Rick Archer: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer, and my guest today is Linda Claire. Linda is down in Melbourne, Australia. And she seems to be quite popular down there has a interesting following of I’ve read her book, what do you want and consists largely of interactions with her students, many of which are quite lively and fascinating. So welcome, Linda. Thanks for doing this. Hi, Rick. Hi, ah, one thing that I first noticed about you, Linda, when I started reading your book, and we’ll get into your whole bio, and how you came to be where you are now and all but one thing I first noticed was that you’re not shy about using the E word. Which some people are. And I guess they are, even in the Buddhist tradition, if you asked the Dalai Lama, if he’s enlightened, he’ll just sort of give some deferential answer, he won’t answer. And yet you were raised in a Buddhist tradition, or pursued one. And so what do you mean by Enlightenment? And why is it that you’re comfortable using the word in terms of your own experience?
Linda Clair: Well, I’ll answer the second part of the question. First, I feel comfortable using it because I know when I was practicing, that’s what I was looking for a teacher who was enlightened. So my teacher who was trained in the Buddhist tradition, my first teacher, use the word Enlightenment. And it really, that’s what appealed to me. And that’s basically what I wanted. And, and so when I realized I didn’t want to be shy about using the word. And I suppose it’s one reason I couldn’t teach in the Buddhist tradition, because, you know, there’s all those rules about not using the E word. The Enlightenment work, I don’t use it as much now as I used to. But yeah, I used to use it quite a bit. And it’s what it’s really what most people are interested in. They’re interested in Enlightenment. So I didn’t see any reason for skirting around it for avoiding the word.
Rick Archer: That’s a good answer. And I feel the same way. I wouldn’t use the word myself, because I don’t feel like I’m enlightened. But if you there used to be an airline ad in the United States that said, if you’ve got it, flaunt it?
Linda Clair: Well, it’s not really a matter of flaunting it. But it like I said, it’s what people are interested in. And I know, it’s what I was interested in, and it gets people going. So I get a lot of negative reactions and people saying, Oh, you must be arrogant, and how can you be enlightened? And then other people who go well, I’ll check her out and just see if what she says is true. So it was difficult to say, at first, it was a bit difficult to actually say, Yes, I am enlightened. But it’s true. So that’s what I say.
Rick Archer: You’re one of my motivations for starting this show about five years ago was that I live in a town where approximately 3000 people meditate out of 10,000 population. And a lot of people meditate for many decades, and people were having profound awakenings, shifts, whatever you want to call them. And even without calling them Enlightenment, people were getting flack from friends when they would announce that they had awakened, you know, and friends would say, you know, you don’t look any different. And, you know, how could you be awakened? You know, you’re just normal schmo that I’ve always known. And so I thought, we’re not going to start an interview show, initially, I conceived of it as a local radio show, where I talk to some of these people and kind of get it out there that this is actually happening. And maybe it will make it more normal in people’s mentality, and, you know, remove the stigma of proclaiming that you have actually achieved what you’ve been trying to achieve for the last 40 years, you know, and I think it’s the show is to a great extent having that effect now, except they kind of ended up going well beyond my local town. Yeah.
Linda Clair: Well, I think most people’s deepest fear, is it, they’re going to become enlightened. Even though they say this is what I really want when it comes down to it. They like to have that separation between a teacher and themselves be because it’s something that they can aspire to, but never rich. So you can look at people up on a stage with 1000s of people in front of them, and feel really affected by it. And it can be great. But there’s, there’s this deep separation, and that’s how most people want to keep it. They want to keep that separateness, they don’t really want to be free, completely free, deep down, they do. But the fear is so deep, that it’s very difficult to get over that. So in the way I teach, I wanted to just, I will I like teaching with smaller groups most of the time and once one quite a bit, because it’s more confronting for people. And I just stress normally and
Rick Archer: still call yourself,
Linda Clair: Linda. Yeah, my mother doesn’t see any difference. Yeah, so it makes it more accessible for people. Yeah. People have got all these ideas about how you should be when you’re enlightened, lightened, and they impose it on everyone. Anyone who says they’re enlightened says they can’t be enlightened because they still watch movies, or they still do this or do that. Or they said this, or they said that, and it’s just not true. And I was the same. I was I remember seeing very long, I don’t know if you’ve heard of him. I’ve heard of him. I haven’t. Yeah. Is he still alive? No, no, he died quite a while ago. But I remember seeing him in the local supermarket. And I was watching him one day, and I thought, huh, he doesn’t look very happy. Yeah, I knew he was enlightened. But I still had all these judgments about how he should be how he should behave.
Rick Archer: Yeah, you know, Adyashanti, probably, right. I helped organize Adi Shanti, to come to my town, and we got to have lunch with him. And you know, he had a hamburger. And we spent most of the time talking about how he likes to decorate a really large Christmas tree at Christmas time. And you know, all this normal stuff. Anybody over here in the conversation might have wondered, you know, what’s so special about this guy, but boy, just sitting next to him during lunch, I was high as a kite. I mean, the energy he radiated, you know, was was really profound. And of course, if you’ve ever heard him speak, he’s he’s extremely clear. So, you know, I guess that leads us to the question of what is Enlightenment? After all, I mean, if a lot of people have all sorts of associations in their mind as to what it’s supposed to look like, you know, and if half of those are erroneous, what is it we’re actually talking about, and that we’re all making such a big fuss about and our little, you know, subculture of people who are interested in Enlightenment?
Linda Clair: Well, in a few words, it’s the absence of fear. So in Enlightenment, all that goes, is the fear. And you actually see that the fear was never there to start with. But but that’s what goes and you see how fear motivates the behavior, even the smallest bodily actions of just about all people. And that’s what I saw in myself. I had no idea how full of fear I was. And when I realized, and it’s not that the fear goes all at once it takes us for it to really subside after that point that you call Enlightenment. But I’d say the point of Enlightenment is the point where the majority of the fear, maybe 99%, of the fear dissolves, just goes.
Rick Archer: The Upanishad say all fear is born and duality. Yeah. Well, that raises several questions. One is one you just alluded to, which is I think, many people hearing that would say, Well, what’s that all about? Because I don’t feel like I have a lot of fear. I go through my life sort of normally. So maybe I’m enlightened or, you know, maybe that’s not a valid criterion, fear.
Linda Clair: You’re not aware of it. But when you start sitting by yourself without any distractions, the fear starts to come up. So most people spend most of their lives avoiding fear, and I was the same distractions, anything not to feel this fear. And I, I would have said the same I would have said, No, I’m not very scared. I haven’t got much fear. But I saw later on that I was just full of it. It was it dictated every little action, every small bodily movement are so self conscious that everything was dictated by fear, but I wasn’t aware of it, of course, and the only time I the first time I really became aware of it was when I met my first teacher. Not the first time I met him, but after a few meetings, and I do It was this sudden connection with us, it was like there was this clique. And there was something in him that I saw. And I didn’t know what it was. And now I can look at it and say who there was just no fear there.
Rick Archer: They say that solitary confinement is one of the most cruel punishments, you know, and in some, in some cases, it’s considered to be, you know, torture. Yeah. Because you just don’t have any stimulation and everything starts to bubble up, even if you’re not a meditator of any kind. Yeah, which creates more people in solitary confinement aren’t. Although I imagine you could be confined to that now, right? I mean, could you if you were, for some reason put in solitary confinement for a month? Do you think it’d be a pretty happy camper anyway?
Linda Clair: I don’t know if I’d be happy. But I’d be the same as I am now. Right. So it wouldn’t, I’d say it wouldn’t change things. But it’s not that I mean, Enlightenment doesn’t mean that you happy all the time, that that was the, the idea I had of it, you know, you’d be in this ecstatic state for the rest of your life. And it’s not that it’s just that you’re not unhappy. And the outside circumstances don’t deeply affect you. Of course, on the surface, you know, I’m still affected by things, but deep down, not at all, nothing moves you anymore.
Rick Archer: Let’s talk about the happiness, unhappiness thing more in a minute, but more on fear first, when when you’re when you begin confronting the reservoir of fear that, you know, we all carry around with us. Was it a matter? I think he said it took years to, to wash it all out. So were you in? As it came out? As it was resolved? Were there did you have to experience wave after wave of fear, and resolve each wave, so to speak, and then go on to the next? Or how did it what was the subjective experience of working through all that?
Linda Clair: Well, for me, it was seeing the fear in my daily life. But the main thing that really cleared it out was sitting with my teacher being around him and then doing hours and hours of sitting both with him and by myself, and sitting with your fear. And sitting on long retreats are, they weren’t all that long, some of them, some of them were, but sitting with pain in your body, feeling incredible, sometimes pain in my body,
Rick Archer: because it was sitting posture, or some kind of Inner Inner angst or something that was coming to the surface.
Linda Clair: It I was gonna say it was nothing to do with my seating posture, but it was in a way, because if you keep your body still your back straight and unsupported, it’s really going to intensify the whole thing and free up the energy. So sitting there for hours on end, just watching what comes up and feeling really uncomfortable sensations in your body is, is really a really powerful thing to do and not distracting yourself. So it’s like I was facing the fear that I’d been trying to avoid for most of my life, or almost all my life. And I can’t say another thing is I can’t say it’s all gone now. So there might be well, there probably is a bit of a tiny bit of residual.
Rick Archer: What Yeah, one point I read in your book was that you’ve you said that as long as you’re in a body, as long as you’re alive, there’s got to be some residual ego in order to function at least you thought there was. And traditionally in the Indian tradition, they call that lesh avidya, some faint remains of ignorance that’s necessary in order to function. And so maybe maybe a little residual fear is part of that. You think?
