touch up what you said.

Rick: Okay.

Moksha: There is the idea that is out there, and you have that idea in you, that is speaking in terms of, this is the way things should be. So through that idea we are saying, by having X and Y or A, B, C, that this person is going to be less miserable, this person is going to make the society less miserable, because we are putting the idea there, and that is all coming from the idea. So what I’m speaking is, it is coming from the natural expression or the natural thought process, or whatever, it’s not even a thought process, I don’t know even what it’s coming from, it is coming from spontaneously. So even the idea is actually false, because the idea is present there, and I’m not saying, if I go back into the real world, I’m not saying, you live your life miserably, no. But what I’m pointing out is the idea that drives these things, by saying, this is the way the idea is, this is the ideal model is, and everyone should be like that, and that is what I’m saying is false.

Rick: Yeah, everyone shouldn’t be like anything, there is always going to be variety, like your two leaves, no two leaves are the same, no two people are the same, but what I’m suggesting is that actions do have consequences, and the consequences of one’s actions, one’s choices, can make one either more happy, more miserable, and as long as one appears to have volition, it can be exercised, and can steer the course of one’s life in one direction or another. And to take an example of the practical utility of this spiritual stuff, Gangaji, for instance, you probably heard of Gangaji, back in the old days did a lot of prison programs, and she was visiting prisons in Colorado and elsewhere, and a number of people who are now living pretty happy, well-adjusted lives, were in those prisons, and had contact with Gangaji, and it really transformed them, like John Sherman and Kenny Johnson, both of whom I’ve interviewed. So, there is this kind of notion that is popular in some spiritual circles, that there is no causality between anything one does or engages in, and a spiritual transformation, and that can , I think, lead to nihilism, where one feels like, “Well, why do anything then?” But you see time and time again that when people do engage in something, like this interaction these guys had with Gangaji, it can be transformative. So, I’m just kind of saying that to play devil’s advocate, because you kept insisting that nothing you had done prior to this awakening in 2009 could have had anything to do with it, and I’m suggesting that it may very well seem that way, but I’m skeptical.

Moksha: Yeah, you’re right. I want to go back to the comprehensive collective knowledge we have collected millions of years, and actually that is driving you and I, and that model gives us the idea that certain things should be this way, and that is actually driving the human race today, and billions of human beings, I would say about 99% of human beings, follow that structure, and try to fit themselves into that type of model. And what I’m pointing out is that, well, you mentioned Gangaji, she went to the prison, point this to people, and I don’t know what she pointed, but if I were her, I would say there is a reality with ‘r’, and reality with a big capital ‘R’, and this is all illusion, if you don’t attach too much yourself to this reality, that may give you more peace, that’s all I can say, I can certainly point them to have more peaceful within whatever they are, but what I’m pointing out is that is not the real reality, even the peace, is there such thing as peace, even I question peace?

Rick: Well, Gangaji may have said something like that to those people, I don’t know what she did, she also has a certain presence, and presence can be contagious, there can be a transmission kind of value, that even without saying anything, like Ramana Maharshi a lot of times didn’t say very much, he just sat around, but his presence was transformative to those who were in his vicinity. So, I guess maybe I’m saying spirituality is contagious. One question that occurred, my wife actually brought it up to me, she just passed me a note, she said, “Apart from any practices, did you have a spiritual desire or thirst prior to this awakening?” I mean you kind of said you did, you were reading books and listening to satsangs, so, there must have been a thirst, there must have been an intention or some kind of desire.

Moksha: Who doesn’t desire for something great?

Rick: Yeah, some people don’t, at least they don’t set their sights as high as perhaps you did, they think, “Oh, what I really want is a new car.” Not everybody does, most people have material aspirations, like you said, the 99% which in this case has a negative connotation, are primarily concerned with tangible stuff, they are not concerned with what you are alluding to, which is much more kind of abstract.

Moksha: Certainly, Rick, everyone aspires for some desire, without desire I don’t think this dynamic would function.

