Miles Neale Transcript

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Miles Neale Interview

Rick Archer: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of interviews with spiritually Awakening people. I have done well over 500 of them now. And if this is new to you and you’d like to check out previous ones, please go to batgap.com Bat gap and look under the past interviews menu. This program is made possible by the support of appreciative listeners and viewers. So if you appreciate it and would like to support it, there’s a PayPal button on every page of the site. My guest today is Dr. Myles Neil. Welcome, miles.

Miles Neale: Thanks so much, Rick. Yeah,

Rick Archer: good to see you. Miles is a Buddhist psychotherapist in private practice and founder of the two year online contemplative studies program. He’s the author of gradual awakening and hold it up. There we go. gradual awakening, the Tibetan Buddhist path of becoming fully human. And he is the CO editor of advances in contemplative psychotherapy. Miles as a faculty member of Tibet House us and we’ll Cornell Medical College, with more than 20 years integrating the mind science and meditative practices of Tibetan Buddhism with psychotherapy, trauma research and neuroscience. Miles is a forerunner in the emerging field of contemplative psychotherapy, and leads pilgrimages around the Buddhist world. One of Miles’s mentors was Robert Thurman, who has been on BatGap twice. So he might refer to Robert during this interview, and you might want to check out those interviews if you feel like it. So miles, I was thinking maybe we would start just to kind of as a springboard, by picking apart the title of your book, and defining a few terms here. Like we could pick apart almost every word in it, what do you mean by gradual? What do you mean by awakening? And what is it? What does it mean to become fully human? So let’s do those three. For starters. Maybe

Miles Neale: we start with awakening, because I noticed I noticed very cleverly, maybe subtly. In your own presentation of your own show, you say, with spiritually awakening leaders or speakers,

Rick Archer: people Yeah, we actually the phrase is ordinary spiritually Awakening people. That’s the way we phrased it. Go ahead.

Miles Neale: But that’s significant that caught my attention. And I actually very much appreciate it. And I’m not sure how many people have noticed that or, or, you know, brought that to your attention. But I think that’s a very significant difference from awakened, which is the the typical, the typical usage.

Rick Archer: Well, it’s very intentional, and it used to say awakened, and I just got too uncomfortable with that and change it to awakening. Because awakened or enlightened terms like that, to me just have much to superlative and static a connotation, you know, and I haven’t seen any examples that would fit that those.

Miles Neale: Well, then right out of the gate, we have some synchronicity. Because that’s, I mean, I really appreciate that, because I would totally agree with you. And I think that that’s a very clever and it all, it almost builds trust between us right away, because

Rick Archer: I trusted you already.

Miles Neale: Otherwise, I wouldn’t be here, I guess. But I think that’s it. I think that’s a very, you know, I think it opens it opens up the field to include many unknown people such as myself, who don’t claim any profound awakening experience awakened experience, but still might have something to converse about and something to share. So I think that that thank you so much for that.

Rick Archer: Yeah. And I would say that many of the people I’ve interviewed are experiencing something very profound and maybe have been for years. But they’ll be the first to tell you that it still unfolds, you know, they’re still a work in progress.

Miles Neale: Yeah, which I totally I guess, so. That that that concept of what is awakening, what what are we awakening to who is awakening? That would be maybe one direction and then the other one is the gradual part of it, which in stark contrast to the few people that are have claimed to have already arrived and you and I both know, there are some of them out there whom whom I find quite dangerous, actually. I find those kinds of statements assertions very dangerous and I but I also think that there are a sizable part of the population that eat that kind of stuff up We could talk about the psychoanalytic understanding of what that might what might be a play with, with people who are gobbling that up at in a furious pace right now in our culture. On the other hand, I think I’m very much I’m sure we both agree that there is some tension or interplay between awakening to something and then AI, recognizing that it’s a gradual period of metabolizing, or integration. And I think this is very common, especially as the rise of plant medicine comes into play people can have through various means including plant medicine, yogic experiences, and and etc, you can have a kind of breakthrough moment, which can happen seemingly out of nowhere could be a glimpse, let’s say some people call it Satori. Some people call it by other by other I’m not sure what it is in the yoga tradition that you’re really familiar with Samadhi, maybe, okay, the Samadhi experience, but then there is also the the period after the Samadhi experience in which you have to really undergo a period, which may be quite prolonged of integral, integrating that that glimpse, and so on. So that’s really, that is really the hallmark of the gradual approach is the recognition that there is no single complete and utter transformative experience. This is this is a matter of incremental and gradual progression. And within that, there may be glimpses, but then there are periods of metabolization, and then sort of a staged progression, which is really the hallmark of the book, it is really looking at that stage progression of consciousness and the development of maturity from the Tibetan point of view.

Rick Archer: Yeah. And there are a number of angles from which we can elucidate that, for instance, I mean, one is that any experience we’re having, we’re having by virtue of some activity in the brain, and, and the nervous system in general. And, you know, they they found, for instance, that waking, dreaming and sleeping are each quite distinct from one another neurophysiological II just as they are subjectively. Now, if enlightenment or awakening or whatever is as profound as it’s cracked up to be, then there should be quite a different style of brain functioning evidence are correlated with with that experience. And, you know, we’ve all heard about neuroplasticity. But neuroplasticity doesn’t happen in an instant. It the studies have shown that long term meditators of various in various disciplines do undergo quite a profound transformation in the structure and functioning of the brain. But never on day one it takes it takes years for the brain to transform itself into a different style of functioning. Hmm, yeah. Yeah. Okay, so. So let’s keep dwelling on this a bit. So what do we mean by awakening? People throw the term around, and, you know, you think that I would have a clearer understanding of what it means but I, whenever anybody uses the term, I mean, they have to ask what they’re how they’re using it, you know, what they mean by it, because there’s just no universal consensus in our contemporary spiritual culture. There’s a lot of overlap, I think, and a lot of some consensus, but a lot of variety and differences among in terms of how people understand that word.

Miles Neale: Yeah, I mean, I mean, I like the I like the metaphor of the photo telephoto lens, I mean, I think the, to me, it is about opening or expanding the boundaries or parameters of identification, with which, you know, we see ourselves in the world how that boundary or limitation becomes much more permeable and fluid and increasingly inclusive. And, and so it can start very, very, very narrow. I don’t like the word ego bound, but I think probably many, most people in popular culture are very, you know, sort of familiar with that term. But like, if you just imagine that the the telephoto lenses increases to include more of what it identifies with as the self and if and if it and if it values itself, then it starts to value the other that’s included in the parameters of that. So I think this naturally happens when perhaps people become parents, then they start to identify their kids as part of them. So there’s like a natural movement from self identification and one’s fantasies and wishes and hopes and dreams and protecting one from injury but then also very much appreciating the the sort of feeling feeling that you’re connected with something and that you’re you’re you’re gratified and content with something so so taking care of oneself Then imagining, like I have two kids 115 And one, two, their hopes and dreams and protecting them becomes a central part of my preoccupation. So I almost have to, I don’t mind the parameters by which I identify naturally expand to include them. And then if I have students or patients after some time, they become like family. And so and then if you if you start to expand those parameters, then maybe maybe your your culture and that your identity identification with a particular culture, and that parameter keeps opening and expanding until there’s a sense that there is no boundary to that and that you know, you are one with the sky, you’re one with the estuaries, I mean, very much today with as with ecological devastation, can you imagine if people were able to open their consciousness to start to feel that the the suffering of the of the of the Amazon or the, the pollution in the oceans was was almost they would, would, would would sense or feel like, if you were alerted by your doctor that you had a clogged artery and immediately you wanted to attend to it, that level of identification as a kind of awakening. In other words, the sense of solidity by which we normally operate in our routine eyes, habitual manner is sort of narrow land, narrow, narrow telephoto lens, but we have a natural ability to expand that, and that’s what we’re awakening to. So that’s, that’s one way of understanding it metaphorically.

Rick Archer: Alright, so So in your defining awakening, in one sense, as the sort of expansion of the circumference of one’s concern, or one’s sphere of concern, you know, from children, to community, to nation, to world, to environment, and so on, and so forth. So, sort of a broadening of awareness to incorporate the bigger picture. And keeping in mind that most times people are myopically focused on I, me and mine, you know, just the immediate concerns of life. But there is definitely something I think, in those who see the bigger picture that might actually correlate with awakening as, as it’s usually defined in, in a spiritual context, would you agree?

Miles Neale: Yeah. And I also want to just add, so that that would be one movement in a kind of horizontal way, but there would be also like a vertical way too. So you know, it may it may be the case that people start out a very limited level of consciousness about themselves. But then if they do some deep meditative work, or some therapeutic work, or some shamanic work, then they could also really go into the personal unconscious, where we have a lot of traumatic traumatic imprints from possibly childhood, but then even as young, you know, really well created a tight typography for the the collective unconscious in which there’s ancestral imprints and metaphoric, metaphoric suggestions and archetypes. And so, you have that to were almost at the top, you know, if you if the top is more the personal then then the, then then the familial, and let’s say, the cultural and then the universal, we could say. So that’s another way of understanding the expansion of consciousness. But I guess what would tie them both whether you’re going vertical or horizontal is that the sense of identification is loosening. So that that would be the sort of strong foothold in one’s rigid sense of self is, is becoming more versatile and flexible, and less and less bound? Rigid?

Rick Archer: Yeah, I was thinking about this, over the last few days. As I was listening to some of your recordings and reading your book, I thought this topic might come up. But it’s like, you know, at the most superficial level, I guess we could say we are very bound and individuated and localized. But as you just as you’ve just said, in a vertical direction, there is more universality. So you can take an analogy of an ocean, for instance, the waves are very individuated. But deeper down, you know, it’s just sort of more or less individually, it’s just ocean. And the ocean wouldn’t say, Oh, I just thought I was waves. Now I realized the ocean so I’m no longer waves, the ocean would say, okay, and I realized my full the full range of my ocean hood, and I’m still waves, but I’m also so much more. So it’s to my understanding, it’s not like we lose our individual concerns or his sense of personhood or anything like that. It’s just that that local stuff is placed into a much bigger context. Which there’s a sort of an impersonal dimension or a universal dimension to our experience as well as the person No does that work for you?

Miles Neale: It does. But I would say that I mean, if you have new listeners that may be, I mean, I would say that’s the the culmination of a long the realization that you’re describing there, to me feels like the closer to the end of the journey. One in which the the dualities of the ocean and the wave for form and emptiness have been reconciled. But I think, for some people, they may have the experience, first have a very firm identification. And you’ve heard of this, obviously, more of your generation, that’s the song by Donovan with first there’s a mountain then there is no mountain, then there’s a mountain again, which I think I think that’s what you’re describing, you’re describing the third leg of that journey, so maybe we could unpack them. But the first one is a very strong identification with your urges, wishes, I, you know, you’re consumed or preoccupied with your career or your personality, you’re getting your validation, warning off, you know, blame and shame, etc, it’s very ego bound, you know, so that is the mountain, the mountain is the mountain appears, is real yourself is real. And you’re negotiating the world based on that rigid sense of preoccupation based on an assumption that it’s absolutely inherently real. And then you find your way into the spiritual communities, or maybe you have a spontaneous kind of awakening moment, if I, you’re messing around with meditation, or some plant medicine, or psychedelics, or what have what have you. And some people have reported and experienced a sense that there is no amount and actually there, they lose the entire their, their sense of being touched with the wave, and they have that unitary consciousness or the recognition that they’re the, the totality. And I actually, I actually think that most people stop there, actually, and, and they, they they be they think that the the, the goal of the spiritual path is to unite with the totality consciousness, which I find dangerous, I think wonderful and blissful as it may be, also can be very dangerous, because then you’ll have people who claim that the way that I detect it as if they have a sense of detachment from the world, ordinary world of concerns, which I’m sure you’ve been around the block, and you see this and people were, they’ll say something like, don’t worry about that. It’s all an illusion. Oh, yeah. And that’s very dangerous thinking. But but it is, in a way, so in so many ways, justified from with even within multiple traditions, because they’re all seemingly pointing to this universal mode of consciousness where the sense of self disappears. And on then the world of appear, the world that has been considered ordinary, ie the mountain, has been seen through and seen as a mere appearance, and thus you land in the universe, you know, in the universal consciousness. And so in a way, it feels like you’ve arrived. And so we’re already jumping to the last chapter in my book. But in a way, we’re also setting up the importance of the lamrim, or the gradual stages of the path, because that provides a roadmap to alert people of the stage progression by which is exactly what we’re talking about. So then there is the final necessity, there’s a necessary final push there from the totality back to the wave, so that you can function and so that you can take ordinary wounds of yourself and others seriously. But now seeing them more from this more fluid like place of a place of optimism or a place of love or a place of possibility. Rather than deny their existence, what you’re saying is they’re there. They’re real enough for for me to be concerned about, but they’re flexible or playful enough for there to be an intervention.