Linda Clair: I think maybe I wrote that book. Well, those conversations were quite a while ago, probably about seven years ago, I’m writing another book, another book now, but in November, I’m going to India to sit with someone there for about three weeks, and I feel that’s really going to do something to but I know in the last 10 years, a lot has happened a lot more has happened to me.
Rick Archer: That’s an interesting question to be I mean, that brings up an interesting question which because to me, one of the reasons I a little leery of E word is it has a kind of a superlative static connotation you know, it’s like you’ve reached some kind of plateau beyond which no further progress or experience is possible. And I don’t think I’ve met a human being yet and I’ve met some pretty interesting ones whom I feel could not actually get more clear more, you know, more deep, somehow more refined in their in their understanding that perception, their emotions, whatever, whatever it is that makes us tick. There always seems to be a horizon. So what do you say to that?
Linda Clair: Well, when at first I think that’s true. There. There’s always more. And it’s and it’s always challenging. I can’t say that. Definitely. Because I don’t know. But and that’s the thing, I don’t know. But when it first happened to me, when I first realized, I felt, ah, how can it be any better than this? How can it be any more amazing than this, this is it. And there is still a bit of a part of you, that wants that to be it. So there must be still a little bit of ego there saying, This is it, you can’t go any deeper than this. This is, this is it. And then I started teaching probably a year after that. And I think when you’re teaching, even though I felt it wasn’t really affecting me, I think a little bit can creep in where you feel, okay, I’m responsible for these people, I’m advising them doing all this stuff, you know, telling them these things. And it can affect your ego, slightly, so you can become start to become a bit identified with being a teacher. And as it goes on, if you really open to more things happening, you start to see, there’s more, there’s a lot more. But I’d say in the first couple of years, there is a little bit of resistance. And part of it’s probably shock from the whole thing, where you’re, you’re just still settling in to this state, and relearning how to operate in the world and what’s going on. And then you’re ready for more things to happen. But you have to be open to it. And when if you say okay, this is it, there’s no more. That’s putting a limit on it. You know, this, this is a state of timelessness of eternity. So if you say, Okay, this is the end, it’s negating that whole thing. So, yeah, there’s more and more. And so much has happened in the last 10 years, and I feel more can happen. And I feel ready for something even deeper to happen. And that’s why I feel strongly about a friend has invited me to go and sit with a teacher there was that his name is Baba, but I forget his name. I can, I can look it up and send it to you if you like. But I think part of it’s just going to India, I haven’t actually been to India before. And I’ve been to Japan and and was in a monastery for a while, but I haven’t been to India. And I feel like going somewhere and just not being a teacher and a few people a few students wanted to come to and I was not so keen on it. Because I don’t want to be around people as a teacher. I’d rather just go more anonymously, and just see what part of India isn’t new Mumbai, a few a few hours from Mumbai. Okay. He’s not he’s not well known. He’s not a well known teacher, Asha was his master. And yeah. So
Rick Archer: Well you have an adventure anyway,
Linda Clair: yeah.
Rick Archer: See what happened?
Linda Clair: It’ll be it’ll be interesting to see what happens.
Rick Archer: Yeah. So you mentioned 10 years. So is it about has it been about 10 years since your Enlightenment?
Linda Clair: It’s been 10 years. Yeah, 10 years, around 10 years,
Rick Archer: and you defined Enlightenment. Probably there are other measures by which you can define it, but you find it in terms of the elimination of fear, or at least almost all fear. And but you said a lot has happened in the last 10 years. So I guess this is a two part question. What other criteria would you use to measure or define Enlightenment? And what what has been happening in the last 10 years since that initial Well, since that, you know, that transition? How have things been unfolding?
Linda Clair: Well, when it first happened, it was like everything stopped. So when I look at it now, it’s it’s such a shock when it happens that it’s, it takes time to really digest it and to realize fully what’s happened. And I feel it took me about seven years to get really established in it and used to it just used to it because there was still a few pre preconceived ideas, tiny ones that were there about how I should be and and how it should be and it took a while for them to really dissolve
Rick Archer: During this adjustment period, were you intermittently losing it occasionally, or was it more a matter of you weren’t losing it, but it was a matter of sort of learning to function. Normally, in that state,
Linda Clair: you don’t lose it. And that’s the amazing thing about it. And that’s what I realized, it’s never gonna go away, that was the deep realization that this is here, I’m here. And I’m never going to go back to how I was the, the mind might come in a little bit, but it’s never going to have that control over me, that that it had before. So as there was this realization of that, and they weren’t bright lights, or, wow, this is amazing, it was a very gentle, dissolving, dissolving of me. And it was quite, it was just amazing. So
Rick Archer: now continue,
Linda Clair: for the next seven years, what happened, I think, when it first happens, you get a bit obsessed with this absolute state. So it’s like, oh, this is amazing. And you can tend to not want to relate with the world, which is understandable. Because if you spent 40 or 50 years relating to things in the world, having this relationship with the world, it’s great having a break from it. So you can go a bit too far the other way and get a bit of maybe even slightly attached or just immersed in this absolute state. So what was happening was learning to be in this absolute state while combining the world, the relative and realizing that the relative is part of the Absolute, it’s not this separate thing which you can, you can sort of feel at first that okay, there’s there’s still this app’s there’s this absolute, and there is this relative, but I don’t want to know about the relative, I just want to be in this absolute. So you have to gradually accept that the relative is part of the absolute and the absolute, to a degree is relative has some sort of relativity about it. It’s not absolute, nothing is absolute.
Rick Archer: Some saints and teachers and so on, have described state, their state of being as one in which pure consciousness is never lost. 24/7 So there’ll be fast asleep, others might perceive them as you know, snoring like a sailor. But inside they’re awake to in that pure consciousness state. I have a whole collection of quotes from Ramana, Maharshi and totl Ababa, a number of others describing this, has that been your experience?
Linda Clair: Yeah, yeah. And that’s what’s so intense. And especially at first, it’s very tiring, because it’s almost like you’re trapped in this freedom. You’re trapped in this awake, this pure consciousness, pure intelligence. And it’s like that all the time, and you can’t get away from it. And it’s, and it’s why you? Well, I know, for me, I like doing just really mundane, ordinary things like going to a movie or something like that, just to sort of take the edge off it. Yeah, yeah. Just just to take the edge off it because it’s really, really intense being and eventually it just becomes much more natural. But the first few years in particular, it was very tiring and intense at times,
Rick Archer: yeah. Have you ever had surgery or anything during these 10 years and you know, what’s your, what’s your experience under anesthesia different, you know, did you totally lose it under anesthesia? Or was it retained even then, or maybe you haven’t had surgery?
Linda Clair: I had, I had a couple of years ago, and I had a general anaesthetic and I was quite relieved. I was asleep the whole time. The whole time. The only interesting thing was afterwards, they kept trying to give me painkillers and I didn’t need them. And they didn’t. It was just a minor surgery, but they insisted on me taking these painkillers with with me, because I’d need them and I didn’t take any painkillers after the surgery. And that was interesting that the anesthetic I just went out, like anyone.
Rick Archer: Yeah, I asked that question because a friend of mine whom I’ve interviewed, has described the same experience for a beautifully of just as pure awareness all the time. And he, but he had surgery. And he was kind of surprised because he was, you know, like a light during the surgery and he didn’t, hadn’t anticipated that that would happen. Anyway, it’s an interesting phenomenon. It’s kind of I find it interesting also, because I think it, you know, you’re saying in the beginning that, you know, a lot of people find it hard to believe that anyone’s enlightened or that so and so’s enlightened and so on. But there’s the flip side of that, which is that sometimes people proclaim themselves to be enlightened when perhaps they aren’t. And you know, get up on a pedestal and start making big fuss about themselves. And it’s interesting, if we have some kind of benchmarks, you know, some kind of litmus test for what Enlightenment actually is. And perhaps this this inner awareness during sleep is one of them, it would be a hard thing to you could certainly lie to others about it, but it’s You can’t lie to yourself would be a hard thing to fake.
Linda Clair: Yeah. How do you how do you prove it?
Rick Archer: Yeah, I don’t know if you can prove it, unless there’s a unique brainwave signature to it, you know, which can be measured. And I think there may be, I mean, there are people researching that sort of thing. And, you know, you could see that in, in enlightened people. There’s even during sleep, there’s a distinct brainwave pattern that you’re not seeing in other people. So that’d be something. You could
Linda Clair: Yeah,
Rick Archer: measure it?
Linda Clair: Yeah. Yeah. Maybe
Rick Archer: your brainwaves measured? Maybe? Yeah.
Linda Clair: My teacher did that. Once he had a, he had some sort of scan and they said, oh, you should be dead. Yeah, it was interesting. How do you gauge someone who’s enlightened I don’t know. For me, it was just there was something about this was my first teacher, I couldn’t put my finger on, I just, I couldn’t work out who he was. So there was something about him, and it was in it. And it really brought up this deep desire in me to have what he had what I saw that he had. And, of course, eventually, I saw it was something he didn’t have, that I had. And
Rick Archer: kind of reminds me of When Harry Met Sally, and that, that scene in the restaurant, you ever see that movie? She’s having?
Linda Clair: It was like, it was like that, it was like, oh, I want that. I want that.
Rick Archer: Now, you said something interesting a minute ago, which was about, you know, awakening to the absolute, and the relative was sort of like, you know, I’ve had enough of that go away. And, and then over the years, you’ve been integrating that more and more. So can you describe in some greater detail, your relationship to the relative your orientation to the relative as you’ve gone along? How has that been changing?