Rick: I agree.

Moksha: So desire is there, even there is today, but attachment to desire is not here.

Rick: That’s a good point.

Moksha: So desire is always there, desire actually drives the whole humanity, even I think the universe created us through desire, so, desire is there, and you see, the desire for material things like car, being a rock star, superstar, or having a millionaire, becoming a big house, see that desire and becoming an enlightened person, I don’t see the difference there.

Rick: I agree, it’s the same basic fundamental craving for more, for happiness. I think I maybe heard you say that a lot in your talks, that ultimately what one is looking for is happiness, or am I thinking of somebody else, but whether it’s a car or a mansion or fame or enlightenment, I think the fundamental motivation is the same.

Moksha: Yes, because even you do spiritual practice to become a spiritual person, to have the spiritual power.

Rick: Who does?

Moksha: The spiritual community like priests and whoever you go to.

Rick: Some people do, but I don’t think a lot, some people are perhaps more simple and sincere in their motivation, they are not thinking, “I want spiritual power”, it’s more like they just want truth, they want to live a true and meaningful, they want to come out of any sort of delusion or confusion, they just want to know what’s real, that’s their motivation, pure and simple.

Moksha: Well, some people maybe, but a lot of people, if you are seeking, like if you said there is a difference between seeking for the material desire versus spiritual desire, what I say is both are thought-induced desire, so both are thought and material are the same. So, if you are thinking, that thought and the desire, they are the same thing.

Rick: Yeah.

Moksha: Because if you boil down to the thought, the thought is the wave function, electromagnetic field, it’s a wave function, if you narrow down to even this material, the leaf, thought and the leaf, they are the same, because it’s also a wave function, thought is a wave function. You probably heard yogis in India who have produced orange in their hand with their thoughts, so, they can fulfill their hunger.

Rick: Yeah, you read about that, the autobiography of a yogi and so on. But on your point, I think one thing leads to the next. As you say, perhaps the whole creation came about through desire, you said that a minute ago, and each of us being an expression or aspect of creation is motivated by the same fundamental tendency that maybe gave rise to creation itself, which is greater and greater. There’s a saying, “Contact with Brahman is infinite joy,” and it seems that the whole flow of life is in the direction of greater and greater happiness, or at least an attempt at greater and greater happiness. And one thing leads to the next, and you get the new car and you find, “Oh, that didn’t make me happy, I want a bigger car, I want a bigger house.” And eventually you realize, “It seems like none of these material things are going to make me happy, maybe there’s something non-material that could make me happy,” and then maybe you start searching in the spiritual direction.

Moksha: Yes, certainly your linear thought will point like that, linear thought will emphasize that this event will lead to that event, and this event will lead to that event. I said no, because what is happening is happening independently and it is happening dynamically. No two events can relate to one another, it is happening independently. All these molecules are dancing in relationship. So, it’s not like you do something that leads to that, it’s never like that. What I say is you are already awakened, so the only thing that is blocking you now is your thought, even a tiny thought that is moving a finger, is blocking you to recognize that. You are already enlightened, already awakened, whatever is that term, if that exists.

Rick: So would you say that is equally true of all 7 billion people in the world, that they are already awakened, they are already enlightened?

Moksha: Yes, there is no difference. The living organism, how this is functioning here and there, essentially and fundamentally is functioning exactly the same way, there is no difference.

Rick: Yes, but you know there is something that blocks… So ok, by this logic Adolf Hitler was already enlightened, and the guy who shot up the movie theater in Colorado a year ago…

Moksha: Essentially and fundamentally.

Rick: Essentially, that’s the key word.

Moksha: What Hitler thought is totally different, but the living organism, how it is functioning, I am saying, the breathing mechanism, the heart is beating, see right now, I can feel my heart, it’s beating. And all here, in this here, is a hollow, wherever this person is sitting, is a hollow thing, all I can do is feel my heartbeat. So, all here is a heartbeat that is functioning, you see. And all this activity, that’s what I am talking about, not the thought structure, which is mechanical, that is placed in us.