Rick Archer: Yeah, there’s a term in Vedanta called mithya. Maybe there’s probably an equivalent thing in Buddhism, but it I think the best translation is dependent reality. And often they use the example of clay pots. So you have all these different clay pots, different shapes, and colors and so on. And you can use them for different things. You can put beans in them or water, use them as drums or whatever. Now someone might come along and say, well, there’s no pots here. It’s all just clay. There’s only clay. And they’re right, you know, but they’re not only all half, right, because there’s lots of pots. And, and, you know, so both but you’re you’re talking about my generation, your generation probably isn’t old enough to remember the certs, commercials there were kind of there were these twins arguing over whether certs was a candy mint or a breath mint. And they go back and forth and then the voice would come and say stop. You’re both writes certs is two minutes and one.

Miles Neale: Yes, yes, that’s exactly right. Isn’t that I think that’s really important. Why? Because in your analogy of the pots, maybe one pot holes oil and the other vinegar and Both are necessary. See like that that’s the skillfulness of being able to have also pots,

Rick Archer: right? Yeah. Okay, so we’re concluding here is that reality is multi dimensional, and that you can’t sort of glom on to one dimension to the exclusion of the others and expect to live a balanced life. And, you know, if people try to do that, they can generally get smacked around a bit until they are more or less forced to have a more comprehensive view. I think

Miles Neale: it might do that, too. Although I also think that we have to, I mean, maybe because your podcast community is so already has a refined awareness, we sometimes lose touch with the preponderance of people don’t even know about spiritual path or spiritual awakening at all. And so I think we take that oftentimes for granted that many, many more people don’t know about their spiritual potentialities, or the methodologies about which I mean, we take it for granted, because we’ve been around in your case, what is it 30 or 40 years, you’ve been doing this?

Rick Archer: 51?

Miles Neale: Is it 51? I mean, that’s amazing.

Rick Archer: 52 If you count drugs.

Miles Neale: Well, that is part of the exploration. Yeah, there was a significant part for you. So yes, I mean, I think we take for granted that, in our circles, people are on their way, and to some degree, but there are so many people who have not even embarked.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I mean, look at what we see on the news. Every night people are vaping. And they’re using opioids, and, you know, they’re just all this crazy stuff is going on. People, if people had, if people realized what it was possible to experience and live in as in one’s life, they wouldn’t be interested in that stuff. It wouldn’t be wouldn’t be trying to use those things to blot out the the pain they’re feeling.

Miles Neale: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I think I think it is important to recognize that the world that we’re we’re talking about and discussing we’ve had a lot of experience with, but there’s so many people that that really are in a way you have are still asleep, so much asleep, that it hasn’t occurred to them that there’s actually a poignant journey to embark on. So, yeah,

Rick Archer: I think that’s changing. I mean, it there does seem to be some kind of epidemic going on, from my perspective. Anyway. We’ll see how, how rapidly it proceeds. But there’s just more and more appreciation of the kind of thing we’re talking about here. And this might lead us into your home mix mindfulness theme. I know when I used to teach TM, you know, we would give a very practical introductory lecture, basically, we would say, Okay, this will, you know, unfold your more of your mental potential, improve your health, it’ll improve your social behavior, you’ll get along better with people. And you know, if enough people did it, it would contribute to world peace. And people thought, well, that sounds good. And then they would learn it. And after about three, four days of experience, we would say, okay, and there’s also this thing called cosmic consciousness. And they could get that after four days of experience, which they couldn’t get in the intro lecture. They’re very skillful, there’s so much mindfulness. So you, you wrote a whole article about that. And, you know, the basic point was that there seems to be a tendency for ancient teachings to be diluted by our sort of got to have it now culture. And go ahead and say a bit about that. We’ll go back and forth on it for a minute.

Miles Neale: I mean, it’s very, it was very important for me to articulate that sentiment because it was one that I carried. I mean, it’s part of my biography, really, like mindfulness is really something that emerged out of my own personal sort of, what would you call the hero’s journey, if you will, like part of the part of the ordeal of my life because I, you know, in a way, my journey, you know, if we just enter into some of my biography, I, at 20 years old, I was already in India, having signed up for a Buddhist studies course, in college, because I had already experienced for many years, a pervasive dissatisfaction, a with the affluence of my childhood, which in a way, there was affluence, but there was something very, very necessary that was missing, which was a kind of attunement, unconditional love and, and meaning or purpose or spiritual inclination that was all missing. There’s a lot of alcohol also in my childhood, and I was very much looking for something and I and, you know, by sheer miracle, I found my way to India to this potent Buddhist studies program in Bodhgaya, where the Buddha gained enlightenment and studied there for five months, but the monks in a very traditional monastic format, in that has, in a way is the way that they have done for centuries. So it was really a drop into a very deep immersion and it had a tremendous impact on me. Because I met a spiritual mentor I discovered I told refuge under the Bodhi tree, I, in a way, I reoriented my life at 20 years old having and I’m sure you’ve had many guests who talk about this kind of thing early on that sets the stage for the trajectory of their development of their career and their personality and the unfoldment of their life. And so I that that really is that it really is mine. But when it comes to mindfulness is the very the very following summer after returning. I had, you know, because I it was within the context of a dissertation for my undergraduate school that I took this sabbatical to, to study in India. And in and part of the return home was to do a summer internship at the Mind Body Medical Institute of Harvard Medical School, where Dr. Herbert Benson, whom you I’m sure, I’m sure, you know, and, you know,

Rick Archer: I drove him from Yale to Harvard one time, in my little, little, little Wreckit, rickety car.

Miles Neale: So we have, you know, we had we were in Benson’s lab, and I had just been, I just got off the boat, basically, metaphorically from India, you know, so I went from the route to the tail. And, and to be perfectly honest, I was thoroughly disillusioned because the way that meditation was being taught, what it meant, how it was being studied, in one way was, you know, fascinating, in another way, felt very hollow. And so in my own soul, I was having a very difficult time, reconciling how our how meditation had made its way into our culture, because Benson was a rock star. I mean, he was in his lab, he was getting interviews, and his name was he had a lot of cachet. And he drove a nice BMW and I was 20 years old. And so you know, like, in a way, it sort of made me feel like what’s going on here? Yeah. And as a young person, that was hard to reconcile, because, again, part of what drove me to India was the dissatisfaction I had with my own culture. And so here I was back in my culture, and there were the, the, the, the, the, the residue, or the the imprint of meditation had reached our shores. And yet, what we were interested in was like, how to stop smoking, or how to how to prevent having a cardiac arrest, which, in my much later, I appreciate how significant that is, because because it could save a life. On the other hand, after such a deep immersion, into really the the stream of enlightenment, I was having a lot of difficulty with that. So

Rick Archer: yeah, I started Benson go through his little metamorphosis. He he got he was doing work with Dr. Robert Keith Wallace, and did some of the initial research, they got published on meditation. And, and then he and they were studying TM, but then then he thought, Well, what we can divest this of all of its cultural trappings, and there doesn’t need to be any ritual or, you know, initiation procedure and all that stuff. And let’s just call it what did he call it? The relaxation, relaxation response? Right? And, and, you know, those of us who were looking at it from a spiritual perspective, thought, oh, man, he’s just watering it down so much, it’s so much more than just some relaxation. And you know, he’s just kind of selling out cheapening it. But anyway,

Miles Neale: yeah. So that I’m 21 years old, and having that very experience that you articulated, I’m studying under this person and going, what the heck is going on? Whereas everybody’s got googoo, Gaga eyes for this guy and what he’s doing. And so yes, like I said, I’ve had my own progress and much maturity around this, where I really appreciate and understand just how much Benson contributed to the movement of the scientific literature, which we needed in some way to get to where we are right now. On the other hand, as a person trying to navigate the world, it did feel like a sellout to me. And it may it really, it made me very specific about what was being removed. Yeah. And so my article on mindfulness, the original one, which were in which I coined the term like mindfulness, although it has been sort of, in a way taken by Purser recently, because he wrote a book titled mindfulness was that I really wanted to understand what was being removed. And so because in my, in my estimation, the inactive ingredients that were being removed, in order to make meditation more accessible and secularize are precisely the kind of ingredients that are absolutely an indispensable and necessary for a spiritual awakening movement.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I mean, in my opinion, you’d probably agree there’s absolutely nothing wrong with learning to meditate if you have high blood pressure and you want to lower it or, you know, becoming less stressed or, you know, various other practical things like that. But it’s a sellout if you if you present it to people as being only that and fail to you know, explain how there’s so much more And maybe they won’t even begin to get interested in the so much more part until they’ve gotten some of this basic stuff taken care of a little bit, but it should be offered, you know, if not in the beginning, then a little bit later. And I don’t know if people get that when they’re just taking classes at the wire, or something, maybe I’m not too much in that world, but I have a feeling that it never gets as deep or seldom gets as deep as it could. And should.

Miles Neale: I think there are, from what I can tell, there are two main arguments around this. The one is well just give, give people something that they can chew on, and eventually, something natural, some natural curiosity will unfold, and it will lead them into the deeper teachings, let’s say, and then there are the other people that say, Well, you know, do we really have time for that? And, and also, there’s a kind of CO opting, there’s a kind of imperialism, an extrication of taking something fanciful from one culture and saying we don’t need the rest is kind of there’s a kind of European or Eurocentric hubris about it, which I think is also will lead us into the discussion of materialism, which I think is really prominent in my book, because you know, the way that we’re approaching mindfulness in this country, it has a enormous impact the health sciences there, many, many more people are doing it, many, many more people are benefiting. But what we’re not talking about is, as we extract what is valuable, ie a technology and dismiss the ritual cosmology, worldview, ethics, as we as we leave those behind, what we’re doing is we’re taking the technology, but we’re situating it within the context of a paradigm, a particular kind of paradigm. In other words, the technology makes sense, within our paradigm, which is the scientific paradigm. But my main thrust of my main argument in the book, gradual awakening, is that it is the very paradigm itself, that is destructive. That’s what’s really causing our sickness.

Rick Archer: There’s a great quote in your book, which you italicize, and I copied it because I wanted to read it out here that summarizes what you’re saying. You say I’ll put my position as bluntly as I can hear any meditation practice that fails to address our culture’s distorted worldview of scientific reductionism grounded in nihilism, and it’s equally misguided offshoots. Materialism, hedonism, imperialism, neoliberal capitalism and consumerism that constitute the current Zeitgeist and fails to connect them directly to our society’s mental health pandemic, general apathy. And the broader plight of our planet in peril is dangerous. Any such approach is the equivalent of encouraging people to rearrange the furniture when their house is on fire. Well, what do you think, I think is a great little synopsis. You know, I think that all the problems you itemize there are, obviously most people are aware of those. And the climate crisis in particular concerns me, but I think they’re all symptomatic of something deeper, as problems tend to be. They’re symptomatic of basically the condition or quality of the collective consciousness in society, which is comprised of the individual consciousness of 8 billion people. And I don’t think we can fix these problems unless we transcend and I say we, but less the collective consciousness is transformed, which will probably have to happen through the transformation of individual consciousness on more of a mass scale. Because, you know, anything we see as our world is a product of human endeavor, pretty much I mean, all the the oil refineries and everything else we have. So if we expect to see a brighter world, a better world that two will have to will be a product of human minds, and those minds are actually going to have to function quite differently than minds generally tend to do these days because we see what what the current mental condition of humanity has produced for us.

