Kenny Johnson Interview

Summary:

Key takeaways:

• Personal Transformation: Kenny Johnson’s profound spiritual transformation occurred during his time in prison, leading him to a path of spiritual teaching and consulting.
• Message of Grace: He emphasizes the message that “God’s Grace Is Here Now,” which he passionately shares with others.
• Literary Contributions: Kenny authored “The Last Hustle,” detailing his life as a criminal and his subsequent spiritual awakening.
• Influence of Gangaji: Meeting the spiritual teacher Gangaji had a significant impact on his life and spiritual journey.
• Educational Initiatives: He promotes reading and spiritual growth among the incarcerated, aiming to provide hope and enlightenment.
• Cycle of Crime: Kenny discusses the cycle of crime, addiction, and the importance of second chances.
• Spiritual Practices: He highlights the importance of creating sacred spaces and the depth of spiritual lostness in Maya.
• Giving Back: Kenny is dedicated to giving back to the community and addressing issues with superficial spiritual teachings, often referred to as “popcorn gurus.”

Full interview, edited for readability:

Rick: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer and my guest this week is Kenny Johnson. Welcome Kenny.

Kenny: Hello, how are you doing Rick?

Rick: Great. Here’s a little bio from Kenny’s website. We’ll be hearing this story in detail, but Kenny spent over 20 years in prison and has been out of prison since 1997. He is a spiritual teacher and consultant to families and to those who have been out of prison and may be going to jail. He also just finished his book, The Last Hustle, chronicling his years as a criminal and how he was transformed while incarcerated. Kenny has one passion and that is sharing the message that God’s grace is here now. Kenny’s spiritual awareness and other spiritual teachers’ insights have been published in the book The Awakening West by John Lumiere Wins and Lynn Marie Lumiere. Here’s a quote from Kenny, “If there’s anything worth serving, it’s this love. If there’s anything worth being, it’s this love. If there’s anything worth talking about, it’s this love. If there’s anything of real value, it’s this love.” So that’s a beautiful quote.

Kenny: Thanks Rick.

Rick: Yeah. I don’t know if you remember, but we’ve actually met three times over the years. The first time was a long time ago. You must not have been out of prison very long. You came to Fairfield, Iowa and you spoke and I came to your talk. And I remember at one point when you first mentioned Gangaji in your talk, you doubled over with emotion

Kenny: Right

Rick: And that really impressed me.

Kenny: Right

Rick: Then later on I asked some stupid in-my-head kind of question [laughter] and you gave me a very down-to-earth answer that brought me right out of my head, into my heart. And that impressed me. And then the second time we met was a few years later out in San Ramon at Ammachi’s ashram

Kenny: Yeah

Rick: in the dining hall. And I said, “Hey Kenny, how are you doing? What are you doing these days?” And you said, “I’m driving a limousine.” And I said, “Oh, are you a spiritual teacher?” And you said, “No, I’m driving a limousine.” [laughter] And that impressed me. [laughter] And then the third time we met was last year at the Science and Non-Duality Conference. You didn’t do anything to impress me then, [laughter] but we talked about having, arranging this interview and here we are. So I’m glad we were able to do it.

Kenny: You’ve got a good memory. I remember you. I was telling my partner, Pilar, that we had met before, but I forgot about the Fairfield, Iowa time.

Rick: Yeah, it was a long time ago. It must have been

Kenny: Oh about

Rick: the late ’90s or something.

Kenny: Yeah, I just got out of prison then.

Rick: Yeah

Kenny: Yeah, I just got out of prison, 1997. Yeah. And then San Ramon, I remember, I vaguely remember that. Cuz you said, “Limousine?” I said, “Yes, I was driving a limousine.” And I was happily, happy, happily driving a limousine.

Rick: Sure. [laughter] Not a bad job.

Kenny: Mhm. And speaking of the Science and Non-Duality Conference, that has been a great conference for me and the work that I’m doing. I’m glad that they’re doing it.

Rick: Are you going again this year?

Kenny: I’m going again this year.

Rick: Good, so I’ll see you there. And last year we met just right after Gangaji’s talk, and she’ll be there again this year. So

Kenny: Yes;

Rick: it’s a nice little family reunion kind of thing.

Kenny: Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Yes.

Rick: So I’m sure you’ve told your story a thousand times,

Kenny: Yes, I have.

Rick: and hopefully you’re not getting too tired of telling it, but many of my listeners may not have heard it. So I would like to invite you to tell it again in as much detail as you want. We have all the time in the world.

Kenny: Okay

Rick: As much detail as you feel is relevant and interesting to people, let’s go into it. Maybe I’ll throw in a question every now and then.

Kenny: Okay, okay. It’s always good to start at the end and go back to the beginning.

Rick: Okay

Kenny: I’m living in California now, and living in California I’m working with people incarcerated. And I had no idea that all my years of being in and out of prison would prepare me for the work of working with people incarcerated, mainly and specifically women, Rick. And so I work in a San Francisco county jail with women once a week, bringing, I would say, dignity to those incarcerated, to those women, because their dignity has been taken from them, ripped from them, stripped from them. And I try my best to go there, sit down, and just be a kind, loving man,

Rick: Mhm

Kenny: just listening, with no agenda, no direction, no purpose. And you say, “Well, what credentials, what qualifies you to do this? Did you do — do you know — what therapies you know?” And it was all those years of being in the streets and having to watch out for the next person, be able to read an individual correctly and say, “This person is a friend, this person is a foe.” And so when I started out as a young hustler in Kansas City, Missouri, at the age of 14 years of age, I was stealing, I was mainly a thief, a sneak thief, sneaking into offices and buildings and taking people’s money out of their safes and out of their cash drawers. And my mother, bless her heart, tried her best to get me to go the right way by taking me to church, you know, getting me involved in community activities, or even — she even had a community fireman take me in as a young man and try to give me skills, contracting skills, so that I wouldn’t be stealing. And all of that — none of that really stuck because it was — I was bound and determined, and it was my destiny, to be a criminal, as I look back on it. It was my destiny to be a criminal and to steal and to bring a lot of pain and suffering to people’s lives. Because as a thief, you steal a car, somebody come out, their car is gone. You break into the house, they feel violated. You cash checks, you know, the banks have to make up for it. You rob a bank, you’re traumatizing people. You put women on the streets as a pimp, as a hustler, they’re wounded, most likely, for years and years and years to come because of the things you ask them to do for you in the name of the dollar bill. And so there was a lot of things that I did that I’m not proud of, but it was my destiny to be in prison in order to experience this moment with you. I had to go to jail in order to have this conversation with you.

Rick: Yeah. I understand, yeah.

Kenny: Because you were — Rick Archer was destined to do a number of things in order to sit here in front of this camera and have a conversation with me. It wasn’t like, you know, Rick says, “Well, I don’t want to be a college-educated gentleman. I don’t want to be married. I don’t want to have kids, dogs, whatever.” But you had to go through all that in order for us to arrive here today to have this conversation about the divinity that is present at all times, whether we realize it or not.

Rick: Yeah. I believe that. I don’t, my life was a lot easier than yours, but there was some rough stuff, alcoholism and things like that in the family, and I even went to jail a couple times myself, but it was just for a night or two, a little marijuana, nothing big. But all that stuff —

Kenny: Well how did, okay, Rick, you’re the interviewer, but I’m going to interview you, but I’m going to interview the interviewer.

Rick: Okay.

Kenny: How did it feel to go to jail just that one time? Just that one time, how did it feel?

Rick: It was a little scary. The first time it was in Bridgeport, Connecticut, and I had long hair, which was a little new in those days, back in the ’60s, and there were a lot of these big, tough, no offense intended, big, tough Black guys who didn’t like me.

Kenny: Right.

Rick: And they were kind of like muttering and yelling things at me and all. I was a 17-year-old kid, so it was a little scary.

Kenny: That’s right.

Rick: But it was also an interesting experience. I remember this one old guy, he had, I guess, been a wino, and he kind of hiccuped and burped constantly. He was real friendly to me, and he came in my cell, and we sat there and had this conversation. I don’t know. It was just an experience, and I’m sure it was very insignificant compared to all the stuff you went through, but it gave me a taste of that.

Kenny: It gave you a taste. So you know how it feels to be handcuffed?