Linda Clair: I think at first, there was a bit of a resistance to the relative, which pointed to a bit of fear in me, there was also a lack of interest as well, you know, I just wasn’t at all. At times, I just wasn’t interested in it at all. I wasn’t interested in and I had, I had feelings of wouldn’t mind just going and living in a cabin in the bush somewhere and not doing this. But I could see, because when I started teaching, I started to realize what teaching involved. And it’s quite a difficult thing to do. It looks great from the outside, but when you’re in it, it’s quite a bit of responsibility. And it’s, it’s hard, it’s quite difficult. And you’ve got people saying no, you’re not enlightened, you’re Yeah. And anyway, yeah, I had feelings of just retiring going and sitting in the bush, but I could see that was sort of a bit of a selfish thing to at that time. So I resisted that. And then I just gradually got more into accepting, uniting the absolute and the relative.
Rick Archer: And how about not only your motivation and that kind of thing, but how about your actual perception of the relative does it seem to be getting the the senses seem to be changing in some way and the way you actually perceive your eyes, ears, whatever. Relative objects.
Linda Clair: The senses, the senses change radically. Like before, when I was looking at something, I wasn’t just looking, there was a whole lot of other judgment and personal personal judgment associated with it. So I couldn’t even look at a blank wall with that, without setting off a train of thought this was pre Before Enlightenment. I couldn’t look at a person with all this past stuff coming up all these past associations and what did he do to me? What did she do to me? What do I feel about this person. And the vision, the vision changes completely, because you just look without all this mind stuff going on in between, like, before, when I was talking with someone, I’d be looking at them. But it would be, there’d be all this stuff’s happening very quickly, while I was looking at them and and talking with them now. And during that transition period of accepting the relative, there was a little bit of grief sometimes, because I would look at something that previously I saw as beautiful like, in nature, beautiful trees and the ocean, and nothing would happen, there wouldn’t be this, ah, this is amazing. But then at the same time, I’d be somewhere where I would have previously thought was ugly and awful. And that wouldn’t happen, either. So there’d be nothing there. And part of me missed that for a while. But then eventually, it, it all evened out. And it’s the same when with my vision was my actual physical vision, because there’s not all this stuff going on. There’s a much wider view with the eyes. So I can see to my side much more than I could before. It’s like an overall thing. And I can’t just focus on one thing. It’s really interesting, you know, so I can’t, I can look at you. But I’m also seeing everything around. And so yeah,
Rick Archer: you can focus on the task at hand, if you’re cutting vegetables with a sharp knife, you’re able to focus on that, right, but you’re just saying that there’s a kind of a broad vision at the same time.
Linda Clair: Well, I can’t focus on anything, not focus, yeah, exclusively. So I can’t, I can’t exclude anything anymore. So if I’m chopping vegetables, of course, I’ve got to chop vegetables. And I cut my finger the other day, because I wasn’t paying enough attention. But I’m also aware of everything that’s happening around me too. And it’s the same with hearing, if, if I’m talking with someone, and there’s someone within hearing distance talking to someone else, I can’t just listen to the person I’m talking to, I am listening to all of the conversations at once. So it’s it can be quite just distracting, a bit disturbing being in a room with a whole lot of people talking because I can’t just listen, Sam talking to you, and there’s someone else over there, I can’t put my full, you know, most of my attention on that. It’s like, everything becomes more homogenous. Rather than focusing and excluding anything else, you can’t, I can’t exclude anything anymore. So if I’m chopping vegetables, of course, I’ll do that. But I’ll be aware of everything I learned actually, a really good training for that was when I was in the monastery in Japan, that’s, that’s how they eat. So if you’re sitting at a table and eating, you have to be aware of everyone else at the table, because everyone goes at a certain speed and people are passing food around. So you have to have this open awareness of what’s happening, you can’t just get lost in eating your food.
Rick Archer: That’s interesting. Reminds me of a couple of things. One is that I have heard it described that you know, it’s not that your comprehension of actual relative phenomenon becomes more inclusive, you can focus sharply to the exclusion and relative phenomenon and yet but there’s a but kind of awareness itself which is non you know, without content that absolute field of awareness becomes broad and comprehensive Well, while the senses are focusing sharply but on the other hand, I’ve heard completely different the opposite of that and have had experiences of it actually where well for instance a an interesting example is Amma the hugging saint, you know, who is I’ve gone to see many times and she usually has this whirlwind of activity around her and she’s hugging people, and she’s talking to people and she’s doing this and she’s doing that. And I remember one time I was sitting 30 feet away in a chair talking to a friend and I brought something up to the friend that would have been quite a shock to him perhaps would have been quite controversial. And you know, all sudden in the midst of all this stuff she was doing, I’m gonna just shot me a look, you know, like, what are you doing? Shut up. And, and I thought, wow, you know, did she just tune in on that one particular thing or is she actually aware of, you know, all the details in such a wide periphery such a, you know, wide radius of her environment? And she could have said that something to somebody else at the same, you know, as likely as saying it to me.
Linda Clair: I’d say she would have been aware of the whole thing, and maybe even heard you talking. And
Rick Archer: even though it was noisy, and there’s music going on and all that, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So that’s, that’s kind of interesting, it is interesting to kind of flesh out the details of what Enlightenment might be like, like this. Now, I don’t know if it’d be like this for everybody, or if it’s just your experience, but I’m kind of fascinated with, you know, in the Eastern traditions, they have much more developed roadmaps than we do in the west of what Enlightenment is, is like, and all the various stages, and, you know, subtleties of it. And we’re just kind of learning that in the West, I think, more and more as we, as more more people begin to experience it. Any comments on that? It’s not really a question, just a comment.
Linda Clair: I was reading through the question. Yeah, that’s true. That’s one thing that attracted me to Zen. And to my first teacher, there were definite, like a lot of people talk about Enlightenment. And it’s great, you know, I love hearing about it. And now I just love talking about it, I could talk about it for the rest of my life. But what I really wanted was a way to become enlightened. And in the East, in the Zen tradition, Buddhist tradition, Vipassana tradition, there are definite stages and steps. And there’s something there’s a practice. And I think, to really, I feel to really become free of the mind, you need to have some sort of structure. So it’s, this is what I feel it’s no, it’s just sitting there for hours on end, just staring into space, there needs to be some sort of structure to really, because you need to be firm with the mind, it’s so deeply embedded in almost everyone that you need to use this firm structure and discipline, not rigidity, but discipline to really become free of it, to really get into it. So the East has got this structure. And in Japan, especially, it might seem quite severe. And being at a monastery is severe, but it’s really necessary. And it works. It really does work.
Rick Archer: Yeah, I know, you’re from reading your book, you’re big on meditation. And, you know, there’s even a q&a in your book where somebody asks you to comment on these teachers who say that it’s not necessary to meditate or don’t bother with it or what not. And you might as well address that point.
Linda Clair: Well, yeah, I suppose in those days, I was interested in talking about that more, because I don’t know why. Now, I’m not so interested in other teachers, but anyone who says, it’s not necessary to do some meditation. I don’t, of course, I don’t agree with it. Some. It’s not just meditation, I feel like it’s a combination of meditation, and the relationship with the trust with your teacher. So I do trust in your teacher. And yeah, so other teachers? Yeah, I’m not. I’m not so concerned about what they feel. I don’t agree. I don’t agree with them, of course, if they say things like that, but
Rick Archer: ironically, some of the teachers who say that are people who have been doing some kind of meditation for 30 years, and then they wake up, you know, and then they feel like, Oh, that wasn’t necessary. But I can well,
Linda Clair: I can, I can never understand that. Why is someone going to, you know, if you truly hear if you really are here, enlightened, dismiss everything that you’ve done, because what I saw was that everything I did contributed to, to this state to where I am now, which is just simply here. So I’ve got a deep respect for the practice that I was into before that. And that was shown to me, I’ve got a deep respect for Zen for any sort of Buddhism, for any sort of practice. So I suppose I was in Byron Bay for a while and you know, I’d say meditate. Byron Bay is like, I don’t know what it’s like. It’s like the spiritual center of Australia. And there are a whole lot of people walking around saying, I’m enlightened, I’m enlightened. But you’d say meditate, they just about laugh in your face, like, don’t need to do that. That’s ridiculous. It’s, but it’s meditation. True. Meditation is very deeply body based. So it’s based on the body. A lot of people think you’re using your mind to get rid of your mind. It’s not that at all. It’s very strongly body based.
Rick Archer: One thing I’ve noticed is that there are a lot of People who, like you said in Byron Bay, who, perhaps who read a lot of spiritual books or listened to spiritual teachers or whatever, and they they get an in an intellectual intuitive sense of what Enlightenment is. And then they mistake that understanding for actual realization. And they think that that’s all it is, is this sort of understanding, they’ve kind of hidden it that ties themselves a little bit with, by immersing themselves in and understanding, and they don’t realize the distinction between that and actual living experience. So that’s why, perhaps have you noticed that syndrome?
Linda Clair: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it’s one of the reasons I didn’t want to live environment anymore. So, yeah, it’s really I don’t know what it’s like up there now. But then it was like that, there were lots of people walking around talking about it. And that if you want to see where you are, just sit in a room by yourself for a few hours and see how you feel?
Rick Archer: Yeah. Which I think is one of the reasons why some people carry on that way, is that they don’t want to have to sit for a few hours every day for many, many years. It’s like, it’s like too much work, you know, I’d rather just say I’m there and have done with it
Linda Clair: yet. And that’s the temptation when you have what are described as an awakening. And that can happen quite quickly if you with a teacher or no, after a retreat, but being around someone who’s who’s awakened, who’s realized, that can happen quite quickly. The temptation is to just say, Okay, that’s it, I don’t want to do any more. But if you prepare to say, okay, that’s just the beginning, I’ve got a lot more to do, that’s when things really start happening.