Miles Neale: Great. Yeah. So I mean, I think what I’m trying to do is point to the fact that most people right now are going to the why and focusing on their breath and and and at least slowing down enough so that they don’t make them rag themselves ragged. Yeah, so they’ll experience some relaxation and some sense of peace which I don’t I don’t want to be misquoted because I have been in the past as being someone who doesn’t appreciate that fact. I do their that

Rick Archer: and just taking some Ambien or whatever they people take for this stuff and do it naturally if you can,

Miles Neale: and definitely more of us need to to calm down. But what it fails to ask is, is the critical question is why are we so stressed to begin with? What kind of you know what’s motivating us and what’s driving us to this endless chase on a treadmill where we’re absolutely haggard and exhausted. And as a therapist, that’s what I normally see is people at the tail end of their, you know, the tail end of their capacity to endure the stresses of life come to see a therapist in a total crisis or meltdown. Okay, and what I have been trained by my conventional therapeutic intervention is to, you know, first line medicate them, you know, and so, contemplative psychotherapy is really about asking them to look deep within themselves, not just to relax and find a technique to relax, but to ask the deeper questions, and to challenge the pervasive presuppositions and worldview and cultural assumptions that we have, that are at the basement level contributing to the under a nice, I like what you’re saying that what is what is causing the symptom, to become an empowered agent of your own psyche, to become your own therapist, to start to see that the symptom has an origin. And the origin is really in our worldview, that’s what I’m arguing in the book are, you know, this kind of reductionistic paradigm that sees the world in a very particular kind of way? We have all been indoctrinated to have we’ve been to college and live in this culture. It’s it’s like fish in water. It’s so part of our way of thinking that no wonder people are stressed and they go oh, well, the the meditation that Dr. Benson pulled out of the yoga, the Himalayas and the yogi’s practicing there, you can learn in three quick steps, follow your breath, breathe diaphragmatic diaphragmatic Lee, and return to your breath. If you become distracted, I can put that in my pocket, and in 20 minutes, shift my nervous system, so I feel calm. And I say congratulations, hurray. But then you still have to operate in the world and how you’re operating in the world, you are still being driven by instincts and impulses. And those instincts and impulses are based in a swirling cauldron of paradigm view, how you see yourself as an atomic structure visa V, the rest of the world and how you’re, you’re you’re moving slowly on a treadmill to a precipice into the abyss because your culture tells you you’re nothing but brain jelly. And that once the the electric magnetic, you know activity in your brain ceases, you cease and once you cease, you’re nothing and if you’re nothing, then what’s the point? And if what’s the point then why not gobble up all the resources because tomorrow we shall die? And that is exactly if a billion people do that and and and and fueled by the corporate greed and the hedonic treadmill and the the the capitalistic agenda as like amplifiers fuel on that fire, then you can see how, in a way we are in a terrible terrible mess. Yeah, that got you

Rick Archer: your blood boiling than they used to be a beer commercial that said, you only go around once in this life. So grab all the gusto, you can get a

Miles Neale: very beautiful marketing ploy. Right? It really feeds into the fear inside of you and the lust inside of you. It’s a perfect setup. You know, hedonism and nihilism are like bed friends, they go really well together.

Rick Archer: Yeah, there’s a book on my shelf behind me. I don’t know if people can see it. But it’s well, it’s it’s you can’t see it from here. But it’s it’s by a guy named Mark Gober, who I interviewed a few months ago, it’s called the end to upside down thinking, and he’s recently put up, put up a podcast called where’s my mind? And I think it’s, it’s such an important topic, because basically, what he’s saying is he alluded to what you just said, which is that, you know, we came out of the sort of the Dark Ages, with the science with the sort of the, the enlightenment, and then the Renaissance and the scientific revolution, which tended to purge all the Hocus Pocus, thinking of the, you know, religion dominated Dark Ages, but ushered us into, you know, Cartesian model of the world, his mind and body are separate, and the world is material stuff, and dead, inanimate, dumb rent matter. And the universe is a sort of accident of some sort, this sort of random billiard ball, a collection of particles. And like you said, when you when you die, that’s it. Um, and his whole premise and one of the things that comes up all the time on this show, is that consciousness is fundamental not matter. Consciousness in the brain serves as a transmitter or receiver for consciousness. But it’s not merely the creator of consciousness, consciousness is more fundamental than that. And that, I think, is the ultimate paradigm shift that our society has to undergo in order to really do an about face. And, you know, I’m talking too much, but let me just wrap it up and to say that, you know, the more fundamental level at which we can affect some sort of change The more far reaching and profound that change will be. And I think that may be the ultimate paradigm, it has the ultimate leverage for really shifting the course of the of the ocean liner of humanity away from the iceberg.

Miles Neale: I couldn’t agree with you more. And I mean, that’s one of the that’s one of the impulses for me to write a book like gradual awakening, because once you get someone interested in meditation, let’s say, let’s say mindfulness serves its purpose and 1000s, hundreds of 1000s more people get interested. And then they do an eight week course or a six week course and they learn how to relax and but there’s really not a follow up right? There, their options are to go to a very traditional yoga center, or they to go to India or to go to study with a lama. And that’s sometimes a very large leap, to go from secular mindfulness right to the other side of the pendulum to a deep dive in an immersive cultural experience. And so my My hope is to provide a landbridge because in my own life, I have had a foot in two worlds, I spent 20 years of my life studying with the lamas, and deeply invested in cultural travel and cultural immersion and, and in my own private life, I’m a Buddhist, Tibetan Buddhists through and through, and yet I am also clinically trained and live in a scientific paradigm and appreciate the benefits of science and have credentialed and, and have to be accountable to an ethical board and all the rest and live in and live in this culture. This is my culture, this Sarah and Sarah and scientific culture. And so I’ve had to find a way to articulate then the next step or the next horizon. And so that really led me to a very profound map within the Tibetan culture called the LOM rim, or the gradual stage path map, which I think it’s in its essence has two qualities. And I don’t know if you mind me going down this route, please go ahead. The two qualities of the of the of the lamrim are that there it is extremely comprehensive, and it is systematic. And so what does that mean that the comprehensiveness of the lamrim, it said in the 10th century with the master Odisha, who developed this map, he coalesced all the numerous teachings of the Buddha. And so it is metaphorically numbered at some 10,000 teachings of the Buddha. But essentially, we’re not one trick ponies as human beings, we are a very, very complicated species. And so to just have one teaching on mindfulness, or breathwork, or a few asanas is not enough, it’s not enough. So the lamrim cap encapsulates all the numerous teachings of the Buddha, but it’s second quality is even more essential and important to us, which is that it presents them systematically according to the maturation of the individual. And so most of us have gone to university and most of us have started with very basic courses. And as we move along, in core progression, we have internalized these the summation of those, the pith instructions of those courses, and it has set us up for deeper and more complex thinking. And so that is exactly what happened with olam rim is that all the teachings of the Buddha were systematized into a stage progression so that a neophyte could begin seeing the mountain progress to teachings in which there is no mountain and then progressed to the final leg of the journey in which the mountain reappears and a full integration so that one is an effective spiritual being in the world?

Rick Archer: Yeah, I think one important implication of what you’re saying is that there kind of two steps to progress. One is knowledge. And the other is experience. And if one or the other is the focus to the if one is the focus to the exclusion of the other, then you’re not it’s like hopping on one foot and trying to progress. And they can sort of go like legs where you gain a little bit more experience, and then you gain more knowledge that, you know, kind of supplements it, and then you gain more experience more knowledge like that. And in fact, it can work the other way to where knowledge can inspire you to take the next step of experience, you realize, oh, that’s, that’s on the next horizon. I think I’ll go there. But in any case, whether whether one precedes the other, I don’t know. But it seems to me they go hand in hand, and sounds like Balaam. Rin. takes that into account.

Miles Neale: So they’re very clear about the pedagogy for meditation, at least in this tradition. I’m curious about yours. And if something similar is there, because then maybe it’s an Indic pedagogy and not just a Tibetan one, but they they like to say that and this is where mindfulness comes in yet again, because they like to say that one has to have a very firm conceptual understanding. Then you will do a very deep contemplative analysis on that body of wisdom. And then you will have a meditative experience. In other words, you will have a more integrative experiential, breakthrough or experience of what it is that you had been studying so they call these the three wisdoms the wisdom born of learning or hearing the wisdom born of reflection critical analysis. and the wisdom born of meditation or experience. And I think that is very profound because what we do in our culture is you go to the yoga center and they teach you meditation they ask you to, they ask you mostly if it’s concentration based meditation, they ask you to clear your mind and to focus on an object of attention in order to harness the power of concentration and to achieve some focal quiescent state. Okay, and so what in that question state feels nice, it has internal biological reinforcement contingencies. It feels nice to be steady and calm and clear and tranquil. The problem with it from at least from the Buddhist critique, and I’d send it back to you for the for the yogic one is underlying that qui essence is a seething cauldron of Samskaras. And, and imprints. And so if you don’t use then that qui essence for the purpose of seats, shining the light into those imprints and actually working with those imprints, in a way you’re just on a very nice vacation. You might as well go play golf, because that’s relaxing, too. I apparently I don’t know anything about golf.

Rick Archer: It’s it’s more relaxing than pickleball tell you that. You just ride around a little cart. Yeah, in terms of the Vedic tradition, of which TM was a distillation, there’s definitely an emphasis on both knowledge and experience. And there’s also the whole appreciation of some scars and the stuff that might get on Earth. When we shift to a deeper level of experience. marshy used to call it on stressing. But basically, the understanding is that the mind and body are interrelated, and that the nervous system is full of impressions. Samskaras, you could call them conditioned stuff that’s lodged in the nervous system. And that when the mind settles down deeply in meditation, the body follows along and into a state of deep rest. And in that deep breath, the Samskaras start to unwind or start to be released. And then that causes some corresponding uptick in mental activities and says an uptick in physical activity taking place, and that you experiences thoughts in meditation, or in extreme cases, if you’re on a long course, all kinds of wild stuff as the deeper, deeper impressions begin to be released. I mean, I can tell you stories. But there’s this sort of step, two step progression of purifying the nervous system and releasing all that stuff. And it’s understood that you really have to do that in order for anything to become an abiding experience, rather than just a momentary one.

Miles Neale: Good. Nice. Now. And while we’re

Rick Archer: on this topic, before we totally get off at someone send in a question. Some somebody named me put my glasses on. So Ruesch, from Toronto, wondering, how is TM different from mindfulness? And are there aspects of TM or mantra based meditations that are more beneficial than practice than traditional Buddhist mindful practices, mindfulness practices. So maybe we quickly contrast the two, if you can tell us about mindfulness, I can say how that might differ from TM, as I understand it

Miles Neale: in the two digit traditional format, Formula formula for mindfulness starts with a very narrow point of focus. So if we return to the imagery of the in a different context, the imagery of a telephoto lens, then the Four Foundations of Mindfulness begin with a very narrow focal point of focus on the body. And typically, this is the breath and so I think all traditions Indic. And otherwise, all start there is like focused prayer, shamanic drumming, of visualization on a candle, a mantra. They’re all they’re all tethering the mind to one point of focus. And so I think that’s ubiquitous in all spiritual traditions. And then how mindfulness differs in my understanding is that then one releases the narrow point of focus and opens to present centered awareness where multiple things can be arising that one learns to observe without reaction. So you can you you lift, you lift your attention from the one narrow point of focus in that point of focus, you treat everything else as a distraction. So if a thought comes up, you’re treated as a distraction. If a sensation comes up, you’re treated as a distraction if an emotion comes up, be treated as sound comes up, be treated as a distraction, you’re you’re you’re you’re blocking and preventing your attention from being pulled by this, this sense stimulation or that and as you do that, over time and becomes the concentration ability becomes more robust than your ability to settle your mind on that one point of focus becomes more you have a greater facility for that. But in mindfulness you’re you are actually Opening your attention so that it allows for the sense stimulation stimulation to arise. And there what you’re actually doing has a different purpose. It’s not so much tranquility although tranquility is a good, let’s say precursor or provisional state of mind. But there, what you’re trying to do is exercise your ability to have stimulation arise without the common or habituated reactive mode. So if something pleasant emerges, you’re not treating it as a distraction. You’re saying, I want I want there to be the arising of an urge to scratch or an urge to grasp. But I will just let that urge a rise, but I won’t, I will resist fully allowing myself to, to be led by it. And so there the urge arises and consciousness abides and then ceases without further karmic perpetuation. And what that and then the beautiful thing about that is, is the carryover implication in your everyday life is that you’re filled with these urges. But you have strength of mind in ordinary consciousness to resist those urges, thereby giving yourself enough clarity of mind to make a discerning choice. In other words, not to be led by impulses, but have enough clarity of mind to make a discerning choice. And then think of if there’s someone listening now think about what the implications might be in just everyday life, it’s hugely remarkable. A skill to build.

Rick Archer: Sounds good. I don’t want to say too much about TM, because this, really this interview would be about you. But just to answer the guy’s question. It’s, it doesn’t involve control or concentration in any form, it does involve a mantra, you don’t concentrate on the mantra, you think it effortlessly. And as you do, so you take advantage of what we might call the natural tendency of the mind as he could feel that greater happiness, as as you repeat the mantra, it’s the mind begins to settle down and encounters greater charm, as it does. So subtler levels of the mind are more charming than grosser levels. And you quite often slip into transcendent, no thought, no mantra, no thoughts, and then you come out again, and then you slip in again, then you come out again. And in doing that, you you sort of the physiology gets transformed. And the mind becomes accustomed to functioning at the subtler levels, and reminiscent of what you just said, be becoming accustomed to functioning at subtler levels, it gets in the habit of being able to pick up a thought when it hasn’t become so manifest and therefore so compelling. And so a sort of discernment or discrimination develops in which you can sort of not necessarily act on an impulse or not even have the impulse because you sort of cognize it before it becomes an impulse or before it becomes something that grips or overshadows the mind. And I can say a lot more, but I think I’ll leave it at that.