Rick: Yes, I was handcuffed.

Kenny: You know how it feels to be photographed, fingerprinted?

Rick: Yep, yep

Kenny: You know how it feels to have your liberty? You cannot call, you cannot move, you cannot do anything?

Rick: Yes. In fact, I have dreams. I don’t know about recently, but decades later I still had dreams about it.

Kenny: That’s right, because that is very traumatic for any human being to be taken away and kidnapped in the name of whatever you want to call it, and placed in a cell, and not being able to move or go anywhere or contact your loved ones or whatever else for a number of hours. That’s trauma.

Rick: Yeah.

Kenny: And I experienced that 20 years worth.

Rick: Yeah, really. I can’t even imagine.

Kenny: Yes. Well, it’s magnifying yours 20 years. [Laughter] Magnifying the big guy’s 20 years. “Hey, Rick, come here, man.” [Laughter]

Rick: I understand the whole thing got started because you had been working in some summer job doing construction and stuff,

Kenny: Yes, yes.

Rick: and very sincerely working very hard and all, and then the guy ripped you off, you know, and it totally disillusioned you.

Kenny: What happened is, really, the tipping point, I was already a thief by … I was just a thief, I was a criminal somewhat by nature. I wasn’t afraid to steal. But my mother wanted me to do the right thing, my stepfather wanted me to do the right thing, and I wanted to do the right thing because I had been in juvenile hall for a year, and I didn’t like that. The boys’ home for a year, and I didn’t really like that. And so I said, “Okay, Mom, I’m going to go along with this plan of yours.” So I moved in with Conrad, and I took care of him. I babysat his children. I learned how to paint. I learned how to put windows in. I learned how to wash windows. I learned how to put floors in, carpeting in, everything. A construction worker would do. And at the end of the summer, the deal was that I would work for him all summer. He would save all my money and pay me at the end of the summer. So I have school clothing. I went along with the plan. Come August, it was time to get school clothing and get the money, and I said, “Conrad, can I get paid?” He says, “Yes, you can. Let’s sit down at my desk.” He got his calculator out. He got it counting, multiplying, dividing, subtracting. And when he got through, he gave me a $32 check.

Rick: Paid you about 50 cents a day or something.

Kenny: 50 cents, yeah, he justifies it, he said, “Well, you stayed at my house. You ate my food. You did blah, blah, blah.” But as a young man, I said, “That wasn’t the deal.” I didn’t know about all that part. In his head, that was the deal, but in mine, it wasn’t the deal. I worked, I get so much money. I took the check home to my mother, and my mother didn’t back my play. So I said, “You know what? I’m going to do it my way now.” I called my little hoodlum friends, my hustling buddies. They taught me how to hustle and put some money in my pocket. Once an individual, a human being, knows they can walk out the house, get a gun, get a knife, or get a pencil or paper, whatever, and make money, they’re cool. I knew I could walk out the house with a screwdriver or my wits and make some money to feed myself. Once I knew how to do that, I’m cool. In other words, I wasn’t going to starve. That’s what life is all about. How can you not starve?

Rick: Basically.

Kenny: Basically. Right now, Rick has to put the money on the table, or he’s going to be skin and bones. There won’t be a Rick, there won’t be a Buddha at the Gas Pump. There’ll be a Skeleton at the Gas Pump.

Rick: Is your mother still alive, by the way?

Kenny: My mother’s still alive.

Rick: That’s great. I was thinking as I was listening to your recordings, I was thinking, “I hope his mother’s still alive, because she can be so proud now about how things have turned out.”

Kenny: Mm-hmm. She doesn’t know anything about Gangaji. I showed her a couple of videos about Gangaji. She doesn’t really care about Gangaji’s message. All she knows is that wherever this woman is, she performed a miracle, because her son is out and living a productive life.

Rick: That’s great.

Kenny: That is really, really, really, really, to her, a blessing and a godsend.

Rick: Yeah, really. She must be very happy and proud.

Kenny: Yes, she is.

Rick: Good. Let’s continue the story. You’re a young guy. You’re starting to do all this illegal stuff.

Kenny: Yes.

Rick: And then what?

Kenny: I start going to jail.

Rick: Okay.

Kenny: I started doing all this illegal stuff, and it started getting good, because every time you would make a hustle and get a few hundred dollars, a thousand dollars, whatever, in your pocket, you’d say, “Wow,” and that just boosts your ego and boosts you up and gives you more confidence, whereas you’re actually digging a deeper hole. So the more every time I went out and hustled and made some money, I was digging a deeper hole into the world of hustling, where there was almost like there was no turning back. So over the months and weeks of 1965 and ’66, I was hustling, and I got busted for stealing some jewelry in 1966 in Kansas City, Kansas. And that was my first

Rick: arrest

Kenny: arrest for a felony. To land me in prison for five years, and that’s what happened. I got arrested for stealing $10,000 worth of jewelry. I was 17 years of age. They waited until I turned 18 to sentence me. I went to jury trial, of course, they convicted me. And then I went to sentencing when I was 18 years of age in October 1966, and I spent two and a half years in state prison in Kansas. And while I was in prison, I started reading. This was the beginning of my education. I started–1966 is a revolutionary period. Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, revolution was strong. Angela Davis, Huey Newton, I mean everybody was–the Black Panthers, Patty Hearst, all of that was just like in the news every day. I’m following this, and I’m reading these books, these revolutionary books, and I’m reading Time Magazine, Newsweek, and Life Magazine about all these different people. And then I started reading about Malcolm X, and I started reading his autobiography and how he said–how he educated himself in prison was to read the dictionary. I got me a dictionary and started reading that dictionary. Oh, and as an aside note, every Monday I go into the women’s county jail here in San Francisco, and I passed out 56 copies of my book, and now they keep asking for what? A dictionary.

Rick: Interesting. They’re going to do it too.

Kenny: They’re going to do it too. And so now I’m taking two dictionaries in tomorrow, matter of fact. I bought me a couple–some dictionaries, and I’m going to start doing that so they can have plenty of dictionaries in the jail.

Rick: Hey, you know, just before I forget, if maybe–would you like some– if people have dictionaries in their house and they’re not using them, they’re just sitting on the shelf, would you like them to send them to you to increase your collection? You could give them to the ladies?

Kenny: You know, right now, man, I’m glad you mentioned this. Right now, just tell them to send–I hope I’m not opening up a flood gate of stuff. But, yes, send them to my PO Box because I can take them in to the women and they will read them. I work with 56 women, so 56–anything would be a benefit because they will read them. And what they can’t read, it’ll be in the library. It’ll make the–it’ll make the–it’ll be in the jail forever.

Rick: So not just dictionaries but other kind of spiritual books or interesting books or things like that.

Kenny: I gave my copy of the books to 56 women, and they keep–they’re quoting, “You said this, you said this.” And what I do, Rick, like I go into–I’m going to give you a story. Last Monday, I went in, and it was my fourth day working with these women. I went in, I introduced them to meditation like Gangaji does. I go and we sit in meditation for five minutes or ten minutes. And I know they came, but they had a lot of meditation, so I sit about one or two minutes. So last Monday, I went, I sat down, I closed my eyes, and they knew to close their eyes. And, man, wow. We just deepened. And, Rick, as a T.M.er, you know, as soon as we closed our eyes, we were there.

Rick: Yes, we settle right in.

Kenny: I said, “Whoa!” I had–I said, “Wait a minute, no, this can’t be happening. Not this quick.” So I said–I peeped, but I said– [laughter] I said, “Okay,” I went back in. I said, “Oh, my God.” I said, “I could be here all day long.” And I sat there about another two or three minutes, and I came out, I said, “I wonder if you all had the same experience that I had, that this three or four-minute meditation was like all day long.” They said, “Yeah.” We had deep–we had–we are deepening. We are deepening just by coming together and just talking. I mean, I’m not saying let the story go. I’m not saying be in the moment. I’m not saying there’s only one love. I’m just saying, “Let’s just hang out here and have a conversation, and just have a few minutes of meditation.” And we’re deepening by just coming together in a spirit of love.

Rick: That’s great. Very nice. So I’ll put your address on my website so that people can send any books that they’re, you know– in fact, I’ll send some. I’m often giveing away books that I don’t have room for on the shelf and stuff, so I’ll send you some.