Rick: But what does all this heart beating and everything have to do with enlightenment or awakening?

Moksha: I am not talking about that, I am talking about how we are functioning, how we are functioning exactly the same way, see the heart is beating here…

Rick: Yeah, yeah, and the same is true of a chipmunk, I mean his heart is beating. But when you say that everyone is already enlightened, then my question is, all right, fine, essentially they are, but the name of the game is realizing it, not just saying…

Moksha: Attachment to your thoughts, even moving this finger is a thought, that is blocking you to recognize that.

Rick: And so when you had your awakening, you kind of in a moment, in an instant, got unattached to everything, but you don’t know how it happened to you.

Moksha: There is no way out, there is no way out, you may say pure luck, or by the grace of God, if he exists.

Rick: I interviewed a guy a couple of years ago that was crossing a parking lot and a car almost hit him, and tires screeched and he was shocked and he awoke, and that was it, he didn’t change back after that, he was awakened.

Moksha: Yes, let me actually point you, I had earlier thought to what you just wanted to say, I don’t want to miss that, even a tiny insect that is crawling on the ground, even this leaf falling from the tree, even this conversation, even the word I say, “hello” or something, or something that you read in the book, these are all coincidences. What is happening in the awakening, I point out, is that it is happening spontaneously, through without you having no control, that is happening, and it is just a coincidence that you happen to be sitting in the temple, or you happen to sit in with the Guru, or you happen to listen to me, or you happen to listen to someone else, or you happen to listen to some great person, great personality, whoever that is, so those things are just coincidences, and certainly if the person has been through this spiritual training and learning, experienced this and they recognize this right away, and they say, “now I know I am awakened”. But there are millions of people who are already awakened, they do not recognize that, well they recognize that peculiarly, but they don’t know how to speak the words like you and I are speaking, so we don’t know who they are, but these people exist.

Rick: Well I think there is truth to that, especially these days it seems more and more people are awakening, and in many cases they don’t have any kind of spiritual background, and they don’t know what it is at first, and maybe after they have the awakening then they start searching, and Eckhart Tolle was an example, after the awakening then he started putting the pieces together. But I still think that, to use your temple example, but to make it more metaphorical, if you hang out in a temple you are going to come out smelling like incense, if you hang out in a bar you are going to come out smelling like alcohol and tobacco. So, what you, which is the way my father smelled when he came home every night, according to what you do and the company you keep, and this is actually a point that is emphasized a great deal in the Vedic tradition, is that the company of the enlightened is a very powerful technique in and of itself for getting enlightened.

Moksha: Yes, yes, what I am saying is that even putting into that situation, you have no way of, you also say, well I made a choice to be there, but see what I am pointing out is, you don’t have a choice, the choice is happening spontaneously, and it appears that many events that led it to that point, this is linear thinking, and you are there, happen to be in this community, great community, and you stay there many years and you happen to be enlightened. What I am pointing out is that that is happening dynamically and you are enlightened, if such a thing exists. And you say, well, because I am in this present group of people, then I am enlightened. That is just the way of…

Rick: Not because you are in the group, I am just saying that certain associations can be more conducive to it than others, certain activities more conducive than others. If you say that there is actually nothing you can do whatsoever, it doesn’t matter what you do, it is either going to happen or it is not, and you are already there even if you don’t know it, it doesn’t give people much to go on. The 7 billion people in the world, fine, they are all enlightened on some level, but most of them don’t have any inkling that such a thing even exists. It is not really a practical instruction, it is not going to be able to…

Moksha: If there is such a practical instruction, there is no instruction for this.