Miles Neale: That’s beautiful. Rick, thank you so much. I’ve never heard heard it put quite that way. And I loved your word, charm. That was that’s poetic. Really. It’s a nice metaphor. Yeah. Well,

Rick Archer: you know, I don’t know what they say in Buddhism. But in the Vedic tradition, they always talk about a Nanda you know, such it, Ananda consciousness is supposed to be blissful. And if that’s really the case, then it would seem that if you’re moving in the direction of experiencing more fully, you should encounter greater happiness in a sense.

Miles Neale: Yeah, really nice.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Okay, so I have a lot more things I want to talk about with you here and feel free from your side. Whenever as we’re going along to just bring up anything that comes to mind. Don’t just wait for me to ask questions. You, one of the main points you wanted to talk about was working with and not bypassing trauma, and you actually have a course on trauma informed dharma. Let’s talk about that for a few minutes.

Miles Neale: Well, this is, you know, part again, this is I think it’s fair to say that people that are writing books or designing courses, I imagine they resonate with the sentiment that you’re trying to work something out in your own life, you know, so, you know, as a therapist, I basically my entire career has been focused on the spiritual community working with people in the spiritual community, whether that be yoga or Buddhism or people. Nowadays, I’m getting a lot of knocks on the door from people coming from shamanic journeys and journeys and ayahuasca use, I mean, interesting explosion of that has really knocked me back. I guess they have amazing eye opening and sometimes terrifying eye opening experiences, but then they need someone to help process that information. In any event, I you know, I’ve seen people with 1015 20 years of of dedicated earnest practice meditation or otherwise, maybe they might be celebrity yoga teachers with a big following or someone who spent 20 years learning in a meditation community and has, has had all the initiations and the tantric visualization. regiment, but then you know, they fail to maintain a relationship or they can’t manage money or they have some addiction or they have some very deep seated shame. Maybe they have depression that they’re obscuring, maybe they have a weight problem. So there there ends up being some sort of disconnect. And of course, you know, John Wellwood in the early 80s, coined this term. B, because he was he was basically working in the same industry or field, he was a therapist working with Yogi’s and California meditators, you know, fresh out of the 60s revolution and 20 years into like a program and still having great impasses you know, places where places where they should have apparently, according to all that effort, should have had awakening experiences. But in a way, we’re feeling very stuck left behind, paralyzed and creating, in my estimation, a big divide between one’s spiritual life and the ugly side of one’s personality or the ugly side of one’s predicament human side. And that’s a very polarizing divide. And so I just,

Rick Archer: I, you were gonna say he coined the term spiritual bypassing that’s right

Miles Neale: spiritual bypassing and let’s define it so he’s defining it as the the use of spiritual technologies and insights to sidestep or by or circumvent painful wounds from from one’s life, you know, so in another and you can’t blame people see, the thing is, is I never want to disparage people who are bypassing, in fact, I want to raise my hand and say, I’ve done so much bypassing in my life, that I’m acutely acutely sensitive to it, and another human being which is an asset, because it comes really, if you just break it down from a human point of view, none of us want to feel pain. It is as it is as primary and primal as that no creature no sentient life wants to experience pain. And so we are gravitating through the world looking for ways to circumvent pain and and and when you enter, if you list listen carefully, the stories of people who find their way to spiritual technology or spiritual traditions, inevitably 99.9 of them say, Well, I was coming through the door of the great Dharma door of suffering. You know, I was in a lot of pain, I had cancer, I had a breakup, I lost all my money, I was hitting rock bottom, I was an alcoholic. And I found this thing. And this thing said it had a pride held out the promise for something that I had been searching for for a long time. And so But inevitably, there is there is very much in my experience the observation that even within once passing through the threshold into the spiritual world, and even with these great technologies, and I don’t discount their purported potential to awaken people. But we also are incredibly capable of self delusion, and blindness, and selective selectivity. So it is very, very helpful to have someone who can look into your rear view mirror and watch your blind spot as, as you progress spiritually, there may be unwanted painful aspects of your life you don’t want to look at. And you will find inevitably that after a long bout of spiritual practice, you will eventually pewter out in some way or some part of you won’t grow. And you will be stuck in some part. And you will despair as a result of it. And you might actually impact other people as a result of that blindness. And so I think it’s only in the spirit of that, that I began really making a concerted effort in my courses, to really a rename the phenomenon in the vein of John Wellwood, make sure that that message continues to get across. But then also using my experience of all the clinical training that I have. What about just empowering people in the basic sciences and the latest trauma research as a spiritual endeavor? Why is that not spiritual? And I cannot tell you, Rick, the amount of resistance that I have found when trying to infiltrate certain spiritual communities and say, Hey, I’m a psychologist, I have a background in this and that, I’d love to give lectures on trauma. What kind of resistance comes up is unbelievable, and also very telling

Rick Archer: what kind of is and why.

Miles Neale: Well, let’s say when the example that’s coming to mind is, as you know, there has been a whole slew of scandals in the guru relationship in both yoga and Tibetan Buddhism of late in the last five years, but maybe the stretches back many, many more years, but it seems to me to be amplified more recently. And there are reasons for that, but but people know of me in this region on the northeast and in New York City and the kind of work that I do and so, some students in certain communities find their way way to me and they say, Well, you come because our we’ve had a great schism. And and there’s a lot of there’s people are really in pain. And we’d like to invite you to help sort of debrief people and help them process their experience and to provide some insight about the basic human side of things. And inevitably, they make they put me in contact with somebody who either never returns my call or never returns my email or says work or says, we’re handling it in house, big red flag. Yeah. So, so then I just said, well, at least let me prepare these courses, and put them out myself. And hopefully, people can find them. And these these is, this is a set of six lectures and a workshop. It’s supposed to be tight and cogent that gives people some of the current science not so much scientific that it’s at the professional level, it’s more at the lay level for real practitioners, people who are like your community who are interested in meditation and have done yoga, but also may be depressed or maybe anxious, or maybe have a trauma experience and not really have dealt with it. And that will show up in so many ways, such as, you know, issues with money, or the inability to tolerate vicissitudes of emotionality, or intense relationships that that, that end up splitting or fragmenting. So these are all the warning signs that trauma is still is still very much at play in the psyche. And then the problem is, is that your spiritual advisor, or your spiritual community will just say, go and do more practice? Mm hmm. Or you haven’t done enough? Or you’re not doing it? Right, which is, which is very insidiously shaming people. Do you have any thoughts on this before I continue? Because I know, I know that you’ve been around all this, because you’ve created some resources and networks for people, Rick, that that are exactly addressing this kind of thing.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I didn’t create them by myself. But there’s this association for spiritual integrity that I helped create with a few friends that because we’ve seen so much of the kind of thing you’re talking about, and felt like there ought to be some kind of code of ethics that people could get familiar with, and come to expect in spiritual teachers, because I’ve seen so many cases where spiritual teachers do crazy things. And then people rationalize, they say, Well, you know, they’re enlightened, and I’m not. So what do I know? In fact, just yesterday, I was reading something on Facebook, where this guy was, who’s actually been on BatGap, I guess I won’t name him was arguing that, you know, children Trumper and Alan Watts drinking themselves to death was probably a perfectly legitimate thing for them. It’s like, okay, an enlightened being can drink himself to death, maybe that’s just their dharma or something like that. And I say, the otic. I know, that’s basically what it said in response. I said, I’m sorry. But, you know, I mean, the subtitle of your book is becoming fully human part of the subtitle. And if enlightenment or realization is being fully human does, you know, chronic alcoholism go along with being fully human? And if so, why would we aspire to it? Why would you want it you can have it. So, so part of my thing is, I mean, I feel very strongly that it’s not wrong to be a bit idealistic in one’s expectations of what enlightenment or higher consciousness should bring. It should make you more fully human more in a more ideal person and your behavior, both your personal behavior and your interactions with others. And this sort of Crazy Wisdom, bad boy behavior that is sometimes been, you know, rationalizes just legitimate for some reason is inappropriate, it’s wrong.

Miles Neale: It’s a misuse of hierarchy. And it’s predatorial in my estimation, I have a very strong reaction to it, because I’ve now not only experienced it personally in certain experiences, but I’m also fielding so many very, very damaged and wounded people as a result of this kind of thinking. And it creates a huge divide in which certain students in these centers idealize their figure and then hook line and sinker, adopt their their their wrongdoings as somehow justified, whereas other people who intuitively feel absolutely wounded by these teachers have no recourse and are shamed and in a way excommunicated, which when you have found a spiritual community, you realize how essential it is to human development to feel part of a network and to feel like you’re at home. And so when these things happen, it is deeply deeply deeply shaming and then it drives it drives people’s intuition that something is off underground, and and it leaves them in a very polarized position where they have to they have to make a very difficult choice to leave and in a way leaving is like a zebra or leaving the herd on the on the, on the on the prairie or or they stay put and suffocate their intuition that something is off. And I think that is the the beginning, if not the the middle and end of a cold like atmosphere, you know, because it’s so stymieing and stifling the individual’s personal development. Yeah.

Rick Archer: And it sort of progresses by degrees. It’s like that old, an adult hope, hope this isn’t really a true thing. But they say, you know, you can put a frog in water and heat it up gradually, and the frog might jump out because it doesn’t realize the water is getting warmer, you know, whereas if you throw it in hot water, it’ll hop right out. So it happens by degrees and your your, your mentality, or your psychology shifts along with a group, and could go way off the rails without you even realizing that there’s anything wrong.

Miles Neale: Absolutely. And I can tell you the most challenging thing in 15 years of clinical practice that I’ve ever seen is trying to uncondition someone who has been thoroughly brainwashed through and through by a cold light figure. It is it is because I think of I mean, brain surgery or heart surgery seems more straightforward, because you can locate the you know, you can locate, you can locate the blocked artery and targeted and surgically remove it or, but when it’s psychic, and it has to do with someone’s all pervasive worldview, the very way you see yourself in the world, and it has been indoctrinated very subtly over a period of time in which you lose yourself. The reprogramming of that to me has just been an enormous, enormous, humbling task that has to be held and with at least at least to the very foundation, love and positive regard and seeing and not shaming someone, and really, really mirroring and validating just how disconnected and their intuition was set, sending them warning signs that they refuse to hear. But then to go back to those warning signs and acknowledge them and say, Yes, there was something off here. You are not crazy, and you are not alone.

Rick Archer: Yeah, yeah. So one of the reasons I feel strongly about this is not only what you’ve just said about the harm it does to individuals, but that longer paragraph of yours that I read earlier about how this you know, meditation, and spirituality is tied into the condition of our culture as a whole. And that if our culture is to really be transformed, you know, spirituality has a very important pivotal role to play. But if the representatives of spirituality behave like this, then they’re sabotaging that role. They’re weakening it, they’re under undercutting it. And that has huge societal implications, as well as an individual for those who are around them.