Kenny: And I can take them right in, so it’s not a big deal at all.

Rick: Yeah, yeah. And there’s no rule about them having to be new books or anything? You can bring in a used book?

Kenny: Yeah, because I got caught to do whatever I wanted to do with that group.

Rick: Good. Okay, great.

Kenny: I take a stack of books in, I give them to Yolanda, and she says, you know, “E-pod” or whatever, and there it is.

Rick: Yeah. Okay. I have another friend who’s in the penitentiary up in South Dakota, and there’s some rule it has to be new books, or maybe, I guess it can be paperbacks. Anyway, we’re getting off the track.

Kenny: I did time at Sioux Falls, South Dakota, penitentiary.

Rick: Pardon?

Kenny: I did time at Sioux Falls State Penitentiary.

Rick: Oh, that’s where my friend is. Yeah, his name is Jay Ruhall, and he’s up there for some kind of bank fraud or something like that. He’s a very spiritual guy, too, but I sent him a bunch of books. Anyway, so you’re a young guy. You’re 17. You start reading in prison. You’re reading the dictionary. Let’s get back on the story.

Kenny: Okay. And I start reading Malcolm, Frantz Fanon, Eldridge Cleaver, Richard Wright. I mean, all types of books. I’m going to read all types of books. And at the same time, I meet this young Black man who’s a saxophone player, and I just love the way he–I said, “He’s my age, and he’s making this saxophone do all types of miraculous things.” I said, “Can you teach me?” So he took me and this other young guy, and he taught us how to play trumpet and saxophone. So I started learning how to play saxophone. So I’m reading, and saxophone in the band. I must say at that time, prison was a–for a young man, it was a place of growth.

Rick: Yeah, really. You had all this time to do all this constructive stuff.

Kenny: Constructive stuff, a lot of constructive stuff. And at the same time, I was still stealing in jail, and that almost got me killed.

Rick: Oh, yeah. Stealing from other inmates.

Kenny: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because they don’t play that stuff. Like, you know, “Man, how can you steal from me?” No, they don’t play that. They start running a knife in you, you know. I cut that one out quick. And so for the next two and a half years in prison, I did a lot of reading, a lot of studying. And when I got out of prison, I was out six months, and I was right back in it.

Rick: Just got back into your old habits.

Kenny: Old habits, you know, got right back into my old habits.

Rick: Did you try for a while to not get into the old habits, or you just get right back to it?

Kenny: At that time, I was in full bloom. I was young. Had plenty of energy, no fear of prison because I survived prison. So there was no fear of prison, so I thought, “Oh, I’m gone.” So I went back out hustling, thinking that I could overcome, I could beat the system. I was automatically just in it. I said, “I can beat the system.” So I went out and got back to hustling, got popped, went right back to jail. No big deal.

Rick: Did you ever, like, hurt anybody with a knife or a gun or anything like that?

Kenny: What happens is after, in prison, after over the years, it gets to the point where you’re going to have to hurt somebody. You’re just going to have to do it. And what happened was I got into a fight with my homeboys, and they got jealous because I had a good job, I was making money, and I was doing this, I was doing that. And one guy, he just decided he was going to take it upon himself to hit me in the mouth. And so when he did that, I had to retaliate, man. I had to retaliate, you know, and if you don’t retaliate in prison, it gets worse. I couldn’t allow that. So I waited two weeks until everything calmed down. Everybody forgot all about him hitting me in the mouth, and I went and did what I had to do. Now I went into his cell and I tried to bust his head open with a pipe.

Rick: Wow.

Kenny: I mean, that’s what I had to do. I didn’t have any guilt about it. I didn’t have any shame about it. I didn’t have any remorse about it. Like, okay, this is the world that I’m in. This is what I got to do in order to survive and to protect my manhood. No problem.

Rick: If I ever had to retaliate, I’d be in bad shape because I’m a scrawny little guy.

Kenny: Yeah, the scrawny guys are the most dangerous.

Rick: Yeah.

Kenny: Because once you realize you’re on your own, there’s nobody to back your pain but you, you say, “Well, I got to make a decision here,” you know. And once you’re able to do it once, then you get the confidence to build upon that. Then people realize, “Oh, don’t mess with him because

Rick: He’s crazy, he’s just going to get you.

Kenny: he’s going to retaliate.” So don’t mess with him because they don’t want to mess with nobody that’s going to retaliate. And I would retaliate silently because I read Machiavelli’s book.

Rick: Machiavelli, yeah.

Kenny: He was like the master of war, of surprise, of being in control of the enemy. And I knew I had to be able to go in, do my dirt, and get away. So I did what I had to do, went in, got away, didn’t get caught. They investigated me because they heard about, that me and him had an altercation but they couldn’t prove anything because the time frame had been so long. He could have gotten into trouble with somebody else.

Rick: So did you actually whack the guy with the pipe?

Kenny: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rick: Was he okay or pretty–?

Kenny: No, he wasn’t really okay. His head was all busted open right there and they had to do surgery on his, you know, he almost lost an eye and everything.

Rick: Wow. Well, I hope they don’t watch this interview and go come after you now.

Kenny: He’s dead.

Rick: Pardon? What did you say?

Kenny: He’s dead.

Rick: Oh, he’s dead now. So you’re in again after six months. You’re out in the streets doing your old thing again and back in jail. How long were you in the second time?

Kenny: 42 months.

Rick: That’s pretty long, yeah.

Kenny: 42 months. I got out when I was 24, 25. Got to hustling, right back to hustling.

Rick: Boy, never a second thought, huh? You never thought, “Geez, maybe I should try something different this time.”

Kenny: No, no, no, no.

Rick: Huh.

Kenny: No, I mean, I had it–you know, as a spiritual–as a college-trained physics student, when something is in motion, it tends to stay in motion. Until something stronger counteracts.

Rick: Yeah, so there’s just deep-seated habits and–

Kenny: Those habits are running.

Rick: That’s the way you’re wired.

Kenny: I’m wired. And there’s nothing to tell me–I mean, as I look back on it, that’s why I like working with the people, women in prison, because I know how they’re wired. And if we can short-circuit their wiring, we get an opportunity to have a different conversation. So I want to be able to short-circuit their wiring like Gangaji did for me. So automatically, I’m–trajectory. Hustling, hustling, hustling, hustling, hustling, hustling, hustling.

Rick: And then the second time you’re back in prison, were you back to the reading and the trumpet playing and all the constructive stuff again?

Kenny: Yeah, I was a model prisoner.

Rick: Yeah, interesting.

Kenny: I’d go back, I’d get my saxophone, I would read my book. Now, the second time I started reading sociology, communism, Democrats and Republicans and–

Rick: Political stuff.

Kenny: Political stuff, you know, so I was into that. Philosophy, Aristotle, you know, I was into that. Marxism, Leninism, you know, I was into that phase.

Rick: And so you did your 42 months or did you get paroled early?

Kenny: I got–no, no, I did my whole 42 months, got out.

Rick: Got back to hustling.

Kenny: This time I stayed out. I was out two years or something like that before I got caught up because I became very sophisticated and I was cashing checks, I was pimping. So when you become a check casher and a pimp, you’re taking yourself out of the limelight of the game. You’re on the front street.

Rick: Yeah, it’s more subtle. You’re not so easily caught.

Kenny: So you stay on the streets a little longer.

Rick: Yeah.

Kenny: So now the game is getting good to me because I’m getting successful, I’m driving cars and people are hearing about me, my name is ringing in the streets. Then I get popped. I got a lot of cases now, checks and all kinds of stuff, even a robbery case that I didn’t do. So I said, “Man, I can’t do all this.” I started counting the amount of time I could get. I freaked out. I escaped. So I sawed the bars and I escaped and got away and I stayed out an extra three and a half years.

Rick: You sawed the bars?

Kenny: Yeah, I escaped out of jail. My woman put some hacksaw blades. I was in Liberty Old County Jail in Liberty, Missouri. I sawed the bars. [humming]

Rick: Amazing.