Rick Archer: You mentioned the physiology earlier. And there’s a whole body of wisdom with regard to the physiology of Enlightenment. And I guess it’s in terms of tantra and tantric Shaivism, and all that, where they have a pretty detailed understanding of how the physiology needs to be cultured along with the subjective experience in order to support that subjective experience and how kind of premature awakening, without sufficient physiological foundation for it can be quite even harmful or dangerous. What has been your experience with regard to, you know, the physiological changes that you’ve noticed in yourself, as your subjective experience has evolved?
Linda Clair: I, I feel the practice leading up to realization was essential. And that’s why one of the reasons I’m so much into meditation because it’s preparing the body for the shock of realization. So I agree totally with that. It’s, you know, people say, oh, yeah, I woke up one day, I’m enlightened. You have to prepare for years and years before your body can actually sustain and cope with that shock. And maybe there are a fair few people in mental institutions who have had that shock before being without being prepared for it, because it is a huge shock. And for me, I felt it happened in the monastery. And it was such a huge shock. I didn’t even realize what what had happened till about nine months later, it took that time to really for the body to to assimilate, to get used to a
Rick Archer: new gestation period.
Linda Clair: Yeah, just nine months. That’s funny, isn’t it? looked at that? Yeah. So So yeah, it takes it’s a huge shock. So you need to prepare your body if you’re really going to be grounded in it, and be able to, to contain it. And that’s what meditation is containing this energy.
Rick Archer: Yeah. Yeah, Christ spoke of pouring new wine into old wineskins. You know, and there’s a whole Patanjali is yoga Ashtanga Yoga, eight limbs of yoga has to do with only one of the limbs is Samadhi or, you know, Transcendence the others have all have to do with pranayama the breath and Asana the body and all sorts of moral precepts and, and so on to kind of get you to a point where, you know, you’re you’re fit receptacle or vehicle yet for that, that profound awakening, which, you know, as you say, could be a shock. Yeah, yeah.
Linda Clair: Yeah. So so you don’t have to be physically, you know, fit and running and all that stuff. It’s more you know, To be very grounded in your body and prepare your body in that way. And, and I feel when you’re doing this practice, it’s extreme enough without having any sort of rules on moral rules or whatever in, in your daily life. So So I, you know, it’s, it’s a balance, you need to be quite balanced about it. I say that but I was totally obsessed by it. It stood up.
Rick Archer: Well, you know, like comment a bit about the mental hospitals, I think there probably are many people in mental hospitals who had some sort of spiritual awakening, which was, in fact, I’ve talked to some such people who were completely misunderstood by medical professionals and, you know, were medicated or want, they wanted to medicate them and, and then there are people like Eckhart Tolle or Byron Katie, who had sudden awakenings that they hadn’t really anticipated or prepared for, who indeed took years to integrate. I mean, I could totally just sat on a park bench feeding the pigeons for a couple years after his awakening couldn’t do much else. And it took many years to be able to sort of function.
Linda Clair: Yeah. And he coped with it eventually. Yeah. But if you do prepare yourself before it, it makes it much, much more tolerable afterwards, you know, you cope with it. Much better.
Rick Archer: Yeah. So not to belabor the point. But I think we’re making an important point here, which is that Enlightenment is not only a subjective experience, it’s, it’s a physiological state, there’s a physiological transformation that’s associated with it. And, and, you know, if scientists were to study it, and there are scientists studying it, they would probably find, and have found actually, that someone living in an enlightened state, their physiology functions quite differently in many respects, from the ordinary, average physiology.
Linda Clair: Yeah, yeah. I feel that’s true. Yeah, it’s really interesting. Yeah, the whole quality of your body changes that before my body was quite tense. And, you know, there was a lot of tension in it. And I’m not saying there’s no tension in it now. But it suddenly softens. It’s like, everything just goes, Ah, the weight of the world is taken off your shoulders, and that deeply affects your body, and every cell comes alive. So it’s not that you never get sick. But I know for me, I’ve become much more aware of what my body needs. And sometimes, I’ll just eat stuff that was probably not good for me. But it’s nice to do every now and again, but but the things like alcohol, you know, it just doesn’t seem to affect me much anymore. So I don’t bother having it because it does affect me the next day. But when I’m actually if I if I have a drink, it doesn’t really do much at all. So there’s not no point in having it.
Rick Archer: Yeah, and you probably find that, you know, if you had several drinks, the state it put you in which some people consider be pleasurable or desirable, is far inferior to the state. You’re in all the time anyway. So why bother? Yeah,
Linda Clair: yeah, you get very used to feeling incredibly clear. I can see at the beginning, the first few years, there is a temptation to do things a little bit like that, just to have a break from the state. And that might sound funny, you know, because you think, Oh, this is the ultimate state. But it’s so intense that you do sometimes feel like having a break. Just doing something really. Just to make you fall asleep again, yeah.
Rick Archer: Just cookies, I can understand why you would say it’s intense. Because there’s a lot of energy, right? And I’ve heard you Yeah, in your book, you use the word energy a lot. I suppose. I mean, we’re talking about a physiological thing here, right? Where there’s a lot of energy coursing through your body. And there’s no no let up and you would you would kind of like a break from that. address that part of it before I asked the second part.
Linda Clair: Well, I wouldn’t say it’s totally, totally physiological. So it’s like this body. That’s a physical body, and it’s trying to contain this energy that’s non physical. So it’s, it’s it’s an incredible thing for the body to do for this small physical body to contain this universal energy. And that’s what makes it so intense. So this is slight, until it becomes more unified until the relative and the absolute become one. There is this slight friction where this is all resistance, where this body is still trying to unify with this non physical energy. So In a way the body almost becomes non physical at the end. It’s still physical in a way, but it’s non physical as well.
Rick Archer: Interesting. In Sanskrit, there’s the word tapas, which means heat. And, you know, spiritual practices sometimes referred to as tapas. And it’s like this kind of burning of the burning off of the dross, you know that. That is a cluding pure consciousness or that is gumming up the works of the physiology. And, you know, and it’s it’s regarded as an intense process, you know, that can go on for a long, long time. Is that burns? Yeah. And I mean, have you reached a point now, where there’s no, there isn’t so much that sense of intensity? It’s like relief that it’s most of it’s been burned off, and you’re just kind of cruising or what?
Linda Clair: I’m still burn? I don’t know. I don’t know if you’re ever cruising. It relatively Yeah, it’s it’s much. It’s much less intense in that way than it was. But I feel I still feel like there’s more I feel like I’ve got to a point, this is just what I feel. And I don’t really know, where it has become just completely natural. So it’s more that it’s all natural. There’s not this resistance to anything. But I feel there’s something else that’s going to happen. And I don’t know what and and that’s quite amazing to, to feel. There’s not an end to this. There’s, like you feel what else can happen. But then you start to go, well, anything can happen. And I don’t know. And I really don’t know. And that’s amazing. That’s an amazing thing to feel just totally. I don’t know, there’s no end to this. And
Rick Archer: it really charms my heart to hear you say that, because it’s somehow the way I think and anyway, I always like to have people who agree with us. But I get into these debates with people who say that they are finished, you know, and they’re there at the end. And there’s there’s nothing really more. And I always have the feeling. I don’t think so I think there must be more you’re just kind of reached some hiatus some some plateau, but it’s gonna keep on. Keep on going. So, essentially, and I, you know, anyway, that’s the point I was making.
Linda Clair: Well, I feel I feel there’s no end. How can there be any end? I mean, maybe that’s the the definition of Enlightenment. I don’t know, there’s there’s no end.
Rick Archer: I think maybe there is a beginning. Yeah, I think sometimes the reason people feel like there’s an end is that the absolute by definition, is understood. It’s complete, you know, it doesn’t change, it’s what can be added to it, you know, and so the, the feeling I guess people have is, well, if you are that absolute, if you become that absolute, if you know, under knowing yourself to be that, what more can be added to that.
Linda Clair: But the absolute, and this is the hard thing to accept. And it sounds crazy and illogical. And it is. But the absolute is relative, the absolute contains relativity. And that’s what I meant about the union of the absolute and the relative, right? So that’s what you have to admit rather than getting stuck in this absolute, which you can, in a way stagnating? And if you say you finished, God, what else is so you might as well die? This is there’s there’s always this relativity, within the absolute. That’s what I can see. And if you if you’re not open to that, well, there’s some sort of fear still there.
Rick Archer: It’s an interesting thing, let’s let’s go into this more relativity contained within the absolute and you You said earlier that at a certain stage, the absolute and relative seem to be completely separate, and had nothing to do with one another. And then they began to merge. And it seems to me that if we understand the Absolute to be, you know, all pervading and in omnipresent and so on, then what can actually be outside of it. How could there be anything separate from it? And of course, that’s, to a certain extent, an intellectual rumination, but what you’re saying is that your experience began to show that to you that, you know, the absolute relative aren’t separate, but in fact, everything is contained within a greater wholeness, right.
Linda Clair: Yeah. And and the relative is part of the absolute the absolute is everything, so it must contain the relative How can it not Yeah, And this whole thing sounds like a paradox. So saying the absolute contents the relative is. That’s how it is.