Miles Neale: I couldn’t agree with you more. But I also am of late really trying to empower students from the outset that they shouldn’t abandon even in selecting a spiritual teacher. And I don’t consider myself one. And I always invite really true. Well, well established teachers into my classes, and encourage and encourage students to seek out really qualified people. I consider myself a spiritual friend, call Liana neitra, someone who walks the path side by side with somebody but who doesn’t have any major realization or anything? No, no spiritual authority. But I have I’d also don’t I also don’t think that that’s woowoo I do believe there are evolved people and I have have very close associations with them. And I do try to encourage people to meet with with the tradition and the lineage mentors who do have good grounding and good spiritual acumen. But I also think it’s important though not to over emphasize the role of the teacher, but also to bring people up to speed and make and make sure that at the outset of their training, they never, they never unconsciously make themselves too susceptible. In other words, they should be empowered from the outset that this this whole this whole journey is not really to give up yourself so that the teacher can take advantage of you or impregnate you with some wisdom that you don’t have but that from the outset you have this wisdom and don’t abandon your good sense and your intuition at any point. At any point if your intuition is telling you something is off or something is not right or I didn’t like that or there seems to be some disconnect between what they say and what they what they what they do or this or everybody you know everybody’s to glossy I’d have your you must have heard of and seeing the glossy I’d phenomenon when you go into these spiritual communities and everybody’s like a child with the flicker and glimmer in their eyes looking at the guru i Listen, please call them listening is listening ease. Guess the I don’t want to even disparage the bliss ninnies, because there’s a there’s a really deep psychoanalytic reason that people need to see spiritual teachers in that way because of their own Arrested Development, not having the parental figure in their life that would have mirrored them successfully to the place where they could feel empowered themselves. And so I think that knowing that lens is incredibly powerful as a teacher so that I don’t foster that kind of a idealization, but rather put it back on someone and keep insisting, yes, you’re on a path. Yes, you need help. Yes, there’s a tradition. Yes, you should take refuge Yes, you should abandon things that don’t work for you. Yes, you should adopt things that will work for you. But don’t abandon yourself and your intuition and your sense of stature and your sense of confidence. And they should, they should be merging in parallel and growing in parallel as you go along. Because then I think you’ll find yourself really relating to a teacher from a place of maturity, rather than spending 10 or 15, or even 20 years, I’ve had experiences of 20 years, where then people have to backtrack after a scandal and a breakup, and an exposure and a fragmentation and to reclaim their good sense that has been buried.

Rick Archer: Yeah, boy, you’re, you’re preaching to the choir, but I love the song, because because this is such an important point. And I feel I feel very keenly. There’s a great quote from the Buddha, you probably know, in which he says something like, you know, don’t believe anything, just because somebody says that, even if I say it, you know, use your own judgment, your own common sense, you know, your own intelligence to discern whether it’s true or not.

Miles Neale: Yeah, that’s the testing, testing, a testing gold as a goldsmith rubs, rubs and tests and analyzes and critiques and spends an enormous amount of time making sure that it’s legit. I mean, it’s so true, right? If people shop on Amazon for a vacuum, I was looking at a vacuum the other day, and like the amount of time I spent, like finding out which one will work and which one will do this. And then how much time do we actually spend, like looking at our teachers, and you know, they say, really, before you take a teacher in that profound way, from the Guru Yoga point of view, you should spend 12 years analyzing at a distance before you really take them into heart. Because that 12 years will give you enough really insight to see like, Where are their imperfections and where are their shortfalls. And as someone who’s really, really truly reliable, and I don’t, I think people are in a rush. I mean, they’re in a rush for obvious reasons, because they’re in a lot of pain. And I think there’s some fantasy about, you know, Tibetan monks in robes, you know, like, you know, there is that kind of, there’s a lot of fantasy at play, you know, and I’m really not about the fantasy, I really want to just make things as real and as apparent as possible, and to really empower people. And so that’s what I’m trying to do in this course, trauma informed Dharma, which is really to help empower people not only use their spiritual practice more effectively, but really to learn enough about their own psyche and to take responsibility for their own traumatic imprints. So that they can really use both effectively as almost like a true integration. And I do believe that’s where we are in time in place, culturally, I think it’s time not to be so myopic, not to be so adherent to one tradition. There’s no sense in my there’s no justification in my in my view, that we can’t make a more integrative system by really taking a very long, good look at a multidisciplinary and caught cross cultural approach. So drawing on psychology and the latest trauma, reason search, and then fusing it with your your yoga practice or fusing it with Buddhism. These are not these are not contradictory. They’re highly, highly complementary. And through them, you get a much broader and much vaster perspective on your own well being and your own psyche.

Rick Archer: Yeah, good point, we live in a scientific age, and that’s not going to go away. And if if spirituality is going to rise to counterbalance science, the two of them are not going to be an opposition, they can actually be in collaboration, and each has something to offer the other that can actually enhance it, the whole the whole will be more than the collection of its parts.

Miles Neale: I really firmly I’ve been I feel that that that’s I think that that’s our opportunity right now. And I was thinking about we were we could be in danger of a pendulum swing between science and religion, let’s say okay, where 350 years ago in the enlightenment, we we discovered and called out the disconnect with the faith based blind faith and authoritarian nature, authoritarian nature of religion, which needed to happen, right. Yeah,

Rick Archer: I mean, it was it was sick. It was burning people at the stake for believing that the earth wasn’t the center of the universe, you know?

Miles Neale: Yeah. And you had you had a you had somebody on on the show who had a book upside down thinking was it? Well, that was the guy was referring to mark Gober? Yeah, Mark. So, you know, I, I’m totally agreeing in agreement with that, I see that, you know, we came to recognize that we had to easily given up our individual power, and subscribe to blind faith, which in a way, was our undoing for many centuries. And so we had to displace the central authority of the Church and reclaim our own inherent conviction as as as individuals, so the Age of Reason is really the age of the individual. But then that pendulum swing goes too far the other side And that’s where we are 350 years, which is not a long time to ruin the planet unbelief. It’s really inconceivable how incredibly powerful we are that in 350 years of so called enlightenment, the age of reason and the power of the intellect and the left brain and our manipulation of matter how conceited and how much hubris we have, because we were displaced from ethics, and we were displaced from a spiritual basis. And so we could be in danger of going so far to the other side that we keep swinging back and forth between science and religion. And I think the opportunity really is is to reconcile them in what the Buddha would call a middle way where the best of science is, I think science as a as an endeavor as an as a mode of investigation is really good. I think science turning into dogma as Richard Rupert Sheldrake has, as in I know, he’s been on your show, and I love Rupert Sheldrake. It science can so easily become its own dogma, and in a way the scientists just replace the priests or the Brahmin caste with their power structures.

Rick Archer: Yeah, they’re not even scientific anymore when they become dogmatic like that.

Miles Neale: Yeah, so then that’s what I would say is like the coming to the middle ground is taking the investigative quality or the inquiry, The Open Mind is this that science should really be coming from, but then to you to unite it and to and to merge it with the with the sense that not not everything is material and that that we are actually energetic beings, we are consciousnesses is the underpinning once we have those things reconciled, I think we will be in a much better position.

Rick Archer: Yeah, one thing, one thread I wanted to tie up before we lose it, is that when we were talking about the home guru model, and teachers behaving badly, and so on, and so forth, that’s that a lot of people.

Miles Neale: Listen, it’s really horrible. I mean, really people’s lives, people, maybe some of your own listeners, I mean, I wrote many of them, my heart goes out to you. And I just want to have a message to some of that want to speak directly to anybody who intuitively know something is wrong and does not have the courage to speak up. You don’t have to challenge your guru outright in public. But please, please follow your intuition and find a a, a receptive ear outside your community, someone who can give you an objective place to unpack and unload your emotional, whoa, I just cannot stress that enough. Please do that.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Or take a break, go go on vacation someplace and see if you feel like going back after a few months, once you see what life can be like on the outside. But I just want to say though, that you know, people you’re talking about swinging from, you know, science to spirituality and so on, and throwing the baby out with the bathwater a lot of people have jumped to the conclusion that the age of the Guru is over and the whole guru model is is obsolete. And I feel glad you’re bringing this up. Yeah, that can be an extreme too, because there’s something to be said for devotion and for the sort of mind melding that can take place in association with someone who is truly realized and is actually worthy of sitting in the teachers position. And if we just if we take too radical reaction to, you know, the unfortunate some of the unfortunate things that have happened, will throw out that whole possibility that will eliminate that possibility.

Miles Neale: I couldn’t agree with you more, Rick, you know, like I this is what I’m saying is that people get very emotionally charged. And once you’re emotional, you lose some of your reason. And once you lose some of your reason, you lose complexity. And to be very frank, that is exactly what’s happening politically in this country and around the globe. Right now we’re extremely polarized, we cannot have any discussion of any depth, everything is emotionally charged. And it becomes very juvenile. I mean, we are talking mature, you know, older people acting like children that they’re not, we’re not listening. And so and then part and part of the symptom of this is that people go oh, well, the Guru’s of their few of them have acted out and they’ve acted inappropriately. The age of the age of the Guru is dead and Okay, so now what you have done is you have just juvenile juvenile lays become childlike in your perspective, because you can only see things in black and white, we either we have the group or we don’t have the group. Well, that’s just crazy. I mean, I mean, the Guru’s will always serve as an archetype will always serve us because all the guru really represents is a LandBridge. To your own intuition. You always need a landbridge you need a tool, you need assistance, to help you access something within you. Now, if you dispense with that, it’s like dispensing with the tool or the LandBridge. And that’s crazy. On the other hand, what what is really about is making more complexity. And that requires you to understand the value of the guru but then also value your own dignity and that’s what suffering right Now is that people don’t have enough dignity in themselves. Another word for dignity is self confidence. Now she’s gonna say, Yeah, you know. And so that’s what leads to being served. Putting yourself in a vulnerable position with an authority figure who can then manipulate you. But we should always remember that not all authority figures are manipulative, we have so many of them. If you say get rid of the guru, then what you’re saying is get rid of all authority. And I’m telling you, people are rah, rah, rah around this right now get rid of all authority. Do you have any idea what that would look like in a chaotic world to get rid of power structures and authority and hierarchies completely? I mean, that’s crazy. But what we need to do is we need to be more discerning about our authority figures, but then we have to be more empowered in our relationship with them. That is a middle way. Hmm.

Rick Archer: Yeah, so many interesting tidbits in what you’re saying. But um, I guess, you know, self confidence, it’s, it’s like many qualities that we have in life, it’s not something that we go from zero to 100, in one moment, it’s something that has to grow as we mature. But I guess if our words can matter, then we’re just saying, you know, trust yourself a bit more trust your intuition, trust your common sense. If something seems wrong, you know, don’t doubt yourself so much. I mean, on the one hand, we don’t want to be just sort of caulk sure of ourselves and rejecting everything, because we think we know it all. But on the other hand, we do know something. And and, you know, if something really seems to clash with our common sense, with our, with our sense of virtue, with our sense of human values, and so on, then we should listen to that.

Miles Neale: I agree, I totally. And I don’t think that’s always the message. And then I’d also think we’re selective in what we hear. And if we have some Arrested Development in early childhood, or some traumatic wounding, and we’re idealizing other people by name or by by, by instinct or necessity, then we can, then we can dislodge our good sense, because we want to be in the good graces of the of the Lord. And another way that I, you know, like, parents are God’s children. And so, so yeah, I agree with you common sense is should be should be never dispensed with. And I think people need to also be much more ready to risk and take a trial approach. In other words, experiment with things be much more experimental and less risk averse. So you take things that the teacher has said, and then you put them into practice, but you don’t, you’re not unwilling to come back and say, that didn’t work for me or I don’t understand or, or what is this? You know, like, why are why why why did you say that? But then I saw you do this. And so that’s how you have a more balanced relationship with a teacher is that there, you don’t dispense with your critical inquiry, and you’re able to have some pushback and demand some countability mutual accountability? Yeah. And so I think so that’s what I tried to do with students is is out from the outset, say, like, if you’re, if you’re, you know, gobbling it up. That’s not going to work here, you know, perhaps one

Rick Archer: earmark of a worthy teacher qualified teachers that they’ll be fine with that, you know, they’ll be fine with mutual accountability. And would you call them on their stuff? If you see some stuff? I mean, not that you want to be a big troublemaker, but they’re open to critical feedback.

Miles Neale: I want I want your listeners to know that is precisely one of the symptoms where or red flags that if you are challenging someone, and you should be very respectful with how you challenge someone and don’t make assumptions, right? Okay. But you should feel free to challenge somebody. And if you don’t feel free, that is a symptom or a red flag or a warning sign that something is going on.

Rick Archer: Yeah, if you’re shamed or belittled in front of the audience or whatever, but when you challenge

Miles Neale: or there’s a lack of receptivity, or no one’s listening, or Yes, exactly. I think that’s a good a good telltale sign that something that there there’s an investment in making sure you’re a good little girl or a good little boy.

Rick Archer: Yeah, a couple of questions came in and I, the first one, I want to ask in the context of something we’ve been discussing. We were discussing trauma. And you mainly talked about trauma in terms of how students of contemporary spiritual teachers are often traumatized, and we’ve gone off on a whole discussion about that. But obviously, there’s also plenty of other trauma, traumatic things that happen in life, I mean, sexual trauma in childhood, sometimes or alcoholic parents or, you know, soldiers getting PTSD or children these days being traumatized by all the school shootings, even if they hadn’t haven’t had one in their own school. So there are plenty of sources of trauma, and we’ve talked about those as getting deeply rooted in the nervous system as some scars. So as imprints, so So, someone, Savita from Bangalore asked a short question, how can one remove deep rooted imprints some scars without meditation?