Kenny: Yeah, and I sawed the bars. And the plan, I always said, “I got to get out. I got to escape.” Because the draw, the pull to get back to the streets was so strong. I haven’t done enough yet. I haven’t hustled hard enough yet. I haven’t pimped long enough yet. I got to get back to those streets. [laughter]

Rick: Amazing. [coughing]

Kenny: So I escaped and got back out and went right. But this time I went to Minnesota and I started hanging out with some pimps, real pimps. They said, “Listen, Slim, you can’t hustle no more. You can’t do a rough hustle. You can’t rob. You got to pimp, man.” So that’s when I really learned how to use my mind and my mouth to make money.

Rick: And in case somebody doesn’t know who’s listening to this, a pimp is basically somebody who is a front man for prostitutes, right? I mean you just organize a bunch of prostitutes and you’re their businessman, so to speak, right?

Kenny: Yeah. I always say that the Pope is a pimp. Obama, he’s pimping real good right about now. Romney’s a good pimp. You know what I’m saying? I mean that’s having people do something for you.

Rick: Yeah, yeah.

Kenny: On the street level, it’s just a basic put the women on the block.

Rick: Right.

Kenny: But whenever somebody asks somebody to go out and do something for them, you’re pimping them.

Rick: Okay, so it’s not even necessarily prostitution. You might be having somebody rob things for you or whatever.

Kenny: That’s pimping.

Rick: I see, I see.

Kenny: It’s about having somebody else go do something. You’re not doing something.

Rick: You’re a little bit removed from it.

Kenny: Removed from it.

Rick: Yeah.

Kenny: Drug dealers are pimping other drug dealers. You know what I’m saying?

Rick: Mm-hmm.

Kenny: They’re pimping.

Rick: I see.

Kenny: Talking to them, you know, macking people into doing something.

Rick: Yeah. Were you doing much drugs during all this?

Kenny: Yeah, alcohol, drugs, yeah, mainly alcohol and cocaine.

Rick: But it wasn’t that you weren’t heavy into it. It wasn’t like you were a drug addict. You were mainly a pimp and a thief and stuff.

Kenny: That was part of the lifestyle.

Rick: Right, right.

Kenny: So, okay, your woman’s out working, you know, you’re making some money, so what now? Well, you go to the after-hour club, you sit down, you snort cocaine.

Rick: Right.

Kenny: And talk to other pimps and other hoes about the game. You’re pimping. You’re playing now.

Rick: Okay. So you’re out there like three and a half years this time after having escaped, right?

Kenny: Uh-huh.

Rick: And then you got caught again, obviously.

Kenny: Yes.

Rick: Up in Minnesota.

Kenny: I got caught in Des Moines, Iowa. Went back to Missouri. I had charges there in Missouri. I did about eight months, nine months in Missouri. I got transferred to Sioux Falls, South Dakota. I did the rest of my time in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. I got back on the streets two years later after doing that, after escaping. I was back at it.

Rick: You escaped from Sioux Falls?

Kenny: No, I got out of jail for Sioux Falls. I got paroled. I got transferred from Missouri to Sioux Falls, and I got back– I got paroled from Sioux Falls to the streets.

Rick: I see.

Kenny: I’m back to hustling.

Rick: Yeah. Boy. Yeah. You’re not a — took you a while to learn things, doesn’t it, Kenny?

Kenny: I was hard-headed, man.

Rick: You were what?

Kenny: Hard-headed.

Rick: Hard-headed, yeah. That’s what I was going to say, something like that.

Kenny: I believed in my heart and soul that I could get away with it. I still had this belief that I could beat the system.

Rick: Yeah.

Kenny: I still believed that. I mean, again, there was nothing strong enough to stop me. Jail couldn’t stop me. The threat of the death penalty couldn’t stop me. You know, life imprisonment couldn’t stop me. So I needed something that was really strong to stop me in my tracks.

Rick: Yeah. And, you know, it’s a good thing we didn’t have that three strikes you’re out law around here in those days, you know?

Kenny: Jesus. [Laughter]

Rick: And so a couple more years, pimping again, whatnot, you’re back in again. This is like a repeating pattern.

Kenny: So I go right back in. Now I get out. I get paroled back into the streets. Now this is where it gets interesting.

Rick: Okay.

Kenny: I get back on the streets, and I get back with my buddies, and at this time there was a drug that was on the street called freebasing.

Rick: Oh, yeah, cocaine, a certain kind of cocaine, right?

Kenny: Yeah, where you take the cocaine in a powder form and you shake it up and make it into a rock, and you smoke it.

Rick: Right, I’ve heard of that.

Kenny: That was so–I got hooked on that drug. That drug made me want to make money to keep doing the drug. So I was hustling. I was making thousands and thousands of dollars a day cashing checks because I wanted to buy the cocaine. So I was hustling for 2 years straight doing the cocaine, and, oh, man, that was probably the worst part of my life where a drug was concerned.

Rick: Yeah.

Kenny: It took me down to a place where I had–I mean, it just dehumanized me as a human being. I had no morals. I would do anything, no scruples. I would do anything to get the drug, make the money to get the drug. And that’s when I got busted by the feds in Denver, Colorado for writing bad checks.

Rick: Writing bad checks, uh-huh.

Kenny: And then they took me back to Sioux Falls– Cedar Rapids, Iowa, where I got sentenced to 40 years for writing bad checks.

Rick: That’s right up the road from where I am, Cedar Rapids.

Kenny: That’s right. Right, and I got sentenced to 40 years there, and that was the beginning of the turnaround.

Rick: Yeah. That’s–and so–and then you went to serve out in Colorado, right?

Kenny: I served time everywhere, then, for the feds. I was in federal prison. I did time in Lewisburg Federal Prison. I did time in Taladega, Alabama. I did time in El Reno. I did time in Terra Haute, Indiana. I did time in Leavenworth. I did time in Colorado.

Rick: Why do they move people around like that?

Kenny: Well, they call it–they don’t want you to be able to–

Rick: Build up a system or a network or something?

Kenny: Network.

Rick: Yeah, okay.

Kenny: They keep moving you around, so you can’t never really build up a game.

Rick: Yeah, I see.

Kenny: Soon as they find out you have built one up, you’re gone.

Rick: Yeah. Okay, and so you say this was the beginning of the end of this pattern for you.

Kenny: Yes, yeah.

Rick: Why? Why was that?

Kenny: Because then I started–when you go to a federal prison, you’re automatically thrown into a different mindset. I’m in a mindset of billionaires, millionaires, people that are making money, all kinds of things, and you’re rubbing shoulders with them every day. A guy made $20 million cashing checks. A guy, $10 million selling drugs. Wow, whoa! And they’re sophisticated and they’re suave. I’m saying, “Wow, man, whew!” You’re just in a different mindset, and they’re reading different material. So I started playing tennis, and I started bumping into cats who had taken boats to India or to Thailand or Vietnam and filled it up with heroin or cocaine and brought it back. And while they were there, they learned how to meditate and all that kind of stuff. And they’d come back, then they’d get busted. So here they are in the penitentiary with me playing tennis, talking about, “Here, man, read this meditation book. I just dealt with this guru in Vietnam, Saigon,” some kind of way. And so this is how I was able to get into the Eastern religion was through these drug dealers, these smugglers.

Rick: Interesting. So they’re smuggling millions of dollars in heroin, and yet they’re kind of spiritual guys interested in meditation and stuff.

Kenny: Because they go to India and hang out there for–because they’re smuggling, and they’re going to hang out somewhere for a while, and they learn all this different stuff while they’re there. Go to Turkey, and they come back, what, Islam–

Rick: Sufis and whatnot, yeah.

Kenny: Sufism, stuff like that, so they’re bringing it back to prison.

Rick: Yeah, interesting.

Kenny: Isn’t that amazing, man?

Rick: Yeah, it is.

Kenny: How consciousness–this is good now–how consciousness can be a drug smuggler and bring consciousness back to the penitentiary.

Rick: Yeah.

Kenny: Because it’s all consciousness, it’s all one, but it’s amazing how it gets its truth to itself in a weird way.

Rick: Yeah, I mean, it’s not like I could have gone in there and introduced meditation or something. It’s got to come in in a way that it can come in.