Rick: I think there is. I think that one can give practical advice, one can give talks that can be conducive to enlivening this. There can be a value, I mean, you go to a lot of people who, for instance, I am using him as a case in point because I like him a lot, Adyashanti, a lot of people who go to his satsangs end up having these awakenings. Even some people who have been seeking for decades and then they go and they hear him say a few things and something clicks. They probably wouldn’t have gotten that that day if they just stayed home and watched the football game.

Moksha: Again, I think you are missing a point. What I am pointing is that even going to that event is totally unrelated and totally independent because what is meant to happen, it happens. You are sitting down, even in the bar, you are drunk, you are enlightened, that is totally unrelated.

Rick: Very unlikely. I don’t know how many bars you have hung out, maybe you have, but I haven’t found too many enlightened people in them.

Moksha: I mean, again, the enlightened, whatever this is, what we are talking about, is totally unrelated to anything that we do. The gurus and these people who sell you in the market place, they will sell you in the market place, all these ideas and beliefs. I heard that they are doing this tantric sex to enlightened people, which is totally rubbish because you cannot enlighten people by doing a tantric sex or doing this, doing yoga, Samadhi, all that thing. Because these gurus are actually selling this in the market place, so it’s a big business.

Rick: Oh, I agree. I mean, there is a lot of nonsense out there, there is a lot of crazy stuff that people do. I mean, it’s a whole huge potpourri of different things. I am not suggesting that everything is of equal value, that all teachers are of equal usefulness. I mean, it’s a real hodgepodge. You kind of gravitate toward what attracts you, I suppose. But the only point I am making is that it’s not all just sort of haphazard and that there are causal relationships. You just have to choose your teacher wisely, choose your practice wisely, if you are going to do one, to the best of your knowledge and keep your eyes open. There is a lot of spiritual casualties, a lot of people who get really traumatized or disillusioned by association with teachers and so on. But there are some good ones and you can’t just throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Moksha: See, I don’t even consider myself teachers and I know in this community, a lot of people don’t even consider themselves as a teacher. What we are doing is we are pointing out and the real guru, what I say, is already within you. It’s here. The source is here. That knows. That guru is here. In the Sanskrit word, I call it maha-guru, which is the guru of the guru is already here. So those guys are just pointing out, looking to that, looking to that, looking to that.

Rick: And most of them say that. Guys like Ramana Maharshi, they probably said those very words to people, that the real guru is within. But it doesn’t mean that there is no value whatsoever in having an external guru, if that’s your inclination. It’s not that it has no significance whatsoever for a person. A lot of people who listen to this show, I’ve gotten some great reports, have gotten into some kind of association with someone I’ve interviewed, after having seen them on the show, and have undergone a dramatic shift as a result of that association. So, if that happens, great. Who am I or you to say that it couldn’t happen or shouldn’t happen or anything?

Moksha: I’m not saying that you shouldn’t do anything. You shouldn’t go to this guru or that guru, you should practice this. I’m not saying anything like that. What I’m saying is that what I experience here is totally unrelated to anything, any event in life.

Rick: No, I understand that. You’re speaking from your experience and I respect that. But let’s not take our own experience as the universal truth that it’s going to apply that way for everybody. It was that way for you.

Moksha: Okay, okay. I don’t want to sound like that. Like I said, I go back, this being right here is speaking, is singing my tune. Other people sing their own tunes. Everyone is singing different tunes to get the piece of the resources that is available to us. So everyone wants to get the piece of resources that is available to them. So that’s what everyone is doing. We are singing our tune, you see. But the commitment here, as I said, I had an appointment to go to St. Louis, which I cancelled to be here because this was the commitment. The commitment here is with the truth. And the truth that you see is actually nothing that you imagine to be. Again, I’m speaking from my experience. The truth I see is totally nothing that I thought before or felt before. It’s totally different. The truth that we speak today is trivial truth, like my name, address, telephone number, what I do, this is my family, this is my house, this is my car. So those are only trivial truth. But the truth I’m speaking about, the real truth is totally nothing like what I imagined.