Miles Neale: Oh, that’s that’s a great question. But let’s let’s back up a little bit and make sure that we’re defining trauma. There are there are, we could just in a pop culture way we could say there are big traumas, big, big T traumas. Those are the traumas like war, Fallout rape, the big collisions or big impact traumas. But what then we should also not underestimate the little T traumas, which are considered some sometimes defined in the literature as developmental trauma, or like this developmental traumas, when you should have gotten something from a nurturing parent and didn’t or got something that you shouldn’t have gotten. In other words, when you needed consistency, and care and validation and support and didn’t get it, or when you got a persistent kind of judgment, or ridicule or criticism from a loved one or an authority figure. And that was painful, and you couldn’t do anything about it, because you’re in a paralyzed dependent position. So these are these are smaller impacts that have more enduring trade effects on your confidence and your well being and your ability to navigate relationships and navigate your own nervous system. Okay, so we could put them as we could be, we could say that there’s two kind of categories and not treat them as one kind of thing but but there but the way to the way to deal with them is remarkably the same. They have there are some very up pertinent qualities in the in the healing of trauma. And and certainly you don’t have to be meditating to do these. In fact, it’s, it’s one of the essential I’d like to say there’s at least three qualities of trauma. One is that it is trauma is it’s invisible. Okay, trauma is invisible, trauma is relational, and trauma is in the body. These are what I would consider the three hallmarks of trauma. This is not from the literature, this is not sort of professional level this is lay, for lay people out there wanting to know a little bit about trauma and how to deal with it. Here’s the little nutshell. It is invisible. Trauma is not just you know, when you get hit by a car and you have an injury and the bone is split through your your leg that is visible, that’s physical trauma, or you get hit by a bat, and that’s blunt force trauma. But emotional trauma is invisible people people can look absolutely ordinary to you, but they hold within their deep psyche, the very shameful, painful scars of the past so it is invisible. So don’t ever underestimate the person sitting next to you on the subway, what they hold with inside them because what we should never judge a book by its cover. And we should never minimize somebody’s trauma impact because it’s very subjective. Somebody can. Somebody can be laughed at and bullied at school. And it can be absolutely crippling for them. And there’s so many subjective levels to this. So trauma is relational trauma is relational means that it isn’t a moat. We are emotionally sensitive creatures. And we basically grow up in the resonance of our relationship with others, particularly caregivers. That’s the crucible or the womb in which we develop is our relational attunement with others. And so breaches in that attunement places where validation weren’t there releases were mirroring weren’t there places where attunement was interrupted when anxiety was was the you were met with anxiety or you were met with hostility or you were met with rupture. These create fragmentations and and those fragmentations are the telltale scars of emotional relational trauma. So we could say that trauma is relational related. And therefore if we’re saying that trauma is invisible, and we’re trained, we’re saying that trauma is relational. The third one is that it’s it’s in the body. So, rightly so, as you say, and just as the Indian literature is said in the Samskaras, that the the imprints and the impasses of those traumas are not well processed in the, in the, in the hippocampus of the brain, they In other words, trauma or memory is usually stored, like a photograph like a clear picture. Like if I asked you about your high school graduation, you can call up to mind a beautiful image of 19. When was it Rick,

Rick Archer: I dropped out. I got a high school equivalency diploma in Bridgeport, Connecticut, I can remember sitting in a room and taking a test.

Miles Neale: There it is, the memory just popped up. Which means under those conditions, you’re able to process memories appropriately but under under duress, with the toxins that are released in your body and the neurotransmitters in your body, your hippocampus is shut down and you’re not able to consolidate and store trauma memories or memories of during trauma. And so that I like into a mirror that gets thrown on the floor and gets fragmented into shards. So the sights, sounds, tastes smells I have autobiographical reference of me and time and space All of them get fragmented and lost. And they get, they get lodged in the body. Okay, and so 10 years later, when you’re walking down the road and you smell some weird perfume, and you have a panic attack, and you don’t know what happened, or you’re in the yoga center, and the yoga teacher comes and adjusts you in a position and moves you slightly to the left, and puts their hand on your side, and you burst into anger, or something happens, and you hear a mute sound piece of music, and you just utterly, utterly shatters you. The reason that that’s happening is that real world data are coming into your perception and firing, these stored latent imprints that have not been processed. So they are unbeknownst to you. And what that toxic upheaval of emotion is, is all the frozen emotions that you should have released during impact 20 or 15, or 30 years ago, but because it’s not a picture, it’s not a clear picture, it feels like it’s happening right now. And so you leave the yoga class or you don’t put on that perfume anymore, and you judge yourself about why am I so weird and spastic? And why are people looking at me? And why am I having this reaction? And so that the shame, then the shame, just redoubles the trauma, in other words, you become re traumatized. So to get back to this person’s inquiry, how do you heal this without meditation, as according to the second principle, that trauma, trauma is relational, it’s actually much more effective to work with somebody and not try to do this on your meditation cushion, because the very nature of the injury sustained was was occurred in the context of a relationship. So actually, how do you rehabilitate and this is my, this is my big, my big thing with people who are spiritual bypassing, if you if you had a relationship with somebody whom you really admired, and they broke your trust, and you wrote what I call a soul contract, you said, I’m never gonna trust anyone, again, I’m never gonna do that. And then you go to the high Himalayas, and you sit on your meditation cushion, and you do some very profound pronounced pranayama breathing and some meditation, but you never encounter another relationship in which you risk anything, then that inherent trauma of lack of worthiness and lack of trust, never gets exercised, it never gets worked through. And so what better way to deal with broken trust and relational trauma than to find somebody whom you can rehabilitate that with? In other words, how can you be vulnerable with somebody? How can you grow the sense of accountability and mutual respect? How can you how can you become vulnerable and to feel that they’re really with you and really attuned with you, and that they’re not going to judge you and they’re not going to you ever heard of this corporate trust fall when you’re in a corporation and on the first day to build team exercise, a team building exercise a six of you likely catch a person who’s had somebody, right, somebody’s fault, like on the table, and they’re gonna fall backwards into the arms of a bunch of colleagues or like in the yoga center, you might do a handstand in the middle of the room, and your yoga teachers are supposed to be there to catch you. And in my case, my yoga teacher missed me and I fell back on my back. It’s not funny, I injured my back, right, but that what that does is deteriorate trust, and then tuss, the lack of trust is corrosive, it will. And then you start going, I’m not going to ever put my hands and I’m never going to put my trust in anyone’s hands. And then I’m off to the races, I’m going to take care of myself, I’m just going to do it myself. I’m just going to do life myself. And maybe you get really good at it for 15 or 20 years, you get really good at doing life by yourself. But then you’re a social animal. So how far can you really go without trust, without communication without doing without finding someone to catch you? Not very far. And so that’s the limits of trying to yoga fi your trauma, by doing some spiritual endeavor, because most of those spiritual endeavors involve just you doing solitary practice.

Rick Archer: Yeah. I want to throw in a little esoteric tidbit here, which is that we’ve been talking about traumas being stored in the in the body, but it’s also stored in the subtle body because we carry it from life to life. And if people accept the notion of reincarnation, and people come into this life, sometimes as children remembering traumatic things like plane crashes, and all that happened to them in a previous life, so that’s kind of interesting. And there’s a whole interesting thing we don’t have time to get into about how the brain might actually be an interface with some kind of Akashic field or something where our memories and traumas are actually stored. And, anyway,

Miles Neale: I don’t think it has to be all that esoteric, I think I the way that I describe it as if there are three different three different streams that are parallel, okay, on one level, we have biology and inherit genetic inheritance. We are now understanding that your attitudes and your experiences and the way that you relate to stuff coming up in appearance In life can switch on or switch off certain genetic features. Okay, so we can say that something coming from a past life from a family or ancestry or lineage is you are part of that lineage. And with consciousness, you have the ability to either direct or reinforce certain streams or certain imprints. So we have that in our we have that it’s a different understanding, it’s a materialistic one, it’s a biological one, but with the with the with the with the language around epigenetics, it amounts to something roughly the same thing. And if you don’t like that lens, or you, you can keep that lens there, then the second lens would be what we’re learning about narrative and stories as human beings are very much storytellers. And so if you’re, if you’re, if your ancestors or if your tribe told certain stories about trauma, traumatic impacts, like they were in a famine, or they were in a holocaust, or they were in this, or they were in that, and the way that they frame that was, don’t trust anybody, you’re you have to be in, you have to be exclusive, you have to hold on to scarce resources, because you might, you might, you might never have them again, if that’s the narrative that they share with you. And that’s the crucible in which you, you develop, then that that ancestry comes and shapes your mind and shapes your worldview and shapes your activity. And so that’s the kind of karmic inheritance that would you don’t need to think in past lives. You just think about the power of words and language and stories. Yeah. And the third one would be this one on consciousness that the Indian Indian civilization bequeath to the universe and in terms of its karmic inheritance, and I’m wed and rather than scramble and debate and say, That’s nonsense, and this one, I just say, what it what is the practical implications of all three, they are all essentially saying that you are not a finite, little discrete entity, you are an inheritor of something, and you will bequeath something. And your consciousness is what determines what you are, what how you deal with what you inherit, and what you pass on. And so that is incredibly powerful, and with power comes responsibility. And so that’s really a spiritualized way of understanding what our purposes, these are the our past and our future, we are here to learn lessons, and to purify, and to make better for those that come after us. Whether we believe it’s us in another life, or our offspring, or the story of humanity that we’re sharing in, that’s really becomes our heroic purpose.

Rick Archer: Good. Any one of these points we could talk about all day, but I’m gonna keep moving along here. So there’s a three questions have come in which I want to read you. And also I have a few more points in my notes that I want to be sure, we have time to discuss before we finish. So this is one from David in Korea, he asks, I am absolutely 100%, with your miles on your take that the profound depths of spiritual potential are hopelessly watered down in many methods taught these days. The problem as I see it is both that we are living inside this heavy materialistic science based worldview. And also because we consume news sources invested in wanting us to see the world in ways very biased to the interests of corporate capitalism. I would love to contact you and speak to you about this. But do you not think that we desperately need to access sources of alternative news content that is not heavily smeared by the mainstream to align us more? With what is really going on? Was that David in Korea, was it that was David in Korea,

Miles Neale: thank you so much, please do contact me, David. And yes, absolutely throw out the TV, get rid of the get rid of 100% My children will never watch anything from the mainstream Syndicate, it’s lies, and it’s driven by an agenda. And if you don’t see that, you’re blind. So you have to be you have to stop being dependent and having like, an an IV of lies pumped into your nervous system by corporate mainstream complexes of industrial authority, war mongering, and, and, and, and hell bent on keeping you a product, a product of a capitalistic work wheel where you’re either consuming or producing or both and nothing else. So get rid of it. Absolutely get rid of it. And you know what, it’s a hard thing because we’re all addicted. You know, the gadget tree, it’s very edit and the science is out there, how incredibly compelling and incredibly addictive it is to our chemistry. And so in a way, we’re all addicted and we all need to go to rehab and rehab always says the same thing. Avoid people, places and things that will trigger your addiction. So yes, we should absolutely turn off the television. I have one in the back, you’ll see which we we discriminately put on just a few cartoons for the kids, but I don’t watch any TV I don’t read any mainstream and I and then But then the onus is on me to go and investigate, stop being a child spoon fed from the world and go and find the truth. And that will mean you might make, you might take risks, and you might go down a labyrinth and it might dead end. But you have to go to the core of the of the issue. So don’t read what the commentaries go to what they would say, go to the primary text and read the primary text. So go to the scientific literature, literature, if you don’t know what the climate change sciences, go there and look at the studies, go go and search multiple angles, and multiple journals and see what what they’re all saying. And don’t get fixated on one main line impression that’s coming through. So I completely agree. And I think we have to be much more responsible with the kind of information that we’re digesting because we live in an information age that is designed to overwhelm us and make us a passive consumer of some agenda. And I don’t want to get conspiratorial, but I know some of you out there really concur with this. And so I’m not I’m not shy to, to, to put forward that position.

Rick Archer: No, he didn’t seem shy at all, actually. But I have a more nuanced approach to it. You know, I consume a lot of news from a variety of sources, including Good Morning America, and National Public Radio and NBC News and all but I also, you know, look at other things that are sort of off the mainstream. But I’ve seen people go to the just sort of like ditch all the mainstream media and go to Info Wars, you know, are, you know, one of these things which just buy into every conspiracy theory that that anyone can, can dream up. And that’s,

Miles Neale: that’s my point. If you’re just spoon spoon fed from one source and you lose a gate goes back to this idea with dealing with a guru, you cannot lose your good sense you need to be to take risks and devour money, multiple perspectives, but always those perspectives are come are tested against your own intuitions. Yeah,

Rick Archer: I mean, I I know people in this town who not only think that climate change is a hoax, but that we never put men on the moon and that all the Sandy Hook shooting was, yeah, the world is flat, the Sandy Hook shooting was a false flag operation, it just sort of go off into lala land.