Kenny: Right, and so this one cat, he says, “Man, my woman, man, she’s going to bring some Hatha yoga books in from this guru, Muktananda.” You know, in the magazine, and then we started being part of this newsletter program. This was about ’86, ’87, because he played tennis also. And so I started doing Hatha yoga. I started standing on my head. I made me a pyramid, put it up on my bed so the vortex would come up through me and–oh, man, all kind of weird stuff, man. Stuff like that. So it’s amazing, man, how it happened. Muslim brothers used to say to me all the time, “Brother, why don’t you go hang out with your little white friends that’s laying in the grass and get some chiggers and bugs all over you?” Because, you know, Muslims, they’re set up, right, they have their little bow tie, and they don’t lay in grass, they don’t sit around. And my meditators, we’d be sitting there in the grass and just meditating on our head. They used to make fun of me because I hung out with the long-haired drug smugglers, you know. But it was through those cats that the seed of freedom was planted. They just planted the seed by reading this book, reading Yogananda, you know. And I’m reading Yogananda, I’m reading all the different books, and how Yogananda went into suspended animation for 27 days before he died, and he came out of his body, and it wasn’t touched, like, “Wow!”

Rick: After he died, his body didn’t decompose after he died.

Kenny: It didn’t decompose, like, “Wow! Whoa!” You know, how they could read people’s minds, and they could walk through walls. I said, “I want that!”

Rick: Yeah, especially walking through walls, that was a good one.

Kenny: And so it was through the drug smugglers, that I was able to start reading a book about waking up, or meditation and yoga. And I got fascinated, as opposed to Christianity and Islam, I was fascinated by it because of the siddhis.

Rick: Right.

Kenny: What inmate in prison doesn’t want power?

Rick: Yeah, learn how to fly, fly out of there, whatever.

Kenny: Fly out, there you go, all that. Manifesting things, in your hand and all, the Sai Baba, you know.

Rick: Yeah. Interesting. So did you begin to meditate kind of regularly then?

Kenny: My meditation was regular until one day I was meditating, and I was meditating for about 20 or 30 minutes, and I had the most awesome, terrifying experience that if I meditated any longer, I was going to die.

Rick: Hm.

Kenny: I mean, die.

Rick: You just felt like you were going to die.

Kenny: But as you know now, that was the death of the ego.

Rick: Right.

Kenny: The ego was ready to be slain. But I could not slay it. I didn’t have the wherewithal to slay it.

Rick: Yeah, and you didn’t know what was going on. You didn’t have a teacher to say, “Okay, this is a good thing.”

Kenny: I didn’t have a guru, so I — and Yogananda, Muthunanda said, “You must have a guru to wake you.” So I started praying, “Okay.” I started praying for a guru.

Rick: Right.

Kenny: I had a dream that a guru would come to me, but I had to get out of prison and go back to prison in order to find a guru.

Rick: In the dream you knew that.

Kenny: Yeah, it was like an omen. A prophetic dream. Like a big dream.

Rick: And is that what happened?

Kenny: It happened.

Rick: Yeah, so you got out. You were paroled, I presume. You didn’t do your 40 years.

Kenny: Got out, and 13 months later I was back in prison.

Rick: Hustling again.

Kenny: Again.

Rick: Yeah.

Kenny: I got back to prison, and I got transferred to Springfield, Missouri. I met Fleet Maull down there, and Fleet Maull, he says, “When you get to Colorado Prison, look up the Buddhist guys from Trungpa Rinpoche organization.” They go into prison, meditate with them. Went up there, and I got back into meditation. Again, the tennis players, drug smugglers, here we are again. The others, I got hooked up with them again, and that’s when I met Gangaji.

Rick: Tell us about that story when you first met Gangaji.

Kenny: I met her two times.

Rick: Okay.

Kenny: I met her three times. I met her in video. I didn’t understand what the hell she was talking about. What is she talking about? What is that stuff? We were just walking away like– [laughter] What the heck is she talking about? But yet there was attraction there. Then finally, because she had a group of people that would come in and work with us and show us videos, so the Buddhists would come in and work with us as far as the teachings were concerned, the Hinayana, Mahayana, Vajrayana, and Tantra. Gangaji’s organization would come in and say–her teachings.

Rick: Right.

Kenny: So April 1994, she came in with a group of us, and that was my first time seeing her. I made a beautiful gift to give to her. I gave her the gift. It was like a little incense burner for her. I gave her the gift. She took it. In that meeting, my friend John Sherman, fellow prisoner and convict–

Rick: Oh, yeah, I’ve interviewed him.

Kenny: Wow, man. I saw him the next day, and he was totally, totally, totally transformed. When I talked to him, I said, “Man, what’s wrong with you, man? You’re different, man.” He said, “I’m in love.” I said, “Who?” He said, “I’m in love with her.” “Who her?” “Her.” That’s what he called Gangaji. He just called her “her.” “Gangaji,” I said, “You can’t love her. She’s married.” Duh. You know what I mean? Surely enough, while he had been, he had had an awakening experience. Where all he saw was love, and it was in the form of Gangaji. I knew then that I wanted whatever he had, I’d start writing her, and I would get letters from her. Just enough Shaktipat in it to– I would read the letter like– My mind would stop. Just what she said, “You are the essence of it all.” Like koans, you know? This went on for a whole summer. September 1994, she came in again. It was in the same meeting, another meeting, rather, in the same chapel, rather, same group of convicts. I was sitting right next to her, to her left. After we came out of meditation, she looked over at me and says, “Kenny, I’ve been thinking about you.” I blurted out the question, “Gangaji, Gangaji, Gangaji.” I said, “It’s my understanding that we have to die before we can receive God’s grace.” She says, “Kenny, God’s grace is here now.” I said– She said, “You think that you’re a Black man, you think that you’re a convict, you think that you’re a father of this daughter. You’re none of these things.” And as she was saying that, I was going deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper into who knows what. I just totally let go, and the rest of the meeting was a blank. I came out of the chapel, looked at her, looked at– that came in with her. I looked into her eyes, and I recognized consciousness. Even today, you’ll see us spiritual people. [Laughter] But then I was like, “Whoa!” I was like, “Are you like this always?” I don’t know what that meant, like, “Are you like this always?” I had no idea what it meant, but she understood. She says, “Yes.” I said, “Oh, my God.” I had recognized something different. I had recognized eternity. I said, “Oh, wow.” Then I turned, and I looked up at the stars. I saw beauty in nature, the twinkling stars. “Look, aren’t they beautiful?” We both looked up, and as I said in my book, “The Last Hustle,” fell into the sky. It was such a beautiful moment. There was a nature that even recognized the beauty in nature that I had never recognized before, along with the beauty in another human being. And that was, after that, Rick, I never wanted to rob or steal again. I never wanted to put women on the streets. Those thoughts and those urges come up, of course, but I never–I just don’t have the psychological energy or the wherewithal to go and to commit those types of crimes now.

Rick: Great. You got paroled again, obviously, and then when you got out, you just didn’t have the energy to do it.

Kenny: The only energy I had was to let go of the story. Now, all the energy I have after being out of prison since 1994, or having the awakening since 1994, is to share this with those people who may never, ever get to go to India, Bali, Thailand, or to Fairfield, or satsang. So, my life and work is to share this message, this gospel that’s here now, with those who will never make that trek.

Rick: Yeah. So, you’re saying that even now you occasionally have thoughts or impulses about hustling and that kind of thing, but you just dismiss them or ignore them?

Kenny: Of course.

Rick: Yeah, they still come up?

Kenny: Of course.

Rick: Huh.

Kenny: You know, this system, this body–

Rick: Yeah.

Kenny: –was trained, was conditioned to survive at the point of a gun, writing bad checks, or putting a woman on the streets. So, when survival comes up, the urge to, “Oh, I’m going to die, I’m going to starve!” “I’m going to put a woman on the street.” “Well, man, I’m too old, I can’t pimp nobody. Who’s going to listen to me?” [Laughter] You could rob a bank. Wait a minute, banks are too sophisticated these days to rob. Okay, can’t do that. Well, you know you could do this. Man, listen, all those things, keep on going. Pretty soon, you know you could get a job. Okay, then. Well, you could do this here. Okay, you could. Okay, cool. It’s like a computer that is scanning, scanning, scanning, scanning, scanning, scanning, scanning, scanning, scanning, for options. And finally says, “Well, I’ll take that option, where I can go and get in my car and go down to the hamburger joint or whatever, or social, detox center, and get a job.”