Rick Archer: There’s a whole some nice verses in the Vedas, about two full illnesses, you know, and how, how it really, there’s just one, it’s all one wholeness. But within that wholeness, you know, this is full, and that is full. And, you know, anyway, that purnaam adaya purnamidam, there’s a whole verse that goes on like that, both are full. Now, back to your thing about, you know, appreciating the relative more, and you were talking about peripheral vision and hearing conversations across the room and stuff like that. But I wanted to just delve in a little bit more to your actual perception. Would you feel that the word appreciation is appropriate in terms of what’s going on with your perception? I mean, when you look at a flower that say, and you say you were saying, like, even looking at the wall or something, you don’t have this kind of judgmental film that that colors, your perception, reminded of St. Paul saying, you know, we see through a glass darkly and we’ll eventually see clearly, but do you sort of feel like there’s this somehow deeper, richer, perhaps by virtue of no no judgment, no voice in the head, deeper, richer appreciation of each thing to which you give your attention.
Linda Clair: There is a deeper appreciation of, of everything, you know, I go out and it looks like it’s a sunny day today. And that’s beautiful. But I don’t, I don’t become I don’t become totally immersed in it. It’s like I see a flower. And it’s beautiful. Okay, then I that’s it, it’s gone.
Rick Archer: So it doesn’t it doesn’t overshadow pure consciousness, which at once would have there would have been this identification thing where you got lost in the perception.
Linda Clair: Yeah, yeah. And then I’d see a beautiful flower. And then I’d remember someone who gave me beautiful flowers at one time, or somewhere I used to live that had beautiful flowers. And now it’s just simply a flower. It might not be beautiful. It’s just a flower. That, yeah, I went to a shop yesterday and, and I saw this beautiful orchid. And it was lovely. And I bought the orchid, who was really, really nice. So in that way, yeah, I do appreciate things. Much more deeply than particularly a few years ago that I did wear a few years ago, there were times when I just didn’t really care about, about stuff like that. But now there is a deep appreciation without dwelling on it without becoming overcome by it. I know essentially, it’s it’s not going to affect how I feel, might be fun to buy a flower or to do something, see a movie, listen to music. But as soon as it’s finished, it’s gone. Or it’s out of the room, I forgotten about it completely. So it doesn’t it doesn’t stay with me.
Rick Archer: Yeah, seriously, everybody talks about living in the now you know, and not clinging to the past or pining for the future, whatever. And you just described beautifully a state in which you’re doing that. But you couldn’t have done that through some kind of psychological manipulation 15 years ago, where you’re, you know, it has to somehow be a natural way of functioning.
Linda Clair: Well, no, there’s no way I could have done it before. Someone said to me the other day, I’ve got this song in my head going around in my head again and again. And I said, Oh, well, that’s a real advantage of Enlightenment. You don’t, that doesn’t happen anymore. In fact, I just can’t remember what’s happened. And people get a bit offended by that sometimes, because they want you to remember them and what they said or done this and that and what happened. And most of the time, it’s just not there. But I seem to remember what I need to remember, I function much more efficiently than I used to, because I haven’t got all this memory stuff going on in my head. And I write things down and I’m reasonably organized with things. And
Rick Archer: yeah, that’s good. And I’ve heard people describe that that you know, we think how much energy we burning up we burn up by thinking 100 thoughts in a minute instead of the one thought that is actually worth thinking. There’s just all this going on. And
Linda Clair: What
Rick Archer: yeah,
Linda Clair: what what thought is worth thinking,
Rick Archer: Well, you know, something, you do have thoughts do you not steal but they’re not you don’t have
Linda Clair: Sometimes but not a whole lot.
Rick Archer: Well, that’s an interesting point, too. I had a discussion with someone one time he said he just doesn’t think any more since his Enlightenment at all. And I thought Well, you know, don’t you find yourself like, Isn’t there any kind of mental activity? I mean, if you’re speaking to me, there must be some kind of mental activity that precedes the physical action, even though it might not be. Or like, right now, if you were to sit and close your eyes for five minutes, would you just get into a state where there was absolutely no mental activity whatsoever? or would there be little ripples?
Linda Clair: There? I don’t know. I don’t know until I close my eyes. Well, you must do that every day. Right? When you say, Yeah, I do. But it’s different every time. So it’s not, you know, you think it’s going to be the same every time. But it’s not it changes, moment to moment. So when I said, I never know what’s, what’s going to happen. But there there is very, I can say there is very, very little thinking, because I just can’t get involved in a thought it’s actually harder for me to think now. Before I used to feel it’s impossible not to think how could I not think and now it’s the other way, it’s, it’s much harder to try and think, and I just can’t do it. Most of the time. If I say, I’m going to think about this, or that it’s, it’s become so so unnatural that I just can’t do it.
Rick Archer: Well, let’s say I mean, if you sit down to balance your checkbook, you know, sitting there, you’re doing math, you work in the calculator, whatever it isn’t, there’s some I mean, there’s isn’t there some mental activity that’s appropriate to the task at hand? And yet, you’re not thinking about what you did yesterday, or what you’re going to make for lunch? And all kinds of, you know what that person said to you? There’s not like all kinds of irrelevant thoughts. But there are thoughts related to what you’re actually doing?
Linda Clair: Well, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t say that there are thoughts. We say doing something like that. It’s more looking at the numbers, adding them up, seeing what’s left, you know, there might be more money left than I thought, Oh, actually, there’s not this expectation anymore. So you just see the money. So there’s not such a reaction, if you see are this $1,000 rather than $3,000. And there’s not a there’s not that there’s just looking at the numbers and doing it practically. So there’s not an emotional, there’s, there’s very little thinking, you thinking is is really overrated, and we feel we’ve got this deep fear that if we don’t think we don’t exist, and in a way, that’s true, we only exist because of thinking. But when there’s so many, most things that we do in the world don’t require thinking, like talking to you now this there’s no thinking involved. It’s spontaneous. Yeah, it’s completely spontaneous. And that’s what happens, everything becomes completely spontaneous, because there’s not this delay. In a way, there’s not this, me and you, there’s just, there’s just this. When there’s thinking involved, there’s a separation. So there’s a subject and an object. When there’s no thinking involved. There’s not that separation, there’s not that space, which implies time, between you thinking creates the illusion of time. It’s, and in this state, this, there’s no time. I mean, there’s no time you just realize that there’s no time.
Rick Archer: Well, I could ask you a question right now. And I could say, don’t answer me out loud. I want you to just sort of work out the answer in your head and then tell me or I could say, count from one to 10 in your mind without saying it out loud? And wouldn’t there be some mental activity in both instances? I’m just gonna establish the point that an enlightened person is not totally without mental activity. It’s just that there without extraneous unnecessary wasteful mental activity?
Linda Clair: Well, there’s a bit of is mental activity, necessarily thinking like the brain is different to the mind, the brain is a physical organism. So of course, I’m using my brain. But there doesn’t need to be thinking involved. So I feel what happens in this enlightening process is that the brain becomes pure, you actually become much more deeply intelligent, purely intelligent. When there’s no thinking involved people, people equate thinking with intelligence, but really, pure intelligence is just using your brain. And you realize the potential of your brain rather than the mind being involved in this intellectual understanding of everything. Yeah. And with Enlightenment, you realize your true intelligence. So you realize everything and thinking is a very, very small part of the whole thing. Right? It
Rick Archer: reminds me of The Wizard of Oz, you know, the way I’d be thinking I could be another Lincoln if I only had a brain.
Linda Clair: Yeah. And that’s one of the reasons I really, and meditation is really about being in your body, it’s like you’re using your body’s intelligence rather than the mind is very limited intelligence. So rather than using the mind as a reference point, you start to use your body as a reference point, which eventually, you let go of as well. But you need to use the body. Because it’s such a tangible organism is much more tangible than your mind. So you use your body as a stepping stone to to see clearly what’s happening in your mind.
Rick Archer: Like a, like a tool that can implement vehicle.
Linda Clair: Yeah, yeah, yeah. A vehicle.
Rick Archer: And you mentioned the body’s intelligence. But earlier, you refer to sort of like, almost like the intelligence of nature, a field of intelligence that’s vast, beyond the confines of the body. Thank you. You did, you’re saying we’re talking about pure unconsciousness. And in the same breath, you said, pure intelligence. And, you know, it’s that’s generally understood both or whichever term we use is generally understood in spiritual circles to be like, an unbounded field. And like the often the wave and ocean analogy is used, like that’s like the ocean. And then our individual bodies and minds individuality are like, just sort of expressions of that.
Linda Clair: Well, what I feel now is that I’ve become the ocean, there’s no separation between me and the ocean. So the body is the ocean. There’s not this there is, in a relative sense, there is this individual body. But it’s the same as the ocean. And the trees. And yeah,
Rick Archer: just like waves are nothing but water. They’re the same ocean. Yeah. Yeah. So with all this talk about thinking, what do you think is the impetus or the stimulus to thinking what is it that in most people keeps the mind racing, or at least percolating, and in an enlightened person enables it to come to rest?
Linda Clair: Fear of death of the body.
Rick Archer: So you mean some guy who’s walking down the street? And who’s thinking about a million things, what he’s going to do and what’s happening at work? And I, that’s all just because of fear of death of the body that all that mental activity is going on?
Linda Clair: Yeah. It all comes down to that. And
Rick Archer: ultimately,
Linda Clair: if Yeah, ultimately, it all comes down to that.
Rick Archer: Interesting. What about the whole notion of impressions, you know, they talked about this in Buddhism, where there’s this kind of, in, in Hinduism, they talk about the chit Vasanas, you know, which are all these stored impressions that we have uncountable numbers of them, and that they, they are always sort of giving rise to thoughts and desires and binding us to a cycle in which we pursue a desire, fulfill it reinforce the impression which causes us to pursue it, and there’s this, you know, kind of like treadmill that we’re on. Has that been part of your upbringing, that that understanding?