Miles Neale: Although it’s worth going to investigate instead, just look at that stuff. It’s interesting. I mean, it’s good at see I don’t mind that I don’t buy it necessarily. But I have at least done the investigation. You see, it’s, what is it in us that says, Oh, well, someone puts force to this idea that it’s a false flag operation, we can talk about 911. And someone comes and says two planes, three buildings? Well, that’s interesting. Let me go and look at the evidence. Yeah, tower seven and all that I’ve looked at it, you know, what I’m saying? Like, I don’t think that that’s we should we shouldn’t dismiss on either side, maybe we have to be more critical. We have to be more critical.

Rick Archer: Yeah. You know, there’s a kind of a, we could dip back into the spiritual perspective on it here, which is that the term Brahman, as I understand it, mean sort of it means comes from a Sanskrit word, that means great, but the idea is that it’s all inclusive. And my understanding is that you can sort of, you know, you your, your consciousness, your, your awareness can become so inclusive as to incorporate all the polarities, all the diversities, all the, all the sort of ambiguities, and not necessarily, not necessarily see them all as equally valid, but at least sort of incorporate them all within the larger perspective, where they, to some extent, become reconciled as just different facets of a larger reality. Does that make any sense?

Miles Neale: It does, but um, it’s not part I don’t, I don’t, I experientially that’s not how I am, unless I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying, but somehow all level out, or they all sort of,

Rick Archer: well, it’s like the blind men and the elephant thing. You know, the blind men are all feeling different aspects of the elephant and saying, It’s a snake. It’s a trunk it I mean, it’s a it’s a it’s a spear. It’s a it’s a, you know, it’s like flat, like the side of a building. It’s like a tree trunk. And they’re all partially right. And but there’s a larger reality that, you know, there’s more than any one individual perspective. So it doesn’t level out. You know, it doesn’t put astronauts on the same footing as flat Earth conspiracists out, but but at least it gives you the sort of the God’s eye view where you’re willing to kind of take it all in and and not just exclude anything without at least considering it.

Miles Neale: Yeah, I would. I would go for that. Yeah. Because I don’t I also I don’t believe that we’re all on one playing field and everything’s equal and everything has everybody has an equal contribution. I mean, I think that’s just, that’s people just patting themselves on the back because they feel inferior. Yeah.

Rick Archer: I have a friend who believes he’ll hit Listen to this because he’s listened to all my interviews, that the ideal human diet, human diet is neat. And not only meat, but only meat. We shouldn’t eat any plant foods ideally. And we’ll be really healthy if we do that. And I keep listening to him. I haven’t, you know, bought it yet, but I don’t just reject them as another, you know, I say, alright, I’ll listen to this YouTube you want me to listen to and so? Yeah, whatever. It’s not gonna kill me to consider different perspectives. Okay, a couple more questions came in. And I also have some notes, I still want to ask you. This is from Dan in London. He thing he says, I think the integration and appreciation of the relative materialistic world versus the opposite position is reliant on the ability to reconcile paradoxes. Oh, you’re just talking about, such as a paradox, such as we are completely individual beings. And we’re also completely unbounded, dismissing the relative world can be very dangerous. Are there tools to explain and reconcile paradoxes that would help people? I think the scientific materialistic thinking Western worldview has a lot to answer for in why people get stuck here.

Miles Neale: Well, I think we’re kind of intimating it through along but it may be worthwhile to re reinforce the idea that absolutely the scientific, Newtonian paradigm, the reductionistic materialism has served its function and its purpose, but when when it gets co opted by an authoritarian regime that is has a sort of agenda or investment and and part of that investment means that it precludes or dismisses or disparages other traditions which it has done right where we, we disparage and have become so skeptical of other cultures and indigenous presentations of sacred wisdom culture that hold out a different worldview, then that becomes dangerous, then that becomes dangerous. And so I think it is entirely possible to have a Newtonian and a quantum and to know and to have the facility of mind to discern when when you use one lens and when you lose another. So that’s why by nature in my career, I’m an integrative integrative practitioner, I like to use both the mind science from Tibetan Buddhism. But in studying psychology, I’m able to look at Tibetan Buddhism and also find its potential limitations and vice versa. So it’s very helpful to have a multiplicity of views because it helps you self correct and not get stuck in myopia or to shut down or to have some claim to the ultimate truth stance. And in Buddhism, that ultimate truth stance is negated at the at the pinnacle, it’s called the teacher teachings of emptiness which are itself designed to help you do a road any sense of reifying any position even the position of emptiness, which is called the emptiness of emptiness. So emptiness is like a medicine of the mind. So wherever the mind is standing with a flagpole saying I claim reality here, emptiness comes along and shows will show me where here is and you look under your toe and you look under the feet, you look under your feet, you find ground and then you thought you can’t find ground you know, if you look carefully, and so if you cannot find ground your ground you cannot claim authority and put your flagpole there and so, then you step over to somewhere else and you go this is where it is, and I claim this as ultimate reality and emptiness comes along this is show me. And so what emptiness does is it helps erode the habitual tendency of the mind to want to reaffirm or reify any particular philosophical worldview or position, even the tool or the medicine of emptiness itself cannot be reified. In other words, it has you can even say emptiness is unfindable. And what that does is help open your mind and the image of an open mind is that beautiful circle in the Zen tradition, the Ink Brush is made of a circle. But if you look carefully, the circle is incomplete. And then that is designed to be a depiction of the openness of your mind to the nature of reality that it’s very position is ineffable. It’s beyond description. It’s beyond word, it’s you it’s unfixable. It’s unfathomable, it’s unthinkable, and then BOOM, you break through to an experience. And that experience is openness. Yeah,

Rick Archer: I think there is an absolute level of life. And because there is we have an innate human desire to tap into it or to realize it. But failing to do that we often take relative things and try to make them absolute, as a sort of a surrogate, you know, for the genuine grounding in the absolute level of life. And that and then, of course, the minute we do that we become polarized because it’s only a relative thing, and it’s going to clash with every other relative thing. Mm hmm. There was interesting quote here from in your book from Daniel Pinchbeck. He say, I’ve had Daniel on your show. No, I haven’t. I should write you should get him. I will. Yeah, I’ll do that. Pinchbeck reframes our current global ecological crisis as an attempt by the collective unconscious to create the adventitious circumstance. stance for the emergence of higher states of consciousness. And then there’s another little bit here where you say our collective psyches are self sabotaging, as if to recreate a new trial by fire that would transform us into heroes emboldened by crisis. So I that was that was really interesting. I love that and maybe I’ll without actually asking you anything more I’ll just let you elaborate on it a bit.

Miles Neale: Well, you should have Daniel it’s his idea, but I loved it so much because it put a twist on where we find ourselves. If you’re anything like me, sometimes you get very paralyzed and gobsmacked about how we’re basically heading towards mass extinction. And that can be very humbling and paralyzing and terrifying. But from Dan’s point of view, having had a very hallucinatory or psychedelic experience on on plant medicines. He had, he had a certain vision or intuition that actually this is the collective psyche. This is what the collective psyche needs. In other words, there’s a convergence of crisis and opportunity at the same time, and we’re being pushed to the threshold in order to raise the bar of consciousness. And I think, Rick, you and I would both agree that that’s what we’re seeing on the planet right now. 10 years ago, 15, even 20 years ago, meditation and yoga were considered fringe now they’re front and center. In the 60s, we had a psychedelic revolution that that then was followed by an intensive regime of League of league, legalizing it. And now we’re seeing not only a resurgence of interest in psychedelics, but the mainstream Yale, Harvard, Johns Hopkins, Johns Hopkins, and what have you, they are all on board with big funding to explore the frontiers of consciousness through psychedelics had Michael Dolan on a couple of months. Yes, I listened to that one. And I really appreciated him and he’s stood mind. And but to come back to Pinchbeck, what we are seeing is we’re both all witnessing a growth of consciousness, an expansion of consciousness and a willingness to go beyond the material realm and reclaim spirit, which is the thesis of and then hope of my book. But it is happening within the context that things are heating up. And they’re getting so dire and desperate. And so they these two things. And so what he’s basically saying it’s as an unconscious, we’re destroying ourselves in order to wake us ourselves up. Now, that is a very compelling and unique argument. And I’m sure a lot of people will disagree with it. And I don’t have to defend it, because it’s not mine, but I liked it enough to use it in my book. Well, the caterpillar

Rick Archer: has to become motion or to become a butterfly, you know. And, as I’m sure you’re aware, that I believe the Chinese symbol for for crisis has the symbol of opportunity. And it I think it’s danger and opportunity, danger and opportunity, right? So, and if we kind of zoom out and and kind of regard the universe as intelligent and has having an evolutionary agenda, as it were, then, you know, it’s not just all sort of mindless chaos that that we’re going through that there’s got to be some kind of evolutionary opportunity or potential in it. And, you know, obviously, we’ve seen that very often people don’t change until they have to change. And so I guess the we’re, we’re sort of moving in into position of being forced to undergo change and for things which really ought to crumble to go ahead and do that.

Miles Neale: Yes. And I think Dan, Pinchbeck was a very good student of the Mayan calendar. And I think probably from your background, you know, about Shri uTec suar, the guru of Armanda. Armando saw Yogananda in his book, The Holy science and I think there’s very much concurrence in that little bed, very epic book on the where we find ourselves celestially on the great cycle, or the great ages, we are coming, we are certainly out of the dark ages, and we’re coming towards more light. And so I think that’s also very telling what happens when we come towards more light we have and we have exited, or beginning to exit, of course, is a long periods of evolutionary time. But we’re exiting a period of the utter materiality of things and opening to the like, for example, in my field, not only is plant medicine becoming incredibly important, but also energetics and energy, medicine and and sound a lot of people are doing sound therapy, and there’s a lot of fringe things that maybe five years ago would have been considered woowoo that are now coming on the radar. And I think that is because the evolution of consciousness is passing through these larger celestial cycles and we’re ending our period of being determinated by by a preoccupation and matter alone and then awakening to unforeseen or unseen energies. So I think that’s why shamanic practices and sound and energy are becoming well, they are now on the forefront of healing.

Rick Archer: Yeah, yeah, believe sure you have to share. It’s said that the calculation that call yuga suppose The last 432,000 years and we’re only 5000 years into it is he had a different way of calculating it. He said, we’re actually going to come out of it now. Then Maharshi said something similar Marcia Mahesh Yogi that that sort of natural law reaches its Nadir, before rising up again. But then when it does rise up, it rises up rather abruptly. So there could be like, sort of a huge resurgence of, of light or whatever you want to call it. That might happen a lot faster than we can imagine.

Miles Neale: And it’s interesting, you had a, you had a, you had a somebody on the show who was into Jyotish, I can’t remember his name on Prasanna brasen on, I don’t know if you asked him about this. But you know, these guys are very intuitive about the long cycles of astrology, astrology, and they may have something to tell us, which really can serve as a very powerful reinforcement about where we are in time and space and what, and so that we don’t get alarmed and paralyzed in the trees, but we can see the forest. Yeah. You know, because I think we will probably see a even further deterioration of the climate, but we shouldn’t despair. You know, that’s my main thing is we cannot despair. The world’s also awakening and people are doing really good things if we get focused on the three or four gurus last year that fell,

Rick Archer: and not Was it only three or four.

Miles Neale: But not, but not also see the tidal wave of people who are waking up and also not to minimize your own role in this so that you can be an agent for change, then I think, I think we’re all we have to balance that negativity bias.

Rick Archer: I think it’s really good point. Because one could be get one could get really scared and discouraged and depressed, if it just seems like we’re all going to hell in a handbasket. But there’s something good happening. And it’s just like, we were talking about the news, it’s not going to make the six o’clock news necessarily. It’s subtle. That’s why it’s not detectable by you know, gross events. But it’s bubbling up more and more. And, you know, it’s it’s profound and significant. And I’m very optimistic, really, although I agree with you that I think things are going to get a lot crazier before they get better.