Rick: Yeah.

Kenny: And so, I don’t have a problem working, or as you say, driving a limousine.

Rick: Or whatever, yeah.

Kenny: I don’t have a problem doing that anymore. Before I had a problem doing that, because I realized getting a job, driving a limousine, is still some form of hustle to feed myself, to take care of myself. It doesn’t have to be at the point of a gun. All I want is to take care of this belly. And then put a roof over my head. It doesn’t take much for that. Then after I take care of those basic necessities, then I want to share this system with others who can do the same thing. So, you know what? I don’t have to prostitute myself. I don’t have to sell crack. I can just go out here and get me a job and be happy with the basic, basic.

Rick: Yeah.

Kenny: It seems that, so these days, are you doing some regular job in addition to going and visiting the prison and all that?

Kenny: I worked about an hour ago at a detox center in San Rafael, in Marin County. I work at Graveyard Shift, and I work with those people who try and detox off all types of drugs and alcohol.

Rick: Great. That’s a great job. I mean, since you’ve been through that yourself, you know, you can…

Kenny: I had no idea that alcoholism was the worst drug there is. I had no idea. I had no idea that my clients coming in to detox off alcohol, if we don’t monitor them, they would die of a seizure.

Rick: Yeah.

Kenny: I had no idea they would come in and the guy says, “I want my medication.” You give him his medication. I mean, I had no idea alcohol was that deadly. Heroin, cocaine, you can detox off that real quickly. Methamphetamine, you can detox. But the alcohol is something that is amazing. What alcohol does, that should be… For some people, it should be, it was totally, totally, totally bad. It should be sold by a prescription.

Rick: Yeah.

Kenny: Because I released a guy this morning from the detox, had $18 in his pocket. He came in, the police dropped him off, he slept it off. I said, “Man, you’re 50-something years old, what are you going to do?” He said, “Well, I’m going to go make me some money and I’m going to try to get my life together.” And you knew, you knew he would go on straight, make some money, go get a bottle and go unconscious. And he says, “He didn’t know who arrested him, he didn’t know where he got arrested, he didn’t know nothing.” I said– All of it was just wiped out. That memory of it was just wiped out. And he lived like that every day. I said, “How can he live like that every day?” It’s amazing to see that, it really is. When are you going to stop? How can they stop?

Rick: Yeah, it’s an interesting thing. You yourself did the same dumb thing over and over again, even though you kept getting arrested for it. We’ve all done things habitually that we’re kind of blind to what we’re doing. We just keep doing it until something, some light kind of peeps through the crack and we kind of realize how stupid it is what we’re doing. And we find a better way. But I guess the question is, how can you reach such a person?

Kenny: I mean, when they come in, I look at them, it’s just like, you know, don’t even waste your breath on this person. You know, don’t even say, “You’re loved.” So all you can do is just be kind to him. That’s all you can do. Just be kind to him. He said to me, after I dropped him out of the van, he got out, he looked over at me as if he didn’t want to leave me. Like, he kind of recognized something. Now, I noticed that he recognized something. I said, “Okay, man, take care.” And he says, “All right, man.” You know, you can see that he recognized something.

Rick: Yeah, he felt something.

Kenny: And I know what he felt because he didn’t want to leave. He wanted to hang out. But I’m on a mission. I got to go, you know, I got to do this. And I said, “Wow.” I could see that he didn’t want to be away from me.

Rick: Yeah, there’s something to that. I mean, you know, you were kind of beaming some love in his direction, which perhaps had been a very rare experience for him, you know?

Kenny: When he got out of the van, he didn’t really want to get out of the van. I said, “Man, get up out of here, man. You can’t stay in this van, man. You got to go, buddy.” He walked around. He said, “Bye.” I said– It was touching. I said, “Later, man.” He said, “Well, I’m going to go over here to Safeway and get me a donut.” You know what that means, right? I can get me a pack of cigarettes. Wait, maybe I’ll have a cigarette. Let me go get some wine. Then I’ll think about the cigarettes. You know, you see he’s about ready to kick in. Just for a moment, we recognized each other. Just for a moment. So as we’re having this conversation, you know, you’re bringing my awareness to the point fact that all I have to do at the detox center, even though I cannot get to them, is just be myself and stay present. Maybe one, I might make a connection that I don’t know, that might need to be made. I don’t know how it’s going to be made, but just stay present. You follow what I’m saying?

Rick: Yeah, absolutely. I think you’re right. I think you’re planting seeds also, and who knows when those seeds are going to sprout. Maybe five years later, some influence you had now is going to finally sprout, and the guy’s going to say, “Well, you know, maybe there’s a better way for me,” or something.

Kenny: That’s why I go to the women’s jail, and I sit down and talk to them, and be present. It’s so funny, man. I go to the jail, I do my little meditation, and I get up and I walk, and I just sit down in the midst of them, and we just sit there kicking it. You know, we’re just sitting there having a conversation. Like, I’m going to talk somewhere, and we’re just sitting there, and I talk for the next hour. And we’re not talking about anything specifically. We’re just talking about whatever comes up. And it’s amazing how we’re deepening just having a conversation. That’s what I like what Carl Rogers says. He says, “When you’re with your clients, just go there and just be present, be empty, and just be vulnerable to share what’s coming up with you.” And just in that space, which is totally antithetical, goes contrary to most therapeutic practices, because the therapist is usually, “What’s going on?” It’s over there, and you’re over there, and I’m over here, and then we can’t cross this divide. Carl Rogers is saying, “Just sit there and be human, and you’ll be amazed what comes up.” And we know when Gangaji, Adyashanti, or any other guru, yourself, myself, and Pilar, whenever we sit down and be present to our friends that’s being present, something happens. You don’t have an agenda for it to happen, just be yourself, it makes it happen.

Rick: Yeah, in fact, some gurus say that the main way that they’re having any kind of influence is just their presence, like Ramana Maharshi. It wasn’t so much the words he said, it was just sitting in his presence and kind of getting tuned in to that deeper presence.

Kenny: Right, and that’s what I saw last Monday when I was with the women. I said, “Oh, we’re–mm, mm, mm.” You know, like, you’re tuning, hitting the tuning fork. Bing! Now, all the other tuning forks, we’re tuning each other. We’re tuning ourselves to each other. So when I come in tomorrow, go in tomorrow, ah! They know the whole body, the nervous system, will say, “Ah, now we got to be in harmony or in tune or in sync with this.”

Rick: Yeah, exactly. And the tuning forks kind of get each other going more, you know.

Kenny: Right. So I’m excited about the work that I’m doing. I’ve been doing prison work since 2005, but I’m so excited in 2012, going to 2013, with the prison work, because I’m on to something now.

Rick: Yeah.

Kenny: I’m on to something that I don’t have to contort myself, you know, to do.

Rick: Do you kind of see the possibility of your prison work becoming a full-time gig?

Kenny: That’s what we’re in the process–what Pilar and I are doing now. We’re rewriting the brochure, and we’re going back to our website, revisiting our website, and redesigning it to focus on bringing dignity to women incarcerated. That’s what I’m doing right now. Because we’re seeing now if we hone in and become very specific and focused, then people can support that because I want to–right now I’m going in on Mondays. I want to go in on Tuesdays. I want to go in on Wednesdays. And Tuesdays and Wednesdays, I can go in and have smaller groups, like four or five little pods throughout the day, and then I can have individual groups where I go down, go in, and just sit and listen to the stories. Some people say, “I need a job. I need this.” I say, “Okay, I understand that, but let’s just sit here and talk for the next 30 minutes and just get somebody to talk to.” I want to have other therapists or other spiritual people to go in with me. Then I want to segue right over to having an office space or a sacred space outside of the prison wall wherever I’m at where they come out of prison, they know to go across the street or go down the street, go around the corner, walk to this sacred space because I want to have it close to that area. Like, bail bondsmen have their offices close to the jail. I want to have spiritual bail bondsman, Kenny Johnson, This Sacred Space, close to the jail.

Rick: Yeah, like a spiritual halfway house kind of thing.