Linda Clair: Well, I, I wasn’t incredibly into Buddhism. I know I practice Zen and Tera Vaada Buddhism, but I wasn’t actually a Buddhist, it was just more the practice that so I’m not sure. I’m really not up on the theory, I can only talk about me.
Rick Archer: But in terms of your experience, do you feel like there had been, I think it might have covered this, maybe we get a little bit more out of it, that there that you had been driven by sort of latent impressions, from various times and you know, things you’ve experienced throughout your life, and that you’re no longer driven by those. You’re like a free spirit, so to speak.
Linda Clair: Yeah, yeah, that’s true that I can see I was driven by my past before and the past gradually dissolves.
Rick Archer: So what drives you now what what is the motivating force, gets you out of bed in the morning and causes you to do whatever you do? Love. Nice. And what is love?
Linda Clair: Freedom from fear.
Rick Archer: We keep going back to that.
Linda Clair: Great, great and from judgment, the absence of judgment. That’s what that’s what love is.
Rick Archer: Yeah, you said in your book a lot that You don’t really experience emotions. And I think, you know, that might scare some people, they might think, oh, that doesn’t sound good. I like motions. I want to experience emotions, especially the good ones. But I think you said that, you know, in what you’re describing something deeper than these relative emotions can emerge when those have gone away. And that is love. Right?
Linda Clair: Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s incredible. And you’re talking about things in the world that I I feel deeply about now. And I think the main thing, I remember my teacher saying once, love makes existence bearable. And, and that’s so true. It’s really true. But there’s a park just opposite me and I often walk around, it’s got a running track around it. And I have some really beautiful interactions with people without speaking, just walking around. And they might be walking in the opposite direction. So they’re walking by me. And just a smile, you know, the other the other day, a woman just smiled at me a nice smile back. And there was this incredible connection and joy in this one moment. And then it was gone. That was it. But it was just beautiful. So little things like that, that aren’t personal, just an energetic connection with people. A lovely day,
Rick Archer: there’s the love feel like something that just comes in a wave when there’s an interaction like that, or do you feel like it’s an undercurrent or continuum? That’s just kind of there all the time. And, and here and there something can stir it up a bit. But yeah, it’s there, regardless of whether anything stirs it up.
Linda Clair: Yeah, it’s there, regardless of whether anything, stirs it up. But it is lovely to have it stirred up.
Rick Archer: Yeah. And do you feel that does have a bliss component, the love?
Linda Clair: Not only more it did before. But now it’s, it’s more of a joy. I don’t I don’t really like using the word bliss too much? Because? I don’t know. It doesn’t describe it adequately. Yeah. It’s more of a deep joy is somewhat joy. Yeah, it’s a bit it’s a bit the same. It’s a bit similar, but it’s this, there are no words to describe. It’s just this incredible feeling of, of oneness. And when you feel it with another human being, it’s just so beautiful. Having that. That deep connection. And it’s why I love teaching. Because that’s, you know, there are other people consciously wanting, desiring this, this one is this deep connection, which is what everyone wants really. And, and so having that connection with someone is amazing.
Rick Archer: When you’re teaching, you’re sitting with a roomful of people, do you find or even if you’re walking down the street, for that matter, but probably more so when you’re teaching? Do you find a sort of a, an ability to assess where people are at individually? I mean, you know, can you get a sense of how far along the path they are? What what might be blocking them what they might need, in terms of, you know, the next step for them, that kind of thing?
Linda Clair: When I’m teaching when I’m just walking down the street, I don’t know. No, it’s just nice watch. I like watching people. That’s nice. Yeah. And just feeling energetically feeling them. And seeing little interactions. Like I might be on a tram. And something really lovely happens or funny happens. I really liked that. But when I’m teaching. Yeah, I do get a sense, especially talking more with people and knowing someone for a bit longer. I get a definite sense of where they are and what they need. And, and I don’t think about it, it’s, and sometimes I say things and I’ve got no idea why I set them all out. And I never prepare anything. I never prepare any talks or anything like that.
Rick Archer: Yeah, there’s because you know, when a person puts themselves in the position of teacher as you’ve done, if they’re qualified to do so, then it almost seems like certain aptitudes come out certain abilities, which they might not, not otherwise ever utilize that, you know, make them effective in the role that they’ve they’ve stepped into.
Linda Clair: Definitely, and I think one of my strengths, if you want to call it that is is the one to one interaction with people. Yeah, that’s what I really love. It’s great. I don’t think I’d be good. Sitting up in front of I mean, I don’t know. I really don’t know. But sitting up in front of a crowd. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Adyashanti, for example, is a great talker. And he’s great at that. But I don’t feel I’d been to that.
Rick Archer: Yeah, he was good at the one on one too. I’ve interviewed people who were with him in those days, but he’s just not it’s the whole thing grew too big. And he can’t do that. Yeah.
Linda Clair: Yeah. Probably love doing it, too. He would actually
Rick Archer: I even one guy who is friends with him and who has a very kind of small teaching circle. And he and Adria have had conversations where I just sort of, there’s nostalgic for for those days. Yeah.
Linda Clair: It’s a lovely thing to do. It’s just an amazing thing to do and seeing someone change? Well, you could say changing, but going more deeply into it before your eyes is is a beautiful thing to watch.
Rick Archer: Yeah. Have any of your students woken up yet to what you would consider Enlightenment or some significant shift?
Linda Clair: Well, a lot of them have had significant shifts a lot. But I’d say two have become enlightened. One of them, a man who’s teaching now doing some teaching, although he’s not doing too much, just just some. Yeah, and he’s in Adelaide, I’ve moved to Melbourne now another city. And, and then a woman who’s who died of cancer in last December, a few months before she died, she I would have described her as enlightened, relaxed.
Rick Archer: And how would you evaluate somebody to determine whether they were enlightened or not? Does it come again, back to the absence of fear? And they’re just there? There’s their kind of accounting of what they’re experiencing? Or how would you evaluate it?
Linda Clair: Well, for the woman who died, there was an absence of fear, a total acceptance of death. And there was the last few months there was just this glow about her, she’d, she’d sit there and look at flowers and just go, Ah, what a beautiful day it is. And she’d be, you know, she was going through chemo and she had cancer. It was awful. But she was just so beautiful. And she just became more and more beautiful every day. And with the man was just a very strong, energetic thing that was happening in him and this incredible determination and earnestness and love. And yeah,
Rick Archer: and then if he if he became enlightened, did the sort of the determination and earnestness relaxed because he had actually arrived at what he was determined to achieve?
Linda Clair: Yes, that’s what happens. But I think what you need to also be careful of is that it doesn’t become too relaxed as well.
Rick Archer: Yeah, Joseph Goldstein said something I was listening to use a Buddhist teacher in the USA is sort of a balance point between, you know, getting straining too much and getting sloppy. Yeah. Yeah. Like maybe like riding a bicycle or something. Even when you’re good. Yeah, you have to keep balancing.
Linda Clair: You do and, and post Enlightenment. If you want to use that term, you have to be very aware, and particularly aware, I think it’s at a different level. But you still have to see that, that you still need to stay on your toes and stay where this is for a while, I’d say for me, it was for about seven years.
Rick Archer: You have to stay aware, lest you lose your Enlightenment or less, or other some sorts of pitfalls that you might get yourself in trouble with. If you don’t stay aware or alert.
Linda Clair: Well, you never lose it. And that’s probably one of the other definitions of Enlightenment. It’s not something that you lose. But you have to be aware that you don’t start to become identified subtly in the ego at a different level. As I was, like I was saying before, you know, identified as a teacher, and I felt that I wasn’t identified as a teacher. And then when this man, Roger became enlightened, we talked together for a while and Really, it was really good for me as a teacher to see that there was something still in me. And there was this slight attachment to being the teacher. And these were my students. So there was it was, it was the perfect thing for me at the time.
Rick Archer: Yeah, you’ve probably heard the term spiritualized ego. And they’re examples, egregious examples of where people appear to have something profound has happened. And yet, they’re they’ve got these blind spots and end up becoming like, kind of outrageously, you know, self important and, and, you know, yeah, and get into all kinds of messy situations with students and whatnot. So I don’t know, it depends on how we define Enlightenment or something, it seems to me that if one is really enlightened, if the term really has profound implications, and we’re not just going to use it as a halfway measure, then hopefully there’s a point at which one wouldn’t wouldn’t fall prey to such behavior or such such a downfall. But you know, I guess it does pay to stay on your toes.
Linda Clair: Yeah, it does. And you need to become more and more humble. And I think part of the way of doing that is acknowledging, and maybe another part of having a teacher is acknowledging that your teacher is always going to be more deeply into this. The new Yeah, not not saying I’m the Supreme Being, blah, blah, blah, all that. But having this deep respect, and gratitude and love for one’s teacher?
Rick Archer: Good point. Yeah, however, enlightened one may be in some traditions, it’s one never stops acknowledging and paying respects to one’s teacher, you see, many people have a picture of the teacher behind them, you know, as a constant reminder that they’re just sort of kind of carrying on something that has been imparted to them, and they’re never kind of putting themselves on any kind of ultimate pinnacle.
Linda Clair: Yeah. Yeah. And that’s, that’s the reason. And that’s what you need to keep aware of.
Rick Archer: You know, a lot of times I started interviews with talking, talking to people about their personal life, and what what they went through at various stages, and spiritual practice, and this and that, and with you, we kind of started out at the end. Yeah, talking about Enlightenment. Perhaps folks would find it interesting to just hear a little bit about, you know, how you started out with all this, I think you were like, 37, before he even got interested in spirituality and want to give us an overview of that.