Rick: That’s great. I appreciate that. A lot of people said that too. Even people who read a lot of books and studied a lot of stuff, when it actually dawns on them, sometimes they don’t even know what the heck it is because it’s so different than what they conceived of beforehand. So that’s great. Well, that’s a good note to perhaps start to wrap it up on. You look at a beautiful garden this time of year and there’s all these different flowers and plants and diversity and all that. That’s kind of what the garden of God is like. There’s you, there’s all 183 other people I’ve interviewed and a thousand people on my waiting list and a million people who aren’t even on the waiting list who would be equally interesting to talk to. And each one is a different expression, like your two leaves. And even in the spiritual camp, they’re all saying something that’s fundamentally the same but each unique in its own way. And I think each one has its contribution to make. I mean, if Robin Pandy was the only guy in the whole world talking about this stuff, then there would be…

Moksha: It would be boring.

Rick: It’s not the way God operates. God seems to operate in terms of just sort of abundant diversity and multitudes of variety and so on. Good, well I hope you feel like this was worth your while. I was a little bit argumentative but I felt like I just wanted to make it a lively discussion. Sorry you had to miss your thing in St. Louis. I hope you have another opportunity to do that.

Moksha: Don’t worry about that. I do enjoy talking with you and this is all, like you said, a dynamic experience. I enjoy being here today. And I don’t see it as an argument, Rick. I see this as all part of this flowing…

Rick: Yeah, a lively discussion.

Moksha: This is all part of the truth. And the more argument I have, I feel good because that leads… Again, I don’t want to say leads, but that points you to the truth.

Rick: I know what you mean. I used to give lectures myself on meditation and I really appreciated it when there was somebody in the audience who really kind of gave me a hard time because it would really bring out a lot more than if they all just sat there.

Moksha: Exactly.

Rick: Good, so let me make a couple of wrap-up points. I’ve been speaking with Robin Pandey or Moksha Mukti. Many people adopt a spiritual name these days and he’s known as Moksha Mukti. I’ll be linking to his website. I guess you have a Google+ page and a YouTube channel. Do you have an actual website or no?

Moksha: I have a WordPress, Robin Pandey, wordpress.com.

Rick: Yes, send me the link to that and I’ll link to that, YouTube, all these things.

Moksha: I have a couple of books, amazon.com.

Rick: Okay, I’ll link to those as well. “Waves Metamorphosizing into Revelation” is one, I believe.

Moksha: Yes.

Rick: Is that right?

Moksha: Yes.

Rick: Did I get that right?

Moksha: Metamorphosing, I think, not morphosizing, morphosing.

Rick: Okay, good.

Moksha: And the other one is “Ever-Perpetuating Present Moment”.

Rick: Right, right. And people can get in touch with you through your WordPress blog.

Moksha: If they’re interested.

Rick: If they wish, yep, or watch your YouTube videos. A few wrap-up points, which I always like to make about batgap.com. It’s an acronym for Buddha at the Gas Pump. If you happen to be watching this on YouTube, for instance, you could go to batgap.com and there you’ll see the whole thing, all the interviews that have been done so far with both an alphabetical and a chronological index. There’s a discussion group that pops up around each interview in case you want to get chatting about the things that have been discussed in the interview. There’s a “Donate” button, which I rely upon people clicking occasionally in order to keep the whole thing rolling. There is a link to an audio podcast, so you can get this on iTunes and just listen to the audio. And there is a tab that you can click to sign up to be notified by email each time a new interview is posted. So that’s it. Thanks for listening or watching. Thank you very much, Mokcha.

Moksha: Thank you so much.

Rick: To those who have been listening or watching, we’ll see you next week. Next week is going to be this fellow I referred to named Tom Catton, who really had a hell of an experience in his drug days and through spirituality came out of it. I found his story quite heroic and I felt like he deserved an interview and that it might help people who are going through similar things to him. So thanks again. I’ll talk to you later. Bye. Thank you. [Music]