Kenny: We would come in and sit down and just do rituals, do meditation, and maybe get some direction, maybe get a few dollars to put in the pocket to go whatever. But that’s what I really want. I’ve been having this vision for years, but this is the first time I feel really, really, really excited because I’m more focused now. Before, I was working with men, I was working with women, I was in county jail, I was in San Quentin I was all over the place, it was a shotgun approach. And the people that were working with me, they were really working with me for the sake of their own whatever. But now it’s like it’s me and Pilar and we’re focused.

Rick: Pilar is like your partner or something?

Kenny: Pilar is my everything.

Rick: Your girlfriend, your partner, whatever?

Kenny: She’s my heart, she’s my mind, she’s my soul, she’s my woman, she’s my very own self.

Rick: Nice. I think I’ve heard her name, but I don’t really know who she is. Maybe I’ll meet her at the S.A.N.D. conference.

Kenny: The S.A.N.D. conference, Pilar Cortez.

Rick: Okay, great.

Rick: Well, you know, you think about it, with all the billions of dollars that are spent on the prison system in this country, huge amounts of money, there should be something in the budget for somebody like you trying to do what you’re doing.

Kenny: Right. And this is how it happens. It’s through people such as you, the S.A.N.D. conference, I do a talk somewhere and people like what I’m saying, Let me contact this cat and see what he’s doing, how can I help him. Write a check for $1,000, $5,000, $10,000, whatever. And so that’s how I’ve been able to keep doing this work.

Rick: That’s great.

Kenny: Through the awakened people that get where I’m coming from.

Rick: Yeah. And there’s a donation button on your site, by the way, which I’ll be linking to your site. If people want to donate to your efforts, they can click on that and help you out.

Kenny: Thank you so much, Rick.

Rick: Sure. You know what I find fascinating in a way, it’s a little bit more of a philosophical consideration, is just how blinding maya can be, you know what I mean? It’s like we get– you were talking about those alcoholics. Essentially we’re all this pure awareness, pure truth, pure consciousness, we’re God in a human body. But isn’t it kind of fascinating how lost we can become?

Kenny: That’s maya, like you said.

Rick: It is. It’s amazing. And it’s a puzzlement in a way. I mean, I’ve certainly been there and still am to a certain extent, but boy, I mean, the depth to which one can become blinded and lost.

Kenny: God, you’re so lost. And that’s true, you can get so lost and forget who you are. But the beauty: Consciousness never gets lost. And so if Rick be running and saying, “I’m lost, I don’t– I forgot who I am, who am I, where am I, forget all that mess. I don’t want to hear that stuff. I got to pop here.” But then consciousness says, “Hey, remember me?” It’s far away. You say, “Oh.” You might see a Buddha in a– You might be riding an old raggedy car with a guy who’s your mechanic. And you’re riding down the highway, you say, “Why am I with this cat who’s got this raggedy car making noise and my mechanic?” All of a sudden you look over in the driver’s seat sitting on your Apple. He said, “Oh, this.?” And he pulls out a Buddha. I said, “What are you doing with a Buddha?” He says, “My auntie gave me this Buddha before she died.” And this Buddha been with me ever since. And I said, “Oh,” and that was like consciousness said to me, “I’m right here. Even in this situation, here.” It blew me and Pilar away.

Rick: That’s neat.

Kenny: I said, Rick, this cat had no connection to no nothing, nothing, man. No guru, no huru, no Lulu, no fu– nothing. But he had a Buddha! He said, “My auntie gave it to me before I died.” He said, “This is the most precious thing to me.” I said, “Oh, my Lord.” You know, the little red fat Buddhas.

Rick: Sure. Yeah.

Kenny: With the little thing on the back.

Rick: I think I have one shelf up here. I have one variation up on the shelf.

Kenny: I was asking myself one time. I said, I said, I said, I’d be with somebody. I said, “Why am I with these people? Why am I in this situation? Why am I doing this?” Then all of a sudden, you see a book or you see a picture that says, oh. I went to Michael me a retreat with some men. I said, “Why am I going to this men’s retreat?” I said yes to some. I don’t know why. I get to the– I get there and I’m in Pasadena, California. And we go all up these hills, the Salvation Army Retreat Center. And I get there and I put my bags down. And I’m walking around. I said, “Why am I here?” I should be back in Colorado, Boulder, Colorado doing whatever. So I walk into the hall and I look around up on the wall. And there was a picture of Ramanaa Maharshi. I said, “That’s why I’m here.” Ramana wants me here. So it’s just amazing to me that maya can take wherever she takes you, but she’s taking consciousness.

Rick: Repeat that last couple words that you cut out.

Kenny: Maya can take you anywhere. Maya does take you anywhere and everywhere. But really, maya is the friend of consciousness because she’s taking you to consciousness.

Rick: Yeah

Kenny: I got so lost in illusion, thinking I was the pimp, the hustler, to where they took me to the penitentiary, and that’s where I found consciousness.

Rick: Yeah. And that whole life you lived molded you into the kind of person who can bring consciousness to a certain kind of person, you know, with– and you have the authority and the experience and the background to relate to those people, which others wouldn’t have. And so it’s given you a kind of a qualification or a value that is priceless.

Kenny: That’s right.

Rick: Yeah. So, what do you do to renew yourself? Do you have a meditation practice? What do you do to kind of recharge your own batteries?

Kenny: Oh, going to prison, the prison work.

Rick: So really, so the prison work, so you don’t sit down and meditate or anything like that, but just doing the prison work kind of recharges you?

Kenny: You know, I don’t have a — I do meditation, but it’s not my — I do it, but it’s not my formal — my practice now is going into prison on Mondays, and just that connection lasts me or keeps me focused on love. I mean, I understand — now, you can meditate every day, you can levitate every way, but all of those things, but that’s why they have something called seva or charity or zakat, because when you’re doing — when you’re giving of yourself back to yourself, that is the greatest practice.

Rick: Yeah, very much, very true, and you mentioned several different words there. Many, many cultures have recognized this, and it kind of — you’re not giving to get, but you do get more than you receive when you give, right?

Kenny: Always get more than you could ever, ever, ever, ever give. You know, you go in and say, “Okay, well, I’m going here. I’m going to give these women a piece of my mind,” and that thing, they end up giving you a piece of your mind back to you. Tenfold. “Oh, my God, this is why I came in here today. I didn’t even see that part of myself.” So that’s why I understand zakat, why the Muslims stress zakat. It’s one of the five pillars of faith is giving back, zakat. Everyone is always saying charity and giving, seva, and I find whoever — Okay, I’m going to step on some toes now, so you ready?

Rick: Doesn’t bother me.

Kenny: I have an issue with these gurus that’s running around, these popcorn gurus running around here, you know, talking about they are that and we are that and you are that and that’s that. They are not really giving back. I don’t see the charitable programs. I don’t see helping the homeless. I don’t see feeding the foster child. I don’t see them, you know, taking care of, having so much money going to the AIDS. You see what I’m saying?

Rick: Yeah, I know. You know, Amma, of course, you’ve gone to see Amma, and I heard a story recently where one of the most famous gurus in India said he wanted to meet with her, and she said, “Do some seva first.”

Kenny: That’s right. That’s right. You know, I had to finally realize and say to myself, thank you. I kept saying, “Why is it I’m not traveling around the world, having hundreds of people bow to me and kiss my feet and all that?” I realized, no, but your job, Kenny, is just go and talk to your own. Just like Harriet Tubman, Sojourner Truth, they went back and got the slaves out of slavery. They knew the way, they knew the suffering. The same thing for you is go back and get your one, get your twos, and God will reward you for that far more than having hundreds of people kissing your feet and fanning you with peacock feathers or whatever. So I got an issue with these popcorn gurus, these cheater pimp gurus that are talking about, “Yeah, just be in the moment. God love you.” I got a problem with that, man. I got an issue with that. Because they should be supporting programs of people such as myself who are really doing it in the trenches. You follow what I’m saying?

Rick: Yeah. Well, Gangaji is a nice exception to that, right? She has done her time going into the prisons, and maybe she still does. I don’t know. But if not for her, where would you be today?

Kenny: Gangaji–that’s why I love Gangaji, because she said, “I want a prison project.” I mean, she could have had any kind. She could have had a women’s–build a women’s home, Habitat for Humanity project, you know, a Save the Whale project. You know what I’m saying? She said, “I want to go to prison.” And in the prison, she came and got a few of us prisoners. Now, I’ve written a book about my meeting with her, my life, and how it was transformed, and it’s touching thousands of people’s lives. And now I’m going back, and it’s like, “Ah, this is what you’re supposed to be doing, taking this message back to those who really would never, ever hear it.”