Linda Clair: Yeah, I, well, I just had a normal upbringing. wasn’t rich, wasn’t poor, fairly happy and contented, and went to university and then became a bit of a hippie. I met my then partner at the time. And we had two children. I had them when I was my son when I was 25, my daughter when I was 26. And then we traveled around a bit, doing different things. And he was always interested, my ex partner, Dave, he was always interested in meditation. Enlightenment, was into Ramana Maharshi. And I was a bit interested, but not not really interested. I can see at the time now that I needed to do a few things, which included having children, for whatever reason, and I’m glad I did that was great. So he actually would go around traveling, selling, I was an artist at the time, and he’d go around selling my work. And he’d always be on the lookout for someone enlightened or a teacher. So he went to see Barry along quite regularly. And I went once with him. And it was sort of interesting, but didn’t, didn’t affect me deeply. Well, not that I was aware of. And then he found this teacher up near Byron Bay, who he went to see a few times and he was really impressed by. And then I was up there with him once we were on holidays, and he wanted to go and meditate with Peter, this teacher. And I remember saying, No, I don’t want to go we’re on holiday, on holidays, such as, I don’t want to go there. So he virtually dragged me along to this meditation evening. And it was it was good. But I still wasn’t really into it. And then we kept I kept up contact with Peter and Dave, we’d go and see him when he could. He lived a long way away from where we were living and then I went up there again one time and we went and had dinner with Peter and his wife. And outside, we were saying goodbye, this was in the evening. And I just looked at him looked at Peter. And something happened. It was like something just clicked. And I suddenly saw this incredible depth and potential in me, through him in him. And from that moment, I started, you know, I got back, I remember, I got back to where I was living, I flew back. And suddenly, all I wanted to do was be around this person around this beam. So eventually, we moved up there, and moved very close to where Peter was sleeping, and he was giving regular meditation sessions and, and I just gradually, well, quite quickly, actually got just took to meditation straightaway, but it was more. My connection with Peter to it was, it was almost like it was a mixture of meditation and devotion and love. And I wasn’t that sort of person to start with. So it really surprised me. And it wasn’t an outward, who’s fantastic. But it was very contained within myself. And it felt very private. But that’s when I really started getting into it. So I spent six years was around six years, doing regular retreats with him. Seeing him when I could, and I just became quite obsessed with the whole thing with him. And with meditation and Enlightenment. That’s all I wanted. And I still had the rest of my life. I still have my children and work and partner and, and all that. But, and that was good, because it actually stopped me from becoming overly obsessed by the whole thing. So that grounded me to a degree. And I didn’t talk to many people about it, because they just thought I was just totally obsessed, which I was. And I’d say to a friend, I am going to do another retreat, and she’d say another one. And so yeah, that’s how it was.
Rick Archer: There’s this Peter fellow still around.
Linda Clair: Yeah, he is he is he’s Peter. Peter Jones. His name is he calls himself Peter G. Now he, Peter G. But he’s not teaching at the moment because it’s been quite sick. So I went to see him a few weeks ago. And that was, that was great.
Rick Archer: And then you ended up going to Japan and studying with Roshi is over there.
Linda Clair: Yeah, well, Peter stopped doing retreats so much. He just wasn’t doing retreats. And I felt after a certain stage, I really needed a bit more discipline and structure. I think I was probably a bit comfortable with my life and physically and I went and did a retreat. It was still in Australia, but with a Japanese Zen teacher. Hogan. Yeah, mohatta. And so I started doing retreats with him. And then then I found out he talked about his master all the time. And I felt Wow, this guy’s pretty amazing. But so his master must be incredible. And then someone said, he’s, he takes Western students in Japan, in his monastery. And as soon as they said, that was I knew I was gonna go. So not long after that, I decided to go. And I only spent six weeks there. But God, it was the hardest six weeks of my life. It was so difficult. It was really, really cold. But it was for me, it was exactly the right time I really needed to get away from any sort of security that I had in my life. Go somewhere totally unknown, and where I didn’t know anyone. And the conditions were really harsh and be around this amazing being who was the most compassionate being I’ve ever met.
Rick Archer: And so you went through this ordeal and then at what point? I guess you had some initial awakening, and then the final enchilada, the final Enlightenment. And did that all happen in the context of these Zen retreats?
Linda Clair: No, the initial awakening happened about a year after I met Peter. So that was probably when I was around 3838 39. And that was just a recognition that the mind was not reality. You know, there was there was no mind that was the initial recognition. But because I was with Peter, he’d sort of warned me about it. And it happened and it was amazing. But then I was ready to really put in the work after that. So rather than the temptation is to say, Okay, that’s it. I’ve had an awakening, this is amazing. But to see that it’s only the beginning is another thing. And he really helped me see that, and encouraged me to keep going.
Rick Archer: And so then the big awakening was when
Linda Clair: that would have been, well, I didn’t know that at the time, but it would have been it was when I was in Japan, with Harada, Tang and Rashi when I was there. And but I didn’t actually realize it until about nine months later in a retreat with Hulk Hogan son. So I think that’s sort of
Rick Archer: why didn’t you realize it was subtle, or, you know, I mean, there must have been something that really shifted, but you woke up the next day, and you went on. And I mean, things weren’t different enough that you felt like, whoa, what has happened?
Linda Clair: I think I was just in shock. It was, it was so shocking. And I hadn’t completely realized that it had happened. But it’s such a deep shock
Rick Archer: that felt like something has has happened. And it’s shocking, but I don’t know what this is. And it took you nine months to grow into a realization of what it was.
Linda Clair: Yeah, yeah. It was like it was this time, time lapse this delay in realizing it, because I probably hadn’t completely realized it. But the initial shock had happened. And it wasn’t it’s not something that you can define or or no, you know, it’s something that you’ve never experienced before. So it’s very hard to put it into context and to, to completely realize it. Yeah. Because it’s really, it’s realizing the unknown. I mean, I could see things were happening when I was there. But I didn’t realize that until later, because there was so deep, so intense.
Rick Archer: So it’s not like it happened. And then nine months went by and all sudden, at the end of nine months. Aha, that’s what it was. But it was more like a kind of a growing into it over over that nine month period. Is that Yeah, that’d be fair. Yeah,
Linda Clair: it was. It was like a gradual realization over that nine month period.
Rick Archer: And so at the end of the nine months, what was it about the end of the nine months that you finally put a lid on it? So you finally sort of realize, okay, and now when I’m finished, I know, I know what that was, how to wrap it up.
Linda Clair: I was doing a 10 day retreat in Australia with hugging some Zen teacher. And the first few days, we’re fine. I was just doing my practice and sitting, walking, sitting, walking. And then something happened, I think it was on around the third or fourth day. And Hogan son used to come around and adjust our posture. Sometimes when when we were sitting, and he came around and adjusted mine, and he touched me. And I just let out this really strange noise. It was like oh, and suddenly, I felt really embarrassed, and really incredibly self conscious. And it was like I thought, after all this stuff, all this practice, and everything I’ve been through. And something like this still makes me feel self conscious. And it’s like it did something to me, it was like a turbo boost. And I went, Okay, I’ve had enough of this, I’m not going to do this anymore. And from that point on in the during the retreat, I made this decision to sit through, we’d have half an hour or I think it might have been 40 minutes sitting and then five or 10 minutes walking and then another 40 minutes sitting and then we’d have a break morning tea or whatever and then come back. And I decided to sit through every setting because I’ve realized I’d been a bit slack to start with and I was just being comfortable and a bit bit lazy taking it easy. So that’s what I started doing. So I’d hear the bell go and there was a bit of pain but not all that much pain, but every time the bell would go and I just decided to sit through the whole thing. I’d get This wave of fear coming through my body,
Rick Archer: you mean the bill would go telling you that that session was over. And you could go take a break, but you wouldn’t get a break, you just kept sitting
Linda Clair: for like, Yeah, from 930, till around 1230, I decided to just sit there. So I’d sit there and I’d he would hear the bills going. And every time the bill would would go, it was like, Oh, this is my chance to sit up. But I knew I was determined to sit there. And my heart would start beating. And I just felt this incredible fear in my body, and my heart was just something. And that would happen every time the bill would go. And it was like, it was this incredible, incredibly deep fear of the pain. I mean, essentially, it was fear of death. And that just kept happening through over the next few days, and the heart beating gradually subsided, but and after the set, I just, you know, lunchtime, I just go out and lie on the grass and just feel amazing. But it just the fear. And this was just this residual fear just eventually dissolved. And there was one set where it was in the morning, I had a headache. And I used to be quite prone to headaches. And I knew this headache, I felt this headache was going to evolve into a stronger headache. And I was a bit tempted to take a tablet Panadol or something. And then I thought no, no, I won’t, I don’t want it to dial me at all. I’ll wait, or wait until later. So I was sitting there and just really watching this headache really closely. And then suddenly, it just, it just went it just went completely. And any pain that I had in my body, it just all went. And I had this feeling this strange feeling of reality becoming tangible. It’s really hard to explain it was almost like I’ve described it like this before a fairy tale coming true. So it’s like the impossible, was suddenly real. Everything that I thought was unreal, became real, and very tangible. And in me. And I remember one of the last things I heard my mind saying was, This can’t be happening to you. And it was quite amazing. It’s just this faint, this can’t be happening to you. And then everything just went. And it was it was just this, the tangibility of it all that that was so real. So it wasn’t a bright life, it was like everything had just clicked into place. In a different way to how I thought it was going to click into place. And from then on, I just kept sitting through and containing this realisation, which was what it was, but it was like, there were no questions about it just nothing, no questions at all about what had happened. It was just completely obvious to me. And I didn’t say anything to my teacher at that stage. I just kept sitting through the retreat. But it was this incredible. Knowing that not knowing, knowing if the unknown or
Rick Archer: interesting, kind of reminds me of Buddha under the Bodhi tree, you know, so I’m just gonna sit here until I get enlightened as this kind of determination. Yeah, yeah. In fact, there’s a thing and I think it’s the Yoga Sutras for Patanjali classifies Yogi’s in terms of how readily they’ll gain Enlightenment, and he says, Those with vehement intensity will gain it the most quickly. So it kind of reminds me that too, you had this vehement intensity, and I’m gonna sit here come hell or high water, and it paid Oh,
Linda Clair: yeah. And that was it. And it was simply from that reaction and just going, Ah, I’ve had enough I can’t stand this anymore. And I’d had previously I’d had degrees of that, but not to that level. And, yeah, it was just this incredible determination is one of the things you really need.