Miles Neale: Yeah, I know that they have to, and this is the collapse. I mean, you know, you have to the shake snake has to shed its skin and there has to be there has to be a great Cataclysm and there will be fire and we have built a we have built a petroleum based economy. And that will that is inevitably going to collapse the air. I mean, there’s no there’s no two ways about it, there’s not enough resources to perpetuate it or sustain it. And so the world that we have built that we have come to see and to rely on will will fail us. And so I think you see very smart, intelligent people, especially young people coming together and thinking about what the alternatives and the solutions will be. And they’re creating a new world. And so they are co emergent. The new world is coming up like little saplings amidst the fire.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I laughed a while ago when you were talking about something or other because I thought of this video I saw the other day, which was a helpline for angry old white men who were angry at Greta Thornburg. And one guy was calling up and he was saying, How dare she, I thought she was saying, How dare she say that the end of the world is, there’s like the end of the world or some such thing. I don’t know. I can’t do justice to it. But it’s very funny.

Miles Neale: But she’s a very fierce archetype of the brave new world. I mean, she’s got a lot of ferocity. No one can argue with that. And she’s young, and she’s a woman. And so there’s, that’s a beautiful archetype of the rise of the feminine right there. Yeah, you have to at least appreciate that.

Rick Archer: One thing you wanted to talk about that I want to shift into right now, before we run out of time is the power of pilgrimage in the modern age. Oh, boy.

Miles Neale: Well, so I mean, you know, my, my attempt with the book and these courses is to, as I said, serve as a landbridge to help bring people into the sacred wisdom culture. And in my own hero’s journey I had was growing very, what would you say suffocated in my therapy office myself with I live in New York, I live was living in New York City, and I was practicing in New York City. And I was in a big building and in a small office doing doing therapeutic work, and I started feeling the walls close in on me. And in the last few years, I have started taking pilgrimage or take some of my students some 25 or 30 of them to, to India or and last year, we took them to Nepal. And what I found in two weeks of an immersion like that was that people were their hearts were ripped wide open, and their paradigm was completely split. And something very, very deep and powerful happened and if you just calculate it from a cost analysis, the amount of amount of cost and energy of light, let’s say three months of psychotherapy versus a two week immersion abroad, I couldn’t tell you like where I would put my money, you know, like I just, I just felt like I mean, myself in my own history. I was raised abroad. I was raised in Hong Kong and I was born in Singapore, my I come from a multicultural family. I have I was that it was India India under the Bodhi tree where the Buddha gave enlightenment at 20. I made five pilgrimages or six pilgrimages in the last 20 years. And as I emerged as my own teacher in my own right, then I started feeling the call as a very deep, mythical, almost a mythical call something very deep inside of me that my I see my role is, as a ferryboat man as transporting people in through time and space to ancient wisdom cultures, where I can showcase the ancient wisdom cultures and its lineage holders, to people who have in a way been ignored or, or lulled to sleep by modernity. So that’s, that’s where I’m coming from. And so I’ve built a number of different pilgrimages where we’ll go to Sri Lanka in December, I’ll take about 25 people there. And then in August next year, we go to Ladakh. And in each of these places, we’re encountering rituals, were doing very deep practice, we’re trying to do traditional practices in the way that they have have been done in an unbroken stream for hundreds, if not 1000s of years, so that people can shake loose, the habituation for foist upon them by modern modern modernity, and reawaken or revitalize something very deep in them to see that there are other ways of being and that there are other ways to have community, and that the rituals that we lost have meaning and purpose. And that actually the very pinnacle of it. Some of these ceremonies are designed to help activate our central responsibility and agency for the planet. These are called in the Tibetan tradition, the bodhisattva resolver, the bodhisattva vow ceremony in which you sue take responsibility that your life becomes purposeful. And this is very important, very important to me, because right now, in modern materialistic culture, we have no purpose other than to produce and consume, and then to die, and to gratify our urges. And that’s it. And that’s it. But every sacred wisdom culture, from India, to the Amazon, to Tibet, they all had lineages where they saw the human being as a vital force and contributor, an agent of change for society. And they put them through rites of passages, certain rituals, to help them access those very fundamental archetypes. And that’s what I see the movement of my therapeutic application moving into the sphere of helping bring people abroad so that they can have those rituals and ceremonies and meet the elders have wisdom traditions, and we can do our part in preserving those cultures so that they don’t, they don’t fall prey to demise on this culture when we need in this world when we need them. So, so desperately.

Rick Archer: Nice. And I would say that, you know, the advantage of doing it with somebody like you, as opposed to just going on your own is that there’s a real value to going as a group. And absolutely, not only is everything kind of figured out for you in terms of where to go. But there’s something about the group consciousness that makes it more potent.

Miles Neale: Yes. I mean, I think we’ve lost that. I mean, we are so siloed. I mean, we are so disconnected and fragmented. I mean, I think it’s an illusion that we’re more connected. I understand the argument that Technology connects us. I have students in Alaska and Bombay, that they can join me virtually in my courses. But on the other hand, come on, who are we kidding, like, being around people with their energies and their flesh and blood and living with them and having meals with them and going on a journey together? And and having group rituals together and creating a bond a resonance? I think there’s no, there’s no substitute? I never will be for that.

Rick Archer: And speaking of your online courses, you have a two year contemplative studies program. What’s what’s that about? And can people hop on to that any time? Or do they have to wait until it starts again, for a two year period?

Miles Neale: Well, there’s a number of different ways to study it. But what it is essentially is my 20 years combining Tibetan Buddhism with neuroscience and trauma research, and so I’ve taught eight modules, or will be teaching eight modules over the next two years we started several months ago, we are in module three. And we go through material we do practices together, we start with foundational practices following the lamrim, which we didn’t in this discussion really get to unpack other than other than to suggest that it’s a roadmap from the 10th century, to help people move through a curriculum or or ancient wisdom knowledge in a systematic way where they can digest it. And so I present material and lectures then we have guided meditations that you do at home and readings. And then we have a virtual space where you can discuss those topics. So you’re, you’re following the ancient pedagogy of listening and hearing a lecture, reflecting on it with your peers and then having a meditative experience and then moving on to the next section. And two years I found is really important, because on the market, you’ll notice that there are a lot of programs that are four weeks, five weeks, six weeks, but we all know what it takes according to my book, gradual weakening, it takes a long time to really mature it takes 3040 50 years so when I when I propose two years, people get really shocked and get terrified. But it’s just the beginning. It’s really just the beginning. If you really want to take this seriously and want to commit, and so it is a journey for people who have tested and dip their toe here and there read a good book on on retreat but want to do a two year committed program of an integrative a curriculum that’s integrative, not just traditional, but conventional wisdom to. And then each of these, there is a social service project. So we are, we are partnered with the Tibetan nuns project we’re gonna raise $20,000 next year for a very small Nunnery on Mars. No, I’m just kidding. It’s in, it’s in sun scar. It’s Hall. It’s a 700 year old Nunnery that has 30 nuns there, and we’re going to raise 20k for them so that they can feel that their priorities and their their everyday needs are taken care of indefinitely so that they can study and practice and be enormously inspiring to the rest of us. The other the other

Rick Archer: Rati to get iPhones, right.

Miles Neale: Is getting the other the other element is the pilgrimage. So like I said, this year, we’ll go to Sri Lanka next year, we’ll go to Ladakh. And so I’m trying to create an online program that provides multidisciplinary interdisciplinary kind of approach where you have different different features all bundled into one.

Rick Archer: So Can people still join this two year thing even a few a few years ago?

Miles Neale: Yeah, it’s all in the cloud. One thing about technology is great is I mean, I don’t need brick and mortar anymore. And you know, I even though we do have a center in New York City, everything is housed at high definition video in the cloud. And so you can access it anytime. And And if two years is too much, then we started after after, after we rolled out the program, we started modularizing. And just taking a piece so so for example, the trauma stuff that I was talking to you about that I think represents some of my best work, because I really feel like I was speaking from a heart and a place where I was really wounded and needed, needed my own healing amongst my own community. So it’s very heartfelt and very real. And we keep it really real that that program is one module in the program and is accessible just as a standalone. So if you don’t, can’t commit to the whole entire thing. You can just have the trauma workshop, or you can just have right now I’m doing the hero’s journey. So there’s there’s different modules there too.

Rick Archer: Okay, I’m sure there’s plenty of information about that on your website. And if people have questions about it, before committing to it, they can ask you. So is there anything you mentioned that you didn’t get enough chance to say enough about the alarm room? Is there anything that you can say about that, in conclusion that if you don’t say you’re not gonna be able to sleep tonight?

Miles Neale: Another? I mean, I think we it’s funny, do you want to make a full circle and wrap it up, we can wrap it up this way. Because at the outset, you we were using this metaphor of there’s no there is a mountain, then there’s no, there’s a mountain again, okay, and so when you go on the lamrim, you first take care of your own bullshit. In other words, you take care of your trauma, you take care of your identifications, you take care of all your baggage, you take care of your wounding, you take care of your false assumptions, you work on yourself. And then you you you cross the threshold, you cross a horizon, and then you start to see that the world is not what it appears. And there’s something beyond yourself. And there’s something beyond the material world, there’s something beyond and you go quantum and basically the world as you knew it dissolves. And these are not mutually exclusive. They’re systematic and comprehensive. So you have to take care of yourself in order to cross that thrush threshold. And then you, you, you, you go through into the event horizon, and you discover the totality or the oneness or the bliss. But but that’s not home either. And, and I’m sure after 51 years, Ricky will concur that the real home happens once you really come home to your wife, and you’re, you have a job and you have dogs and you have to earn a living. And you’re but you’re a yogi at heart. See this is the important thing is how do you bring all your spiritual knowledge into life in order to make a difference in the context of a planetary mass extinction on the verge of a mass extinction. The I don’t think it’s enough anymore for the High Lamas to be in in their Himalayan caves, I think we have to each become a high Lama and as much as possible in our own way. And then and then set our sights on, through through whatever discipline you’re working in whatever sector of society you’re working in. So if you’re a school teacher, or you’re an accountant, or you’re into politics, or you’re into technology, you have to bring your bodhisattva spirit and your understanding of non duality into the world, in order to shape shift it for the better, and for others. And so that’s what that’s the main point that I want to leave people on, is that it’s not enough to just sit quietly on your own, immersed in the bliss of oneness, but to come back as a drop or a wave more skilled and putting into practice all that you have learned, so that we can actually each make a contribution into rebuilding a better planet.

Rick Archer: Hmm, yeah, the way Lord Krishna put it to Arjuna in the Gita was “established in being perform action”.

Miles Neale: That’s it good. Great. Yes.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Okay, good. Well, thank you so much. I really enjoyed this conversation.

Miles Neale: Rick, I just want to thank you personally for all the work that you’ve done, and whatever hero’s journey took you on to letting go of your former life and being reborn as as a as a podcaster. And, and being so, so open to taking on people who don’t maybe have a big following or a big name. I think that that kudos to you for that. Thank you for the opportunity to share with your community and keep doing what you’re doing. It’s a real huge contribution for the planet. Thank you so much.

Rick Archer: Oh, thank you. Yep, we hope to keep doing it. And of course, it’s not just me, I ran as makes a huge contribution, and that some of the volunteers you’ve met in preparation for this. It’s a kind of a team effort.

Miles Neale: Well, thanks, the team, thank you to everyone. And thanks also to your listeners for, you know, putting up with us for so long. I mean, you you it’s nice that I’ve done podcasts for an hour, but I like your style going for the two, two and a half hour podcast. Good for you.

Rick Archer: I like it. I mean, I feel like you can cover everything in an hour. And you know, and a lot of people who express that they really like it. And if they don’t, they can just watch part of it, you know. So let me make a couple of concluding remarks really quick. My guest has been miles Neil. As usual, I’ll be creating a page for this interview. And it will can include links to his website and his book, and so on. And then if you want to find out more, you can get in touch with him and you know, find out what you want. But while you’re at it, if you come to BatGap, calm, explore the different menus, because you’ll find some interesting things like miles mentioned, he listens to this has been listening to this a bit while jogging. So there’s an audio podcast and you can sign up to be notified by email of new episodes and different things like that. So just if you come to the site, explore the menus, there aren’t too many things, but you’ll find some things that you might find useful. So

Miles Neale: and there’s thing for everyone really, I mean, I found Jyotish. I found Sheldrake found Bob. So you have a real wide, wide range of there’s something for everyone. Really, you have a huge archive there. Congratulations for

Rick Archer: that. Yeah, we even covered the topics of the topic of extraterrestrials a few weeks ago. That was interesting, because I feel that somehow that plugs into the whole picture. Something’s going on. already. Well, thanks, miles.

Miles Neale: Okay, talk soon. Take care everybody.

Rick Archer: Take care. Bye Bye, everybody.