Rick: Yep. And from what you said, it sounds to me like there must be a lot of really receptive people in there. It’s like when they get off the streets and they’re in the prison, then their mind begins to think about deeper things.

Kenny: They’re no longer distracted.

Rick: Right, right.

Kenny: They’re not doing drugs, they’re not doing cigarettes, they’re not doing anything. So it’s like, “Why am I in here? What did I do this time?”

Rick: What’s it all about, really?

Kenny: “How can I not go back?” “Well, you need to read the Bible.” “Oh, Jesus.” Then you get jailhouse religion. The first thing you think of is jailhouse religion. “I ain’t going to do it no more. I’m sorry, Mom. I’m sorry, Dad. I ain’t going to do it no more.” That’s jailhouse religion. That lasts about five minutes. Soon as you hit the brick, the Bible’s gone, the jailhouse is gone, and the religion is gone. Back to the streets. But my understanding and my message and my focus now is real simple. I mean, you can have all these behavioral modification programs. You can have all these restorative justice programs. I’m not knocking– Those are all beautiful. They’re really quite beau– You can have yoga. You can have all that, but I’m finding just loving kindness. Basic loving kindness is all they want to know because they haven’t been loved.

Rick: Right.

Kenny: I’m just now realizing to appreciate love and to allow the love in. My nervous system is just now saying, “Well, I think I can relax 15 minutes to be hugged on.” Because you’ve been so traumatized, all those years in prison.

Rick: Yeah. You probably heard that story about the– I forget the– It’s a Hawaiian thing. I can’t pronounce it. Hawano, Pono, something or other, about the guy in the mental hospital, criminally insane mental hospital out in Hawaii, right? And he just sat in his office and flipped through the files of the various patients and just loved them. “I love you and I forgive you,” you know? And one by one, they cleared out of the place.

Kenny: And because there’s no separation between– There’s no separation in the consciousness. I can sit right here and say, “Ricky, Ricky, you are loved.” And you will feel that love thousands of miles away. The same thing applies when you walk into a jail. You sit there and it says– And just beam love. Just beam love. Just beam love. You feel that love. Say, “Oh, my God, this is the first time I’ve seen love in the manifestation of a human being or another human– or man.” And with women, it’s in the form of a man. But they haven’t seen love in a man. They’ve seen a lot of lust and anger and rage, but they haven’t seen love in a man. So it’s a, “That’s love.”

Rick: You’re probably going to have all these women falling in love with you.

Kenny: I love them. They love me. And you should see it. “Wow, look at her. Whoa, look at that.” [inaudible]

Rick: One thing I see as a possible kind of limitation is not everybody– I mean, potentially, we all have, we’re all deeply– We’re all love, you know, an ocean of it. But a lot of people just don’t have the– They’re kind of all closed down, you know, and it’s not easy for them to love. And so somebody like yourself who’s been through a lot, who’s been with Gangaji and everything, you’re at a point where your love can just flow. But not every person could go in and do what you’re doing and sit there and feel that kind of love, you know?

Kenny: Okay, now, Rick, I beg to differ.

Rick: Okay, please, yeah.

Kenny: When you’re living in the moment. There’s no separation.

Rick: Can anybody live in the moment? Like, 20 years ago when you were Mr. Hustle, you know, Mr. Pimp, could you have lived in the moment the way you can now?

Kenny: No.

Rick: So there’s some kind of development that had to take place.

Kenny: I had to meet somebody to show me the moment.

Rick: Yeah, to wake you up to that.

Kenny: Right. Once I saw the moment through my teacher’s eyes, then I started seeing it in other people’s eyes.

Rick: Yeah, so that’s what I’m saying is we need this to be contagious. We need it to spread so that more and more people can live in the moment like that and then radiate the love to others, and then we can change everything.

Kenny: That’s right, that’s right. I’m doing what I–in the most humble way I possibly can, the most gracious way, is just go in and sit and be available genuinely so they can see a genuine love and experience it. It just starts fanning–this love that’s always there starts–the flames start getting fanned.

Rick: Yeah.

Kenny: And fanned. Pretty soon it becomes a blazing, blazing, blazing, blazing inferno that consumes all that is not that.

Rick: Beautiful. And five years from now, maybe some of those women that you’re meeting with now will be doing what you’re doing.

Kenny: Doing what I’m doing. Yeah. Yeah.

Rick: Cool.

Kenny: Yes.

Rick: All righty. Well, this has been a fulfilling talk. Is there anything you feel like we haven’t covered that you’d like to say to people?

Kenny: No, no, just go to my website, This Sacred Space, support our work that we’re doing, however you feel to support it. I’m open to working individually, through groups, coming and doing satsangs. Just support the work that I’m doing with the women here in San Francisco. Everything I do out here to raise funds is to go to support the program and to expand my program now.

Rick: Yeah, so obviously anybody who has any connection with the prison system or any kind of thing like that could get in touch with you and see what comes of it.

Kenny: Right, right. And if they’ve got a connection to the bank account, that also helps.

Rick: In other words, if they can support it financially. Yeah. Are you established as a non-profit organization or anything like that?

Kenny: Yeah, I am. Number of?

Rick: Like a 501(c)(3) or something.

Kenny: Yes, yes, yes. I had to get all of that straight, so now we can take donations and become tax deductible.

Rick: Right, yeah. I’m working on accomplishing that too.

Kenny: I can send you information. Take you– Just email me. I’ll send you a form.

Rick: Okay, great. So let me just kind of wrap things up here. I’ve been talking with Kenny Johnson, who lives out on the West Coast. You’ve heard his story, so I don’t need to reiterate that. His website, which I’ll be linking to from batgap.com, is thissacredspace.org. And on there, there’s a donate button, there’s an explanation of everything he does. There’s a place where you can invite him to come and speak and so on. There’s also his physical address, which is Box 3 in Fairfax, California. And we mentioned earlier in the interview that if you have books that you’d like to donate, that he could bring into the prison, you can send those out to him. And that you probably have some kind of, I don’t know, I don’t see a newsletter people can sign up for, but they can stay in touch with you, I’m sure, if they want to. Oh, there is a subscribe thing.

Kenny: Yeah, and also people can just drop in my email.

Rick: Yeah, your contact stuff is on there.

Kenny: My phone number is on there, give me a call.

Rick: Great. Kenny will be speaking at the Science and Non-Duality Conference which we mentioned, so if you happen to be going to that, you’ll see him there. And I’ll be conducting a forum myself there with a couple of very interesting speakers, so you’ll see that in the schedule. So, in conclusion then, I’ve been, if you’d like to listen to more of these interviews, I do a new one every week, subscribe to the YouTube channel, so YouTube will notify you, or go to batgap.com and sign up for the email notification there. There’s also a discussion group that develops around each interview that becomes quite lively, and you’re free to participate in that. There is also a podcast. I just spoke to a guy the other day, he called me from Rishikesh, India, and he said that he’s been hiking up in Nepal and the Himalayas and listening to Buddha at the Gas Pump while he hikes in the Himalayas. So there’s people all over the world doing things like that. So you can listen to the audio podcast, get it on your iPod if you want. So all kinds of possibilities, and it continues to grow, as does Kenny’s beautiful mission. So thank you very much for everything you’re doing, Kenny, and for this interview, and for the love that you’re sharing with people. It’s very beautiful, and you’re really giving back.

Kenny: Yes, yes, yes.

Rick: And I’m sure that, you’re a relatively young man, and I’m sure in the course of your life many, many people are going to benefit from what you’re doing.

Kenny: Yes, thank you so much.

Rick: We’ll empty out those prisons. All right, so thank you everybody for listening or watching, and we’ll see you next week. Next week is going to be Stuart Perrin, who is a disciple of a fellow named Rudi, who died in a plane crash way back in the 70s. He had a very interesting story. I’m reading his book just now. And I think the following week we’re going to have Anita Moorjani, who had a near-death experience. She nearly died from cancer and then had this profound experience and kind of came back and went into complete remission from the cancer. She’s going to be fascinating. So stay tuned, and we’ll see you next time.