Rick Archer: It’s Yeah, it’s interesting because some people say things like Do you know that desiring Enlightenment is kind of like, it only intensifies this the sense of the individuality who desires it? And, and or it’s like, holding it, it’s chasing a carrot, you know, you’re always running after something that, you know, you’re never going to reach because it’s carrots always out in front of you. And really, it’s right here. But, you know, like some of the other things we’re agreeing upon earlier. I, I feel like, there’s really something to be said for that. And I’ve seen many examples of that there’s a correlation between strong determination and actual realization. In fact, there there are various sages that say, you know, that I think it was undermined ma who said that the, the desire for God is in itself the way to realize God. Yeah, more profound that desire, the more likely the realization.
Linda Clair: True, true, and and probably the deeper the realization to Yeah, I think I use I use my teachers as the carrot. Yeah, I use my teacher as a carrot. So every time I would see him, it was like, Ah, it’s true. Yeah, it’s real. And you need someone in the body in front of you, proving to you that it’s real, because your mind is never going to believe it and never.
Rick Archer: And determination can be intensified candidate. I mean, it’s kind of like a fire that you can add fuel to it. Because if a person listening to this feels like, doesn’t like it’s gonna happen to me, because I’m kind of lukewarm. Well, you could take that lukewarmness and continually heat it up.
Linda Clair: Yep. Yeah. And, and that’s, that’s what I did. I mean, being around my teacher, being around someone free is really going to intensify the whole thing.
Rick Archer: Yeah, there’s a saying that to what you give your attention grows stronger in your life.
Linda Clair: Yeah, and you have to give this to really go the whole way. You have to give it your complete attention. It has to be number one priority.
Rick Archer: Yeah. I mean, the title of your book here is what do you want? And what is in Big Red? Yeah. Yeah. Now, when you wrote this book, or when they had the conversations that are in this book, you were with somebody named Dave, apparently, but then you just be been referring to him as your ex partner. Now, you and Dave no longer together?
Linda Clair: No, no, we were together. 30 years. Okay. And when I was, you know, when I was 22, we had two children. Okay.
Rick Archer: So he Yeah, okay. Yeah. And yet you so you split up post Enlightenment.
Linda Clair: And that doesn’t mean everyone who’s married is going to split up? People get scared of that. But
Rick Archer: is there anything I can ask you about, you can elaborate about in terms of how that went? That wouldn’t be too personal or, you know, compromise your confidentiality with Dave or whatever. But I mean, because it’s people are interested in relationships, and they wonder how Enlightenment is going to affect their relationships, whether it’s going to enhance them, whether it’s going to end them. And you’ve talked about how what motivates you is, you’re kind of on automatic in a way, there’s just this sort of spontaneous way of going through your life now. So is there anything you can say about how your awakening impacted a 30 year relationship and affect ended it? Or was it not really related to your awakening that it ended?
Linda Clair: It impacted on it, it does change the dynamics of a relationship. So I don’t know if I want to go into it too much, because it’s talking about
Rick Archer: Yeah, I don’t know why he’s not here. Yeah. That’s why I asked the question that way. I don’t want to put you on the spot. And Dave was obviously very spiritual guy. So
Linda Clair: yeah. And he still is, yeah. And it did definitely affect the dynamics of it. And I saw there were deep habits that we’d got into that you you can’t help but get into in a, in a long term relationship. That there were deep out of habits that that I’d got into that I hadn’t really worked on during my practice, even though I could see them because I was just putting so much energy into into this into my practice. And it was really good being in a having a reasonable, a reasonably stable family life during my practice to is very grounding and having someone there and especially someone who was, who was into it as well, and they were challenged. It’s as well, because one of you is probably always going through some some stirring up some deep emotional thing. So, and we started when when I first started teaching, we started together. And he actually did the transcribing for that book and edited it and everything. And we started all that up together. And why we separated? Lots of reasons. Really.
Rick Archer: Okay, I won’t press that. Too private to
Linda Clair: Were friend. We’re friends now, though.
Rick Archer: Yeah, that’s great. Yeah. Okay. Good. Is there anything that you feel we might have left out that you want to make sure to say before we wrap this up?
Linda Clair: Probably lots of things, but I can’t think of No. Have you got any more questions?
Rick Archer: Oh, you know, it’s funny, after I do these interviews, I always think of things I want, I should have asked and, and sometimes I feel a little bit down because I feel like Donna and I really kind of skimmed the surface in this area where it could have gone deeper. And I didn’t do justice to this person. And so I’m very critical of myself, and I probably think too much. But I think this is going reasonably well. And it gives people a well, there’s certain practical things we could mention, like, you know, people are living, you know, in Holland or someplace and they were kind of felt a resonance with you. Do they have to travel to Australia? Do you do Skype sessions with people? I mean, how, how can a person become their your student if they want to?
Linda Clair: Well, yeah, I do. I’m doing more and more Skype sessions with people. And I travel a little bit. I’m coming to the states in a few weeks, actually. Okay. I’m doing Yeah, I’m doing a retreat. I’m doing an evening in a place called Lynchburg. And Virginia, Virginia, and the TAT weekend. near Washington. I’m not exactly sure if the place that I think that’s in Virginia to
Rick Archer: it is it’s near Virginia. So a lot of Civil War history there.
Linda Clair: Yeah. And then I’m doing a five or six day six day retreat in the Catskills new New York.
Rick Archer: Okay. retreats up there. Did you Yeah, well, it sounds it’s gonna be
Linda Clair: the I think it’s, I’m not sure it’s on my wish. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So I’m doing the things in Lynchburg. The end of August. And then I think it’s the 12th to the 17th of September, but it’s on my website. So you can see.
Rick Archer: And are these events fall? or can people still sign up for him?
Linda Clair: I think there’s still spaces. I’m not sure about residential spaces, but there are still spaces. That’s cool. Yeah, so check my website. It’s all on there. And yeah, I, I usually go to the States once a year or Canada. I’ve done a couple of retreats in Canada likely, right? So do that.
Rick Archer: And so if people listening to this want you to come where they are like to the UK or Europe or South Africa or someplace like that. Are you open to going other places?
Linda Clair: If someone organizes a retreat? Yeah, sure. Okay, great. Organize, I have a fair few retreats here every year, but yeah, I’m always open to going somewhere else.
Rick Archer: Good. I’ll put that out there. People are listening to this. They can get in touch with you through their work through your website. Okay, well, thanks. This is I think we’ve covered quite a lot of ground. Really appreciate it’s been seven to nine in the morning for you and Australia. Set you out. Yeah, that’s two hours time flies when you’re having fun Kermit the Frog put it times fun when you’re having flies. You know, Kermit the Frog. So let me make a few wrap up points. I’ve been speaking with Linda Claire. And she obviously lives in Australia but gets around those Skype sessions I’ll be what is your website?
Linda Clair: www dot simple meditation,
Rick Archer: any dancer, anything, just all spread together simple meditate. It’s just all
Linda Clair: it’s just all simple. meditation.in our case dotnet.
Rick Archer: Okay. And I’ll also be linking to that from your page on batgap.com. And obviously, people know how the internet works. They can go there and explore and get in touch with you and find out what you’re up to. And this interview has been one and it can Continuing series there 240 Something now. And if you would like to look at other ones there, go to batgap.com Bat gap. And you’ll look under past interviews and you’ll see about four different kinds of index index. There’s alphabetical chronological, topical or categorical index, and most and most watched ones most popular ones. Under future interviews, there’s a list of upcoming guests and a place to suggest new guests. If you’d like to suggest one. Then there’s a Donate button, which I appreciate people clicking. And if they didn’t click it, I wouldn’t be doing this. But they do and sufficient numbers to enable this to continue. And if support increases even more, I’ll start doing this full time. There’s a link to sign up for to be notified by email every time a new interview is posted. There is a link to an audio podcast of this on iTunes, which you’ll see in Linda’s interview, and in every other one, it says, you know, video below and also available as an audio podcast, click there, you’ll go to sign up in iTunes. And there’s a forum, which is sometimes pretty active, sometimes not. But each guest has their own little section in the forum where people can discuss points that have been raised in that particular interview. So there’ll be a link to that on Linda’s page. So that just about covers it. So thanks again, Linda. Thank you, Rick. Thanks to those who’ve been listening or watching and I’m gonna do two interviews this weekend. So tomorrow’s interview is going to be with Dan Harris, who’s the host of ABC Nightline and weekend Good Morning America who has written a book called 10% happier, so he’s kind of a well known guy speaking with him tomorrow. So, till then, sayonara.